If armies swell with points changes the natural thing to do is reduce the limit. 2k is a weird standard i can remember in the UK 1500 used to be fairly normal years ago. I'v not played a 1000-1500pt game in years though, does anyone do this on the regular? how does the game play?

Not Online!!! wrote:
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.

In the case of Loyalists, taking an Armiger would cost you your Doctrines. For Chaos there doesn't seem to be an obvious downside.

 Latro_ wrote:
If armies swell with points changes the natural thing to do is reduce the limit. 2k is a weird standard i can remember in the UK 1500 used to be fairly normal years ago. I'v not played a 1000-1500pt game in years though, does anyone do this on the regular? how does the game play?

1000 feels light. 1500 is like one unit shy of how 1750 used to feel in 7th.

I think I share the opinions of many here. That continually decreasing points values isn't a good solution to the problem. Something to keep in mind, though. Games Workshop aren't going to publish a book that mostly increases the points costs of a bunch of units, because players aren't going to be as enthused to buy a book that makes their armies much worse. It just feels bad to the player. Now, I don't actually play any factions that are likely to be getting nerfed anytime soon, but I think increasing the power of some of the units that are lacklustre (especially the elites like Terminators) would be a lot better for the game than their current solution.

Darsath wrote:
I think I share the opinions of many here. That continually decreasing points values isn't a good solution to the problem. Something to keep in mind, though. Games Workshop aren't going to publish a book that mostly increases the points costs of a bunch of units, because players aren't going to be as enthused to buy a book that makes their armies much worse. It just feels bad to the player. Now, I don't actually play any factions that are likely to be getting nerfed anytime soon, but I think increasing the power of some of the units that are lacklustre (especially the elites like Terminators) would be a lot better for the game than their current solution.

But, then they will just be way to plain killy! Oh the horror, we spent so many million hours painting my mini plastic men only too lose 7/8 of them in the first turn! Oh the humanity!

 Apple Peel wrote:

Darsath wrote:
I think I share the opinions of many here. That continually decreasing points values isn't a good solution to the problem. Something to keep in mind, though. Games Workshop aren't going to publish a book that mostly increases the points costs of a bunch of units, because players aren't going to be as enthused to buy a book that makes their armies much worse. It just feels bad to the player. Now, I don't actually play any factions that are likely to be getting nerfed anytime soon, but I think increasing the power of some of the units that are lacklustre (especially the elites like Terminators) would be a lot better for the game than their current solution.

But, then they will just be way to plain killy! Oh the horror, we spent so many million hours painting my mini plastic men only too lose 7/8 of them in the first turn! Oh the humanity!

I mean, yeah, the lethality of the game at the moment is actually bad, contrary to your sarcasm. But I never said those unique rules had to be specifically in increasing offensive output. They could be simple things like T5 terminators, or AP reduction on Land Raiders.

 Ordana wrote:
Constantly pushing points down is shrinking the design space more and more.

A marine is 12 (with its bucket of special rules now), a Guardsman is 4 (should be 5) and everything in between has to fit in there.
There simply isn't going to be room left for nuance.

Armigers getting into the point territory of Dreadnoughts.

Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

Besides just design and variety, it's absolutely terrible from a gameplay perspective. The table doesn't need to be cluttered with even more models.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Besides just design and variety, it's absolutely terrible from a gameplay perspective. The table doesn't need to be cluttered with even more models.

Play at lower point limit then.

 Crimson wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Besides just design and variety, it's absolutely terrible from a gameplay perspective. The table doesn't need to be cluttered with even more models.

Play at lower point limit then.

I love to, and often do (to answer the question above, 1500 is a great size; 1600-1650 is probably about perfect in my opinion!); but whenever I go to a tournament, it's back to the ITC standard 2000 that everyone in the USA runs because they're afraid of being different from ITC.

I complain about ITC's house rules and points levels a lot, but don't get me wrong -- I love them, they're really nice guys and I love what they've done in creating an international league. Just would prefer less differentiation from 40K and lower points levels.

V

 Crimson wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

Besides just design and variety, it's absolutely terrible from a gameplay perspective. The table doesn't need to be cluttered with even more models.

Play at lower point limit then.

Oh look, useless and unsolicited advice

It's an inherent flaw in their design to leave narrative play (IE GW's preferred method to play their games) untouched from revision to revision. Notice they never change power levels until a new codex comes out.

CA is purely to make the matched play people stop complaining and buy models like people did when AOS came out with no rules, no points and no purpose.

Not to say its a bad thing, but it's an obvious strategy which limits what they can actually do in between codex releases (beyond errata).

 Kirasu wrote:
It's an inherent flaw in their design to leave narrative play (IE GW's preferred method to play their games) untouched from revision to revision. Notice they never change power levels until a new codex comes out.

CA is purely to make the matched play people stop complaining and buy models like people did when AOS came out with no rules, no points and no purpose.

Not to say its a bad thing, but it's an obvious strategy which limits what they can actually do in between codex releases (beyond errata).

That second paragraph doesn't make any sense. I'm pretty sure what you meant to say was '...stop complaining like people did when AoS came out with no points(one clause), and buy models(instead)'. The way you've written it is that people stopped complaining and bought models when sigmar was released and that is exactly the opposite of what actually happened. People started complaining and burned models.

And CA doesn't have to be whatever dystopian thing you failed to properly communicate you think it is. The general's handbook in AoS curbs the most powerful lists while pumping up some underused options pretty consistently, with no significant change to the overall size of armies

The problem isn't GW's business strategy, or some conspiracy theory about constantly shrinking armies or lizard people or whatever thing dakka thinks it is today.

The problem is that GW's 40k rules team just straight up is not as good as the team that does AoS and their reduced level of competence shows constantly.

Look at Miracle Dice vs. Destiny Dice. The Destiny Dice system is lightweight, powerful, thematic, and written in such a way that there is 0 confusion as to how it works. The Miracle Dice system is, despite being basically the exact same system, is cumbersome, clunky, less useful than it appears, and written in such a way that's impossible to be 100% sure of how exactly it works. If the weaker of the two interpretations of the rule turns out to be the correct one, it would also fail to be impactful, let alone powerful.

If you read both rules side by side, you'd be forgiven for thinking the Sister's rule was written well before the Tzeentch one.

Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

 Ordana wrote:
Constantly pushing points down is shrinking the design space more and more.

A marine is 12 (with its bucket of special rules now), a Guardsman is 4 (should be 5) and everything in between has to fit in there.
There simply isn't going to be room left for nuance.

Armigers getting into the point territory of Dreadnoughts.

Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

Ahem. They are.

The almighty, all-powerful grot is going up in points.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.

 Karhedron wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.

In the case of Loyalists, taking an Armiger would cost you your Doctrines. For Chaos there doesn't seem to be an obvious downside.

Regardless that is bad.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.

Are you sure about that? In the Podcasts they talk about several studios (40k, AoS, Boxed Games)

Waaaghbert wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.

Are you sure about that? In the Podcasts they talk about several studios (40k, AoS, Boxed Games)

I am sure as of late 7th, early 8th.

They might have re-organized in the last 24 months or so, though they didn’t hire dozens of rules developers suddenly. Did they say those studios were rules? Or also lore or even miniatures?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.

Are you sure about that? In the Podcasts they talk about several studios (40k, AoS, Boxed Games)

I am sure as of late 7th, early 8th.

They might have re-organized in the last 24 months or so, though they didn’t hire dozens of rules developers suddenly. Did they say those studios were rules? Or also lore or even miniatures?

I think it is rules. And it is what they called a "recent development" They talk about it in Episode 19 of their Stormcast Podcast http://stormcastpodcast.com/stormcast-episode-19-david-sanders

It is actually three teams now. 40k, AOS and boxed games which covers underworlds, Warhammer quest etc.
They have completely seperate teams, different rules writers - 3 in each team, different background writers, different layout designers , editors, photographers etc.
The miniatures design team still works on everything and Phil Kelly is involved with both settings but everything else is seperate.
According to the interviews the change was made at the end of last year so I'm not sure how many things made under new system have come out.

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

Actually I think GW is terrified of the bad press cycles that large companies often get when they nerf someones holy cow. For them to commit to a serious nerf it has to be something with as much public support as the changes to castelants and/or Ynnari, both of which took way too long to get in place.

 Grimgold wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

Actually I think GW is terrified of the bad press cycles that large companies often get when they nerf someones holy cow. For them to commit to a serious nerf it has to be something with as much public support as the changes to castelants and/or Ynnari, both of which took way too long to get in place.

Tbf, that could be an issue, however gw could have also taken a more proactive stance aswell, considering how tone deaf they are sometimes.

Well, they also could publish articles to go with their reasoning for their nerfs, like many big companies do. This tends to lessen the impact of the drama surrounding nerfs - and there will always be some people who will post about how [company] has ruined their game.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, they also could publish articles to go with their reasoning for their nerfs, like many big companies do. This tends to lessen the impact of the drama surrounding nerfs - and there will always be some people who will post about how [company] has ruined their game.

Aye, i'd like them to explain their reasoning aswell, especially the one of the last ca

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

all they need to do, is multiply ALL point values by 10 (or even 100) - and boom - there is magically more room for design choices.

 Chaphazar wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

all they need to do, is multiply ALL point values by 10 (or even 100) - and boom - there is magically more room for design choices.

2-3 times allready would do the trick.

2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table

 kodos wrote:
2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table

except we wouldn't be playing 2k but 4k. Or knowing GW they would be promoting 5k and players like lemmings follow it as usual.

ERJAK wrote:
Look at Miracle Dice vs. Destiny Dice. The Destiny Dice system is lightweight, powerful, thematic, and written in such a way that there is 0 confusion as to how it works. The Miracle Dice system is, despite being basically the exact same system, is cumbersome, clunky, less useful than it appears, and written in such a way that's impossible to be 100% sure of how exactly it works. If the weaker of the two interpretations of the rule turns out to be the correct one, it would also fail to be impactful, let alone powerful.

If you read both rules side by side, you'd be forgiven for thinking the Sister's rule was written well before the Tzeentch one.

What are the differences? How do each one work exactly?

tneva82 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table

except we wouldn't be playing 2k but 4k. Or knowing GW they would be promoting 5k and players like lemmings follow it as usual.

GW doesn't promote 2K.

All Most* GW matched-play events play 1750 at the moment. It's probably one of the few points where the community stubbornly refuses to follow GW and keeps insisting on moooooooaaaaar points.


* They actually also run a 1000 points tournament series.

In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?

 BoomWolf wrote:
According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?

Given half the rumors coming back to this thread started as wishlishing here, in this very thread, I'm going to say wait for previews before getting excited.

