I would have liked ghostly fire instead of filled with skulls nightmares, but i will probably buy a mortarch kit, Nagash, and possibly the books for my Birthday in November.
Well I have to say that Nagash looks superb to me. I think it is just one of those kits that collectors and painters will buy, and there seem like a fair few 40k conversion possibilities too. Whether people buy Undead armies as a result is different matter.
MalusCalibur wrote: I disagree. Undead does not equate to 'all is skulls'; in fact I'd argue it's a very simplistic and lazy way to convey the theme - doubly so when taken to such extremes as in this latest batch of models.
Bone constructs have been a staple of fantasy imagery for decades. You might not like the execution of GW's variant, but it's nowhere near the ridiculousness of having skull pits under metal pavement or mounds of skulls piling up against a trench wall, which is what people generally have an issue with.
Does the kit that makes Neferata come with a version on foot? You know, in case her mount gets killed? Because I might consider getting her then. If I have to convert up my own on-foot version of that big hat I'm going to be very angry with GW.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Well I have to say that Nagash looks superb to me. I think it is just one of those kits that collectors and painters will buy, and there seem like a fair few 40k conversion possibilities too. Whether people buy Undead armies as a result is different matter.
After reading it elsewhere, I feel compelled to share: Imagine that Nagash miniature tied by a piece of string to a ceiling fan...
isn't that being mean to poor nagash? him spinning around the room; then string breaks and he flies into a wall and dies...again....horribly
i hope, in time, GW releases rules for "proper" epic heroes/villains.
I'm still waiting for a proper "living" lord kroak (the one described in the 6e, 7e, 8e army book as destroying demon armies with a mere gesture, and raising entire continents with a spell, and casting such powerful spells, that time and reality started to rip apart (yet he kept on going)...
And imagine sigmar, or Aenarion in terms of combat ...
I disagree. Undead does not equate to 'all is skulls'; in fact I'd argue it's a very simplistic and lazy way to convey the theme - doubly so when taken to such extremes as in this latest batch of models.
New around here, huh?
What does that have to do with what MalusCalibur said?
The revelation that GW likes lots of skulls.
I specifically addressed GW's love of skulls in my original post, so no, it is not a revelation nor am I 'new around here'. You seem to have entirely missed my point - I have always agreed with the criticism of the skull-overload, and was questioning why it is apparently lacking when discussing this latest batch of releases, where we have a monstrous mount literally filled with skulls. I was also debating the explanation that the skull/bone explosion 'makes sense now', because I consider it an underwhelming and poorly thought-out way to convey the themes of the undead aesthetic just to stick a load of bones and skulls on the models.
MalusCalibur wrote: I disagree. Undead does not equate to 'all is skulls'; in fact I'd argue it's a very simplistic and lazy way to convey the theme - doubly so when taken to such extremes as in this latest batch of models.
Bone constructs have been a staple of fantasy imagery for decades. You might not like the execution of GW's variant, but it's nowhere near the ridiculousness of having skull pits under metal pavement or mounds of skulls piling up against a trench wall, which is what people generally have an issue with.
Agreed - but I'd hardly consider a bone-tabard, bone-hat or bone-tacles to be categorised under 'constructs' in the same vein as the Tomb King ones (Giant, Scorpion, Catapult). And I'll say again, there is a monstrous mount that is filled with skulls. They don't form any real part of the creatures' structure nor do they offer it any kind of mobility or combat advantage - they're just there. How does that not fall into the same category of idiocy as the examples you listed?
Why? Most of the stuff you can't even use cause its too many points.. IE any lord on a monster mount for the most part (because all of the ones shown are wizards)
In case you are interested, here is my response to Tom:
Thank you for your email. Please accept our most sincerest apologies for posting the articles which contained the images. The said articles have been removed from our website as demanded.
You are probably already aware that there are many more sites out there which are hosting these images, so I expect that your team will busy hunting down all of these scoundrels. I hope you the very best in your endeavors and I genuinely hope that your efforts are not in vain, after all those bloggers sure are sneaky!
