With 7th out and underway i was wondering if it opened new doors for tactics? Besides the usual summoning or FMC, can we make for competitive lists using units that werent so great in 6th?

With the new rules for penetrating hits, vehicles get a lot more durable. Heavy tanks in general are much more difficult to explode so predators, land raiders, and vindicators all get more incentive to be used.

Besides possible triple land raider lists (which other armies can do way better) no, not really.

Invisible Spawn got comparatively awesome, and regular Nurgle spawn are pretty awesome.


I still think that Spawn Rush is the way to play Chaos in 7th. 15 Spawn, 2 Nurgle Biker Lords...causing drama.

What about Daemons though? Did they get any new lists?

 Solosam47 wrote:
What about Daemons though? Did they get any new lists?

Proably, as some of the changes have really impacted Chaos Deamons a fair bit, a lot of attention's been focused on the self replicating Tzeetch list, but honestly I think that list has problems,

Between the changes to the psychic power system and the changes to FMC's and their ability to assault and vector strike, I would assert that the Daemons codex as a whole was nerfed. Not into the ground perhaps, but the two things their top builds relied on the most, FMC's and spamming psychic powers, are now much harder to use effectively.

They're still a top-tier army, though. With telepathy being a universally good discipline, taking lotso Slaaneshi heralds and running around with invisible seekers and Lash-Princes is fun as hell.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Invisible Spawn got comparatively awesome, and regular Nurgle spawn are pretty awesome.


I still think that Spawn Rush is the way to play Chaos in 7th. 15 Spawn, 2 Nurgle Biker Lords...causing drama.

Totally agree, spawn are awesome, don't forget to ally in 20 Flesh Hounds too. Or take some allied necron buddies for dealing with AV14.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Invisible Spawn got comparatively awesome, and regular Nurgle spawn are pretty awesome.

.
I still think that Spawn Rush is the way to play Chaos in 7th. 15 Spawn, 2 Nurgle Biker Lords...causing drama.

Spawn are really expensive. What models do you use?

Spawn can be as expensive or cheap as you want. They're literally anything, it's a dude worked over by the whims of chaos. A blob of green stuff, a bunch of books on legs, a floating mass of cubes and eyeballs, just dump some bits in superglue and roll it onto a base.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Spawn are really expensive. What models do you use?

I bought a box of chaos warhounds (10 for £20) and converted them with tentacle bits from the maulerfiend and other odds and ends. Really though as long as they are on a 30mm base and look mutated to hell and back you could base it on virtually any model. If I were to do it again I think I would start with Crypt Horrors although they are 5 times the price.

Double headed warhounds look pretty cool all mutated into one another so if you go the warhound route (and want 10/15 spawn) then better to buy 2 boxes and mix and match with green stuff.


This is what your chaos spawn should ideally look like (See John Carpenter's The Thing)

Make sure you buy 5 extra 30mm bases so when you cast invisiblity on them you can swap them for empty bases (now that's awesomeness).

Hahaaa empty bases. Oh how fun.. my maulerfiend actually has a detachable base so im totally going to do that!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Between the changes to the psychic power system and the changes to FMC's and their ability to assault and vector strike, I would assert that the Daemons codex as a whole was nerfed. Not into the ground perhaps, but the two things their top builds relied on the most, FMC's and spamming psychic powers, are now much harder to use effectively.

They're still a top-tier army, though. With telepathy being a universally good discipline, taking lotso Slaaneshi heralds and running around with invisible seekers and Lash-Princes is fun as hell.

This is why i am really looking into daemons now, cause yeah the FMC and mass psychic got nerfed a bit it seems which to me should open up new doors for some more original ideas of new great daemon lists lol

That slaanesh w/ seekers sounds like a blast!!

I have been playing some maelstorm of war lately.
I think chaos has gained some advantages with how those scenarios work.
First, the enemy need to hunt down objectives more, meaning they most likely need to go in to your table half. Stocking up on tough models to guard home base, will be more profitable in 7th. A nurgle prince cleaning up your table half will be awesome even without wings (and if you do get wings, with new jink rule, he get an awesome jink, even when jumping).
Helbrutes are now very resilient against anything that is not melta. Keep him in a cultist blob for a tough as nails objective secure unit.
Also, CSM get some of the most resilent Warlords, making slay the warlord and tac-objective kingslayer hard to get for the enemy.
Tactics need to look a bit different with 7th, even if the units have the same flaws as before; and I believe CSMs could do better now than with 6th if you tailor your list for tactical objectives.

Where did you get the idea that a Helbrute can join units?

Besides unbound mass spam spawns or obliterators, it really hasn't changed much since 7th

The same things will be good, Nurgle, bikes, spawns, oblits, Helldrakes are still good just not super strong anymore.

I think however Maulerfiends will be very interesting. they where good before but now with new vehicle rules we can expect more of that.

Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

As far as i can tell he is correct. though im sure there is something within the books them selves.

In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

so all the chaos supplements=faction of parent codex, so they all = faction: chaos.

A unit’s Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army, but is especially relevant to Detachments because many state that you can only include units of a particular Faction.

detachment units are required to be of the same faction, there is no actual requirement anywhere that they must come from a singular book- just that a detachment is all the same faction.

OT ish - So how does this work with something like say FW Armored Battle group. Id love to take cheaper vendettas.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea that a Helbrute can join units?

The helbrute dataslate could be used to that effect if not joined by raw (actally not sure of the exact game mechanic, but it allow your helbrute get nice cover from fearless cultists, the whole thing working basicly like "lock out sir" in a unit )

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Fayric wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea that a Helbrute can join units?

The helbrute dataslate could be used to that effect if not joined by raw (actally not sure of the exact game mechanic, but it allow your helbrute get nice cover from fearless cultists, the whole thing working basicly like "lock out sir" in a unit )

It lets your helbrute get a 3+ cover save if obscured by a cultist. Each successful save means you have to remove a cultist. Its nice, but the real benefit of the formation is the two units of fearless cultists.

