proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...
but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"
..considering the random removals of stuff in the sisters weapons kit and the bizarre canoness- still with no jump pack mind, if they are relaxing on the "no model no rules" mentality, that had to be really recent indeed. id quite like that to be the case, but i just don't buy it.
By the same token there's nothing stopping GW from reversing that silly decision and letting units like Trueborn be used and get points adjustments or other updates as needed, they've certainly had plenty of opportunity to do so, not least the first PA book or this CA. But no, they're all being sent to "Legends" whilst Marines are getting new units based on the same principles that are seing similar units being stamped out of other books.
You are of course entitled to keep your head firmly buried in the sand and pretend that this is all fine and that none Marine players are just making things up for the sake of it.
Truthfully, I never saw trueborn (and the wych equivalent) as anything other than a stop-gap entry in a codex that had too few units, a design policy they jettisoned once the mini-armies (Ad Mech, GSC, Custodes, etc) started coming out.
They came out of nowhere and vanished just as quickly.
E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.
Grots in the current competitive environment are being used to fill cheap detachments. For reasons I can only scratch my head at, GW only seems to want Guard to be able to do that. It's not that Grots are worth 4ppm, it's that the CP from Battalions are worth a minimum points cost. It's the exact same reason that Cultists, despite also being worse than Guardsmen in every way, were brought up to 5ppm. Now they're going back down to 4ppm, again for unknown reasons.
My guess is that GW is moving forward now saying "if a model is around the strength of a Cultist, it should be 4ppm, because players are taking them to fill required slots". I wouldn't be surprised if we see Neophyte Hybrids going down to 4ppm. In fact, it would make me VERY happy if they did!
And there's no way any game designer with even hald a working brain synapse would think grot, guardsmen and hybrid are all worth same.
Too bad gw doesn'" have even amateur game designer let alone professional.
E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.
I'm absolutly not for a nerf for grots but team USA played a list with 180+ grots at ETC 2019. I think it was played before in other non ETC Team events. I'm not sure it was played a all in solo events.
Umm etc isn't good indicator though as due to system armies have individual purposes with some lists there made deliberately lose but lose little.
By the same token there's nothing stopping GW from reversing that silly decision and letting units like Trueborn be used and get points adjustments or other updates as needed, they've certainly had plenty of opportunity to do so, not least the first PA book or this CA. But no, they're all being sent to "Legends" whilst Marines are getting new units based on the same principles that are seing similar units being stamped out of other books.
You are of course entitled to keep your head firmly buried in the sand and pretend that this is all fine and that none Marine players are just making things up for the sake of it.
Truthfully, I never saw trueborn (and the wych equivalent) as anything other than a stop-gap entry in a codex that had too few units, a design policy they jettisoned once the mini-armies (Ad Mech, GSC, Custodes, etc) started coming out.
They came out of nowhere and vanished just as quickly.
The trueborns and bloodbrides both have actual lore surroundign them, and them getting access to special weapons is fits it. Still, our codex saw so many units be thrown away (Most importantly all our HQs with mobiity options) that it feels like its missing many units. The fact that the army is effectively split in 3 doesnt help stop that feeling.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: waiting to see the wraith units and DA units personally. Shouldn't be too long now I suppose.
By the same token there's nothing stopping GW from reversing that silly decision and letting units like Trueborn be used and get points adjustments or other updates as needed, they've certainly had plenty of opportunity to do so, not least the first PA book or this CA. But no, they're all being sent to "Legends" whilst Marines are getting new units based on the same principles that are seing similar units being stamped out of other books.
You are of course entitled to keep your head firmly buried in the sand and pretend that this is all fine and that none Marine players are just making things up for the sake of it.
Truthfully, I never saw trueborn (and the wych equivalent) as anything other than a stop-gap entry in a codex that had too few units, a design policy they jettisoned once the mini-armies (Ad Mech, GSC, Custodes, etc) started coming out.
They came out of nowhere and vanished just as quickly.
The trueborns and bloodbrides both have actual lore surroundign them, and them getting access to special weapons is fits it. Still, our codex saw so many units be thrown away (Most importantly all our HQs with mobiity options) that it feels like its missing many units. The fact that the army is effectively split in 3 doesnt help stop that feeling.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: waiting to see the wraith units and DA units personally. Shouldn't be too long now I suppose.
proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...
but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"
..considering the random removals of stuff in the sisters weapons kit and the bizarre canoness- still with no jump pack mind, if they are relaxing on the "no model no rules" mentality, that had to be really recent indeed. id quite like that to be the case, but i just don't buy it.
yeah GW's been inconsistant about this that's true which is annoying as before the 8th cycle finished people where basicly locked in a "will they or won't they" cycle insofar as their modelless options went
Galas wrote: I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.
Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.
Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.
And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).
Thank you for posting that imateria. I was about to lose it, I wanted to throttle these people saying how it's so easy to convert the intercessor death company unit.
Like how many units have we lost that were so easy to kitbash. And why is it that space marines and guard get this exception.
proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...
but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"
If they are stabbing you in the back its probaly not a complex.
But hey the "My chosen faction is fine, who cares about anyone else" is not healthy either.
Oh and before you play that card (yet again) STILL A MARINE PLAYER
Emicrania wrote: I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling that orks might loose more stuff from Legends than all other codex together.
Tbh, that is only because dark eldar Are now a skeleton dex
I do remember I calculated how many options we lost and it was a pretty scary number. I was really hoping for some Pts drops for orks in this CA as I sent a lot of suggestions to the 40kdev team from my experiences. However, my experience is never tournament level so maybe people were squeezing the blood that I couldn't squeeze. I recently (within the last 2 years) entered a tournament with a pretty standard Evil Sunz ork army and lost turn 2 with a 90% wipe of my army against some stuff that had an unequal chance of hitting and wounding (removed the whole fun of the game in my mind...).
However, I do not seriously believe the 4pts grot rumour as it would be insane. However, I remember last time everyone said cultists and some other units were going up and when people clearly explained why that was bad the major argument was everything was going up. Then everything went down and the poor Chaos players lost out. So, crazy stuff could happen... that's what you get for paying for a nerf to your army.
Not Online!!! wrote: So to summarize, we have not seen any fw, orkz,necrons, not much tau .
And can’t read almost any of the Death Guard stuff :(
This was posted in the DG Tactica thread - can't comment on the validity until CA drops obviously.
Cultist down 1pt
Land raider down 20pt
Terminator Lord down 10pt
Predator down 5pt
Rhino up 15pt
Spawn down 5pt
Helbrute down 20pt
MPC down 15pt
MBH down 15pt
Possessed down 3pt
Pox down 2pt
Sorcerer down 10pt
Terminator sorcerer down 2pts
Typhus down 20pt
Plaguebearers up 1pt
Combi melta down 4pt
Entropy cannon down 5pt
Plague spewer down 2pt
proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...
but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"
..considering the random removals of stuff in the sisters weapons kit and the bizarre canoness- still with no jump pack mind, if they are relaxing on the "no model no rules" mentality, that had to be really recent indeed. id quite like that to be the case, but i just don't buy it.
"No model, no rules" is fake. The skaven clanrat box was for slaves and clanrats, warriors and trueborn were same box (trueborn have also existed since 5th and only 8th ed codex didn't include them), for guard (the guardsmen, vets and conscripts) were all the same box. Also for various models in the rules they later made some models otherwise hellpit abomination (which took ages for GW to finally make btw) wouldn't have been a thing back in old fantasy and a good bunch of other things wouldn't have been made for guard. Yes they did drop some but space marines have gotten far more models than a lot of other factions.
I'd like to hear the excuse for the fact dark eldar only had the void raven, re-vamped hq's in plastic while also having no bike or mount of any kind (totally unnecessary because most eldar aspect warriors are still metal or finecast and they got a wraithknight and flyers) and the re-vamped wracks with a now completely worthless special weapon (ossefactor). We then get incubi revamped in plastic with no points or rules change which while pretty once again we didn't need and drazhar which was actually decent. That's pretty much all we have gotten since 5th ed. Meanwhile every edition space marines get several new toys (transports, vehicles, infantry of all kinds as well as ripping off units of other armies when they can't have something). I mean at this point the only way for space marines to rip off chaos any more is to make a space marine version of that flying fire turkey chaos has (heldrake?) only making it much better.
Dark eldar actually had our hq's thrown away including vect which is the leader of the dark eldar because you know a successor space marine chapter master, multiple heroes in various chapters and so on are far more needed than the leader of your entire faction overall. I imagine the preferential treatment is due to faction popularity and the fact space marines are the special snowflakes of 40k. I enjoy the less popular and generic factions but GW makes me not want to sometimes.
I apologize but I have no real sympathy for tau, space marines and eldar. So many other armies have been shafted more frequently than them and they have each gotten a lot more love. 8th has been fairly kind to dark eldar for the most part with rules but forgive me if I don't care for issues from the big 3 OP factions.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The skaven clanrat box was for slaves and clanrats, warriors and trueborn were same box
Which came first: Clanrat box or Chapterhouse? Honest question.
So was this all the chapter house thing? I have heard that but I feel like there had to have been a way around some of this. Besides I feel like the 3 popular factions i mentioned have gotten a lot more loving than a lot of others. I'd love to have some sort of super-heavy or characters on bikes. I even think I heard dark eldar used to have that. Now however I just can't help but feel things are lacking.
Even when I played guard they got a lot in 5th edition and then baneblades as well as wyverns and some other units. Granted I stopped playing my imperial guard some time in 5th edition 40k to move on to Fantasy in 7th ed during the tail end of that edition but I feel like guard's made out decently. Most love dark eldar got was in 5th model-wise and then game-wise in 8th maybe. Currently dark eldar might not be great but I just can't feel sorry for eldar, marines (as well as space wolves) and tau. They were too OP for too long.
-As others have said Poxwalkers are only down 1 point at 5pts each.
-I can’t see any helbrute point drops.
-it is to blurry to see what plague marines cost.
-actually other than a few units you can’t see many it the DG points.
A loose summary but this was during the Kirby era when GW siced their lawyers on anything possibly related to their IP. Chapter house was a 3rd party that made conversion bits and in some cases models for models Games Workshop didn't make. I know part of the problem in addition to the conversion bits was they either modeled or said in the description to be used with X GW kit. I don't remember exactly what ones, but one I am pretty sure was Thunderwolf Calvary. So GW sued them on a massive list of infringement charges. The went to court and had a big long drawn out battle where GW tried to argue that their IP was completely and totally unique and was never influenced in any way by any other source of fiction. So like for example, Tau battle suits have absolutely no influence from Asia.
Anyway, they won about half and lost others so it was basically a wash. But from that point on, everything became trademarked. That is when the names started switching from Imperial Guard to Astra Militarium and so on. It also became a semi-standard to not include units that didn't have a model and because this was the Kirby era, conversion were heresy. Except of course there were exceptions for various Imperium armies which of course frustrated everyone else for the double standard. It is also seen as a reason a lot of fun, new 5e units were squatted in future editions. For example, dark eldar losing Vect plus a half dozen other special characters because they had no model support.
Wraithknight at -45 doesnt solve the problem of it occupying a LoW slot....it needs to be a heavy support choice, period. Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
quickfuze wrote: Wraithknight at -45 doesnt solve the problem of it occupying a LoW slot....it needs to be a heavy support choice, period. Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
Supreme Command with Spiritseer, 2 wraithseers, wraithguard in a serpent and the wraithknight.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
quickfuze wrote: Wraithknight at -45 doesnt solve the problem of it occupying a LoW slot....it needs to be a heavy support choice, period. Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
Do we know those leaks are accurate though?
If its only 5 things getting points adjustments seem bit meh..
However, I heard rumours star cannons will go up... Again seems BS but who knows.. This will affect a lot of builds if true.
45 pts drop certainly makes sword and board WK interesting imo… Distraction carnifex Dialled up to 12
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
ERJAK wrote: As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Well, I try not to space it out too much- for sake of space. I should probably use spoiler tags a bit more.
But I was responding to the rumor of a potential points increase on Rhinos.
But now that you mention Sisters, Rhinos and that Chassis' Variants (and possibly even Land Raiders?) might always have a good spot in the Sororitas army. It'd be cool to ensure those units always have a place, and Tech-Sisters sounds... fun.
Get your mind out of the gutter, that is not what a Mechadendrite is for.
quickfuze wrote: Wraithknight at -45 doesnt solve the problem of it occupying a LoW slot....it needs to be a heavy support choice, period. Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
Supreme Command with Spiritseer, 2 wraithseers, wraithguard in a serpent and the wraithknight.
I was thinking skip the Wave Serpent and deep strike a big unit of Wraithblades, but yeah sup command isn't a liability by any means.
quickfuze wrote: Wraithknight at -45 doesnt solve the problem of it occupying a LoW slot....it needs to be a heavy support choice, period. Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
Why? If so why not the same for ik, ck, baneblades, etc?
I'm not attacking I'd just like to know why that particular 24 wound, t8, can fall back and still charge/shoot, still shoot heavy weapons at full bs after moving huge model gets to be heavy support while all the rest are low.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Brometheus wrote: This is precisely why they keep pushing publications on folks. Vigilus.. Faith n Fury.. People keep buying it.