I know I have already expressed how deeply sorry we are for posting the images but to further prove how deeply ashamed we are for offending you we have made a nice little picture for you guys in the legal team:
All the best from the Talk Wargaming team!
Kind Regards,
Pete
MalusCalibur wrote: Agreed - but I'd hardly consider a bone-tabard, bone-hat or bone-tacles to be categorised under 'constructs' in the same vein as the Tomb King ones (Giant, Scorpion, Catapult). And I'll say again, there is a monstrous mount that is filled with skulls. They don't form any real part of the creatures' structure nor do they offer it any kind of mobility or combat advantage - they're just there. How does that not fall into the same category of idiocy as the examples you listed?
Because the context is, or rather can be different. One can be explained within the setting to be anything (including not being actual skulls at all) - a power source, a soul prison, hive consciousness of the beats, a weapon waiting to be unleashed, etc, etc. The other begs the question as to why is there a mass grave consisting exclusively of skulls beneath the road and not much else.
One can tell a story, the other cannot.
As for Nagash, bone ornaments are nothing uncommon in fantasy. Sure, the bonetacles and boneard might not the best part about the model, but I wouldn't decry the use of cartilage as a decorative element as something fundamentally lazy.
StarFyre wrote: isn't that being mean to poor nagash? him spinning around the room; then string breaks and he flies into a wall and dies...again....horribly
i hope, in time, GW releases rules for "proper" epic heroes/villains.
I'm still waiting for a proper "living" lord kroak (the one described in the 6e, 7e, 8e army book as destroying demon armies with a mere gesture, and raising entire continents with a spell, and casting such powerful spells, that time and reality started to rip apart (yet he kept on going)...
And imagine sigmar, or Aenarion in terms of combat ...
Regards,
Sanjay
For the most part, I'm happy if GW leave the mega-heroes to the imagination for the most part. One or two here and there like Nagash is ok, but I don't really want WHFB to become like 40k with it's Lords of War.
Ha, I have no idea how you would game with some of those models, but they made me laugh in a good way. Steeds full of skulls? I dunno, I felt like it fits in with the tongue in cheek style GW used to have before the grimdark super seriousness.
The spirit hosts are just awesome. Great concept and great execution. I thought GW's SW release was lazy, but I tip my cap for this release. Good stuff.
Fugazi wrote: Ha, I have no idea how you would game with some of those models, but they made me laugh in a good way. Steeds full of skulls? I dunno, I felt like it fits in with the tongue in cheek style GW used to have before the grimdark super seriousness.
The spirit hosts are just awesome. Great concept and great execution. I thought GW's SW release was lazy, but I tip my cap for this release. Good stuff.
Agreed! The old models just didn't strike me as particularly terrifying opponents...
I think in response everyone should start posting pics of the original Nagash model, claiming that is the new one.
This kind of BS is really too much for such a small industry. it's just ugly, and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I can't understand how anyone would support a company that lays the smackdown on its biggest fans like this.
This aspect of the model bothers me as well, that and the gen hat size, i also feel that they are over using the floating of spirits theme a bit much, but really nobody ever accused GW of having great proportions on their models and i love the new hosts. Overall i think this is more win than miss, which i havent said about a GW release for awhile now.
Fugazi wrote: Ha, I have no idea how you would game with some of those models, but they made me laugh in a good way. Steeds full of skulls? I dunno, I felt like it fits in with the tongue in cheek style GW used to have before the grimdark super seriousness.
The spirit hosts are just awesome. Great concept and great execution. I thought GW's SW release was lazy, but I tip my cap for this release. Good stuff.
Agreed! The old models just didn't strike me as particularly terrifying opponents...
I dunno, the terror of the unknown; are those robes sculpted to be ragged or is it just finecast bubbles?
This aspect of the model bothers me as well, that and the gen hat size, i also feel that they are over using the floating of spirits theme a bit much, but really nobody ever accused GW of having great proportions on their models and i love the new hosts. Overall i think this is more win than miss, which i havent said about a GW release for awhile now.
