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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

Anyhow, is only ork left for leaks right?

How wonderful

admech
tau
orks
thousand sons
genestealer cults
half of tyranids
astra militarum
the forgeworld stuff

actual pictures to confirm :
drukhari
harlequins
craftworlds

Those (and probably more) are left, stop thinking orks are being deliberatly left out, its starting to be annoying.

Please quote me on "deliberately".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise you are going with the BS mentality of "so what you mean by that"

I was sarcastically asking, my tinfoiled hat is at home.

So the fw stuff been leaked? Missed that, what page was it on.

 BoomWolf wrote:
5++ from cryptek?
20 warrior squads?
Missing a SINGLE WARRIOR to RNG can feth you up with a large portion coming back, undoing your effort?

That's well over 300pts for the Warriors and a Cryptek, right?

I mean, a single Leman Russ Punisher w/ triple Heavy Bolters costs about half that, and averages 12 kills. A pair of them will reliably wipe the entire unit. If RNG bites me and they leave one or two remaining, presumably I have other units in a 1500pt list that are capable of shooting too, and they can finish the job.

I've played against Necrons a couple of times and once you wrap your head around needing to focus-fire single units down, it becomes pretty easy to deny RP. The bigger your unit, the harder they are to hide, and it's not unlikely that most of the opponent's army will be able to trace LOS to a blob of 20.

 catbarf wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
5++ from cryptek?
20 warrior squads?
Missing a SINGLE WARRIOR to RNG can feth you up with a large portion coming back, undoing your effort?

That's well over 300pts for the Warriors and a Cryptek, right?

Well not well over. 220 for warriors, 95 for cryptek.

I've played against Necrons a couple of times and once you wrap your head around needing to focus-fire single units down, it becomes pretty easy to deny RP. The bigger your unit, the harder they are to hide, and it's not unlikely that most of the opponent's army will be able to trace LOS to a blob of 20.

Yep this :( Okay recently I have had 2x18 survive and get tons of RP but that's because I have been playing vs non-optimal GK list and GK's being one of the top contenders for the title of THE worst army in the game. Outside them even orks blow 20 warriors at ease(if they don't charge and kill 'em that way). Nevermind real scary shooting like IG, tau or heaven forbid marines. But having lost 100+ orks & grots(most of grots when they were essentially T4) to old marines I'm not really expecting numarines to be any worse at necron warrior killing. Yeah necron warriors are bit tougher than 6++ orks but not THAT much.

I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

I don't. Regular against say 5++ knight does 1,975308638024691 wounds. Same heavy destroyer 1,843621399176954. Okay stratagem but for 1CP that's obvious stratagem to play. And regular destroyer makes mess of say multi wound infantry etc where h.destroyer is weak sauce. There's not that much T8 2+ save, no inv multi wound stuff where heavy destroyer really benefits.

It's about time to drop points unless it gets major boost to abilities.

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

It kind of makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.

And the stratagem evens it up further vs ideal target band for h.destroyer(T7-T8). Going from twice the chance to wound to just 60% better chance to wound. 3xshots outweight that. Even with d6 damage vs d3

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.

Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.

tneva82 wrote:
On ork FB group there was post who claims to have seen leaks for orks. Grots still 3 pts. Stompa 800 pts without wargear. Didn't tell more.

800? Seriously? If that's correct then all "my wraithknight isn't good enough " talk must stop. Was really thinking gw might remove their heads from their backsides on that one.

Could be bad info though.

Maybe. But then again same info claims 3 pts for grots so I take 800 pts stompa(wthout gear) and 3 pts grots over 600 pts stompa and 4 pts grots. But orks aren't marines so no surprises

Also seems shock jump is 102 pts(assuming weapon costs didn't change), skrap jet 100, 2 other 80 pts. No mention of the squigg buggy. This from ork FB group post who claims his friend has the CA and he calculated the price with new base cost+old weapon costs.

Very much hearsay but best I have seen yet.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.

Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.

I think it's reliability. BS3+ is 2/3, which is much better for 3 shots than 1 shot in terms of expected number of shots hitting.

I don't believe it .
Also 800 pts stompa with no warger means that is still about 900 with wargear. GW either wouldnt touch it at all instead of nicking 20 pts

Nurglitch wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
I find it extremely weird that Heavy Destroyers are cheaper than normal ones.

It makes sense though. Heavy destroyers are a lot less efficient than Destroyers.
Being able to shoot 3 times as opposed to once makes all the difference.

Indeed. Weight of fire rather than quality is king this edition.

I think it's reliability. BS3+ is 2/3, which is much better for 3 shots than 1 shot in terms of expected number of shots hitting.

Destroyers of both type have 77.77% chance of hitting naked. 88.88% if they use stratagem.

And it's not even reliability. Average damage is better for regular in basic scenario(you use the stratagem. 1 CP for the game is not that much. And generally destroyers are killed ASAP so no worry about do you have CP for that stratagem in T4). And that's vs the optimal targets. Anything softer than optimum and destroyer just keeps getting better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
I don't believe it .
Also 800 pts stompa with no warger means that is still about 900 with wargear. GW either wouldnt touch it at all instead of nicking 20 pts

Well who says GW is interested in doing anything but lip service to it. Monolith went down only 20 pts when it needed more like 120 pts drop to be sensible. And even then dubious due to core issue with it's rules making it not work in it's role.

NPC races don't get as good treatment as PC.

tneva82 wrote:
Maybe. But then again same info claims 3 pts for grots so I take 800 pts stompa(wthout gear) and 3 pts grots over 600 pts stompa and 4 pts grots. But orks aren't marines so no surprises

Also seems shock jump is 102 pts(assuming weapon costs didn't change), skrap jet 100, 2 other 80 pts. No mention of the squigg buggy. This from ork FB group post who claims his friend has the CA and he calculated the price with new base cost+old weapon costs.

