Tygre wrote: I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.
So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
This still would mean a harlequin army can nuke you turn one or two, with squads armed up to their noses with fusion pistols. Only with 1000pts being played, they would be wipping out entire armies, if those aren't horde or have execive numbers of chaff units.
Tygre wrote: I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.
So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
This still would mean a harlequin army can nuke you turn one or two, with squads armed up to their noses with fusion pistols. Only with 1000pts being played, they would be wipping out entire armies, if those aren't horde or have execive numbers of chaff units.
5 fusion clowns in a clown car is I believe 175pts, assuming you also have a troupe master and a shadowseer in there, and maybe a Solitaire or something to just use up the remaining points, you'll have to survive 20 fusion shots total.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Unless a new supplement comes along, and bar a very small amount of required multi-part kits and character options, the space marine model line is now complete.
Other than the above, and maybe the odd SC character update and maybe a new general start collecting box, marine releases are done till the end of 2022 at the earliest.
I get the frustration, but this cash cow indirectly supports other less financially lucrative products.
Soon they will release Heavy int and other models, so we are far away from done
Tygre wrote: I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind
I hear this sentiment sometimes but don't see anything to really indicate it to be true. Do you have any evidence backing this (interviews with designers for example)?
Tygre wrote: I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
40k is designed to be played with 500-1000 points, they just made 2000 points standard while decreasing the points per models over time to sell more models but the rules do not really support it because their basic design is with less models in mind
I hear this sentiment sometimes but don't see anything to really indicate it to be true. Do you have any evidence backing this (interviews with designers for example)?
the game by design is on a "per model" basis, and basic rules that are designed to have each individual model shoot, wound, saves, before the next starts doing it are limited by default to lower amounts of models until it gets tricky
also that individual equippment is very important is going into that direction
comparing the "core" rules of Infintiy, 40k and Warpath, and even without knowing the size the game wants to be you see a trend on what size the game is aming for
as reference from GW we have the rules from previous editions with 1500 points as standard that were less detailed on the individual models and also games based on the 40k rules that are aiming at 1000 points (as from the designers)
yet of GW official say that their rules are made to be played at 2000 points with that amount of models on the table, I can't take them serious
Soon they will release Heavy int and other models, so we are far away from done
Heavy Intercessor and the Captain that got included with them in Pariah Nexus are the last of the models we know about.
So unless you know something the rest of us don't...yeah, it's done.
Totally down for a redux of the early supplements and a rebox of some 'iconic units' ala Hounds of Morkai for them though. Raven Guard getting an Eliminator x Moritat unit would be delightful.
I've mentioned a few times in other threads that realistically, all general primaris marines need kit wise to flesh them out now are:
*They have a unit in the fluff called hell furys, it stands to reason this will be made at some point.
*A jump pack melee unit but it's not fully needed... It would just be nice to have the option.
*Proper Primaris Terminators
*Proper Primaris Land Raider equivalent (Repulsor is not it)
A few niche/unique character set ups, namely the alternate graves captain build from dark imperium etc.
All of the above can wait until 10th edition really though.
The rest of marines are chapter specific, and include plenty of special characters, and whilst it would be nice to see them upgraded, honestly, get Eldar and Guard sorted before touching any of this.
I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.
Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.
Kanluwen wrote: I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.
Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.
I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.
Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....
...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.
...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.
Kanluwen wrote: I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.
Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.
I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable. The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.
There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door. There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
Nope. You goons kept up this nonsense for so long about "Raven Guard are Jump Packs!!!11!!!" that this is what you deserve. No Jump Pack melee for anyone but Raven Guard.
Also it's super weird how the assumption seems to be that I'm arguing this to be a 5 man unit or whatever. I specifically called out Calgar's bodyguard for a reason. A two model kit that builds Shrike's Talons or a Raven Guard specific Lieutenant duo option would be aces.
Kanluwen wrote: I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.
Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.
I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.
There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
Nope. You goons kept up this nonsense for so long about "Raven Guard are Jump Packs!!!11!!!" that this is what you deserve. No Jump Pack melee for anyone but Raven Guard.
I might have seen more UM armies is one local meta than I've seen RG armies in my life. Likewise Space Wolves. Seen a few UM counts-as RG though, lol.
Blood Angels are also "The Jump Pack Marines" . . . and also probably more popular.
Nope, sorry. Blood Angels are the ragemarines. Them's the rules yo.
Also, lol @ you completely torpedoing your own point. "I've seen more UM armies in one local meta than I've seen RG armies in my life"...followed by "Seen a few UM counts-as RG though".
Raven Guard have not really had their own rules or characters for all that long. Prior to Shrike's addition? They had rules but nothing that was distinctively Raven Guard for models or theme beyond "Sneaky Marines in black".
More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.
My first army ever were Raven Guard marines, got a box of assault marines and a captain with lightening claws to add to my Maccrage Marines.
And then I realized that if everyone plays space marines there's no narrative depth to the game and I dropped marines forever and started up a Tau army.
Tygre wrote: I think part of the mobility vs firepower problem is how crammed the table is with modern armies. You can't manoeuvre away from firepower as you will run into someone else. And you can't use mobility to concentrate firepower as you are already have as much firepower per square inch anyway.
So pick one...
- Smaller armies, and have to leave some toys behind.
- Larger tables, but logistically and practically difficult.
- As is, and have to deal with the lack of mobility options.
I have a feeling GW staff and testers might use smaller armies. Quicker to test smaller games?
Smaller games with finer grained rules for every table size, preferably 8x4 a la 2nd edition imho.
kirotheavenger wrote: More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.
Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?
Supposed "Raven Guard" players for a time used Blood Angels rules, because "they're totes assaulty bruh!" while others used the Raptors rules from FW, that better exemplified the way Raven Guard were always described...but now we're stuck in a feedback loop of GW reinforcing that garbage interpretation of "melee Raven Guard!".
So lean into it. Give Raven Guard the only melee Omnis equipped Honor Guard/Lieutenants in the game. Blood Angels can get Inceptors or Gravis, who cares it's Blood Angels.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....
...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.
...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.
The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.
kirotheavenger wrote: More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.
Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?
Supposed "Raven Guard" players for a time used Blood Angels rules, because "they're totes assaulty bruh!" while others used the Raptors rules from FW, that better exemplified the way Raven Guard were always described...but now we're stuck in a feedback loop of GW reinforcing that garbage interpretation of "melee Raven Guard!".
So lean into it. Give Raven Guard the only melee Omnis equipped Honor Guard/Lieutenants in the game. Blood Angels can get Inceptors or Gravis, who cares it's Blood Angels.
TBH I'm confused by your general attitude of "I don't like it so burn it all down and embrace it".
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....
...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.
...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.
The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.
Because they had a chance to do something distinct and finally solidify Raven Guard conceptually...and they abandoned it to just do Shrike Mark II.
Fun fact: do you know the actual name of the Bolt Sniper Rifle that the Eliminators have, per the Shadowspear booklet? No?
It's the Shrike pattern Bolt Sniper Rifle. Apparently he worked with Cawl to make that happen...and instead we just get Emo Wolverines again.
Once again:
I'm saying do this as a bodyguard unit for Shrike and a special Lieutenant option for Raven Guard. You lot get everything Raven Guard have ever gotten. Give some frigging respect to one of the few Chapter Masters on the actual field at this point.
kirotheavenger wrote: More likely they were counts-as Raven Guard because the Raven Guard's chapter tactic was/is better. Not because they thematically liked the Raven Guard more.
Still lends itself to my point though, doesn't it?
Not really, no. More people collect UM. Counts-as is specifically people NOT collecting RG.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....
...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.
...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.
The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.
Assault Marines/Vanguard with two pistols have been around since RT. Inceptors don't bring anything to that other than the lack of other options and uglier models, imo.
Kanluwen wrote: I'd rather any Jump-pack specific melee unit be Raven Guard bodyguards for Shrike.
Shrike's Talons have long been a fluff thing. They even had rules at one point. Just let it be his 'signature unit' ala Calgar's bodyguards and be done with it.
I doubt there's enough RG players to make such a kit viable.
The smart thing to do would be to make it a duel kit that could serve both RG & generic/everyone else depending upon how you build it.
There's likely not enough Ultramarine players to make a Marneus Calgar+Honor Guard kit viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
There's likely not enough Space Wolf players to make the SKU for the "Hounds of Morkai" bundle viable, yet we got that shoveled out the door.
GW & reality (but most importantly GW...) disagrees with you concerning the #s of UM & SW players.
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have had how many starter sets between them?
Raven Guard's one "claim to fame" set was Shadow Force Solaq, a horribly priced and kitted "battle half" boxed set that had a model headlining it that looked like a rejected Ultramarines sculpt. Hell, until the Primaris upgrade pack the Raven Guard did not even have an easily available transfer sheet.
But hey. We can keep pretending that Space Wolves really merited their own unique Phobos unit before Raven Guard did. Cause I guess that's a thing, eh?
It is a thing. Space Wolves have consistently sold well since RT, and had the first codex of second edition.
Raven Guard did and _do_ still get a 'Who?' response from people.
There isn't even a pretense of comparison between the big four chapters and the also-rans, even if ultras took a little bit of time to catch up to the party.
Imperial Fists are better known than RG, and they're completely out shown by their successors.
It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.
Meh. As long as it doesn't get in the way of real release slots, the weird local subscription can do whatever it wants.
Perhaps. I'd never heard of this service before and while my knee jerk reaction was Oh god another Marine anything, I thought about it for a minute; imagine how dickish it would be to give a starving faction a new model and lock it behind a UK/EU-only subscription service.
It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.
Meh. As long as it doesn't get in the way of real release slots, the weird local subscription can do whatever it wants.
Perhaps. I'd never heard of this service before and while my knee jerk reaction was Oh god another Marine anything, I thought about it for a minute; imagine how dickish it would be to give a starving faction a new model and lock it behind a UK/EU-only subscription service.
Conquest was a thing, Mortal Realms is ongoing for AOS, and Imperium's start date for the first issue has yet to be announced.
This is a sculpt that is part of the deal with Hachette, not a release through GW, so, for the love of the Emperor, stop getting your damned knickers in a twist - unless of course you want the model and can't get it, in which case it is a little more understandable.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly, this is me saying this, you know I LOATHE the number of space marine releases we've had, but....
...come on. Assault marines have been a thing since rogue trader. Not having marines have dudes with swords and chainsaws with jetpacks strapped to their backs would be a travesty. It's a travesty that they haven't released them yet and have gotten side tracked by replacing Scouts with 19 different kits and by making 200 variations of a brick rolled around in a bits box with an 80$ price tag.
...Personally, I blame branding. They have to make space marines "recognizably" space marines in the same way that you can always tell that a clone trooper from star wars is a clone trooper, so their top priorities were replacing Scouts and Terminators with stuff that looked marinier - i.e. had the helmets, had the power armor, etc.
The Inceptors are much closer to the classic Rogue Trader drop picture than the Assault Marines.
And Rogue Trader has long since been made irrelevant by the much more...canon-establishing 2nd ed which codified a lot of current lore and tropes. It's not the most influential or iconic version of 40k to exist, never has been.
It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.
Meh. As long as it doesn't get in the way of real release slots, the weird local subscription can do whatever it wants.
Sigh.... yeah...I know. It's just, every time I see one of those crisp clean brand new shiny limited space marines, I just can't help but think about how utterly game changing it would be to get a new plastic warboss or guard commander or prime warrior or something. But no, that sculptor worked for several hours on sergeant ducklips mchipsterhair, 57th space marine model with a plasma pistol and power sword.
If they're gonna do limited edition models nobody can get, I guess I'd rather it be the 1,201,243th space marine with a power sword than something anyone might actually want and not be able to get, i suppose. I guess they learned their lesson from the kickass catachans where a bunch of people went "hey cool so I actually want that" and GW went "UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH we made....seven...."
It appears to be exclusive to a UK/EU-only model subscription service.
Meh. As long as it doesn't get in the way of real release slots, the weird local subscription can do whatever it wants.
Perhaps. I'd never heard of this service before and while my knee jerk reaction was Oh god another Marine anything, I thought about it for a minute; imagine how dickish it would be to give a starving faction a new model and lock it behind a UK/EU-only subscription service.
Well not even EU. I'm in EU and I can't get. It's like handful of countries in EU have got subscription before. There's no quarantee with brexit that this will be available outside UK. Forbidden planet that was way to get these outside UK has stopped shipping outside UK now as well.
But hey. We can keep pretending that Space Wolves really merited their own unique Phobos unit before Raven Guard did. Cause I guess that's a thing, eh?
Yes, they did. Because the SW supplement book launched & needed a few things to support it. Ragnar (wich we all knew they'd eventually release solo), the obligatory dice + cards & ???.
So new book with all new named unit....
You do realize that is also the easiest release possible though,, right?
All they did was create a data sheet, some lore, print a bunch of boxes, and fill said boxes with already existing Reiver sprues & add the already existing SW upgrade sprue.
My guess is that in the future, should the initial run ever sell through, it'll become a direct only item & ship in a plane white box with an ID sticker on it.
And the SW supplement launched 1st because.... Theres a helluva lot of SW players out there.
Meanwhile, where's that RG supplement?
Coming eventually.....
You do understand that the 9E Marine book that SW is a supplement to is basically just a revamp of the post-Shadowspear book, yeah? There's not really a huge need to redo the Codex Marine supplements that came out with the Phobos containing book...other than to maybe add signature units.
UPDATES With the release of the 2020 edition of Codex: Space Marines, it is necessary to update the Codex supplements that were written to work alongside its predecessor. These updates ensure that the rules presented in this supplement work smoothly and ‘as intended’ with the latest Codex. They involve such things as adding the Core keyword in the appropriate places and attaching appropriate labels and categories to psychic powers and Stratagems. They also include updating certain weapon profiles to match changes in Codex: Space Marines, and readjusting certain other rules to take into account their altered efficacy when used in conjunction with the new units and rules presented in Codex: Space Marines.
Totally agree, the massive emphasis on space marines is a huge turn off tbh. Being out of the hobby for a while and talking to newer hobbyists, its a little surprising to hear how they refer to armies, and how every space marine chapter is now thought of as a different army, each comparable to an entire Xenos faction, so the conversation has changed from "I collect space marines, and another guy says I collect Tyranids" to "I collect Space Wolves, and I collect Tyranids". Might seem trivial, but as someone who really got into the game during 3rd edition, where there was far more empasis on different factions, and the emphasis was much more diverse, with each faction having it's own playstyle and theme, it's very odd, and a bit demoralising as someone who isn't interested in space marines. I guess I still sort of think of it as different space marine chapters are stil kind of just an justification to paint your space marines different colours, then have a few special units and characters, but they're still just space marines. Now there's like a space marine chapter that does what every non space marine army does, but better, and with newer models too.
I understand space marines have always been at the centre of 40k, and they will get more releases, but it feels like any semblance of balance or wanting to create a rich, immersive world where every faction has it's own sense of importance and value and narrative, has really gone out the window. Now it's all space marines all the time, and everything else is just there to be NPCs. Having hilariously overpowered rules, and making space marine copies of other armies units (looking at the fire dragon marines and grav tanks...) doesn't exactly help either... One of the many things I've found to be a real turn off with 9th, and has actually stopped me from pursuing games and new models a lot. No one wants to be an NPC!
Sumilidon wrote: I was considering leaving due to the clear Space Marine via but then I decided just to collect Space Marines instead.
Oddly enough, I think this is one of their clear goals. So in this case it worked.
Now there is a negative for supporting the most popular faction. The power creep on new units can be more often and nagging. You run the risk of them trying to reboot a whole line to make you buy your army again ( what they wanted to do perhaps with first born marines v primaris ). Something you have to worry about less with say Guard or Eldar, Dark Eldar who are lucky to see a new unit a year so they probably won't reboot your whole army away but they may cut away HQs in the case of Dark Eldar and I believe even Eldar have suffered this. Also a hectic release schedule so if you are someone who likes to have a complete collection, that may never be the case for Marines as they just roll out forever causing massive wallet pains.
So there is good for being a Marine player, but there is also the bad. I'd settle for all the factions having some level of power parity so at least if you never get new stuff the stuff you do get feels good.
As mentioned previously. Playing a Xenos faction makes you almost a star at FLGS due to players being burned out playing against different colors of the same damn unit over and over again. Plus, there is the added benefit of playing a race that nobody has any real experience playing against where as 1/3rd of your games will always be against different colors of power armor.
There is also that, sometimes being the odd man out with a unique faction works for you. Everyone thinks about how to kill Marines. Most probably don't thought exercise on how to best kill all the other factions, like say DE which there aren't many players of them around here, for instance.
SemperMortis wrote: As mentioned previously. Playing a Xenos faction makes you almost a star at FLGS due to players being burned out playing against different colors of the same damn unit over and over again. Plus, there is the added benefit of playing a race that nobody has any real experience playing against where as 1/3rd of your games will always be against different colors of power armor.
As a xeno you'd just be one of the herd at the one shop where I play.
We've got
*Necrons x4 (maybe 5 now?)
*Nids x2
*Orks x1
*Eldar/Harlequins x1
*SoB x3
*Guard x1
*Chaos (demons) x1
*Thousand Sons x1
*DG x3
*CSM x1
*Admech x1
*Imperial Knights x1
*GK x1
*and around 10-12 assorted SM forces
And I know there's 1 Custodes force, I've just never seen it.
Somebody probably has Chaos Knights.
I haven't seen any hint of Tau or Dark Eldar though.
see you later all. its been years since i last posted, and seeing the GW apologists are still here (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/796744.page) has just convinced me why i left in the 1st place, probably wont be back. hope you guys get treated better in the hobby.
SemperMortis wrote: As mentioned previously. Playing a Xenos faction makes you almost a star at FLGS due to players being burned out playing against different colors of the same damn unit over and over again. Plus, there is the added benefit of playing a race that nobody has any real experience playing against where as 1/3rd of your games will always be against different colors of power armor.
As a xeno you'd just be one of the herd at the one shop where I play.
you have:
11-13 good Marines
3 female Marines
5 evil Marines
= 19-21
3 imperial
9-10 Xenos
at least for me "being on of the herd" would not mean being the 11th Xenos player but the 22nd Marine player
How many new plastic kits and new single plastic models have Space Marines had in the last few years?
Has anyone counted?
Because it seems loads and loads.
And I'm still waiting here for 85% of the Craftworlds army to be updated to plastic.
The more I think on it, the more pissed off I get.
Its goddamn ridiculous.
I think people waiting to buy new xenos models while GW heaps new space marine models at people buying space marine models might suggest which strategy encourages GW to produce what models.
Mind you, I don't particularly want to buy 300 new gaunts just because GW released new Termagant, Hormagaunt, and Gargoyle boxes.
dan2026 wrote: How many new plastic kits and new single plastic models have Space Marines had in the last few years?
Has anyone counted?
Because it seems loads and loads.
And I'm still waiting here for 85% of the Craftworlds army to be updated to plastic.
The more I think on it, the more pissed off I get.
Its goddamn ridiculous.
In terms of kit numbers, Codex Space marines has had the equivalent of 4x Sisters of Battle Relaunches since 2017 when primaris first came out.
dan2026 wrote: How many new plastic kits and new single plastic models have Space Marines had in the last few years?
Has anyone counted?
Because it seems loads and loads.
And I'm still waiting here for 85% of the Craftworlds army to be updated to plastic.
The more I think on it, the more pissed off I get.
Its goddamn ridiculous.
In terms of kit numbers, Codex Space marines has had the equivalent of 4x Sisters of Battle Relaunches since 2017 when primaris first came out.
Insanity, complete insanity.
Just by cutting a fraction of the new Marine models, half the old neglected armies could of been updated by now.
Yet we are on the cusp of the next Dark Eldar book and it looks like they are getting one new plastic model. One. Just one.
see you later all. its been years since i last posted, and seeing the GW apologists are still here (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/796744.page) has just convinced me why i left in the 1st place, probably wont be back. hope you guys get treated better in the hobby.
Keep in mind "the hobby" is miniature wargaming, despite GW's best attempts at propaganda and their stans' worship. There are plenty of other good games out there.
Hecaton wrote: ...Keep in mind "the hobby" is miniature wargaming, despite GW's best attempts at propaganda and their stans' worship. There are plenty of other good games out there.
I'd like to second this. Too many people assume that GW's customer-unfriendly behaviour (badly-staggered releases, horrendous power creep, regular edition changes to make everyone buy all the books again, rules written to sell models that they've got too many of lying around, putting all their time and energy into one faction and leaving others to languish for years or decades with nothing, bundling models you don't want with models you do want to move product) are the industry standard, and any other game is going to put them in the exact same boat, when these are really GW problems and not tabletop-wargaming-in-general problems.
Absolutely! You can keep participating in "The Hobby" without giving GW a cent and incentivizing its current behavior.
3rd party minis or 3D printing gives you a lot more freedom in what you make of Your Dudes, usually without spending many times what a plastic kit should cost. There's old editions of Warhammer that can be played, or hybrids like Prohammer.
Or just consider entire different games. CB Infinity is complex, but fantastic if you want genuine tactical depth and clever plays instead of what 9th rather dubiously terms "Stratagems." On the other side of things, One Page Rules/Grimdark Future is what heavy streamlining of 40k looks like, a better casual beer-and-pretzels wargame that remembers what Universal Special Rules are for and actually has rules for space dwarves. Either is a good choice if you're sick of the one-faction tongue-worshipping.
dan2026 wrote: How many new plastic kits and new single plastic models have Space Marines had in the last few years?
Has anyone counted?
Because it seems loads and loads.
And I'm still waiting here for 85% of the Craftworlds army to be updated to plastic.
The more I think on it, the more pissed off I get.
Its goddamn ridiculous.
In terms of kit numbers, Codex Space marines has had the equivalent of 4x Sisters of Battle Relaunches since 2017 when primaris first came out.
Insanity, complete insanity.
Just by cutting a fraction of the new Marine models, half the old neglected armies could of been updated by now.
Yet we are on the cusp of the next Dark Eldar book and it looks like they are getting one new plastic model. One. Just one.
My head spins.
Hang on what? One model, are you serious? Where are you getting this from?
I'm trying to rebuild my old eldar army, sort of waiting to see what they release for Eldar before going for any infantry beyond character models, thought Dark Eldar will give some clues as to their intentions.
If they get the Necron/Primaris treatment where it's basically a total redo of the whole army just bigger and with less character, I'd be very happy to stick with the old models tbh. I wasn't that impressed with the new banshees, seemed a bit bland, and the new Eldrad is just not as cool as the old one (they got the pose wrong, and way too billowy) though Jain Zar was a big improvement. The Artel W models mean GW has very stiff competition if redoing the aspect warriors, they're pretty great and so far are really making me hold off on getting the old metals, despite nostalgia.
Seems to me too that in the current rules system it will be very hard to make an eldar army really work as they do in the fluff.
