You brought an example of realigning datasheets that existed in multiple versions in various publications, but the most updated intercessor datasheet had already been publicated elsewhere.
Never before CA has changed a specific rule or a profile. That is what FAQs are for.
That statement would mean more if there were more than two copies of CA. This is GW, it's not going to remain that way forever, sooner or later CA will have lots of stuff in it that it's not "supposed" to have.
Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Tiberius501 wrote: For the love of god, stahp. The constant derailing of threads into whinging about marines getting more than the other factions is getting so old. We know. Let’s move on, please. This has been going on for like 5 pages now.
There's no new credible PA leaks. If there are I'll update the OP and title. Feel free to ignore the thread if you have nothing constructive to add. No one is going to stop because you're demanding it unless you're a mod. I'd say it just shows how much the community has been upset by the marine treatment myself. Hopefully GW are listening.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
They've largely been a lot better about RAW in 8th. Some of it has been a little clunky, but its nice to see them adapting things like rerolls to make them interact with modifiers better.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
They've largely been a lot better about RAW in 8th. Some of it has been a little clunky, but its nice to see them adapting things like rerolls to make them interact with modifiers better.
they litterally condescended the players in the salamanders faq.
Though the Stratagem
in question is being played ‘rules as written’, on this
occasion it is clearly not something we ever intended.
this is what i was refering to, how were we supposed to know what they wrote was CLEARLY not what they meant....
And then theres this
Some fiendish combinations we had not spotted
are possible in order to reliably inflict far more mortal
wounds than were ever intended
This shows how disconnected they are from what a game's rules should be.
I doubt those leaks to be honest, the reputable French guys have denied them so I don't think they're credible.
PA will focus on legends which GW think is a gift when it is actually a slap in the face. It's been stated this is at least one focus of the book in the red gobbo release article.
Grimgold wrote: So what is going on with chapter approved, we are two to three weeks away from it's street date and have not heard a peep out of GW.
Someone's frantically going through every copy with a sharpie to fix the marine points.
"Moar Interns! Those points ain't gonna to reduce themselves!" ~ Some Git at GW, Maybe
It came out on Dec 8th of last year, so it's coming out on the 7th or 14th of this year, that means tomorrow for the announcement you can Pre-order it on black Friday, which means they should have been talking about it this week. Did it get bumped so we could have 3 PAs before year end?
I mean, if the rumors are true I wouldn't mind 2 wound Plague Marines if the points cost was fairly competitive. Honestly though, I would be happy to have the 2 attacks that Plague Marines had in previous editions. Would make using all those nice melee weapons options on the sprue worth while.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
Com'on man don't leave us hanging like that, which one?
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).
Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).
Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.
Store "WAAC" has a consistent 30 players per week, all with 2K point armies.
Store "Funzies" Has about four players per week, most with between 1500-1000 point armies.
Trying to get a game for fun here is about as easy as fist fighting an ork while being an 80 year old imperial citizen.
I don’t thinking losing an arm in a fight counts as an easy victory
I’ve had a thought recently given all these rumors combined with wondering what rules content we are getting in this CA. Could we be getting a non-“9th edition” rules preview for Single Codex armies ala the Codex previews for Index armies in CA2017? That would explain the Mechanicus rumor and five pages of rules content for the book.
Tiberius501 wrote: For the love of god, stahp. The constant derailing of threads into whinging about marines getting more than the other factions is getting so old. We know. Let’s move on, please. This has been going on for like 5 pages now.
You'll find there's two problems with this. The first is that we hav ebeen desperately short on any kind of rumours for CA this year, the other is that most of those we have got are related to Marines. Kind of hard not to get people complaining about them when it's the only thing we're given to talk about at the exclusion of all else.
alextroy wrote: I don’t thinking losing an arm in a fight counts as an easy victory
They never said victory; they said it was hard to fist fight an Ork which is patently untrue. It's remarkably easy to fight an Ork. They'll fight anything with essentially zero provocation. Surviving the fight is another matter entirely...
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).
Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.
For some reason a nicely balanced and consolidated rule set scares the casual players.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I see we're on to the part in the narrative where the fact that Space Marines of all types that weren't Deathwatch had sub-40% winrates for months is swept under the rug.
Indeed. People like to gloss over that fact.
The fact that marines came back so strong really rustled some people's jimmies to an extent its all they ever talk about. Marines had no viable builds as a vanilla force unless it included Guilliman - as it was painfully obvious marines were balanced around him.
Now that the supplaments and Codex v2 are here, I'm hoping every army gets a similar boost (because by golly some desperately need it!) but the constant diriding of marines, Marine players and the rules is beginning to be an all consuming force on DakkaDakka, and just makes for boring discussion.
Bit of an oversimplification there isn't it? It isn't that they are mad marines are suddenly super viable, instead they are mad that marines HAD a viable build even if it was only G-Man. They absolutely did need a buff, but vanilla marines had a viable build and the non-vanilla ones who actually do have the worst winrates didn't get anything. Marines can't be shoehorned into a single competitive build, but other armies have been repeatedly nerfed out of the competitive scene even if that's their only viable build. Combine this with the fact that we had 3 straight months of marinesturbation and yeah people are going to resent marine players who think they are the only ones who had to go months without a strong competitive list. Especially when GW has a terrible track record for balancing/releasing anything that isn't Imperial this edition.
From a more positive perspective, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people on dakka are much more positive in person and dakka provides a nice place to scream into the void. Just like how marine players spammed dakka for months on how weak marines were, people are going to spam dakka as marines are buffed for months on end. Of course people are going to complain if the once a year point adjustments dictate that months of marine dominance will turn into a year of dominance with no end in sight. This is no different from "lol Castellans are don't need point adjustments" that happened last year.
this "ohh it's that marines had a viable build, if you used a single LOW, but the other marine chapters didn't" arguement falls flat when you look at who the majority of the complainers are. the people whining all UNIVERSALLY xenos players. and no Marine players don't think they're the only ones who had to go ages without anything more then a single list (if that) the differance is marine players don't take it as a personal insult when someone else gets a good release.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
They've largely been a lot better about RAW in 8th. Some of it has been a little clunky, but its nice to see them adapting things like rerolls to make them interact with modifiers better.
they litterally condescended the players in the salamanders faq.
Though the Stratagem
in question is being played ‘rules as written’, on this
occasion it is clearly not something we ever intended.
this is what i was refering to, how were we supposed to know what they wrote was CLEARLY not what they meant....
And then theres this
Some fiendish combinations we had not spotted
are possible in order to reliably inflict far more mortal
wounds than were ever intended
This shows how disconnected they are from what a game's rules should be.
This was directed at those whom are specifically breaking the game. I've played the 18th for the entire edition and it would never even find a way into any games I play.
ITC should just come out with their own points costs and fixed stratagems.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).
Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.
For some reason a nicely balanced and consolidated rule set scares the casual players.
No, it doesn't. We know that they can't balance their game worth a damn. Look at Cultists. 1 Build was making them OP, so they just Nuked the unit to the point it wasn't even playable. That's not fixing it, that's knee-jerking.
Consideirng they also nerfed R&H cultists at the same time, mind you a cultist but worse, the same way, that is no longer knee jerking, that is stupidity.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I see we're on to the part in the narrative where the fact that Space Marines of all types that weren't Deathwatch had sub-40% winrates for months is swept under the rug.
Indeed. People like to gloss over that fact.
The fact that marines came back so strong really rustled some people's jimmies to an extent its all they ever talk about. Marines had no viable builds as a vanilla force unless it included Guilliman - as it was painfully obvious marines were balanced around him.
Now that the supplaments and Codex v2 are here, I'm hoping every army gets a similar boost (because by golly some desperately need it!) but the constant diriding of marines, Marine players and the rules is beginning to be an all consuming force on DakkaDakka, and just makes for boring discussion.
Bit of an oversimplification there isn't it? It isn't that they are mad marines are suddenly super viable, instead they are mad that marines HAD a viable build even if it was only G-Man. They absolutely did need a buff, but vanilla marines had a viable build and the non-vanilla ones who actually do have the worst winrates didn't get anything. Marines can't be shoehorned into a single competitive build, but other armies have been repeatedly nerfed out of the competitive scene even if that's their only viable build. Combine this with the fact that we had 3 straight months of marinesturbation and yeah people are going to resent marine players who think they are the only ones who had to go months without a strong competitive list. Especially when GW has a terrible track record for balancing/releasing anything that isn't Imperial this edition.
From a more positive perspective, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people on dakka are much more positive in person and dakka provides a nice place to scream into the void. Just like how marine players spammed dakka for months on how weak marines were, people are going to spam dakka as marines are buffed for months on end. Of course people are going to complain if the once a year point adjustments dictate that months of marine dominance will turn into a year of dominance with no end in sight. This is no different from "lol Castellans are don't need point adjustments" that happened last year.
this "ohh it's that marines had a viable build, if you used a single LOW, but the other marine chapters didn't" arguement falls flat when you look at who the majority of the complainers are. the people whining all UNIVERSALLY xenos players. and no Marine players don't think they're the only ones who had to go ages without anything more then a single list (if that) the differance is marine players don't take it as a personal insult when someone else gets a good release.
AS A MARINE PLAYER (in bold becuase certain people ignore or perhaps choose to forget this) - lets not forget that Marines are constantly getting models from BOTH GW and FW - all the fething time. We may not want or like them and some of pretend they somehow don't count because they are not defined as the exclusive to particular sub-sub faction they play but we get them - all the time.
Rules vary more - but Marines dominated the 8th ed list at the begining and exclusively marine players linned up to say "wait your turn" to everyone else - then they have got not jst a new Codex but an entire slew of supplements and then the second and likely future Campaign books devoted manily to Marines of all different colours.
Meanwhile there is no sign or indeed likelhood of a single Supplement for a Sept, Craftworld, Dynasty, Cult, Kabal, Hive Fleet, Order or Regiment.
Thats why people not solely devoted to just Marines are annoyed.
and no Marine players don't think they're the only ones who had to go ages without anything more then a single list (if that) the differance is marine players don't take it as a personal insult when someone else gets a good release.