To be fair, the floating spirits are about the only thing GW has done well, so I guess they figured since the floating spirits came out so good they should put them on everything!
Hrmmmmm...this Nagash model looks like trash...I think we should add some of those cool floating spirit things. And more...whadya call it...more swooshy bits. Like, a lot of swooshy bits. Nobody else does swooshy bits. That's our thing, so put in more swooshy bits. OH! And bones. Don't forget bones. These guys are undead, so there should be, like, 1000% more bones.
Mr. Merrett, I can't possibly put in more bones. I mean, look at his hat. It is already trimmed in bones.
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK! Put a ribcage on that hat.
There's just no room Mr. Merrett. I'm sorry.
So make the hat bigger! And don't forget the swooshy bits. I'm going to come back here in half an hour and I expect to see more swooshy bits.
Bear in mind he's a human from an ancient civilisation, that has prolonged his life to the point of functional immortality and used to draw power from ingesting warpstone powder. He was last killed/banished by a weapon so powerful it killed its bearer within hours and only then did the weapon work because he was surprised.
Anyhow imagine what 40K could be like if GW showed similar purpose to advance the fluff beyond "oh noes a big fight near eye of terror and the necrons/tyranids conveniently not a big threat lol" stalemate.....
I can see End Times being a Sanctus Reach style product leading into a new WFB edition with some new Empire/Elves to meet the threat unless somehow the Bretonnians get wrapped in, which I suppose is possible given their background. Either way I am certain we will see something for the "good" guys in the coming months.
I can see End Times being a Sanctus Reach style product leading into a new WFB edition with some new Empire/Elves to meet the threat unless somehow the Bretonnians get wrapped in, which I suppose is possible given their background. Either way I am certain we will see something for the "good" guys in the coming months.
I can see it now. "Ultra Valten" who now stands fifteen feet high (thanks to special spellz from Teclis) wielding the "MurderHammer of Sigmar" and Louen Leoncoeur's shield riding in a magical floating chariot pulled by Karl Franz's mega rooster. Every turn he can use his special "MurderSmite" ability on any undead within 2d6 inches. Self respect sold separately.
(PS. In an attempt to one up Nagash, Ultra Valten wears a cannon as a hat. The cannon has lots of skull iconography.)
People still stuck n the size of Nagash's head..? Seriously, he warped his body with warpstone, do any sorta reading into what that stuff does and see that it's a miracle that's the only thing abit out of proportion from the rest of his body!
GenRifDrake wrote: People still stuck n the size of Nagash's head..? Seriously, he warped his body with warpstone, do any sorta reading into what that stuff does and see that it's a miracle that's the only thing abit out of proportion from the rest of his body!
Somehow, the "Warpstone did it" line doesn't really make it more aesthetically pleasing for me. I keep on chanting "warpstone did it," but I'm not warming up to the sculpt at all.
GenRifDrake wrote: People still stuck n the size of Nagash's head..? Seriously, he warped his body with warpstone, do any sorta reading into what that stuff does and see that it's a miracle that's the only thing abit out of proportion from the rest of his body!
Somehow, the "Warpstone did it" line doesn't really make it more aesthetically pleasing for me. I keep on chanting "warpstone did it," but I'm not warming up to the sculpt at all.
This is my thought as well, sniffing warpstone could have also made him grow a giant butt on his face, butt that would not make me think it was any cooler, and really, isn't looking cool half the battle.
GenRifDrake wrote: People still stuck n the size of Nagash's head..? Seriously, he warped his body with warpstone, do any sorta reading into what that stuff does and see that it's a miracle that's the only thing abit out of proportion from the rest of his body!
Somehow, the "Warpstone did it" line doesn't really make it more aesthetically pleasing for me. I keep on chanting "warpstone did it," but I'm not warming up to the sculpt at all.