Kanluwen wrote: Right now, the only new Drukhari model we definitively know about is Lelith Hesperax in the Pain & Piety box coming out.
With Eldar? Nobody really knows WTF is going on behind closed doors.
I strongly think Exodites in the vein of some aos crap. Seriously. Jes Goodwin always wanted more of them, feral elves on dragons incoming. Probably already sculpted. Easy to justify in the fluff, lets them do something new, and loads of the big centrepiece overdesigned kits that they love these days. Realistically other than redoing aspect warriors and the phoenix lords (which I really doubt they'll do, just too big a project for likely average to poor sales as with most redos, and they probably can't get away with the primaris nonsense again).
No new craftworld eldar models at all, artel w and ghost minis making better versions of the aspect warriors likely sealed their fate I suspect. The phoenix rising box sold very poorly (because it was a terrible box set), and given that the studio has been directed by the sales guys for years now (and is really just a marketing department for a toy company rather than an actual art studio like the old days), craftworld eldar are likely finished imo.
The scorpions and warp spiders are great too, really dynamic and very detailed, but they're a little beefy for Eldar. The Archon kit with the slaves is pretty awesome too.
Kanluwen wrote: Ehhh...hacking programs and some of the actions in Infinity are really no different to stratagems.
Warcaster is much better than Infinity to be honest.
I think what's wrong with Stratagems, from which perspective, and what system solves what about them is its own thread; In the interest of staying one level removed from on-topic in "Alternatives to GW/40K," though, I'll admit to not being familiar with Warcaster. What would you say is/are the best thing or things about it?
Kanluwen wrote: I very much doubt we'll see Exodites as anything barring a unit.
Feral space elves on dragons/dinosaurs, bookmark it.
Saw an interview somewhere a while back where Jes Goodwin teases them tongue and cheek, but also as it turns out perfectly described the new Jain Zar model and Banshees years in advance. It makes sense, what else can they do with Eldar? They've ditched Corsairs, they've ditched Ynnari it seems, Exodites fit the bill perfectly for the current style.
Would you have ever have thought they'd take high elves (one of their oldest, most popular, and consistently best selling armies ever), and turn them into that far eastern mythology (as interpreted by video games) inspired rubbish with added cows? Eldar to Exodites is a far smaller step frankly.
Yeah, "Elves on Dinosaurs" does frankly sound like just the sort of thing they love these days. They love those big, expensive kits that break every time you actually try to play with them.
Yeah, an exodite unit as Ynarri is something I've long advocated for; my dream is that they make a Ynarri army by releasing a handful of Reborn Corsair units and a handful of Reborn Exodite units. Then White Dwarf can write mini-dexes for stand-alone Corsairs and Exodites using the existing Ynarri models.
And while I do absolutely LOVE all of Artel's stuff, make no mistake about it, if GW drops a Be'lakor/ LOW sized Avatar and a box for every Aspect, and drops Vect, Grotesques, Trueborn and Bloodbrides to round out the release, all in delicious plastic in the summer of 22 or 23... Quite frankly, I'll forget all about Mr Artel and his breath-takingly beautiful resin, and so will everyone else.
I will already have Artel's Grotesques and possibly his Archon by then, but that won't stop me from buying the GW versions when we get them.
Kanluwen wrote: I very much doubt we'll see Exodites as anything barring a unit.
Feral space elves on dragons/dinosaurs, bookmark it.
Saw an interview somewhere a while back where Jes Goodwin teases them tongue and cheek, but also as it turns out perfectly described the new Jain Zar model and Banshees years in advance.
Let's be real here. Jain Zar and Banshees have an established aesthetic and look. Goodwin's been teasing Exodites for years, and always does whenever he gets the chance. Because they're a pet project for him.
It makes sense, what else can they do with Eldar? They've ditched Corsairs, they've ditched Ynnari it seems, Exodites fit the bill perfectly for the current style.
Corsairs were always going to get ditched, thanks to them being Forge World upgrade kits.
We've seen nothing to indicate Ynnari being ditched either.
Would you have ever have thought they'd take high elves (one of their oldest, most popular, and consistently best selling armies ever), and turn them into that far eastern mythology (as interpreted by video games) inspired rubbish with added cows? Eldar to Exodites is a far smaller step frankly.
"Far eastern mythology(as interpreted by video games)" is a bit...oversimplified if anything. Unless you've got specific games in mind that is. It's not a genre I've gone into heavily but never have I really been exposed to the genius loci from that genre. It was more of a Romanic thing but I guess it's also Shinto in the form of Kami?
And frankly yeah. I'm not shocked nor upset by it. If you'd actually read Elf lore over the years, there's a lot of things that kinda point towards the direction they've taken it. Wood Elves, for example, believed that Athel Loren had a 'Weave' that connected every living creature within it to the forest. The forest of Athel Loren was even ruled by a "Council of Beasts" that predated the existence of Chaos. They were spiritforms that took shapes to interact only with Orion and Ariel.
High Elves and their Waystones were a method that the High Elves used to purify the 'spirits' of lands tainted by the touch of Chaos or Death magic. They were also a way for High Elf souls to be protected from the predations of Slaanesh.
The Lumineth have one subfaction within their ranks in the form of the Aelementari Temples which devote themselves to helping "restore the natural balance" of the Mortal Realms. To do so they devote themselves to an element, a shrine, and a specific locality. They devote themselves to a wind upon the plain and a spirit that might have 'spoken' to them there, a mountain peak, a river, or most rarely the rays of light from Hysh itself shining upon them. There's another subfaction called the "Vanari" which is their standing military, and another called the "Scinari" who are the wizards or dedicated magic users.
By the by?
It's not a "cow". The constructs known as the Spirits of the Mountain(hand-crafted by the temples of each mountain, using items from the mountain) are mimicking the look of the "Ymetrican Longhorn"...which is a kind of buffalo, per Phil Kelly--the guy who literally wrote the book on the lore.
Kanluwen wrote: Ehhh...hacking programs and some of the actions in Infinity are really no different to stratagems.
Warcaster is much better than Infinity to be honest.
I think what's wrong with Stratagems, from which perspective, and what system solves what about them is its own thread; In the interest of staying one level removed from on-topic in "Alternatives to GW/40K," though, I'll admit to not being familiar with Warcaster. What would you say is/are the best thing or things about it?
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Warcaster does a fantastic job with making a small-scale game that's intended to have a kind of "skirmish-y feel" feel meaningful. You can utilize the Warp Gates as a way to bring reinforcements back to the game, but there's also an element of making sure that you can actually keep your gates up and ready if you want to do that.
Kanluwen wrote: I very much doubt we'll see Exodites as anything barring a unit.
Feral space elves on dragons/dinosaurs, bookmark it.
Saw an interview somewhere a while back where Jes Goodwin teases them tongue and cheek, but also as it turns out perfectly described the new Jain Zar model and Banshees years in advance.
Let's be real here. Jain Zar and Banshees have an established aesthetic and look. Goodwin's been teasing Exodites for years, and always does whenever he gets the chance. Because they're a pet project for him.
It makes sense, what else can they do with Eldar? They've ditched Corsairs, they've ditched Ynnari it seems, Exodites fit the bill perfectly for the current style.
Corsairs were always going to get ditched, thanks to them being Forge World upgrade kits.
We've seen nothing to indicate Ynnari being ditched either.
Would you have ever have thought they'd take high elves (one of their oldest, most popular, and consistently best selling armies ever), and turn them into that far eastern mythology (as interpreted by video games) inspired rubbish with added cows? Eldar to Exodites is a far smaller step frankly.
"Far eastern mythology(as interpreted by video games)" is a bit...oversimplified if anything. Unless you've got specific games in mind that is. It's not a genre I've gone into heavily but never have I really been exposed to the genius loci from that genre. It was more of a Romanic thing but I guess it's also Shinto in the form of Kami?
And frankly yeah. I'm not shocked nor upset by it. If you'd actually read Elf lore over the years, there's a lot of things that kinda point towards the direction they've taken it. Wood Elves, for example, believed that Athel Loren had a 'Weave' that connected every living creature within it to the forest. The forest of Athel Loren was even ruled by a "Council of Beasts" that predated the existence of Chaos. They were spiritforms that took shapes to interact only with Orion and Ariel.
High Elves and their Waystones were a method that the High Elves used to purify the 'spirits' of lands tainted by the touch of Chaos or Death magic. They were also a way for High Elf souls to be protected from the predations of Slaanesh.
The Lumineth have one subfaction within their ranks in the form of the Aelementari Temples which devote themselves to helping "restore the natural balance" of the Mortal Realms. To do so they devote themselves to an element, a shrine, and a specific locality. They devote themselves to a wind upon the plain and a spirit that might have 'spoken' to them there, a mountain peak, a river, or most rarely the rays of light from Hysh itself shining upon them. There's another subfaction called the "Vanari" which is their standing military, and another called the "Scinari" who are the wizards or dedicated magic users.
By the by?
It's not a "cow". The constructs known as the Spirits of the Mountain(hand-crafted by the temples of each mountain, using items from the mountain) are mimicking the look of the "Ymetrican Longhorn"...which is a kind of buffalo, per Phil Kelly--the guy who literally wrote the book on the lore.
Well we'll wait and see what happens, but I'm pretty sure we're gonna see exodites, purely from a business sense, and with the current direction they're taking, redoing craftworld eldar doesn't really fit.
Lol with over 600 metal high elves collected over 27 years (literally every single sculpt 4th edition onwards including a few unreleased things) you better believe I've read the lore. The whole thing about waystones basically being the same as the 40k Eldar ones, that was a later addition sort of 8th edition onwards, it wasn't a thing before then, they were just about absorbing the excess magic. Back in the day the high elf forum even tried writing rules for waystones as a new unit that gave defensive magic abilities. Please don't patronise me about high elf lore, you'll just look a fool.
Similarly the weave and the world roots of wood elves etc were all later additions, it was this whole basic problem with wood elves that geographically there was no reason for them to fight most armies, and then pre 8th ed, and especially pre 6th ed their lore was way too close to Tolkien/Pan. 8th ed really dropped the ball with wood elves, it wasn't a good change of direction from the 6th ed book at all. Not sure about the council of beasts thing, I don't remember that but it's been years since I've read their fluff.
In terms of the lumineth I haven't really read the lore, because I gave up on aos lore a while back, every bit of I tried to read just seemed godawful, and they don't interest me as an army because as I said the aesthetics (the primary point of design, the lore all comes after in their process), is based on a far eastern aesthetic that really has nothing to do with high elves. Yes the Kami model is a real giveaway, even the clothing is very much an historical Asian aesthetic (missus is from that part of the world, confirms), with some Greek hoplite mish mashed in. The High Elf aesthetic was really based on the Normans (hence Dwarfs were based on Saxons), as at the time the studio were all history buffs, every army pretty much followed an historical aesthetic, that was really the whole idea with WFB tbh (Knights vs a Giant was always the classic example Nigel Stillman would give). Pretty much all of the guys from back then now work in historical wargaming, that was always their real passion, it's what made the fluff so immersive and loved, your imagination could really fill in the gaps, you could understand it without having to be told every detail, you could build your own stories around it because you could understand it easily as it was culturally relatable. Think of it this way, when you see a High Elf riding a dragon, you get it immediately, no one asks why he's on a dragon, but when you see the cow/whatever statue thing with the awful proportions, it's going to require what sounds like a pretty long explanation as to why that thing exists. Can you see the difference? In design and writing that matters, no one wants to hear/read a ton of exposition, show, don't tell. AoS is bloody terrible at this.
The High Elf lore was a mix of tolkien and an epic succession struggle, it was just a damn good story tbh. Ulthuan obviously had some Atlantis in there for good measure too. Phil Kelly did not have authorship of any of the High Elf army books, he didn't even work there when the High Elf lore was originally written (it didn't fundamentally change from 4th ed to 8th ed until the end times, apart from a little stuff with Eltharion in 6th edition) so frankly I don't really care what his thoughts on the High Elf lore were, he's merely standing on the shoulders of giants.
Dude I have to tell you, when you try to justify the aos fluff writing....I'm pretty sure it sounds a lot better in your head, but when you read that back.....it just sounds terrible.
Funny how the things you like are super cool but something you dislike "sounds terrible". When you cannot even be bothered to read the lore or sit down and listen to the original bits introducing the lore? That's what makes you "look like a fool". Constantly parroting garbage about "cowelves", that's what makes you "look like a fool".
If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Piracy is a problem for a company, no one should think it is not ("oooh but GW is such a big company the bastards !").
addnid wrote: If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Eventhough I do not really like most of Artel's "not eldars" models, it's what happens when there is a demand and you don't fill it : someone else does. They can only blame themselves when they prefer reinventing something that is already selling (yes, SMs) instead of modernising something that "everyone" is waiting for (and people want these that badly that they are ready to pay close to GW's prices for "not aspect warriors"). And most aspect warriors had "gak" rules for most of their life anyway.
addnid wrote: If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Piracy is a problem for a company, no one should think it is not ("oooh but GW is such a big company the bastards !").
I'm sorry, but GW does not have a monopoly on the idea of "space armored warrior with a spider theme and a big gun". GW made the design for Warp Spiders...when, 1990? 31 years ago.
If making a replacement product out of a superior material using superior design techniques with a vastly more intricate design completely sculpted from scratch 31 years later is "Piracy" then whoever owns Castle Wolfenstein has a lot of lawsuits to throw around at every other video game developer who's made a first person shooter video game, ever.
either keep your design up to date once in 3 decades or someone is going to build a better mousetrap. That's just fething capitalism, baby, if the guy that founded Mcdonalds kept everything about their restaurants exactly the same as it was when they first came up with the idea and someone created the current modern iteration of Wendy's then that first guy deserves to get driven out of business.
Kanluwen wrote: Funny how the things you like are super cool but something you dislike "sounds terrible". When you cannot even be bothered to read the lore or sit down and listen to the original bits introducing the lore? That's what makes you "look like a fool". Constantly parroting garbage about "cowelves", that's what makes you "look like a fool".
Enjoy ignore.
Lol I literally explain my thinking exactly. You can't even be bothered to counter it or more likely simply can't refute it. You're clearly not someone worth listening to, and yes, you do look like a fool, and judging from your total inability to differentiate between good and bad writing, you probably are a fool. Ignored.
addnid wrote: If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Piracy is a problem for a company, no one should think it is not ("oooh but GW is such a big company the bastards !").
I'm sorry, but GW does not have a monopoly on the idea of "space armored warrior with a spider theme and a big gun". GW made the design for Warp Spiders...when, 1990? 31 years ago.
If making a replacement product out of a superior material using superior design techniques with a vastly more intricate design completely sculpted from scratch 31 years later is "Piracy" then whoever owns Castle Wolfenstein has a lot of lawsuits to throw around at every other video game developer who's made a first person shooter video game, ever.
either keep your design up to date once in 3 decades or someone is going to build a better mousetrap. That's just fething capitalism, baby, if the guy that founded Mcdonalds kept everything about their restaurants exactly the same as it was when they first came up with the idea and someone created the current modern iteration of Wendy's then that first guy deserves to get driven out of business.
If you're wrong GW owe Tom Meier a lotttttttttt of god damn money
For every customer GW loses they gain three more. Or at least that is how it seems. By not updating some of the most broken factions first (thousand sons) and the flood of marines, GW speaks its intent. My money doesnt matter because they will get more from marine fan #56778.
Eventually there will be no NPCs left for marines to beat up on. Rant off.
It's not a "cow". The constructs known as the Spirits of the Mountain(hand-crafted by the temples of each mountain, using items from the mountain) are mimicking the look of the "Ymetrican Longhorn"...which is a kind of buffalo, per Phil Kelly--the guy who literally wrote the book on the lore.
Great summary that sheds some light on why AoS is so unrelatable to many. Much appreciated.
I dunno, maybe it's just massive fatigue from dealing with numerous "lore based' settings but, honestly, I'm happier with AOS as a setting than I am with 40k at this point. It's just so refreshing to be allowed to do "my dudes" and define for myself what my dudes are like and do, as opposed to 40k's increasingly nailed-down and corporatized lore.
It's "unrelatable to many" because in this day and age, people keep relying on garbage like Reddit or "lorehammer" videos.
FFS, in the initial preview video that had the Alarith? They did an in-depth lore bit, which even talked about the "Ymetrican Longhorn Buffalo" being the inspiration for the construct bodies. Yet people kept parroting the garbage spewed by neckbeards who just wanna hate on everything that isn't their precious Old World.
Great summary that sheds some light on why AoS is so unrelatable to many. Much appreciated.
I dunno, maybe it's just massive fatigue from dealing with numerous "lore based' settings but, honestly, I'm happier with AOS as a setting than I am with 40k at this point. It's just so refreshing to be allowed to do "my dudes" and define for myself what my dudes are like and do, as opposed to 40k's increasingly nailed-down and corporatized lore.
Fair enough, I'm not going to question your personal experience and I won't begrudge you for for it either. On the other hand, we should also acknowledge the other side of that same coin.
Kanluwen wrote: It's "unrelatable to many" because in this day and age, people keep relying on garbage like Reddit or "lorehammer" videos.
FFS, in the initial preview video that had the Alarith? They did an in-depth lore bit, which even talked about the "Ymetrican Longhorn Buffalo" being the inspiration for the construct bodies. Yet people kept parroting the garbage spewed by neckbeards who just wanna hate on everything that isn't their precious Old World.
No, it's unrelatable to many due to a vastly different design philosophy that simply doesn't click with everyone. Reducing everything to frustrated grogs being contrarians for the sake of it is a gak take that people need to stop resorting to.
Yeah. We've been cool with elves wielding chainsaws and laser guns in our settings for how long? And suddenly a golem isn't acceptably elfy because it has a hammer and cow horns.
Vaul has been a thing with warhammer forever, and he's a smith god and he uses hammers. Devotees to Vaul having hammers is perfectly lore friendly.
When "the other side" does nonsense like saying "you clearly have bad taste" when they have not even bothered to read the lore? When they haven't even bothered to read the free bits that GW has put online?
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.
Factions seeing releases is not the same as Sectorials getting releases. When was the last USARF release? Merovingia is only seeing releases now because they jammed stuff into Kosmoyawn. You can pretend that it's splitting hairs but it's a far, far different set of fish than what goes on with GW. As much as people gripe about Ultramarines, we're not swimming in brand new Ultramarines only characters while nobody else is seeing them.
And quite frankly, yeah. There are "standout factions" in Infinity. Dig around and you'll see that the whole nonsense about "winrate in tournaments" is a bit inflated given that you've got people playing whatever the new hotness is over actually sticking to an army. Part of the whole saltiness over the various campaigns that CB has done that resulted in models going to factions was because players would stack their wins with a power army only to throw the win to their next power army(IE: Bit & KISS going to Combined Army despite the purported winner who picked playing Military Orders to get there).
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.
Factions seeing releases is not the same as Sectorials getting releases. When was the last USARF release? Merovingia is only seeing releases now because they jammed stuff into Kosmoyawn.
You can pretend that it's splitting hairs but it's a far, far different set of fish than what goes on with GW. As much as people gripe about Ultramarines, we're not swimming in brand new Ultramarines only characters while nobody else is seeing them.
And quite frankly, yeah. There are "standout factions" in Infinity. Dig around and you'll see that the whole nonsense about "winrate in tournaments" is a bit inflated given that you've got people playing whatever the new hotness is over actually sticking to an army. Part of the whole saltiness over the various campaigns that CB has done that resulted in models going to factions was because players would stack their wins with a power army only to throw the win to their next power army(IE: Bit & KISS going to Combined Army despite the purported winner who picked playing Military Orders to get there).
Fair enough some sectorials not seeing releases, but theyre still seeing rules updates, unlike 40k's forgotten factions. I can still play Acon with the updated points and rules even if the sectorial is OOP and still feel on an even footing as other N4 armies.
And sure, tournaments winrates dont reflect how balanced a game is for its playerbase (considering most arent tournament players). I just find that infinity has a much solid ruleset and every faction can do good. I'd pick infinity over 40k any day of the week for a competitive wargame experience. 40k is purely for chilling with friends while throwing dice and not caring about the outcome of the game.
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.
According to the polish forums it is nomads, combined army follow by something caller waruna, but I have strong feeling the last thing is a slang term in polish.
Kanluwen wrote: When "the other side" does nonsense like saying "you clearly have bad taste" when they have not even bothered to read the lore? When they haven't even bothered to read the free bits that GW has put online?
I ain't acknowledging it.
"It's a battle mountain buffalo, not a battle mountain cow, huge difference, pls read"
OK. It's a difference how ? People don't like the design and it's why they coined it "cow", it's all there is to it and you shouldn't care.
And you guys are arguing opinions, like "I don't like turquoise and I prefer yellow as everyone can easily recognise it" "No you're wrong read chemical composition of turquoise, it's actually emerald ! It's clearly better !"
Fair enough some sectorials not seeing releases, but theyre still seeing rules updates, unlike 40k's forgotten factions. I can still play Acon with the updated points and rules even if the sectorial is OOP and still feel on an even footing as other N4 armies.
This part is a bit of an outlier though. Tohaa are still regarded as a garbage faction, as far as I'm aware, even with updated points and rules. Acon's power level scales with the fact that a good chunk of its items also are in Varuna or Military Orders.
And sure, tournaments winrates dont reflect how balanced a game is for its playerbase (considering most arent tournament players). I just find that infinity has a much solid ruleset and every faction can do good. I'd pick infinity over 40k any day of the week for a competitive wargame experience. 40k is purely for chilling with friends while throwing dice and not caring about the outcome of the game.
Your experience is your experience, I guess. Mine is that the "solid ruleset" for Infinity requires you to basically always be online, constantly monitoring for FAQs or weird "rulings" from people that aren't even part of the actual company and extensively devoting time strictly to learning the ins and outs of Infinity. There's a reason people refer to it as a "lifestyle game".
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Huh? What clear "standout faction" is there in infinity? And what metric are you using? Because most factions see some releases every year at least and the delta in winrate in tournaments is a lot smaller than 40k's.
According to the polish forums it is nomads, combined army follow by something caller waruna, but I have strong feeling the last thing is a slang term in polish.
Those were 3 of the better armies in the last edition (last one is "Varuna") but when i say better, i don't mean that they have 60%+ winrate while other factions have 40%- winrates.
latest tournament results i could find with a quick research put armies from 42% to 52%, with the second worse at 44%. In my eyes, that is much better than what 40k accomplishes
Fair enough some sectorials not seeing releases, but theyre still seeing rules updates, unlike 40k's forgotten factions. I can still play Acon with the updated points and rules even if the sectorial is OOP and still feel on an even footing as other N4 armies.
This part is a bit of an outlier though. Tohaa are still regarded as a garbage faction, as far as I'm aware, even with updated points and rules. Acon's power level scales with the fact that a good chunk of its items also are in Varuna or Military Orders.
