What the feth is with the fluff for Death Corps of Krieg...
I mean... I get the part they're supposed to be BADASS
but in all honesty, they're just human...
in RL they've tried to create soldiers like DCoK... and it ended... badly.. these guys weren't even functioning humans never-the-less functioning soldiers...
Not only that.. But the original Krieg citizens that were hardened up by killing their own families and people.. they're all dead..
Yeah... you heard me...
DEAD... yeah that's right D E A D
It's been a while and the only troops they have to replenish their ranks are conscripts.. and well... randoms held at gun point to go from slobs to super-soldiers... that's worked well in the past... right??
Seriously Adeptus Astartes get taken away (mostly voluntarily albeit mind-washed) from pre-pubescence/pubescence and re-written from a genetic level.. mechanically mind-wiped/ rewritten..
and they don't get HALF the hard-core fluff that DCoK get....WHAT THE FETH
Isn't all of their fluff pretty much, we went in with a 50 million guys to save a planet of 10 billion citizens. When it is over, we have lost 45 million. 9.5 billion civilians dead. All cities leveled. Planet no longer suited for life, but the enemy is dead so victory. In most of the fluff all the guard forces are seen as pretty tough, but they always take a lot of deaths. DKOK especially practically use the Zap Brannigan manual for warfare.
With Space Marines, its a few guys take on an army and break their backs. Guard mops up and drinks tea. I don't see how that makes DKOK > SM
nedTCM wrote: Isn't all of their fluff pretty much, we went in with a 50 million guys to save a planet of 10 billion citizens. When it is over, we have lost 45 million. 9.5 billion civilians dead. All cities leveled. Planet no longer suited for life, but the enemy is dead so victory. In most of the fluff all the guard forces are seen as pretty tough, but they always take a lot of deaths. DKOK especially practically use the Zap Brannigan manual for warfare.
With Space Marines, its a few guys take on an army and break their backs. Guard mops up and drinks tea. I don't see how that makes DKOK > SM
you are mistaken, guard or a pdf gets into serious dung, starts to solve the situation and the sm show up and take all the credit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tea is optional and is hard to drink when being killed.
Furyou Miko wrote: Because the Marines are written for children and the DKoK are written for adults.
I'd consider it the opposite because a small child can write the DKOK, given that they lack any character at all. Meanwhile Astartes can have actual emotion put into them for a grabbing story, even center it on a trashuman/posthuman message. The DKOK however are simply a clone army with no character, no emotion, and just, well nothing. The only good stories about the DKOK don't even focus on the DKOK, the DKOK are used as a setting, not characters. That one story where they fought the Necrons and got stomped comes to mind.
But yeah, DKOK don't even work, they're less bloody feasible than Space Marines simply because emotionally dead/broken people make for a gakky army.
I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post
Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.
They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.
I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.
Tbh I think that space marines are a much better 'character' than the DKoK are. Everything about the kriegies is just seeming like a 12 year old would write it, and although SM are no way balanced and varied characters, at least there's reason for alteration between individual SMs of the same chapter to have vastly differing personalities, with DK it's pretty much Hard-Hardarse-Hardcore as the varients of personality. They'd make a fabulous setting, but as characters or as a standalone theme, the WW1 futility style thinking would wear a bit thin (and this is coming from a ww1 poetry nerd)
Vaktathi wrote: I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post
Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.
They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.
I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.
Except they're literally all the same person. The DKOK are just as bad as the Tyranids, only I've actually seen genestealers who showed more emotion and character than a Krieger, who are little more than boring robots.
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: What the feth is with the fluff for Death Corps of Krieg...
I mean... I get the part they're supposed to be BADASS
but in all honesty, they're just human...
in RL they've tried to create soldiers like DCoK... and it ended... badly.. these guys weren't even functioning humans never-the-less functioning soldiers...
Not only that.. But the original Krieg citizens that were hardened up by killing their own families and people.. they're all dead..
Yeah... you heard me...
DEAD... yeah that's right D E A D
It's been a while and the only troops they have to replenish their ranks are conscripts.. and well... randoms held at gun point to go from slobs to super-soldiers... that's worked well in the past... right??
Seriously Adeptus Astartes get taken away (mostly voluntarily albeit mind-washed) from pre-pubescence/pubescence and re-written from a genetic level.. mechanically mind-wiped/ rewritten..
and they don't get HALF the hard-core fluff that DCoK get....WHAT THE FETH
They're not.
Ignore the incredibly petty and jealous Marine haters in this thread.
Space Marines on average are better in every objective way than the Death Korps.
Vaktathi wrote: I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post
Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.
They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.
I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.
Except they're literally all the same person. The DKOK are just as bad as the Tyranids, only I've actually seen genestealers who showed more emotion and character than a Krieger, who are little more than boring robots.
That's kinda the point. They're not supposed to have individual character. Everything about them is supposed to be from the collective whole, not from the individual. Their fluff goes into that, hence why individual awards for bravery and whatnot aren't really a thing amongst the DKoK. Individually they are faceless cogs, it's their nature as a collective that has character and is interesting.
They're the ultimate expression of the 40k universe as every single rulebook has introduced it.
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.
They have a place, when you need unyielding troops there perfect, they have a iron will, they will not retreat, they can lose 90% of men and still advance, if the line must be held they will hold or die in the attempt.
May not be best for some tasks but they excel in others like seige and massed assults on positions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I challenge you to find anything more grim dark than the death korps.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.
You say "net loss" like it's a bad thing. The Death Korps are *looking* to die. They do not want to live. They are looking to die fighting the Emperor's enemies. The martyr's death pays the Emperor back, in a tiny little bit, for the sins of their ancestors.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.
They have a place, when you need unyielding troops there perfect, they have a iron will, they will not retreat, they can lose 90% of men and still advance, if the line must be held they will hold or die in the attempt.
May not be best for some tasks but they excel in others like seige and massed assults on positions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I challenge you to find anything more grim dark than the death korps.
The name is a sign on it's a own.
Anything Lovecraft. DKOK are just meh.
Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.
Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.
Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.
Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.
You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.
They're basically just weaker, dumber Black Templars.
Didn't these guys fuckup the siege of Vraks getting beat up by a poorly organized undermanned militia only to be saved by the Space Marines?
The millions strong militia in a fortified citadel that had never been breached in thousands of years (and which no SM chapter would agree to aid in attacking) with enough equipment, weapon, and vehicle stores to equip hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments, that also had Alpha Legion support.
Eventually the DA's show up years after the war began and destroyed the spaceport many miles from the major frontlines or the Citadel itself, promptly lost a third of their chapter and then left. Later the Red Scorpions showed up to hold and stabilize a breach in the enemy line long enough for the IG to push through. Then later you had Titans and Traitor Titans and lots of CSM's and eventually Daemons show up.
I don't think the DKoK are necessarily dumber than the Templars. At least they have the sense to use artillery and ranged weaponry over just running things.
I just question why they keep giving the Korps tanks. They don't value their lives in the least and thus they make for poor tankers. They'll put their vehicles in unnecessary risk resulting in high losses.
If you say so, their Lexi article (lengthy as it is) doesn't mention off-world support.
Lexicanum wrote:During the rebellion on Krieg the increasingly under-equipped militia began to create their own combat vehicles, often variants of civilian vehicles which were heavily modified. This led to the creation of many unique vehicles such the Götterdämmerung, the Blitzen, the Bruennhilde, the Siegfried and the Ragnarok. Since the war's conclusion these vehicles have continued to serve in limited fashion in other conflicts, such as the Baran War.[6]
For the most part Death Korps siege and armoured regiments make use of the Leman Russ Battle Tank and its variants, including the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Executioner, Conqueror, Eradicator, Punisher and Annihilator, with preference towards siege tanks such as the Demolisher and Thunderer. Even the Destroyer is used by Krieg units. These tanks are often heavily modified so as to better survive the toxic, trench-crossed battlefield, typically with Dozer Blades, trench rails, and additional filters to prevent the poisonous atmosphere from affecting the crew or engine[2e]
Siege regiments do not normally use the ubiquitous Chimera for transport, instead preferring the Gorgon to transport infantry across no-man's land when necessary, while command and grenadier squads often use the Centaur.[2c] Hades Breaching Drills are also used to circumvent trench lines. However, other formations such as armoured regiments will employ the Chimera and its variants the Salamander Command and Salamander Scout, along with the Sentinel.[7] Other vehicles used by Death Korps regiments of all types include the Hydra, Hellhound and Cyclops, while the Atlas and Trojan provide noncombat support. Super-heavy support includes the Malcador and Macharius and their variants, plus the Baneblade, Shadowsword, Stormsword, and Stormblade and the rare Minotaur.[8]
Psienesis wrote: Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.
Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.
Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.
You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.
How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?
A somewhat serious question. Im also one of those who dislike the Death Corps for many reasons. Of all the amazing possibilities they had with WW1 themes they chose that horrid backstory? Just seems like wasted potential. But thats my opinion. (obviously).
How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?
Because getting shot by your Commissar for failure to obey orders is not a martyr's death. It really is that simple.
The DKOK is highly, highly trained. They, like Cadians, begin training for the Guard from birth. They supply the IG with fifty million soldiers a year.
How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?
Because getting shot by your Commissar for failure to obey orders is not a martyr's death. It really is that simple.
The DKOK is highly, highly trained. They, like Cadians, begin training for the Guard from birth. They supply the IG with fifty million soldiers a year.
Ignoring the stupidly high amount of soldiers a year, the commissar thing makes sense. Should have thought it through properly...
"Lucius is a Forge World and is home to the Legio Astorum Titan Legion (AKA the "Warp Runners"). It also is the place of origin of the Macharius-class super-heavy battle tank .The Lucius forges supply weapons and equipment to neighbouring Krieg, for the many Death Korps regiments raised on that planet. Lucius's forge is also well-known for producing the Lucius Pattern Warhound Scout Titan and Lucius Pattern Drop Pod".
"Lucius is a Forge World and is home to the Legio Astorum Titan Legion (AKA the "Warp Runners"). It also is the place of origin of the Macharius-class super-heavy battle tank .The Lucius forges supply weapons and equipment to neighbouring Krieg, for the many Death Korps regiments raised on that planet. Lucius's forge is also well-known for producing the Lucius Pattern Warhound Scout Titan and Lucius Pattern Drop Pod".
I couldn't find that under the name you originally provided, and wasn't going to go wiki-diving. That takes far too long. At any rate, though, it would seem that supplying the DKOK is part and parcel of Lucius' tithe, so that's why "they" keep giving the Death Korps more tanks.
I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.
"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!
... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.
"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!
... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.
They didn't lose because their tactics are lacking. They lose because they got screwed over by their allies.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm pretty sure the Elysians are a subtle statement on Games Workshop's opinion regarding the Peregrine-esque fantasy of 40K being a gritty, realistic war sim.
"Oh, you want the Imperial Guard to fight like modern, sensible elite soldiers using real-world modern tactics? Alright here ya go, we present the Elysians!
... now watch them get killed to a man over and over again while the World War 1 expy's and Space Marines mindlessly charge their way across open fields to victory.
Actually the Cadians are fairly competent as well. Although they bear more similarity to WWII Allied infantry on the west.
They didn't lose because their tactics are lacking. They lose because they got screwed over by their allies.
In most cases, the Elysians don't lose... they just fail to have any survivors. What they do is drop into enemy territory and blow up factories, power supplies, and other critical infrastructure to enable the rest of the military forces present to proceed with the operation. They're often very successful in this... but few, if any, of their troops return to make a second drop.
There highly trained troops, all there planet knows is war, breeding and training to fight. It's tithe is men, only men, but some of the guards best regiments.
Its guardsmen are unbending, and unlike most do not need comisars to keep them advancing under hevey fire.
Cadians, catchans and others are some of the best troops the guard has, a massive step above the penal legions or the conscripts.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1
Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..
Psienesis wrote: Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.
Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.
Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.
You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.
Cosmicism is the ultimate grimdark. The DKOK can still achieve something. In Lovecraft you're not even a bug like you are in 40K, as a swarm of ants can still achieve something. In Lovecraft you're an amoeba to a life form the size of a sun. There is no reason to exist, all ends in ignoble death. Even the Heroes of Lovecraft, those rare persons who have the guts to question the unknown, die horrible, horrible deaths. Or they're driven insane and doomed to spend the rest of their lives in an asylum as everyone thinks them no more than an insane freak preaching about the apocalypse to never come. Then they commit suicide.
Humans in 40K, even the Death Korps, can still gain notability and [i]mean something. Lovecraft however is Nihilism.
jhe90 wrote: There highly trained troops, all there planet knows is war, breeding and training to fight. It's tithe is men, only men, but some of the guards best regiments.
Its guardsmen are unbending, and unlike most do not need comisars to keep them advancing under hevey fire.
Cadians, catchans and others are some of the best troops the guard has, a massive step above the penal legions or the conscripts.
All their planet knows is death... As stated in the original post.. Every last Krieger is dead... The only thing left is their name
Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1
Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..
True the writes might not know much about true war, but I doubt you do either. "Switching" off emotion is what happens in war.
And the DKoK have Emotion, it's Hate. and the fear of not redeeming themselves in the eyes of the emperor.
Also, in IA12 the DKoK assault brigade has a rule for Tanks with "Special" paint job. it allows a unit to re-roll leadership tests.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not grimdark... That's 2D plot.. Real grimdark would be how half the Krieg conscripts blow they're own heads off because they couldn't take the outloud all night sobbing of the quarter that's still alive but melted from chemical attacks, after the first quarter got killed by the now lynched commisar for not charging into the canons of the nearest tank... Citing - WW1
Seriously the part that annoys me most of Krieg is that there are people and writers who no so little of war and the human condition that they actually think humans can just magically switch off emotions and walk to their death by the thousands cause two or three commissars said so... That's not grimdark.. That's ignorance..