There's been a definite trend of 'confirmation' via random chan posts that happen to come up a few days or weeks after it was wishlisted here.

Personally, I'm betting chaos is getting limped along as is until it's 9th ed release with whatever else comes along side the full venom crawler kit. Points changes maybe, but I doubt too many new datasheets. That seems big enough they'd have previewed it relatively early.

 BoomWolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?

According to rumours, that already happened in Psychic Awakening 2: Faith and Fury.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...

That would mean less models needed. Ain't happening.

According to rumors, cult marines are getting 2 wounds but more expensive.

So apparently, maybe happening?

According to rumours, that already happened in Psychic Awakening 2: Faith and Fury.

that books out now yeah so surely we should have a confirm or deny?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.

I hope they scrap the God specific numbers entirely.. All 4 Daemon Lords are overpriced with those numbers. (Maybe Aetaos is fine at 999, but Zarakynel for example feels more like a 400 points model.)

Cinderspirit wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
In terms of FW points, I hope that Aetaos'Rau'Keres goes back down to 999 points. Bumping him up to 1500 points felt like a major slap in the face, especially since the other named greater daemons still kept their god-specific point levels.

I hope they scrap the God specific numbers entirely.. All 4 Daemon Lords are overpriced with those numbers. (Maybe Aetaos is fine at 999, but Zarakynel for example feels more like a 400 points model.)

I agree, it was a bad decision. While there are some truly devastating units in the FW catalog that need high pricing, I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played.

On another note, I really hope that PM don't go up in points. Considering what's been going on with the Space Marine updates, that would just add insult to injury.

My thirst is beginning to redden for leaks...

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..

When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

They could write FW models rules that synergize with main codex plastics and slap limit of max 1 to these units, and also rules that are specific enough to enable new playstyles or similar effects without synergizing well with other FW models. Then they would become non-spammable centerpieces that encourages plastic use. This is pretty simple stuff, really, but I don't think they engage much in deeper thought back at GW.
Some larger centerpiece FW model, even vehicle, could easily provide some kind of buff to some specific nearby units. Good way to control the power is to make sure the buff is strict enough and not all-encompassing and affecting all of units. But for some reason GW insists the Buff Auras must come mostly from Characters, which is kind of direct AoS loan, but this game is fundamentally different as AoS enables far more character sniping than this game. And GW also seems to insist on making extremely broad Buff Auras, which specifically has enabled broken combos earlier because buffs act as power multipliers, and multiplying power of 'trash' units is mostly still trash while multiplying power of already powerful unit is just power creep.

Utter refusal to turn even the point values free and stubborness to follow the annual point updates ensures broken stuff getting nerfs at glacial pace while too weak stuff never gets buffed.
There actually is a thing that if action is easy to do and walk back on, then there is less pressure of making the perfect choice and decision making becomes easier and faster. Or is someone seriously thinking people would angrily start walking away from GW games at this point if broken stuff is nerfed faster? C'mon, GW has to be one of the most abusive companies in the business, current rules bloat is ridiculous and exactly opposite of what was promised with new edition.

Who believed GW? It's same old company. Only thing that has really changed is PR department. They have become better at telling people what people want while doing opposite.

tneva82 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..

When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

tneva82 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..

When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

Thanks, that makes alot of sense. I still want to eventually use Samus and Uraka on the table, which works because they are priced (points-wise) quite decently.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..

When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

For counter-proof see Stompa(plastic)

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Has it actually been officially confirmed that two completely different teams look after 40k/AoS?

No. Same team. The office isn’t that large. There‘s the Specialist Game Team and the „Main“ Team. The latter is about 5 to 8 people at the core (for everything 40K, AoS, Warcry, etc..) with a „flexible Reserve“ or things like Lore writers (e.g. Phil Kelly) also contributing to rules and/or providing input.

Simple things like the 40k Minidex being a lazy copypaste of the outdated rulebook and AoS being updated with all changes from the Generals Handbooks tells me they are different teams that do not communicate nearly as much as they should.

My impression is that most of people I experienced in multiple companies so far fail to communicate with people sitting next to them. Two departments not communicating isn't really surprising, especially if they compete with each other.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight

He's talking about Knights the faction tm.

 Jidmah wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I don't understand GW's trend of treating FW models like they're some kind of precious art pieces that should never be played..

When you remember collectors are happy to buy single piece of models but not spam and that resin is cheap to make in small quantities, not in large quantities and has lower margin of profit than plastic that's automatically casted rather unlike more manual work involved resin with material that's essentially free...It makes it rather obvious why GW pushes plastic models over resin. They want those who chase good units to buy plastic as 500£ spent on plastic is worth more to GW than 500£ on resin. Meanwhile collectors aren't interested in buying 6 crimson hunter exarchs but rather buy various models instead.

It's collecting money from collectors and more casuals they would lose if they didn't make those resin models at all while making sure power players spend money on more profitable plastic.

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

For counter-proof see Stompa(plastic)

True.

Not Online!!! wrote:

He's talking about Knights the faction tm.

Even there. Have you compared Lightning Lock Moirax to normal Armigers? It's easily one of the most obvious examples of FW's pay-to-win-for-people-with-too-much-money-and-not-enough-brains target market.

9

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

For proof please see:

Fellblade, falchion, Cerberus, etc (resin/fw) points/rules

Vs

Knights (plastic) points/rules

Nuff said.

Not sure what you mean. All the FW units you named have vastly better rules than the (non-FW) Wraithknight

2 wraithknights with 5+ invul 1 suncannon 2 starcannon 862 points. 1 fellblade 917. T9 worth that much?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

2 wraithknights with 5+ invul 1 suncannon 2 starcannon 862 points. 1 fellblade 917. T9 worth that much?

Sure. Roll some theory dice or mathhammer it out. Those Wraithknights don't see any daylight there.

And while we're at it. A Moirax with Lighting Locks as 2d6 Str. 6 shots with the pseudo-Tesla rule and a 5++ for under 150 points now, where the Suncannon Wraithknight pays over 400 points for the privilege without the Tesla-rule on 6s.

That Fellblade would wreck both WKs. Not saying that proves anything, but there it is.

Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

He's talking about Knights the faction tm.

Even there. Have you compared Lightning Lock Moirax to normal Armigers? It's easily one of the most obvious examples of FW's pay-to-win-for-people-with-too-much-money-and-not-enough-brains target market.

Sure lad, nothing to do with the base amiriger beeing allready way to cheap right? RIGHT?
Also further my R&H, mates DkoK and corsair forces must be broken beyond all reasonable margins.
As must be my other mates IH, actually no wait, the IH ones are more broken? HOW COULD THAT BE?!?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:
Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.

Probably suffering from 7th as do gk for the sins of 5th.
probably.
And also because it forces those that use them just because powerfull to switch around.

Darsath wrote:
Fellblade and Wraith Knight are both pretty meh. I think it's deliberate though. Recalling to the Imperial Knights meta, it was pretty miserable to play. They probably don't want to see such a meta develop again, since it could definitely discourage players from investing heavily into the game.

Seems more like gw is discouraging fw/xenos/mega daemon low meta. Remember they nerfed those units when they started pushing IMPERIAL knights. (Ok everybody get which ones I'm talking about)?

Doesn't seem most knights are having problems.

Now we have them with spikes on.

The pre-orders are this weekend right?

Going to be a make or break weekend for me i think! I am kinda surprised we haven't seen more reliable leaks on a bigger scale as well.

Kdash wrote:
The pre-orders are this weekend right?

Going to be a make or break weekend for me i think! I am kinda surprised we haven't seen more reliable leaks on a bigger scale as well.

we also have yet to see what is going on with alot of other factions.
Orkz didn't get anything mentioner, FW also did also not show up.
We have no idea which Daemonprinces get the drop.


So in essence, the whole teaser we got did create more questions then it in a way solved.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
2 times is enough

basic Marines at 20/25 points and there is enough design space to adjust everything else

also the army size at 2000 points will fit again on a 6x4 table

except we wouldn't be playing 2k but 4k. Or knowing GW they would be promoting 5k and players like lemmings follow it as usual.

GW doesn't promote 2K.

All Most* GW matched-play events play 1750 at the moment. It's probably one of the few points where the community stubbornly refuses to follow GW and keeps insisting on moooooooaaaaar points.


* They actually also run a 1000 points tournament series.

True. I do think they also have some 2K point events, but they mostly stick with 1750.

US Tournaments used to play 1750 several years ago, but moved to 1850. We could speculate and argue all day about why they moved away from it. I get that 2K is a nice round number, but it facilitates spamming more readily and some factions can really take advantage of it (e.g. Eldar w/ 5+ Wave Serpents).

Trigger warning...

I remember the discussions we had to move from 1750 to 1850, and the main argument always was

"I have bought x times this one expensive model and it doesn't fit a well rounded list, so please increase the point level so I can use all of them"

for the same reason people now don't want to go back to smaller games.
they want to use all of their expensive models and I guess we will rather see 2500 to 3000 point tournaments in 9th than any lower point level no matter what GW suggests or the rules will say

Players don't like hard choices. They don't like to fell limited. They want to take everything. No sacrifices. Thats "anti-fun" as many people would call it.

 Galas wrote:
Players don't like hard choices. They don't like to fell limited. They want to take everything. No sacrifices. Thats "anti-fun" as many people would call it.

Which totally goes against the goal of a tournament, which should reward the guy that makes the best decisions under pressure.

But truthfully I think the more competitive crowd would just deal with it and adapt, and honestly would make the best of it. Imagine how much better flowing a 1500 point tournies would be. With less models you get less gun-lines because there is actually room to spread out again. But that is something that falls in the players lap, the issue with making everything too cheap is you lose all the granularity in the design space which means you struggle to balance units against each other.

My biggest issue with 1850 is that it is so.....uneven. I mean, yes technically it is an 'even' number, but why not just add the 150pts and make it a nice round 2000pts? 150 is nothing, like 1 maybe 2 units.

I like the progression of points in increments of 250 or 500 like this:
500 - just starting or playing a special, small ops mission
1000 - still learning/building my force
1250 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1500 - pretty much got the game down and is a nice casual level
1750 - heading into more competitive levels and wanting to add more toys
2000 - final, polished list built will all the toys. Can be competitive or casual, but "feels" like a full army

1850 is just...why?

-

 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with 1850 is that it is so.....uneven. I mean, yes technically it is an 'even' number, but why not just add the 150pts and make it a nice round 2000pts? 150 is nothing, like 1 maybe 2 units.

I like the progression of points in increments of 250 or 500 like this:
500 - just starting or playing a special, small ops mission
1000 - still learning/building my force
1250 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1500 - pretty much got the game down and is a nice casual level
1750 - heading into more competitive levels and wanting to add more toys
2000 - final, polished list built will all the toys. Can be competitive or casual, but "feels" like a full army

1850 is just...why?

