The next couple of months GW is all about the grimdark fantasy from the rumours circulating, though mainly focusing on the "bad" factions. Being a WoC and a maybe Tomb Kings player I'm rather excited.
Except that someone should probably recognize those skeleton artworks as being Vampire Counts. It's probably a supplement, but nonetheless those are all VC pieces.
The last image could well just be a black knight or grave guard.
Ehsteve wrote: Except that someone should probably recognize those skeleton artworks as being Vampire Counts. It's probably a supplement, but nonetheless those are all VC pieces.
The last image could well just be a black knight or grave guard.
GW doesn't really have modern Nagash skeletons artwork, do they? The VC pieces are vanilla enough to represent any random necromancer's forces, unlike TK artwork.
Ehsteve wrote: Except that someone should probably recognize those skeleton artworks as being Vampire Counts. It's probably a supplement, but nonetheless those are all VC pieces.
The last image could well just be a black knight or grave guard.
Its been confirmed by a few reliable sources that its a major campaign similar to Sanctus Reach featuring Nagash and his merry blood sucking entourage.
namiel wrote: Well if the nagash rumors are true TK will be a much more competitive army afterward.........
Why? The Tomb Kings drove Nagash from Khemri and are a separate army.
Because in my head nagash belongs with the TK and I said so......
But it's still completely wrong without a complete rewrite of the fluff for Nagash, the Vampire Counts and the Tomb Kings. Nagash hates both of them (the Tomb Kings for driving him out of Khemri and the Vampires for failing him as generals). He wouldn't fit in either army, but his current military might would more closely resemble Vampire Counts without all of the schlock horror stuff. Zombies, skeletons, wights, etc, since he doesn't have a rank and file army any more.
Ehsteve wrote: Except that someone should probably recognize those skeleton artworks as being Vampire Counts. It's probably a supplement, but nonetheless those are all VC pieces.
The last image could well just be a black knight or grave guard.
GW doesn't really have modern Nagash skeletons artwork, do they? The VC pieces are vanilla enough to represent any random necromancer's forces, unlike TK artwork.
Well actually they have a few pieces of artwork mainly from the covers of the Rise of Nagash series (The Sorcerer, The Unbroken, The Immortal).
I wasn't discrediting that it wouldn't be Nagash (or the rumoured supplement coming out next week), just that none of the artwork was actually Nagash, and none of more important the artworks (the last 3 images) are Tomb Kings.
dear god if this is news about TK it would be swell, this old book just did not work for me.
Although I think the imagery is predominantly Vampire Countish... death = zombies and necromancers if they were doing TK , it would be more of an "empire" and "takeover" type of marketing per say.
I don't recall them ever announcing a new Nagash, but I do remember a lot of rumour hubub around Storm of Magic that something about Nagash was in the works, which turned out to be the Nagash novels.
They have been talking about it for days over on Warseer...it's Nagash. There is a battle report with him fighting an ARMY in the next White Dwarf. Yes...by himself. He is supposed to cost more than 500 Skaven Slaves...It's been said that it is a campaign, like the Sanctus Reach stuff. But, it's NAGASH!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope his model looks like the cover of his novel...that would be EPIC!!!
Per Arthurius11 over at warseer. Campaign book and new models incoming.
Originally Posted by Arthurius11 Ok ladies and gents this is what I have heard.
The end times will be coming after grey knights which means they will be going up for pre order 23rd, there will be Nagash, Nagash end times campaign book, plastic spirit host, Mannfred and nightgheist / Arkhan the black / Neferata on some undead monster plastic kit.
There will be a battle report in WD, Nagash vs Tomb kings army, Nagash fights them on his own. He is very expensive.
He can be taken in any undead army. Undead are running rampant through the warhammer world and because of this undead units can be taken in any army.
If Nagash is plastic, there are those hoping he comes with an alternative "classic" head
Sounds like Nagash better have a cannon shield or he'll eat it pretty fast. I was more like thinking, shouldn't this have come out before their financials?
Oh, well. It's not Bretonnia,... maybe it's the crazy rumor of Nagash causing a board wipe and we go to a skirmish game, which would be smart. I like Fantasy more than 40k for what it offers, but the army cost is just too much.
silent25 wrote: He can be taken in any undead army. Undead are running rampant through the warhammer world and because of this undead units can be taken in any army.
Ah. Welcome to the Fantasy version of the Malefic Discipline. Unbound Fantasy can't be far off...
namiel wrote: Well if the nagash rumors are true TK will be a much more competitive army afterward.........
Why? The Tomb Kings drove Nagash from Khemri and are a separate army.
Yup, then he poisoned the entire nation and raised them from the afterlife. Admittedly his hold on them slipped but his original plan was to raise them as a gigantic army of the undead, and given GWs disposition for rewriting fluff it's more than possible, though the art style if it is a Nagash does suggest VC. Or maybe they are going to just return to having an undead army instead of VC and TC? Either way there have been various fluff hints at Nagash not being beyond return over the years.
I agree that Undead in any army sounds aweful, however I'm glad they're brining Nagash back, I still have the old mini to paint after giving him a cheek reduction, it'll be interesting to see what his new sculpt looks like.
I'm glad I stopped playing WHFB. I still use the models and parts of the setting that I like for KoW and WFRP. I'll just ignore the stupidity entirely and possibly pick up any cool models, if only to paint.
Azazelx wrote: I'm glad I stopped playing WHFB. I still use the models and parts of the setting that I like for KoW and WFRP. I'll just ignore the stupidity entirely and possibly pick up any cool models, if only to paint.
namiel wrote: Well if the nagash rumors are true TK will be a much more competitive army afterward.........
Why? The Tomb Kings drove Nagash from Khemri and are a separate army.
Yup, then he poisoned the entire nation and raised them from the afterlife. Admittedly his hold on them slipped but his original plan was to raise them as a gigantic army of the undead, and given GWs disposition for rewriting fluff it's more than possible, though the art style if it is a Nagash does suggest VC. Or maybe they are going to just return to having an undead army instead of VC and TC? Either way there have been various fluff hints at Nagash not being beyond return over the years.
I really hope they don't mess with the TK fluff! The point with TK is that they are non-evil udead, or rather grumpy "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" undead.
Azazelx wrote: I'm glad I stopped playing WHFB. I still use the models and parts of the setting that I like for KoW and WFRP. I'll just ignore the stupidity entirely and possibly pick up any cool models, if only to paint.
Some fine additions to your Grey Legions eh? lol
if the models are good enough, they could even get fast-tracked to the front of the Queue.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Undead in an Empire/ High Elf/Wood Elf/ etc etc etc army. That sounds terrible.
I could not agree with this more, it was bad enough with Storm of Magic when GW tried to shoehorn as many products as they could into existing armies with a fluff be damned attitude via the binding scrolls.
jorny wrote: I really hope they don't mess with the TK fluff! The point with TK is that they are non-evil udead, or rather grumpy "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" undead.
Oh? I thought GW already did this? I recall them ruining the Tomb Kings by making them act like Necrons, and ruining the Necrons by making them act like Tomb Kings.