People can and do switch off emotions as soldiers. For many, it's a survival mechanism. As they say, "it is the hard heart that kills". The Kreigsmen who would blow their own heads off are the ones that don't survive childhood. Guard Basic Training for Kreigsmen begins at birth, and never, ever ends. You still don't seem to grasp the basic function of the Commissars in the Death Korps. He would not need to tell them to make a frontal assault against a line of tanks, he would have to tell them not to! That is the function of the Commissars in the Death Korps... to shape and direct their fanaticism into a strategically and tactically useful form.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...
You keep missing the point that martyrdom is the GOAL of every DKoK soldier. They aren't modern soldiers in gas masks, they're religious zealots who march into battle with absolute confidence that an honorable death in service to the Emperor is the key to eternal glory. Are there bullets to eat? Awesome, time to atone for the sins of our fathers and take the enemy with us!
I always got the sense that the DKK lost just as much as they gain through their upbringing. They have no fear but they also have no sense of self preservation. They take high causualties and seem incapable of anyuthing other than meat grinder tactics. They may also be clones and may be affected by the radiation on their homeworld. Their almost to the Imperial guard what the world eaters were to the Legions, dangerous but flawed and broken.
The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.
The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.
The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.
The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.
Maybe to you, but there is no true requirement for any of this.
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them.
For you maybe.
For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.
Again...let's look at how the game chooses to open itself to the player/reader.
"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war."
"There is no time for peace. No respite. No forgiveness. There is only war!"
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
The DKoK would seem to be a pretty spot on army for the game universe it looks like...
The DKoK aren't interesting on a personal level (aside from the myriad of impressive ways they martyr themselves), they're not supposed to be, they're supposed to be interesting as a faction, as the terrible reflection of what the universe has done to mankind in its eternal struggle for survival. The DKoK fight and die to repay their ancestors betrayal of that struggle, willingly sacrifice themselves such as to provide the greatest possible value to the Imperium's war machine without hesitation or regret to atone for the previous betrayal of that struggle.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.
The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.
Remember, It's your opinion, and your opinion ≠ everyone else.
For some people, Including myself DKoK is the best IG army out there. What some people this is boring others find entertaining. We are all different
Furyou Miko wrote: The Kriegers are emotionally broken, barely functioning zombies. Thats the whole point. They are not sound of mind or healthy of thought.
The grimdark aspect arises not from the fact that they're dead men walking. The reason the Death Korps of Krieg are grimdark is because this is seen as a desirable outcome in-universe.
Except the Grimdark falls flat and becomes Grimderp because the Korpsmen aren't even really human. There's no reason to care about them, no reason to like them. For there to be grimdark, there has to be a reason why the reader cares about them from the lowly view of a human. The Grimdark comes from Cosmicism with everyone's fight being completely in vain because either Chaos, Tyranids, or C'tan are going to destroy the galaxy/universe. There's no point to even fighting, everyone might as well simply put a bullet in their head and call it day. The Kriegers are no different than Pseudo Nihilists, hence them being lame.
Remember, It's your opinion, and your opinion ≠ everyone else.
For some people, Including myself DKoK is the best IG army out there. What some people this is boring others find entertaining. We are all different
Except it isn't entertaining, or at least by the definition of the majority. Make a movie off the Death Korps and I almost would garuntee it would get panned across the board for having no tension. With the Korpsmen there is no story, or at least something that could not be written by a young child given that the Death Korps are little more than cardboard cutouts in the shape of people. A story requires a buildup and a climax, something I'm sure your English teacher taught you at some point, there needs to be conflict. With the Korpsmen there is no conflict. There is no buildup. Hell there's nothing really, hence there being no story. The only way the Death Korps become a story is by being a setting, not a character. Commisairs bounce their heads off the near soulless husks that are the Korps, or a city revolts over their emotionless, blind attitude to warfare. Dead Men Walking is a good example of this, DKOK aren't characters. They're just a setting.
And that's all fine. You don't need to relate to them on a personal level to find the faction to be an interesting facet of the game universe.
Dead Men Walking had probably what is my favorite "40k" moment ever, where the Korps is fighting the Necrons and the meltagunners let of a salvo, but don't have enough time to fire again before Necrons reach their positions, and, knowing this, the non-melta equipped DK guardsmen charge the Necrons with bayonets to give them enough time to recharge and fire again without any hesitation or instruction, knowing full well they'll die when their comrade's melta guns recharge and are fired into the Necron's phalanx.
That section just illustrated the 40k universe so perfectly it was beautiful.
The Tyranids aren't relatable either, but that doesn't mean they can't be an interesting and awesome faction either.
Vaktathi wrote: And that's all fine. You don't need to relate to them on a personal level to find the faction to be an interesting facet of the game universe.
Dead Men Walking had probably what is my favorite "40k" moment ever, where the Korps is fighting the Necrons and the meltagunners let of a salvo, but don't have enough time to fire again before Necrons reach their positions, and, knowing this, the non-melta equipped DK guardsmen charge the Necrons with bayonets to give them enough time to recharge and fire again without any hesitation or instruction, knowing full well they'll die when their comrade's melta guns recharge and are fired into the Necron's phalanx.
That section just illustrated the 40k universe so perfectly it was beautiful.
The Tyranids aren't relatable either, but that doesn't mean they can't be an interesting and awesome faction either.
I was going to quote that scene from that book, but you beat me to it.
Another scene from Dead Men Walking is when the Commissar and the young Grenadier are talking, the Boy (18 year old) opens up a small amount.. just enough to let the reader see that the DKoK have some emotion.
The DKoK are pretty much the only Imperial Army faction I would ever consider running. The fluff behind them combined with the aesthetic make for a near irresistable. Better than the Space Marines? No. Not in a practical sense. They are not without appeal, however, and no one would be remiss in using them as their faction or writing stories about them.
Cosmicism isn't the only approach to the setting, either. Its one facet of the darkness the makes up 40K. Fatalsim, nihilism, pessimism, false optimism, even legitimate hope; all of these things and more comprise and add to the setting. Reducing it to just one of its parts seems unreasonably limiting.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: Expecting a site commissar not to get lynched when it's eat bullets or shoot the Commissar.. I mean he doesn't even have enough ammo to kill a whole squad...
You keep missing the point that martyrdom is the GOAL of every DKoK soldier. They aren't modern soldiers in gas masks, they're religious zealots who march into battle with absolute confidence that an honorable death in service to the Emperor is the key to eternal glory. Are there bullets to eat? Awesome, time to atone for the sins of our fathers and take the enemy with us!
But if it's fanatical Space Marines it's somehow "immersion-breaking" and "dumb, bald, screaming men" and needs to get the feth out of your vision of 40k. Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?
This has been discussed at length within the past week or so.
It's because Imperial Guard fans tend to have penis envy regarding Space Marines. By admission of some of the members on this very board, the amount of fans Space Marines have makes Guard fanboys mad jelly.
As an IG fan myself (Elysians forever m8!), I don't really have a problem with Space Marines. The most popular black library novel before the HH series exploded was Gaunt's Ghosts, which was all about Guardsmen running around with Space Marine level plot-armor doing cool things and soaking up the glory. Between Imperial Armor and the BL I feel that the Guard get more than enough credit for their exploits.
BlaxicanX wrote: This has been discussed at length within the past week or so.
It's because Imperial Guard fans tend to have penis envy regarding Space Marines. By admission of some of the members on this very board, the amount of fans Space Marines have makesGuard fanboys mad jelly.
As an IG fan myself (Elysians forever m8!), I don't really have a problem with Space Marines. The most popular black library novel before the HH series exploded was Gaunt's Ghosts, which was all about Guardsmen running around with Space Marine level plot-armor doing cool things and soaking up the glory. Between Imperial Armor and the BL I feel that the Guard get more than enough credit for their exploits.
Actually it's not so much that, his view is that 40k should be far more realistic overall, no nids, no necrons, just modern warfare in a futuristic setting.
Pretty normal for ww1 trench's, bayonet charges, barage, armour acting more staticly and basicly a meat grinder of a war,
Man chewed up by the mechanical machines of war and shown how frail humans truely are.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?
Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.
That whole “super-stuff” really draws the focus away from dehumanization. To make a culinary comparison, it is like making pasta with a good tomato sauce, and then pouring a ton of ketchup over it. You will just taste the ketchup and it will taste cheap.
This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?
Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.
I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?
Spoiler- There is no objective argument you can make that would say otherwise.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Kriegsman shredding a tank with his bare hands, or surviving being stepped on by a titan? Because there are examples of both those events for the marines. I did not choose them at random.
Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.
Tannhauser42 wrote: This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?
FW has been somewhat intentionally vague on that, but they do give hints about something called a "Vitae Womb" and hint at other things that supposedly are usually frowned on by Imperial authorities, but in the case of Krieg are given a pass to continue producing soldiers.
BlaxicanX wrote: Which is silly considering there is nothing "realistic" about the DKoK's preferred method of warfare.
There's nothing realistic about most 40k warfare. The DKoK at least is somewhat accurate to a period of actual human history, as opposed to having genetically engineered super soldiers or ancient mystic aliens with access to any advanced weaponry they want charging into battle with swords and fists.
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.
Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?
Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.
I'm assuming that in this metaphor, Space Marines are the former and the DKoK are the latter?
Spoiler- There is no objective argument you can make that would say otherwise.
As Vakthai mentioned, Vitae Wombs, which according to some sources is a 'cloning tank' which one of the theories is that the DkoK is actually one guy being reproduced infinitely, and as a result the masks are to hide the face of the same man.
Or its a super-fast piece of birthing technology that's been banned in the Imperium due to various things, whether imperfections, mutations (which might incidentally be a reason why the masks too), and various other things.
It's rather vague, one of the few things that is still a mystery in 40k.
Tannhauser42 wrote: This may have already been stated by someone else, but the only problem I have with the DKoK fluff is their numbers. They seem to be everywhere, in every major conflict, suffering huge losses. Where are all these soldiers coming from, though? How does one world, that barely can support life, shattered by a devastating civil war, produce enough soldiers to be present at all these conflicts? Do the women give birth to twins or triplets every year?
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.
Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.
Rough terrain or a couple hand grenades can do that. I don't think I'd equate tread removal with "Shredding a tank".
They can plink them to death 3 times in an assault, so can a heavy stubber if it gets into the rear arc. I don't think I'd consider that "shredding", unless you want to count S6 krak grenades as part of that.
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.
Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.
Not quite, it is Death of Antagonis, a novel where a chapter of Space Marines known as Black Dragons team up with SoB and Guard survivors to fight Plague Zombies, Chaos renegades and CSM. The Black Dragons are a chapter of Space Marines with a few genetic defects in their Ossmodula, sometimes causing bony outgrowths on their forearms and foreheads (and the former are also reinforced with adamantium and used as extra melee weapons). In addition, this has caused some of them to grow a little bit more even than other Space Marines, making them well over three meters tall. In contrast, their Chaos Marine foes are a warband of, well, somewhat less obviously corrupted people.
Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.
Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.
Death of Antagonis, #1 book for making IGhammer-propagators shift uncomfortably.
Not that IG are useless in DoA. Far from it. They play their part. But they have problems facing CSM directly with so few numbers.
Kriegsmen dieing to poison gas ''because they have no protection agaisn't toxins'' I think the author specifically mentions the lack of any protection, so its not the gasmask failing. Nearly stopped reading the book right then.
That's interesting, I'll have to take a look. Fyi, Tyranid toxin is rather corrosive, it is possible that it can just burn through their coats. IIRC 'unprotected' in this context may mean 'outside of a bunker'...
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Maybe not what you're looking for, but in the Damnos book, Calgar grabs onto a misfiring Necron Pylon (the big kind), and, by himself, forcefully turns it to fire at the Tesseract Vault.
Yeah, it's Ultramarines and Calgar, so the writer was having a "goo-in-my-pants" moment. Sadly, the writer has another moment like that a little bit later with Sicarius.
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Maybe not what you're looking for, but in the Damnos book, Calgar grabs onto a misfiring Necron Pylon (the big kind), and, by himself, forcefully turns it to fire at the Tesseract Vault.
Yeah, it's Ultramarines and Calgar, so the writer was having a "goo-in-my-pants" moment. Sadly, the writer has another moment like that a little bit later with Sicarius.
Are you sure it is not one of the significantly smaller Pylons?
Ashiraya wrote: That's interesting, I'll have to take a look. Fyi, Tyranid toxin is rather corrosive, it is possible that it can just burn through their coats. IIRC 'unprotected' in this context may mean 'outside of a bunker'...
But yes, gonna have to check.[/quote]
That would've been fine, that kind of thing happened during the Siege of Vraks, too. What bothers me is that he makes it sound like the Kriegsmen weren't wearing gasmask, which goes agaisnt their fluff AND is completely slowed in that situation, espically with the fluff in mind.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, we do have regular marines ripping the tracks off tanks, which is kind of shredding them. One of the Night Lord books that's been mentioned several times in this thread so far.
Ripping tank treads off of a vehicle sounds well within the capabilities of a Space Marine. It's almost as if they're superhuman, or something.
And yet, it's a far-cry from the obvious hyperbole HybridSon is invoking in a none-too-subtle attempt to complain about Astartes plot armor.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Both factions lose some of their humanity in order to dedicate their lives in service to the Emperor, yet one example is "awesome" and one is not. How come?