-

Labels are arbitrary. Could just as easily be ...


500 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1000 - fully fledged, tight competitive army
1500 - casual army with lots of extra flab to avoid hard choices
2000 - Apocalypse and/or playing two armies simultaneously.

1750 feels like a more interesting point total to me just because I end up feeling as though I can't account for everything with it, meaning I'm choosing between screening or anti-tank or a melee presence, etc.

At 2000 I generally find that the trade offs are significantly less impactful.

That said I still like playing 2k.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with 1850 is that it is so.....uneven. I mean, yes technically it is an 'even' number, but why not just add the 150pts and make it a nice round 2000pts? 150 is nothing, like 1 maybe 2 units.

I like the progression of points in increments of 250 or 500 like this:
500 - just starting or playing a special, small ops mission
1000 - still learning/building my force
1250 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1500 - pretty much got the game down and is a nice casual level
1750 - heading into more competitive levels and wanting to add more toys
2000 - final, polished list built will all the toys. Can be competitive or casual, but "feels" like a full army

1850 is just...why?

-

Labels are arbitrary. Could just as easily be ...


500 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1000 - fully fledged, tight competitive army
1500 - casual army with lots of extra flab to avoid hard choices
2000 - Apocalypse and/or playing two armies simultaneously.

Label them what you will, the core concept is the same. Increments of 250 or 500 just make sense

I think the only reason 1850 became popular is back when you organized your army into a single FOC, people often played 1500-2000 with some 1750 thrown in as the compromise level between the 2.
But then you could take a 2nd FOC at 2000pts, which spawned the infamous 1999+1 points limts nonsense. 1850 seemed like the way to be under 2000m but without being as low as 1750 or something ridiculous like 1999+1

"Back in my day" side note, I find it assuming that there was a time in 40K in which everyone was limited to 1 FOC with only allowed 2 HQ max, 6 Troop max, and 3 Elite/Fast/Heavy MAX, then when we were allowed 2 FOCs at 2000pts, people seemed to go out of their way to limit that back to 1 FOC.

But now we can have several detachments and way more that 3 max of any battlefield roll, yet some people complain about the Ro3, which was basically the standard for over a decade AND with fewer choices. With so many more options and available detachments, Ro3 should super easy, but people want to spam for some reason

-

This is why I use power levels. No worries about any of it and all this drama about 1 point here or there.

No one cares that you guys play 1438 point level maelstrom basementhammer games. This is now pages and pages of totally off topic rambling.

 Virules wrote:
No one cares that you guys play 1438 point level maelstrom basementhammer games. This is now pages and pages of totally off topic rambling.

If something goes for "pages and pages", clearly some people actually do care.

But I agree we need to steer this back on topic. The point was that if everyones' armies are now ~250-500pts cheaper than they were at the start of 8E because CA is intent on just making things cheaper, then the standard game size should no longer be 2000, but 1500-1750.
But that won't happen because people want to keep bringing their toys that GW keeps getting them to buy by making everything cheaper.

While I am glad for 11ppm Chaos Marines and 12ppm Tacticals, I'd much rather live in a world in which both of those were 15-16ppm with 2Ws and AP-1 Bolters as standard.
That would allow for a greater granularity between other basic Troops without having to resort to bucket-loads of extra rules

-

 Galef wrote:

 Virules wrote:
No one cares that you guys play 1438 point level maelstrom basementhammer games. This is now pages and pages of totally off topic rambling.

If something goes for "pages and pages", clearly some people actually do care.

But I agree we need to steer this back on topic. The point was that if everyones' armies are now ~250-500pts cheaper than they were at the start of 8E because CA is intent on just making things cheaper, then the standard game size should no longer be 2000, but 1500-1750.
But that won't happen because people want to keep bringing their toys that GW keeps getting them to buy by making everything cheaper.

While I am glad for 11ppm Chaos Marines and 12ppm Tacticals, I'd much rather live in a world in which both of those were 15-16ppm with 2Ws and AP-1 Bolters as standard.
That would allow for a greater granularity between other basic Troops without having to resort to bucket-loads of extra rules

-

True, however, in the case of CSM, you'd still revert back to Cultists due to CP generation and how that is important for CSM.

 Galef wrote:
My biggest issue with 1850 is that it is so.....uneven. I mean, yes technically it is an 'even' number, but why not just add the 150pts and make it a nice round 2000pts? 150 is nothing, like 1 maybe 2 units.

I like the progression of points in increments of 250 or 500 like this:
500 - just starting or playing a special, small ops mission
1000 - still learning/building my force
1250 - got my "core" list and building up my knowledge
1500 - pretty much got the game down and is a nice casual level
1750 - heading into more competitive levels and wanting to add more toys
2000 - final, polished list built will all the toys. Can be competitive or casual, but "feels" like a full army

1850 is just...why?

-

For whatever reason 1750 really bothers me, like, as a number. 1800 is much cleaner to my brain. 1850 is mental nonsense though.

I always found it strange that points was a goal instead of a means to an end. If you look at ITC actions, they have made some heavy weight choices to keep the game at 2k points by increasing round length and adding chess clocks. It's not like they are protecting some standard, 2k points after this CA will be about 30% larger than 2k points at the beginning of 8th. If the combination of rules bloat and point creep continues, eventually three hour rounds will not be long enough, at which point I guess ITC will just institute 4 hour rounds. I kid, mostly, the ITC guys are not dumb, they are at least as aware of these factors, and a new ITC season seems like a wonderful time to announce a new standard points value for ITC run events.

Maybe I'm not ITCs target demo because I find three hour rounds to be awful. All of the interesting stuff happens in the first hour, and then you and your opponent spend two hours farming VP. Also imagine taking a thousand+ dollar vacation to beautiful San Diego, and not being able to do any tourist stuff because you are spending 10+ hours a day standing in a convention hall.

so at what page should I go back to find talk about CA being two books now

bfdhud wrote:
so at what page should I go back to find talk about CA being two books now

Same product, same price. The books are separated by function. Points in one, missions and new stuff in the other.

bfdhud wrote:
so at what page should I go back to find talk about CA being two books now

No need - the summary is that you get one hardcover and one softcover for the price of the previous CAs. Some people with printing background added that it takes less time to print softcovers so point adjustment might be a little more up to date, but still not new enough to react to Codexevastator Doctrine.

Sterling191 wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
so at what page should I go back to find talk about CA being two books now

Same product, same price. The books are separated by function. Points in one, missions and new stuff in the other.

Are there any indications what the '...and stuff' actually is?

The seem to be selling a points booklet and an empty hardback cover for all the talk its generated.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Virules wrote:
No one cares that you guys play 1438 point level maelstrom basementhammer games. This is now pages and pages of totally off topic rambling.

If something goes for "pages and pages", clearly some people actually do care.

But I agree we need to steer this back on topic. The point was that if everyones' armies are now ~250-500pts cheaper than they were at the start of 8E because CA is intent on just making things cheaper, then the standard game size should no longer be 2000, but 1500-1750.
But that won't happen because people want to keep bringing their toys that GW keeps getting them to buy by making everything cheaper.

While I am glad for 11ppm Chaos Marines and 12ppm Tacticals, I'd much rather live in a world in which both of those were 15-16ppm with 2Ws and AP-1 Bolters as standard.
That would allow for a greater granularity between other basic Troops without having to resort to bucket-loads of extra rules

-

True, however, in the case of CSM, you'd still revert back to Cultists due to CP generation and how that is important for CSM.

No you wouldn't, assuming Cultists stay at 5 PPM, CSM are more points-efficient at generating CP than Cultists, at 165/8 to the Cultists' 150/5. That's 20.625 points per CP to 30 points per CP. Even with 4 point Cultists they're worse for CP, at 24 points per CP.

Voss wrote:

is there any indications what the '...and stuff' actually is?

The seem to be selling a points booklet and an empty hardback cover for all the talk its generated.

That I dont have an answer for. New missions are confirmed, but not how many, nor any indication what the equivalent of the Sisters and Chaos Knight beta-dexes will be this year.

Something I have been wondering about whether we could fix the CP chaff problem with larger minimum unit sizes.
If you had to take units of 20 cultists or guardsmen, there would be a real decision to be made between them and the more elite troops - while they are more efficient, a unit of 5 CSM or scions would put less pressure on the rest of the list.

Sterling191 wrote:

bfdhud wrote:
so at what page should I go back to find talk about CA being two books now

Same product, same price. The books are separated by function. Points in one, missions and new stuff in the other.

Same as the last Generals handbook for AOS

 Galef wrote:

 Virules wrote:
No one cares that you guys play 1438 point level maelstrom basementhammer games. This is now pages and pages of totally off topic rambling.

If something goes for "pages and pages", clearly some people actually do care.

But I agree we need to steer this back on topic. The point was that if everyones' armies are now ~250-500pts cheaper than they were at the start of 8E because CA is intent on just making things cheaper, then the standard game size should no longer be 2000, but 1500-1750.
But that won't happen because people want to keep bringing their toys that GW keeps getting them to buy by making everything cheaper.

While I am glad for 11ppm Chaos Marines and 12ppm Tacticals, I'd much rather live in a world in which both of those were 15-16ppm with 2Ws and AP-1 Bolters as standard.
That would allow for a greater granularity between other basic Troops without having to resort to bucket-loads of extra rules

-

So basically you just want intercessors to be 2ppm cheaper?

(And don't give me that +1 attack, longer range crap. No one cares about their melee and tacticals special weapons options would make up for not having primaris bolters.)

 Jidmah wrote:
Something I have been wondering about whether we could fix the CP chaff problem with larger minimum unit sizes.
If you had to take units of 20 cultists or guardsmen, there would be a real decision to be made between them and the more elite troops - while they are more efficient, a unit of 5 CSM or scions would put less pressure on the rest of the list.

The issue, I think you'll find, is that GW likely views the problem as a feature. Realistically they just need to provide more varied roles so that 3 troops makes more sense as 2x10 guardsman + 5 scions instead of the all or nothing route we have now. The main issue is that what you really want to see is 10 guardsman cost the same as 5 scions AND have them be equally viable. That's a really complicated tightrope to walk.

ERJAK wrote:
So basically you just want intercessors to be 2ppm cheaper?

Kinda, but in a world in which there is no such thing as "Primaris" Marines and ALL Marines whether Tacs, Dev, Assaults, CSM, Raptors, Havocs, etc are 2W/2A base. And yes, for 2ppm cheaper because in this utopian world I am envisioning, there is no need for rules upon rules; Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines would not exist (because with 2 base attacks and AP-1 Bolters, they wouldn't be needed)
"Primaris" would just be true-scale Marines in Mark X armour

-

 Galef wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So basically you just want intercessors to be 2ppm cheaper?