And sure, tournaments winrates dont reflect how balanced a game is for its playerbase (considering most arent tournament players). I just find that infinity has a much solid ruleset and every faction can do good. I'd pick infinity over 40k any day of the week for a competitive wargame experience. 40k is purely for chilling with friends while throwing dice and not caring about the outcome of the game.
Your experience is your experience, I guess. Mine is that the "solid ruleset" for Infinity requires you to basically always be online, constantly monitoring for FAQs or weird "rulings" from people that aren't even part of the actual company and extensively devoting time strictly to learning the ins and outs of Infinity. There's a reason people refer to it as a "lifestyle game".
Tohaa have been winning many tournaments lately, and Acon/MO share only their remotes with Varuna. MO is still considered as a lower power faction (this might change with the ongoing rework)
As for the rules. CB gives a free wiki that is kept up-to-date with rules updates. With N4 getting rid of the nested rules, you legit only need to click the name of an ability to be redirected to the corresponding wiki page. Of course you need to refer to it often when you learn the game considering there is much more going on in that game than in 40k.
Even if Nomads are the favourite faction, it's nowhere near comparable to Space Marines in 40K.
On High Elves, I'd say they're pretty clearly also influenced by the elves in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, as well as Moorcock's Elric series, particularly the affinity with dragons and some of the naming conventions. And then you can splash in some LOTR (but not as much as people seem to think - I see lots of people claiming WFB is "just tolkienesque fantasy" but the influences really do come from more than just Tolkien.) and yeah, Norman influences to finish it off.
I'd say High Elves were second most popular after Greenskins for Fantasy - they made 2/5 starters to the Greenskins 3/5.
Lol, when your big argument is "IT'S A BUFFALO GUYS, NOT A COW, STOP SAYING ITS A COW!!!!" it sorta says it all.
I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not addressing the merits of it. But it is a cow, and it only makes someone look foolish to get mad because people don't give the Ymetrican Longhorn the due its Copyrightable Doublename deserves.
yukishiro1 wrote: Lol, when your big argument is "IT'S A BUFFALO GUYS, NOT A COW, STOP SAYING ITS A COW!!!!" it sorta says it all.
I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not addressing the merits of it. But it is a cow, and it only makes someone look foolish to get mad because people don't give the Ymetrican Longhorn the due its Copyrightable Doublename deserves.
Being as I've never been interested in AoS, I'd never seen this model before, but, looking at it now...
Definitely looks like a Eldar got a little too friendly with some form of bovine.
Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.
For one thing, there's no clear "standout" factions. As much as people loooooooove to talk balance for Infinity...they're blowing smoke. It's just as unbalanced when it comes to gameplay, releases, etc. Just for whatever reason it's glossed over all the time.
Fascinating that you say that about Infinity. It doesn't seem to be accurate. Glad you've found a game you can enjoy though.
This part is a bit of an outlier though. Tohaa are still regarded as a garbage faction, as far as I'm aware, even with updated points and rules. Acon's power level scales with the fact that a good chunk of its items also are in Varuna or Military Orders.
Nah, people are winning tournaments and leagues with Tohaa, to the point where Vaul's got a bug up his ass about it. And Acon doesn't share many units with the other PanO sectorials, so you're off base on that one.
MRRF is also very viable right now, a friend has been labbing it lately.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.
Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.
Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.
Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.
Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.
On the contrary, I think that the discussion of other war games was about possible alternatives to 40K given the waning interest caused by Space Marines.
" Are you being bothered by metal men ? Are battle cattle mooing ? Come and join up with me today ! "
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Kanluwen wrote: It's "unrelatable to many" because in this day and age, people keep relying on garbage like Reddit or "lorehammer" videos.
FFS, in the initial preview video that had the Alarith? They did an in-depth lore bit, which even talked about the "Ymetrican Longhorn Buffalo" being the inspiration for the construct bodies. Yet people kept parroting the garbage spewed by neckbeards who just wanna hate on everything that isn't their precious Old World.
I can get why you get fed up with people saying you are bad or whatever description they use for you loving AoS lore. I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards " I hardly see how two wrongs make a right in this instance. I gave the lore of AoS a try and I didn't really care for it, even I understand it. Not my taste, and I don't consider myself a garbage spewing neckbeard because I don't like it. For me, it's too over the top for me to enjoy, though for those that do more power to them. I'm just saying, attacking people who like old world and don't like AoS doesn't really earn anything aside from more people happy to pick on it.
Yeah but at least Lumineth are a breath of fresh air regarding elfs, like it or not the models are awesome and its something that it was never seen, and are also getting another update soon
I think it's fine not to like the aesthetic of the Lumineth. I like some of it, but the extremely over the top helmets are off putting to me and I think some of the designs for the weapons are silly.
But yeah, it's good to have another Elf Aesthetic on the market. I've put together a small force of Wood, High and Dark elves using a variety of manufacturers, and that will definitely be enough for me going forward.
You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.
I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards "
I'm pretty sure he's specifically calling the people who spew inaccurate nonsense without reading the lore, that other people who haven't read the lore latch onto, and it all becomes a meme. "garbage spewing neckbeards". Don't think he has any problem with people who merely like the old world.
I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards "
I'm pretty sure he's specifically calling the people who spew inaccurate nonsense without reading the lore, that other people who haven't read the lore latch onto, and it all becomes a meme. "garbage spewing neckbeards". Don't think he has any problem with people who merely like the old world.
It's kinda hard to find the initial interest to read the lore when you're not interested in the game and/or the miniatures. And it's awkward to get upset when someone writes "cow" instead of "buffalo".
dhallnet wrote: You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.
That's your opinion. Mine is that the reason I never ever ever got interested in WHFB even one tiny bit was I looked at it and went "yep. I know exactly what all that is. I've seen all of it a million times before, with the exception of a couple armies like Lizardmen and Skaven that have some legitimately interesting ideas. I know Shiny Knight on Horse. That is Vampire with Skeletons. That there is Dwarf with Hammer, and if I look for a minute - yep, there it is, Dwarf With Axe. Elf With Bow, Dragon, Dark Elf With Squiggly Dagger, the gang's all here."
40k was interesting to me because of its absurdity, because it had Space Warrior With Big Armor but...is he holding a sword and shield like a medieval fething knight? And is his sword also a chainsaw? I had played Flames of War with my dad, but when middle school me walked into my friend's house and the game they were playing looked like world war 2 soldiers fighting elves with laser guns whose nastiest scariest unit was...clowns? I was IMMEDIATELY sold.
Sure, fantasy doesn't need to be designed. It can be completely traditional forever, we can have invented dwarves with axes and elves with bows and medieval humans with swords and orks and goblins and trolls and ents and that is plenty of things, you could make models and games with those things in them forever with no real problem. Fantasy can be like zelda games were forever and ever, where the only real questions you had were "I wonder whether this time around I'll get the bombs first or the boomerang first?"
but I kind of like it when a fantasy setting goes all...fantastical on you. "These elves got really sick of the endless forces of evil and darkness coming and pillaging their magical cities and burning down their sacred forests, so they set up huge bubble dome cities under the ocean using their magic. Nice ravening hordes loser, hope you brought submarines." "These dwarves who always seem to be devising technological devices and gizmos that never really progress beyond the medieval setting have had a couple centuries to progress, and they've got guns and flying cities."
To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined.
dhallnet wrote: You're using pretty strong words which are reducing your point to "It's new so it's good and it's old so it's bad".
Ok.
Those old design are what managed to carry them up to this point. They just need to be modernised, not completely changed with space wales fighting on the battlefield "because space magic !".
Sister's designs are also from the 90's and it looks like one of the most popular range right now.
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
I was talking about Eldar designs and how old != bad.
Ofc everyone have their own taste.
And about "To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined", there are multiple kinds of "fantasy" just as there are multiple kinds of "SciFi". These aren't monolithic genres and there was space for more magically, weird stuff in warhammer fantasy anyway (and some existed), they just couldn't be arsed to do them. Which is ok, what's done is done.
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
Also, freaking resin
Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
Also, freaking resin
Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.
i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
Also, freaking resin
Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.
i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.
It's mainly because of the pilot and the gunner (mainly the gunner), to get every weapons options and a build that make a bit more sense. There is a lot of space on these old sprues.
And it could be unified with DE/Harlies designs (or not, not a huge deal as far as I'm concerned).
I was talking about Eldar designs and how old != bad.
Ofc everyone have their own taste.
And about "To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined", there are multiple kinds of "fantasy" just as there are multiple kinds of "SciFi". These aren't monolithic genres and there was space for more magically, weird stuff in warhammer fantasy anyway (and some existed), they just couldn't be arsed to do them. Which is ok, what's done is done.
Honestly I wish eldar designs would go back to being crazier. They're extremely restrained now compared to what the Eldar were working with in the super early sculpts. The Jes Goodwin RT Farseer, the models wearing fancy lapelled david bowie V-neck leather jackets over space armor (throwback to when calling eldar armor "mesh" actually made sense!)
I recently got to resurrect a ton of ancient old harlequin models that had been carved up, probably by some kid in the 1990s who wanted to kitbash his models for whatever was the meta weaponry at the time, and it's incredible how safe every new eldar sculpt since I've started playing has been compared to even the most basic models from the RT era. The designers are like
"We want to refresh Wraithguard for the modern age, and we have this idea that some wraithguard are fething CRAZY and they give them giant swords and axes and they go bezerk and chop up enemy soldiers in fountains of gore because they're just so angry about their own deaths..."
"Well OK, but make sure each and every sword and axe looks exactly the same, make sure the shield is identical to the dire avenger shield because we have to keep lore consistency, and their poses have to be extremely bland and simple. No battle damage, definitely nothing that would suggest any of that craziness you mentioned, just keep them perfect and smooth and consistent and well-branded."
Meanwhile, I've got a beheaded version of the crewman from the heavy weapon platform and I decided to give him a Scourge head since that looked good with the model and I didn't have his original head in the lot, and I realized if I wanted to paint him up like David Bowie in the Ziggy Stardust outfit I didn't actually have to do anything to convert him to look like that, because he was already wearing that crazy 1980s deep v-neck space jumpsuit. Jes pre-wackied up the miniature for me.
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
Also, freaking resin
Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.
i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.
Pilots. Most eldar vehicle designs are solid. But crew is an issue. The same was true with the jetbikes when they were replaced. The original plastic jetbikes weren't bad, but the pilots were (I know I converted mine and replaced them with newer guardians).
Eldar vehicle design is stellar, it's proof of how ahead of their time they were that they still hold up 25 years later. It doesn't mean they couldn't do with a redo, with more detail or more multi-pose...how about actual ailerons on them, they're big enough to have poseable ones.Or less completely flat surfaces on the underside etc.
I think we agree.
I like the new wraith sculpts but there is always this feeling that it's missing something, that it's a little too bland. And it's partially due to the poses and that uniformity.
As how all the farseers since 4th looks the same while warlocks all have their own thing going on (all but one got released before these farseers).
I'm not super fond of the oldest designs though, like how the tanks were in SM/TL for example.I much prefer how they were redesigned by FW. The cone heads with weird mouths are also something I wouldn't mind not seeing again.
I think every army needs to focus on the things that need updating THE MOST.
So I don't object to a Vyper up date for the sake of improved pilots and gunners and weapon options. But I would rather see all resin models in the army redone in plastic first, because they need it more.
The most essential update right now is Striking Scorpions, because they are the only non-plastic Aspect that can be used in BOTH 40k and Kill Team. In fact, the Scorpions should debut as a Kill Team, kinda like the Kellermorph and Manipulus did- it would build on what little momentum was gained in the poorly managed Kill Team reboot, and maybe get Kill Team back to where it should be.
The next Warhammer Quest game set in 40k should have a heavy Eldar focus in order to fill out the range with new and interesting Elite character models. It'll be a while before we get one of these though- likely not until Q3 or Q4 of 2022 (I think that's roughly the speed of the delay between Harrenhall and BSF).
You can't interest people in one single updated unit when they think the whole range has issues though. They would probably have more chances with a complete new entry.
PenitentJake wrote: The most essential update right now is Striking Scorpions, because they are the only non-plastic Aspect that can be used in BOTH 40k and Kill Team. In fact, the Scorpions should debut as a Kill Team
GW do seem fond at the moment of selling double faction packs - drazhar and jain zar, the new piety and pain box. Makes you wonder if they have units like the aspect warriors stretched out over a year or more paired against other model updates.
I would say however you don't earn any allies by then calling people who like the old world " garbage spewing neckbeards "
I'm pretty sure he's specifically calling the people who spew inaccurate nonsense without reading the lore, that other people who haven't read the lore latch onto, and it all becomes a meme. "garbage spewing neckbeards". Don't think he has any problem with people who merely like the old world.
It's kinda hard to find the initial interest to read the lore when you're not interested in the game and/or the miniatures. And it's awkward to get upset when someone writes "cow" instead of "buffalo".
Getting mad at someone because they can't differentiate between a cow and a buffalo, we're obviously the neckbeards in the conversation
You are right in some degree, they are not "bad" models per se, but they are totally out of scale/time with the rest, have you tryed a match eldar vs marine? its like playing two different games
Also, freaking resin
That's due to the very intentional scale creep. Go on photoshop, scale down a primaris to the same 28mm size (give me 28mm or give me death!) as the Eldar, Eldar look far, far less outdated. GW Scale creep is like inflation, the mother of all taxes that devalues your assets and is incredibly hard to effectively hedge against.
Yeah, outside of what has been released since 5/6th (and maybe the wraithlord and warwalker), they need all their infantry and their vehicle (as their sprues are hilarious and vypers need new sculpts) to be brought up to par.
i keep seeing people ask for new vyper sculpts but i never understood why. They don't seem old at all to my eyes and hold up quite well with modern 40k.
Yup vypers still pretty imo, update the Pilots I guess.
Cronch wrote:Eldar vehicle design is stellar, it's proof of how ahead of their time they were that they still hold up 25 years later. It doesn't mean they couldn't do with a redo, with more detail or more multi-pose...how about actual ailerons on them, they're big enough to have poseable ones.Or less completely flat surfaces on the underside etc.
Yup, imo Eldar vehicles are still the best looking in 40k, the Falcon is just a glorious piece of design.
I was talking about Eldar designs and how old != bad.
Ofc everyone have their own taste.
And about "To me, there's something of an inherent contradiction in complaining that a fantasy setting isn't just the things you know and are familiar with endlessly reworked and re-imagined", there are multiple kinds of "fantasy" just as there are multiple kinds of "SciFi". These aren't monolithic genres and there was space for more magically, weird stuff in warhammer fantasy anyway (and some existed), they just couldn't be arsed to do them. Which is ok, what's done is done.
Honestly I wish eldar designs would go back to being crazier. They're extremely restrained now compared to what the Eldar were working with in the super early sculpts. The Jes Goodwin RT Farseer, the models wearing fancy lapelled david bowie V-neck leather jackets over space armor (throwback to when calling eldar armor "mesh" actually made sense!)
I recently got to resurrect a ton of ancient old harlequin models that had been carved up, probably by some kid in the 1990s who wanted to kitbash his models for whatever was the meta weaponry at the time, and it's incredible how safe every new eldar sculpt since I've started playing has been compared to even the most basic models from the RT era. The designers are like
"We want to refresh Wraithguard for the modern age, and we have this idea that some wraithguard are fething CRAZY and they give them giant swords and axes and they go bezerk and chop up enemy soldiers in fountains of gore because they're just so angry about their own deaths..."
"Well OK, but make sure each and every sword and axe looks exactly the same, make sure the shield is identical to the dire avenger shield because we have to keep lore consistency, and their poses have to be extremely bland and simple. No battle damage, definitely nothing that would suggest any of that craziness you mentioned, just keep them perfect and smooth and consistent and well-branded."
Meanwhile, I've got a beheaded version of the crewman from the heavy weapon platform and I decided to give him a Scourge head since that looked good with the model and I didn't have his original head in the lot, and I realized if I wanted to paint him up like David Bowie in the Ziggy Stardust outfit I didn't actually have to do anything to convert him to look like that, because he was already wearing that crazy 1980s deep v-neck space jumpsuit. Jes pre-wackied up the miniature for me.
Hehe.
You know what really bugs me about the Eldar Range? Their "Spirit Walkers". Each one is just a bigger version than the smaller one, with very little variation. A Wraithlord is just a bigger Wraithguard, a Wrath Knight is just a bigger Wraithlord, and all up through the Revenant until the Phantom Titan. Not a lot of variation going on with those. Call me crazy but I prefer the "Big Head" Wraithlord/Eldar Dreadnought over the current design almost entirely because it looks different than the rest of the 'spirit walker' crew.
You know what's funny? To me, it's the wraithknight that drops the ball, and the current wraithlord conveys exactly the design I want.
Wraithlords, by their shape, convey exactly what the designers of the object are trying to do:
Protect one single vital point: the head. Everything else is incredibly lean, slender, and focused on simply giving the dead warrior in the machine the body shape that they're used to piloting. It's the complete inverse of the brutalist design of the space marine dreadnought, which wonderfully conveys the body horror of the setting by the way it shows that the imperium honors its greatest heroes by trapping them in what is essentially just a murder box, capable of violence in simple, inelegant ways and that's. it.
The head is larger and out of proportion because it's the only piece that actually needs to contain any "vital organs". the torso is just a thing to tie the arms and legs to, so it can be small. And unlike the humans in the setting, the eldar don't seem to care nearly as much about projecting beefed-up massively overexaggerated masculine strength to the detriment of the functionality of their designs.
Except for the abs sculpted onto literally every piece of armor they make, but that just ties into my "every Eldar just has massively yoked shredded abs naturally without ever doing a single sit-up, that's just what they look like" headcanon.
The designers of the wraithknight completely threw all that out the window and made the wraithknight have a big stupid puffed-out chest.
The other ball-dropping RE: Wraithknight is that it costs CP for the Detachment required to field it. Imperial Knights have ways to get around that, but Eldar don't.
the_scotsman wrote: You know what's funny? To me, it's the wraithknight that drops the ball, and the current wraithlord conveys exactly the design I want.
Wraithlords, by their shape, convey exactly what the designers of the object are trying to do:
Protect one single vital point: the head. Everything else is incredibly lean, slender, and focused on simply giving the dead warrior in the machine the body shape that they're used to piloting. It's the complete inverse of the brutalist design of the space marine dreadnought, which wonderfully conveys the body horror of the setting by the way it shows that the imperium honors its greatest heroes by trapping them in what is essentially just a murder box, capable of violence in simple, inelegant ways and that's. it.
The head is larger and out of proportion because it's the only piece that actually needs to contain any "vital organs". the torso is just a thing to tie the arms and legs to, so it can be small. And unlike the humans in the setting, the eldar don't seem to care nearly as much about projecting beefed-up massively overexaggerated masculine strength to the detriment of the functionality of their designs.
Except for the abs sculpted onto literally every piece of armor they make, but that just ties into my "every Eldar just has massively yoked shredded abs naturally without ever doing a single sit-up, that's just what they look like" headcanon.
The designers of the wraithknight completely threw all that out the window and made the wraithknight have a big stupid puffed-out chest.
??
The wraithlord has a similar chest. I'm having a hard time conceptualizing the WK without it.
PenitentJake wrote: The other ball-dropping RE: Wraithknight is that it costs CP for the Detachment required to field it. Imperial Knights have ways to get around that, but Eldar don't.
Knights are an army unto themselves, Wraithknights aren't.
And who's to say where/what will happen with the next Eldar/Knight books.
I think you guys are confused. The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
TBH, I would totally buy Kangaroo riders to convert into guard rough riders.
PenitentJake wrote: The other ball-dropping RE: Wraithknight is that it costs CP for the Detachment required to field it. Imperial Knights have ways to get around that, but Eldar don't.
Knights are an army unto themselves, Wraithknights aren't.
And who's to say where/what will happen with the next Eldar/Knight books.
did monoliths/tesseract arc get special rules that remove their CP cost and loss of access to their Dynastic bonuses?
PenitentJake wrote: The other ball-dropping RE: Wraithknight is that it costs CP for the Detachment required to field it. Imperial Knights have ways to get around that, but Eldar don't.
Knights are an army unto themselves, Wraithknights aren't.
And who's to say where/what will happen with the next Eldar/Knight books.
did monoliths/tesseract arc get special rules that remove their CP cost and loss of access to their Dynastic bonuses?
No, lords of war were last edition. Elite infantry is this edition. you're not supposed to play the last edition's stuff in the new edition, your'e supposed to buy new stuff.
5th edtiion: Transports. You gotta buy a transport for every squad, or else the unit evaporates instantaneously. Every squad you buy, you gotta buy a razorback or a trukk or a raider or a venom or whatever to....theoretically carry it around, but in practice you just leave all your lovingly painted infantry off the side of the table and they only show up on the game board for one turn.
6th edition: Flyers and fortifications
7th edition: Units that GW put in formations
8th edition: Allies, superheavies, and light infantry
9th edition: Elite infantry, and also now you have to expand those allies into full armies or else they suck.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
TBH, I would totally buy Kangaroo riders to convert into guard rough riders.
Hey I got bits from the vanari dawn riders to make shining spears... Those helmets are ace.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
You have CWE ? Sweet.. WHat craftworld do you collect?
the_scotsman wrote: You know what's funny? To me, it's the wraithknight that drops the ball, and the current wraithlord conveys exactly the design I want.
Wraithlords, by their shape, convey exactly what the designers of the object are trying to do:
Protect one single vital point: the head.
I would have thought that would make for a larger, more armored head like the old model. *shrug*
I can somewhat relate to the OP's sentiment, obviously Marines are GW posterboys but by now it's getting dizzying. Back in the day Marines had Tactical, Devestator and Assault Marines, now we have all sorts of units with cumbersome titles fullfilling every kind of mechanical and narrative niche that GW can find. At this rate it's becoming impossible for other factions not to intrude on Space Marine territory, because they cover an ever broader spectrum.
PenitentJake wrote: The other ball-dropping RE: Wraithknight is that it costs CP for the Detachment required to field it. Imperial Knights have ways to get around that, but Eldar don't.
That's not an Eldar problem, that's a problem with LoWs in general and gw's handling of the SHAD. Eldar shouldn't have to pay CP for their LoWs, but neither should anyone else.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
TBH, I would totally buy Kangaroo riders to convert into guard rough riders.
Hey I got bits from the vanari dawn riders to make shining spears... Those helmets are ace.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
You have CWE ? Sweet.. WHat craftworld do you collect?
All my Eldar are based around my original Harlequin collection - my dark eldar mainly are me wanting a wider variety of options for my Harlequins and thinking it's silly that a Dark Eldar would leave Comorragh to join the harlequins and wouldn't bring with them the weaponry they were used to using and the biological modifications that are the norm in the dark city, so they're heavily converted to look like Harlequins using dark eldar technology. For my Eldar I read about Craftworld Lugganath being a craftworld trying to find a webway portal big enough to leave realspace entirely, who frequently work with corsairs and harlequins to make that goal happen. A lot of my aspect warriors incorporate diamond patterns and harlequins symbols into their armor as tokens of respect for the battles they've fought alongside the harlequins, and my guardian core is heavily storm guardian based with a lot of kabalite bits to make them look like quasi-corsairs.