Because one becomes a piece in an inhuman machine of destruction that grinds human lives away, and the other one becomes the power fantasy of a 12 years old “I can shred tanks with my bare hands and survive being stepped on by a titan and I am always super-strong and super-intelligent and super-everything”would be my guess.
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
It's almost as if using biased points of views create biased results. Who would've thunk it?
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you have any actual fluff instance of a Space Marine (that wasn't a psyker) shredding a tank with their bare hands or surviving being stepped on by a Titan?
Last I checked, Primarchs aren't Space Marines, anymore than you could say that an Imperial Guard is a Space Marine. And even if they were, drawing broad strokes across an entire fandom going back 30 years off of the actions of a handful of characters written in books less than 5 years old is not only condescending, it's asinine.
No objective arguments, you said .
You should ask Ashiraya to give you a sample of the list of quotes from official material that she keeps handy for discussing how freaking awesome and ultra-powerful marines are.
The marine that was stepped on by a titan was a terminator sergeant, iirc. I have not read the actual thing, but apparently he came out of it… shouting orders rather than agonizing. Yeah, it is that bad. Yes, this kind of excessive “superpower” stuff makes marines unpopular to some people. For sure, more toned down marines would be more popular to them.
Ashiraya wrote: Death of Antagonis, #1 book for making IGhammer-propagators shift uncomfortably.
And BlaxicanX, in this situation .
BlaxicanX wrote: And yet, it's a far-cry from the obvious hyperbole HybridSon is invoking in a none-too-subtle attempt to complain about Astartes plot armor.
.
It is not plot armor here. It is power fantasy. The marines are not that good because the plots require it, or because there is no other way they could have survived. They are that good because it makes the author feel strange in his or her pants .
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side
Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.
The SM's suffer the same problems that Superman does these days. They're always shown as having an answer to everything, and always end up winning, often through some of the most contrived or ridiculous of circumstances. They're simply amp'd up to match whatever it is they're facing. While a common thing in fiction, and not unique to GW Space Marines (as I noted, Superman suffers from the same issue and has been struggling to remain relevant/interesting for decades now), they are by far the worst abusers of this in the 40k universe.
Iron_Captain wrote: The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side
Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.
In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.
There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.
If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side
Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.
In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.
There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.
If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.
Probably because most of that is older fluff where they actually cared to give sides meaningful wins and losses, black templar being as old as they are pretty much in that category.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.
Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .
Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side
Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.
In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.
There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.
If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.
Probably because most of that is older fluff where they actually cared to give sides meaningful wins and losses, black templar being as old as they are pretty much in that category.
The thing is though, in the Necron Codex Imotekh humiliates Helbrecht in a 1-on-1 melee duel (you know, the whole thing the Templars are supposed to do) and then manage to escape when next they meet, further taunting Helbrecht. In the Space Marine Codex, Dark Eldar pirates manage to run off with a score of Templar recruits and get away with it, despite the Templars launching an all-out assault to get them back.
It's not just Templars either. Calgar gets humiliated by the Swarmlord, Sicarius takes significant losses evacuating from Damnos, the Damocles Crusade turns into a bloody stalemate etc. There's plenty of fluff where Marines lose, it just "doesn't count" for one reason or another.
Iron_Captain wrote: The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?
Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?
Yep, but as they're currently Martyred Ladies, they can't speak up for themselves.
Iron_Captain wrote: The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
Pretty much this, and I utterly loved "All's quiet on the Western Front" and most WW1 poetry, but Kriegiers just seem as though a 12 year old wrote most of their ideas.
They take the idea of the utter futility of war and idiocy of putting normal, functional people in such absurd and horrific circumstances and neuter it by removing any human face from those dying. Although that could be part of why you like them, the utter uniformity and conformity of them, it does make the entire thing a bit dull. They've also got a lot of people saying "HURR DURR, DEY B NAZIS" which is just boorish.
Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.
Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?
Yep, but as they're currently Martyred Ladies, they can't speak up for themselves.
The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
I always thought it was just for Added Alliterative Appeal, heh. But, 'Todenkorps" wouldn't have the 'black because its the colour of death' appeal that Death Corps has, I guess.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
For a few days I pronounced Korps exactly how its spelled, like it would be in German (pronouncing the p and s), and people gave me looks like I couldn't read so I stopped. Didn't sound as good anyway.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
Todeskorps von Krieg would be their German version.
But GW gave up on translating names soooo
Maybe next time they call them Death Corps of War for example... you got your english and happy now. Right ?
Corps is from France IIRC. They used it and everybody copied it.
The SM's suffer the same problems that Superman does these days.
Being far more popular and well-loved than 40k in its entirety?
I don't know about all that.
The comparison to Superman is exactly why whining about how strong Marines allegedly are has no value. There are Superman comics featuring an "overpowered" Superman that are critically and commercially better-acclaimed than any fluff ever to have the 40k logo stamped on it.
Crying about Marines crushing armies on their own have a lot less value when you consider the inspiration. Is The Iliad also a terrible twelve year old boy's power fantasy?
In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump.
Not quite my point. Really what I was getting at is, overwhelmingly, no matter how scary the thing put in front of them is, the SM's end up winning. They're fairly one-dimensional in that aspect.
In fact, for the BT's, a single loss was so devastating that it required a 5 year penitent crusade, and even in the end managed to avenge themselves. Defeat (especially permanent, unrecoverable defeat) is so rare as to be unthinkable, which begins to get boring fast. Even when they take heavy casualties, they almost never just get borked.
Iron_Captain wrote: The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?
Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."
Their fluff is pretty clear about the fact that they are specifically deployed to areas where casualties are expected to be horrific. There are lots of IG stories where IG units take near total casualties or are obliterated entirely. Instead of sacrificing other units that may have other valuable specializations, and which may not stay on the field if taking such casualties, when available they deploy the DKoK. The DKoK aren't the only IG units in those situations, they just have a reputation for being stout enough to rely upon and are frequently deployed when such situations are expected by higher commands.
We can use the Siege of Vraks as an example again. No SM's were willing to engage the Citadel, and while the Munitorum calculated that sustained Stormtrooper raids might collapse the heretic forces over the course of a century, they didn't want to wait that long. So they deployed the DKoK regiments as a blunt instrument to grind down the defenses and retake the world much faster but at a much higher cost because they had to directly confront the Citadel's defenses (which had never been breached up to that point). There's countless other 40k battles similar to that, where the IG are used as a blunt instrument and take horrendous casualties. The DKoK are just a particularly reliable formation of troops for such instances. But they aren't unique in engaging in such battles.
Iron_Captain wrote: The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)
Pretty much this, and I utterly loved "All's quiet on the Western Front" and most WW1 poetry, but Kriegiers just seem as though a 12 year old wrote most of their ideas.
They take the idea of the utter futility of war and idiocy of putting normal, functional people in such absurd and horrific circumstances and neuter it by removing any human face from those dying. Although that could be part of why you like them, the utter uniformity and conformity of them, it does make the entire thing a bit dull. They've also got a lot of people saying "HURR DURR, DEY B NAZIS" which is just boorish.
Again, I hate to keep having to hit on this, but lets examine the way the game intro's itself, the slogans GW uses for marketing, and the various phrases used to build the atmosphere of the 40k universe throughout the rulebooks and codex books.
Games Workshop wrote:
"For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and the master of a million worlds by the will of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed each day, and for whom blood is drunk and flesh is eaten. Human blood and human flesh- the stuff which the Imperium is made.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war."
"Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets Heresy"
"A weapon cannot substitute for Zeal."
"Happiness is a delusion of the weak."
"Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life."
"Perseverance and silence are the highest virtues."
"No man died in the Emperor's Service that died in vain."
"It is better to die for the Emperor than live for yourself."
"The Martyr's grave is the keystone of the Imperium."
"Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise."
"You are not required to think, only to act."
"Reason is the cloak of Traitors."
"Thought for the day: Life is a prison, Death a release."
"The Emperor asks only that you obey."
"Innocence proves nothing."
"There is no time for peace. No respite. No forgiveness. There is only war!"
"Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.
Being the bright lights hide a multitude of horrors as would disgust and repel the most stout-hearted of men. So it is with determination and unflinching duty that we must face those vile and terrible things - for if not us, then who?
The creatures of the Warp have but one trait with which you need concern yourself - their undying contempt for the Emperor. It is your task to quell the rebellion they preach, and the only sure way is to destroy them utterly.
Cast out the mutant, the traitor, the heretic! For every enemy without there are a hundred within. Beware their secret clans and hidden ways. The only cult we do not abhor is that of the Emperor!"
"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"
"Victory needs no explanation: Defeat allows none"
"A questioning servant is more dangerous than an ignorant Heretic"
"Hatred is the Emperor's greatest gift to Humanity"
"Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying degrees of guilt."
"The Emperor asks only that you Hate."
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
I mean...I hate to keep quoting these lines again...but really, Games Workshop presents the universe above and the DKoK are just too over the top for it?
Being far more popular and well-loved than 40k in its entirety?
I don't know about all that.
The comparison to Superman is exactly why whining about how strong Marines allegedly are has no value. There are Superman comics featuring an "overpowered" Superman that are critically and commercially better-acclaimed than any fluff ever to have the 40k logo stamped on it.
Crying about Marines crushing armies on their own have a lot less value when you consider the inspiration. Is The Iliad also a terrible twelve year old boy's power fantasy?
Or we could consider the fact that they've had to "reboot" him multiple times in the last two decades and tried several different methods of changing his personality, all in a series of attempts to keep him relevant in the face of declining interest because he's so one-dimensional?
In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump.
Not quite my point. Really what I was getting at is, overwhelmingly, no matter how scary the thing put in front of them is, the SM's end up winning. They're fairly one-dimensional in that aspect.
In fact, for the BT's, a single loss was so devastating that it required a 5 year penitent crusade, and even in the end managed to avenge themselves. Defeat (especially permanent, unrecoverable defeat) is so rare as to be unthinkable, which begins to get boring fast. Even when they take heavy casualties, they almost never just get borked.
It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that. Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.
Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.
@Vaktathi
It's not that GW hasn't created a universe were the DKOK fit in.. It's that real humans don't work like that...
Each and evey person in the world believe that they're the main character of the story..
Creating a super soldier capable of beig only a piece of a whole takes YEARS of mental manipulation JUST to start..
It's unfeasable and ignorant to think that someone can be press-ganged by a visiting army.. (Non of which are the living descendants of the world they "hail from")
Only to be given a gas-mask and told "your a badass martyr that's only a number in this army of bad-asses that will die in gruesome ways in aproxamitaly 2weeks.."
Human mentality would have to be grown from birth to adjus to that.. And even then every second one would have a mental breakdown and have to be put down..
And that's before they see war..
It's pretty clear that the writers haven't heard of PTSD..
Or done any research on the mental effects of press-ganging..
Vaktathi wrote: Or we could consider the fact that they've had to "reboot" him multiple times in the last two decades and tried several different methods of changing his personality, all in a series of attempts to keep him relevant in the face of declining interest because he's so one-dimensional?
I guess you could if you wanted to sound ignorant, sure. Every long-running comic character has been rebooted several times. Comics are the modern greek myths. Numerous writers give their own interpretation or spin of a character. It's a feature of the medium, and to spin that to make it an objective flaw with any given character is disingenuous.
But here's a fact: All Star Superman (Just one comic) is more critically lauded than any fiction to ever come from GW or any associated brand, despite having a Superman that can punch apart planets. The same could be said of Kingdom Come. Or For the Man Who Has Everything. They're also all far smarter stories than any 40k work, critical and commercial appeal be damned.
It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.
The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.
Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.
My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.
Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.
Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won
Inquisitor Bob wrote: @Vaktathi
It's not that GW hasn't created a universe were the DKOK fit in.. It's that real humans don't work like that...
Each and evey person in the world believe that they're the main character of the story..
Creating a super soldier capable of beig only a piece of a whole takes YEARS of mental manipulation JUST to start..
Yes, and both the SM's and DKoK are trained for years, the DKoK from birth are raised to be soldiers.
It's unfeasable and ignorant to think that someone can be press-ganged by a visiting army.. (Non of which are the living descendants of the world they "hail from")
Only to be given a gas-mask and told "your a badass martyr that's only a number in this army of bad-asses that will die in gruesome ways in aproxamitaly 2weeks.."
That's not how the DKoK work...
Human mentality would have to be grown from birth to adjus to that.. And even then every second one would have a mental breakdown and have to be put down..
That sounds pretty much exactly like FW's background on the DKoK. Krieg loses huge numbers of trainees, only those that already make it past the grueling training and mental reconditioning ever make it into the Imperial Guard.
It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.
The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.
Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.
My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.
Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.
Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won
Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?
It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.
The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.
Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.
My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.
Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.
Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won
Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?
It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.
The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.
Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.
My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.
Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.
Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won
Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?
Warboss Thraka to his favorite Enemy Yarrick.
It happens once in a long while but it does.
You proved his point. Thraka VS Yarrick is literally a one of a kind situation.
Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."
You still don't understand how the DKOK functions. The DKOK get those jobs because dying in battle with the Emperor's enemies is a martyr's death, which is exactly how every son and daughter of Krieg wants to go out.
As I've said half a dozen times in this thread so far, the reason the DKOK have Commissars is not to convince them to charge the enemy's emplaced guns, but to stop them from doing it until the artillery barrage has ended and the enemy guns have been "softened up".
Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."
You still don't understand how the DKOK functions. The DKOK get those jobs because dying in battle with the Emperor's enemies is a martyr's death, which is exactly how every son and daughter of Krieg wants to go out.
As I've said half a dozen times in this thread so far, the reason the DKOK have Commissars is not to convince them to charge the enemy's emplaced guns, but to stop them from doing it until the artillery barrage has ended and the enemy guns have been "softened up".
