Just gonna point out that when people refer to scaling, they don't mean the overall size of the model but the difference in sized between heads/hands etc. Infinity and 40k have the same size of models, but they don't fit together visually because of the heroic scale 40k uses
Yeah lets talk about just HOW OLD eldar are for a second. Let me yarn you a yarn about how I got into 40k.
I first got into 40k late in middle school, in 8th grade, when two friends of mine wanted to split the brand new fifth ed starter. My dad, in a vain attempt to get me to not spend all my money on this game, gave me his old 3rd ed space wolf army to add to the AOBR starter so I could play gmaes with my friends.
Every unit in that army: Bjorn, a dreadnought, fenrisian wolves, grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, and ragnar, both got a new kit AND were soft-obsoleted by primaris marines.
When the time came to waste my money on the hobby, I looked into the factions, and loved the idea of eldar and the fluff of eldar, but man...the units I liked from Dawn of War were all ancient, expensive, monopose metals, and they looked way jankier than they did in the game. So I went with Necrons. In middle school and early high school i went through a hardcore 'zombie apocalypse' phase, where I imagined I'd save everyone in the zombie apocalypse and have lots of cool guns and all that dumb gak half my country never grew out of apparently.
All the models I owned for that army: Warriors, scarabs, immortals, spyders, wraiths, monoliths, destroyers - have all gotten new kits, 100% of them.
Then after I left for college, when I had all that saved up money from the summers I worked to get myself spending money, welp it was HIGH TIME TO WASTE MORE MONEY ON 40K WASNT IT??? Seeing as I moved away from my old playgroup in which one of my four 40k playing friends played orks, I bought orks! I went with speed freeks since I felt like I could paint the red with yellow squiggles.
Since owning that army, a huge number of new dedicated speed freek kits were released.
Then I grew a beard, started running low on feth it money, and got into a big ol 40k hipster phase where I started and got bored of several small hobby projects, basically all kitbashed. I made some Thousand Sons chaos marines, I played Space Marine and went down a lore wiki rabbit hole about Skitarii so I bought some guardsmen and kitbashed them with 'cron bits to make them Skitarii, then later when I went down another wikihole I reclassified them as a Genestealer cult and added the minis from Space Hulk that I already owned to them.
Since owning those, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, and Skitarii have all been released as fully fleshed out official model ranges.
after THAT GW finally released an eldar race that wasn't dark eldar (which I used to think playing would...make me gay, or something? I was embarrassed about them, I was like a freshman in college, sue me.) and which wasn't janky ancient cone hats: Harlequins! I know, the spiky elves I was worried were gay, so I bought the sparkly unicorn clowns in spandex. *shrug*.
I graduated college, got a job, met a girlfriend, bought a car, got engaged, moved three times, got married, bought a house, lived through covid, planned for my first kid...
And the eldar miniatures I looked at in disappointment IN EIGHTH FREAKING GRADE are still the EXACT SAME eldar miniatures I look at now.
We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
drbored wrote: We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
I wouldn't say impressive, more along the lines of insulting....
drbored wrote: We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
AoS and 40k might aswell be entirely different companies.
Those making the decision what to make for AoS are clearly not the same people who make that choice for 40k and all evidence points to the 2 systems barely, if ever, communicating with eachother.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As an AoS player I hope it stays that way. Which says something on it's own I think.
Anyways maybe a different thread for 3d printing discussion?
Well kinda. It's pretty relevant to the motivating concern of this discussion: SM releases are over the top, many cool armies just aren't getting anywhere like near enough releases, and all the while technology is eroding the assumptions that GW's business model is predicated on. 3D printing's flourishing in the hobby is an indictment of GW's pricing and neglect, as much as a reflection of new tech.
I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No one was complaining about AoS getting attention though?
NinthMusketeer wrote: As an AoS player I hope it stays that way. Which says something on it's own I think.
Anyways maybe a different thread for 3d printing discussion?
Well kinda. It's pretty relevant to the motivating concern of this discussion: SM releases are over the top, many cool armies just aren't getting anywhere like near enough releases, and all the while technology is eroding the assumptions that GW's business model is predicated on. 3D printing's flourishing in the hobby is an indictment of GW's pricing and neglect, as much as a reflection of new tech.
The reality is that 3d printing is not changing things in the near future. Aside from the price of the printer itself, people rarely mention that the dam things are about as reliable as regular printers. Stuff goes wrong, things need to be fixed, prints need to be redone, and it takes a ton of time just to actually print. While it is cheaper in the end, the reality is that much of that price difference is being replaced with time and labor. Many people have that right now due to the pandemic, but as we work our way out of it that will become a more relevant factor. And the results are still not as high of quality as modern GW plastic kits.
Put simply, if 3d printing really was *that* great, everyone would be doing it.
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
oh god, some artist drew an elf that isn't exactly the same as elves were depicted in lord of the rings, the horror, how dare they do something besides elf with sword, elf with bow and elf on horse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
...Except they weren't. A cow-giant miniature was released and added to high elves, a unit of elves riding things others have described as kangaroos (i'll use your language to avoid offending the sensibilities of people who want me to use specific terms here) was added.
You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
It is ok for some people to like a thing and others to not like a thing.
When it comes to Lumineth, I feel GW leaned too hard on the 'these guys are successors to High Elves' in their initial previews. It gave the impression that they are supposed to be HElves 2.0, which understandably has left many disappointed and even upset when Lumineth have turned out not to be. They are the spiritual successors to HElves, but they are still their own army with their own identity that only has overlap in its core units and certain aesthetic elements. They are not High Elves any more than Exodites are Craftworlders.
Bringing that around to Eldar; a Craftworld revamp WOULD be the same army. There would not be a complete change in setting, the army would not be built from scratch around similar but ultimately different themes. New units would still need to fit in along many existing ones. I think people fearing a Craftworld update looking like Lumineth can (mostly) lay their concerns to rest on that.
the_scotsman wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the idea that eldar players want GW to play it safe, you know, give them what they're used to: Elves in space wearing cone hats cosplaying in power ranger armor themed around various animals, mythological monsters, and abstract conceptions of death. "Don't get crazy GW, we just want an updated plastic kit for our predator-inspired space elf with a chainsaw sword and mechadreadlocks!"
I know I'd prefer that to having the minis replaced by cow-monsters.
...Except they weren't. A cow-giant miniature was released and added to high elves, a unit of elves riding things others have described as kangaroos (i'll use your language to avoid offending the sensibilities of people who want me to use specific terms here) was added.
You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
White lions, seaguard, eagles, griffins, dragon lords, dragon mages, dragon princes, chariots, eagle chariots, shadow warriors... I'm sure I'm missing a few. Someone wanting to make a High Elf army out of Lumineth is missing most of the roster.
Bringing that around to Eldar; a Craftworld revamp WOULD be the same army. There would not be a complete change in setting, the army would not be built from scratch around similar but ultimately different themes. New units would still need to fit in along many existing ones. I think people fearing a Craftworld update looking like Lumineth can (mostly) lay their concerns to rest on that.
Well, unfortunately not.
Most want their army supported, not forgotten, deleted, or utterly changed.
GW has flirted with all of those except supported. And haven't done anything to assuage fears they themselves started with the whole Ynnari thing. What does it mean that one of the major craftworlds is broken (or whatever)?
That its 'coincidentally' the signature Aspect Warrior craftworld doesn't help any. Its a spectre laying heavily over the entire faction, along with the decades old abandonment of the signature fighting forces of the faction. People are perfectly rational in thinking that a big hammer might come down on the other 'classic ' 40k faction
That dark eldar are coming out with bupkis doesn't help matters at all.
That high elf players got played with a bait and switch in AoS doesn't help either. Those sure were great spearmen and riders. Ooops. Sorry about that rug, hope you weren't standing on it.
the_scotsman wrote: ...You want the old high elf stuff but rendered in higher definition? We've got elf with spear, we've got elf with sword, we've got elf with bow, we've got elf on horse, we've got bolt thrower. You don't have to use the new kickass monkey king inspired bow guy, you can have Elf With Staff, also new and shiny, or Elf With Banner! You're not complaining about things being replaced by new things you're forced to use, you're complaining that anyone else gets to have something that has a new idea at all.
No, I'm complaining that they did the giant cow monster instead of doing any of the "Aspect Warrior"-esque units from the old days, or dragons/phoenixes, or a small dragon/griffon heavy cavalry unit, or anything with the Skycutter concept. I'm complaining that the dragon/bird animal motifs have been entirely replaced with cow-motifs. I'd love to have had new stuff that wasn't a silly-looking giant cow monster.
Yeah lets talk about just HOW OLD eldar are for a second. Let me yarn you a yarn about how I got into 40k.
I first got into 40k late in middle school, in 8th grade, when two friends of mine wanted to split the brand new fifth ed starter. My dad, in a vain attempt to get me to not spend all my money on this game, gave me his old 3rd ed space wolf army to add to the AOBR starter so I could play gmaes with my friends.
Every unit in that army: Bjorn, a dreadnought, fenrisian wolves, grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, and ragnar, both got a new kit AND were soft-obsoleted by primaris marines.
When the time came to waste my money on the hobby, I looked into the factions, and loved the idea of eldar and the fluff of eldar, but man...the units I liked from Dawn of War were all ancient, expensive, monopose metals, and they looked way jankier than they did in the game. So I went with Necrons. In middle school and early high school i went through a hardcore 'zombie apocalypse' phase, where I imagined I'd save everyone in the zombie apocalypse and have lots of cool guns and all that dumb gak half my country never grew out of apparently.
All the models I owned for that army: Warriors, scarabs, immortals, spyders, wraiths, monoliths, destroyers - have all gotten new kits, 100% of them.
Then after I left for college, when I had all that saved up money from the summers I worked to get myself spending money, welp it was HIGH TIME TO WASTE MORE MONEY ON 40K WASNT IT??? Seeing as I moved away from my old playgroup in which one of my four 40k playing friends played orks, I bought orks! I went with speed freeks since I felt like I could paint the red with yellow squiggles.
Since owning that army, a huge number of new dedicated speed freek kits were released.
Then I grew a beard, started running low on feth it money, and got into a big ol 40k hipster phase where I started and got bored of several small hobby projects, basically all kitbashed. I made some Thousand Sons chaos marines, I played Space Marine and went down a lore wiki rabbit hole about Skitarii so I bought some guardsmen and kitbashed them with 'cron bits to make them Skitarii, then later when I went down another wikihole I reclassified them as a Genestealer cult and added the minis from Space Hulk that I already owned to them.
Since owning those, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, and Skitarii have all been released as fully fleshed out official model ranges.
after THAT GW finally released an eldar race that wasn't dark eldar (which I used to think playing would...make me gay, or something? I was embarrassed about them, I was like a freshman in college, sue me.) and which wasn't janky ancient cone hats: Harlequins! I know, the spiky elves I was worried were gay, so I bought the sparkly unicorn clowns in spandex. *shrug*.
I graduated college, got a job, met a girlfriend, bought a car, got engaged, moved three times, got married, bought a house, lived through covid, planned for my first kid...
And the eldar miniatures I looked at in disappointment IN EIGHTH FREAKING GRADE are still the EXACT SAME eldar miniatures I look at now.
A: Fun post.
B: Some of the Eldar models are the same as when I started. . . and I started in 2nd ed.
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Agreed. Just update the models to be less 2 dimensional, try to do a better job at it than the first plastic farseer and the first spiritseer and I would be mostly happy. So, like the new Banshees, but with a saner price (I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Then they'll get nothing, because clearly they're happy with what they have, if they don't want anything changed.
Kanluwen wrote: I'll always find it funny how much of the 40k crowd that constantly complains about how AoS is getting all this attention and massive range of releases...also complains that they just want things to stay the same.
You know why AoS is getting these big releases for things like Lumineth? Because they're building a world from scratch.
No, they're rebuilding a world with a better illusion of IP protection, and scrambling to catch up to decades of background material that was randomly abandoned.
Eldar players want some attention to their model range without getting their ship sunk for several years, or to find the new versions of their old models are suddenly infested with cows and foxes.
Then they'll get nothing, because clearly they're happy with what they have, if they don't want anything changed.
That's... just bizarre.
'You can't want anything if you don't want a radical redesign or deletion!' makes no logical sense.
Go to your boss and tell him you want a raise. I very much doubt his response will be 'you're fired or tend my cattle herd, but those are your only options.'
Now, to be fair I will say that some of the Eldar "replacements" over the years I've actually felt to be a step backwards, aesthetically. The 3rd-4th? edition Scorpions were not great models (and were rather quickly replaced. But for me, the Warp Spiders still look as sweet as they did when I was in high school. Imo may of the Eldar kits just looked so damn good that they really didn't need replacing. In many cases I'd settle for "a little cleaner" and "in plastic".
Agreed. Just update the models to be less 2 dimensional, try to do a better job at it than the first plastic farseer and the first spiritseer and I would be mostly happy. So, like the new Banshees, but with a saner price (I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).
While these aren't cheap models either, Eradicators aren't 1€ / point and aren't models I already have.
And it's not even a complaint, if they continue to price them like this I'll just pass my turn as I do with a lot of their products. I already have pewter squads and don't really need anything. It doesn't really matter to me, it's just sad for anyone newer to the range.
That dark eldar are coming out with bupkis doesn't help matters at all.
I disagree; the fact that the DE a) didn't change aesthetically and b) seem to have lost no units and c) gained 6 virtual units (ie. units without separate sheets- 3 Master HQ and 3 Elite Troops) bodes very, very well for CWE, as does the fact that JZ and the Banshees were not aesthetically changed. The DE had more reasons to worry than the CWE did, because our Codex has been bleeding HQ's and options which the CWE dex has not.
Note: I'm not saying the concern isn't warranted, nor am I saying that GW did everything right- they haven't. I'm just advising you to recognize that so far, what we've seen from the DE dex appears reassuring.
That high elf players got played with a bait and switch in AoS doesn't help either. Those sure were great spearmen and riders. Ooops. Sorry about that rug, hope you weren't standing on it.
Okay, sometimes I too look for the connections between what's going on in AoS and what will happen with 40k. But unless you're playing Daemons, or converting Cursed City models to Ordo Hereticus Acolytes, basically the only truly useful connection to be made is anticipating when the release schedule will be light for one game based on how heavy it is for another (ie. because Cursed City happened, we're a year to 18 months away from 40kWHQ 2).
That dark eldar are coming out with bupkis doesn't help matters at all.
I disagree; the fact that the DE a) didn't change aesthetically and b) seem to have lost no units and c) gained 6 virtual units (ie. units without separate sheets- 3 Master HQ and 3 Elite Troops) bodes very, very well for CWE, as does the fact that JZ and the Banshees were not aesthetically changed. The DE had more reasons to worry than the CWE did, because our Codex has been bleeding HQ's and options which the CWE dex has not.
Note: I'm not saying the concern isn't warranted, nor am I saying that GW did everything right- they haven't. I'm just advising you to recognize that so far, what we've seen from the DE dex appears reassuring.
I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing the same things. I'm seeing the pinnacle of neglect, short of just not producing a 9th edition codex.
The pile of finecast stays as is. There is NOTHING reassuring about that. Its the biggest complaint (at least mine) and its not touched. I have no idea why in the world that would be 'reassuring' for Craftworlds.
Bunch of shooting and non-CC units get +1 A and... not much else.
'Virtual units' were a bad sign when they did them first time around, but at least they were accompanied by a pile of actually new models and even some new unit concepts elsewhere in the codex. Having them without the basic work being done? Not a fan. I know others are, but I've no obligation to agree.
DE looked like they drew the short straw and got checked off the list.
That high elf players got played with a bait and switch in AoS doesn't help either. Those sure were great spearmen and riders. Ooops. Sorry about that rug, hope you weren't standing on it.
Okay, sometimes I too look for the connections between what's going on in AoS and what will happen with 40k. But unless you're playing Daemons, or converting Cursed City models to Ordo Hereticus Acolytes, basically the only truly useful connection to be made is anticipating when the release schedule will be light for one game based on how heavy it is for another (ie. because Cursed City happened, we're a year to 18 months away from 40kWHQ 2).
Fixed to hit rolls
Return to armor piercing
Mortal Wounds Morale = test for extra models to vanish from existence
Tzaangors
Mutalith Vortex beast
I know GW doesn't put the names of developers on books anymore, but if you really believe that the GW staff are now rigidly segregated, don't interact, talk or switch systems on a regular basis for different projects, I don't know what to tell you.
All I'm saying is that the dex is separate and the models are two separate issues. I agree, the faction's range has been neglected and needs work. But the dex effectively added 6 units and improved the army.
Dex =/= models
Models =/= dex
I mean, I guess I'm the annoying one here, because my point is entirely based on semantics.
I want plastic Mandrakes, CotA and Grots too. Very much. And I am a bit disappointed that we didn't get them with the dex.
But when I saw Trueborn and Blood Brides; when I read about the Master HQ's; when I saw the changes to Raiding Force and the army wide upgrades, well- I breathed a sigh of relief. The dex is fine!
The fact the range is still full of finecast is a separate issue, unconnected to whether or not the dex is good.
Wanna bash fine cast? I'll join you: let me start with the sslyth.... Damn I hate that model, and GW is evil for not replacing it.
That still has zero to do with dex, which actually looks pretty good. That's all I'm sayin.
All I'm saying is that the dex is separate and the models are two separate issues. I agree, the faction's range has been neglected and needs work. But the dex effectively added 6 units and improved the army.
Dex =/= models
Models =/= dex
I mean, I guess I'm the annoying one here, because my point is entirely based on semantics.
Ah. I don't think that was semantics- I just didn't get that at all from your post, considering your point a) was about a lack of aesthetic change, there wasn't any reason to assume you were separating models out as something else and not talking about them when you're bringing up aesthetics. And then you went on and brought up up the banshee models and their lack of change.
But I still don't agree. The lack of models is still a huge issue. The number one issue, in fact. And of course, with modern GW... I doubt I'll even see these rules in play on the table before they're replaced by the 10th edition DE codex. So the state of the temporary rules is far less my concern than the lack of models.
And even ignoring that, the rules we've seen so far _aren't_ reassuring to me. They look phoned and wildly flailing to solve problems the army doesn't have, while not solving problems it does have. Woo, +1 A warriors! Woo, worse heavy splinter bolters! Woo, no new options for characters, just required paper upgrades (traits, relics, etc) to make a vaguely passable assassin for a single round. Because dark gods know the actual special character duelist is fairly pants at her actual job. Just call 'Master' Archon Bob in to wave that Djin about instead.
When one of my armies goes from less options to more options I see that as an improvement, but that's just me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: I just didn't get that at all from your post, considering your point a) was about a lack of aesthetic change, there wasn't any reason to assume you were separating models out as something else and not talking about them when you're bringing up aesthetics.
