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 Casbyness wrote:
How to buff a unit in 40k:

1) Don't play the unit
2) Don't buy the unit


How to nerf a unit in 40k:

1) Play the unit a lot
2) Buy the unit a lot
3) Do well with the unit at tournaments

That nakes no sense, Hellions haven't been used for decades and they haven't gotten any buffs either.

Summer next year is a long time away, I strongly doubt that all we will be getting is piecemeal releases of factions until that time. I would say there should be at least one decent release after Sisters before 9th drops. I don't know if this will be the launch of the Gravis armour line for Primaris or something else, but I think GW will need to dump something fairly substantial between February and June. I don't see necrons or Tau needing anything major (mostly plastic lines already, same with Deathwatch...they just need access to new minis that already exist).
Deathguard, Tzeentch and harlies (if harlies are getting anything more than what was in Blood of the Phoenix...i.e. access to Ynnari) are doubtful too. One of the things I could see as a big release for GW would involve either Dark Angels (Gravis Deathwing intro) or new Fallen faction models. Could we get another primarch in the Lion? Perhaps (maybe the culmination of the psychic awakening....him waking up).
Other candidate I guess would be a Gravis/Grey Knight Primaris line vs daemons.

It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.

However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.
.

'Attacking each other' and 'holding them to account' are unrelated concepts, that's the tinfoil part (yelling on the internet and design criticism aren't a zero sum game). I'd love to see less of the former, but unity and division have jack-squat to do with the customers of a game of toy soldiers- this isn't a political movement.

Their PR division wants to convince people to buy their products... If you think there's more to it than that, I don't know what to tell you.

 Burnage wrote:
We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.

Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.

When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?

They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
We only saw four Codex releases in 2019, two of which were the tail end of every faction getting a Codex (GSC and Chaos Knights), one was just a slight update (CSM) and the fourth being the obvious upgrade to SM. With Psychic Awakening in full swing and the Sisters Codex getting an official release outside of the box set in early 2020, it seems entirely plausible to me that other Codex releases will have slowed down enough so that we won't see the next one until Summer.

Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.

I bet it's a wave of Gravis Marines.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.

A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.

Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.

None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.

Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.

GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.

 Kanluwen wrote:
When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?

They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.

If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot. Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?

They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.

If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot.

Cool ad hominem, bro.

Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.

Your post:

bullyboy wrote:Not thinking codexes (although you did forget the 6 additional marine supplements btw), but actual model releases. GW knos 40K is their big seller, by far. After sisters, they will need another "big" push of something.

The problem with your post is that you seemed to treat the "6 additional marine supplements" as "actual model releases".

They weren't. It was a purposeful drawing out of what could have been a fairly quick release. We saw almost as much stuff come out with the Ossiarch release as the entirety of the Marines release, yet it wasn't drawn across three flipping months.

The other problem, of course, is that you also seem to be treating the supplements as "additional codices".
They aren't. They're lacking all of the unit profiles one would need to actually field an army--although I guess you can exclude Ultramarines from that as they had some signature units in their book that nobody else had.

You need to read it again, nothing about the codex was related to model releases. Simply that you have to count them as codex releases (to counter other post about limited codex releases).

They still require printing time, production etc. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.

 bullyboy wrote:
You need to read it again, nothing about the codex was related to model releases. Simply that you have to count them as cidex releases (to counter other post about limited codex releases).

They still require printing time, production etc. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.

Okay, so is White Dwarf a Codex?

Telling people to "read it again" because they find your argument to be fallacious isn't going to suddenly change their mind. You're conflating things together to shift goalposts and when called out on it, you've resorted to name-calling and acting like people "just don't understand!".

For the record though? Raven Guard supplement was printed by a company called "Artron" in China, the main codex by "C&C" in China.
They could have released these things together if orders were submitted and ready by the same time.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:
Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.

GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.

Honestly, I've always assumed if they did up points to make balance work out better, they'd just bump the cap they operate at. There's no real difference at playing a 4k game if the points have doubled, but it would mean the difference between a guardsman and a conscript could be made clear.

That said, competitive comp will never even be broached if ITC is driving the play testing unless someone has a knife out for a particular build.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.

A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.

Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.

None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.

Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.

GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.

Players are largely at fault for this. For a long time, GW routinely played at a smaller points level than a lot of tournaments and non-competitive groups. 1500 vs 2000, and it makes a big difference.
If people choose to play bigger games, that has little to do with the rules and a lot on their own preferences. The game doesn't mandate any such thing.

