WHAT FOLLOWS IS ME RANTING. SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM IF YOU HATE READING.
Games Workshop has been making all of their Chaos Space Marine releases centered around undivided armies. With no new model releases geared toward any individual god, and telling you to "mark" everything with whatever god you want, all of the units still look the same and still basically play the same. The only truly god-unique things in the codex is the Nurgle Daemon Prince and the cult troops. I can guess why they did this, but that doesn't mean I need to be happy about it.
Especially considering how weak the latest units are. I'm never going to get over that maulerfiend. Instead of a daemon engine you get an armored warbeast that was made so lazily its got giant cartoon monster teeth that they put what I can only refer to as a hastily-added gap in between the teeth so that they could add a tongue. It's downright painful to look at. Not to mention the fleshy parts look like crap as well, and that was supposed to be the highlight unit. The Mutilators are handicapped obliterators, and I'm talking fluff here. Obliterators were able to turn into melee weapons as well, but apparently not anymore? Is that too OP? I thought they were supposed to be OP? Well now they're not, they aren't, and you should buy more models now because Games Workshops brain hurt trying to think up something nice for this army. So now you have that. And as usual any power armored marines we see are wearing black legion attire that you need to ignore to play them as anything else. This is Games Workshop's way of telling us who this codex is really about. I'd be happy about them having black legion armor if we saw representations of anything else. Who designed these models, anyway? Jervis Johnson? Does he even like chaos?
I was happy to see the warpsmith and dark apostle. Their rules are hilarious in comparison to how they're depicted in fluff, but whatever. They have models now, and for me that's what really matters. The rules are just words on paper, official or not, and you can change them if you want, which I would without thinking twice. We have a Dark Apostle model! And a Warsmith model! Well, we had a Warsmith model before, but it wasn't that impressive, and it was in metal, and also it's out of print... And I like how they call it the War*p*smith so they can *technically* get away with calling it a chaos techmarine. Which works too, but honestly this type of model is long overdue. Just because it has stupid tongue-mouths on its mechadendrites doesn't mean I don't like it anyways! But the point is, they had to enter these as "Chaos Chaplains" and "Chaos Techmarines" to satisfy their boss (satan) and market it to all chaos players along with every other new model.
Chaos is about diversity more than any other army in the game. And while Codex: Chaos Daemons gave them no other choice, Codex: Chaos Space Marines has allowed them to go in the most generic direction possible. And so they have. This isn't the end of the world if you're playing anything but World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, or Thousand Sons. But if you are, then you're either going up against the wall or breaking their identity somehow. Which, if I had to guess, is more likely the second option. I can't tell you how much I'm seeing Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children fielding any and everything with their own respective colors and calling it theirs. I suppose this is what has drawn me to make this thread more than anything else. I seem to be one of the only people left who actually wants to see armies reflect some sort of identity as opposed to just a color. Why are so many people happy with just a color?
TL;DR
The four god-specific legions are turning into "Red Explosions, Blue Explosions, Green Explosions". And people don't seem to care.
GW is what doesn't care. We care. I haven't purchased models in years. Everyone dies sooner or later. In Jervis's case, we can pray for it to be sooner.
I think most people care. It's been happening for years.
How should we fix this? Boycott, hostile takeover, outright piracy, or even... the dreaded strongly worded letter?
It's GW's intellectual property to ruin. As long as they can turn a dime, they are going to do things with the least amount of effort no matter the quality. You don't have a lot of options about what to do here.
Plenty of people care, this has been a gigantic bugbear of the community for 7 years now. Players have screamed and moaned about it from the tail end of 4th edition, through 5th and 6th editions and now into 7th.
GW doesn't care. There are plenty of other people that care.
They could fix it if they wanted to. Very easily in fact. But they don't, so they haven't.
Vaktathi wrote: Plenty of people care, this has been a gigantic bugbear of the community for 7 years now. Players have screamed and moaned about it from the tail end of 4th edition, through 5th and 6th editions and now into 7th.
GW doesn't care. There are plenty of other people that care.
They could fix it if they wanted to. Very easily in fact. But they don't, so they haven't.
Pretty much.
I've gotten used to it sadly, infact I think that the whole undivided thing and lessening of options was just so they didn't have to make many more models and sprue's rather then outright malicious hatred, they are too lazy to create god options, too lazy to make cult models, too lazy to even update the basic CSM marine.
Phil Kelly just phoned in a codex because it's not his Eldar Poster Child and that he didn't care if CSM got better or worse.
Quarterdime wrote:The four god-specific legions are turning into "Red Explosions, Blue Explosions, Green Explosions".
That's the player's fault, not GW's. You can make a fully fluffy 1ksons almost as well as you ever could. All you're missing is cheesy W2 terminators, and that's it.
The only difference was that before you would take a certain army and GW would prevent you from taking anything else. Now they don't. Just because GW no longer prevents you from taking sorcerers in a khorne list or cultists with your iron warriors doesn't mean you're required to play with those units in those armies.
Before you were being saved from yourself. Now GW treats players like adults. You know, who can make their own decisions about stuff.
It's not just Chaos. GW has been making a concentrated effort throughout 7th edition to streamline the mechanics in the game (despite what one might think, with all the stupid random tables).
Look at the new orks. Their new artillery guns, while mechanically decent, are all pretty damn boring. No real special effects beyond the traktor's grounding debuff. It's just, random dice roll for your AP or strength and call it a day.
It's becoming like that throughout all the codicies.
This has been happening over all the books since not long after I started. If it werent for 3rd party models the streamlining would end my 40k gaming. Lists are so bland along with most of the books from 5th edition on-wards.
As a guard player I feel your pain. The problem with the books, is they dont inspire anyone to take it further. Most players I know that have cool conversions, themes or play styles did not find that inspiration within any GW book of late. White Dwarf used to have cool ideas too, but now its gone.
Ailoros mate you have laughably completely missed the point, what op is saying is that chaos is basically forced into a corner with its total lack of options and almost no character.
Codex space marines are all codex chapters and should have no variation in forces due to all being codex adherent, and yes that includes dark Angels etc.
And yet chaos that has no 2 forces alike are forced to take all the same options and have literally no variation in forces.
Ailaros gets the point, but he's under the impression that Chaos has all the variation it needs. In his mind, the marks, cult elite choices and daemon engines give CSM variation on par with the levels of customization Space Marines get.
Yeah. I mean, tell me what fluffy list you used to be able to build, that you can't build anymore.
Can you build a fluffy alpha legion list with cultists and infiltrating space marines and no vehicles? Yes. Can you build a fluffy khorne list with just khorne berzerkers, MoK terminators and some allied bloodletters? Yes. Can you build a word bearers army with a dark apostle and a bunch of demon engines and allied demons? Yes.
You can do everything you could do before, it's just now you can also do more stuff. More stuff is only less creativity for people who rely on restrictions to be creative.
Eh, I'm of the opinion that flavor comes from the player and not the rules but that's just me. I mean, if you have an army modeled and painted like a Khorne-dedicated force does the lack of god specific special rules make it any less Khorne? Or, on the reverse, does an army that is obviously made to look Nurgle made a Khornate army when it takes Khorne specific rules?
It's not like they don't have you covered in that department, anyway. They have a MoK and the option to give your guys a BP+CS to make Khornate troops. Other faction Codices would be lucky to get as much to represent lore specific groups.
TheCustomLime wrote: Eh, I'm of the opinion that flavor comes from the player and not the rules but that's just me. I mean, if you have an army modeled and painted like a Khorne-dedicated force does the lack of god specific special rules make it any less Khorne? Or, on the reverse, does an army that is obviously made to look Nurgle made a Khornate army when it takes Khorne specific rules?
It's not like they don't have you covered in that department, anyway. They have a MoK and the option to give your guys a BP+CS to make Khornate troops. Other faction Codices would be lucky to get as much to represent lore specific groups.
Thats true, but what about when the army right next you is slaneesh but plays largely the same with a few cosmetic changes and one or 2 unit differences? Thats where rules come in to rely define the choice you made. If it rewards you for sticking to a theme thats even better.
I am part of the crowd that thinks its a good mix of both rules and players to really create themed lists.
Ailaros, you've missed my point. At the end of it I say that people don't care. I understand Games Workshop doesn't care, but they've given the players the same option and oh look at that they don't care either. People can run Death Guard with just the Forgeworld Plague Marines, Terminators, and some vehicles and that's it. But few people do, and I think that they internally make that choice based on the understanding that that's all they have if they make that choice. I'm sure that the Emperor's Children have some pretty unique daemon engines up their sleeves, but it'll be a cold day in hell before we even hear about them. Nobody even talks about that sort of thing because of how far from reality the concept is at this point.
Furthermore, my point with the releases is that they have the ability to do it SO EASILY! They could have even given the plastic sorcerer the option to switch his star of chaos with a god-specific icon. That would have taken almost NO effort on their part, but they didn't even bother. If you want a Slaaneshi sorceror, you paint him purple. If you want him to be nurgle, paint him green or go home. And people are happy to. "He's green, that means he's Nurgle!"
Yeah, but why should Chaos Space Marines get all of this cool stuff? Why not Eldar, Tau or Imperial Guard? Why can't we have whatever tank the Catachans invented to deal with jungle conditions or the special Battlesuit made by the Farsight Enclaves to fight other Tau?
Of course, it would be sweet if everyone got all of this cool stuff but that takes a lot of time. The answer to the question of why GW doesn't make more god specific stuff is the reason why other factions don't get faction specific stuff: It takes time and effort. And they would rather spend that time and effort making large new shinies to maximize short term profits.
TheCustomLime wrote: Yeah, but why should Chaos Space Marines get all of this cool stuff? Why not Eldar, Tau or Imperial Guard? Why can't we have whatever tank the Catachans invented to deal with jungle conditions or the special Battlesuit made by the Farsight Enclaves to fight other Tau?
Because this is a Chaos Space Marine thread, where Chaos Space Marines are the topic of discussion.
I'm sure if you made a thread for Eldar, or Tau, or Imperial Guard saying "do you think my faction would benefit from having more options?" The answers would almost unanimously be "yes".
Of course, it would be sweet if everyone got all of this cool stuff but that takes a lot of time. The answer to the question of why GW doesn't make more god specific stuff is the reason why other factions don't get faction specific stuff: It takes time and effort. And they would rather spend that time and effort making large new shinies to maximize short term profits.
It's because they're lazy, and their business practices are stupid. They would make more money if they invested the extremely cheap amount of time required to make these things. They're not building a video game or a building, they're writing rules in a book. The costs to do that are man-hours in writing a few pages per codex, and the ink and paper required to jot it down. That's it. Meanwhile, they'd be raking in the cash from people losing their minds to buy these things.
Can you imagine how much money they would make if they released 4 CSM supplements giving four or five pages of extra mechanics for each God? The four of them would probably collectively outsell the Space Marine codex by a wide margin.
TheCustomLime wrote: Yeah, but why should Chaos Space Marines get all of this cool stuff? Why not Eldar, Tau or Imperial Guard? Why can't we have whatever tank the Catachans invented to deal with jungle conditions or the special Battlesuit made by the Farsight Enclaves to fight other Tau?
Of course, it would be sweet if everyone got all of this cool stuff but that takes a lot of time. The answer to the question of why GW doesn't make more god specific stuff is the reason why other factions don't get faction specific stuff: It takes time and effort. And they would rather spend that time and effort making large new shinies to maximize short term profits.
Well Imperial Guard is a good comparison, they suffer from this almost as much due to having such heavy implications to non-cadian regiments. Games Workshop still sells those horrible old metal guardsmen from other legions along with their just-as-terrible plastic catachans. I've never seen plastic kits so ugly.
But here's the difference: Those sub-factions can still use the same vehicles as the Cadians without any major inconsistancies (aside from the new Hydra/Wyvern kit which requires a cadian on display to man it)
Chaos runs on iconography. Let me put this in terms of Imperial Guard: Imagine if it was standard issue for every single vehicle to have the word "CADIA" imblasoned in thick etching on every single vehicle. And the only vehicles that the Catachans or any other regiments could field were vehicles that had THEIR name on it. The difference is bigger.
Actually, I think a more apt comparison is that the lore described the Catachans, Cadians and Valhallans as having all of these cool tanks unique to each regiment but only giving you the tanks that are common to all of them. And that each regiment has this awesome fighting style but you have to use the same stats and rules for each of them with only wargear choices to give you comfort.
TheCustomLime wrote: Actually, I think a more apt comparison is that the lore described the Catachans, Cadians and Valhallans as having all of these cool tanks unique to each regiment but only giving you the tanks that are common to all of them. And that each regiment has this awesome fighting style but you have to use the same stats and rules for each of them with only wargear choices to give you comfort.
No, as valid a comparison as that is, it's is very much less apt. The point I made about the iconography still holds, and it is a bigger deal since this hobby seems to be full of people who are willing to paint a cadian red and call him a vostroyan.
TheCustomLime wrote: Yeah, but why should Chaos Space Marines get all of this cool stuff? Why not Eldar, Tau or Imperial Guard? Why can't we have whatever tank the Catachans invented to deal with jungle conditions or the special Battlesuit made by the Farsight Enclaves to fight other Tau?
Of course, it would be sweet if everyone got all of this cool stuff but that takes a lot of time. The answer to the question of why GW doesn't make more god specific stuff is the reason why other factions don't get faction specific stuff: It takes time and effort. And they would rather spend that time and effort making large new shinies to maximize short term profits.
Well Imperial Guard is a good comparison, they suffer from this almost as much due to having such heavy implications to non-cadian regiments. Games Workshop still sells those horrible old metal guardsmen from other legions along with their just-as-terrible plastic catachans. I've never seen plastic kits so ugly.
But here's the difference: Those sub-factions can still use the same vehicles as the Cadians without any major inconsistancies (aside from the new Hydra/Wyvern kit which requires a cadian on display to man it)
Chaos runs on iconography. Let me put this in terms of Imperial Guard: Imagine if it was standard issue for every single vehicle to have the word "CADIA" imblasoned in thick etching on every single vehicle. And the only vehicles that the Catachans or any other regiments could field were vehicles that had THEIR name on it. The difference is bigger.
Hmmm, ish.
A Cadian for example is fine. The codex seems to be written for them. BUT then you have Catachans who clearly arent wearing any armour but must have a 5+ armour save. Infact they wear less armour than many units in the game but have a better armour save. Much like the Icons should effect chaos (I think?) the appearance of a guardsmen should in SOME ways at least effect how they are used.
Much like how each chaos alignment effects not only what they take but how they play, guard regiments are the same. You wont see Tallarn lined up firing in ranks, much like you wont see Valhallans jumping out of aircraft onto their targets.
Each regiment is meant to be defined by styles of warfare but by playing by those styles you are being punished. Much like how playing as one of the Chaos Gods as they do in fluff, can many times only harm your force rather than both define, help and hurt your army.
So when my Praetorians line up in ranks and fire at the enemy, im being punished as blast weapons murder me and cover is hard to get in. But I get no reward besides looking cool for doing it. If GW had given me doctrines again for example, then I would at least get a bonus for playing the way they where meant to in the fluff. Its exactly the same as the Chaos issue but at least you can be thankful you have options. We dont get any say in it besides some gear and aesthetics. You have Icons and so on.
There is nothing worse than the fluff kill in the Imperial Guard Codex. The other regiments all combined have little to no mention in the book either.
So yes it applies to all books, some more than others.
Swastakowey wrote:Thats true, but what about when the army right next you is slaneesh but plays largely the same with a few cosmetic changes and one or 2 unit differences?
That's the player's fault. One of you isn't playing a fluffy list, and pretending like they are.
Plus, it's not like we've moved away from some golden age where no two CSM armies ever looked the same. Was I not the only one who noticed the old Iron Warriors rhino rush, or the everyone-has-a-lash-prince-and-oblits armies of yore?
The test of creativity and variability isn't how well a codex prevents lots of people from taking the same list. People who only want to run the most powerful list will always do that regardless. The test is if someone can choose to do something different. Which they can in the current codex, very, very easily.
Swastakowey wrote:Thats true, but what about when the army right next you is slaneesh but plays largely the same with a few cosmetic changes and one or 2 unit differences?
That's the player's fault. One of you isn't playing a fluffy list, and pretending like they are.
Plus, it's not like we've moved away from some golden age where no two CSM armies ever looked the same. Was I not the only one who noticed the old Iron Warriors rhino rush, or the everyone-has-a-lash-prince-and-oblits armies of yore?
The test of creativity and variability isn't how well a codex prevents lots of people from taking the same list. People who only want to run the most powerful list will always do that regardless. The test is if someone can choose to do something different. Which they can in the current codex, very, very easily.
I dont really care that some random tournament players in some random country played pretend fluff lists. They can do what they want to as they always have.
What matters is that each army should be rich with flavor and choices to mark your army unique both in units, play style and look. At the moment you get rewarded for playing a style (which is practically the only choice for many armies) with certain units that look like whatever you want. Which pushes people away from creativity beyond looks. The only real freedom you have is looks.
If its so easy, make me a Mordian List that doesnt get punished for playing line infantry with nearly no armour. That fight in lines, move in lines and have a rigid order system. You will suffer for that choice with no benefit.
Swastakowey wrote:Thats true, but what about when the army right next you is slaneesh but plays largely the same with a few cosmetic changes and one or 2 unit differences?
That's the player's fault. One of you isn't playing a fluffy list, and pretending like they are.
Plus, it's not like we've moved away from some golden age where no two CSM armies ever looked the same. Was I not the only one who noticed the old Iron Warriors rhino rush, or the everyone-has-a-lash-prince-and-oblits armies of yore?
The test of creativity and variability isn't how well a codex prevents lots of people from taking the same list. People who only want to run the most powerful list will always do that regardless. The test is if someone can choose to do something different. Which they can in the current codex, very, very easily.
Uhm... Hello... You kind of ignored my post... the one I was aiming directly at you... even said your name....
Honestly, I don't see it. The Chaos Legions still seem pretty distinct to me. Never been a super-duper fan of Chaos Marines until relatively recently, so maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention.
Jimsolo wrote: Honestly, I don't see it. The Chaos Legions still seem pretty distinct to me. Never been a super-duper fan of Chaos Marines until relatively recently, so maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention.
Really it's a problem with all the factions to varying extents. The closest to it working is SM and even then it has kinks. The problem is you can't really make the legions. Want to play KSons? Ummmm... I guess you can play Ahriman and just load yourself up with Ksons as troops? Want to play Word Bearers? I guess you can.... ummm bring an apostle that has few options and then just kinda grab some cultists and some standard csm that are still cowardly. Oh and toss some chaos daemons that have no synergy to your army. Just because you get a mark doesn't mean you become that warband. Being a mark of tzeentch doesn't make you a KSon just as much as the Mark of Khorne doesn't equate to you being a Berzerker. It's very good at representing recent warbands that have fallen to chaos that ally in a variety of forces but that's really where it reaches its peak. To add to that, a lot of the options are the illusion of choice with two of the icons being horrid (fear and soul blaze come to mind) and the marks are of varying qualities with one being almost always useless. It'd bland and really lacks flavor.
That said, this can be said for armies at large. Guardsman, Eldar, Orks, etc. could all use with some thematical rules to benefit a certain playstyle. The themes don't even necessarily need to mean one group. Instead, it can simply be a representation of a grand theme. Call the obviously designed for siege regiments "Lord of the Siege". You know that it's for CSM-Iron Warriors/IG-Blahblahblah but it's vague enough that it isn't as glaring.
StarTrotter wrote: Guardsman, Eldar, Orks, etc. could all use with some thematical rules to benefit a certain playstyle.
Or to distinguish the factions. I think if we're talking about codexes that lack variety in the different subfactions, Chaos Space Marines are almost at the bottom of the list. (With really only Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Daemons, and Codex: Space Marines ranking lower than them.)
Orks, Tau, IG, Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Tyranids each just one big homogenized lump in their respective codexes. (At least, more so than CSM are.)
Well, we used to have noise marine dreadnaughts. That was pretty dang cool. Tzeentch used to be the masters of sorcery, now they kind of stink at it.
Iron warriors used to have cannons. Give Nurgle something besides plague marines. All chaos armies are really starting to look the same.
The CSM dex is just generic and boring, which is a shame because it's friggin' chaos. It's supposed to be oozing with character. Now we just have a few marines, dino bots and olbiterators. (I never felt that oblits fit the fluff, but that's a personal thing.)
I'm not asking for a lot, just SOMETHING to add some character.
StarTrotter wrote: Guardsman, Eldar, Orks, etc. could all use with some thematical rules to benefit a certain playstyle.
Or to distinguish the factions. I think if we're talking about codexes that lack variety in the different subfactions, Chaos Space Marines are almost at the bottom of the list. (With really only Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Daemons, and Codex: Space Marines ranking lower than them.)
Orks, Tau, IG, Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Tyranids each just one big homogenized lump in their respective codexes. (At least, more so than CSM are.)
But what real variety is there for CSM? How is it that armies that are restrictive as BA and DA be more variable than CSM which are even more variable than SM at least in terms or fluff? Sure, you can mark your forces but that really just means you can give them a few meaningless upgrades that are largely overpriced. There's no real big way to make a difference. Not to say they are the least diverse. They will certainly best several armies but at the same time it comes at a, but what can you really represent. The warbands? Frankly I don't much care for warbands all that much. Most care for legions like the founding chapters. People like playing those or a chapter inspired by one of them oftentimes and yet you can't really show it, there's nothing making them different than any others. So you end up having SM-1 with the illusion of choice.
And expansions? The supplements are wasted potential with useless random chaos warbands tossed a bone out of nowhere whilst SM get company special rules because ummm okay all the while so many possibilities are wasted upon overpriced 3 pages of rules. And, to nail the coffin forgeworld comes as a kick with SM getting so many additional options with IG getting even more diversity whilst others just rot along. Not to say that I don't like Forgeworld. I rather do and wouldn't disagree with playing against some forgeworld (nor would I mind getting some of my own) but it is still necessary to admit that there is a big disparity in favor.
And, I'll just toss in I still feel that Orks, Eldar, Necrons, and Nids certainly deserve more diversity with a few rules to spice things up and make it so you can play armies without having to just spam one unit and play make believe.
*edit- Apologies if somewhat blargh in typing. Somewhat sleepy*
Jimsolo wrote: Honestly, I don't see it. The Chaos Legions still seem pretty distinct to me. Never been a super-duper fan of Chaos Marines until relatively recently, so maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention.
Really it's a problem with all the factions to varying extents. The closest to it working is SM and even then it has kinks. The problem is you can't really make the legions. Want to play KSons? Ummmm... I guess you can play Ahriman and just load yourself up with Ksons as troops? Want to play Word Bearers? I guess you can.... ummm bring an apostle that has few options and then just kinda grab some cultists and some standard csm that are still cowardly. Oh and toss some chaos daemons that have no synergy to your army. Just because you get a mark doesn't mean you become that warband. Being a mark of tzeentch doesn't make you a KSon just as much as the Mark of Khorne doesn't equate to you being a Berzerker. It's very good at representing recent warbands that have fallen to chaos that ally in a variety of forces but that's really where it reaches its peak. To add to that, a lot of the options are the illusion of choice with two of the icons being horrid (fear and soul blaze come to mind) and the marks are of varying qualities with one being almost always useless. It'd bland and really lacks flavor.
That said, this can be said for armies at large. Guardsman, Eldar, Orks, etc. could all use with some thematical rules to benefit a certain playstyle. The themes don't even necessarily need to mean one group. Instead, it can simply be a representation of a grand theme. Call the obviously designed for siege regiments "Lord of the Siege". You know that it's for CSM-Iron Warriors/IG-Blahblahblah but it's vague enough that it isn't as glaring.
This. And from a rules standpoint, I can see how the guard player feels. When it comes to representation in the rules, the Imperial Guard seem to have it the worst. However, aesthetically and unit-wise, the cult legions have it worst.
In an ideal world, there are only Cadians and Black Legion.
Jimsolo wrote: Honestly, I don't see it. The Chaos Legions still seem pretty distinct to me. Never been a super-duper fan of Chaos Marines until relatively recently, so maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention.
