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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .

Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side

Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.

The SM's suffer the same problems that Superman does these days. They're always shown as having an answer to everything, and always end up winning, often through some of the most contrived or ridiculous of circumstances. They're simply amp'd up to match whatever it is they're facing. While a common thing in fiction, and not unique to GW Space Marines (as I noted, Superman suffers from the same issue and has been struggling to remain relevant/interesting for decades now), they are by far the worst abusers of this in the 40k universe.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)

Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .

Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side

Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.

In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.

There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.

If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .

Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side

Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.

In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.

There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.

If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.

Probably because most of that is older fluff where they actually cared to give sides meaningful wins and losses, black templar being as old as they are pretty much in that category.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
One is a bunch of dudes who die horribly as part of their tactics, the other is a bunch of dudes who might well win every battle they're in and still be losing, due to the immensity of the Galaxy.

Do you know what is cool about a bunch of dudes that win every battle because they are so overpowered? Me neither .

Do you know what is cool about complaining about things that don't happen? Me neither. If I pretended that all the times the Imperial Guard lose fights or battles never happened the Imperial Guard would look dumb too.

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Space Marines need to be "overpowered" because the things they fight are as well. There's no whining about how broken Psykers are, or how silly it is that Eldar have lightning-fast reflexes, or that the Orks don't ever give up and just grow bigger the more they fight. That's just as over the top, but it's accepted as part of the background, but God forbid Space Marines succeed at anything, the darn dirty Mary Sues. Similary, the Imperial Guard, who also fight the same enemies, compensate for their relative lack of quality (not saying they're bad or incompetent, only that on a per soldier basis they're inferor to most of the foes discussed) by having numbers on their side

Probably because the Eldar get punked around half the time they show up, and the Orks are butchered in near infinite numbers. Psykers blow their heads off all the time or are similarly defeated. These factions also aren't portrayed as being amazing at everything and thrown into multiple, often contradictory, roles. At least, not anything like the SM's are.

In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump. The only victory the Black Templars have had that I can think of that wasn't incredibly hard-fought, for example, was the Purging of Lastrati, and that's becuase everyone involved, including the Templars, thought they were on the same side, until the Templars deciced they weren't cool with human sacrifice in the Emperor's name.

There's plenty of fluff where Space Marines of all types suffer massive casualties (again, Armageddon), it's just completely ignored or generalized as "they always win". Space Marines are "amazing at everything" because you're looking at the best of them in their preferred roles. A Black Templar Sword Brother Terminator is going to be incredibly dangerous in melee, but he's not going to be able to snipe an Ork Warboss in the middle of battle, whereas Telion would, at the cost of being sub-par in a knifefight.

If one only looks at the strong sides of a faction they're going to come across as over the top. Look at the frequent bouts of "fighting" (for lack of a better word) the Tau fanbase is involved in.

Probably because most of that is older fluff where they actually cared to give sides meaningful wins and losses, black templar being as old as they are pretty much in that category.

The thing is though, in the Necron Codex Imotekh humiliates Helbrecht in a 1-on-1 melee duel (you know, the whole thing the Templars are supposed to do) and then manage to escape when next they meet, further taunting Helbrecht. In the Space Marine Codex, Dark Eldar pirates manage to run off with a score of Templar recruits and get away with it, despite the Templars launching an all-out assault to get them back.

It's not just Templars either. Calgar gets humiliated by the Swarmlord, Sicarius takes significant losses evacuating from Damnos, the Damocles Crusade turns into a bloody stalemate etc. There's plenty of fluff where Marines lose, it just "doesn't count" for one reason or another.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)

Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?

Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?

Yep, but as they're currently Martyred Ladies, they can't speak up for themselves.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)

Pretty much this, and I utterly loved "All's quiet on the Western Front" and most WW1 poetry, but Kriegiers just seem as though a 12 year old wrote most of their ideas.
They take the idea of the utter futility of war and idiocy of putting normal, functional people in such absurd and horrific circumstances and neuter it by removing any human face from those dying. Although that could be part of why you like them, the utter uniformity and conformity of them, it does make the entire thing a bit dull. They've also got a lot of people saying "HURR DURR, DEY B NAZIS" which is just boorish.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Take Helsreach as an example. It's generally accepted as some of, if not the best, Black Templars fluff ever created. The Marines (and the Imperial Guard, you know, those guys who apparently never get any credit for anything) win, but at terrible cost.

Ah yes. Helsreach. Talking of people who never get any credit for anything, does anyone other than Grimaldus even remember that there were three thousand Sisters of the Order of our Martyred Lady in that battle?

Yep, but as they're currently Martyred Ladies, they can't speak up for themselves.

Applying water to burns...

The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.

I always thought it was just for Added Alliterative Appeal, heh. But, 'Todenkorps" wouldn't have the 'black because its the colour of death' appeal that Death Corps has, I guess.

