If so, then a Tau fire warrior is slightly taller than an imperial guard and a space marine is only slightly taller than a fire warrior.

The stuff isn't really scaled right. Really a Space Marine is much much taller than how the models represent them vs other models.

Some folks do 'true scale' conversions though so that their Marines look bigger and scale a little more appropriately to smaller models.

 djphranq wrote:
The stuff isn't really scaled right. Really a Space Marine is much much taller than how the models represent them vs other models.

Some folks do 'true scale' conversions though so that their Marines look bigger and scale a little more appropriately to smaller models.

A fun example is that Ghazghkull is in the region of 15-20 feet tall, but his model is not too much bigger than a 'umie.

Some of the vehicles are tiny (Land Raiders and Rhino come to mind), Space Marines are too short, Eldar are a little too short and the guns are too chunky.

I think the scaling issue may have a lot to do with the chunky Guardsmen, though. If you compare a human from a historical line to a Marine the sizing seems more accurate. The Marine certainly is bulkier by a country mile than the typical hummie.

I remember hearing somewhere that SM are the right size, but when they started to make other minis it was too hard to get them to fit the scale so they decided to just make them all slightly out of scale. (Though this could just be someone at GW trying to cover their mistakes).

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
I remember hearing somewhere that SM are the right size, but when they started to make other minis it was too hard to get them to fit the scale so they decided to just make them all slightly out of scale. (Though this could just be someone at GW trying to cover their mistakes).

Given that minis can range (with good detail) from 6mm to Titan scale, they were probably saying BS.

Completely and utterly screwed up. If the minis were actually the real scale and appearance of everything, W40K would look more like a horror show than it already is, with everything appearing to have been hit with an unhealthy dose of radiation poisoning. Space Marines are too short and don't appear to have a pelvis, Terminators have dislocated shoulders, Guardsmen have fething huge heads, Rhinos already can barely carry/can't carry a full squad of Space Marines, etc.

If GW ever claims their miniatures are to scale, just point and laugh at their pathetic attempt to dodge admitting that they can't scale anything to save their bloody lives.

They are scaled up to certain point: nobz are bigger than boyz, terminator bigger than space marine, etc. Of course vehicules are much smaller and bulky, humans are to big and eldar slightly to heavy. Most of those issues have to do for modeling reasons and capacity transport (its already hard enough to carry 2000 points of minis from a place to another, imagine if rhinos were three times larger). If you wanted really well scalded models, than their would be height and weight difference between members of the same unit (not to mention sex difference when it comes to guardsmen).

epronovost wrote:
They are scaled up to certain point: nobz are bigger than boyz, terminator bigger than space marine, etc. Of course vehicules are much smaller and bulky, humans are to big and eldar slightly to heavy. Most of those issues have to do for modeling reasons and capacity transport (its already hard enough to carry 2000 points of minis from a place to another, imagine if rhinos were three times larger). If you wanted really well scalded models, than their would be height and weight difference between members of the same unit (not to mention sex difference when it comes to guardsmen).

Tbh, it'd be hard to tell a male IG from a female IG at a distance:

Marines look ten times less dumb when sized up a bit. Normally their heads are colossal which is bad.



Here is a good one.

I upscale some of my own as well, I lack the skill to make them big enough to be 'true scale' but they are at least bigger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thomas Kysting's Ultramarine Veterans from WH:V #4 are also excellent.

I've tried cramming terminators into a land raider to see how many would fit. My record is 0 because of the bases.

Games Workshop's heroic scale has nothing to do with true proportions or the size of the character the model portrays. Here's an example of a soldier next to a Cadian model.

Compare the size of the feet, oh dear. And the guns!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Compare the size of the feet, oh dear. And the guns!

I'd worry more about the head. That head is fething huge.

You do realize a Cerastus Knight Lancer miniature is taller than a Warhound.
A WARHOUND!

Are Imperial soldiers a good example of 'human' scale? I thought that to some degree that they were bulked up on various steroids/combat drugs and whatnot. That doesn't account for their heads I know but it might blow out their proportions otherwise?
Also I think I remember reading about space marines developing a form of gigantism whereby their heads are huge. Probably an attempt to explain the massive noggins on the early RT space marine models.

Heroic scale exaggerates a lot. It's not supposed to be true scale.

If Jes Godwin is telling the truth, Space Marines are basically the correct size (not proportions, but size). Other lines in the game have crept up larger over the years (compare my poor little weedy Praetorians to those steroidal Cadians).

People make 'Truescale' Marines not because Marines are supposed to be that big based on the scale, but because it's a lot easier to enlarge Marines to the appropriate relative size than it is to whittle down every model in your opponent's army to the right scale.

Now, the vehicles are on a different scale to the infantry,which is weird, but kind of understandable, since you were making a game and didn't want giant models--except now you have all sorts of giant models!


The proportions are a separate issue from size itself (as you could have poorly proportioned models of any scale). I know they are chunky and sort of goofy, but it their defense, look at that scale image of a soldier compared to a IG model. Can you imagine how fiddily it would be to assemble and paint and play with models with guns that thin? I know that military modelers do that sort of stuff all the time, but

1) Most of them don't paint up 100+ troops
2) None of them pack them up each week to take them to a club
3) They definitely don't plonk them down on a table and move them around making pew-pew noises.

The 'heroic' scale isn't GW incompetence, but a nod to GW aesthetics, the look of gaming on a tabletop (making significant parts of the model bigger for emphasis), and the realities of tabletop gaming stresses on models.

GW doesn't know how to scale models very well. If you think 10 Space Marine mini's can fit inside a Rhino ur funny.

 Harriticus wrote:
GW doesn't know how to scale models very well. If you think 10 Space Marine mini's can fit inside a Rhino ur funny.

See if you can fit 5 Ogryns into a Chimera.

In the 4th ed IG codex, only a Commissar could manage that.

I once heard that 40k miniatures are heroic scale, meaning larger/out-of-scale hands and heads. Possibly other bits are not true to scale.

I think, as far as I can tell, Orks are just about the only model that is in proportion with itself. Not accounting for size differences, though.

This question came to mind when I got a new bloodcrushers kit and measured up the sword to a space marine; if a space marine is 7" tall, then the sword must be 13" long!

As an example to models that get it right scale/proportion wise this is a Wargames Factory Apocolypse Survivor (really great models by the way).

Space marine are too short and tiny and tanks like leman Russ is to small to fit a crew of six it wrote in the codex

I find that the scale in the fluff changed and the models never caught up. Through out the years space marines in the fluff got bigger and bigger. At first Space Marines were no taller than any one else then around 2nd edition they made them on average between 6 and 7 feet tall with their armour, the only exception were the Blood Angels that due to a genetic issue they never grew bigger than an average human this lasted a while I think, now Space Marines are what 8 feet to 9 feet tall bigger for characters ,basically the fluff literally out grew the game

 Metaljunx wrote:
Space marine are too short and tiny and tanks like leman Russ is to small to fit a crew of six it wrote in the codex

I accept explanations of:

-Machine spirit
-2 man crew
-Tiny people
-Daemons


But the muhreenz are ridiculous in proportions.

Can't remember where I got it from, but the SM models are supposedly the right height as/is, but that the IG models are gargantuan for reasons of incompetence. I try to imagine the IG being closer to 15mm models.

Da Butcha wrote:
If Jes Godwin is telling the truth, Space Marines are basically the correct size (not proportions, but size). Other lines in the game have crept up larger over the years (compare my poor little weedy Praetorians to those steroidal Cadians).