Really it's a problem with all the factions to varying extents. The closest to it working is SM and even then it has kinks. The problem is you can't really make the legions. Want to play KSons? Ummmm... I guess you can play Ahriman and just load yourself up with Ksons as troops? Want to play Word Bearers? I guess you can.... ummm bring an apostle that has few options and then just kinda grab some cultists and some standard csm that are still cowardly. Oh and toss some chaos daemons that have no synergy to your army. Just because you get a mark doesn't mean you become that warband. Being a mark of tzeentch doesn't make you a KSon just as much as the Mark of Khorne doesn't equate to you being a Berzerker. It's very good at representing recent warbands that have fallen to chaos that ally in a variety of forces but that's really where it reaches its peak. To add to that, a lot of the options are the illusion of choice with two of the icons being horrid (fear and soul blaze come to mind) and the marks are of varying qualities with one being almost always useless. It'd bland and really lacks flavor.
That said, this can be said for armies at large. Guardsman, Eldar, Orks, etc. could all use with some thematical rules to benefit a certain playstyle. The themes don't even necessarily need to mean one group. Instead, it can simply be a representation of a grand theme. Call the obviously designed for siege regiments "Lord of the Siege". You know that it's for CSM-Iron Warriors/IG-Blahblahblah but it's vague enough that it isn't as glaring.
This. And from a rules standpoint, I can see how the guard player feels. When it comes to representation in the rules, the Imperial Guard seem to have it the worst. However, aesthetically and unit-wise, the cult legions have it worst.
In an ideal world, there are only Cadians and Black Legion.
Probably the most sadenning part was seeing how little fluff there was for the founding legions in CSM. Then flipping open IG and seeing how much the fluff for anybody not Cadian and (to a lesser extent) Catachan got crunched.
I was and still am shocked to see the Catachan Army Box repackaged and put on the shelf like a brand new release. Plastic. That's all it is to them. No sense in letting a plastic kit slip through the cracks when it's plastic! Seriously, a Vostroyan army box would have been nicer to see. And yes, I mean with the current models.
And that's just three off the very top of my head. They are all very fluffy. They all play COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from each other. And these are just a few obvious options, and I'm not even including allies, or going with an unbound list. This is the kind of variety you can easily get from white-bread CSM lists.
No one is forcing you to make a list that looks like anybody else's. If you choose to do that, it's your fault. The CSM codex itself has no shortage of options.
A very bad build but this one is certainly fitting.
The problem with claiming some army design is fluffy is that... well all armies work that way. The books are written in a way where you can really toss an army together as long as it's in a codex and claim its your own special army. As per allies, well the only BB is Daemons. Past that you don't really get any allies that fit with your standard theme until come the apoc with guardsman.
I want to build a Tzeentch army and that's my problem. I can't. It's like beating your head on a desk. Yeah, you can build it but it's purposefully crippling yourself. Thousand Sons? Absolute idiocy to even try. I tried to toss in Chaos Daemons to support but I ended up just building a Tzeentch daemon force and tossing aside CSM. And it still never adresses that CSM are simply SM-
And that's just three off the very top of my head. They are all very fluffy. They all play COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from each other. And these are just a few obvious options, and I'm not even including allies, or going with an unbound list. This is the kind of variety you can easily get from white-bread CSM lists.
No one is forcing you to make a list that looks like anybody else's. If you choose to do that, it's your fault. The CSM codex itself has no shortage of options.
You don't seem to notice that you just gave us a black legion army with allies.
Just ignore him, he feels that the 3.5 codex was just power gamers delight and nothing more, and that 4E and 6E gave chaos far more options as a result, and doesn't really understand chaos.
Quarterdime wrote:You don't seem to notice that you just gave us a black legion army with allies.
No I didn't.
Spoiler:
You'll notice that in the regular codex, abaddon also makes chosen scoring.
StarTrotter wrote:What is this? A Khornate army with some World Eater cult support
An entire army with MoK, devoted solely to getting into close combat, with an axe of blind fury and a juggernought doesn't count as a fluffy khorne list?
I guess it's possible to come up with a definition of fluffy that excludes anything you can make with the CSM codex. I don't see how that definition would be particularly useful, though.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Just ignore him, he feels that the 3.5 codex was just power gamers delight and nothing more, and that 4E and 6E gave chaos far more options as a result, and doesn't really understand chaos.
Frankly, I feel that even 3.5 was flawed. Did I think it was the best of the lot? Most certainly but by no means did I think it was perfect. It had some horrid internal balance issues even, perhaps, more glaring than the SM chapter tactics even.
Quarterdime wrote:You don't seem to notice that you just gave us a black legion army with allies.
No I didn't.
You'll notice that in the regular codex, abaddon also makes chosen scoring.
StarTrotter wrote:What is this? A Khornate army with some World Eater cult support
An entire army with MoK, devoted solely to getting into close combat, with an axe of blind fury and a juggernought doesn't count as a fluffy khorne list?
I guess it's possible to come up with a definition of fluffy that excludes anything you can make with the CSM codex. I don't see how that definition would be particularly useful, though.
But thing is it isn't World Eaters. World Eaters are Khorne but Khorne is not World Eaters. People that want to play World Eaters are stuck to solely playing 1 named character and tons of berzerkers. A recently fallen Khornate warband would be a unit all with a mark of khorne. Berzerkers are to represent an allied contingent of elites from World Eaters that are fighting, at the time, alongside your warband of Khorne. Add to that, it's still not even internally balanced by any means. But please find me a way to even try to play Tzeentch that isn't some terrible list that will be consistently curb stomped
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Just ignore him, he feels that the 3.5 codex was just power gamers delight and nothing more, and that 4E and 6E gave chaos far more options as a result, and doesn't really understand chaos.
Frankly, I feel that even 3.5 was flawed. Did I think it was the best of the lot? Most certainly but by no means did I think it was perfect. It had some horrid internal balance issues even, perhaps, more glaring than the SM chapter tactics even.
Quarterdime wrote:You don't seem to notice that you just gave us a black legion army with allies.
No I didn't.
You'll notice that in the regular codex, abaddon also makes chosen scoring.
StarTrotter wrote:What is this? A Khornate army with some World Eater cult support
An entire army with MoK, devoted solely to getting into close combat, with an axe of blind fury and a juggernought doesn't count as a fluffy khorne list?
I guess it's possible to come up with a definition of fluffy that excludes anything you can make with the CSM codex. I don't see how that definition would be particularly useful, though.
But thing is it isn't World Eaters. World Eaters are Khorne but Khorne is not World Eaters. People that want to play World Eaters are stuck to solely playing 1 named character and tons of berzerkers. A recently fallen Khornate warband would be a unit all with a mark of khorne. Berzerkers are to represent an allied contingent of elites from World Eaters that are fighting, at the time, alongside your warband of Khorne. Add to that, it's still not even internally balanced by any means. But please find me a way to even try to play Tzeentch that isn't some terrible list that will be consistently curb stomped
Can the Aspiring Sorcerers use Malefic Daemonology? Together they could become a massive daemon factory. Start the game with nothing but 1k sons with Malefic Daemonology. Then let the real fun begin! (still that's both a pain and relying on an exploit I'm not really arguing with you on this)
Can the Aspiring Sorcerers use Malefic Daemonology? Together they could become a massive daemon factory. Start the game with nothing but 1k sons with Malefic Daemonology. Then let the real fun begin! (still that's both a pain and relying on an exploit I'm not really arguing with you on this)
They cannot, they have to take the School of Tzeentch.
Also it's far better done, cheaper, and overall better to do it with Chaos Daemons, you won't have the points or warp charges to actually make a daemon factory this way.
StarTrotter wrote:Berzerkers are to represent an allied contingent of elites from World Eaters that are fighting, at the time, alongside your warband of Khorne.
Other people are capable of doing the psycho-surgery. New berzerkers are created all the time that have nothing to do with the world-eater's legion. Meanwhile, there's absolutely nothing at all that says that world eaters won't use terminators, etc.
Like I said, it's possible to conjure up a certain definition of fluffy that discounts things, but you've got to torture the word pretty badly. Or be really lacking in creativity for how something could be justified, fluffwise.
StarTrotter wrote:Add to that, it's still not even internally balanced by any means. But please find me a way to even try to play Tzeentch that isn't some terrible list that will be consistently curb stomped
It's possible to make an all-tzeentch list that does fine. I doubt very much that it could possibly meet your particular definition of fluffy.
And if all you want to do is win games, then do what it takes to win games. Go pick the one strongest option, just like everybody else. That's your choice, though, not a problem with the codex.
StarTrotter wrote:Berzerkers are to represent an allied contingent of elites from World Eaters that are fighting, at the time, alongside your warband of Khorne.
Other people are capable of doing the psycho-surgery. New berzerkers are created all the time that have nothing to do with the world-eater's legion. Meanwhile, there's absolutely nothing at all that says that world eaters won't use terminators, etc. Frankly I just didn't get why you threw in Berzerkers. When people see them they usually think of World Eaters instead of the other means of becoming them. That and mark of khorne hordes can do the job of zerkers better than zerkers themselves.
Like I said, it's possible to conjure up a certain definition of fluffy that discounts things, but you've got to torture the word pretty badly. Or be really lacking in creativity for how something could be justified, fluffwise.
StarTrotter wrote:Add to that, it's still not even internally balanced by any means. But please find me a way to even try to play Tzeentch that isn't some terrible list that will be consistently curb stomped
It's possible to make an all-tzeentch list that does fine. I doubt very much that it could possibly meet your particular definition of fluffy.
And if all you want to do is win games, then do what it takes to win games. Go pick the one strongest option, just like everybody else. That's your choice, though, not a problem with the codex.
And so too are the berzerkers always required to have veterans of the long war I do believe. And, if memory serves me, it isn't quite as widely used as you might claim. If memory serves me, it was impressive that Abaddon managed to make his own forces.
As per your latter argument. It's not that. The thing is... what makes a fluffy army? How do I build a fluffy Thousand Son army? Just use KSons as troops and bring Ahriman? Is that really all my choice comes down to? I s that really the end all be all of building a Thousand Son force?
And thing is, I don't want to win all my games. I really don't care to. But I'm not playing a fluffy army. I'm just playing a game where I'm crippling myself and being walked on without meaning to. My friend loves Tau and he loves Riptides. He didn't plan to, he's top tier. My friend loves Eldar and built a mech list with waveserpents. Guess what became cheese when their new codex came out And I love Tzeentch. But why pick the mark? Why ever touch it? What's it do? Give you a +1 to your invuln save? So what is it even worth thinking of putting on? Daemons, Terminators, and HQs with the sigil. Even then at best it can only ever become a 3+ invuln save as though it needed another drawback. The icon? Soul Blaze. A forgettable, insignificant spell that leads to just more bookwork. And what of the spells? Perhaps most insultingly, the god of magic's own spells are the worst and you are forced to take from them. The boon of mutation is worthless to harmful with the only real useful spell being DOOMBOLT. Every time I sit there, I ask, why pick Tzeentch? He isn't worth a single poitn despite often being second to most costly of all the upgrades. Why mark my sorcerers with it when leaving them unmarked makes them feel more mighty as a spell caster. Why is there no real way to work with summoning daemons? Why is it that marks are so useless on cultists? Why hand me options if you are just going to make me pause and ask... what's the point of a 6+ invuln save? It's the illusion of choice. I want a game where all options are good. Perhaps not in the same combo but always viable in some way or form. And to expect failure but them to be worked on. A way so that my friends and I don't have to worry about stomping matches ever really occuring. I like close matches, not ones where it's us just tabling one another turn 3.
So, let's say I want to create an Emperor's Children army. So, I take Lucius the Eternal, Noise Marines as troops and... uhm...?
Where are my options?
My generic Chaos Lord can't take a Doom Siren. Terminators don't have access to any sonic weapons and aren't Fearless. My Vehicles don't have access to sonic weapons either. Dreadnoughts can't get bonus to Initiative or Assault grenades. There are no units signature to ECs I could take except for the Noise Marines. No special abilities, no rules equivalent to Chapter Tactics that would make my army feel and play distinct.
All I get is +1 to Initiative.
Guess why my army is Children of Torment and not Emperor's Children? Because there's no way I could do justice to the latter with the current Codex. That's why I've chosen a "Black Legion + MoS" warband as a poor-man's substitute.
While I would kill for more sonic weapons, playing Emperor's Children doesn't mean taking only Noisemarines and Sonic Weapons for all. Take marked units with CCWs in Rhinos. Terminators. Bikers. Helbrutes. Etc. the Legion would have plenty of these.
Or, and I hesitate to say this as I would desperately love an Emp Child supplement, don't play the main Legions? I am heavily centred around Slaanesh. But my army isn't Emperor's Children. Terrifying as it may seem, I invented my own Warband, centred around a warlord who was part of the Legion during the Heresy but that's all. Might I suggest people start using more imagination and not try to exactly mimic the one way an author presented an idea nice that they liked?
Or, and I hesitate to say this as I would desperately love an Emp Child supplement, don't play the main Legions? I am heavily centred around Slaanesh. But my army isn't Emperor's Children. Terrifying as it may seem, I invented my own Warband, centred around a warlord who was part of the Legion during the Heresy but that's all.
That's more or less what I did. With Children of Torment I manage to have a Slaaneshi CSM army that is fluffy, since it's just Black Legion with NMs and MoS.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: Might I suggest people start using more imagination and not try to exactly mimic the one way an author presented an idea nice that they liked?
It's not really nice, you know. But the saddest thing about this is that we have to do this.
Perhaps GW feel that there would be too much of a clash with FW's 30K range to focus on the original legions for now.
Just a theory, and probably wrong. I do find it bizarre that the Crimson Slaughter get their own codex when 8 out of 9 of the original traitor legions have not. Given the amount of attention the legions continue to get through the HH series you'd think they'd want to give them some 40K tabletop love.
And yet in the 7e fluffbook the Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion don't even get individual entries.
Ailaros wrote: Yeah. I mean, tell me what fluffy list you used to be able to build, that you can't build anymore.
Can you build a fluffy alpha legion list with cultists and infiltrating space marines and no vehicles? Yes. Can you build a fluffy khorne list with just khorne berzerkers, MoK terminators and some allied bloodletters? Yes. Can you build a word bearers army with a dark apostle and a bunch of demon engines and allied demons? Yes.
You can do everything you could do before, it's just now you can also do more stuff. More stuff is only less creativity for people who rely on restrictions to be creative.
Nope, Can't do a Thousand Sons army because your Termies, Dreads and Havocs are all normal troops, when in the fluff every single non sorcerer marine is supposed to be dust. 3.5 let you do this, but 4th onwards has not allowed this.
Can't do a deathguard because no plague termies/havocs, just marked ones.
Can't do deathgaurd because we have no berserker bikers or Termies.
No options in the codex to give all vehicles sonic weaponry so there is no option to do an Emperor's Children army.
Chucking a mark (ie: a color scheme) on a unit and suddenly calling it different is exactly what the OP means by bland homogenization. The entirety of chaos can now be summed up with +1 attack, +InvSv +1Toughness or +1inititative. Chaos used to be way more diverse and interesting. Not to mention the one Allegiance that should be easy to portray, is near enough impossible because Undivided marks no longer exist. So now you can't do Word Bearers, which specifically ban marks to any one god over another, unless you do a boring army of CSM squads with no buffs (ie; You might as well play C:SM).
For me, I feel like the codex isn't awful, but at times can feel like SM with marks and dinobots. I feel like the supplements were more of a big 'screw you' from GW. I would rather have Iron Warriors and Night Lords than Black legion and Crimson Slaughter. Those two forces get hardly a look-in in the latest codex, which sucks because they're some of the most individualistic armies CSM have. Black Legion? Yeah, because the codex didn't have enough Black Legion in it already...And Crimson Slaughter? Who the hell are they? I get that they're there in order to entice newer players to the chaos side and try and keep it fresh, but I mean come on. And Obliterators and Raptors being able to take marks after always being described as part of 'obliterator cults' and raptors worshiping the 'raptor god' is just a merciless beating against the fluff.
Toastaster wrote: For me, I feel like the codex isn't awful, but at times can feel like SM with marks and dinobots. I feel like the supplements were more of a big 'screw you' from GW. I would rather have Iron Warriors and Night Lords than Black legion and Crimson Slaughter. Those two forces get hardly a look-in in the latest codex, which sucks because they're some of the most individualistic armies CSM have. Black Legion? Yeah, because the codex didn't have enough Black Legion in it already...And Crimson Slaughter? Who the hell are they? I get that they're there in order to entice newer players to the chaos side and try and keep it fresh, but I mean come on. And Obliterators and Raptors being able to take marks after always being described as part of 'obliterator cults' and raptors worshiping the 'raptor god' is just a merciless beating against the fluff.
Raptors have always been able to take marks, even in 3.5. Many of them also serve general chaos gods as well, ditto Obliterators.
Also however, for my Emperor's Children Army:
Can I take Combat Drugs to increase the Effectiveness of my Drug Addled Warriors?
Can I take A Chaos Lord kitted to the teeth in Slaaneshi Artifacts and blessed with Slaanesh's gifts?
Will my possessed be able to take rending talons and be blessed with super-natural speed without acting as if they were possessed by every single daemon at once. They are possessed by Daemonettes, not plaguebearers.
Will my elite chosen be blessed with gifts of slaanesh? Or maybe perhaps be gifted warriors skilled in weapon and blade? Or maybe even riding upon steeds of Slaanesh as having proven themselves worthy of riding with the Chaos Lord
Can my Helbrute's be equipped with Blastmasters? Or perhaps their screams can be amplified by Doom Sirens?
Will my Vehicles be upgraded with Sonic Weaponry? Or maybe perhaps equipped in a manner that will allow those who desire to take themselves in the melee to charge out on an assault ramp?
If not, then my army pretty much isn't fluff based at all.
GW care, hence why chaos arevstill around and have a fairly decent codex. We have got newer stuff lately amd are getting mor in the summer. The reason its mainly undivided is so people can create those undividef warbands. I mean its not hard to create/convert god specific marines. I play my daemons and marines as tzeentch and have no problem with the range. It gives us the chance to createvour own vision and views on what that god specific warband would look like. If they only did god specific options people would moan about there being no creativity aspects or freedom so yea.
necronspurs2012 wrote: GW care, hence why chaos arevstill around and have a fairly decent codex. We have got newer stuff lately amd are getting mor in the summer. The reason its mainly undivided is so people can create those undividef warbands. I mean its not hard to create/convert god specific marines. I play my daemons and marines as tzeentch and have no problem with the range. It gives us the chance to createvour own vision and views on what that god specific warband would look like. If they only did god specific options people would moan about there being no creativity aspects or freedom so yea.
You and I have a very different idea of what makes a "fairly decent codex."
Also, I barely understood your post. Use better grammar and spelling please. I don't see how giving players more options for god specific armies will limit people who want undivided armies. (Not that those get any love either.)
GW does not care enough to make chaos great.
Chaos Space Marines and their Demon friends got more and more generic-looking as the rulesets ground on, and now they look comparatively bland. Chaos used to be used as a sort of free-for-all to let the sculptors do really cool and unusual things; now it doesn't seem like that anymore. I'm even more distressed about the models than the rules.
I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?
Go ahead I'll wait.
Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.
I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?
Go ahead I'll wait.
Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.
I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.
Your berserkers are pretty nice, be they leftovers from 3rd edition. And your juggernaut lord... Is where, exactly? I'm not seeing a model. Nice of them to put rules in, and nice to see people desperate to turn the Fantasy chaos lord into a space marine, but really those legs are no space marine legs, and this has already been discussed. Guard are in the same situation, however not as badly due to the iconography issue. The star of chaos is a symbol of chaos undivided. Painting it red can't turn it into a Khorne icon. You can paint a Leman Russ in Vostroyan colors and that's something that they surely would have. While if I were to use a maulerfiend for Emperor's Children, well... I'd have to get to work converting, wouldn't I?
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?
Go ahead I'll wait.
Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.
I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.
You must have glanced over my post saying the same thing.
But remember just because one has it worse doesnt mean both shouldn't be fixed. But I think Imperial Guard have the worst end of the straw certainly.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?
Go ahead I'll wait.
Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.
I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.
I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:
- Thousand Sons - World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's children - Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion) - Post-Heresy renegades - Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)
Think about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.
Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!
So I'm starting to see what your talking about, I suppose I was leaning more heavily on the rules side of things but it seems you feel cheated about the looks too. OK that's certainly more fair in my opinion than the rules aspect.
To me, Berzerker plastic models > Mordian Iron Guard Metal models. And I suppose I am a little different in that I convert pretty much ALL my models so doing a little bit of conversion from a bloodcrusher doesn't bother me (in fact I prefer it). The difference between a Khorne model and a black legion model is the color, the head, the weapon, and some chains, skulls, and icons. Easy to make.
Meanwhile, the difference between a Mordian and a Acadian are so profoundly different I may as we'll not even bother trying to convert them. They are just too different aesthetically.
The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.
necronspurs2012 wrote: The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.
The funny thing is if they dropped the 3.5 ed chaos book into current 40k it still wouldn't be as bad as elderp or tau, guard may have an issue and marines would be fine.
Op for the time but hardly a splash next to superheavies, 2++, riptides, jetseer, wave serpent spam etc.
Oh and I want the helldrake to be a fmc that cannot land or a av11/11/11, that thing a slight tone down
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
I could create a thread about how good chaos has it compared to guard, what with their different marks, icons, cult troops, relics, war gear options, etc. What do guard get?
Go ahead I'll wait.
Since you won't be able to come up with anything I'll continue; this isn't about guard I know. But it's important to bring it up because GW gives chaos many more opportunities than most other factions. There is only so much rules writing can do. It's up to players to find identities for their own armies and fight that way.
I play chaos almost as much as my guard. With chaos, I get to use Berzerkers, juggernaught lords, and units I can be generally assaults with. With my Mordians I get to... Uhm... Hmm.
I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:
- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)
This about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.
Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!
Even though that's 100% true, it's impractical to execute. I think it's reasonable to simply ask for a single codex that simply provides at least SOME units that are unique to certain types of legions. How about a plastic Plague Marines box with new options like plague spewers? Or Thousand Sons mutant serfs? Maybe a daemon engine just for the Emperor's Children? Or a Lord of Skulls for the world eaters I forgot about the Lord of Skulls. Alright, credit where credit is due, Games Workshop. I know it was just you being lazy and falling back on a pre-existing unit, but that was a good choice to make regardless. World Eaters is actually something representable, I think. All they need is an actual Berserker lord on a juggernaut...
You must have glanced over my post saying the same thing.
But remember just because one has it worse doesnt mean both shouldn't be fixed. But I think Imperial Guard have the worst end of the straw certainly.
No, I read yours but I was trying to finish my post quickly to go mow my lawn as there was a storm brewing. I was going to cite that you had already said the same thing essentially, but ran out of time and I apologize for that. My reply to you would be, if one has it worse than another then shouldn't the worse be fixed before the better?
Hedgehog wrote:
I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:
- Thousand Sons
- World Eaters
- Death Guard
- Emperor's children
- Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion)
- Post-Heresy renegades
- Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)
This about it this way - Space Marines are represented by no less than four individual codices, each of which plays in a different way. Chaos has one single codex, trying to represent seven hugely different armies, with far greater differences between them than there between any of the SM codices.
Add in the fact that CSM players are not playing purely to win - only the 3.5 codex ever allowed us to do that reliably. Instead, most CSM players are in it because they are really attracted to the background, feel and playstyle of their particular faction. So it's no wonder that most are disappointed that they can't adequately represent that faction... especially when they used to be able to do so with the 3.5 codex and Index Astartes articles!
I agree with you about the chaos being "more deserving" for independent codices, but one is the flagship icon of the game and the other is "the bad guys" so I dont think we will ever see anything like different codexes for marines. Again, not saying there shouldn't be, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Do you mean the players who pick up armies because they are the best during an edition, such as Eldar now, gray knights in 5th or tau at the end of 6th? Then yes in suppose your point is valid. There aren't very many people who picked up chaos marines with their new codex because they were the best.
Edit: iPad autocorrect issues
Also, as I'm writing this there is only 23 minutes until game time- go USA!
necronspurs2012 wrote: The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.
Read the thread next time...
Ive read it. This was a reply to another comment. Get your facts straight
necronspurs2012 wrote: The chaos marins dex is good just coz the helldrake is not uber op anymore it is still a good unit. As are obliterators. My arguement wasnt against god specific parts as id love that for tzeentch. But my arguement was against the way you put it, about how they are completely generic. Rules you can make them how you want, bitz there are some decent god bitz and the capability to convert. And Daemons are not like a generic army they have four different sides to the codex and models represemt their gods (coming from someone who has played them since mid 5th. Im a cron player and are dex is reaply not good. We only have two certain builds that work. Heavy scythe or heavy wraiths. So sstop moaning there are worse off codexs. We cant all be broken like tau.