The tomb kings have no love for Nagash. He was responsible for turning Khemri into a wasteland and the entire population into skeletons. They chased him out which is why he lives in the north in Cripple Peak.
All I know, it might be a pretty huge thing. All they told me after I said Nagash and campaign book. "Still thinking to small." Might be them managers are just teasing.
Daba wrote: I wonder how prophetic this video will actually be in the bigger picture.
Ha! Good one!
Also:
Undead are running rampant through the warhammer worldthe latest sales numbers are abysmal across the board and because of this undead units can be taken in any army.
WFB 'unbound' sounds...horrible.
"Hopefully" they'll 'just' introduce some form of allies system that doesn't completely suck and break the game.
Avrik_Shasla wrote: Much excitement from this one on my end. Mostly because I play empire and my brother plays vc.
Actually, wait.
Odds are, this might be VC vs TK.. TK (except Arkhan) kinda hate Nagash now.
I would hope not to be honest. I mean I don't see them putting Empire in the box but it was rumored a while back. I can see something this big releasing a new box set with the new models coming out for the Vampire counts it'd make sense to see them in some new box. I honestly cannot see a new Warhammer Fantasy box set being something along the lines of Undead vs undead. But maybe I am just full of speculation by this point. We've had no Fantasy release for several months now so I can only imagine that whatever this is going to be is going to be large, I mean come now...THE END TIMES ARE NIGH....that's a big statement.
I don't think they've ever done a "bad guys" Vs "bad guys" box; it's always been notionally good Vs bad (brets Vs Lizardmen, Elves Vs Skaven, Dwarfs Vs Orcs and so on).
I'd assume if there is a new box it'll be Elves/Men Vs Undead.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Undead in an Empire/ High Elf/Wood Elf/ etc etc etc army. That sounds terrible.
I could not agree with this more, it was bad enough with Storm of Magic when GW tried to shoehorn as many products as they could into existing armies with a fluff be damned attitude via the binding scrolls.
Magically binding a creature your will hardly seems "non-fluffy" for WHFB. I can totally see a sorceror trying to control a monster or two (or whatever) through magic.
Kanluwen wrote: I guess people are forgetting the Advent 2013 stuff?
The Restless Dead and Crypt Scavengers existed long before we started getting rumors of Malefic...and it has not really broke the game.
No they have not, infact they have added incredibly fun little instances where you can use them. I wonder though, is there a limit on what armies can use those?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: If made well only. That could also be very frustrating. I wish I could say I had hopes that it would be made well, but… GW :(.
WHFB is designed much better than 40K, so that's something!
jorny wrote: I really hope they don't mess with the TK fluff! The point with TK is that they are non-evil udead, or rather grumpy "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" undead.
Well, I guess Khalida is one of the 'nicer' Nehekharians. Settra, on the other hand, was always evil - in life and afterwards. Maybe not Nagash-evil, but enough to wage war against anyone else and leading slave-raids to Bretonnia and Tilea.
jorny wrote: I really hope they don't mess with the TK fluff! The point with TK is that they are non-evil udead, or rather grumpy "Get off my lawn, you damned kids!" undead.
Well, I guess Khalida is one of the 'nicer' Nehekharians. Settra, on the other hand, was always evil - in life and afterwards. Maybe not Nagash-evil, but enough to wage war against anyone else and leading slave-raids to Bretonnia and Tilea.
The recent Gotrek book had lots of good stuff with Khalida and her thousands of years of love-hate relationship with her Cousin Neferata - Pretty much all the Tomb Kings and Vampires hate and (as much as they can) fear Nagash - as he wants to kill all the living and control the dead - neither of which is good for either faction.
Necrarchs and a few such as Arkhan serve Nagash but they are also bound to him or insane (or both) - Manfred seems to act as he messenger / butler now :( which is annoying.
One of the coolest bad guys in Warhammer makes a killer comeback, and all I see is a page of wails and garment tearing.
His story is fantastic. Read the first three books of his series, and you will see that he is a threat to the entire world. The Tomb Kings fought him in life, only to be eternally cursed by him in death. Settra would cross the world for a chance to strike him down.
The Empire has suffered at the hands of the Vampires in wars that have almost destroyed them on more than one occasion. Nagash returning only makes this an even bigger threat.
Bretonnia is full of the Undead, and the Lichmaster has attacked Athel Loren in the past. Again, a huge threat from within.
There are Vampires in Lustria.
Seriously, this is a story that includes every faction in the game...and all I read is doom and gloom.
How about this....let's wait and see if it is good or bad? Why not get EXCITED for such a cool idea.
News flash! Warhammer Fantasy is IN TROUBLE. Leave it alone? Why? So no one else will play it? It is too expensive for new players to get into. That means that in a few years NO ONE WILL BE PLAYING IT. Guess what happens then...it DIES!
I, for one, and VERY excited that GW is at least TRYING to do something cool with the line. I cannot wait to see how cool this is going to be.
I even play Bretonnians! And you know what? I DON'T MIND that their book was delayed....for NAGASH!!!
I don't recall there ver being a voice over. GW's teaser videos tend to look like they were thrown together pretty quickly and design isn't often taken into account which is funny because their models are so nice as are the design of their books.
I applaud your enthusiasm. While I agree with your sentiment, I sort of liken the situation to a failing MMO with too many bugs. Instead of fixing the bugs that are causing people to stop playing, they're adding new content to endgame, giving people more to do. So, while you may be able to do more, the underlying problems that caused the community to shift are still present, which continues the downward spiral.
Maybe I'm wrong - maybe this is 9th Edition and that will fix the "bugs". I guess we'll see.
News flash! Warhammer Fantasy is IN TROUBLE. Leave it alone? Why? So no one else will play it? It is too expensive for new players to get into. That means that in a few years NO ONE WILL BE PLAYING IT. Guess what happens then...it DIES!
I, for one, and VERY excited that GW is at least TRYING to do something cool with the line. I cannot wait to see how cool this is going to be.
Let's try to be a little more positive here!
It's not in trouble because of the lore or the models...
You actually have the reason why it's in trouble listed in your post. Best case is that it bumps some sales briefly.
The Empire has suffered at the hands of the Vampires in wars that have almost destroyed them on more than one occasion. Nagash returning only makes this an even bigger threat
Yes and no - most Vampires want him destroyed or at least "sleeping" - he wants to eliminate their food supply.............plus they don't tend to do what he says.........
Fantasy is declining because, like everything else, the insane startup costs. It at least seems more balanced than 40k though. I remember the old Nagash and pre-VC Warhammer Armies: Undead.
If the model looks good I told my brother (he used to play Undead back then, even had the old Nagash) I would buy it for him for nostalgia's sake, but nothing would ever get me to play Fantasy again as long as GW does what GW does.
WayneTheGame wrote: Fantasy is declining because, like everything else, the insane startup costs. It at least seems more balanced than 40k though. I remember the old Nagash and pre-VC Warhammer Armies: Undead.