Pull a Sonic the Hedgehog and tell em it's silly.
What's going to be funny is, they'll do 9th edition eventually. And when they do, if they release an Index... I'd laugh hysterically if people just flat-out ignored every book GW put out after that and made the Index the only source for tournaments and the like. If the tournaments stick to their guns, and run their tournaments their way and use an Index- what's the worst that can happen?
GW can throw a hissy fit, and threaten to quit "supporting" events- but really, what "support" are they lending tournaments- a thumbs up and a "good job for using our stuff"? This ain't an MMORPG, they can't unplug a server. They can't come and take away our toys and confiscate our Index. All they can do is try and release new shinies that only work if you have the special $50.00 book, and hope that people fold. A lot of people will, but as long as those competitive tournament organizers stick to the established standard and don't deviate from it and fold... all GW can do is be mad.
Nothing gained, nothing lost. They'll re-evaluate the way they push out rules after that, I assure you.
I dare say it. I DARE...
People could take something as simple as an Index, form a group and establish the uses, applications, variations, and modifications of the Index and run with it for years without GW so much as firing up Microsoft Word to write a single rule. Inquisitor, Necromunda, Mordheim, and multiple other games have functioned for years without GW shoving a brand new "essential supplements" into the game.
But then again, this is me thinking that for just a little while- the majority of the competitive crowd could set aside their eagerness to win and stick to principles to improve the game for everyone, and while there's a lot of them that are honest and good people... the top performers in the competitive crowd consistently get caught cheating just to win. So, I expect this to happen at some point where I get to have coffee with bigfoot while we watch the unicorns run though the fields where the little aliens park their UFO to drop off Elvis- and even then, I'd say it's unlikely to happen.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
Brometheus wrote: This is precisely why they keep pushing publications on folks. Vigilus.. Faith n Fury.. People keep buying it.
Pull a Sonic the Hedgehog and tell em it's silly.
What's going to be funny is, they'll do 9th edition eventually. And when they do, if they release an Index... I'd laugh hysterically if people just flat-out ignored every book GW put out after that and made the Index the only source for tournaments and the like. If the tournaments stick to their guns, and run their tournaments their way and use an Index- what's the worst that can happen?
GW can throw a hissy fit, and threaten to quit "supporting" events- but really, what "support" are they lending tournaments- a thumbs up and a "good job for using our stuff"? This ain't an MMORPG, they can't unplug a server. They can't come and take away our toys and confiscate our Index. All they can do is try and release new shinies that only work if you have the special $50.00 book, and hope that people fold. A lot of people will, but as long as those competitive tournament organizers stick to the established standard and don't deviate from it and fold... all GW can do is be mad.
Nothing gained, nothing lost. They'll re-evaluate the way they push out rules after that, I assure you.
I dare say it. I DARE...
People could take something as simple as an Index, form a group and establish the uses, applications, variations, and modifications of the Index and run with it for years without GW so much as firing up Microsoft Word to write a single rule. Inquisitor, Necromunda, Mordheim, and multiple other games have functioned for years without GW shoving a brand new "essential supplements" into the game.
But then again, this is me thinking that for just a little while- the majority of the competitive crowd could set aside their eagerness to win and stick to principles to improve the game for everyone, and while there's a lot of them that are honest and good people... the top performers in the competitive crowd consistently get caught cheating just to win. So, I expect this to happen at some point where I get to have coffee with bigfoot while we watch the unicorns run though the fields where the little aliens park their UFO to drop off Elvis- and even then, I'd say it's unlikely to happen.
they're not going to put out an index for 9th edition, they put out an index as a quick stop gap to get people playing when 8th edition made such major changes to the game old codices where unusable. they did this during the 2nd ot 3rd change over too. other then that, all codices.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
Yeah, but all the Imperial/Chaos Knights in close combat loadout get a bonus attack and a better Weapon Skill just for showing up. The Wraithknight doesn't. Not to mention Imperial/Chaos get free 3 CP if they take 3 of them in a super-heavy detachment. Wraithknights don't.
Just a sort of tangent here, but worth consideration-
CA is an annual compilation of updates and rules and point values, etc. That's all fine and good. They're doing the same thing with Kill Team and Blackstone Fortress, apparently.
...any reason why there hasn't been something like a compiled book of nothing but missions/scenarios for 40k? Like, maybe a variety of Matched/Open/Narrative play mission in one big book?
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
Wraithknights are considerably cheaper than baneblade chassis and way cheaper than fellblade chassis and neither one of those have a way to get that invul through points/equipment. Same goes for stompas.
Imperial/chaos knights are maybe a little under costed or other low are over costed but anything with 20+ wounds and t8 or greater should be low.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
So at the new points a naked sword wraith knight is 330 points. That is 80 points fewer than my kytan who has the same profile but 2 wounds less. Admittedly it has a ranged weapon and can regen 1 wound a turn, but I doubt it is worth an 80 point gap.
On no world should a 24 wound t8 model with a 3+/5++ be anything less than a lord of war.
Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
Glad to see the points drop on CSM, I really like to include such basic infantry units in my armies. I wonder if the rumours about Daemon Engines getting cheaper are true as well, sound almost too nice to be true.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
I don't think a committee of people who can't even agree if a Wraith Knight should be a LOW are going to make much headway designing a system to cover 30+ years of model releases with a massive variety of lore and model design to represent, 8th isn't perfect but does a pretty good job all things considered. Move to online living rulebooks and it would be great as number of rule sources is my biggest complaint.
Wraith Knight should be a LOW, all day long, every day ;-)
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
Not really.
The game actually was in a really good spot over the summer, pre-Marines Codex. Not perfect, certainly. Chaos was probably too strong, but stuff like GSC, Eldar, Tau, Knights, Custodes, Necrons and Orks were all competing and winning events.
Sure, Marines (incl. Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc.. as well as Tyranids and Harlequins) needed a bit of a boost to bring them into the competition. And Eldar/Necrons/Tau, while competitive, were (are) stuck in a stale mono-build with most of the Codex being trash.
But overall, the diversity was the best it's ever been in my memory. Overall lethality IMO could've gone down a bit to negate the need for silly terrain, and there was room for gradual improvement. But ultimately, they pissed away a pretty good game with Nu-Marines.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more.
The Stompa says hi.
Spoiler:
E - gonna share this here too, since it's relevant;
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though Orks are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth? Are GW actively trying to ostracise their own player base now?
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more.
The Stompa says hi.
E - gonna share this here too, since it's relevant;
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though Orks are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth? Are GW actively trying to ostracise their own player base now?
I can't see it sorry, there's a page with "grey knights, inquisitors and adeptus sororitas" immediately followed by "adeptus custodes" which is blatantly not alphabetical order nor is there a page with any necrons or assassins on?
Edit: You were looking at the 2018 summary, grattis.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more.
The Stompa says hi.
E - gonna share this here too, since it's relevant;
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though Orks are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth? Are GW actively trying to ostracise their own player base now?
I can't see it sorry, there's a page with "grey knights, inquisitors and adeptus sororitas" immediately followed by "adeptus custodes" which is blatantly not alphabetical order nor is there a page with any necrons or assassins on?
Edit: You were looking at the 2018 summary, grattis.
Yeah looks like DUDEFACE is right.
I DID however manage to make out some fw stuff! Looks like leviathan siege drills and claws are both going down 10 points! Same for dreadnought chainfists!
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
Yeah, but all the Imperial/Chaos Knights in close combat loadout get a bonus attack and a better Weapon Skill just for showing up. The Wraithknight doesn't. Not to mention Imperial/Chaos get free 3 CP if they take 3 of them in a super-heavy detachment. Wraithknights don't.
Nor do ig get free 3 cp if they take 3 baneblade. Baneblades to hs! And pylon! Pylons don't get trait on aux sh det either. Eldar does.
Wk into hs is ridiculous idea. Buff it if need but it's not hs material any more imperial knight is.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
I don't think a committee of people who can't even agree if a Wraith Knight should be a LOW are going to make much headway designing a system to cover 30+ years of model releases with a massive variety of lore and model design to represent, 8th isn't perfect but does a pretty good job all things considered. Move to online living rulebooks and it would be great as number of rule sources is my biggest complaint.
Wraith Knight should be a LOW, all day long, every day ;-)
They did with fantasy and epic outclassing gw hands down. 40k ain't different
Please read the CA announcement. Just like the GHB the CA will now contain all points for all factions and all units regardless of whether they get point updates or not. So Orks are in CA. Whether they get any point changes is another matter.
E - gonna share this here too, since it's relevant;
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though Orks are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth? Are GW actively trying to ostracise their own player base now?
Major flaw with logic. Gw said ca will contain all point values. Changed or not. Ergo whether orks get changes or not points are there.
Plenty stuff we haven"' seen any hint yet. We haven't seen pages of necrons either and they get changes
Nor do ig get free 3 cp if they take 3 baneblade. Baneblades to hs! And pylon! Pylons don't get trait on aux sh det either. Eldar does.
Wk into hs is ridiculous idea. Buff it if need but it's not hs material any more imperial knight is.
Not saying it needs to be HS. Sure it's a LoW. But it probably should get the basic benefits non-Eldar Knights get (or better yet, Chaos/Imperial Knights should lose some of the unnecessary freebies like +1 attack, +1 WS on close combat knights and/or extra CP for super-heavy detachments or the free 5++ without sacrificing a weapon arm to be in line with "regular" LoWs, as well as probably go up a bit in points, making the Gatling Cannon 2D6 shots instead of Flat 12 to be in line with the Suncannon, etc.., etc.. ).
At time of writing there are no Necron, Ork or Tau leaks that I'm aware of but that in no way means there aren't any changes. An Actual Englishman has caused a page of confusion by accidentally googling last years leaks and overreacting.
tneva82 wrote: It's not even mistake if nobody with access to book hasn't bothered to post ork/necron/whatever pictures
Maybe they're trying to spare us the pain. I know they're lowering some necron points, but if they hike up Destroyers/DDAs just because everyone uses them I'll cry. Tbh Destroyers need a drop (and their strat needs an increase).
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
A ruleset designed by Dakka is not a game I would be interested in playing.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
A ruleset designed by Dakka is not a game I would be interested in playing.
Contrary to popular belief, those that actually invest themselves in proposed rules etc, and do occaisionally change things up are not worse then GW.
Nor do ig get free 3 cp if they take 3 baneblade. Baneblades to hs! And pylon! Pylons don't get trait on aux sh det either. Eldar does.
Wk into hs is ridiculous idea. Buff it if need but it's not hs material any more imperial knight is.
Not saying it needs to be HS. Sure it's a LoW. But it probably should get the basic benefits non-Eldar Knights get (or better yet, Chaos/Imperial Knights should lose some of the unnecessary freebies like +1 attack, +1 WS on close combat knights and/or extra CP for super-heavy detachments or the free 5++ without sacrificing a weapon arm to be in line with "regular" LoWs, as well as probably go up a bit in points, making the Gatling Cannon 2D6 shots instead of Flat 12 to be in line with the Suncannon, etc.., etc.. ).
The straight melee wraithknight is cheaper than the melee knight and the shield/gun wraithknight is cheaper than the gun/chainsword knight.
Baneblades or more expensive and can't get an invul and fellblades and stompas are WAY more expensive and don't get invuls.
The points drop brings wraithknights closer to where they should be. Yes they were overpriced but 45 points cheaper fixes. If you want stats same as a knight's you'll have to give up some of the points drop.
At least you're low doesn't take up half your points.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: But now that you mention Sisters, Rhinos and that Chassis' Variants (and possibly even Land Raiders?) might always have a good spot in the Sororitas army. It'd be cool to ensure those units always have a place, and Tech-Sisters sounds... fun.
Get your mind out of the gutter, that is not what a Mechadendrite is for.
Sisters never had access to Land Raider chassis before, it is more likely that Chaos is going to be where it all goes.
And it's really only your mind in the gutter dude. Only thing I thought about was "How can we make the mechadendrite throw burning prometheum at the enemy? How much religious bling can we add on it before it crumbles under its on weight?", the kind of questions a real SoB player would ask themselves .
Adeptus Doritos wrote: But now that you mention Sisters, Rhinos and that Chassis' Variants (and possibly even Land Raiders?) might always have a good spot in the Sororitas army. It'd be cool to ensure those units always have a place, and Tech-Sisters sounds... fun.
Get your mind out of the gutter, that is not what a Mechadendrite is for.
Sisters never had access to Land Raider chassis before, it is more likely that Chaos is going to be where it all goes.
And it's really only your mind in the gutter dude. Only thing I thought about was "How can we make the mechadendrite throw burning prometheum at the enemy? How much religious bling can we add on it before it crumbles under its on weight?", the kind of questions a real SoB player would ask themselves .
A lying heretic, I HAVE SEEN YOUR METAL REPENTIAS /J
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more.
The Stompa says hi.