In general, sorcerers with familiars are amazingly efficient.

Also, I think there are opportunities to run things like 6 forgefiends.

Which is a nightmare.

blaktoof wrote:
Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

With that in mind does that make all of the Imperium able to stick anything they want into one detachment?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, all the codexes of SM and Ig count as Imperium, but their factions are their Codex names.

The Hellbrute formation for cultists is phenomenal considering the Cultists are Fearless so long as the Hellbrute is alive. And when it dies, they gain Zealot, which is even funnier!

Basically these guys are cheap, and amazing objective secured campers.

blaktoof wrote:
Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

Mother of God! this right here......this kcan be amazing!!!

Melee-kitted Nurgle Daemon Princes. Because of the new Jink rule, they pretty much have a 2+ cover at all times, plus Grounding them is a lot harder.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Melee-kitted Nurgle Daemon Princes. Because of the new Jink rule, they pretty much have a 2+ cover at all times, plus Grounding them is a lot harder.

They also can't land and charge in the same turn which makes them severely limited. Land and you will get filled full of ignores cover shooting or any mass S6+ shooting.

 Solosam47 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

Mother of God! this right here......this kcan be amazing!!!

wait does this mean we can take artifacts from each book in a single detachment now?

Thats the way im thinkin it works......oh the joy!

Wait that's weird.

Ok if this accurate I imagine we can get pretty unique combinations of artifacts, I don't have the books on me to see what we can do.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Invisible Spawn got comparatively awesome, and regular Nurgle spawn are pretty awesome.

.
I still think that Spawn Rush is the way to play Chaos in 7th. 15 Spawn, 2 Nurgle Biker Lords...causing drama.

Spawn are really expensive. What models do you use?

Spawn models.

wtnind wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Melee-kitted Nurgle Daemon Princes. Because of the new Jink rule, they pretty much have a 2+ cover at all times, plus Grounding them is a lot harder.

They also can't land and charge in the same turn which makes them severely limited. Land and you will get filled full of ignores cover shooting or any mass S6+ shooting.

You dont actually need to fly, thats the nice thing!

You are still a 12" moving monster and you get Jink even when you're gliding. So effectively you're moving 12" per turn, with a 2+ cover save and not restricted from waiting a turn to charge.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

Mother of God! this right here......this kcan be amazing!!!

wait does this mean we can take artifacts from each book in a single detachment now?

wait, i just checked the supplements and models who choose artifacts from the supplement are stated not to be able to take artifacts from the main book. So i guess you can have multiple artifacts from the the different supplements, but not on the same unit. So no black mace and daemonheart for example on the same model, but I guess you can have both in the same army on different units, unless maybe I'm interpreting this wrong.

Does it say anything about other supplements?

IE Artifacts from Crimson Slaughter + Artifacts from Black Legion (or whatever it's called).


Also, how would this work for Possessed?

I dunno know special things Black Legion gets.

Hollismason wrote:
Does it say anything about other supplements?

IE Artifacts from Crimson Slaughter + Artifacts from Black Legion (or whatever it's called).


Also, how would this work for Possessed?

I dunno know special things Black Legion gets.

it says any character in your crimson slaughter detachment that can select chaos artifacts cannot select from those listed in the CSM codex, but can instead select from the relics in the crimson slaughter. Note how it says Crimson slaughter detachment, I don't how this works now
if we put 3 factions in our combined arms detachment

My guess is that it's ok to take lord A and put the black mace on him, then take Lord B and put things like the Daemonheart on him, and have them both in a single FoC. You just cant take artifacts from all three books and put them on a single model.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
My guess is that it's ok to take lord A and put the black mace on him, then take Lord B and put things like the Daemonheart on him, and have them both in a single FoC. You just cant take artifacts from all three books and put them on a single model.

I agree with this^^

Ugh it is kind of a mess though if you think about it.

What's the Black Legions special rule thing?

Crimson Slaughter get Possessed as troops.

Black legion gets chosen as troops, and can upgrade their termies. thats all i remember at this time :/

The supplements specifically mention that Artefacts are an either/or choice, so no cross-book combos. Conversely, IMHO it's entirely legal to take a CSM Chaos Lord with a Black Mace and a Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer with Prophet of the Voices in the same CAD.

Soul grinders are just plain brutal in 7e.

I'm not sure the dread and cultist formation will do OK against eldar. The dread can get squashed by ignore cover serpent shields, the cultists will have fearless or zealot which incluces fearless, but die in droves to serpent shields.

Actually since their battle brothers you can take the Dataslates for the Helbrutes and get more armour in your army.

I'm going to start a thread in YMDC about it, I am not so sure this works.

Hollismason wrote:
Actually since their battle brothers you can take the Dataslates for the Helbrutes and get more armour in your army.

I'm going to start a thread in YMDC about it, I am not so sure this works.

can you please, I really hope we are right on this one.

Chaos lord with mark of nurgle, on a bike with daemonheart, Slaughterers horns, Pfist, Lclaw
2+ armour, some khorne rules, IWND, t6

Ummmm guys the helcult formation does not give you objective secured cultists.

Only troops units (and their transports) from a combined arms detachment or allied detachment have objective secured. Summoned daemons (troops) and formations are not part of it, so while they're scoring, they aren't objective secured.

Slight Daemon Detour but nothing stops you from double cadding 8 hearlds right?

because just had a game of never cast psykic powers ever against a daemon friend.

Nothing stopping 8 heralds. Its why many tournaments are house ruling 1 CAD + 1 Allied detachment/Data slate.