And easing the friction between other units/officers as death korps do unnerve or not quite work so well with other guards units. The comisars are there to rein in some of the more headstrong and fatalistic tendencies until the right moment. There loyal just need a guiding hand somewhat.
I keep hearing that we don't understand Krieg.. But to be honest are we reading the same books here?
You say their trained from birth? I've never read that, only stuff about them press-ganging abets they've "liberated".. That's not birth...
To be honest this conversation will probably be locked soon anyway since we're just going in circles.. The pro side just keep saying "that's not how Krieg work" and the con side keep saying "that's not how humans work"...
And that's just not how a constructive discussion works..
Krieg troops do not function as normal people, there hyper indoctrinated to feel they need to die to absolve sins hundreds off years old. That ain't normal thinking!
Compared to normal impirial citizens there odd, a reason why they need comisars to smooth between them and other regiments.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: I keep hearing that we don't understand Krieg.. But to be honest are we reading the same books here?
What have you read? I'd suggest checking out the Siege of Vraks series, Imperial Armor V (and VI/VII) goes into exceedingly great lengths as to the planet Krieg and how the DKoK functions.
You say their trained from birth? I've never read that, only stuff about them press-ganging abets they've "liberated".. That's not birth...
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg "By order of the High Lords of Terra Krieg's sole purpose is to produce new regiments, and its tithes are the maximum possible for the planet's population, supplying over fifty million men per year. This includes the use of unusual methods such as "Vitae Womb" birthing techniques, a practice seen as dangerous and abhorrent by the Adeptus Mechanicus' Magos Biologis but tolerated by the Departmento Munitorium, while others such as a eugenics program to weed out mutants is simply a continuation of policy from the civil war years.
Recruitment starts almost from birth, and the ability to withstand the hardships of living on an atomic-blasted world is enhanced further with brutal training designed to quickly weed out the weak and unworthy. Mental conditioning is a key part of a Krieg recruit's training, their minds purposefully broken and remade stronger, and absolute faith in the Emperor is installed at an early age, amplifying preexisting cultural norms regarding honour and self-sacrifice to create what the Ecclesiarchy calls a "cult of sacrifice." It also emphasises their role as an element in the greater picture, a pebble in the avalanche which will crush the enemies of the Emperor; as individuals they do not matter, which is why medals and other awards are unheard-of in Krieg regiments, especially since bravery and heroism is to be expected. Rates of injury and fatality during training are high, and as a final test all recruits are forced to endure the surface of Krieg itself, performing maneuvers and fighting mock battles amidst the nuclear-blasted battlefields that cover their world. Only those who survive this final phase of training become members of the Death Korps."
They don't "press gang" anyone, I'm not sure where that's coming from, unless you're talking about the parts in Dead Men Walking where the Krieg troops are put in charge of training the PDF conscripts...
Yeah it was from dead men.. That's interesting.. Eugenics program actually does make them a little more plausible..
As for "doesn't matter if they're realistic or not"... Yeah it does to a lot of people.. I don't care ofthe science is real.. Even magic satanic whatever's doesn't bother me.. When I read through dead men walking and dot even finish it because the only hung more costly than the waste of money was the waste of time.. Then yeah character is pretty important.. And DKOK don't have any relatable.. Or even understandable characters..
After two months of leaving the book to rot.. I don't even regal a single memorable character.. And some pretty awful story...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean when a word-bearer and a heretic has a better love story than twilight..I mean.. DKOK ..A lunar wolf has more flaws than DKOK .. A Primarch has more mortal mentality than a DKOK .. When thousand sons break more times than DKOK .. Even Lorgar had more indecisiveness than DKOK .. And well... Crimson fist look like a bunch of pussies next to DKOK..
... Something's very wrong with the dichotomy there..
Automatically Appended Next Post: But yeah my point is DKOK are the twilight of 40k to me.. So unbelievably over-the-top Mary Sue.. Ignoring anything else in relation to itself
Instead of sparkles.. Add grimdust..
Really? I finished that book in a single night, it was super "40k" to me. I remember more moments from that book than almost any other, like the melta-gun incident referenced earlier in this thread.
Life sucked and then everyone died, the quintessential 40k story.
The DKoK aren't supposed to really be characters that you relate to and feel for, they're supposed to be a reflection of how awful the state of the Imperium is and by extension the 40k universe. In the fight to save humanity, they've had to destroy it.
In Dead Men Walking there were no DeusEx Machina saviors, no ridiculous feats of heroism that magically saved the day, no overpowering martial prowess that simply cuts down everything in its path, no invincible heroes dueling the Big Bad Evil Guy. Rather, it's an examination of the type of battle that occurs all the time within the 40k universe but lacks a heroic character and last minute miraculous victory to save everyone.
The Imperial forces went in, did their utmost, determined the conflict could not be won with the resources available, evacuated what resources they could (and what people could buy their way off-world), and burned the rest along with the Necrons, and shipped everyone on to the next important target. The story of just how bad it sucks to live in the Imperium of Man when not told from the vantage point of someone on the upper .00001% of the Imperium's military or political hierarchy as with most 40k books (or the more action-hero-ey IG books like the Cain books).
If you were reading the book for mighty heroes or lovable characters, or a happy ending, I'd suggest you were looking for the wrong thing out of the book, rather than the book itself having a major problem.
jhe90 wrote: Krieg troops do not function as normal people, there hyper indoctrinated to feel they need to die to absolve sins hundreds off years old. That ain't normal thinking!
But tons of people in the real wold would have that not normal thinking. It is the whole shtick of some real-life religions, like Christianity with that whole “original sin” and stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well.
Not by the level of Ashiraya's quote. Laughing off plasma shots, titan stampedes, Leman Russ battle-cannons…
Because we hardly see them do stuff. Alpha-level psykers are extremely overpowered, but also extremely rare and hardly ever appear in the fluff. Marines are all over the place.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight.
Neither of this is ridiculously overpowered.
Let me quote my Codex about Eldars :
Faeruithir crouched low behind the shattered wall of a human building and spoke to his squad of Warp Spiders.
‘The Mon-keigh cannot mark our passing, and their poor aim cannot seek us within these walls. The slaughter will be vast and our death spinners will sing a lament of blood. Prepare yourselves for another jump, I shall assign targets.’
As the Exarch stepped onto a pile of bricks and stuck his head over the ruined wall, he saw a human tank clumsily skidding through the scattered rubble, its tracks churning through the mounds of stone and throwing up a cloud of gritty dust. Faeruithir ignored the vehicle for a moment; whatever crude weapons the tank possessed would not harm him behind the thick wall.
As Faeruithir noted the squads of the armoured human females moving through the woods, his attention was drawn back to the tank by the whining sound of its turret motors. He glanced back and saw the twin nozzles of some primitive weapon. Just as he turned to step down from the impromptu ledge the Immolator opened fire and gouts of flame poured over the wall, lapping round the shattered windows to engulf the whole squad.
The Immolator rolled onwards, crushing the charred bodies of the Eldar beneath its steel tracks.
Imagine the warp spiders replaced by space marines. Ashiraya would have an heart attack, because marines cannot die to weapons that are not meant to destroy titan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well.
Not by the level of Ashiraya's quote. Laughing off plasma shots, titan stampedes, Leman Russ battle-cannons…
Because we hardly see them do stuff. Alpha-level psykers are extremely overpowered, but also extremely rare and hardly ever appear in the fluff. Marines are all over the place.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight.
Neither of this is ridiculously overpowered.
Let me quote my Codex about Eldars :
Faeruithir crouched low behind the shattered wall of a human building and spoke to his squad of Warp Spiders.
‘The Mon-keigh cannot mark our passing, and their poor aim cannot seek us within these walls. The slaughter will be vast and our death spinners will sing a lament of blood. Prepare yourselves for another jump, I shall assign targets.’
As the Exarch stepped onto a pile of bricks and stuck his head over the ruined wall, he saw a human tank clumsily skidding through the scattered rubble, its tracks churning through the mounds of stone and throwing up a cloud of gritty dust. Faeruithir ignored the vehicle for a moment; whatever crude weapons the tank possessed would not harm him behind the thick wall.
As Faeruithir noted the squads of the armoured human females moving through the woods, his attention was drawn back to the tank by the whining sound of its turret motors. He glanced back and saw the twin nozzles of some primitive weapon. Just as he turned to step down from the impromptu ledge the Immolator opened fire and gouts of flame poured over the wall, lapping round the shattered windows to engulf the whole squad.
The Immolator rolled onwards, crushing the charred bodies of the Eldar beneath its steel tracks.
Imagine the warp spiders replaced by space marines. Ashiraya would have an heart attack, because marines cannot die to weapons that are not meant to destroy titan.
Well the original sin is not really a schtick in christianity due to the fact that In Jesus's death that sin was removed. Though im not saying theres not someone who still sticks to that thinking.
Psykers may be powerful but they also play with fire and may very well doom themselves and everyone around them to a horrible death.
Inquisitor Bob wrote: But yeah my point is DKOK are the twilight of 40k to me.. So unbelievably over-the-top Mary Sue.. Ignoring anything else in relation to itself
Instead of sparkles.. Add grimdust..
Thats how i feel about the Horus Heresy Books and the descriptions of primarchs in general. But i wanted the event to stay in myths and legends of Better days.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
Todeskorps von Krieg would be their German version.
But GW gave up on translating names soooo
Maybe next time they call them Death Corps of War for example... you got your english and happy now. Right ?
Corps is from France IIRC. They used it and everybody copied it.
Todeskorps is never going to be used, because its a euphemism for nazi SS murder squads in Germany.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Crying about Marines crushing armies on their own have a lot less value when you consider the inspiration. Is The Iliad also a terrible twelve year old boy's power fantasy?
No, it's an epic bedtime story designed to give hope to children whose fathers are far from home, prosecuting a war. Same target audience, significantly better paced.
Faeruithir crouched low behind the shattered wall of a human building and spoke to his squad of Warp Spiders.
‘The Mon-keigh cannot mark our passing, and their poor aim cannot seek us within these walls. The slaughter will be vast and our death spinners will sing a lament of blood. Prepare yourselves for another jump, I shall assign targets.’
As the Exarch stepped onto a pile of bricks and stuck his head over the ruined wall, he saw a human tank clumsily skidding through the scattered rubble, its tracks churning through the mounds of stone and throwing up a cloud of gritty dust. Faeruithir ignored the vehicle for a moment; whatever crude weapons the tank possessed would not harm him behind the thick wall.
As Faeruithir noted the squads of the armoured human females moving through the woods, his attention was drawn back to the tank by the whining sound of its turret motors. He glanced back and saw the twin nozzles of some primitive weapon. Just as he turned to step down from the impromptu ledge the Immolator opened fire and gouts of flame poured over the wall, lapping round the shattered windows to engulf the whole squad.
The Immolator rolled onwards, crushing the charred bodies of the Eldar beneath its steel tracks.
Imagine the warp spiders replaced by space marines. Ashiraya would have an heart attack, because marines cannot die to weapons that are not meant to destroy titan.
See, this debate'd be much more reasonable if you stopped claiming that Space Marines almost never get killed, even if it's hyperbole you keep doing it, despite having been proven wrong. Take Helsreach as an example again; a Black Templar Sword Brother almost gets killed by what is essentially a souped-up taser wielded by an Ork Boy. Marines die by the droves in the Damocles Crusade, the Crimson Fists get their Chapter virtually wiped out by their own defence systems, the Celestial Lions get on the wrong side of the Inquisition and are killed by long-las. The Astral Knights rammed the World Engine and died to a man, and even the Ultramarines have their First Company wiped out at Macragge.
No, it's an epic bedtime story designed to give hope to children whose fathers are far from home, prosecuting a war. Same target audience, significantly better paced.
IIRC there was no major Greek conflict around the time The Iliad is thought to have been composed, and depending on your interpretation of the text isn't meant to be uplifting at all, considering how fatalistic it is (The desires of men are meaningless, the gods decide all conflict, etc).
Also, better-paced? Jesus no. By modern standards The Iliad has terrible pacing.
Psienesis wrote: And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.
That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.
I'm sorry to go off topic, but SERIOUSLY?!
To even compare Cadians as the best regiment is seemingly stupid. They're poster boys and lack character, AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM SO BORING! (Remind you of anything... *Cough* Ultrasmurf *Cough*)
The only thing good about them I have ever seen or read is Sergeant Bastonne. He was a bad ass with flavour.
To even compare Cadians to Death Korps is like comparing Cadians to Vostroyans, or Catachan, or the fething Tanith First and Only. Cadians are imo one of the most boring regiments in the galaxy because they can do everything.
The basis of Guard is an untold billion cultures seemingly thrown into one giant machine to use their varying ways of war to stop the enemy on countless different fronts. Whether it is to throw armour and arms in the winding street (Vostroyan), fighting a hard and long guerrilla war in the midst of a sprawling jungle that can kill you in more ways than the enemy (Catachan), or breaking cover and constantly advancing into the enemy to try and break their lines upon a coverless action on a forsaken moon (Mordian). The Guard are so awesome and indeed so diverse that they can suit nearly any environment thrown at them. That's what makes them so awesome.
With the DKoK, they were bred upon an inhospitable land that has been drilling their minds with victory at any cost. They have been so heavily indoctrinated that they are willing to sacrifice even the ultimate price (Their lives) for the cause of the Imperium, to redeem the sins of their forefathers. That is why they are associated with trenches a lot, because they are willing and tenacious to hold the ground until death. They ignore pain, sickness, beauty, passion and everything else, for they just see battle as a glorious way to die. That is why they are sculpted with their masks; to portray that they are just another faceless cog within the war machine that is the Imperium of Man. To compare them to Space Marines is like comparing the mutants to Chaos Marines; they have many common traits, but the mutants with never get to the level of respect and affinity that the Marines are on.