Kinda, but in a world in which there is no such thing as "Primaris" Marines and ALL Marines whether Tacs, Dev, Assaults, CSM, Raptors, Havocs, etc are 2W/2A base. And yes, for 2ppm cheaper because in this utopian world I am envisioning, there is no need for rules upon rules; Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines would not exist (because with 2 base attacks and AP-1 Bolters, they wouldn't be needed)
"Primaris" would just be true-scale Marines in Mark X armour

-

I like your vision.

I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Galef wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So basically you just want intercessors to be 2ppm cheaper?

Kinda, but in a world in which there is no such thing as "Primaris" Marines and ALL Marines whether Tacs, Dev, Assaults, CSM, Raptors, Havocs, etc are 2W/2A base. And yes, for 2ppm cheaper because in this utopian world I am envisioning, there is no need for rules upon rules; Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault and Combat Doctrines would not exist (because with 2 base attacks and AP-1 Bolters, they wouldn't be needed)
"Primaris" would just be true-scale Marines in Mark X armour

I like your vision.

I like how you both want to show middle finger to people who bought more expensive models instead of clinging to old, ugly gak, and go back to single, boring monooption (bolter, bolter, or bolter) instead of having actual, interesting choices on your troops. If anything, yesterday WC photo is best reason anyone could give why belly-less dwarflets should stay W1:



Anyway, even if GW does eventually decide to shoot itself in the foot and move SM to W2, Primaris should either be moved to T5 or get 5+++, they are supposed to be significantly more durable due to new organs and even their current W2 fails to show that due to insane D2 proliferation...

 Irbis wrote:

Anyway, even if GW does eventually decide to shoot itself in the foot and move SM to W2, Primaris should either be moved to T5 or get 5+++, they are supposed to be significantly more durable due to new organs and even their current W2 fails to show that due to insane D2 proliferation...

For that very reason, Space Marines should have been S5, T5, BS/WS2+ and W2 right from the beginning

No reason why a significantly more durable, due new organs and overall genetic modification should end up the same as an Imperial Guard veteran soldier (going back when both had S/T4)

This whole thing does not work out well and if there is no significant difference between human veterans and genetic modified super soldiers (except their equipment) why should there be the same bg difference between the older and newer super soldier

 AduroT wrote:
I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

Your locals must be increadibly slow playing then, I have no problems getting through 5+ turns at a tournament at 2K.

 Imateria wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

Your locals must be increadibly slow playing then, I have no problems getting through 5+ turns at a tournament at 2K.

Think it largely comes down to what I'm playing against and that tends to be the deciding factor in a game going to time or not.

 kodos wrote:


For that very reason, Space Marines should have been S5, T5, BS/WS2+ and W2 right from the beginning

No reason why a significantly more durable, due new organs and overall genetic modification should end up the same as an Imperial Guard veteran soldier (going back when both had S/T4)

This whole thing does not work out well and if there is no significant difference between human veterans and genetic modified super soldiers (except their equipment) why should there be the same bg difference between the older and newer super soldier

I remember discussing in the beginning of 8th that the unlocking of stats over 10 could have given them so much room to play with. Make Marines T5/6 and Terminators T8/9. Lascannons could be S12 or whatever. Basically the new curve for To Wound allows them to rebalance everything rather then keep it all at the bottom of the scale and really show us that Marines are better then regular humans.

 Imateria wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

Your locals must be increadibly slow playing then, I have no problems getting through 5+ turns at a tournament at 2K.

That said, 1000 point tournaments on 4' by 4' tables and 90 minute rounds similar to how Warhammer World does it are such so much more streamable, e-sports-esque and with far less downtime. Not to mention you could play a 6 round GT on a Saturday and a 9-10 Round Major on a Saturday and Sunday with everybody comfortably back at the airport or whereever by 5 pm no problem.

 Malkyr wrote:

 kodos wrote:


For that very reason, Space Marines should have been S5, T5, BS/WS2+ and W2 right from the beginning

No reason why a significantly more durable, due new organs and overall genetic modification should end up the same as an Imperial Guard veteran soldier (going back when both had S/T4)

This whole thing does not work out well and if there is no significant difference between human veterans and genetic modified super soldiers (except their equipment) why should there be the same bg difference between the older and newer super soldier

I remember discussing in the beginning of 8th that the unlocking of stats over 10 could have given them so much room to play with. Make Marines T5/6 and Terminators T8/9. Lascannons could be S12 or whatever. Basically the new curve for To Wound allows them to rebalance everything rather then keep it all at the bottom of the scale and really show us that Marines are better then regular humans.

Sadly, the new wounding system means that as toughness and strength get even up to moderate levels, gak gets silly. There's no meaningful difference between S6 and S9 if the target is T5. There's no meaningful difference between S8 and S13 if the target is T7. And if you have a T9 target, hope you don't care if your weapon is S10 or S17....

Yeah. I don't think that'll happen.

If anything, a 9th or 10th Edition or whatever of 40K might do something similar to AoS/Apoc with the wound-roll fixed on the datasheet, possibly 2 target numbers vs. "soft-targets/infantry-equivalents" and vs. "hard-targets/vehicle-or-monster-equivalents" as the most recent Apoc did.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Malkyr wrote:

 kodos wrote:


For that very reason, Space Marines should have been S5, T5, BS/WS2+ and W2 right from the beginning

No reason why a significantly more durable, due new organs and overall genetic modification should end up the same as an Imperial Guard veteran soldier (going back when both had S/T4)

This whole thing does not work out well and if there is no significant difference between human veterans and genetic modified super soldiers (except their equipment) why should there be the same bg difference between the older and newer super soldier

I remember discussing in the beginning of 8th that the unlocking of stats over 10 could have given them so much room to play with. Make Marines T5/6 and Terminators T8/9. Lascannons could be S12 or whatever. Basically the new curve for To Wound allows them to rebalance everything rather then keep it all at the bottom of the scale and really show us that Marines are better then regular humans.

Sadly, the new wounding system means that as toughness and strength get even up to moderate levels, gak gets silly. There's no meaningful difference between S6 and S9 if the target is T5. There's no meaningful difference between S8 and S13 if the target is T7. And if you have a T9 target, hope you don't care if your weapon is S10 or S17....

Then the old wound table would come in handy, but that's a discussion for another topic.

Please, let's keep this thread for CA2019 rumours and leaks, they should come out very soon (preorders on Saturday means that a lot of content creators that will receive their advance/review copy over the next three days).

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yeah. I don't think that'll happen.

If anything, a 9th or 10th Edition or whatever of 40K might do something similar to AoS/Apoc with the wound-roll fixed on the datasheet, possibly 2 target numbers vs. "soft-targets/infantry-equivalents" and vs. "hard-targets/vehicle-or-monster-equivalents" as the most recent Apoc did.

This would be a cool thing. I’d love for that to happen, plus alternate activation, but I don’t see either happening unfortunately. Just doesn’t seem like the direction they want to take 40k.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

Your locals must be increadibly slow playing then, I have no problems getting through 5+ turns at a tournament at 2K.

Think it largely comes down to what I'm playing against and that tends to be the deciding factor in a game going to time or not.

Still sounds like slow playing, we held an ITC 2K tournament at my local this Sunday just gone and the Orks vs Orks game went all 6 turns in less than 3 hours no problem, nor did I have any time problems facing off agaisnt GSC/Nids. I find that in a tournament setting I am much more aware of the timing constraints and play faster, in casual games everything is much more relaxed and half the time can end being spent on chatting with friends so things just naturally take longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I make my locals suffer thru 1k pt tournaments. That way they actually get games finished instead of having time called on turn three.

Your locals must be increadibly slow playing then, I have no problems getting through 5+ turns at a tournament at 2K.

That said, 1000 point tournaments on 4' by 4' tables and 90 minute rounds similar to how Warhammer World does it are such so much more streamable, e-sports-esque and with far less downtime. Not to mention you could play a 6 round GT on a Saturday and a 9-10 Round Major on a Saturday and Sunday with everybody comfortably back at the airport or whereever by 5 pm no problem.

Thats not how WHW runs it's tournaments though, they're 1750 on 6x4's, and if I've got to go to Nottingham for a tournament, I don't particualrly want to spend 2 hours in the car in the morning and the same at night. I also find 4x4's really small, even when playing at 1k, it was part of the reason why my group stopped playing at the local GW store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aenar wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Malkyr wrote:

 kodos wrote:


For that very reason, Space Marines should have been S5, T5, BS/WS2+ and W2 right from the beginning

No reason why a significantly more durable, due new organs and overall genetic modification should end up the same as an Imperial Guard veteran soldier (going back when both had S/T4)

This whole thing does not work out well and if there is no significant difference between human veterans and genetic modified super soldiers (except their equipment) why should there be the same bg difference between the older and newer super soldier

I remember discussing in the beginning of 8th that the unlocking of stats over 10 could have given them so much room to play with. Make Marines T5/6 and Terminators T8/9. Lascannons could be S12 or whatever. Basically the new curve for To Wound allows them to rebalance everything rather then keep it all at the bottom of the scale and really show us that Marines are better then regular humans.

Sadly, the new wounding system means that as toughness and strength get even up to moderate levels, gak gets silly. There's no meaningful difference between S6 and S9 if the target is T5. There's no meaningful difference between S8 and S13 if the target is T7. And if you have a T9 target, hope you don't care if your weapon is S10 or S17....

Then the old wound table would come in handy, but that's a discussion for another topic.

Please, let's keep this thread for CA2019 rumours and leaks, they should come out very soon (preorders on Saturday means that a lot of content creators that will receive their advance/review copy over the next three days).

The old wound table wouldn't have been much different though, against a T8 target the difference between S10 and S17 would also be none existent, though I'd hope a weapon that warrants S17 would have suitably large enough damage output to differentiate it from a S10 weapon. In this respect I'm really liking the Apocalypse system of weapons having a fixed wound roll with split SAP/SAT stats, you don't get the problem that wound tables will innevitably have of some weapons ending up being good against everything.

As for CA, it's rather surprising just how little information we currently have, by this time last year the whole thing had pretty much been leaked, currently the only thing we know is the two short WarCom articles and info graphic GW themselves have released.

Has it been confirmed either way whether the Cult CSMs are going up to two wounds apiece in this CA?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/27/chapter-approved-2019-three-ways-to-make-your-next-club-night-awesomegw-homepage-post-4/

Next article is up. Talks about new ways to play.