That dark eldar are coming out with bupkis doesn't help matters at all.
I disagree; the fact that the DE a) didn't change aesthetically and b) seem to have lost no units and c) gained 6 virtual units (ie. units without separate sheets- 3 Master HQ and 3 Elite Troops) bodes very, very well for CWE, as does the fact that JZ and the Banshees were not aesthetically changed. The DE had more reasons to worry than the CWE did, because our Codex has been bleeding HQ's and options which the CWE dex has not.
Note: I'm not saying the concern isn't warranted, nor am I saying that GW did everything right- they haven't. I'm just advising you to recognize that so far, what we've seen from the DE dex appears reassuring.
Yep. Those words are there. I didn't suggest he didn't say them- I literally meant point a), rather than b) or c)
I disagree; the fact that the DEa) didn't change aesthetically and b) seem to have lost no units and c) gained 6 virtual units (ie. units without separate sheets- 3 Master HQ and 3 Elite Troops) bodes very, very well for CWE, as does the fact that JZ and the Banshees were not aesthetically changed. The DE had more reasons to worry than the CWE did, because our Codex has been bleeding HQ's and options which the CWE dex has not.
But these words also there. It seems weird to read that as just about the codex and not about the models when he's specifically calling out modelsPoint a) and banshees are about models, Points b) and c) are about the codex. I didn't see him as taking models and codex as separate issues because he was talking about both, all mixed up in the same paragraph.
----
When one of my armies goes from less options to more options I see that as an improvement, but that's just me.
I haven't seen 'more options' from the previews. Sure there will be the usual relic, trait and strat shuffle (and subfaction bonuses changed for good or ill), but... whatever.
Paying for upgrades (via points or CPs) is just another form of the normal shuffle- it isn't any additional depth.
"virtual units" are pretty lackluster. We've seen them in only a small handful of places. They're effectively units that don't have models, you're expected to just use the same model and call it something different on the table. They generate no hype and aren't a sign of things being in a good position. On the contrary, I'd say it's a bad thing to see 'filler' datasheets like these.
If the Master Archon (and other filler characters and elites) had come with models, or a new bits pack or something, THAT would have been something exciting.
But no, it's only Space Marines that actually gets models for unknown characters, while Drukhari still don't have a model for Vect or half the other characters they introduced and then axed from the codex...
Paying for upgrades (via points or CPs) is just another form of the normal shuffle- it isn't any additional depth.
It literally is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: We've seen them in only a small handful of places.
Because there have only been a small handful of 9th edition codex, which all have such options. Safe to say it will be standard at this point.
They're effectively units that don't have models, you're expected to just use the same model and call it something different on the table.
I agree; that is literally what they are. Not having character choices which work this way is actually a quite recent development, if it can really be said to have gone away at all. Command traits and relics also fit that description.
They generate no hype
Objectively false even within the context of this discussion, let alone the community.
and aren't a sign of things being in a good position.
By which definition things have not been in a good position, ever, in any edition.
On the contrary, I'd say it's a bad thing to see 'filler' datasheets like these.
Articulate to me exactly how a person with these options would be worse off than a person without them.
A Filler Datasheet is, to me, similar to a 'quick and easy cash grab'. Its extra rules in a codex, which many might see as a good thing, but I tend to look at the company from a model standpoint, not a book standpoint.
Lately, it seems like GW is more interested in selling us books than selling us models for the factions that need them.
Now, to a degree, filler datasheets can be a great thing for modelers and converters, but with the trend of many models going mono-pose, with fewer options in the boxes, it's becoming more difficult for the lay-person or newbie to create a converted model for many factions.
Leveling the pros and cons, I still see it as a bad thing, a symptom of the direction that GW is pushing, to sell us more paper than more plastic.
I'd rather see more plastic, and so that's why I view it that way. Difference in opinion is just that.
How does the addition of those dataslates displace model development? There was never a point where resources could have been devoted to DEldar models but they decided to devote those resources to making extra dataslates instead. It is marines who are sucking up those resources. Marines who also got the same manner of upgrade options despite ludicrous amounts of new model support. Again, all the 9th edition codex have that. How is it bad? How are we worse off for those being there?
Upgrade unit options are not the problem here, nor even a symptom.
NinthMusketeer wrote: How does the addition of those dataslates displace model development? There was never a point where resources could have been devoted to DEldar models but they decided to devote those resources to making extra dataslates instead. It is marines who are sucking up those resources. Marines who also got the same manner of upgrade options despite ludicrous amounts of new model support. Again, all the 9th edition codex have that. How is it bad? How are we worse off for those being there?
Upgrade unit options are not the problem here, nor even a symptom.
I agree with you on the fact of resources (and especially the part about space marines sucking up all those resources, hence why I started this thread in the first place, lol)
I personally just don't think that filler datasheets are a good thing. I don't know that we're worse off, all I can say is that I have a gut feeling that the path it leads to is not a great one for the 40k game. Like I said, that's just my opinion. If I had to extrapolate on it, I could, but it'd be a lot of 'i think' and 'i feel', with not a lot of hard evidence, tbh.
I think GW's plan was to give the edition's starter armies large releases up front, then lean down on to focus on blitzing dexes for the first year.
During this first year of Codex releases, they also want to train us for their new way of sustaining development without resetting editions. Which is the Quaterly (or Semi Annually) campaign cycle.
Once Codexes stop coming, these campaign cycles can drive the model release schedule in perpetuity. It goes like this:
Every year is a campaign with four seasons; each season, you get a campaign book focusing on four factions, a WD Flashpoint series, a Crusade Mission Pack, a VS. box with one new unit for each faction. Since a campaign is a full year, we'll all be playing along with the Tale of Four Warlords, who wil start Crusades every year, and we'll be encouraged to match their pace of 25 PL every two months as a self motivator, fighting in all of the Theatres of war that they fight in with Crusades of our own.
One of the VS boxes released in a year will contain a faction refresh with a large release- probably Q1 in order to capitalize on new years resolution/ tale of four gamers/ hobby bongo cards etc.
The cycles that don't include the faction refresh army will feature a second wave for an army instead- likely one of the two armies featured in the box in order to synergize with the single model locked behind the vs. box for the cycle.
Every year, the previous campaign's Armies of Renown are retired so that the next campaign cycle can create new ones, and the system repeats.
Now should GW have waited til all the dexes were out to introduce us to the perpetual motion machine? Maybe. But I think they want to test their recipe so that they nail it in the first year without Codex releases, because if it doesn't perform well as a driver of sales, they'll want to tweak it or abandon it.
I think that's exactly what happened in eighth; they gave us Vigilus during the Codex release to test proof concept. It worked well enough that they wanted to try it again with a shorter release cycle to see just how far it would go. On the second round, they aimed way too high, and people did not like it as much as they thought.
In fact, people disliked it enough that GW thought that people might need a new edition as a palate cleanser, and they cooked up Crusade as an integrated ruleset to increase the odds of the campaign cycle concept landing harder the next time around.
I think the quarterly campaign cycle would be really good for the game. I may not have it exactly right- like I said, semi annual cycle vs quarterly cycle; campaign length could also change independently of cycle length.
It will appear inconsistent until they've perfected it, at which point it'll be like clockwork.
During this first year of Codex releases, they also want to train us for their new way of sustaining development without resetting editions. Which is the Quaterly (or Semi Annually) campaign cycle.
Nope. Just... nope. This is the same line of thinking that allowed people to convince themselves that 8th was going to be some sort of mythical Living Ruleset and we wouldn't see another edition for a long while.
Instead they did the same thing as 7th, but turned up the speed for 8th. This is the same thing all over again. It just seems slower because of the real world impacting on releases.
This is just more churn and burn, an extra layer of income to guzzle down while everything else proceeds as normal. Codexes aren't going to stop, and editions won't either.
PenitentJake wrote: I think GW's plan was to give the edition's starter armies large releases up front, then lean down on to focus on blitzing dexes for the first year.
During this first year of Codex releases, they also want to train us for their new way of sustaining development without resetting editions. Which is the Quaterly (or Semi Annually) campaign cycle.
Once Codexes stop coming, these campaign cycles can drive the model release schedule in perpetuity. It goes like this:
Every year is a campaign with four seasons; each season, you get a campaign book focusing on four factions, a WD Flashpoint series, a Crusade Mission Pack, a VS. box with one new unit for each faction. Since a campaign is a full year, we'll all be playing along with the Tale of Four Warlords, who wil start Crusades every year, and we'll be encouraged to match their pace of 25 PL every two months as a self motivator, fighting in all of the Theatres of war that they fight in with Crusades of our own.
One of the VS boxes released in a year will contain a faction refresh with a large release- probably Q1 in order to capitalize on new years resolution/ tale of four gamers/ hobby bongo cards etc.
The cycles that don't include the faction refresh army will feature a second wave for an army instead- likely one of the two armies featured in the box in order to synergize with the single model locked behind the vs. box for the cycle.
Every year, the previous campaign's Armies of Renown are retired so that the next campaign cycle can create new ones, and the system repeats.
Now should GW have waited til all the dexes were out to introduce us to the perpetual motion machine? Maybe. But I think they want to test their recipe so that they nail it in the first year without Codex releases, because if it doesn't perform well as a driver of sales, they'll want to tweak it or abandon it.
I think that's exactly what happened in eighth; they gave us Vigilus during the Codex release to test proof concept. It worked well enough that they wanted to try it again with a shorter release cycle to see just how far it would go. On the second round, they aimed way too high, and people did not like it as much as they thought.
In fact, people disliked it enough that GW thought that people might need a new edition as a palate cleanser, and they cooked up Crusade as an integrated ruleset to increase the odds of the campaign cycle concept landing harder the next time around.
I think the quarterly campaign cycle would be really good for the game. I may not have it exactly right- like I said, semi annual cycle vs quarterly cycle; campaign length could also change independently of cycle length.
It will appear inconsistent until they've perfected it, at which point it'll be like clockwork.
waefre_1 wrote: I'd love to believe that GW are that competent, but that sounds a bit more like head-canon.
Lol yeah.
All that GW have ACTUALLY done is figure out that selling books is a nice boost to profit, so churning out 16+ codexes in an edition (plus campaign books and other things) nets them plenty more profit than... not doing that.
Meanwhile, they can pass it off as trying to keep all the armies up to date with the new edition, even if codexes released at the end of one edition are rapidly invalidated or replaced at the start of the new one (which means some factions may buy two codexes within the span of 12 months, like space marines and potentially Admech coming soon).
Even if a player only buys books that pertain to their single army, over the span of 2 editions they might get 3-4 book purchases out of that single player, between two codexes and two campaign books, not even counting the two core rulebooks (one for each edition) and a 'Chapter Approved' every year, and maybe even a cheeky White Dwarf that might have new rules for their faction.
There's nothing grand about this plan. Nothing special. No 'living ruleset' or anything like that. They'll pump out books as quick as they can because people keep buying them for the one or two lines of rules that apply to their faction that give them an extra 'oomph', or for the collectors that can't seem to help themselves and must have all the books on their overburdened shelves.
THIS. This has been my past...well...year, since 9th came out. When multiple SM Codexes come out in a row and SM releases sneak out with every other release...welp, it burned me out. I've sold myself out of 40k. Maybe once financial situations change RL I'll return or maybe when CSM get updated to be on par but for now I'm more focused on AoS due to a friend getting heavily into it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: GW has not shown a propensity to stick to the same release paradigm for long enough to even test that theory, I think.
Yeah. They change horses mid-race so often that I'll be suitably impressed if every faction gets a Codex before they unceremoniously dump Crusade next edition.
drbored wrote: A Filler Datasheet is, to me, similar to a 'quick and easy cash grab'. Its extra rules in a codex, which many might see as a good thing, but I tend to look at the company from a model standpoint, not a book standpoint.
I'm not sure I'd agree, though I personally dislike the 'Master' datasheets for a different reason.
They make the non-Master versions of HQs completely pointless.
Could they not have given DE something more like the invisible wargear Cryptek's got or else something like Pivotal Roles?
This just feels like the illusion of choice rather than actual choice.
dan2026 wrote: I am sick of seeing Space Marines get 30 new releases every edition, while armies that really need releases get a model or two.
It just sucks.
Like the new Dark Eldar codex coming out, they are getting one model. One.
They couldn’t even get a box of Grotesques or Mandrakes.
While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
And in many cases, a space marine model that nobody really wanted either.
It is beyond the meme at this point. It was actually SUPER REFRESHING to not see a SINGLE loyalist space marine in the whole of the reveals today. There were some chaos marines in stained glass, but those don't count.
So a lot of doubt about about campaign driven perma-edition. And truth be told, though I'm the one who put it out there, I have doubts myself.
I've had doubts since the late 90's the we'd ever see GSC again.
I've had doubts since the early 2k's that we were ever getting plastic sisters.
Custodes weren't even on my radar.
Didn't think we'd get Trueborn or Blood Brides either.
Remember how certain everyone was that DE transport capacity wasn't going up?
Had almost forgotten that Ambulls and Zoats existed.
Never expected a new plastic Inquisitor... Or Rogue traders.
Wasn't sure the Redemption would ever come back either.
How many of you had similar thoughts?
In the past five years, a lot of my expectations have been exceeded. Admittedly, an ever-edition would be the biggest possible change GW could make to their established business practices.
But the UK and other European countries are getting subscriptions, which also cater to a quarterly growth cycle. Look at the success of the small format AoS games and their seasonal approach.
I could certainly be wrong; it would be the biggest change they could make. Would sure shut up a lot of haters though, wouldn't it?
dan2026 wrote: I am sick of seeing Space Marines get 30 new releases every edition, while armies that really need releases get a model or two.
It just sucks.
Like the new Dark Eldar codex coming out, they are getting one model. One.
They couldn’t even get a box of Grotesques or Mandrakes.
While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
And in many cases, a space marine model that nobody really wanted either.
It is beyond the meme at this point. It was actually SUPER REFRESHING to not see a SINGLE loyalist space marine in the whole of the reveals today. There were some chaos marines in stained glass, but those don't count.
God yes. Seeing all the hints of the new Ork stuff was so refreshing.
Its not the Eldar I wanted but its still super cool to see.
Gives me a glimmer of hope. Just a glimmer though.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I feel like the self fulfilling prophecy of "marine kits sell, so we should make more, eldar kits don't sell so we shouldn't" really comes into play. Particularly because when they have done new eldar kits the prices have just happened to be particularly painful relative to other releases, affecting sales further. That phoenix box could may have had foolish management thinking 'oh people don't like eldar' while missing or undervaluing the effect of how high priced it was vs what you got.
It was more likely some suit who wanted to prove that Eldar kits don't sell. This kind of chicanery happens all the time in the corporate world.
dan2026 wrote: While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of hyperbole strikes again.
Serious question - aside from Ventris, have we actually seen any new SM models/kits previewed this year? I think the Gladiator and Speeders were reviewed last year, weren't they, and I'm know the HI and their Captain were, even if they were only released with the latest Kill Team box.
I'm fully aware that we've seen a number of releases - tied to Dark Angels & Kill Team - but as far as I'm aware the SM pipeline is currently dry when it comes to unreleased, but previewed, models.
drbored wrote: We can only hope that GW has saved up enough 'space marine' money that they can actually release some other factions over the rest of this year and the next.
It's actually kind of impressive that they can give Lumineth Realm Lords, a brand new model range, TWO MASSIVE WAVES of miniatures, but can't be bothered to update Eldar.
At this point, it's conscious. They don't want to give too much attention to Eldar because they're another good-guy army, and elves are popular, and they're worried it'll take attention away from Astartes.
dan2026 wrote: While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of hyperbole strikes again.
Serious question - aside from Ventris, have we actually seen any new SM models/kits previewed this year? I think the Gladiator and Speeders were reviewed last year, weren't they, and I'm know the HI and their Captain were, even if they were only released with the latest Kill Team box.
I'm fully aware that we've seen a number of releases - tied to Dark Angels & Kill Team - but as far as I'm aware the SM pipeline is currently dry when it comes to unreleased, but previewed, models.
Oh, that makes me feel better. There aren't any new marines previewed this year yet, how nice. /s
dan2026 wrote: While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of hyperbole strikes again.
Serious question - aside from Ventris, have we actually seen any new SM models/kits previewed this year? I think the Gladiator and Speeders were reviewed last year, weren't they, and I'm know the HI and their Captain were, even if they were only released with the latest Kill Team box.
I'm fully aware that we've seen a number of releases - tied to Dark Angels & Kill Team - but as far as I'm aware the SM pipeline is currently dry when it comes to unreleased, but previewed, models.
Oh, that makes me feel better. There aren't any new marines previewed this year yet, how nice. /s
Well, in terms of further releases in 2021, it indicates a period of respite - how long a period, I wouldn't want to speculate, but it's a sign that we've got at least a few months without more SM releases.
As opposed to seeing "yet another fancy Space Marine model" every week, like the person I quoted was claiming.
dan2026 wrote: While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of hyperbole strikes again.
Serious question - aside from Ventris, have we actually seen any new SM models/kits previewed this year? I think the Gladiator and Speeders were reviewed last year, weren't they, and I'm know the HI and their Captain were, even if they were only released with the latest Kill Team box.
I'm fully aware that we've seen a number of releases - tied to Dark Angels & Kill Team - but as far as I'm aware the SM pipeline is currently dry when it comes to unreleased, but previewed, models.
It isn't really hyperbole when this edition Space Marines have already had over 20 separate releases in 9th edition alone.
If we can now focus on ranges such as Orks and Eldar then fair enough.
I'm happy for Orks, but lord to Eldar need it.
Lord Damocles wrote: Does the Imperium exclusive Primaris captain not count as a preview?
When they don't sell that to most of the world, no. No, it does not.
I still count it as a reason to be exasperated. It's just another space marine model, taking up resources, even if it's only available to a part of the world. Remember, all of these models are manufactured in one place. It's not like each country has it's own GW factory.
dan2026 wrote: While every week we see yet another fancy Space Marine model nobody really needed.
Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of hyperbole strikes again.
Serious question - aside from Ventris, have we actually seen any new SM models/kits previewed this year? I think the Gladiator and Speeders were reviewed last year, weren't they, and I'm know the HI and their Captain were, even if they were only released with the latest Kill Team box.
I'm fully aware that we've seen a number of releases - tied to Dark Angels & Kill Team - but as far as I'm aware the SM pipeline is currently dry when it comes to unreleased, but previewed, models.
It isn't really hyperbole when this edition Space Marines have already had over 20 separate releases in 9th edition alone.
If we can now focus on ranges such as Orks and Eldar then fair enough.
I'm happy for Orks, but lord to Eldar need it.
I'm as willing to knock on marines as the next guy, but they aren't getting a release every week. Not even close to that bad.