This is my thought as well, sniffing warpstone could have also made him grow a giant butt on his face, butt that would not make me think it was any cooler, and really, isn't looking cool half the battle.
Well each to their own, maybe some people would hate it if his head was larger and bring back the big headed Nagash jokes, can't please everyone..! If it's just the head you have an issue with i'd say it could be worse, overall I really like the model, though I think the colour scheme of choice could be better and the pic from earlier of someone photoshopping his hat to be smaller definately looked better. It's the price that's the real thing to feel disgusted about with it. x_x.. doesn't matter if he's a 1,000pt model, just ouch.
It's just slightly irritating that, ok, yes, he's all powerful and immortal and cannot die.
But he can still be knocked out for the duration of an actual battle by taking 3 cannonballs to the face and bam there goes 1000 points and suddenly you're taking a bajillion crumble tests
I know I was surprised by how many races now have one. As I was coming back to the game from the era when Empire and Dwarfs were the only ones to fear.
Micky wrote: I actually tend to think Nagash should have the Ethereal rule just to reflect his immortality.
when he dies, in the fluff his spirit bursts from his corporeal form (I say that, because his skeleton has been blasted/hammer-smashed so twice, so it probably is not his actual skeleton anymore)
Xyxel wrote: What's with bone beard and bone tendrils? Chaos mutations? High hat?
Wanted to come back around to this as I missed it... I think the model just needs a complete head swap and it could be amazing. There's no saving the dinky head size compared to the body.
I repose to standing on a ledge, scrapping the books, good head swap, and Bob's your uncle, I'd say. Or, for nearly the same cost, buy the Creature Caster zombie dragon, name it "Nagash" and just roll with that.
Do you play against Dwarfs all that often? If you do and they're not taking cannons, well that's a matter unto itself. Nagash can still instagib himself with a Miscast (only gets a reroll and MUST use the second result).
He's not a character you want to see in a game of WHFB more than you'd want to see the Emperor of Mankind in 40k. In those sorts of systems, standard RnF troops just don't really matter when it comes down to the skirmish level (and even a 4,000pt battle is still not an awfully large battle [maybe at most 500 bodies each side unless you're putting down nothing but Skaven Slaves]).
Nagash would rank just under a first generation Slann in terms of raw power (and there are none of those left except for Kroak, who is dead and only sometimes uses a minor portion of his power in the physical world to throw some spells around). Again, Kroak is in a severely weakened state and because of this he can fit (just barely) into the scale of WHFB. Perhaps his best equivalent would be Lord Mazdamundi.
It just baffles me that anyone would want to use him in his current form (when did he grow twenty feet tall and start stomping around the battlefield?) of rules or the ghastly model
not common at all. To put in in perspective, most games average around 2,500. I believe GT's like brawler bash get to 3,000 not allowing Grand Armies, but it feels like the more common spot is 2,400-2,500.
Under normal rules characters like nagash are limited to a max of 25% of your army total, so being 1,000 points, he'd be your only lord choice. combined with his monster frame, depending on your opponents it may well be a fools errand to bring him, because a good number of armies like to bring things to counter monsters, and he is by far the best one to shoot. he will most likely be the general, and when the general in an undead (VC for perspective, although a TK heirphant could apply here) army dies the whole army can take extra damage. so for all his power, when he dies, it is calamitous.
The thing that confuses me here is that people complain about the very things that make the Nagash mini work. His costume is too ornate! His body is too big for his head! He floats four feet above the covers! He reads!
Exactly. Nagash lived bodiless and/or in a cave with nothing but a bunch of skeletons and warpstone for hundreds of years. On a scale from sane to cabin fever, Nagash sits at Gigerzord Bonepope. I mean, he's one sweaty-toothed madman. The dude was already putting the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again long before he even lost his body the first time. He hated people so much that it-it- the f - it -flam - flames...flames, on the side of his face, breathing-breathl- heaving breaths.. heaving breaths... and that was before he even went all Pet Sematary. Crazier than gakhouse rat he was, and the Skaven can verify that. It really isn't hard to see what happened.