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dan2026 wrote: Updating one more Aspect in plastic would be completely pointless.
A good 80% of the Eldar range needs a update if its actually going to be a viable army for people to collect.
Guardians, Rangers, even Dire Avengers need an update. In addion to all the Aspects except Banshees.
Eldar are so freaking far behind in releases, its all or nothing at this point.
Are Eldar the only faction with finecast troops at this point? 2/4 of their troop options are finecast. Heck, one of them is a freaking finecast conversion kit.
the_scotsman wrote: Are Eldar the only faction with finecast troops at this point? 2/4 of their troop options are finecast. Heck, one of them is a freaking finecast conversion kit.
All of the non-HQ inquisition units are finecast. Both models.
I thought it was just the rangers that are resin? Guardians, dire avengers, and bikes are all plastic these days aren't they?
the_scotsman wrote: Are Eldar the only faction with finecast troops at this point? 2/4 of their troop options are finecast. Heck, one of them is a freaking finecast conversion kit.
All of the non-HQ inquisition units are finecast. Both models.
I thought it was just the rangers that are resin? Guardians, dire avengers, and bikes are all plastic these days aren't they?
Bikes aren't troops, the fourth is a mixed kit : storm guardians.
Come to think of It, GW really missed their chance to make the 9th edition a full reboot for the hobby, rather I'd mostly ended up being a slick marketing campaign and a boatload of Marine releases that only obfuscates what said factions stands for or has to offer to a new player.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
TBH, I would totally buy Kangaroo riders to convert into guard rough riders.
Hey I got bits from the vanari dawn riders to make shining spears... Those helmets are ace.
Argive wrote: I think you guys are confused.
The bar is set so low the CWE fanbase would be content with aspects and PL + AOK being remade in plastic...
We KNOW there is going to be no new stuff... And if it is new stuff it will be at the expense of old stuff we love and it will end up like Kangoroo riders and Mooountain mans... No thanks..
Who's we, can I have Kangaroo riders for my CWE?
You have CWE ? Sweet.. WHat craftworld do you collect?
All my Eldar are based around my original Harlequin collection - my dark eldar mainly are me wanting a wider variety of options for my Harlequins and thinking it's silly that a Dark Eldar would leave Comorragh to join the harlequins and wouldn't bring with them the weaponry they were used to using and the biological modifications that are the norm in the dark city, so they're heavily converted to look like Harlequins using dark eldar technology. For my Eldar I read about Craftworld Lugganath being a craftworld trying to find a webway portal big enough to leave realspace entirely, who frequently work with corsairs and harlequins to make that goal happen. A lot of my aspect warriors incorporate diamond patterns and harlequins symbols into their armor as tokens of respect for the battles they've fought alongside the harlequins, and my guardian core is heavily storm guardian based with a lot of kabalite bits to make them look like quasi-corsairs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dan2026 wrote: Updating one more Aspect in plastic would be completely pointless.
A good 80% of the Eldar range needs a update if its actually going to be a viable army for people to collect.
Guardians, Rangers, even Dire Avengers need an update. In addion to all the Aspects except Banshees.
Eldar are so freaking far behind in releases, its all or nothing at this point.
Are Eldar the only faction with finecast troops at this point? 2/4 of their troop options are finecast. Heck, one of them is a freaking finecast conversion kit.
Nice fluff.
My homebrew craftworld is all about recovering real space territory and then attempt to break into the black library to get some OG tech back. Theres gotta be some way to resist slanesh right ? :p
PenitentJake wrote: I think every army needs to focus on the things that need updating THE MOST.
So I don't object to a Vyper up date for the sake of improved pilots and gunners and weapon options. But I would rather see all resin models in the army redone in plastic first, because they need it more.
That's the entire army, if we're honest. Realistically speaking, the wraiths and knight and warwalker (and banshees and Jain) will stay, but everything prior to that must be replaced. Yes, including the lovely but now showing it's age Falcon. Without that, you're just throwing good money after rotting corpse of an army.
Part of the problem is that Jes' initial 2ed design worked so well everyone's been terrified of going out of it's comfort zone. Eldar have been locked in aesthetically so much that there's no space for new units that don't just look like more of the same. Aspects are just guardians with fancy headdress and special weapons (or big backpacks in case of spiders), all wraiths look the same, and all the HQ looks like coneheads in bathrobes.
It's a good starting point, but there must be some divergence to open up new units and design philosophies.
Cronch wrote: That's the entire army, if we're honest. Realistically speaking, the wraiths and knight and warwalker (and banshees and Jain) will stay, but everything prior to that must be replaced. Yes, including the lovely but now showing it's age Falcon. Without that, you're just throwing good money after rotting corpse of an army.
Assuming they kept the recent 6e stuff (flyers, etc) that would be around a dozen squad boxes of various types (including bikes, warlocks, support weapons, etc), half a dozen vehcle/walker/MC kits, and about a dozen character kits.
So 30-ish releases of which around two-thirds are big multipart kits.
Cronch wrote: That's the entire army, if we're honest. Realistically speaking, the wraiths and knight and warwalker (and banshees and Jain) will stay, but everything prior to that must be replaced. Yes, including the lovely but now showing it's age Falcon. Without that, you're just throwing good money after rotting corpse of an army.
Assuming they kept the recent 6e stuff (flyers, etc) that would be around a dozen squad boxes of various types (including bikes, warlocks, support weapons, etc), half a dozen vehcle/walker/MC kits, and about a dozen character kits.
So 30-ish releases of which around two-thirds are big multipart kits.
That is what happens when you completely neglect updating an army while making multiple new generations of space marine kits.
And there are multiple armies in this state at this point, tho not as bad as Eldar.
So 30-ish releases of which around two-thirds are big multipart kits.
Perfect chance to consolidate it into kits that make multiple unit types. And maybe cut some, as heretical as it sounds. If swooping hawks are gone, maybe warp spiders can be now slightly better. If Spiders are gone, maybe the swooping hawks can be buffed to not be useless. Shining spears god bless them never really seemed to fit that well. Combine warlocks, farseers and spiritseers and bonesingers into one box with 5 models giving you option for 5 warlocks or 5 different chars.
Ordana wrote: That is what happens when you completely neglect updating an army while making multiple new generations of space marine kits.
And there are multiple armies in this state at this point, tho not as bad as Eldar.
Gets worse as the faction gets larger. Eldar are what, 4-5 times the size of secondary faction releases like the sisters and genestealer cults? And that's before GW add new models.
So 30-ish releases of which around two-thirds are big multipart kits.
Perfect chance to consolidate it into kits that make multiple unit types. And maybe cut some, as heretical as it sounds. If swooping hawks are gone, maybe warp spiders can be now slightly better. If Spiders are gone, maybe the swooping hawks can be buffed to not be useless. Shining spears god bless them never really seemed to fit that well. Combine warlocks, farseers and spiritseers and bonesingers into one box with 5 models giving you option for 5 warlocks or 5 different chars.
If the goal was simply to get the whole range in plastic and not modernise everything right now in order to have a manageable release (outside of the really old plastics) :
Shining spears could be dealt with a single sprue, we don't need new jetbikes.
Kinda the same with guardians and dire avengers, a base kit + a sprue dedicated to make a variant (kinda meh but eh...)
Same for tanks : base falcon + specific sprues for variants.
And that character box is never going to happen, unless you're ready to spend 100+ € (plastic spiritseer and farseer cost 20+). But we actually really need just a warlock box.
The only units that would require their own tools are rangers and aspects. But they would probably end up on smaller sprues (or rather a single one per) so it's not impossible.
Ah and vypers but they could, maybe, even rebox the venom with an upgrade.
In the end it would be a lot of boxes, yes, but not that many sprues I think.
Caradman Sturnn wrote: Come to think of It, GW really missed their chance to make the 9th edition a full reboot for the hobby, rather I'd mostly ended up being a slick marketing campaign and a boatload of Marine releases that only obfuscates what said factions stands for or has to offer to a new player.
2 full reboot in a row would be too much even for GW
dhallnet wrote: In the end it would be a lot of boxes, yes, but not that many sprues I think.
Banshees are three sprues. Using them as a guide -
Three for aspects, guardians and hawks would probably need four - so twenty sprues of infantry total.
Support weapons, one or two sprues including crew.
Two sprues for shining spears, one sprue a piece for yriel and each of the phoenix lords for another six.
Probably two double sprues for the falcon hull and two more for turrets for four double sprues total.
A double sprue each for the wraithlord, warwalker, viper
And then an indeterminate number for remaining character models and wargear options.
So a fair number with the way GW are making them at the moment. It's all fixed poses with matching arms/legs/torsos, not interchangeable bits like the old kits.
dhallnet wrote: In the end it would be a lot of boxes, yes, but not that many sprues I think.
Banshees are three sprues. Using them as a guide -
Three for aspects, guardians and hawks would probably need four - so twenty sprues of infantry total.
Support weapons, one or two sprues including crew.
Two sprues for shining spears, one sprue a piece for yriel and each of the phoenix lords for another six.
Probably two double sprues for the falcon hull and two more for turrets for four double sprues total.
A double sprue each for the wraithlord, warwalker, viper
And then an indeterminate number for remaining character models and wargear options.
So a fair number with the way GW are making them at the moment. It's all fixed poses with matching arms/legs/torsos, not interchangeable bits like the old kits.
Oof I thought banshees were 2 smaller sprues.
And forgot about phoenix lords, named characters and the avatar ^^
A box of jetbikes is 3 bikes, so I don't think they would need two sprues for shining spears unless the windriders sprues aren't re usable ? (bought mine built second hand so I don't know - Edit : just checked, looks like only the riders would be required). Same for hawks I don't think that much would be required, but it's bordering nit picking, there definitely are more stuff than I had in mind.
Support weapon, war walkers and wraith units can be left alone for a bit longer though. Not even sure they all need to be touched up at all.
One of the major issues with updating kits that are 'old' is... simply that many people already have that kit to make their army function, despite its age. Either they got it long ago and have held onto it since then, or got it more recently to complete their force.
It's harder to sell those people on an updated kit that they already own. That's 99% of the reason Primaris became a thing. Instead of selling people updated Space Marine kits that they already have, create a whole slew of new space marines.
The issue is that now we have too many space marines.
drbored wrote: One of the major issues with updating kits that are 'old' is... simply that many people already have that kit to make their army function, despite its age. Either they got it long ago and have held onto it since then, or got it more recently to complete their force.
It's harder to sell those people on an updated kit that they already own.
Tell this to DE/SOB/Necron, they seem not aware ^^ (and updating a range brings new players)
That's 99% of the reason Primaris became a thing. Instead of selling people updated Space Marine kits that they already have, create a whole slew of new space marines.
The issue is that now we have too many space marines.
Primaris are a thing because there was nothing to update in marines, they were mostly current kits.
dhallnet wrote: A box of jetbikes is 3 bikes, so I don't think they would need two sprues for shining spears unless the windriders sprues aren't re usable ? (bought mine built second hand so I don't know - Edit : just checked, looks like only the riders would be required). Same for infantry I don't think that much would be required, but it's bordering nit picking, there definitely are more stuff than I had in mind.
Support weapon, war walkers and wraith units can be left alone for a bit longer though. Not even sure they all need to be touched up at all.
Jetbikes - the two sprues were one for the regular bikers (multiples per box), and one for the exarch. A bike and rider on each sprue. I don't see GW making them an upgrade pack for an older model unless they redo the other bikes at the same time as well.
Guardians were based on needing the same three sprues as banshees (and comparable units - i.e. admech) - and that's three sprues including all options for different types of guardians. The fourth sprue was for the heavy weapon platform. Change the guardians and you need to change the support weapons to match but it's only one more sprue.
A.T. wrote: Jetbikes - the two sprues were one for the regular bikers (multiples per box), and one for the exarch. A bike and rider on each sprue. I don't see GW making them an upgrade pack for an older model unless they redo the other bikes at the same time as well.
What I meant was that a shining spear box could be a windrider box + a sprue for the new riders. It's 4 lances and 4 small elves after all. But maybe it would require more.
Guardians were based on needing the same three sprues as banshees (and comparable units - i.e. admech) - and that's three sprues including all options for different types of guardians. The fourth sprue was for the heavy weapon platform. Change the guardians and you need to change the support weapons to match but it's only one more sprue.
It's just the nature of the faction.
Forgot the platform was bundled with the guardians nowadays xD
And yeah, there is a lot of stuff even if we keep to the minimum.
One of the major issues with updating kits that are 'old' is... simply that many people already have that kit to make their army function, despite its age. Either they got it long ago and have held onto it since then, or got it more recently to complete their force.
It's harder to sell those people on an updated kit that they already own. That's 99% of the reason Primaris became a thing. Instead of selling people updated Space Marine kits that they already have, create a whole slew of new space marines.
It's a bit different from Space Marines as a lot of Space Marines were already in plastic that had been upgraded a few times already so upgrading those would be less of a jump for most players whereas going from ancient resin/metal to plastic is a huge leap. It's why sisters are selling quite well as they were a fully metal/resin line except for the rhino chassis. When the updated Windriders came out they sold very well and many were converting them to Shining Spears as the models just looked better than the old ones.
Not to mention that the updated models look fantastic. I bought plastic Drazhar and Jain-zar because they were fantastic models despite me owning the old ones. Hell, I bought ton of the new windriders despite owning a decent collection of the older ones I think people are underestimating how old the current CW units look on the table and how they are very much likely keeping people from starting a CW army and how much older players want a visual update.
A more likely reason is that GW slept on their guard and now Third Party has swooped in on the market and GW is in a bind on how to address that.
New wind riders are awesome. And like those, I would have added restartes in with my collection of OG marines if they would have been released as simply updated OG marines. GW stepped on their own toes going the way they did, because I will never own a restartes.
There are a few space marine kits that we were expecting to be updated. Scouts, a large number of characters, the Techmarine, servitors, thunderfire cannon, not to mention the Rhino that GW seems determined to milk till it's long dead. They even reused the same rhino chassis for the sisters of battle and wow does it show its age.
But we got primaris, and that's all fine and dandy, but then we got more primaris, and mroe primaris, and moar primaris... and now I'm considering selling my primaris.
drbored wrote: There are a few space marine kits that we were expecting to be updated. Scouts, a large number of characters, the Techmarine, servitors, thunderfire cannon, not to mention the Rhino that GW seems determined to milk till it's long dead. They even reused the same rhino chassis for the sisters of battle and wow does it show its age.
But we got primaris, and that's all fine and dandy, but then we got more primaris, and mroe primaris, and moar primaris... and now I'm considering selling my primaris.
I'd add to that the Terminators. I kinda hate those kits. The new Chaos ones look great, imo.
jeff white wrote: New wind riders are awesome. And like those, I would have added restartes in with my collection of OG marines if they would have been released as simply updated OG marines. GW stepped on their own toes going the way they did, because I will never own a restartes.
So, you'd thrown away money straight into garbage bin to replace an unit you already have with almost identical, slightly refreshed copy of it...
But getting new, much better looking unit that keeps faction aesthetic and fills new role/gives you new tactical options is somehow bad?
What a genius idea. Why that quote about a kid frostbiting nose off to spite mom comes to mind?
jeff white wrote: New wind riders are awesome. And like those, I would have added restartes in with my collection of OG marines if they would have been released as simply updated OG marines. GW stepped on their own toes going the way they did, because I will never own a restartes.
So, you'd thrown away money straight into garbage bin to replace an unit you already have with almost identical, slightly refreshed copy of it...
But getting new, much better looking unit that keeps faction aesthetic and fills new role/gives you new tactical options is somehow bad?
A: Your adjectives, not his.
B: Yes. . . because their lore is dumb and their units are dumb.
jeff white wrote: New wind riders are awesome. And like those, I would have added restartes in with my collection of OG marines if they would have been released as simply updated OG marines. GW stepped on their own toes going the way they did, because I will never own a restartes.
So, you'd thrown away money straight into garbage bin to replace an unit you already have with almost identical, slightly refreshed copy of it...
Can't speak for Jeff White, but I don't think buying more of a unit is "throwing money straight into the garbage bin" it's just "building the rest of 3rd company."
Unless you've already bought a full chapter worth of marines, or 5000 guardsmen, there's always room to grow.
I'm using the GW store as a benchmark for current kits
53 entries on GW site
-6 books/ebooks/cards (47)
-2 Start Collecting or Army deals (45)
-2 Upgrade frames (43)
-5 dual kit entries (eg, Crimson Hunter & Hemlock) (38)
+1 missing kit (Wave Serpent...) (39)
Of those, the following can be left untouched:
- Jain Zar
- Howling Banshees
- Spiritseer
- Farseer
- Wraithguard/blades
- Wraithlord
- Wraithknight
- Windriders
- Crimson Hunter / Hemlock Wraithfighter
- Farseer/Warlock Skyrunner
- War Walker
- Plastic Eldrad
- Webway Gate
That's 13 out of 39 that are fine, or 1/3 of the field, by my reckoning.
Falcon/Wave Serpent/Fire Prism/Night Spinner are an interesting set of 3 kits. The base Falcon probably needs a recut, with updated crew and the hull shuriken cannon added, as I don't think it is there are the moment. The actual Fire Prism/Night Spinner upgrade sprue looks fine, though I've not tried to put one together.
I'd argue the Vyper is in the same boat - give it a recut for the same base design, but with updated crew & making sure the weapons are all included on the sprue.
I'm not convinced a new DA kit is needed - I'd rather just see them go back to a 10 Elf box. Again, I haven't built/painted any of these, but they look solid.
What're we looking at for the remaining 21 items?
- Autarch w/wings
- Autarch on jetbike
- 5 Phoenix Lords
- 2 other special characters (Yriel & Illic)
- Individual Warlock, plus Warlock/Farseer group.
- Rangers
- Reapers, Hawks, Scorpions, Dragons, Spiders
- Shining Spears
- Guardians (ideally to fold in Storm Guardians with more efficient sprues)
- Support Weapon (if the base Guardian design changes significantly - looks OK otherwise)
- Avatar of Khaine
The Avatar needs to be a GD-scale kit, not really going to argue there.
There's 7 special characters as clampacks (with a potential +1 for a Shining Spear Phoenix Lord), along wih 2 or 3 Autarch options. I'd rather see a box for Warlocks on Foot than clampacks - maybe four or five, with spear & witch blade options?
Shining Spears just need an upgrade sprue for the current jetbikes, upgrading or replacing the riders. They are, frankly, the biggest own goal in the CWE line at present, in terms of missed opportunities, as they should've been done when the new jetbikes were.
There are then seven squads to address as boxes - Guardians at the very least need to lose the random split legs and gain Storm Guardian arms in the box, which might not lead to extra sprues, depending on how they get cut.
You might be able to dual-box some of the Aspects, but I'd prefer a box for each to ensure suitable detail on the kit.
I'm a bit surprised at how many people want a new larger scale avatar, isn't that what the forgeworld one is? Just get that, it's not dissimilarly priced from an equivalent plastic one would cost. I have the one with spear and can tell you it's absolutely perfect!
The look of Primais for me is good, I still like the Firstborn units as well though. Their lore, I think sucks a lot and their units feel boring in their set ups. What I loved of units in the game was having war gear options not " Everyone has to have this, or that. " These are personal gripes but I think people underestimate how many would have made new armies of upscaled Marines anyways.
All they did with the different take on it is make people feel they are squatting their armies forcefully and replacing them with dull counter parts that while they may look better to some lack a lot of style and spirit to others. So yeah I have to agree with others they handled it bad imo.
I'd never re buy my whole army again. That is a step too far for me and one of the things I always felt I wouldn't have to do playing warhammer, so them trying to do that to me, if they changed their plans or not has broken a covenant with me personally. Made me question them more and not trust them as perhaps I once did. Which makes me even less likely to buy heavy into primaris as what will happen when everyone has those ? Will they squat them for the new hot ? It's just not a cycle I'd be eager to be a part of.
Where as, simply upgrading the models I'm totally fine with, do it as you can and still use your old, vintage stuff but make it our choice. That shows respect to the customer and makes me value them more for respecting me. As opposed to perhaps feeding me lines to try and screw me later. Lies I can't abide, even if it is a soulless company.
Call me silly but... maybe the secret to milking xenos players would be to make a single vehicle that costs 1.25-2 times the cost in money what a vehicle goes for, but design it to be easily magnetizeable and a single kit to build multiple variants of a vehicle? Imagine taking the concept of a rhino/predator/vindicator, put all 3 in the same box on a single chassis you can magnetize easily to produce all variants, you make more profit over margin, the xenos player gets 3 releases they get to play with that they pay generally less for, and it gets updated... and don’t get me wrong I bet there’s a pile of xenos money begging to be tapped into. GW definitely seems to only give limited releases outside of a once every couple-several years reboot for whoever’s face space marines are punching in the lore? Or would this just piss you off as a xenos because although you have multiple toys to play with in a new release you are paying a huuuuuge premium just to swap transport capacity for a few cannons on the same boring chassis in terms of gameplay? Or am I really silly because they already do this? And I mean for example your 60$ tank now costs 100 but you easily can magnetize a few turrets and mounted weapons/chassis extensions to make some sort of fast attack vehicle, transport or artillery and you have all the bits needed to play with all of these, and between games you can switch the configuration easily? Then you can have many options for relatively less for your army and you can start buying more marines I guess with the savings...
Ielthan wrote: I'm a bit surprised at how many people want a new larger scale avatar, isn't that what the forgeworld one is? Just get that, it's not dissimilarly priced from an equivalent plastic one would cost. I have the one with spear and can tell you it's absolutely perfect!
A lot of people either...
-Don't want to work with resin, because it's a pain, has many flaws, etc...
-Don't want to order from ForgeWorld, because of long shipping times, or unavailability in their country...
I do like the bigger avatar from ForgeWorld, I think it's perfect, but it'd be nice to have that... in plastic.
Ielthan wrote: I'm a bit surprised at how many people want a new larger scale avatar, isn't that what the forgeworld one is? Just get that, it's not dissimilarly priced from an equivalent plastic one would cost. I have the one with spear and can tell you it's absolutely perfect!
Because it would standardize the larger avatar. Currently, if you are using the FW avatar, you would be modelling for disadvantage as he is larger and more visible whereas you'd be paying the points for the smallvatar. Then there is the FW disconnect and the resin issue.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Bigvatar and am glad to have bought it, but it is such a different beast from the GW avatar.
Regarding the avatar issue I think we have a problem as Daughters of Khaine has an Avatar of Khaine in plastic which probably dissuades GW from upgrading a specific kit for Eldar.