German Africa Corps is Deutsche Afrika Korps in German. Maybe they were basing it off of that?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.

For a few days I pronounced Korps exactly how its spelled, like it would be in German (pronouncing the p and s), and people gave me looks like I couldn't read so I stopped. Didn't sound as good anyway.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The only thing I dislike about the Kriegsmen is that they spell "Corps" with a K, "because German". It wouldn't be a problem if the whole name was German, but it isn't.

Todeskorps von Krieg would be their German version.
But GW gave up on translating names soooo
Maybe next time they call them Death Corps of War for example... you got your english and happy now. Right ?

Corps is from France IIRC. They used it and everybody copied it.

 1hadhq wrote:

Corps is from France IIRC. They used it and everybody copied it.

Latin technically, but yes.

 Vaktathi wrote:

The SM's suffer the same problems that Superman does these days.

Being far more popular and well-loved than 40k in its entirety?

I don't know about all that.

The comparison to Superman is exactly why whining about how strong Marines allegedly are has no value. There are Superman comics featuring an "overpowered" Superman that are critically and commercially better-acclaimed than any fluff ever to have the 40k logo stamped on it.

Crying about Marines crushing armies on their own have a lot less value when you consider the inspiration. Is The Iliad also a terrible twelve year old boy's power fantasy?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump.

Not quite my point. Really what I was getting at is, overwhelmingly, no matter how scary the thing put in front of them is, the SM's end up winning. They're fairly one-dimensional in that aspect.

In fact, for the BT's, a single loss was so devastating that it required a 5 year penitent crusade, and even in the end managed to avenge themselves. Defeat (especially permanent, unrecoverable defeat) is so rare as to be unthinkable, which begins to get boring fast. Even when they take heavy casualties, they almost never just get borked.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)

Are we playing the same game? I hesitate to bring it up again, but the one that starts out with the spiel about there being no peace, no progress, only slaughter and an eternity of carnage under the most cruel and bloody regime imagineable and how nobody will be missed?

Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."

Their fluff is pretty clear about the fact that they are specifically deployed to areas where casualties are expected to be horrific. There are lots of IG stories where IG units take near total casualties or are obliterated entirely. Instead of sacrificing other units that may have other valuable specializations, and which may not stay on the field if taking such casualties, when available they deploy the DKoK. The DKoK aren't the only IG units in those situations, they just have a reputation for being stout enough to rely upon and are frequently deployed when such situations are expected by higher commands.

We can use the Siege of Vraks as an example again. No SM's were willing to engage the Citadel, and while the Munitorum calculated that sustained Stormtrooper raids might collapse the heretic forces over the course of a century, they didn't want to wait that long. So they deployed the DKoK regiments as a blunt instrument to grind down the defenses and retake the world much faster but at a much higher cost because they had to directly confront the Citadel's defenses (which had never been breached up to that point). There's countless other 40k battles similar to that, where the IG are used as a blunt instrument and take horrendous casualties. The DKoK are just a particularly reliable formation of troops for such instances. But they aren't unique in engaging in such battles.

 Inky wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The DKoK fluff is messed up on so many levels. I get they are supposed to be übergrimdark, but they just ended up being so over the top grimdark that it is just plain silly. I just can't take them serious because of it, they are like a huge joke.
Their only redeeming quality is that they have the most awesome looking uniforms in all the IG (maybe second to the Vostroyans though)

Pretty much this, and I utterly loved "All's quiet on the Western Front" and most WW1 poetry, but Kriegiers just seem as though a 12 year old wrote most of their ideas.
They take the idea of the utter futility of war and idiocy of putting normal, functional people in such absurd and horrific circumstances and neuter it by removing any human face from those dying. Although that could be part of why you like them, the utter uniformity and conformity of them, it does make the entire thing a bit dull. They've also got a lot of people saying "HURR DURR, DEY B NAZIS" which is just boorish.

Again, I hate to keep having to hit on this, but lets examine the way the game intro's itself, the slogans GW uses for marketing, and the various phrases used to build the atmosphere of the 40k universe throughout the rulebooks and codex books.

Games Workshop wrote:

"For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and the master of a million worlds by the will of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed each day, and for whom blood is drunk and flesh is eaten. Human blood and human flesh- the stuff which the Imperium is made.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war."

"Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets Heresy"

"A weapon cannot substitute for Zeal."

"Happiness is a delusion of the weak."

"Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life."

"Perseverance and silence are the highest virtues."

"No man died in the Emperor's Service that died in vain."

"Thought begets Heresy; Heresy begets Retribution."

"It is better to die for the Emperor than live for yourself."

"The Martyr's grave is the keystone of the Imperium."

"Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise."

"You are not required to think, only to act."

"Reason is the cloak of Traitors."

