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BrianDavion wrote:
the people whining all UNIVERSALLY xenos players.

False, demonstrably so.

and no Marine players don't think they're the only ones who had to go ages without anything more then a single list (if that) the differance is marine players don't take it as a personal insult when someone else gets a good release.

The most meta ironic statement I have read in a while. Is this a joke?

We now have a thread for discussions around Marines. It's here;
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/782700.page

 cuda1179 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes Spears and axes become assault 3 shooting. gunswords become pistol 4.

Venerable Landraiders drop to 150pts bare.

Jetbikes become 59ppm.

Melta Missiles become frag assault 6, krak assault 2. Same as to the rest of the profile.

Damage on swords are now flat 1, Spears 2, axes 3, fists 3. No more randomness please.

Allarus Terminators drop to 45pts. They shouldn't cost more than bikes.

Is this an actual rumor, or just wishlisting? If an actual rumor I can get on board with it. Basic Custodes need help with shooting.

pretty sure it's wish listing,

Although I do not believe this rumor about Marines going lower in points I would like to mention that if the rumor is true it could be only that none 2.0 marines are getting point changes as DA, Blood Angels, SW, and GK aren't really in a good spot right now. So if somebody were to say that Marines were getting a point drop then I wouldn't be surprised if certain marine factions, who are underperforming, would get a point drop.

When it comes to point drops, they might just lower (almost) everything like they did last year. So nobody gets hit with a huge point hike, but some units get bigger cuts than others.

And everyone has to buy more models to field the same number of points as before.

Which works as long as you have room to differentiate similar units without going into fractional points. Which we are already at.

IMHO they should just double all the points, make 3k the new 1,500, and have room to have cultists, grots, conscripts, and guardsmen at (theoretically) correct point levels.

But I’d put money on the fact that suddenly everyone is going to have room for a new unit in their old lists once CA19 drops.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I see we're on to the part in the narrative where the fact that Space Marines of all types that weren't Deathwatch had sub-40% winrates for months is swept under the rug.

This is simply a lie. Ultras had above 50%, for example and just off the top of my head.

I don't think "lie" means what you seem to think it means. It's enough to say that I was incorrect and misremembering, which I was; Ultramarines did indeed manage to break 50% win rate a few months. I think, however, that we were talking past each other: I was looking at "Space Marines of all types" at a Codex level, while you were looking at a Chapter Tactic level. I can't find a single month this year when Codex: Space Marines had an above 50% win rate, although it is admittedly not as bad as I first claimed. Still closer to 40% than 50% most of the months since February.

Also, a lot of Ultramarine winning was with G-man. If you aren't using him Ultramarines are significantly less competitive. I mean, they still do fairly well (I play them) but relying on a crutch does not make a "good" army.

A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.

Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.

People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.

Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.

If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.

How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.

Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.

Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.

People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.

Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.

If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.

How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.

Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.

So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.

 Togusa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.

Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.

What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.

FFS this mentality of either side (casual vs competitive) being righ twhile the other one isnt pisses me off so much. Warhammer is a game, like any game, people have different reason for playing it. You can play it to enjoy a story (like DnD) or you can play it to try and be as competitive as possible (Chess). Both ways are perfectly fine. Everytime someone comes out of the woodworks and says that "thats not what the game is about" just shows how obtuse they are. It might not be what its about for you but its still what its about for someone else.

The fact that GW thinks their shoddy balance is fine because "just play it RAI instead of RAW" sucks because if they had a proper ruleset, both sides of the equation would benefit.

It's kind of hard when one of those two sides grossly out numbers the other. I have two stores in my neighborhood that I can choose to patron. 1 of them is nothing by WAACs, the other is much more casual. Guess which store outnumbers the other 10 to 1?

I'm lucky to even have the other store too, most people don't even get that.

I can't actually guess which one is more popular. From my experience, both are present in all the stores i've visited (granted i live in a city with many stores nearby).