Precisely. WHFB has insane entry costs if you buy your army from scratch and first-hand. Sure, there are cheaper builds. "Cheaper". But have fun playing Skaven, G&O, Tomb Kings, Empire etc. If they go for a Skirmish game, however, WHFB loses its main appeal, the big armies / troops. I would not be interested in a skirmish WHFB game. WHFB, to me, is all about big armies fighting each other. The only way to save WHFB is a price reduction. And that's not going to happen.
WayneTheGame wrote: Fantasy is declining because, like everything else, the insane startup costs. It at least seems more balanced than 40k though. I remember the old Nagash and pre-VC Warhammer Armies: Undead.
Precisely. WHFB has insane entry costs if you buy your army from scratch and first-hand. Sure, there are cheaper builds. "Cheaper". But have fun playing Skaven, G&O, Tomb Kings, Empire etc. If they go for a Skirmish game, however, WHFB loses its main appeal, the big armies / troops. I would not be interested in a skirmish WHFB game. WHFB, to me, is all about big armies fighting each other. The only way to save WHFB is a price reduction. And that's not going to happen.
Bring on warhammer quest & mordheim as entry points to newcomers... run demos of those at salute and gencon... Keep people buying small warbands or expansion packs for warhammer quest ( zombicide formula) even if expensive. in short dilute the idea that WFB is all or nothing type of deal.
According to a BOLS rumor, Nagash is powerful enough to take on an entire army (supposed to be a batrep with him alone vs. a Tomb Kings army), and everyone is able to summon Undead.
Well, there're several factions were it COULD be explained fluff-wise (if you want). Empire had Kreugar's company, Chaos had undead champions and plague skeletons and Lord Kroak is... undead. Sort of. As is Boneripper. And maybe... Kroak's Skink too.
I remember Dwarf ghosts in 'The Dark beneath the World' fighting some Orks and a (deranged) Skaven Necromancer in a WFRP adventure (well, a necromantic dwarf and elf in 'Something rotten in Kislev, too). In more recent publications the Nightmare Legion is mentioned again - maybe you can still hire them.
Of course, I still remember GWs example of Teclis summoning a bunch of khornate Daemons...
New Archaon, new Nagash, new Valten and a full blown expansion similar to Storm of Chaos.
I heard the above rumor quite some time ago while at a GW, i took it with a grain of salt but from that video we saw all 3 of the above.. I really hope it is true.
primalexile wrote: New Archaon, new Nagash, new Valten and a full blown expansion similar to Storm of Chaos.
I heard the above rumor quite some time ago while at a GW, i took it with a grain of salt but from that video we saw all 3 of the above.. I really hope it is true.
Hmm, I wonder how true that could be. I mean Nagash could come back for some very obvious reasons. But Valten could be a stretch, I mean he was only mortal and he was killed...This seems like a great undead expansion theme. I would love to see a new box coming from this. There were rumors a while back about new Empire units being done, new knights and new State Troops (cause they keep sucking when they make them.)
Avrik_Shasla wrote: But Valten could be a stretch, I mean he was only mortal and he was killed...
That whole Valten stuff was such a debacle that I do not think anyone would object if they retcon it away. I mean, building all this tension about this guy being a reincarnation of Sigmar, and then Archaon rolfstomp him to be in turn roflstomped by Grimgor? Seriously?
Is Valten dead in the current 8th edition timeline? I believe the Storm of Chaos has not happened yet has it?
Believed to have been assassinated by Skaven while recuperating from the battle against Archaon. Though there is speculation that a jealous elector count killed him, or possibly the Grand Theogenist, Volkmar the Grim, resurrected and controlled by Be'lakor.
If there is a new Nagash, I may have to pick one up for nostalgia and painting, I have little inclination to start WHFB, but when I played many, many, years ago, I had a force which consisted essentially just of him and whatever came in that old Skeleton box (the one with the chariot.)
If he lends himself to a conversion to become my third, Grim Reaper themed, Daemon Prince of Nurgle, then he will get promoted to the top of the shopping list!
Doesn't look like any of these rumours preclude the rumoured daemon wave either, which is good from a personal standpoint.
Or just wrapping both undead factions back together in one book. The way it was; the way it should be.
I may still be a little bitter from when half my army got cut away...
I used to play a bit of Chaos, back in the day....
WayneTheGame wrote: According to a BOLS rumor, Nagash is powerful enough to take on an entire army (supposed to be a batrep with him alone vs. a Tomb Kings army), and everyone is able to summon Undead.
Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.
Last time he had rules (the unified undead book) Nagash clocked in at 750 points. Which while not a full army, is a reasonable little force. IIRC we were playing 1,500 to 2,500 point games back then at my FLGS. So he might be half your points for a small game, and 1/3 to 1/4 for normal/large games.
I have no idea how he would compare in today’s points, but 750 was also the price of a top-end dragon, to give a sense of scale.
Personally, I think 8th edition is the best WaFaBa's been for almost a decade. 6th was annoying at best, and 7th was better, but 8th really fixed a lot of what was wrong. (Haven't played 1st through 5th, so I can't comment on those, but if it's like anything from GW in the 80's/early 90's, it's probably very expansive, but very vague at the same time.)
Sure I still hate 'wheeling', and sort of wish it was replaced with just 'moving the entire unit block like a HUGE skirmisher'. But the game is built on this mechanic, and really utilizes it well, and to change it would change the entire game.
That being said, creating a smaller scale, skirmish type game to bring in some new people would be awesome! Just don't abandon true WaFaBa to do it.
If there is a new campaign with Nagash then BRING IT ON!! I think he's a great characters to really stir the pot across the entire setting, and I'd love to hear about interactions between races other than the empire, dwarves, high elves, or Bretonia attacking vampire counts, or WoC., or Orcs n' Goblins. We need more skaven vs ogre kingdoms, Lizzies vs wood elves, Dark eves vs chaos Dwarves! (hint, hint, poke, poke).
Considering they haven't made the heirophant for the TK (he's the bone giant, right?), maybe he could share a plastic kit with Nagash? I know it probably wouldn't happen, as they're two different armies, but, hey, they're both giant... skeleton... dudes... right?
Undead were technically my first Warhammer army of any sort, though I never actually got them onto the gaming table. If they bring out a new Nagash army, I'll have to pick it up, even if I don't play Fantasy all that often.
skullking wrote: Personally, I think 8th edition is the best WaFaBa's been for almost a decade. 6th was annoying at best, and 7th was better, but 8th really fixed a lot of what was wrong. (Haven't played 1st through 5th, so I can't comment on those, but if it's like anything from GW in the 80's/early 90's, it's probably very expansive, but very vague at the same time.)
Sure I still hate 'wheeling', and sort of wish it was replaced with just 'moving the entire unit block like a HUGE skirmisher'. But the game is built on this mechanic, and really utilizes it well, and to change it would change the entire game.
That being said, creating a smaller scale, skirmish type game to bring in some new people would be awesome! Just don't abandon true WaFaBa to do it.
Stop trying to make 'WaFaBa' a thing!!! Not gonna happen!!!