The most meta ironic statement I have read in a while. Is this a joke?
Although I do not believe this rumor about Marines going lower in points I would like to mention that if the rumor is true it could be only that none 2.0 marines are getting point changes as DA, Blood Angels, SW, and GK aren't really in a good spot right now. So if somebody were to say that Marines were getting a point drop then I wouldn't be surprised if certain marine factions, who are underperforming, would get a point drop.
When it comes to point drops, they might just lower (almost) everything like they did last year. So nobody gets hit with a huge point hike, but some units get bigger cuts than others.
And everyone has to buy more models to field the same number of points as before.
Which works as long as you have room to differentiate similar units without going into fractional points. Which we are already at.
IMHO they should just double all the points, make 3k the new 1,500, and have room to have cultists, grots, conscripts, and guardsmen at (theoretically) correct point levels.
But I’d put money on the fact that suddenly everyone is going to have room for a new unit in their old lists once CA19 drops.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I see we're on to the part in the narrative where the fact that Space Marines of all types that weren't Deathwatch had sub-40% winrates for months is swept under the rug.
This is simply a lie. Ultras had above 50%, for example and just off the top of my head.
I don't think "lie" means what you seem to think it means. It's enough to say that I was incorrect and misremembering, which I was; Ultramarines did indeed manage to break 50% win rate a few months. I think, however, that we were talking past each other: I was looking at "Space Marines of all types" at a Codex level, while you were looking at a Chapter Tactic level. I can't find a single month this year when Codex: Space Marines had an above 50% win rate, although it is admittedly not as bad as I first claimed. Still closer to 40% than 50% most of the months since February.
Also, a lot of Ultramarine winning was with G-man. If you aren't using him Ultramarines are significantly less competitive. I mean, they still do fairly well (I play them) but relying on a crutch does not make a "good" army.
A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.
Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.
People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.
Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.
If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.
How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.
Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.
AngryAngel80 wrote: A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.
Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.
People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.
Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.
If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.
How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.
Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.
So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.
The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.
It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?
I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.
I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).
Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.
For some reason a nicely balanced and consolidated rule set scares the casual players.
No, it doesn't. We know that they can't balance their game worth a damn. Look at Cultists. 1 Build was making them OP, so they just Nuked the unit to the point it wasn't even playable. That's not fixing it, that's knee-jerking.
...and therefore we shouldn't ask for them to try harder? I don't get your point.
cuda1179 wrote: So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.
Well, that is one of the benchmark miracles people are waiting to see. If GW's efforts manages to significantly raise/buff the rock-bottom army of the meta ladder, that's only a good sign for every other army above them. Right now it feels like GKs are still paying for their 5ed sins...Though since GKs don't actually/even get Primaris models for GW to push consumers to buy...that miracle hail mary buff for GKs - is at least twice the improbability....
AngryAngel80 wrote: A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.
Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.
People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.
Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.
If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.
How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.
Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.
Sigh. You were being fairly reasonable up until the end, and then the tinfoil hat came out.
All the vitriol is pointless, even that directed at the designers.
If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.
However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.
There is blame to be given, but I'd really rather we have it on the only people who can fix the problem, which is the designers. Ideally I'd love to not have any anger and just have them actually fix it but for that to happen they'd need some unified idea of how to balance the books and design them together. As is they seem to have the most off the wall design process where no one knows what each other is doing and it honestly feels so backward for such a large company, especially when all the products are made to interact together in some form of balance.
Outside that, I'd just love them to come right out on the community site and tell the players. " None of our stuff is made to be balanced, if it ends up so it's a happy coincidence but you'll just need to deal with dramatic imbalance. " Something clean, concise and honest, if that is what they are doing. I promise I'd never comment on the imbalances and poor state of things sometimes if they said that as I'd not expect it. As is the closest they come is random interviews found here and there where they hint to that but never directly say it. It's the lack of clarity in their purpose and drive that I think makes some people a little bothered. As we end up with issues, like this, where we fight over it.
" Yes they are good, get over it. " " They are op " " When will we get our stuff ? " No one wants to feel like they are ignored, and GW has done that for many. As the books keep coming if only Marines get significant buffs and others get meh stuff, it would tend to just twist the knife further. All I'd ask is we not blame each other and just agree we'd like a rising tide to raise all boats as it were. Not every codex will be gold, but neither should some just be polished turds either, there should be some parity even if you need to work harder to win.
cuda1179 wrote: So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.
Well, that is one of the benchmark miracles people are waiting to see. If GW's efforts manages to significantly raise/buff the rock-bottom army of the meta ladder, that's only a good sign for every other army above them. Right now it feels like GKs are still paying for their 5ed sins...Though since GKs don't actually/even get Primaris models for GW to push consumers to buy...that miracle hail mary buff for GKs - is at least twice the improbability....
Hypothetically, I can see GK getting a new codex at some point. If they do I think they might get a primaris unit (GK special unit, or some standard box with an amazing accessory sprue) plus the vehicles. It's either that or they will be left in a forgotten corner like an abused red-headed stepchild.
GK apparently get more than most out of PA because GW are well aware that they are underperforming. According to the guys at Frontline the same will happen to most underperforming factions (they’ll get more stuff out of PA). Take it as you want, it might be sales speak.
Despite all the negativity around them I have seen a few mono GK lists make the top 4 and even win tournaments. It’s not like it’s impossible.
Once again: forget about any faction getting a new Codex anytime soon.
The usual French source wrote a couple of weeks ago that until June 2020 there won’t be any new Codex (excluding Sisters in January-February), just Psychic Awakening books for the announced factions.
Then, in June we’re apparently getting a new edition which is going to be like 8.5, with consolidated rules and minor changes (no alternating activations), and the current codices will still be valid.
Between this Chapter Approved, the remaining Psychic Awakening books and the big spring FAQs lies the hope of getting a balanced game.
My guess is that CA will only touch points and MAYBE a datasheet or two, but any rules change will happen in PA books or FAQs.
As for the remaining rumours from that source:
- SW vs Orks is going to be either PA4 or the starter set for the new 8.5 edition in the summer (this rumour has been going back and forth on the internet too much)
- new upcoming models: Ghazghkull Thraka for Orks, Illuminor Szeras for Necrons
ps: I’m not French myself, my mobile phone carrier is and it displays a French flag here for some reason
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
I mean it's good to have hope, but some armies, like say CSM, should have had their buffed codex already then and with sisters looking to be not exactly space marine level I'd be very surprised if we see parity in codex powers even in the 9th edition.
Though I will say, until sisters drop and we get actual game play with all the new units and synergies etc I'll refrain from judgement on power level of the army. On paper it doesn't look to be as strong though.
I'd say other marine factions should have some hope however with their rules in PA if BT and BA turn out well served in the books rules wise.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.
I'm definitly fed up with having to look for rules in many different sources. Codex, Erratas, FW Index, Erratas, BRB, BigFAQ, CA and now PA books or even Codex Supplements, ignoring campaign books like Vigilus.
It's almost like playing DnD 3.5 again.
Aenar wrote: I'm definitly fed up with having to look for rules in many different sources. Codex, Erratas, FW Index, Erratas, BRB, BigFAQ, CA and now PA books or even Codex Supplements, ignoring campaign books like Vigilus.
It's almost like playing DnD 3.5 again.
CSM alone have 5 rulessources , without their corresponding FAQ's and CA. Which would catapult that to 11 differing rules sources. (of course not all are needed of these (codex 2.0 removes the need for dex one not even Shadowspear due to WL traits for psykers beeing stuck in the booklet.)
Spoiler:
i don't know what's sader, having 10 releases and other chaos factions get nothing at all (cough R&H cough DG, COUGH TS) or the fact that after 10 releases the core issues of the faction didn't get solved)
An Actual Englishman wrote: GK apparently get more than most out of PA because GW are well aware that they are underperforming. According to the guys at Frontline the same will happen to most underperforming factions (they’ll get more stuff out of PA). Take it as you want, it might be sales speak.
Despite all the negativity around them I have seen a few mono GK lists make the top 4 and even win tournaments. It’s not like it’s impossible.
balmong7 wrote: Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.
Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.
What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.
I wasn't talking about a min-maxing perspective. The second round of rumors (that is almost certainly fake) said that shield drones would lose their FNP against mortal wounds. Savior protocols deals mortal wounds. This means that savior protocols would instantly kill the shield drone, you know, that model that only exists to tank wounds and has no other abilities. There would literally be no strategic reason to take shield drones over gun drones even without a point increase because the shield drone would offer no benefit. At least a gun drone gets to shoot in the shooting phase before it instantly dies to savior protocols. They are basically saying "Hey remember how we had to add a FNP to shield drones during the index to make them viable, then removed it in the codex and had to FAQ it again. Then removed it in kill team and had to FAQ it again? We decided we didn't like that change despite implementing it 3 times."
But again, I think this rumor has been debunked so it doesn't matter.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.
Very true, I'm honestly right now not sure if I'm going to buy the PA book any time soon because of this. Also, I'm sick and tired of DG and TS getting absolutely none of the new CSM stuff. None of the new daemon engines, models like obliterators, no MoP, no new infantry weapons, no new stratagems, no new relics, nothing. This is especially bad for TS as that army is horrendously underdeveloped. At least DG has some cool elites and HQ units and some effective and unique daemon engines.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.
"I'm sick of buying new codices" is the sentiment that produces stuff like codex space marines 8th edition 2.0 sadly :(
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
the only reason I doubt a complete lack of new codices until June is because Blood ofg the Pheonix really does feel like the typical thing GW puts out a few months before the factions involved get a new codex.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
Then the only logical conclusion we can draw is that Space Marines will be extremely weak in 9th, by virtue of being the first codex released, just like in 8th.
So maybe this couple of months being the top dog is the only thing they'll have going for them. We shouldn't be that mad, after 2 years of only Gorillaman being competitive...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.
AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.
It was less "codex power" and more "codex design philosophy".
An Actual Englishman wrote: Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.
Then the only logical conclusion we can draw is that Space Marines will be extremely weak in 9th, by virtue of being the first codex released, just like in 8th.