Year 205
Nagash: Sure is lonely in this mountain. I mean, all I've got to read is Paradise Lost, Moby Dick and Catcher in the Rye, and I'm so sick of them. It's a good thing I'm keeping busy writing my own books and crafting my armor or I'd probably start talking to myself. Right, friend?
Skeleton:
Nagash: We sure have gotten to know each other a lot over the years, haven't we? What was your name, again?
Skeleton: *squeaks*
Nagash: Right. D'artagnan. Well, Darty, what do you think of my crown?
Skeleton: *jaw hinges open*
Nagash: I suppose it could use a bit more pizzazz.
Year 555
Nagash: Welp, you were right. I don't stand out enough compared to the other skeletons. But I really like this skull. I put a lot of time into the angry eyesocket brows. Still, Darty, you're the artist. I defer to your aesthetic.
Skeleton:
Nagash: More imposing, you say? No. That's ridiculous. 8 heads tall is really quite distinctive. No, I've never met your sister's boyfriend. Besides, he's been dead for centuries.
Skeleton:
Nagash: Oh. Right. I guess he's still digging the lido cavern, then. Well, you were right about the hat. Taller it is! I think there was a giant sloth skelly 'round here somewhere...
Year 614
Nagash: Shut your smug mouth, Darty! I don't care what Mummy says. I am too a great writer! You take back those awful things you've said or I'll turn you into a loincloth, like your sister's boyfriend!
Skeleton:
Nagash: I could quit warpstone any time I want. I'm in total control of myself. Pancakes. That's why I don't need to quit. It keeps me centered, like my writing. Tick-tock-penny-clock. What side-effects?
Skeleton: *collapses into heap*
Nagash: You're not my mother!
Year 1,047
Nagash: Zbip-bip nubbity. The walls are closing in, but the purple don't shine. Bit-bit zevuvim, we're together forever. *strokes skeletal chin beard* You and me, Darty. Closer than any lovers, and twice as nasty. It's us against life, that queen biznatch warbler. Us against life. Two more days before I finish my great novel about the little tailor coming to terms with the gorgon's menstrual cycle. Then I'll have nothing left... Hold me.
The thing that confuses me here is that people complain about the very things that make the Nagash mini work. His costume is too ornate! His body is too big for his head! He floats four feet above the covers! He reads!
Exactly. Nagash lived bodiless and/or in a cave with nothing but a bunch of skeletons and warpstone for hundreds of years. On a scale from sane to cabin fever, Nagash sits at Gigerzord Bonepope. I mean, he's one sweaty-toothed madman. The dude was already putting the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again long before he even lost his body the first time. He hated people so much that it-it- the f - it -flam - flames...flames, on the side of his face, breathing-breathl- heaving breaths.. heaving breaths... and that was before he even went all Pet Sematary. Crazier than gakhouse rat he was, and the Skaven can verify that. It really isn't hard to see what happened.
Year 205
Nagash: Sure is lonely in this mountain. I mean, all I've got to read is Paradise Lost, Moby Dick and Catcher in the Rye, and I'm so sick of them. It's a good thing I'm keeping busy writing my own books and crafting my armor or I'd probably start talking to myself. Right, friend?
Skeleton:
Nagash: We sure have gotten to know each other a lot over the years, haven't we? What was your name, again?
Skeleton: *squeaks*
Nagash: Right. D'artagnan. Well, Darty, what do you think of my crown?
Skeleton: *jaw hinges open*
Nagash: I suppose it could use a bit more pizzazz.
Year 555
Nagash: Welp, you were right. I don't stand out enough compared to the other skeletons. But I really like this skull. I put a lot of time into the angry eyesocket brows. Still, Darty, you're the artist. I defer to your aesthetic.
Skeleton:
Nagash: More imposing, you say? No. That's ridiculous. 8 heads tall is really quite distinctive. No, I've never met your sister's boyfriend. Besides, he's been dead for centuries.