People make 'Truescale' Marines not because Marines are supposed to be that big based on the scale, but because it's a lot easier to enlarge Marines to the appropriate relative size than it is to whittle down every model in your opponent's army to the right scale.

This is my understanding as well. But, oh good, the proportions. I understand the difficulties of proper proportion sculpted on that scale better than most, but seriously, those guardsmen heads and hands and guns, oh good the guns. Blarge :p

Humans and Tau Fire Warriors are suffering from scale issues. they should be much smaller and thinner proportionally compared to a marine.

I believe Jess Goodwin, when asked about this, said that marines aren't too small. Guardsmen are too big.

Look back to the 2nd Ed Goff Orks. They were basically doing squats, glutes perfectly parallel to the ground. FEEL THE BURN.

The Marines weren't much better, actually!

Most of GW miniatures use heroic scale where proportions are deliberately blown up for certain features of the depicted thing to make them stand out more. If you compare the Metal IG range to the current Cadians you will see that for example the mordian are a lot smaller in the body and look closer to normal proportions (although I feel the weapon is still a tad big on the miniatures) again if they were made to true scale imagine how often the little guys guns would break off or snap on particular areas where there just isn't enough material. The vehicles are also scaled to their appropriate factions in the sense that you can place a space marine next to the rhino and it would not be larger than it or look like at least one would be able to fit in it. Again they deliberately made the vehicles the size they are for more a practical reason. Think how big the rhino would have to be if you actually wanted it scaled so it could fit 10 tactical marines in it . I would hate lugging even a couple of them down to my local store for a game. As much as people like to bash GW they do know some stuff with regards to miniature production

Marines should be taller, going by the fluff.
As for poses, MFA is opposed to the epic poses GW like these days.

Vehicles are intentionally smaller than they should be. I think it's supposedly ~60%.

Marines are about 10-15% too small. However, I'm not convinced that the vehicles are drastically off scale. FW has listed measurements of most vehicles in the game, and it seems they are based on the same scale as the infantry; I find their numbers pretty credible. Real tanks are not as big people seem to think.

 Crimson wrote:
Marines are about 10-15% too small. However, I'm not convinced that the vehicles are drastically off scale. FW has listed measurements of most vehicles in the game, and it seems they are based on the same scale as the infantry; I find their numbers pretty credible. Real tanks are not as big people seem to think.

unless they need to carry 5-10 giant supersoldiers.

 Selym wrote:

unless they need to carry 5-10 giant supersoldiers.

Well, heroic proportions, bases and poses make hard to asses how much space the Marines would take in 'reality'. I'm sure the models would not fit (then again, ages ago I've seen ten marines modelled into the old, smaller, Rhino, so it could be possible...)

I said this in an another thread, but I repeat it here:
M113 is 4.86 metres and is meant for 13 people. It is pretty similar shape to the Rhino, but much smaller. FW lists Rhino to be 6.6 metres. Rhino is 1.4 times as long, 1.7 as wide and 2 times as tall (over four and half times the volume!) as M113. So it doesn't seem completely impossible to me that the Marines could fit.

The amount of space taken up by a seated Marine compared to a Guardsman is wildly different. A Marine's backpack alone is the equivalent of a Human torso. A Marine's shoulder pads make it at least a metre wide.
5 Marines side-by-side are getting close to the 6.6m length of a Rhino.

Since RT, GW has stated that their vehicles were scaled-down to fit on the table better.

 Skinnereal wrote:

Since RT, GW has stated that their vehicles were scaled-down to fit on the table better.

Then why they publish statistics of their vehicles which indicate that this is not the case?

 Crimson wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

Since RT, GW has stated that their vehicles were scaled-down to fit on the table better.

Then why they publish statistics of their vehicles which indicate that this is not the case?

Stats are fluff, where-as model sizes may not match existing models.

Games Workshop miniatures are designed to be heroically scale, meaning that parts of the model such as hands, heads, feet and weapons, with Cadian IG having this style more than others. This was done because said parts were too smaller and fragile to be properly used for 40k but improved material and casting technology means the older models look weirdly proportioned when compared to more modern styrene mouldings by Warlord and AFV club.

 Skinnereal wrote:

Stats are fluff, where-as model sizes may not match existing models.

I'm not sure I understood that sentence.

I think this is from some old WD, I'm not sure:


FW books have similar charts, and the numbers are pretty much the same. Leman Russ is a bit over 7 metres long (this is the length of the hull, as it doesn't vary between different variants.) The model is about 12 cm long. This is pretty exactly in scale with the infantry models. So I do not know where this idea that 40K vehicles are not to scale comes from; GW certainly doesn't seem to think so. Oh, and people who think Leman Russ is small, take a look at the measurements of some real tanks; it is not that small. (Chimera is huge though, which makes LR look small in comparison.)

Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale.

But maybe it is not so much the models that are faulty, than your idea of how big they should be? If you actually accepted the numbers the people who make the game give you, the scaling problem would be greatly lessened.

Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.

Design studio and FW seem to actually have pretty consistent scaling and their fluff figures fit that. It is the BL authors whose numbers are all over the place, thus messing up the picture.

(Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

How did you guess!

 Crimson wrote:

But maybe it is not so much the models that are faulty, than your idea of how big they should be? If you actually accepted the numbers the people who make the game give you, the scaling problem would be greatly lessened.

But I won't blindly 'accept numbers' while they are contested.

Design studio and FW seem to actually have pretty consistent scaling and their fluff figures fit that. It is the BL authors whose numbers are all over the place, thus messing up the picture.

Unfortunate then that BL is on the same level of canon, eh?

How did you guess!

Mostly because you, like me, have already picked your favourite cherries out of the 40K bush, and now you, like me, zealously defend your choice?

Well I think my cron warriors should be a LOT taller

Da Stormlord wrote:
Well I think my cron warriors should be a LOT taller

As you can see on my picture, I am inclined to agree. May just be their über-widelegged stance though.

I would love for this whole 'heroic scale' thing to be phased out.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

Spoiler:

Ohhh :\

Those marines are ginormous.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

Spoiler:

Ohhh :\

Those marines are ginormous.

I prefer the term 'appropriate'.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

Spoiler:

Ohhh :\

Those marines are ginormous.

I prefer the term 'appropriate'.

Ehh, these pictures may beg to differ...

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

Spoiler:

Ohhh :\

Those marines are ginormous.

I prefer the term 'appropriate'.

Ehh, these pictures may beg to differ...

Your pictures contradict one another.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines seem ~50% too small to me. Almost all races and units appear out of scale. Of course, scalings are contradictory. In one FW book, I think, Drop Pods are stated to actually be pretty small (Similar to tabletop size) whereas it's 'dozens of meters tall' in other places.


Ignoring the Battlesuit (I made it too small, fail on my part), something like this would be pleasant scale-wise, and would make for good-looking battles. (Apologies in advance, Crimson. You won't like this.)

Spoiler:

Ohhh :\

Those marines are ginormous.

I prefer the term 'appropriate'.

Ehh, these pictures may beg to differ...

Your pictures contradict one another.

Wait, how?

The pictures show a person's head being up the SM's chest.
The SM is the height of the armour, being far taller than a normal person.
So, no contradiction.

The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

Not as much as the models.
Anyway, everyone knows the Warp stretches people

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

I never said that nine feet is required to look intimidating.

I simply consider it the most aesthetically appropriate size.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

I never said that nine feet is required to look intimidating.

I simply consider it the most aesthetically appropriate size.