Even now ITC plays at 2000 and GW at 1750.

And those 250 points already change the meta quite a bit.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
When exactly did you think the "Marine Supplements" would come out? With an updated Tau book?

They announced the supplements at the same event as the Codex itself. It was ridiculous to think that it would come out at any other point, and pretending that the supplement releases weren't just an extension of the codex release is silly. Especially since they literally dragged out the releases for the codex itself to make it so that it wasn't just the supplement, character, and upgrade kits when the supplements got released.

If you're responding to my post....you're being an idiot. Nothing was mentioned on timing, simply that you can't ignore that there 6 additional books to the marine one so needs to be counted in the codex count. Again, wasn't the point of my post, more interested in potential mini releases.

You seem to be regarding the supplements as indavidual codexes. They are not, they are supplements, they are add ons to the Codex: Space Marine without which you could not run a Raven Guard, Ultramarine etc... army.

We have had 3 main codexes released this year (Space Marines, GSC and Chaos Knights), an update so minor if you already had the previous codex you didn't even need it (CSM) and a release limited to a boxset (Sisters).

I do agree with you that I find it very hard to believe that GW will, between Summer 2019 and Summer 2020 have a grand total of 2 major releases for 40K though, even if one of those (Space Marines) has been needlesly spread out over 4 months. Even at the back end of 7th, when they'd effectively given up on the edition, we had a lot more come out than that.

Voss wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
If you don't think a company with an active PR group isn't trying to sway public opinion their way, you may want to try a tin foil hat, it does wonders. That isn't a conspiracy, the more we attack each other the less we hold them to account, that's just logic.

However while that is my opinion on their efforts, it takes nothing away from the fact of attacking each other and trying to hold each other down does nothing but hurt us for no real gain and sow division when their should be unity.
.

'Attacking each other' and 'holding them to account' are unrelated concepts, that's the tinfoil part (yelling on the internet and design criticism aren't a zero sum game). I'd love to see less of the former, but unity and division have jack-squat to do with the customers of a game of toy soldiers- this isn't a political movement.

Their PR division wants to convince people to buy their products... If you think there's more to it than that, I don't know what to tell you.

If you get " political movement " out of my words, I think maybe you're reading unintended things into my words. If you can't see that us blaming each other for being beardy power gamers for why the system doesn't work over agreement the company needs to do better in codex parity is working at cross purposes, I don't think we see the same problems.

Unity has everything to do with public sentiment and only in unity to demand a quality effort can change be at the least really pressed for. It is never a promise, as the company can just do what it wants but a happy customer is good and an angry base is bad especially when everyone is on the same page. Company PR doesn't just want to sell you models, they want also to keep the company in a positive image as that is also good for sales for customer satisfaction, yet again, if you don't understand that, I don't know what I could tell you either. Spin is common place for any kind of PR to minimize mistakes, pump hype and over inflate success. While that does impact sales it also has other benefits.

Darsath wrote:
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...

I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Darsath wrote:
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...

I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.

Given Suppressors don't have a full kit and neither does the venom crawler, I'm guessing we'll be seeing new releases and codexes for both space marines and chaos within the next year or two. But frankly, if we're hitting the end of an edition and have relatively limited other content these supplements make a whole lot of sense, great way to sell a whole bunch of marines without having to make new ones and you could always axe the rule bloat first thing next edition.

So, enjoy your riot boys. I expect people to keep complaining regardless of what we get, but frankly we all know the reason so many of us have space marine armies. It's nice to have something that gets releases.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
So, enjoy your riot boys. I expect people to keep complaining regardless of what we get, but frankly we all know the reason so many of us have space marine armies. It's nice to have something that gets releases.

I'll honestly admit to why I have them.

1- LOTS of kitbash/conversion potential that doesn't require a whole lot of chopping and green stuff.

2- Doesn't require hundreds of infantry models to build, buy, and paint.

3- Playing Deathwatch means that there are very few models from other chapters that I can't "steal".

The leaked info talked about CA release 7th of Dec... So today they have to announce the preorder of CA 2019 along with PA 3 if the list is still spot on... Isn't that right???

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Darsath wrote:
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...

I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.

the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Darsath wrote:
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...

I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.

How many Dynastys, Orders, Kabals, Craftworlds, Septs, Regiments, Cults, Hive Fleets etc have a single upgrade pack - you can;t buy whats not there can you but hey lets just make stuff for Marines and then ask - why are people buying that and not the non existant stuff for other factions.