Waaaghbert wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/27/chapter-approved-2019-three-ways-to-make-your-next-club-night-awesomegw-homepage-post-4/

Next article is up. Talks about new ways to play.

I got excited for a moment that they were going to revamp Match/Narrative/Open, hoping that Narrative play using Power levels might be viable somehow. Was disappointed

It's basically, "Ya know how most forms of play are organized and even? Forget all that, you can now have RANDOM units and play UNEVEN points against each other"

-

Seriously, it's like an article telling you that you can paint your army how you want, only it's telling you you can play how you want... No Sh*t

This is the type of rubbish they should be giving for free on the community site, not using as padding to justify a charged item.

Pretty lame article today.

So.. umm... what?

Here’s an idea sure to shake up your next game – Chapter Approved 2019 includes an Army Generator, a system where you can randomly generate forces in moments. Why not have everyone in your club pool their models, then randomly generate a Power Level 60 army for each?

Sure, you might be a pretty good general – but just how would you secure victory with a Land Raider, a pack of Acolyte Hybrids and an Astropath? This year’s Chapter Approved could be your chance to find out.

I'm not shy about criticizing GW for all manner of decisions that have shaped 8th ed and I think open/narrative play are pretty pointless in the way they are implemented, but in previous years they filled that space with design your own Land Raider and character rules that even if you don't belong to the majority of people playing matched play and would like something, umm, reasonably solid, you get rules and/or suggestions that are at least fun and can work if you're not into abusing the hell out of those rules.

This, though? This is just weird. and not wacky good fun weird. More like we don't even know what to do with our own game anymore weird.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Seriously, it's like an article telling you that you can paint your army how you want, only it's telling you you can play how you want... No Sh*t

This is the type of rubbish they should be giving for free on the community site, not using as padding to justify a charged item.

Pretty lame article today.

Idk my interest is piqued by the Parallel play. The idea of having a system for a larger ground battle going on while say a zone mortalis game going simultaneously and affecting each other could lead to some fun Star Wars-like battles.

Yeah, that parallel battle sounds potentially interesting.

Parralel battles are fun but don't really need a separate section for it. The other ideas are awful and lazy.

Using the phobos units to do commando raids on a shield generator etc, or orbital weapons platform. On main table, player gets orbital strike ea turn until batteries silenced. So many great ways to play 40k outside of ITC mirror missions all day long.

 Geifer wrote:
So.. umm... what?

Here’s an idea sure to shake up your next game – Chapter Approved 2019 includes an Army Generator, a system where you can randomly generate forces in moments. Why not have everyone in your club pool their models, then randomly generate a Power Level 60 army for each?

Sure, you might be a pretty good general – but just how would you secure victory with a Land Raider, a pack of Acolyte Hybrids and an Astropath? This year’s Chapter Approved could be your chance to find out.

I'm not shy about criticizing GW for all manner of decisions that have shaped 8th ed and I think open/narrative play are pretty pointless in the way they are implemented, but in previous years they filled that space with design your own Land Raider and character rules that even if you don't belong to the majority of people playing matched play and would like something, umm, reasonably solid, you get rules and/or suggestions that are at least fun and can work if you're not into abusing the hell out of those rules.

This, though? This is just weird. and not wacky good fun weird. More like we don't even know what to do with our own game anymore weird.

Honestly,in a flgs, nope.

In a tight group of friends? Ehhh probably.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Seriously, it's like an article telling you that you can paint your army how you want, only it's telling you you can play how you want... No Sh*t

This is the type of rubbish they should be giving for free on the community site, not using as padding to justify a charged item.

Pretty lame article today.

The worse in my opinion, is that type of content take place of other things a lot of people would be eager to have.

Beta-but-legal rules like stratagems, relics, warlord traits (CA17 had these, before the codexes). Changes to datasheets, new stratagems, or specialised detachments for factions without one would be better for a lot of people.

Instead they put theses rules in another books like Psychic Awakening leaving the only useful content to the point values pages.

 Galef wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/27/chapter-approved-2019-three-ways-to-make-your-next-club-night-awesomegw-homepage-post-4/

Next article is up. Talks about new ways to play.

I got excited for a moment that they were going to revamp Match/Narrative/Open, hoping that Narrative play using Power levels might be viable somehow. Was disappointed

It's basically, "Ya know how most forms of play are organized and even? Forget all that, you can now have RANDOM units and play UNEVEN points against each other"

-

Wow! Revolutionary!

I think the Army Draft looks pretty fun actually. I get a strong sense that it could lead to some very fun, off-the-wall type games which also tend to be the most memorable games.


Edit:
I bet it would pair well with the Open War cards.

Anyone who doesn't occasionally use the Open War cards is missing out on some great fun. You're robbing yourself of enjoyment.

Parallel Battles seem really cool

Galef wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/27/chapter-approved-2019-three-ways-to-make-your-next-club-night-awesomegw-homepage-post-4/

Next article is up. Talks about new ways to play.

I got excited for a moment that they were going to revamp Match/Narrative/Open, hoping that Narrative play using Power levels might be viable somehow. Was disappointed

It's basically, "Ya know how most forms of play are organized and even? Forget all that, you can now have RANDOM units and play UNEVEN points against each other"

-

war isnt fair.

I'm actually looking forward to see what else is in it.

 bullyboy wrote:
Parralel battles are fun but don't really need a separate section for it. The other ideas are awful and lazy.

Using the phobos units to do commando raids on a shield generator etc, or orbital weapons platform. On main table, player gets orbital strike ea turn until batteries silenced. So many great ways to play 40k outside of ITC mirror missions all day long.

I would think it might need a little bit of balancing how the turns go. For ever 40k Round, you play two Turns of Kill team to try and make it feel like the Kill team game is a rush/really on the clock.
That's just an idea, and honestly, I do want this to see what kind of framework they might have. Of course this reminds me of another book that came out years ago. Skies of Fire or something?
I wasn't a fan of the dogfighting supplement back in the day that required a whole other 4x4, but playing 40k on a table and having a separate kitchentableesque set up for kill team nearby might be fine ...

So is CA2019 out yet?

Waaaghbert wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/27/chapter-approved-2019-three-ways-to-make-your-next-club-night-awesomegw-homepage-post-4/

Next article is up. Talks about new ways to play.

'New,' yeah. The 1980s want their white dwarf articles back.

Even more reason for the point values not to be saddled with this junk. Anyone who wanted to do this stuff didn't need GW to sell them a book.

That content is really grasping at straws for new stuff they could fill the book with. Honestly, Voss is right. You could get this sort of content from an old White Dwarf, and for some of the ideas in it, you don't need to book at all.

 Geifer wrote:
So.. umm... what?

Here’s an idea sure to shake up your next game – Chapter Approved 2019 includes an Army Generator, a system where you can randomly generate forces in moments. Why not have everyone in your club pool their models, then randomly generate a Power Level 60 army for each?

Sure, you might be a pretty good general – but just how would you secure victory with a Land Raider, a pack of Acolyte Hybrids and an Astropath? This year’s Chapter Approved could be your chance to find out.

I'm not shy about criticizing GW for all manner of decisions that have shaped 8th ed and I think open/narrative play are pretty pointless in the way they are implemented, but in previous years they filled that space with design your own Land Raider and character rules that even if you don't belong to the majority of people playing matched play and would like something, umm, reasonably solid, you get rules and/or suggestions that are at least fun and can work if you're not into abusing the hell out of those rules.

This, though? This is just weird. and not wacky good fun weird. More like we don't even know what to do with our own game anymore weird.

This is so much better than having Legion Traits that work on my vehicles. Thanks, GW.

I've run parallel battles before, and I tried to get my community interested in a "draft" version of 40k before. The first one IS fun, the second one - no one was interested. Like at all.

Parallel battles are easy to set up. All you do is time the turns together, and set objectives that impact other games. My biggest one I ever ran had the following games going in parallel:

Table 1 (Feature Table):
- Big shield has a ton of wounds. Units inside the shield can't be harmed until the shield is brought down.
- Army inside the shield has 2000 points.
- Army outside the shield has 6000 points.

Table 2 (Missile Table):
- Two armies fight for control of an Aquila Strongpoint. Its vortex missiles can fire at targets on other tables.
- Special rule that allow infantry to assault units inside the strongpoint, and whomever has the most models inside controls it.

Table 3 (Reinforcement Table):
- As units die, they are given to a player from each team on this table. These units have to exit the battlefield off the opposite table edge.
- When units leave this table, they can arrive as reinforcements for either Table 1 or Table 2.
- All units that are being held in reserves start on this table.

Table 4 (Kill Team - High Orbit):
- Battle on a Space Hulk for command of a space cannon. No reinforcements here.
- Good for players with small collections.

I know it wasn't the same as previous editions but back at my local GW they had 1k points nights. We would show up around 6-6:30 and would be able to get a couple games in.

It just provides a different level of strategy. At 2k you can take options to deal with every situation. At 1k you have to make sacrifices. tough and medium T vehicles tend to excel a little better.

Some armies also perform a little better.

This was 4th edition at the time.

Very similar to one I ran many years ago. Big table game as normal. Side table had 3 basilisks firing on main table as other side tried to destroy them
Third table had 2 fast armies dueling. Any units escaping off opposite table edge could be added to main game as reinforcements

mhalko1 wrote:
I know it wasn't the same as previous editions but back at my local GW they had 1k points nights. We would show up around 6-6:30 and would be able to get a couple games in.

It just provides a different level of strategy. At 2k you can take options to deal with every situation. At 1k you have to make sacrifices. tough and medium T vehicles tend to excel a little better.

Some armies also perform a little better.

This was 4th edition at the time.

At the beginning of the edition Sisters were almost impossible to beat at 1k. Celestine could wipe out 600ish points in that type of game by herself.

Maybe the lack of leaks is because of a lack of content to leak...

macluvin wrote:
Maybe the lack of leaks is because of a lack of content to leak...

Certianly looks like it.

 Imateria wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Maybe the lack of leaks is because of a lack of content to leak...

Certianly looks like it.

Maybe, but with every points cost for every unit in all of 40K being in that field manual, it's just as likely they the real nuggets haven't been found by "leakers" yet.

-

 Yarium wrote:

Spoiler:

I've run parallel battles before, and I tried to get my community interested in a "draft" version of 40k before. The first one IS fun, the second one - no one was interested. Like at all.

Parallel battles are easy to set up. All you do is time the turns together, and set objectives that impact other games. My biggest one I ever ran had the following games going in parallel:

Table 1 (Feature Table):
- Big shield has a ton of wounds. Units inside the shield can't be harmed until the shield is brought down.
- Army inside the shield has 2000 points.
- Army outside the shield has 6000 points.