So maybe this couple of months being the top dog is the only thing they'll have going for them. We shouldn't be that mad, after 2 years of only Gorillaman being competitive...
Nah, they'll just probably be out of the top 3 for a year at most. SM have never been and never will be "extremely weak". It's just that most SM players feel like their army is absolute trash unless it's one of the 2-3 top tier armies. As a SW player I'm satisfied with my codex and the current state of my army while I'm sure that for many SM players SW are pure garbage at the moment.
Summer next year is a long time away, I strongly doubt that all we will be getting is piecemeal releases of factions until that time. I would say there should be at least one decent release after Sisters before 9th drops. I don't know if this will be the launch of the Gravis armour line for Primaris or something else, but I think GW will need to dump something fairly substantial between February and June. I don't see necrons or Tau needing anything major (mostly plastic lines already, same with Deathwatch...they just need access to new minis that already exist).
Deathguard, Tzeentch and harlies (if harlies are getting anything more than what was in Blood of the Phoenix...i.e. access to Ynnari) are doubtful too. One of the things I could see as a big release for GW would involve either Dark Angels (Gravis Deathwing intro) or new Fallen faction models. Could we get another primarch in the Lion? Perhaps (maybe the culmination of the psychic awakening....him waking up).
Other candidate I guess would be a Gravis/Grey Knight Primaris line vs daemons.
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.
AngryAngel80 wrote: If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.
However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.
.
'Attacking each other' and 'holding them to account' are unrelated concepts, that's the tinfoil part (yelling on the internet and design criticism aren't a zero sum game). I'd love to see less of the former, but unity and division have jack-squat to do with the customers of a game of toy soldiers- this isn't a political movement.
Their PR division wants to convince people to buy their products... If you think there's more to it than that, I don't know what to tell you.
Burnage wrote: We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.
Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.
When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?
They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.
Burnage wrote: We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.
Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.
A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.
Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.
None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.
Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.
GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.
Kanluwen wrote: When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?
They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.
If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot. Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.
Kanluwen wrote: When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?
They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.
If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot.
Cool ad hominem, bro.
Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.
Your post:
bullyboy wrote:Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.
The problem with your post is that you seemed to treat the "6 additional marine supplements" as "actual model releases".
They weren't. It was a purposeful drawing out of what could have been a fairly quick release. We saw almost as much stuff come out with the Ossiarch release as the entirety of the Marines release, yet it wasn't drawn across three flipping months.
The other problem, of course, is that you also seem to be treating the supplements as "additional codices". They aren't. They're lacking all of the unit profiles one would need to actually field an army--although I guess you can exclude Ultramarines from that as they had some signature units in their book that nobody else had.
You need to read it again, nothing about the codex was related to model releases. Simply that you have to count them as codex releases (to counter other post about limited codex releases).
They still require printing time, production etc. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.
bullyboy wrote: You need to read it again, nothing about the codex was related to model releases. Simply that you have to count them as cidex releases (to counter other post about limited codex releases).
They still require printing time, production etc. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.
Okay, so is White Dwarf a Codex?
Telling people to "read it again" because they find your argument to be fallacious isn't going to suddenly change their mind. You're conflating things together to shift goalposts and when called out on it, you've resorted to name-calling and acting like people "just don't understand!".
For the record though? Raven Guard supplement was printed by a company called "Artron" in China, the main codex by "C&C" in China.
They could have released these things together if orders were submitted and ready by the same time.
GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.
Honestly, I've always assumed if they did up points to make balance work out better, they'd just bump the cap they operate at. There's no real difference at playing a 4k game if the points have doubled, but it would mean the difference between a guardsman and a conscript could be made clear.
That said, competitive comp will never even be broached if ITC is driving the play testing unless someone has a knife out for a particular build.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.
A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.
Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.
None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.
Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.
GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.
Players are largely at fault for this. For a long time, GW routinely played at a smaller points level than a lot of tournaments and non-competitive groups. 1500 vs 2000, and it makes a big difference.
If people choose to play bigger games, that has little to do with the rules and a lot on their own preferences. The game doesn't mandate any such thing.
Kanluwen wrote: When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?
They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.
If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot. Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.
You seem to be regarding the supplements as indavidual codexes. They are not, they are supplements, they are add ons to the Codex: Space Marine without which you could not run a Raven Guard, Ultramarine etc... army.
We have had 3 main codexes released this year (Space Marines, GSC and Chaos Knights), an update so minor if you already had the previous codex you didn't even need it (CSM) and a release limited to a boxset (Sisters).
I do agree with you that I find it very hard to believe that GW will, between Summer 2019 and Summer 2020 have a grand total of 2 major releases for 40K though, even if one of those (Space Marines) has been needlesly spread out over 4 months. Even at the back end of 7th, when they'd effectively given up on the edition, we had a lot more come out than that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.
However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.
.
'Attacking each other' and 'holding them to account' are unrelated concepts, that's the tinfoil part (yelling on the internet and design criticism aren't a zero sum game). I'd love to see less of the former, but unity and division have jack-squat to do with the customers of a game of toy soldiers- this isn't a political movement.
Their PR division wants to convince people to buy their products... If you think there's more to it than that, I don't know what to tell you.
If you get " political movement " out of my words, I think maybe you're reading unintended things into my words. If you can't see that us blaming each other for being beardy power gamers for why the system doesn't work over agreement the company needs to do better in codex parity is working at cross purposes, I don't think we see the same problems.
Unity has everything to do with public sentiment and only in unity to demand a quality effort can change be at the least really pressed for. It is never a promise, as the company can just do what it wants but a happy customer is good and an angry base is bad especially when everyone is on the same page. Company PR doesn't just want to sell you models, they want also to keep the company in a positive image as that is also good for sales for customer satisfaction, yet again, if you don't understand that, I don't know what I could tell you either. Spin is common place for any kind of PR to minimize mistakes, pump hype and over inflate success. While that does impact sales it also has other benefits.
Darsath wrote: It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...
I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.
Darsath wrote: It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...
I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.
Given Suppressors don't have a full kit and neither does the venom crawler, I'm guessing we'll be seeing new releases and codexes for both space marines and chaos within the next year or two. But frankly, if we're hitting the end of an edition and have relatively limited other content these supplements make a whole lot of sense, great way to sell a whole bunch of marines without having to make new ones and you could always axe the rule bloat first thing next edition.
So, enjoy your riot boys. I expect people to keep complaining regardless of what we get, but frankly we all know the reason so many of us have space marine armies. It's nice to have something that gets releases.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: So, enjoy your riot boys. I expect people to keep complaining regardless of what we get, but frankly we all know the reason so many of us have space marine armies. It's nice to have something that gets releases.
I'll honestly admit to why I have them.
1- LOTS of kitbash/conversion potential that doesn't require a whole lot of chopping and green stuff.
2- Doesn't require hundreds of infantry models to build, buy, and paint.
3- Playing Deathwatch means that there are very few models from other chapters that I can't "steal".
The leaked info talked about CA release 7th of Dec... So today they have to announce the preorder of CA 2019 along with PA 3 if the list is still spot on... Isn't that right???
Darsath wrote: It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...
I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.
the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing
Darsath wrote: It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...
I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.
How many Dynastys, Orders, Kabals, Craftworlds, Septs, Regiments, Cults, Hive Fleets etc have a single upgrade pack - you can;t buy whats not there can you but hey lets just make stuff for Marines and then ask - why are people buying that and not the non existant stuff for other factions.
On the few occassions that they do somehing new - like say Sisters - oh look it sold out in less than ten minutes for a 2 week pre-order.
Wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade sprue for Nids with generic adrenal glands and toxin sacs and maybe something extra.
There's no design intent behind which model has access to those, some melee monsters can use them, some ranged monsters can use them...the only criteria is whether the kit has the bits on a sprue.
Darsath wrote: It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.
Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...
I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.
the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing
Points levels make a large difference for some factions.
A lot of the top performing builds will fade out at 1750 or 1500 because they won't be able to get the CP from min battalions to get their build to work.
Certain units/factions are broken in terms of points.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.
A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.
Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.
None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.
Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.
GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.
Players are largely at fault for this. For a long time, GW routinely played at a smaller points level than a lot of tournaments and non-competitive groups. 1500 vs 2000, and it makes a big difference.
If people choose to play bigger games, that has little to do with the rules and a lot on their own preferences. The game doesn't mandate any such thing.
Point levels don't really make a difference because someone is gonna meet the rule of three for things like Flyrants and Commanders and Dissies and such.
It's mathematically obvious when certain units are broken. You blaming the players is solely white knighting at its finest.
Hardly. For one thing, I'm not jabbering about units being broken. I'm simply pointing out that larger games are a player choice. It can never be anything BUT player choice- GW doesn't come to your house/store/tourney and insist on a point level.
And pointing out that the claim about 'GW seeing the advantages of a high point' limit is completely false, as it goes against decades of reality, where GW events were consistently at lower points than independent events.
It's a claim that simply isn't true, and easily proved to be nonsense.
BrianDavion wrote: the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing
Dakkadakka is very much a minority. You can find facebook, discord, and reddit groups that have very different perspectives from the Dakka one. On top of that, if you ask a few people if they go onto 40k forums or anything online, they'll just say, "Oh, Hell no. Those places are awful". Most of my friends that have played tabletop games for years only go online to look at releases, reviews, and basic tactics talk. As one of my friends put it, "40k internet groups are the reason I was afraid to go play with strangers, I was concerned the entitled and irrational behavior was the norm". And of course, we all know, most 40k players IRL are very chill people and the lunatics are rare- interacting with human beings in reality tends to ensure those sorts are kept out, or at least on the far peripheral with whispered disclaimers about "that dude".
As far as the releases, I think GW has Vanilla SM where they need to be. There's still the snowflake SM factions, and they'll get around to updating them. In the meantime, I think it's about time they focused on Xenos.
And no, it's not because I'm a Xenos player or anything, it's so people will hush about not getting anything or prove my point about some players still crying no matter what they get. It's a win for me, either way.