Very much hearsay but best I have seen yet.

Ah so bs then. If he has a copy of ca19 then he wouldn't need to calculate using old weapons costs. He'd have the new ones.

Um this guy didn't have but his friend. So it's feasible he asked cost of the vehicles and was shown the cost of unit entry. Which is the base cost.

Lol it's bad times when the best rumour we have to go off is; 'my mate showed me, here's a post on Facebook'.

Yep. Ork news are annoyingly sparse. Guess nobody who has got hand on CA is ork player :(

Ah well. Not really looking forward how much more models I need to field for 2k anyway. Orks are already painfully slow.

I'm going to say again the following :

If you are expecting CA to help bad units or weak armies, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

CA never changed datasheets (CA 2018 contained datasheets for Fiends, Intercessors and Bloodcrushers but it only centralized datasheets that were updated in other documents before CA 2018 dropped) and reducing ppm cannot fix everything.

Only a handful of models are helped by CA : units that have decent rules but are overpriced (such as Possessed or Warp Talons).

Units with garbage rules and / or stratagems cannot be fixed by CA unless the point reduction is so massive they become broken because of it. You better accept it and wait for PA and / or a new Codex (probably both) if you want an actual buff.

And btw, it was definitely confirmed, yesterday evening, that Cult Marines are not getting 2W :=)

I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.

tneva82 wrote:
On necron tactic thread good point about ghost ark points. For 120 pts you get ghost ark. For 110 pts you get 10 warriors. For the 10 pts difference you get:

Same amount of guns(rapid fire 10 S4 -1 D1 vs 10 rapid fire 1 same stats)
12" speed vs 5"
T6 vs T4
14 wounds vs 10 wounds
4+ save for both
Quantum shield
Fly
Repair automatically one vs RP which isn't even easy to get. Oh and you are immune to morale.

You have degrade but then again warriors degrade firepower per wound taken.

You lose out on h2h ability but really 1 WS3+ S4 attack per model isn't that good. Ability fly gives you better h2h ability by being able to flee.

Really only issue is they aren't troops. But for pure stats it's ghost ark 4ever. The warrior repair thing is just free waste of datasheet space.

Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.

I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.

But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.

But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.

You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.

I don't even think bringing warriors is needed for these. Just fill troops with tesla immortals. These are good enough without repair that no need to bring inferior unit which might or might not get use of RP. Meanwhile tesla immortals are happily throwing in 3 S5 hits per immortal. Use these to throw in 10/20 S4 -1 shots, block charges to your soft targets, tag enemy vehicles by charging before falling back with fly etc etc etc.

Maybe not as good as impulsor but then again we aren't marine grade anyway

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.

But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.

Which would be true if the primaris units were actually good. Most of them aren't. Only intercessors are good and they're only okay.

There's a reason people take Assault Centurions over aggressors.

It's mostly only morons who accredit marines strength to primarily primaris units.

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.

But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.

You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.

Having broken faction just for sake of sales is terrible yes. But yeah your faction is overbroken cheese ensuring you don't need any skill to play so all is fine for you

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Agree with this, Ghost Arks were decent before, now they're fantastic... assuming the meta swings away from high shot, low damage guns...which it won't. Still, I think Ghost Ark spam and some min size warrior squads will be a solid list. Quantum Shielding Online is back to being our best viable list. But since I've only just finished my third Doomsday Ark, I'll be damned if I'm building another 5 of them as Ghost Arks.

I don't even think bringing warriors is needed for these. Just fill troops with tesla immortals. These are good enough without repair that no need to bring inferior unit which might or might not get use of RP. Meanwhile tesla immortals are happily throwing in 3 S5 hits per immortal. Use these to throw in 10/20 S4 -1 shots, block charges to your soft targets, tag enemy vehicles by charging before falling back with fly etc etc etc.

Maybe not as good as impulsor but then again we aren't marine grade anyway

Exactly. You don't need a "correct" unit to transport because you just need to meet a requirement in general. You could take anything basically to unlock the Ghost Ark.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. You don't need a "correct" unit to transport because you just need to meet a requirement in general. You could take anything basically to unlock the Ghost Ark.

Yep. Have it around "hauling" doomsday ark

Before it wasn't that good to have around without warriors as it was bit expensive(bit more and you get dda). But now it's getting so cheap that it basically can be replacement for warrior squad. Albeit that's largely because warriors are so darn overpriced :-/ But certainly one of the two more interesting build ideas I got from changes(other being wraith spam)

 Aenar wrote:
I just hope some of the reviewers who get these advance copies of the CA will upload their videos tomorrow, going very slowly through pages well in focus so you can clearly read all the points.
The first reviewer to do that gets many views just from me.

Or you could wait a week, and legally acquire the information.

tneva82 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes but actually no. You can absolutely underprice a bad unit to the point where it's good. Look at Primaris crap, it's all clunky non synergistic junk on a platform that's super vulnerable to d2 weaponry and pays for melee power with 30" guns.

But make it so that it's cheap enough and suddenly it's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades and it can just steamroll over enemy armies, putting Tau gun lines to shame at 30", smashing dedicated melee units with derpy primaris taekwondo that gives you more attacks than most factions melee specialists.

You mean space marines that are versatile and capable (and look awesome.) Yes, that certainly is terrible.

Having broken faction just for sake of sales is terrible yes. But yeah your faction is overbroken cheese ensuring you don't need any skill to play so all is fine for you

That's not what I meant. Marines are currently too good, no question. But that is not a Primaris issue, it is overtuning the free bonus rules issue. I was responding to Scotsman's silly gripe about marines Primaris marines being good both at shooting and melee. Current OPness issues aside, that's what marines fundamentally should be.