Death Corp > Space marine... *hangs head in shame*

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**Inquisitor Bob**

What the feth is with the fluff for Death Corps of Krieg...
I mean... I get the part they're supposed to be BADASS

but in all honesty, they're just human...
in RL they've tried to create soldiers like DCoK... and it ended... badly.. these guys weren't even functioning humans never-the-less functioning soldiers...

Not only that.. But the original Krieg citizens that were hardened up by killing their own families and people.. they're all dead..
Yeah... you heard me...
DEAD... yeah that's right D E A D
It's been a while and the only troops they have to replenish their ranks are conscripts.. and well... randoms held at gun point to go from slobs to super-soldiers... that's worked well in the past... right??

Seriously Adeptus Astartes get taken away (mostly voluntarily albeit mind-washed) from pre-pubescence/pubescence and re-written from a genetic level.. mechanically mind-wiped/ rewritten..
and they don't get HALF the hard-core fluff that DCoK get....WHAT THE FETH

**nedTCM**

Isn't all of their fluff pretty much, we went in with a 50 million guys to save a planet of 10 billion citizens. When it is over, we have lost 45 million. 9.5 billion civilians dead. All cities leveled. Planet no longer suited for life, but the enemy is dead so victory. In most of the fluff all the guard forces are seen as pretty tough, but they always take a lot of deaths. DKOK especially practically use the Zap Brannigan manual for warfare.

With Space Marines, its a few guys take on an army and break their backs. Guard mops up and drinks tea. I don't see how that makes DKOK > SM

**Furyou Miko**

Because the Marines are written for children and the DKoK are written for adults.

**The Home Nuggeteer**

nedTCM wrote:
Isn't all of their fluff pretty much, we went in with a 50 million guys to save a planet of 10 billion citizens. When it is over, we have lost 45 million. 9.5 billion civilians dead. All cities leveled. Planet no longer suited for life, but the enemy is dead so victory. In most of the fluff all the guard forces are seen as pretty tough, but they always take a lot of deaths. DKOK especially practically use the Zap Brannigan manual for warfare.

With Space Marines, its a few guys take on an army and break their backs. Guard mops up and drinks tea. I don't see how that makes DKOK > SM

you are mistaken, guard or a pdf gets into serious dung, starts to solve the situation and the sm show up and take all the credit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tea is optional and is hard to drink when being killed.

**Wyzilla**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Because the Marines are written for children and the DKoK are written for adults.

I'd consider it the opposite because a small child can write the DKOK, given that they lack any character at all. Meanwhile Astartes can have actual emotion put into them for a grabbing story, even center it on a trashuman/posthuman message. The DKOK however are simply a clone army with no character, no emotion, and just, well nothing. The only good stories about the DKOK don't even focus on the DKOK, the DKOK are used as a setting, not characters. That one story where they fought the Necrons and got stomped comes to mind.

But yeah, DKOK don't even work, they're less bloody feasible than Space Marines simply because emotionally dead/broken people make for a gakky army.

**Vaktathi**

I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post

Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.

They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.

I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.

**Inky**

Tbh I think that space marines are a much better 'character' than the DKoK are. Everything about the kriegies is just seeming like a 12 year old would write it, and although SM are no way balanced and varied characters, at least there's reason for alteration between individual SMs of the same chapter to have vastly differing personalities, with DK it's pretty much Hard-Hardarse-Hardcore as the varients of personality. They'd make a fabulous setting, but as characters or as a standalone theme, the WW1 futility style thinking would wear a bit thin (and this is coming from a ww1 poetry nerd)

**Wyzilla**

Vaktathi wrote:
I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post

Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.

They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.

I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.

Except they're literally all the same person. The DKOK are just as bad as the Tyranids, only I've actually seen genestealers who showed more emotion and character than a Krieger, who are little more than boring robots.

**Psienesis**

And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

**BlaxicanX**

The DKoK are for people who are too hipster to come out of the closet and admit they like Space Marines.

They're basically just weaker, dumber Black Templars.

**Void__Dragon**

Inquisitor Bob wrote:
What the feth is with the fluff for Death Corps of Krieg...
I mean... I get the part they're supposed to be BADASS

but in all honesty, they're just human...
in RL they've tried to create soldiers like DCoK... and it ended... badly.. these guys weren't even functioning humans never-the-less functioning soldiers...

Not only that.. But the original Krieg citizens that were hardened up by killing their own families and people.. they're all dead..
Yeah... you heard me...
DEAD... yeah that's right D E A D
It's been a while and the only troops they have to replenish their ranks are conscripts.. and well... randoms held at gun point to go from slobs to super-soldiers... that's worked well in the past... right??