"Thought for the day: Life is a prison, Death a release."

"The Emperor asks only that you obey."

"Innocence proves nothing."

"There is no time for peace. No respite. No forgiveness. There is only war!"

"Who is to judge what is right and what is wrong? Great and powerful foes surround us; unknown miscreants gnaw at us from within. We are threatened with total annihilation. In days such as these we can afford no luxury of morality.

Being the bright lights hide a multitude of horrors as would disgust and repel the most stout-hearted of men. So it is with determination and unflinching duty that we must face those vile and terrible things - for if not us, then who?

The creatures of the Warp have but one trait with which you need concern yourself - their undying contempt for the Emperor. It is your task to quell the rebellion they preach, and the only sure way is to destroy them utterly.

Cast out the mutant, the traitor, the heretic! For every enemy without there are a hundred within. Beware their secret clans and hidden ways. The only cult we do not abhor is that of the Emperor!"

"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt"

"Victory needs no explanation: Defeat allows none"

"A questioning servant is more dangerous than an ignorant Heretic"

"Hatred is the Emperor's greatest gift to Humanity"

"Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying degrees of guilt."

"The Emperor asks only that you Hate."

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

I mean...I hate to keep quoting these lines again...but really, Games Workshop presents the universe above and the DKoK are just too over the top for it?

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Being far more popular and well-loved than 40k in its entirety?

I don't know about all that.

The comparison to Superman is exactly why whining about how strong Marines allegedly are has no value. There are Superman comics featuring an "overpowered" Superman that are critically and commercially better-acclaimed than any fluff ever to have the 40k logo stamped on it.

Crying about Marines crushing armies on their own have a lot less value when you consider the inspiration. Is The Iliad also a terrible twelve year old boy's power fantasy?

Or we could consider the fact that they've had to "reboot" him multiple times in the last two decades and tried several different methods of changing his personality, all in a series of attempts to keep him relevant in the face of declining interest because he's so one-dimensional?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

In which case I'd posit that the problem is that people are looking at the best performances of all Chapters thrown together like some sort of massive lump.

Not quite my point. Really what I was getting at is, overwhelmingly, no matter how scary the thing put in front of them is, the SM's end up winning. They're fairly one-dimensional in that aspect.

In fact, for the BT's, a single loss was so devastating that it required a 5 year penitent crusade, and even in the end managed to avenge themselves. Defeat (especially permanent, unrecoverable defeat) is so rare as to be unthinkable, which begins to get boring fast. Even when they take heavy casualties, they almost never just get borked.

It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that. Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.

Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.

@Vaktathi
It's not that GW hasn't created a universe were the DKOK fit in.. It's that real humans don't work like that...
Each and evey person in the world believe that they're the main character of the story..
Creating a super soldier capable of beig only a piece of a whole takes YEARS of mental manipulation JUST to start..

It's unfeasable and ignorant to think that someone can be press-ganged by a visiting army.. (Non of which are the living descendants of the world they "hail from")
Only to be given a gas-mask and told "your a badass martyr that's only a number in this army of bad-asses that will die in gruesome ways in aproxamitaly 2weeks.."
Human mentality would have to be grown from birth to adjus to that.. And even then every second one would have a mental breakdown and have to be put down..
And that's before they see war..
It's pretty clear that the writers haven't heard of PTSD..
Or done any research on the mental effects of press-ganging..

 Vaktathi wrote:
Or we could consider the fact that they've had to "reboot" him multiple times in the last two decades and tried several different methods of changing his personality, all in a series of attempts to keep him relevant in the face of declining interest because he's so one-dimensional?

I guess you could if you wanted to sound ignorant, sure. Every long-running comic character has been rebooted several times. Comics are the modern greek myths. Numerous writers give their own interpretation or spin of a character. It's a feature of the medium, and to spin that to make it an objective flaw with any given character is disingenuous.

But here's a fact: All Star Superman (Just one comic) is more critically lauded than any fiction to ever come from GW or any associated brand, despite having a Superman that can punch apart planets. The same could be said of Kingdom Come. Or For the Man Who Has Everything. They're also all far smarter stories than any 40k work, critical and commercial appeal be damned.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.

The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.

Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.

My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.

Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.

Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
@Vaktathi
It's not that GW hasn't created a universe were the DKOK fit in.. It's that real humans don't work like that...
Each and evey person in the world believe that they're the main character of the story..
Creating a super soldier capable of beig only a piece of a whole takes YEARS of mental manipulation JUST to start..

Yes, and both the SM's and DKoK are trained for years, the DKoK from birth are raised to be soldiers.

It's unfeasable and ignorant to think that someone can be press-ganged by a visiting army.. (Non of which are the living descendants of the world they "hail from")
Only to be given a gas-mask and told "your a badass martyr that's only a number in this army of bad-asses that will die in gruesome ways in aproxamitaly 2weeks.."