E - gonna share this here too, since it's relevant;
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though Orks are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth? Are GW actively trying to ostracise their own player base now?
I can't see it sorry, there's a page with "grey knights, inquisitors and adeptus sororitas" immediately followed by "adeptus custodes" which is blatantly not alphabetical order nor is there a page with any necrons or assassins on?
Edit: You were looking at the 2018 summary, grattis.
Yea my bad, I was looking at the BoK leaks from last year.
I did find it odd no one was discussing the Ad Mech and IK changes.
I don't have any. I do have DCA, but I used Privateer Press "Daughters of the flame" models, painted in all gold (BLING!). And I even green-stuffed away the buttcrack and the bra-looking breastplate.
Picture of the original models (I don't have pictures of mine, I should make some):
I don't have any. I do have DCA, but I used Privateer Press "Daughters of the flame" models, painted in all gold (BLING!). And I even green-stuffed away the buttcrack and the bra-looking breastplate.
Picture of the original models (I don't have pictures of mine, I should make some):
The straight melee wraithknight is cheaper than the melee knight and the shield/gun wraithknight is cheaper than the gun/chainsword knight.
No. It's not
Gallant is 352 base (with stubber)
CC Despoiler is 372 base (with stubber)
CC Wraithknight is 375 without shoulder-weapons
Rampager is 387 base, but get's exploding 6s on top.
So base Gallant would need to be
- Lose the Fist-army to get a 5++
- Lose 1 Attack
- Be WS 3+
- Lose the stubber
- Be 23 points more expensive
Kitane wrote: Don't forget the stratagems and relics available to the Gallant and to the Wraithknight.
Sure. Wraithknight cannot become a character, take WL-traits, relics, etc.., though inversely Eldar psychic support might be better for a single Wraithknight (though hard if you wanna run multiple). Imp. Knights have lots of dedicated Knight strats though.
quickfuze wrote: Also if rhinos really go up 15 points to 91 when the impulsor is 79 that is just fething DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER - BROOKM
I hate to be the doomsayer here, but I've been saying for quite some time that people shouldn't expect anything in terms of improving pre-Primaris Marines. I fully expect more and more OG Astartes units to get pushed toward the "Warhammer Legends" category that was mentioned and there won't be any real updates for them in terms of models or rules. I'm basing that off this Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/29/breaking-news-sisters-psykers-and-skeletonsgw-homepage-post-4/ (Down below all the fun stuff).
That being said, it's certainly GW's M.O. to push players towards buying the new shinies- even though many times, they're not very good at it because it does seem that they overestimate the effectiveness and practicality of some of their newer models (I don't think their playtesters are being very honest sometimes).
I actually believe- or at least, strongly hope that while all the old stuff will still be valid- there will be more options for our "Primaris Marines that will just be Space Marines from now on", because it's already pretty easy to kitbash older models with them, for the most part. I've already experimented with just using older Mark helmets, backpacks, and weapons from Standard Marines on Primaris bodies for the sake of "bigness"- with no real complaints from other players, only compliments. If these weaponry options were available for Marines with +1 Wound and +1 attack, and balanced accordingly with points and the like... I believe the transition could be smoother (and if all marines were rocking a Primaris Stat Line, I doubt people would gripe too much if someone put his classic Space Marines on the table).
I've no doubt GW will do a slow phase of changes to make all Marines Primaris- while doling out new units piecemeal until they up and officially say, "All Marines are now Primaris". It'd make them more money, and we'd probably go right along with it and eat it up while we complain about it.
As fun as this big wall of text is, Rhinos are 65pts before stormbolters, consistent with sister's prices.
Chaos Rhinos are not
No they're currently 70 before the combi bolter. 99.9% probability when ca drops they'll be 65 before the combi bolter.
You figure out a good reason why a wraithknight should be in the heavy support slot yet?
You mean other than it lacks the survivability AND firepower of every other comparable LoW AND costs about 25-33% more. Litterally only way to run one is sword and board just to get the invul same that a rampager knight gets for free
Wraithknights are considerably cheaper than baneblade chassis and way cheaper than fellblade chassis and neither one of those have a way to get that invul through points/equipment. Same goes for stompas.
Imperial/chaos knights are maybe a little under costed or other low are over costed but anything with 20+ wounds and t8 or greater should be low.
The big difference is that baneblade have amassing fire power and WK don`t. Stompa is in bad condition, mainly because of the point coast, but that is totally different topic.
But it will be smart not to include comparison to the cheaper melee with invul 5++ WK without any range weapons, to BB that have weapons with 72 inches range.
Yep lol those necron warriors are definitely worth more than a space marine.
What with their 4+ armor, no bolter drill, no shock assault, no doctrines, no atsknf, slower movement, no special or heavy weapon options, way worse chapter tactics, etc.
But if your opponent (somehow in a game if 8th edition 40k) doesn't wipe out the unit and they don't just fail their morale and run they get back up on a FIVE PLUS!!!!!
If everything gets points drops...nothing does. Personally I’d like to see at least some stuff (anything, really) get points hikes to stop the stealth-creep to 2500 pt games.
Honestly, having looked this over it does precisely nothing to help Necrons climb the tier list. All it does is drag up some of our worse variant lists to the level of our better lists.
So top marks for internal balance I guess. But yeah, Necrons still suck ass.
Yeah, I'm not seeing any big changes that will push Necrons to be able to compete with any of the other books. Especially since a lot of their core units didn't see any changes. Another miss.
greyknight12 wrote: If everything gets points drops...nothing does. Personally I’d like to see at least some stuff (anything, really) get points hikes to stop the stealth-creep to 2500 pt games.
greyknight12 wrote: If everything gets points drops...nothing does. Personally I’d like to see at least some stuff (anything, really) get points hikes to stop the stealth-creep to 2500 pt games.
Well, Marines play 2000 and everyone else gets 2500 points would be the obvious stop-gap until point changes in Chapter Approved 2020
But I suppose people (or at least TOs) like to go the tedious route.
That said, remember GW's flagship matched play events play 1750 by default, as well as some 1000 points tournament series. Nobody there plays 2000 points since about 2017.
still no notes yet about IG or Custodes that aren't FW? at this rate so much is getting reduced i have to agree- the best the factions that haven't been shown can hope for on the whole is to break even.
greyknight12 wrote: If everything gets points drops...nothing does. Personally I’d like to see at least some stuff (anything, really) get points hikes to stop the stealth-creep to 2500 pt games.
We know the CHE & Razorwing went up as well as Plaguebearers. I do agree that if everything goes down, than "what's the point?", but I think a good approach would be this: About 40-50% of total units get a decrease About 10-15% get an increase The remaining greater than 40-50% total units stay the same
If they stay within those parameters, subtle changes will have a decent impact.
My personal hope is that the Munitorum Field Manual being produced THIS year, and not in CA2017 or CA2018 indicates a sort of "final" settling of points Almost all factions have been updated since 8E dropped and I believe all Indexes are now invalid (save certain unit/wargear options we all assume will soon become "Legends") So CA2019 can come with an appendix of all points costs and it's unlikely much will change until 9E, or at the very least only about a half dozen changes for CA2020
Bdrone wrote: still no notes yet about IG or Custodes that aren't FW? at this rate so much is getting reduced i have to agree- the best the factions that haven't been shown can hope for on the whole is to break even.
I am seriously wondering if this works out to the favour of us the players or just to bring the game up to stealth 2500 pts.
Considering that Sorcerers are now 80 Pts? which is just daft imo as a chaos player
Edit:
I'd also love to see what happens with the FW index armies.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
Bah gawd, that's the 9th ed music!
By the way, Necrons deserved a point drop but it's not going to be enough to change the list meta imho. Needless to say, it's not going to make them competitive since most other armies are receiving a drop as well.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
The bottom was broken since the start of 8th:
with grotz 3 ppm. Militia even tough worse then conscripts and IG at 4ppm and cultists at 5 ppm even though worse then IS.
Bleh. Immortals are in sorry state these days, gauss version being particularly bad. And warriors are very bad. So tesla immortal tax continues and other troop options stay junk.
Deathmarks down 17 to 14
Flayed Ones down 17 to 13
Neither come viable.
Lychguard w/ Sword 'n Board down 28 to 26 ??
Lychguard w/ Warscythe down 28 to 26 ??
Nice though still too expensive. But less wasted points in casual games.
Canoptek Wraiths down 48 to 42
Destroyers no change
Tomb Blades down 28 to 21
Nice though destroyers should go down and stratagem go up.
Ghost Ark down 145 to 120
With warriors junk irrelevant. Unless the ark chassis with gauss flayer is alone worth 120 pts.
Heavy Destroyers down 50 to 37
If it applies to regular squadron upgrades yey.
Monolith down 320 to 300
GW must be joking right? Need way more than that. Starting with new datasheet to fix the mechanical problems points don't solve.
Night Scythe down 135 to 115
Whole necron transport system needs overhaul to be worth it. Core issue not solvable with points.
Nice but alas doesn't really change internal balance. Optimal list stays same. Just bit more stuff. Bad units are still bad.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
Well gee no kidding. CA point chanes are precisely motivated by sales, not balane. Been so from the get-go
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
I don’t think they care enough. If there wasn’t stubborn demand from tourney folks, GW would just as well drop points and stick with power levels.
Emicrania wrote: Primaris have to go up. The rest need point adjustment. Either they do it, either we start to play smaller army.
I don't agree the Primaris HAVE to go up. Maybe a 1-2ppm increase for Intercessors would be fine, but it's hardly needed.
But I 100% agree with you that everyone should stop playing 2000pts and jump down to 1750pts or even 1500pts as standard
Emicrania wrote: The Stompa is the worst LoW of all game hands down.
T8 40W 3+ means 23 points a W
And about 9 W vs knight in shooting
the stompa is probably the worst GWmodel in the game right now, theres no point in repeating it over and over again, nobody is arguing against it.
I fully expect it to get a hefty pts drop, we'll see when the orks pts changes get leaked
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deTox91 wrote: Hmmm I have a feeling that whoever wrote the decrease amount didn't factor in weapons costs
the actual picture is on the subreddit i linked, i dont play necrons and copypasted from a comment there.
Would you take a Stompa if it was free? Then it's still better than a geminae superia.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: Primaris have to go up. The rest need point adjustment. Either they do it, either we start to play smaller army.
...Primaris are not really the reason space marines are winning games. Since the IH nerf, Intercessors are the best primaris unit and...they're still just intercessors.
greyknight12 wrote: If everything gets points drops...nothing does. Personally I’d like to see at least some stuff (anything, really) get points hikes to stop the stealth-creep to 2500 pt games.
Well, Marines play 2000 and everyone else gets 2500 points would be the obvious stop-gap until point changes in Chapter Approved 2020
But I suppose people (or at least TOs) like to go the tedious route.
That said, remember GW's flagship matched play events play 1750 by default, as well as some 1000 points tournament series. Nobody there plays 2000 points since about 2017.
Yeah, because a tournament got won by an Ork player who slow played every game for 5 rounds and never went past turn 3.
People who bring this up always forget the change was due to incompetent TOs, not GW being proactive.
The straight melee wraithknight is cheaper than the melee knight and the shield/gun wraithknight is cheaper than the gun/chainsword knight.
No. It's not
Gallant is 352 base (with stubber)
CC Despoiler is 372 base (with stubber)
CC Wraithknight is 375 without shoulder-weapons
Rampager is 387 base, but get's exploding 6s on top.
So base Gallant would need to be
- Lose the Fist-army to get a 5++
- Lose 1 Attack
- Be WS 3+
- Lose the stubber
- Be 23 points more expensive
To be perfectly balanced to the Wraithknight.
You're not factoring in the 45 point drop the wraithknight is getting. I agree it could use better rules but gw won't do that in ca. I give up. We've derailed the topic enough.
I'll just go back to waiting to see if my fellblade no longer costs nearly 3 times as much as the wraithknight.
Emicrania wrote: Primaris have to go up. The rest need point adjustment. Either they do it, either we start to play smaller army.
I don't agree the Primaris HAVE to go up. Maybe a 1-2ppm increase for Intercessors would be fine, but it's hardly needed.
But I 100% agree with you that everyone should stop playing 2000pts and jump down to 1750pts or even 1500pts as standard
-
Issue with primaris being this cheap with these bazillion rules is it's pretty darn hard to get rest fit in scale. Necron warriors at 10 pts would still be weak compared to them but 8-9 pts and it's pushing too close to stuff like boyz, ig troopers etc.
Dude eliminators, aggressors and centurions are like 15/20% underpriced. As are the stratagems and the HQ.
fething GW destroying the meta to peddle the numarines...
The models are awesome, why the feth they had to destroy everythung they worked for, is beyond me.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
A ruleset designed by Dakka is not a game I would be interested in playing.
Contrary to popular belief, those that actually invest themselves in proposed rules etc, and do occaisionally change things up are not worse then GW.
No one was saying it would be worse, just not the type of game they'd want to play(& I'd agree).
I'm just really interested to see how/which models get put into legends.
Pretty sure Tau and non FW Custodes are also missing.