I starting to think that the Bretonnians are the only thing that can save WFB!
skullking wrote: Personally, I think 8th edition is the best WaFaBa's been for almost a decade. 6th was annoying at best, and 7th was better, but 8th really fixed a lot of what was wrong. (Haven't played 1st through 5th, so I can't comment on those, but if it's like anything from GW in the 80's/early 90's, it's probably very expansive, but very vague at the same time.)
Sure I still hate 'wheeling', and sort of wish it was replaced with just 'moving the entire unit block like a HUGE skirmisher'. But the game is built on this mechanic, and really utilizes it well, and to change it would change the entire game.
That being said, creating a smaller scale, skirmish type game to bring in some new people would be awesome! Just don't abandon true WaFaBa to do it.
Stop trying to make 'WaFaBa' a thing!!! Not gonna happen!!!
I starting to think that the Bretonnians are the only thing that can save WFB!
Updated Peg Knight dual kit for knight + knight lord... That would be stellar. Plastic Grail/Questing dual kit. New Trebuchet + Cannon(?) dual kit. New plastic lord kit. Maybe something with regards to being big and intimidating or a "Monster in Knight Form" meaning a guy with just astronomical stats being the Lady's Champion?
Oh, and the King being 600+ pts plus and never fielded.
Stop trying to make 'WaFaBa' a thing!!! Not gonna happen!!!
Lol! It was a thing long before I ever heard it. Back when I began playing 40k in the early 90's (back when everyone called it 'War40'), i used to hear it all the time in chat rooms. I always thought it was a cool way of saying it, and just never stopped.
Stop trying to make 'WaFaBa' a thing!!! Not gonna happen!!!
Lol! It was a thing long before I ever heard it. Back when I began playing 40k in the early 90's (back when everyone called it 'War40'), i used to hear it all the time in chat rooms. I always thought it was a cool way of saying it, and just never stopped.
skullking wrote: Personally, I think 8th edition is the best WaFaBa's been for almost a decade.
WaFaBa?
WaThaFu?
And it's wonderful that you think 8th is so great. Sadly, WarFanBat ain't doing so well selling side of things, so GeeDuh is releasing a new one to make some quick cash.
overtyrant wrote: It's not selling so well because of the bleeding start up cost!
This. Absolutely 100% THIS.
I've got roughly 2000pts of Vampire Counts which numbers over 100 models. 70 of those, if I bought them outside of army boxes, would have been in 7 expensive 10 model boxes.
Fantasy is a great game let down by GW making it more expensive to start than saving for a home loan.
The thing is, all they need to do to bring startup costs down is get rid of the percentage system and go back to 7th's unit selections that were more like a Force Organisation Chart.
Stop trying to make 'WaFaBa' a thing!!! Not gonna happen!!!
Lol! It was a thing long before I ever heard it. Back when I began playing 40k in the early 90's (back when everyone called it 'War40'), i used to hear it all the time in chat rooms. I always thought it was a cool way of saying it, and just never stopped.
Never heard either of those, and I've been doing this since the late 80s. 40k and WHFB or "Fantasy Battle". Might be a local thing to your area or certain chat rooms.
the hat's not too bad this time around...
hopefully this is a plastic kit...
leave off the ghosts, and the bones on his back, and he could look pretty sweet...
Regardless of how stupid WHFB gets, or what happens if they go Unbound, etc, I'll probably pick up that model up. Both for Scholo's old times sake, and since my wife loves Undead for some reason...
N.I.B. wrote: I'm excited. This is the first time in a loong while I've considered dusting off my Vampire Counts. Nagash returning in all his awesomeness.
...As wary and negative about GW as I am right now, that image just bore right through my cynical street and I had a moment of glee as i wondered on the models size and was impressed by the Detail (I use to be VERY big into undead stuff, so...)
I have to admit... the models sick. and I quite like the paint job on it at that. I am now a lot more intrigued about where this may go. Still cautious, mind. But... just maybe.
The old model is one of the worst GW models i have seen in the 25 years i am in this hobby.
But i bought Vampire Counts twice and sold them again before i even started, so i will not start a 3rd time.
Especially while my Khemri, which i like more, are also still unpainted.
But i like the Nagashcrons idea!
Just by the one model and add them to my Necron! He can always be used as C'Tan.
Sigvatr wrote: ....why is he a giant? Wasn't the original model normal-sized?
The old one was on a 40mm square? Iirc anway.
Anyway, fluff wise at least, the reason why he is so big, is that, because he is Nehekaran he was bigger than your normal human to begin with, then, to top it off, after becoming a Liche he started eating a gak load of warpstone which made him grow to monstrous proportions, although, I don't recall if it is stated just how monstrous.
It's been 15+ years since I bought a WFB model, I'll buy that on launch and if the rules are decent then come 8th edition I'll be back on the WFB train..
TwilightSparkles wrote: It's been 15+ years since I bought a WFB model, I'll buy that on launch and if the rules are decent then come 8th edition I'll be back on the WFB train..
I'm less impressed with Nagash than some of you are. I would have given him more of an emphasis on his not!Ancient Egyptian roots, like getting rid of the oversized pauldrons and having the fake beard and loincloth look more like the real things instead of being more bones.
A release like this is exactly what fantasy needed. I'll be getting him for sure to use in my 4th ed army, he's truly epic and I can't wait to see bigger pictures. I reckon £65 price tag, I'll be surprised if he's lower. It looks like you could get a couple of spirit swarms out of him as well, maybe 3 if you used bits well, so that helps.
Nagash had me excited for a moment, but then I remembered GW's pricing scheme and that this unposeable plastic toy is going to cost $80+, judging by its size. No matter how appealing I find them, Citadel models are twice as expensive as what I'm willing to shell out. And there's no shortage of fantastic models from other manufacturers at sane prices to spend my money on.
I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Considering how low my expectations for the Nagash model were, the result isn't too bad - certainly it isn't a 'disgust and disbelief on sight' affair like some more recent releases. That said, it's still way over-the-top and silly, with the thousands of bones all over him and the bone-tacles on his back. We get it, he's Undead!
Putting aside the likelihood of an eye-watering price point for him, he isn't going to save WHFB. This campaign/expansion/supplement/whatever the hell it is doesn't address the multitude of core problems with the game, just tries to cover them with more shiny new models. It isn't going to work.
I'm liking where they're going with Nagash. Particularly the souls that are swirling around him as if he's just done a Shang Tsung on some people and is about to absorb them.
I don't get how he can take on an army though, well I guess if you summoned a lot of guys. He's only S7, T7 and W7 so that doesn't seem like a lot - granted I last played WHFB in 5th edition so it was the age of Herohammer, but couldn't a nice unit of cavalry charge him and paste him?
Sucks that they seem to have removed the best part of the old Mortis, the Great Blade of Death (now Zefet-nebrat or something), that any wound caused also healed Nagash.
I have to say that I'm loving that Nagash model. I definitely get a TK theme from the head dress. It's kind of in the background, a good representation of retaining some of that original character but progressing it.