If we can stay on topic for a moment, I think that Games Workshop's lower focus on Chapter Approved this year (assuming the December 7th release date is true) could hint towards less content or production time than in past years. I could theorise that the other releases that are coming out around the same time, such as the new PA and sisters release, would mean less time devoted to CA. I hope that some of the lesser Xenos races gets stuff, and that the other Space Marine factions get updated to at least match the vanilla Space Marine codex. We'll see soon enough.
Darsath wrote: If we can stay on topic for a moment, I think that Games Workshop's lower focus on Chapter Approved this year (assuming the December 7th release date is true) could hint towards less content or production time than in past years. I could theorise that the other releases that are coming out around the same time, such as the new PA and sisters release, would mean less time devoted to CA. I hope that some of the lesser Xenos races gets stuff, and that the other Space Marine factions get updated to at least match the vanilla Space Marine codex. We'll see soon enough.
No need for them to put all that effort into CA when we're gonna see 8.5/9th edition soon.
Darsath wrote: If we can stay on topic for a moment, I think that Games Workshop's lower focus on Chapter Approved this year (assuming the December 7th release date is true) could hint towards less content or production time than in past years. I could theorise that the other releases that are coming out around the same time, such as the new PA and sisters release, would mean less time devoted to CA. I hope that some of the lesser Xenos races gets stuff, and that the other Space Marine factions get updated to at least match the vanilla Space Marine codex. We'll see soon enough.
No need for them to put all that effort into CA when we're gonna see 8.5/9th edition soon.
Assuming this is true (and I think it's likely), we might be in for a long wait for certain factions. They can still at least update the points for Space Wolves, Blood Angels etc to match the SM Vanilla codex atm. If any factions have to wait longer than another year for an update, then it would be better to update in Chapter Approved.
Whatever Warhammer 40,000 army you play, you’ll want to get a copy of this year’s Chapter Approved – the essential annual update for all gamers in the 41st Millennium. This year, we’ve separated Chapter Approved into two bundled books for your convenience.
Try new missions and ways to play with Chapter Approved 2019 itself, then build your matched play lists with the Munitorum Field Manual – a reference guide with points for everything currently in Warhammer 40,000. The Field Manual doesn’t just contain updated points, but unchanged ones too, meaning you’ll only have to look in once place when writing your lists!
Darsath wrote: Assuming this is true (and I think it's likely), we might be in for a long wait for certain factions. They can still at least update the points for Space Wolves, Blood Angels etc to match the SM Vanilla codex atm. If any factions have to wait longer than another year for an update, then it would be better to update in Chapter Approved.
I have two little birds that tell me secrets. The one that told me about this has foot in the door in Nottingham, in his words.
Not a lot is changing, really. It's more of an updated rulebook with all the changes since 8th dropped. Nu-Marines won't need a new Codex, but the others are going to see updates. About all we'll get to herald this change is another SM vs. Somebody box with no new models.
Pretty nice having a book with all the point values.
Curious why all the insider-informants reporting on point changes for Tank Commanders and 2 wounds for Khorne Berzerkers and all that didn't mention this.
So do we buy both books separately, or do we get both books at once? How much are they separately, because I have a sneaking suspicion that they are going to increase the price.
Unless I'm looking at it wrong, it looks like the points book is a soft cover, while the normal chapter approved is hard cover. Could that mean a lower lead up time for that book?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So do we buy both books separately, or do we get both books at once? How much are they separately, because I have a sneaking suspicion that they are going to increase the price.
It'll be just like AoS General's Handbook, two books packed together. The points book for AoS is a smaller stable-bound thing and the main Handbook has all the rules and missions and whatnots.
I'm laughing at the timing of the announcement. On a more serious note, I think it's a good idea to print the points separately in a different book. And printing all points values is actually convenient, since it lets you look at other faction's stuff too. Should also make getting the points updates cheaper and better, which is a shocking move on Games Workshop's part. We'll find out more in the next week, but excellent news. So far, going strong.
It'd be more convenient if it was separate or... you know, an online update.
Well you might save couple euro\s for it that way sure. What? You expect them to give new points for free?
But at least they made sensible option and went for all points in one place. Only 2 iterations too late. There never was point for having points at the back of book rather than at the datasheet if update wasn't for whole back pages. Took only 2 years for GW to figure out the obvious
Darsath wrote: I'm laughing at the timing of the announcement. On a more serious note, I think it's a good idea to print the points separately in a different book. And printing all points values is actually convenient, since it lets you look at other faction's stuff too. Should also make getting the points updates cheaper and better, which is a shocking move on Games Workshop's part. We'll find out more in the next week, but excellent news. So far, going strong.
Its the 40k team running behind AoS again. So not really that shocking.
Ordana wrote: Its the 40k team running behind AoS again. So not really that shocking.
Makes sense really. AoS lets them trial out riskier ideas which might be applicable to their 40k cash cow. Then they can incorporate it based on the overall reception.
Crazyterran wrote: If it's like the others and the GHB, you can buy it online, so it counts?
Always have to be so negative over something that is overall a better change.
Yeah a better change for GW are we thinking a 25% or 50% price increase or even higher your getting double the books now to tide you over 6mths until 9th drops and you need to spend again if the rumours are true.
Darsath wrote: I'm laughing at the timing of the announcement. On a more serious note, I think it's a good idea to print the points separately in a different book. And printing all points values is actually convenient, since it lets you look at other faction's stuff too. Should also make getting the points updates cheaper and better, which is a shocking move on Games Workshop's part. We'll find out more in the next week, but excellent news. So far, going strong.
I think I’ve missed something, what’s the joke about the timing?
I find it funny because it effectively discredits all the "leaks" we've seen. If these leaks were accurate, I'd think "points will be in a separate book" would be one of the most important things to mention. As far as the announcement itself, I loved when they did this for AoS, and I love that they're doing it for 40k now. When the points and rules were in the same book for Chapter Approved/General's Handbook, people viewed the rules as outdated the same way they did the points. In reality, the rule were still completely valid. With the points being separate now, GW can just update points every year while keeping popular new rules in the game.
EnTyme wrote: I find it funny because it effectively discredits all the "leaks" we've seen. If these leaks were accurate, I'd think "points will be in a separate book" would be one of the most important things to mention. As far as the announcement itself, I loved when they did this for AoS, and I love that they're doing it for 40k now. When the points and rules were in the same book for Chapter Approved/General's Handbook, people viewed the rules as outdated the same way they did the points. In reality, the rule were still completely valid. With the points being separate now, GW can just update points every year while keeping popular new rules in the game.
It is nice having just the points in a separate booklet. While I don't like having to reach for multiple books for rules I rarely look at point costs during a game so having them in a different book is no inconvenience, whereas if I am actually building a list or checking point costs I just have to grab the one little booklet and not worry about anything else.
Chris521 wrote: Unless I'm looking at it wrong, it looks like the points book is a soft cover, while the normal chapter approved is hard cover. Could that mean a lower lead up time for that book?
I don't think so. Looking at the front of my Chapter Approved 2018, I see that same line near the spine as opposed to the indent I see on the cover of my Codex Astra Militarum.
Tyranids
-Malanthrope down 10pts
-Haruspex down 10 pts
-hive tyrant down 5pts
-Hive guard up 2 pts
Chaos
-Discordant up in cost 15 pts
- CSM down 2 pts
- cult marines down 2 pts
- Cultists stay the same
- plaguebeaerers up 1 pt
- greater daemon cost reduction (including named)
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids
-Malanthrope down 10pts
-Haruspex down 10 pts
-hive tyrant down 5pts
-Hive guard up 2 pts
Chaos
-Discordant up in cost 15 pts
- CSM down 2 pts
- cult marines down 2 pts
- Cultists stay the same
- plaguebeaerers up 1 pt
- greater daemon cost reduction (including named)
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids
-Malanthrope down 10pts
-Haruspex down 10 pts
-hive tyrant down 5pts
-Hive guard up 2 pts
Chaos
-Discordant up in cost 15 pts
- CSM down 2 pts
- cult marines down 2 pts
- Cultists stay the same
- plaguebeaerers up 1 pt
- greater daemon cost reduction (including named)
The thing with Space Marine drops, it may not be on units currently spammed. Maybe its Land Raider, or storm Raven, or DA, BA, SW drops. These would hardly change things currently, at least not for the worse.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tyranids
-Malanthrope down 10pts
-Haruspex down 10 pts
-hive tyrant down 5pts
-Hive guard up 2 pts
Chaos
-Discordant up in cost 15 pts
- CSM down 2 pts
- cult marines down 2 pts
- Cultists stay the same
- plaguebeaerers up 1 pt
- greater daemon cost reduction (including named)
bullyboy wrote: The thing with Space Marine drops, it may not be on units currently spammed. Maybe its Land Raider, or storm Raven, or DA, BA, SW drops. These would hardly change things currently, at least not for the worse.
This is what I think. I still doubt these rumours though, since it would certainly leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths around the holiday season.
"Unsourced" means you should be skeptical. "Unsourced on 4chan" means you can pretty much bank on it being some neckbeard who thinks he's clever trying to drum up controversy for "the lulz".
AnonAmbientLight wrote: How insane is it to suggest that a snippet of rule changes, in this case points, is enough for you to claim that the game is over.
That's like you looking through a keyhole into a room, and then telling us you know exactly what's going to be inside of the entire room.
It's fascinating because you will find this kind of mentality in pretty much anything, not just table top.
I'm pretty conservative on my doomsaying when it comes to 40k, but even I'll be calling bull if marines get points drops on much of anything effected by the new doctrine rules. Those bumped them to a very good place for anything but exploitative combos. Points drops will push it over the edge into blatant BS.
bullyboy wrote: The thing with Space Marine drops, it may not be on units currently spammed. Maybe its Land Raider, or storm Raven, or DA, BA, SW drops. These would hardly change things currently, at least not for the worse.
I suspect any Marine posts drops would be stuff like bringing BA etc in line with Marines. and maybe dropping some points on stuff that never got a points drop in the codex and is priced a bit too high.
To all those who think vanilla marines will get point drops...the CA 2019 was probably written before codex SM... This is what happened with spacewolves codex last year... We got zero changes to spacewolf stuff even though the codex was released in august. The CA 2018 had no changes for DE,harlies, deathwatch or knights so it was probably written to include everybody up to necron codex....