I also haven't seen IG of any stripe or non FW sisters. with Sisters we saw the repressor (is that going in legends or isn't it?! id like to know!) and i guess people will skip over them since their book is just hitting circulation, but this things supposed to have ALL the points in it, so i wanna see em anyway.
On necron tactic thread good point about ghost ark points. For 120 pts you get ghost ark. For 110 pts you get 10 warriors. For the 10 pts difference you get:
Same amount of guns(rapid fire 10 S4 -1 D1 vs 10 rapid fire 1 same stats)
12" speed vs 5"
T6 vs T4
14 wounds vs 10 wounds
4+ save for both
Quantum shield
Fly
Repair automatically one vs RP which isn't even easy to get. Oh and you are immune to morale.
You have degrade but then again warriors degrade firepower per wound taken.
You lose out on h2h ability but really 1 WS3+ S4 attack per model isn't that good. Ability fly gives you better h2h ability by being able to flee.
Really only issue is they aren't troops. But for pure stats it's ghost ark 4ever. The warrior repair thing is just free waste of datasheet space.
Astra Militarum is missing. AdMech is missing. GSC is missing aside from the weapons (Mining Laser actually didn't go down, unlike some reports). Tau is missing. Orks is missing. Imperial Knights is missing. Grey Knights are missing. Little stuff like Sisters of Silence and Assassins, etc.. is missing. Eldar of all forms have been reported, but there're clearly some things missing and I'd love to see the pics.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
I don’t think they care enough. If there wasn’t stubborn demand from tourney folks, GW would just as well drop points and stick with power levels.
AoS was dying in its crib until points were added.
Its not 'tourney folks' demanding points. Its the vast vast majority of players from all across the board.
No one was saying it would be worse, just not the type of game they'd want to play(& I'd agree).
I'm just really interested to see how/which models get put into legends.
So people prefer illogical crappy non-working rules where rather than balance we get force fed sales tactics? Well humans have never been particularly logical creatures.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
It could easily be done with social media. Join a circle and propose and vote in real time for different rules sets. Develop aspects of rules like modules and plug them in to get the level of realism that you want. All of this is so doable that i am just witing for the moment that people realize that it must be done. Then i am so onboard ...
What i think might happen is that this no model no rules CCG approach to profit maximization through disposable and digital media e.g. a new codex every 2 years plus supplements in between to keep up, will bite GW in the patoot.
Emicrania wrote: Dude eliminators, aggressors and centurions are like 15/20% underpriced. As are the stratagems and the HQ.
fething GW destroying the meta to peddle the numarines...
The models are awesome, why the feth they had to destroy everythung they worked for, is beyond me.
Anyhow, is only ork left for leaks right?
How wonderful
Primaris are my opponent Saturday and I am taking index orks.
I wholeheartedly share your sentiment.
My bet is it was a mix of arrogance too many MBAs and cocaine... but plain old bad leadership was part of it too.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
I don’t think they care enough. If there wasn’t stubborn demand from tourney folks, GW would just as well drop points and stick with power levels.
AoS was dying in its crib until points were added.
Its not 'tourney folks' demanding points. Its the vast vast majority of players from all across the board.
You missed the point, points or power level they are both systems to gaig the relative strength of different models, AoS's launch was a failure because it didn't have either.
Emicrania wrote: Dude eliminators, aggressors and centurions are like 15/20% underpriced. As are the stratagems and the HQ.
fething GW destroying the meta to peddle the numarines...
The models are awesome, why the feth they had to destroy everythung they worked for, is beyond me.
Anyhow, is only ork left for leaks right?
How wonderful
Primaris are my opponent Saturday and I am taking index orks.
I wholeheartedly share your sentiment.
My bet is it was a mix of arrogance too many MBAs and cocaine... but plain old bad leadership was part of it too.
Or deliberate action. This sort of buffing one army to ridiculous level is modus operandi for GW.
Not Online!!! wrote: At this point i feel like to many units have gotten points drops.
Some of them even outright questonable.
This is definitely starting to feel like just inflating the scale of the game, as opposed to careful balancing. Looking at a 2000 point army from the start of 8th and seeing how much it would be worth now shows a pretty huge difference...
GW need to reinflate points values eventually. The bottom end of the scale in particular already feels very, very crowded with little room for nuance.
I don’t think they care enough. If there wasn’t stubborn demand from tourney folks, GW would just as well drop points and stick with power levels.
AoS was dying in its crib until points were added.
Its not 'tourney folks' demanding points. Its the vast vast majority of players from all across the board.
You missed the point, points or power level they are both systems to gaig the relative strength of different models, AoS's launch was a failure because it didn't have either.
And the more loose the system is the more prone to failure it is. Hence why powerlevel is horrible because its just a strictly worse version of points where balance is even further off.
macluvin wrote: Maybe 9E should be written by the community instead of GW... perks include never paying for rules update, having complete control over the rules instead of hoping GW takes a step in the right direction, not ever being forced by GW to buy the newest toy to be competitive, and less moaning and groaning about GW not knowing what it’s doing. Start with core rules, find out how to scratch everyone’s itch for how to represent the tactical depth of a conflict, then core rules for armies, then start adding legion tactics, and what not...
It could easily be done with social media. Join a circle and propose and vote in real time for different rules sets. Develop aspects of rules like modules and plug them in to get the level of realism that you want. All of this is so doable that i am just witing for the moment that people realize that it must be done. Then i am so onboard ...
What i think might happen is that this no model no rules CCG approach to profit maximization through disposable and digital media e.g. a new codex every 2 years plus supplements in between to keep up, will bite GW in the patoot.
why wait around for when people decree it must be done, just do it and put your home brew rules out there for people to adopt. the community is never as a whole going to rise up and say "WE WRITE OUR OWN RULES" and then magicly agree on said rules.
tneva82 wrote: On necron tactic thread good point about ghost ark points. For 120 pts you get ghost ark. For 110 pts you get 10 warriors. For the 10 pts difference you get:
Same amount of guns(rapid fire 10 S4 -1 D1 vs 10 rapid fire 1 same stats)
12" speed vs 5"
T6 vs T4
14 wounds vs 10 wounds
4+ save for both
Quantum shield
Fly
Repair automatically one vs RP which isn't even easy to get. Oh and you are immune to morale.
You have degrade but then again warriors degrade firepower per wound taken.
You lose out on h2h ability but really 1 WS3+ S4 attack per model isn't that good. Ability fly gives you better h2h ability by being able to flee.
Really only issue is they aren't troops. But for pure stats it's ghost ark 4ever. The warrior repair thing is just free waste of datasheet space.
RP isn't easy to get? its pretty darn easy to get. even without any support its 1/3 of "lost wounds" back every round. and the warriors CAN be more than 10 in a unit if you want. with some support a warrior squad easily restores 50% of their casualties each round.
Also the ark is more in risk from multi-damage. a warrior can't take more than one casualty per shot, an ark can take multiple damage (despite QS making a mess and making TOO MUCH damage a problem)
RP isn't easy to get? its pretty darn easy to get. even without any support its 1/3 of "lost wounds" back every round. and the warriors CAN be more than 10 in a unit if you want. with some support a warrior squad easily restores 50% of their casualties each round.
Also the ark is more in risk from multi-damage. a warrior can't take more than one casualty per shot, an ark can take multiple damage (despite QS making a mess and making TOO MUCH damage a problem)
Unit dies, no RP roll. Unless you cheat.
Warriors are T4 4+ W1 models. They die. In droves. Any competive army will simply blow entire unit off the board and no more RP.
I'm assuming necron player doesn't cheat and roll RP for destroyed units
Emicrania wrote: Primaris have to go up. The rest need point adjustment. Either they do it, either we start to play smaller army.
I don't agree the Primaris HAVE to go up. Maybe a 1-2ppm increase for Intercessors would be fine, but it's hardly needed.
But I 100% agree with you that everyone should stop playing 2000pts and jump down to 1750pts or even 1500pts as standard
-
Making intercessors more expensive is a better solution than making mid-tier infantry cheaper because they can't measure up to a 2W model with a 3+, ~3 attacks, and assault 3 S4 or heavy 1 multi-damage weapons
BoomWolf wrote: 5++ from cryptek?
20 warrior squads?
Missing a SINGLE WARRIOR to RNG can feth you up with a large portion coming back, undoing your effort?
Also, by the same logic, you dont apply repair on a destroyed ark. "they can kill the unit" is hardly a reasonable argument.
5++ isn't that much help. And 20 isn't that big help either. When you get used to losing 60+ orks in a turn you know 20 necron warriors isn't that big.
And yeah I'm not factoring ark healing either. It has occasionally done little bit by healing 1 wound after random throwback shot putting dda into better damage table which has generally more impact than say 4 healed up necron warriors. And even that's fairly low.
Warriors pay tons of points for ability that's easy for enemy to negate. Compared to benefits ark has like simply being tougher to begin with making harder to remove, FLY(which is the most powerful keyword in the whole game) and providing something necrons are lacking aka good screen against h2h units which can't be 3 pointed the RP is weak sauce.
BoomWolf wrote: 5++ from cryptek?
20 warrior squads?
Missing a SINGLE WARRIOR to RNG can feth you up with a large portion coming back, undoing your effort?
That's well over 300pts for the Warriors and a Cryptek, right?
I mean, a single Leman Russ Punisher w/ triple Heavy Bolters costs about half that, and averages 12 kills. A pair of them will reliably wipe the entire unit. If RNG bites me and they leave one or two remaining, presumably I have other units in a 1500pt list that are capable of shooting too, and they can finish the job.
I've played against Necrons a couple of times and once you wrap your head around needing to focus-fire single units down, it becomes pretty easy to deny RP. The bigger your unit, the harder they are to hide, and it's not unlikely that most of the opponent's army will be able to trace LOS to a blob of 20.
BoomWolf wrote: 5++ from cryptek?
20 warrior squads?
Missing a SINGLE WARRIOR to RNG can feth you up with a large portion coming back, undoing your effort?
That's well over 300pts for the Warriors and a Cryptek, right?
Well not well over. 220 for warriors, 95 for cryptek.
I've played against Necrons a couple of times and once you wrap your head around needing to focus-fire single units down, it becomes pretty easy to deny RP. The bigger your unit, the harder they are to hide, and it's not unlikely that most of the opponent's army will be able to trace LOS to a blob of 20.
Yep this :( Okay recently I have had 2x18 survive and get tons of RP but that's because I have been playing vs non-optimal GK list and GK's being one of the top contenders for the title of THE worst army in the game. Outside them even orks blow 20 warriors at ease(if they don't charge and kill 'em that way). Nevermind real scary shooting like IG, tau or heaven forbid marines. But having lost 100+ orks & grots(most of grots when they were essentially T4) to old marines I'm not really expecting numarines to be any worse at necron warrior killing. Yeah necron warriors are bit tougher than 6++ orks but not THAT much.
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
I don't. Regular against say 5++ knight does 1,975308638024691 wounds. Same heavy destroyer 1,843621399176954. Okay stratagem but for 1CP that's obvious stratagem to play. And regular destroyer makes mess of say multi wound infantry etc where h.destroyer is weak sauce. There's not that much T8 2+ save, no inv multi wound stuff where heavy destroyer really benefits.
It's about time to drop points unless it gets major boost to abilities.
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers. Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
It kind of makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.
And the stratagem evens it up further vs ideal target band for h.destroyer(T7-T8). Going from twice the chance to wound to just 60% better chance to wound. 3xshots outweight that. Even with d6 damage vs d3
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.
Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.
tneva82 wrote: On ork FB group there was post who claims to have seen leaks for orks. Grots still 3 pts. Stompa 800 pts without wargear. Didn't tell more.
800? Seriously? If that's correct then all "my wraithknight isn't good enough " talk must stop. Was really thinking gw might remove their heads from their backsides on that one.
Maybe. But then again same info claims 3 pts for grots so I take 800 pts stompa(wthout gear) and 3 pts grots over 600 pts stompa and 4 pts grots. But orks aren't marines so no surprises
Also seems shock jump is 102 pts(assuming weapon costs didn't change), skrap jet 100, 2 other 80 pts. No mention of the squigg buggy. This from ork FB group post who claims his friend has the CA and he calculated the price with new base cost+old weapon costs.
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.
Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.
I think it's reliability. BS3+ is 2/3, which is much better for 3 shots than 1 shot in terms of expected number of shots hitting.
I don't believe it .
Also 800 pts stompa with no warger means that is still about 900 with wargear. GW either wouldnt touch it at all instead of nicking 20 pts
Tyran wrote: I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.
It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.
Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.
I think it's reliability. BS3+ is 2/3, which is much better for 3 shots than 1 shot in terms of expected number of shots hitting.
Destroyers of both type have 77.77% chance of hitting naked. 88.88% if they use stratagem.
And it's not even reliability. Average damage is better for regular in basic scenario(you use the stratagem. 1 CP for the game is not that much. And generally destroyers are killed ASAP so no worry about do you have CP for that stratagem in T4). And that's vs the optimal targets. Anything softer than optimum and destroyer just keeps getting better
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Emicrania wrote: I don't believe it .