The DKoK are the most dedicated regiment within the Imperium because they only see death within their lives. They are the product of their world.
If any regiment is boring within the Imperial Guard, it has to the Mary Sue Cadians. IMO the DKoK should be on Cadia, because they are the bi-product of constant death and slaughter within an inhospitable land. If anything, Cadia should be an inhospitable fortress because they are constantly assaulted by the Warp and the people on there should think about sacrificing everything to stop the daemons and Chaos from spilling into real-space. Cadians are all well and good, but they don't really resemble IMO the very hard life the fluff says they live; a life of constant sacrifice and hardship battling the warp.
So what you're saying is that they had to become the best of the guardsman due to the extremely adverse circumstances they face, and in turn becoming one of the most truly versatile regiments as well? Cool.
I like the DKoK, but there's nothing wrong with the Cadians.
baxter123 wrote: I'm sorry to go off topic, but SERIOUSLY?! To even compare Cadians as the best regiment is seemingly stupid. They're poster boys and lack character, AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM SO BORING! (Remind you of anything... *Cough* Ultrasmurf *Cough*) The only thing good about them I have ever seen or read is Sergeant Bastonne. He was a bad ass with flavour.
To even compare Cadians to Death Korps is like comparing Cadians to Vostroyans, or Catachan, or the fething Tanith First and Only. Cadians are imo one of the most boring regiments in the galaxy because they can do everything.
The basis of Guard is an untold billion cultures seemingly thrown into one giant machine to use their varying ways of war to stop the enemy on countless different fronts. Whether it is to throw armour and arms in the winding street (Vostroyan), fighting a hard and long guerrilla war in the midst of a sprawling jungle that can kill you in more ways than the enemy (Catachan), or breaking cover and constantly advancing into the enemy to try and break their lines upon a coverless action on a forsaken moon (Mordian). The Guard are so awesome and indeed so diverse that they can suit nearly any environment thrown at them. That's what makes them so awesome.
With the DKoK, they were bred upon an inhospitable land that has been drilling their minds with victory at any cost. They have been so heavily indoctrinated that they are willing to sacrifice even the ultimate price (Their lives) for the cause of the Imperium, to redeem the sins of their forefathers. That is why they are associated with trenches a lot, because they are willing and tenacious to hold the ground until death. They ignore pain, sickness, beauty, passion and everything else, for they just see battle as a glorious way to die. That is why they are sculpted with their masks; to portray that they are just another faceless cog within the war machine that is the Imperium of Man. To compare them to Space Marines is like comparing the mutants to Chaos Marines; they have many common traits, but the mutants with never get to the level of respect and affinity that the Marines are on.
The DKoK are the most dedicated regiment within the Imperium because they only see death within their lives. They are the product of their world.
If any regiment is boring within the Imperial Guard, it has to the Mary Sue Cadians. IMO the DKoK should be on Cadia, because they are the bi-product of constant death and slaughter within an inhospitable land. If anything, Cadia should be an inhospitable fortress because they are constantly assaulted by the Warp and the people on there should think about sacrificing everything to stop the daemons and Chaos from spilling into real-space. Cadians are all well and good, but they don't really resemble IMO the very hard life the fluff says they live; a life of constant sacrifice and hardship battling the warp.
Rant over,
Effectiveness =\= interesting.
He's right that the DKoK are a terribly inefficient army if they're collectively so stupid that a Commissar has to threaten them in order to prevent them from doing a diving-headbutt into a meat grinder and dying pointlessly.
IMO I just hate their mary sue fluff. Some people may like them, go ahead.
I am just saying, to say the Cadians are the best regiment is stupid, for they just lack the diversity that others have (E.g Tanith and their Flamer/Sniper combo, the Vostroyan with their armour advancements etc.)
Plus its not that their stupid, it is that their so willing to sacrifice themselves that they don't see the consequence. They want to fight and kill any enemy they face and achieve victory no matter what.
baxter123 wrote: IMO I just hate their mary sue fluff. Some people may like them, go ahead.
I am just saying, to say the Cadians are the best regiment is stupid, for they just lack the diversity that others have (E.g Tanith and their Flamer/Sniper combo, the Vostroyan with their armour advancements etc.)
What mary sue fluff? I am struggling to think of them being particularly amazing at any point.
The Cadians have the most diversity though because they aren't specialized. Isn't the point of Cadian that they're jacks of all trades?
No regiment is the best regiment. They are all diverse in their own separate ways that there can't be one winner. It really is up to who is your favourite. Some people may say Cadians, some people may say Elysium Drop Troops (Excuse my spelling if I'm wrong).
Personally I prefer the Arkan Confederates (From Fire Caste). I just like their fluff. If it was models, I would choose the Catachan just because of Straken and the fact that I am really interested in the Pacific War and the Guerrilla warfare in World War 2 and they appeal to me because of that.
That really wasn't my argument though. The argument is that the Death Korps aren't boring because they are apparently 'Too Stupid to be cool', it is just that they are a diverse regiment that is the bi-product of the inhospitable land they originated from. They are willing to throw themselves at the enemy no matter the cost for they only see victory at any cost.
Oh for the Mary Sue fluff, how about try the Cadians description in Sixth Edition about being the most called upon regiment in the Imperial Guard and the fact that even though they send out billions of troops, they still have PLENTY of manpower to stop constant invasions and massacres that happen all around the planet? It just seems a bit mary sue to me, but some people may like it, and if they like it go ahead. I just think their too versatile and boring.
I just think the fluff for the Cadians are a bit dull.
yeah I think it would be. Their not my favourite regiment, but their cool I reckon. If someone said 'The Catachan are the best' my response would still be the same. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that every regiments too versatile within the Guard to pick the BEST REGIMENT EVER!
Within the imperial guard is literally every trope and stereotype about (european/western) warfare imaginable. The DKOK are simply one aspect of that, in that they are All Quiet on the Western Front in a over the top grimdark world. Everything in 40k is one single aspect turned up to 11. The DKOK is an extremely British way of looking at total war, shaped by the cultural trauma of the SOmme and Paschendele. Its no better or worse than anything else out there.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: See, this debate'd be much more reasonable if you stopped claiming that Space Marines almost never get killed, even if it's hyperbole you keep doing it, despite having been proven wrong.
I do not know about you, but I am pretty sure Ashiraya would be pretty unhappy by marines being killed by something as weak as sororitas heavy flamers. Is that not true, Ashiraya?
I mean, she is adamant that marines should be able to resist direct shots from plasma guns and melta guns, what are a few gout of promethium going to do to them?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: See, this debate'd be much more reasonable if you stopped claiming that Space Marines almost never get killed, even if it's hyperbole you keep doing it, despite having been proven wrong.
I do not know about you, but I am pretty sure Ashiraya would be pretty unhappy by marines being killed by something as weak as sororitas heavy flamers. Is that not true, Ashiraya?
I mean, she is adamant that marines should be able to resist direct shots from plasma guns and melta guns, what are a few gout of promethium going to do to them?
It is relevant because then I can have you argue my point instead of having to do it myself. You have a ton of handy quotes that I do not have, and you are much more experienced at doing that than I am. Please ?
Cadians are pretty awesome. Just like the Death Korps, they train from near birth and have a 1:1 birth:conscription rate. Only the Cadians do it right and end up with worthwhile soldiers instead of brain-dead zombies.
Furyou Miko wrote: Cadians are pretty awesome. Just like the Death Korps, they train from near birth and have a 1:1 birth:conscription rate. Only the Cadians do it right and end up with worthwhile soldiers instead of brain-dead zombies.
Commissars, fluff wise, are not really needed in Cadian armies, because the Cadians are supposedly (although the game rules don't represent it for some reason) disciplined and brave enough not to need them.
Cadian rules suffer from Ultramarine syndrome. While the Smurfs have their own specialisms and awesome stuff, they don't get rules for most of it because they have to be presented as the normal baseline for some reason.
The Elysian "Iron Discipline" rule, fo example, really should be a Cadian rule - who is more disciplined, the Cadian who is raised to war from birth, or the merchant navy soldiers of Elysia?
1hadhq wrote:
Maybe next time they call them Death Corps of War for example... you got your english and happy now. Right ?
I would be.
1hadhq wrote:
Corps is from France IIRC. They used it and everybody copied it.
This doesn't at all matter. Corps is the word used in English, just like the word "Death". Randomly changing it to a "K" makes it meaningless, because "Korps" is not a word in English and their name is English.
Furyou Miko wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
Todeskorps von Krieg would be their German version.
Todeskorps is never going to be used, because its a euphemism for nazi SS murder squads in Germany.
Except that's what they're actually called in German. With Germans being far more sensitive about references to Nazis than anyone else, I don't see how this is a problem. Also, "Krieg" is German for "war". "Death" is a cool word, but I would like it if they stuck to one language in a name, rather than mashing them together in ways they don't fit. The "of Krieg" part is fine because Krieg is the name of the planet. Worse still, the German word is the same but with a K-C swap - something I really, really hate. It's bad enough that they do K-C swaps at every possible opportunity with the Orks (Kustom Force Field, for example). At least using "Ork" instead of "Orc" serves to distinguish them.
Frozen Ocean wrote: "Death" is a cool word, but I would like it if they stuck to one language in a name, rather than mashing them together in ways they don't fit.
You have no idea what kind of horrible mix we have to deal with, at least in France . For instance, chapter's name are all in English… except for Grey Knights, which are translated in French, because reasons. Genestealers were always genestealer, until the lastest codex turned them into genovore. And the alpha is now a genocrate. Swooping hawks went from “aigles chasseurs” to “éperviers voltigueurs”. Since Astra Militorum, unit names are not translated anymore, which means in the middle of a French text, we get some English word that looks completely out of place. Especially with IG, because really, “commissar” instead of “commissaire”, it just looks like some horrible, horrible typo, for instance.
It has always been a freaking mess, and it is getting worse and worse.
Oh, I know, but that's a GW translating issue (which I hear is notoriously bad) rather than a name for something in their native language. "Death Korps" is just a bad attempt at making their name look German, but it's their English name (the GW original) that has English in it (Death, of) already.
EDIT: If they were called "Todeskorps von Krieg" in the English version, it would just mean their actual, non-translated name is German. Does that make sense?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, the K of Korps is basically GW version of a metal umlaut .
Yes, yes it is. Also for added German.
Psienesis wrote:And that's why it's badass. Death Korps just sounds badass.
That's the thing, though. Because their name is English, does that mean it should be pronounced like "core" or "corpse"? If the latter, that means their name is phonetically "Death Corpse of Krieg". Make that "Deathcorpse Krieg" and you've got yourself a death/black metal band.
You're telling me it's NOT pronounced 'korpse'?
Everyone I know says 'Death Korpse of Kreeg', (Korpse with a K because it's it's a harsh K rather than a softer C)
Ashiraya wrote: You're telling me it's NOT pronounced 'korpse'?
Everyone I know says 'Death Korpse of Kreeg', (Korpse with a K because it's it's a harsh K rather than a softer C)
Well then, that's how I thought to say it it sounds even more badass that way.
But let's all agree on this; the Death Korps (Which I reckon is an EPIC name) models looks absolutely awesome. If I was in England I would buy as many as humanly possible.But, in australia it is hard enough to try and get NORMAL GW products for a decent price. how you other worlders just love to grab those models while I have to deal with inflated prices, enormous shipping prices and everything else
Psienesis wrote: Even in Americanese, we pronounce "Corps" as "core". There's no confusion there, unless you're illiterate.
Being illiterate and lacking the specific knowledge that corps is not really at all phonetic are not the same, for a start (see Ashiraya's post). The reason I asked was because you responded to the discussion about why it has a K - making it the German word - with:
Psienesis wrote:And that's why it's badass. Death Korps just sounds badass.
So I asked you about this (your specific usage of the K), because I was unsure if you were referring to something similar to this post...
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.
For a few days I pronounced Korps exactly how its spelled, like it would be in German (pronouncing the p and s), and people gave me looks like I couldn't read so I stopped. Didn't sound as good anyway.
... or if you were referring to the English pronunciation, which is the same as "core". This is ignoring that the correct German pronunciation of the German word, "Korps", is the same (like "core") as "Corps" in English, with the original French pronunciation. However, this is a totally legitimate thing to be wrong about, because it's a foreign (French) pronunciation adopted into another foreign language (German), and it would be easy to assume that the German word was changed to German pronunciation simply because they also changed the spelling.
EDIT: Just to clear that up, it's pronounced "Death Core of Kreeg".
Even though I know its Core, I still call them the Death Corpse, because its obviously supposed to be a pun, and I don't trust the morons who hang out at my GW store to get the joke.
To those saying that Death Korps are badass because their Commissars are there to stop them killing themselves in useless attacks:
The Commissars amongst the assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches.
-Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks
Death Korps running away and shooting their own Commissars.
The Wolf of Fenris was a Space Marine Strike Cruiser of the Space Wolves Chapter that was captured by the Red Corsairs at the Battle of Parenxes, sometime after the Badab War.
Realizing that they needed ships to carry out their raids, Huron Blackheart, Master of the Red Corsairs, ordered an attack on a Space Marine patrol group of the Space Wolves and Flame Hawks Chapters near the world of Parenxes. In a surprise attack near the Parenxes star, Huron's forces crippled the Wolf of Fenris and damaged several other vessels (though all save the Wolf were allowed to escape). Using boarding torpedoes, the Red Corsairs first took control of the engine room so that the Space Wolves could not self-destruct, then a second wave was sent into the cargo bays. The third wave, led by Blackheart himself, entered at a point fifty meters from the command deck. Huron stormed the bridge and tore apart the ship's captain, Gnyrll Bluetooth, with the huge weapon that served as his right arm.