Read the thread next time...
Ive read it. This was a reply to another comment. Get your facts straight
Your reply, no matter which comment it was directed at, suggests otherwise. But I admit I don't think Chaos Daemons are generic.
Opening the chaos dex and looking at it my options if I want to make legion specific armies are:
Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.
Iron Warriors
Well now with unbound and all that we can get Basalisks back but I'm not sure if that should count since it's not in the marine codex. Looking in there we have the warpsmith which is cool, and the oblitorators. I'd never run it because of balance issues (which is sad because I want to) but the list is there.
Night Lords
There is really nothing Night Lord specific here. All we can really do is throw down a lot of Warp Talons and Raptors but spamming the two cliche units does not make an army. No HQ to go with them, no way to make basic marines feel 'night lordy' in any way. Just the exact same jump pack heavy list anyone else can take.
World Eaters
Bezerkers and a wargear item or two. Basic marines and chosen can be build for cc which is fine, MoK is fine, but termis or bikes are still sorely missing. Again, doable but not ideal.
Death Guard.
Plauge marines and, again, not much else. The difference here is a little more pronounced since you could argue that basic marines with MoK are good enough for a WE army, but chosen and termies without blight grenades or Feel No Pain starts to really stand out.
Thousand Sons
Ruberic marines and nothing else. Everything in that army fluffwise should be a sorcerer or dust in a suit of armour. That can not be done here unless you're running an army of nothing but Ruberics and sorcerer HQs.
Black Legion
Well yeah, you can do this one pretty well. That's kinda the complaint, that 'Codex Chaos Marines' has become 'Codex Black Legion' and then Black Legion got given a damn supplement where the other legions desperately need one.
Word Bearers
Well, you can summon daemons now. Other than that and the Dark Apostle HQ what can you really do there that doesn't just feel like basic marines with a lot less toys and a few different ones? Like the IW most of the cool extra fluffy stuff comes from adding allies on top with little in the way of actual Word Bearers other than some plain troops and possessed?
Alpha Legion
The most fluffy way to do this army forces you to take Huron Blackheart to infiltrate some troops. That tells you all you really need to know. No infiltrate anymore. Finally got cultists back only for them to be armed with only the 3 odd weapons that come in the snap fit kit. You are bound by that bloody challenge thing and the gift table even though it goes entirely against the fluff. All in all you are still much better off running them with codex space marines.
So of the 9 traitor legions I can run like 5. Or run all of 2, maybe 3, well?
I wouldn't ever call that a good dex for building fluffy armies.
I like that the rant is centred upon the four traitor legions that have their own specific unit and character in the codex are seen as the ones that have been hard done by whereas iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion and word bearers have no way of differentiating themselves at all
Kyutaru wrote: GW is what doesn't care. We care. I haven't purchased models in years. Everyone dies sooner or later. In Jervis's case, we can pray for it to be sooner.
This.
Don't support their half-assed attempts. Spend money when they do your codex justice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Obviously you still love CSM need your models, snag them up off eBay and Dakka Swap Shop. Your doing everyone a favour, saving yourself money, helping some guy get rid of unwanted models (that he's obviously not going to replace from the GW store at double the price), and your helping the entire community out by not supporting GW in their decision to write lazy rules just because they know it can sell anyway, instead of paying someone to do it properly.
Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.
I have shown you why Emperor's Children is a horrible representation a page ago, it's not just "SONICS"
jonolikespie wrote: Opening the chaos dex and looking at it my options if I want to make legion specific armies are:
Spoiler:
Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.
Iron Warriors
Well now with unbound and all that we can get Basalisks back but I'm not sure if that should count since it's not in the marine codex. Looking in there we have the warpsmith which is cool, and the oblitorators. I'd never run it because of balance issues (which is sad because I want to) but the list is there.
Night Lords
There is really nothing Night Lord specific here. All we can really do is throw down a lot of Warp Talons and Raptors but spamming the two cliche units does not make an army. No HQ to go with them, no way to make basic marines feel 'night lordy' in any way. Just the exact same jump pack heavy list anyone else can take.
World Eaters
Bezerkers and a wargear item or two. Basic marines and chosen can be build for cc which is fine, MoK is fine, but termis or bikes are still sorely missing. Again, doable but not ideal.
Death Guard.
Plauge marines and, again, not much else. The difference here is a little more pronounced since you could argue that basic marines with MoK are good enough for a WE army, but chosen and termies without blight grenades or Feel No Pain starts to really stand out.
Thousand Sons
Ruberic marines and nothing else. Everything in that army fluffwise should be a sorcerer or dust in a suit of armour. That can not be done here unless you're running an army of nothing but Ruberics and sorcerer HQs.
Black Legion
Well yeah, you can do this one pretty well. That's kinda the complaint, that 'Codex Chaos Marines' has become 'Codex Black Legion' and then Black Legion got given a damn supplement where the other legions desperately need one.
Word Bearers
Well, you can summon daemons now. Other than that and the Dark Apostle HQ what can you really do there that doesn't just feel like basic marines with a lot less toys and a few different ones? Like the IW most of the cool extra fluffy stuff comes from adding allies on top with little in the way of actual Word Bearers other than some plain troops and possessed?
Alpha Legion
The most fluffy way to do this army forces you to take Huron Blackheart to infiltrate some troops. That tells you all you really need to know. No infiltrate anymore. Finally got cultists back only for them to be armed with only the 3 odd weapons that come in the snap fit kit. You are bound by that bloody challenge thing and the gift table even though it goes entirely against the fluff. All in all you are still much better off running them with codex space marines.
So of the 9 traitor legions I can run like 5. Or run all of 2, maybe 3, well?
I wouldn't ever call that a good dex for building fluffy armies.
Quoted for truth. If you want to make something fluffy, you are forced to add demons and reduce your actual power armoured component as much as possible, ideally leaving only cult troops or posessed.
Ailaros wrote: Yeah. I mean, tell me what fluffy list you used to be able to build, that you can't build anymore.
A chaos warband with a champion as leader and his associated mutated followers. I mean you can make one but it lacks all the individuality that it had in 1st edition. It also requires a lot less d100 tables though too
Emperor's Children
As has been stated there are no sonic weapons for dreads or vehicles. I get noise marines and marks on things. It's certainly doable but could be lot better.
I have shown you why Emperor's Children is a horrible representation a page ago, it's not just "SONICS"
Formosa wrote: The funny thing is if they dropped the 3.5 ed chaos book into current 40k it still wouldn't be as bad as elderp or tau, guard may have an issue and marines would be fine.
Op for the time but hardly a splash next to superheavies, 2++, riptides, jetseer, wave serpent spam etc.
Oh and I want the helldrake to be a fmc that cannot land or a av11/11/11, that thing a slight tone down
Has anyone actually done this? Played the 3.5 'dex in a 5th or 6th Ed game? Because I think that might actually be viable for CSM fluff monsters. We'd get exactly what we want (fluffy armies) and our opponents would'nt have to face Helldrakes.
I think the difference here is that most Chaos players don't see Chaos Space Marines as a single codex. There really should be seven:
- Thousand Sons - World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's children - Undivided Legions (perhaps with the equivalent of Chapter Tactics for Black Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion) - Post-Heresy renegades - Lost and the Damned (cultists and similar)
Too many, just like SM
1 dex for the 4 cults, they don't need a whole codex each 1 dex for the 5 undivided legions, same reason as above 1 dex for LATD
On the allies chart they would be bunched together under "Followers of Chaos" or similar (as Imperium is in 7th)
As a Black Legion player I strongly disagree with C:CSM being 'Black Legion'. We get a character, that's it. It's as much Black Legion as it is Red Corsairs. Then our supplement talks about how we've allowed many to join since the heresy, but the rules make it clear, no veteran = no black.
Would it be a good idea to break chaos into 4 books? Codex: Lost and the Damned, Codex: Renegades, Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Chaos Daemons. Have all them be battle brothers with each other and let each book focus on a certain aspect of chaos. For example the Legion book would have traits, gear and relics for each of the legions but lack in having loyalist gear. While Codex: Renegades could be a mix of chaos and loyalist.
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: Would it be a good idea to break chaos into 4 books? Codex: Lost and the Damned, Codex: Renegades, Codex: Chaos Legions and Codex: Chaos Daemons. Have all them be battle brothers with each other and let each book focus on a certain aspect of chaos. For example the Legion book would have traits, gear and relics for each of the legions but lack in having loyalist gear. While Codex: Renegades could be a mix of chaos and loyalist.
Definitely agree there should a LATD codex but I disagree on needing two Chaos Space Marines books. Renegades can be done with the current book and SM allies if you want a newly fallen warband. Legions don't need a separate book, they just need tweaking of the rules to make them feel unique from each other. And no more random possessed.
Firstly, bring back the old veteran abilities and daemonic mutations so we can upgrade our squads and champions to feel more individual.
Secondly something like this for Legion upgrades for units.
Upgrades would be costed based on how good the buffs are that they give.
Thousand Sons: All is dust, a unit with this upgrade follows the rules for Rubric Marines, except the champion who is upgraded to a sorcerer for X amount of points, grants the unit fearless. May not be applied to fast attack units, or Possessed.
Emperor's Children: All units gain access to sonic weaponry, become fearless, plus one initiative and rending (to represent their sublime swordsmanship)
Death Guard: All units with this mark gain feel no pain, blight grenades and fearless but also become bulky so take up 2 slots in a transport (to represent the bloated size and also reflect the DG fluff that they use fewer Rhinos). May not be applied to Raptors or Warp Talons.
World Eaters: All units with the upgrade get Rage +1 attack, Fearless and may pay for a chain axe. Cannot be given to Havocs.
My non-mono god marks are a little more difficult for me to think of so just remember these are just ideas.
Word Bearers: Something like +1 to summoning attempts, fearless, possessed as troops if Lord has this mark.
Iron Warriors: fearless, +1 to cover saves (or minus 1 to enemy cover saves that the unit is targeting) to represent seige warfare.
Nightlords: Stealth, Hit and Run, all units with this mark may voluntarily fall back at the end of an assault phase and immediately regroup in their own turn. (Notice, no fearless because they are supposed to be all about preying on the weak, not honourable fights) Nightlords Champions do not have to make or accept challenges.
Alpha Legion: Only mark that can be given to cultists as well as Astartes units. Gives infiltrate, deep striking units do not scatter if within 6 of a unit with the upgrade. Cultists with this mark may take melta bombs to make them a more guerilla type unit. If the Unit Champion or Independant character loses his last wound roll a dice, on a 6 another marine in the squad dies instead (he was in disguise all along)
Now these are obviously not perfect, but it's just a little idea that proves with less than a page of rules for special marks, you can create the feel of the legions without slapping on restrictive lists or needing a separate codex. With the mark system you could mix and match legions as you wished, or go pure if you wanted to. I think this would add a lot of the flavour we have been craving, without needing new models or units.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.
Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.
Kyutaru wrote: Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.
This. Every CSM player has been hoping for each subsequent CSM codex since 3.5 to live up to it - and has been disappointed every time.
GW doesn't really want to do the type of codex most CSM players want. The problem is they want C:CSM to be like the Vanilla Marine codex, where the player finds their own distinctive flavor. Chaos marines have suffered modelwise and ruleswise from a certain laziness on GWs part. CSM could work the way GW wants it, but first they'd need more units to choose from and marks should be expanded and tailored to units more. The example, why can't a mark of slaanesh convey a sonic weapon?-GW just doesn't want to represent all those rich variations.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.
I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.
I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.
I play both and I'll have to disagree. Then again it's because most of them end up being meaningless. A 6+ invuln really doesn't make them different troops, a +1I really only matters in CC. Stuff like that ruins really any sense of picking them. Picking an icon that gives fear is that same illusion of choice. IG can field veterans both mechanized, air forced, and footslogging (chimera, taurox, and valkyrie). Then you have the platoon command squad, heavy weapon squads, standard troop units that can be as small as 10 or massive, conscripts, and special weapon units. I really think that IG wins out for diversity in regards to troops in the end. Really, the IG force makes me feel like I'm playing different armies. I feel a distinctive different style when I play them.
That, however, does not mean that I think IG properly represents IG. No, I actually do not believe this is so. IG and CSM, in my personal opinion, suffer the most from trying to represent too much with too little. It's a problem with many codices in general but I feel it most in these two armies which really do represent some of the widest forces out there, the most numerous, the most varied. It doesn't help that IG lost several options when their new codex came out. I was saddened to see regiment characters taken out that really could spice things up and especially sad to see the tallarn commander removed who did bring in a distinctive playstyle. That said, the IG feels more varied and is coupled with Forgeworld blessing IG with the most variation along with SM in a way that Chaos doesn't even touch. That and CSM is an utter mess with vague hints of Lost and the Damned, Renegades, Legions both undivided, not really god at all, and cult legions all mixed up in some mess with bad ideas tossed upon it all.
It's clear that Forgeworld saw this problem as well. If you've ever looked at their Chaos section you'll see a dreadnaught, rhino, and land raider conversion for every traitor legion. Not to mention some nice Khorne units, too. But I feel like even here there's not the same amount of enthusiasm is there is with most other armies. For example, how old is all that I just mentioned? 4 years old? At least? They've stopped for some reason, and if I had to guess I'd say it's 30k. Apparently they're done for 40k now.
Ignatius wrote: I think the word I would use to describe my thoughts after reading most of this thread is: baffled.
So you're telling me that chaos space marines have no identity, specialization, or anything that makes playing them different between armies?
Have you people ever looked at the Imperial Guard? An army that is totally different depending on the regiment you play as fluff wise, yet has ZERO differences between actual gameplay armies. With codex chaos marines, you at least get different marks to use. You guys are all complaining marks don't satisfy your desires to play differently and create an identity, but yet are ignoring the fact that almost on other codex allows players to differentiate between their average units.
As both an IG and a CSM player, the basic IG book has a tons of inbuilt variation to make much more mechanically different armies than the CSM book. And if you include Forgeworld stuff for IG, they can get monstrously varied indeed.
I play both too and I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I feel I have a lot more variation with my chaos army than I do with my guard. Coupled with the fact that with chaos, your regular marines have a couple different options to make them at least somewhat different from another armies. Guardsmen from army A are guardsmen from army B are guardsmen from army Z. Chaos marines on the other hand have at least some things that allow for variation. Whether they are necessarily all that game changing or not, they are at least still there.
Guard armies play much more radically different however depending on how you build them. A Mechanized Vet IG army is a completely different army than a a blob-horde army, which is yet distinct from a mechanized platoon army, which in turn is quite distinct in playstyle from a Scions list, with accompanying vastly different typical support options. With CSM's, your support options are much more limited, viable support options even moreso, and aside from Berzerkers, most CSM troops will play *roughly* similarly, just to different degrees of effectiveness with mechanization or whatnot making little difference.
Quarterdime wrote: It's clear that Forgeworld saw this problem as well. If you've ever looked at their Chaos section you'll see a dreadnaught, rhino, and land raider conversion for every traitor legion. Not to mention some nice Khorne units, too. But I feel like even here there's not the same amount of enthusiasm is there is with most other armies. For example, how old is all that I just mentioned? 4 years old? At least? They've stopped for some reason, and if I had to guess I'd say it's 30k. Apparently they're done for 40k now.
yep they do vehicle doors ( which i have everywhere, they are niiiice) and i have 2 of the thousand sons dreads. the only problem i see with all of these is that models no matter how nice dont help with the rules, a thousand sons dread doesnt get ap3 HB. same as they still sell a dread with sonic weapons, but you cant use is in game due to no rules for it :(
GW's always taken the position of the non-imperial codices being written from an imperial perspective. This lazy incoherent indistinct blob is how the imperium sees chaos.
C:CSM doesn't represent much and in my opinion that would have been ok if they used supplements to expand on these other flavors of Chaos instead of just giving us more of the same. For example the codex is ill suited for representing recently renegade Chaos marines, however a supplement is the perfect form for bridging the gap between C:SM and C:CSM. A supplement could have expanded the rules to give more god specific variants to feed the mono god lists. If GW had cohesive and thought out vision the current codex could been better focused, with renegades and mono-god represented elsewhere it gives the codex that much more room to expand on the other flavors of chaos.
FW's next IA book is suppose to be chaos... So we might get actual rules for their different older chaos model in addition to some of the HH stuff.
aka_mythos wrote: GW's always taken the position of the non-imperial codices being written from an imperial perspective. This lazy incoherent indistinct blob is how the imperium sees chaos.
C:CSM doesn't represent much and in my opinion that would have been ok if they used supplements to expand on these other flavors of Chaos instead of just giving us more of the same. For example the codex is ill suited for representing recently renegade Chaos marines, however a supplement is the perfect form for bridging the gap between C:SM and C:CSM. A supplement could have expanded the rules to give more god specific variants to feed the mono god lists. If GW had cohesive and thought out vision the current codex could been better focused, with renegades and mono-god represented elsewhere it gives the codex that much more room to expand on the other flavors of chaos.
FW's next IA book is suppose to be chaos... So we might get actual rules for their different older chaos model in addition to some of the HH stuff.
I'm really curious about this upcoming IA and how it'll be oriented. Probably focused on the CSM side though. Does anybody know how the other main chaos FW book focuses? I assume it has some Imperial bits in it?
Basically, CSM needs Forgeworld Horus Heresy Legion rules 'updated' to 40k to represent the character of the individual legions, alongside Rites of War.
I think (30k people can confirm or deny) that people playing 30k Alpha Legion feel like they're able to run a list that 'feels' like Alpha Legion should, and gives them some actual benefits for it. If you do the Coils of the Hydra rite, you get to pick a unit that would only be something someone else could run, but it turns out they're Alpha Legion infiltrators instead. Death Guard, Salamanders, and Word Bearers get better morale/fear immunity for their traditional stubborn natures. Emperor's Children characters get sonic shriekers. Death Guard gets chem munitions for any unit, not just their unique ones.
There are a bunch of other examples from 30k, so it's clear that some part of GW wants this, because they put it in the Horus Heresy books. It's just that somehow those efforts don't extend to 40kCSM, so we instead get the 4th edition Codex: Red Corsairs, updated with the option to be 6th edition Codex: Black Legion (Vets of the Long War totally represents all Chaos Legions, man).
Even the plastic Chaos Space Marines box only has ten to a dozen heads included that are each extremely distinct and identifiable as duplicates. Also, some legions, like maybe Night Lords or the Alpha Legion, don't look that becoming wearing massive horned helmets. At least the Night Lords have their own conversion kit. ...Hey wait a minute... So do the Iron Warriors... Add the forgeworld kits, and... huh. Looks like Games Workshop has actually covered their ass on this after all. So it's actually possible to field the infantry of any army you want. You just have to be willing to shell out around $50 for ten models, and then play them with house rules. Thanks Games Workshop! For keeping our Battered Housewife Syndrome alive and well!
....Except for the Emperor's Children. Noise Marines =/= Emperor's Children
Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.
Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.
Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).
If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.
So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.
I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.
Ignatius wrote: Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.
Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.
Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).
If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.
So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.
I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.
Unless you are Space Marines of course
Frankly my problem comes down to not being able to field a Thousand Son army. I can't pretend like marked terminators are Thousand Sons because they are not. A marked sorcerer is not a Thousand Son either. The only way to fit into the fluff is to grab Ahriman and Ksons with maybe the flair of a few vehicles (although it is important to note that historically KSons were very booted to floor magic fun times with support from hordes of spire guard replaced by cultists and some automiton machines). I can't grab terminators and just say they are because they don't function slightly like other KSons. Heck, GK work better for KSons than their own codex. That and I can't even opt for a Tzeentch force because there is basically no good time to pick the mark of Tzeentch
Ignatius wrote: Chaos marine armies can be different too depending on how you build them... Just as all armies can be. My point was about chaos marines being one of the few codexes that at least gives you the option to make your regular units different.
Again, not saying chaos marine marks and icons are necessarily that great at representing differences, but at least it is there. A luxury that isn't shared by many armies.
Sure the newest codex is lacking a bit compared to the 3.5 codex, but this "homogenization" is happening all across the game. GW is moving from having rules that make armies different, to just allowing the players to make choices about how their armies are different from others. This comes during unit selection, but more importantly by how the units are used on the battlefield. But in this regard, chaos has weathered a bit better than some other armies out there (bar Space Marines with their chapter tactics).
If an Eldar players wants to represent a certain craft world what do they do? They take units associated with the craft world (wraith units, or guardians, or Farseers, or jet bikes, etc). If an imperial guard player wants to represent a regiment, what do they do? They (sadly, as I miss doctrines) take blobs, or a lot of chimeras, or leman russes, or valks, etc. If a Dark Eldar player wants to play a different army, they take witches, or wrecks, or warriors, etc. It goes on.
So what should a chaos marine player do? Take units associated with the legion, or chapter, or army they want to represent. And while I think there is obviously room where they can give a few more options, they achieve this better than most other armies.
I'm starting to question whether this is about diversity and more about the diversity not being competitive enough for some.
You're dead wrong. If you want to play Emperor's Children, you can't paint your Chaos Space Marines pink and black and make some of them noise marines. Nor can you give them any sonic warmachines. The same applies to Thousand Sons. You can't give them Rubric Terminators or Mutant Serfs. Hell, even any Sorcerer HQ choice you could give them will have multiple stars of chaos on him for you to ignore! Chaos isn't about sharing. It's about diversity. More than any other faction. Try to imagine each craft world made up of units that are mostly unique to them. Imagine what it would be like if Jetbikes were a unit exclusive to the Saim-Hann craftworld. Now imagine that Jetbikes don't have any models, rules, or representation in the codex itself. That is where we are with Chaos Space Marines.
Ignatius wrote: How can you not field a Thousand Sons army? What is missing from the codex that used to be there to make your army?
What do you mean by "no good time to pick the mark of tzeentch?" You mean competitive wise? Because that would seem to validate my final line..
There's only two things that fit a fluffy KSon army in the codex. Thousand Sons and Ahriman. Nothing else is a Kson in the book. A marked terminator is simply a Tzeentchian dedicated renegade CSM that is more recent and has come to support KSons. The last time KSons even worked somewhat well was in 3.5 where the rules were for all models. Even then there were a really bad army but I've stuck by them out of a love for them. Heck, I've gotten to the point I play GK for KSons more often than not simply because it feels more Thousand Sonish. Thing is, Thousand Sons are an odd creature entirely. What are they? The two big things are automitons and Sorcerers. Every unit has a sorcerer leading them as the only living individuals with their psyker powers dramatically enhanced by the rubricate. The rest are suits of dust that are walking ghosts of the past. They are hard to kill as their bodies are simply suits of armour. Alone, they are nothing but near war they come to life (as well as around sorcerers) and even more so if combined with a sorcerer. Their terminators are the same, their HQs are filled with only sorcerers. There'd need to be Chaos Lords with psyker rules likely minimum 2 and max 3 ML. They'd use machines for war that are individually piloted and would have mutant guard forces as well as other outlandish forces. They would wield tomes of archaic spells that are bewilderng to many controlling the warp with frightening might perhaps even having daemonic familiars that assist in fighting.
As per the latter, there's no real point to diversity if options are basically worthless. It's more it doesn't feel fluffy at all. The 6+ invuln is not only costly but meaningless only slightly okay on units that already have invulns. Yet it doesn't feel Tzeentchian by any means. The icon is simply soulblaze which is worthless. The sorcerers? It actually hurts them by forcing them to roll on the worst psyker table in the game. Simply put, is there some extent of competitive gripes? Yes. Codices that have terrible internal balance do cause problems that way. An army like Eldar are, although imperfect, more capable of theming their armies simply because everything works better. There's not nearly as many *click here to waste points* options. Keep in mind Ksons and Ahriman are actually terrible units with KSons being some of the worst units in the entire game so it's not entirely competitive either. SM do it best with rules that sweet over everything. I just wish it weren't hundreds of points wasted for things that only hurt me to select. That and it also doesn't really create variety for undivided forces. The marks are for the gods but there's really only vet of the long war or being nothing at all. And everybody can pick the vet of the long war.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
Huh? There are rules for sonic weapons... So not sure what you're getting on about with regards to emperors children not being pink and black marines with sonic weapons.
Okay so no sonic war machines. Guess you're just going to have to use any of the other war machines at your disposal. To my knowledge there never was a sonic weapon predator for example, so not sure how that's been taken from you.