Also 800 pts stompa with no warger means that is still about 900 with wargear. GW either wouldnt touch it at all instead of nicking 20 pts
Well who says GW is interested in doing anything but lip service to it. Monolith went down only 20 pts when it needed more like 120 pts drop to be sensible. And even then dubious due to core issue with it's rules making it not work in it's role.
tneva82 wrote: Maybe. But then again same info claims 3 pts for grots so I take 800 pts stompa(wthout gear) and 3 pts grots over 600 pts stompa and 4 pts grots. But orks aren't marines so no surprises
Also seems shock jump is 102 pts(assuming weapon costs didn't change), skrap jet 100, 2 other 80 pts. No mention of the squigg buggy. This from ork FB group post who claims his friend has the CA and he calculated the price with new base cost+old weapon costs.
Very much hearsay but best I have seen yet.
Ah so bs then. If he has a copy of ca19 then he wouldn't need to calculate using old weapons costs. He'd have the new ones.
If you are expecting CA to help bad units or weak armies, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
CA never changed datasheets (CA 2018 contained datasheets for Fiends, Intercessors and Bloodcrushers but it only centralized datasheets that were updated in other documents before CA 2018 dropped) and reducing ppm cannot fix everything.
Only a handful of models are helped by CA : units that have decent rules but are overpriced (such as Possessed or Warp Talons).
Units with garbage rules and / or stratagems cannot be fixed by CA unless the point reduction is so massive they become broken because of it. You better accept it and wait for PA and / or a new Codex (probably both) if you want an actual buff.
And btw, it was definitely confirmed, yesterday evening, that Cult Marines are not getting 2W :=)
I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
tneva82 wrote: On necron tactic thread good point about ghost ark points. For 120 pts you get ghost ark. For 110 pts you get 10 warriors. For the 10 pts difference you get:
Same amount of guns(rapid fire 10 S4 -1 D1 vs 10 rapid fire 1 same stats)
12" speed vs 5"
T6 vs T4
14 wounds vs 10 wounds
4+ save for both
Quantum shield
Fly
Repair automatically one vs RP which isn't even easy to get. Oh and you are immune to morale.
You have degrade but then again warriors degrade firepower per wound taken.
You lose out on h2h ability but really 1 WS3+ S4 attack per model isn't that good. Ability fly gives you better h2h ability by being able to flee.
Really only issue is they aren't troops. But for pure stats it's ghost ark 4ever. The warrior repair thing is just free waste of datasheet space.
Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.
I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.
But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.
But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.
You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.
IanVanCheese wrote: Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.
I don't even think bringing warriors is needed for these. Just fill troops with tesla immortals. These are good enough without repair that no need to bring inferior unit which might or might not get use of RP. Meanwhile tesla immortals are happily throwing in 3 S5 hits per immortal. Use these to throw in 10/20 S4 -1 shots, block charges to your soft targets, tag enemy vehicles by charging before falling back with fly etc etc etc.
Maybe not as good as impulsor but then again we aren't marine grade anyway
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.
But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.
Which would be true if the primaris units were actually good. Most of them aren't. Only intercessors are good and they're only okay.
There's a reason people take Assault Centurions over aggressors.
It's mostly only morons who accredit marines strength to primarily primaris units.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.
But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.
You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.
Having broken faction just for sake of sales is terrible yes. But yeah your faction is overbroken cheese ensuring you don't need any skill to play so all is fine for you
IanVanCheese wrote: Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.
I don't even think bringing warriors is needed for these. Just fill troops with tesla immortals. These are good enough without repair that no need to bring inferior unit which might or might not get use of RP. Meanwhile tesla immortals are happily throwing in 3 S5 hits per immortal. Use these to throw in 10/20 S4 -1 shots, block charges to your soft targets, tag enemy vehicles by charging before falling back with fly etc etc etc.
Maybe not as good as impulsor but then again we aren't marine grade anyway
Exactly. You don't need a "correct" unit to transport because you just need to meet a requirement in general. You could take anything basically to unlock the Ghost Ark.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. You don't need a "correct" unit to transport because you just need to meet a requirement in general. You could take anything basically to unlock the Ghost Ark.
Yep. Have it around "hauling" doomsday ark
Before it wasn't that good to have around without warriors as it was bit expensive(bit more and you get dda). But now it's getting so cheap that it basically can be replacement for warrior squad. Albeit that's largely because warriors are so darn overpriced :-/ But certainly one of the two more interesting build ideas I got from changes(other being wraith spam)
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.
But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.
You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.
Having broken faction just for sake of sales is terrible yes. But yeah your faction is overbroken cheese ensuring you don't need any skill to play so all is fine for you
That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Watching a video of somebody whom GW has given a copy of the book to review is perfectly legal lol
ERJAK wrote:Which would be true if the primaris units were actually good. Most of them aren't. Only intercessors are good and they're only okay.
There's a reason people take Assault Centurions over aggressors.
It's mostly only morons who accredit marines strength to primarily primaris units.
Intercessors out-shoot Guardsmen (the usual go-to underpriced Troop unit) by a considerable margin (even greater if morale is taken into account), even within 12". Outside 12" they beat the living hell out of every other Troops unit in the game. And that's without taking chapter tactics into account.
If that's 'only okay' I'd like to hear what Troops units are considered good in your book.
Dysartes wrote:
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
There's literally nothing illegal about a reviewer talking about the contents of a small section of the book before the official release date. GW's release dates have no legal basis and discussing a small part of a book for review purposes is textbook fair use.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
I will almost certainly get the CA once it is released, I’d just like to know which changes to expect since the leaks covered only a few armies.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game. It's that, or some serious points hikes on their marquis units.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
There are many other aspects to consider, such as board control and CP generation. Though I'm not disagreeing with your overall point: currently many marine units get too much for the points they pay. Ultimately marines should be individually powerful but few in number. Primaris finally achieve that and make marines feel like proper marines. But I'm not opposed of point bumps assuming the faction rules are not nerfed.
IanVanCheese wrote: Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game.
That's not a bad idea and it would:
A) encourage melee options which could positively affect the meta and
B) make the Chapters that get a bonus during the Assault doctrine not feel so gimped, since (in theory) they'd be the only Chapters to get to use their super doctrine for more than 1 turn.
Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game. It's that, or some serious points hikes on their marquis units.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game. It's that, or some serious points hikes on their marquis units.
OR we can instead just toss the Super Doctrines instead of pretending they're a good idea and that we should be looking for ways to somehow keep them. Just an option.
OR we can instead just toss the Super Doctrines instead of pretending they're a good idea and that we should be looking for ways to somehow keep them. Just an option.
+1
Playing casual games with marines with just the new codex and without any supplement books, I find them to be balanced nicely against most factions. The supplements’ super doctrines should be removed from the game.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game. It's that, or some serious points hikes on their marquis units.
OR we can instead just toss the Super Doctrines instead of pretending they're a good idea and that we should be looking for ways to somehow keep them. Just an option.
The extra AP is one of the biggest issues. The specific super traits are fine. To fix iron hands they just need to make their chapter trait kick in during the tactical doctrine phase vs devastator doctrine.
Honestly, Super Doctrines are good, it encourages people to play mono faction over souping.
The problem is that everyone doesn't have one.
The other problem (which is more of a GW think-space problem) is that factions that are inherently mono faction (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons), and GW might decide that those factions don't need mono-klan/Hive Fleet/Tomb world super doctrine esque rules, and GW might not give them anything like that.
Darsath wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing any big changes that will push Necrons to be able to compete with any of the other books. Especially since a lot of their core units didn't see any changes. Another miss.
There's only so much that you can do to fix a unit with points cost, unfortunately. Necrons need datasheet changes like Space Marines got. 3+ armor warriors and T5 immortals would be a good start.
Unfortunately there are not nearly enough Necron players to manage the amount of squeaky wheeling the Space Marines did.
Crazyterran wrote: Honestly, Super Doctrines are good, it encourages people to play mono faction over souping.
The problem is that everyone doesn't have one.
The other problem (which is more of a GW think-space problem) is that factions that are inherently mono faction (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons), and GW might decide that those factions don't need mono-klan/Hive Fleet/Tomb world super doctrine esque rules, and GW might not give them anything like that.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
if they're overly average at everything though they SUCK. that's kinda the problem marines have had for ages. a second attack isn't worth much on a gunline unit.
So at the new points a naked sword wraith knight is 330 points. That is 80 points fewer than my kytan who has the same profile but 2 wounds less. Admittedly it has a ranged weapon and can regen 1 wound a turn, but I doubt it is worth an 80 point gap.
On no world should a 24 wound t8 model with a 3+/5++ be anything less than a lord of war.
Agreed. Also the Wraithknight gets Craftworld traits just for showing whereas IKs only get them if you field 3+ (I don't know about chaos knights). Wraithknights can be buffed by Autarchs and Seers too. The Sword'n'Board Knight gets it 5++ all the time whereas something like a Gallant only gets it vs shooting unless you take a Relic.
No one was saying it would be worse, just not the type of game they'd want to play(& I'd agree).
I'm just really interested to see how/which models get put into legends.
So people prefer illogical crappy non-working rules where rather than balance we get force fed sales tactics? Well humans have never been particularly logical creatures.
The game seems to work perfectly fine for those of us @ my flgs & with friends. you can only be force fed if you allow them to.
Crazyterran wrote: Honestly, Super Doctrines are good, it encourages people to play mono faction over souping.
The problem is that everyone doesn't have one.
The other problem (which is more of a GW think-space problem) is that factions that are inherently mono faction (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons), and GW might decide that those factions don't need mono-klan/Hive Fleet/Tomb world super doctrine esque rules, and GW might not give them anything like that.
You want to encourage mono armies? There's an easy way to do that. Guess what it is?
How are you going to external balance 4ppm guardsmen, or even 5ppm when you can take 30 of them and a pair of cheap HQs and get 5 CP and plenty of bodies to stand on objectives?
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
if they're overly average at everything though they SUCK. that's kinda the problem marines have had for ages. a second attack isn't worth much on a gunline unit.
Then the problem is that they're a gun line unit, not that they have the extra melee attack.
"Ok, I line up my space marines like revolutionary war soldiers 30" away and never move from my deployment zone" is garbage game play for what a space marine is supposed to be and do.
Heavily armored midrange infantry whose ideal game play pattern is softening up an enemy infantry unit then slamming into them to finish them off and capture an objective using their obsec is the role of a tactical marine squad. If you want a gunline with elite troops, that's supposed to be Tau.
Now why in the unholy heck would I even consider looking at a fire warrior when a basic space marine gaks out double the firepower with -2ap better armor and two wounds?
Gws solution, conveniently, is to force the Tau player to then field 3x the models because Fire Warriors drop down to "barely better than a guardsman" level.
Crimson wrote: That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.
They should be perfectly average (for their points) at shooting, melee, movement, durability, etc if they're supposed to be equally capable in all regards.
If they're actually good (for their cost) at more than one of those, without a corresponding drawback, then that makes them simply better than their more specialized competition.
Honestly, I think the simple fix for marines is to enforce moving through doctrines. Heavy turn 1, Tactical turn 2, Assault turn 3 onwards. I don't even think they should get a stratagem to hold off on moving, because two turns of Iron Hands is enough to end a game. It's that, or some serious points hikes on their marquis units.
OR we can instead just toss the Super Doctrines instead of pretending they're a good idea and that we should be looking for ways to somehow keep them. Just an option.
The extra AP is one of the biggest issues. The specific super traits are fine. To fix iron hands they just need to make their chapter trait kick in during the tactical doctrine phase vs devastator doctrine.
No the Super Doctrines are the problem. Rerolls on anything? Stalkers and Heavy Bolters being stupid efficient against vehicles? The moment your Knights are Characters they're a LOT easier to wound? If the game goes on long enough, even the basic Chainsword does D2?
No, they absolutely need to be deleted. They stink of formations which we already got rid of. Now they're basically back.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
There's literally nothing illegal about a reviewer talking about the contents of a small section of the book before the official release date. GW's release dates have no legal basis and discussing a small part of a book for review purposes is textbook fair use.
There's quite a difference between talking about the contents of a small section of the book and, as described by the person I was responding to, "going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points" - the latter is pandering to the Battlescribe Generation, who seem to believe they deserve to get the content of books/expansions without paying for the product.
Crazyterran wrote: Honestly, Super Doctrines are good, it encourages people to play mono faction over souping.
The problem is that everyone doesn't have one.
The other problem (which is more of a GW think-space problem) is that factions that are inherently mono faction (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons), and GW might decide that those factions don't need mono-klan/Hive Fleet/Tomb world super doctrine esque rules, and GW might not give them anything like that.
Crazyterran wrote: How are you going to external balance 4ppm guardsmen, or even 5ppm when you can take 30 of them and a pair of cheap HQs and get 5 CP and plenty of bodies to stand on objectives?
Make them more expensive, duh. Make Commanders 35 points and Infantry 45 points for starters.