As the Red Corsairs' victory became inevitable, several Space Wolves turned on their fellows and threw themselves at the mercy of Blackheart. They renounced their pledges to their Chapter, Primarch and Emperor, and swore allegiance to Huron. As reward for their allegiance, Huron granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris, which is now part of the Red Corsairs' fleet.
Just because a faction has a reputation for something, does not mean that every member of that faction sticks to it, or are we to believe that all Space Wolves are, at heart, cowards and traitors?
The Wolf of Fenris was a Space Marine Strike Cruiser of the Space Wolves Chapter that was captured by the Red Corsairs at the Battle of Parenxes, sometime after the Badab War.
Realizing that they needed ships to carry out their raids, Huron Blackheart, Master of the Red Corsairs, ordered an attack on a Space Marine patrol group of the Space Wolves and Flame Hawks Chapters near the world of Parenxes. In a surprise attack near the Parenxes star, Huron's forces crippled the Wolf of Fenris and damaged several other vessels (though all save the Wolf were allowed to escape). Using boarding torpedoes, the Red Corsairs first took control of the engine room so that the Space Wolves could not self-destruct, then a second wave was sent into the cargo bays. The third wave, led by Blackheart himself, entered at a point fifty meters from the command deck. Huron stormed the bridge and tore apart the ship's captain, Gnyrll Bluetooth, with the huge weapon that served as his right arm.
As the Red Corsairs' victory became inevitable, several Space Wolves turned on their fellows and threw themselves at the mercy of Blackheart. They renounced their pledges to their Chapter, Primarch and Emperor, and swore allegiance to Huron. As reward for their allegiance, Huron granted them command of the Wolf of Fenris, which is now part of the Red Corsairs' fleet.
Just because a faction has a reputation for something, does not mean that every member of that faction sticks to it, or are we to believe that all Space Wolves are, at heart, cowards and traitors?
Considering that all Kriegsmen are clones of eachother, then yes, they are all capable of retreating and popping their own Commissars.
One should also probably expound on the circumstances instead of cherry picking one part of the story, it was a unit that got caught in a heavy artillery barrage in the open before they got anywhere near the opposing lines, and was unable to find its direction and had no ability to reach the enemy.
The entire regiment was then subsequently disbanded for the actions of a few companies, its officers executed, and its survivors sent to penal battalions.
It's also the only instance of such occurring in any DKoK fluff.
Meanwhile we have plenty of instances of SM's turning traitor and losing faith and no longer having the same iron-clad fearlessness they once did.
Vaktathi wrote: One should also probably expound on the circumstances instead of cherry picking one part of the story, it was a unit that got caught in a heavy artillery barrage in the open before they got anywhere near the opposing lines, and was unable to find its direction and had no ability to reach the enemy.
The entire regiment was then subsequently disbanded for the actions of a few companies, its officers executed, and its survivors sent to penal battalions.
It's also the only instance of such occurring in any DKoK fluff.
Meanwhile we have plenty of instances of SM's turning traitor and losing faith and no longer having the same iron-clad fearlessness they once did.
Considering that all Kriegsmen are clones of eachother, then yes, they are all capable of retreating and popping their own Commissars.
Please find a quote to support that. You won't find one.
Still doesn't defeat the fact that they killed their own Commissars despite previous fanboys claiming that they know no retreat and such.
It also shows a massive inconsistency in the Kriegsmen's morale, previously in Siege of Vraks during the first wave they just marched forward into the enemy guns '5 yards apart' and were scythed down, whereas here, further into the war they're running away. Not exactly great siege troops.
Still doesn't defeat the fact that they killed their own Commissars despite previous fanboys claiming that they know no retreat and such.
They largely don't. Such was rare enough that they disbanded the entire regiment and killed all the officers for it. Not impossible, just extremely rare, and served to show just how incredibly fearsome the defenses of Vraks really were.
It also shows a massive inconsistency in the Kriegsmen's morale, previously in Siege of Vraks during the first wave they just marched forward into the enemy guns '5 yards apart' and were scythed down, whereas here, further into the war they're running away. Not exactly great siege troops.
If you look at the entire passage, it's not just that they're getting scythed down, so much as that they're literally in a killing box, and are getting hit so far out they don't even know what direction they're going anymore or where the enemy is. It's also IIRC before they breach the first defense line of the Citadel.
Still doesn't defeat the fact that they killed their own Commissars despite previous fanboys claiming that they know no retreat and such.
They largely don't. Such was rare enough that they disbanded the entire regiment and killed all the officers for it. Not impossible, just extremely rare, and served to show just how incredibly fearsome the defenses of Vraks really were.
It also shows a massive inconsistency in the Kriegsmen's morale, previously in Siege of Vraks during the first wave they just marched forward into the enemy guns '5 yards apart' and were scythed down, whereas here, further into the war they're running away. Not exactly great siege troops.
If you look at the entire passage, it's not just that they're getting scythed down, so much as that they're literally in a killing box, and are getting hit so far out they don't even know what direction they're going anymore or where the enemy is. It's also IIRC before they breach the first defense line of the Citadel.
The retreat of the 158th was the 1st assault on sector 50-45, after the assault on the second line of defence.
And, the Grenadiers in the assault on the orbital laser defence silo didn't retreat despite being whupped by renegade forces and being in a similar 'killing box' situation.
Was it the second line? I don't have the book on me, I admit I could be wrong there. I'll have to check on the Grenadier story when I get home, I thought they'd reached the enemy lines when they got dropped on.
Either way, out of 14 million dead Krieg guardsmen and 18 years of siege, it was the only described incident of such, which puts its far beyond any historical human army.
Hell, on both an absolute man-for-man basis and proportional basis, makes the DKoK more reliable than the Astartes, where half the original ones went traitor, and at least 50 full chapers plus innumerable companies/squads/individuals have since lost their faith and turned against the Imperium
Vaktathi wrote: Hell, on both an absolute man-for-man basis and proportional basis, makes the DKoK more reliable than the Astartes, where half the original ones went traitor, and at least 50 full chapers plus innumerable companies/squads/individuals have since lost their faith and turned against the Imperium
Yeah, but Astartes will turn to chaos at the slightest of provocation anyway. So, not really something to gloat upon. I am pretty sure even penal legions are less likely to turn traitor .
You say that it's the only recorded instance, but then you just have to look at the fact that Space Marines have been recorded thousands of times more than the Death Korps of Krieg, and are recorded to have been in hundreds more engagements.
Then you have to think that there is a faction called Chaos Space Marines, of course there will be more recorded instances of Space Marines turning Chaos or it would be considered that C:CSM is pointless.
There is no Codex: Chaos Death Korps of Krieg or I'm sure they'd be written to have a lot more insubordination and Slaanesh worship as they do now.
Those Kriegsman that did not fall back were killed or captured
More Kriegsmen running away in Siege of Vraks volume 2, and I can think of 2 more instances in volume 1.
What an amazing name. Everyone knows it already, but they really are seriously overboard with the whole wolf thing. I'm surprised it was called a Strike Cruiser and not a Void Fang or whatever.
What an amazing name. Everyone knows it already, but they really are seriously overboard with the whole wolf thing. I'm surprised it was called a Strike Cruiser and not a Void Fang or whatever.
My point is that if there was a faction created that necessitated the Death Korps turning to Chaos then a lot more Death Korps would turn to Chaos in the fluff. I am not defeating my own point.
BrotherOfBone wrote: You say that it's the only recorded instance, but then you just have to look at the fact that Space Marines have been recorded thousands of times more than the Death Korps of Krieg, and are recorded to have been in hundreds more engagements.
Then you have to think that there is a faction called Chaos Space Marines, of course there will be more recorded instances of Space Marines turning Chaos or it would be considered that C:CSM is pointless.
There is no Codex: Chaos Death Korps of Krieg
Isn't that...IA 5...and IA 6...and IA 7...and IA 12...and
Going back earlier there was also the 2003 Chapter Approved that initially introduced them.
More Kriegsmen running away in Siege of Vraks volume 2, and I can think of 2 more instances in volume 1.
Where? I'm gonna go find my books, I can't think of anything where they outright break. Retreat yes, but that's not the same thing.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Then you have to think that there is a faction called Chaos Space Marines, of course there will be more recorded instances of Space Marines turning Chaos or it would be considered that C:CSM is pointless.
There is no Codex: Chaos Death Korps of Krieg or I'm sure they'd be written to have a lot more insubordination and Slaanesh worship as they do now.
IOW, "if GW wanted the fluff to be different it would be different". What does that have to do with the actual fluff that GW has published?
The Death Korps aren't clones. Otherwise they wouldn't have to weed so many out via those crazy harsh training practices in the first place. You'll find some bad apples here and there. The simple fact is the fluff explicitly states that they don't break. Therefore, one can assume that when an example comes up where they DO break, it must be a rare case. Otherwise the fluff wouldn't state that they don't break.
The same applies to Space Marines. (all of it, really)
What you DON'T have is a statement explicitly stating which, man for man, breaks/turns/runs away more often than the other. Which makes this whole pissing contest of whether or not Kriegs break more than Space Marines to be rather stupid, IMHO (something that several people are already trying to subtley point out here).
The only thing you can really say for sure in regards to that sort of thing is that Battle Sisters and Grey Knights beat everyone in that regard. Beyond that, you're going to have to find something more explicit in terms of SCOPE than a few isolated examples.
It's also the only instance of such occurring in any DKoK fluff.
Meanwhile we have plenty of instances of SM's turning traitor and losing faith and no longer having the same iron-clad fearlessness they once did.
Why bring this up though? He did not mention nor imply anything about the Space Marines in his post, so you even bringing this up just implies you have a personal vendetta against Space Marines.
What you DON'T have is a statement explicitly stating which, man for man, breaks/turns/runs away more often than the other. Which makes this whole pissing contest of whether or not Kriegs break more than Space Marines to be rather stupid, IMHO (something that several people are already trying to subtley point out here).
Vaktathi wrote: One should also probably expound on the circumstances instead of cherry picking one part of the story, it was a unit that got caught in a heavy artillery barrage in the open before they got anywhere near the opposing lines, and was unable to find its direction and had no ability to reach the enemy.
The entire regiment was then subsequently disbanded for the actions of a few companies, its officers executed, and its survivors sent to penal battalions.
It's also the only instance of such occurring in any DKoK fluff.
Meanwhile we have plenty of instances of SM's turning traitor and losing faith and no longer having the same iron-clad fearlessness they once did.
Considering that all Kriegsmen are clones of eachother, then yes, they are all capable of retreating and popping their own Commissars.
Please find a quote to support that. You won't find one.
Still doesn't defeat the fact that they killed their own Commissars despite previous fanboys claiming that they know no retreat and such.
It also shows a massive inconsistency in the Kriegsmen's morale, previously in Siege of Vraks during the first wave they just marched forward into the enemy guns '5 yards apart' and were scythed down, whereas here, further into the war they're running away. Not exactly great siege troops.
And the Space Wolves aboard the Wolf of Fenris threw themselves at Huron's feet, turned on their brothers, and cried like little bishes to renounce the Emperor and join with Chaos.
Since Space Wolves all share the same Geneseed and the Canis Helix, then they're effectively clones of one another, and thus will all cry like bishes to renounce the Emperor to side with Chaos when faced with the choice.
And the Space Wolves aboard the Wolf of Fenris threw themselves at Huron's feet, turned on their brothers, and cried like little bishes to renounce the Emperor and join with Chaos.
Since Space Wolves all share the same Geneseed and the Canis Helix, then they're effectively clones of one another, and thus will all cry like bishes to renounce the Emperor to side with Chaos when faced with the choice.
/eyeroll
What's your point, that Space Wolves can be cowards?
I think what Psienesis meant is that one example of breaking morale does not mean they are all ineffectual and cowardly, which is what BrotherOfBone was trying to say.
BlaxicanX wrote: Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.
Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.
BlaxicanX wrote: Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.
Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.
Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?
BlaxicanX wrote: Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.
Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.
Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?
Marines have ATSKNF, so falling back for them is a tactical withdrawal, they do not rout, which is why they cannot be swept.
Nowhere is a fall back move described as a rout or panicked withdrawal in the rulebook, it states that "sometimes retreat is the only option left to a soldier on the battlefield...of course a retreat is not without its risks" and then later states "just because a unit Falls Back doesn't mean it is out of the fight".
BlaxicanX wrote: Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and manfighting.
Typical of the Guard.
Huh? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here...
EDIT: It should also be pointed out that their special rules have changed over time. When first introduced in 3E, they were fearless in Close Combat (which was really nice when enemies could consolidate into new combats, you could hold them in place). When FW wrote rules for them, they got similar CC based morale bonuses. Then after 4th edition and moving through 5th and into 6th, they realized that "bonus" was more of a negative than a positive with consolidation into new combats removed, and replaced it with the "don't take morale tests for 25% casualties" rule, which makes them effectively fearless against shooting. They also can always regroup regardless of squad size if close to officers.
Void__Dragon wrote: Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?
I'll admit that I'm not an expert on DKoK fluff or anything, but I will note that, 40K canon being up fe interpretation and all, if that one piece of fluff seems out of character to how perceive them as usually acting, then it's fine to disregard it from your own view of the setting.
I mean, I'm unsure about it myself, but just pointing out that the option is there if that piece of fluff isn't to your liking.