Fair enough

Is the size of a 40k model an accurate representation of their actual size?


No

 Crimson wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

Stats are fluff, where-as model sizes may not match existing models.

I'm not sure I understood that sentence.

I think this is from some old WD, I'm not sure:


FW books have similar charts, and the numbers are pretty much the same. Leman Russ is a bit over 7 metres long (this is the length of the hull, as it doesn't vary between different variants.) The model is about 12 cm long. This is pretty exactly in scale with the infantry models. So I do not know where this idea that 40K vehicles are not to scale comes from; GW certainly doesn't seem to think so. Oh, and people who think Leman Russ is small, take a look at the measurements of some real tanks; it is not that small. (Chimera is huge though, which makes LR look small in comparison.)

Looks at the main gun: 120mm smoothbore it shall be
Obviously not to blame on GW. Our real 120mm guns are just too small ...................

The specs are partially nicely imagined and added to a Leman Russ, but It doesn't fit the model 100%.

LR plastic GW kit:

Length = 120 mm ( 708 cm )
Width = 80 mm ( 486 cm )
Height = 70 mm ( 442 cm )
Ground clearance = 12 mm ( 45 cm )

If 12 mm are 45 cm, then 120 mm are 450 cm. So if the numbers would work as intended, a lenght of 708 cm ( fluff ) would translate to a 188 mm ( Model ). But the Model is only 120 mm.
The main offender here is the ground clearance. They got it wrong. The specs should say ~ 70 cm.
If 12 mm are 45 cm, then 442 cm are ~117 mm. But the LR from Track to top hatch is 70 mm.
If 12 mm would be 70 cm, then 442 cm would be ~758 mm. Closer to the real Model.

Yep, I'm sure the numbers do not match 100%. However, they seem to be mostly accurate if we assume that the tanks are in same scale as the the infantry. If 30mm Cadian is 175cm tall in 'reality' then 12cm tank model is seven metres long.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

I never said that nine feet is required to look intimidating.

I simply consider it the most aesthetically appropriate size.

Even still, the picture you made puts "Average height" guardsmen coming up to the marine's waist... by the ~9' scale that makes normal humans averaging 4.5' tall? the marines would have to be ~12' to match the real human height average male of 5'9"ish... Marines tower over regular folk, but they certainly arent double the height

Does anyone think that one day they will revist the scale and get it right? Would be a great way for GW to grab some more money.

Cambonimachine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

I never said that nine feet is required to look intimidating.

I simply consider it the most aesthetically appropriate size.

Even still, the picture you made puts "Average height" guardsmen coming up to the marine's waist... by the ~9' scale that makes normal humans averaging 4.5' tall? the marines would have to be ~12' to match the real human height average male of 5'9"ish... Marines tower over regular folk, but they certainly arent double the height

The picture is just a rough representation of the general idea.

I imagine them to be about half again as tall. Nine feet, that is.

Crimson did a few good scale images, I think he has one of a 10' Marine. So 9' is a foot shorter than that, comparable given that there is a measurement scale on the picture.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PastelAvenger wrote:
Does anyone think that one day they will revist the scale and get it right? Would be a great way for GW to grab some more money.

Strongly doubt it, especially since there is no 'right scale.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for scale lols: Rogal Dorn.



Pauldrons m8

In Ashiraya's picture the Marine is about ten feet, Eldar are eight and SoB six and half. Why everyone is a giant, and the Wraithlord is as big as an Imperial Knight, I do not understand.

Crimson wrote:In Ashiraya's picture the Marine is about ten feet, Eldar are eight and SoB six and half. Why everyone is a giant, and the Wraithlord is as big as an Imperial Knight, I do not understand.

Ashiraya wrote:
The picture is just a rough representation of the general idea.

I did not measure when I made the picture, I merely estimated. But you clearly do not mind such comparatively minor discrepiances given your quick way to handwave the 120mm LR cannon?

PastelAvenger wrote:
Does anyone think that one day they will revist the scale and get it right? Would be a great way for GW to grab some more money.

No, because even if it was right, people would refuse to believe it as it wouldn't match their headcanon.

 Crimson wrote:

PastelAvenger wrote:
Does anyone think that one day they will revist the scale and get it right? Would be a great way for GW to grab some more money.

No, because even if it was right, people would refuse to believe it as it wouldn't match their headcanon.

Agreed. Imagine how angry you would be.


No but seriously, there is no 'right' size, and no amount of repeating your opinion will make it objective.

There is no 'right size' when it comes to 40K canon, which is vast and contradictory, this is true. There however is pretty consistent scale which FW and the design studio uses. Now, I perfectly well understand that some people would prefer them to adhere to sizes from their favourite BL novel, it is a perfectly valid opinion. However, to say that vehicle scale is 'wrong' is just a lie or a misconception. The studio has said that Leman Russ is about seven metres long 'in real life', and the model is perfectly scaled to match that, same with the other vehicles. That some fan (or even a BL author) disagrees with their fluff is not really the design studio's problem, nor does it make the models wrongly scaled.

 Crimson wrote:
There is no 'right size' when it comes to 40K canon, which is vast and contradictory, this is true. There however is pretty consistent scale which FW and the design studio uses. Now, I perfectly well understand that some people would prefer them to adhere to sizes from their favourite BL novel, it is a perfectly valid opinion. However, to say that vehicle scale is 'wrong' is just a lie or a misconception. The studio has said that Leman Russ is about seven metres long 'in real life', and the model is perfectly scaled to match that, same with the other vehicles. That some fan (or even a BL author) disagrees with their fluff is not really the design studio's problem, nor does it make the models wrongly scaled.

The problem remains if there is any BL material at all disagreeing with it, since it equals the studio in canonicity.

Do you have any source on this btw?

 Crimson wrote:
The studio has said that Leman Russ is about seven metres long 'in real life', and the model is perfectly scaled to match that, same with the other vehicles. That some fan (or even a BL author) disagrees with their fluff is not really the design studio's problem, nor does it make the models wrongly scaled.

 Ashiraya wrote:

The problem remains if there is any BL material at all disagreeing with it, since it equals the studio in canonicity.

Yes it does, but BL cannot be consistent even within one book. It is absurd to expect GW to overhaul their entire model range based on what some BL author might randomly write on on that day. Now it would be nice if GW had stricter canon overseeing policy that forced consistency, but that obviously is not the case.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

The problem remains if there is any BL material at all disagreeing with it, since it equals the studio in canonicity.

Yes it does, but BL cannot be consistent even within one book. It is absurd to expect GW to overhaul their entire model range based on what some BL author might randomly write on on that day. Now it would be nice if GW had stricter canon overseeing policy that forced consistency, but that obviously is not the case.

Or if they just scrapped the rumour thing and said 'X is true, the rest is rumours and myths.'

I do not expect them to do such, but by stating that everything is canon they have backed themselves into a corner.

I do not expect them to change the scale at all.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Do you have any source on this btw?

On what, Leman Russ' size? I posted the chart (from some WD, I think) It is also in numerous FW books, as is the size of pretty much every vehicle in 40K.

Which WD?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Which WD?

I don't have the foggiest. FW books have similar charts with the same numbers.

Space Marine heads are the same size as Space Marines helmets. That's how bad the scales are.

 Crimson wrote:
Yep, I'm sure the numbers do not match 100%. However, they seem to be mostly accurate if we assume that the tanks are in same scale as the the infantry. If 30mm Cadian is 175cm tall in 'reality' then 12cm tank model is seven metres long.

Mostly accurate ?

Rather inaccurate and inconsistent.