Yeah I super enjoyed having my 2W gsc bike squad completely dismantled by a 5 man intercessor squad in my last game because the game had gone to turn 3 and their fists magically turned into plasma guns.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I super enjoyed having my 2W gsc bike squad completely dismantled by a 5 man intercessor squad in my last game because the game had gone to turn 3 and their fists magically turned into plasma guns.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I super enjoyed having my 2W gsc bike squad completely dismantled by a 5 man intercessor squad in my last game because the game had gone to turn 3 and their fists magically turned into plasma guns.
I'm sorry what?
I too want to know about the magical -3 ap space marine fists
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
I don't have any. I do have DCA, but I used Privateer Press "Daughters of the flame" models, painted in all gold (BLING!). And I even green-stuffed away the buttcrack and the bra-looking breastplate.
Picture of the original models (I don't have pictures of mine, I should make some):
Spoiler:
/ J stands for joke
*sticking my fingers in my ears*
What? I can't hear you over the fingers in my ears. I guess you are saying that you don't believe me until I post pictures? Then I have to post some pics of my awesome DCA and it definitely isn't some kind of silly excuse just because I want to show them!
Crazyterran wrote: Honestly, Super Doctrines are good, it encourages people to play mono faction over souping.
The problem is that everyone doesn't have one.
The other problem (which is more of a GW think-space problem) is that factions that are inherently mono faction (Orks, Tyranids, Necrons), and GW might decide that those factions don't need mono-klan/Hive Fleet/Tomb world super doctrine esque rules, and GW might not give them anything like that.
You want to encourage mono armies? There's an easy way to do that. Guess what it is?
BETTER INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL BALANCE
It's hard to grasp I know.
Actually the better external balance is the less likely people will run mono, discounting special rules that aren't attached to a model like the super doctrines are.
Space Marines will not and should not ever have anything that fills the same role as a guardsman; <5 point dudes that just take up space is not within the style of that faction. As such, as long as controlling space with numerous small models is useful, a Space Marine player is always going to want to borrow from the IG unless you give them a very good reason not to.
Super Doctrines as they ended up being written are way over the top in power level but the idea of unique benefits you get for sticking to your faction's theme (and all the strengths and weaknesses that come with it) is sound. I'd still prefer just a blanket ban on soup but it's a decent enough compromise.
You want to encourage mono armies? There's an easy way to do that. Guess what it is?
BETTER INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL BALANCE
It's hard to grasp I know.
I mean, if you really want to encourage mono armies you could just remove allies in Matched Play.
IMO, a change that would help with that and aid in other balancing issues would be to invert the dynamic of obtaining CP. Right now the default amount is tiny and the vast majority of CP are gained from detachments, whereas it should be reversed. Give everyone a base CP of 10 (or whatever, just picking a number here) and make a battalion give +4 while the others (bar fortification, patrol, and aux) give +2.
Then just say your army must pick a primary faction and can only use stratagems from them and you have yourself some restrained soup without eliminating the option to mix forces.
Crazyterran wrote: How are you going to external balance 4ppm guardsmen, or even 5ppm when you can take 30 of them and a pair of cheap HQs and get 5 CP and plenty of bodies to stand on objectives?
Tying CP generation to the ability to fill HQ and Troop slots as cheaply as possible was the single biggest mistake in the 8th edition and the ultimate source of large variety of problems.
Crazyterran wrote: How are you going to external balance 4ppm guardsmen, or even 5ppm when you can take 30 of them and a pair of cheap HQs and get 5 CP and plenty of bodies to stand on objectives?
Lock army generated CP to the faction keyword generating them. Done. If that turns out to not be enough then also force the army into using only the library of strats tied to the warlord.
You want to encourage mono armies? There's an easy way to do that. Guess what it is?
BETTER INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL BALANCE
It's hard to grasp I know.
I mean, if you really want to encourage mono armies you could just remove allies in Matched Play.
IMO, a change that would help with that and aid in other balancing issues would be to invert the dynamic of obtaining CP. Right now the default amount is tiny and the vast majority of CP are gained from detachments, whereas it should be reversed. Give everyone a base CP of 10 (or whatever, just picking a number here) and make a battalion give +4 while the others (bar fortification, patrol, and aux) give +2.
Then just say your army must pick a primary faction and can only use stratagems from them and you have yourself some restrained soup without eliminating the option to mix forces.
This would incentivize people not to take battalions since you get the same CP for 2 HQ's + your best units; I don't think I'd mind that honestly, but GW would.
I think what I'd do is attach the amount of CP you get to HQ datasheets; you get more for better commanders (usually points related but with exceptions - I could see a Chaos Lord giving more CP than a Daemon Prince for example). Then you limit the non-troop based detachments to 1 HQ choice per detachment if you still want people to take battalions.
This would also have a neat side effect in not screwing over themed armies as hard - if you want to take a bunch of bikes, take bike HQ's and you'll still get a fair amount of CP.
GW aren't going to get rid of super doctrines, so it's moot. They might enforce moving through them as a nerf, so that's the realistic best way to fix them.
This would incentivize people not to take battalions since you get the same CP for 2 HQ's + your best units; I don't think I'd mind that honestly, but GW would.
I think what I'd do is attach the amount of CP you get to HQ datasheets; you get more for better commanders (usually points related but with exceptions - I could see a Chaos Lord giving more CP than a Daemon Prince for example). Then you limit the non-troop based detachments to 1 HQ choice per detachment if you still want people to take battalions.
This would also have a neat side effect in not screwing over themed armies as hard - if you want to take a bunch of bikes, take bike HQ's and you'll still get a fair amount of CP.
Something along these lines would be my preferred option. Though I'd also suggest that CPs should be mostly generated each turn, rather than given all at once at the beginning of the game.
Honestly, though, I'd like to see CPs and Stratagems be more integrated, rather than at the moment when they're largely just tacked on. e.g. instead of auras, give some/all HQs unique abilities that they can activate with CPs (similar to Command Abilities in AoS).
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I super enjoyed having my 2W gsc bike squad completely dismantled by a 5 man intercessor squad in my last game because the game had gone to turn 3 and their fists magically turned into plasma guns.
I'm sorry what?
I too want to know about the magical -3 ap space marine fists
my guess is he's refering to the +1 damage in melee white scars get in assault doctrine as their super doctrine.
What about a system where every army of a given points value starts with a given number of CP.
Let's just say 15 at 2000pts.
Then, every detachment costs some.
Brigades cost 1
Battalions cost 3.
The specialist elites, heavy, hq etc. detachments cost 6.
So that way you have 2 choices as a list writer.
Write a mono faction list using 1 detachment. The benefit you get is more CP.
OR
Write a list with multiple detachments from different factions. The benefit you get is a wider array of units to choose from, potentially covering for the weaknesses of any given faction.
BrianDavion wrote:if they're overly average at everything though they SUCK. that's kinda the problem marines have had for ages. a second attack isn't worth much on a gunline unit.
That's the price you pay for being good at everything.
Use your melee capability to fight a gunline army, use your shooting ability to fight a melee army. Don't complain that you need to be competent at melee and really good at shooting because you want to use your troops exclusively as a gunline and don't expect to pay for the melee capability.
Like I said: if you want to be equally good at everything, then you should be perfectly average at everything. Being merely competent, without any glaring weaknesses, is great for new players. Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. If you want to be hyper-specialized, then Marines aren't for you.
Dysartes wrote:There's quite a difference between talking about the contents of a small section of the book and, as described by the person I was responding to, "going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points" - the latter is pandering to the Battlescribe Generation, who seem to believe they deserve to get the content of books/expansions without paying for the product.
I guess the 'Battlescribe Generation' is tired of balance changes being put behind a paywall.
I'll be 100% honest: I haven't bought a Chapter Approved ever, nor have I bought Vigilus. My group shares a single Vigilus book and we all get points costs from Battlescribe. $50 is too much for a couple of pages of relevant content.
AFAIK the Tyranid content in PA3 isn't providing a freebie bonus for being all-Tyranid and not souping in GSC, which was the point of the post you were responding to.
If I remember correctly, I spoke to the dev who headed the ork codex in terms of rules and points. His told me he was no longer working on it and was moved to AoS. Might explain the lack of interest in Ork point adjustments.
BrianDavion wrote:if they're overly average at everything though they SUCK. that's kinda the problem marines have had for ages. a second attack isn't worth much on a gunline unit.
That's the price you pay for being good at everything.
Use your melee capability to fight a gunline army, use your shooting ability to fight a melee army. Don't complain that you need to be competent at melee and really good at shooting because you want to use your troops exclusively as a gunline and don't expect to pay for the melee capability.
Like I said: if you want to be equally good at everything, then you should be perfectly average at everything. Being merely competent, without any glaring weaknesses, is great for new players. Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. If you want to be hyper-specialized, then Marines aren't for you.
Dysartes wrote:There's quite a difference between talking about the contents of a small section of the book and, as described by the person I was responding to, "going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points" - the latter is pandering to the Battlescribe Generation, who seem to believe they deserve to get the content of books/expansions without paying for the product.
I guess the 'Battlescribe Generation' is tired of balance changes being put behind a paywall.
I'll be 100% honest: I haven't bought a Chapter Approved ever, nor have I bought Vigilus. My group shares a single Vigilus book and we all get points costs from Battlescribe. $50 is too much for a couple of pages of relevant content.
AFAIK the Tyranid content in PA3 isn't providing a freebie bonus for being all-Tyranid and not souping in GSC, which was the point of the post you were responding to.
As a nid player, I'll confirm. We are only getting a handful of stratagems. There's 1 or 2 decent ones, but they are specialized to monsters that aren't normally taken. Points remain to be seen. But none of the glaring problems have been fixed. We still hit on 4s in both melee and shooting outside of genestealers and HQ. Half our current strats are still broken, specially with reserves. We get adaptations now, but they require us to give up our warlord traits. We have 1 new relic that's meh? All in all, the book seems to be a side grade. We sure as hell get nothing for free. Anything that resembles a second doctrine requires CP to activiate and is usually gated behind requirements like getting into combat, killing the entire unit, and then living to use it again the next turn. We are already CP usage heavy, have no actual skills to restore CP, and now we need to spend CP to change our monsters or give abilities.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I super enjoyed having my 2W gsc bike squad completely dismantled by a 5 man intercessor squad in my last game because the game had gone to turn 3 and their fists magically turned into plasma guns.
I'm sorry what?
I too want to know about the magical -3 ap space marine fists
my guess is he's refering to the +1 damage in melee white scars get in assault doctrine as their super doctrine.
Yeah I knew as soon as I employed slight hyperbole it'd get jumped on. 17 S4 Ap-1 D2 Demolished 8 bikes and the rest just got yeeted by morale.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I knew as soon as I employed slight hyperbole it'd get jumped on. 17 S4 Ap-1 D2 Demolished 8 bikes and the rest just got yeeted by morale.
Yes White Scars are op because they killed your bikes, nerf them!
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I knew as soon as I employed slight hyperbole it'd get jumped on. 17 S4 Ap-1 D2 Demolished 8 bikes and the rest just got yeeted by morale.
Yes White Scars are op because they killed your bikes, nerf them!
I am using the hyperbole correctly?
This is a C effort. You missed a prefect opportunity to complain about tangentially related Space Marine issues. You need to step up your game.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I knew as soon as I employed slight hyperbole it'd get jumped on. 17 S4 Ap-1 D2 Demolished 8 bikes and the rest just got yeeted by morale.
Yes White Scars are op because they killed your bikes, nerf them!
I am using the hyperbole correctly?
This is a C effort. You missed a prefect opportunity to complain about tangentially related Space Marine issues. You need to step up your game.
How about this one: An assault marine squad killed something! please nerf GW!
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
Very legal and very cool
Personally I'm dying to find out if harlequin troupes actually went down at all. Also wondering about my dark eldar.
Personally I'm dying to find out if harlequin troupes actually went down at all. Also wondering about my dark eldar.
I’m pretty sure it’s been confirmed that they went down two points to 11. I’m curious whether their weapons have changed, though one rumour is that neuro disrupters went down to 5 points, which is still too high IMO.
I’m also curious about Drukhari. I hope heat lances went down a bunch, as well as beast packs and hellions. I’m hoping for a reduction for mandrakes and incubi too, but not expecting one.
Any clue on the source for this? Saw it elsewhere, but it wasn't explicitly sourced that I could see.
If true... my goodness, did they drop a lot of points. Stealth suits and Stormsurges both seemed to get pretty massive drops. Kroot dropped a lot just because they were already so cheap. Crisis Suits have a few cheaper weapons and a slightly cheaper chassis, but Commanders also benefit from cheaper weapons, so they're still better (probably always will be).
No change in shield drone points listed in this leak, which puts it on somewhat shaky ground, depending on how solid the 12 pt shield drone rumor is supposed to be.
The drone rumor was debunked, so these could be true.
Also, this tau leak is quite unclear. It refers to the differences between the codex points and CA19 points, so many times that you read "Reduced" it was already reduced in CA18, it is not an additiional buff.
Personally I'm dying to find out if harlequin troupes actually went down at all. Also wondering about my dark eldar.