MK. yeah 40+ deny rolls makes me sad :/

Also didn't help he got 56 on maelstrom 3 times (harness the warp one)

blaktoof wrote:
Well chaos can do some interesting things now with unit selection

Chaos Codex= Chaos faction
Black legion supplement= Chaos faction
Crimson Slaughter= Chaos faction

since detachments only require you to purchase units for the detachment from a particular faction, not codex, you can put all 3 books into one one detachment now since they all = chaos faction. In effect the book to choose your chaos detachment is three books total if you want.

before you would have to do things like Primary=Chaos Allied= Black legion.

No more!

You can't do it since they aren't different army lists. They are all codex chaos space marines, but at the beginning of both the supplements it says that this supplement uses the army list from codex: chaos space marines but the entire detachment gets the supplemental rule: black legion or crimson slaughter. This special rule then gives the detachment permission to use either chosen or possessed as troops as well as gives the general access to the unique wargear and warlord traits. So no you can't pick and choose from the codices and supplements.

And as for relics it specifcly says that a character that can take relics in the army list cannot take the normal relics but can take crimson slaughter or black legion relics instead.

What about using the unbound rules to take a Land Raider Crusader? The extra transport capacity would be great, especially if you are in the mood to take large units of regular CSM ( or hell, even more expensive plague marines and noise marines)

You still can't get in it. Unbound allows you to ignore the force org chart, not the rules for allies. A crusader would still be come the apocalypse with chaos marines.

With the exalted flamer chariot, did they ever fix it so that they can move and fire their flamer properly? I think I saw GW did but cannot remember.

They did its suddo relentless.

 Desubot wrote:
They did its suddo relentless.

It's not pseudo relentless, the gets relentless for being on the chariot

Well it doesn't say they get "Relenetless" just they count as stationary :/ same thing but technically not the same.

Awesome! ever since they released it i have always wanted to field it as "relentless" love the fire

I like it, some people don't but it goes great with a deepstriking list.

I think it deserves alot more credit then it gets

It's a AP3 ST 5 flamer that has torrent and a D3 shot Lascannon. Plus it get's a +1 from Cursed Earth and it's Tzeentch so it rerolls 1s that's pretty decent for 100 points.

I like it.

Has anyone had any success with bare bones 140 point Soul Grinders?

 Desubot wrote:
Well it doesn't say they get "Relenetless" just they count as stationary :/ same thing but technically not the same.

Yes they do get relentless, read the special rules entry

Hollismason wrote:
It's a AP3 ST 5 flamer that has torrent and a D3 shot Lascannon. Plus it get's a +1 from Cursed Earth and it's Tzeentch so it rerolls 1s that's pretty decent for 100 points.

I like it.

Has anyone had any success with bare bones 140 point Soul Grinders?

Probably best to deep strike the chariot if going second.

Going to try a soul grinders list against a good opponent tomorrow

I'm going with 160 point Tzeentch grinders with torrent. I think it has good synergy with the actual shots which go away with the pie

Blight Grenades got better, as did Rhinos (vehicles in general), so that's a slight buff to Plague Marines squads.

The changes to Challenges are quite big for Chaos, possibly more so than for any other faction, as being forced to issue challenges is no longer a big drawback. Especially for Juggerlords who can dish out an insane amount of attacks.

Spell Familiars got a lot more useful, possibly one of the most useful items in the game now.

Access to Telepathy is also really good, with Invisibility being really powerful and Psychic Scream being increased from 12" to 18" (if I recall right, don't have my books with me right now)

Be'Lakor guaranteeing Invisibility is nice. FMC took a big hit, but always having a 2+ cover save makes up for a little bit of that. His model is so tiny that he is easy to hide out of LOS anyways.

Being able to use Daemonology without periling on any doubles (for Daemon Princes and Sorcs with that Crimson Slaughter artifact) can be handy.

Heldrakes took a pretty big hit, but are still good. Just not an auto-take, but that opens up for more creative lists, imo.

Psychic Focus is pretty sweet for unmarked sorcerers (a lvl 3 Sorc with 3 powers from Telepathy and thus the Primaris, with a spell familiar? Yes please), but not-so-cool for marked ones.

Now that Battle Bros can join each other's transports, can models from the Daemon codex enter Rhinos and Land Raiders? Daemonic Instability prevents them from -joining-, but entering a transport is entering, not joining, isn't it? A Land Raider filled with Heralds would be very expensive, but might be fun.

Raw yes, but few daemons are infantry.

A marked CSM sorcerer can't take 3 generic lore powers. One must be their god's power. The primaris is an extra bonus, it doesn't take the slot of your one compulsory.

 Spellbound wrote:
A marked CSM sorcerer can't take 3 generic lore powers. One must be their god's power. The primaris is an extra bonus, it doesn't take the slot of your one compulsory.

as with 6th, marking your sorc is a huge waste

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Well it doesn't say they get "Relenetless" just they count as stationary :/ same thing but technically not the same.

Yes they do get relentless, read the special rules entry

book or digital as it is not in the book

GrafWattenburg wrote:


Now that Battle Bros can join each other's transports, can models from the Daemon codex enter Rhinos and Land Raiders? Daemonic Instability prevents them from -joining-, but entering a transport is entering, not joining, isn't it? A Land Raider filled with Heralds would be very expensive, but might be fun.

I had the same idea when I first saw the new battle brothers rules. However if you look through the demon dex there are few infantry and none of them seem to benefit enough from the land raider to justify its cost.

JubbJubbz wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:


Now that Battle Bros can join each other's transports, can models from the Daemon codex enter Rhinos and Land Raiders? Daemonic Instability prevents them from -joining-, but entering a transport is entering, not joining, isn't it? A Land Raider filled with Heralds would be very expensive, but might be fun.

I had the same idea when I first saw the new battle brothers rules. However if you look through the demon dex there are few infantry and none of them seem to benefit enough from the land raider to justify its cost.