Example:

Leman Russ ImpA 1

Length = 708 cm > Model = 117 mm > 6,05 cm / 1 mm
Width = 486 cm > Model = 80 mm > 6,075 cm / 1 mm
Height = 442 cm > Model = 68 mm > 6,5 cm / 1 mm
Ground clearance = 45 cm > Model = 12 mm > 3,75 cm / 1 mm
( without turret ) = 340 cm > Model 55 mm > 6,18 cm / 1 mm

1mm = 3,75-6,5 cm ? Really ?

Chimera ImpA 1

Length = 690 cm > Model = 117 mm > 5,89 cm / 1 mm
width = 570 cm > Model = 92 mm > 6,19 cm / 1 mm
Height = 372 cm > Model = 67 mm > 5,55 cm / 1 mm
Ground clearance = 45 cm > Model = 11 mm > 4,09 cm / 1 mm

1mm = 4,09-6,19cm ? Length: Russ is 708cm, Chimera is 690cm, both Models are 117 mm. OK ?

Shadowsword ImpA 1

Length = 1350 cm > Model = 220 mm > 6,13 cm / 1 mm
Width = 840 cm > Model = 140 mm > 6,0 cm / 1 mm
Heigth = 585 cm > Model = 85 mm > 6,88 cm / 1 mm
Ground clearance = 120 cm > Model = 16 mm > 7,5 cm / 1 mm

again, 1mm = 6,0-7,5 cm ?

If they corrected the ground clearance, maybe they could get away with something between 6.0cm and 6.1cm as their "system".

Land Raider IndAst. 3

Length = 1036 cm > Model = 168 mm > 6,16 cm / 1 mm
Width = 610 cm > Model = 100 mm > 6,1 cm / 1 mm
Heigth = 412 cm > Model = 68 mm > 6,05 cm / 1 mm
Ground clearance = 30 cm > Model = 6 mm > 5,0 cm / 1 mm

as close as it gets to fluff and model working as intended..

Predator IndAst 3

Length = 660 cm > Model = 120 mm > 5,5 cm / 1 mm
Width = 590 cm > Model = 78 mm > 7,5 cm / 1 mm
Heigth = 440 cm > Model = 65 mm > 6,76 cm / 1 mm
Ground clearance = 44 cm > Model = 13 mm > 3,38 cm / 1 mm

1 mm = 3,38-7,5 cm ? doesn't compute..

Somebody did an ok job with the Land Raider. The other basic hulls of the IoM are messed up. Thus an accurate representation of their size in the 40k-verse isn't possible.


The Infantry isn't better off. Plastic Space marines and many other are at 30 mm. If vehicles run with 1 mm = 6 cm, a 30 mm figure is 180 cm.
Got a IG 'officer of the fleet' ( advisor ) who is 33 mm. Tall one....
I don't believe everyone in the 40k - verse grows up to 180 and then stops there.

This may be of some interest for those who like their Marines on the tall side. This model scales up to roughly nine feet tall; I went overboard on this one and that's how he ended up so crazy big but it gives an impression of what nine feet would actually look like in miniature terms.

I can't see very well, the picture is tiny.

The scale indeed seems to be roughly 1mm=6cm. Seems consistent enough besides the ground clearances, I don't know what's the issue with the those, they're all totally off.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

The problem remains if there is any BL material at all disagreeing with it, since it equals the studio in canonicity.

Yes it does, but BL cannot be consistent even within one book. It is absurd to expect GW to overhaul their entire model range based on what some BL author might randomly write on on that day. Now it would be nice if GW had stricter canon overseeing policy that forced consistency, but that obviously is not the case.

Or if they just scrapped the rumour thing and said 'X is true, the rest is rumours and myths.'

I do not expect them to do such, but by stating that everything is canon they have backed themselves into a corner.

I do not expect them to change the scale at all.

The "everything is canon" is also meaning "everything is rumors and myths", because that is how everything in 40K is written. While "Canon" normally means "truth", that is a mistake in 40K because, again, *nothing* is true!

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

The problem remains if there is any BL material at all disagreeing with it, since it equals the studio in canonicity.

Yes it does, but BL cannot be consistent even within one book. It is absurd to expect GW to overhaul their entire model range based on what some BL author might randomly write on on that day. Now it would be nice if GW had stricter canon overseeing policy that forced consistency, but that obviously is not the case.

Or if they just scrapped the rumour thing and said 'X is true, the rest is rumours and myths.'

I do not expect them to do such, but by stating that everything is canon they have backed themselves into a corner.

I do not expect them to change the scale at all.

The "everything is canon" is also meaning "everything is rumors and myths", because that is how everything in 40K is written. While "Canon" normally means "truth", that is a mistake in 40K because, again, *nothing* is true!

So all those 7 feet Marine sources are just rumours and the 9 feet sources are right?

And the other way around?

At the same time?

Seems logical.

GW pls


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
The scale indeed seems to be roughly 1mm=6cm. Seems consistent enough besides the ground clearances, I don't know what's the issue with the those, they're all totally off.

Even discounting ground clearances, they vary between ~5,5 and ~7.5. You have said before that discrepancies of this percentage are colossal.

So all those 7 feet Marine sources are just rumours and the 9 feet sources are right?

And the other way around?

At the same time?

Seems logical.

Yes. Also, no.

Biggest discrepancies seem to be in heights of vehicles with turrets and in widths of vehicles with sponsons. There have been many variant turrets and sponsons and it is not always clear to which part of these things you're supposed to measure, so this may affect the results.

But any case, that's not really the point. The models are obviously in scale such way that you could measure individual parts or proportions of them and get reliable results. That's what 'heroic scale does, and I think it affects the vehicles too, although in lesser extent. However, there is a rough scale, which the vehicles seem to adhere to, which goes against the many people's idea that the vehicle models are consistently off scale and too small.

The infantry models are out of scale to each other.
The vehicles are out of scale to the infantry and other vehicles.

A SM Rhino, at the same scale as the infantry should have the footprint of the Land Raider. The Land Raider the footprint of the baneblade.

The leman russ is about 60% the size it should be (at minimum).

 chromedog wrote:

The leman russ is about 60% the size it should be (at minimum).

Okay, let's unpack this; many people seem to think this or something similar. Why you think this is the case? How large you think a 'real life' Leman Russ would be?

As a psychological question, if people agree (in general) that Marines should be larger in proportion to Imperial Guard, why then do so many people think that the Marine models should be bigger?

I mean, why not say that the Guardsmen should be smaller?

I mean, I can see (and agree with) the first, but how does the second follow? Why are guardsmen accepted as 'correctly scaled', instead of Marines (especially given GW's overabundance of marines).

Is it because it's much easier to 'enlarge' a marine than it is to reduce a guardsmen? I mean, that's obviously true, but then it just makes the size of the SM vehicles that much more problematic. If people instead chose to use smaller models (from another company) for IG, then Marines would look more correctly scaled, and a lot of vehicle sizing issues might also diminish.

It just seems clear to me, especially when you look at the older metal IG, that the guard have gotten larger in recent years, which only exacerbated the problem.

Guardsmen should be truescale. Makes them a lot thinner (so natural) and slightly shorter. Heroic scale should be kept for Marines only as they are cartooney already.

So I agree. Truescale guard are superior and make many of the 40k models look that bit more natural. Eldar and Tau should also be truescale. Leaving orks and so on to be bigger.

 Crimson wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

The leman russ is about 60% the size it should be (at minimum).