I’m pretty sure it’s been confirmed that they went down two points to 11. I’m curious whether their weapons have changed, though one rumour is that neuro disrupters went down to 5 points, which is still too high IMO.
I’m also curious about Drukhari. I hope heat lances went down a bunch, as well as beast packs and hellions. I’m hoping for a reduction for mandrakes and incubi too, but not expecting one.
I think I can live with five points for a neuro disruptor. Four points would have been ideal to make them a real hard choice with fusion pistols. I could see my self using them now in a soaring spite list with a mix of fusion and disruptor pistoliers in starweavers running around.
I'm hoping for a drop in price for the drukhari mercenary units that don't benefit from faction traits, especially incubi and scourges. Medusae are one of my pet favorite DE units. They are pretty over priced though after they completely neutered them in 8th edition. It would be nice to see them drop too, would honestly prefer them to return back to having flamer weapons though. It looks like helions and reavers have gone down if the rumors are true which makes them pretty enticing. I also want to see if my voidraven bombers have avoided the nerf bat that hit the razorwing jet fighter.
lolman1c wrote: If I remember correctly, I spoke to the dev who headed the ork codex in terms of rules and points. His told me he was no longer working on it and was moved to AoS. Might explain the lack of interest in Ork point adjustments.
How does that explain people photoing and uploading pages of ca? All those comes from devs?
BrianDavion wrote:if they're overly average at everything though they SUCK. that's kinda the problem marines have had for ages. a second attack isn't worth much on a gunline unit.
That's the price you pay for being good at everything.
Use your melee capability to fight a gunline army, use your shooting ability to fight a melee army. Don't complain that you need to be competent at melee and really good at shooting because you want to use your troops exclusively as a gunline and don't expect to pay for the melee capability.
Like I said: if you want to be equally good at everything, then you should be perfectly average at everything. Being merely competent, without any glaring weaknesses, is great for new players. Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. If you want to be hyper-specialized, then Marines aren't for you.
Dysartes wrote:There's quite a difference between talking about the contents of a small section of the book and, as described by the person I was responding to, "going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points" - the latter is pandering to the Battlescribe Generation, who seem to believe they deserve to get the content of books/expansions without paying for the product.
I guess the 'Battlescribe Generation' is tired of balance changes being put behind a paywall.
I'll be 100% honest: I haven't bought a Chapter Approved ever, nor have I bought Vigilus. My group shares a single Vigilus book and we all get points costs from Battlescribe. $50 is too much for a couple of pages of relevant content.
AFAIK the Tyranid content in PA3 isn't providing a freebie bonus for being all-Tyranid and not souping in GSC, which was the point of the post you were responding to.
As a nid player, I'll confirm. We are only getting a handful of stratagems. There's 1 or 2 decent ones, but they are specialized to monsters that aren't normally taken. Points remain to be seen. But none of the glaring problems have been fixed. We still hit on 4s in both melee and shooting outside of genestealers and HQ. Half our current strats are still broken, specially with reserves. We get adaptations now, but they require us to give up our warlord traits. We have 1 new relic that's meh? All in all, the book seems to be a side grade. We sure as hell get nothing for free. Anything that resembles a second doctrine requires CP to activiate and is usually gated behind requirements like getting into combat, killing the entire unit, and then living to use it again the next turn. We are already CP usage heavy, have no actual skills to restore CP, and now we need to spend CP to change our monsters or give abilities.
Woa there, Nids have feeding tendrils, so everything's balanced
Chapter Approved 2019 is the essential gaming toolbox for all Warhammer 40,000 fans. Whether you're looking to compile all of the rules that have featured in White Dwarf magazine throughout the year, or are looking for something new to expand your gaming experience, this is the perfect gaming supplement for you! Inside this 112-page softback book, you'll find:
- Rules for Spearhead – an expansion centred around tanks and vehicular combat
- Guidelines for linking your games of Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team, Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer 40000: Apocalypse
- Loads of new Missions as well as updates to terrain rules and datasheets for certain Chaos Daemons units
- And much, much more…
In addition, you'll also find a separate 56-page book containing all the latest matched play points updates, painstakingly balanced and tuned in conjunction with major tournament organisers and our playtesters.
The Warlord's Edition also includes a variety of exclusive gaming accessories:
- 1 pad of 50 tear out army roster sheets
- 2 game trackers designed for keeping track of both Command and Victory Points in your games
- 3 packs of cards featuring content taken directly from the Chapter Approved book, available as handy references (18 Mission cards, 35 Stratagem cards and 36 Generator cards)
Whether you like to experiment with new rules, missions and expansions, or combine your campaigns like never before – however you play, Chapter Approved has something for you and is a fitting guide to another incredible year of Warhammer 40,000.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then buying the book when released? Generally fine, depending on how much detail the reviewer goes into (highlights as a tease? OK. As described by the person I first responded to, panning the camera slowly over the pages so that everything is legible? Not fine.)
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then using BS (appropriate acronym, really) instead of (as opposed to as well as) buying the book? That's piracy, pure and simple, which I thought this place didn't encourage.
Emicrania wrote: I feel some people in this thread never heard of "moral compass".
I gave up when someone insinuated that breaking an opponents arm was a valid method of wining and it went unchallenged for a couple pages. At this point I'm glad no one tries to do a belly flop onto my miniatures to secure the in game advantage of the opponent not having an army.
That said, Sign deserves to go up to 15, 10 was a joke for what that thing does. The rest hurts me. An acolyte is not 8/11s a marine. A marine survives freaking lasgun fire far better.
Twilight Pathways wrote: What about not watching a video, but still using battlescribe instead of buying the book? It would seem the video part is irrelevant?
Sensible opponents say no. Too many errors in bs to rely. Not to mention it's dirt easy to modify
Before SM's they were at 53 ish, now they are at 49/50.
Problem is that its an army that was great in the right hands and completely terrible in the wrong ones.
But yeah, those nerfs make the 'meta' GSC list some 200 points more expensive. Which is probably going to completely kill the army competitively when most other lists are getting cheaper.
Edit: Having checked GMG's review quick. the rumors where half right.
Acolyte hybrids unchanged.
Abberants up to 19?
Stop sign up 15 to 25.
no change for rocksaws.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Do you think GW sends so many review copies of books out with the expectation that the details will be kept top secret? They want the information out there to drive sales. If someone reads about some awesome new rules for Death Company Intercessors today, they'll be tempted to include a box with their PA3 order. Same applies to anything potentially affected by new rules or point changes.
Before SM's they were at 53 ish, now they are at 49/50.
Problem is that its an army that was great in the right hands and completely terrible in the wrong ones.
But yeah, those nerfs make the 'meta' GSC list some 200 points more expensive. Which is probably going to completely kill the army competitively when most other lists are getting cheaper.
Edit: Having checked GMG's review quick. the rumors where half right.
Acolyte hybrids unchanged.
Abberants up to 19?
Stop sign up 15 to 25.
no change for rocksaws.
I don’t think GSC ever won a big tournament, no?
Sure, some skilled players did ok, but never to the extend similar top players did with Tau or Plaguebearers or the like.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then buying the book when released? Generally fine, depending on how much detail the reviewer goes into (highlights as a tease? OK. As described by the person I first responded to, panning the camera slowly over the pages so that everything is legible? Not fine.)
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then using BS (appropriate acronym, really) instead of (as opposed to as well as) buying the book? That's piracy, pure and simple, which I thought this place didn't encourage.
That isn't piracy. Battlescribe is not a copy of the book it is an alternative. Is it marginally gray at best? Yes. Printing out a pdf is piracy. Downloading a pdf is piracy. You can get on your noble high-horse and call it piracy all you want, but using things that are available online without producing/distributing a copy yourself is not piracy. Fairly certain you can't copyright stats, rules, etc and you can only copyright the way they are being presented. Come to think of it, it was your thread that got answered contrary to the point you are trying to make now and then locked by an admin after confirming it. Telling people to look for downloadable PDFs is advocating for piracy. Telling people to use battlescribe and look online for places they can find the rules is not advocating for piracy. See the important difference?
Before SM's they were at 53 ish, now they are at 49/50.
Problem is that its an army that was great in the right hands and completely terrible in the wrong ones.
But yeah, those nerfs make the 'meta' GSC list some 200 points more expensive. Which is probably going to completely kill the army competitively when most other lists are getting cheaper.
Edit: Having checked GMG's review quick. the rumors where half right.
Acolyte hybrids unchanged.
Abberants up to 19?
Stop sign up 15 to 25.
no change for rocksaws.
I don’t think GSC ever won a big tournament, no?
Sure, some skilled players did ok, but never to the extend similar top players did with Tau or Plaguebearers or the like.
GSC won some tournaments and has a pretty consistent top showing, obviously now suffering from the SM domination like everyone is.
https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
So after seeing this I have a feeling that TS are about to replace GK as the worst performing army, more increases then decreases, on the tzeench daemons front LoC went down 20 but the herald of tzentch went stealthily up 14 points leaving the battalion cost pretty unchanged.
Alright time to get back to the usual hope "maybe in the next book TS will get something" or just roll us back into the CSM book as the seems to be doing well with the point cuts while we get psychicly shafted
OK Rant over. Will be back whenever TS will be mentioned in PA if ever
So GW is BEGGING us to buy those fething buggies meanwhile doing NOTHING for the rest of the fething army. We are stuck in the same repetitive army for another year.
Oh yeah -50 points on a stompa.
feth YOU.
Okay, so stand down the GSC panic. Abberants seem to have been nerfed into the ground for no real reason, but they weren't such a core part of the army that's a crisis, just a shame. The Kellermorph isn't an autotake any more, but it's not a disaster.
Shooting got a lot cheaper, but the points reductions to Russes mean they're still probably the better option - at least it's touch an go with GSC vehicles with heavy mining lasers though if you want more mobility.
They finally made Metamorphs cheap enough they're worth thinking about, and didn't change anything about Acolytes which are the core of most people's armies. My army probably nets out points wise, which is fine.
The points differential between Cult Genestealers and Tyranid ones looks even worse though, and I don't understand why that wasn't fixed.
So GW is BEGGING us to buy those fething buggies meanwhile doing NOTHING for the rest of the fething army. We are stuck in the same repetitive army for another year.
Oh yeah -50 points on a stompa.
feth YOU.
This is an insult to Ork players. However, from the sounds of it, our gretchin stayed the same so at least that rumour is BS. Unless they did go up and I missed it.
Really shows how these things are a waste of money, GW should have a team doing yearly adjustments for free! All these excuses people sy "Just pirate it, borrow it or use BS" are just excuses. Gw clearly expects you to pay for minimum work. Take up my actions and just don't buy it this year, show them it's unacceptable to sell us patches.
Twilight Pathways wrote: What about not watching a video, but still using battlescribe instead of buying the book? It would seem the video part is irrelevant?
Sensible opponents say no. Too many errors in bs to rely.
By that logic, sensible opponents should also refuse to play against GW's own books.
The Phazer wrote: Okay, so stand down the GSC panic. Abberants seem to have been nerfed into the ground for no real reason, but they weren't such a core part of the army that's a crisis, just a shame. The Kellermorph isn't an autotake any more, but it's not a disaster.
Shooting got a lot cheaper, but the points reductions to Russes mean they're still probably the better option - at least it's touch an go with GSC vehicles with heavy mining lasers though if you want more mobility.
They finally made Metamorphs cheap enough they're worth thinking about, and didn't change anything about Acolytes which are the core of most people's armies. My army probably nets out points wise, which is fine.
The points differential between Cult Genestealers and Tyranid ones looks even worse though, and I don't understand why that wasn't fixed.
Most GSC lists were running 2x10 Aberrants so saying they were not a core part of the army seems wrong to me.
Otherwise mostly agree tho.
The Phazer wrote: Okay, so stand down the GSC panic. Abberants seem to have been nerfed into the ground for no real reason, but they weren't such a core part of the army that's a crisis, just a shame. The Kellermorph isn't an autotake any more, but it's not a disaster.
Shooting got a lot cheaper, but the points reductions to Russes mean they're still probably the better option - at least it's touch an go with GSC vehicles with heavy mining lasers though if you want more mobility.
They finally made Metamorphs cheap enough they're worth thinking about, and didn't change anything about Acolytes which are the core of most people's armies. My army probably nets out points wise, which is fine.
The points differential between Cult Genestealers and Tyranid ones looks even worse though, and I don't understand why that wasn't fixed.
Nerfing demo charges, aberrants, and the kelermorph while buffing metamorphs and ridgerunners to barely usable is somehow coming out ahead? Like, if the army was pulling 55%+ win rates prior maybe I could see it, but in the context of the current balance situation, any net nerf is doubly painful.
Also, screw needing to drop $450 retail to buy 450 points of ridgerunners.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then buying the book when released? Generally fine, depending on how much detail the reviewer goes into (highlights as a tease? OK. As described by the person I first responded to, panning the camera slowly over the pages so that everything is legible? Not fine.)
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then using BS (appropriate acronym, really) instead of (as opposed to as well as) buying the book? That's piracy, pure and simple, which I thought this place didn't encourage.