So they couldn't just have a section of the book dedicated to points changes. We obviously needed another book.
Fudge me, someone over there really few sandwiches short of a picnic...
FB page clarified both books will cost the same as previous years CA right ? I'm at work so cant really check myself.
bullyboy wrote: If it's just DA, BA, SW, DW, GK marine changes, I'd be fine with that.
If PA3 is basically Codex Blood Angels - why would they duplicate this in CA 2019?
it is my understanding that PA3 is just rules changes and the odd new datasheet. I would strongly doubt that they would have full points for BAs. That's for the codex (which will still be valid) and CA adjusts to that.
Argive wrote: So they couldn't just have a section of the book dedicated to points changes. We obviously needed another book.
Fudge me, someone over there really few sandwiches short of a picnic...
FB page clarified both books will cost the same as previous years CA right ? I'm at work so cant really check myself.
Books equal guaranteed sales.
Models are not so clear
"This book is part lore, part double-pronged codex update, and all awesome! Inside, you’ll see the Blood Angels face the Tyranids once more as part of their desperate ongoing defence of their homeworld. New and updated datasheets give your Blood Angels access to extra army rules, Vanguard units, Stratagems, psychic powers, Litanies and more! There’s even some extra stuff for Flesh Tearers fans – ideal if you like your Blood Angels successors extra bloody."
My money is on it essentially being a BA codex supplement update with a bone thrown for tyranids to keep up appearances...
We do know, at the very least, that there are some unique Tyranid stuff in it. They have the custom Hive Fleet stuff, and Stratagems and so on that we'd expect, but the Adaptive Psyiology stuff will be the real measuring stick. The last 2 books have felt somewhat underwhelming, so Games Workshop are probably hoping for a strong release this time.
bullyboy wrote: If it's just DA, BA, SW, DW, GK marine changes, I'd be fine with that.
If PA3 is basically Codex Blood Angels - why would they duplicate this in CA 2019?
it is my understanding that PA3 is just rules changes and the odd new datasheet. I would strongly doubt that they would have full points for BAs. That's for the codex (which will still be valid) and CA adjusts to that.
This book is part lore, part double-pronged codex update, and all awesome! Inside, you’ll see the Blood Angels face the Tyranids once more as part of their desperate ongoing defence of their homeworld. New and updated datasheets give your Blood Angels access to extra army rules, Vanguard units, Stratagems, psychic powers, Litanies and more! There’s even some extra stuff for Flesh Tearers fans – ideal if you like your Blood Angels successors extra bloody
.
Oh and apparently they chuck Tyranids a few crumbs.
That’s not all. The Tyranids are getting some very exciting updates to help you bring this army to life on the tabletop as never before. Extra bio-artefacts allow you to create particularly notable gribblies armed with unique and terrifying weapons. A suite of Stratagems let you change your strategy on the battlefield to better hunt your prey. You’ll even be able to build your own hive fleet with your choice of traits. And that’s not all…
Adaptive Physiology is a new system, bespoke for the Tyranids, that lets you represent the myriad adaptations of the Great Devourer. A Carnifex with Synapse? A pack of camouflaged Tyranid Warriors? It’s all possible thanks to Psychic Awakening. We’ll be previewing these systems in more depth soon, so stay tuned!
That’s not all. The Tyranids are getting some very exciting updates to help you bring this army to life on the tabletop as never before. Extra bio-artefacts allow you to create particularly notable gribblies armed with unique and terrifying weapons. A suite of Stratagems let you change your strategy on the battlefield to better hunt your prey. You’ll even be able to build your own hive fleet with your choice of traits. And that’s not all…
Adaptive Physiology is a new system, bespoke for the Tyranids, that lets you represent the myriad adaptations of the Great Devourer. A Carnifex with Synapse? A pack of camouflaged Tyranid Warriors? It’s all possible thanks to Psychic Awakening. We’ll be previewing these systems in more depth soon, so stay tuned!
I'm not sure who this is being directed to, but if it's me, then I did read the article. Read my comment.
Basically you took as few different species as possible (Tyrant, 'Fex & Gaunts) to maximise the amount of weapon beasts (READ: Rending Claws) you could take in Gaunt units.
It wouldint surprise me if the nid stuff is Chaos PA grade in terms of content. But therein lies the problem, compare the chaos to BT side of the book and you see a pattern.. Hence suggesting the Nid/SM sides of the book will not be equal in terms of content..
It would make sense for it to be really good considering the new nid battle force looks real good value for money. I hope it is. And if I didn't have a big pile of shame already and still building my current force id really consider jumping into nids which is my first love/ 40k army
That’s not all. The Tyranids are getting some very exciting updates to help you bring this army to life on the tabletop as never before. Extra bio-artefacts allow you to create particularly notable gribblies armed with unique and terrifying weapons. A suite of Stratagems let you change your strategy on the battlefield to better hunt your prey. You’ll even be able to build your own hive fleet with your choice of traits. And that’s not all…
Adaptive Physiology is a new system, bespoke for the Tyranids, that lets you represent the myriad adaptations of the Great Devourer. A Carnifex with Synapse? A pack of camouflaged Tyranid Warriors? It’s all possible thanks to Psychic Awakening. We’ll be previewing these systems in more depth soon, so stay tuned!
I'm not sure who this is being directed to, but if it's me, then I did read the article. Read my comment.
Not you Darsath, the people moaning that Tyranids are getting nothing worth talking about. It may all be bad, but it certainly is going to be more than PA1 gave it's factions.
bullyboy wrote: The thing with Space Marine drops, it may not be on units currently spammed. Maybe its Land Raider, or storm Raven, or DA, BA, SW drops. These would hardly change things currently, at least not for the worse.
This is what I think. I still doubt these rumours though, since it would certainly leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths around the holiday season.
Are players with old marines armies not allowed to celebrate?
Based on the timings its kind of weird that marines would get any major points changes as the CA book should have been in the pipeline similar time to codex 2.0.
So, I'm not sure if anybody else knows more, but my friend who works in printing pointed out that softback books of this style tend to take less lead time to print and bind.
I imagined that would be the case, but it was good to hear it's a possibility. Would help separate the timelines between all the other things that need to go into the CA book and points changes, which, if my friend is correct, could mean they would be free to print later than they have in the past.
Argive wrote: So they couldn't just have a section of the book dedicated to points changes. We obviously needed another book.
Fudge me, someone over there really few sandwiches short of a picnic...
FB page clarified both books will cost the same as previous years CA right ? I'm at work so cant really check myself.
AoS started by printing all points instead of just changes. 40k players were expecting the same with the first CA but didn't get it and, rightfully, complained.
2 years later they are listening.
AoS moved to 2 books instead of 1 to make it easier, you don't need missions when writing your list and you don't need points while playing. AoS players were happy about it.
40k is following that style.
Now if only they had updated the new mini rulebook with all changes like the AoS book did....
ps.
Any rumour containing generic SM point changes is fake as hell. Did you learn nothing from the last 2 CA's?
We've seen that rumour on here for a couple days now. I'm going to continue to doubt it's legitimacy though until we see strong evidence. Mostly because I don't want them to be true to be honest, but also the likelihood that people will spread false rumours.
xttz wrote: This was just posted on the french 40k forum.
Before everyone freaks out, don't forget the possibility that 'space marines' could refer to the BA/DA/DW/GK/SW codexes
That's already been seen, on B&C before the announce of two books. So again, anyone that didn't mention two books is a BS rumour in my mind. Also this just looks like a list designed to annoy everyone.
Tiberius501 wrote: I do also agree that the “general point reduction” will most likely be all the stuff vanilla marines saw drop in their new codex but for DA/BA/SW/etc.
But do you need insider-information for Dark Angels Tac Marines going down to 12 points? That‘s about as probable as the CA19 having the GW logo on it.
If anything, it would be a scoop worth throwing to the public if this DOESN‘T happen.
Also, the rumours came with the explicit comment that there were somehow separate teams working in GW that failed to communicate about Space Marine points, with the one working on CA somehow believing the new Codex/supplements wouldn't cut it and they needed to address the issue independently (and without talking to) the guys (and girls?) working on the new Marine rules. That implies insider information in the sense of having actually talked to people in the room, not just having peaked at pages with points on them, and certainly doesn't fit the "oh we meant Blood Angels after all" misdirect.
If anything, if the CA19 were to bring BA/DA/SW/etc.. points in line with the Codex Marines, wouldn't that disprove the rumour that there were separate teams that didn't communicate working on these books?
Yeah, vanilla marines ain't going down. What they will do is stomp flat any unit that could hope to compete with the new space marine BS.
If big meks, mek gunz, shield drones, riptides, grots, talos, both cwe flyers, kelermorph and acolytes don't get an absolute shellacking I'll eat my hat.
Lemondish wrote: So, I'm not sure if anybody else knows more, but my friend who works in printing pointed out that softback books of this style tend to take less lead time to print and bind.
I imagined that would be the case, but it was good to hear it's a possibility. Would help separate the timelines between all the other things that need to go into the CA book and points changes, which, if my friend is correct, could mean they would be free to print later than they have in the past.
What changes the lead time is colour or B&W, and Far East or European printing (Italy/Poland most likely).
My guess is that they print Codexes in the Far East, and CA in Europe.
If CHE don't get a points bump I will finally add 1 or 2 to my list. Not sure the Hemlock needs an adjustment, it's already at 210pts. Dark Talon at 200pts needs to come back down though, maybe not to it's earlier 160pt cost, but for sure to 175 or 180.
Lemondish wrote: So, I'm not sure if anybody else knows more, but my friend who works in printing pointed out that softback books of this style tend to take less lead time to print and bind.
I imagined that would be the case, but it was good to hear it's a possibility. Would help separate the timelines between all the other things that need to go into the CA book and points changes, which, if my friend is correct, could mean they would be free to print later than they have in the past.
What changes the lead time is colour or B&W, and Far East or European printing (Italy/Poland most likely).
My guess is that they print Codexes in the Far East, and CA in Europe.