Maybe Bretonians will follow on after this to give some proper Knight based heroism.
I read this rumour on another site a few days ago. Kind of hoping that it gets released soon. Maybe its fantasy's turn to step up to the plate for a few consecutive releases to finish off the 8th ed army books.
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Please release a new skaven book I've been dying for plastic jezzails and new models, probably wont happen for ages but one can dream haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I find it interesting that this image has leaked before anything from brettonia which was said to be released mid/late July then early august now who knows when....probably November :p
I want one, I want two, hell I might even want three just to have a lot of Nagash. But to be fair I've been so far in with Warhammer Fantasy that they could've mailed me a rock with "Nagash" scribbled on it and I would've fielded that monster!
That being said however this model looks amazing, it's towering, a huge step up and says a lot about this return. GW has done a great job with this and this has easily gotten me excited for whatever future releases are coming.
Yeah I want one too. Very fitting, maybe too grandiose and over the top. But then I suppose he is the baddest of the bad and there don't seem to be enough big bad guys in Warhammer.
Plenty of over the top good guys so this balances things a bit really.
Also I want to see the full model and 360, I bet that we are missing a lot of the details that are going to make this model all the more amazing to look at.
ceorron wrote: Yeah I want one two. Very fitting, maybe too grandiose and over the top. But then I suppose he is the baddest of the bad and there don't seem to be enough big bad guys in Warhammer.
Plenty of over the top good guys so this balances things a bit really.
Also I want to see the full model and 360, I bet that we are missing a lot of the details that are going to make this model all the more amazing to look at.
I'm always wary of the usual blurry leaked pictures and usually end up being more positive about a model when we get the real photos to look at, that I gawped at the screen for a minute or two having seen the above then, like you, I can't wait for some better angles!
PuddlePirate wrote: So I take it that this dude makes Sigmar look like a bitch?
Considering Sigmar killed him.. probably not? Due to steadfast characters are a joke vs units.
He has been destroyed on several occasions (Skaven and Sigmar respectively) but claws his way back - much weakened and takes a few centuries to recover strength enough to really do anything.
Don't undead characters crumble if beaten in combat?
PuddlePirate wrote: So I take it that this dude makes Sigmar look like a bitch?
Considering Sigmar killed him.. probably not? Due to steadfast characters are a joke vs units.
He has been destroyed on several occasions (Skaven and Sigmar respectively) but claws his way back - much weakened and takes a few centuries to recover strength enough to really do anything.
Don't undead characters crumble if beaten in combat?
Dunno if 1000 points is worth it, but he's got pretty fething good spellcasting rules all the same, with a 4+/4+ save and 7s and 6s across the board for stats.
Edit: Damn it, way too slow on this draw lol, beaten to it ages ago. Oh well.
You know, the guy that said "poop", after which entire cities of the dead came back to life.
Teclis has always been regarded as on par with Nagash.
Not really?
Teclis has been regarded as the greatest "non-Slann" magic user of the current era--but it is always referred to in such a way that it makes it seem as though nobody knows Nagash is back.
I've always considered Nagash to be more powerful then Teclis. Simply by feats alone, Nagash destroyed the largest human empire to of ever existed and then raised *The Entire Population* as undead slaves. I know Teclis has banished entire Daemonic Legions, but that's not quite on the same scale.
By all means, Teclis could be more skilled and more knowledgeable (except in Necromancy, no one beats Nagash at his own game) but due to Nagash's use of Warp Stone, he is throwing around a lot more power then Teclis.
Not to mention new Mega Hulk Nagash would stomp Teclis's puny ass into the ground before he could even call for his big brother to save him!
WayneTheGame wrote: I don't get how he can take on an army though, well I guess if you summoned a lot of guys.
Well, he is the only level 5 wizard in the game, and he TRIPLE the number of stuff he summons. He could definitely raise a small army every turn.
WayneTheGame wrote: He's only S7, T7 and W7 so that doesn't seem like a lot - granted I last played WHFB in 5th edition so it was the age of Herohammer, but couldn't a nice unit of cavalry charge him and paste him?
I guess cavalry on the charge will likely hit him on 4+, wound him on 5+, he then have a 4+ ward. I think he would be more afraid of cannon. Are they still S10, remove d6HP?
Yeah, and then Kroak and Mazdamundi and Slanns in general (those are still supposed to be the greatest masters of magic in the whole WaFaBa universe, are they?), and then everyone including goblin shaman…
No arm race please. Just Nagash.
You really shouldn't use in-game rules AND also use fluff at the same time for determining who is "best".. Fluff? Yeah slann and nagash are more powerful than Teclis but that's backstory.
Probably not worth the points as he doesn't have access to shadow (death is a decent second choice tho) and has some very specific bonuses to Undeath.. which is alright. He lacks true miscast protection (rerolling the table is much much worse than ignoring the miscast) which is a huge detriment and why Undead often so many games cause their general is so important. I think he's quite the "beater" of a character but the EXACT 1000 pt cost seems lazy on GW's part.
Being a monster is a detriment too as he's easier to shoot. I mean summoning lots of undead is cool and all.. I just don't see him surviving very long vs Skaven, empire, dwarves or any army that has the multiple wound rule.
Well, rerolling every miscast result you don't like that's pretty solid. I'd keep every one but the two at the very ends of the range.
You don't have to worry about losing your last dice on the miscast as you can store dice at any time during the magic phase. I've always taken an earthing ron on my Hierophant and it's saved my game many of times.
Cannons are the issue, but he has access to light. Can he declare his rolls at the start of the each game based on the special rule like KArios can or must he on list creation? Good discussion to have. As Pha's and Net are great vs cannons.
The being a monster is bad, but Lore of Vampires can heal him, He doesn't have Nehek undead rule, which is a detriment to him, can't use the lore attribute to heal him, nor move twice. MI would have been better IMO.
Looks like I'm going to need to start painting skeletons....loooooots of skeletons. It'll be interesting to see what all he can summon. I wonder if they'll keep it more VC specific or if you'll be able to summon TK stuff too. Though I'm getting ahead of myself. I need to wait and see if he can summon things besides just skellies.
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not as horrible as the old model.
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not a horrible as the old model.
Isn't it amazing! People can have different opinions...
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not a horrible as the old model.
Isn't it amazing! People can have different opinions...
Note that I did not say that people cannot have different opinions. I said that I don't understand why people have an opinion other than mine. My deficiency in understanding is my problem, not somebody else's problem. If people enjoy the model, more power to them. But as far as I am concerned it does not look like a well-designed model to me, and I am frankly surprised that other people like it so much.
My purely subjective interpretation is that the positive reaction has been in no small way influenced by excitement about the model representing Nagash. If it was some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag, I honestly think many more people would less enthusiastic about the way the model looks.
Big model + clown hat + covered in bonez + boring pose + tiny, tiny head =/= amazing and awesome.
Reverse the head problem and it's basically got the same faults as the old one. Maybe not as extreme, but still there.
Graphite wrote:In fairness, just about anything would have been a large step up from the original Nagash.
weeble1000 wrote:It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not a horrible as the old model.