Skeleton:
Nagash: Oh. Right. I guess he's still digging the lido cavern, then. Well, you were right about the hat. Taller it is! I think there was a giant sloth skelly 'round here somewhere...
Year 614
Nagash: Shut your smug mouth, Darty! I don't care what Mummy says. I am too a great writer! You take back those awful things you've said or I'll turn you into a loincloth, like your sister's boyfriend!
Skeleton:
Nagash: I could quit warpstone any time I want. I'm in total control of myself. Pancakes. That's why I don't need to quit. It keeps me centered, like my writing. Tick-tock-penny-clock. What side-effects?
Skeleton: *collapses into heap*
Nagash: You're not my mother!
Year 1,047
Nagash: Zbip-bip nubbity. The walls are closing in, but the purple don't shine. Bit-bit zevuvim, we're together forever. *strokes skeletal chin beard* You and me, Darty. Closer than any lovers, and twice as nasty. It's us against life, that queen biznatch warbler. Us against life. Two more days before I finish my great novel about the little tailor coming to terms with the gorgon's menstrual cycle. Then I'll have nothing left... Hold me.
... sir, I would like a hard backed collectors edition of your fluff.
His Master's Voice wrote: Because the context is, or rather can be different. One can be explained within the setting to be anything (including not being actual skulls at all) - a power source, a soul prison, hive consciousness of the beats, a weapon waiting to be unleashed, etc, etc. The other begs the question as to why is there a mass grave consisting exclusively of skulls beneath the road and not much else.
One can tell a story, the other cannot.
As for Nagash, bone ornaments are nothing uncommon in fantasy. Sure, the bonetacles and boneard might not the best part about the model, but I wouldn't decry the use of cartilage as a decorative element as something fundamentally lazy.
The trouble with that is it can equally be applied to the example you gave. What if those skulls under the road are an elaborate trap set by Chaos worshippers, each skull hiding a primed grenade? What if servants of Khorne imprisoned souls within skulls and then imprisoned them beneath the earth? If you're going to make up explanations, then they can equally used to explain anything, and so I think it makes far more sense to critique the design based on what is known, not a myriad of vague possibilities that have no real supporting evidence.
No, bone ornaments are not uncommon, but they only work in moderation. In the ridiculous quantities present on Nagash and his friends, it crosses the line into parody and silliness. If Nagash just had the skulls on his belt, or just the tabard, or just a bone-themed headdress (though not quite as towering as the one he has), it wouldn't be nearly as bad - the fact that every single decoration is bone themed comes across as lazy, because it suggests the designers had no other ideas to make him look undead, evil, or intimidating. The exact same problem present in the skull-overabundance that is so often maligned everywhere else.
In our area, every Dwarf player takes at least one, usually two. Every DoC player takes two. Every Ogre player has at least one. Every Empire player has anywhere from 2-4 (including Stanks). Every Skaven player has at least one, if not two, WLC. Pretty much every army that has the capacity to take a cannon equivalent (with the exception of WoC) in our area takes at least one, if not the maximum available.
Our most recent tournament on last Saturday had 24 participants, and just over 25% of them had at least one cannon. That doesn't count the two VC players that had their "cannon" in the form of 1-2 'Geists, or the four DE players, of which at least two had Death magic available to the army.
As cool as Nagash is, if you're using him in a largish game (like a 4K game where he would normally be useable), there is a distinct likelihood of him dying early in the game to anti-big-stuff weapons.
Anyhow imagine what 40K could be like if GW showed similar purpose to advance the fluff beyond "oh noes a big fight near eye of terror and the necrons/tyranids conveniently not a big threat lol" stalemate.....
I can see End Times being a Sanctus Reach style product leading into a new WFB edition with some new Empire/Elves to meet the threat unless somehow the Bretonnians get wrapped in, which I suppose is possible given their background. Either way I am certain we will see something for the "good" guys in the coming months.