Okay, let's unpack this; many people seem to think this or something similar. Why you think this is the case? How large you think a 'real life' Leman Russ would be?

Sky scraper.

Warhounds are taller than everest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:
As a psychological question, if people agree (in general) that Marines should be larger in proportion to Imperial Guard, why then do so many people think that the Marine models should be bigger?

I mean, why not say that the Guardsmen should be smaller?

I mean, I can see (and agree with) the first, but how does the second follow? Why are guardsmen accepted as 'correctly scaled', instead of Marines (especially given GW's overabundance of marines).

GW even said that it was the IG models that were the wrong size (too large), and that the rest of the 40k infantry were roughly correct.

This, from long, long ago:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?36934-What-scale-are-games-workshop-models

 Selym wrote:

GW even said that it was the IG models that were the wrong size (too large), and that the rest of the 40k infantry were roughly correct.

Basically this.

Also, wasn't the 8-9 foot marine stated to be 'unusually large' in the actual book, and the author is known for injecting 'largeness' to even non Marines? Somehow, this one large guy was projected onto all marines?

 Daba wrote:

 Selym wrote:

GW even said that it was the IG models that were the wrong size (too large), and that the rest of the 40k infantry were roughly correct.

Basically this.

Also, wasn't the 8-9 foot marine stated to be 'unusually large' in the actual book, and the author is known for injecting 'largeness' to even non Marines? Somehow, this one large guy was projected onto all marines?

No, he was not.

I think that proportion is also an issue. Just look at Commissar Yarrick's powerclaw, ridiculous.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Selym wrote:

GW even said that it was the IG models that were the wrong size (too large), and that the rest of the 40k infantry were roughly correct.

Basically this.

Also, wasn't the 8-9 foot marine stated to be 'unusually large' in the actual book, and the author is known for injecting 'largeness' to even non Marines? Somehow, this one large guy was projected onto all marines?

No, he was not.

Ah, so it's just a case of other some BL authors and being ignorant then I guess.

 Daba wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Selym wrote:

GW even said that it was the IG models that were the wrong size (too large), and that the rest of the 40k infantry were roughly correct.

Basically this.

Also, wasn't the 8-9 foot marine stated to be 'unusually large' in the actual book, and the author is known for injecting 'largeness' to even non Marines? Somehow, this one large guy was projected onto all marines?

No, he was not.

Ah, so it's just a case of other some BL authors and being ignorant then I guess.

Different opinion on a subjective matter =/= ignorance.

If they didn't check up on or wilfully ignored what the sources said beforehand and what went in the universe, it is ignorance going into the subject.

It's not like it was with the Ian Watson books where there was a blank slate with nothing to work from.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW doesn't know how to scale models very well. If you think 10 Space Marine mini's can fit inside a Rhino ur funny.

See if you can fit 5 Ogryns into a Chimera.

You mean 20 boyz in a wagon...

 Daba wrote:
If they didn't check up on or wilfully ignored what the sources said beforehand and what went in the universe, it is ignorance going into the subject.

It's not like it was with the Ian Watson books where there was a blank slate with nothing to work from.

Actually, the BL guys decide what is canon just as much as the studio guys.

They could write that Marines are 12 ft and it would be true.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Daba wrote:
If they didn't check up on or wilfully ignored what the sources said beforehand and what went in the universe, it is ignorance going into the subject.

It's not like it was with the Ian Watson books where there was a blank slate with nothing to work from.

Actually, the BL guys decide what is canon just as much as the studio guys.

They could write that Marines are 12 ft and it would be true.

Or 1' midgets that get stomped on by Ork Boyz because that is propa?

Actually, which books actually state it as 8'? I don't even think BL is responsible, I think it is more fan perception.

 Daba wrote:

Or 1' midgets that get stomped on by Ork Boyz because that is propa?

If they did so, certainly. They haven't yet done so.

Actually, which books actually state it as 8'? I don't even think BL is responsible, I think it is more fan perception.

Eight feet? No idea. Why?

I've seen nine and seven feet, but not eight.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Daba wrote:

Or 1' midgets that get stomped on by Ork Boyz because that is propa?

If they did so, certainly. They haven't yet done so.

Actually, which books actually state it as 8'? I don't even think BL is responsible, I think it is more fan perception.

Eight feet? No idea. Why?

I've seen nine and seven feet, but not eight.

Sergeant Priad in Brotherhood of the Snake was 8 feet tall.

Interesting. So, between the models and various books, there is precedent for everything between 6 and 10 feet.

Lovely.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Interesting. So, between the models and various books, there is precedent for everything between 6 and 10 feet.

Lovely.

Pretty much, I guess. 10 ft? Who was that tall?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Interesting. So, between the models and various books, there is precedent for everything between 6 and 10 feet.

Lovely.

Pretty much, I guess. 10 ft? Who was that tall?

...I am fairly sure I have seen that. Don't quote me on that though. I'll see if I can find the source.

I have sources available for everything between six and nine feet, though.

Well, the nine feet source you quoted earlier is pretty vague. It doesn't actually say that. We do not know how tall the person who the marine is compared to is. And anyway it is just an expression for a rough estimate. And of course this is a statement about this single marine, and cannot be extrapolated to be an average height of marines in general, especially considering the amount of material which contradicts this.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, the nine feet source you quoted earlier is pretty vague. It doesn't actually say that. We do not know how tall the person who the marine is compared to is. And anyway it is just an expression for a rough estimate. And of course this is a statement about this single marine, and cannot be extrapolated to be an average height of marines in general, especially considering the amount of material which contradicts this.

The man he was compared to was a healthy adult.

It does not get much clearer without actually saying 'he was exactly nine feet.'

There are plenty of five feet tall healthy adults.

 Crimson wrote:
There are plenty of five feet tall healthy adults.

He wasn't exactly portrayed as smaller than average, and while he might have been 5 ft, that would put the Marine at 7'6"- well above your Holy Truth of 7 ft.

Is there still anything useful coming out of the argument at this point?

 Ashiraya wrote:

He wasn't exactly portrayed as smaller than average, and while he might have been 5 ft, that would put the Marine at 7'6"- well above your Holy Truth of 7 ft.

Oh, that would be perfectly acceptable. Marines are not clones after all, so there has to be some variation between the individuals. Seven feet is just the average height.

Is there still anything useful coming out of the argument at this point?

Seems rather unlikely. Perhaps someone finds it entertaining?

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

He wasn't exactly portrayed as smaller than average, and while he might have been 5 ft, that would put the Marine at 7'6"- well above your Holy Truth of 7 ft.

Oh, that would be perfectly acceptable. Marines are not clones after all, so there has to be some variation between the individuals. Seven feet is just the average height.

Is there still anything useful coming out of the argument at this point?

Seems rather unlikely. Perhaps someone finds it entertaining?

I certainly consider this proper entertainment this size thing has been talked about already anyway so let bygones be bygones

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Interesting. So, between the models and various books, there is precedent for everything between 6 and 10 feet.

Lovely.

Pretty much, I guess. 10 ft? Who was that tall?

Calgar from god-knows-where, and Pasinaus from the Ultramarines Omnibus.

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Interesting. So, between the models and various books, there is precedent for everything between 6 and 10 feet.

Lovely.

Pretty much, I guess. 10 ft? Who was that tall?

Calgar from god-knows-where, and Pasinaus from the Ultramarines Omnibus.

Wasn't Pasanius noted as being really tall but never really clarified his exact height? We just don't know

 Ashiraya wrote:
I can't see very well, the picture is tiny.