Yup.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weeble1000 wrote: But as far as I am concerned it does not look like a well-designed model to me, and I am frankly surprised that other people like it so much.
My purely subjective interpretation is that the positive reaction has been in no small way influenced by excitement about the model representing Nagash. If it was some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag, I honestly think many more people would less enthusiastic about the way the model looks.
My purely subjective interpretation is that the positive reaction has been in no small way influenced by excitement about the model representing Nagash. If it was some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag, I honestly think many more people would less enthusiastic about the way the model looks.
If it was "some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag", I would still be excited.
Because that would be a honking huge new Undead thing for my Vampire Counts...
Would I necessarily be buying said model? Maybe. Maybe not. It would entirely depend upon the model.
But yes most of my excitement is because it is Nagash. And that he is a L5 Wizard with an eclectic mix of spells--and seemingly tied in to a campaign book.
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not a horrible as the old model.
Isn't it amazing! People can have different opinions...
Note that I did not say that people cannot have different opinions. I said that I don't understand why people have an opinion other than mine. My deficiency in understanding is my problem, not somebody else's problem. If people enjoy the model, more power to them. But as far as I am concerned it does not look like a well-designed model to me, and I am frankly surprised that other people like it so much.
My purely subjective interpretation is that the positive reaction has been in no small way influenced by excitement about the model representing Nagash. If it was some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag, I honestly think many more people would less enthusiastic about the way the model looks.
If it was "some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag", I would still be excited.
Because that would be a honking huge new Undead thing for my Vampire Counts...
Would I necessarily be buying said model? Maybe. Maybe not. It would entirely depend upon the model.
I'll buy one of these and sell it on to you for $150. Excited?
I'm surprised I have to explain it, but here goes...
weeble1000 wrote: Note that I did not say that people cannot have different opinions.
weeble1000 wrote: Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not as horrible as the old model.
If you're going to tag differing opinions with "POS, horrible composition, people are blinded by nostalgia", don't expect a warm reception.
Vermis wrote: Big model + clown hat + covered in bonez + boring pose + tiny, tiny head =/= amazing and awesome.
That was my first reaction. The pose especially is terribly vanilla. The unnecessary swirling soul things are all more interestingly and dynamically posed than Nagash, who is just standing there holding a book and lifting a staff, all on the same plane. It is posed as if the model were being cast in a single piece of metal, only it isn't.
I've seen some awesome artwork of Nagash that looks a hell of a lot better than this. This, for example, is an amazing, dynamic modeldesigned by the same company. It is cast in resin, of course, but GW could have easily done something similarly dynamic in plastic.
There are certainly problems with this model, but the pose is at least dynamic and interesting.
For all its faults, GW can make a dynamic plastic model that still casts in three sprues. This one aint it.
It only works half of the time. How many cannons can you buy for 1000 points ?
Well, I can get three cannons...That's as much as I'm allowed to take. Haha.
Oh. I thought you could get much more. If I remember correctly, now there is a system of percentage of rare/special units, no? So, in a 2000 point games, you could bring like 500 points of cannon?
I remember that mercenary unit of cannons moved around by horses .
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not a horrible as the old model.
Isn't it amazing! People can have different opinions...
Note that I did not say that people cannot have different opinions. I said that I don't understand why people have an opinion other than mine. My deficiency in understanding is my problem, not somebody else's problem. If people enjoy the model, more power to them. But as far as I am concerned it does not look like a well-designed model to me, and I am frankly surprised that other people like it so much.
My purely subjective interpretation is that the positive reaction has been in no small way influenced by excitement about the model representing Nagash. If it was some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag, I honestly think many more people would less enthusiastic about the way the model looks.
You're right, I apologise. I was overly snarky.
No problem. I just wanted to note that it was not my intention to insinuate that anyone else was 'wrong' or 'stupid' or that their opinions were any less legitimate than mine.
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not as horrible as the old model.
While I respect that this is your opinion, if you don't have anything nice to say, then keep it to yourself please. You're welcome to sculpt your own if you feel that it could be better...
Vermis wrote: Big model + clown hat + covered in bonez + boring pose + tiny, tiny head =/= amazing and awesome.
That was my first reaction. The pose especially is terribly vanilla. The unnecessary swirling soul things are all more interestingly and dynamically posed than Nagash, who is just standing there holding a book and lifting a staff, all on the same plane. It is posed as if the model were being cast in a single piece of metal, only it isn't.
.
Not the vibe I'm getting from the model at all. Granted, I'm looking forward to a better picture, but to me it looks like he is just now pronouncing the last verse of an incantation from on of the nine books of nagash, raising his staff to channel the raw magic of the warp as his newly awakened legions begin rising from the dirt to do battle for their undead master. Even the souls around him swirl in torment of being reclaimed from the land of the dead, but can't escape their master's call.
It only works half of the time. How many cannons can you buy for 1000 points ?
Well, I can get three cannons...That's as much as I'm allowed to take. Haha.
Oh. I thought you could get much more. If I remember correctly, now there is a system of percentage of rare/special units, no? So, in a 2000 point games, you could bring like 500 points of cannon?
I remember that mercenary unit of cannons moved around by horses .
There's still a numbers cap (3 for special, 2 for rare IIRC). Otherwise, you could take 1000 points of cannon in 2000 as it's a special choice.
If you're going to tag differing opinions with "POS, horrible composition, people are blinded by nostalgia", don't expect a warm reception.
Nope, POS and horrible composition referred to the model, not the opinions.
Otherwise, if you're pledging to chuck money at an overpriced model of immediately questionable design and beardy rules*, don't expect overwhelming agreement for your personal judgement.
*I keep hearing how 8th and steadfast are balanced and stemmed the tide of herohammer. Then Mr. Boneygoomba's reappearance here involves being a one-man army. If this is a sign of things for ninth, watch my hopes drain away some more.
Daba wrote: There's still a numbers cap (3 for special, 2 for rare IIRC). Otherwise, you could take 1000 points of cannon in 2000 as it's a special choice.
Is it “Only 3 special units”, or “Only 3 cannons”, or “Only three of each type of special units”?
If a unit loses a battle but has more ranks than the enemy unit, then the losing unit tests against its regular LD. So if you got a unit of 60 Skaven Slaves that loses 16 Slaves to a unit of 15 Warriors of Chaos, they still test on their normal LD. Which means you may use your general's LD and re-roll the test with your BSB.
Vermis wrote: Nope, POS and horrible composition referred to the model, not the opinions.
Otherwise, if you're pledging to chuck money at an overpriced model of immediately questionable design and beardy rules*, don't expect a lot of regard for your... personal judgement.
Quality passive aggressive posting and a great example of how posts seemingly commenting on the quality of the product in fact comment on the consumer of said product.
Is anyone else excited to see what this guy can do in storm of magic???? Looks like ill be buying its of zombies and skeletons. At least he won't be seen in any competitive enviroment due to his points cost
angelofvengeance wrote: You're welcome to sculpt your own if you feel that it could be better...