You cant have Mutant surfs? What? Chaos cultists don't work here? What would make you satisfied? And did you have it before?
Rubric terminators? How are they any different than regular terminators?
Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.
Not sure what I said about sharing vs diversity but okay.
Here's the thing: jet bikes have models, rules, and representation in the codex, as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades
Answer me this: what did you used to have that you don't anymore that you wish you did, and you can cite as proof for this homogenization?
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line
Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line
Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.
Ignatius wrote: How can you not field a Thousand Sons army? What is missing from the codex that used to be there to make your army?
What do you mean by "no good time to pick the mark of tzeentch?" You mean competitive wise? Because that would seem to validate my final line..
There's only two things that fit a fluffy KSon army in the codex. Thousand Sons and Ahriman. Nothing else is a Kson in the book. A marked terminator is simply a Tzeentchian dedicated renegade CSM that is more recent and has come to support KSons. The last time KSons even worked somewhat well was in 3.5 where the rules were for all models. Even then there were a really bad army but I've stuck by them out of a love for them. Heck, I've gotten to the point I play GK for KSons more often than not simply because it feels more Thousand Sonish. Thing is, Thousand Sons are an odd creature entirely. What are they? The two big things are automitons and Sorcerers. Every unit has a sorcerer leading them as the only living individuals with their psyker powers dramatically enhanced by the rubricate. The rest are suits of dust that are walking ghosts of the past. They are hard to kill as their bodies are simply suits of armour. Alone, they are nothing but near war they come to life (as well as around sorcerers) and even more so if combined with a sorcerer. Their terminators are the same, their HQs are filled with only sorcerers. There'd need to be Chaos Lords with psyker rules likely minimum 2 and max 3 ML. They'd use machines for war that are individually piloted and would have mutant guard forces as well as other outlandish forces. They would wield tomes of archaic spells that are bewilderng to many controlling the warp with frightening might perhaps even having daemonic familiars that assist in fighting.
What did you used to have that allowed for this kind of army that you don't have anymore? How would you change terminators to be more in line with what you are looking for? Why can't you just pretend your terminators are dust? Why can't you use a sorcerer as your "chaos lord with MSL 3? How is that any different besides a little worse in close combat?
As per the latter, there's no real point to diversity if options are basically worthless. It's more it doesn't feel fluffy at all. The 6+ invuln is not only costly but meaningless only slightly okay on units that already have invulns. Yet it doesn't feel Tzeentchian by any means. The icon is simply soulblaze which is worthless. The sorcerers? It actually hurts them by forcing them to roll on the worst psyker table in the game. Simply put, is there some extent of competitive gripes? Yes. Codices that have terrible internal balance do cause problems that way. An army like Eldar are, although imperfect, more capable of theming their armies simply because everything works better. There's not nearly as many *click here to waste points* options. Keep in mind Ksons and Ahriman are actually terrible units with KSons being some of the worst units in the entire game so it's not entirely competitive either. SM do it best with rules that sweet over everything. I just wish it weren't hundreds of points wasted for things that only hurt me to select. That and it also doesn't really create variety for undivided forces. The marks are for the gods but there's really only vet of the long war or being nothing at all. And everybody can pick the vet of the long war.
I won't debate with you about how good thousand sons and Ahriman are. You probably know better than I do, but I just want there to be a distinction between what the op was saying about homogenization and chaos marines just being a bad codex.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line
Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.
What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?
Ignatius wrote: Huh? There are rules for sonic weapons... So not sure what you're getting on about with regards to emperors children not being pink and black marines with sonic weapons.
Okay so no sonic war machines. Guess you're just going to have to use any of the other war machines at your disposal. To my knowledge there never was a sonic weapon predator for example, so not sure how that's been taken from you.
You can have Mutant surfs? What? Chaos cultists don't work here? What you make you satisfied? And did you have it before?
Rubric terminators? How are they any different than regular terminators?
Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.
Not sure what I said about sharing vs diversity but okay.
Here's the thing: jet bikes have models, rules, and representation in the codex, as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades
Answer me this: what did you used to have that you don't anymore that you wish you did, and you can cite as proof for this homogenization?
I mentioned it earlier but I'll elaborate and help explain what the other meant. Thing is, Emperor's children is a twisted group. The mark of slaanesh =/= Emperor's Children. Ruleswise it isn't as you cannot put sonic weapons on slaaneshi marked models nor do you get fearless. Add to that, only Noise Marines can wield the iconic Noise marine weapons. Even if you permitted all to use it, it's still not enough. You need to make the Noise Marine rules universal for all models or at least attainable. Zebio, if he happens to come in would give a better description.
Actually there was a time where sonic weapons were common. 3.5 permitted many units including dreads take sonic weapons
Chaos Cultists are a pitiful interpretation. What are they? They are guardsman with less options and a worse save. They cost the same as guardsman for less (well in some cases cost more) and can only select a shotgun for their champion and either flamers or heavy stubbers. That's all this unit can pick. And you can pay a point to give them an autogun I guess if you give up something else. They aren't the same by any stretch and it's then hammered in that the marks aren't that good. Add to that, mutant surfs are that. Mutants. The things they are are horrors to the mind and even imagination.
Rubric Terminators? What's not different about them? They are walking suits of metal that live only by ancient sorcery. Standard arms are in fluff meaningless only reliably taken down by anti-tank rounds. The sorcerers lead each unit. His personal guard, his personal bodyguards that escorts him across the battlefield. He buffs them to make them stronger and casts dark magic to bewitch and casts devestating magic to harm enemies. The lords? Why they are all mighty. previously great psykers, they have only grown stronger by the rubricate making all of them stronger plus falling to an interest in sorcery. At one point, Tzeentchian sorcerers were even immune to perils to represent their mastery and one would field chaos lords with spells to represent their forces. At best, you can field a Tzeentchian army that is manipulated by Ksons or has some Ksons that support them likely for some rare artefacts.
Sorcerers don't use chaos powers or have stars on them? Why? And since when? And if they bother you that much, why not take an extra ten minutes and shave them off? Or make your own sorcerer? You're getting no pity from me here.
Please elaborate upon this. I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here.
For all the additional options added, many choices were lost. I still miss my Sorcerer lords myself.
Also,
as does chaos and they different possible legions and renegades
makes no sense. There are no rules for the legions and renegades unless you count simply playing SM and proxying them as CSM.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line
Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.
What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?
They do in Codex: Chaos Daemons. If you're implying that they could have had a supplement that basically retied the CSM and CD codicies together with new and different ways to implement summoned daemons under the name of one of the four, then that would have actually worked out. It still wouldn't address the problem, though. In the Chaos Space Marines models range, you have some old cult troops models. That's it. No other models save the FInecast Nurgle Daemon Prince will give you anything beyond the Plastic CSM box.
Thank you Star Trotter. You're the first to actually give me anything to concretely go off of in terms of what used to be there. But as a side note, that post you responded to was to Quarterdime and not you Never the less I'll address it.
I suppose, that after reading your response, that we have a difference in opinion on the matter. Please keep in mind that I'm a chaos player too, and I've been playing chaos since the 3.5 codex as well as a few other armies so I do have a little bit of background on the army. However, my expertise is in Khorne.
Anyways, as for what I can see with regards to rubric terminators vs regular ones is the single difference of psykers in the squad (the champion specifically). All terminators are supposed to be as difficult as you mentioned it is to kill.
The sorcerers now do what you said buffing their terminator bodyguards and killing enemies with spells. No difference between rules and fluff here. Here's where we differ: I believe the sorcerer rules are enough to represent a chaos lord that is psychically gifted if you want. If there were a lord with access to mastery levels I would find either the sorcerer or The Lord redundant.
Why can't cultists represent mutants? Model them as mutants and bam.
I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.
Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.
I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.
Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.
What about the rest of your army? A unit isn't an army.
Perhaps most damning is the fact that some no-name warband is what got the second supplement as well. Granted the supplements really don't mix things up very much.
You need to understand something. Supplements exist to promote new releases and boost any subfaction that can find representation in the model line
Ok. I was saying that on behalf of the four. Red Corsairs would have been perfect.
What are you saying? That the four gods don't have representation? You're kidding fit? They have more representing than the Crimson Slaughter certainly... This was a joke right?
They do in Codex: Chaos Daemons. If you're implying that they could have had a supplement that basically retied the CSM and CD codicies together with new and different ways to implement summoned daemons under the name of one of the four, then that would have actually worked out. It still wouldn't address the problem, though. In the Chaos Space Marines models range, you have some old cult troops models. That's it. No other models save the FInecast Nurgle Daemon Prince will give you anything beyond the Plastic CSM box.
I said absolutely nothing about chaos daemons. This is a thread about chaos marines. What I was saying is that the chaos marine model is represented way more than crimson slaughter. You can call them outdated and old if you want but there are units that are cult troops and look like cult troops. They are there, yet there is nothing for the crimson slaughter. That's what I'm saying. There is nothing there for e crimson slaughter so how can the supplement be made to promote sales of models that don't exist?
I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.
Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.
What about the rest of your army? A unit isn't an army.
The rest of your army is the rest of your army. I don't understand what you want or are looking for. How is each legions predators different? Or land raiders? Or obliterators? Or heldrakes? Or forge fiends, mauler fiends, spawn, bikers, raptors, etc? It's there. Everything is there to use.
What did you used to have that allowed for this kind of army that you don't have anymore? How would you change terminators to be more in line with what you are looking for? Why can't you just pretend your terminators are dust? Why can't you use a sorcerer as your "chaos lord with MSL 3? How is that any different besides a little worse in close combat?
Why not the same for all armies? Why let SM have chapter tactics, why let there be units like Tallarn's model or Farsight or anything that edits the composition of an army? Why have Pask that makes a vehicle driven in radically different, why have the Armoured Battlegroup FW has that makes tanks into troops when you can simply just use 2 chimeras and then fill up with tanks? Why not all of us just play SM and pretend they are different forces? Why not just play IG and pretend they are the lost and the damned? Because they aren't, not by any means.
I can pretend that they aren't, but I can pretend that a leman russ is a land raider if I so choose, I can pretend my mark of nurgle model is actually a Tzeentchian lord. And then I get slapped in the face by something such as Champions of Chaos which makes all of my leaders glory hogs. Why do the purified sorcerers get outlandish mutations? Why is it that Ahriman, the master diviner can't even roll on divination? Why do these things occur
And your question well... because it's not the same. The rules aren't the same. I can accept some restrictions in my guardsman list because spamming some artillery feels like a siege regiment. Bringing heavy weapons in high numbers fits this as well as some siege vehicles. Swap it up, one time lascannons, next time autocannon heavy. Each time they feel different. Tank regiment? Select from several different types of Leman Russes all with their own unique style. For the cherry on top nab yourself a commander of a tank and even Pask. If not satisfied go to FW and get Armoured Battlegroup. When I get my hands on IG, I feel the world expand. Not without its flaws, I'm still upset at many of the losses guardsman got particularly characters that gave certain flares to how you played but it doesnt' feel the same with CSM.
3.5 is a notorious codex you will hear. Both the best and possibly worst codex of all time. On one hand, it was internally flawed in balance on top of 3 very broken builds. Even with other codicees 1 of them reigned supreme. That said, it is considered the best by many as it was the most diverse. It had the most varied forces with legions having their own unique rules. Was it perfect? No, but it is frustrating to see it be yanked out, other factions be handed doctrines, doctrines be yanked out whilst SM and IG get special models that theme their forces before promptly IG lose most of this and SM get even more of it. As per Rubricate Marines, no. They had a sorcerer upgrade and were tanky and chosen were made to be sorcerers with varied options to represent how the higher groups, covens of psykers would react. Add to that, in a unit of 9 champion upgrades were free as it was Tzeentch's holy number. Then couple that with the synergy with daemons as they were still part of the codex and your hqs would nab themselves psyker rules. That's all gone.
Sure, it's not as bad as EC armies that became invalidated in that their weapons didn't work anymore nor is it as bad as the Lost and the Damned that got erased from the game but it's still a rather sour note.
Ignatius wrote: Thank you Star Trotter. You're the first to actually give me anything to concretely go off of in terms of what used to be there. But as a side note, that post you responded to was to Quarterdime and not you Never the less I'll address it.
I suppose, that after reading your response, that we have a difference in opinion on the matter. Please keep in mind that I'm a chaos player too, and I've been playing chaos since the 3.5 codex as well as a few other armies so I do have a little bit of background on the army. However, my expertise is in Khorne.
Anyways, as for what I can see with regards to rubric terminators vs regular ones is the single difference of psykers in the squad (the champion specifically). All terminators are supposed to be as difficult as you mentioned it is to kill.
The sorcerers now do what you said buffing their terminator bodyguards and killing enemies with spells. No difference between rules and fluff here. Here's where we differ: I believe the sorcerer rules are enough to represent a chaos lord that is psychically gifted if you want. If there were a lord with access to mastery levels I would find either the sorcerer or The Lord redundant.
Why can't cultists represent mutants? Model them as mutants and bam.
I see emperors children being sufficiently represented by noise marines. Same with Berzerkers and world eaters. Same with plague marines and death guard. Same with thousand sons and thousand sons. Same with raptors and night lords. Same with daemon engines and iron warriors. Same with cultists and alpha legion. Same with chosen and black legion. Same with cultists and apostles with word bearers.
Everything is there, it's just not jumping straight into your face like space marine tactics are and you just have to be a little creative with how you play your army.
And I'm talking the tank rounds taken to kill Ksons was for standard power armour. How the rules for Ksons worked was that they automatically passed psyker rolles, had 2 wounds (all both terminators and standard units), could only be harmed in CC or with guns S5+, and all were headed by sorcerers. It wasn't the best, my memory is foggy but I believe the army was one of the worse ones really but I loved it. On a quick side note, ah Khorne you say? Well I might by a filthy magician but I hold respect for those that enjoy their axes
The perk of a lord getting mastery levels is more because it fits chaos. There really wasn't a nead for a sorcerer themselves. The most optimal solution would have been having a Lord that could be upgraded to a sorcerer lord with options to have a commanderish equivelent that was a cheaper pick (like the current chaos lord) that you could also upgrade to be a sorcerer at the cost of not being capable of going to ml3. And the sorcerer is 2W, isn't fearless, and so on which makes it fit in even less with the forces. I just don't get why they removed chaos lords being able to use magic. It was one of several ways to make us different than SM yet we ended up just becoming more alike them in many ways.
Also, that's terrible observations, no offense. IW are actually stylized to use things such as basilisks on top of daemon engines. Most importantly, they are known for having tons of elite guardsman that work the sieges whilst they hit the most bloody points. The cultists don't fit alpha legion as alpha legion trained elite forces. Think Veterans really. Cultists and apostles... it just works better if there is synergy with daemons really. And the problem is that these are 1 hit wonder legions then and it only works with 1 named character (2 for Emp's children) and a single troop choice (well elite that can become troops) with little diversity besides that.
Regardless of that, it's been a pleasure debating with you honestly.
@StarTrotter: I'm actually flipping through my 3.5 dex as I've been reading through this thread. There is a lot of awesome awesome stuff in there. Lots of different upgrades and rules that exist no longer sadly. It makes me almost as sad as looking through my 4th edition Imperial Guard codex and all the doctrine goodness.
Yes. There are things that are gone. But should that mean that we all get moody and depressed that it's not there any longer? Should we resign ourselves to cursing GW for their decisions and going on about how we should get everything back? I say-and what I've been arguing here all along- that instead we take up the torch and allow our play styles, backgrounds of our forces, and modeling/painting reflect the type of force we use not some "here one codex gone the next" rules.
But even so, it's not as bad as a lot of people have been saying. Not by a long shot.
In return, you've given me a lot to go off of, which is a lot rarer than it sounds and while my thoughts are different than yours, I'll end by saying that even after everything I've said on this thread, I really do want pretty much everything we've been talking about back. After I get my doctrines for my Imperial Guard back of course
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: I'm actually flipping through my 3.5 dex as I've been reading through this thread. There is a lot of awesome awesome stuff in there. Lots of different upgrades and rules that exist no longer sadly. It makes me almost as sad as looking through my 4th edition Imperial Guard codex and all the doctrine goodness.
Yes. There are things that are gone. But should that mean that we all get moody and depressed that it's not there any longer? Should we resign ourselves to cursing GW for their decisions and going on about how we should get everything back? I say-and what I've been arguing here all along- that instead we take up the torch and allow our play styles, backgrounds of our forces, and modeling/painting reflect the type of force we use not some "here one codex gone the next" rules.
But even so, it's not as bad as a lot of people have been saying. Not by a long shot.
Frankly I'm keeping an eye out for the http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592075.page on proposted rules. It's a fandex working on really fleshing out every segment of chaos from the lost and the damned to renegades to the legions. Not that it's perfect, I doubt anything will. It also helps that my group has basically tossed the rulebook out the door and decided to make our own. It's our enjoyment in the end so things removed such as named characters we drag back in and see if they need to become cheaper and the sorts. And in the end I'm not depressed, admittedly I moved largely on to focus on Chaos Daemons and my IG but that's a different story. CSM is that army that makes me a bit sad that after so much potential, instead of fixing its flaws we kinda threw the baby out with the water and tried to rebuild everything from the ground up yet it came out as far more homogenius and bland with an odd.... melting pot sensation that makes it feel like chaos is rather friendly . Admittedly many of my qualms would be at least settled if the mark of tzeentch wasn't such a bad buy simply because it wouldn't cause my group as much of a headache to fix. We already have Tau, Daemons, Nids, Eldar, and IG to deal with, CSM just makes our lives all the more difficult especially as Tzeentch is just kind of at an odd point currently in CSM's codex. This is admittedly a bit off topic though.
Oh and for all that I say, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. And yes! Doctrines back (or at least some rules would be fun. Some general ones that hint at cadian style, catachan, Mordian, etc would also be pretty cool)
The rest of your army is the rest of your army. I don't understand what you want or are looking for. How is each legions predators different? Or land raiders? Or obliterators? Or heldrakes? Or forge fiends, mauler fiends, spawn, bikers, raptors, etc? It's there. Everything is there to use.
The Death Guard maulerfiends are different because the Death Guard don't have maulerfiends. If they do, then it was given to them as a gift and that still doesn't make it "theirs" in that sense. Just like how the Terminators in the Thousand Sons are different in the way that has already been explained to you. More importantly, the Noise Marine Upgrade Pack doesn't give you any Emperor's Children Iconography. You'd have to buy their metal shoulder pads as well, and even then, I'm not sure if that'd be enough. I'm not that familiar with the Emperor's Children. Maybe a more enlightened brother can let me know if the Emperor's Children even use conventional weaponry anymore.
@StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
The 3.5 codex was unfair for offering too many different options, to the point where the challenges of list building were too alleviated by it being so easy to scale point costs and effectiveness which always gave a high degree of point efficiency. Consider how many rules altering options existed for the basic chaos marine squad before weapon options... Legion, veterans, marks... Isn't that over 200 combination of special rules?
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
It comes more from a fluff standpoint for Nurgle. Now I'll say one thing, Nurgle is not my god. I, as a good little Tzeentchian member have a particular aversion to playing nurgle . That said, Death Guard are well known for being extremely minimal on vehicles. You could theoretically make a tank heavy army but it's always been in concept oriented towards being footslogging slow but tanky units that just nurgle through shots until they get close enough to blast you apart.
That aside, I think that's likely one of the key differences. I myself play only with a group of friends in all honesty which means that I get the lucky capability of tinkering with rules and so on. Tyranids lose their myeotic spore that gave them a unique way to deploy? Hmmm suddenly it still is in the codex *whistles as we cautiously retreat* We are also rather prone to narrative and themed games so that's another part of it not to mention two of us writing our own fluff entirely with others having a short story for the general premise of their forces. Still, it seems we both agree at the end it would be splendid to see the return of legions (and Red Corsairs) as well as the rise of doctrines and the sorts. Their inceptions might have not been perfect but they were great ideas that should have been tweaked and developed rather than being torn out. I guess we can cross our fingers for some supplements that make some serious differences or the next codex
Of course by then we might just be rolling on random tables for everything
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
That's just the thing, the Death Guard probably have extremely few techpriests, let alone warpsmiths. They don't have many vehicles, and it's most likely any techs they do have are used to maintain the essentials, like basic transportation and space travel. That's part of their identity. Just like how Emperor's Children as a legion is shattered into fragments. I'm not sure how big or small these fragments are, or what they're capable of and known to do. Thanks to Fabulous Bill they're all mutants that use sonic weaponry. I know that much. Until someone with knowledge about them helps me out as to their specific identity I guess I'll be reading their Lexicanum page.
aka_mythos wrote: The 3.5 codex was unfair for offering too many different options, to the point where the challenges of list building were too alleviated by it being so easy to scale point costs and effectiveness which always gave a high degree of point efficiency. Consider how many rules altering options existed for the basic chaos marine squad before weapon options... Legion, veterans, marks... Isn't that over 200 combination of special rules?
Oh don't get me wrong, there's a reason I called the 3.5 codex both the best and worst CSM codex yet . It had the most life with so many different choices, mutations that were fascinating, legion tactics, warband themes. There was so much to it, so many choices, so much customization.... That said, it was an internal nightmare that was terribly imbalanced both internally and externally with some really really bad options and some crazy this is OTT broken builds. Not quite the level of things in this edition but pretty close for their time. It's really the sad catch of CSM though. Simply put, it's going to be cluttered if you try to represent things. It's legions that are some outlandish and radically different forces (KSons really are different than CSM and so on), a hint of Lost and the Damned with Cultists, and the renegades that are more recently fallen to chaos. Add to that, 3.5 had chaos daemons which was both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it felt more fitting for the force and allowed for additional synergy. On the other hand, it made things more cluttered again.
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
That's just the thing, the Death Guard probably have extremely few techpriests, let alone warpsmiths. They don't have many vehicles, and it's most likely any techs they do have are used to maintain the essentials, like basic transportation and space travel. That's part of their identity. Just like how Emperor's Children as a legion is shattered into fragments. I'm not sure how big or small these fragments are, or what they're capable of and known to do. Thanks to Fabulous Bill they're all mutants that use sonic weaponry. I know that much. Until someone with knowledge about them helps me out as to their specific identity I guess I'll be reading their Lexicanum page.
Again, trying to stick to generalizations, I just gave the nurgle mauler fiend thing as an example. If your nurgle (not speaking directly at you mind) interpretation is that they don't have many vehicles, just don't bring them. Perfect. Just like Khorne can't use psykers, don't have your nurgle army use vehicles. Just because one is rule based and the other is fluff based, does it make either of them less true? Or less necessary to be followed? I'd argue no.
But I'm serious when I ask if you're more concerned about the rules side, the fluff side, or the model side in regards to the homogenization? Because that would let me construct an argument that will actually help carry the thread onwards.
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
That's just the thing, the Death Guard probably have extremely few techpriests, let alone warpsmiths. They don't have many vehicles, and it's most likely any techs they do have are used to maintain the essentials, like basic transportation and space travel. That's part of their identity. Just like how Emperor's Children as a legion is shattered into fragments. I'm not sure how big or small these fragments are, or what they're capable of and known to do. Thanks to Fabulous Bill they're all mutants that use sonic weaponry. I know that much. Until someone with knowledge about them helps me out as to their specific identity I guess I'll be reading their Lexicanum page.
Again, trying to stick to generalizations, I just gave the nurgle mauler fiend thing as an example. If your nurgle (not speaking directly at you mind) interpretation is that they don't have many vehicles, just don't bring them. Perfect. Just like Khorne can't use psykers, don't have your nurgle army use vehicles. Just because one is rule based and the other is fluff based, does it make either of them less true? Or less necessary to be followed? I'd argue no.
But I'm serious when I ask if you're more concerned about the rules side, the fluff side, or the model side in regards to the homogenization? Because that would let me construct an argument that will actually help carry the thread onwards.
I'm concerned about the models, actually. Fluff comes second. There's no god-themed units beyond the cult troops and nurgle daemon prince. Instead of creating 4 distinct, god-themed units, they release 4 generic units that you can paint differently.
I think there is something to the idea that chaos is homogenizing. I think this stems from how the fundamental flavor of the army is allowed to vary... We select our lords affiliation and that dictates a troop choice and that's really it. SM atleast get chapter wide special rules that further effect how particular units are used. Typhos' plague zombies are the closest thing. At the same time the big 4 that can be troops while they play different are by GWs attempt to be relatively equal... The fact that they're already available to the army regardless of that choice creates this situation where the only thing that varies our army is something that can appear in any version of our army without that thematic commitment.