BlaxicanX wrote: Ah, so they're cowards of the highest order when up close and temporarily being as stupid as a space marine.
Fixed that for you. Melee combat isn't manly, it's just stupid. There's a reason the average DKoK regiment brings an earthshaker cannon or ten for every marine in a battle.
Is that the same reason for why they're WS4 and BS3?
Boom, headshot.
I thought you said that game stats were abstractions that didn't reflect the fluff?
Void__Dragon wrote: Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
Void__Dragon wrote: Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?
Void__Dragon wrote: Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?
Or how the Ultramarines lost Damnos to the Necrons?
We can go in circles about this but my point is that it's unfair to call the DKoK unsuccessful compared to the Marines. They both do their job adequately and sometimes fail miserably.
I'm talking in universe, of course. I agree that their tactics are outdated. They were outdated in 1940 let alone year 40,000.
Void__Dragon wrote: Is there also a reason why the Death Korps are much less successful than most Marine chapters despite bringing those Earthshaker cannons?
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
Or how the Death Korps lost an entire planet by fighting the Necrons with horrible, horrible DKOK tactics?
Or how the Ultramarines lost Damnos to the Necrons?
We can go in circles about this but my point is that it's unfair to call the DKoK unsuccessful compared to the Marines. They both do their job adequately and sometimes fail miserably.
I'm talking in universe, of course. I agree that their tactics are outdated. They were outdated in 1940 let alone year 40,000.
'
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.
That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.
Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.
That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.
Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.
I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.
That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.
Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.
It's not at all how the Imperial Guard fight, and is largely just a meme started by the 40K community. Cadians, Elysians, Catachans, Tallarn Raiders, Necromundan, Harakoni Warhawks, etc all practice either, modern, WWII, or guerilla tactics that are by no means the slowed idea of throwing a finite source into the meat-grinder like the DKOK.
Also, no. The Guardsmen were actually slowing down the Necrons by use of metalguns and hitting them in the eye-sockets to presumably vaporize their mechanical brains. They were still constantly producing more numbers, but due to the incompetence of the Death Korps, the planet was poorly evacuated and they didn't act fast enough. Rather they treated the Necrons as a conventional foe. Hell at one point I think the idiot commander thought he could and had demoralized them.
Well, the Elysians could drop in, blow something up, get killed to a man... and then have died for no reason at all as whatever they blew up just glows green for a second and reassembles itself.
The Vostroyans could drive some tanks up there, and get blown to hell by the standard rifle carried by all Necron ground forces.
The Cadians could... just kind of stand there with lasguns and get Gaussed to death, as happens every time they encounter the Necrons.
The Catachans could... I'm not really sure. Necrons use all kinds of advanced electronic sensory systems. Hard to hide from something that can see the pheremones in your sweat. So the Catachans could get wiped out to a man in their first encounter with a Lychguard or a Death Ray (Connect the dots, la la la la, connect the dots, it's a death-ray beam!).
The Mordians could look good getting gaussed and heat-rayed and death-rayed and otherwise super-scienced to death.
I mean, I don't want to oversell the Necrons here but, fluff-wise, they're virtually unstoppable, especially if approaching anything like equal concentrations of force. The Necrons are just that powerful.
I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.
Agreed. Just because you have emotionally dead soldiers does not mean you throw them into the meat grinder when reinforcements could be months or years away, and only puts you in danger of losing a planet.
That would apply to *every* regiment of the Imperial Guard. That's how they fight.
Against the Necrons, it's not like any other tactic of the IG would have been any more successful. The Necrons are on a tech-level that basically outstrips pretty much anything the IG can throw at them (fluff-wise). At best, they can slow a Necron advance by throwing so many soldiers in front of them that the robo-zombies have to take the time to stop and kill them.
It's not at all how the Imperial Guard fight, and is largely just a meme started by the 40K community. Cadians, Elysians, Catachans, Tallarn Raiders, Necromundan, Harakoni Warhawks, etc all practice either, modern, WWII, or guerilla tactics that are by no means the slowed idea of throwing a finite source into the meat-grinder like the DKOK.
Also, no. The Guardsmen were actually slowing down the Necrons by use of metalguns and hitting them in the eye-sockets to presumably vaporize their mechanical brains. They were still constantly producing more numbers, but due to the incompetence of the Death Korps, the planet was poorly evacuated and they didn't act fast enough. Rather they treated the Necrons as a conventional foe. Hell at one point I think the idiot commander thought he could and had demoralized them.
Psienesis wrote: Well, the Elysians could drop in, blow something up, get killed to a man... and then have died for no reason at all as whatever they blew up just glows green for a second and reassembles itself.
The Vostroyans could drive some tanks up there, and get blown to hell by the standard rifle carried by all Necron ground forces.
The Cadians could... just kind of stand there with lasguns and get Gaussed to death, as happens every time they encounter the Necrons.
The Catachans could... I'm not really sure. Necrons use all kinds of advanced electronic sensory systems. Hard to hide from something that can see the pheremones in your sweat. So the Catachans could get wiped out to a man in their first encounter with a Lychguard or a Death Ray (Connect the dots, la la la la, connect the dots, it's a death-ray beam!).
The Mordians could look good getting gaussed and heat-rayed and death-rayed and otherwise super-scienced to death.
I mean, I don't want to oversell the Necrons here but, fluff-wise, they're virtually unstoppable, especially if approaching anything like equal concentrations of force. The Necrons are just that powerful.
I never knew the Imperial Guard was taking notes from Mr. Brannigan. Explains so much.
Never fielded Chenkov before?
The Necrons in the book weren't nearly as lethal as you suggest. An emotionally dead PDF soldier (who effectively was transformed into a Krieger) managed to infiltrate past the Necrons and get into the Pyramid at the end of the book, their sensors aren't infallible and a force like the Catachans could have certainly infiltrated the area and gotten into the Pyramid, for them that's just another day at the office. Cadians also would have been able to actually fight back the Necron Warrior patrols on the lower levels of the hive worlds given their absurd accuracy in battle, better than the DKOK in fact, who I also recall being able to kill Necron attackers.
The Necrons in the book weren't nearly as lethal as you suggest. An emotionally dead PDF soldier (who effectively was transformed into a Krieger) managed to infiltrate past the Necrons and get into the Pyramid at the end of the book, their sensors aren't infallible and a force like the Catachans could have certainly infiltrated the area and gotten into the Pyramid, for them that's just another day at the office. Cadians also would have been able to actually fight back the Necron Warrior patrols on the lower levels of the hive worlds given their absurd accuracy in battle, better than the DKOK in fact, who I also recall being able to kill Necron attackers.
My Army guy is better at killing X then your Army guy.
An emotionally dead PDF soldier
Oh you mean the Main character? you know, the one with the plot armor?
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
And have contributed far more greatly to far more important battles across the galaxy than the Death Korps, yes.
if you're just looking at Vraks? Sure. Vraks wasn't supposed to be the galaxy's greatest battle, it never pretended to be anything other than one of any uncountable number of small wars the Imperium is always fighting. It also wasn't the only place the DKoK was fighting however. That said, the DA's have been around 10x as long as the DKoK has, 1500 years previous to the current timeline, Krieg was a much different place and its IG regiments were completely different.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
You mean like the successful Dark Angels who lost 20% of their entire chapter just trying to seize a space port?
And have contributed far more greatly to far more important battles across the galaxy than the Death Korps, yes.
if you're just looking at Vraks? Sure. Vraks wasn't supposed to be the galaxy's greatest battle, it never pretended to be anything other than one of any uncountable number of small wars the Imperium is always fighting. It also wasn't the only place the DKoK was fighting however. That said, the DA's have been around 10x as long as the DKoK has, 1500 years previous to the current timeline, Krieg was a much different place and its IG regiments were completely different.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
The Guard always needs more troops that can march aimlessly forward toward guns in rank and file.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.
Death Korps of Krieg, famed for: Siege Warfare, Trench Warfare, Stoicism, Stalling Until Better Forces Come Along Doesn't say a lot for them does it?
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.
Death Korps of Krieg, famed for: Siege Warfare, Trench Warfare, Stoicism, Stalling Until Better Forces Come Along Doesn't say a lot for them does it?
That's what the IG does. It stalls the enemy until the Space Marines come along and win the war.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
They succeed in Stalin the Germans though. which gave time for the West to put presser on the Western front.
Death Korps of Krieg, famed for: Siege Warfare, Trench Warfare, Stoicism, Stalling Until Better Forces Come Along Doesn't say a lot for them does it?
That's how most SM stories involving the IG go simply for the sake of the story. That said, this is a somewhat disingenuous way to portray the Siege of Vraks, many Krieg regiments were diverted to other warzones (in large part because of Inquisitorial meddling) and the threats at the end of the campaign were neither present nor anticipated when the DKoK were originally deployed. When you have the greatest of Khorne's bloodthirsters appear on the battlefield, that's not an issue for the Imperial Guard, nor the Space Marines, it's something for the Inquisition and the Grey Knights.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
The fact that the DKoK was in every major war in the last thousand years doesn't mean that they're good, it means there's a lot of them to spread around. Guard aren't chosen on quality, they're chosen on quantity.
But, as the Russians proved in WW2 Quantity is a Quality on it's own.
And was Russia initially successful against a strong Germany with elite forces? No, they were getting obliterated until the West started pushing down on them.
Your knowledge of the second world war is woefully bad.
The Wehrmacht was broken at Stalingrad and Kursk, long before the allies were in Europe in force (aside from Italy where they were well contained and didn't break out until the other fronts had pushed into Germany already), they were in full scale retreat after that. By the time of the Normany landings the Germans were irreversibly in retreat on the Eastern Front, and Operation Bagration and subsequent push to Warsaw, which commenced just a bit after the Normandy landings, annihilated the center of the German lines, inflicting greater casualties, logistical damage, and territory loss than the Normandy campaign did.
The first forces across the German border were not the western allies, but Red Army troops. It was not the western allies that took Berlin, it was the Red Army.
~75% of all German casualties were sustained on the Eastern Front. If you look at the ground forces alone, this is almost 90%.
The Wehrmacht was broken at Stalingrad and Kursk, long before the allies were in Europe in force (aside from Italy where they were well contained and didn't break out until the other fronts had pushed into Germany already), they were in full scale retreat after that. By the time of the Normany landings the Germans were irreversibly in retreat on the Eastern Front, and Operation Bagration and subsequent push to Warsaw, which commenced just a bit after the Normandy landings, annihilated the center of the German lines, inflicting greater casualties, logistical damage, and territory loss than the Normandy campaign did.
The first forces across the German border were not the western allies, but Red Army troops. It was not the western allies that took Berlin, it was the Red Army.
~75% of all German casualties were sustained on the Eastern Front. If you look at the ground forces alone, this is almost 90%.
Oh thank you. Someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
But, before this thread gets derailed into a WW2 argument. I'd like to add that if it came down to it ,No single country at the time could of beaten German on it's own.
Now, back to 40k. What were we arguing about again? Something about a fantasy army is dumb because it's not realistic?
if you're just looking at Vraks? Sure. Vraks wasn't supposed to be the galaxy's greatest battle, it never pretended to be anything other than one of any uncountable number of small wars the Imperium is always fighting. It also wasn't the only place the DKoK was fighting however. That said, the DA's have been around 10x as long as the DKoK has, 1500 years previous to the current timeline, Krieg was a much different place and its IG regiments were completely different.
Since the return of Krieg to the Imperial fold however, DK regiments have been involved in just about every major Imperial war in the last thousand years.
I'm seeing a lot of justifications for Dark Angels being more successful than the DKoK but all that really tells me is that they were more successful than the DKoK.
That they have been around for far longer means nothing to the conclusion.
If he was going to idk, set off a bomb that would devastate Imperial lines then yeah. Yeah it does.
If he was not even there, it was just a rumor, and the unforgiven just left their allies at the start of a battle, putting them in weaker position than if the dark angel had never even come, though… not that much.
Guess which one happens more often.
How to win against the dark angel:
- Capture/train one actor
- Build a mock black power armor out of cardboxes
- Spread a rumor about some very elusive marine in a black power armor
- Leave the actor in some open place
- Wait
- Bombard the hell out of the place when the dark angel shows up
First of all anyone who thinks the universe needs to be more realistic or lose the necrons , tyranids or generally hates on powerarmour should just go play historical. Seriously, go take your ww1 and play a ww1 game. No? Ok, then your here to travel space and fight space aliens and robots.
I'd exalt your post a hundred times if I could for this alone.
Realism is the death of 40k, and anyone who doesn't like the lack of realism in 40k should go play a different game rather than try and make this one shittier.
First of all anyone who thinks the universe needs to be more realistic or lose the necrons , tyranids or generally hates on powerarmour should just go play historical. Seriously, go take your ww1 and play a ww1 game. No? Ok, then your here to travel space and fight space aliens and robots.
Second each space marine chapter has its own fluff and can be interesting and fitting or uninteresting not fitting. Surely a blanket statement like DKOK > (ALL) SM is meant to troll and cause anger among the community.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers and a pet project of the forgeworld designers. That isn't to say they are not a cool force or they have no place!
Your "Muh favourite army is better then yours" thread is really childish.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
First of all anyone who thinks the universe needs to be more realistic or lose the necrons , tyranids or generally hates on powerarmour should just go play historical. Seriously, go take your ww1 and play a ww1 game. No? Ok, then your here to travel space and fight space aliens and robots.
Second each space marine chapter has its own fluff and can be interesting and fitting or uninteresting not fitting. Surely a blanket statement like DKOK > (ALL) SM is meant to troll and cause anger among the community.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers and a pet project of the forgeworld designers. That isn't to say they are not a cool force or they have no place!