Ermargherd, that's like the worst counterargument ever.
Lore of Undeath could summon say terrorghiests and WarSphinxen or only skellies and Tomb Guard.
Undead Legions could totally flip the script and be 50% lords. or up to 100% lords. I believe old He and Brets used to be able to get more % or amount of heros, this could also not fit the standard.
His knees seem to be pointing outward, like an opposite of the french knock kneed pose. Maybe better pictures will change my opinion, but currently I think it is a very boring model with poor design choices.
However, I would immediately give the victory to Nagash for the Warhammer world's ongoing Silly Hat Contest. Gobbos everywhere be mirin'.
If it was "some new model for a generic Vampire Counts monster kit with a $150.00 price tag", I would still be excited.
Because that would be a honking huge new Undead thing for my Vampire Counts...
Would I necessarily be buying said model? Maybe. Maybe not. It would entirely depend upon the model.
I'll buy one of these and sell it on to you for $150. Excited?
Aliathra was rescued by the High Elves but she is in a magical slumber.....................
Hmmm, I don't think that's how it went though. According to the Dwarves book that continued that small story, they rescue her once, and then Mannfred stole her again right under Tyrion's nose.
That being said, I wonder if the upcoming materials related to him kill the rumors of a lower model count WHFB in the near future? (not that I truly believed them, and having a 1000-point big guy goes against of lower point games IMO).
I'm not sure why people are concerned so much about nagash dying to a cannon. Stick him against some terrain piece and just summon stuff all game until you opponent loses.
Not only does he get 3x the amount he can summon but he gets 3x the range (i'm not sure what the the range normally will be?). This means he can summon block stuff easily.
As for what the model looks like, who cares, we all will either like or hate things differently.
NickF509 wrote: I'm not sure why people are concerned so much about nagash dying to a cannon. Stick him against some terrain piece and just summon stuff all game until you opponent loses.
Not only does he get 3x the amount he can summon but he gets 3x the range (i'm not sure what the the range normally will be?). This means he can summon block stuff easily.
As for what the model looks like, who cares, we all will either like or hate things differently.
Aliathra was rescued by the High Elves but she is in a magical slumber.....................
Hmmm, I don't think that's how it went though. According to the Dwarves book that continued that small story, they rescue her once, and then Mannfred stole her again right under Tyrion's nose.
I read the Dwarves section and didn't it just say that they were unable to defeat Mannfreds forces - the Elves book has Mannfred return to confront the Elvish elites but she was still in their hands?
Can you quote the story bit in Dwarves as its the one book I don't have just read it?
DiabolicAl wrote: I seem to be the only one that really doesn't care for this in the slightest. It looks like they have tried to make an Undead Treeman. In fact i would go as far as to describe it as smegging awful. Maybe better pics will help but i am not holding my breath.
Yea, I don't understand why people think this model is anything other than a POS. It is a horrible composition. I think people are just excited about it being Nagash...and not as horrible as the old model.
While I respect that this is your opinion, if you don't have anything nice to say, then keep it to yourself please. You're welcome to sculpt your own if you feel that it could be better...
What? Do you mean if I don't have anything nice to say about the model I should keep it to myself? Because that is what I was talking about. Here I thought that we could discuss miniatures on a website dedicated to discussing miniatures and miniatures games.
Or do you mean that if I don't have something nice to say to the people posting in this thread that I should keep it to myself? As you can tell from my posts, I don't believe anyone's opinion here is 'wrong' or 'bad'. I simply don't think the model looks very good and am surprised that others disagree.
What do you think about the model? What do you like about it or dislike about it?
'Cause that's what I want in Fantasy... larger battles!
Ugh. I cannot imagine the army cost to have a VC undead horde at 4000pts and have board wide summoning on top of that. You also don't have a Vampire Lord at the point level, correct? I never played VC, only against, but don't you need some dude to make sure they don't all start crumbling?
I read the Dwarves section and didn't it just say that they were unable to defeat Mannfreds forces - the Elves book has Mannfred return to confront the Elvish elites but she was still in their hands?
Can you quote the story bit in Dwarves as its the one book I don't have just read it?
That's the fun thing about it. The VC book mentioned the events involving Mannfred conspiring to bring back Nagash so he set a trap for the High Elves and captured Aliathra.
The High Elves book mentioned the efforts to rescue her so they were bros with the dwarves. And then it ends saying they're confronted by Mannfred's army.
Now in the Dwarves Book, we see what happens immediately after going:
"Even as his minions perished beneath gromril hammers, Mannfred hacked his way through the Elf ranks, wounding or slaying many of their heroes and once again captured Aliathra, spiriting her away into the darkness. Thus was a great victory soured. To make matters worse, Tyrion showed no gratitude to the Dwarfs, instead blaming them for the loss of Aliathra."
And now Nagash is making a return? Coincidence? I think not.
I'm interested to find out was this "Undead Legions" is and also am digging what look like the new Spirit Hosts flying around Nagash. I don't even have an theories on Undead Legions. Possibly Wight King-type leaders and skeleton units but none of the things that make Tomb Kings or Vampires unique (so like no sphinx or vampire in the army)? Possibly? It sounds like the Lore of Undead might be something like Malefic Daemonology from 40k where all the spells are just different summoning spells for Undead units.
His Master's Voice wrote: [
Quality passive aggressive posting and a great example of how posts seemingly commenting on the quality of the product in fact comment on the consumer of said product.
Quite right, quite right! Passive aggressive mucking about is one of my pet peeves on internet forums, and while I was trying to be somewhat tactful I see that it was a pretty poor and thinly-veiled attempt. So let's fix that now.
This model is bad, for reasons I and others have already stated. Not as bad as the old Nagash model, but bad. I don't quite know why people can look at that pic, avoid seeing the obvious deficiencies, and instead applaud it as a fantastic design. I can only guess that, yes, their judgement is impaired by a number of factors, including:
A) The near-legendary status of Nagash in the real world (of Warhammer players, at least) as well as the WaFaBa world; the poor reception of the previous model (going so far as to 'not count' in some minds, I'd guess) and the long period without an official, in-production model or up-to-date rules. The thing is, the return of Nagash is a fairly momentous occasion in the game (and as desperate as Primarch models: I seem to recall a similar studio attitude about not bringing them [back] in-game because of their sheer power and godlike status. Same reason the C'tan were downgraded to 'shards'.) but that doesn't automatically mean that the long-anticipated model is good. It merely means that the long-anticipated model exists.
B) Passive or even bad attributes that get confused for 'good design'. Size, for one. GW players seem to be especially prone to the old jokey male stereotype that 'big toys are better'; only in this case it gets applied to more literal toys (and hats) rather than cars or power tools.
Also, the misconception that 'covered with detail' = 'good sculpting'. Again, that doesn't indicate that good sculpting is present, only that there's a lot of sculpting present. I've seen non- and ex-GW gamers complain about how the amount of fiddly detail on some GW models takes away the pleasure of painting, and I can't disagree. In addition, there's the nature of the detail: from here it basically looks like gothic or venetian plate armour utterly cluttered and caked with bones. Bonez bonez bonez. This is not creative or imaginative. It's only the relative lack of head bones that prevents it being the complete apotheosis of one of the aspects (miniature design) that makes GW the laughing stock of the rest of the wargaming world.