Seriously Adeptus Astartes get taken away (mostly voluntarily albeit mind-washed) from pre-pubescence/pubescence and re-written from a genetic level.. mechanically mind-wiped/ rewritten..
and they don't get HALF the hard-core fluff that DCoK get....WHAT THE FETH

They're not.

Ignore the incredibly petty and jealous Marine haters in this thread.

Space Marines on average are better in every objective way than the Death Korps.

**Vaktathi**

Wyzilla wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I think that's the first time someone was actually serious about the emotional depths of Space Marines in a post

Anyway, the DKoK don't lack character, you just missed it.

They have their own extreme version of the Imperial cult, they seek to martyr themselves to atone for, and redeem, the sins of their ancestors. They fought a terrible centuries long war and destroyed their cultural heritage to achieve victory, forging a new culture basically devoted to martyring themselves in defense of the Imperium. Their death in battle redeems the soul of one of their ancestors who turned their back on the Imperium. The soldiers of the DKoK are fatalistic and grim because their beliefs hold that death in service is not only necessary, but indeed is a good and right thing to save the souls and honor of those that failed. Their entire society is built around this concept.

I'd highly suggest people read IA:V and Dead Men Walking.

Except they're literally all the same person. The DKOK are just as bad as the Tyranids, only I've actually seen genestealers who showed more emotion and character than a Krieger, who are little more than boring robots.

That's kinda the point. They're not supposed to have individual character. Everything about them is supposed to be from the collective whole, not from the individual. Their fluff goes into that, hence why individual awards for bravery and whatnot aren't really a thing amongst the DKoK. Individually they are faceless cogs, it's their nature as a collective that has character and is interesting.

They're the ultimate expression of the 40k universe as every single rulebook has introduced it.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

**Wyzilla**

Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.

**jhe90**

Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.

They have a place, when you need unyielding troops there perfect, they have a iron will, they will not retreat, they can lose 90% of men and still advance, if the line must be held they will hold or die in the attempt.

May not be best for some tasks but they excel in others like seige and massed assults on positions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I challenge you to find anything more grim dark than the death korps.

The name is a sign on it's a own.

**Psienesis**

Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.

You say "net loss" like it's a bad thing. The Death Korps are *looking* to die. They do not want to live. They are looking to die fighting the Emperor's enemies. The martyr's death pays the Emperor back, in a tiny little bit, for the sins of their ancestors.

**Wyzilla**

jhe90 wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
And that is why the Death Korps is so badass and grimdark. They are a planetary population bred specifically for war. They have Commissars not to make them face the enemy, but to prevent them from throwing their lives away in fixed-bayonet charges against the enemy.

That's not badass. That's logistical incompetence. Actual good Guardsmen are Cadians. If anything the Death Korps are probably just a net loss.

They have a place, when you need unyielding troops there perfect, they have a iron will, they will not retreat, they can lose 90% of men and still advance, if the line must be held they will hold or die in the attempt.

May not be best for some tasks but they excel in others like seige and massed assults on positions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I challenge you to find anything more grim dark than the death korps.

The name is a sign on it's a own.

Anything Lovecraft. DKOK are just meh.

Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

**Psienesis**

Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.

Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.

Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.

**Furyou Miko**

Wyzilla wrote:
Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

The Elysians... who have never won a fluff war?

**Psienesis**

Even the ones they do win, they're killed to a man.

**Ironclad Warlord**

They're basically just weaker, dumber Black Templars.

Didn't these guys fuckup the siege of Vraks getting beat up by a poorly organized undermanned militia only to be saved by the Space Marines?

**Psienesis**

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
They're basically just weaker, dumber Black Templars.

Didn't these guys fuckup the siege of Vraks getting beat up by a poorly organized undermanned militia only to be saved by the Space Marines?

No? The rebels of Vraks were well-trained, well-armed and well-supplied. An actual army in all but name.

**Vaktathi**

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
They're basically just weaker, dumber Black Templars.

Didn't these guys fuckup the siege of Vraks getting beat up by a poorly organized undermanned militia only to be saved by the Space Marines?

The millions strong militia in a fortified citadel that had never been breached in thousands of years (and which no SM chapter would agree to aid in attacking) with enough equipment, weapon, and vehicle stores to equip hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments, that also had Alpha Legion support.

Eventually the DA's show up years after the war began and destroyed the spaceport many miles from the major frontlines or the Citadel itself, promptly lost a third of their chapter and then left. Later the Red Scorpions showed up to hold and stabilize a breach in the enemy line long enough for the IG to push through. Then later you had Titans and Traitor Titans and lots of CSM's and eventually Daemons show up.