Yeah, I agree. You could put 8 heralds in there, but that would get insanely expensive. A Spartan might work though, as you can fit 3-4 Heralds and a lot of infantry (Daemonettes) in there. The LR Dirge Caster would also be good. Not super-competitive, but it might work.

It's a nice way for plaguebearers to get around the board a bit faster, but that's about all.

Hmmm.... is there any reason Bloodcrushers can't hop in a Land Raider?

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Hmmm.... is there any reason Bloodcrushers can't hop in a Land Raider?

The same reason a chapter master on bike can't hop in a land raider.

Transports may only hold unit type infantry. Bikes, Calvary, jump infantry, jet pack infantry, beasts, walkers, other vehicles, zooming flyers, superheavies, and artillery are not unit type infantry.

The basic Landraider for Chaos Space Marines kind of sucks. 10 model limit etc.. etc..

Ive been running min 10 man squads of Bloodletters with the Bloodreaper upgraded champion, who totes around an Axe of Khorne for 10 points. Throwing them inside Land Raiders with Dirge Casters. 340 points and they're terrifying. The Reaper has an AP2 Weapon at Initiative, the Letters are all AP3 and have 2 attacks on the charge.

Ive been running 2 Heralds of Khorne on Bloodthrones conferring Rage to the Letters while hiding behind the Landraiders for cover. It's actually pretty terrifying how effective they are.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive been running min 10 man squads of Bloodletters with the Bloodreaper upgraded champion, who totes around an Axe of Khorne for 10 points. Throwing them inside Land Raiders with Dirge Casters. 340 points and they're terrifying. The Reaper has an AP2 Weapon at Initiative, the Letters are all AP3 and have 2 attacks on the charge.

Ive been running 2 Heralds of Khorne on Bloodthrones conferring Rage to the Letters while hiding behind the Landraiders for cover. It's actually pretty terrifying how effective they are.

^^ Sounds like a blast to use! I now wanna try this!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
.

Heldrakes took a pretty big hit, but are still good. Just not an auto-take, but that opens up for more creative lists, imo.

This is why i brought this topic up! I am probably one of the few who was happy the drake got nerfed a little cause now i dont feel bound to take it and now we can see new lists and ideas arise.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive been running min 10 man squads of Bloodletters with the Bloodreaper upgraded champion, who totes around an Axe of Khorne for 10 points. Throwing them inside Land Raiders with Dirge Casters. 340 points and they're terrifying. The Reaper has an AP2 Weapon at Initiative, the Letters are all AP3 and have 2 attacks on the charge.

Ive been running 2 Heralds of Khorne on Bloodthrones conferring Rage to the Letters while hiding behind the Landraiders for cover. It's actually pretty terrifying how effective they are.

Could also add a Herald for hate, or split on on a juggernaut off from hounds to join them

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive been running min 10 man squads of Bloodletters with the Bloodreaper upgraded champion, who totes around an Axe of Khorne for 10 points. Throwing them inside Land Raiders with Dirge Casters. 340 points and they're terrifying. The Reaper has an AP2 Weapon at Initiative, the Letters are all AP3 and have 2 attacks on the charge.

It's 345 points. I will try something like this somewhere in August. I'm giving the Land Raider Daemonic Possession as the Bloodletters are cheap and the BS3 penalty isn't that severe for twin-linked weapons: without twin-linked 66% -> 50% and with twin-linked 89% -> 75%. I also feel compelled to give the unit an Icon and Instrument though they're not that useful when in a Land Raider. The Icon can still be very useful when the unit is out and in close combat and the Instrument gives me the incentive to Deep Strike the unit instead if I feel that is better when deploying. This will be 380 points instead. Maybe I could cut the Instrument but not the Icon.

I would also like to add that you should ALWAYS put dozer blades on chaos land raiders. For 5 points you can't go wrong, especially when one failed dangerous terrain test and you're screwed.

It just really sucks chaos land raiders are capped at 10, as you can't put in a squad of daemons with a herald in one ever. However, I'm probably going to be doing the bloodletters with the champion, that's a squad that's way cheaper than CSM or Khorne Berserkers and way more killy.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ive been running min 10 man squads of Bloodletters with the Bloodreaper upgraded champion, who totes around an Axe of Khorne for 10 points. Throwing them inside Land Raiders with Dirge Casters. 340 points and they're terrifying. The Reaper has an AP2 Weapon at Initiative, the Letters are all AP3 and have 2 attacks on the charge.

Ive been running 2 Heralds of Khorne on Bloodthrones conferring Rage to the Letters while hiding behind the Landraiders for cover. It's actually pretty terrifying how effective they are.

Could also add a Herald for hate, or split on on a juggernaut off from hounds to join them

Thats what the bloodthrones are for They confer their locus within a 6" bubble to all Daemons of Khorne. Since Bloodletters come in squads of 10 base you cant add a Herald to the sqaud then plop then in a LR sadly :( So naturally, I threw them on Thrones lol

I will say that the fact we get such good Objective secured troops in regards to Plague Marines and Plague Bearers can't really be beat at all.

Plague Marines especially.

 Desubot wrote:
Also didn't help he got 56 on maelstrom 3 times (harness the warp one)

You cannot generate the same result more than once in a maelstrom battle. So you cannot get 56 three times in one game.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Also didn't help he got 56 on maelstrom 3 times (harness the warp one)

You cannot generate the same result more than once in a maelstrom battle. So you cannot get 56 three times in one game.

Well il be a monkeys uncle i didnt even see that.

Well we both have had advantageous situations because of dupes so its no biggy for the previous games

I feel like there's a Maulerfiend, Chaos Spawn Rhino Rush list just waiting to happen but I can't figure it out. I mean Plague Marines as Basic troops for your objective secured, a Pimp lord w/ Chaos Spawn, something like that.