Lastly, for this point, another of my pet peeves: a whole lot of wibbly, finicky detail meant to wow the credulous observer and distract them from the fact that it's a lot of superficial dressing over an also-unimaginative and pedestrian design. So he's finishing the casting of a powerful incantation. You can't see that, All you can see is him just standing there like a lemon, with one hand pointed skywards. How many other GW models, especially characters, are and were posed in the same way? The only thing that'd make it more cliched is if he did the Captain Morgan pose with one foot resting on a rock. Or a skull.
And that's not even touching the "buy this it's kewl and it'll win you loads of games!" rules.
C) The infantilised nature of GW that seems to be lapped up by it's fanboys. The attitude among 20-30 year-olds that GW's increasingly teen-targeted ranges have the bestest setting and bestest models and bestest rules, and how blessed you are to just sit there and allow GW to plop these jewel-like items of wonder in your lap (in exchange for scads of cash in excess of what similar wondrous jewel-like items cost) rather than bother with all that boring effort of taking control of your gaming and increasing your awareness outside the GWetto. The attitude that minis are just better if they're blinged up and badazz, dusted in skullz and spikez, looking more and more like kids' action figures. The attitude that the minis should have so many beneficial extra rules, (super)powers and arbitrary exceptions that sound more and more like a schoolyard game of bang-I-shot-you-nuh-uh-I-have-super-ultra-mega-forcefields-nuh-uh-I-have-hyper-uber-handwavium-bullets-that-blow-up-super-ultra-mega-forcefields, all shoved in to make you coo at it as if it means something interesting or ingenious or halfway mature, and make them appealing (to buy); and that all this cramming of complications, patches, speedbumps and OTT whims somehow makes Warhammer 'balanced' and 'competitive'.
All these attitudes that foster GW's attitudes, to the point where the upper management call you - YOU - sheep, that will buy any old crap they put out. Where 'the GW hobby is buying GW products'. Where they shaft the retailers and customers alike, worldwide, and try to do the same to component manufacturers, authors, and whoever else wanders into their narrow field of vision. All this uncritical - or worse - critical but otherwise unconditional hoovering-up of GW's offerings, to the point that GW and fans have become stuck in some vicious circle where worsening prices; bloated, planned-obsolescence rules; and goofy, lazy models are not only seen as normal but as a good thing by some. I've said elsewhere that GW is like the Justin Beiber of wargaming: widely popular and can at least carry a tune, but marketed to kids, churns out cheesy pablum, gobs on it's fans, and increasingly believes it's own hype and doesn't give a gak for anyone else. Only now have enough people grown up, wised up and had enough of GW's shenanigans to make a difference, but leaving GW so spoilt and inbred that it has little idea and little hope of turning round, becoming more mature and reasonable, or fixing itself in some way.
If you squee like a fanboy over this model just because it's there, it's big, it's covered in bones, and it has broken rules, you're still perpetuating that circle. Or - since the circle's collapsing anyway - the perception of GW gamers as brainwashed manchildren, even among other tabletop wargamers (who still play with toy soldiers!) with a more balanced hobby - which might still include GW games. If you don't like the thoughts that GW is up a creek, that your most beloved games are riddled with problems that either don't go away or are replaced or even added to with different problems, or that meany people laugh because you gleefully line up to empty your wallets to receive those problem games and shonky models, maybe it's not entirely down to GW, elitist grognards, or the fascist public. Maybe you should occasionally take a moment to look and consider.
Meh, I don't really like it...it's...weird. The model doesn't look too bad for modern GW standards. The proportions are off, but the model is...ok.
It's just...well...it's only usuable at 4000+ points battles. That alone is...ugh. You can't proxy it for another regular caster because of its giant size. And what, to me, is the worst: the rules. If you want to play him effectively, you basically put him behind cannon-proof cover and then just have him standing there pumping out more undead.
How is that fun? Having a huge, impressive model that does nothing but sitting around in the backyard, basically becoming more of a marker? That's...not very fun promising. Meh :(
I'm really not sure why everyone keeps suggesting that he will "only be usable in 4000+ points battles".
We haven't seen what the "Undead Legions" army list does yet. For all we know, Nagash is the only choice for Lord/Heroes and thus he uses up all your points for that. Or that he gets fielded by himself and is your points allotment.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm really not sure why everyone keeps suggesting that he will "only be usable in 4000+ points battles".
We haven't seen what the "Undead Legions" army list does yet. For all we know, Nagash is the only choice for Lord/Heroes and thus he uses up all your points for that. Or that he gets fielded by himself and is your points allotment.
I prefer to judge based on what we have, not what there might be
The book explicitely states that he is a Lord choice, though.
Sigvatr wrote: Meh, I don't really like it...it's...weird. The model doesn't look too bad for modern GW standards. The proportions are off, but the model is...ok.
It's just...well...it's only usuable at 4000+ points battles. That alone is...ugh. You can't proxy it for another regular caster because of its giant size. And what, to me, is the worst: the rules. If you want to play him effectively, you basically put him behind cannon-proof cover and then just have him standing there pumping out more undead.
How is that fun? Having a huge, impressive model that does nothing but sitting around in the backyard, basically becoming more of a marker? That's...not very fun promising. Meh :(
Hierotitan as well as Khermitic Titan and Necolith Colosus (Last two from Monsterous Arcanum) do not have a model, this would be cool stand in for any of those. Base size does matter though.
Personally I am going to reserve judgement on how good the model is or is not until we have better quality pictures and a lot more of them. A proper sense of scale and 360 degree shots will help me decide whether I like it or not.
Sigvatr wrote: Meh, I don't really like it...it's...weird. The model doesn't look too bad for modern GW standards. The proportions are off, but the model is...ok.
It's just...well...it's only usuable at 4000+ points battles. That alone is...ugh. You can't proxy it for another regular caster because of its giant size. And what, to me, is the worst: the rules. If you want to play him effectively, you basically put him behind cannon-proof cover and then just have him standing there pumping out more undead.
How is that fun? Having a huge, impressive model that does nothing but sitting around in the backyard, basically becoming more of a marker? That's...not very fun promising. Meh :(
Well, and that's where the dilemma is IMO. Either the model never gets used because it is price at an absurdly high point level (and thus generally purchased for display) or they shoehorn the model in to the regular game, thereby devaluing all of the other models on a game-by-game basis that the customer paid so much money for.
What I think GW should really be doing is building narrative books with these models involved, particularly in scenario missions or something. Give them a decent amount of scenario support to integrate them into the game without breaking the regular game in the process.
I highly agree. Models like Nagash are far too powerful to be represented on tabletop, similar to the C'tan in 40k. Those models are awesome for specific scenarios, e.g. Nagash fighting back invaders. In a regular battle, it feels shoehorned in :(
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