Points habe eben leaked by D6evolution on YouTube. With GW knowledge and permission. No one who gets any GW books ahead of official releasement would dare to do so, without GW allowing it. So stop talking nonsense about piracy.
No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
Yeah, the standard Aberrant 10-man with stop signs unit going up 60 (?) points now in a world where things like Riptides and Discolords stayed the same and even Caladius came back down seems odd, even if Marines hadn’t come out.
Aenar wrote: I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.
Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.
Nothing illegal about watching a guy on the internet going over point changes and using BS instead of buying the book. ^^
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then buying the book when released? Generally fine, depending on how much detail the reviewer goes into (highlights as a tease? OK. As described by the person I first responded to, panning the camera slowly over the pages so that everything is legible? Not fine.)
Watching a video of someone going over the changes, then using BS (appropriate acronym, really) instead of (as opposed to as well as) buying the book? That's piracy, pure and simple, which I thought this place didn't encourage.
Points habe eben leaked by D6evolution on YouTube. With GW knowledge and permission. No one who gets any GW books ahead of official releasement would dare to do so, without GW allowing it. So stop talking nonsense about piracy.
Nobody uses low quality youtube screenshots instead of official books or battlescribe. And using battlescribe is not piracy, as it's a list builder that does not contain all the rules you need to play and is tolerated by GW (it would've been shut down long ago otherwise)1.
Piracy would be downloading scans of books, not watching review videos.
Gadzilla666 wrote: No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
At least marines are ok.
Where are fw leaks?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found them.
R&H cultists are remaining 5pts?!
No changes else there?
The Phazer wrote: Okay, so stand down the GSC panic. Abberants seem to have been nerfed into the ground for no real reason, but they weren't such a core part of the army that's a crisis, just a shame. The Kellermorph isn't an autotake any more, but it's not a disaster.
Shooting got a lot cheaper, but the points reductions to Russes mean they're still probably the better option - at least it's touch an go with GSC vehicles with heavy mining lasers though if you want more mobility.
They finally made Metamorphs cheap enough they're worth thinking about, and didn't change anything about Acolytes which are the core of most people's armies. My army probably nets out points wise, which is fine.
The points differential between Cult Genestealers and Tyranid ones looks even worse though, and I don't understand why that wasn't fixed.
Purestrains are still 15pts for some reason? Presumably to encourage GSC players to buy Codex: Tyranids and a Broodlord to make use of them.
Abberents were probably nerfed for no other reason than getting people to buy x4 £25 Acolyte boxes being better for GW's pocket than x2 £25 Abberants (if not just the one).
Ridgerunner price drop is pretty nice, but it begs the question why the Goliath/Rockgrinder didn't get one either when neither were used.
So GW is BEGGING us to buy those fething buggies meanwhile doing NOTHING for the rest of the fething army. We are stuck in the same repetitive army for another year.
Oh yeah -50 points on a stompa.
feth YOU.
This is an insult to Ork players. However, from the sounds of it, our gretchin stayed the same so at least that rumour is BS. Unless they did go up and I missed it.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Yes, the stompa still sucks and they forgot transports exist, but one of the major complaints of the ork community has been the inability to play a proper speed freeks lists. Everything that can even remotely be consider speed freak but warbikers and transport got cheaper, and the only unit nerfed is one that definitely deserves it. Plus they put the Big Mek with KFF onto the list as new entry, which mean it will not be going to legends like the biker characters.
Jid brother, we needed something more to keep up with the meta, PK and BC and nobz need to go down. Survivability is essential and our trasnport are at least 15% overpriced.
IMHO we got no real love beside those fething buggie that nobody cares about.
Emicrania wrote: Jid brother, we needed something more to keep up with the meta, PK and BC and nobz need to go down. Survivability is essential and our trasnport are at least 15% overpriced.
IMHO we got no real love beside those fething buggie that nobody cares about.
Make the buggies cheap enough and people will care about them.
Ok watched striking scorpion 88 and apparently chosen have dropped to 12ppm. Dark apostle is 72.
But here's another bonus. If my math is right on the war gear (using battlescribe for this cause it's loyalist) the astreus is down 100 points. Y'know the fething PRIMARIS super heavy.
Regarding Deathwatch: it looks like all bolter variants dropped to match regular Marine costs. So no more SIA tax.
This makes sense now that regular Marines get Combat Doctrines
Gadzilla666 wrote: No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
At least marines are ok.
Dark Apostle is 72 (-28)
Chosen are 12 ppm (-2)
Forgefiend is 80 (-20)
Obliterator is 95 (-20)
Venomcrawler is 115 (-15)
Maulerfiend is 110 (-10 + -4 demonic jaw is now 8 instead of 12)
Sorcerer is 80 (-10)
MoP is 80 (-10)
Possessed is 17 (-3)
Warp Talon is 19 (-3 the model -2 dual lightning claws)
Also it seems that GW is really trying its hardest to push FW out of competitive. Good.
IanVanCheese wrote: GW aren't going to get rid of super doctrines, so it's moot. They might enforce moving through them as a nerf, so that's the realistic best way to fix them.
The easiest fix would be to disallow ANY (not just marine) supplements from matched play events. Obviously this is done on a case by case basis, but the standard marine book IMHO is fine and actually a needed buff, it's just all the extra free crap from the other sources that gets broken.
Emicrania wrote: Jid brother, we needed something more to keep up with the meta, PK and BC and nobz need to go down. Survivability is essential and our trasnport are at least 15% overpriced.
IMHO we got no real love beside those fething buggie that nobody cares about.
I'd argue less people care about PK and BC nobz than about buggies. Gits went down, KBB, SJD and scrapjet went down. The kopta might or might not have an impact on competitive play.
The thing is, CA was quite obviously written before the whole numarine disaster, at which point shooty orks were an army which was regularly doing quite well. Obviously, buffing any of the cogs which made that army work could have ended in a very hard to stop top tier army.
What we see here is an attempt to buff some sort of vehicle-based archetype to competitive levels. The only thing puzzling me is why they didn't touch trukks and battlewagons, but that is far from "an insult to ork players" especially since they obviously realized the issue with the KFF mek going to legends and did something about it.
Emicrania wrote: Jid brother, we needed something more to keep up with the meta, PK and BC and nobz need to go down. Survivability is essential and our trasnport are at least 15% overpriced.
IMHO we got no real love beside those fething buggie that nobody cares about.
I'd argue less people care about PK and BC nobz than about buggies. Gits went down, KBB, SJD and scrapjet went down. The kopta might or might not have an impact on competitive play.
The thing is, CA was quite obviously written before the whole numarine disaster, at which point shooty orks were an army which was regularly doing quite well. Obviously, buffing any of the cogs which made that army work could have ended in a very hard to stop top tier army.
What we see here is an attempt to buff some sort of vehicle-based archetype to competitive levels. The only thing puzzling me is why they didn't touch trukks and battlewagons, but that is far from "an insult to ork players" especially since they obviously realized the issue with the KFF mek going to legends and did something about it.
I'm with Jid on this.
The changes aren't enough given the Marine meta, but we knew this before CA was fully leaked. Let's not pretend we were expecting Marine Meta levels of buffs here. If our only nerf was a 2pt increase to the still incredibly efficient Smasha Gun I think we've done very well.
We're not going to be any more prevalent in the meta I don't think, but Flash Gits were helped a little, and they aren't probably our best Marine killer.
Whilst is true that they argue less about it, changing prices on the weapons have a carpet effect on the whole army, buffing us back in the competitve top.
I ll do the math on the buggie and say what i think about it.
ATM im VERY pissed for the lack of point change on PK, transports and the goddamn Stompa, I wanna play that model so bad it makes me wanna cry....
Emicrania wrote: Jid brother, we needed something more to keep up with the meta, PK and BC and nobz need to go down. Survivability is essential and our trasnport are at least 15% overpriced.
IMHO we got no real love beside those fething buggie that nobody cares about.
I'd argue less people care about PK and BC nobz than about buggies. Gits went down, KBB, SJD and scrapjet went down. The kopta might or might not have an impact on competitive play.
The thing is, CA was quite obviously written before the whole numarine disaster, at which point shooty orks were an army which was regularly doing quite well. Obviously, buffing any of the cogs which made that army work could have ended in a very hard to stop top tier army.
What we see here is an attempt to buff some sort of vehicle-based archetype to competitive levels. The only thing puzzling me is why they didn't touch trukks and battlewagons, but that is far from "an insult to ork players" especially since they obviously realized the issue with the KFF mek going to legends and did something about it.
I'm with Jid on this.
The changes aren't enough given the Marine meta, but we knew this before CA was fully leaked. Let's not pretend we were expecting Marine Meta levels of buffs here. If our only nerf was a 2pt increase to the still incredibly efficient Smasha Gun I think we've done very well.
We're not going to be any more prevalent in the meta I don't think, but Flash Gits were helped a little, and they aren't probably our best Marine killer.
Flashgitz are ROI the best marines killer we have in the whole codex.
Emicrania wrote: ATM im VERY pissed for the lack of point change on PK, transports and the goddamn Stompa, I wanna play that model so bad it makes me wanna cry....
I agree, the lack of point drops on weapons and transports are weird.
Gadzilla666 wrote: No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
At least marines are ok.
Dark Apostle is 72 (-28)
Chosen are 12 ppm (-2)
Forgefiend is 80 (-20)
Obliterator is 95 (-20)
Venomcrawler is 115 (-15)
Maulerfiend is 110 (-10 + -4 demonic jaw is now 8 instead of 12)
Sorcerer is 80 (-10)
MoP is 80 (-10)
Possessed is 17 (-3)
Warp Talon is 19 (-3 the model -2 dual lightning claws)
Also it seems that GW is really trying its hardest to push FW out of competitive. Good.
They are not pushing FW out of competetive
They didn't update FW, AT ALL, with the only exception I found is custards.
So...bascially this confirms that forgeworld is STILL non-functional.
Like seriously, I know a bigshot died a few years ago, but did he manage the entire place himself and no replacement was ever hired? FW is completely non-functional on all levels from the day 8th edition dropped.
BoomWolf wrote: Question, heard someone say in a "review vid" that some daemon units got new datasheets in the back, anyone seen/heard of this?
Because it might explain some of the smaller daemon HQs going on a price hike.
I skipped over it but I think its bringing some of the Slaanesh AoS stuff in 40k. While skipping through it I saw the Keeper of Secret special character name.
Gadzilla666 wrote: No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
At least marines are ok.
Dark Apostle is 72 (-28)
Chosen are 12 ppm (-2)
Forgefiend is 80 (-20)
Obliterator is 95 (-20)
Venomcrawler is 115 (-15)
Maulerfiend is 110 (-10 + -4 demonic jaw is now 8 instead of 12)
Sorcerer is 80 (-10)
MoP is 80 (-10)
Possessed is 17 (-3)
Warp Talon is 19 (-3 the model -2 dual lightning claws)
Also it seems that GW is really trying its hardest to push FW out of competitive. Good.
Yeah because resin=magic.
And if they want to push fw out of competitive how about a rule that says "NO FW IN COMPETITIVE PLAY " instead of messing up points for everyone?
Gadzilla666 wrote: No drops for hellforged low? Seriously gw you STILL haven't sold enough knights? Drops to the already cheap storm surge and ugly lord of skulls? No drop to the dark apostle? Chosen?
And it looks like orks and gsc got hit hardest. Not much help for eldar either.
At least marines are ok.
Dark Apostle is 72 (-28)
Chosen are 12 ppm (-2)
Forgefiend is 80 (-20)
Obliterator is 95 (-20)
Venomcrawler is 115 (-15)
Maulerfiend is 110 (-10 + -4 demonic jaw is now 8 instead of 12)
Sorcerer is 80 (-10)
MoP is 80 (-10)
Possessed is 17 (-3)
Warp Talon is 19 (-3 the model -2 dual lightning claws)
Also it seems that GW is really trying its hardest to push FW out of competitive. Good.
They are not pushing FW out of competetive
They didn't update FW, AT ALL, with the only exception I found is custards.
So...bascially this confirms that forgeworld is STILL non-functional.
Like seriously, I know a bigshot died a few years ago, but did he manage the entire place himself and no replacement was ever hired? FW is completely non-functional on all levels from the day 8th edition dropped.
Great isn't it.
But we needed more mahhhrreeeeeeennns in all books, period..
Gadzilla666 wrote: And if they want to push fw out of competitive how about a rule that says "NO FW IN COMPETITIVE PLAY " instead of messing up points for everyone?
Have you ever seen the reaction here to people not wanting to play against forgeworld? That's why.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And if they want to push fw out of competitive how about a rule that says "NO FW IN COMPETITIVE PLAY " instead of messing up points for everyone?
Have you ever seen the reaction here to people not wanting to play against forgeworld? That's why.
Yeah I know I'm one of em.
Btw anybody seen reviews of pa3? It's a ba codex points and all.
so, any folk with Tau, IG or Custodes experience. whats your take on the respective changes? i have an interest in all 3 of those factions, and does any of this shake things up for any of them?
