Chapter Approved 2019

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**Gadzilla666**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

Maybe they're holding off announcing that the stompa is dropping to 450.

That's sarcasm btw.

**Apple Peel**

Eldarsif wrote:
Can we stay on topic and discuss actual leaks? I really do not want another 3 page discussions about grots/Guardsmen.

Yes you do, don’t lie.

**An Actual Englishman**

Eldarsif wrote:
Can we stay on topic and discuss actual leaks? I really do not want another 3 page discussions about grots/Guardsmen.

As the price of Grots features in the OP and is directly related to Chapter Approved (the topic) and Rumours (the board subsection) I don't see how you could consider it off topic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

Maybe they're holding off announcing that the stompa is dropping to 450.

That's sarcasm btw.

Should this happen I'd literally buy 3 within 5 minutes.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Alternative Solution:

Run a single Grot "Counts as Eisenhorn"

Run Orks as Deffwotch (Deathwatch)

Be the best thing ever.

**the_scotsman**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Alternative Solution:

Run a single Grot "Counts as Eisenhorn"

Run Orks as Deffwotch (Deathwatch)

Be the best thing ever.

"The choppas count as storm shields. The sluggas count as storm bolters. The shootas count as frag cannons. This is my ork army."

**An Actual Englishman**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Alternative Solution:

Run a single Grot "Counts as Eisenhorn"

Run Orks as Deffwotch (Deathwatch)

Be the best thing ever.

Crack on with that dude.

I'd rather run my Orks as Orks, though I've seen a 'Custodorks' army that was very tempting.

**Adeptus Doritos**

An Actual Englishman wrote:

Crack on with that dude.

I'd rather run my Orks as Orks, though I've seen a 'Custodorks' army that was very tempting.

With rusted Gard'yun Speerz? ADEPTUS TETANUS!

**Eldarsif**

Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might kill them from lists.

**Nurglitch**

I'm hoping Tyranids manage to shed some more points. Termagants and Hormagaunts could be 3pts each.

**Burnage**

Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might be the final nail in their coffin. GW needs to admit they did a mistake with Prophets.

I'm not sure I agree with Venoms going down being a good thing - they were already one of the strongest DE units so a buff seems incredibly unnecessary. Until further evidence appears I'm assuming this was a misreading or a printing error.

18 points on the Talos does seem like an incredibly hard nerf compared to every other change we're seeing. They deserved a nerf, but probably more in the 5-10 points range... If Cronos go down, as has been rumoured, I think we're going to wind up seeing them making an appearance just as dirt cheap blobs of T6 W7 models.

**the_scotsman**

If grotesques don't go up talos are super duper dead. That's like a 25% nerf.

**deTox91**

As a TS player so far I feel pretty shafted, the increases overwaight the decreases quite badly, the DPoT at 195 because of bloody soup lists hurt, TGors at 8 point also suck big time, hope there's more to be seen, I've painted too much recently for this to be real...

**Eldarsif**

Burnage wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might be the final nail in their coffin. GW needs to admit they did a mistake with Prophets.

I'm not sure I agree with Venoms going down being a good thing - they were already one of the strongest DE units so a buff seems incredibly unnecessary. Until further evidence appears I'm assuming this was a misreading or a printing error.

18 points on the Talos does seem like an incredibly hard nerf compared to every other change we're saying. They deserved a nerf, but probably more in the 5-10 points range... If Crono go down, as has been rumoured, I think we're going to wind up seeing them making an appearance just as dirt cheap blobs of T6 W7 models.

My guess is that there are weapon point changes that explain the Venom drop. However, it is a bit more difficult with the Talos as it doesn't have its own explicit Haywire entry and nerfing Talos Haywire would also nerf Scourge Haywire. Which is why I assume is why they gave the Talos such a hefty nerf.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
I'm hoping Tyranids manage to shed some more points. Termagants and Hormagaunts could be 3pts each.

Not sure if dropping Termagants and Hormagaunst further would be a good thing, but I agree that Tyranids need some love. Sadly the current leaks are not really promising. I just hope that the new PA book makes up for some of that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
If grotesques don't go up talos are super duper dead. That's like a 25% nerf.

Too heavy of a nerf in my opinion. I would have understood a slight nerf, but 18 is way over top.

**Gadzilla666**

i

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Can we stay on topic and discuss actual leaks? I really do not want another 3 page discussions about grots/Guardsmen.

As the price of Grots features in the OP and is directly related to Chapter Approved (the topic) and Rumours (the board subsection) I don't see how you could consider it off topic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

Maybe they're holding off announcing that the stompa is dropping to 450.

That's sarcasm btw.

Should this happen I'd literally buy 3 within 5 minutes.

See gw? Proof! Give xenos/chaos good rules and they'll sell too! Not just fething marines!