I have a suspicion that GW have sat on eldar for a long time to build up a passionate demand for new models so that when they finally revamp them sales will be through to roof.
mrFickle wrote: I have a suspicion that GW have sat on eldar for a long time to build up a passionate demand for new models so that when they finally revamp them sales will be through to roof.
I really hope you are right.
It is odd that we have seen no sign of them in any of the rumour engine pics.
mrFickle wrote: I have a suspicion that GW have sat on eldar for a long time to build up a passionate demand for new models so that when they finally revamp them sales will be through to roof.
seems that no matter what GW releases sales are through the roof.
"What about Xenos?"
"Here is one model and a trailer which foreshadows several new kits that we are going to release for one of the most iconic Xenos army.
"What about Xenos?"
"Um go pre-order the new Dark Eldar codex?"
Least the Orks are getting something.
Actual dialogue from the stream:
"Go preorder the Piety and Pain Box!"
"It's sold out."
"Oh, uh, well, if you couldn't get it, sorry."
Ok now THAT is funny
It was pretty hilarious. That was, what, a half hour into the stream. The box sold out in 3 minutes in europe and in 3 minutes in North America (when those preorders went live a few hours later).
It's hard to know how much of this is demand, how much of it is a supply problem, and how much of it is due to the pandemic. It's probably all three, and then some other issues we're not aware of.
Argive wrote: Also.. Scalping programs are a real pain now now. Just look at the PS5 debacle for example people just take the micky now..
Scalping exists when there's a shortage of things, which is happening in nearly every industry. There's not a ton that can be done. Even limits of 'one per customer' only go so far.
When it comes to GW, printing more of an in-demand item is the best course, if it makes sense for them profit wise. A lot of times, a certain amount is made because any less and you'd lose money and any more and you'd lose money. It may not make sense, but it's how it works with economies of scale.
Thankfully, things like Piety and Pain are simply 'good deals', they're not limited models or anything like that. A little patience goes a long way in retaining a peaceful mind.
I am beginning to believe that the boxes are made in numbers of what they expect to sell based off previous data and I think that they underestimated the desire for this box. Wouldn't be the first box. Looncurse(AoS, Gloomspite and Sylvaneth) had so few boxes that my FLGS only got 1 or so.
Regarding Craftworld redesign I wouldn't put it past GW that they are working on a redesign, but since it takes years to get a line made we won't be seeing any rumor engine reveals until 4 months before release. We should also take into account that if they are redesigning that they will most likely add a heavy alternate "Ynnari" bits into it so they can sell it as an Ynnari force and Craftworld. We've already seen that happen with the Incubi and Howling Banshees and I do believe that was the vanguard of things to come.
Despite the success of the Sisters release, GW are probably still really leery of releasing a Battlebox for 40k with 0 Marines in it, so I imagine they also severely underestimated demand. Plus non-Marine boxes in 40k are about 50/50 in terms of success right now. Forgebane did brilliantly (and may have influenced the Necron reboot) but BotP didn't do well.
When you look at a few of the AOS boxes and how many of them are still on sale it sort of goes to show how much bigger 40k is still.
Bosskelot wrote: Despite the success of the Sisters release, GW are probably still really leery of releasing a Battlebox for 40k with 0 Marines in it, so I imagine they also severely underestimated demand. Plus non-Marine boxes in 40k are about 50/50 in terms of success right now. Forgebane did brilliantly (and may have influenced the Necron reboot) but BotP didn't do well.
When you look at a few of the AOS boxes and how many of them are still on sale it sort of goes to show how much bigger 40k is still.
The problem is that GW doesn't have much awareness of what people want or not.
Boxes that have units that not everyone has sell well and quickly whereas boxes with kits that most everyone has will languish. BotP, Feast of Bones, and Wrath and Rapture all suffered from this. Although I'd add that in case of BotP the price was just through the roof.
TBF it ould just be Covid throwing a wrench into things. They probably couldn't produce all that many even if they wanted to. The approach of 'print a small amount, if there is huge demand we'll do another print run' may actually be their only option.
with GW having their own factory and the make most things in EU now there was enough time to get things done according to demand
Other brands started to change because of the pandemic but because they produce in China it takes 6-12 months until they see results
Most of them also changed the material to something that they can do in house to keep up with demand etc.
So it is more like GW playing it save, rather produce too less and sell out in minutes than producing more and may have somehting left after one week (and as long as they sell everything they don't care who buys it, as long as it is gone within minutes)
kodos wrote: but printing books in Poland is not making nothing in EU
The point is that GW don't have a model factory in the EU/on the continent and THAT is the big stopper for production. That is going back t your earlier comment that GW makes most things in a EU factory when they factually don't
Bosskelot wrote: Despite the success of the Sisters release, GW are probably still really leery of releasing a Battlebox for 40k with 0 Marines in it, so I imagine they also severely underestimated demand. Plus non-Marine boxes in 40k are about 50/50 in terms of success right now. Forgebane did brilliantly (and may have influenced the Necron reboot) but BotP didn't do well.
When you look at a few of the AOS boxes and how many of them are still on sale it sort of goes to show how much bigger 40k is still.
The problem is that GW doesn't have much awareness of what people want or not.
Boxes that have units that not everyone has sell well and quickly whereas boxes with kits that most everyone has will languish. BotP, Feast of Bones, and Wrath and Rapture all suffered from this. Although I'd add that in case of BotP the price was just through the roof.
Well, there is no awareness because there is no 2-way communication between GW and it's customers at all.
kodos wrote: but printing books in Poland is not making nothing in EU
The point is that GW don't have a model factory in the EU/on the continent and THAT is the big stopper for production. That is going back t your earlier comment that GW makes most things in a EU factory when they factually don't
well, since Brexit they are have no EU production any more but doing it in Europe, unless the others that are doing plastic casting in China
hence GW can adjust much faster to any changes on the market were others cannot do that as there is no possibility for a quick reaction or changes
kodos wrote: but printing books in Poland is not making nothing in EU
The point is that GW don't have a model factory in the EU/on the continent and THAT is the big stopper for production. That is going back t your earlier comment that GW makes most things in a EU factory when they factually don't
well, since Brexit they are have no EU production any more but doing it in Europe, unless the others that are doing plastic casting in China
hence GW can adjust much faster to any changes on the market were others cannot do that as there is no possibility for a quick reaction or changes
Producing in UK isn't that much of a boon if your country have some of the most restrictive lockdown rules in the west from what I have understood. Didn't they completely close down for weeks, if not a few months, in a row last year? So even if they don't have to rely on shipping from China they are instead hampered on the production itself. Not to mention the problems with getting raw materials for them and sending products out. The new strain that was found in the UK a few months back messed up logistics even before Brexit happened. Above the normal delays due to the pandemic.
Bosskelot wrote: Despite the success of the Sisters release, GW are probably still really leery of releasing a Battlebox for 40k with 0 Marines in it, so I imagine they also severely underestimated demand. Plus non-Marine boxes in 40k are about 50/50 in terms of success right now. Forgebane did brilliantly (and may have influenced the Necron reboot) but BotP didn't do well.
When you look at a few of the AOS boxes and how many of them are still on sale it sort of goes to show how much bigger 40k is still.
Space Wolves vs GSC (I forget the name) was pretty easy to get a hold of for a long time. Ultramarines vs Eldar seemed to go quicker, but I don't remember it flying off the shelves. Granted, the latter only had new stuff for the GSC other than the Space Wolf HQ model and Wake the Dead had a Lieutenant(!!!) sculpt I think?
I don't think the disparity between 40k and AoS boxes selling out is that great though. Feast of Bones I remember selling out very quickly, but it seemed they quietly did a second run of it because you could find places like Element stocking it about a month later despite previously selling out in ten minutes. Sylvaneth vs Gloomspite sold quick, FEC vs Skaven was gone in a day, Sigmarines vs Nurgle didn't last too long. Aether War was around a few months if you knew where to look but went off the webstore after a couple of weeks. The only real AoS dud seems to have been Shadow & Pain and arguably the Lumineth box (which may've been a case of overproduction since it came shortly after Sisters sold out in seconds).
I'd be curious to see what percentage of this latest box were scalpers though. After the Sisters Army Box went about as quickly, I imagine a decent percentage of sales were them trying to make lightning strike twice. Dark Eldar aren't that popular and whilst the discount on the Sisters stuff is decent if you can hawk the Dark Eldar stuff, a temporarily-limited HQ isn't exactly Indomitus.
Shadow & Pain afaik got hit hard because of the pandemic. My store only got 2 copies. The two before that, aether war and feast of bones, had enough that most sold in short order but a couple hung around for a month or two. Anecdotal, but they did not seem to have issues with starter set production in the year before the pandemic.
kodos wrote: but printing books in Poland is not making nothing in EU
The point is that GW don't have a model factory in the EU/on the continent and THAT is the big stopper for production. That is going back t your earlier comment that GW makes most things in a EU factory when they factually don't
well, since Brexit they are have no EU production any more but doing it in Europe, unless the others that are doing plastic casting in China
hence GW can adjust much faster to any changes on the market were others cannot do that as there is no possibility for a quick reaction or changes
Producing in UK isn't that much of a boon if your country have some of the most restrictive lockdown rules in the west from what I have understood. Didn't they completely close down for weeks, if not a few months, in a row last year? So even if they don't have to rely on shipping from China they are instead hampered on the production itself. Not to mention the problems with getting raw materials for them and sending products out. The new strain that was found in the UK a few months back messed up logistics even before Brexit happened. Above the normal delays due to the pandemic.
yeah, there was a shut down a year ago, if this still has an effect GW is actually in a very bad position....
raw material is a thing, as I don't know how much GW puts on stock (worth a yearly production, or less?) everything else is not an excuse why they are not making more
if they cannot make more because of what happend a year ago, their in house production would actually be a disadvantage over a chinese factory (and this is hard to believe)
not stocking enough raw material so not being able to produce more boxes, well I guess than we won't see a lot of new models anyway in the next months
not being able to ship or having problems with logistics should not change the number of sets produced
NinthMusketeer wrote: Anecdotal, but they did not seem to have issues with starter set production in the year before the pandemic.
Hmm. Makes you wonder if there's a link between an ongoing global pandemic & current production problems?
Nah. Couldn't be.....
The LOGICAL explanation is that the eeevil toy company is intentionally under producing things just out of spite/incompetence.
Yeah, that's got to be it.
yukishiro1 wrote: The last eldar box they did was a massive flop, that probably had something to do with their sales estimates.
The last eldar box was about 50% more models but also for a price point well above 200 USD. (230 iirc). It was an important experiment because it showed GW where the ceiling is in terms of prices for box sets.
Ironically, if they released that box set NOW, alongside the Dark Eldar Codex update, it'd probably do a lot better, since it had a lot of stuff that now is quite potent or at least buffed in the new Codex.
At the time, it was released at the beginning of Psychic Awakening where we had no clue what 9th edition would really look like.
Either way, my concern is that the message that GW got from that box set is "Eldar aren't as popular as the internet seems to be whining about, so they don't need to get a big updated range"
Which of course isn't the way it works, because GW plans out these models 2-10 years in advance, so if they've updated Eldar, those models are already designed and made.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Anecdotal, but they did not seem to have issues with starter set production in the year before the pandemic.
Hmm. Makes you wonder if there's a link between an ongoing global pandemic & current production problems?
current production problems for GW others seem to be fine
but I guess this is the first set that was sold out in minutes and the numbers were well below demand
so it is clearly the pandemic as otherwise this would have happend to other GW products too
another point is, why should GW send stuff to local stores that sell them with discount if they can sell it for the full price directly
that GW does not give out more to vendors has nothing to do with production shortage but with wanting to sell it directly for more profit
yukishiro1 wrote: The last eldar box they did was a massive flop, that probably had something to do with their sales estimates.
I doubt they had fears for this box not flying off the shelves considering they strapped wings to it in the form of a few SoB models.
They might have learned that an eldar+eldar over priced box with old unsold stock isn't selling though. One might hope.
Sadly the lesson from that might be that Eldar doesn't sell.
Not that Eldar need new models ><
I'm sure they can look at how many falcons and vyper they sell on their own and make the connection, they are cynical, not dumb. It's probably why they were in the box in the first place, with hopes of new models selling the old ones.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Anecdotal, but they did not seem to have issues with starter set production in the year before the pandemic.
Hmm. Makes you wonder if there's a link between an ongoing global pandemic & current production problems?
current production problems for GW others seem to be fine
but I guess this is the first set that was sold out in minutes and the numbers were well below demand
so it is clearly the pandemic as otherwise this would have happend to other GW products too
another point is, why should GW send stuff to local stores that sell them with discount if they can sell it for the full price directly
that GW does not give out more to vendors has nothing to do with production shortage but with wanting to sell it directly for more profit
GW is out of stock of a LOT of stuff. Their other products absolutely have been hit.
yukishiro1 wrote: The last eldar box they did was a massive flop, that probably had something to do with their sales estimates.
I doubt they had fears for this box not flying off the shelves considering they strapped wings to it in the form of a few SoB models.
They might have learned that an eldar+eldar over priced box with old unsold stock isn't selling though. One might hope.
Sadly the lesson from that might be that Eldar doesn't sell.
Not that Eldar need new models ><
This year they are coming.
Just gotta believe!
GW: A special new treat for Eldar players, the new "Groundripper Wave-Ophidian." Eldar Wraithsmiths have been hard at work forging a new and unorthodox transport for your Eldar troops. Introducing the first TRACKED vehical for the Eldar race. The Groundripper Wave-Ophidian Heavy Transport! It comes ready for battle with FIVE Eldar Shuri-Stubbers! That's right, FIVE WHOLE Shuri-Stubbers! And where would a ground transport be without having some big firepower? Introducing the new "Eldar Heavy Powerflux Grav-Wave Inhibitor Cannon!" That's right, have fun blasting your opponents heavy armor off the table with this new D3 Shot S12 AP-4 5 Damage weapon, sporting the always welcome 170 inch range! And we need some missiles too, so we've added two "Tri-Blade Shuri-FusionTopper Missle Racks" to this beauty.Troop capacity is three because we put so many guns and crap on it that it's basically a bradley fighting vehical. 389 points. 99.99$ buy ten of them now!
GW's strange treatment of the Eldar is one of the most baffling things about Warhammer to me.
Nothing they do (or don't do) regarding them makes much sense.
They largely ignore the model range for twenty years. Most of the releases they do get are sporadic and nonsensical at best.
They keep ancient models from the 90s in production for them instead of making new ones or just removing them.
Even though most of them look embarrasingly dated.
They create the Ynarri and the next big step in their story. A fresh start even coming with some new character models...then pretty much ignore it for years. No codex, no new model range apart from the three characters. Nothing.
They release that huge campaign box packed with the same mostly ancient models, at a huge price, then presumably wonder why it doesn't sell so good.
I could go on. I think its past time for GW to gak or get off the pot with the Eldar.
dan2026 wrote: GW's strange treatment of the Eldar is one of the most baffling things about Warhammer to me.
Nothing they do (or don't do) regarding them makes much sense.
They largely ignore the model range for twenty years. Most of the releases they do get are sporadic and nonsensical at best.
They keep ancient models from the 90s in production for them instead of making new ones or just removing them.
Even though most of them look embarrasingly dated.
They create the Ynarri and the next big step in their story. A fresh start even coming with some new character models...then pretty much ignore it for years. No codex, no new model range apart from the three characters. Nothing.
They release that huge campaign box packed with the same mostly ancient models, at a huge price, then presumably wonder why it doesn't sell so good.
I could go on. I think its past time for GW to gak or get off the pot with the Eldar.
I almost wonder if it's because they've got Jes Goodwin on the design team being incredibly, incredibly picky about what and how they update the eldar. Basically all their rules feel like they were written by someone who is a big fan of them, but has absolutely no idea what direction the rest of the game is moving in at any given time. Like all the weird, baffling close combat oriented abilities you can choose to give your squads of Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers in the most recent update to them. it's like something you'd see from one of the hyper-grogs in the proposed rules forums, who play like twice an edition and show up with their ancient all metal eldar army and blink at you all confused when they try to do something like move an exarch away from the squad alone.
*terrified intern knocking on door*
"YES? WHAT IS IT?"
"um, jes, sir, the design team asked me to let you know, um, it's about howling banshees"
"ahhh yes, howling banshees. One of my favorites, young laddie. These terrifying warriors will cleave.....whirling....snoooooooore...."
"Um, yes, howling banshees, yes sir, we were going to update power swords to have an extra point of strength, and since the new kit is coming out..."
"Strength four? FOUR? Why they'd nearly be cleaving a terminator straight in twain with each swing! What's wrong with the stats they have now?"
"Well sir, with only strength three and only two attacks-"
"yes yes a mighty whirlwind of death. Two attacks! Each! Plus of course the extra attack from having two weapons"
"-no sir, that's not-"
"And, and young man, a parry, each!"
"-what's a parry, Jes?"
"it all just seems unreasonable to me. Harrumph. What if I give them sixteen more aspect powers, will you leave me to nap in my crumpled paper nest?"
Well, the one hope that I have is we'll see less Space Marines and more -everything else- now that the edition has begun in earnest.
The last big reveal, having not a single space marine in sight, was a great move. No Primaris Lts, no brand new Primaris 2.0 Marneus Calgar.
We have new Sisters of Battle, Admech, and even some really wild Orks coming, and that'll likely take us well into the Summer. After that, I'm hoping that we continue to see some fun new things, particularly for Eldar.
As a Sisters player, I know the pain of waiting over a decade for attention to the model range, but the wait was worth it. I can only hope the same for Eldar.
drbored wrote: Well, the one hope that I have is we'll see less Space Marines and more -everything else- now that the edition has begun in earnest.
The last big reveal, having not a single space marine in sight, was a great move. No Primaris Lts, no brand new Primaris 2.0 Marneus Calgar.
We have new Sisters of Battle, Admech, and even some really wild Orks coming, and that'll likely take us well into the Summer. After that, I'm hoping that we continue to see some fun new things, particularly for Eldar.
As a Sisters player, I know the pain of waiting over a decade for attention to the model range, but the wait was worth it. I can only hope the same for Eldar.
Yeah that was very refreshing.
Looking forward to all the new Ork models.
If they can redo the Sisters range (and do a damn good job) they can redo the Craftworlds range.
Just to offer an alternate explanation to Eldar treatment...
Isn't an possible that, simply, the few original sculptors/authors still there have a lot of pull in the company (or in the design team)?
From my experience, people from outside tends to underestimate the importance of human relationships in the decision making process of complex companies.
Look... Dark Angels are good. You hear that? Dark Angels are good! They haven't been good... since ever! If Dark Angels can be good, then I have faith that some other factions coming up will see love. We're just being salty because the pace of releases had a big slow-down.