Eldarsif wrote: Regarding the avatar issue I think we have a problem as Daughters of Khaine has an Avatar of Khaine in plastic which probably dissuades GW from upgrading a specific kit for Eldar.
Well if I'm not mistaken, considering it's literally the statue from the cauldron of blood released for 8th WFB they decided could double up as something else when they did the DoK, they might be able to afford doing a real one It's not even presented as such anymore on their website.
dhallnet 796396 11075686 wrote:
Tell this to DE/SOB/Necron, they seem not aware ^^ (and updating a range brings new players)
If GW thinks that eldar are making them enough money, they will stay the way they are, if they are really under perform, GW will either reset or squat them and replace with another model line. Also the question with new players for non marine players always boils down to, is the cost of doing that worth the risk and investment. SoBs didn't exist as a model line other then recasts and necron had a plastic line, which few people played in 8th. GW does update armies other then marines, but they never update non marines at the cost of puting out new marines. It is always at the cost of non marine armies, and this will not change until marines stop being the main money maker for GW.
dhallnet 796396 11075686 wrote:
Tell this to DE/SOB/Necron, they seem not aware ^^ (and updating a range brings new players)
If GW thinks that eldar are making them enough money, they will stay the way they are, if they are really under perform, GW will either reset or squat them and replace with another model line.
Eldars doesn't cost them anything anymore outside of the materials used to cast them, particularly when you consider price increases over time. Or you're thinking they're still looking at return on investments on 20+ year olds miniatures ?
Also the question with new players for non marine players always boils down to, is the cost of doing that worth the risk and investment.
Unless they completely miss the mark, it always has been and pretty much always will be risk free since models sells for decades. What it boils down to is how fast they get their money back.
Which is obviously a consideration but we're talking about eldars, if they could do it before for other factions, they can do it for them as they always have been until recently one of the more popular factions.
SoBs didn't exist as a model line other then recasts
The whole range of metal SoB + vehicles has always been available on GWs website.
and necron had a plastic line, which few people played in 8th.
And ? So what you're saying is that since they might still sell because "eldars are always super over powered, duh", they're not interested in remaking them ? So why aren't they remaking at least the models that don't sell. Because I doubt they sold much of anything outside of what has been updated already.
And look, they already started to do it with Banshees. They just need to do it for, I dunno, let's say fifteen other entries, with one every few years, the range might be up to date by... ah well, never since they will have to restart the cycle as soon as they are done updating the current lacking kits. So there will always be a good bunch of unappealing kits in the range, which will then drag down the performance of the whole range. Seems a bit counterproductive.
GW does update armies other then marines, but they never update non marines at the cost of puting out new marines. It is always at the cost of non marine armies, and this will not change until marines stop being the main money maker for GW.
Ok ?
As said times and times over and over, marines can't stop being the main money maker when they are updated as much as they are and this hasn't stopped GW making stuff from the ground up. Nowadays they are actually making more stuff that isn't marines than before while making even more marines than ever by remaking the whole range.
And they don't even need to stop being the leaders of the range, they just need to give space to other products at some point. Which I hope we're going to see after the last few kits are released.
dhallnet wrote: The whole range of metal SoB + vehicles has always been available on GWs website.
GW pulled the sisters box sets from the site in 2010, and they had been off the shelves a while before that. The codex was also discontinued shortly after and (aside from a two month window) you literally could not buy rules for them until a digital-only release at the end of 2013. During that time GW also discontinued the bulk of model variants and forgeworld dropped everything.
The plastic immolator chassis was pulled in 2015. The total sisters metal line was reduced down to:
-eight bolter sisters, four repentia, two seraphim
-six special weapon sisters, four characters
Some of the models were later revived as GW geared up toward the new line but there is a reason why jokes about 'the last three sisters players in the world' and similar were common. Pre-existing players were not going to be GWs target market.
Karol wrote:and necron had a plastic line, which few people played in 8th
If i'm not mistaken the current/ongoing release is actually the first update for the necrons core plastic kits from 2002?
Possible, but from what I understand the line was plastic. the tanks, the units etc were all plastic. I can't judge the characters, because people here buy recasts of those, but even if all were resin too, this is still a largely finish plastic model line comparing to a resin SoB or almost resin eldar one.
A.T. wrote: GW pulled the sisters box sets from the site in 2010, and they had been off the shelves a while before that. The codex was also discontinued shortly after and (aside from a two month window) you literally could not buy rules for them until a digital-only release at the end of 2013. During that time GW also discontinued the bulk of model variants and forgeworld dropped everything.
The plastic immolator chassis was pulled in 2015. The total sisters metal line was reduced down to:
-eight bolter sisters, four repentia, two seraphim
-six special weapon sisters, four characters
Some of the models were later revived as GW geared up toward the new line but there is a reason why jokes about 'the last three sisters players in the world' and similar were common. Pre-existing players were not going to be GWs target market.
Which, as far as I know, isn't much less than they ever had (bought the bulk of mine during the witch hunter release though, so I didn't exactly kept on top of things). There was a few combi weapon sisters (2 ?), banner (1) and superiors (a few) missing afaik from the original range (but not sure they survived the witch hunter codex launch anyway). I also think there were more than 2 seraphims available (I think I bought a box of five from them in 201X, not sure anymore but there was as a bare minimum a superior+normal+special pistols), there also was 2 (?) simulacrum available and crusaders, priests, death cult assassins and probably arco-flag (not sure) too even though not "sisters". Anyway, sure there wasn't much diversity but they weren't "recast only" which was what prompted that answer (but of course, they weren't selling much).
Being one of the "the last few" and not needing them, I didn't know the immolator was removed in 2015. I was under the impression they were still available as I think I also bought a late exorcist at some point (which was a huge mistake btw, never bothered dealing with the combined metal/plastic kit again).
Ok ?
As said times and times over and over, marines can't stop being the main money maker when they are updated as much as they are and this hasn't stopped GW making stuff from the ground up. Nowadays they are actually making more stuff that isn't marines than before while making even more marines than ever by remaking the whole range.
And they don't even need to stop being the leaders of the range, they just need to give space to other products at some point. Which I hope we're going to see after the last few kits are released.
Ok, then I don't understand what eldar players are unhappy about. Besides their armies not having good rules right now. GW does not spend more time updating marines more then they usually do, they do update other factions and from ground up. they just don't seem to see any need to do it with eldar at the start of 9th ed and through out most of 8th. Or do eldar player claim that ad mecha or DG shouldn't have gotten their updated and they should have gotten it instead?
Eldars doesn't cost them anything anymore outside of the materials used to cast them, particularly when you consider price increases over time. Or you're thinking they're still looking at return on investments on 20+ year olds miniatures ?
it costs them in the term of lost possible income. |If they produce something like indomitus, or even its scalper version like honored of the chapter, it will sell and it will sell with larger numbers then trying to sell anything else. And then they have to weight it against the update slots eldar share with other non marine armies. What will make GW more money. A new necron or sob line, which maybe isn't selling at all in its past form, or a new eldar line. And if GW decideds that making new necron or sob will make them more money, then making new eldar, they will update those first. Through out 8th ed eldar seemed to have sold just fine from GW point of view. And if it is fine, then why should they change it. And I don't claim that this makes the eldar player happy, but being angry at it is like being angry at reality.
Which is obviously a consideration but we're talking about eldars, if they could do it before for other factions, they can do it for them as they always have been until recently one of the more popular factions.
well clearly GW decided that updating all the factions they updated in 8th and 9th, other then eldar, would have made them more money. And there were more then a few. Ad mecha got a ton of models, as did knights, new necron, new sob , new DG. Even csm got a good chunk of a new model line, same as demons that share the line with AoS. One can not say that GW did not make new model lines for w40k. They just decided that updating stuff like tau, eldar or d eldar is not profitable enough at given time.
The whole range of metal SoB + vehicles has always been available on GWs website.
considering the cost of a single unit, I would say that SoB made not a very valid army for w40k players. And I think it was even true for people living in countries other my.
So what you're saying is that since they might still sell because "eldars are always super over powered, duh", they're not interested in remaking them ?
well that too. But the fact is that rules do sell the models. I doubt there is much sells being generated by marine scouts right now. Attack bikes on the other hand are popular. So if an army is old, and eldar clearly are an old army when some units are considered, but people still play it because it has powerful rules, and by playing I mean also buying the models, GW is satisifed with that. I don't think they really care how old their model line is or how good their rule sets are. As long as someone goes out and buys 3-5 flyers and 30 dark reapers, and some jetbikers to convert in to shining spears they find it okey enough. Now if line does not sell at all, it is a completly different problem. The question is, what is easier to do for them Update the rules and make people buy the old models again, they can clearly make marine players want to buy attack bikes or venguard vets or old dreadnoughts, or invest time and money to make a new model line. I think the first is easier for them to do, and in many ways, this is what they have done with eldar a few times. They also did the other thing too, from stories I heard when GW updated eldar with new plastic models, the waveserpents, jetbikers and wright knights were selling crazy good. having powerful rules helped with that too of course.
Ielthan wrote: I'm a bit surprised at how many people want a new larger scale avatar, isn't that what the forgeworld one is? Just get that, it's not dissimilarly priced from an equivalent plastic one would cost. I have the one with spear and can tell you it's absolutely perfect!
A lot of people either...
-Don't want to work with resin, because it's a pain, has many flaws, etc...
-Don't want to order from ForgeWorld, because of long shipping times, or unavailability in their country...
I do like the bigger avatar from ForgeWorld, I think it's perfect, but it'd be nice to have that... in plastic.
Agreed, I only want to work in plastic. A plastic avatar would be great.
Karol wrote: Possible, but from what I understand the line was plastic. the tanks, the units etc were all plastic. I can't judge the characters, because people here buy recasts of those, but even if all were resin too, this is still a largely finish plastic model line comparing to a resin SoB or almost resin eldar one.
The core of the cron army from their 2002 line was warriors, desroyers, and monoliths - all plastic. GW didn't touch those in the 5e update that I can remember, just the metal models like wraiths and immortals. Most of the 5e release was new units.
I think only the the old lord and c'tan models were left when finecast arrived.
dhallnet wrote: Which, as far as I know, isn't much less than they ever had
Roughly half the line was squatted.
Gives you some context on the scale of the eldar (and other bigger factions like guard, orks, etc) when comparing the number of kits needed to completely revamp one of these old minor factions as compared to trying to keep a larger faction up to date. The eldar are particularly bad with ten distinct infantry units that all need distinct character models and which just don't share parts.
Do you mean in the time leading to the new release or before they got announced in plastic ? Because my memories really don't mesh with that statement for the era before the announcment (after, I don't think I kept tabs at all on what they were doing with the range).
Anyway, sure the range wasn't varied (but it never really was) and it was an "easy" (comparatively) one to update.
dhallnet wrote: Do you mean in the time leading to the new release or before they got announced in plastic ? Because my memories really don't mesh with that statement for the era before the announcment (after, I don't think I kept tabs at all on what they were doing with the range).
There were a total of 42 unique metal sisters models ever released, six vehicle kits, and for sake of clarity we will leave aside the inquisition and ecclesiarchy elements.
The limited ephrael, site-only seraphim superior, old canoness, old banner, and old immolator were culled in the run up to the 2004 release.
Around 2014 they trimmed down on pose variations for superiors and special weapons (~8 models), and the three forgeworld vehicles became unavailable.
The remainder dried up over the next year or so down to an army of two dozen models, but some were re-added a couple of years back (seraphim superior, dialogus) as GW started to work towards the new line.
-----------------
The player base was so tiny and the line so obsolete GW didn't really have any need to release new units to sell to existing players alongside the rescuplts.
Eldar are not in the same situation - as was mentioned before they actually recieved slightly more models than dark eldar over the past few editions but they have so much to update alongside adding of new models compared to the smaller factions that those updates slip further and further back. Same for other big factions like guard.
Honestly I dont get why they dont give each aspect squad a variant weapon type Intercessor style.
They fit 6x swords and 6x kisses alongside 8 other alternate weapons in the harlequin kit - why couldn't they have done like all-triskele banshees or bring back a weapon that referenced the fact that they used to also have power axes like how the caress references harlequins with powerfists?
Ielthan wrote: I'm a bit surprised at how many people want a new larger scale avatar, isn't that what the forgeworld one is? Just get that, it's not dissimilarly priced from an equivalent plastic one would cost. I have the one with spear and can tell you it's absolutely perfect!
A lot of people either...
-Don't want to work with resin, because it's a pain, has many flaws, etc...
-Don't want to order from ForgeWorld, because of long shipping times, or unavailability in their country...
I do like the bigger avatar from ForgeWorld, I think it's perfect, but it'd be nice to have that... in plastic.
Agreed, I only want to work in plastic. A plastic avatar would be great.
I see, tbh I much prefer high quality resin (not the resin GW uses, but forgeworld, mierce etc.), you seem to get much more natural looking sculpts cast in it, similar to metal models. I'm not really a fan of GW's plastic models in general, the sharpness of the edges on absolutely everything makes them look too toy like to my eyes, and the obsessive addition of "spikey bits" often just looks like overusing cad components to save time in the sculpting process. As someone who uses 3d modelling softwares for work, I look at current gw minis and can see the cad in them, it's like seeing visual effects in films that aren't quite upto scratch and you start thinking about that rather than paying attention to the film. Also I really wish they'd stop trying to sculpt visual effects, it just isn't convincing. Another little thing I've been picking up on a lot is that I get the sense that some of the sculptors they're using are not really artists, but technicians, you can see it in the poses, the balance and contropost is often just not really there, and they end up looking not terrible but kind of off. I thought the new Eldrad was a good example of this, I really doubt some of them are still starting with drawing, but are instead going straight to cad, and it kind of shows.
I much prefer handsculpted models, and the minor imperfections that come with it, just gives them character, a soul if you will indulge me. I get cad allows for some amazing possibilities, but tbh outside of some of the vehicles (though beauties such as the Eldar titans were hand sculpted) I haven't really seen anything from GW that's really sold me on it.
I understand this is a very minority opinion, but until they can cad something that can match the sheer beauty of CMON's Cang the Implacable, or some of the Hasslefree or Claymore castings infantry, or the Perry twins stuff, or Karol Rudyk, I'll remain unconvinced.
P.S. Also some of those gw plastics break bend/snap do damn easily in even good transport cases, very annoying given the prices.
Ok, then I don't understand what eldar players are unhappy about.
Spoiler:
At this point we've been extremely clear about what we complain for. If you're too daft to understand what we mean then please stop bringing your opinion in here since to discuss things, you should really understand the issue.
Ok, then I don't understand what eldar players are unhappy about. Besides their armies not having good rules right now. GW does not spend more time updating marines more then they usually do, they do update other factions and from ground up. they just don't seem to see any need to do it with eldar at the start of 9th ed and through out most of 8th. Or do eldar player claim that ad mecha or DG shouldn't have gotten their updated and they should have gotten it instead?
They (we) are unhappy about the range of miniatures because it has, on average, probably roughly your age and it's showing in some places. Nobody is saying GW should stop everything and deal with eldars, right now. But, the range is big and the oldest in average, so there should be more releases to replace old sprues/sculpts and less "look, that thing we did two years ago, we did it again !". Which is why there is a hope that we're seeing the end of the marine madness such as other factions gets updated (updates which would reach Eldars eventually).
it costs them in the term of lost possible income. |If they produce something like indomitus, or even its scalper version like honored of the chapter, it will sell and it will sell with larger numbers then trying to sell anything else. And then they have to weight it against the update slots eldar share with other non marine armies. What will make GW more money. A new necron or sob line, which maybe isn't selling at all in its past form, or a new eldar line. And if GW decideds that making new necron or sob will make them more money, then making new eldar, they will update those first. Through out 8th ed eldar seemed to have sold just fine from GW point of view. And if it is fine, then why should they change it. And I don't claim that this makes the eldar player happy, but being angry at it is like being angry at reality.
So basically you're saying that they shouldn't update a range until it isn't selling anymore, unless it's marines. So we go back to they don't sell because they aren't updated and marines account for XX% of sales because they also account for XX% of products made.
But I kinda agree. They are interested in burst of income and not a steady flow for some reason (probably production capacity but who knows). Or rather, the marines are the steady flow of cash and everything else is padding annual results.
Doesn't mean it's what their customers want though.
well clearly GW decided that updating all the factions they updated in 8th and 9th, other then eldar, would have made them more money. And there were more then a few. Ad mecha got a ton of models, as did knights, new necron, new sob , new DG. Even csm got a good chunk of a new model line, same as demons that share the line with AoS. One can not say that GW did not make new model lines for w40k. They just decided that updating stuff like tau, eldar or d eldar is not profitable enough at given time.
And these SMs every quarter. But anyway, you see a part of the picture, if they can create so much stuff from scratch, maybe they can throw us a bone once in a while so we get rid of the old junk. And yeah, maybe it will take the slot of one unit for some one else. Not sure it's that much of a deal as long as release rotates between factions rather than "you, you get all this pile of stuff, then you, you get these few kit, then you, you get that clam pack, oh and you, we'll see you in ten years".
considering the cost of a single unit, I would say that SoB made not a very valid army for w40k players. And I think it was even true for people living in countries other my.
No they weren't if you didn't start your army when they were still current (and even at that time). But your point was that the range wasn't sold anymore, not that it wasn't cheap enough.
well that too. But the fact is that rules do sell the models. I doubt there is much sells being generated by marine scouts right now. Attack bikes on the other hand are popular. So if an army is old, and eldar clearly are an old army when some units are considered, but people still play it because it has powerful rules, and by playing I mean also buying the models, GW is satisifed with that. I don't think they really care how old their model line is or how good their rule sets are. As long as someone goes out and buys 3-5 flyers and 30 dark reapers, and some jetbikers to convert in to shining spears they find it okey enough. Now if line does not sell at all, it is a completly different problem. The question is, what is easier to do for them Update the rules and make people buy the old models again, they can clearly make marine players want to buy attack bikes or venguard vets or old dreadnoughts, or invest time and money to make a new model line. I think the first is easier for them to do, and in many ways, this is what they have done with eldar a few times. They also did the other thing too, from stories I heard when GW updated eldar with new plastic models, the waveserpents, jetbikers and wright knights were selling crazy good. having powerful rules helped with that too of course.
The rules HELP sell models and vice versa. But we're buying models first as they won't change and will potentially stay with us forever, the rules will change though and what is OP today can become totally useless tomorrow. I thought you were aware of this with all your GK woes. The amount of people buying older kits just because they are competitive is extremely small compared to what the range could sell if it was in good shape.
Older players already have what they need and newer players don't want to start an army with models older than them, eventhough "omg if I spam this odd choice 6 times eventhough I don't like the minis, I might win games, awesome". So you're left with the odd meta chasing players which would be ready to start an army they don't own and wouldn't turn toward ebay or some other market place to get their models. This isn't really a big market, whatever the Internet made you believe.
Hi, I signed up to the forum just to weigh in on this. I literally picked up this thread on a google search while looking up this topic.
I'm actually new to 40k, I just recently had a new tabletop wargaming store open next to my work that's convenient to game at so I'd decided to take the plunge and really jump in. I don't want to play Space Marines though, as I'm a fan of Tyranid. (I was a big fan of Zerg prior to getting into 40k) Unfortunately all the factions I'm most interested in (Craftworld Eldar, and to a much lesser extent CSM) are all kind of in that rut of being somewhat neglected.
Despite having gotten some models and began experimenting with painting, the very topic of this thread is making me hesitant to invest more. After-all what if Tyranid fall into the rut Craftworld Eldar are in right now and don't see an update for many years to come? What if I get into this hobby and the games are just no fun? I mean when I go to the hobby store and watch others play I just see Space Marines up and down the aisles.
The very reason I'm looking up this topic is when I'm telling people I want to start 40k with Tyranid, it's very worrying hearing people respond with "Ah, you're starting on Hard Mode." or "Goodluck, you're going to need it." Or watching battle reports with 'Nids against SM and seeing comments like "Well this fight was decided before the armies even deployed."
It's troubling, and if I didn't love the lore and setting of 40k so much I'd probably have backed away to try and get into AoS more. Thankfully I also do want to do more narrative stuff like Crusades rather then real competitive games our tournaments so that's been another blow lessened. Still the sheer focus on Space Marines and the lack of support for the faction I want to play really has caused me to hesitate.
So I can confirm, as a new player this very issue is a roadblock to me getting into the game.
Hive Zefier wrote: Hi, I signed up to the forum just to weigh in on this. I literally picked up this thread on a google search while looking up this topic.
I'm actually new to 40k, I just recently had a new tabletop wargaming store open next to my work that's convenient to game at so I'd decided to take the plunge and really jump in. I don't want to play Space Marines though, as I'm a fan of Tyranid. (I was a big fan of Zerg prior to getting into 40k) Unfortunately all the factions I'm most interested in (Craftworld Eldar, and to a much lesser extent CSM) are all kind of in that rut of being somewhat neglected.
Despite having gotten some models and began experimenting with painting, the very topic of this thread is making me hesitant to invest more. After-all what if Tyranid fall into the rut Craftworld Eldar are in right now and don't see an update for many years to come? What if I get into this hobby and the games are just no fun? I mean when I go to the hobby store and watch others play I just see Space Marines up and down the aisles.
The very reason I'm looking up this topic is when I'm telling people I want to start 40k with Tyranid, it's very worrying hearing people respond with "Ah, you're starting on Hard Mode." or "Goodluck, you're going to need it." Or watching battle reports with 'Nids against SM and seeing comments like "Well this fight was decided before the armies even deployed."
It's troubling, and if I didn't love the lore and setting of 40k so much I'd probably have backed away to try and get into AoS more. Thankfully I also do want to do more narrative stuff like Crusades rather then real competitive games our tournaments so that's been another blow lessened. Still the sheer focus on Space Marines and the lack of support for the faction I want to play really has caused me to hesitate.
So I can confirm, as a new player this very issue is a roadblock to me getting into the game.
Welcome!!
^Tyranids are awesome. I actually started my Tyranid army out of "marine fatigue" and I really haven't been disappointed. It's actually proven to be the most fun army that I play. I love my Marines, mind you. . . but I really do enjoy actually playing Nids more.
Other people who have played Nids longer will be able to tell you more about them as a competitive army, but one thing that I've found very useful about Nids is that they have a huge array of statlines and flexibility in their troops. I've basically always been able to find some sort of solution to any table-top problem that's come up. I play using the Hive Fleet Jormangander rules, leveraging tunneling units to keep my attacking options feeling fresh.
I would say that Nids have always had a place in 40K, they're never quite bottom of the pile and have gotten a fair amount of attention over the years compared to other Xenos factions. They have a fairly complete plastic range, so the idea that they will suffer like CWE is not likely - they don't have the same problem of 20+ year old sculpts or minis made in bad materials (for the most part - there are a couple of left over minis, but no where near as bad).