I can def see a list running a huge rush of maulerfiends and rhinos, bike lord and spawn, maybe a DP w/ wings. Just dont know if id fill the rhinos with plague marines (personal preference) They are great at holding objectives but i feel my rush would go straight for the throat, maybe use some chosen and use cultists to capture an obj or two. Zerks would be fun to use if they didnt cost what they do. All in all though using two CADs to max out on maulers, could be really fun at that.

This would all be if i still ran CSM, I used to but since ascended to daemonhood

Obligatory plug, although a bit dated (best not bump the thread).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599596.page

I just see Chaos moving further and further away from the whole " Heldrake" reliance.

Don't get me wrong it's a great amazing unit, but I think taking full advantage of the ability to be Battle Brothers w/ Chaos Daemons is great.

Although no one can join squads which sucks, however the ability to buff each other is still really good.

I'm really glad chaos is moving away from the helldrake, it's great and all but you would never see a list not takin it, it was everyone's go to win card, and if you didn't take it the Internet would shun you cause warp forbid should you think outside the box.

Yeah I've been trying out a no Heldrake list on Vasall with Lash Prince and a bunch of armour running at you and it's pretty boss. Objective Secured Plague Marines are really nifty.

Not sure about plague marines say 205 points for 5 man squad with 2 x melta + combi melta + rhino with dirgecaster. The equivalent regular CSM squad would be 135 points (although you only get to have 1 meltagun - obviously everyone swaps out their bolters for bolt pistols).

Assuming you go for 2 units then your spending 140 extra points for:
+1 T, FnP, Fearless, Poison (which no longer affects T4)
4 extra bolters
2 extra meltaguns

But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

All CSM troops suffer from different problems, they don't do OS cheap or effectively. The best we can do is MSU CSMs or NMs in Rhinos.

7th didn't really make CSM any better, they still suffer from having slow, expensive/non-fearless troops.

This says it best.

http://daemons40k.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/chaos-space-marine-reviews-troops.html?m=1

Plus the Heldrake is now 3rd choice Fast Attack behind Bikes & Spawn, it's been hit far too hard with the FAQ.

wtnind wrote:
But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

That's not entirely true. The T5 gives some more survivability (16.6% reduction in wound determination, compared to T4) against low S fire, often discouraging from taking a shot at them. For higher S fire, they still get their 33% FNP chance. And to cancel to FNP they need to be shot with S10. Which would be a win since those expensive S10 shots are not going to your Forgefiend etc.

Alltogether this means if the toughness counts you got about 44% reduction of wounds and if it doesn't count it's still 33%. So I'd say it indeed is much more shooting it needs

Malefic666 wrote:

Plus the Heldrake is now 3rd choice Fast Attack behind Bikes & Spawn, it's been hit far too hard with the FAQ.

Depends on your local metagame I'd say. If you were baleflaming the gak out of marines, then yes. But if you took them to fight massive flyer and FMC spam they are still pretty useful while bikes and spawns do not help with that at all.

wtnind wrote:
Not sure about plague marines say 205 points for 5 man squad with 2 x melta + combi melta + rhino with dirgecaster. The equivalent regular CSM squad would be 135 points (although you only get to have 1 meltagun - obviously everyone swaps out their bolters for bolt pistols).

Assuming you go for 2 units then your spending 140 extra points for:
+1 T, FnP, Fearless, Poison (which no longer affects T4)
4 extra bolters
2 extra meltaguns

But that's the cost of 4 nurgle spawn or an extra maulerfiend. Plague marines are definetly better than their regular equivalents but I don't know if the points might not be better spent elsewhere. If your opponent wants to blow you off an objective it doesn't take that much more shooting to wipe out 5 plague marines than 5 regular marines (especially if its stuff like wave serpents, seeker missiles etc).

blight grenades have their uses

Well, seeing as you can't allocate wounds to models out of fire arc with the baleflamer (why GW!?) the only Drake worth a toss is the Hades one and while I see your point competitively there is no point taking Drakes to take on FMCs. Most serious FMCs (Like those god damn Flyrants!) have access to a 3+ that gimps the Hades (AP4 sucks) & the Vector Strikes are, while useful, are a lot to pay for. Right now, like the Forgefiend, the Drake is about 40 points too expensive. For the price of 3 Drakes a Nid player can nearly get (about 100 points shy) take 3 Flyrants & don't get me started on electroshock grubs or the other flying gribbles.

My advice would be pack up the Drakes right now & put those points into fast melee units. Maulerfiends, Spawn, Daemons, Bikes, Nurgle Princes, even BeLakor, whatever. Win the ground war & kill all their OS/units. Make them pay for putting so many points into things that can't score. MSU Noise Marines or CSMs could fit in too.

I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

Hollismason wrote:
I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

What were you playing against? Were they marked? Any other units supporting them? Im curious cause they point save with normal CSM vs PM is what make me think they could be better in that situation, and with all this CSM talk i want to run them again haha, with Daemon allies of coarse.

Well, 7th edition might have opened the door for a CSM psychic deathstar.

Ahriman
BL Sorcerer with ML3, Terminator armor, Spell familiar, Last Memory artefact
A squad of high toughness ablative models (Chosen, Terminators, Plague Marines, etc)

- Roll on Sanctific to get Sanctuary and Gate of Infinity, increase your invulnerable saves and move forward appropriately
- Trigger the nova with the Last Memory, blind whatever would be shooting at you
- Go to town with Ahriman

It's over 600 points to do this, but it might be tougher than people think. The thread about it is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605521.page#7031313

 Solosam47 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've tried rhino rush with just regular Chaos Space Marines, it did not go well.

What were you playing against? Were they marked? Any other units supporting them? Im curious cause they point save with normal CSM vs PM is what make me think they could be better in that situation, and with all this CSM talk i want to run them again haha, with Daemon allies of coarse.

I was running 5 man squads w/ 1 melta gun, combimelta , backed up with Daemons. It was kind of a "mechanized" list. It just didn't work. I was playing Tyranids then I played it against Eldar.