Cybtroll wrote: Just to offer an alternate explanation to Eldar treatment...
Isn't an possible that, simply, the few original sculptors/authors still there have a lot of pull in the company (or in the design team)?
From my experience, people from outside tends to underestimate the importance of human relationships in the decision making process of complex companies.
A scenario like the scotsman just drew up is entirely possible, and similar for model design.
But that doesn't make it any less of a colossal failure on GW's part.
We, the customer, don't care what their excuse is. We care that they are failing to support a faction.
They create the Ynarri and the next big step in their story. A fresh start even coming with some new character models...then pretty much ignore it for years. No codex, no new model range apart from the three characters. Nothing.
I think this is the key bit.
Maybe its push-back from squatting Fantasy. Maybe its the mixed messaging the got over just the idea that old marines might get squatted. Maybe it was the change in management, or the designers convincing the new guy that no, they needed to go back to craftworlds rather than keep going in the new direction.
But I think Ynnari got hardcore derailed internally, and they had nothing to follow-up with in any direction beyond a few bare heads on the banshee sprue. And they've needed the time to sort things out.
I suspect we won't see where that process lead until next year.
dan2026 wrote: One day Eldar will get their time to shine.
I still think they're cool, even if they are forgotten and unloved.
Would be a bit sad and embarrassing if after this animation comes out new people go looking for Eldar models though...
Spoiler:
This looks cool- I don't remember seeing it before. I always figured Scorpions would be the next plastic Aspect, just because they are playable in both Kill Team and 40k, just like the other two plastic Aspects. Not that the animation is any guarantee, but it looks like an attempt to generate interest, so who knows? Nice to see the Avatar in there.
All I know is I placed another order with Mierce for some stuff I'm unlikely to play with and I'm also gathering the courage to look into getting some rules/lore for inffinity... My 40k interest is drying up faster than a heretic corpse scourged by holy fire.
Yarium wrote: Look... Dark Angels are good. You hear that? Dark Angels are good! They haven't been good... since ever! If Dark Angels can be good, then I have faith that some other factions coming up will see love. We're just being salty because the pace of releases had a big slow-down.
You don't want to bring Dark Angels in this discussion
They are still stuck with metal models, and if GW's favourite sons are still in metal you don't get much confidence that they will consider xenos being in failcast a real issue
dan2026 wrote: One day Eldar will get their time to shine.
I still think they're cool, even if they are forgotten and unloved.
Would be a bit sad and embarrassing if after this animation comes out new people go looking for Eldar models though...
Spoiler:
IKR.
I can't believe they have an avatar killing a dreadnought - kind of expecting it to be taken down by a scout in the next frame....
An Avatar should slice through a Dreadnought like paper, same as a Bloodthirster would.
What will be jarring when this animation comes out is that this is clearly the Forgeworld Avatar, but when people will go to the GW website they will just see the old and smallavatar.
At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
Ordana wrote: But that doesn't make it any less of a colossal failure on GW's part.
We, the customer, don't care what their excuse is. We care that they are failing to support a faction.
I'm currently working on the theory that every time there's a post here whining about how long it is taking to get an Eldar range refresh out into the world, the launch date moves back either a month or a year.
If the latter, then since Christmas alone they've been pushed back to the year 3,000.
Might be similar for the IG, unfortunately, but despite getting less releases than Eldar since the beginning of 7th edition - and losing more models over the same period - for some reason there are fewer complaints.
Ordana wrote: But that doesn't make it any less of a colossal failure on GW's part.
We, the customer, don't care what their excuse is. We care that they are failing to support a faction.
I'm currently working on the theory that every time there's a post here whining about how long it is taking to get an Eldar range refresh out into the world, the launch date moves back either a month or a year.
If the latter, then since Christmas alone they've been pushed back to the year 3,000.
Might be similar for the IG, unfortunately, but despite getting less releases than Eldar since the beginning of 7th edition - and losing more models over the same period - for some reason there are fewer complaints.
Guard have plenty of reasons to complain aswell for sure. They haven't gotten anything except a few Sly Marbo models in years but atleast their line is (almost ) entirely in plastic and not finecast.
I think maybe it’s because although a lot of Guard plastic models are old as hell, they are still plastic and can be converted easily using a lot of GWs other newer plastic human models.
Necromunda, Blackstone Fortress etc.
So while their range is old, it still feels like you have options.
Kinda.
None of this is true for the Eldar.
I also have this strong feeling we might be getting a Catachans vs Tyranids ‘40K does Predator’ box set coming.
dan2026 wrote: I think maybe it’s because although a lot of Guard plastic models are old as hell, they are still plastic and can be converted easily using a lot of GWs other newer plastic human models.
Necromunda, Blackstone Fortress etc.
So while their range is old, it still feels like you have options.
Kinda.
None of this is true for the Eldar.
I also have this strong feeling we might be getting a Catachans vs Tyranids ‘40K does Predator’ box set coming.
dan2026 wrote: I think maybe it’s because although a lot of Guard plastic models are old as hell, they are still plastic and can be converted easily using a lot of GWs other newer plastic human models.
Necromunda, Blackstone Fortress etc.
So while their range is old, it still feels like you have options.
Kinda.
None of this is true for the Eldar.
I also have this strong feeling we might be getting a Catachans vs Tyranids ‘40K does Predator’ box set coming.
Catachan vs tryanid duel box would be very cool.
Imagine a catachan devil being in that box... Take my money now!
Jidmah wrote:At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
Indeed. Unless someone already has the Forgeworld one, even current possessors of the original would be induced to purchase the new one. It would also be a good leader in updating the Aspects as well. Unfortunately, unless they are already in development, we'll probably not see any Craftworld models any time soon.
Argive wrote:Imagine a catachan devil being in that box... Take my money now!
While it may not get mine, I can't argue how quickly it would sell.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
The problem is if they start putting effort into CWE they distract from the designated protagonist status of Astartes.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
They might be holding off on Eldar because they were so reviled in 7th. And maybe they WERE going to "reimagine" them with Ynnari and that process got halted. Otherwise, Eldar got a number of kits for 6th-7th.
I definitely subscribe to the theory 8th was originally thought out as far more of a model reset than it ended up. Between the Ynnari buildup at the end of 7th and the early lore and timejump around the Primaris (especially having now rolled it back)
I think the backlash to the AoS move stayed their hand leading to the supremely bloated Astartes faction and the continued lack of anything of significance for Eldar
I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.
And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
They might be holding off on Eldar because they were so reviled in 7th. And maybe they WERE going to "reimagine" them with Ynnari and that process got halted. Otherwise, Eldar got a number of kits for 6th-7th.
A very small number really. And getting less each edition.
In 7th they got 4 kits/models. In 8th they got 3. In 9th well...we live in hope!
You don't want to know how many different kits/models Space Marines got between 6th edition and 9th edtion.
I'll give a hint. Its more than 60....
Edit : feth man I got depressed just writing that.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
They might be holding off on Eldar because they were so reviled in 7th. And maybe they WERE going to "reimagine" them with Ynnari and that process got halted. Otherwise, Eldar got a number of kits for 6th-7th.
A very small number really. And getting less each edition.
In 7th they got 4 kits/models. In 8th they got 3. In 9th well...we live in hope!
You don't want to know how many different kits/models Space Marines got between 6th edition and 9th edtion.
I'll give a hint. Its more than 60....
Edit : feth man I got depressed just writing that.
I don't think equating the two is worth much tbh. And when we're talking "Space Marines" in this case, we're really talking Primaris, which is basically a relaunch of the flagship faction. Unfortunately it's apples and oranges comparing that to Eldar. And yes the fatigue is real. GW has gone whole hog down that route and yes it's depressing.
But I think when comparing to other factions the Eldar situation doesn't look too bad if we consider that Eldar might involve an aborted Ynnari plan. And if it IS the case that the state of Eldar is partially due to a cancelled Ynnari-Aeldari transformation, then I'm all the more happy for it, personally. I think Eldar are ripe for a release of plastic Aspects, etc. and those coming late is better than never getting them because of some Ynnari-Eldar-Rebirth garbage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.
And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.
Some of those single pieces of pewter still look better than a number of plastic models.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
They might be holding off on Eldar because they were so reviled in 7th. And maybe they WERE going to "reimagine" them with Ynnari and that process got halted. Otherwise, Eldar got a number of kits for 6th-7th.
A very small number really. And getting less each edition.
In 7th they got 4 kits/models. In 8th they got 3. In 9th well...we live in hope!
You don't want to know how many different kits/models Space Marines got between 6th edition and 9th edtion.
I'll give a hint. Its more than 60....
Edit : feth man I got depressed just writing that.
I don't think equating the two is worth much tbh. And when we're talking "Space Marines" in this case, we're really talking Primaris, which is basically a relaunch of the flagship faction. Unfortunately it's apples and oranges comparing that to Eldar. And yes the fatigue is real. GW has gone whole hog down that route and yes it's depressing.
But I think when comparing to other factions the Eldar situation doesn't look too bad if we consider that Eldar might involve an aborted Ynnari plan. And if it IS the case that the state of Eldar is partially due to a cancelled Ynnari-Aeldari transformation, then I'm all the more happy for it, personally. I think Eldar are ripe for a release of plastic Aspects, etc. and those coming late is better than never getting them because of some Ynnari-Eldar-Rebirth garbage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.
And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.
Some of those single pieces of pewter still look better than a number of plastic models.
6th was before Primaris to be fair and Space Marines still got 12 kits in that ed including new Tactical Marines and Devastators.
The Eldar Guardian Squad came out in 1999 in 3rd edition. And have never been updated.
And you can tell.
Ah well, I feel I'm shouting into the void. Everyone and their dog buy enough Space Marines for them to keep churning them out forever.
Ordana wrote: But that doesn't make it any less of a colossal failure on GW's part.
We, the customer, don't care what their excuse is. We care that they are failing to support a faction.
I'm currently working on the theory that every time there's a post here whining about how long it is taking to get an Eldar range refresh out into the world, the launch date moves back either a month or a year.
If the latter, then since Christmas alone they've been pushed back to the year 3,000.
Might be similar for the IG, unfortunately, but despite getting less releases than Eldar since the beginning of 7th edition - and losing more models over the same period - for some reason there are fewer complaints.
It is a 24 hour timer, which resets every time someone mentions the issue. That is how it worked for Squats until they accidentally broke the clock and had to make a Squat miniature. This is cannon: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc0-8BBkkq4&t=0s
I think it's fair to say that SOMETHING is going on at some level with Eldar; there was an interview (a Voxcast?) with Jes where he basically said he was asked for two kits to release alongside the wraithknight and the aeroplane. He chose the bikes and the wraithguard, but I don't recall that he expanded much on what didn't make the cut. However, you can only make a decision about something you're actually working on even if only as a concept, right? Now whether they ever move on from there... In my more optimistic moments I like to think that the Banshees were a "we haven't forgotten you guys" message, but equally I agree that there was clearly something lined up with Ynnari that didn't pan out. In some ways it's a shame, the extra creative freedom they're feeling with AoS is producing some fantastic stuff.
If anyone needs new models it is the Eldar Range, I remember a friend of mine looking into starting them and deciding against it because he saw how old parts were and was simply discouraged by how unsupported the range turned out to be, along with how old the kits were and just dropped the project a few months in.
I play Orks and Tyranids primarily and well I'd rather Eldar get support than me getting some new squigs (which I am happy to accept, always love seeing non space marine releases) but Eldar could seriously use updated Guardians and better rules across the board for their models that currently exist.
I know that Space marine releases are pretty much a money printing button for GW but come on...
Jidmah wrote: At this point, reinventing the avatar as a center-piece model akin to Thrakka, Gulliman, Abaddon or the recently revealed Be'lakor seems like a no-brainer way to print money.
You'd think so. But its been how many years since the reimagined bloodthirster? The plastic c'tan buried away inside the obelisk box? The wood elf treeman? Nagash? The mountain cow? (yeah, ok, that one is recent)
Something just gums up the works for eldar, and it doesn't stop them from doing similar models for other factions.
They might be holding off on Eldar because they were so reviled in 7th. And maybe they WERE going to "reimagine" them with Ynnari and that process got halted. Otherwise, Eldar got a number of kits for 6th-7th.
A very small number really. And getting less each edition.
In 7th they got 4 kits/models. In 8th they got 3. In 9th well...we live in hope!
You don't want to know how many different kits/models Space Marines got between 6th edition and 9th edtion.
I'll give a hint. Its more than 60....
Edit : feth man I got depressed just writing that.
I don't think equating the two is worth much tbh. And when we're talking "Space Marines" in this case, we're really talking Primaris, which is basically a relaunch of the flagship faction. Unfortunately it's apples and oranges comparing that to Eldar. And yes the fatigue is real. GW has gone whole hog down that route and yes it's depressing.
But I think when comparing to other factions the Eldar situation doesn't look too bad if we consider that Eldar might involve an aborted Ynnari plan. And if it IS the case that the state of Eldar is partially due to a cancelled Ynnari-Aeldari transformation, then I'm all the more happy for it, personally. I think Eldar are ripe for a release of plastic Aspects, etc. and those coming late is better than never getting them because of some Ynnari-Eldar-Rebirth garbage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.
And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.
Some of those single pieces of pewter still look better than a number of plastic models.
6th was before Primaris to be fair and Space Marines still got 12 kits in that ed including new Tactical Marines and Devastators.
The Eldar Guardian Squad came out in 1999 in 3rd edition. And have never been updated.
And you can tell.
Ah well, I feel I'm shouting into the void. Everyone and their dog buy enough Space Marines for them to keep churning them out forever.
I honestly don't remember the new kits for SM other than the Tacticals and Devastators. The Wraithknight and Jetbikes were pretty major releases for Eldar. What else did they get in that era, the flyer/s? When did the Wraithguard dual kit come out?
I'm pretty sure the 7th ed releases for Eldar covered the following:
- New Jetbikes
- Warlock/Farseer on Jetbike
- Wraithknight
- Wraithguard/blades
- Crimson Hunter & Hemlock
- I think the Death Masque box with plastic Eldrad was in 7th as well, though I can't recall when he got a solo release
When was the solo plastic Farseer released again?
8th saw plastic Spiritseer, Jain Zar and Banshees - there's also the Webway Gate terrain piece, but I thought that was a Harli release, not a Craftworlds one. It also shows under the DE on the webstore - is it included in their new book?
I don't think equating the two is worth much tbh. And when we're talking "Space Marines" in this case, we're really talking Primaris, which is basically a relaunch of the flagship faction. Unfortunately it's apples and oranges comparing that to Eldar. And yes the fatigue is real. GW has gone whole hog down that route and yes it's depressing.
A proper relaunch would have sunset some of the older Space Marine units, but instead the Primaris launch just made the Space Marine faction unwieldy.
I think a good codex and good plastic models go hand in hand. I got some CSM which are in boxes unopened which I am taking my time to do simply because I am assembling and painting other armies right now. And its mainly because the CSM codex is a mess in terms of rules and badly needs a proper 9th edition codex. I have been playing CSM for years and always had issues with their rules. It just seems like GW doesn't know what to do with CSM.
Its a pity because some of the new models are gorgeous. I bought 3 predators, a Vindicator and a LR, they are all on the shelf. I have a forgefiend and 3 hellbrutes, have hardly used them much for years, I do love my 2 venomcrawlers and 2 Lord Discordants, though they die easily. Same for my centerpiece Lord of skulls which in most games get blown up and lose me the game too. So, I have already bought tons of CSM stuff, both old and new models (I love my new Abaddon model Noctilith Crown), and I have been playing CSM for years, I just need them to finally come up with a CSM codex that isn't a mess or require me to soup in daemons, or primarchs just to have a decent game.
GW has ruined Space Marines for me. To me the most iconic pieces of Space Marines art are the one's where their martyrdom is presented like 1st edition cover and The Last Stand by Kev Walker.
I would have accepted if the the deus-ex was just Kha'Banda and a legion of daemons. Instead it was fething. Dam. Ultramarines. Again. AGAIN. I am SO SICK of fething Ultramarines being smeared across everyone's fluff.
dan2026 wrote: The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.
Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.
dan2026 wrote: The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.
Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.
We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !
dan2026 wrote: The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.
Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.
We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !
That is SOOO true. Or at least, which ever Chapter is up next for a supplement, an Angels or the Wolves.
Spoletta wrote: The devastation of Baal is probably a good read then.
I've heard it is. Though they get dues-ex saved at the end. Lame.
It's like the 2nd time Blood Angels have been *nearly* wiped out by tyranids but tyranids are beaten back last minute, yadda yadda yadda.
As a nid player we even lose the majority of the time in our codex vs marines! Kinda funny!
The curse of having absolutely no plot armor.
It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.
It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.
I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
dan2026 wrote: The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.
Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.
We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !
That is SOOO true. Or at least, which ever Chapter is up next for a supplement, an Angels or the Wolves.
If I remember correctly that war has unfortunately ended with the birth of the Great Rift separating the 2 factions. Making it basically an inconclusive draw. Damn shame as that war was one of my favorite pieces of fluff.
Spoletta wrote: The devastation of Baal is probably a good read then.
I've heard it is. Though they get dues-ex saved at the end. Lame.
It's like the 2nd time Blood Angels have been *nearly* wiped out by tyranids but tyranids are beaten back last minute, yadda yadda yadda.
As a nid player we even lose the majority of the time in our codex vs marines! Kinda funny!
The curse of having absolutely no plot armor.
It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.
It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.
I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
Well I think the thing to remember is the "defeats" for Tyranids is generally after they've already annihilated 10/100s of worlds. They're like big waves crashing on the shores of the Imperium, and when each wave finally loses momentum and disperses/turns back it's a "win" for the Imperium.
I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMOGW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMOGW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.
Which is exactly the kind of thing that they want people to read. It gives people hype for the army that they chose. Few people get EVERY Codex. They'll get one or two for the armies they play.
I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting.
drbored wrote: ...I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting...
The "My army is too weak, according to the lore they need to curbstomp everyone because my book says they never lose!" threads about "accurately representing the fluff" are a bit of a problem.
Until I get guardsmen without number and many orbital bombardments every turn, my guard are too weak, GW do something.
Edit: We used to say guard died so easy and often in the fluff that every planet in the universe even planets humans never landed on have thousands of dead and dying guardsmen there as soon as you land. That's just how often they die to everything.
Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.
Guard had a limited type without number thing for conscripts once upon a time, it didn't work very well and generally didn't get used but it was there.
I agree though armies in general should have some more fun rules as opposed to it all being tied into strats. I actually miss the days before strats and gotcha tactics being so all over the place.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMOGW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.
Which is exactly the kind of thing that they want people to read. It gives people hype for the army that they chose. Few people get EVERY Codex. They'll get one or two for the armies they play.
I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting.