Presumably refers to shock attack guns. MAKFF mek is already suboptimal and the non-MA will be removed from tournament recommendations with legends so not many big meks to nerf to death
Presumably refers to shock attack guns. MAKFF mek is already suboptimal and the non-MA will be removed from tournament recommendations with legends so not many big meks to nerf to death
They're not undercosted though. Popular doesn't mean good for orks' HQs because we need 6ish of them, and only a few HQs are decent. Plus there's rule of three. SAGs are decent for 80 points, but far from being really good. Only the relic one is but tipycally it costs also +2CPs (because we really want that Klaw) which sucks.
Really, only Smasha Gunz deserve to go up a little bit in points (40ppm should be ok) in the ork codex. 75% of the codex should be cheaper, or with better rules but the latter is not going to happen before the new codex.
For sure, people are taking them in tournament lists. Not marine unit in tournament list bad, need 30% nerf!
Ah, for a second I thought you were serious about that
Oh I am serious. I fully expect a nerf to either the point cost of the SAG or the point cost of the big mek body. Probably also the Mega Armor big mek body too because, I dunno, feth it.
Presumably refers to shock attack guns. MAKFF mek is already suboptimal and the non-MA will be removed from tournament recommendations with legends so not many big meks to nerf to death
They're not undercosted though. Popular doesn't mean good for orks' HQs because we need 6ish of them, and only a few HQs are decent. Plus there's rule of three. SAGs are decent for 80 points, but far from being really good. Only the relic one is but tipycally it costs also +2CPs (because we really want that Klaw) which sucks.
Really, only Smasha Gunz deserve to go up a little bit in points (40ppm should be ok) in the ork codex. 75% of the codex should be cheaper, or with better rules but the latter is not going to happen before the new codex.
It's ork unit that gets used a lot. That equals to nerf incoming. Irrelevant is it undercosted or not. Gw isn't aiming for balance anyway with these. Just making sure people stop using what they have been using and buy new units to replace them
He s talking about the SSAG, the most unstable unit in the game. So unstable that NOBODY has been able to make any prediction anywhere real reality. Nobody on this forum, nobody on Reddit, not even the guy that made the mathammered app. A model that cost a special detachment and a relic. THAT guy need to be fixed.....
Also 3 points BS4 WS5 T2 S2 6+ with NO abilties beside DDD and be used for ONE stratgems. THEY need to go up in points. One of the TWO troops choice orks have. THEY are broken....
I ll give him my hat so he can be happy. Even my peruvian one, the one made of wool, that would give him some time to reflect before writing again such folly.
For sure, people are taking them in tournament lists. Not marine unit in tournament list bad, need 30% nerf!
Ah, for a second I thought you were serious about that
Oh I am serious. I fully expect a nerf to either the point cost of the SAG or the point cost of the big mek body. Probably also the Mega Armor big mek body too because, I dunno, feth it.
Are you fething joking right?
The big mek in MA with KFF is 122 points. ONE HUNDRED TWENTY TWO POINTS.
So point reduction for Necrons (ok fair) Grey Knights (ok the one marines for which it's fair) and Dark Angels (?).
Thankfully none advertised for vanilla.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So point reduction for Necrons (ok fair) Grey Knights (ok the one marines for which it's fair) and Dark Angels (?).
Thankfully none advertised for vanilla.
17ppm for a strike and a tac marine is at, what now... 12ppm? 4 points for a storm bolter, 1 point for a force weapon and psychic power access. Seems pretty not terrible? Their special weapon list is still kind of made of ass, and it's hilarious that vanilla marines marines now have the choice of like 54 psychic powers while a GK player is still starting the game asking "Hmmm, how shall I divvy up my 6 powers among all the units in this army...."
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So point reduction for Necrons (ok fair) Grey Knights (ok the one marines for which it's fair) and Dark Angels (?).
Thankfully none advertised for vanilla.
17ppm for a strike and a tac marine is at, what now... 12ppm? 4 points for a storm bolter, 1 point for a force weapon and psychic power access. Seems pretty not terrible? Their special weapon list is still kind of made of ass, and it's hilarious that vanilla marines marines now have the choice of like 54 psychic powers while a GK player is still starting the game asking "Hmmm, how shall I divvy up my 6 powers among all the units in this army...."
Yup. Its a step in the right direction, but without further structural change its a bandaid on a gaping wound.
Rumor has it Grey Knights will be getting a substantial update when it becomes their turn for Psychic Awakening. We should get a good idea of how big that can be when Blood of Baal gets spoliered and we see the updates for Blood Angels.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So point reduction for Necrons (ok fair) Grey Knights (ok the one marines for which it's fair) and Dark Angels (?).
Thankfully none advertised for vanilla.
17ppm for a strike and a tac marine is at, what now... 12ppm? 4 points for a storm bolter, 1 point for a force weapon and psychic power access. Seems pretty not terrible? Their special weapon list is still kind of made of ass, and it's hilarious that vanilla marines marines now have the choice of like 54 psychic powers while a GK player is still starting the game asking "Hmmm, how shall I divvy up my 6 powers among all the units in this army...."
Well, and native deepstrike, which is probably their biggest asset. But with everyone gearing to kill Marines, not to mention Marines themselves throwing out heavily AP modified shots like there's no tomorrow, they're probably still not worth it for their output and still too expensive to just pay the Batallion-tax and have them stay off the table as long as possible.
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alextroy wrote: Rumor has it Grey Knights will be getting a substantial update when it becomes their turn for Psychic Awakening. We should get a good idea of how big that can be when Blood of Baal gets spoliered and we see the updates for Blood Angels.
Well it certainly can't be less of an update than Ynnari got, lol.
10pt increase on the Razorwing Jetfighter to 115. Not good, I'm assuming this is a change to the base cost of 105 and it's not needed, at 135 with it's cheapest and most common loadout I found it to be fair but not overpowered, and we don't know of any points changes to weapons either.
If it's 115 fully louded then thats just insane as well.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So point reduction for Necrons (ok fair) Grey Knights (ok the one marines for which it's fair) and Dark Angels (?).
Thankfully none advertised for vanilla.
Any marine army that isn't covered by C:SM is pretty trash atm. DA, BA, and SW weren't seeing as much success as C:SM BEFORE the book (outside of smash captains) and GK are notoriously the worst army in the game.
2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Imateria wrote: 10pt increase on the Razorwing Jetfighter to 115. Not good, I'm assuming this is a change to the base cost of 105 and it's not needed, at 135 with it's cheapest and most common loadout I found it to be fair but not overpowered, and we don't know of any points changes to weapons either.
If it's 115 fully louded then thats just insane as well.
Don't think so. They said it went up, not down.
Though I think they are still too cheap. Too many armies like GSC, Khorne Daemons, etc... just have insufficient tools to deal with Flyer models.
The virtual immunity to a fair share of armies should have a (higher) cost.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Well, those are just the first things they've mentioned, hopefully there is a bunch more.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Well, those are just the first things they've mentioned, hopefully there is a bunch more.
And with ALL points for ALL factions being released here, it may take some time before wee see the full implications of what really did change. 2ppm cheaper Strikes, plus increases for other stuff like Guard Infantry and Aeldari Flyers might be enough to at least my GKs not the worst army in 40K.
Give every GK unit Psybolt ammo for free (in the same way DW have SIA and vanilla Marines have Combat Doctrines) and GKs don't look so bad. It's a patch, but a good one
These changes are hard to judge without all the context. For example, as a Necron player, I'm looking forward to running Praetorians for only 20 points per model, but I don't see that changing much in the army (they have almost 0 synergy). It's units like Warriors who would change that.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
4 points actually, they are currently 21 with their loadout.
Imateria wrote: 10pt increase on the Razorwing Jetfighter to 115. Not good, I'm assuming this is a change to the base cost of 105 and it's not needed, at 135 with it's cheapest and most common loadout I found it to be fair but not overpowered, and we don't know of any points changes to weapons either.
If it's 115 fully louded then thats just insane as well.
Don't think so. They said it went up, not down.
Though I think they are still too cheap. Too many armies like GSC, Khorne Daemons, etc... just have insufficient tools to deal with Flyer models.
The virtual immunity to a fair share of armies should have a (higher) cost.
They're not, Daemons can take them out with Winged Daemon Princes and for a Jetfighter it's terribad at dealing with other flyers. It's damage output is only ever OK as well, not aweful but not great, it certianly doesn't have the mass of bonuses built in like the CHE.
For necrons, a 6 PPM drop on a 26 point model is pretty significant, and while I'm sure that's probably the biggest relative change for necrons (a 23% decrease in cost), I wonder what else is in the works. I had suspected that Necron shooting units will stay more or less the same, and that Necron melee units would get a cost reduction, and this seems to line up with that.
The other unit I'm rooting for a big change on is flayed ones, they haven't been viable in several editions, and a 3 or 4 point drop per model would make them very interesting.If they make it as low as 13 PPM, for 260 points they might be an answer to necrons over watch problem, a 20 body blob can recover quite easily from devastating overwatch results, daisy chains well for RP buffs, and can body a massive surface area.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Galas wrote: The problem is that 17ppm for a 1W 3+SV model is... yikes.
At least YOURS aren't T3 S3.
Well yeah but those cost 9ppm (Normally). And can stack invulnerables. I mean, not saying sisters are OP or anything, just that a single wound model, in 40k right now, can't cost more than 11-13ppm to be really worth it unless it is protected with character rules or something.
Scions going to the same price as Skitarii Rangers makes me wish they'd realize just how badly they did the Rangers with the shift from Skitarii to AdMech.
Spoletta wrote: Between PA and this, GW is really pushing those banshees.
I think that they just made it into quite a lot of lists.
At this point the only thing they've got going for them is that they're dirt cheap. 210 for a min Vanguard detachment of Banshees with a Warlock to run up the board and maybe tie something up doesn't sound like a terrible plan, it just hurts my soul that his is literally the one and only use for Banshees, they still can't hurt a fly.
demon prince dropping in pts?
Manipulus dropping like 30 pts?
how is this even remotely legit????