I think it'd have worked far better if not only did we end up with the troop option but if it also imparted rules on some other unit making them elites... Or where the version of the unit taken as a troop got some other bonus.
Ignatius wrote: @StarTrotter: And fine debating with you sir! I'm starting to see perhaps where we differed initially- I like to play around at a couple different stores, so making due has sort of been put into my war gaming blood I never had the luxury of changing rules, so I can see where your opinion comes from.
@Quarterdime: we are in the same boat, as I said earlier I don't know much besides Khorne and I apologize for that. But I've been trying to stick to general concepts rather than specific examples like sonic weapons. But surely a death guard warp smith has the know how to create a forge fiend yes? They had to come from somewhere.
Just so I can get a better understanding, you are more upset about models and looks than you are about anything else in the codex correct? Or am I just making a fool of myself?
That's just the thing, the Death Guard probably have extremely few techpriests, let alone warpsmiths. They don't have many vehicles, and it's most likely any techs they do have are used to maintain the essentials, like basic transportation and space travel. That's part of their identity. Just like how Emperor's Children as a legion is shattered into fragments. I'm not sure how big or small these fragments are, or what they're capable of and known to do. Thanks to Fabulous Bill they're all mutants that use sonic weaponry. I know that much. Until someone with knowledge about them helps me out as to their specific identity I guess I'll be reading their Lexicanum page.
Again, trying to stick to generalizations, I just gave the nurgle mauler fiend thing as an example. If your nurgle (not speaking directly at you mind) interpretation is that they don't have many vehicles, just don't bring them. Perfect. Just like Khorne can't use psykers, don't have your nurgle army use vehicles. Just because one is rule based and the other is fluff based, does it make either of them less true? Or less necessary to be followed? I'd argue no.
But I'm serious when I ask if you're more concerned about the rules side, the fluff side, or the model side in regards to the homogenization? Because that would let me construct an argument that will actually help carry the thread onwards.
Rules, and fluff for myself. Here's what I posted before on why I don't think the current CSM codex represents Emperor's Children. Many of these were options back in 3.5, with a few being wishlisted.
Can I take Combat Drugs to increase the Effectiveness of my Drug Addled Warriors?
Can I take A Chaos Sorcerer Lord kitted to the teeth in Slaaneshi Artifacts and blessed with Slaanesh's gifts?
Will my possessed be able to take rending talons and be blessed with super-natural speed or flight without acting as if they were possessed by every single daemon at once. They are possessed by Daemonettes, not plaguebearers.
Will my elite chosen be blessed with gifts of slaanesh? Or maybe perhaps be gifted warriors skilled in weapon and blade? Or maybe even riding upon steeds of Slaanesh as having proven themselves worthy of riding with the Chaos Lord
Can my Helbrute's be equipped with Blastmasters? Or perhaps their screams can be amplified by Doom Sirens?
Will my Vehicles be upgraded with Sonic Weaponry? Or maybe perhaps equipped in a manner that will allow those who desire to take themselves in the melee to charge out on an assault ramp?
I'd like to pose this... We're stuck with this codex for the foreseeable future... I think GW has avenues to fix this in the form of dataslates, supplements, and FW unit additions. Would you guy accept such "fixes"... Is having a formation like dataslate that takes away some flexibility but provides thematic rewards enough, even if only to meet the bare minimum of expectations?
aka_mythos wrote: I'd like to pose this... We're stuck with this codex for the foreseeable future... I think GW has avenues to fix this in the form of dataslates, supplements, and FW unit additions. Would you guy accept such "fixes"... Is having a formation like dataslate that takes away some flexibility but provides thematic rewards enough, even if only to meet the bare minimum of expectations?
In the same sense that a $15 resin conversion kit for a few plastic chaos space marine models is enough.
The current Chaos Space Marine codex is certainly a step up from the abysmal 5th edition codex, but is still not as good as 3.5. Whilst I do like the look of the new models, I still cannot help but feel that the Chaos Marine range is still lacking; I was really hoping that GW would release multi-part cult troops, similar to what they did to C:SM sternguard/vanguard set, I would love multi-part plastic plague marines. They also need to change the look of the basic Chaos Marines so they are more in line with the Chosen from the Dark Vengeance set.
What ever happened to all of the Pre-Heresy gear that the traitors had? Didn't Horus re-direct a lot of the state of the art weaponry and armour to the traitor legions? I'm guessing they left all of that and the legion specific units behind when they fled into the eye of terror.
GW's model support for CSM has always been abysmal... Even the basic chaos marines were admittedly spike and arrows sculpted atop the SM tactical squad pieces and it took how many tries to get decent enough possessed. The best model support GWs given chaos marines is the starter box. Make every chaos marine to that quality and the only complaints would be the the lack of flavor in the rules.
I tend to think the next time around we'll see the big 4 cults get redone, just because they were largely hybrid kits of the type that are getting phased out. If and when that happens it'll probably make mono-god players happy as GW will make their hard push to sell new kits.
I'm a pretty good modder, so the distinctness of the models isn't really a problem I have to overcome, I was just hoping for a bit of diversity for the legions rules...
I play EC, and the fluff said the 3rd legion was trained and had access to every vehicle and weapon in the SM inventories, 7th lets me take the vehicles, but I still can't use them...and it would be nice to be able to play my EC helbrutes with their noise weapons...
Then what does GW do? They release a CSM book based on the black legion, which the main codex is already based on...?!?
Ugh
Automatically Appended Next Post: They easily could have done:
Alpha Legion: (limitless: treat cultists as an endless swarm)
Word Bearers: (all-out: may add +3" to charge distance, but must take dangerous terrain checks for each model)
Tsons: (soul harvest: add 1 die to your psycher pool next turn for each model in power armor or terminator armor that dies)
Etc
Kyutaru wrote: Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.
This. Every CSM player has been hoping for each subsequent CSM codex since 3.5 to live up to it - and has been disappointed every time.
And then when you guys had 3.5 it sucked and you wanted something better!
Kyutaru wrote: Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.
This. Every CSM player has been hoping for each subsequent CSM codex since 3.5 to live up to it - and has been disappointed every time.
And then when you guys had 3.5 it sucked and you wanted something better!
Rose-tinted glasses.
No. 3.5 wasn't the be all end all but no one I knew or anyone on any forum I've seen complained about 3.5.
Kyutaru wrote: Or we can just have a single codex. We had a single codex in 3.5 edition that included the legions, the gods, the daemons, and it was still only half the size of the current one. With more customization and abilities too.
This. Every CSM player has been hoping for each subsequent CSM codex since 3.5 to live up to it - and has been disappointed every time.
And then when you guys had 3.5 it sucked and you wanted something better!
Rose-tinted glasses.
No. 3.5 wasn't the be all end all but no one I knew or anyone on any forum I've seen complained about 3.5.
If they did, it was about Iron Warriors' balance, Not at all what we're talking about here Melissia. We're talking about the fluff and flavor of the dex, how it captured the feel and style of playing a Chaos Marine army that rebelled with Horus against their brothers and have sense fallen into degradation. (As opposed to a generic "warband" with dino bots.)
aka_mythos wrote: Agreed. The only complaints I remember from them was about the minis not the book or rules... In particular... They still haven't redone Abbadon.
These were my favorites. You have a very well done figure of Fabius......but then look at his "super marine bodyguard guys."
They're just awful. It's like they're not even from the same game system.
I am genuinely curious as to why people have these wierd beliefs that certain legions don't have certain things in them. Or that the marks and icons somehow suddenly don't make an army the world eaters?
Why do you all of a sudden think death guard have very few vehicles?
To me it is sounding like some of you have this pre concieved notion of what a specific legion is like and because the normal Chaos Space Marine codex doesn't fit your own personal vision of what you think the legions are like, that somehow the CSM codex isn't good enough.
Seriously folks?
Those saying the death guard have very few vehicles, how do you know? Do you even realize that over the years, nurgle infested space marine tanks were some of the most iconic death guard models in the game? The most famous one is a second edition predator that looks like it has a greater daemon of nurgle possessing it. If i remember correctly it even won a golden daemon painting competition.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
You are right, but I never said that it did. What I did say was that many CSM players have a pre concieved notion of what the legions are like and for many reasons they don't think that the CSM book fits their notion. But some peoples notions are wrong. And some people have no idea what the legions were like. And some of the things that have been listed or complained about when it comes to CSM's as presented in the current book are
actually very legion fluffy. "Dino bots"for instance. There was a time when legions of khorne wouldn't be caught dead going to war withoutat least three daemon engines to back them up. Now, they are in the codex. Thats fluffy. But listening to some of the people on here complain about them and how unfluffy they are just gets irritating after a while.
The problem isn't the codex, the problem is people not really having a clue as to what the legions were really like, so they come up with stuff in their own head that the book can't possibly replicate. Because if it tried to replicate one legion, it wouldn't be very good at replicating the others due to way too many options.
I don't think the Night Lords use possessed or cult troops. That makes sense to me. This issue has been discussed before, and I've gone up against the wall with people who say "Nothing's stopping them!" So what? That's who they are. They don't worship or trust chaos. So you want to play the special snowflake Night Lords that use daemonic units. I think the truth of the matter is that nothing's stopping you, either. And that's what it's all about. In 40k you can have anything do anything no matter how dull and uninspired it makes you. That's your prerogative. But I'm the kind of guy who actually wants to imitate an identity as opposed to violate it. Just understand that these identities exist for a reason.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
You are right, but I never said that it did. What I did say was that many CSM players have a pre concieved notion of what the legions are like and for many reasons they don't think that the CSM book fits their notion. But some peoples notions are wrong. And some people have no idea what the legions were like. And some of the things that have been listed or complained about when it comes to CSM's as presented in the current book are
actually very legion fluffy. "Dino bots"for instance. There was a time when legions of khorne wouldn't be caught dead going to war withoutat least three daemon engines to back them up. Now, they are in the codex. Thats fluffy. But listening to some of the people on here complain about them and how unfluffy they are just gets irritating after a while.
The problem isn't the codex, the problem is people not really having a clue as to what the legions were really like, so they come up with stuff in their own head that the book can't possibly replicate. Because if it tried to replicate one legion, it wouldn't be very good at replicating the others due to way too many options.
I did post about my Emperor's children, if you'd like to take a look and refute it. I know of the other legions but I know mostly of what I play.
Also the Dinobots are daemon engines, it's just they don't look really that good, and even silly by older daemon engine standards back around epic and the like.
While I don't think the daemon engines are perfect, I think they were a move in the right direction. When you do daemon engines in the old style you get the Khorne law mower superheavy we have. The newest daemon engines are daemon engines in the vein of the Khorne Juggernaut and even though they are lacking in some ways they add to the army a much needed visual distinction that distinguishes them from a distance.
aka_mythos wrote: Agreed. The only complaints I remember from them was about the minis not the book or rules... In particular... They still haven't redone Abbadon.
These were my favorites. You have a very well done figure of Fabius......but then look at his "super marine bodyguard guys."
They're just awful. It's like they're not even from the same game system.
Hey, I play a Fabius army and have a squad of 10... It's on my todo list to make it a full squad. Maybe I'm weird but I miss the Doom Rider.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
You are right, but I never said that it did. What I did say was that many CSM players have a pre concieved notion of what the legions are like and for many reasons they don't think that the CSM book fits their notion. But some peoples notions are wrong. And some people have no idea what the legions were like. And some of the things that have been listed or complained about when it comes to CSM's as presented in the current book are
actually very legion fluffy. "Dino bots"for instanc
e. There was a time when legions of khorne wouldn't be caught dead going to war withoutat least three daemon engines to back them up. Now, they are in the codex. Thats fluffy. But listening to some of the people on here complain about them and how unfluffy they are just gets irritating after a while.
The problem isn't the codex, the problem is people not really having a clue as to what the legions were really like, so they come up with stuff in their own head that the book can't possibly replicate. Because if it tried to replicate one legion, it wouldn't be very good at replicating the others due to way too many options.
I did post about my Emperor's children, if you'd like to take a look and refute it. I know of the other legions but I know mostly of what I play.
Also the Dinobots are daemon engines, it's just they don't look really that good, and even silly by older daemon engine standards back around epic and the like.
So before i begin, let me ask you, do you believe your squads should be as you have listed them due to being fluffy? Or is it more based on power of the army. At first glance it seems a power thing to me but maybe you have some fluff somewhere to back these sort of things up that I don't know of?
I'm just going to say I'd just like to take things that feel fluffy. Thousand Sons and Ahriman aren't Thousand Sons. Some way to make some nameless character it, ways to take terminators as rubricate, some way to have chosen as a squad of sorcerers. To kit out my forces with rewards of Tzeentch, to roll on divination for the army that belongs to Tzeentch. We are the legion of ghosts led by the damned. Prospero is burned, the Planet of Sorcerers is what little we have of home. All that we have is dust. From Knowledge is Power we reached for the flame and it burnt us. Forever are we scarred yet we grew stronger for it, mastering the ways of the flame and wielding it. We search for archane knowledge, to grow stronger, to fix errors, to learn.
So before i begin, let me ask you, do you believe your squads should be as you have listed them due to being fluffy? Or is it more based on power of the army. At first glance it seems a power thing to me but maybe you have some fluff somewhere to back these sort of things up that I don't know of?
Power? I suppose I do enjoy a bit of power and would honestly prefer something that isn't below par, In all honesty having a bit of balance is far better then most things, but we don't have power or fluff behind much things so yeah... (Poor Tsons, I would never say Slaanesh gets less then them)
But I believe in fluff, unique wargear, differentiated armies even within the same codex. I want unique fluffy options for everyone! But as I don't play everyone I generally concentrate on the fluff I know and love.
As for my list and the fluff options I presented before
Emperor's Children do alot of drugs, pleasure drugs, booster drugs, drugs made from ground up people, much of which screws with their bodies but much of it enhances them in horrific ways, having a random 'combat drugs' table would be fine as a buyable option.
Slaaneshi Gifts and Mutations are fluff based things, chaos is random but it oddly enough isn't THAT random as the current mutation table, but really the lack of Optional daemon weapons outside of Khorne is shocking, and both Nurgle and Slaanesh didn't gain any unique artifacts of their own, this should be a common thing to ALL chaos, and Chaos Lords aren't Captains of Chaos, they can and will be psykers, sometimes naturally, and sometimes by gifts from their god. Sorcerers are not always second fiddle, but often are just as martially skilled as many Chaos Lords (Thus the Chaos SORCERER Lords)
Possessed having mutations they can buy instead of random rolling should be the NORM, if I want them to have wings they should have flight, if I give them claws they should have rending, or heck if thats too much maybe when you mark them they become Daemons of X and gain specific bonuses rather then a normal mark, they are people who have managed to take a Daemons and remain in control of themselves.
Chosen should gain something, as it is they are just somewhat sub-par elites (much like DA's veterans, who also need some uniqueness), they don't represent much in the way of anything, being able to have your Chaos Lord in a unit with mounts would be cool and fluffy, having chosen blessed with Gifts of Slaanesh would be fluffy and cool, Chosen are supposed to be the Elite Guard, the one's that used to be Chaos Lord Retinue's much like honor guard, as it is they are just subpar shooting units for most armies, being able to change them into elite blade units (Representing the Slaaneshi perfectionists who take their skills in melee far beyond any normal 'Plebeian' and would try to challenge instead of their chaos lord would be common.)
Helbrutes and Vehicles equipped with 'marks' and weapons of the Emperor's children, doesn't need much explanation beyond that, same for any elite unit, also assault ramps would be nice considering many Emperor's Children Bands usually raid rather then destroy, usually to gain more slaves for their various 'Pleasures'
Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
Now as far as them riding on steeds of slaanesh, again, this steps upon the toes of another codex..
Chaos Daemons so it is not very likely that gw would have ever done this.
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
I like all the big 4 cult stuff, but I'm probably in the minority for thinking the codex should be focused on undivided as it is, and that the pure big 4 cults should each be relegated to supplements. I've played pure Khorne, pure Nurgle, and pure Slaanesh... now I play undivided because it's allowed me to create my own backstory in a way mono-god tend to constrain. Once you start demanding mono-god armies get more attention there is a lot of redundancy that is insisted on. When that is compartmentalized into a supplement it allieviates the redundancy and allows room for diversity. I'd like to see more attention given to the generally undivided cults, like raptors and Obliterators. You think an EC dread would be cool how about an Obliterator dread?
GW's unwillingness to support the old Legions pushed me away from playing Chaos. I don't think I'm the only one. It may be an insignificant number, but I do hear a lot of clamor for them and with next year's finances not looking too hot, you'd think GW would jump on something that would make them money.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Except for the fact that many of the Warp based drugs while they don't do much for their senses, they still can create effects for the body such as physical strength or various things, as for the DE thing it's kinda moot considering that it's not a main thing for DE, just a side thing for their wych cult.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
This is reaaaallllly stretching it, there has always been undivided weapons within lore, Each of those are undivided simply enough, or unaffiliated, and Tzeentchs artifact is the Scrolls of Magnus, with the burning brand having been used by Kharn and rumors about its power.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
I'll give you this one, though I would love to see marks make it so that get either god specific tables, or a higher chance at other things (Or just remove some of the most useless ones like +1BS, I'd love to have the old cloven hooves make my champion cavalry
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
You mean besides the fact they for some reason switch and change at complete random? This seems more like they've been possessed by a Tzeentch Horror rather then something more constant like a Daemonette.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
I'll be honest this is somewhat of a power issue for me, a power sword is horrifically costed for them as a buyable option, but yet the SM get Honour guard that are far cheaper, come with 2+ and with +2S weapons, and with the FNP it's even more so, but I'll be honest and say i would love for them to be more akin to a Palatine Blade Squad, with WS5 and Power Swords, while being far more inexpensive and being able to fight instead of the Chaos Lord
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
You mean besides the fact that the Occupants of the vehicle are going to be listening in too? Not to mention the Daemon Engines who would love to feel the sensation, and for note the Slaanesh Subjuguator Daemon Engine used them also in melee combat at close range to prevent things from fighting back. There's every fluff reason for this, including the fact that many of them can be hooked up so the sounds come inside, not to mention the devices to make it so that the occupants can hear the screams from the battlefield as if they were actually there.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
Because it's fluffy to basically have a land raider army rather then a raiding force equipped to take slaves.
There's also all the new sonic weapons that FFG have been coming out with, I'd love some of those sonic sniper guns and pistols, course then I'd really just want everything from the Tome of Excess.
Vaktathi wrote: Plenty of people care, this has been a gigantic bugbear of the community for 7 years now. Players have screamed and moaned about it from the tail end of 4th edition, through 5th and 6th editions and now into 7th.
GW doesn't care. There are plenty of other people that care.
They could fix it if they wanted to. Very easily in fact. But they don't, so they haven't.
So what then should we as players do about this?
Me personally, I try and buy used as much as possible.
On a side note, I happen to like the look of the Plague Marines and I love the Noise Marines.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Except for the fact that many of the Warp based drugs while they don't do much for their senses, they still can create effects for the body such as physical strength or various things, as for the DE thing it's kinda moot considering that it's not a main thing for DE, just a side thing for their wych cult.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
This is reaaaallllly stretching it, there has always been undivided weapons within lore, Each of those are undivided simply enough, or unaffiliated, and Tzeentchs artifact is the Scrolls of Magnus, with the burning brand having been used by Kharn and rumors about its power.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
I'll give you this one, though I would love to see marks make it so that get either god specific tables, or a higher chance at other things (Or just remove some of the most useless ones like +1BS, I'd love to have the old cloven hooves make my champion cavalry
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
You mean besides the fact they for some reason switch and change at complete random? This seems more like they've been possessed by a Tzeentch Horror rather then something more constant like a Daemonette.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
I'll be honest this is somewhat of a power issue for me, a power sword is horrifically costed for them as a buyable option, but yet the SM get Honour guard that are far cheaper, come with 2+ and with +2S weapons, and with the FNP it's even more so, but I'll be honest and say i would love for them to be more akin to a Palatine Blade Squad, with WS5 and Power Swords, while being far more inexpensive and being able to fight instead of the Chaos Lord
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
You mean besides the fact that the Occupants of the vehicle are going to be listening in too? Not to mention the Daemon Engines who would love to feel the sensation, and for note the Slaanesh Subjuguator Daemon Engine used them also in melee combat at close range to prevent things from fighting back. There's every fluff reason for this, including the fact that many of them can be hooked up so the sounds come inside, not to mention the devices to make it so that the occupants can hear the screams from the battlefield as if they were actually there.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
Because it's fluffy to basically have a land raider army rather then a raiding force equipped to take slaves.
There's also all the new sonic weapons that FFG have been coming out with, I'd love some of those sonic sniper guns and pistols, course then I'd really just want everything from the Tome of Excess.
you can say I'm stretching it all you want but you would be wrong. Those weapons are exactly what I described them as. Belonging to specific dieties. why do you think the murder sword is a sword and not a mace or a power fist or a lightning claw? because, hello, elite SWORDSMEN!
And the combat drugs thing is for more than wytch cults. The characters can take them as well. They even have a special character that deals them.
I don't see the possessed as being from different daemons, to me the way they act is more like the original host taking over and then the daemon re asserting his control so the change to his abilities occurs.
Now that link you made of the slaanesh and Khorne riders from Fantasy, exactly which 40k codex are they stepping on?
Now, the blastmasters as I already said, were made for the wielder. It is irrelevant and not at all in line with the fluff that you think they should be on vehicles. that has never been their thing. They do nothing for a vehicle or its riders. To get the best sound from it you need to be as close as possible and that means holding on to it. Any farther away than that, such as having it strapped to a vehicle and you listening to it while inside the vehicle isn't extreme enough. And the daemons don't care about the sound it makes. That's for the Chaos marines, not the daemon engines or anyone else.
And who says you can't take prisoners in Land Raiders? What better way to protect your spoils of War from wandering bands of Khornate worshippers trying to steal them from you and add their skulls to Khorne's pile o' skulls?
See, you CAN make a fluffy legion list out of the codex. I have proven my point.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Except for the fact that many of the Warp based drugs while they don't do much for their senses, they still can create effects for the body such as physical strength or various things, as for the DE thing it's kinda moot considering that it's not a main thing for DE, just a side thing for their wych cult.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
This is reaaaallllly stretching it, there has always been undivided weapons within lore, Each of those are undivided simply enough, or unaffiliated, and Tzeentchs artifact is the Scrolls of Magnus, with the burning brand having been used by Kharn and rumors about its power.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
I'll give you this one, though I would love to see marks make it so that get either god specific tables, or a higher chance at other things (Or just remove some of the most useless ones like +1BS, I'd love to have the old cloven hooves make my champion cavalry
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
You mean besides the fact they for some reason switch and change at complete random? This seems more like they've been possessed by a Tzeentch Horror rather then something more constant like a Daemonette.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
I'll be honest this is somewhat of a power issue for me, a power sword is horrifically costed for them as a buyable option, but yet the SM get Honour guard that are far cheaper, come with 2+ and with +2S weapons, and with the FNP it's even more so, but I'll be honest and say i would love for them to be more akin to a Palatine Blade Squad, with WS5 and Power Swords, while being far more inexpensive and being able to fight instead of the Chaos Lord
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
You mean besides the fact that the Occupants of the vehicle are going to be listening in too? Not to mention the Daemon Engines who would love to feel the sensation, and for note the Slaanesh Subjuguator Daemon Engine used them also in melee combat at close range to prevent things from fighting back. There's every fluff reason for this, including the fact that many of them can be hooked up so the sounds come inside, not to mention the devices to make it so that the occupants can hear the screams from the battlefield as if they were actually there.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
Because it's fluffy to basically have a land raider army rather then a raiding force equipped to take slaves.
There's also all the new sonic weapons that FFG have been coming out with, I'd love some of those sonic sniper guns and pistols, course then I'd really just want everything from the Tome of Excess.
you can say I'm stretching it all you want but you would be wrong. Those weapons are exactly what I described them as. Belonging to specific dieties. why do you think the murder sword is a sword and not a mace or a power fist or a lightning claw? because, hello, elite SWORDSMEN!
And the combat drugs thing is for more than wytch cults. The characters can take them as well. They even have a special character that deals them.
I don't see the possessed as being from different daemons, to me the way they act is more like the original host taking over and then the daemon re asserting his control so the change to his abilities occurs.
Now that link you made of the slaanesh and Khorne riders from Fantasy, exactly which 40k codex are they stepping on?