Totally, but what we have now is too much of a good thing. Books make it seem like the army's strengths are insurmountable, and it's flaws trivial. They come across as more or less undefeatabile, even bordering Mary Sue status at times. It is a case where for me, less would be more. If they aren't unbeatable, if they do have trouble dealing with stuff sometimes, if they have suffered notable setbacks, then the victories mean something. When they walk over everything then winning doesn't mean anything because that is simply all they ever do.
Insectum7 wrote:Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.
I seem to remember the later 3rd Ed/early 4th Ed Codices having it, but I don't have that copy any more. I remember Conscripts being a lone unit then (but i'ts been a while), and the capacity was with a Chapter Tactic style Regiment ability, but again, it's been years since I looked at that book.
The 5th Edition one had Commander Chenkov who would allow for Conscript Squads to have the rule for 75 points, which started at 80 points for 20, but could also add 30 more. Coscripts were required to be part of the Infantry Platoon at the time, too, so Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads were required before you purchased them.
Chenkov disappeared for the 6th Edition codex, and I think with him the last mention of that ability, along with any specific written requirement for Platoon squads only being purchased as part of a Platoon.
Insectum7 wrote:Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.
I seem to remember the later 3rd Ed/early 4th Ed Codices having it, but I don't have that copy any more. I remember Conscripts being a lone unit then (but i'ts been a while), and the capacity was with a Chapter Tactic style Regiment ability, but again, it's been years since I looked at that book.
The 5th Edition one had Commander Chenkov who would allow for Conscript Squads to have the rule for 75 points, which started at 80 points for 20, but could also add 30 more. Coscripts were required to be part of the Infantry Platoon at the time, too, so Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads were required before you purchased them.
Chenkov disappeared for the 6th Edition codex, and I think with him the last mention of that ability, along with any specific written requirement for Platoon squads only being purchased as part of a Platoon.
I've got a copy of the 3.5 dex, and I couldn't find any Without Number sort of rule (nor do I recall seeing one there). Unless it was present in one of the campaign books/WD (or possibly the 2e 'dex - just got a copy a month back and gave it a first read, and while I don't recall anything like that there either, I don't know it nearly as well as the 3.5e/5e 'dexes), I don't think we had that before Chenkov.
Also, to note: I don't believe we ever had Without Number for anything other than Conscripts (barring the 8e Valhallan Stratagem). I'm sure many a narrative/campaign/scenario game was played with a Guard player who could respawn units, but that would have been bespoke.
drbored wrote: I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.
And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.
Guard players are not happy. They maybe in plastic but they look like gak.
Voss wrote: It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.
It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.
I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.
We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.
So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.
My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.
We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.
Voss wrote: It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.
It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.
I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.
We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.
So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.
My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.
We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.
Yeah remember the absolutely awesome, metal storyline of Space Hulk, where canonically many of the blood angels in the box get eaten by genestealers? And you had one of the models I think the Lightning Claw one who has a heroic last stand holding a corridor, and his sculpt has all gouges and wounds in it because it's from that scene in the fiction book?
That's something you lose with GW's current "talk a big game about the imperium being beset on all sides, but space marines are basically always depicted as winning". There's only so long before it starts to feel like He-Man or some other old 1980s kids cartoon - there's only so many times Skeletor can get beaten before you start questioning WHY the heroic heroes are always 'on the back foot' at the beginning of the episode.
Voss wrote: It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.
It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.
I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.
We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.
So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.
My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.
We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.
Last time this was done that I am aware of was Forgeworld's "Anphelion Campaign" book, which ended with a loss for the Guard/Marines.
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...
Bobthehero wrote: Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...
The Imperium in general has a symptom where they don't win unless Marines show up. Outside of their respective codex, how often do Imperium factions actually win without marines? It just feeds into the strange dynamic of marines being both extremely elite and low in number but also everywhere with plenty of numbers. Particularly the founding chapters. I know there will always be some dissonance between fluff and gameplay and can accept that. But the sheer gulf between the lore concept of marines and the lore actions of marines is distracting and undermines the whole idea of forging the narrative.
Bobthehero wrote: Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...
Bobthehero wrote: Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
I've thought for a while that the Primarchs are kind of a problem in spurring this. They're essentially grimdark professional wrestling characters with the same exaggerated dramatics and adversarial relationships - Hell, I think there's a few straight-up wrestling power drops and over-the-knee backbreakers between them in the Heresy. Now thanks to 30k, several of them returning, and (much as the series amuses) the heavily memeable Text-to-Speech-Device, every third conversation about 40k revolves around them, their larger-than-life personalities, or their successor chapters as related to them.
Bobthehero wrote: There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...
Some are like that, but despite maining Chaos these days I definitely think that the oversaturation is pure Space Marines.
The Guard are actually kind of a noteworthy case - I think if the game had oversaturated any other faction to the degree it oversaturated Space Marines, then it could become as or near as tiresome, but not the Guard. The Guard could be the protagonist faction with the most support, several different regiments and a ton of tanks and regular updates, and have it work. They're "guys with guns and big tanks," which makes them extremely thematically flexible; They die in droves, have droves to die in, don't always or even usually win, and no other faction so well carries the theme of heroic, futile struggle and being beset on all sides by powerful, terrifying foes. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread (probably), when a Guardsman of any stripe holds off a Chaos Lord or Warboss for long enough to hold the objective, that's genuinely heroic both on and off the tabletop, much moreso than when a Primaris Space Marine does the same.
You want a grimdark universe where life is the most expendable currency, you don't make the most commonly displayed protagonists expensive and valuable superhumans several times as good as their opposition and with so much gear that their weapon names become blurs of middle-school awesome. Even a Space Marine power fantasy would be improved by them being significantly rarer.
CSM sometimes does or does not get lumped into SM oversaturation, but I'll be clear that I'd be fine with CSM being a little less represented in favor of Daemons or the Heretic Guard that they squatted despite supposedly being everywhere lorewise.
Bobthehero wrote: Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
I've thought for a while that the Primarchs are kind of a problem in spurring this. They're essentially grimdark professional wrestling characters with the same exaggerated dramatics and adversarial relationships - Hell, I think there's a few straight-up wrestling power drops and over-the-knee backbreakers between them in the Heresy. Now thanks to 30k, several of them returning, and (much as the series amuses) the heavily memeable Text-to-Speech-Device, every third conversation about 40k revolves around them, their larger-than-life personalities, or their successor chapters as related to them.
^100%. They should have stayed dead, vague, unexplained and off 30-40K tables.
Bobthehero wrote: Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.
Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.
There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...
Vraks was the Guard kicking ass though?
It's a very pyrrhic victory. Cool book though.
I mean it was a tactical victory with the added fact that it was a strategic defeat overall.
Still, digging out the vraksians was an tall order. I also fully admit that as a R&H fan
That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Stormonu wrote: That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.
Stormonu wrote: That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.
This.
In 40k terms it's:
There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!
But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.
Stormonu wrote: That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.
This.
In 40k terms it's:
There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!
But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.
You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.
SemperMortis wrote: You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.
As you have been thoroughly educated multiple times that this has absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened in the lore regarding Thrakka and Ragnar, I kindly ask you stop spreading lies on this topic. You are giving ork players a bad name if you continue to spread these untruths.
In case you are still confused about what actually happened in that particularly fight, I suggest you give one of the threads a look which you opened specifically to rant on this topic, despite not even having read the fluff.
SemperMortis wrote: You are severely under-estimating the space marines here. Not only can any random chapter master beat a lord of skulls without breaking a sweat, but if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions. Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.
As you have been thoroughly educated multiple times that this has absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened in the lore regarding Thrakka and Ragnar, I kindly ask you stop spreading lies on this topic. You are giving ork players a bad name if you continue to spread these untruths.
In case you are still confused about what actually happened in that particularly fight, I suggest you give one of the threads a look which you opened specifically to rant on this topic, despite not even having read the fluff.
Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?
Stormonu wrote: That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.
This.
In 40k terms it's:
There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!
But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.
This has always been a core contradiction at the heart of 40k, going back longer than just 8th or 9th.
At the end of the day, the Imperium has overwhelming might and advantages in men and materiel. They dwarf every other faction in terms of sheer numbers with the possible exception of the Tyranids. They have hundreds of thousands of potential planets that are purely focused on cranking out military goods on a constant and daily basis and hundreds of thousands more that are dedicated to churning out bodies. Even if a Space Marine chapter does get wiped out, they have excessive stores of gene seed and being an advanced spacefaring civilization can re-start and construct the infrastructure needed to have a fully operational Chapter again after only 20-30 years.
And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.
Stormonu wrote: That tends to be the prior trend, all the Imperial victories, when you step back and look at them, are pyrrhic in nature (and meant to be). The Empire wins, but at the cost that it will hurt them in the near future and slide them closer to eventual collapse - that’s part of the nature of the Grimdark; Imperium wins and barely manages to stave off collapse but at the price that the next time this happens (and it will!), they’ve set themselves up for defeat.
Nowadays though, it seems with the shift towards the return of Guilliman that the Imperium seems to actually be winning.
Sure, but it's a matter of show vs tell. You can TELL me that the autobots or the Masters of the Universe or GI Joe or whoever are desperate rebels barely hanging on in the face of the overwhelming power of the evil skeletor, but when every one of the show's 692 episodes ends in Skeletor being defeated by Prince Adam's rippling thighs barely contained by either outfit you start to feel like maybe the whole stakes thing is a little artificial.
This.
In 40k terms it's:
There's a billion-trillion worlds and only a thousand space marines in a thousand chapters! The enemy is present on every single world en-masse! The Space Marines and their allies are spread thin across millions of battlefronts! Abaddon, the Tyranids, Ghazghul, the Necron, and hundreds of other threats rear their ugly heads at every turn! Any moment, the entire Imperium will collapse and humanity as we know it will cease to exist!
But in actuality, one space marine is enough to turn the tide of an entire warzone, topple an entire necron tomb world, defeat a whole splinter of a hive fleet, or punch a god in the nuts, and he's a no-name primaris lieutenant. Also there's not 1000 space marines in 1000 chapters, it's more like 1000 space marines in 5 million chapters and everyone's chapter master is super powerful and can rip the head off of a khorne lord of skulls without breaking a sweat.
This has always been a core contradiction at the heart of 40k, going back longer than just 8th or 9th.
At the end of the day, the Imperium has overwhelming might and advantages in men and materiel. They dwarf every other faction in terms of sheer numbers with the possible exception of the Tyranids. They have hundreds of thousands of potential planets that are purely focused on cranking out military goods on a constant and daily basis and hundreds of thousands more that are dedicated to churning out bodies. Even if a Space Marine chapter does get wiped out, they have excessive stores of gene seed and being an advanced spacefaring civilization can re-start and construct the infrastructure needed to have a fully operational Chapter again after only 20-30 years.
Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?
And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?
the original chapter is gone but a new one is founded
if you go by the fluff the Imperium has no problem to replace a chapter and by the time the last Marine of the old one is dead the new one is ready to strike
kodos wrote: because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
The Imperium is not a white supremacy empire, it is a human supremacy empire.
I doubt finer fluff details like this are part of a sales talk to get kids into the hobby. More something along the lines of "Space Marines are the heroic defenders of humanity and they are great for beginners, as we have several discounted starter sets on the shelf and they are easy to paint."
And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
Sure. Easy sale.
Just tell them it's not a Star Wars toy glorifying devious terrorists that worship some ancient religion and continuously blow up government property and military heroes with suicide attacks.
And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
Sure. Easy sale.
Just tell them it's not a Star Wars toy glorifying devious terrorists that worship some ancient religion and continuously blow up government property and military heroes with suicide attacks.
In my country you could go for that angle and just go ahead and include the first sales pitch as well and it'd be an easy sale as long as the box art and promotional posters didn't depict space marines in too many different skin tones. Which they generally don't so it's all good.
kodos wrote: because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
The Imperium is not a white supremacy empire, it is a human supremacy empire.
without treating all humans as superior, just those that are in line with the official religion
I doubt finer fluff details like this are part of a sales talk to get kids into the hobby. More something along the lines of "Space Marines are the heroic defenders of humanity and they are great for beginners, as we have several discounted starter sets on the shelf and they are easy to paint."
Their part of sales is aimed in getting you to buy a 2 Player Starter Box and 1-2 cans of primer no matter what you want, if there would be no SM in the starter, they would not advertise them for beginners
yet you don't advertise your poster boys as the ones that would kill of the kids on the street if they are between them and their target
SemperMortis wrote: Did Ragnar live? yes. Was Ghaz decapitated? Yes. So what was the falsehood here?
Ragnar died.
If only that were true Sadly, named characters in 40k have some of the thickest plot armor in the universe.
Death is, for some reason, required in order for the Primaris upgrade silliness to take hold.
The dumbest part of the 40k lore so far has been the Primaris lore.
Stormcaste Restartes. The white powder must have been flowing bigly for GW corporate management when they came up with that, the current, grounding myth.
As for the Imperium of Man, or more wokishly Humankind, it had/has been and should ever be in decline, even losing contra the propaganda e.g. Regimental Standard style and any blurb you see about how Sphayz Mahreens are as strong as a hundred grots. The recent Cawlish turn to flying tanks and restartes with jump packs and autocannons is either heresy in universe or in real life, I.e. GW grey cells high on white powder is not exactly acting in good faith.
The only way for me to stay interested is to ignore GW’s self contradictions and wait for open community sourced rules drawing from older editions allowing if not encouraging also 3rd party miniatures.
Esmer wrote: Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?
That's why there's these things called "tithes".
All chapters submit part of their geneseed to storage. From these new chapters are founded and if need be old ones can be rebuilt.
If entire genepool stock is lost THEN chapter is lost. But losing every single marine AND entire stored genepool(which btw are not stored in chapter's own control...) is extremely unlikely scenario. Would require some serious planned operation to infiltrate Imperium to delete geneseed and wipe out every marine from chapter(likely spread among Imperium) all at once in short period of time window.
And yet the Narrative constantly puts the Imperium as being on the back foot, the underdogs, the heroically outnumbered but superior skilled side of things. When in actual fact it's the complete opposite and always has been.
because it does not works well when little Timmy enters the shop with his grand parents and the main faction of the game he wants to play is a white supremacy facist human empire doing genocide on a daily bases (against aliens as well as humans who are not in line with the government) and the only excuse is that there are things that are more evil and this is the only way mankind can survive
Minor nitpick: I am not sure it works exactly like that with SM geneseed. The most important geneseed storages are the Marines themselves and if every single Marine of a chapter is gone (as was the case with the Fists), shouldn't the chapter be irrevocably lost?
the original chapter is gone but a new one is founded
if you go by the fluff the Imperium has no problem to replace a chapter and by the time the last Marine of the old one is dead the new one is ready to strike
Excuse me what ? You do realize that the imperium isn't all white nor does it care of such nonsense ? Unless we are reading much different fluff I think the only thing they care about is every fights or everyone dies, man, woman, children, anything and everything that could be considered human and I don't much feel like they care about them so much as survival and conquest by whatever means possible.
SemperMortis wrote: "he died" ok is he dead? no, therefore he didn't die. its like the fething monty python scene. "SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!...I got betta".
Instead of moving goalposts, you should just shut up and stop spreading misinformation on fluff you haven't even read just to satisfy your victim-complex. Go read or listen to the fething book instead.
You originally claimed this:
SemperMortis wrote: if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions.
Ragnar neither matched nor beat Thrakka, he was crushed to death the first time, and Thrakka also killed parts of Ragnars honor guard during that fight as well. The second time Ragnar was utterly outmaneuvered and outmatched and forced to retreat having suffered massive losses with nothing to show for it.
It also has been proven to you multiple times that Ragnar is as much "a named captain" as Thrakka is "a named warboss".
Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.
Ragnar did not come out of the duel alive. He literally died of the wounds inflicted on him by Thrakka. DED. They then put him in the magic +1 attack machine to revive him.
It's also worth noting that according to you, getting crushed and revived somehow doesn't count as getting killed, but getting decapitated and your head sown back on does. Double standards, huh?
TL;DR: Everything you wrote on this topic is dishonest and wrong.
SemperMortis wrote: "he died" ok is he dead? no, therefore he didn't die. its like the fething monty python scene. "SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!...I got betta".
Instead of moving goalposts, you should just shut up and stop spreading misinformation on fluff you haven't even read just to satisfy your victim-complex. Go read or listen to the fething book instead.
You originally claimed this:
SemperMortis wrote: if you happen to be a named captain you are able to match if not beat the best of the enemies champions.
Ragnar neither matched nor beat Thrakka, he was crushed to death the first time, and Thrakka also killed parts of Ragnars honor guard during that fight as well.
The second time Ragnar was utterly outmaneuvered and outmatched and forced to retreat having suffered massive losses with nothing to show for it.
It also has been proven to you multiple times that Ragnar is as much "a named captain" as Thrakka is "a named warboss".
Like for instance, when Ragnar was able to duel Ghazghkuul and somehow come out not only alive, but with Ghaz decapitated.
Ragnar did not come out of the duel alive. He literally died of the wounds inflicted on him by Thrakka. DED. They then put him in the magic +1 attack machine to revive him.
It's also worth noting that according to you, getting crushed and revived somehow doesn't count as getting killed, but getting decapitated and your head sown back on does. Double standards, huh?
TL;DR: Everything you wrote on this topic is dishonest and wrong.
Fluff, Ragnar duels the de facto leader of the Ork Faction. Ragnar decapitates Ghaz. Usually this is considered a win in a duel regardless of the NEAR mortal wounds suffered by Ragnar. Now you can argue until you are blue in the face that you are right and I am wrong but as you just quoted me I said ragnar dueled ghaz and decapitated him this in fact happened, and the other quote? I said you can "match" ghaz as a named space marine character. The irony is that you didn't prove that wrong at all, what you did do was launch a bunch of random personal attacks at me.
And just to slam home this point that Ragnar MATCHED Ghaz in the duel, This is from the author of the book, and I quote "You are correct. They both fought to the death, and they both knew, to one degree or another, how the fight was destined to end." https://twitter.com/David_Annandale/status/1246196414729895940
So unless you are saying you know more about the fluff than the guy who wrote it YOU ARE WRONG.
I used to respect your arguments on here, but of late I have seen you drifting more and more into personal attacks, red herrings, strawman arguments and its a bit sad honestly.
First of all, that twitter post actually proves you wrong and me right. Ragnar died. You are wrong, you lose.
Looking forward to your next post moving goalposts even further because you can't ever admit that you are wrong. Which is the main reason why I have stopped engaging with your arguments - which tend to be wrong quite a lot, as you are completely out of touch with both the game and its fluff and seem to get all your information from social media instead of hard data and primary sources.
Jidmah wrote: First of all, that twitter post actually proves you wrong and me right. Ragnar died. You are wrong, you lose.