Your "Muh favourite army is better then yours" thread is really childish.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
Spoiler:
Look at that glorious elite fighting force, marching across terrain with numerous cover options in napoleonic formation, not bothering to even take cover like the separatists they're fighting.
Spoiler:
Look, more glorious elite forces abandoning good positions of cover to engage the enemy at point-blank range in glorious marching formation, even using extremely advanced volley lines! Clearly an elite fighting force that would not be out of place and outdated even in WWII, which is what Star Wars combat is heavily inspired by.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
The guys who write these scenes for Starwars have the same problem as the guys who write the fluff for 40k.
Inconsistent and ranges from somewhat sensible to plain stupid. How those clones got so close to the droids in those formations alive is beyond me.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
The guys who write these scenes for Starwars have the same problem as the guys who write the fluff for 40k.
Inconsistent and ranges from somewhat sensible to plain stupid. How those clones got so close to the droids in those formations alive is beyond me.
Decent armor and the fact that the cheaply made battle droids aren't exactly crack shots. Do remember that the battle droids were made enmass to Swarm enemies backed by a few elite units.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
The guys who write these scenes for Starwars have the same problem as the guys who write the fluff for 40k.
Inconsistent and ranges from somewhat sensible to plain stupid. How those clones got so close to the droids in those formations alive is beyond me.
The CGI series and EP. 3 were better about that. Battle of Felucia, Mygeeto, Utapau and Kashykk had more sensible infantry deployment.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
The guys who write these scenes for Starwars have the same problem as the guys who write the fluff for 40k.
Inconsistent and ranges from somewhat sensible to plain stupid. How those clones got so close to the droids in those formations alive is beyond me.
Decent armor and the fact that the cheaply made battle droids aren't exactly crack shots. Do remember that the battle droids were made enmass to Swarm enemies backed by a few elite units.
You dont need to be a crack shot to hit walls of men who clearly are not capable of taking laser shots despite their armour. Also the amount of ordinance in that battle was huge. Any commander would absolutely love to see waves of men running across ground like that with all the supports and soldiers standing their shooting them. If the droids miss massed clones walking forward in blocks like that, then they where not a threat to the galaxy at all. Numbers or not.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
The guys who write these scenes for Starwars have the same problem as the guys who write the fluff for 40k.
Inconsistent and ranges from somewhat sensible to plain stupid. How those clones got so close to the droids in those formations alive is beyond me.
The CGI series and EP. 3 were better about that. Battle of Felucia, Mygeeto, Utapau and Kashykk had more sensible infantry deployment.
Yea, if the Dysney movies manage to get me back into starwars I may look at these.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
I did. The CGI series largely portrays them as morons who actively practice Napoleonic warfare to the point they even sometimes fight in marching formation. It doesn't help their commanders were peace officers and not military generals.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
I did. The CGI series largely portrays them as morons who actively practice Napoleonic warfare to the point they even sometimes fight in marching formation. It doesn't help their commanders were peace officers and not military generals.
True. Why they used Jedi as generals rather than shock troops is strange. During the Battle of Geonosis the Jedi used Clone Commandos like Line Infantry which cost them thousands.
But the Clone Troopers do not wage war like the DKoK. The way they win war maybe stupid and dated, I'll concede that, but they don't drown their opponents in corpses. It's just that their enemies are so incompetent that block formations somehow work against them.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
Except the Poles were still a competent lethal fighting force.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
If you watched the same battle of geonosis that I watched I am pretty sure I saw a mass charge across an open field. Dkok are clones that charge across no mans land, clone troopers are clones that charge across no mans land. No similarities at all.
Battle of Geonosis, Thule, Rhen Var and Hypori off the top of my head depict this style of war but that's not their MO. Most sources show them fighting like WW2 infantry rather than the DKoK. Watch the CGI series and EP. 3 for this type of warfare.
I did. The CGI series largely portrays them as morons who actively practice Napoleonic warfare to the point they even sometimes fight in marching formation. It doesn't help their commanders were peace officers and not military generals.
True. Why they used Jedi as generals rather than shock troops is strange. During the Battle of Geonosis the Jedi used Clone Commandos like Line Infantry which cost them thousands.
But the Clone Troopers do not wage war like the DKoK. The way they win war maybe stupid and dated, I'll concede that, but they don't drown their opponents in corpses. It's just that their enemies are so incompetent that block formations somehow work against them.
That's a given. You could give B1's guass weapons and they'd still be utterly worthless. They're something Ewoks could beat without plot shields.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
Except the Poles were still a competent lethal fighting force.
But the weren't. They had a choice to fight a 2 front war, or retreat. They retreated.
Spoiler:
Facing a second front, the Polish government concluded the defence of the Romanian Bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered an emergency evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania.
Ashiraya wrote: Swastakowey, you would probably like Mass Effect, or possibly Titanfall. 40K really does not seem like your thing.
I didnt mind Mass Effect. Titan fall is not me. Hate FpS games 99% of the time
I do like the 40k for the aesthetic and freedom to make the setting as I please. So 40k is for me provided I avoid any cannon. For example my go to IG book is the 3rd edition codex. Which has some great stuff in there.
Sillycybin wrote: Wow this thread is infuriating...
[…]
Second each space marine chapter has its own fluff and can be interesting and fitting or uninteresting not fitting. Surely a blanket statement like DKOK > (ALL) SM is meant to troll and cause anger among the community.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers and a pet project of the forgeworld designers. That isn't to say they are not a cool force or they have no place!
Your "Muh favourite army is better then yours" thread is really childish.
So, you missed the fact that this thread was actually posted by some marine fanboy to say that marines are better than DKoK (and not the other way), did you not?
Personally, I like the DKoK more than any marines chapter ever made, and I think it will be so until GW makes the Claws of the Underground canon, i.e. the space wolves, but with every wolf-stuff replaced by mole-stuff. I want some marines riding on moles, some were-mole, etc!
(And then again, if we get an Imperial Guard regiment of mole-men, it could be even better.)
Ashiraya wrote: Swastakowey, you would probably like Mass Effect, or possibly Titanfall. 40K really does not seem like your thing.
I didnt mind Mass Effect. Titan fall is not me. Hate FpS games 99% of the time
I do like the 40k for the aesthetic and freedom to make the setting as I please. So 40k is for me provided I avoid any cannon. For example my go to IG book is the 3rd edition codex. Which has some great stuff in there.
I was talking more about the settings. Both Titanfall and Mass Effect are more 'realistic' interpretations of the future. 40K, not so much. Mass Effect and Titanfall at least have believable explanations for why their things work.
First of all anyone who thinks the universe needs to be more realistic or lose the necrons , tyranids or generally hates on powerarmour should just go play historical. Seriously, go take your ww1 and play a ww1 game. No? Ok, then your here to travel space and fight space aliens and robots.
Second each space marine chapter has its own fluff and can be interesting and fitting or uninteresting not fitting. Surely a blanket statement like DKOK > (ALL) SM is meant to troll and cause anger among the community.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers and a pet project of the forgeworld designers. That isn't to say they are not a cool force or they have no place!
Your "Muh favourite army is better then yours" thread is really childish.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
As I recall they were intentionally in open ground in the second picture.
Spoiler:
Look at that glorious elite fighting force, marching across terrain with numerous cover options in napoleonic formation, not bothering to even take cover like the separatists they're fighting.
Spoiler:
Look, more glorious elite forces abandoning good positions of cover to engage the enemy at point-blank range in glorious marching formation, even using extremely advanced volley lines! Clearly an elite fighting force that would not be out of place and outdated even in WWII, which is what Star Wars combat is heavily inspired by.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
What? For the time the Clones had nice kit and vehicles.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
Except the Poles were still a competent lethal fighting force.
But the weren't. They had a choice to fight a 2 front war, or retreat. They retreated.
Spoiler:
Facing a second front, the Polish government concluded the defence of the Romanian Bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered an emergency evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania.
Wiki
Since when was understanding that you could not win and so instead chose to retreat in order to preserve your forces (which would enable them to join up with other allied forces later) bad?
A pilot in one of the Polish squadrons in the RAF shot down more enemy planes in the Battle of Britain than any other. They were definitely not incompetent.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers.
There's not set fluff saying they are clones. just ideas.
How are they anything like the Clone Troopers? Clone Troopers are a well equipped elite corps that wins through superior skill in battle and tactics rather than sheer attrition.
The clone were Elite and well equipped as the Polish army in ww2.
Except the Poles were still a competent lethal fighting force.
But the weren't. They had a choice to fight a 2 front war, or retreat. They retreated.
Spoiler:
Facing a second front, the Polish government concluded the defence of the Romanian Bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered an emergency evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania.
Wiki
Since when was understanding that you could not win and so instead chose to retreat in order to preserve your forces (which would enable them to join up with other allied forces later) bad?
The Polish squadrons in the RAF shot down more enemy planes in the Battle of Britain than any other. They were definitely not incompetent.
Not to mention that Polish resistance forces fashioned flamethrowers out of the junk they found lying around that were capable of killing Panzer tanks.
Not to mention that Polish resistance forces fashioned flamethrowers out of the junk they found lying around that were capable of killing Panzer tanks.
any Flame based weapon could "Kill" a panzer, quite quickly might I add. the Russians would use molotov cocktails in replace of AT grenades.
Since when was understanding that you could not win and so instead chose to retreat in order to preserve your forces (which would enable them to join up with other allied forces later) bad?
I didn't say they were incompetent. They made a choice that relied on luck. (When I say luck, I mean that USA and Britain/France were the only countries in the war that wouldn't shoot them on site.
The Polish squadrons in the RAF shot down more enemy planes in the Battle of Britain than any other. They were definitely not incompetent
this quote shows the skills and luck this individual pilot had, not what his original army could do. Albert Einstein was German and helped create Nuclear weapons. But German on itself didn't, mind you they were close to it.
Also, do you comprehend just how difficult it is to use a Molotov?
You don't just throw them at the tank and the flames sink in the cracks and burn the crew. You have to apply Molotov to Exhaust Pipe.
Or the drivers hatch, or the Copula, or anywhere on the engine exhaust vents. (which we were not protected and quite large and exposed)
And the actual use of a Molotov isn't hard to use at all... I'm not sure what you're confusing it with. Any jury rigged bottle gasoline/petrol or a napalm-like mixture, with some motor oil added, and usually a source of ignition such as a burning cloth wick held in place by the bottle's stopper.
First of all anyone who thinks the universe needs to be more realistic or lose the necrons , tyranids or generally hates on powerarmour should just go play historical. Seriously, go take your ww1 and play a ww1 game. No? Ok, then your here to travel space and fight space aliens and robots.
Second each space marine chapter has its own fluff and can be interesting and fitting or uninteresting not fitting. Surely a blanket statement like DKOK > (ALL) SM is meant to troll and cause anger among the community.
Third DKoK plot is about as original as samurai jack Draigo. They are cut and paste clonetroopers from starwars mashed with ww1 soldiers and a pet project of the forgeworld designers. That isn't to say they are not a cool force or they have no place!
Your "Muh favourite army is better then yours" thread is really childish.
Far from it,
I never asked for the entire universe to become more realistic simply for "humans " to be more relatable, and it's obvious this thread has taken a turn for the worst long ago...
I will again state;
There are so many rich stories of human and mortal interaction with a grimdark verse with impossible odds.
The reason DKOK runs me up the wrong way, is that by making them so inhuman that they've become more robotic unfeeling and ultimately somehow more mentally stable for warfare than space marines.. Which are supposedly better in every way.
I was simply commenting that I find DKOK fluff disingenuous to the franchise,
But like most forums amongst our kind people have assumed much from the title, read little of the intervening text, taken other peoples words out of context, thrown the word TROLL around for good measure just in case anyone thought you could have friendly if not civil conversation with strangers on the interwebs, now if you don't mind I have youtubes of cats to watch.
Seriously though, if you do not like the opinion, and if the fact there is thread that voices opinions that run counter to yours INFURIATES you so much, feel free not to join in.. I'm sure you could use LESS stress in your life.
And the actual use of a Molotov isn't hard to use at all... I'm not sure what you're confusing it with. Any jury rigged bottle gasoline/petrol or a napalm-like mixture, with some motor oil added, and usually a source of ignition such as a burning cloth wick held in place by the bottle's stopper.
All of which were incredibly hard to find during the war..
Not to mention simple tasks get more than a little harder when your trying to keep you head down at the same time...
Reading journals from Australian front of Gallipoli lately, it was suprisingly difficult to take a gak anywhere but a tunnel, even trenches were often not as deep as the movies and photos lead us to believe.. If it's that hard to take a gak.. If hate to be the guy everyone is counting on to NOT waste the last of the oil you could siphon out of the motor bike with ought leaving it in-operable
All of which were incredibly hard to find during the war..
Not to mention simple tasks get more than a little harder when your trying to keep you head down at the same time...
Reading journals from Australian front of Gallipoli lately, it was suprisingly difficult to take a gak anywhere but a tunnel, even trenches were often not as deep as the movies and photos lead us to believe.. If it's that hard to take a gak.. If hate to be the guy everyone is counting on to NOT waste the last of the oil you could siphon out of the motor bike with ought leaving it in-operable
Not as hard to find then a Anti-Tank weapon. And of course everything is harder when you're trying not to get shot.
either Throwing a grenade (or cocktail) to using a AT weapon. Simple tasks as just thinking strait become hard when bullets wiz by your head.
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how you other worlders just love to grab those models while I have to deal with inflated prices, enormous shipping prices and everything else