Now, the blastmasters as I already said, were made for the wielder. It is irrelevant and not at all in line with the fluff that you think they should be on vehicles. that has never been their thing. They do nothing for a vehicle or its riders. To get the best sound from it you need to be as close as possible and that means holding on to it. Any farther away than that, such as having it strapped to a vehicle and you listening to it while inside the vehicle isn't extreme enough. And the daemons don't care about the sound it makes. That's for the Chaos marines, not the daemon engines or anyone else.
And who says you can't take prisoners in Land Raiders? What better way to protect your spoils of War from wandering bands of Khornate worshippers trying to steal them from you and add their skulls to Khorne's pile o' skulls?
See, you CAN make a fluffy legion list out of the codex. I have proven my point.
Actually you didn't. I find it insulting you would claim that he's stretching things despite you going out of your way to stretch everything. Look at what you had to do for every segment, stretch things to fit what was needed. Yes, the murder sword feels a bit Slaaneshi... but the Black Mace? How does it really feel nurgly? There's no real indication of it rotting or well anything. The burning brand is very much not for sure Skal either. The bloody fluff debates between Tzeentch or Khorne. And also you can't kit many units out. It's basically one guy that gets it and so can every undivided individual.
And so why is it that Slaaneshi Marines (especially noise marines) can't use drugs? You said it yourself. "Can't use drugs because done too much." And DE abuse drugs to no end as well yet they still get perks don't they?
And how is it swapping? They literally change their capabilities from becoming tankier (a bit of nurgle and tzeentch) to shreddy (slaanesh) to other things. It's not precise, it's like several daemons vying for one body.
You mean chaos daemons? The codex that was originally in CSM? Or need I remind you that Chaos Daemons are also a Fantasy codex and they have no problem there do they?
Actually no, it still fits. The fluff has blastmasters and the sorts. In 3.5 you could put them on your dreadnoughts, there's still the blasters that make you not capable of overwatching on vehicles as well. So no.
And why not add an assault ramp on rhinos? It fits perfectly with Khorne and Slaanesh. Or open topped as well. And you can go on and on about Land Raiders but a Land Raider doesn't really show a swift raider force.
See you CAN'T make a fluffy legion list. You haven't proven your point . Also, what of me? How can I make a Thousand Son list?
Now that link you made of the slaanesh and Khorne riders from Fantasy, exactly which 40k codex are they stepping on?
You mean besides the fact that Warriors of Chaos are taking from Daemons of Chaos? Same exact situation as your point was.
you can say I'm stretching it all you want but you would be wrong. Those weapons are exactly what I described them as. Belonging to specific dieties. why do you think the murder sword is a sword and not a mace or a power fist or a lightning claw? because, hello, elite SWORDSMEN!
Wow, if you honestly cannot tell how you are stretching it then nothing I could say could easily persuade you, considering that Swords are an oft imbued item for daemon weapons (Including say Abbadons)
And the combat drugs thing is for more than wytch cults. The characters can take them as well. They even have a special character that deals them.
Yes? And? I don't really care, I mean we have SM armories being similar across the galaxy, a bit of space drugs that do different things wouldn't be shocking.
I don't see the possessed as being from different daemons, to me the way they act is more like the original host taking over and then the daemon re asserting his control so the change to his abilities occurs.
That's not how it works and you know it, the Daemonette would force the flesh into something more to their liking, rather then something Tzeentchian random every turn.
It is irrelevant and not at all in line with the fluff that you think they should be on vehicles.
Which they used to able to equipped on.
To get the best sound from it you need to be as close as possible and that means holding on to it. Any farther away than that, such as having it strapped to a vehicle and you listening to it while inside the vehicle isn't extreme enough.
Yet they still have Warp Amps on them, not to mention the various Slaaneshi weaponry that's been done often enough, there is no real indication that this is the case, considering the various systems that can be hooked up to things. Stretching it further there.
And who says you can't take prisoners in Land Raiders? What better way to protect your spoils of War from wandering bands of Khornate worshippers trying to steal them from you and add their skulls to Khorne's pile o' skulls?
And if your trying to make a quick raid, the slow speed of the land raiders aren't exactly going to be speeding up and helping them grab what they can before imperial forces show up.
See, you CAN make a fluffy legion list out of the codex. I have proven my point.
Not at all really, you've stretched and made up some fluff on your own, that's good and all, but you've only tried to prove that CSM can't have anything cause it cribs off another, that certain things can be done, that you really don't understand possessed,daemon weapons, or sonic weaponry, not to mention the elites on foot without blastmaster such as terminators or being able to equip the lord with such weaponry are still missing
Try again though, this has been a rather interesting conversation.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Except for the fact that many of the Warp based drugs while they don't do much for their senses, they still can create effects for the body such as physical strength or various things, as for the DE thing it's kinda moot considering that it's not a main thing for DE, just a side thing for their wych cult.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
This is reaaaallllly stretching it, there has always been undivided weapons within lore, Each of those are undivided simply enough, or unaffiliated, and Tzeentchs artifact is the Scrolls of Magnus, with the burning brand having been used by Kharn and rumors about its power.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
I'll give you this one, though I would love to see marks make it so that get either god specific tables, or a higher chance at other things (Or just remove some of the most useless ones like +1BS, I'd love to have the old cloven hooves make my champion cavalry
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
You mean besides the fact they for some reason switch and change at complete random? This seems more like they've been possessed by a Tzeentch Horror rather then something more constant like a Daemonette.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
I'll be honest this is somewhat of a power issue for me, a power sword is horrifically costed for them as a buyable option, but yet the SM get Honour guard that are far cheaper, come with 2+ and with +2S weapons, and with the FNP it's even more so, but I'll be honest and say i would love for them to be more akin to a Palatine Blade Squad, with WS5 and Power Swords, while being far more inexpensive and being able to fight instead of the Chaos Lord
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
You mean besides the fact that the Occupants of the vehicle are going to be listening in too? Not to mention the Daemon Engines who would love to feel the sensation, and for note the Slaanesh Subjuguator Daemon Engine used them also in melee combat at close range to prevent things from fighting back. There's every fluff reason for this, including the fact that many of them can be hooked up so the sounds come inside, not to mention the devices to make it so that the occupants can hear the screams from the battlefield as if they were actually there.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
Because it's fluffy to basically have a land raider army rather then a raiding force equipped to take slaves.
There's also all the new sonic weapons that FFG have been coming out with, I'd love some of those sonic sniper guns and pistols, course then I'd really just want everything from the Tome of Excess.
you can say I'm stretching it all you want but you would be wrong. Those weapons are exactly what I described them as. Belonging to specific dieties. why do you think the murder sword is a sword and not a mace or a power fist or a lightning claw? because, hello, elite SWORDSMEN!
And the combat drugs thing is for more than wytch cults. The characters can take them as well. They even have a special character that deals them.
I don't see the possessed as being from different daemons, to me the way they act is more like the original host taking over and then the daemon re asserting his control so the change to his abilities occurs.
Now that link you made of the slaanesh and Khorne riders from Fantasy, exactly which 40k codex are they stepping on?
Now, the blastmasters as I already said, were made for the wielder. It is irrelevant and not at all in line with the fluff that you think they should be on vehicles. that has never been their thing. They do nothing for a vehicle or its riders. To get the best sound from it you need to be as close as possible and that means holding on to it. Any farther away than that, such as having it strapped to a vehicle and you listening to it while inside the vehicle isn't extreme enough. And the daemons don't care about the sound it makes. That's for the Chaos marines, not the daemon engines or anyone else.
And who says you can't take prisoners in Land Raiders? What better way to protect your spoils of War from wandering bands of Khornate worshippers trying to steal them from you and add their skulls to Khorne's pile o' skulls?
See, you CAN make a fluffy legion list out of the codex. I have proven my point.
Actually you didn't. I find it insulting you would claim that he's stretching things despite you going out of your way to stretch everything. Look at what you had to do for every segment, stretch things to fit what was needed. Yes, the murder sword feels a bit Slaaneshi... but the Black Mace? How does it really feel nurgly? There's no real indication of it rotting or well anything. The burning brand is very much not for sure Skal either. The bloody fluff debates between Tzeentch or Khorne. And also you can't kit many units out. It's basically one guy that gets it and so can every undivided individual.
And so why is it that Slaaneshi Marines (especially noise marines) can't use drugs? You said it yourself. "Can't use drugs because done too much." And DE abuse drugs to no end as well yet they still get perks don't they?
And how is it swapping? They literally change their capabilities from becoming tankier (a bit of nurgle and tzeentch) to shreddy (slaanesh) to other things. It's not precise, it's like several daemons vying for one body.
You mean chaos daemons? The codex that was originally in CSM? Or need I remind you that Chaos Daemons are also a Fantasy codex and they have no problem there do they?
Actually no, it still fits. The fluff has blastmasters and the sorts. In 3.5 you could put them on your dreadnoughts, there's still the blasters that make you not capable of overwatching on vehicles as well. So no.
And why not add an assault ramp on rhinos? It fits perfectly with Khorne and Slaanesh. Or open topped as well. And you can go on and on about Land Raiders but a Land Raider doesn't really show a swift raider force.
See you CAN'T make a fluffy legion list. You haven't proven your point . Also, what of me? How can I make a Thousand Son list?
I didn't stretch anything. Games Workshop has always put something in their Chaos books for the four different powers of Chaos. If you want to know how all four of those things relate to specific dieties then do some research and see what they most resemble. The khorne axe is obviously khorne and even says so. the mace is nurgle because it has an effect similar to an old nurgle ability. In case you haven't noticed, a good portion of 40k these days mimics the very very old stuff from Epic Space Marine and 2nd edition 40k. The black mace power resembles the old Nurgles rot from those games.
While the effect may not be described as rotting, nurgle is more than just rot. He is about diseases, plagues (not all plagues are a disease...there are plagues of frogs, plagues of locusts, plagues of insects, etc. What other chaos god would you say forces you to take a toughness test or collapse into "mouldering bone". Look up the word Moulder...it is definitely nurgle.
Do I really have to explain to you why Chaos Marines might be highly resistant to the effects of drugs after 10,000 years of exposure yet Dark Eldar aren't? Really? It is because they have things like the Oolitic Kidney, the Neuroglottis, etc. And their senses are fried. Dark Eldar keep regenerating themselves, something the Chaos Space Marines don't do. So the Dark Eldar don't build up an immunity.
And you will never see an assult ramp from a rhino. They won't even do that for marines, their poster boys, so what makes you think they will do it for Chaos Space Marines?
I did indeed prove my point, even if you refuse to accept that I did. It doesn't mean I was wrong just because you disagree with me.
I'm sure with enough research into the Thousand Sons I could come up with something for you but I doubt it would be good enough as you seem to have a pre conceived notion of what they are like. Like I said in my original post on this subject though, you CAN do it, just not necessarily as exact as you would like.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Ok, so Combat drugs are one of the things that the Emperors Children were introduced to at first and for a while that sufficed but ten thousand years after the heresy they really arent affected by them as much as they used to be. That is why they keep going to extremes for the thrills of it. Combat Drugs are also stepping on Dark Eldar toes as that is one of their very big things. It is doubtful gw will ever do this.
Except for the fact that many of the Warp based drugs while they don't do much for their senses, they still can create effects for the body such as physical strength or various things, as for the DE thing it's kinda moot considering that it's not a main thing for DE, just a side thing for their wych cult.
Can you kit a Chaos Lord to the teeth with slaaneshi artifacts and blessed with slaaneshi gifts? Absolutely. If you look through the CSM codex for the Chaos Artifacts it becomes clear that there are four different weapons that are for the four different chaos gods. The axe of blind fury is obviously Khorne, the black mace replicates the old nurgles rot in a way. It is definitely nurgle. Then the burning brand of skalathrax is painfully obvious that it is tzeentch, despite some claiming khorne. Now, when you look at Slaanesh, his birth was all about murder. When the Eldar started excessively murdering their own kind, slaaneshes birth was hastened. The murder sword is most definitely slaanesh fluffy
So your Chaos Lord can be equipped with the murder sword.
This is reaaaallllly stretching it, there has always been undivided weapons within lore, Each of those are undivided simply enough, or unaffiliated, and Tzeentchs artifact is the Scrolls of Magnus, with the burning brand having been used by Kharn and rumors about its power.
Now, the Chaos Boon table replicates in many ways the old Epic chaos gifts cards from epic space marine. A time when gifts were not chaos god specific for the most part. If you buy your lord a gift of mutation, it gives him a roll on the chaos boon table, just like the chaos lords got in epic. Just because those arent specifically tailored to fit your idea of slaanesh powers doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they very much are.
I'll give you this one, though I would love to see marks make it so that get either god specific tables, or a higher chance at other things (Or just remove some of the most useless ones like +1BS, I'd love to have the old cloven hooves make my champion cavalry
Now I didn't see anything in the possessed entry that makes them act like they are possessed by daemons from every chaos diety. If anything, those abilities remind me most of what slaanesh would give to his daemons.
You mean besides the fact they for some reason switch and change at complete random? This seems more like they've been possessed by a Tzeentch Horror rather then something more constant like a Daemonette.
Now the chosen can be made into the elite swordsmen you want them to be by giving a squad of five of them power swords, a mark for initiative 5 (thats more elite than marines, the same as the Eldar howling banshees), and they get a mark of slaanesh for feel no pain as well. Thats pretty darned elite swordsmen. Now, the way they make elite swordsmen in the marine dex isn't by giving them +1 str or even initiative. Pretty much it is through weapon options.
I'll be honest this is somewhat of a power issue for me, a power sword is horrifically costed for them as a buyable option, but yet the SM get Honour guard that are far cheaper, come with 2+ and with +2S weapons, and with the FNP it's even more so, but I'll be honest and say i would love for them to be more akin to a Palatine Blade Squad, with WS5 and Power Swords, while being far more inexpensive and being able to fight instead of the Chaos Lord
So, vehicles being equipped with blastmasters and sonic weaponry doesn't make much sense to me because those weapons were created to stimulate the senses of their wielder...which is..a vehicle?...there really is no fluff reason i can think of for having that when they could just put a loud cannon on the same vehicle.
You mean besides the fact that the Occupants of the vehicle are going to be listening in too? Not to mention the Daemon Engines who would love to feel the sensation, and for note the Slaanesh Subjuguator Daemon Engine used them also in melee combat at close range to prevent things from fighting back. There's every fluff reason for this, including the fact that many of them can be hooked up so the sounds come inside, not to mention the devices to make it so that the occupants can hear the screams from the battlefield as if they were actually there.
Now assult ramps on your vehicles? You've got them. They're called Chaos Land Raiders. Just because people believe they are too expensive is irrelevant. You have them. They work...and they are fluffy.
Because it's fluffy to basically have a land raider army rather then a raiding force equipped to take slaves.
There's also all the new sonic weapons that FFG have been coming out with, I'd love some of those sonic sniper guns and pistols, course then I'd really just want everything from the Tome of Excess.
you can say I'm stretching it all you want but you would be wrong. Those weapons are exactly what I described them as. Belonging to specific dieties. why do you think the murder sword is a sword and not a mace or a power fist or a lightning claw? because, hello, elite SWORDSMEN!
And the combat drugs thing is for more than wytch cults. The characters can take them as well. They even have a special character that deals them.
I don't see the possessed as being from different daemons, to me the way they act is more like the original host taking over and then the daemon re asserting his control so the change to his abilities occurs.
Now that link you made of the slaanesh and Khorne riders from Fantasy, exactly which 40k codex are they stepping on?
Now, the blastmasters as I already said, were made for the wielder. It is irrelevant and not at all in line with the fluff that you think they should be on vehicles. that has never been their thing. They do nothing for a vehicle or its riders. To get the best sound from it you need to be as close as possible and that means holding on to it. Any farther away than that, such as having it strapped to a vehicle and you listening to it while inside the vehicle isn't extreme enough. And the daemons don't care about the sound it makes. That's for the Chaos marines, not the daemon engines or anyone else.
And who says you can't take prisoners in Land Raiders? What better way to protect your spoils of War from wandering bands of Khornate worshippers trying to steal them from you and add their skulls to Khorne's pile o' skulls?
See, you CAN make a fluffy legion list out of the codex. I have proven my point.
Actually you didn't. I find it insulting you would claim that he's stretching things despite you going out of your way to stretch everything. Look at what you had to do for every segment, stretch things to fit what was needed. Yes, the murder sword feels a bit Slaaneshi... but the Black Mace? How does it really feel nurgly? There's no real indication of it rotting or well anything. The burning brand is very much not for sure Skal either. The bloody fluff debates between Tzeentch or Khorne. And also you can't kit many units out. It's basically one guy that gets it and so can every undivided individual.
And so why is it that Slaaneshi Marines (especially noise marines) can't use drugs? You said it yourself. "Can't use drugs because done too much." And DE abuse drugs to no end as well yet they still get perks don't they?
And how is it swapping? They literally change their capabilities from becoming tankier (a bit of nurgle and tzeentch) to shreddy (slaanesh) to other things. It's not precise, it's like several daemons vying for one body.
You mean chaos daemons? The codex that was originally in CSM? Or need I remind you that Chaos Daemons are also a Fantasy codex and they have no problem there do they?
Actually no, it still fits. The fluff has blastmasters and the sorts. In 3.5 you could put them on your dreadnoughts, there's still the blasters that make you not capable of overwatching on vehicles as well. So no.
And why not add an assault ramp on rhinos? It fits perfectly with Khorne and Slaanesh. Or open topped as well. And you can go on and on about Land Raiders but a Land Raider doesn't really show a swift raider force.
See you CAN'T make a fluffy legion list. You haven't proven your point . Also, what of me? How can I make a Thousand Son list?
I didn't stretch anything. Games Workshop has always put something in their Chaos books for the four different powers of Chaos. If you want to know how all four of those things relate to specific dieties then do some research and see what they most resemble. The khorne axe is obviously khorne and even says so. the mace is nurgle because it has an effect similar to an old nurgle ability. In case you haven't noticed, a good portion of 40k these days mimics the very very old stuff from Epic Space Marine and 2nd edition 40k. The black mace power resembles the old Nurgles rot from those games.
While the effect may not be described as rotting, nurgle is more than just rot. He is about diseases, plagues (not all plagues are a disease...there are plagues of frogs, plagues of locusts, plagues of insects, etc. What other chaos god would you say forces you to take a toughness test or collapse into "mouldering bone". Look up the word Moulder...it is definitely nurgle.
Do I really have to explain to you why Chaos Marines might be highly resistant to the effects of drugs after 10,000 years of exposure yet Dark Eldar aren't? Really? It is because they have things like the Oolitic Kidney, the Neuroglottis, etc. And their senses are fried. Dark Eldar keep regenerating themselves, something the Chaos Space Marines don't do. So the Dark Eldar don't build up an immunity.
And you will never see an assult ramp from a rhino. They won't even do that for marines, their poster boys, so what makes you think they will do it for Chaos Space Marines?
I did indeed prove my point, even if you refuse to accept that I did. It doesn't mean I was wrong just because you disagree with me.
I'm sure with enough research into the Thousand Sons I could come up with something for you but I doubt it would be good enough as you seem to have a pre conceived notion of what they are like. Like I said in my original post on this subject though, you CAN do it, just not necessarily as exact as you would like.
Except there are none. They aren't restricted. Plus swords are the most generic weapon in the game. Sabres, swords, it's not really slaaneshi. The mace is not nurgle. It has an old ability but that doesn't make it solely them. Slaanesh can get FNP, that doesn't make Slaanesh Nurgle suddenly. Nurgle used to have FNP on daemons, then it became a special upgrade ability but instead you had stealth out of nowhere. So no, that argument really doesn't work. Do not get me wrong, there is some small truth but when a Tzeentchian daemon or lord can wield it such arguments fall apart.
And if so, why do the Noise Marines continue to use Noise weapons? Why is combat drugs mentioned in lore and fluff? What about the newer noise marines that haven't been abusing it? Not all of them are 10,000 years old. As per regenerating, not all do. The big ones have aged so much and tormented so deliciously that they start to look old again.
I don't, nor do I expect them to really care about anybody but SM. To be fair we haven't seen BA yet.
But what did you prove? You didn't prove me a legion, you proved to me I could imagine it is possible. Not bad by any means but it's not a legion in reality. It's playing let's pretend. That and you never explained the blastmasters on machines which did work and used to exist. That and the ripped off top is actually a fluff point for Berzerkers riding open topped rhinos.
The last one I will say with a heavy heart. Simply put, there is no feasable way to make a Thousand Son army. Not a single way. There is no possibility of it unless you wish to spam out Thousand Sons and a single Ahriman. Unlike any other legion, we are the ones that fit in least. Our primary force? Ghosts that habitate suits of armour. Resilient phantoms that lie inert unless near war or with a sorcerer. Sorcerers keep them as guards, leading them to war as squad sergeants. The only individuals that are not automitons are Sorcerers one and all. Mighty, terrifying sorcerers of archane might. We are tanky to an extent, in older times we had 2W and were immune to anything S5 and below (or was it S4 and below? It was also only shooting so assault could still bypass that). We are also prone to sorcerous powers none more so than divination, scrying the possible futures. We stand as masters of the warp bargaining with damnation and collecting archane knowledge. The only ones at our level are Eldar at full potential and the chaos daemons themselves. Covens of sorcerers stand in uints to enhance their powers. We had such a mastery that we could cast magic without rolls. The army was a bit minimal on vehicles admittedly. Taking them still feels out as they aren't blessed with magic nor a mark of Tzeentch.
Simply put, the only way to play Thousand Sons is if you grab Ahriman and some Thousand Sons. That's the only way to play a true Thousand Son force. And oh the options. Thousand Sons have almost no weapon diversity at all. Simply put, there is no way to build them any other way and really, the most agonizing flaw is that neither of these options is any good with KSons being one of the worst units in the game and the Tzeentch discipline that all of your members roll on being an insult to tzeentch and Ksons at once.
I just find it weird that people are saying "But you can make a [Insert Legion Here] army with the current 'Dex!". I find it weird for three reasons:
1. What they're suggesting is just the Codex + 'Counts As'. It's taking a list in a certain way and saying that it 'Counts As' a World Eater or Alpha Legion army.
2. We live in a world where Chapter Tactics are a thing, allowing a Marine player to actually play a White Scar, Iron Hands, Salamander, etc. army with rules that represent how the army plays.
3. We have Dark Angel, Blood Angel, Space Wolf and Grey Knight Codices as separate books allowing for variant Marines, yet Chaos wanting rules for the Legions is somehow too much?
What the hell people?
Once upon a time you could play all the Legions. Not all of them were very good (1KSons were one of the most gimped armies in the game - and someone in this thread called them "cheesy"... oh Jesus... ), but they could be done. Then they had all their Legion rules taken away, and then all their Daemons (even generic ones) taken away. You can't play a World Eater army in current 40K any more than you can play a "Valhallan" army or a "Beil-Tan" army. These groups don't have rules - they are just 'Counts As'. There are rules for Iron Hands and Imperial Fists in the Marine Codex, and they each have their own supplements on top of that. Black Templars still exist within that book as well, with things unique to them. Yet for some of you here you're acting as if Legion rules are a bridge too far, or something that Chaos players don't "need". How does that logic make any sense at all???
Why do people rail against this when it comes to Chaos? If I suggested "Move the Blood Angels back into the Marine Codex", people would scream bloody murder. Suggest rules that differentiate Thousand Sons from Iron Warriors though, well no, we can't ever have that!
Look to the current Marine 'Dex. Look to the Forge World Horus Heresy series. Right here we have two examples of how one can include army-specific special rules without creating an entire new list (ala Blood Angels and those books). It's such a simple thing to do - and you could apply the methodology to virtually everything (Eldar Craftworlds, Guard Regiments, Ork Klanz, Necron Dynasties, Tau Septs, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Dark Eldar... whatever Dark Eldar come in I can't remember exactly).
..... Chaos Space Marines... Eldar... Guardsmen... Ork Klanz.... Necron Dynasties, Tau septs, hive fleets, Dark Eldar, SoB.... all of them with their own "chapter tactics"... It... it'd be beautiful, delicious. All unique with just the most minimal of variations. Not needing them to represent with rules, maybe some supplements adding minor craftworlds and some other forces... just. all my money.
Now, putting balance issues aside, just look at the most recent Codex, a Codex that already has people going "Oh no! We've been Tyranid-ed". I'm talking about Orks.