Looking forward to your next post moving goalposts even further because you can't ever admit that you are wrong. Which is the main reason why I have stopped engaging with your arguments - which tend to be wrong quite a lot, as you are completely out of touch with both the game and its fluff and seem to get all your information from social media instead of hard data and primary sources.
Welcome back Jid, glad to see you still are arguing a dead point that proved you wrong So you are adding assuming to your list of logical fallacies I see. Or even better, you can argue semantics, "he died" except he lives, so are we using the understood definition of the word ***Monty Python Voice*** "it has ceased to be" or do you want to use the more nuanced definition of "he coded, stopped breathing, lost a pulse, but was resuscitated" It is irrelevant either way, hopefully you stop engaging more often.
The fact that we're arguing whether a space marine actually died-died or died-lived or live-died just goes to show you how tiresome the space marine and primaris lore is.
Like, at least in AoS, when Nagash gets banished by Teclis, you know he's not dead-dead because he's a god and has lots of magical whats-its to resurrect himself. When daemons die, they get thrown back into the warp and have to do some boogey-man stuff to come back.
The issue I have with 40k is that there's a lot of 'scienc-y' stuff that tries to take itself seriously, but when you can have your throat slit by a greater daemon of slaanesh and then undergo grueling surgery and come out -better- than you were before? That's some BS.
drbored wrote: The fact that we're arguing whether a space marine actually died-died or died-lived or live-died just goes to show you how tiresome the space marine and primaris lore is.
Like, at least in AoS, when Nagash gets banished by Teclis, you know he's not dead-dead because he's a god and has lots of magical whats-its to resurrect himself. When daemons die, they get thrown back into the warp and have to do some boogey-man stuff to come back.
The issue I have with 40k is that there's a lot of 'scienc-y' stuff that tries to take itself seriously, but when you can have your throat slit by a greater daemon of slaanesh and then undergo grueling surgery and come out -better- than you were before? That's some BS.
waefre_1 wrote: What really gets me is how no one is picking up on the greatest flaw of that whole gakshow:
Ghaz is Old Man Yarrick's to kill. YARRICK. Not some barely civilized wolf-man in cower armor.
Aye, what should have really happened was Ragnar gets clobbered and Yarrick comes in to bust out some IG whuppass, routing the Orks and forcing Ghaz to withdraw and come back some other day.
dhallnet wrote: "Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of
If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.
dhallnet wrote: "Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of
If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.
Good thing it's not a "not believable sciencey stuff" argument then. It's a "what 3rd grader wrote that dumb **** story?" kind of thing.
They just wanted and excuse to get Ragnar to go Rubicon. . . so 3rd grader and a sales department.
dhallnet wrote: "Seriously"
It's all on you I think. It's no more serious than "it's totally magic, get used to it".
They both killed each other and they are both still alive is on a different level than the long-standing in-universe space magic. A new level of
If you say so. 40K "science" is complete "magic", they have "hell engines" to travel through space to cry out loud or "super serious tech totally not magic, interdimensional pocket spaces". And of course they have actual magic on top, but ah no, it's "psy stuff", not magic.
If 40K isn't over the top complete non sense, science = magic for you, I don't know what is.
If you're rather annoyed that they write a story where the two protagonists have to die to then revive, then yeah, I understand, it's pretty bad. But if it's a "it's not believable sciency stuff !!!" argument, I think it's a bit too late for that.
Good thing it's not a "not believable sciencey stuff" argument then. It's a "what 3rd grader wrote that dumb **** story?" kind of thing.
They just wanted and excuse to get Ragnar to go Rubicon. . . so 3rd grader and a sales department.
You're point might be but I'm not sure in the case of DrBored.
But yeah, they wrote a generic "and then they die to become stronger" dumb stuff, like when WFB died and birthed gods But this one can fly it seem.
"Though life had all but left his body in the battle's aftermath, Ragnar was rescued and borne across the Rubicon Primaris in order to revive him."
So he was just alive enough to be Primarisized, instead of dead enough to become our newest dreadnought.
Honestly I'd have preferred him as a dreadnought as then he'd still be able to fit in my drop pod based SW force.
I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".
Insectum7 wrote: I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".
Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
Insectum7 wrote: I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".
Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
If characters are billed as important . . . but you can't kill any of them. . . then don't have them meet in battle in a fight to the death. Ragnars forces could have competed with Ghazgulls forces and narrative could have happened. Mutual fight-to-the-death-but-oh-they-both-didn't-die is silly AF.
GW is too chicken to kill Ragnar, Mephiston, etc....
It would shake things up and prob piss nerds off.
I for one wouldn't mind if He'stan was killed and unable to be primarafied/died crossing. Would give room to expand the story of the Artefacts of Vulcan search and show how the stakes are real.
Same could go for other chapters named characters.
Insectum7 wrote: I was thinking along the same lines myself. Historically speaking the mortally wounded heroes used to get the 'naught treatment. Bionics were also a big part of the aftermath of major injuries. The Rubicon P seems pretty consequence-less in comparison besides "I'm back but better!".
Ah no you see, hundreds of marines have already tried and failed to pass the Rubicon and died as a result. When did this happen? Off-screen of course and no, of course no one of any importance failed. Now this is not just a dig at Primaris, this is just par for the course GW story writing.
If characters are billed as important . . . but you can't kill any of them. . . then don't have them meet in battle in a fight to the death. Ragnars forces could have competed with Ghazgulls forces and narrative could have happened. Mutual fight-to-the-death-but-oh-they-both-didn't-die is silly AF.
I agree with you, but clearly GW does not. Also in Ragnar's and Ghaz particular case I guess they needed an in-lore excuse as to why one is suddenly a primaris now and the other is twice as tall and also why they are both in a box set. Why exactly they bothered when half the other times they don't is anyone's guess.
It's especially odd with Ghaz, since Orks canonically get bigger and stronger the more they fight and win. He didn't need to have his head chopped off. GW were probably too scared of having one non-Marine character just outright win a fight even though I'm sure Space Wolf fans would have probably been totally fine with Ghaz beating Ragnar straight up. It's fething Ghaz. Everybody knows and loves him and understands what a capital B Beast he is.
Compare it to Broken Realms Teclis where Nagash and Arkhan just got absolutely BTFO'd and people (now that they've read the book) are actually mostly fine with it.
I still believe that GW are terrified to do certain things in 40k because historically 40k grognards have been incredibly unpleasant over certain moves and stories. I think most Space Marine players would be fine with their guys taking an actual L every now and then, especially vs a worthy threat. But GW doesn't feel confident in doing it.
AoS is a much better setting IMO. They've done some really awesome things with it both in terms of models and story which are the benefits of a clean slate I guess. 40k has too much stuff that is "set in stone" as it were and they aren't going to risk resetting their main cash flow even if it might improve the background. I like the Primaris but the campaign books have been pretty bad overall for story. Vigilus was pretty cool and I enjoyed it right up until the part where the Eldar sacrificed a very rare and important ship to damage the Vengeful Spirit a bit so Abaddon wouldn't mulch Calgar.
Gert wrote: AoS is a much better setting IMO. They've done some really awesome things with it both in terms of models and story which are the benefits of a clean slate I guess. 40k has too much stuff that is "set in stone" as it were and they aren't going to risk resetting their main cash flow even if it might improve the background. I like the Primaris but the campaign books have been pretty bad overall for story. Vigilus was pretty cool and I enjoyed it right up until the part where the Eldar sacrificed a very rare and important ship to damage the Vengeful Spirit a bit so Abaddon wouldn't mulch Calgar.
I find myself actually being driven towards AoS (and other hobbies besides) by all of the Space Marine bs.
If it weren't for Sisters of Battle, I'd probably have dropped out of 40k entirely by now.
waefre_1 wrote: What really gets me is how no one is picking up on the greatest flaw of that whole gakshow:
Ghaz is Old Man Yarrick's to kill. YARRICK. Not some barely civilized wolf-man in cower armor.
Aye, what should have really happened was Ragnar gets clobbered and Yarrick comes in to bust out some IG whuppass, routing the Orks and forcing Ghaz to withdraw and come back some other day.
But then you would have had a regular human saving a space marine, and you can't have that! It would detract from their protagonism.
I haven't frequented these forums in some time & am currently not in the 40k scene but this thread has been refreshing. I've argued for years about the direction 40k is heading, largely to deaf ears. Its great to see so many finally coming around. The discussion revolving around Ghazzy & Ragnar is a perfect example. At no point can SM ever lose & they will continue to receive endless support & new models at the expense of the entire setting. What a wonder it would have been for a xenos player to actually have their flag bearer have a brief victory. Alas no one can have nice things except SM players. Hell, most IG regiments haven't seen new infantry models in 20+ years & no a handful of special characters redone does not make up for decades without support. I'll not carry on any further as GW doesn't care & hasn't since around 3rd edition. To all you non space marine players, carry on the torch & maybe someday your prayers will be heard.
Commissar Benny wrote: I haven't frequented these forums in some time & am currently not in the 40k scene but this thread has been refreshing. I've argued for years about the direction 40k is heading, largely to deaf ears. Its great to see so many finally coming around. The discussion revolving around Ghazzy & Ragnar is a perfect example. At no point can SM ever lose & they will continue to receive endless support & new models at the expense of the entire setting. What a wonder it would have been for a xenos player to actually have their flag bearer have a brief victory. Alas no one can have nice things except SM players. Hell, most IG regiments haven't seen new infantry models in 20+ years & no a handful of special characters redone does not make up for decades without support. I'll not carry on any further as GW doesn't care & hasn't since around 3rd edition. To all you non space marine players, carry on the torch & maybe someday your prayers will be heard.
Eh...i've had the rules leaks for it for a while, but I just got my Drukhari codex today as my FLGS was moving and just opened up shop, and reading through the lore section was just...depressing. There's a photograph of the one single new miniature that got released with the book on seemingly every single page showing models, but otherwise it's the exact same studio models they've had in the images since fifth edition. All the fluff is about the many many many characters who no longer exist in the game...like, here's the section on the Poisoned Tongue, lady malys sounds cool, oh neat, she survived the faked death of the other dude who runs the whole faction who also doesn't have a model or rules. Oh sweet an archon who rose to prominance from being a Reaver jetbike arena champion and now has this whole flying kabal....oh wow another archon who's like a renegade, and rolls with the Hellions instead of the rest of the nobles, and he's like a skyboard pirate...man, sure am glad that every archon is just a dude on foot with a sword and a pistol and that's it, that's all of them ever, you wanna represent the cunning lady malys, the renegade baron sathonyx, the living muse adsrubael vect, or that cool reaver dude that's your one statline, what kind of sword and pistol do you want?
Reading the fluff developments its like the drukhari are moving at an absolute molasses pace. The storyline has moved forward four hundred frickin' years, and what have we resolved since the last codex?
Well, let's see, there's Lelith whose been following Yvraine around. She's...still doing that I guess, there's a little blurb that's like 'is she doing it to try and be immortal? does she just want to...fight...the god...of death? Is there...something else? Tune in next edition to maybe find out?' All the other named characters, they still exist. Well, not in the GAME, but like, you know. The gangs all here. And Urien Rakarth wanted to get primaris space marines in the last codex....because he wants a collection. He wants one primaris space marine from every chapter, just, to have. It's made explicitly clear that he just likes seeing all the degradation and mutation that's happened because he likes to chuckle at the emperors shoddy handiwork. Didn't want them for anything in particular, just kind of to put them on a shelf or use them as furniture or something.
That's it! That's the development we have for your faction. I didn't read the charadon book, because I am not supporting any GW cashgrab book content as a rule, but I doubt it has anything else of interest.
BlackoCatto wrote: Was there at all a new model for Drukhari beyond a bad Lelith remake of an exsisting?
haha, nope, not a one. But don't worry, we've got that awfully painted studio job of the new lelith on every other page. Plus, an added section in her lore entry about how she's the undisputed master of every single one of the interesting and esoteric wych arena weapons whoopsiedoodles we forgot to let her take any of those sorryyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
That's it! That's the development we have for your faction. I didn't read the charadon book, because I am not supporting any GW cashgrab book content as a rule, but I doubt it has anything else of interest.
Naw- there's way more than that in the dex. We now know 12 territory types that one can encounter in Commorragh and how each benefits the Lord who controls it, and we have a rather elegant set of rules for actually fighting through the conflict riven power struggles of Commorragh, rather than just a few pages of fluff about it. We have our Master HQ's and favoured retinues back, and the new realspace rules do a far better job of bringing the fluff to the table than the 8th rules do, and prior to 8th, the dexes were written in such a way that none of the fluff had any impact on the way the army fights- like "Assassination attempts are everywhere; these people advance in society by killing and extorting each other for personal gain... but if you want to build an army of them, just follow the exact same rules as any other faction that is assembling an army, because this system of assassination and distrust has no impact at all on who the army fights." And as I mentioned, 8th DIDN'T get it right, but it was the first edition to try. Ninth perfected what the started in 8th- all of the petty politics and internal strife now actually impact the mechanics in a way they never have.
It is true that the background pages in new dexes are far more limited, and no, I'm not particularly happy about that; it's also true that we didn't get any models beyond Lelith, and I'm not happy about that either.
I am hopeful that there will be an Aeldari renaissance later this edition. We all know how much the CWE need a range refresh, and we all know that Ynarri, like it or not, are essentially linked to any developments for the Eldar. Releasing boxed sets and campaign supports would be essential to promote a release of that magnitude, and I'm hoping that when it comes, it will include not just CWE, but a few additional releases for other Eldar. I have no evidence- this is pure speculation and wishful thinking, but it doesn't seem like it's impossible, given the types of things we've seen for Sisters and the things we are starting to see for Orks.
You've probably seen the leaks of the Cult of Strife content from the Book of Rust; it isn't bad, but I think GW specifically designed the content in Charadon to be content that is "Nice to Have" as opposed to "Need to Have," and further, I believe they did that because of the community complaints about PA, whose updates to many armies were essential.
Some are going to like campaign resources, some aren't. I posted in another thread a few days ago to provide a breakdown of how all the Charadon resources can be used together, and I will likely update it once I see the Chardon content from this month's Dwarf. I'm trying to direct link the post- never done that before so let's see if this works:
I love the rules content in the codex, I also really like the art style shift personally, I know it's not for everyone but I absolutely adore how alien the dark eldar are shown to look as opposed to older artwork where they were basically just fantasy dark elves.
My only complaint about the art is that I wish I got to see more about how these weird, alien dark eldar look in comparison to other 40k races or in the context of the 40k setting. the new codex massively shifted away from showing basically just concept art of the models (which is a very good thing) but they shifted to showing portraits, or just pictures of a single person rather than showing them in the context of a world.
Overall I'd say:
Rules: A (A+ would be if they applied this standard of rules writing to the old 'wide sprawling wargame with tons of options' vibe that is sadly seeming to be dying off)
Crusade content: B+ (I like it conceptually I just wish there was more of it)
Art: B (massive improvement from the early 8th cartoony/showing only the models exactly as they are posed in the new sculpts and of the gakky gakky paper doll things they used to use to show color schemes, but still not enough shots of the drukhari actually in the world of the game)
Fluff: F.
They discontinued every Drukhari character model: THAT is their opportunity to do really crazy stuff with their fluff! They're not shackled to models anymore - fething kill vect, introduce a huge power struggle to the dark eldar as everyone vies to become the new top dog, then use that as a springboard to release new named character models and the new crusade content - could YOUR archon be the new supreme leader of the dark city? But nope, all the fluff is still about this dumb marty stu whos the best at everything and ISNT EVEN IN THE FREAKING GAME still.
FrozenDwarf wrote: In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I can go to any LGS here and I will find 40K and AoS. Next most popular is X-Wing followed by Star Wars Legion. Infinity is also close up in there, but not quite as much. When games are being played, invariably there is a 40K game going on, even when there's a tournament or similar event of another game going on.
My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing: For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! they joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
Unit1126PLL wrote: My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! the joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
Recently i bought a shovel for my garden and I remarked to my partner that this fairly high quality, well made stainless steel shovel cost exactly as much as one single monopose plastic howling banshee miniature from GW.
FrozenDwarf wrote: Just find a different game.
When you get a one track mind, you shut yourself off to other gaming experiences.
In the grand mini world, GW is just a small pebble. New games is just a mouseclick away.
Yes, sadly the groups for them,.... not so much often.
It is hard as Hell to get people in my area to play something not 40k.
since 6/7th we don't have that issue anymore, GW lost it's defacto monopoly through it's blunders. Still i member when the scene locally wasn't as diverse..
I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
it does not matter if you are cheaper with better quality if the PR Department of the other company puts more money into advertising per month than your whole company is making in years
but more seriously, GW is doing a fantastic job about making it "the Warhammer Hobby" (or Games Workshop Hobby) with everything going down to the Wargaming Hobby & Miniature Painting Hobby = Warhammer and, there is nothing else
and they are not focusing on expanding the community, their focus is that new people interested to the hobby make the first contact with it with a GW game, GW paints and GW models
getting used to the price and style of the models and no matter of they stay or not the important part is that their first wargaming purchase is a GW 2 player Starter Set (as those that are drop out won't touch another wargame very soon but go for something different while the others stay with GW)
Unit1126PLL wrote: My local group started a World War 2 game called Chain of Command. It's 28mm. I wanted to play Soviets, so I picked up some Soviets. I had a bazillion options, from super-cheap-and-bad to nice plastics to great metals and resins to everything in between. I found an acceptable mix of "price" and "quality" that I liked, and smooth as silk.
Just a story about pricing:
For $90 CAD (about 70-75 USD) I got 3 resin, very highly detailed, very fun to paint SU-152 assault guns. They came with every possible option I could ever want to play in the game (including a main-body swap for the ISU-152 from later in the war, etc). as well as pre-cleaned and ready to build and paint with no further work.
I went to pick up some stuff at the FLGS and saw the new Slaanesh minis. For $60, I could've gotten 5 Myrmidesh Painbringers for AOS. 5. 5 infantry size models for $10 less than 3 Leman-Russ-sized high-detailed resin minis.
The mind boggles. How far will GW's inertia take it?
Not to mention how incomparably much better the rules are.
LOL, I know right?
I've got a similar absurd price story that highlights that something is out of wack....
So, it was early Nov. 2020. I'm in Walmart picking up some dog food. Now WM had been running different weekly Black Friday Thanksgiving sales since like mid-Oct. I turn a corner of an aisle & pass a stackout of 60" 4g/HD smart TVs with all the bells & whistles. Price: $185 (now I've never heard of the particular brand, so if I plug one of these in it might well just melt, but...)
Once done at WM I stop through the FLGS a few miles down the road. This time I actually am Christmas shopping for others.
The guys at the counter are just unpacking their GW delivery. They show me the newly arrived AS Mega-Gargant. Only $200! they joke.