Table 2 (Missile Table):
- Two armies fight for control of an Aquila Strongpoint. Its vortex missiles can fire at targets on other tables.
- Special rule that allow infantry to assault units inside the strongpoint, and whomever has the most models inside controls it.

Table 3 (Reinforcement Table):
- As units die, they are given to a player from each team on this table. These units have to exit the battlefield off the opposite table edge.
- When units leave this table, they can arrive as reinforcements for either Table 1 or Table 2.
- All units that are being held in reserves start on this table.

Table 4 (Kill Team - High Orbit):
- Battle on a Space Hulk for command of a space cannon. No reinforcements here.
- Good for players with small collections

.

I've broached the subject with my group before but not enough people were interested. Now with it being official(like that matters) I might have a stronger case. it sounds fun to me at least.

 Imateria wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Maybe the lack of leaks is because of a lack of content to leak...

Certianly looks like it.

I think GW is being stubborn. From what Reece said on FLG and from the cuts they showed on the German 40k page, I think we are going to see a second year of massive points cuts across underperforming units and armies.

So I just read that chapter approved will have rules, -rules- for throwing random models on the table and playing a game! I cannot stop cracking up

Draft could be cool, if there is enough supporting rules to maintain how stratagems and such works, and how exactly do you preform the draft itself.

As for parallel battles, some people already do such stuff. Having it in CA is just making it easier for people to try such things.

Overall, just like last time, a bunch of random stuff for people who want to try something a bit different. Don't tell me "the eight" or the land raider workshop were any more value.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Draft could be cool, if there is enough supporting rules to maintain how stratagems and such works, and how exactly do you preform the draft itself.

As for parallel battles, some people already do such stuff. Having it in CA is just making it easier for people to try such things.

Overall, just like last time, a bunch of random stuff for people who want to try something a bit different. Don't tell me "the eight" or the land raider workshop were any more value.

Weren't the Eight released as like a whole unit? If I remember that correctly yeah that had absolutely zero value.

Reposting this from my Facebook page (link below).

"Hot new Chaos leaks for Chapter Approved! I haven't seen the book myself but these points are directly from a trustworthy member of the community who says he has seen the new book. These are without wargear. You'll notice some are unchanged. Also, Thunder Hammers are now 40 for Chaos characters just like for Imperials. I'm disapointed that Magnus, Mortarion, and Blightlords didn't go down but otherwise I am happy."

I'm actually interested in the challenge missions. I mean I will have to actually have to see these missions first but I like the sound of some deliberately lop-sided scenarios to offset players of different skill levels.

 Virules wrote:
Reposting this from my Facebook page (link below).

"Hot new Chaos leaks for Chapter Approved! I haven't seen the book myself but these points are directly from a trustworthy member of the community who says he has seen the new book. These are without wargear. You'll notice some are unchanged. Also, Thunder Hammers are now 40 for Chaos characters just like for Imperials. I'm disapointed that Magnus, Mortarion, and Blightlords didn't go down but otherwise I am happy."

Any info about AdMech?

Edit: read the fine print. But possessed still simply do not output enough attacks to justify any reasonable price tag... I hope terminators become awesome at that price point though

Can i repost some photos here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slimux 150
Infernal erap... 70
Kairos 250
LOC 250
LOC with sword 255
Masque 78
Keeper 210
Keeper aegis 220
Poxbringer 70
Rotigus 250
Shalaxi 220
Shalaxi aegis 230
Skarbrand 290
Skullmaster 90
Skulltaker 84
Bilepiper 60
Spoil.... 95
Sylleske 210
Bloodtrister 210


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bloodletters 7
Daemonettes 6
- Blue Horrors 5
- Pair of Brimstone Horrors 3
- Pink Horrors 7
Nurglings 18
Plaguebearers 8

Furies 7
Flesh Hounds / Gore Hounds 15/24
Hellflayer 70
Plague Drones 36
Screamers 23
Seekers 15

Lord discordant now is 150, so dont change?

Beasts of Nurgle 30
Bloodcrushers 40
Exalted Flamer 50
Fiends 37
Flamers 20

Burning Chariot 100
Exalted Seeker Chariot 70
Seeker Chariot 50
Skull Cannon 80
Soul Grinder 180
Feculent Gnarlmaws 85

Daemon Prince of Chaos 146
Daemon Prince with Wings 155

Daemonic axe 10
Hellforged sword 10
Malefic talons (one set/two sets) 0/10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Daemon Prince of Chaos 46

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

. Daemon prince only 46? Also, information of GSC please

If true Chaos Daemons will still only bother with HQ and Standard..

ImperialDwarf wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

imgur.com

zamerion wrote:

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Daemon Prince of Chaos 46

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

. Daemon prince only 46? Also, information of GSC please

146 sorry xD
Have only page with weapons
Clearance incinerator 20
Demolition charge 10
Heavy mining laser 15
Heavy seismic cannon 15
Missile launcher 10
Mortar 9

Thanks!

Tyranids just have "Units" with everything thrown together and not the normal split? Seems strange.

 Virules wrote:
Reposting this from my Facebook page (link below).

"Hot new Chaos leaks for Chapter Approved! I haven't seen the book myself but these points are directly from a trustworthy member of the community who says he has seen the new book. These are without wargear. You'll notice some are unchanged. Also, Thunder Hammers are now 40 for Chaos characters just like for Imperials. I'm disapointed that Magnus, Mortarion, and Blightlords didn't go down but otherwise I am happy."

Spoiler:

Gw said that CA will include all points, the updated and the ones that stayed the same... Wolves have 70 points land speeders without wargear buxaxaxa is this a joke?? Also
T-wolves stayed the same nice update... Well thought :p

Cinderspirit wrote:
Tyranids just have "Units" with everything thrown together and not the normal split? Seems strange.

Looks like standard way of GW treating Tyranids for the past 10 years if you ask me. Just throw everything in a bowl, shake it up, toss it on the carpet and call it an army.

Kdash wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Reposting this from my Facebook page (link below).

"Hot new Chaos leaks for Chapter Approved! I haven't seen the book myself but these points are directly from a trustworthy member of the community who says he has seen the new book. These are without wargear. You'll notice some are unchanged. Also, Thunder Hammers are now 40 for Chaos characters just like for Imperials. I'm disapointed that Magnus, Mortarion, and Blightlords didn't go down but otherwise I am happy."

Spoiler:

Cheaper GSC shooting seems nice. Mining Lasers and Seismic down 5. Heavy Mining and Clearance Incinerator down 10. Etc..

So they reduced the points cost of Impaler Cannons by 5 points, making a cancerous weapon even more cancerous. GW, why?

Cinderspirit wrote:
Tyranids just have "Units" with everything thrown together and not the normal split? Seems strange.

That's how it is in the Codex at least. Also have more than half of the units on the unseen page.... but Tyrannocytes at 50? jeez.

Rupture cannon down, acid spray down... heavy venom down...strangle cannon and regular venom down... looks like theyre making anti-armor cheaper for nids.

macluvin wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Reposting this from my Facebook page (link below).

"Hot new Chaos leaks for Chapter Approved! I haven't seen the book myself but these points are directly from a trustworthy member of the community who says he has seen the new book. These are without wargear. You'll notice some are unchanged. Also, Thunder Hammers are now 40 for Chaos characters just like for Imperials. I'm disapointed that Magnus, Mortarion, and Blightlords didn't go down but otherwise I am happy."

Spoiler:

Any Blood Angels leaks? Interested if Sanguinary Guard weapons get cheaper

Thunderwolf Cavalry not getting a drop is rough. But Wulfen seem down 5 points and Murderfang is down 45(???) points? He was arguably one of the few kick-ass Space Wolf units already.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Any Blood Angels leaks? Interested if Sanguinary Guard weapons get cheaper

Blood Angels

Chief Librarian Mephiston down 15 points to 145

Commander Dante down 25 points to 150

Gabriel Seth down 25 points to 110

The Sanguinor down 50 to 130

Death Company down 2 points to 15

Death Company Dreadnought down 10 points to 70

Elites - Death Company Intercessors are 18 - This must be a new unit, not a CP upgrade.

Furioso Dreadnought down 10 points to 60

Primaris Apothecary down 8 points to 60

Reivers down 2 points to 16

Sanguinary Ancient down 9 points to 55

Sanguinary Guard no change - Angelus Boltgun down 3 to 0

Sanguinary Novitiate down 5 points to 50

Terminator Ancient down 21 points to 87

Kdash wrote:


Yeh this set of points list is obviously completely wrong and pointless. Most of the things listed on the image are the current points

That's what they do now




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyranid changes from the image:

Terv 162 (-18)
Tox 125 (-15)
Warriors 18 (-2)
Tyrannocyte 50 (-25)
both Trygons are 10pts cheaper due to talon costs changing


Acid spray 20 (-5)
Impaler cannon 25 (-5)
Rupture cannon 35 (-14)

Any news an AdMech besides the Manipulus drop?

 xttz wrote:

Kdash wrote:


Yeh this set of points list is obviously completely wrong and pointless. Most of the things listed on the image are the current points

That's what they do now

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyranid changes from the image:

Terv 162 (-18)
Tox 125 (-15)
Warriors 18 (-2)
Tyrannocyte 50 (-25)
both Trygons are 10pts cheaper due to talon costs changing


Acid spray 20 (-5)
Impaler cannon 25 (-5)
Rupture cannon 35 (-14)

Oh i know they are printing all the points costs for everything, it's just that i feel it dishonest and wrong to post a picture of leaked changes when half of the changes aren't actually changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lash92 wrote:
Any news an AdMech besides the Manipulus drop?

Heard something in a Whatsapp group about the Disintergrator getting a 5 point increase or something. Apparently there was a picture posted somewhere but it got deleted pretty quick off the net.

Kdash wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
Any news an AdMech besides the Manipulus drop?

Heard something in a Whatsapp group about the Disintergrator getting a 5 point increase or something. Apparently there was a picture posted somewhere but it got deleted pretty quick off the net.

Can you ask for more info in Whatsapp group?

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

Any changes with DA in particular?

whilst we know people are keen to get the info, it'd be better if we avoided posting pictures of large chunks of the book from here on in.

Ta.

Changes to GSC units (aside from the ranged weapon pic we've seen above)?

Aberrants? Acolytes? Rocksaws? Kelermorph?

https://vk.com/lamppost_news?null=undefined

MistaGav wrote:

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

Any changes with DA in particular?

Based on the blurry image... Looks like pretty healthy decreases in points cost for all the named characters.

Looks like -
Asmodai 120,
Azrael - 150,
Belial - 110,
Sam Sable - 200
Sam Corvex - 140/160

Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

Nothing yet on Aeldari changes?