Still, i dont think its fair for any side to dismiss the other. I play 40k both ways, i dont feel like demanding good rules only affects one of the two groups.

For some reason a nicely balanced and consolidated rule set scares the casual players.

No, it doesn't. We know that they can't balance their game worth a damn. Look at Cultists. 1 Build was making them OP, so they just Nuked the unit to the point it wasn't even playable. That's not fixing it, that's knee-jerking.

...and therefore we shouldn't ask for them to try harder? I don't get your point.

 cuda1179 wrote:
So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.

Well, that is one of the benchmark miracles people are waiting to see. If GW's efforts manages to significantly raise/buff the rock-bottom army of the meta ladder, that's only a good sign for every other army above them. Right now it feels like GKs are still paying for their 5ed sins...Though since GKs don't actually/even get Primaris models for GW to push consumers to buy...that miracle hail mary buff for GKs - is at least twice the improbability....

AngryAngel80 wrote:
A point of order, if you would. This always happens, we point fingers at each other each time a codex is released and a faction is too strong. We toss hate and vitriol at each other and squabble like children over who got what better. None of us are immune to it.

Yes marines are too good, yes other armies have been, but once you get a bad taste in your mouth that doesn't fade easy and around most places because of all the releases and over the top support marines get and have only gotten better, marines draw a lot of hate.

People don't forget the hate, and it doesn't matter why they had it. At the start of the edition Guard were op, so guard were so bad evil wicked. Scions were too strong, they got re costed and rules changed now people think they are poop, seemingly. Now guard are mostly just CP batteries for knights, which got worse but still, they are the bad guys even without real mono dex greatness to speak of.

Same goes for Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, on and on.

If things aren't op, then they are crap, least in some places, but if certain forces become too op, oh we best make sure they never forget their shame.

How about we stop attacking each other over it ? Marines needed a buff, the buff was way too large. If GW pushes through to further buff it, it'll be a real mistake but GW can't be worse at balance than my already floor level expectations. Just take a breath, and point the blame where it belongs, at GW for failing all of us with this crap.

Turning on each other is what they would want, covering for them is what they would want. Lets not do it all for them and hold them to account if its true, until its corrected and lets all give each other a pass. We aren't the problem, hate the game, not the player as the saying goes or more to the point the game designers.

Sigh. You were being fairly reasonable up until the end, and then the tinfoil hat came out.
All the vitriol is pointless, even that directed at the designers.

If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.

However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.

There is blame to be given, but I'd really rather we have it on the only people who can fix the problem, which is the designers. Ideally I'd love to not have any anger and just have them actually fix it but for that to happen they'd need some unified idea of how to balance the books and design them together. As is they seem to have the most off the wall design process where no one knows what each other is doing and it honestly feels so backward for such a large company, especially when all the products are made to interact together in some form of balance.

Outside that, I'd just love them to come right out on the community site and tell the players. " None of our stuff is made to be balanced, if it ends up so it's a happy coincidence but you'll just need to deal with dramatic imbalance. " Something clean, concise and honest, if that is what they are doing. I promise I'd never comment on the imbalances and poor state of things sometimes if they said that as I'd not expect it. As is the closest they come is random interviews found here and there where they hint to that but never directly say it. It's the lack of clarity in their purpose and drive that I think makes some people a little bothered. As we end up with issues, like this, where we fight over it.

" Yes they are good, get over it. " " They are op " " When will we get our stuff ? " No one wants to feel like they are ignored, and GW has done that for many. As the books keep coming if only Marines get significant buffs and others get meh stuff, it would tend to just twist the knife further. All I'd ask is we not blame each other and just agree we'd like a rising tide to raise all boats as it were. Not every codex will be gold, but neither should some just be polished turds either, there should be some parity even if you need to work harder to win.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
So much truth was just spoken here. How about we all just keep our fingers crossed that the marines that get buffed are the non-codex ones that actually need buffing (GK we are looking at you) and that the bottom of the barrel factions like Necron either get massive buffs or slashed in points by 20% or more.