In all honesty the stompa and all non ik/ck low should come down. Maybe the wraithknight drop is a good sign.

**the_scotsman**

deTox91 wrote:
As a TS player so far I feel pretty shafted, the increases overwaight the decreases quite badly, the DPoT at 195 because of bloody soup lists hurt, TGors at 8 point also suck big time, hope there's more to be seen, I've painted too much recently for this to be real...

My tsons policy of "F the Goatmen" has been paying off pretty much every time they get changes though.

**xttz**

Nurglitch wrote:
I'm hoping Tyranids manage to shed some more points. Termagants and Hormagaunts could be 3pts each.

The Tyranid leaks cover all units alphabetically from the Sporocyst. Termagants definitely haven't changed, no news on Horms yet.

**deTox91**

the_scotsman wrote:
deTox91 wrote:
As a TS player so far I feel pretty shafted, the increases overwaight the decreases quite badly, the DPoT at 195 because of bloody soup lists hurt, TGors at 8 point also suck big time, hope there's more to be seen, I've painted too much recently for this to be real...

My tsons policy of "F the Goatmen" has been paying off pretty much every time they get changes though.

Agree but given the lack of options given that the Rubrics are still crazy expensive for no good reason I'd rather play goats then cultists... F the cultists...

**the_scotsman**

deTox91 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
deTox91 wrote:
As a TS player so far I feel pretty shafted, the increases overwaight the decreases quite badly, the DPoT at 195 because of bloody soup lists hurt, TGors at 8 point also suck big time, hope there's more to be seen, I've painted too much recently for this to be real...

My tsons policy of "F the Goatmen" has been paying off pretty much every time they get changes though.

Agree but given the lack of options given that the Rubrics are still crazy expensive for no good reason I'd rather play goats then cultists... F the cultists...

Rubrics are 16ppm at this point. A 5-man rubric squad doesn't have options but does have AP-2 boltguns and a psychic power they get to choose after seeing their opponents stuff.

A min rubric squad now costs as much as a tzaangor squad+1 force weapon. They put out 8 S4 ap-2 shots at 24" plus 1 mortal wound.

**BoomWolf**

Rubrics DO have options with flamers.

We'll see if they fit cheap enough to be viable (probably not), but it exists.

**An Actual Englishman**

Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might kill them from lists.

If GW didn't want Orks to spam CP they probably shouldn't have made them so CP dependent. Our units are costed as if they are using he best stratagems for them.

Venom spam is a thing, they didn't need a drop.

Both Shining Spears and Dark Reapers have featured in a recently successful Eldar list. Perhaps Dark Reapers deserved a drop. 2++ Shining Spears didn't.

Vypers are a great unit for their price now.

Not sure an Ork Boy should cost the same as a Banshee...

E - sp

**deTox91**

BoomWolf wrote:
Rubrics DO have options with flamers.

We'll see if they fit cheap enough to be viable (probably not), but it exists.

I've just finished painting 15 bolt gun Rubrics... If flamer becomes the go to option I'll eat my socks

**VladimirHerzog**

deTox91 wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Rubrics DO have options with flamers.

We'll see if they fit cheap enough to be viable (probably not), but it exists.

I've just finished painting 15 bolt gun Rubrics... If flamer becomes the go to option I'll eat my socks

i bought my 1ksons used so all my rubrics came with boltguns, if the flamer becomes better i'll just play them count as.

**Eldarsif**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might kill them from lists.

If GW didn't want Orks to spam CP they probably shouldn't have made them so CP dependent. Our units are costes as I'd they are using he best stratagems for them.

Venom spam is a thing, they didn't need a drop.

Both Shining Spears and Dark Reapers have featured in a recently successful Eldar list. Perhaps Dark Reapers deserved a drop. 2++ Shining Spears didn't.

Vypers are a great unit for their price now.

Not sure an Ork Boy should cost the same as a Banshee...

All armies are CP dependent, but only a few can farm CP like candy.

Venom spam is a thing because a lot of stuff in the Drukhari codex just isn't going to do much. Maybe lower Kabablites to 5 points and then we could look at increasing the venom. Although, as I've mentioned, I do think that the venom hasn't really gone down by 10 points. I expect to see TL Splinter Rifles go up to 6-7 bringing them more in line with the Splinter Cannon so there isn't as much of an obvious X > Y.

Vypers are not a great unit. Maybe if they get built in that they can move without getting a minus for heavy weapon(and without Saim hann trait) we can maybe agree on something.

Despite Banshee costing the same as Ork boy nobody is going to take a Banshee because S3/T3 ain't going to get you far. Plus the Stratagems and synergy Orks can get are force multiplying the Ork much better than any synergy for the Banshee.