Imagine if that book had (and this is just off the top of my head):
Ork List - everything that's in the Ork list exactly as normal.
Klan Kunnin' - Each Klan gets a 'Klan Kunnin' section that gives them different special rules.
Klan Kunnin' (Goff Klan): Gets +1 HQ and +3 Troops, although must take 3 Troops as Compulsory. Each HQ allows you take either Nobz or MANZ as a Troops. Cannot take Fortifications.
Klan Kunnin' (Bad Moonz Klan): Flash Gits can be taken as Elites and Heavy Support.
Klan Kunnin' (Death Skullz Klan): Lootas as Elites and HS. Looted Wagon as Dedicated Transport.
Klan Kunnin' (Evil Sunz Klan): Bikerz as Troops. Buggies/Trakks as Elites and FA. All Boyz Mobz have to be in Trukks.
Klan Kunnin' (Snake Bite Klan): Big Gunz as Elites and HS. Grots don't take up FOC slots, but can't outnumber the regular Boyz squads.
Klan Kunnin' (Blood Axes): Kommandoz and Stormboyz as Elites as well as their respective FOC slots. Gets +1 Fortification. Compulsory Troops must be Shoota Boyz. Can ally with Guard as Desperate Allies.
Again, none of what I said above is really "balanced". It's just an example off the top of my head of what you could do by including faction rules within a book to allow different types of armies whilst still using the same core army list (exactly how the Marine 'Dex does it).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just find it weird that people are saying "But you can make a [Insert Legion Here] army with the current 'Dex!". I find it weird for three reasons:
1. What they're suggesting is just the Codex + 'Counts As'. It's taking a list in a certain way and saying that it 'Counts As' a World Eater or Alpha Legion army.
2. We live in a world where Chapter Tactics are a thing, allowing a Marine player to actually play a White Scar, Iron Hands, Salamander, etc. army with rules that represent how the army plays.
3. We have Dark Angel, Blood Angel, Space Wolf and Grey Knight Codices as separate books allowing for variant Marines, yet Chaos wanting rules for the Legions is somehow too much?
What the hell people?
Once upon a time you could play all the Legions. Not all of them were very good (1KSons were one of the most gimped armies in the game - and someone in this thread called them "cheesy"... oh Jesus... ), but they could be done. Then they had all their Legion rules taken away, and then all their Daemons (even generic ones) taken away. You can't play a World Eater army in current 40K any more than you can play a "Valhallan" army or a "Beil-Tan" army. These groups don't have rules - they are just 'Counts As'. There are rules for Iron Hands and Imperial Fists in the Marine Codex, and they each have their own supplements on top of that. Black Templars still exist within that book as well, with things unique to them. Yet for some of you here you're acting as if Legion rules are a bridge too far, or something that Chaos players don't "need". How does that logic make any sense at all???
Why do people rail against this when it comes to Chaos? If I suggested "Move the Blood Angels back into the Marine Codex", people would scream bloody murder. Suggest rules that differentiate Thousand Sons from Iron Warriors though, well no, we can't ever have that!
Look to the current Marine 'Dex. Look to the Forge World Horus Heresy series. Right here we have two examples of how one can include army-specific special rules without creating an entire new list (ala Blood Angels and those books). It's such a simple thing to do - and you could apply the methodology to virtually everything (Eldar Craftworlds, Guard Regiments, Ork Klanz, Necron Dynasties, Tau Septs, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Dark Eldar... whatever Dark Eldar come in I can't remember exactly).
How come special rules for the different color schemes is necessary? I feel it actually takes away from the group by saying this color scheme always play this specific way. Look at the Eldar codex for example: If I want to use a force comprised of elite guardians supported by powerful farseer and his seer council I can do so. Or I can run pure wraith units if I want to play up Iyanden focus on ghost warriors. Instead of saying only Craftworld: Iyanden can take an all wraith army or limiting a Iyanden army to only taking wraith units I can choose which aspect of the craftworld to focus on. I do agree that the chaos book has some bizarre things when trying to put together your army: lack of god specific daemon weapons outside of khorne etc. However, I don't think doing something like if you choose a Night Lord army then you must spam raptors to be true night lords. Restrctions can make people be more creative, but it can also have the opposite effect and take a varied group and pigeonhole them into a single play style.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just find it weird that people are saying "But you can make a [Insert Legion Here] army with the current 'Dex!". I find it weird for three reasons:
1. What they're suggesting is just the Codex + 'Counts As'. It's taking a list in a certain way and saying that it 'Counts As' a World Eater or Alpha Legion army.
2. We live in a world where Chapter Tactics are a thing, allowing a Marine player to actually play a White Scar, Iron Hands, Salamander, etc. army with rules that represent how the army plays.
3. We have Dark Angel, Blood Angel, Space Wolf and Grey Knight Codices as separate books allowing for variant Marines, yet Chaos wanting rules for the Legions is somehow too much?
What the hell people?
Once upon a time you could play all the Legions. Not all of them were very good (1KSons were one of the most gimped armies in the game - and someone in this thread called them "cheesy"... oh Jesus... ), but they could be done. Then they had all their Legion rules taken away, and then all their Daemons (even generic ones) taken away. You can't play a World Eater army in current 40K any more than you can play a "Valhallan" army or a "Beil-Tan" army. These groups don't have rules - they are just 'Counts As'. There are rules for Iron Hands and Imperial Fists in the Marine Codex, and they each have their own supplements on top of that. Black Templars still exist within that book as well, with things unique to them. Yet for some of you here you're acting as if Legion rules are a bridge too far, or something that Chaos players don't "need". How does that logic make any sense at all???
Why do people rail against this when it comes to Chaos? If I suggested "Move the Blood Angels back into the Marine Codex", people would scream bloody murder. Suggest rules that differentiate Thousand Sons from Iron Warriors though, well no, we can't ever have that!
Look to the current Marine 'Dex. Look to the Forge World Horus Heresy series. Right here we have two examples of how one can include army-specific special rules without creating an entire new list (ala Blood Angels and those books). It's such a simple thing to do - and you could apply the methodology to virtually everything (Eldar Craftworlds, Guard Regiments, Ork Klanz, Necron Dynasties, Tau Septs, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Dark Eldar... whatever Dark Eldar come in I can't remember exactly).
How come special rules for the different color schemes is necessary? I feel it actually takes away from the group by saying this color scheme always play this specific way. Look at the Eldar codex for example: If I want to use a force comprised of elite guardians supported by powerful farseer and his seer council I can do so. Or I can run pure wraith units if I want to play up Iyanden focus on ghost warriors. Instead of saying only Craftworld: Iyanden can take an all wraith army or limiting a Iyanden army to only taking wraith units I can choose which aspect of the craftworld to focus on. I do agree that the chaos book has some bizarre things when trying to put together your army: lack of god specific daemon weapons outside of khorne etc. However, I don't think doing something like if you choose a Night Lord army then you must spam raptors to be true night lords. Restrctions can make people be more creative, but it can also have the opposite effect and take a varied group and pigeonhole them into a single play style.
But the rules don't necessarily force you to use them for the most part. And, to be fair, orks are far more gimmicky in their forces. The biker army really doesn't field footsloggers at all as an example. Besides that, a paint scheme doesn't force them to play this or that in reality. You can be a successor chapter or a different successor that uses rules for somebody else. I have a little SM chapter that uses BT rules but is UM descendant to better represent their tactics. Add to that, an even better way is to keep the names vague. Not really calling them outright this or that bar a few exceptions, KSons are Ksons, Emp's children are Emp's children, etc. But Word Bearers, Black Legion, etc? On these, keep it more general. Something like, [Generic name for preachers], for the black legion [Something something grimdark]. Obviously harkens and teases at what they are intended for but keeps it open. Thing is, the SM's rules are a good way. For starters, they are all free. Add to that, they give nice little perks. Salamanders get buffs to flamers. Nothing big and you don'tneed them but you are steared towards them. And think about this, you don't stop there! Heck, make supplements for rules! Minor warbands, minor chaptors, little klan special tactics. The skies are the limits!
Really I think it'd be better if Chapter tactics were named something else. Fists being a name to reference their defensive wall capabilities and stubbornness and so on. It makes it vague so that you can go far more general with it all.
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: How come special rules for the different color schemes is necessary?
*deep breath*
Because they're not just different colour schemes!!!!!!
The Bad Moonz are different to the Blood Axes who are different to Iyande who are different to Biel-Tan who are different to World Eaters who are different to Night Lords who are different to Iron Hands who are different to Ultramarines. And in that sentence, two of those 'different colour schemes' have their own separate rules. The rest do not.
If you want to use an army to represent another one, that's fine. No one says that your Wraith-heavy army must be Iyanden, but the "Iyanden List" would be where those rules come from.
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: How come special rules for the different color schemes is necessary?
*deep breath*
Because they're not just different colour schemes!!!!!!
The Bad Moonz are different to the Blood Axes who are different to Iyande who are different to Biel-Tan who are different to World Eaters who are different to Night Lords who are different to Iron Hands who are different to Ultramarines. And in that sentence, two of those 'different colour schemes' have their own separate rules. The rest do not.
If you want to use an army to represent another one, that's fine. No one says that your Wraith-heavy army must be Iyanden, but the "Iyanden List" would be where those rules come from.
Ah OK then, so have the rules in the book to add some flavor and spice to an army, but not shackling the army to any one play style correct? If so I agree though execution wise I prefer the Eldar codex method to Space Marine method of saying here are the traits because this army excel in this one aspect all the time period. Though I guess simply naming them Chapter Traits and not having them tied to any one chapter would be just fine.
I'd still base it around the actual Chapters/Craftworlds/Regiments/Klanz/etc. rather than making them generic. Generic traits lead to something we had a while back, the Guard Doctrine/Marine Traits systems. Those systems did not work, and I'll quickly explain why before someone jumps in and says "Those were great!".
Firstly, yes, they were great. I had tons of fun with the old Guard Doctrine system. It was wonderful building custom armies with all these various ways of changing units, special rules and whatnot. You could play anything you want. However, there was an inherent problem with them, and it was a problem that the Marines Traits system had as well, and even a little bit with the 3.5 Chaos Codex Legion rules:
The rules were based around giving things up.
What I mean by that is you had the standard Guard list, and then if you wanted to take a Doctrine army you were given 5 points to spend on Doctrines, and a bunch of the regular units from the Guard list became "Restricted Units". These were things like Priests, Rough Riders, Storm Troopers, Ratlings, Ogryn, and so on. You lost them from your list and had to buy them back. So where's the downside? Well, if you never intended to take Priests, Rough Riders, etc. then you weren't actually losing anything.
I never used Priests, Sanctioned Psykers, Stormies, Ratlings and all of them. They were, for the most part, junk units (the "best" Sanction Psyker power was a Heavy D6 Lasgun... yeah...). So by giving these units up that you were never going to use in the first place, you gained all these extra abilities (Iron Discipline and Close-Order Drill being two of the best).
The same applied to the Marine one. There were major and minor advantages and major and minor disadvantages. Some of the disadvantages were crippling (give up 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS slot), but others weren't. One particular one wasn't at all - no allies. Again, it was giving up something you may not have been taking in the first place, so you could take two advantages and then your "disadvantage" was something that wasn't really a disadvantage (and keep in mind, this is 4th Ed, long before the Allies Matrix or any of that nonsense - allies back then just mean Inquisition/Grey Knights/Sisters).
3.5 Chaos, much as I adore that book, had a similar problem. Iron Warriors could gain another HS slot by "giving up" two FA slots. Night Lords could do the opposite. Well if you were never going to use more than 1 FA or 1 HS slot, then you weren't really giving anything up.
Even the Craftworld Eldar book had a bit of that, like how Beil-Tan would give up certain Guardian units in order to take Aspects as Troops. Well... if you had no plan on taking Guardians, then you weren't really giving anything up.
Generally speaking - and this isn't always true - being forced to give something up to gain an advantage can be gamed if you never intended to take the restricted unit in the first place. This is why I love the current Marine Codex and especially the FWHH books. They're additions - not subtractions - they add rules and units, rather than adding things in place of other things.
Agreeing on this! As much as I loved 3.5 in concept and the doctrines, they were rather exploitable and flawed with sacrifices that usually.... you wanted to sacrifice anyways. It helpe to make things rather imbalanced without much effort ina rather overt manner.
The problem is that 3.5 was the best example of Chaos as a whole, and as a result is the main usage when it comes to showing people that something akin to it can actually work.
I mean people don't shout SM down about fluff and blood angels and stuff, but when I give true examples as to why Emperor's Children are not fluffy at all or even have the options to it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd still base it around the actual Chapters/Craftworlds/Regiments/Klanz/etc. rather than making them generic. Generic traits lead to something we had a while back, the Guard Doctrine/Marine Traits systems. Those systems did not work, and I'll quickly explain why before someone jumps in and says "Those were great!".
Firstly, yes, they were great. I had tons of fun with the old Guard Doctrine system. It was wonderful building custom armies with all these various ways of changing units, special rules and whatnot. You could play anything you want. However, there was an inherent problem with them, and it was a problem that the Marines Traits system had as well, and even a little bit with the 3.5 Chaos Codex Legion rules:
The rules were based around giving things up.
What I mean by that is you had the standard Guard list, and then if you wanted to take a Doctrine army you were given 5 points to spend on Doctrines, and a bunch of the regular units from the Guard list became "Restricted Units". These were things like Priests, Rough Riders, Storm Troopers, Ratlings, Ogryn, and so on. You lost them from your list and had to buy them back. So where's the downside? Well, if you never intended to take Priests, Rough Riders, etc. then you weren't actually losing anything.
I never used Priests, Sanctioned Psykers, Stormies, Ratlings and all of them. They were, for the most part, junk units (the "best" Sanction Psyker power was a Heavy D6 Lasgun... yeah...). So by giving these units up that you were never going to use in the first place, you gained all these extra abilities (Iron Discipline and Close-Order Drill being two of the best).
The same applied to the Marine one. There were major and minor advantages and major and minor disadvantages. Some of the disadvantages were crippling (give up 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS slot), but others weren't. One particular one wasn't at all - no allies. Again, it was giving up something you may not have been taking in the first place, so you could take two advantages and then your "disadvantage" was something that wasn't really a disadvantage (and keep in mind, this is 4th Ed, long before the Allies Matrix or any of that nonsense - allies back then just mean Inquisition/Grey Knights/Sisters).
3.5 Chaos, much as I adore that book, had a similar problem. Iron Warriors could gain another HS slot by "giving up" two FA slots. Night Lords could do the opposite. Well if you were never going to use more than 1 FA or 1 HS slot, then you weren't really giving anything up.
Even the Craftworld Eldar book had a bit of that, like how Beil-Tan would give up certain Guardian units in order to take Aspects as Troops. Well... if you had no plan on taking Guardians, then you weren't really giving anything up.
Generally speaking - and this isn't always true - being forced to give something up to gain an advantage can be gamed if you never intended to take the restricted unit in the first place. This is why I love the current Marine Codex and especially the FWHH books. They're additions - not subtractions - they add rules and units, rather than adding things in place of other things.
Ah, I see the old style of giving up something to gain something was what I was thinking of when you were talking about faction specific rules. So a Kabal trait would be done like this: Obsidian Rose: Due to their mastery in crafting the finest quality weapons all units with this rule re roll failed to hit results of 1. The style your were purposing would be something like this correct?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The problem is that 3.5 was the best example of Chaos as a whole, and as a result is the main usage when it comes to showing people that something akin to it can actually work.
I mean people don't shout SM down about fluff and blood angels and stuff, but when I give true examples as to why Emperor's Children are not fluffy at all or even have the options to it.
How dare you try to represent your unique armies that are far more diverse than one SM chapter to the other! You disgust me no legion tactics or weapons for you play with your 3 EC models and be happy and use your imagination. Now then, let me decide on what I shall play today. Oh I do love my Space Marines. Shall I play GK for some psyker brilliance? Naw, maybe DA? No no BA! Forget that, SW! Nonsense! Aaaaa I know! I shall play SM. But what Chapter tactic will I choose!? So many choices to choose from oh Forgeworld you mean you make not only legion rules for me again but you also have dozens of chapter tactics I can get online for free and play with!? Why thank you for this kind gift you have given me! And yay Ultramarines have 3 tactics that they can choose from! Now where is my supplement for my one Company of 100 max marines
Yeah. I mean, if something must be given up, then have it be a special rule and not a unit. I mean, the various Chapter Tactics replace one another, so you have a general army rule, and then the faction rule replaces that.
Okay, I really get what Zombie was trying to say and I can see that with enough suspension of disbelief you could actually build such a force, but I still think he got a bit overzealous with defending his vision.
I can see using the Palatine Blades as power sword slaaneshi Chosen, but my main issue with that is that they're terribly overpriced and don't really reflect being master swordsmen with WS4. That's the same combat prowess as Death Korps guardsmen and regular tactical marines to give you some sense of scale. I5 helps a bit, but they're still underwhelming at best.
As for the weapons.. I'm sorry, but you're stretching it pretty far, to be honest. Just reading through the flavour texts of the artefacts clearly shows that the Mace is 100% Undivided(cursed by all the Daemon Primarchs) while the Murder Sword, assumed to be the Anathame or something very much like it, which was a xeno artefact, so it definetely -is not- Slaanesh affiliated. The only actual God-affiliated items are the Axe and the Scroll while the rest is Undivided. Claiming otherwise is trying very hard to find any connection through suspension of disbelief and making them counts-asses, which is not something everyone likes.
As for the drugs.. I'm sorry, but Slaanesh -is- drugs. Just because Dark Eldar do it doesn't mean that slaaneshi CSM can't. Guess what, both armies have access to twisted, grotesque(sic!) warped flesh creatures and noone whines. EC want drugs and everyone loses their minds! Saying that they've built up immunity is rubbish at best - if we're going to stretch things to our interpretation, I would be more inclined towards claiming that EC's poison neutralization organs were twisted to actually produce drugs themselves to keep the marines pumped. Not to mention all the stuff Fabulous Bile pumps into them.
So, yeah, I get the point, but it's desperate stretching just to get the feel that the Codex simply lacks. People don't want to pretend, they want viable, defined equipment/unit options that this Codex failed to deliver, depending hugely on very expensive upgrades for people to try pretending like it's something else.
People bring valid points about Chapter Tactics being present and pretty much viable as a part of the game, so telling them that Legion Tactics is not necessary is just plain stupid. And even if the Codex is meant to be Undivided, then bring out Legion supplements! Although I think it wouldn't hurt GW to put Legion/Undivided/Renegade tactics in next CSM 'dex that they definetely deserve, along with more god/legion specific gear to choose from.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
As a BT player, not even close. Chapter Tactics isn't a panacea. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
EDIT: That came across harsher than I meant it to, what I'm saying is that having Chapter Tactics isn't the same as being able to build a fluffy army that isn't rubbish on the tabletop, that actually requires the Chapter Tactics in question to be good.
As an example, if Legion Tactics: World Eaters gave you Crusader and Adamantine Will (funny how BT and WE are so alike ), would that be enough to capture the "feel" of a World Eater army? Probably not, because there'd still be the issue of melee being poop in comparison to shooting unless you're a Jetseer council or Screamerstar or somesuch.
As a BT player, I say chapter tactics as a concept is perfectly fine, and wonderful.
The problem with the Black Templars being rolled into the main codex and getting chapter tactics was the execution, not the concept. The actual units Templars use in combat aren't unique to them, only their command structure is unique. That could have been very easily fleshed out with chapter tactics. What we got instead was disgraceful and lazy.
Honestly though, if the last few codices are any example, I think they would have been screwed even if they'd been given the
BlaxicanX wrote: As a BT player, I say chapter tactics as a concept is perfectly fine, and wonderful.
The problem with the Black Templars being rolled into the main codex and getting chapter tactics was the execution, not the concept. The actual units Templars use in combat aren't unique to them, only their command structure is unique. That could have been very easily fleshed out with chapter tactics. What we got instead was disgraceful and lazy.
Honestly though, if the last few codices are any example, I think they would have been screwed even if they'd been given the
Agreed on that, I edited my post to make it clearer. The concept itself is fine, it's just that "having a Chapter/Legion tactic" isn't the same as "having the means to build a fluffy army that's not rubbish".
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
As a BT player, not even close. Chapter Tactics isn't a panacea. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
EDIT: That came across harsher than I meant it to, what I'm saying is that having Chapter Tactics isn't the same as being able to build a fluffy army that isn't rubbish on the tabletop, that actually requires the Chapter Tactics in question to be good.
As an example, if Legion Tactics: World Eaters gave you Crusader and Adamantine Will (funny how BT and WE are so alike ), would that be enough to capture the "feel" of a World Eater army? Probably not, because there'd still be the issue of melee being poop in comparison to shooting unless you're a Jetseer council or Screamerstar or somesuch.
And what? It's still better then the alternative of absolutely nothing, at least it's a start somewhere.
BT was a SM codex that was melee themed shoved into the SM codex, yes I figured that, melee is just shafted in this edition (6th/7th) overall unless your specific deathstars.
I think the point he was making is that "better than nothing" doesn't mean it's good.
And he's right about applying rules like that. Would those two rules make a WE army feel like a WE army? No. It would be something, and certainly more than we have now, but it wouldn't be much.
For Chaos I think that a top-down revision of the Marks is a good idea. It's one of the things I liked about the 3.5 'Dex was that Marks were consistent across the board. There was no Khorne Berzerker and then Chaos Space Marines w/Mark of Khorne. If you were a Chaos Marine, and had a MoK, you were a Berzerker. End of story. Terminator + MON = Plague Terminator. Havoc Squad + MOS = Noise Marine Havocs.
The incongruity of having Cult Marine squads, but nothing else is ever cult is just stupid.
I think marines have chapter tactics and we don't have anything like it is because marines constitute more than half the purchased armies. It allows the generic army enough flavors that despite numerical dominance it doesn't create as bland a gaming landscape. Subdivide 60% of armies by the chapter tactics and stand alone books and you've got percentages that are still larger than any particular non-SM codex army.
From a market perspective they only think of CSM as some of a fraction of SM. They've also seen these sorts of rules as narrowing purchasing potential. SM in GWs eyes can support it bacause of their larger player base. Is there a truly representative scheme that doesn't result in a particular chaos army just being spam a particular unit as the main troop and flavorfully exclude something?-I don't know. To me count as is plenty enough as long as there are enough possibilities. Allowing us the big 4 Elites as troops is probably the most GWs willing to do.
I think we should have rules to distinguish different subfactions I just don't see GW giving us that.
aka_mythos wrote: I think marines have chapter tactics and we don't have anything like it is because marines constitute more than half the purchased armies. It allows the generic army enough flavors that despite numerical dominance it doesn't create as bland a gaming landscape. Subdivide 60% of armies by the chapter tactics and stand alone books and you've got percentages that are still larger than any particular non-SM codex army.
From a market perspective they only think of CSM as some of a fraction of SM. They've also seen these sorts of rules as narrowing purchasing potential. SM in GWs eyes can support it bacause of their larger player base. Is there a truly representative scheme that doesn't result in a particular chaos army just being spam a particular unit as the main troop and flavorfully exclude something?-I don't know. To me count as is plenty enough as long as there are enough possibilities. Allowing us the big 4 Elites as troops is probably the most GWs willing to do.
I think we should have rules to distinguish different subfactions I just don't see GW giving us that.
Problem is considering GW has been focusing so hard on SM, they may have ended up with the higher playerbase due to it as a result, they get most of the new sets, most of the new models, and generally they have been since 2nd/3rd.
Actually CSM used to be a pretty big playerbase back in 3.5 but the 4th and 6th edition codices really haven't helped the playerbase do anything but dwindle.
The regular CSM codex has more than enough stuff in it to make any legion you want to make. But I'm sorry that you can't take a World Eaters Terminator Captain that would be like Kharn on primarch level combat drugs simply because you think thats the way the captain of the World eaters would be so its fluffy, or that every single model in your Emperors Children have blastmasters
But you CAN make any legion you want to. Just not necessarily the exact way you personally think they should be. But hey, Eldar can't either..nor can anyone else.
Just painting an army the colors doesn't make it that army, SM gets all their flavors and can eat it too.
As a BT player, not even close. Chapter Tactics isn't a panacea. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
EDIT: That came across harsher than I meant it to, what I'm saying is that having Chapter Tactics isn't the same as being able to build a fluffy army that isn't rubbish on the tabletop, that actually requires the Chapter Tactics in question to be good.