Well, that is one of the benchmark miracles people are waiting to see. If GW's efforts manages to significantly raise/buff the rock-bottom army of the meta ladder, that's only a good sign for every other army above them. Right now it feels like GKs are still paying for their 5ed sins...Though since GKs don't actually/even get Primaris models for GW to push consumers to buy...that miracle hail mary buff for GKs - is at least twice the improbability....

Hypothetically, I can see GK getting a new codex at some point. If they do I think they might get a primaris unit (GK special unit, or some standard box with an amazing accessory sprue) plus the vehicles. It's either that or they will be left in a forgotten corner like an abused red-headed stepchild.

GK apparently get more than most out of PA because GW are well aware that they are underperforming. According to the guys at Frontline the same will happen to most underperforming factions (they’ll get more stuff out of PA). Take it as you want, it might be sales speak.

Despite all the negativity around them I have seen a few mono GK lists make the top 4 and even win tournaments. It’s not like it’s impossible.

Once again: forget about any faction getting a new Codex anytime soon.
The usual French source wrote a couple of weeks ago that until June 2020 there won’t be any new Codex (excluding Sisters in January-February), just Psychic Awakening books for the announced factions.
Then, in June we’re apparently getting a new edition which is going to be like 8.5, with consolidated rules and minor changes (no alternating activations), and the current codices will still be valid.

Between this Chapter Approved, the remaining Psychic Awakening books and the big spring FAQs lies the hope of getting a balanced game.
My guess is that CA will only touch points and MAYBE a datasheet or two, but any rules change will happen in PA books or FAQs.

As for the remaining rumours from that source:
- SW vs Orks is going to be either PA4 or the starter set for the new 8.5 edition in the summer (this rumour has been going back and forth on the internet too much)
- new upcoming models: Ghazghkull Thraka for Orks, Illuminor Szeras for Necrons



ps: I’m not French myself, my mobile phone carrier is and it displays a French flag here for some reason

Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

I mean it's good to have hope, but some armies, like say CSM, should have had their buffed codex already then and with sisters looking to be not exactly space marine level I'd be very surprised if we see parity in codex powers even in the 9th edition.

Though I will say, until sisters drop and we get actual game play with all the new units and synergies etc I'll refrain from judgement on power level of the army. On paper it doesn't look to be as strong though.

I'd say other marine factions should have some hope however with their rules in PA if BT and BA turn out well served in the books rules wise.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.

I'm definitly fed up with having to look for rules in many different sources. Codex, Erratas, FW Index, Erratas, BRB, BigFAQ, CA and now PA books or even Codex Supplements, ignoring campaign books like Vigilus.
It's almost like playing DnD 3.5 again.

 Aenar wrote:
I'm definitly fed up with having to look for rules in many different sources. Codex, Erratas, FW Index, Erratas, BRB, BigFAQ, CA and now PA books or even Codex Supplements, ignoring campaign books like Vigilus.
It's almost like playing DnD 3.5 again.

CSM alone have 5 rulessources , without their corresponding FAQ's and CA. Which would catapult that to 11 differing rules sources. (of course not all are needed of these (codex 2.0 removes the need for dex one not even Shadowspear due to WL traits for psykers beeing stuck in the booklet.)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
GK apparently get more than most out of PA because GW are well aware that they are underperforming. According to the guys at Frontline the same will happen to most underperforming factions (they’ll get more stuff out of PA). Take it as you want, it might be sales speak.

Despite all the negativity around them I have seen a few mono GK lists make the top 4 and even win tournaments. It’s not like it’s impossible.

We will know soon enough if this is true.

Let's see what happen to tyranids.

 Togusa wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
Well on the off chance this rumor is true. Tau don't have to worry about the shield drone price increase. Losing the FNP makes them useless. I hope everyone likes facing 30-50 gun drones in a list.

Instead of relying on GW to infinitely balance the game, the community of players could simply choose to stop min/maxing their armies to no benefit.