Sorry, should have given a link to my gallery image.



And a brighter picture but without a regular figure to compare to:

That's a pretty big gun.

It's really impressive for a scratchbuild, though.

Nope. Nothing more to say.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That's a pretty big gun.

It's really impressive for a scratchbuild, though.

Yep, it's heavy bolter sized and those are ork arms under all that Green Stuff. After digging out the figure to make certain he measures 50mm high!!! Even at 30mm scale that puts him at roughly nine feet and four inches tall.

The most important thing for me on that model (and my subsequent MK II Marine, although when I start my next one it will be more like MK V) is that the helmet got a size increase too. Someone mentioned earlier that the heads and helmets are the same size, which is true, and also whenever you see a 'Truescale' Space Marine the helmets are never modified. I did make a correctly proportioned 54mm Marine and, based on that model, the main body of the helmets at 28mm are the exact right size (if you discount the pipes and things around the edge which are far too bulky) but all the rest of the body proportions are all very wrong. Depending on how you look at it a Marine's lower leg is too long or his upper leg is too short, they have no waist and/or the chest is too wide and heads, hands and feet are all too big.

I think that it is the proportions rather than the sizes which make all Citadel models so wrong as demonstrated by the picture I posted further back in the thread comparing a Cadian with a an actual human being. The same difference applies to the vehicles.

I saw someone make really badass truescaled marines by using Tartaros terminators as a base. I'll see if I can dig up the pic.

I've seen those (or some very like them) and those Tartaros legs work great - someone even used the Contemptor Dreadnought head and that was a fantastic idea. My gripe with using termi legs generally is 1. it's expensive and 2. it still doesn't correct the proportions. I really should get on and make a start with my next Truescale Marine but...

Main problem with Marine proportions are the too short legs, so using larger termie legs is a logical step. The difficulty with them is that the termie legs are so bulky and hips so wide, that they will easily look weird unless you extensively customise the rest of the body as well. It can look great, but it takes a lot of work as at that point you're basically resculpting half of the model. Personally I just enlarge the power armour legs a bit; it is easy enough that I can actually convert an entire army that way without going mad.

On the topic of BL representation of Space Marines...

Dan Abnett, in one of the Eisenhorn novels, describes one of the White Consuls Space Marines being at a meeting where Inquisitor Eisenhorn, several Lord Generals and other Imperial worthies are present.

The Space Marine is, in the scene, drinking from a cup of tea and, Eisenhorn notes, even going so far as to extend his pinky. Abnett describes said pinky as "the size and shape of an Arbiter's truncheon".

Arbiters only carry one kind of truncheon: the power maul.



...that would make said Space Marine of the White Consuls Chapter abso-fething-lutely huge if his pinky is half a meter long and three centimeters thick.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abnett describes said pinky as "the size and shape of an Arbiter's truncheon".

Arbiters only carry one kind of truncheon: the power maul. his pinky is half a meter long and three centimeters thick.

Lewd.

I think that method is one of the more effective.

When the plastic tactical squad was released at the start of 3rd it was my first attempt at what I discovered many, many years later was called 'truescale'. Of course, saws, Green Stuff and pinning were beyond my modelling ken at that time so I just used a Stanley knife to cut partway through the legs and then bent them strait and that worked quite well.

I've been using plasticard tube on my latest attempts so they lack that flared look that Marine legs have which has its advantages and disadvantages aesthetically.

 Psienesis wrote:

...that would make said Space Marine of the White Consuls Chapter abso-fething-lutely huge if his pinky is half a meter long and three centimeters thick.

I'm six feet tall and my pinky finger is about 6cm long. So based on that, we can estimate that Space Marines are about 50 feet tall. Why does GW not make the models to match this excellent Black Library fluff?

If you're going to go the termie leg route it helps if you have some beefed up termies too because otherwise it just sort of looks like you're doing regular sized terminators.

 Crimson wrote:
Main problem with Marine proportions are the too short legs, so using larger termie legs is a logical step. The difficulty with them is that the termie legs are so bulky and hips so wide, that they will easily look weird unless you extensively customise the rest of the body as well. It can look great, but it takes a lot of work as at that point you're basically resculpting half of the model. Personally I just enlarge the power armour legs a bit; it is easy enough that I can actually convert an entire army that way without going mad.

Now, my method is far from perfect and it does not IMO produce models of an entirely satisfactory size, but I stole Veteran Sergeant's method of Marine enlargement.



Obviously still WIP but you get the idea.

The specific Tartaros example I mentioned earlier are here. Probably not matching to either the 7ft or the 9ft scale, but very pleasing aesthetically regardless.

 Crimson wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

The leman russ is about 60% the size it should be (at minimum).

Okay, let's unpack this; many people seem to think this or something similar. Why you think this is the case? How large you think a 'real life' Leman Russ would be?

You're kidding, right? It looks like the stupid tank out of metal slug.

OK, the main gun.
The Turret isn't big enough to fit a breech AND the crewmember/commander to fire it as well (the ridiculous BORE of the gun notwithstanding. The newer turret is an improvement, but still too short.
Even taking into account a cramped WW1 era vehicle, where you were at serious risk of braining yourself on any internal structure, not to mention sitting in your crewmate's pocket, there's not enough room inside it for CREW AND munitions. Hell, just carrying enough ammo for 6 shots for the main gun means it cannot fit the crew in as well.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Now, my method is far from perfect and it does not IMO produce models of an entirely satisfactory size, but I stole Veteran Sergeant's method of Marine enlargement.

Spoiler:

Obviously still WIP but you get the idea.

Seems to wok well enough. That is pretty similar to the method I use.

The specific Tartaros example I mentioned earlier are here. Probably not matching to either the 7ft or the 9ft scale, but very pleasing aesthetically regardless.

Spoiler:

Yeah, those are pretty amazing. Tartaros bits seem to work better than the regular termie bits.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chromedog wrote:

You're kidding, right? It looks like the stupid tank out of metal slug.

OK, the main gun.
The Turret isn't big enough to fit a breech AND the crewmember/commander to fire it as well (the ridiculous BORE of the gun notwithstanding. The newer turret is an improvement, but still too short.
Even taking into account a cramped WW1 era vehicle, where you were at serious risk of braining yourself on any internal structure, not to mention sitting in your crewmate's pocket, there's not enough room inside it for CREW AND munitions. Hell, just carrying enough ammo for 6 shots for the main gun means it cannot fit the crew in as well.

The gun is ridiculously huge, that is true. The tank itself however is quite large, bigger than most historical tanks.

Char B1, the inspiration for Russ:


6.37 metres long, 2.46 wide, 2.79 tall.

Leman Russ:

Over 7 metres long, 4,4 wide and 4.8 tall.

Yours look far better than mine, Crimson. Considering making a tutorial?

I am on a little modelling hiatus atm as WoW RP eats all my time, but when I return I will definitely focus on making few and properly modified Marines over many and less well converted.

Also look at the difference in main gun size. That is nothing short of colossal.

IMO, the majority of Imperial vehicles should be bigger simply due to its aesthetics. Bigger vehicles means more fun, a Baneblade should IMO be a small base on tracks, and so on.

YMM definitely V here though.

It should be noted that my zealous defense of 9 ft Marines are purely on a fluff level. With the current model range, Marines of that size are just not feasible to convert without simply scratchbuilding, something I can't do to a visually satisfying result.

So when it comes to models, 7 ft or so is OK. Though I will of course still defend that they should be far stronger ruleswise. You would probably not like this, either.