**Imateria**

Eldarsif wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might kill them from lists.

If GW didn't want Orks to spam CP they probably shouldn't have made them so CP dependent. Our units are costes as I'd they are using he best stratagems for them.

Venom spam is a thing, they didn't need a drop.

Both Shining Spears and Dark Reapers have featured in a recently successful Eldar list. Perhaps Dark Reapers deserved a drop. 2++ Shining Spears didn't.

Vypers are a great unit for their price now.

Not sure an Ork Boy should cost the same as a Banshee...

All armies are CP dependent, but only a few can farm CP like candy.

Venom spam is a thing because a lot of stuff in the Drukhari codex just isn't going to do much. Maybe lower Kabablites to 5 points and then we could look at increasing the venom. Although, as I've mentioned, I do think that the venom hasn't really gone down by 10 points. I expect to see TL Splinter Rifles go up to 6-7 bringing them more in line with the Splinter Cannon so there isn't as much of an obvious X > Y.

Vypers are not a great unit. Maybe if they get built in that they can move without getting a minus for heavy weapon(and without Saim hann trait) we can maybe agree on something.

Despite Banshee costing the same as Ork boy nobody is going to take a Banshee because S3/T3 ain't going to get you far. Plus the Stratagems and synergy Orks can get are force multiplying the Ork much better than any synergy for the Banshee.

Kabalites are fine at 6ppm, I wouldn't want them to move either way. The real problem of the Venom going down is that invalidates Raiders hard now with potentially a 25pt difference, the points efficiency has just tipped massively to one side.

**An Actual Englishman**

Eldarsif wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Then I feel obligated to counter that endless grot talk because I really don't want 20 pages of grot talk and 9 pages of others. Although a better fix would have been that Grots don't count for detachment filling for CP. So no 3 squads of grots and 2 HQ to get 5CP.

The Venom going down is a good thing although I do fear Twin Splinter Rifles has gone up so it's not a complete 10 point discount on those. Only two vehicles in the Drukhari arsenal use TL Splinter Rifles and both of them have been stables.

Shining Spears and Dark Reapers going down is a good thing since the Ynnari meta is dead. No need to punish those units anymore.

Dark Lances going down is good considering how they were rarely if ever chosen in the current meta.

The Vyper could have gone down further. It's not like it's the hottest stuff on the board. Same with Falcon really.

Talos shouldn't have gone up this much. Might kill them from lists.

If GW didn't want Orks to spam CP they probably shouldn't have made them so CP dependent. Our units are costes as I'd they are using he best stratagems for them.

Venom spam is a thing, they didn't need a drop.

Both Shining Spears and Dark Reapers have featured in a recently successful Eldar list. Perhaps Dark Reapers deserved a drop. 2++ Shining Spears didn't.

Vypers are a great unit for their price now.

Not sure an Ork Boy should cost the same as a Banshee...

All armies are CP dependent, but only a few can farm CP like candy.

Venom spam is a thing because a lot of stuff in the Drukhari codex just isn't going to do much. Maybe lower Kabablites to 5 points and then we could look at increasing the venom. Although, as I've mentioned, I do think that the venom hasn't really gone down by 10 points. I expect to see TL Splinter Rifles go up to 6-7 bringing them more in line with the Splinter Cannon so there isn't as much of an obvious X > Y.

Vypers are not a great unit. Maybe if they get built in that they can move without getting a minus for heavy weapon(and without Saim hann trait) we can maybe agree on something.

Despite Banshee costing the same as Ork boy nobody is going to take a Banshee because S3/T3 ain't going to get you far. Plus the Stratagems and synergy Orks can get are force multiplying the Ork much better than any synergy for the Banshee.

Not all armies are equally CP dependent though. Orks need CP so need to farm it. Without it we simply don't compete at any level.

Venom spam is a thing because Venoms are criminally undercosted. This doesn't help.

I've played many times against Vypers this edition. They were good before this most recent drop in price. Now they're great. They don't need the innate ignore hit modifier (take Saim Hann). If they get it they'd need to go up again.

Nobody is going to take Boyz if they stay at 7ppm, they are already becoming less popular because they simply don't achieve much. A 30 man squad is routinely killed in overwatch. Not a problem for Banshees. Also stacking -2 to hit on Banshees can make them problematic. Not that it's needed, they are a very cheap tar pit. Tar pits win games because they restrict enemy movement and therefore board control.

**Eldarsif**

Nobody is going to take Boyz if they stay at 7ppm, they are already becoming less popular because they simply don't achieve much. A 30 man squad is routinely killed in overwatch. Not a problem for Banshees. Also stacking -2 to hit on Banshees can make them problematic. Not that it's needed, they are a very cheap tar pit. Tar pits win games because they restrict enemy movement and therefore board control.