That said, if you play Xenos you will always be second class in terms of model releases, book releases and so on. That's an unfortunate fact. It doesn't have to mean you won't enjoy the game though. The meta is heavily skewed toward things that can kill marines, so non-Marine armies can often compete fairly well just due to the fact that people have not optimised to deal with them.
Nids are really cool and visually coherent. If you collect an army of them you're going to have fun with it. I think the best mindset is to not really expect to be treated like the Space Marines at all, and just be happy with the cool stuff you currently have model wise, treating anything new like a nice bonus. You won't get as many kits as frequently as the marines. But that's fine really, who needs new stuff all the time when you've got your army? It's not really required to have new stuff to buy.
The downside can come along with the rules. Sometimes Xenos factions do end up with disappointing rules because the Design Studio half ass it. Other times they might end up as one of the strongest factions due to how the meta works out. The good (?) news is, 40K rules are always in a state of flux these days, so who is top dog and who is not changes over time. From one edition to the next who is on top can switch around. So I think it's not something to worry too much about unless you intend on playing very competitively. If you're new, you should be aware that Space Marines just went through a phase of being really over powered at the end of the last edition. It's not clear how it's going to shake out in the long term.
So tl, dr: You can have a lot of fun with your nids, but have realistic expectations about it. You're not going to get the same amount of attention from GW as a space marine player will, but that doesn't have to mean it's a negative experience.
I don't agree with this; you can win with Nids, but in unintuitive, mostly unrewarding ways (unless you're monster mashing with FW monsters, and I assume somebody starting out doesn't have those), and winning does take a very strong grasp of the game (see stormcoil's batreps on reddit.) Starting the game and fighting your buddy with Marines, you're going to have trouble.
I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
aw man that combined 10% of the play meta must really be getting you down. In the 1 in 10 games you have to play against one of those armies it must be so tough.
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
aw man that combined 10% of the play meta must really be getting you down. In the 1 in 10 games you have to play against one of those armies it must be so tough.
I play in a really hard core environment. Pretty much every game is against these type lists. My main opponents armies are custodes and quins. It really getting old.
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
aw man that combined 10% of the play meta must really be getting you down. In the 1 in 10 games you have to play against one of those armies it must be so tough.
I play in a really hard core environment. Pretty much every game is against these type lists. My main opponents armies are custodes and quins. It really getting old.
*shrug* so theyll move on to making you miserable with the new DG and Dark Angels when those 3 factions get FAQed or updated. If you play in a really hardcore competitive environment, they'll always make 80% of the stuff in the game sub par, that's how being in a competitive environment works. You be miserable the entire time and justify it by believing that you're having fun better or more efficiently or something than the filthy casuals.
I play in a really hard core environment. Pretty much every game is against these type lists. My main opponents armies are custodes and quins. It really getting old.
Wait a minute... werent you the one telling people to stop complaining about Marines' popularity and to just accept it?
And yeah, if you play exclusively with meta chasers that play the top tier armies, you're always gonna be stuck playing against the best army over and over....
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
2.0 books oppress the game: "This is good, it just seems bad because a lot of people play Marines" "They will probably be garbage by the end of the edition"
PA books remain after Marines get brought down a peg: "This is incredibly frustrating to play against and make so many options in the game sub par"
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
2.0 books oppress the game: "This is good, it just seems bad because a lot of people play Marines" "They will probably be garbage by the end of the edition"
PA books remain after Marines get brought down a peg: "This is incredibly frustrating to play against and make so many options in the game sub par"
Nah pretty much everyone acknowledged the absurdity of IH and other broken codex. They were nerfed in short time by GW standards (within a month or 2) Quins/daemons have been broken for like what...a year now?
Hive Zefier wrote: Hi, I signed up to the forum just to weigh in on this. I literally picked up this thread on a google search while looking up this topic.
I'm actually new to 40k, I just recently had a new tabletop wargaming store open next to my work that's convenient to game at so I'd decided to take the plunge and really jump in. I don't want to play Space Marines though, as I'm a fan of Tyranid. (I was a big fan of Zerg prior to getting into 40k) Unfortunately all the factions I'm most interested in (Craftworld Eldar, and to a much lesser extent CSM) are all kind of in that rut of being somewhat neglected.
Despite having gotten some models and began experimenting with painting, the very topic of this thread is making me hesitant to invest more. After-all what if Tyranid fall into the rut Craftworld Eldar are in right now and don't see an update for many years to come? What if I get into this hobby and the games are just no fun? I mean when I go to the hobby store and watch others play I just see Space Marines up and down the aisles.
The very reason I'm looking up this topic is when I'm telling people I want to start 40k with Tyranid, it's very worrying hearing people respond with "Ah, you're starting on Hard Mode." or "Goodluck, you're going to need it." Or watching battle reports with 'Nids against SM and seeing comments like "Well this fight was decided before the armies even deployed."
It's troubling, and if I didn't love the lore and setting of 40k so much I'd probably have backed away to try and get into AoS more. Thankfully I also do want to do more narrative stuff like Crusades rather then real competitive games our tournaments so that's been another blow lessened. Still the sheer focus on Space Marines and the lack of support for the faction I want to play really has caused me to hesitate.
So I can confirm, as a new player this very issue is a roadblock to me getting into the game.
Welcome to the saltmine .
OK Jokes aside, nids are a good choice, generally modelwise they get the better inovative side of gw and as others Stated are Quite fun.
The most important thing is, that you Find a Group fitting for your playstyle. ( Be that comp, Beer and pretzels, narrative , etc.)
And that you learn hobbywise the skills , since that can Make you independant from gw's goodwill.
And yes i can understand that this thread would bother you, however Overall i still think the Hobby is Worth it. Take it however as a Disclaimer that gw can Make it really annoying aswell .
Dakka and Lord knows i've been recently more pissed off at gw's handeling of their ip than others here, especially since gw decided to banish my Main army into the abyss of the "legends" section.
And i believe that is testimony as to the strength of the Hobby, even in such a Situation a good playgroup aswell as some skills learned can overcome even that. But that is despite gw and not due to gw.
Obviously it's impossible for anyone who's never played 40k to have done any research into the game beforehand. We all entered completely blind with no clue what we were getting into.
Nah. No one starts by talking like a seasoned player. Complete BS.
Let me be the first to make that weasel feel unwelcome and threatened.
I've only played one or two 500 point games on Tabletop Sim, and without Command Points as a friend was trying to teach me basic rules.
How was I talking like a seasoned player? I didn't mention anything about Tournament Balance or Faction Balance, I literally just listed off some stuff people at the game store told me and stuff I've heard from youtube comment sections.
The Lore stuff I mostly know after leaping off of Dawn of War and listening to audiobooks (I just got done Blood of Baal and I'm starting Infinite and the Divine) but I'm not really savvy in the in game mechanics. This entire controversy I became aware of thanks to Chapter Master Valrak on youtube. I even blatantly said I don't want to get involved in competitive games, more Crusades which I do find rather interesting as I've watched a few videos, primarily from SkaredCast and his Druhkari.
If you want some proof, I'm Raptor Zefier on youtube, and for a couple months now I've been commenting on Valrak's videos about my new Tyranid and my thoughts on them. I commented on one of Baldermort's videos all of a month ago also mentioning my new army: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IpCIMysIj0&lc=Ugx6XcvVnMDJbyVTT1N4AaABAg
I've also been in the 40k subreddit, hashing out lore for my Tyranid there under the same username: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/kpwhiy/can_a_tyranid_splinter_fleet_grow_into_a_proper/ As an example from two months ago. ( Hive *Zefier* admittedly is a bit lame but you get the idea, I just removed the Raptor part and slotted in Hive. ) I'm still trying to hash out proper lore and story for my Splinter Fleet.
As yet further proof, an actual image of my rather pitiful and terribly painted collection so far as I'm just trying out a color scheme I like:
Spoiler:
(I'm hoping the amateur paint work is convincing enough)
If you're wondering why it's been a few months and I haven't played yet, I'm still working up to making my first warriors, I've been painting gaunts slowly one at a time and I'm building up to making Warriors, which I want to magnetize as everyone has suggested I do that. Which worries me a bit since I'm afraid I'll wreck them even with a video guide so I've been delaying, alongside balancing it with other hobbies. I don't have a complete army yet as a result though Tabletop Sim has been helpful in learning some of the basics with friends.
As for everyone else, thanks for the advice and input! I'll stick with them as I really do love the aesthetic and lore of the Tyranid. It goes a long way to making me want to stick with getting into the hobby, this doubt has been what's keeping me from getting something really big like some good carnifexes or a proper Hive Tyrant. I really don't mind losing, I don't have much interest in competitive, I'm looking more into narrative stories and campaigns, and given Tyranid are the bad guys I'm banking on losing and being the bad-guy in someone else's space marine army or something. I just don't want it to be such a one-sided stomp that I don't get to have any fun from it, if that makes any sense. (One of my only two games was against Ad-mech, which promptly wiped the floor with my army without me taking a single model of theirs in turn. Admittedly due to a lot of mistakes on my part.)
If you're a Crusader, loosing isn't a big deal. Basically, a Crusade game is an attempt to get as many of your units as possible to achieve an agenda, so that they can earn experience.
When someone plays hard to win, they often make it possible for you to do that.
So you can have a situation where you lose, but half the units in your army end up with Battle Honours and your opponent gains none.
I highly recommend Crusade if you can find a crew to play it.
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
2.0 books oppress the game: "This is good, it just seems bad because a lot of people play Marines" "They will probably be garbage by the end of the edition"
PA books remain after Marines get brought down a peg: "This is incredibly frustrating to play against and make so many options in the game sub par"
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
2.0 books oppress the game: "This is good, it just seems bad because a lot of people play Marines" "They will probably be garbage by the end of the edition"
PA books remain after Marines get brought down a peg: "This is incredibly frustrating to play against and make so many options in the game sub par"
Nah pretty much everyone acknowledged the absurdity of IH and other broken codex. They were nerfed in short time by GW standards (within a month or 2) Quins/daemons have been broken for like what...a year now?
So how much of that time has there not been basically any tourney data because of the apocalypse? Also, if you think the broken stuff from the 2.0 supplements was nerfed in a month....man, idk what to tell you man. You're living in the squigbuggy timeline.
Hive Zefier wrote: Hi, I signed up to the forum just to weigh in on this. I literally picked up this thread on a google search while looking up this topic.
I'm actually new to 40k, I just recently had a new tabletop wargaming store open next to my work that's convenient to game at so I'd decided to take the plunge and really jump in. I don't want to play Space Marines though, as I'm a fan of Tyranid. (I was a big fan of Zerg prior to getting into 40k) Unfortunately all the factions I'm most interested in (Craftworld Eldar, and to a much lesser extent CSM) are all kind of in that rut of being somewhat neglected.
Despite having gotten some models and began experimenting with painting, the very topic of this thread is making me hesitant to invest more. After-all what if Tyranid fall into the rut Craftworld Eldar are in right now and don't see an update for many years to come? What if I get into this hobby and the games are just no fun? I mean when I go to the hobby store and watch others play I just see Space Marines up and down the aisles.
The very reason I'm looking up this topic is when I'm telling people I want to start 40k with Tyranid, it's very worrying hearing people respond with "Ah, you're starting on Hard Mode." or "Goodluck, you're going to need it." Or watching battle reports with 'Nids against SM and seeing comments like "Well this fight was decided before the armies even deployed."
It's troubling, and if I didn't love the lore and setting of 40k so much I'd probably have backed away to try and get into AoS more. Thankfully I also do want to do more narrative stuff like Crusades rather then real competitive games our tournaments so that's been another blow lessened. Still the sheer focus on Space Marines and the lack of support for the faction I want to play really has caused me to hesitate.
So I can confirm, as a new player this very issue is a roadblock to me getting into the game.
Welcome and try not to worry so much. Most of the Nid line has seen some love off and on and hasn't had such a long hiatus as the Eldars have suffered. Here is the thing, collect, work on and play with the faction you want because they make you happy. No faction is the best forever its a constant cycle but Nids have been alright for most of the time I've played the game which is a long time at this point. By all means limit your investment if you wish to, if it will make you feel safer. I would say you are pretty safe with Nids though, just get some experience and settle on a game style you like for how they play and so long as you know your army well you should give as good as you get. Some forces though will always be " the best " options its just the nature of any game.
Hope you have a good stay and don't let the salt get you down. Most people here are just passionate and that passion can go up and down as the cause dictates.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.
Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.
Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.
Xenomancers wrote: I am actually losing interest due to OPPA supplements still being in use. They are just so incredibly frustrating to play against and they make so many options in the game sub par. I really want custodes/Quinns/and daemons to get updates immediately - so they can receive the toning down that they need.
2.0 books oppress the game: "This is good, it just seems bad because a lot of people play Marines" "They will probably be garbage by the end of the edition"
PA books remain after Marines get brought down a peg: "This is incredibly frustrating to play against and make so many options in the game sub par"
Nah pretty much everyone acknowledged the absurdity of IH and other broken codex. They were nerfed in short time by GW standards (within a month or 2) Quins/daemons have been broken for like what...a year now?
So how much of that time has there not been basically any tourney data because of the apocalypse? Also, if you think the broken stuff from the 2.0 supplements was nerfed in a month....man, idk what to tell you man. You're living in the squigbuggy timeline.
It was a month or 2 until the first round of nerfs came in. No desire to look any of this up though because it is irrelevant by at least a factor of 4. This crap that came out at the end of 8.5 is ALL bonkers. Tournament data on this point is undebatable. It is a good thing daemons and quinns are relatively rare because the game would literally be ruined for everyone otherwise.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Considering how frequently threads for wargames get derailed by talk of space marines taking over 40k, it is somewhat cathartic to see a thread about space marines taking over 40k get derailed with talk of various other wargames.
Assume that by the 2nd page, no topic is actually on the topic that was on the first page.
Thinking about asking a mod to lock this thread since it seems like it's pretty much a handful of people arguing about whether the sky is blue at this point.
Ultramarine blue
The topic is - "losing interest thanks to space marines" I'd say - I am losing interest due to lack of updates for anyone. Give me Nids! Give me Astra Militarum! Give me anything but nothing!
Xenomancers wrote: The topic is - "losing interest thanks to space marines" I'd say - I am losing interest due to lack of updates for anyone. Give me Nids! Give me Astra Militarum! Give me anything but nothing!
You get DE in a fortnight, assuming a normal single week pre-order period - will that shut you up for a bit?
Xenomancers wrote: The topic is - "losing interest thanks to space marines" I'd say - I am losing interest due to lack of updates for anyone. Give me Nids! Give me Astra Militarum! Give me anything but nothing!
You get DE in a fortnight, assuming a normal single week pre-order period - will that shut you up for a bit?
DE are done at this point, and its been clear for a long time now that they aren't getting anything of note. If GW wants excitement, they need to start rolling with what's on the other side of Dark Eldar and this silly war zone supplement. The peak of my interest in them was 3 months ago and we're 8 months into the edition now. There is probably only about 2 years left. GW needs to start getting some enthusiasm rolling.
Stop spreading blatant misinformation; the sky is obviously Lothern Blue.
In the 80s and 90s, it was Enchanted Blue, but in the 00s it switched to Mordian Blue, and now that we have reached the enlightened age of Contrast it's Talassar Blue.
I still have some of my old hex pots as well, but the only one that's even remotely liquid is Goblin Green (which has been regenerated two or three times now but still smells delicious...)
Xenomancers wrote: The topic is - "losing interest thanks to space marines" I'd say - I am losing interest due to lack of updates for anyone. Give me Nids! Give me Astra Militarum! Give me anything but nothing!
You get DE in a fortnight, assuming a normal single week pre-order period - will that shut you up for a bit?
DE are done at this point, and its been clear for a long time now that they aren't getting anything of note. If GW wants excitement, they need to start rolling with what's on the other side of Dark Eldar and this silly war zone supplement. The peak of my interest in them was 3 months ago and we're 8 months into the edition now. There is probably only about 2 years left. GW needs to start getting some enthusiasm rolling.
Considering the slow-down of releases, I'd actually prefer it if GW extended this edition for another year. I mean, heck, we're nearly a year into this edition and many people haven't even had a chance to play it thanks to the pandemic. Many game stores still don't allow people to play, and even those that do are seeing small or limited turnouts. If GW changes editions again in 2 more years, they'll have a hard time selling it as any sort of improvement to the game because people won't have been able to enjoy it for a 1/3rd of its lifecycle.
Plus, a new edition just means more space marines. Anything we can do to push that further away and update ANYTHING else, like was said above, the better. Tyranids, Eldar, Astra Militarum, Orks... Heck, even though Drukhari are about to get an update, it's likely they'll still need more models converted from finecast to plastic.
On top of that, this warzone campaign is... well, just underwhelming. More books? That we can't use because of the aforementioned pandemic? It's going to be Psychic Awakening/Vigilus all over again, where the campaign book comes out and then a month later an FAQ or codex update invalidates it. We need MODELS, not books. And of those models, anything that's not a space marine, for the love of pete.
While true, I don't see them deviating from their 3 year cycles now. It's steady predictable spikes of cash. They pushed 9th out in a very uncertain Covid window.
I expect AoS 3.0 this summer as it is coming up on 3 years since 2.0. if it completely tanks for some reason maybe that might give them some pause for 40k 10th but both elements of that scenario seem incredibly unlikely.
At this point you could probably just work on armies and wait till 10th edition drops. It was perhaps inevitable for the edition to drop when it did but it equally feels a bit pointless to some given the nature of the world at the moment.
Also makes you wonder, what will 10th be like ? any ideas ? Just a blatant burn and churn with very minor tweaks ? Just curious what people ponder. How much more marine stuff will drop then ? Curious.
Also makes you wonder, what will 10th be like ? any ideas ? Just a blatant burn and churn with very minor tweaks ? Just curious what people ponder.
Probably.
Depending upon how screwed up the release schedule remains I could see them getting about 1/2 way through (mostly with factions having limited new model releases) & then launching 10th. With 10th having the bulk of armies with larger #s of new/revamped units - though of course SMs would still be one of the two initial forces. Forces that received a codex (other than SM & variants) in 9th would be using their current codex well into 10th.
I'd expect Primaris versions of units we've not seen in this codex. Drop pods, assault squads with jet/jump packs, a few more vehicles, a flyer or two. A faction terrain piece. A LoW. Several more Lts.....
For something completely new they could introduce persistent psychic effects similar to AoS Endless spells.
Xenomancers wrote: The topic is - "losing interest thanks to space marines" I'd say - I am losing interest due to lack of updates for anyone. Give me Nids! Give me Astra Militarum! Give me anything but nothing!
You get DE in a fortnight, assuming a normal single week pre-order period - will that shut you up for a bit?
DE are done at this point, and its been clear for a long time now that they aren't getting anything of note. If GW wants excitement, they need to start rolling with what's on the other side of Dark Eldar and this silly war zone supplement. The peak of my interest in them was 3 months ago and we're 8 months into the edition now. There is probably only about 2 years left. GW needs to start getting some enthusiasm rolling.
Take it up with Xeno - he said he's losing interest due to a lack of updates to anyone, when there's an update due in a fortnight.
Hive Zefier wrote: Hi, I signed up to the forum just to weigh in on this. I literally picked up this thread on a google search while looking up this topic.
I'm actually new to 40k, I just recently had a new tabletop wargaming store open next to my work that's convenient to game at so I'd decided to take the plunge and really jump in. I don't want to play Space Marines though, as I'm a fan of Tyranid. (I was a big fan of Zerg prior to getting into 40k) Unfortunately all the factions I'm most interested in (Craftworld Eldar, and to a much lesser extent CSM) are all kind of in that rut of being somewhat neglected.
Despite having gotten some models and began experimenting with painting, the very topic of this thread is making me hesitant to invest more. After-all what if Tyranid fall into the rut Craftworld Eldar are in right now and don't see an update for many years to come? What if I get into this hobby and the games are just no fun? I mean when I go to the hobby store and watch others play I just see Space Marines up and down the aisles.
The very reason I'm looking up this topic is when I'm telling people I want to start 40k with Tyranid, it's very worrying hearing people respond with "Ah, you're starting on Hard Mode." or "Goodluck, you're going to need it." Or watching battle reports with 'Nids against SM and seeing comments like "Well this fight was decided before the armies even deployed."
It's troubling, and if I didn't love the lore and setting of 40k so much I'd probably have backed away to try and get into AoS more. Thankfully I also do want to do more narrative stuff like Crusades rather then real competitive games our tournaments so that's been another blow lessened. Still the sheer focus on Space Marines and the lack of support for the faction I want to play really has caused me to hesitate.
So I can confirm, as a new player this very issue is a roadblock to me getting into the game.
Nids are in a good place but atm investing in Forgeworld Dimachaerons makes it easier. Or just kitbash them from tyranofex + trygon kits, using greenstuff. Issue is as you are beginning, you probably have 0 motivation to do this. Get your hands in the imperial armour update (you can find the pdf online).
Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not. That is not true. All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line. Faction specific units for most armies boiled down getting a character, and in case of some marine factions not even that.
In the same time GW made a whole new DG model line, whole new SoB line, new admecha stuff, new chaos stuff for marines and practicaly 3 new model lines for demons, there was even an update to eldar and orks, small as they were. Saying that GW updates only marines is just not true.
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not. That is not true. All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line. Faction specific units for most armies boiled down getting a character, and in case of some marine factions not even that.
In the same time GW made a whole new DG model line, whole new SoB line, new admecha stuff, new chaos stuff for marines and practicaly 3 new model lines for demons, there was even an update to eldar and orks, small as they were. Saying that GW updates only marines is just not true.
Nobody's seriously saying GWonly updates SM models. However, you might want to go and count the number of releases the Primaris line consisted of before you start trying to claim they haven't been vastly, vastly favoured way beyond what most people would consider reasonable at this point.
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not. That is not true. All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line. Faction specific units for most armies boiled down getting a character, and in case of some marine factions not even that.
In the same time GW made a whole new DG model line, whole new SoB line, new admecha stuff, new chaos stuff for marines and practicaly 3 new model lines for demons, there was even an update to eldar and orks, small as they were. Saying that GW updates only marines is just not true.
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not.
Because marines do and some factions do not. Duh.
All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line.
Yeah, that's all. Really tiny release. I know it sucks to get only 3 times stuff in an update than armies created from the ground up.
Faction specific units for most armies boiled down getting a character, and in case of some marine factions not even that.
The whole marine range is marine's specific release, what are you even trying to say ? That since we don't get even more marines (but this time with specific bling), it's ok ?
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not.
Because there is a queue for updates 20+ years long and marines/chaos have every other spot on it.
Eldar are actually one of more frequently released non-marine factions and they've gotten all of three characters and one squad in the past half decade. Marines get that many releases as incidental promotional figures every year.
I keep saying it, but Marines are just rounding out a new, huge complete plastic army of models.
To replace their old huge, complete range of plastic models.
Eldar still have half of their army never upgraded to plastic at all. And another part with models dating back to the freaking 90s.