WTF???
A wall sized TV (of questionable quality): $185
A single plastic 6"(?) giant model by GW: $200
Meanwhile Mantic sells a very nice 6" plastic giant for about $40.....
What is out of whack?
Do those producers have:
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
It's also quite silly to ignore the economies of scale between a TV and a plastic miniature.
"I'm not having fun with Warhammer and dislike XYZ"
"Well, try this other game. It's cheaper with better rules and fixes all the things you dislike."
"Oh, no thanks, I'd rather play Warhammer. Their PR department is better."
translate as PR department to "but the other game does not have such high quality plastic minis", "the background is not as deep as Warhammer", "there are not as many different factions", "Warhammer is as balanced as such a big game can be and perfect balance is impossible", "I will never find other people playing this game", "I don't want to play this game because I don't like the models", "I want to play Space Marines as Space Marines but the other game does not have specific rules for my Space Marines" and so on
problem is when people complain about Warhammer not being fun and not liking specific things, they don't want a game from a different company, they want GW to make a better Warhammer
Even if they switch the game, they want the other game to become Warhammer and will always come back the original as soon as GW promise a change
the GW PR departmant made sure that there is no other game as good as Warhammer so you don't even need to try to find one, and if you find one there will be no players the models are ugly and the rules will have limited amount of different factions
no matter 1 faction in Chain of Command offer more different ways to play than all factions in 40k together, that there are much better and cheaper models out there than the 20 year old plastics you have to deal with in 40k, and much more players if you just look outside the GW store
"I'm not having fun with Warhammer and dislike XYZ"
"Well, try this other game. It's cheaper with better rules and fixes all the things you dislike."
"Oh, no thanks, I'd rather play Warhammer. Their PR department is better."
translate as PR department to "but the other game does not have such high quality plastic minis", "the background is not as deep as Warhammer", "there are not as many different factions", "Warhammer is as balanced as such a big game can be and perfect balance is impossible", "I will never find other people playing this game", "I don't want to play this game because I don't like the models", "I want to play Space Marines as Space Marines but the other game does not have specific rules for my Space Marines" and so on
problem is when people complain about Warhammer not being fun and not liking specific things, they don't want a game from a different company, they want GW to make a better Warhammer Even if they switch the game, they want the other game to become Warhammer and will always come back the original as soon as GW promise a change
the GW PR departmant made sure that there is no other game as good as Warhammer so you don't even need to try to find one, and if you find one there will be no players the models are ugly and the rules will have limited amount of different factions no matter 1 faction in Chain of Command offer more different ways to play than all factions in 40k together, that there are much better and cheaper models out there than the 20 year old plastics you have to deal with in 40k, and much more players if you just look outside the GW store
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
this for sure, I still can't get fully behind it that people at least recognize that there is something else as I would accept that not finding a groups is an issue
but than I see that people that are deep in The 9th Age are talking similar about Kings of War and Age of Sigmar as some people playing Warhammer doing about other games
so I think this is more of an issue with the people and that GW attracts and grows some special attitude
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
You know TV's are basically simple computers now and involve wifi cards and processor chips now right? Just because Toshiba doesn't make a magazine or a dedicated Toshiba TV Shop doesn't mean they ONLY need to funnel profits into producing and shipping TVs. Hell, their advertising budget is probably higher then GWs annual revenue.
At the end of the day, personal preference and, y'know, actually having people to play with is a big deal.
A friend recently got into the Fallout miniatures game and wanted everyone to get into it. The models looked... decent, compared to many others out there. I've played the Fallout games and such, but when I look at it I just see another box that's going to take up space in an already cramped hobby room.
I've also tried to get people into other miniatures games, and a lot of the excuses are the same. There's a bit of 'sunk cost' when it comes to warhammer. People have already put so much money and time into it that they don't want to spend more money and time learning a new system.
With friends that haven't touched wargaming at all, they're either going to be open to it because they're nerds like me or are not going to be open to it because they aren't nerds. That's really what it boils down to. I've got a nerdy friend that's all into VR and such, but doesn't want to sink money into wargaming because he knows full well what a time and money sink it is.
I don't really think it's a point that needs to be argued to death (like so many other points in this thread). Either you're going to pick up a different game system or you're not. No voice on the internet is going to change your mind. You'll get into it if it's interesting enough and you think you can convince your friends to join you.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
Yep. Thinks the only cost is the plastic, and calculates price comparisons based on that.
The machine that prints the boxes is the same machine that prints hundreds of thousands of other products as well, so the infrastructure costs for printing are small, and further offset by printing cereal boxes in addition to 40k products, and probably dozens if not hundreds of other products as well.
By contrast, every single sprue requires its own mold. I'm not enough of an expert on casting processes, but another Dakkanaught once explained that the molds for plastics are orders of magnitude more expensive than resin molds because every component on each sprue requires its own injector, where resin sprues only require a handful of injectors to do the entire sprue. And then you take a look at how many sprues exist in 40k's current catalogue and compare it to any other game, and it's just... Really not that much of a contest.
And then you realize there are similar number of sprues for AoS!
I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
WarmaHordes has 9 major factions, 4 minor factions, and the 2 merc and minion factions.
Each of the major factions has about 4 different Themes on their own, with a couple more that are linked to Mercs or Minions.
Mercs is probably the most extensive in numbers, especially if you count the Riot Quest solo models, however they are also the most restrictive in play having one group that can only be played in one Theme, and very few other models can be played in that Theme (Cephalyx in Operating Theater).
However, there are a lot of kits which could be scrunched up in to one like a lot of GW kits are and haven't been yet.
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
Yep. Thinks the only cost is the plastic, and calculates price comparisons based on that.
The machine that prints the boxes is the same machine that prints hundreds of thousands of other products as well, so the infrastructure costs for printing are small, and further offset by printing cereal boxes in addition to 40k products, and probably dozens if not hundreds of other products as well.
well if you go down that way, the machine that makes the sprues is the same that makes all other sprues
a designer, photographer, painter (for the models on the picture), translator etc.
but the important part is, the cardboard is done externally and not inside GW as far as we know, this is why it is more expensive
it does not matter how many products that machine makes, it does not belong to GW and they have to pay for using it
NinthMusketeer wrote: Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
you can always play 40k with that minis or any other modern/alternative SciFi game
of course you can by GW models that are made to look similar to WW2 Soviets instead and use them only in 1 setting for 1 game
yet the problem that you pay too much for GW minis that you want is a different one as this will happen no matter what game you are playing
PenitentJake wrote: ...I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
Infinity has nine "main" factions (depending on how you define the Tohaa/Spiral Corps split), with ~40-50 different unique profiles each and several individual sculpts with different equipment per profile, not counting cross-faction mercenaries and named characters. They've moved their release model to fewer blisters and more multi-model kits because the SKU bloat was getting out of control.
Warmachine/Hordes has eleven "main" factions (counting mercenaries/minions collectively) and four smaller limited-release factions; main factions have ~100 unique cards and mini-factions have ~40, but in practice packaging attachments with units and 'beast/'jack dual-kits probably drops that to ~70 and ~25 unique kits.
and still the colored cardboard box for the models cost GW more than the sprues inside
Misses the forest for the trees.
You know TV's are basically simple computers now and involve wifi cards and processor chips now right? Just because Toshiba doesn't make a magazine or a dedicated Toshiba TV Shop doesn't mean they ONLY need to funnel profits into producing and shipping TVs. Hell, their advertising budget is probably higher then GWs annual revenue.
Most panels, chips etc in TVs are sourced. As in the company doesn't make them and many TVs have similar parts.
We're talking 250 million tvs a year. How many people own a TV? How many own miniatures? That difference is the economy of scale.
Are TVs made on the UK or where labor is cheap? Do TVs have their own stores to sell product?
but the important part is, the cardboard is done externally and not inside GW as far as we know, this is why it is more expensive
it does not matter how many products that machine makes, it does not belong to GW and they have to pay for using it
That's the forest I missed for the trees. Very good point.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
A lot of GWs success at this point is inertia, simple as that. It has lasted and has a large enough base sunk cost takes hold and people will keep rolling on no matter what. They can destroy their own game and tried like hell to do so in 7th but you can't get people as easily to branch out, even if they love the models and/or the rules if they feel there will be no one or very few to play with/against. That is the long and short of it.
1) brick and mortar stores?
2) a monthly magazine?
3) models that require artistic talent to produce?
4) their own onshore production facility or do they run it out of china?
5) models that are highly detailed and require complex overlapping shapes?
It's also quite silly to ignore the economies of scale between a TV and a plastic miniature.
Why do I, as a consumer, care about any of that stuff? Those are all possible internal justifications for why the price might be high but other than the highly detailed part of point 5 they're not things that really affect my purchasing decisions directly. I'm not looking at buying a box of Necron Warriors and thinking to myself "this seems expensive but it will at least help GW keep their brick and mortar stores open". If a company wants to spend their money giving every employee an office the size of my house and charge accordingly, that's cool, but the only thing that matters is how much they're charging me, not how they're justifying the costs. I don't read WD and I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area. If both disappeared overnight the effect on me would be approximately zero. Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply. GW's move to more detailed models also hasn't come without its pitfalls. Some of their models are now really annoying to put together because of it and my build time for a unit has gone up considerably since they moved away from having interchangeable parts. That's not a net benefit to me.
PenitentJake wrote:
I don't collect any other wargames, though I have played many, so I don't have the best starting point to do the research, nor the interest to do it, but of the "competition" to gw, I'm curious to see what the numbers look like if you compare number of factions and number of unique models in the current range. How many Infinity kits are there? How many War Machine kits are there?
(If I recall, the War Machine range actually is pretty extensive, or was the last time I checked, so it might be close)
That seems a weird way to compare things. I think one of the problems 40k has is too many factions and too many units. I think pretty much all other games have fewer factions and unique models than GW does but that's not an indicator of quality. As long as the game has enough factions and kits to give you variety and meaningful choice that's enough. Many other games have superior balance to 40k, for example, which means even with fewer factions and models the variety you see on the tabletop is often much greater.
The only models that have a look of being a pain to build/paint, at least IMO, are the centrepiece leaders GW has done recently i.e. the Silent King, Teclis, Mortarion. The majority of an army is still pretty basic stuff if not more so since ETB kits became common. If all of my troops are basic/boring but the elite and character units are more impressive then I don't see an issue with that.
As for interchangeable parts, the majority of units still have this. I think the only armies that struggle are Nids and 'Crons because by definition they are just hordes of copied bodies. A lot of kits are interchangeable with things outside of their faction or even with AoS kits like most of the Human scale kits (Skitarri, GSC, Freeguild, Guardsmen, some AoS elves).
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
If you're not interested in World War 2, I get that. Chain of Command is more an example than anything else though, and I still find it shocking that there is no wargame setting out there that has your attention (or anyone else's). Is there some essence of 40k that makes it way better than any other of the myriad wargame settings that are out there?
The "no community" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've bootstrapped 3 games in my club now just by finding them and showing how good and fun they were. The number of players varies (from like 6 to 20) across the 3 games, but we went from zero local players to at least 6 in all cases. The only reason there's "no community" is people don't build the community, and the reason they don't start building the community is "there's no community". All it takes is one World War 2 nerd in the area and a fun toy displayed on your desk (I have a Soviet T-35 on my desk at work and netted myself 2 CoC players that way).
The minis is a whole 'nother discussion, but again, is there no setting nor set of minis that look agreeable outside GW? Citadel is cutting edge in its casting and sculpting, but it's not so far ahead of some other efforts as to make their sculpts totally bad. Some 3rd party manufacturers are pretty damn cool, even when they copy emulate GW's designs/concepts. Plus, there are even some games you can play withGW minis that aren't GW themselves, though I think you'd be overpaying at that point.
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
I know, that's a shocking choice is what I'm saying. It's not like World War 2 minis have less hobbying (Though they can if you want, there's a whole gamut of mini manufacturers and requirements). The tabletop time thing is, again, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone said "someone else has to play the game first" then no one would ever play any games. I do recognize that becoming a community leader is difficult, though, so no worries.
Maybe it's COVID keeping me from playing, but if all I'm doing is building and painting the models, I get WAY more value and fun out of World War 2 minis than GW minis, because you get so many for so cheap and they're still excellent quality.
Why do I, as a consumer, care about any of that stuff? Those are all possible internal justifications for why the price might be high but other than the highly detailed part of point 5 they're not things that really affect my purchasing decisions directly. I'm not looking at buying a box of Necron Warriors and thinking to myself "this seems expensive but it will at least help GW keep their brick and mortar stores open". If a company wants to spend their money giving every employee an office the size of my house and charge accordingly, that's cool, but the only thing that matters is how much they're charging me, not how they're justifying the costs. I don't read WD and I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area. If both disappeared overnight the effect on me would be approximately zero. Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply. GW's move to more detailed models also hasn't come without its pitfalls. Some of their models are now really annoying to put together because of it and my build time for a unit has gone up considerably since they moved away from having interchangeable parts. That's not a net benefit to me.
You shouldn't care. My point is purely in regards to why someone might think GW pricing is off the wall.
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
I only ever go into my local GW store if I need paint right now, and only then because it's more conveniently located than the other FLGS in the area.
That right there is why GW stores exist. The hobby as we know it would be exposed to fewer people as FLGS tend to be off the beaten path.
Other models require artistic talent to produce yet other manufacturers produce them much more cheaply.
Because they bear none of the other costs. There's whole swaths of miniature makers that depend on GW existing.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
If you're not interested in World War 2, I get that. Chain of Command is more an example than anything else though, and I still find it shocking that there is no wargame setting out there that has your attention (or anyone else's). Is there some essence of 40k that makes it way better than any other of the myriad wargame settings that are out there?
The "no community" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've bootstrapped 3 games in my club now just by finding them and showing how good and fun they were. The number of players varies (from like 6 to 20) across the 3 games, but we went from zero local players to at least 6 in all cases. The only reason there's "no community" is people don't build the community, and the reason they don't start building the community is "there's no community". All it takes is one World War 2 nerd in the area and a fun toy displayed on your desk (I have a Soviet T-35 on my desk at work and netted myself 2 CoC players that way).
The minis is a whole 'nother discussion, but again, is there no setting nor set of minis that look agreeable outside GW? Citadel is cutting edge in its casting and sculpting, but it's not so far ahead of some other efforts as to make their sculpts totally bad. Some 3rd party manufacturers are pretty damn cool, even when they copy emulate GW's designs/concepts. Plus, there are even some games you can play withGW minis that aren't GW themselves, though I think you'd be overpaying at that point.
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
I know, that's a shocking choice is what I'm saying. It's not like World War 2 minis have less hobbying (Though they can if you want, there's a whole gamut of mini manufacturers and requirements). The tabletop time thing is, again, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone said "someone else has to play the game first" then no one would ever play any games. I do recognize that becoming a community leader is difficult, though, so no worries.
Maybe it's COVID keeping me from playing, but if all I'm doing is building and painting the models, I get WAY more value and fun out of World War 2 minis than GW minis, because you get so many for so cheap and they're still excellent quality.
It's good that you get way more value and fun out of WW2 minis. Did you sell your Baneblades?
I restarted the local Flames of War and Team Yankee scene at my FLGS when I moved back circa 2014 (military so I move around - the local scene had died out). Lent out armies, ran tournies etc. Didn't love 4th Ed FOW, and came back to 40K with 8th. Still play FOW and TY from time to time, but the group has enough members now that it can roll on without me pushing. I still prefer to spend my time (both hobby and tabletop) and money on 40K. Weird eh? I bought those Bladeguard with my own free will. Quite happy with them.
How many Mk IVs, T34s, T72s and Leopards do I really need (in a variety of scales as well..)? If I walk away from 40K those Leopards will still be there waiting for me. Plus I use them as training aids with my junior officers.
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
Definitely a strawman. How are GW's one-man stores/UK manufacturing/WD upping the quality of their product?
It isn't a strawman. I didn't say those things upped the quality - or at least that was my intent so apologies if I worded it wrong. Those things contribute to the cost. A strawman is someone calling out a 28mm historical that is cheaper and completely ignoring the quality difference and other cost considerations.
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
Definitely a strawman. How are GW's one-man stores/UK manufacturing/WD upping the quality of their product?
It isn't a strawman. I didn't say those things upped the quality - or at least that was my intent so apologies if I worded it wrong. Those things contribute to the cost. A strawman is someone calling out a 28mm historical that is cheaper and completely ignoring the quality difference and other cost considerations.
At a certain point, I'll take an almost undeniably higher quality game experience, and you can keep the...admittedly higher quality graphic design on box art and in codexes.
It's good that you get way more value and fun out of WW2 minis. Did you sell your Baneblades?
I restarted the local Flames of War and Team Yankee scene at my FLGS when I moved back circa 2014 (military so I move around - the local scene had died out). Lent out armies, ran tournies etc. Didn't love 4th Ed FOW, and came back to 40K with 8th. Still play FOW and TY from time to time, but the group has enough members now that it can roll on without me pushing. I still prefer to spend my time (both hobby and tabletop) and money on 40K. Weird eh? I bought those Bladeguard with my own free will. Quite happy with them.
How many Mk IVs, T34s, T72s and Leopards do I really need (in a variety of scales as well..)? If I walk away from 40K those Leopards will still be there waiting for me. Plus I use them as training aids with my junior officers.
I did not sell my Baneblades, though I've only used them for apocalypse recently (so they're effectively shelved) because of how bad the 40k rules are for superheavies and superheavy detachments right now.
I haven't bought nearly as much GW lately though, because of the price. And it's not that weird to go back and forth from FOW/TY to 40k, as their rule-sets are very similar. I understand what you're saying about value or whatever, spend your money as you wish.
But 5 28 (or 32mm) infantry for $60 is asking lot, and I'll continue to be shocked that people think it isn't.
Perhaps you as a customer don't care about quality. Some cheaper options might be more appealing to you. That doesn't mean GW is grossly overpriced.
Definitely a strawman. How are GW's one-man stores/UK manufacturing/WD upping the quality of their product?
It isn't a strawman. I didn't say those things upped the quality - or at least that was my intent so apologies if I worded it wrong. Those things contribute to the cost. A strawman is someone calling out a 28mm historical that is cheaper and completely ignoring the quality difference and other cost considerations.
The point you don't seem to be getting is those other cost considerations are irrelevant to me, the person buying the models. I understand GW has costs other companies do not have, but they also have economies of scale other companies don't have. The internal machinations of the company making the stuff I'm buying is not relevant to the value proposition. I care about 2 things if we ignore the quality of the game for a moment:
1. The absolute value. Is £20+ too much for a single plastic character model? I happen to think so, and haven't bought a GW character at retail in...probably over a decade now.