I can see eldar being a problem, as for nids, i have yet to play against them with anyother army but my guard

When GW opens up a new door for Chaos it is generally just so they can slam it closed right in their face.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
When GW opens up a new door for Chaos it is generally just so they can slam it closed right in their face.

Which is funny cause chaos seem to be one of the most played armies out there, but of coarse we all know GW policy, money money money.

I feel like not enough people take advantage of the fact that Chaos has access to Sanctic Daemonology with their Sorcerers, I've used it a decent amount and it's pretty good honestly.

50% of the Powers are Level 1 so with a spell familiar you'll cast them on 1 warp Charge dice. Easy to dispel but still.


What's a good load out for a Chaos Space Marine Lord that' going to accompany spawn?

Hollismason wrote:

What's a good load out for a Chaos Space Marine Lord that' going to accompany spawn?

Bike to keep up with the spawn.

Buff him to ML 3. (duh!)

Spell Familiar.

I'm digging the Black Legion's Artifacts... particularly the:
The Skull of Ker’ngar: Eternal Warrior, plus Adamantium Will to boot!

The Hand of Darkness: It’s fairly expensive, and reduces you to a single attack, but that 1 attack is at double your Strength, AP1, Armorbane, Fleshbane and causes Instant Death.

I was thinking just a Chaos Lord w/ Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Powerfist, Combiweapon, the 5++ .

Hollismason wrote:
I was thinking just a Chaos Lord w/ Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Powerfist, Combiweapon, the 5++ .

You said Lord... sorry.

Maybe the Murder Sword?

Eh, I've not honestly been impressed by Chaos Lords as a investment I prefer beat stick Daemon Princes running around killing things.

I love the thought of Lords with Daemonheart on bikes accompanying Spawn of Nurgle. throw a Powerfist and the Sword on him to just constantly become more murderous. So satisfying haha

But aside from Spawn keeping Lords company, I really don't tend to take them. I mean, the Eye of Night is really nice with the Haywire Maelstrom effect. I'd never put it on a Daemon Prince just because of cost. Maybe use a Lord to unlock the elites, throw the Eye on him and take a pot shot much like a Loyalist Orbital Bombardment.

It's a 50 point one shot though. That's why I don't really like the Black legion Artifacts most are super expensive for their value.

Although getting a level 4 Psyker is pretty boss.

I just wish Chosen weren't such utter garbage.

I usually give my Lord MoN, Bike, Sigil of Corruption, Daemonheart, Blight Grenades and either a Power Axe or PF/LC, depending a bit on points and opponent.

Not really a fan of any of the special artifact weapons we have on lords, the Aobf is fun for dishing out a ton of attacks with a Juggerlord (which got a lot better with new challenge rules!), but things like the black mace is just so much better on a DP.

As for Chosen they are not a unit I take often, but I have had some minor success with giving them the Pref Enemy upgrade from Crimson Slaughter, load up on plasma guns and infiltrate them (I've been using Huron, but Ahriman isn't looking too bad either now)

Brand of Skalathrax is a relic that always served me well on a bike lord, speeding around hitting things with a flamer before spawn engage in cc.

As for the debate between who is better with the BM, nurgle bike lord vs DP, im going with the DP on that. They just hit so hard it make life easy to activate the BM special rule.

The one fix chosen need, 2+ armor save, like their sternguard enemies. How are you going to survive countless years in the warp, fight countless battles against every living thing in a galaxy where every living thing can kill you, be genetically enhanced, daemon infused, and still only have a 3+......for same chaos, for shame.

Yeah I think overall everyone can agree that chose are a garbage slot compared to everything else in the elites slot and to be honest I think I'm just dumping the Chaos Lord on Bike , why the hell and I spending those points on him again when they could be put to better use anyway.

Makes me super sad chosen are not better than what they are.... tears....

Yeah if they'd have just kept infiltrate. It's just a terrible unit, I mean the only thing I could think of would just to do a Bare Bones, 6 Man Squad w/ 5 Flamers and a Rhino, even that is kind of gakky really.

Yeah I could only run chosen now out of cyphers formation, get them close and depending on Loadout, flame or melts some stuff down before the rest of the army comes to clean up.

Letting them keep infiltrate and maybe giving them +1WS/BS or VotLW for free would have made them viable, imo.

Also, allow them to take god damn bikes and jump-packs. Is that really too much to ask?

Yeah so I am just going to stop using Chaos Lords, I get so much more out of a Daemon Prince or a Sorceror. I just don't see the point in even taking them unless I need to make some Elite squads troops.

Juggerlords and/or Black Mace Nurgle Bike Lords both have NEVER failed me. I find that over the course of a battle they are much harder to kill than a DP, and usually kill more. Plus the juggerlords biggest weakness was MC smash attacks, which he no longer has to worry about as much.

The problem with Chosen is that Havocs already do their job for less points. And why kit them out for close combat when half the codex is already dedicated CC.

I've tried Sanctic Daemonology Sorcerers with Thousand Sons and they are stellar. Gate of Infinity, the +1 invul power, and the roaming D-weapon blast are all excellent powers that compliment them well.

 Badablack wrote:

I've tried Sanctic Daemonology Sorcerers with Thousand Sons and they are stellar. Gate of Infinity, the +1 invul power, and the roaming D-weapon blast are all excellent powers that compliment them well.

Could you elaborate on how you use them, please?

 Badablack wrote:
The problem with Chosen is that Havocs already do their job for less points. And why kit them out for close combat when half the codex is already dedicated CC.

This. Too many people don't realize that there is nothing stopping you from giving your havocs 4x plasmas, flamers, meltas, etc. plus the combi, and almost getting a free rhino when compared to chosen. Havocs aren't just for autocannons (and I feel like in today's meta autocannons kinda don't really do much).