Wyches can be a tarpit(4+ invuln and FnP, add net for flavor), not Banshees. Banshees used to have a very specific role that is now a distant memory. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy banshees, but in a competitive game they are going to sit pretty on my shelf.

Not all armies are equally CP dependent though. Orks need CP so need to farm it. Without it we simply don't compete at any level.

My experience is that the newer the army the more CP dependent it will get. Personally I hope they go to a flat CP structure in the next iteration of the game. Maybe take some pointers from AoS and KT.

**An Actual Englishman**

Eldarsif wrote:
Nobody is going to take Boyz if they stay at 7ppm, they are already becoming less popular because they simply don't achieve much. A 30 man squad is routinely killed in overwatch. Not a problem for Banshees. Also stacking -2 to hit on Banshees can make them problematic. Not that it's needed, they are a very cheap tar pit. Tar pits win games because they restrict enemy movement and therefore board control.

Wyches can be a tarpit(4+ invuln and FnP, add net for flavor), not Banshees. Banshees used to have a very specific role that is now a distant memory. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy banshees, but in a competitive game they are going to sit pretty on my shelf.

Not all armies are equally CP dependent though. Orks need CP so need to farm it. Without it we simply don't compete at any level.

My experience is that the newer the army the more CP dependent it will get. Personally I hope they go to a flat CP structure in the next iteration of the game. Maybe take some pointers from AoS and KT.

Oof you're not wrong on either statement.

Man I forgot how good Wyches are. Its a shame, banshees should have +1 str really. Maybe lose some other rule or have a points increase or something. They should be useful though.

Good shout/theory on the CP dependence of factions over time too. You might be spot on.

**BrianDavion**

Tetsu0 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Thank you for posting that imateria. I was about to lose it, I wanted to throttle these people saying how it's so easy to convert the intercessor death company unit.

Like how many units have we lost that were so easy to kitbash. And why is it that space marines and guard get this exception.

proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...

but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"

**VladimirHerzog**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Nobody is going to take Boyz if they stay at 7ppm, they are already becoming less popular because they simply don't achieve much. A 30 man squad is routinely killed in overwatch. Not a problem for Banshees. Also stacking -2 to hit on Banshees can make them problematic. Not that it's needed, they are a very cheap tar pit. Tar pits win games because they restrict enemy movement and therefore board control.

Wyches can be a tarpit(4+ invuln and FnP, add net for flavor), not Banshees. Banshees used to have a very specific role that is now a distant memory. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy banshees, but in a competitive game they are going to sit pretty on my shelf.

Not all armies are equally CP dependent though. Orks need CP so need to farm it. Without it we simply don't compete at any level.

My experience is that the newer the army the more CP dependent it will get. Personally I hope they go to a flat CP structure in the next iteration of the game. Maybe take some pointers from AoS and KT.

Oof you're not wrong on either statement.

Man I forgot how good Wyches are. Its a shame, banshees should have +1 str really. Maybe lose some other rule or have a points increase or something. They should be useful though.

Good shout/theory on the CP dependence of factions over time too. You might be spot on.

yet wyches are only getting worse and worse since they die like flies to anything that can overwatch them. Also, their invulnerable save goes back to a 6+ against pistols..

**Imateria**

BrianDavion wrote:
Tetsu0 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Galas wrote:
I'm really surprissed Death Company intercessors are a unit and not an stratagem update.

Other case of the absolutely random and inconsistent No-Models But-Sometimes-Rules policy.

Well they don't really seem to be anything but an Intercessor box with the Blood Angel upgrade sprue and painted black instead of red.

And yet Kabalite Trueborn are just Kabalites with extra special weapons, but have been removed. Only Marines seem to get the exceptions (somethign that has been pointed out several times by a lot of people over the last couple of years).

Thank you for posting that imateria. I was about to lose it, I wanted to throttle these people saying how it's so easy to convert the intercessor death company unit.

Like how many units have we lost that were so easy to kitbash. And why is it that space marines and guard get this exception.

proably because GW's started to realize adopting a hard core "no model no rules" mentality even in cases where the model set is the same thing is stupid and pisses players off and that these are recent developments? makes a lot more sense then GW deliberatly screwing any faction that's not wearing power armor yeah...

but hey let's keep up the childish "xenos persecution complex"

By the same token there's nothing stopping GW from reversing that silly decision and letting units like Trueborn be used and get points adjustments or other updates as needed, they've certainly had plenty of opportunity to do so, not least the first PA book or this CA. But no, they're all being sent to "Legends" whilst Marines are getting new units based on the same principles that are seing similar units being stamped out of other books.

You are of course entitled to keep your head firmly buried in the sand and pretend that this is all fine and that none Marine players are just making things up for the sake of it.