 Carnikang wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Tyranids just have "Units" with everything thrown together and not the normal split? Seems strange.

That's how it is in the Codex at least. Also have more than half of the units on the unseen page.... but Tyrannocytes at 50? jeez.

Rupture cannon down, acid spray down... heavy venom down...strangle cannon and regular venom down... looks like theyre making anti-armor cheaper for nids.

heavy venom, venom and stranglethorn are the same as last year, no changes.

Rupture cannon is down, but the body carrying it is not and the stupid mandatory spine weapon is still a useless 8 pt. The rupturefex still clocks at 196 pts and is therefore COMPLETELY useless, as a regular land raider has been dropped to 200 pts and sports more wounds, a better armor, better ballistic skill, move+ shoot with no penalty AND carrying capacity.

Tervigon STILL clocks at 180 pts. I mean wtf.

Tyrranocyte is 50 pts, its 5 mandatory weapons still clock it to 75 pts in the cheapest version. A drop pod is cheaper AND it can come down turn 1, which is what you really want from a transport.

No biomorph changes at all, no melee weapon points changes save for the massive talons. Adrenal glands STILL at 1 ppm when EVERY OTHER FREAKING ARMY has it as a 10 pt flat upgrade for the whole unit.

Sure we can play 125 pt toxicrenes and 138 pt trygons. It still won't be enough. If the hormagaunts haven't gone down to 4 points I will throw a fracking bollock.

The Nid treatment for the past 7-10 years is worse than insulting.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

The only thing in regards to CSM that i've seen is based on the DG list... Which is 4 point Cultists and back to 10-40 unit size.

ah 4pt cultists again, how we have missed you.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Cinderspirit wrote:
Tyranids just have "Units" with everything thrown together and not the normal split? Seems strange.

That's how it is in the Codex at least. Also have more than half of the units on the unseen page.... but Tyrannocytes at 50? jeez.

Rupture cannon down, acid spray down... heavy venom down...strangle cannon and regular venom down... looks like theyre making anti-armor cheaper for nids.

heavy venom, venom and stranglethorn are the same as last year, no changes.

Rupture cannon is down, but the body carrying it is not and the stupid mandatory spine weapon is still a useless 8 pt. The rupturefex still clocks at 196 pts and is therefore COMPLETELY useless, as a regular land raider has been dropped to 200 pts and sports more wounds, a better armor, better ballistic skill, move+ shoot with no penalty AND carrying capacity.

Tervigon STILL clocks at 180 pts. I mean wtf.

Tyrranocyte is 50 pts, its 5 mandatory weapons still clock it to 75 pts in the cheapest version. A drop pod is cheaper AND it can come down turn 1, which is what you really want from a transport.

No biomorph changes at all, no melee weapon points changes save for the massive talons. Adrenal glands STILL at 1 ppm when EVERY OTHER FREAKING ARMY has it as a 10 pt flat upgrade for the whole unit.

Sure we can play 125 pt toxicrenes and 138 pt trygons. It still won't be enough. If the hormagaunts haven't gone down to 4 points I will throw a fracking bollock.

The Nid treatment for the past 7-10 years is worse than insulting.

I already quit the army at this point, I have no time to waste on something they can't/won't fix after years

Kdash wrote:

MistaGav wrote:

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

Any changes with DA in particular?

Based on the blurry image... Looks like pretty healthy decreases in points cost for all the named characters.

Looks like -
Asmodai 120,
Azrael - 150,
Belial - 110,
Sam Sable - 200
Sam Corvex - 140/160

Thanks! Is there any other changes you can see for DA units or just those so far? Interested in the flyers and the other 'character' elite models.

ImperialDwarf wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Any Blood Angels leaks? Interested if Sanguinary Guard weapons get cheaper

Blood Angels

Chief Librarian Mephiston down 15 points to 145

Commander Dante down 25 points to 150

Gabriel Seth down 25 points to 110

The Sanguinor down 50 to 130

Death Company down 2 points to 15

Death Company Dreadnought down 10 points to 70

Elites - Death Company Intercessors are 18 - This must be a new unit, not a CP upgrade.

Furioso Dreadnought down 10 points to 60

Primaris Apothecary down 8 points to 60

Reivers down 2 points to 16

Sanguinary Ancient down 9 points to 55

Sanguinary Guard no change - Angelus Boltgun down 3 to 0

Sanguinary Novitiate down 5 points to 50

Terminator Ancient down 21 points to 87

Thanks! I’m quite happy with these, I wasn’t expecting Mephiston to go down.

MistaGav wrote:

Kdash wrote:

MistaGav wrote:

ImperialDwarf wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got photos with DA, BA, SW, Ultra, some nids, GSC, CK, DG

Any changes with DA in particular?

Based on the blurry image... Looks like pretty healthy decreases in points cost for all the named characters.

Looks like -
Asmodai 120,
Azrael - 150,
Belial - 110,
Sam Sable - 200
Sam Corvex - 140/160

Thanks! Is there any other changes you can see for DA units or just those so far? Interested in the flyers and the other 'character' elite models.

I can only see the page with the characters, heavy support and some weapons on it. Hopefully we'll get the other page uploaded by someone at somepoint.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

Nothing on FW in general sofar.



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Kdash wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

The only thing in regards to CSM that i've seen is based on the DG list... Which is 4 point Cultists and back to 10-40 unit size.

We know we get 11 pts CSM though.
From GW themselves over on the German official Facebook.

So, A rupture cannon Tyrannofex is 196 pts. It can shoot 6 shots if it stays still at BS 4+ (3 hits overall), plus 4 shots str 5 for the spine weapon.

A standard land raider is 200 pts. It can shoot 4 shots at BS 3+ (3 hits overall), and it can move + shoot with no penalty. It also has 6 shots str 5 for the heavy bolters. It also has more wounds, a better armor save AND a transport capacity. And it's not like a land raider is a competitive option or anything.

Why should we even bother at this point?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, A rupture cannon Tyrannofex is 196 pts. It can shoot 6 shots if it stays still at BS 4+ (3 hits overall), plus 4 shots str 5 for the spine weapon.

A standard land raider is 200 pts. It can shoot 4 shots at BS 3+ (3 hits overall), and it can move + shoot with no penalty. It also has 6 shots str 5 for the heavy bolters. It also has more wounds, a better armor save AND a transport capacity. And it's not like a land raider is a competitive option or anything.

Why should we even bother at this point?

Considering GW in the last CA nerfed ALL cultists including the verifyable WORSE cultists of R&H into the ground with a 25% pricehike and removal of traits are you honestly surprised that these halfe the time don't make sense?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, A rupture cannon Tyrannofex is 196 pts. It can shoot 6 shots if it stays still at BS 4+ (3 hits overall), plus 4 shots str 5 for the spine weapon.

A standard land raider is 200 pts. It can shoot 4 shots at BS 3+ (3 hits overall), and it can move + shoot with no penalty. It also has 6 shots str 5 for the heavy bolters. It also has more wounds, a better armor save AND a transport capacity. And it's not like a land raider is a competitive option or anything.

Why should we even bother at this point?

Isn't that the issue everywhere?

Chapter Master is 2 CP to give you full re-rolls in all phases. Great Harlequin is 2 CP to give you re-roll 1s in the fight phase only.

Knight Gallant is 24 wounds, 5++ with WS 2+ and 5 basic attacks for 352 points. And if you take 3 of them in a Super-Heavy you get 6 CP. Close Combat Wraithknight is 24 wounds with 5++, WS 3+ and 4 basic attacks for 375 points, and no CP bonus on the Superheavy Detachment.

Etc...,

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

Nothing on FW in general sofar.

There is a very blurry picture of GK, Inquistion, SoB and Custodes FW points costs, along with some FW weapons. But it is practically unreadable.

Kdash wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Any news on astra militrum, dkok, csm or renegades and heretics?

Nothing on FW in general sofar.

There is a very blurry picture of GK, Inquistion, SoB and Custodes FW points costs, along with some FW weapons. But it is practically unreadable.

At this point i'd really love to see a bunch of beta dexes, not going to happen but i'd really do.
Heck my group has forced me more or less to use IA13 again an albeit modified version of it but still.

If you have not such a group then good luck to have a good game with these lists.

No talk of Legends. The assumption from most people (or at least me) was that CA would have a legends section with all the old points, but the Sisters repressor is still listed, so maybe this is the last update instead?

I seem to remember Legends being mentioned as an end of this year thing but I can't find that now.

Seeing point drops everywhere, I’m curious about Orks and Necrons now

shabadoit wrote:
No talk of Legends. The assumption from most people (or at least me) was that CA would have a legends section with all the old points, but the Sisters repressor is still listed, so maybe this is the last update instead?

I seem to remember Legends being mentioned as an end of this year thing but I can't find that now.

No. They explicitly said in the new year (2020)




Also, it's a bit unclear if Legends will include OOP Forge World units like Repressors, Chaplain Dreads, etc...

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Seeing point drops everywhere, I’m curious about Orks and Necrons now

Me too, but the imgur album doesn't have them :(

I want the second part of nids, this one only covers from T to Z.

Lemondish wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Seeing point drops everywhere, I’m curious about Orks and Necrons now

Me too, but the imgur album doesn't have them :(

Yeah :/ hopefully soon they’ll get leaked (please!)

...anything at all for Thousand sons?...
almost scared to ask as I have the feeling that point drops will be for CSM and not reflect for TS
really hope I'm wrong on this

deTox91 wrote:
...anything at all for Thousand sons?...
almost scared to ask as I have the feeling that point drops will be for CSM and not reflect for TS
really hope I'm wrong on this

Considering regular csm dropped i assume that also cult marines should drop.

deTox91 wrote:
...anything at all for Thousand sons?...
almost scared to ask as I have the feeling that point drops will be for CSM and not reflect for TS
really hope I'm wrong on this

Compiled by a fan from various sources and posted on B&C.

Rubrics are still 16, but the Inferno Gun is now 0 points
Tzaangors are now up 1
The TS Daemon Princes went up (185 I think off hand from what they saw)
Land raider down 20
Rhino down 5
Predator down 5
Sorcerers now 80
Cultist to 4
Scarab Occult 26 (don't know about their guns)
Ahriman No Change
Magnus No Change
According to another source the Engines all come down 10-15 points each

All daemon engines down?
Well finnally a reason to use them then.

Not Online!!! wrote:
All daemon engines down?
Well finnally a reason to use them then.

TREMBLE at the +6" psychic powers of my Daemon Engines /s

Not Online!!! wrote:
All daemon engines down?
Well finnally a reason to use them then.