That's why people are pissed off at Marines.
As someone pointed out a couple of posts earlier, Marines have got more than 20 new kits and single models added to their range in the last few years.
None of which they desparately needed.
And Eldar got 2. Yes 2. For an army that has been waiting for a model revamp for decades its past the point of absurdity.
AngryAngel80 wrote: At this point you could probably just work on armies and wait till 10th edition drops. It was perhaps inevitable for the edition to drop when it did but it equally feels a bit pointless to some given the nature of the world at the moment.
Also makes you wonder, what will 10th be like ? any ideas ? Just a blatant burn and churn with very minor tweaks ? Just curious what people ponder. How much more marine stuff will drop then ? Curious.
Honestly that's my intention. Following the Rule of Cool, buying the things that are neat for your army and building and painting what you think is awesome and just hope that in the 10th edition it'll be better.
If I had to make a guess as to 10th edition, based on the track of 8th and 9th, I'd guess more stratagems. The new command point system is already far superior to what they had before, but I bet we'll see various tweaks to that based on how broken/nerfed things get through the life of this edition.
I'd also expect a greater focus on Crusade type rules once every codex gets its own Crusade section. "Narrative" apparently equals "Crusade" now, but then, Crusade is very much the big feature of 9th.
Other than that, further tweaks to terrain and such. A lot will depend on the releases we see over the next two years outside of factions, such as terrain sets, campaign books, etc. I'm kind of hoping that the campaign books they're releasing tank, so that they realize they can't just sell us books, they actually need to sell us models, for us to remain interested. And if few people get a chance to really dig into 9th edition, then maybe that'll happen.
For now, I'll focus on my Sisters of Battle, Titanicus stuff, and maybe start a Soulblight army depending on those releases.
Picking a less-played faction in 40k is setting yourself up for risks, because GW doesn't care about keeping you at a certain level of balance. Sometimes you'll be super powerful like Harlequins at the start of 9th, sometimes you'll be super gimp like GSC at the start of 9th. That's something you should go into with eyes wide open if you are looking at picking an army. It's fine if you're ok with it, but if you're going to be frustrated about having a complete roller coaster of balance...you would probably be better off picking space marines, because GW is never going to let them be anything other than powerful again, you can pretty much bank on that. They won't always be the most powerful faction...but they're never going to be trash tier, GW has realized what a mint it gets from printing SM releases and it isn't going to go back to the days when they were sometimes not very good.
That's just what 40k is: a game overwhelmingly dominated by a particular faction. If that's a problem, it's probably not the game for you, because it isn't going to change - in fact, it's only gotten progressively worse over the years, not better.
Now within that dominance there is actually plenty of room for people who don't like space marines...but you have to approach it with the attitude that you're the constant underdog, and you're constantly going to have to be battling against unfair odds, whether that's rules or the attention you get in the model department. If you can embrace that underdog status, it can be a lot of fun to play one of the unfavored factions. But you have to accept that's what you are: a second-class citizen within the game's design space.
addnid wrote: If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Piracy is a problem for a company, no one should think it is not ("oooh but GW is such a big company the bastards !").
Someone needs to do this to marines - copy the hell out of them, so GW will give them gak rules!
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not.
Because there is a queue for updates 20+ years long and marines/chaos have every other spot on it.
Eldar are actually one of more frequently released non-marine factions and they've gotten all of three characters and one squad in the past half decade. Marines get that many releases as incidental promotional figures every year.
no people already posted that loyalist marines never get more then 40% of stuff per edition, and this makes sense considering how much of a market they make for GW. You are right that the slots are limited, but getting angry at marines make no sense. If in 7th or 8th your non marine army, didn't get updated then you should be angry at those armies that did get updates. Stuff like SoB, GSC, Ad Mecha , 1ksons or DG. Those are the armies that share the release spots with other non loyalist marines.
And Eldar got 2. Yes 2. For an army that has been waiting for a model revamp for decades its past the point of absurdity.
how many new models did the DA get in their release cycle? 1 character . SW got ragnar, a Lt and an upgrade sprue. IF and RG got an upgrade sprue and a special character. BA got a lot stuff, because they got an Lt, Mefisto and upgrade sprue . Comparing to CF or BT those got nothing, not even an upgrade sprue. Meanwhile something like DG got a full reset of model line. Where are the WS outridder bikers or SW primaris TWC , or even mounted and jump pack characters for primaris. It took more then an edition to get just the chaplain on bike. And in the mean time a ton of armies were revamped. Yes eldar were not, because eldar players had such good rules that they were willing to buy their stuff plastic or resin no matter what. It only become a problem now, when the line is old and the rules are bad. But eldar players didn't even have a bad rule set for an entire edition. Maybe the eldar players should wait till they see their codex , they sure told me that. Wait for codex, CA, update CA etc. When after 2 editions eldar are bad, maybe then you will be in the right to say they are being treated bad.
Karol wrote: how many new models did the DA get in their release cycle? 1 character .
So I play DA... Do you mean I shouldn't be building the content of this Indomitus box while answering to you because it's not written "gloomy boys" on it ?
Karol wrote: You are right that the slots are limited, but getting angry at marines make no sense. If in 7th or 8th your non marine army, didn't get updated then you should be angry at those armies that did get updates. Stuff like SoB, GSC, Ad Mecha , 1ksons or DG. Those are the armies that share the release spots with other non loyalist marines
You are in a queue for something. There are 10 people ahead of you.
The guy at the front gets his thing and then pushes his way back into the queue ahead of you to go again. And again. And again.
Why would you be angry at the other nine people in the queue?
Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not. That is not true. All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line. Faction specific units for most armies boiled down getting a character, and in case of some marine factions not even that.
In the same time GW made a whole new DG model line, whole new SoB line, new admecha stuff, new chaos stuff for marines and practicaly 3 new model lines for demons, there was even an update to eldar and orks, small as they were. Saying that GW updates only marines is just not true.
I dunno, could it be that some marine factions like Space Wolves literally got a codex, then content in PA, then content in the marine codex 3.0, then more content in a supplement months after that, with free rules as a hold-over in a PDF released a month before that?
The world may never know why people seem to think marine factions are getting special treatment...
addnid wrote: If I was a GW exec, and if I saw other companies trying to screw me with alt miniatures, well I would also leave the units being "copied" with gak rules. This way customers would not be too tempted to buy them.
For all GW's faults, it is their game, it is not Artels' game or any other company's game. They are a business, not a charity/government scheme supporting other businesses. Why don't people understand that ? Artel has perhaps dug the grave for the Druk and CW models they targeted for piracy. If I was GW, with the upcoming druk release, I would overcost grotesques if I didn't plan a redo of the resin kit, just to spite them.
Piracy is a problem for a company, no one should think it is not ("oooh but GW is such a big company the bastards !").
Someone needs to do this to marines - copy the hell out of them, so GW will give them gak rules!
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh if you think I couldn't 3d print every single primaris marine miniature in existence for zero money with top quality and themed toward any chapter of my choosing, I've got something to let you know...
Marines are all the feth over thingiverse.
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Karol wrote: Why do people say that marines get updated and other factions do not. That is not true. All through out 8th ed all marines got was the primaris line.
Which again, reminder, was 4 times the number of kits of the entire sisters of battle model range relaunch. the most up-to-date army in the game received 4x as much stuff, and 10 supplements, and 3 codexes, as the army that waited what, 25 years?
I feel like the self fulfilling prophecy of "marine kits sell, so we should make more, eldar kits don't sell so we shouldn't" really comes into play. Particularly because when they have done new eldar kits the prices have just happened to be particularly painful relative to other releases, affecting sales further. That phoenix box could may have had foolish management thinking 'oh people don't like eldar' while missing or undervaluing the effect of how high priced it was vs what you got.
I dunno, could it be that some marine factions like Space Wolves literally got a codex, then content in PA, then content in the marine codex 3.0, then more content in a supplement months after that, with free rules as a hold-over in a PDF released a month before that?
The world may never know why people seem to think marine factions are getting special treatment...
Oh, those people are just mistaken.
This is NOT special treatment, just standard operating procedure.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I feel like the self fulfilling prophecy of "marine kits sell, so we should make more, eldar kits don't sell so we shouldn't" really comes into play. Particularly because when they have done new eldar kits the prices have just happened to be particularly painful relative to other releases, affecting sales further. That phoenix box could may have had foolish management thinking 'oh people don't like eldar' while missing or undervaluing the effect of how high priced it was vs what you got.
That's the story of GW since Priestley & co were pushed out and the sales people started running the design studio. Its idiotic, entirely backward looking.
Priestly & co were just as guilty of pushing Space Marines. Track down the 40k Compendium (the yellow one, from 1991) which reprints the WD article where they buffed the heck out of marines (T4 from RT's T3, marine power armor give a +1 to hit in close combat, and the start of special Space Marine Morale rules).
The lead-in text for the article is literally "new rules for their enemies have gradually shifted the balance of power, so that the once mighty Space Marines are now looking a little less heroic. Of course this is hardly appropriate!"
Its always been Space Marines the game. They just didn't clump up the releases so much so it was completely obvious, or revise the SM codex 3 times in ~3 years, or redo the product line at such a transparent cost to everything else.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I feel like the self fulfilling prophecy of "marine kits sell, so we should make more, eldar kits don't sell so we shouldn't" really comes into play. Particularly because when they have done new eldar kits the prices have just happened to be particularly painful relative to other releases, affecting sales further. That phoenix box could may have had foolish management thinking 'oh people don't like eldar' while missing or undervaluing the effect of how high priced it was vs what you got.
It wasn't so much the "value for what you got" part- that part was actually pretty solid. The problem was that there was too much in the box, which drove the price too high despite the value, coupled with the the fact that some of the other model choices in the were sub-optimal at best. Dollar for dollar though, the value was huge- admittedly that's mostly because of the hideously inflated cost of Banshees and Incubi.
In Canadian dollars, I basically got a Falcon, a Vyper, a Venom, 5 Hellions and 5 Scourges for $40. It worked for me because I wanted to start a small CWE force and I had nothing. Most people who hated the box just didn't like the Falcon and the Vyper- and they certainly aren't the best options in the range. But at that level of discount...
I caved in and bought one because I literally could not let myself buy Incubi or Banshees as separates given the price of the individual boxes. Getting five more units, including 3 vehicle kits for an extra $40 was the only thing that made JZ + Banshees and Draz + Incubi worth the outrageous price GW set for the models. Now I'll be able to get an extra 5 Incubi as part of the Combat Patrol Box and I'll have 10, all at a discounted cost.
how many new models did the DA get in their release cycle? 1 character . SW got ragnar, a Lt and an upgrade sprue. IF and RG got an upgrade sprue and a special character. BA got a lot stuff, because they got an Lt, Mefisto and upgrade sprue . Comparing to CF or BT those got nothing, not even an upgrade sprue. Meanwhile something like DG got a full reset of model line. Where are the WS outridder bikers or SW primaris TWC , or even mounted and jump pack characters for primaris. It took more then an edition to get just the chaplain on bike. And in the mean time a ton of armies were revamped. Yes eldar were not, because eldar players had such good rules that they were willing to buy their stuff plastic or resin no matter what. It only become a problem now, when the line is old and the rules are bad. But eldar players didn't even have a bad rule set for an entire edition. Maybe the eldar players should wait till they see their codex , they sure told me that. Wait for codex, CA, update CA etc. When after 2 editions eldar are bad, maybe then you will be in the right to say they are being treated bad.
Ok now this proves 100% that Karol is nothing but a troll. It's impossible for someone to be sooooo disconnected from reality
yukishiro1 wrote: That's just what 40k is: a game overwhelmingly dominated by a particular faction. If that's a problem, it's probably not the game for you, because it isn't going to change - in fact, it's only gotten progressively worse over the years, not better.
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
I definitely agree that Space Marines have an unhealthy (for the game, not for GW's bank balance) dominance in the game and the background written for it.
But it's totally possible to play the game and not have it be dominated by space marines. I used to play with a friend regularly, he played Nids and I played Orks. No space marines in sight. Even when I played as a kid, there was only one space marine player in my group - Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and Imperial Guard as well as Chaos and Dark Eldar once 3e hit.
If you play in the "store" environment or if you see the release schedule as a large part of the hobby then yeah, Marines are gonna make up a lot of your hobby time. Or if you like reading books or looking at 40K content online. But just playing with some friends doesn't have to be Marine dominated.
People forget that other factions subsidize space marines; marine players are happier when they have non-marines to play against. All players are happier when they have a diversity of factions to play against, for that matter. The armies don't exist in a vacuum; they affect the sales of other army lines indirectly.
drbored 796396 11078611 wrote:
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
But it isn't even dominated by marines right now, the top armies are harlis, demons, custodes , SoB , only WS are doing really good out of all the marine factions, but they are not even close to the best armies.
Plus marines are the more diverse build wise and most popular faction. So if their players are having fun, the majority of w40k is having fun.
GW writes the rules in a way that there always are dominant factions, so where are we suppose to go back now to the times in 8th, when playing marines boiled down to taking 15 scounts and 2 characters? Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
drbored 796396 11078611 wrote: This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
But it isn't even dominated by marines right now, the top armies are harlis, demons, custodes , SoB , only WS are doing really good out of all the marine factions, but they are not even close to the best armies.
Plus marines are the more diverse build wise and most popular faction. So if their players are having fun, the majority of w40k is having fun. GW writes the rules in a way that there always are dominant factions, so where are we suppose to go back now to the times in 8th, when playing marines boiled down to taking 15 scounts and 2 characters? Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
Ok now this proves 100% that Karol is nothing but a troll. It's impossible for someone to be sooooo disconnected from reality
What part was disconected? Did any of the marine armies got more models for their factions when their codex books came out?
Karol. I know you are a kid but even you cant pretend you dont understand that "Space Marines" are a "faction". Juts look at these images.. SM are listed as faction and they have Codex: Space marines. Codexes are for factions.
If you look at the numbers every single space marine sub faction(apart from GK because GW..) has access to most if not all of the generic space marines "things" on their sell page with BA leading the pack with a whopping 126 postions.... 126 Karol.. Are you trying to say of the "generic" 109 Sm things BA listings dont include those 106? Because you would be incorrect..
Now compare it to the Xenos tab: Even the most upd to date "faction" has less than half of whats on offer to SM. Less than half.
These are not sub faction. These are not "chapters" These are factions existing on their own. And if you wanna say "but eldar are all the same" You would have to include all of the "armies of the imperium" along with SM to make a comparison which would pump the difference into the stratosphere.
Every single one of these are new datasheets. Doesnt matter what color of marines you are, you got access to these brand new units.
You forgot the ATV, three Gladiator tank variants, drop bunker, turret thingy, and Astraeus.
I did that list earlier in this thread when someone (karol?) said that marines 'only' got the Primaris line in 8th edition.
So this is just 8th edition stuff (might not be entirely 100% correct since I just browsed the online store for it).
Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
You are putting words into people's mouths. I am not seeing anyone that is saying that Space Marines should be the underdogs or lose all the time. People are just asking for a diversity in model releases and that all the books are brought up to the same level.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I feel like the self fulfilling prophecy of "marine kits sell, so we should make more, eldar kits don't sell so we shouldn't" really comes into play. Particularly because when they have done new eldar kits the prices have just happened to be particularly painful relative to other releases, affecting sales further. That phoenix box could may have had foolish management thinking 'oh people don't like eldar' while missing or undervaluing the effect of how high priced it was vs what you got.
It wasn't so much the "value for what you got" part- that part was actually pretty solid. The problem was that there was too much in the box, which drove the price too high despite the value, coupled with the the fact that some of the other model choices in the were sub-optimal at best. Dollar for dollar though, the value was huge- admittedly that's mostly because of the hideously inflated cost of Banshees and Incubi.
In Canadian dollars, I basically got a Falcon, a Vyper, a Venom, 5 Hellions and 5 Scourges for $40. It worked for me because I wanted to start a small CWE force and I had nothing. Most people who hated the box just didn't like the Falcon and the Vyper- and they certainly aren't the best options in the range. But at that level of discount...
I caved in and bought one because I literally could not let myself buy Incubi or Banshees as separates given the price of the individual boxes. Getting five more units, including 3 vehicle kits for an extra $40 was the only thing that made JZ + Banshees and Draz + Incubi worth the outrageous price GW set for the models. Now I'll be able to get an extra 5 Incubi as part of the Combat Patrol Box and I'll have 10, all at a discounted cost.
It's only a discount even as an illusion because the prices natively are so crazy high to begin with. Add in to that the models themselves have to be things you'd otherwise want or be lacking otherwise you are buying things you don't want or need which ends up as no discount at all. It's not hard to decipher their motives, they were trying to move some poor moving kits by holding new sculpts hostage with the box and still charge relatively a lot for it. Discount in MSRP considerations doesn't mean much if you can't use, move or want what they are offering. Like for me, I have plenty of incubi just wanted Drazhar and needed none of the other items making it a very poor deal from my perspective. I mean GW put out other poor value box sets but this one was perhaps the most contentious ones I remember.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's just what 40k is: a game overwhelmingly dominated by a particular faction. If that's a problem, it's probably not the game for you, because it isn't going to change - in fact, it's only gotten progressively worse over the years, not better.
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
I'm not saying it's a good thing. I don't play marines myself, never have, probably never will. But that's the reality, and it's not going to change unless there's a ground-up rejig in the way GW runs its operations. And if that happens, that probably won't be the only change in the game, so who knows if you'd even like the new 40k, even if that particular element was improved?
It doesn't make sense to play a game you don't enjoy in the hopes that it'll get better someday. If you don't find a game where the overwhelming attention is given to Space Marines enjoyable, it probably isn't the game for you.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's just what 40k is: a game overwhelmingly dominated by a particular faction. If that's a problem, it's probably not the game for you, because it isn't going to change - in fact, it's only gotten progressively worse over the years, not better.
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
I'm not saying it's a good thing. I don't play marines myself, never have, probably never will. But that's the reality, and it's not going to change unless there's a ground-up rejig in the way GW runs its operations. And if that happens, that probably won't be the only change in the game, so who knows if you'd even like the new 40k, even if that particular element was improved?
It doesn't make sense to play a game you don't enjoy in the hopes that it'll get better someday. If you don't find a game where the overwhelming attention is given to Space Marines enjoyable, it probably isn't the game for you.
The issue is that in recent years it has gotten a lot worse then it was before. And I imagine for plenty of people the boiling point has been reached and at the very least they are not buying more stuff until their non-SM army gets updated.
drbored 796396 11078611 wrote:
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
But it isn't even dominated by marines right now, the top armies are harlis, demons, custodes , SoB , only WS are doing really good out of all the marine factions, but they are not even close to the best armies.
Plus marines are the more diverse build wise and most popular faction. So if their players are having fun, the majority of w40k is having fun.
GW writes the rules in a way that there always are dominant factions, so where are we suppose to go back now to the times in 8th, when playing marines boiled down to taking 15 scounts and 2 characters? Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
Ok now this proves 100% that Karol is nothing but a troll. It's impossible for someone to be sooooo disconnected from reality
What part was disconected? Did any of the marine armies got more models for their factions when their codex books came out?
Funny cause this is actually the opposite, all the other factions are the punching bag to show how marines are the coolest in the block
Ynnari was basically created to ress bobby G, and then dropped with NO new models and they area joke on the table
Eldar still have to buy failcast and jain zar and banshee as much as i like them are no new models, but remakes
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
drbored 796396 11078611 wrote:
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
But it isn't even dominated by marines right now, the top armies are harlis, demons, custodes , SoB , only WS are doing really good out of all the marine factions, but they are not even close to the best armies.
Plus marines are the more diverse build wise and most popular faction. So if their players are having fun, the majority of w40k is having fun.
GW writes the rules in a way that there always are dominant factions, so where are we suppose to go back now to the times in 8th, when playing marines boiled down to taking 15 scounts and 2 characters? Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
Ok now this proves 100% that Karol is nothing but a troll. It's impossible for someone to be sooooo disconnected from reality
What part was disconected? Did any of the marine armies got more models for their factions when their codex books came out?
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
Exactly!
Its ridiculous.
The crux of the issue is that Space Marines should NOT of gotton a complete plastic range revamp of 40+ models, that they didn't need, before the Eldar got a range revamp to update their range of 20+ year old models!
Also...please. "Most diverse build wise" my ass. I've played against 80% space marines since the stupid 2.0dex demolished my local meta, and space marine lists 99% of the time fall into one of two descriptions:
1) entire or nearly entire army composed of ranged units that start within range of most of the board with optimal firepower. 30" bolters and bolter discipline + 36" or longer range heavy weapons, with the occasional thing like an attack bike that can easily move into optimal range with a single move.
Basically like playing Tau when Tau were the thing people complained about and they could field lists that were basically just riptides. Opponent never moves a model if they don't have to, just sits them there leaving you to wonder what the heck they're getting out of any of this experience, dunno, must be a big fan of tower defense phone games.
2) entire or nearly entire army composed of melee or close range shooting units that appear directly on top of your lines turn 1 via either drop pods, infiltrate, or using some white scars or raven guard or raven wing stratagem from one of the chapters whose thing is 'fast' to move across the entire board and still charge you. Game is over turn 2, usually at least seems like it's decided entirely by the roll off for first turn. Do my slower assault units just get handed a free turn 1 charge against your whole army, or do you get to wipe a third of my stuff off the table before I've moved any models because there's no way to hide anything from the ability to deploy 9" away, still move, shoot and charge? Let's find out in the next thrilling episode of "I hope I have enough time to set up another game after this, let me take a quick peek around the room to see if one of the three other people who don't play marines is here and is playing against a similar list - oh, fantastic, One Other Guy Who Owns Orks is playing vs blood angels, I did play him last week but I'll just give him the ol' eyebrow raise to see if he's sticking around after the turn 2 army wide charge gets resolved."
Other playstyles for marines theoretically exist. Like someone with a railway spike through their brain who miraculously survived might theoretically play some sort of 'armored list' or like a slow, footslogging assault army or something, but why bother, options exist for your whole army to just appear turn 1 in range with no chance for your opponent to respond, what would be the point of playing anything else?
the_scotsman wrote: Also...please. "Most diverse build wise" my ass. I've played against 80% space marines since the stupid 2.0dex demolished my local meta, and space marine lists 99% of the time fall into one of two descriptions:
1) entire or nearly entire army composed of ranged units that start within range of most of the board with optimal firepower. 30" bolters and bolter discipline + 36" or longer range heavy weapons, with the occasional thing like an attack bike that can easily move into optimal range with a single move.
Basically like playing Tau when Tau were the thing people complained about and they could field lists that were basically just riptides. Opponent never moves a model if they don't have to, just sits them there leaving you to wonder what the heck they're getting out of any of this experience, dunno, must be a big fan of tower defense phone games.