As an example, if Legion Tactics: World Eaters gave you Crusader and Adamantine Will (funny how BT and WE are so alike ), would that be enough to capture the "feel" of a World Eater army? Probably not, because there'd still be the issue of melee being poop in comparison to shooting unless you're a Jetseer council or Screamerstar or somesuch.
Don't get me wrong, you got dealt a pretty bad hand with your Chapter Tactics and SM tactics could use with some rebalances. That said, this was a problem with 3.5 as well. Thousand Sons were extremely gimped at the time as well. Whilst they admittedly weren't good, I confess to having liked them simply because they felt like KSons albeit gimped. I really wish that supplements were something better and not as expensive though. I felt that if anybody deserved a supplement, it was BT.
StarTrotter wrote: Actually CSM used to be a pretty big playerbase back in 3.5 but the 4th and 6th edition codices really haven't helped the playerbase do anything...
I remember, but no matter how big it was it's never been close to SM level. At one point GW said "over half of everything sold were space marines" meaning loyalists... That means there are more SM buyers than all of the WH Fantasy players. Maybe it's hyperbole or maybe it's strangely skewed statistics given by their head designer... but even if it's only half correct that's still more than tripple the number of chaos players. Right or wrong GW is going by its numbers and that drives their product making decisions.
StarTrotter wrote: Actually CSM used to be a pretty big playerbase back in 3.5 but the 4th and 6th edition codices really haven't helped the playerbase do anything...
I remember, but no matter how big it was it's never been close to SM level. At one point GW said "over half of everything sold were space marines" meaning loyalists... That means there are more SM buyers than all of the WH Fantasy players. Maybe it's hyperbole or maybe it's strangely skewed statistics given by their head designer... but even if it's only half correct that's still more than tripple the number of chaos players. Right or wrong GW is going by its numbers and that drives their product making decisions.
Which of course leads to a logic loophole. Their games advertise Space Marines above all, every single one of their starter boxes has SM, it's a beginner friendly army, "super heroes", they recommend it, the most sales, free models, give you a SM to paint to start with, are usually the front cover, and have a codex with multiple special rules and 3 codices for minor variations on armies and then the rather dramatic GKSM. They sell well so advertised more and other things sell less. The fact CSM numbers have dwindled so radically is of particular note.
I don't see the logic loophole. They've just created a self fulfilling profit prophecy, a relative sure thing. Business tends to favor that consistency over a risk that at best will only yield small gains. They play things remarkably safe. Even if they wanted to take a bigger risk taking a bigger risk with SM has smaller odds of failing.
GWs designers have said they're incredibly happy about the digital publishing a because it's lowered the threshold for success that a book has to meet. They do want to do more, they just number crunchers stopping them.
aka_mythos wrote: I don't see the logic loophole. They've just created a self fulfilling profit prophecy, a relative sure thing. Business tends to favor that consistency over a risk that at best will only yield small gains. They play things remarkably safe. Even if they wanted to take a bigger risk taking a bigger risk with SM has smaller odds of failing.
GWs designers have said they're incredibly happy about the digital publishing a because it's lowered the threshold for success that a book has to meet. They do want to do more, they just number crunchers stopping them.
Nothing is stopping them beyond greed, the sad thing is SM is the only safe bet for a codex update, for a model update, it's one of the reasons I can't really get people into the hobby because they see things are skewed so horribly
I think they're shortsighted but they're backed up by solid proof. SM sell very well and most everything turns relatively thin profits. While we believe they'd be more successful doing what we say they have numbers on their side and they have a due diligence to pursue that profitability for their investors. GW is pursuing profit growth and not market growth and as long as that's the case there is little reason to give us what chaos players want.
aka_mythos wrote: I like all the big 4 cult stuff, but I'm probably in the minority for thinking the codex should be focused on undivided as it is, and that the pure big 4 cults should each be relegated to supplements. I've played pure Khorne, pure Nurgle, and pure Slaanesh... now I play undivided because it's allowed me to create my own backstory in a way mono-god tend to constrain. Once you start demanding mono-god armies get more attention there is a lot of redundancy that is insisted on. When that is compartmentalized into a supplement it allieviates the redundancy and allows room for diversity. I'd like to see more attention given to the generally undivided cults, like raptors and Obliterators. You think an EC dread would be cool how about an Obliterator dread?
You're wrong about being in the minority. The reason I made this thread is because undivided players are in the vast majority. On top of that, your point about being constrained to play a cult army is exactly my point. There need to be actual options for people who want to go down that route. If you count Forgeworld then you actually do have options when it comes to World Eaters, and just enough options if you want to play Death Guard. But they have nothing for Thousand Sons or Emperor's Children that they haven't given to every legion (including black for some reason) already.
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StarTrotter wrote: Simply put, the only way to play Thousand Sons is if you grab Ahriman and some Thousand Sons. That's the only way to play a true Thousand Son force. And oh the options. Thousand Sons have almost no weapon diversity at all. Simply put, there is no way to build them any other way and really, the most agonizing flaw is that neither of these options is any good with KSons being one of the worst units in the game and the Tzeentch discipline that all of your members roll on being an insult to tzeentch and Ksons at once.
Read Ahriman: Exile. You'll notice the thousand sons use mutant serfs. Significantly different from cultists in their appearance and apparently more organized and potentially better equipped. Also, even though they haven't been mentioned, it seems obvious that there would be those thousand sons who were wearing terminator armor when the rubric was cast. There have to be Rubric Terminators somewhere. So there. 3 different infantry types. I'll grant you that the Rubric Marines themselves have no weapon diversity. I'm fine with that. The Terminators might, though!
What I meant by that is... that's really all that the book gives Thousand Sons. Yes, there are Terminators. Yes, there are sorcerers that aren't Ahriman, yes there are likely Havocs and more that got sealed in the armour and then there's mutant serfs. That said, They aren't in the codex and the only way to really play a pure KSon force is with 2 models. And the nail in the coffin is no real options. You can't even kit out your force in any real significant way.
But havocs? I'm not sure. I feel like since the rubricae are just used as bodyguards now they don't use those kinds of weapons anymore. Of course it's just as likely Games Workshop will change that what with their "anything can be anything!" approach, but that's just how it is and I'd say that the Thousand Sons are naturally a low-infantry army anyways. Even if they had mutant serfs and rubric terminators, those would be rare to see fielded on the battlefield anyways and it's more in-character from a fluff standpoint for them to just come into battle with a few squads of Rubricae and no other infantry (of their own anyway)
Honestly, they're pretty naturally predisposed to having little to no options in that regard. But I don't consider that to be such a bad thing because it's just one more thing that makes them unique. (Even though units unique to them would make them just as unique hopefully you see my point)
Models are some of the greatest weakness of CSM... We've talked about poor sculpts and such but this is a different problem. A key aspect of Chaos has been the taking of marks and devotion to one of the big 4 chaos gods... Beside the big 4 cult units there is absolute no model supported way of representing it. A critical defining trait as significant as a weapon choice isn't easily represented. Add it to the list of problematic codex features.
I enjoy converting and it's a great impetus for it, but not everyone does. While it leaves things to the imagination the cooperative element of the game has always stressed physical representation of the rules.
GW is a victim of its success with CSM because they have established a number of characterful aesthetics with our army which unfortunately makes it difficult for the player to stress one for the sake of visual consistency.
That doesn't get them off the hook though. They should be trying to make CSM a better force. All they can do though is give us unimaginative Cultists and Dinobots.
I've read over this entire thread and at this point I see what everyone wants. I've played CSM in the past as well SM currently. The problem that I see with both of these codices is that Codex CSM is really Codex Black Legion (Black Legion is just Chaos Undivided like how you have to play CSM to be competitive (Furthermore on that, Supplement Black Legion just makes it so you don't always have to have Abbadon for Chosen troops.)) While Codex SM is really just Codex Ultramarines (Thankfully the chapter tactics made it so that you could play and feel somewhat like you're playing a specific chapter. (Supplement Iron Hands actually makes it feel like I'm playing an Iron hands army rather than Ultramarines in black.)).
These things being said, Codex SM really is pretty much just Codex Ultramarines. Roughly half of the named HQs are all Ultramarines, furthermore, any character upgrade (Sergeant Tellion and Tank ace what's his face (glorified techmarine that gets screwed if his tank dies.)) are also Ultramarines.
I agree with an earlier post that Codex CSM should be split up into several different codices for more playability and fluff purposes. But in that regard, IG are in the same boat, they should have a codex for each regiment. However when that happens the game is then overpopulated with different flavors of the same armies.
Perhaps if Forgeworld was more accessible and less expensive then perhaps that would solve many of our problems. Especially if many of their rules were updated for use in 40k.
Harukae wrote: I've read over this entire thread and at this point I see what everyone wants. I've played CSM in the past as well SM currently. The problem that I see with both of these codices is that Codex CSM is really Codex Black Legion (Black Legion is just Chaos Undivided like how you have to play CSM to be competitive (Furthermore on that, Supplement Black Legion just makes it so you don't always have to have Abbadon for Chosen troops.)) While Codex SM is really just Codex Ultramarines (Thankfully the chapter tactics made it so that you could play and feel somewhat like you're playing a specific chapter. (Supplement Iron Hands actually makes it feel like I'm playing an Iron hands army rather than Ultramarines in black.)).
These things being said, Codex SM really is pretty much just Codex Ultramarines. Roughly half of the named HQs are all Ultramarines, furthermore, any character upgrade (Sergeant Tellion and Tank ace what's his face (glorified techmarine that gets screwed if his tank dies.)) are also Ultramarines.
I agree with an earlier post that Codex CSM should be split up into several different codices for more playability and fluff purposes. But in that regard, IG are in the same boat, they should have a codex for each regiment. However when that happens the game is then overpopulated with different flavors of the same armies.
Perhaps if Forgeworld was more accessible and less expensive then perhaps that would solve many of our problems. Especially if many of their rules were updated for use in 40k.
for us aussies FW is the same price as GW, in some cases cheaper... sounds crazy but thats how it is.
also as to its lack of accessibility thats no excuse any more, you have the internet you buy it like most other things.
and i think i said it earlier in the thread, each of the sub-factions within armies need their own books. or just do them like the HH series, they work really well, sure the SM book or the CSM one would be a tome rather than 90 pages, but guess what. you could then put all the SM in one book CSM + Daemons in another etc etc and you are limiting the number of actual books, whilst increasing the varieties within them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That doesn't get them off the hook though. They should be trying to make CSM a better force. All they can do though is give us unimaginative Cultists and Dinobots.
I agree. Those were just the least we should have got to supplement what we had. Much of what FW has done, though limited, is far more interesting. I think most chaos players could have come up with something more original than we got.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That doesn't get them off the hook though. They should be trying to make CSM a better force. All they can do though is give us unimaginative Cultists and Dinobots.
Don't forget only in single pose snapfit models either in the box or starter kits with only 2 special/heavy weapon selections total, an option between CCW and guns (which you don't get to pick when building), and the shotgun and sorts which, although not really good, can only be gained if you buy the starter force
It actually saddens me. If not for that, I could have kit bashed with them rather well for some chaotic guard that fit the aesthetics already
Harukae wrote: I've read over this entire thread and at this point I see what everyone wants. I've played CSM in the past as well SM currently. The problem that I see with both of these codices is that Codex CSM is really Codex Black Legion (Black Legion is just Chaos Undivided like how you have to play CSM to be competitive (Furthermore on that, Supplement Black Legion just makes it so you don't always have to have Abbadon for Chosen troops.)) While Codex SM is really just Codex Ultramarines (Thankfully the chapter tactics made it so that you could play and feel somewhat like you're playing a specific chapter. (Supplement Iron Hands actually makes it feel like I'm playing an Iron hands army rather than Ultramarines in black.)).
These things being said, Codex SM really is pretty much just Codex Ultramarines. Roughly half of the named HQs are all Ultramarines, furthermore, any character upgrade (Sergeant Tellion and Tank ace what's his face (glorified techmarine that gets screwed if his tank dies.)) are also Ultramarines.
I agree with an earlier post that Codex CSM should be split up into several different codices for more playability and fluff purposes. But in that regard, IG are in the same boat, they should have a codex for each regiment. However when that happens the game is then overpopulated with different flavors of the same armies.
Perhaps if Forgeworld was more accessible and less expensive then perhaps that would solve many of our problems. Especially if many of their rules were updated for use in 40k.
I'd be happy if each of the four Gods had an equivalent to Chapter Tactics that were based on the god you've chosen. If you have marks from more than one god, you have to choose the Undivided tactics, otherwise you choose the one your god gives you. Undivided should be markedly weaker, and let's be fair, the Nurgle one shouldn't be too fantastic either.
But hey, I thought I heard rumours this was coming? That we were gonna get mono-god supplements?
If each of the four gods had that, wouldn't that force your army to be mono-god?-How else could an army wide rule like that be applied?
Mono-god is something GW would rather not see, since if they did it fluffy it would prohibit certain units being taken and their mind set is to prohibit nothing since it effects sales.
I think we're far more likely to see something more generic like Renegade tactics before we see any sort of mono-god tactics.
aka_mythos wrote: If each of the four gods had that, wouldn't that force your army to be mono-god?-How else could an army wide rule like that be applied?
Mono-god is something GW would rather not see, since if they did it fluffy it would prohibit certain units being taken and their mind set is to prohibit nothing since it effects sales.
I think we're far more likely to see something more generic like Renegade tactics before we see any sort of mono-god tactics.
Yes, it would. There are a lot of us that already do mono-god, because we like the aesthetic and the purity. Would be nice if we got a little boost for gimping ourselves.
I've recently started a mono-Tzeentch army, with everything in 1k sons theme, because I always loved it and decided it was time.
My friend has a mono-Nurgle army, but that's actually really viable.
I don't quite understand your post. My whole post was "I'd like to be rewarded for going mono-God since it's clearly uncompetitive." and you're like "but wouldn't that make you have to be mono-God to get the bonus?"
Yes it would.
I also mentioned that there should be a "tactic" for Chaos Undivided, which is the one you'd get since you cannot fathom why anyone would do mono-God.
Mono-God in CSM hardly restricts any models from being used (ie sales) at all. The only things you can't take are the elite God-specific units like 1k Sons. Everything else is the same model with a different mark.
StarTrotter wrote: Don't forget only in single pose snapfit models either in the box or starter kits with only 2 special/heavy weapon selections total, an option between CCW and guns (which you don't get to pick when building), and the shotgun and sorts which, although not really good, can only be gained if you buy the starter force
It actually saddens me. If not for that, I could have kit bashed with them rather well for some chaotic guard that fit the aesthetics already
Which means one of two things:
1. The Cultists are a "one-and-done" kit. They're in the starter kit, their rules match the 4 model options exactly (as you said, flamer or stubber, HTH weapons or Shotgun), and once that starter kit goes to the great Dreadfleet landfill in the sky so to will the Cultist option vanish from the next Codex. 2. The Cultists will get a revamp in the next Chaos Codex, with a full 10-man 5-man (for the cost of 10) box, and a new Codex entry in the new Codex giving them more options.
I foresee the path of lease resistance, but it'd be nice to be wrong.
GW has allowed for mono-god armies but they aren't endorsing them. They prefer a blended god army because you end up buying more of their new shiny toys. Maybe it's a way outdated perception but I think GW feels that type of army is generally exclusionary to certain units and they'd rather players not exclude anything. The fact that nearly everything can be god dedicated is proof they want to steer away from the older flavorful notions that included trade-offs. I think a different approach than "cram it in the codex" allows more to be done with the big 4 god armies. Leave it out of the codex because we know there is enough material and substance there for each to stand on its own, expanding upon what that god-dedicated army is and justifying itself. While GW might never stomach that many chaos codices, supplements are easier for them to.
aka_mythos wrote: If each of the four gods had that, wouldn't that force your army to be mono-god?-How else could an army wide rule like that be applied?
Mono-god is something GW would rather not see, since if they did it fluffy it would prohibit certain units being taken and their mind set is to prohibit nothing since it effects sales.
I think we're far more likely to see something more generic like Renegade tactics before we see any sort of mono-god tactics.
Yes, it would. There are a lot of us that already do mono-god, because we like the aesthetic and the purity. Would be nice if we got a little boost for gimping ourselves.
I've recently started a mono-Tzeentch army, with everything in 1k sons theme, because I always loved it and decided it was time.
My friend has a mono-Nurgle army, but that's actually really viable.
I don't quite understand your post. My whole post was "I'd like to be rewarded for going mono-God since it's clearly uncompetitive." and you're like "but wouldn't that make you have to be mono-God to get the bonus?"
Yes it would.
I also mentioned that there should be a "tactic" for Chaos Undivided, which is the one you'd get since you cannot fathom why anyone would do mono-God.
Mono-God in CSM hardly restricts any models from being used (ie sales) at all. The only things you can't take are the elite God-specific units like 1k Sons. Everything else is the same model with a different mark.
I didn't say I was opposed to mono-god builds, I just think they're best served in supplement form. I think the codex has largely slanted toward undivided armies blending god choices. There is a predisposition to Slaanesh and Nurgle armies because they're core isn't broken but that isn't really proof they work. At its core is the fact that if you build the codex around representing mono-god even if represent undivided the focus is narrowing to the interpretation of chaos. I think a codex should emphasize the undivided legions and supplements should allow better for the unique flavors of mono-god armies. The subcompatmentalizing of a supplement more easily allows for choices and rules that might otherwise be too much. For example, in a supplement the old rule allowing free aspiring champions for units with sacred number sized units fits more easily... This might work if it were the only rule for mono-god builds, but I'd like to see more, like vehicles with sonic weapons, other rubric units, or units of brezerkers on juggernauts... When you include everything their should be it pulls the book in too many directions with options the majority of players can't use. It's why the present notion of mono-god is paper thin and thematically limited without substantive contribution to the notion of chaos.
I played mono god slaanesh and I would love to see more to promote mono-god builds. Maybe my hangup is because I feel it's kinda repugnant to consider this codex's builds as dedicated to a chaos god when I think that dedication should mean more than what a codex that needs to provide 10 or 11 different flavors can support. Part of it was that I feel the thematic representation of a mono-god build is presently diluted, when nothing is excluded and little is special. I think once you open up CSM to god dedicated supplements it expands on chaos in a way one or two pages of a crowded codex can't and allows the dedication of non-cult units to more fundamentally alter their composition, options, and play style.
Wasn't asking for that long harangue of things. Was asking for an equivalent to Chapter tactics, which the SM codex has proven is a concept that works.
The tactics would force you to choose specific marks. That's all. Short and easy.
Wasn't asking for that long harangue of things. Was asking for an equivalent to Chapter tactics, which the SM codex has proven is a concept that works.
The tactics would force you to choose specific marks. That's all. Short and easy.
I don't understand your need for passive aggressive condescension.
I understand you want god focused chapter tactics. I get it. I paraphrase you, that you want a system that rewards tactically inefficient builds for their thematics. Maybe they're inefficient because GW doesn't really want you to make them. Maybe it's a problem with GW but I don't think they want chaos defined by mono-god builds and system that gives you 5 choices where 4/5ths are mono-god builds is certainly pushing that opposite agenda.
I want mono-god builds, I really do; I just see them as needing more than a very thin characterization and limited rule set to do them justice.
Chaos undivided has many flavors and they need to be more than just the weak representation they get. Ina single codex an emphasis on mono-god builds only further weakens their presence. The majority of legions and renegades are not mono-god.
I'm all for having a chapter tactics type rule set, but it shouldn't involve the gods. Those thematic armies deserve more, not the minimum.
As unhappy as some would be, between Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and the various renegades there is enough for a book already. Is it so wrong to say that mono-god armies following the template of the mono-god legions should be supported in their own expanded supplement where they can get the attention they deserve?
I'm just going to pause to say I doubt that GW is specifically planning things to be inefficient so you won't buy them. IT seems rather counterintuitive for sales. Why would they release Warp Talons but then make them bad? Does that show some evil scheme? Why is Tzeentch and Khorne so bad in CSM but Tzeentch (at least used to be) very prone to cheese in CD? I think it's them just derping around a bit too much.
That and GW has really contradictory motives. I found it hilarious really. Scanning through the book, they went on about legions existing no longer yet they would mention things such as the Blood Tide that was Word Bearers.
Really nothing is perfect to be represented. The closest you can get to a real proper representation is a recently fallen SM force using the SM codex. Past that, I believe the codex is guilty of simply trying to represent too much at once. Even the renegades and legions are too much of a mix, clashing together. Then you get oddities such as talking about warbands but then all but one hq are the veterans from times long ago.
I really wish supplements were so much more. Even if they were restricted to online to minimize losses, think of the possible rules they could have made to create truly distinct forces. It'd solve the woes of so many armies that are underrepresented yet are less likely to make sales.
I think that thematically and visually, there is enough to adequately represent the various flavours of the Legions.
The issue is, it often comes at the expense of gameplay, and so, once again, we return to the continual bugbear with all things 40K - balance.
Sure, Legion Terminators etc would be nice additions, but if a player could represent a 1K Sons or Emperors Children warband on the tabletop without them, and still have a playable force with a few list options, I don't expect the call for them would be as strong as it is.
I actually think transposing the 30K Legion rules and units into 40K, and using a little restraint with some of the wackier wargear options and unit choices is about the best, most fluffy and playable way of doing CSM right now, just a shame players won't necessarily always be playing in an environment where that is possible.
In this hobby I am a pure collector and my faction is Chaos Space Marines. I also have several proto-armies from Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000.
My Chaos Space Marine Army is roughly 32,000 points and is about 1/3rd complete, however and i'll give GW credit for giving us some pretty cool stuff, but that said, I really don't care about where I get my get my God Specific units such as 3rd party manufacturers.
Why, because I ain't gonna be playing in a GW store, with 3rd party Khornate, Nurgle, Slaaneshii and Tzeentchian troops, that will eventually fill out my units, unless GW make God specific plastic troops, i'll go to others to do the job.
However it does not matter with Chaos, just imagine how utterly frustrating it must be to be a Sisters of Battle player, those poor buggers have ignored for decades.
Also there is the matter of conversion, if you are creative you can convert anything, at the mo' I am converting a Space Marine Champion into a Dark Apostle, and it looks good.
Some however are just lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver plate.
Achaylus72 wrote: In this hobby I am a pure collector and my faction is Chaos Space Marines. I also have several proto-armies from Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000.
My Chaos Space Marine Army is roughly 32,000 points and is about 1/3rd complete, however and i'll give GW credit for giving us some pretty cool stuff, but that said, I really don't care about where I get my get my God Specific units such as 3rd party manufacturers.
Why, because I ain't gonna be playing in a GW store, with 3rd party Khornate, Nurgle, Slaaneshii and Tzeentchian troops, that will eventually fill out my units, unless GW make God specific plastic troops, i'll go to others to do the job.
However it does not matter with Chaos, just imagine how utterly frustrating it must be to be a Sisters of Battle player, those poor buggers have ignored for decades.
Also there is the matter of conversion, if you are creative you can convert anything, at the mo' I am converting a Space Marine Champion into a Dark Apostle, and it looks good.
Some however are just lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver plate.
That they have, but their role is filled by Tzeentch Chaos Marines since 3E, at least Sisters have been Viable compared to Thousand Sons!
azreal13 wrote: I think that thematically and visually, there is enough to adequately represent the various flavours of the Legions.
The issue is, it often comes at the expense of gameplay, and so, once again, we return to the continual bugbear with all things 40K - balance.
Sure, Legion Terminators etc would be nice additions, but if a player could represent a 1K Sons or Emperors Children warband on the tabletop without them, and still have a playable force with a few list options, I don't expect the call for them would be as strong as it is.
I actually think transposing the 30K Legion rules and units into 40K, and using a little restraint with some of the wackier wargear options and unit choices is about the best, most fluffy and playable way of doing CSM right now, just a shame players won't necessarily always be playing in an environment where that is possible.
I think one of the best things FW has managed to do is introduce some of these preheresy units with their distinct character that have clear pre-chaos slants. Take Destroyer squads... it is so easy to imagine Chaos fielding another jump pack units in that vein, replacing rad missiles and phosphox bombs for something produced in the eye of terror. That's before you even touch on any of the legion specific units. I'm hoping as the heresy era books move on to late heresy, FW will have more units its willing to carry over into 40k like they did with some of the Relic vehicles in the IA updates.
The point I made about the iconography still holds, and it is a bigger deal since this hobby seems to be full of people who are willing to paint a cadian red and call him a vostroyan.
Never the less I'll address it.