The Manipulus is currently a big waste of points, so that seems reasonable to me. Can't comment on the Prince.
I'm very interested in 7pt Scions. I've been thinking that bare squads (no HSVG or plasma) are reasonably viable when you take FRFSRF into account, and a points drop on the base unit might make that moreso.
Maybe grenade launchers/flamers will be more worth taking if they're carried by cheaper platforms.
Latro_ wrote: could make chaos marines 8pts they'd still be crapper than cultists
Actually at 8 pts you'd always pick them over cultists due to min 5 and therefore skimping on the troop tax.
Because god forbid the 10'000 year long veterans are actually decent enough and need everything handled by obliterators DP's or any other variety of units.
Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
catbarf wrote:
The Manipulus is currently a big waste of points, so that seems reasonable to me. Can't comment on the Prince.
I'm very interested in 7pt Scions. I've been thinking that bare squads (no HSVG or plasma) are reasonably viable when you take FRFSRF into account, and a points drop on the base unit might make that moreso.
Maybe grenade launchers/flamers will be more worth taking if they're carried by cheaper platforms.
The manipulus is the second best HQ that we have right now... The utility he brings is invaluable.
Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
demon prince dropping in pts?
Manipulus dropping like 30 pts?
how is this even remotely legit????
The Manipulus is currently a big waste of points, so that seems reasonable to me. Can't comment on the Prince.
I'm very interested in 7pt Scions. I've been thinking that bare squads (no HSVG or plasma) are reasonably viable when you take FRFSRF into account, and a points drop on the base unit might make that moreso.
Maybe grenade launchers/flamers will be more worth taking if they're carried by cheaper platforms.
Flamers only if you're running Valks. Otherwise just stick with all Plasma.
However, at that cheap a price point they're more viable as a stand alone army.
Hulksmash wrote: Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
Harlequins are 13 points base costs. Lol.
Geared up, they make Grey Knight Strike Squads (pre point-drop) look like a bargain.
2 fully geared troop-choice Harlequins cost as much as a single Assault Centurion WITH hurricane bolter, lol.
Hulksmash wrote: Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
Harlequins are 13 points base costs. Lol.
Geared up, they make Grey Knight Strike Squads (pre point-drop) look like a bargain.
2 fully geared troop-choice Harlequins cost as much as a single Assault Centurion WITH hurricane bolter, lol.
Hulksmash wrote: Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
What does a harlequin pay for in its base point cost? I'm seeing 13ppm as the base cost with the S user AP- D1 sword and the 0 pt pistol.
Hulksmash wrote: Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
What does a harlequin pay for in its base point cost? I'm seeing 13ppm as the base cost with the S user AP- D1 sword and the 0 pt pistol.
13 pts for sucky clowns.
then it goes to 20 with a fusion or a good melee weapon.
Hulksmash wrote: Probably needs to be said. The article bounces between fully equipped and base cost. The facebook is purely their base point value. So banshees are down 2pts to 11 and harlies similar.
What does a harlequin pay for in its base point cost? I'm seeing 13ppm as the base cost with the S user AP- D1 sword and the 0 pt pistol.
13 pts for sucky clowns.
then it goes to 20 with a fusion or a good melee weapon.
100pts for 5 6" melta shots.
Yeah Im just confused by the "9 to 7" points drop.
Yeah Im just confused by the "9 to 7" points drop.
Even money says its a copy/paste error from the Banshee entry.
So, likely 13 to 11 for a harlequin.
what a joke when compared to marine stuff, lol. Wow! FOUR S3 Ap- D1 melee attacks! A whole shuriken pistol!
depends, it might be from 13 to 7 and the cause of the error was that the intern who make the pic only looked at the last number. Still , until they clear it up, i wont get my hopes up.
depends, it might be from 13 to 7 and the cause of the error was that the intern who make the pic only looked at the last number. Still , until they clear it up, i wont get my hopes up.
65 points for a fully tooled up Troupe squad would be insanity.
Lol, probably a copy/paste issue then. The rest look right for base cost of the models before wargear. Hopefully that means a 2pt drop down to a starting point of 11 for them.
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
Imateria wrote: Still wouldn't take Reavers at 16ppm though, they just don't have any real utility anymore.
Really? I never looked at them before, but now that I am...are they really that worthless?
Seems like there's some kind of cool stuff there from PA for them.
Damage output, and the lack thereoff. Unlike every other biker squad in the game they only get a standard splinter rifle, not a twin version so their shooting is terrible even at 16ppm. Their special ranged weapons are at least Assault, but you can only take 1 per 3, the Heat Lance is a S6 melta and doesn't have enough shots to be used for elite hunting so is useless at any points cost whilst the Blaster is expensive (will cost more than the bike if it stays at 17pts) and suffers from you only ever rolling 1 dice with no access to any re-rolls beyond a CP. In combat they've only got 2 S4, AP-1 D1 attacks each which for a combat unit is terrible. Yes, this can be boosted with Cult of Strife for +1A on the charge, but this costs you access to Red Grief's Advance and Charge trait, or with a combat drug but unless you're going full Wych Cult that only really ever applies to one unit. They're also not that survivable, the proliferation of mid strength, high rate of fire, multi damge weapons like Dissintegrators, auto cannons, missile pods, plasma etc means with a 4+ save they die very fast.
Phoenix Rising didn't do much to fix them, I've tried Test of Skill for the +1 to wound against Vehicles and Monsters but saw no notable improvement in damage output whilst Slashing Impact never really generated the extra wounds for me that I needed it to. It's also worth remembering that these two traits, which most people seem to think ar ethe best, dont work together as one is against infantry and bikers whilst the other is against vehicles and monsters.
The best way to run them seems to be with Red Grief to move 26" and then charge turn 1 to try and tie up your opponents shooting since they just can't kill anything.
Imateria wrote: Still wouldn't take Reavers at 16ppm though, they just don't have any real utility anymore.
Really? I never looked at them before, but now that I am...are they really that worthless?
Seems like there's some kind of cool stuff there from PA for them.
Damage output, and the lack thereoff. Unlike every other biker squad in the game they only get a standard splinter rifle, not a twin version so their shooting is terrible even at 16ppm. Their special ranged weapons are at least Assault, but you can only take 1 per 3, the Heat Lance is a S6 melta and doesn't have enough shots to be used for elite hunting so is useless at any points cost whilst the Blaster is expensive (will cost more than the bike if it stays at 17pts) and suffers from you only ever rolling 1 dice with no access to any re-rolls beyond a CP. In combat they've only got 2 S4, AP-1 D1 attacks each which for a combat unit is terrible. Yes, this can be boosted with Cult of Strife for +1A on the charge, but this costs you access to Red Grief's Advance and Charge trait, or with a combat drug but unless you're going full Wych Cult that only really ever applies to one unit. They're also not that survivable, the proliferation of mid strength, high rate of fire, multi damge weapons like Dissintegrators, auto cannons, missile pods, plasma etc means with a 4+ save they die very fast.
Phoenix Rising didn't do much to fix them, I've tried Test of Skill for the +1 to wound against Vehicles and Monsters but saw no notable improvement in damage output whilst Slashing Impact never really generated the extra wounds for me that I needed it to. It's also worth remembering that these two traits, which most people seem to think ar ethe best, dont work together as one is against infantry and bikers whilst the other is against vehicles and monsters.
The best way to run them seems to be with Red Grief to move 26" and then charge turn 1 to try and tie up your opponents shooting since they just can't kill anything.
Hmm, well, I was imagining slashing impact, 3x grav talons, and maybe reroll charges. Or exploding 6s to hit and +2A from 1 CP drugs. *shrug* I don't use DE so I can't really speak much more to it. Thanks for the insight.
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?
depends, it might be from 13 to 7 and the cause of the error was that the intern who make the pic only looked at the last number. Still , until they clear it up, i wont get my hopes up.
If they are 7 pts then oh boy orks are getting outhorded by harlequins
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?
Nothing, the levi should probably go up more for regular marines, hopefully.
The decimators and some other things could come down.
Maybee they also realize that using the drunken intern was a bad idea for R&H, DKoK and Corsairs aswell as elysians.
lonewolf81 wrote: not a single sw info...i guess sock assault fixed everything...not... is the article saying that DA are getting rules along with point drops
I kinda hope DA and SW get something soon. PA3 is about to give BAs Combat Doctrines, so DAs at the very least should be Doctrines too since DAs are just as Codex compliant as BAs. SWs, otoh....
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?
Nothing, the levi should probably go up more for regular marines, hopefully.
The decimators and some other things could come down.
Maybee they also realize that using the drunken intern was a bad idea for R&H, DKoK and Corsairs aswell as elysians.
if GW doesnt forget about these armies i'll be fething amazed. I wish corsairs were actually playable in 8th edition, the lore and converting looks dope.
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
War dogs are still Lords of War right? So not the easiest replacement for a dreadnaught or hellbrute for most lists. I guess you could take a super-heavy auxiliary detachment just to add a War Dog. I don’t play chaos but that seems sub-optimal to me.
The cost reduction does allow for 3 detachment of 1 gallant and 2 Armigers each though. I might try that out.
lonewolf81 wrote: not a single sw info...i guess sock assault fixed everything...not... is the article saying that DA are getting rules along with point drops
I kinda hope DA and SW get something soon. PA3 is about to give BAs Combat Doctrines, so DAs at the very least should be Doctrines too since DAs are just as Codex compliant as BAs. SWs, otoh....
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Isn't Psychic Awakening 4 (coming in January) SW and Orks? They'd get their Doctrine there. If that's the case, it's probably a safe bet DA will get theirs in PA 5 in February.
lonewolf81 wrote: not a single sw info...i guess sock assault fixed everything...not... is the article saying that DA are getting rules along with point drops
I kinda hope DA and SW get something soon. PA3 is about to give BAs Combat Doctrines, so DAs at the very least should be Doctrines too since DAs are just as Codex compliant as BAs. SWs, otoh....
-
What do Doctrines have to do with Codex compliant?
Black Templars get Doctrines. Carcharodons get Doctrines. Etc.. and they don't give a rat's ass about the Codex.