2. The relative value. Can I get similar models for a cheaper price elsewhere? Do they look as good? If not, how much am I willing to trade quality for price?
Literally none of the other factors you listed on the previous page concern me so there are no other cost considerations. Are you suggesting I should be OK paying more for a given box of models because GW produces WD - a magazine they charge for? If so, why? If not, why bring it up as a cost consideration?
See, I think that Warhammer 40k is a super fun game, and a great hobby with all the like, modeling and stuff. But I think one of the biggest issues, mostly with the fluff but also with the gameplay, is that it's really easy to overthink it. There is a lot to unpack and if you unpack it all at once, I think, it can end up pretty unfun.
Now for things like model prices and such, sure, it might be better in other places and I think that is worth overthinking because it can save money on a fun hobby. But when it comes to gameplay and lore, it just feels a lot like some of you are trying to not have fun. Sorry if that's rude.
I think that the Start Collecting boxes and some of the new Combat Patrols have been excellent value for money both as a starting point and force additions. For example, the Deathwatch CP comes with a Primaris Lt, Apothecary, 10 Intercessors, 3 Aggressors, and 2 Deathwatch upgrade sprues. For £85 it's not bad and the savings are pretty good. The Blood Angels CP, less so. The savings stay roughly the same but buying more than one is a bad choice, nobody wants 2 Librarians and 2 hover Rhinos.
Daedalus81 wrote: calling out a 28mm historical that is cheaper and completely ignoring the quality difference and other cost considerations.
yeah, you get better quality for less, so there must be a reason why GW is worse but sells at a higher price
And that reason is inertia (the "people are guaranteed to get a game with it" thing).
Other people say it's more fun than other wargames, but it makes me doubt how many other wargames they've genuinely tried out of the gazillion that are out there. 40k is fun, don't get me wrong. But I don't know if it's $60 for 5 28mm infantry fun. I guess for other people it is.
I think most of the fun in 40K is just how ridiculous it is. It is something you can play and not take seriously and joke with the people you are playing with.
Slipspace wrote: The point you don't seem to be getting is those other cost considerations are irrelevant to me, the person buying the models. I understand GW has costs other companies do not have, but they also have economies of scale other companies don't have. The internal machinations of the company making the stuff I'm buying is not relevant to the value proposition. I care about 2 things if we ignore the quality of the game for a moment:
1. The absolute value. Is £20+ too much for a single plastic character model? I happen to think so, and haven't bought a GW character at retail in...probably over a decade now.
2. The relative value. Can I get similar models for a cheaper price elsewhere? Do they look as good? If not, how much am I willing to trade quality for price?
Literally none of the other factors you listed on the previous page concern me so there are no other cost considerations. Are you suggesting I should be OK paying more for a given box of models because GW produces WD - a magazine they charge for? If so, why? If not, why bring it up as a cost consideration?
No, I get it. And it's fine. I just disagree with the shocked pikachu face over pricing.
Should you be ok paying more for models produced locally? Personally, I think so. It's more green ( UK produces more energy from renewables, less shipping ). It pays people in the country and keeps the tax dollars there. You're certainly free to disagree though. I'm no isolationist, but having more industry for jobs isn't always a terrible thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: yeah, you get better quality for less, so there must be a reason why GW is worse but sells at a higher price
This GW giant was brought up earlier. One of these is $40. One is a kit that makes 3 variants and is $190 ( $166 on eBay ). To me there is no way I would waste $40 on the mantic giant even if I can't swing the GW one right now.
Others may feel differently. That's fine, but I find there is little way to claim GW has the inferior model.
Charistoph wrote: I think most of the fun in 40K is just how ridiculous it is. It is something you can play and not take seriously and joke with the people you are playing with.
Right, it has never been anything but.
If you're taking the game of 40k seriously....all I have to ask is why?
Charistoph wrote: I think most of the fun in 40K is just how ridiculous it is. It is something you can play and not take seriously and joke with the people you are playing with.
Right, it has never been anything but.
If you're taking the game of 40k seriously....all I have to ask is why?
There is some truth in that.
But charging £32 for 5 28mm infantry kinda makes it serious in terms of Collection/financial commitements/ budgeting..
This GW giant was brought up earlier. One of these is $40. One is a kit that makes 3 variants and is $190 ( $166 on eBay ). To me there is no way I would waste $40 on the mantic giant even if I can't swing the GW one right now.
Others may feel differently. That's fine, but I find there is little way to claim GW has the inferior model.
Spoiler:
1 kit for 150€ that makes 3 monopose models, or 1 kit for 35€ that is pos-eable with additional bits and add 30€ more for more bits to make 3 different models
if you are a collector, might be worth it, for gaming we are not talking about model quality alone but the game and paying 450€ were the only option for variation is to actually play 3 different units (as otherwise I have 3 times the same model) when I can get away with 105€ and the option to have 3 different models although I use the same unit 3 times
if we are talking about collections, painting and display, 1 Mega Gargant for 150 is ok if you like the model
but as a game were I pay premium price for medicore rules and need several of those I say Mantic offers the better quality here
I mean, it's all well and good to not take 40k seriously, but it's actually WAY easier in my experience to not take another game seriously than it is to not take 40k seriously.
Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game? "Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?" You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players), and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.
I would say discussing what kind of game someone wants to play is a good thing. If I know before I start that my opponent is expecting a serious WAAC environment then I doubt I'd go forward because I wouldn't enjoy that game. Better to get an experience both will enjoy rather than just one. Of course, if people aren't comfortable in social settings, which I know can be an issue, then this might not be preferable. But TBH I've found it's very rare that a tournament-style player is likely to be found at a pick-up game in a local store, be it GW or FLGS.
This GW giant was brought up earlier. One of these is $40. One is a kit that makes 3 variants and is $190 ( $166 on eBay ). To me there is no way I would waste $40 on the mantic giant even if I can't swing the GW one right now.
Others may feel differently. That's fine, but I find there is little way to claim GW has the inferior model.
Spoiler:
1 kit for 150€ that makes 3 monopose models, or 1 kit for 35€ that is pos-eable with additional bits and add 30€ more for more bits to make 3 different models
if you are a collector, might be worth it, for gaming we are not talking about model quality alone but the game and paying 450€ were the only option for variation is to actually play 3 different units (as otherwise I have 3 times the same model) when I can get away with 105€ and the option to have 3 different models although I use the same unit 3 times
if we are talking about collections, painting and display, 1 Mega Gargant for 150 is ok if you like the model
but as a game were I pay premium price for medicore rules and need several of those I say Mantic offers the better quality here
I dunno, I've seen a lot of variety out of the Mega-gargant kit...
I can't say that I realized the Mantic Giant was pose-able or had additional bits, but then again I haven't seen too much of them online. I've seen more variety out of Para Bellum's Jotnar but that may very well be conversion work.
1 kit for 150€ that makes 3 monopose models, or 1 kit for 35€ that is pos-eable with additional bits and add 30€ more for more bits to make 3 different models
if you are a collector, might be worth it, for gaming we are not talking about model quality alone but the game and paying 450€ were the only option for variation is to actually play 3 different units (as otherwise I have 3 times the same model) when I can get away with 105€ and the option to have 3 different models although I use the same unit 3 times
if we are talking about collections, painting and display, 1 Mega Gargant for 150 is ok if you like the model
but as a game were I pay premium price for medicore rules and need several of those I say Mantic offers the better quality here
I think you'd likely only ever have one of those as it encompasses all of your allied points as well as 1/4 the army.
Quality of game is quite a subjective term especially depending on what you're looking for. Rolling out a historical as a "better game" has zero sway on my decision making, because I'm not interested in historicals right now.
I'd also imagine you'd find a lot more flaws in a game were there to be as large of a community playing and discussing those games. You and a handful of people at the shop aren't going to quite care to find flaws in a game you're enjoying.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I mean, it's all well and good to not take 40k seriously, but it's actually WAY easier in my experience to not take another game seriously than it is to not take 40k seriously.
Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game?
"Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?" You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players), and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.
I've actually had that discussion with WMH, but that's often unusual because it has become the predominate assumption that there is no game besides the competitive. At one LGS, one of the guys literally stated, "We play only Steamroller here." Gave me the shivers.
And I've had 40K players in the same area act the same way, in which if the game was not set up with the next tournament rules in mind, then it was a no go, and they assumed that this would be the "normal" way to play.
I can't say that I realized the Mantic Giant was pose-able or had additional bits, but then again I haven't seen too much of them online. I've seen more variety out of Para Bellum's Jotnar but that may very well be conversion work.
It's posable in the sense that you can rotate the waist and arms and that's about it.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I mean, it's all well and good to not take 40k seriously, but it's actually WAY easier in my experience to not take another game seriously than it is to not take 40k seriously.
Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game?
"Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?" You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players), and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.
Right. My point is, though, that other games don't require this level of discussion, precisely because people don't take them as seriously typically. To say "40k is fun because it isn't taken seriously" is evidently false, as some people DO take it seriously. Very seriously.
Charistoph wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:I mean, it's all well and good to not take 40k seriously, but it's actually WAY easier in my experience to not take another game seriously than it is to not take 40k seriously.
Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game?
"Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?" You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players), and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.
I've actually had that discussion with WMH, but that's often unusual because it has become the predominate assumption that there is no game besides the competitive. At one LGS, one of the guys literally stated, "We play only Steamroller here." Gave me the shivers.
And I've had 40K players in the same area act the same way, in which if the game was not set up with the next tournament rules in mind, then it was a no go, and they assumed that this would be the "normal" way to play.
Good point, I didn't think about WM/H when I wrote that. I also haven't played that game more than twice. But yes, the point is that other games which get taken "more seriously" than 40k often don't require that discussion, because 40k is actually pretty serious to some people.
Yeah, nothing was more joyless and miserable than my local area's WMH scene, good f'ing lord. Playing a few games of a fairly casually built wmh list (wanted to bring cool dragons, made a list to include the most big dragons while still being reasonably usable) against a competitively built wmh list had me running back to the darkest dark age of 7th ed, lol.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
Then I would just have armies from a setting I am not interested in, for a game with no community to play with. Paying too much for GW minis that I actually want and can use is still far better than paying any price for miniatures I do not want and can't use.
If you're not interested in World War 2, I get that. Chain of Command is more an example than anything else though, and I still find it shocking that there is no wargame setting out there that has your attention (or anyone else's). Is there some essence of 40k that makes it way better than any other of the myriad wargame settings that are out there?
The "no community" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've bootstrapped 3 games in my club now just by finding them and showing how good and fun they were. The number of players varies (from like 6 to 20) across the 3 games, but we went from zero local players to at least 6 in all cases. The only reason there's "no community" is people don't build the community, and the reason they don't start building the community is "there's no community". All it takes is one World War 2 nerd in the area and a fun toy displayed on your desk (I have a Soviet T-35 on my desk at work and netted myself 2 CoC players that way).
The minis is a whole 'nother discussion, but again, is there no setting nor set of minis that look agreeable outside GW? Citadel is cutting edge in its casting and sculpting, but it's not so far ahead of some other efforts as to make their sculpts totally bad. Some 3rd party manufacturers are pretty damn cool, even when they copy emulate GW's designs/concepts. Plus, there are even some games you can play withGW minis that aren't GW themselves, though I think you'd be overpaying at that point.
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm sort of shocked that other games don't take off given the price difference.
I mean, I know 40k is cooler than World War II because it's World-War-2-but-with-wizards-and-monsters or whatever, but holy cow. If you're just looking for a game to play, you could buy like six to eight World War 2 armies for Chain of Command for the price of the books you'd need to play 40k with one SM army right now.
It's not just about cost, it's about value. If somebody is not interested in Chain of Command then they are not getting much value for their money. I might prefer that a box of Bladeguard Veterans cost less than 60$CAD, but I buy one because I assess that I will get value out of the box both from the hobby aspect but also because I know I will get plenty of tabletop time out of them. My choice. Weird eh?
I know, that's a shocking choice is what I'm saying. It's not like World War 2 minis have less hobbying (Though they can if you want, there's a whole gamut of mini manufacturers and requirements). The tabletop time thing is, again, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone said "someone else has to play the game first" then no one would ever play any games. I do recognize that becoming a community leader is difficult, though, so no worries.
Maybe it's COVID keeping me from playing, but if all I'm doing is building and painting the models, I get WAY more value and fun out of World War 2 minis than GW minis, because you get so many for so cheap and they're still excellent quality.
See, you are revealing the true downsides to the 'other games' that are so often raised as great alternatives. "You can play this game, just build the community yourself!" Is a problem, not a solution. The amount of labor and effort I would have to put into that is worth a lot to me. Once that is accounted for, playing another game is actually MORE expensive for me; I am just substituting money with time and energy of which I have less to spare than money. I don't want to expand my hobby time with tons of cheap minis; I already have a to-do pile that will take me years! Further; GW minis often require less work on my part to assemble a high-quality product. And I certainly don't want to build a community from scratch, which amounts to putting in a huge amount of effort to MAYBE get to a place where I have people to play with regularly. Maybe, because those efforts can fail and go nowhere.
If it were really as easy as the proponents of such an approach say, we would see it happening all over the place.
Right. My point is, though, that other games don't require this level of discussion, precisely because people don't take them as seriously typically. To say "40k is fun because it isn't taken seriously" is evidently false, as some people DO take it seriously. Very seriously.
And some people take criticizing GWvery seriously.
Daedalus81 wrote:
I think you'd likely only ever have one of those as it encompasses all of your allied points as well as 1/4 the army.
for a Mega Gargant army you need at least 2 at 2k points
Daedalus81 wrote:
Quality of game is quite a subjective term especially depending on what you're looking for. Rolling out a historical as a "better game" has zero sway on my decision making, because I'm not interested in historicals right now.
I'd also imagine you'd find a lot more flaws in a game were there to be as large of a community playing and discussing those games. You and a handful of people at the shop aren't going to quite care to find flaws in a game you're enjoying.
it is not about the flaws you find over time, but that there is not put much afford into writing the rules in the first place
AoS is better than 40k in that regard (because it is less popular if they would do as bad as with 40k people want keep playing it) but still just an average skirmish game among many others
Rihgu wrote:
I dunno, I've seen a lot of variety out of the Mega-gargant kit...
I can't say that I realized the Mantic Giant was pose-able or had additional bits, but then again I haven't seen too much of them online. I've seen more variety out of Para Bellum's Jotnar but that may very well be conversion work.
there were some videos comparing the 2 gaints as they are the same height, the standard kit has 2 heads and 4 arms (2 of each) and fur for the shoulders, an extended kit that adds resin parts for another pair of arms, another head additional feet and shoulder covers
and there is the "transformed" one that has resin parts that turns it int a nightstalker monster
add in the Conquest Giants and you get 3-4 very different giants for less while the Mega Gargants all have the same body (and pose), but the Mantic Giants are made for gaming and you have to invest some more work to make it into a display model (for most people who play gray anyway this makes no difference)
Daedalus81 wrote:
It's posable in the sense that you can rotate the waist and arms and that's about it
already more than the Mega Gargant can do without using a knife and Green Stuff
Right. My point is, though, that other games don't require this level of discussion, precisely because people don't take them as seriously typically. To say "40k is fun because it isn't taken seriously" is evidently false, as some people DO take it seriously. Very seriously.
And some people take criticizing GWvery seriously.
I take people acting as if my time is worth nothing very seriously.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, it's all well and good to not take 40k seriously, but it's actually WAY easier in my experience to not take another game seriously than it is to not take 40k seriously.
Do you know what's NEVER a discussion I've had to have with any other game?
"Hey do you want to play casual/narrative/competitive?" You have to have that discussion with 40k because some people don't take it seriously (casual players), some people do take it seriously from a narrative perspective (narrative players), and others take it seriously from a gamesmanship standpoint (competition and competitive players), and the game is insufficiently well-put-together to reconcile those three playstyles without prior discussion.
Leaving aside the difference between "casual players" and "serious narrative players" in a 40K context, I think that the issue you are grappling has little to do with rules or how the game is put together. 40K Matched Play is a bit of a lingua franca for tabletop wargamers. As such it brings together all sorts of people. The "design" issue perhaps is that players have lots of freedom to make their list.
If you only play among friends then there is no communication problem. Only want to play "narratively?" Go for it - no obstacles. The issue is that you both want to play "narratively" and might even have different ideas of what that word means.
Some 30 years ago I was in a group that played WW2 Microarmour (1/285 scale). We used a modified version of Yaquinto's "88" system for the mechanics. We took turns being the referee and played double-blind. The referee brought the models and the two sides didn't know what each other's force was, nor the victory conditions. Movement was done on maps, and the referee determined when things could be seen. All the battles were "historical." There was no power-gaming from a list perspective, although rules-lawyering happens in any game...Years later with FOW and Team Yankee I found that while "historical" all the battles I had on the tabletop were in a competitive mindset. We almost never played "scenarios." People want to build and play "their dudes", not fill out a checklist of what the scenario calls for. That works well in boardgames such as ASL where you have all the pieces and map boards.
Our home-brew microarmour was great fun (especially the double-blind part), but it only worked in our little microcosm. It was hard to bring in new players. After about three years the group drifted apart. My point, though, is that if you are devoted to "hard core narrative 40K" then you pretty much have to play with close friends or a club of like-minded people. That is not GWs problem if you are not part of such a group. Out in the wilds of the FLGS' of the world I think that Matched Play is the lingua franca.
Boy are we off topic! Darned Space Marines! Its their fault! There, back on topic.
Yes, all of that is true. But what is confusing is why it is that way - other than inertia, of course.
Why is Matched Play the lingua franca? Just because it's supposedly the most balanced?
Or is it because of inertia? Clearly balance isn't the only reason, given how much it fluctuates (though I'd agree now we're approaching a rather okay balance state, especially once books like CWE get their release).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, all of that is true. But what is confusing is why it is that way - other than inertia, of course.
Why is Matched Play the lingua franca? Just because it's supposedly the most balanced?
Or is it because of inertia? Clearly balance isn't the only reason, given how much it fluctuates (though I'd agree now we're approaching a rather okay balance state, especially once books like CWE get their release).
Matched Play has the most assumptions/parameters built into the design. The players can have a "fair" match without prior discussion. A narrative match, though, requires coordination as well as the two players having compatible collections and interests. You might really want to refight some battle you read about in a Forgeworld book. I might know nothing about that or simply not find that battle to be my cup of tea especially if you wan to recreate something specific.
We can both rock up to the table with Matched Play lists and the parameters are already set. The terms have been agreed upon ahead of time without our having to communicate. We can then build a bit of a story around our two collections. Or just get on with the game.
When I play in my basement with my son or friends its narrative with a cool story. Lets do a last stand/thunder run as the Governor's convoy tries to make the roof of the embassy to get on the last Stormraven!
(I can't find excuses to spend 1€ per point on updates).
Sadly, named characters in 