2) entire or nearly entire army composed of melee or close range shooting units that appear directly on top of your lines turn 1 via either drop pods, infiltrate, or using some white scars or raven guard or raven wing stratagem from one of the chapters whose thing is 'fast' to move across the entire board and still charge you. Game is over turn 2, usually at least seems like it's decided entirely by the roll off for first turn. Do my slower assault units just get handed a free turn 1 charge against your whole army, or do you get to wipe a third of my stuff off the table before I've moved any models because there's no way to hide anything from the ability to deploy 9" away, still move, shoot and charge? Let's find out in the next thrilling episode of "I hope I have enough time to set up another game after this, let me take a quick peek around the room to see if one of the three other people who don't play marines is here and is playing against a similar list - oh, fantastic, One Other Guy Who Owns Orks is playing vs blood angels, I did play him last week but I'll just give him the ol' eyebrow raise to see if he's sticking around after the turn 2 army wide charge gets resolved."
Other playstyles for marines theoretically exist. Like someone with a railway spike through their brain who miraculously survived might theoretically play some sort of 'armored list' or like a slow, footslogging assault army or something, but why bother, options exist for your whole army to just appear turn 1 in range with no chance for your opponent to respond, what would be the point of playing anything else?
Yeah, funny thing is, i have both
i have a salamander player that with 72 flamers that auto hits +1 to wound rend -3 totally annihilate anything stupid enought to be on the table, dont even start with eradicators and other units that can bring unholy firepower
And a white scar one, that with bikes he can reach anywhere turn 1 and then fall back and charge again, by turn 2 my eldar are a pulp
i had so much fun these months playing eldar vs SM, the only good units that can actually resist a turn are full buffed wraithaxes, and they hit on 4 lol
drbored 796396 11078611 wrote:
This sort of thing is the issue though. I know I'm simplifying by chopping off most of your post, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm twisting your words, but "If you don't want to play a game dominated by Space Marines, 40k isn't the game for you" is a really crappy situation/take.
Oh well. Frankly, it's true.
But it isn't even dominated by marines right now, the top armies are harlis, demons, custodes , SoB , only WS are doing really good out of all the marine factions, but they are not even close to the best armies.
Plus marines are the more diverse build wise and most popular faction. So if their players are having fun, the majority of w40k is having fun.
GW writes the rules in a way that there always are dominant factions, so where are we suppose to go back now to the times in 8th, when playing marines boiled down to taking 15 scounts and 2 characters? Or are marines and marine players suppose to be beat up faction for everyone. If yes, then how is that okey considering they make up the majority of players.
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Some are even 30+ atm, ffs Hawks have rogue trader bits lol
Ok now this proves 100% that Karol is nothing but a troll. It's impossible for someone to be sooooo disconnected from reality
What part was disconected? Did any of the marine armies got more models for their factions when their codex books came out?
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
Exactly!
Its ridiculous.
The crux of the issue is that Space Marines should NOT of gotton a complete plastic range revamp of 40+ models, that they didn't need, before the Eldar got a range revamp to update their range of 20+ year old models!
Some are even 30+ atm, ffs Hawks have rogue trader bits lol
Argive wrote: Now compare it to the Xenos tab:
Even the most upd to date "faction" has less than half of whats on offer to SM. Less than half.
These are not sub faction. These are not "chapters" These are factions existing on their own. And if you wanna say "but eldar are all the same" You would have to include all of the "armies of the imperium" along with SM to make a comparison which would pump the difference into the stratosphere.
Wait they include Ynnari there? Even though... Ynari are just Dark Eldar + Craftworlds? Why separate them if they are just an additional soup faction? They have no original units?
Asherian Command wrote: Wait they include Ynnari there? Even though... Ynari are just Dark Eldar + Craftworlds? Why separate them if they are just an additional soup faction? They have no original units?
They have 3 original "units" in the "Triumvirate of Ynnead".
It's akin to how some DA have 121 entries but only a few are DA only. They just bunch everything the faction as access to for "convenience".
InVerno wrote: Some are even 30+ atm, ffs Hawks have rogue trader bits lol
If you're going to whine, at least whine factually - nothing in the Swooping Hawk unit currently for sale is a RT element. Well, the bases might count, but that's beyond a stretch.
Baharroth and the rest of the Phoenix Lords (aside from Jain Zar) are early 2nd edition, I believe, but the Hawks were redone in either 3rd or 4th edition. They seem to show up in 2004 catalogues, at least.
Wait they include Ynnari there? Even though... Ynari are just Dark Eldar + Craftworlds? Why separate them if they are just an additional soup faction? They have no original units?
Other than Yvraine, the Yncarne and the Visarch, Ynarri have no bespoke models.
Expanding the Ynarri is one of the ways to introduce new Aeldari content without risking the alienation of those who play any existing Aeldari factions. Want to introduce a brand new Aspect, but you're afraid the CWE fan base will rage-quit with cries of "PRIMARIS ELFS!" on their lips and in every online post for MONTHS? Well, introduce them as Ynarri.
Want to try Exodites to cater to the nostalgia types, but afraid it won't sell enough to pay for the molds? Release them as Ynarri to more easily integrate them to an existing range.
Ynarri are also the perfect excuse to bring back the Emperor's Children and even Fulgrim; that's an edition reset/ outro campaign event- Ynarri almost succeed in destroying Slaanesh, but fail due to the intervention of Fulgrim/ EC. Nobody would be able to say that Ynarri went nowhere ever again, because like the Aeldari race as a whole brought Slaanesh into the world, the Ynarri would have brought Fulgrim back.
InVerno wrote: [
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
God help your overly sensitive soul should you ever play Chess....
InVerno wrote: [
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
God help your overly sensitive soul should you ever play Chess....
Yeah Chess Workshop has only brought out new sculpts for white for years, like come on, how many white bishop sculpts do we need ffs???
My unpainted back log of pawns is enough to carry me over until they update knights and rooks.
I've also been dying for a good king mini for a while, it's really awkward to not have it stand out when its the leader of the faction.
InVerno wrote: [
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
God help your overly sensitive soul should you ever play Chess....
InVerno wrote: Some are even 30+ atm, ffs Hawks have rogue trader bits lol
If you're going to whine, at least whine factually - nothing in the Swooping Hawk unit currently for sale is a RT element. Well, the bases might count, but that's beyond a stretch.
Baharroth and the rest of the Phoenix Lords (aside from Jain Zar) are early 2nd edition, I believe, but the Hawks were redone in either 3rd or 4th edition. They seem to show up in 2004 catalogues, at least.
They were "redone" yes but the wings were almost identical and were already old 20 years ago
Automatically Appended Next Post: And its not whining i just express the whole bad situation the xeno are in,
DE just got a lelith new model and nothing else
i invested money and 18 years in this hobby, i think i am allowed to say something if my 2 armies had close to 10 releases while i watch all my friends armies get all the love
InVerno wrote: [
I just want my faction to be treated equally ffs, do you know how embarassing is to bring models with sculps older than me? while the SM player fields theyr shining new plastic models they got this year?
God help your overly sensitive soul should you ever play Chess....
the design is cool but the execution looks dated compared to the rest. The "flattness" of finecast really makes them clash with modern sculpts.
And i'm not asking for a complete redesign when they go to plastic, they should 100% keep the original style, just modernize it.
And i agree that the design for Baharoth looks the best, its just .... ancient compared to the rest.
VladimirHerzog wrote: And i'm not asking for a complete redesign when they go to plastic, they should 100% keep the original style, just modernize it.
IMO what Primaris should have been in models and in fluff. A new mark of armor and a streamlined process of making new marines with a new implant that facilitates the armor. oth containing (!) innovation which is at best frowned upon in the Imperium. They are still space marines, they are still better (if only slightly), and all of the storyline developments still work.
Instead of Primaris XYZitors we could have gotten Primaris Tactical Marines, Primaris Assault Marines, etc. Models are different but the dataslate is the same. Bill Gravis armor as a replacement for terminator armor Cawl has invented that can actually be produced in abundance, and have Gravis Terminators again using the same unit rules for terminators. Don't make all the brand new infantry units (the SM lineup never needed them) and instead make stuff for, ya know, other armies.
This is a problem you say, because customers are less likely to buy new versions of units they already have? Not for Space Marines my good sir/madam, not for Space Marines.
The phoenix lord models are great... Except for Asurmen and Jain Zar were considered the worst models in their range.
I think personally the old sculpts definitely need a rework its dumb they haven't had one. Especially on the older warp spiders... Even for their time the 2004 models were incredibly stale and just very limited for their kits. Then you have the wave serpents and falcon kit which are the 90s...
They just need a refresh why is it that hard for some people to understand on this thread? It's not like people are saying that they should stop producing space marines, but space marine releases will be every 4 - 5 months as pre-ordained.
Don't feel insulted if Xenos players are like "Can that be us for like... a year? We just want like 6 kits, and we are golden."
Xenos and by extension everyone not space marines are just asking to be apart of the setting, don't feel insulted by that at all. I've read some very angry comments in the last few weeks about how space marines aren't taking over the space... But every tournament every game, a list is built around facing space marines. Because space marines are the sole focus of 40k's tabletop and metagaming. From its narratives, space marines are primary heroes and stories by which we intrepret 40k. Because of this it has become one of our main lenses and has felt like one of our lens to see into 40k. Its become boring and bleak in terms of lore, the once vibrant Reddit I am apart of has started to falter because its just space marines. Thats all there is now. Its all space marine lore now. There is no interesting stories, no more character development its just space marines.
This has led to a 'lore desert'. All we know about is space marines, namely the lead chapters, and its successors. And we get seldom lore on the more interesting parts of 40k. Almost every major engagement is with space marines. Which seems opposite to the inuniverse logic of there not being enough space marines. Its a real interesting paradigm. To the point that space marines have taken over the entire design space of 40k to the point every thing is centralized on that factor.
Space Marines overall have a ton of issues from their theming to their aesthetic, to a whole slew of other problematic elements. I like space marines, but I find they dominate all of 40k to the point that its weird when its not a space marine. Because the authors have no idea how to write anything but an imperial point of view.
Don't tell me they can't write Xenos cause they clearly bloody can! Tarzan, the Infinite's book is one of the best 40k books ever written. Period. Xenos is not 'alien' in the same sense as like completely foreign space bacteria. It is just a new perspective to the 40k universe.
And 40k is the worse for Xenos not being a big part of the narrative other than something for the space marines to fight.
Xenos as they are written boring because the authors don't give a gak about them. From Wild Rider to the Ynnari books having some of the most flat characterization in the entirety of 40k. To Path of the Warrior the only book on the aspect warriors way of life. Its really sad how little we know about the xenos races really at all. You could write a book from the prespective of an Ork, it would be a great release to hum drum of 40k.
yeah i really love how these models all look when besides each other on the tabletop, it totally feels like they belong in the same game...
?? I take it that this is some attempt to convince me that that Admech thing is somehow a superior model?
As for them having way different looks/sculpt styles? Good. They should. Ones a clunky steampunk-in-space Martian robot guy & the others a space Elf.
Each army should have design cues & themes within itself & across its faction, but look waay different than non-related units
A
If you're feeling jaded by GW's myopic release schedule, its horrible and constant price increases or its refusal to update sculpts outside of the Imperium, why not join us in 3D print heaven?
The only drawback is if you can only play in GW stores - no one else cares. Or rather, they positively care and are excited to see amazing new models to play against.
Maker's Cult have done incredible lines of Death Korp, a feudal IG regiment, Dark Mechanicum, and are getting a Nids line going atm.
Atlan Forge does amazing mythos-inspired Marines, including Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Minotaurs (although you'll need a good printer to do his super-detailed designs justice imo)
Piper Makes is hitting it out of the park with her Tau. In fact, here's a few pictures of some I've printed and painted recently. Both models together cost about £4.50 of resin.
The times they are a'changin... Now if only people outside could sort out GW's awful rules release scheudule too...
grouchoben wrote: If you're feeling jaded by GW's myopic release schedule, its horrible and constant price increases or its refusal to update sculpts outside of the Imperium, why not join us in 3D print heaven?
That's exactly what I did!
Piper's Tau-like models are simply amazing, I've already started printing them. And I already have close to 10k points in GW Tau models...
She's the best right? Great discord, great feedback, seems like a genuinely nice person who's excited to be doing what she's doing. It's another side to 3d printing that I'm only just realising.
I've started a FSE force where only the fire warriors are GW (with Piper shoulders printed at 60%, because I find their oversize a real weakspot in the sculpt) and I'm having such a blast. Next up a pair of riptides! <3
grouchoben wrote: If you're feeling jaded by GW's myopic release schedule, its horrible and constant price increases or its refusal to update sculpts outside of the Imperium, why not join us in 3D print heaven?
The only drawback is if you can only play in GW stores - no one else cares. Or rather, they positively care and are excited to see amazing new models to play against.
Maker's Cult have done incredible lines of Death Korp, a feudal IG regiment, Dark Mechanicum, and are getting a Nids line going atm.
Atlan Forge does amazing mythos-inspired Marines, including Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and Minotaurs (although you'll need a good printer to do his super-detailed designs justice imo)
Piper Makes is hitting it out of the park with her Tau. In fact, here's a few pictures of some I've printed and painted recently. Both models together cost about £4.50 of resin.
The times they are a'changin... Now if only people outside could sort out GW's awful rules release scheudule too...
Spoiler:
Major problem is, you have units with different style, and for me its a major minus for me
I tryed to buy artel w things or other 3d files, but a the end you have units with competely different style that ruin the whole army aestethic if you ask me
Dont get me wrong, i printed an awesome wraithseer, but the fact is, you have to print all your army from a single artist/company that keeps the style coherent, otherwise it will seems you play with different miniature from different games
I still have to print the Tau-like models I've printed, but I'm pretty confident that once they are painted with the same colour scheme they'll blend in with GW ones just fine.
Yeah it depends on the designer. A lot of the time it works well, but some designers stray away from the GW profiles a lot, and it becomes tricky. Yet to see a designer come up with a decent line of Eldar. When they do I'll be backing them...
yeah i really love how these models all look when besides each other on the tabletop, it totally feels like they belong in the same game...
?? I take it that this is some attempt to convince me that that Admech thing is somehow a superior model?
As for them having way different looks/sculpt styles? Good. They should. Ones a clunky steampunk-in-space Martian robot guy & the others a space Elf.
Each army should have design cues & themes within itself & across its faction, but look waay different than non-related units
A
Yeah, I definitely agree. the style of one model includes the fact that it's essentially two dimensional, thanks to how sculpting technology worked in 1994 two years after I, a grown-ass man with a beard, degree, house, car, wife and job, was born. Also, the style includes the fact that one model is made from injection molded plastic and the other one from fossilized shaving cream but they should definitely, 100% cost the same amount of money and nobody should feel as though after 26 years that GW should either gak or get off the pot and just decide to buy a vastly cheaper 3d printer that enables them to make as many high definition aspect warriors as they want sculpted by their choice of several highly talented digital artists.
Ghamak's a great sculptor but their releases are all over the shop imo. Not even close to having enough CWE to make me want to dedicate to printing and painting. Also a lot of the units are pretty pinup.
Whereas Piper has riptides, commanders, named characters, crisis suits, broadsides, ghostkeels, etc, with any missing units in the pipeline. I think a lot of printers want to be able to do an army's worth, not a characters or two, and I predict that designers who meet this need will start to proliferate in the next few years.
grouchoben wrote: Ghamak's releases are all over the shop. Not even close to having enough CWE to make me want to dedicate to printing and painting. Also a lot of the units are pretty pinup.
Whereas Piper has riptides, commanders, named characters, crisis suits, broadsides, ghostkeels, etc, with any missing units in the pipeline. I think a lot of printers want to be able to do an army's worth, not a characters or two, and I predict that designers who meet this need will start to proliferate in the next few years.
Well yeah, that is what I'm saying, his current patreon release for this month is the first half of the aspect warriors, and his next month is going to be the other half. Supposedly, anyway, so far we've got 4 poses of warp spider, 2 warlocks, and preview images of striking scorpions.
harlokin wrote: Their models have great detail, but the scale can be jarringly off.
this is true, though that seems to be a kind of universal thing with 3d printing, you just have to measure your models to make sure the scale matches. Also, he does bounce around factions a lot. I'll probably unsub from him once he gets to a faction I don't want to have more stl's for, i've just had an extremely lucky run of months with some excellent Harlequins, good GSC (wasn't a fan of some of the sculpts, but there were plenty good enough I was cool with having paid 5$), and now 2 straight months of CWE. Also I bought his Eschers, which mesh excellently with the GW escher sculpts and add good variety without getting into *shudder* forgeworld prices.
would i prefer to find something akin to Edge Miniatures for craftworlds? yeah. haven't found it yet, and honestly, 3 poses per aspect with a couple headswaps is enough to get you by. It's as many poses as we have had historically, anyway.
?? I take it that this is some attempt to convince me that that Admech thing is somehow a superior model?
As for them having way different looks/sculpt styles? Good. They should. Ones a clunky steampunk-in-space Martian robot guy & the others a space Elf.
Each army should have design cues & themes within itself & across its faction, but look waay different than non-related units
A
From a quality/detail point of view yes.
I still like Baharroth's style more for a drop troop but you can't tell me that both these models look like they belong in the same game? Baharroth is super flat , has weird proportions and is chunky compared to the other models.
I still like Baharroth's style more for a drop troop but you can't tell me that both these models look like they belong in the same game?
I can and I will . I don't think there needs to be one consistent "style" across all models a company makes as far as these conglomerate sci-fi/fantasy games. It's a lot like reading a comic book. Batman has a current look. But between all the books he appears in there's ??? different artists - all drawing the same thing but different. You might like one artists version of Batman better than another, but you don't say their style doesn't belong in the DC line.... It's the same when I look at 40k models.
I still like Baharroth's style more for a drop troop but you can't tell me that both these models look like they belong in the same game?
I can and I will . I don't think there needs to be one consistent "style" across all models a company makes as far as these conglomerate sci-fi/fantasy games. It's a lot like reading a comic book. Batman has a current look. But between all the books he appears in there's ??? different artists - all drawing the same thing but different. You might like one artists version of Batman better than another, but you don't say their style doesn't belong in the DC line.... It's the same when I look at 40k models.
Do you play/care for Eldar? I think if you poll the audience of Eldar players or potential players, you'd find yourself strongly in the minority in that opinion. They could do a plastic Baharroth that retained a lot of those key characteristics without forcing players to use metal models only available on the GW webstore. For instance, what they did with the Banshees was very much in that vein; true to the old sculpts. I wish they'd added a little more flexibility to those sculpts but that's obviously an issue with any metal/finecast models as well.
I don't know why people are getting flack for saying that the models they would buy for their faction are old.
If GW wants to bother to have these other factions, they should update the model line more than once over a 20+ year span. That seems a reasonable expectation for a miniature company. In that same span of time, we've had, what, 6 or 7 editions of the game?
It's a "Crap or Get Off the Pot" situation. Either squat the models and stop selling them, or update them and let Space Marines wait, god forbid, an extra month or two for their new updates.
As for the 3d printing stuff, there's a few problems.
A. they're not welcome at GW stores, so if you play primarily at a GW store, then 3rd party models aren't an option.
B. The styles can be vastly different.
C. the quality of printers can be vastly different.
D. the scales can be vastly different.
E. Resin 3d printing is brittle and delicate, and filament 3d printing leaves step-lines across the model, which can be a pain for picky painters and modelers.
F. You shouldn't *have* to turn to 3rd party to play a faction with decent and modern models. We should hold GW to a higher standard and they, in turn, shouldn't string their customer base along with 3rd edition models when we know they could do better.
I still like Baharroth's style more for a drop troop but you can't tell me that both these models look like they belong in the same game?
I can and I will . I don't think there needs to be one consistent "style" across all models a company makes as far as these conglomerate sci-fi/fantasy games. It's a lot like reading a comic book. Batman has a current look. But between all the books he appears in there's ??? different artists - all drawing the same thing but different. You might like one artists version of Batman better than another, but you don't say their style doesn't belong in the DC line.... It's the same when I look at 40k models.
Yes & yes - though atm I'm using Necrons for our Crusade league & some SW for pick up games. My Eldar are in storage along with a great deal of my other 40k/WHFB/AoS stuff. But I could go down to the basement shelves tomorrow & pull 3K+ worth of Eldar if I desired. Maybe that'll happen for our next Crusade?
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I think if you poll the audience of Eldar players or potential players, you'd find yourself strongly in the minority in that opinion.
Oh no, that sounds dreadful! Not only am I in the minority I'm strongly in the minority....
drbored wrote: As for the 3d printing stuff, there's a few problems.
A. they're not welcome at GW stores, so if you play primarily at a GW store, then 3rd party models aren't an option.
B. The styles can be vastly different.
C. the quality of printers can be vastly different.
D. the scales can be vastly different.
E. Resin 3d printing is brittle and delicate, and filament 3d printing leaves step-lines across the model, which can be a pain for picky painters and modelers.
F. You shouldn't *have* to turn to 3rd party to play a faction with decent and modern models. We should hold GW to a higher standard and they, in turn, shouldn't string their customer base along with 3rd edition models when we know they could do better.
a) Agreed and already stated. I won't play at GW stores anyway, frankly. Way too many thirsty sales people. b) To a degree. Most designers are putting out models that fit nicely into 40k. Quite a few are putting out models that leave GW eating dust. c) Even cheap printers like photon s and elegoo mars are good enough to print amazing minis now. God knows what it'll be like in 2 or 3 years time! d) You can scale as you see fit, very very simply. Like, click on a model and type in 95 or 85% - that simple. It's a 3D printer after all... e) Not true. 3D printed resin is way tougher than the stuff FW uses, for instance. Filament printing is irrelevant. f) Agreed. But here we are.
Yeah, scaling is literally one button. It takes less than a second. The other thing I can do with my 3d printed files, if I want to, is pop them into blender, slap a couple bones onto the stl, and repose the model as I like. i can also slice any bits I want off and print them separately, or slap them onto each other in meshmixer.
I got 4 different poses of warp spider from my patreon for 5 bucks - one of 3 aspect warrior squads I'm going to be getting from the same guy for that money, actually, but let's pretend I just liked the spiders.
In less time than it would take to clip and glue together a GW plastic kit, I rotated and supported the models in chitubox to set them up for printing so I can make them for approximately 50 cents each. As many as I want.
with a single button I can make a mirrored version of the model if I want. With a bit more effort, I can load it into Blender, throw a couple bones on it, and move the arms at the shoulder, elbow, wrist, waist, and head. My four poses include standing legs, running backward legs, running forward legs, and stalking forward low to the ground legs, so I can essentially make any poses that I want to make, with no clipping, cutting, anything required.
GW stores are in a closet, with .25 of a single table, a sales person breathing down your neck. Why would I ever want to play in one of those?
I specifically called out Calgar's bodyguard for a reason. A two model kit that builds Shrike's Talons or a Raven Guard specific Lieutenant duo option would be aces.