 Crimson wrote:





Char B1, the inspiration for Russ:


6.37 metres long, 2.46 wide, 2.79 tall.

Leman Russ:

Over 7 metres long, 4,4 wide and 4.8 tall.

Aha ! I suspected it was a Char B knock-off ! I liked the French tanks. IMO actually better than the German tanks 1939 - 1941.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Marine in the second picture is significantly larger than the one in the first.

I believe Marines are usually 7-8 feet tall. They don't have to be 9 feet tall to look intimidating. The first picture is a good example of how big and buff they are, completely musclebound and physically unmatched by any human.

I never said that nine feet is required to look intimidating.

I simply consider it the most aesthetically appropriate size.

If we assume that the first Marine in your pic is 7-8 feet tall, then the Guardsman beside him must be about 3 feet tall. Seriously, your Marine in that comparison is like 15 feet tall, assuming the Guardsman is anywhere near average height for a human male (around 6 feet).

 KesaAnna wrote:

 Crimson wrote:





Char B1, the inspiration for Russ:


6.37 metres long, 2.46 wide, 2.79 tall.

Leman Russ:

Over 7 metres long, 4,4 wide and 4.8 tall.

Aha ! I suspected it was a Char B knock-off ! I liked the French tanks. IMO actually better than the German tanks 1939 - 1941.

lol, no.

Disarray wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW doesn't know how to scale models very well. If you think 10 Space Marine mini's can fit inside a Rhino ur funny.

See if you can fit 5 Ogryns into a Chimera.

You mean 20 boyz in a wagon...

Transports and WYSIWYG..

GW is consistent with their hatches of Imperial Vehicles. Usually provide 15mm space ( diameter ). Heroic scale means our little plastic figures are rather ..like comic-book characters.

The seats in the transports ( Land Raider and Rhino ) are 9mm.
The behind of a space elf is comfortable with this. Humans may be ok there. SM however barely fit there. 40k models and their broad shoulders ensure no one can really sit there normally.

The passenger compartment is another great piece of fun.

Land Raider = 8,0 x 4,0 x 4,0 = 128cm3
Valkyrie = 7,0 x 5,0 x 3,0 = 105 cm 3
Chimera = 6,5 x 4,5 x 3,0 = 87,75 cm 3
Rhino = 5,5 x 3,2 x 2,8 = 49,28 cm 3

Space Marine = 2,0 x 1,5 x 3,0 = 9 cm 3
Human ( IG ) = 1,0 x 1,0 x 3,0 = 3 cm 3 ( equipped maybe 4,5 )

Thus we could cramp 5 space marines into that rhino. Or 8,5 into a chimera. Put 12 Humans into a Rhino. Or if we give them some gear we may still get 10 into that rhino.
A Land Raider could ferry 14 space marines around, somehow. Or 28 IG.
They just can't really embark - disembark themselves.

So lets use the 8x4 grid of the Land Raider floor. SM = 2x1,5 > 2 rows of 5. Hey we got 10 in! ( aren't LRC for 16 ? )
Or the 6,5x4,5 of the chimera floor. IG = 1,5x1,0 > 2 rows of 6. yay, 12 of them inside! ( no armor, no weapons )

Tightly cramped and not holding their guns at the ready... don't even think about heavy weapons or bling like banners.
Proportions by GW do not allow for unneccessary gear.

Engine of War wrote:

As for the scale. Its of course off, but I remember a while ago seeing a picture with a Leman Russ tank next to a soldier (perhaps a crew member). In the art the tank towered over the guy, I've stood next to tanks before and the one I would equate of that size would be like the King Tiger which is a BIG tank.

A King Tiger is longer but not as broad or high as the Specs given on LR suggest this 40k Tank is. Difference? 1m -1,4m ...
WWII Tanks go up to 3m height, modern ones down to 2,50m aiming for a low profile.

Take a Leman Russ and a SM Predator. GW wrote: LR = 442 cm, P = 440cm. Models should be almost the same height. But they are not.

I was going to throw some vague numbers together about volume of transport compartments, so you saved me the trouble.

To sum up,
- 40k infantry model are not in scale with themselves (head + hand vs torso for instance)
- 40k tank models are not in scale with themselves (size of the main gun vs size of the whole tank)
and the question is, are those model in scale with each other?
As for the fluff size of stuff, there are huge variation in size for actual people, so we should keep that in mind, and maybe consider huge variations for size for marines, and alien species. Also keep in mind that bigger does not necessarily mean better. It is true for living beings, and it is true for tanks too. There are reasons why insects can carry many time their own weight without trouble.

Yeah, nothing is really to scale. But then again, you aren't playing warhammer for its grip on reality and real-world physics.....

I honestly think this is a good representation of the height between a Chaos Marine and a normal human. Granted the human isn't a 40k mini but it gets the point across in my opinion.

The bases are different sizes, count that in.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The bases are different sizes, count that in.

That is true, the human would be insignificantly taller

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I honestly think this is a good representation of the height between a Chaos Marine and a normal human. Granted the human isn't a 40k mini but it gets the point across in my opinion.

The thing to keep in mind is that if that model is supposed to represent the size of, say, the average American adult man, then there would be people taller than this marine.
I think one interesting question is how much bigger the transformation to a space marine makes you. Then you will likely have as much variation in space marines size than in normal human size if size is not a criteria for recruitment.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I honestly think this is a good representation of the height between a Chaos Marine and a normal human. Granted the human isn't a 40k mini but it gets the point across in my opinion.

The thing to keep in mind is that if that model is supposed to represent the size of, say, the average American adult man, then there would be people taller than this marine.
I think one interesting question is how much bigger the transformation to a space marine makes you. Then you will likely have as much variation in space marines size than in normal human size if size is not a criteria for recruitment.

The average american male would be 5'10 I believe, so if that's the case, this marine would probably be 7'0 exactly. So maybe that's about 6 inches short than how tall I imagine they would be but keep in mind how thick and stocky marines are. Shaquille O'Neal could be almost as tall as a marine but he still isn't anywhere near as strong or tough.

In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

Superhuman means 'above human limits'. Ergo, in this case, a Marine is stronger than the strongest human.

I reason the same for height, which is one reason why I find 7' tall Marines hard to believe. There have been really tall humans, but none have ever reached nine feet. That is why I consider it more logical.

(In fact, the world's tallest man was only 8'11"!)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The thing to keep in mind is that if that model is supposed to represent the size of, say, the average American adult man, then there would be people taller than this marine.

So?

I think one interesting question is how much bigger the transformation to a space marine makes you. Then you will likely have as much variation in space marines size than in normal human size if size is not a criteria for recruitment.

That is not necessarily the case. It is quite possible that the Gene-seed stabilises your growth hormone on certain optimal level. There is a definite advantages in not having your army of supersoldiers vary wildly in size.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

Superhuman means 'above human limits'. Ergo, in this case, a Marine is stronger than the strongest human.

I reason the same for height, which is one reason why I find 7' tall Marines hard to believe. There have been really tall humans, but none have ever reached nine feet. That is why I consider it more logical.

(In fact, the world's tallest man was only 8'11"!)

Yeah, Robert Wadlow I believe, but how many people have reached 8'? Honestly? Not much at all. The definition of superhuman btw means showing exceptional abilities or powers. A 7'6-8'4 man weighing 500-700lbs is quite exceptional and while few humans will ever get that tall, they sure as heck will never be as strong.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

I actually agree that Marines pretty much should be stronger than any normal human (on the other hand maybe Harker is just an extremely rare mutant, and not really a 'normal human'.)