Keep in mind this is all based on other people who have seen the pages and should be approached with a bit of caution until the leaks prove otherwise. Just forwarding the information

Lemondish wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
All daemon engines down?
Well finnally a reason to use them then.

Keep in mind this is all based on other people who have seen the pages and should be approached with a bit of caution until the leaks prove otherwise. Just forwarding the information

Tbf that isn't so unlikely, considering daemonengines.

Anything on Craftworlds? Other than the CHE.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, A rupture cannon Tyrannofex is 196 pts. It can shoot 6 shots if it stays still at BS 4+ (3 hits overall), plus 4 shots str 5 for the spine weapon.

A standard land raider is 200 pts. It can shoot 4 shots at BS 3+ (3 hits overall), and it can move + shoot with no penalty. It also has 6 shots str 5 for the heavy bolters. It also has more wounds, a better armor save AND a transport capacity. And it's not like a land raider is a competitive option or anything.

Why should we even bother at this point?

Unless I'm missing something, a "standard" Land Raider is 277pts after these changes... You still have to add the wargear costs for its guns.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

shabadoit wrote:
No talk of Legends. The assumption from most people (or at least me) was that CA would have a legends section with all the old points, but the Sisters repressor is still listed, so maybe this is the last update instead?

I seem to remember Legends being mentioned as an end of this year thing but I can't find that now.

No. They explicitly said in the new year (2020)

Spoiler:

AoS Legends will be updated in 2020. 40k will be done in the next week or so:

Da Red Gobbo will be joined by other Warhammer Legends this December, alongside the release of Chapter Approved 2019, where rules for other venerable denizens of the far future whose miniatures are no longer available will find their permanent home.

IanVanCheese wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, A rupture cannon Tyrannofex is 196 pts. It can shoot 6 shots if it stays still at BS 4+ (3 hits overall), plus 4 shots str 5 for the spine weapon.

A standard land raider is 200 pts. It can shoot 4 shots at BS 3+ (3 hits overall), and it can move + shoot with no penalty. It also has 6 shots str 5 for the heavy bolters. It also has more wounds, a better armor save AND a transport capacity. And it's not like a land raider is a competitive option or anything.

Why should we even bother at this point?

Unless I'm missing something, a "standard" Land Raider is 277pts after these changes... You still have to add the wargear costs for its guns.

yep, still crap. A this point its less Land Raider and more Land Fill

All these leaks and not a single mention of any Aeldari units, comne on people!

Yeah, show me the Necrons. Crush my dreams, get it over with.

I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

it been confirmed they're a unit not a strat? that is suprising.

even if theres nothing, im waiting on IG, Custodes, and Ministorum info. hopefully there's tons of data to pick over!

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well, they do have a unit. You just build it with an Intercessor box.

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Thunderwolf Cavalry not getting a drop is rough. But Wulfen seem down 5 points and Murderfang is down 45(???) points? He was arguably one of the few kick-ass Space Wolf units already.

Isn't Cavalry being generally used in wolf lists? If yes be happy they didn't increase price


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shabadoit wrote:
No talk of Legends. The assumption from most people (or at least me) was that CA would have a legends section with all the old points, but the Sisters repressor is still listed, so maybe this is the last update instead?

I seem to remember Legends being mentioned as an end of this year thing but I can't find that now.

Isn't repressor fw model? Fw models aren't legends.

Also legends is online. Not ca.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

it been confirmed they're a unit not a strat? that is suprising.

They have point cost in ca2019 at least

Man I need to see some orks points drop or I'm going Supernova.

 Emicrania wrote:
Man I need to see some orks points drop or I'm going Supernova.

good luck, i'd be braced for increases if i were you

Orks and necron front quiet. So just my main factions. Well no rush to see bad news

 Latro_ wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Man I need to see some orks points drop or I'm going Supernova.

good luck, i'd be braced for increases if i were you

You are making an old fart like me wetting his eyes....


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feth it looks like I ll finally need to paint those BA than......

tneva82 wrote:


Isn't repressor fw model? Fw models aren't legends.

Also legends is online. Not ca.

It's all coming back to me now! The repressor is out of print, which is why I was thinking legends, rather than it being FW.

But in that cases there's still a chance things could be in CA this year (for the last time) and also be added to legends.

I didn't see if the Space Marine index only bike options were there, which may also be a clue.

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

I REALLY hope the Repressor doesn't go into legends, personally, even if it's probably one of the things most likely to go into it...

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Thank you for posting that imateria. I was about to lose it, I wanted to throttle these people saying how it's so easy to convert the intercessor death company unit.

Like how many units have we lost that were so easy to kitbash. And why is it that space marines and guard get this exception.

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Because Marines constantly get models so its less likely to consoldate any of the vastly bloated tome of loads of ever so slightly different unit variations - in fact the opposite - another reason why the exclusive unrelenting Marine model support destroys balance, the game and other factions.

Because marines = money in gw's mind.

Not realising that non investment = no consumption leads to a downward spiral.

And considering they NEEDED a wakeup call on SoB and HAVEN'T LEARNED A THING i doubt you'd get something.

Also further Chapterhouse yadda yadda, produced DE charachters, yadda yadda, means BAD EVIL DE players Yadda yadda somethig.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/chapter-approved-2019-forging-a-narrativegw-homepage-post-2/

next articel....although it basically is the same as the one yesterday ...WTF

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

*looks awkwardly at the cadian shock troops box that can make 7 different datasheet entries and is pretty much the whole of my infantry*

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Because Marines constantly get models so its less likely to consoldate any of the vastly bloated tome of loads of ever so slightly different unit variations - in fact the opposite - another reason why the exclusive unrelenting Marine model support destroys balance, the game and other factions.

I think you missed the point on this one, the complaint is that units without models are getting cut for other armies, the upset is BA got a new entry with 0 model support because it can be converted. Literally the opposite of your complaint that they get too many releases.

So was that two wound Chaos Cult Marines rumour not true then?

 Crimson wrote:
So was that two wound Chaos Cult Marines rumour not true then?

Nope
, some price cuts but you still overpay for them

Gsc stuff:

-Demo charges from 5 to 10.
-Heavy mining lasers from 25 to 15
-missile launcher from 15 to 10
-clearance incinerator from 30 to 20
-Heavy seismic cannon -10

Need some real Nids and Orks update over here...

the_scotsman wrote:
Gsc stuff:

-Demo charges from 5 to 10.
-Heavy mining lasers from 25 to 15
-missile launcher from 15 to 10
-clearance incinerator from 30 to 20
-Heavy seismic cannon -10

This was surprising, I wasn’t anticipating any adjustments this cycle. While the changes to Demo Charges is sad (my poor demo claw acolytes...) the other two are nice buffs for the Ridgerunner and Rockgrinder.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Because Marines constantly get models so its less likely to consoldate any of the vastly bloated tome of loads of ever so slightly different unit variations - in fact the opposite - another reason why the exclusive unrelenting Marine model support destroys balance, the game and other factions.

I think you missed the point on this one, the complaint is that units without models are getting cut for other armies, the upset is BA got a new entry with 0 model support because it can be converted. Literally the opposite of your complaint that they get too many releases.

Is it really a matter of conversion or paint job? I’d consider this the same as saying SW and DA get “special units with no models” because they have Wolf Lords and Masters instead of captains.

Are wolf lords in addition to captains with different rules? If not not same at all

 Strat_N8 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Gsc stuff:

-Demo charges from 5 to 10.
-Heavy mining lasers from 25 to 15
-missile launcher from 15 to 10
-clearance incinerator from 30 to 20
-Heavy seismic cannon -10

This was surprising, I wasn’t anticipating any adjustments this cycle. While the changes to Demo Charges is sad (my poor demo claw acolytes...) the other two are nice buffs for the Ridgerunner and Rockgrinder.

It does make the hml an even bigger auto take on the ridgerunner, but hopefully we see more adjustments. All we have is the range weapons page - no unit costs or melee weapons.

The demo adjustment is for bikes - I can attest to how silly 5 demo charges with +1 to hit and wound can be from bikes. But I do hope we see maybe a single point drop on the bike body, suicide demo charge is the only way to use them.


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tneva82 wrote:
Are wolf lords in addition to captains with different rules? If not not same at all

No iirc they're basically identical. They even used to just be "use the captain profile" in the index.

 Crimson wrote:
So was that two wound Chaos Cult Marines rumour not true then?

No. (Which should've been obvious when that particular rumour migrated from it's origin for a Black Templar vs. Emperor's Children battle box to Psychic Awakening 2 before finally latching onto Chapter Approved rumours).

 Imateria wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

They had Vet stats too didn't they? Or did I imagine that?

...so far im not seeing any point changes to Custodes. am i reading this wrong?

also for a moment i freaked because it looked like multi-melta had a drop, but then i realized im probably looking at the GSC section and got a little sad.

Looks like some interesting drops for chaos demons though with a few increases, but im wondering if the sheer amount of point drops in other areas make up for the increases...

waiting on more notes, including further clarification on custodes and IG.

Friend sent me this. Not sure if this is legit:

Asurmen -25
Bikes -5
Cronos -5
Eldrad +10
Falcons -10
Fire Prism -15
Foot Locks -10
Hellions -2
Hemlock -20
Raider 0
Reapers -3
Shadowseer -15
Shining Spears -4
Sky Locks -5
Spiritseers -10
Starweaver -19
Talos +18
Troupe Master -5
Venoms -10
Voidweavers -13
Vypers -2
Wracks 0
Warp Spiders -1
Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5


Dark Lances -5
Disintegrators 0
Neuro Disruptor -5

Lol. Venoms down in points?

That'd be nice.

What about Harlequin troupes? The 9>7 error on the web graphic has me curious.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Friend sent me this. Not sure if this is legit:

Warp Spiders -1
Eldrad +10
Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Falcons -10
Vypers -2
Foot Locks -10
Sky Locks -5
Spiritseers -10
Asurmen -25
Hemlock -20
Prism -15
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5
Reapers -3
Shining Spears -4
Talos +18
Cronos -5
Venoms -10
Shadowseer -15
Troupe Master -5
Bikes -5
Voidweavers -13
Starweaver -19

Can you get AdMech points please?

ImperialDwarf wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Friend sent me this. Not sure if this is legit:

Warp Spiders -1
Eldrad +10
Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Falcons -10
Vypers -2
Foot Locks -10
Sky Locks -5
Spiritseers -10
Asurmen -25
Hemlock -20
Prism -15
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5
Reapers -3
Shining Spears -4
Talos +18
Cronos -5
Venoms -10
Shadowseer -15
Troupe Master -5
Bikes -5
Voidweavers -13
Starweaver -19

Can you get AdMech points please?

Imperial Guard, too?