Hell, Iron Hands are not a Codex compliant chapter and have the most infamous doctrine/super-doctrine in the game atm.
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?
Nothing, the levi should probably go up more for regular marines, hopefully.
The decimators and some other things could come down.
Maybee they also realize that using the drunken intern was a bad idea for R&H, DKoK and Corsairs aswell as elysians.
if GW doesnt forget about these armies i'll be fething amazed. I wish corsairs were actually playable in 8th edition, the lore and converting looks dope.
Gw certainly remebered r&h cultists when they attempted to kill them aswell even though they were worse then csm ones
demon prince dropping in pts?
Manipulus dropping like 30 pts?
how is this even remotely legit????
The Manipulus is currently a big waste of points, so that seems reasonable to me. Can't comment on the Prince.
I'm very interested in 7pt Scions. I've been thinking that bare squads (no HSVG or plasma) are reasonably viable when you take FRFSRF into account, and a points drop on the base unit might make that moreso.
Maybe grenade launchers/flamers will be more worth taking if they're carried by cheaper platforms.
Flamers only if you're running Valks. Otherwise just stick with all Plasma.
However, at that cheap a price point they're more viable as a stand alone army.
Not even valks, the valk doesn't let them move after grab chute insertion anymore. Flamers are quite possibly the worst weapon you could give a stormtrooper, and that's saying something. He would be better off with a regular hotshot Las.
Manipulus isn't a waste either, he shows up in most competitive admech builds for a reason. He's very niche, but he does the niche well. That said going down to 65 base is a welcome change, and will let him see more use. Poor dominus probably won't see much use anymore between daedolosus, enginseers, and manipulus, but honestly if the dominus could just take some different upgrades he'd be worth it. You know, like half the massive amount of stuff he used to be able to bring like a better invuln save or perhaps some buff upgrades, or even just a better melee weapon.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Four points cheaper.
Storm bolters are not free.
They said 17 after kitted out. This implies 17 with the Storm Bolter.
Oguhmek wrote: Not a single mention of Ork units, which makes me think those grot and mek nerf rumors might actually be true. Yeah, the squigbuggy is a great choice at 135pts compared to an armiger at 145. And the stompa is still definitely worth 925... right?
I swear to God I'll spam the GW site and IG into Oblivion if they do that
agree, not only is that absurd imo, but it also steps on a lot of units toes, like dreadnoughts? Why field a hellbrute, or decimator, or any other such thing if i can just throw down a cheap wardog and call it a day.
If they drop the wardog's price surely dreadnoughts will come down as well? Any leaks on fw units? Leviathans going up?
Nothing, the levi should probably go up more for regular marines, hopefully.
The decimators and some other things could come down.
Maybee they also realize that using the drunken intern was a bad idea for R&H, DKoK and Corsairs aswell as elysians.
They never should have been the same price in the first place. Definitely not now considering doctrines. And csm won't be getting any kind of equivalent judging by the points cost on csm.
chnmmr wrote: 2 point cheaper strikes isn’t going to do much for GKs. Their flaws are intrinsic and token point drops won’t fix it. We still are garbage at deepstriking, have awful psychic powers, nowhere near enough power choice compared to the number of psykers we have, and have generally poor ranged combat (excluding storm bolsters.). The announcement smells of ‘GKs will be the big winner this CA’ and I’m not falling for it. I simply don’t trust GW in this matter.
Four points cheaper.
Storm bolters are not free.
They said 17 after kitted out. This implies 17 with the Storm Bolter.
We’ll see. That’s more significant a decrease as 40 per squad basically pays for 2 heavy weapons and or some hammers
lonewolf81 wrote: not a single sw info...i guess sock assault fixed everything...not... is the article saying that DA are getting rules along with point drops
nothing on orks my guess got to save something for the PA4 article!
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
Which way sells more models? That's the key to every decision GW makes.
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?
Yeah I hated that too
I mean otoh you can literally run legion tactics now. If the legions astartes would've played HOI IV, and only ever used the Mass assault doctrine, which btw out of my personal experience actually worked decent enough casually, until new marines showed up....
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.
Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.
CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units.
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
We literally had a 3 CP no limit recycling stratagem for RC marines, do you honeslty think that they aren't allready?
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.
Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.
CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.
I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.
Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.
CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.
I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?
I know you are being ironic, but still I want to give my thoughts on Mutilators
- They are bad at killing hordes, bad at killing MEQ because of very high variance and they are bad at killing vehicules because of said variance AND their max Strength is 8 but most of the time you will be around 7.
- Getting into melee range has always been the trickiest part of a melee unit and Mutilators are incredibly bad at getting into melee range : either you have to deal with the dreadful M4 or you have to deepstrike them but unfortunately, they don't have access to icons thus they can't even get a charge reroll through Icon of Wrath.
- Even with some PA stuff (Mutilators getting a charge easily with the EC stratagem Honor the Prince), why in the name of the Warp would you want to use it on Mutilators when you take into consideration point 1 ?
tneva82 wrote: Boyz do see use. Unlike stompa. Or tons of FW units.
Yeah, as a dum dum missile instead of an core unit that it supposed to be. Forgive me for beeing old fashioned.
But yeah atleast they see the table, that is true.
Bah, typical competitive lists have 90 ork boyz which is 645-669 points depending on which close combat weapon you choose for the nobs. It's 30% or more of a 2000 points list, a very significant percentage of it. Even if you bring "just" 60 boyz that's over 20% of the list. In smaller games 2x30 or 3x30 boyz are equally common and that's over 50% of the list invested in boyz, the basic troop of the army. What are the other core units of the army, if not boyz? Everything else it's just characters, a single shooting unit, mek gunz and gretchins. These little dudes are there only for tactical reasons, and typically in smaller numbers than boyz.
Old fashioned orks didn't have more boyz unless they were specific lists about the green tide style, not the norm thankfully. Typical orks lists had 40-60 boyz, in 7th even 20ish or no boyz at all.
IMHO 90 ork boyz are a ton of them, very close to 100 which was the number of the green tide formation. I really wish I could bring less boyz and more toyz. I agree that they aren't killy though, but that's because this edition highly favors shooting over melee, pretty much everyone can screen properly and power klaws have become a joke.
They couldn't meaningfully improve CSM and Banshees, so instead low performance elites will get dragged down into the points abyss until they're just cheap chaff on the tabletop
What were you expecting ? Unless GW surprises us, CA only adjusts points. No datasheets change to current units.
Mutilators are 35 points a piece and yet they are still utter garbage. I expect them to drop a further 5 points but even though, nobody will want to play them.
CA only helps unit that are "okay" but a tad too expensive. CA never helped garbage units to be good.
I wonder why! 4 M can't be the issue right?
Also no icons aswell, they are rubish anyways, right guys?
I know you are being ironic, but still I want to give my thoughts on Mutilators
- They are bad at killing hordes, bad at killing MEQ because of very high variance and they are bad at killing vehicules because of said variance AND their max Strength is 8 but most of the time you will be around 7.
- Getting into melee range has always been the trickiest part of a melee unit and Mutilators are incredibly bad at getting into melee range : either you have to deal with the dreadful M4 or you have to deepstrike them but unfortunately, they don't have access to icons thus they can't even get a charge reroll through Icon of Wrath.
- Even with some PA stuff (Mutilators getting a charge easily with the EC stratagem Honor the Prince), why in the name of the Warp would you want to use it on Mutilators when you take into consideration point 1 ?
I dunno,also they are the single most fugly thing in all of chaos model wise.
Heck i prefer the cartoon possesed over them any day of the week.
Further i ain't paying 35 pts for such an unreliable pile of failcast. I can get a 5 man csm termite squad with chainaxes Instead...
None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.
Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.
CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.
Red Corsair wrote: None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.
Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.
CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.
Tbf, mutilators never worked especially because of bad movement.
And yes i think you have the size creep (really at this point it's an escalation) and the Point of it out.
Red Corsair wrote: None of this helps. If everyone goes down, the game just gets more absurd while nothing is balanced out.
Make an 1850 list with your 7th ed book, then make one at 2k from 8th. Hell just make a 2k list from the index then from the current point listings lol. Just look at how much the armies swelled between editions. GW just keeps finding ways for folks to be excited to pack more plastic onto the same tables.
CA19 won't fix anything. They needed to increase points across every army, then decide wich specific units needed to cost less then others.
Not sure about that, my 7th ed Dark Eldar list would have been pretty similar in terms of number of models. It's worth remembering that when the indexes came out almost everything went up in points between editions.
Then your list was probably an edge case. I had a coven army that was a corpse thief claw and grotesquerie with urien and a haemi at 1750.
That same list is currently 1340. Thats a pretty major difference, my kabal and cult themed armies had similar drops.
But you get the point, I am not gonna post every build from every faction I own as I own large collections from 8 factions.
Thats probably why I notice more then some folks, all my lists drop roughly the same with the rare exception of the odd army like my Necrons last year.
Constantly pushing points down is shrinking the design space more and more.
A marine is 12 (with its bucket of special rules now), a Guardsman is 4 (should be 5) and everything in between has to fit in there.
There simply isn't going to be room left for nuance.
Armigers getting into the point territory of Dreadnoughts.
Stop making everything that is bad cheaper and make the good stuff more expensive instead. Give yourself room to design in ffs...
Red Corsair wrote: Then your list was probably an edge case. I had a coven army that was a corpse thief claw and grotesquerie with urien and a haemi at 1750.
That same list is currently 1340. Thats a pretty major difference, my kabal and cult themed armies had similar drops.
But you get the point, I am not gonna post every build from every faction I own as I own large collections from 8 factions.
Thats probably why I notice more then some folks, all my lists drop roughly the same with the rare exception of the odd army like my Necrons last year.
I do get your point, but then I loked back through my 7th ed codexes and have realised that for the three Eldar factions and Tyranids, thats just not true. In fact, whilst Craftworlds, Drukhari and Nids come out as a bit of a wash, Harlequins are notably more expensive across the code this edition than they were last.
Also, there's no chance in hell you could have saved 400pts across just 5 Talos and Urien, thats closer to 150.
agree, not only is that absurd 