**TheCustomLime**

I don't think the DKoK are necessarily dumber than the Templars. At least they have the sense to use artillery and ranged weaponry over just running things.

I just question why they keep giving the Korps tanks. They don't value their lives in the least and thus they make for poor tankers. They'll put their vehicles in unnecessary risk resulting in high losses.

**Psienesis**

Pretty sure Kreig produces its own tanks.

**TheCustomLime**

Nope. A Forgeworld called Lucious (I butchered the spelling) makes their stuff.

**Psienesis**

If you say so, their Lexi article (lengthy as it is) doesn't mention off-world support.

Lexicanum wrote:During the rebellion on Krieg the increasingly under-equipped militia began to create their own combat vehicles, often variants of civilian vehicles which were heavily modified. This led to the creation of many unique vehicles such the Götterdämmerung, the Blitzen, the Bruennhilde, the Siegfried and the Ragnarok. Since the war's conclusion these vehicles have continued to serve in limited fashion in other conflicts, such as the Baran War.[6]

For the most part Death Korps siege and armoured regiments make use of the Leman Russ Battle Tank and its variants, including the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Executioner, Conqueror, Eradicator, Punisher and Annihilator, with preference towards siege tanks such as the Demolisher and Thunderer. Even the Destroyer is used by Krieg units. These tanks are often heavily modified so as to better survive the toxic, trench-crossed battlefield, typically with Dozer Blades, trench rails, and additional filters to prevent the poisonous atmosphere from affecting the crew or engine[2e]

Siege regiments do not normally use the ubiquitous Chimera for transport, instead preferring the Gorgon to transport infantry across no-man's land when necessary, while command and grenadier squads often use the Centaur.[2c] Hades Breaching Drills are also used to circumvent trench lines. However, other formations such as armoured regiments will employ the Chimera and its variants the Salamander Command and Salamander Scout, along with the Sentinel.[7] Other vehicles used by Death Korps regiments of all types include the Hydra, Hellhound and Cyclops, while the Atlas and Trojan provide noncombat support. Super-heavy support includes the Malcador and Macharius and their variants, plus the Baneblade, Shadowsword, Stormsword, and Stormblade and the rare Minotaur.[8]

**Swastakowey**

Psienesis wrote:
Lovecraft isn't grimdark at all. He's gothic dark, and not particularly grim, just fatalistic.

Robert Chambers is grim, but not grimdark.

Also no, just because you need to lay siege or assault a fortified position does not mean you want incompetent lemmings who throw themselves at the enemy with no care for their own lives. That's how you lose[i] a battle, and there's a reason why armies like the DKOK in real life never really were that good. Elysians and Cadians are far superior alternatives to the DKOK.

You missed the point where it is the Commissars of the DKOK that prevent them from doing such things, which creates what is basically an anvil that the forces of the enemy can throw itself against, time and time again, only to break and scatter when the Death Korps does what the Imperial Guard is supposed to do: Die standing up. Though they may suffer horrendous casualties, they do not break. They do not bend. The Death Korps holds the line.

How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?

A somewhat serious question. Im also one of those who dislike the Death Corps for many reasons. Of all the amazing possibilities they had with WW1 themes they chose that horrid backstory? Just seems like wasted potential. But thats my opinion. (obviously).

**Psienesis**

How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?

Because getting shot by your Commissar for failure to obey orders is not a martyr's death. It really is that simple.

The DKOK is highly, highly trained. They, like Cadians, begin training for the Guard from birth. They supply the IG with fifty million soldiers a year.

**Swastakowey**

Psienesis wrote:
How do commissars work in an army where its pretty much socially required you die at the hands of the enemy? What does he even threaten them with? "i'll ensure you live if you charge!"?

Because getting shot by your Commissar for failure to obey orders is not a martyr's death. It really is that simple.

The DKOK is highly, highly trained. They, like Cadians, begin training for the Guard from birth. They supply the IG with fifty million soldiers a year.

Ignoring the stupidly high amount of soldiers a year, the commissar thing makes sense. Should have thought it through properly...

**TheCustomLime**

Lexicanum sez:

"Lucius is a Forge World and is home to the Legio Astorum Titan Legion (AKA the "Warp Runners"). It also is the place of origin of the Macharius-class super-heavy battle tank .The Lucius forges supply weapons and equipment to neighbouring Krieg, for the many Death Korps regiments raised on that planet. Lucius's forge is also well-known for producing the Lucius Pattern Warhound Scout Titan and Lucius Pattern Drop Pod".