What a community we'd be if we'd just play for fun instead of for head smashing.

I wasn't talking about a min-maxing perspective. The second round of rumors (that is almost certainly fake) said that shield drones would lose their FNP against mortal wounds. Savior protocols deals mortal wounds. This means that savior protocols would instantly kill the shield drone, you know, that model that only exists to tank wounds and has no other abilities. There would literally be no strategic reason to take shield drones over gun drones even without a point increase because the shield drone would offer no benefit. At least a gun drone gets to shoot in the shooting phase before it instantly dies to savior protocols. They are basically saying "Hey remember how we had to add a FNP to shield drones during the index to make them viable, then removed it in the codex and had to FAQ it again. Then removed it in kill team and had to FAQ it again? We decided we didn't like that change despite implementing it 3 times."

But again, I think this rumor has been debunked so it doesn't matter.

BrianDavion wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes Spears and axes become assault 3 shooting. gunswords become pistol 4.

Venerable Landraiders drop to 150pts bare.

Jetbikes become 59ppm.

Melta Missiles become frag assault 6, krak assault 2. Same as to the rest of the profile.

Damage on swords are now flat 1, Spears 2, axes 3, fists 3. No more randomness please.

Allarus Terminators drop to 45pts. They shouldn't cost more than bikes.

Is this an actual rumor, or just wishlisting? If an actual rumor I can get on board with it. Basic Custodes need help with shooting.

pretty sure it's wish listing,

It came out of my butt, however I'm fairly positive it has the exact same amount of truth as the "French reddit rumors" that are circulating....

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.

Very true, I'm honestly right now not sure if I'm going to buy the PA book any time soon because of this. Also, I'm sick and tired of DG and TS getting absolutely none of the new CSM stuff. None of the new daemon engines, models like obliterators, no MoP, no new infantry weapons, no new stratagems, no new relics, nothing. This is especially bad for TS as that army is horrendously underdeveloped. At least DG has some cool elites and HQ units and some effective and unique daemon engines.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

I don't know about other CSM players, but i am kinda fed up though with needeing to constantly buy new dexes and books.

"I'm sick of buying new codices" is the sentiment that produces stuff like codex space marines 8th edition 2.0 sadly :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

the only reason I doubt a complete lack of new codices until June is because Blood ofg the Pheonix really does feel like the typical thing GW puts out a few months before the factions involved get a new codex.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

Then the only logical conclusion we can draw is that Space Marines will be extremely weak in 9th, by virtue of being the first codex released, just like in 8th.

So maybe this couple of months being the top dog is the only thing they'll have going for them. We shouldn't be that mad, after 2 years of only Gorillaman being competitive...

 Eldarsif wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

If Aenar's rumors are true then it would explain things a bit.

AoS saw a strange leap in Codex power right before 2.0 was released for example.

It was less "codex power" and more "codex design philosophy".

 Galas wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aenar is absolutely correct on the remaining rumours. I’ll add that one of the French guys (who claimed that 9th Ed was coming after PA) also said that the SM codex was effectively a 9th Ed codex. The implication is that other factions will be getting a new codex too, but we’ll see.

Then the only logical conclusion we can draw is that Space Marines will be extremely weak in 9th, by virtue of being the first codex released, just like in 8th.

So maybe this couple of months being the top dog is the only thing they'll have going for them. We shouldn't be that mad, after 2 years of only Gorillaman being competitive...

Nah, they'll just probably be out of the top 3 for a year at most. SM have never been and never will be "extremely weak". It's just that most SM players feel like their army is absolute trash unless it's one of the 2-3 top tier armies. As a SW player I'm satisfied with my codex and the current state of my army while I'm sure that for many SM players SW are pure garbage at the moment.

How to buff a unit in 40k:

1) Don't play the unit
2) Don't buy the unit


How to nerf a unit in 40k:

1) Play the unit a lot
2) Buy the unit a lot
3) Do well with the unit at tournaments