However, while Marines are noted having Superhuman Strength and Reflexes, they're not usually described having 'superhuman' height, intelligence or singing voice. Space Marines are superhuman in certain things, they're not superhuman in everything.

 Crimson wrote:
However, while Marines are noted having Superhuman Strength and Reflexes, they're not usually described having 'superhuman' height, intelligence or singing voice.

You mean, except Emperor's children . They can sing perfect lullabies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
So?

So it means there are people taller than space marine. What happens if you make one of those into a space marine ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
However, while Marines are noted having Superhuman Strength and Reflexes, they're not usually described having 'superhuman' height, intelligence or singing voice.

You mean, except Emperor's children . They can sing perfect lullabies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
So?

So it means there are people taller than space marine. What happens if you make one of those into a space marine ?

If they reach that height, wouldn't they be too old to make into a Space Marine?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

Superhuman means 'above human limits'. Ergo, in this case, a Marine is stronger than the strongest human.

I reason the same for height, which is one reason why I find 7' tall Marines hard to believe. There have been really tall humans, but none have ever reached nine feet. That is why I consider it more logical.

(In fact, the world's tallest man was only 8'11"!)

You could have humans that match a SM in one or so aspects, and still call SM superhuman, as they outmatch that man in other ways. Many of a SM's changes aren't even outwardly visible: They become more intelligent, think/sense/react faster, have a binary vascular system, have greater endurance, have an aqua lung, can assimilate information by eating, they repair faster, they have faster-clotting blood, can spit acid etc.

Most of those would be considered super-powers by human standards, and SM's have all of them. And then a giant suit of armour.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

So it means there are people taller than space marine. What happens if you make one of those into a space marine ?

Arjack Rockfist happens. As there are some really exceptionally tall normal humans, there can be some exceptionally tall Marines.

And one think about extremely tall people like Robert Wadlow, they would never be selected to become Space Marines. Marines need to be super fit, and people with gigantism definitely are not; it is pretty much a disability. Tallest healthy and fit people are about seven and half feet, and those are really rare.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

I actually agree that Marines pretty much should be stronger than any normal human (on the other hand maybe Harker is just an extremely rare mutant, and not really a 'normal human'.)

However, while Marines are noted having Superhuman Strength and Reflexes, they're not usually described having 'superhuman' height, intelligence or singing voice. Space Marines are superhuman in certain things, they're not superhuman in everything.

I am fairly sure examples saying Marines are 'inhumanly large' 'of superhuman size' and so on are dotted across the 40K books.

If you'd like, I can go look around and see what I can find.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In a way, I am taking the whole 'Marines are superhuman' thing literally.

Take their superhuman strength. If there is a human (*Looks at Harker*) who is as strong as a Marine, then the Marine is not superhumanly strong. Then he is just human.

I actually agree that Marines pretty much should be stronger than any normal human (on the other hand maybe Harker is just an extremely rare mutant, and not really a 'normal human'.)

However, while Marines are noted having Superhuman Strength and Reflexes, they're not usually described having 'superhuman' height, intelligence or singing voice. Space Marines are superhuman in certain things, they're not superhuman in everything.

I am fairly sure examples saying Marines are 'inhumanly large' 'of superhuman size' and so on are dotted across the 40K books.

If you'd like, I can go look around and see what I can find.

Exactly, because being normally 7 or 8 feet tall instead of 5 or 6 is considered superhuman.

Seven or eight feet tall is, while possible for a non-enhanced human, unusually tall. Inhumanly so, by some definitions.

 Psienesis wrote:
Seven or eight feet tall is, while possible for a non-enhanced human, unusually tall. Inhumanly so, by some definitions.

Especially considering that those that reach 8" often only got there through gigantism, which is a genetic defect, not a standard human trait.
In theory, any human could be as large as a SM, have extra lungs/hearts etc, and there are a few (often rare and fatal) examples of humans with at least one SM trait, but they do not have the same genetic makeup as the "average" human. And are thus considered "superhuman" if it does not cause medical issues.

Such as the guy that can run forever, or the kid who has super-efficient lungs.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Seven or eight feet tall is, while possible for a non-enhanced human, unusually tall. Inhumanly so, by some definitions.

Especially considering that those that reach 8" often only got there through gigantism, which is a genetic defect, not a standard human trait.
In theory, any human could be as large as a SM, have extra lungs/hearts etc, and there are a few (often rare and fatal) examples of humans with at least one SM trait, but they do not have the same genetic makeup as the "average" human. And are thus considered "superhuman" if it does not cause medical issues.

Such as the guy that can run forever, or the kid who has super-efficient lungs.

Gigantism exists because people like Waldow get to tall for their feet (namely the achilles heel) to properly support their whole body. SM's were biologically enhanced to specifically be that tall and a dozen times stronger and tougher than a man. A SM's foot is probably size 18 at least and not to mention their bodies are a lot wider so their weight can be evenly distributed through both their legs.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Seven or eight feet tall is, while possible for a non-enhanced human, unusually tall. Inhumanly so, by some definitions.

Especially considering that those that reach 8" often only got there through gigantism, which is a genetic defect, not a standard human trait.
In theory, any human could be as large as a SM, have extra lungs/hearts etc, and there are a few (often rare and fatal) examples of humans with at least one SM trait, but they do not have the same genetic makeup as the "average" human. And are thus considered "superhuman" if it does not cause medical issues.

Such as the guy that can run forever, or the kid who has super-efficient lungs.

Gigantism exists because people like Waldow get to tall for their feet (namely the achilles heel) to properly support their whole body. SM's were biologically enhanced to specifically be that tall and a dozen times stronger and tougher than a man. A SM's foot is probably size 18 at least and not to mention their bodies are a lot wider so their weight can be evenly distributed through both their legs.

Given that there are some 6' 8" NBA players with size 20 shoes, I think Space Marines would be in the 30s or 40s.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Seven or eight feet tall is, while possible for a non-enhanced human, unusually tall. Inhumanly so, by some definitions.

Especially considering that those that reach 8" often only got there through gigantism, which is a genetic defect, not a standard human trait.
In theory, any human could be as large as a SM, have extra lungs/hearts etc, and there are a few (often rare and fatal) examples of humans with at least one SM trait, but they do not have the same genetic makeup as the "average" human. And are thus considered "superhuman" if it does not cause medical issues.

Such as the guy that can run forever, or the kid who has super-efficient lungs.

Gigantism exists because people like Waldow get to tall for their feet (namely the achilles heel) to properly support their whole body. SM's were biologically enhanced to specifically be that tall and a dozen times stronger and tougher than a man. A SM's foot is probably size 18 at least and not to mention their bodies are a lot wider so their weight can be evenly distributed through both their legs.

Given that there are some 6' 8" NBA players with size 20 shoes, I think Space Marines would be in the 30s or 40s.

Well, I'm size 14 and 6'2 so then yeah, maybe 18 is to small for a marine but needless to say, Marines got enormous feet and a wide body. Probably size 25.

I personally like the scale of the Space Marines in "Space Marine" (the game). They are about 7.5 feet or about that compared to the guardsmen who are 6 or slightly shorter. They are a good head or 2 over them when standing next to each other.

 Engine of War wrote:
I personally like the scale of the Space Marines in "Space Marine" (the game). They are about 7.5 feet or about that compared to the guardsmen who are 6 or slightly shorter. They are a good head or 2 over them when standing next to each other.

Yea, the game devs did that quite well. I'd happily take that as the correct size of a SM, as it looks rather plausible.