The only REAL difference is the fact your Havocs take up the valuable Heavy Support slot whilst your Chosen, although more expensive, take up your Elite slot, which sadly, suffers from the lack of specialized divisions the Loyalists and other codecies might actually benefit from.

I mean what will we take instead of 4 Plasmagun Chosen, a Hellbrute with a single Plasma Cannon? =/

Termicide? There goes 110 points of Combi-Terminators you are literally THROWING to their deaths (Don't throw your terminators, especially Chaos Terminators, they will poke people, it will hurt)

I just dislike the Elite slot for Chaos in general. Mutilators are trash, Chosen are expensive, Terminators are albeit, cheap, but rather useless. We really don't have much going for us in the Elite slots these days. The best option is to just take a Decimator from Forgeworld and call it a day as you run 3 Maulerfiends + 3 Decimators.

Sanctic Terminator Sorcerers are pretty amazing w/ Obliterators an Expensive unit for sure but with GOI it's well worth it.

To bad that Chaos seems to have no access to homers .

Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

How are some of the chaos options in forgeworld? I know the decimator is pretty good but what about the rest of their forgeworld stuff? both CSM and CD

 azreal13 wrote:
Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

And that extra attack makes them a little nicer, too. I just think about them as short-range Havocs who like to get in close with the enemy. They can deal with an assault better than their counterparts in the Heavy Support section.

 Solosam47 wrote:
How are some of the chaos options in forgeworld? I know the decimator is pretty good but what about the rest of their forgeworld stuff? both CSM and CD

All the most recent forgeworld chaos units are in the Imperial Apocalypse (2013) book, so don't be confused by any lingering free rules on the FW website (theyre really really bad at taking down out of date rules)

-Chaos versions of the Stormeagle, Spartan, and Relic Predators are all pretty good. Spartan is a super-landraider for not too much more points, stormeagle is a flying landraider, and relic predators have cool variants like plasmacutioners or conversion beamers.
-Chaos Contemptor is good, if expensive (can be made very choppy, and very shooty at the same time, or super choppy or super shooty)
-Decimator is about the same as the Contemptor, but probably a little better at pure CC (has deepstrike and free flamers)
-Blood Slaughterers are amazeballs. Very cheap and very very killy, theyre the epitome of what assault walkers should be. Cheap, good armour, tons of attacks, can be taken in squads for durability, have fleet and deepstrike and rampage AND super-rage, AND a harpoon gun that lets them 'charge' the turn they arrive. Downside is that you gotta pay a berzerker tax for CSM, and they move automatically to the closet target (not really a problem when theyre in enemy lines already)
-Plague Hulk that, if youre taking a nurgle grinder, take a plague hulk instead. Pretty much the same, but a bit cheaper (and has a flamer instead of a harvester cannon).
-Blight Drones are cheap flying battlecannons. Nuff said.
-Giant Chaos spawn are pretty average monstrous creatures (T6, 4W 4+save) but boy are they cheap! For 80 points theyre pretty fantastic counter-attack units.
-Chaos Spined Beast is a load of overcosted garbage that's worse in every way to the giant spawn.
-There's some junky named daemon prices, neither of which are very good (the nurgle one maybe, but he's slow as hell)

Don't forget Zhufor, who is pretty much Kharn +1.

Or Necrosius!

You know what chaos needs, a spin off CSM that plays like evil grey knights.

Like a highly elite force of the oldest warp vets that put chosen to shame, low model count but super strong to make up the difference. A group of Horus's elite bodyguard that formed a faction or something. They can take multiple marks, new Daemon units just for that codex, maybe some super vile psychic powers, and a cultist group that is highly customizable to mimic the inquisition. Some alien slave units or something, just all sorts of crazy from the far reaches of the galaxy.

Plus special land raider variants and some access to fallen SM tech. Maybe be lead by one of the clones of Horus, or be abbodons secret weapon for his latest black crusade. Every unit can have a ML 1, very offense oriented in play style.

Honestly, if we just had legion tactics, something like rerolling 1s to hit for a round or rerolling Armor Penetrations for Iron Warriors doctrines or what have you, I'd be happy with CSM.

Right now, Having poured something in the range of 15,000 points into Daemons, with Chaos Space Marines being the inferior Chaos regiment, there is simply nothing they do that Daemons don't already do, but better =/

 azreal13 wrote:
Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

but then they cost 20 points per model rather than 18.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

And that extra attack makes them a little nicer, too. I just think about them as short-range Havocs who like to get in close with the enemy. They can deal with an assault better than their counterparts in the Heavy Support section.

2 extra attacks as they come with ubergrit. Makes for 3 times the number of base attacks, or 2 times as many when charging. It's signifigant, but combat isnt nearly as important as it use to be.

I super enjoy the Murderpack and don't think it get's enough love.

5 Helbrutes with Invisibility or Forewarning is pretty amazeballs. Add in Power Scourges and the fact you get to pick your Crazed Result is pretty amazing.I don't think it get's enough love. It's awesome with Chaos Daemons.

5 Helbrutes
3 Soul Grinders

Yesssssssssssss. It goes really well with a Daemon Bomb army that summons. I tried this out.

Flying Lash Prince
4 Heralds
Pink Horrors
Screamers
3 Soul Grinders
5 Helbrutes

I didn't even upgrade the Grinders.

 Exergy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

but then they cost 20 points per model rather than 18.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Of course, one can always declare you're using a Black Legion CAD and make your Chosen troops, that makes them more appealing...

And that extra attack makes them a little nicer, too. I just think about them as short-range Havocs who like to get in close with the enemy. They can deal with an assault better than their counterparts in the Heavy Support section.

2 extra attacks as they come with ubergrit. Makes for 3 times the number of base attacks, or 2 times as many when charging. It's signifigant, but combat isnt nearly as important as it use to be.