That's not how the DKoK work...

Human mentality would have to be grown from birth to adjus to that.. And even then every second one would have a mental breakdown and have to be put down..

That sounds pretty much exactly like FW's background on the DKoK. Krieg loses huge numbers of trainees, only those that already make it past the grueling training and mental reconditioning ever make it into the Imperial Guard.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.

The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.

Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.

My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.

Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.

Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won

Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.

The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.

Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.

My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.

Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.

Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won

Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?

Warboss Thraka to his favorite Enemy Yarrick.

It happens once in a long while but it does.

Dont forget Brother-captain stern and M'kachen in the grey knight codex. Though they are marines so that might not be what youre after though.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


It's not that they lost, it's that Helbrecht got humiliated one-on-one against Imotekh and that in doing so they failed the Emperor. "Your honour is your life, let none dispute it" and all that.

The outcome of a singular close combat would hardly seem like a reason to commit the chapter to a years long Crusade, as opposed to an actual defeat.

Even when they managed to catch Imotekh completely by surprise it's an empty win, as Imotekh himself phases out and taunts Helbrecht further. The fact that they managed to capture Imotekh's flagship does nothing to change the fact that the Shrodinger VII campaign was a complete and utter failure.

My point was that such defeat was rare enough to spur the actions it did.

Damnos is a mess, Armageddon is a perpetual warzone, and the Tau are beating back Crusade after Crusade (although I'd argue that's where the real plot armour is at, but that's a different story). The "victories" of the Space Marines are hollow. Baal is currently under attack, the Crimson Fists are rebuilding from being almost completely wiped out, and Ghazghkull is getting away despite the Imperium winning A3 (or the Imperium is winning because he left, one of the two). Winning the battles is not the same thing as winning the war.

Nobody wins the war in the current timeline, they're all effectively "settings" to be left unresolved, only individual battles are won

Yes, a Captain losing a 1v1 duel and being spared is rare. By all rights Helbrecht should have died, but instead Imotekh humiliated him. Dying in service to the Emperor is noble, but being spared by a Xeno? Honestly, how often does someone defeat their enemy and then let him or her go in 40k?

Warboss Thraka to his favorite Enemy Yarrick.

It happens once in a long while but it does.

You proved his point. Thraka VS Yarrick is literally a one of a kind situation.

Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."

You still don't understand how the DKOK functions. The DKOK get those jobs because dying in battle with the Emperor's enemies is a martyr's death, which is exactly how every son and daughter of Krieg wants to go out.

As I've said half a dozen times in this thread so far, the reason the DKOK have Commissars is not to convince them to charge the enemy's emplaced guns, but to stop them from doing it until the artillery barrage has ended and the enemy guns have been "softened up".

 Psienesis wrote:

Yes, and even in a universe where there is only war, the DKoK are still way over the top. Suffering huge casualties is perfectly fine but the DKoK crank it up to such a point where it becomes silly. There is a difference between the 'the end justifies the means' and 'take the objective no matter the casualties' attitude of other IG regiments and the way the DKoK just wastes soldiers completely unneccesarily. The DKoK can't seem to get anything done without losing at least 80% of its combat strenght, and that is silly and wasteful. Human lifes may be the least expansive and most numerous resource the Imperium has at its disposal, but that does not mean it should be wasted. "Life is the Emperor's currency, spend it well."

You still don't understand how the DKOK functions. The DKOK get those jobs because dying in battle with the Emperor's enemies is a martyr's death, which is exactly how every son and daughter of Krieg wants to go out.

As I've said half a dozen times in this thread so far, the reason the DKOK have Commissars is not to convince them to charge the enemy's emplaced guns, but to stop them from doing it until the artillery barrage has ended and the enemy guns have been "softened up".

And easing the friction between other units/officers as death korps do unnerve or not quite work so well with other guards units. The comisars are there to rein in some of the more headstrong and fatalistic tendencies until the right moment. There loyal just need a guiding hand somewhat.

I keep hearing that we don't understand Krieg.. But to be honest are we reading the same books here?
You say their trained from birth? I've never read that, only stuff about them press-ganging abets they've "liberated".. That's not birth...
To be honest this conversation will probably be locked soon anyway since we're just going in circles.. The pro side just keep saying "that's not how Krieg work" and the con side keep saying "that's not how humans work"...
And that's just not how a constructive discussion works..

Who cares whether or not Krieg is realistic?

They exist in the same setting as sentient fungus that can make red cars go faster with their minds because they think they should.

What matters is whether or not they have a thematic place in the setting and the Death Korps of Krieg certainly do.

Krieg troops do not function as normal people, there hyper indoctrinated to feel they need to die to absolve sins hundreds off years old. That ain't normal thinking!
Compared to normal impirial citizens there odd, a reason why they need comisars to smooth between them and other regiments.