On the few occassions that they do somehing new - like say Sisters - oh look it sold out in less than ten minutes for a 2 week pre-order.

But hey back to Marines in PA3, 4.. 5....6...

Wouldn't mind seeing an upgrade sprue for Nids with generic adrenal glands and toxin sacs and maybe something extra.

There's no design intent behind which model has access to those, some melee monsters can use them, some ranged monsters can use them...the only criteria is whether the kit has the bits on a sprue.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Darsath wrote:
It's entirely possible that Games Workshop will switch focus to Age of Sigmar and their specialized games. Though if the next big 40k release is another Space Marine launch, there will be a riot.

Everyone says that, but the models tend to fly off the shelves. So, unless that riot is at the cash register...

I'm pretty much on board with slowing down the Marine releases (unless it's something related to CSM). At this point, I'd be happy if they focused on little cosmetic items like the Chapter Upgrade packs. Still quite a few chapters out there without those things, and they can focus the mechanics/rules on other factions for a bit.

the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing

Especially csm books....

Points levels make a large difference for some factions.

A lot of the top performing builds will fade out at 1750 or 1500 because they won't be able to get the CP from min battalions to get their build to work.

Certain units/factions are broken in terms of points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
ITC based competitive players being part of the play test has me more or less expecting no real resolution to balance in 40k.

A lot of the answers can be found in re-pricing things people love to be far more expensive, but it's not going to happen because people are stuck at the idea of running 2k points and don't see the need for meaningful opportunity cost to special weapons or units.

Or we could take the axe to bloated unit line ups and thin out the design space a bit.

None of which I see coming from the ITC community or competitive players in general.

Playtesters and comp aren't solely at fault.

GW undoubtedly sees advantages to having standard format with such a high point limit, along with rather low ppm for many of the goodies.

Players are largely at fault for this. For a long time, GW routinely played at a smaller points level than a lot of tournaments and non-competitive groups. 1500 vs 2000, and it makes a big difference.
If people choose to play bigger games, that has little to do with the rules and a lot on their own preferences. The game doesn't mandate any such thing.

Point levels don't really make a difference because someone is gonna meet the rule of three for things like Flyrants and Commanders and Dissies and such.

It's mathematically obvious when certain units are broken. You blaming the players is solely white knighting at its finest.

Hardly. For one thing, I'm not jabbering about units being broken. I'm simply pointing out that larger games are a player choice. It can never be anything BUT player choice- GW doesn't come to your house/store/tourney and insist on a point level.

And pointing out that the claim about 'GW seeing the advantages of a high point' limit is completely false, as it goes against decades of reality, where GW events were consistently at lower points than independent events.

It's a claim that simply isn't true, and easily proved to be nonsense.

BrianDavion wrote:
the fact is that dakkadaka (and every other website) represents a minority. GW proably has, through sales, a better view as to whats popular then we do. that said I'd be down for a nice long lull in marine release schedule. One of the problems of being a Marine player (especially if you also collect CSMs) is that keeping up with the releases can be difficult, that pile of shame just keeps growing

Dakkadakka is very much a minority. You can find facebook, discord, and reddit groups that have very different perspectives from the Dakka one. On top of that, if you ask a few people if they go onto 40k forums or anything online, they'll just say, "Oh, Hell no. Those places are awful". Most of my friends that have played tabletop games for years only go online to look at releases, reviews, and basic tactics talk. As one of my friends put it, "40k internet groups are the reason I was afraid to go play with strangers, I was concerned the entitled and irrational behavior was the norm". And of course, we all know, most 40k players IRL are very chill people and the lunatics are rare- interacting with human beings in reality tends to ensure those sorts are kept out, or at least on the far peripheral with whispered disclaimers about "that dude".

As far as the releases, I think GW has Vanilla SM where they need to be. There's still the snowflake SM factions, and they'll get around to updating them. In the meantime, I think it's about time they focused on Xenos.

And no, it's not because I'm a Xenos player or anything, it's so people will hush about not getting anything or prove my point about some players still crying no matter what they get. It's a win for me, either way.

If we can stay on topic for a moment, I think that Games Workshop's lower focus on Chapter Approved this year (assuming the December 7th release date is true) could hint towards less content or production time than in past years. I could theorise that the other releases that are coming out around the same time, such as the new PA and sisters release, would mean less time devoted to CA. I hope that some of the lesser Xenos races gets stuff, and that the other Space Marine factions get updated to at least match the vanilla Space Marine codex. We'll see soon enough.