This is unfortunatly true, CC just isnt important anymore i feel and its sad cause that is what i want the most. Gunline armies have had their chance, their 15 minutes of fame. time to throw a wrench in things and give CC its time to shine again. Make bezerkers something to truly be feared instead of easy targets, make all the high shooting armies work for wins and scared of what CC brings to the table. I WANT BLOOD!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is an idea, after seeing the post about someone wanting to replace CSM squads with Havocs, I thought wouldnt it be something if GW did away with god specific units ( zerks, tsons, plague marines, noise marines) and rolled them into CSM squads, so if a CSM squad takes a mark they become that marks marine varient (for example: 20 man squad takes mark of nurgle, BAM! they become 20 plague marines!) this will open up elite slots for new units of each god and still give us the specific CSM squads we know and love. most people only take them when they can make them troop choice anyways, plus it could lower the unit cost and give us more options in our army. No longer would you need lords with marks to "unlock" them.

Yeah, I mean if your kitting out your Havocs for special weapon why not just pay 3 or more points to just take Chosen at that point. It's bs we don't get something like a razorback btw.

With Telepathy being so broken Sorcerers and other units are freaking boss. I mean I did a Telepathy Spam for Psychic Shriek and Invisibility. Using the fact that you get the option of 4 Heralds of Slaanesh if you want is pretty boss.

Chaos Sorcerers w/ Sanctic and Psychic Shriek in Term Armour w/ Terminators is pretty great as well now. Sanctic is really good to now that you get a 75% chance to cast it on 1 dice with a Spell Familiar. +2 Hammer Hand, +1 Invulnerable, Gate of Infinity.

Bel'lakor is a champ with his telepathy, I am making a neww list that utilizes him and getting my other units into CC.

Does a mini deathstar termie sorc unit seem like a viable distraction while i rush CC units up the table?

My new favorite unit now is Helfist Murderpack w/ Autocannons. I love casting invisibility on this unit.

I'm trying out the new " Prospero Deathstar" w/ Ahriman, 2 Sorcerers in Term Armour and Obliterators.

Someone mentioned the heldrake is useless now that you can't allocate wounds to out of your arc of sight.

That's true, but aside from the fact that you could just fly on so that you DO see a lot of models, nothing is stopping you from placing the template wherever you want.

That means, if needs be, you can angle yourself so that only certain models (sergeant, warlord, special weapons, etc) are in your arc, then place the template to cover way more models than what are in your arc. Your wounds are still wounds - they just get allocated to the models in the arc, ensuring those special weapons are dead or forcing several Look Out Sir rolls to be made, with potentially lethal effects.

By the way I've been doing a Slaanesh prince daemonette summoner plus rhino rush and maulerfiend and spawn rush and it's been working like a charm. I wish I could add troop noisemarines, but I can't afford the chaos lord.

Yeah Maulerfiends are insanely good now and I super enjoy them . I need to figure out a easily convertible model for them.

I love the Maulerfiend model as is.

There. I said it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I love the Maulerfiend model as is.

There. I said it.

We all do!

It looks like a dinobot.

Hollismason wrote:
It looks like a dinobot.

For the second time today, I find myself in a position of wondering if a post is arguing for or against something?

Dinobots are awesome.

I like the Heldrake loads too.

 Spellbound wrote:

By the way I've been doing a Slaanesh prince daemonette summoner plus rhino rush and maulerfiend and spawn rush and it's been working like a charm. I wish I could add troop noisemarines, but I can't afford the chaos lord.

This has been working pretty well for me too. I take my rhino marines as melta+combi melta + 3 regulars and all swap for bolt pistols. I recon though that you could just buy some elite noise marines, the only difference is they aren't objective secured which is sucky but not super bad. Get 5 man squads with a doom siren and a lightning claw could do some good damage.

Also seconding dinobots as awesome (well the mauler at least). Heldrakes are still good but if you are playing spawn rush then another 5 nurgle spawn (180) is better than the drake (170).

Yeah, I love the looks with the cables under the ripped flesh So much fun to paint those.

I also love Forgefiends and Maulerfiends as units in game.

Hmmm I didn't think of chaos sorcerers with sanctic.... That's a very good idea considering with spell familiars we pretty much get 2 dice with zero drawbacks from rolling possible doubles.

Does anybody run flamers of tzeentch? I want to make some themed god lists for CD.

I summon them but don't purchase them in the initial list, they are to expensive for my taste but not for summoning as its great to summon them on top of someone and be like " Here, this is for you"

I played a game earlier with the Chaos Sanctic Sorcerer w/ Oblits and just bounced them around. It was rather nice. I liked it. I think Space Marines have a version of that with Tigurius and GravCenturions.

Frequently. They're very good at what they do.

I usually just take a minimum size unit and DS them in on top of some backfield objective camper, unless you get unlucky with scatter (which there are ways to mitigate with Daemons of course) then they can erase many of the typical units used for these purposes in a single shooting phase.

I've also had good success with them just using their mobility to take advantage of any bottle necks that may develop, just recently I had a min unit wipe out a whole unit of DE Wyches and their Archon after they'd become bunched up after winning an assault.

They're also surprisingly durable at T4, 2W and 5++ rerolling 1s, they're not going to tank huge amounts of shooting, but your opponent will need to mean it if he wants rid of them.

It's easy to fall into the trap of comparing them how they used to be, but if you take them as they are, they offer some real utility.

Nobody wants to assault them either!

I totally missed the two wounds part!

Usually in my armies if i take a min deepstrike squad its to kill AV stuff but this sounds like a nice change of pace, summoning them doesnt sound bad either as free units you cant complain!

Thanks for the quick reply

I actually don't think 23pts each is too expensive for their ability either, but YMMV.

Also to consider, although I've never done it, is that they are one of the units that is able to take an upgrade character, and therefore gifts. Don't think there's any killer combos in that, but might be worth thinking about of you're theming a list with them.