They'll advance the fluff and then retcon it like the Storm of Chaos. SURPRISE!
MalusCalibur wrote: The trouble with that is it can equally be applied to the example you gave. What if those skulls under the road are an elaborate trap set by Chaos worshippers, each skull hiding a primed grenade? What if servants of Khorne imprisoned souls within skulls and then imprisoned them beneath the earth? If you're going to make up explanations, then they can equally used to explain anything, and so I think it makes far more sense to critique the design based on what is known, not a myriad of vague possibilities that have no real supporting evidence.
A bunch of skulls in a pit do not carry the same narrative potential a bunch of skulls filling an undead construct do. If you're genuinely convinced they do, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
MalusCalibur wrote: The trouble with that is it can equally be applied to the example you gave. What if those skulls under the road are an elaborate trap set by Chaos worshippers, each skull hiding a primed grenade? What if servants of Khorne imprisoned souls within skulls and then imprisoned them beneath the earth? If you're going to make up explanations, then they can equally used to explain anything, and so I think it makes far more sense to critique the design based on what is known, not a myriad of vague possibilities that have no real supporting evidence.
A bunch of skulls in a pit do not carry the same narrative potential a bunch of skulls filling an undead construct do. If you're genuinely convinced they do, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
So if you fill everything with skulls, cover everything with skulls, style everything's hair with a fine skull paste and eat only bowls of skullios, by the same literary math as a million monkeys at a million typewriters, you'll eventually create something where skullmageddon actually has "narrative potential". It took GW 25 years of an increasingly overwhelming skull fetish, but by god, they did it!
They'll advance the fluff and then retcon it like the Storm of Chaos. SURPRISE!
I think they'll take the opportunity to wipe out a few minor races that have never really been supported with mini's or books - like Kislev. I'm sure they'd try to get rid of Araby as well if it was anywhere near the chaos wastelands. I can see them merging Brets and Empire as well and trying to make them more IP protectable.
MalusCalibur wrote: Agreed - but I'd hardly consider a bone-tabard, bone-hat or bone-tacles to be categorised under 'constructs' in the same vein as the Tomb King ones (Giant, Scorpion, Catapult). And I'll say again, there is a monstrous mount that is filled with skulls. They don't form any real part of the creatures' structure nor do they offer it any kind of mobility or combat advantage - they're just there. How does that not fall into the same category of idiocy as the examples you listed?
Because the context is, or rather can be different. One can be explained within the setting to be anything (including not being actual skulls at all) - a power source, a soul prison, hive consciousness of the beats, a weapon waiting to be unleashed, etc, etc. The other begs the question as to why is there a mass grave consisting exclusively of skulls beneath the road and not much else.
One can tell a story, the other cannot.
As for Nagash, bone ornaments are nothing uncommon in fantasy. Sure, the bonetacles and boneard might not the best part about the model, but I wouldn't decry the use of cartilage as a decorative element as something fundamentally lazy.
TBH, I think criticizing the model on that basis is lazy.
If I had to explain what bothers me about the Nagash model, I think I'd first point to its lack of dynamism. The pose seems very stiff and upright, especially above the waist -- shoulders level and in line with the hips, etc. The flying spirits appear to be there to help give the overall composition some movement, but I'm not sure that they succeed.
The overall lines of the model also seem much more graceful than menacing -- many more gentle curves than threatening edges. The recurve lines you see in the protuberances and the tabard are suggestive of a human spine, but I think they subtlely lend a serenity to the model that doesn't thematically fit the big baddie of the Warhammer world, even if he's an wizard by trade. I'd like to see more aggression in the model. Overall, I also feel like the model is lacking soul and an organic quality somehow, perhaps as a result of CAD design.
Note that all this doesn't mean that I dislike the model. If I actually played WFB anymore, I'd strongly consider getting one. I think it also has a lot of good things going on, and it takes me back to the 4th ed. army book when I started the game. I also might very well change some of my criticisms after seeing the model in person.
Have to say, that long shot of Nagash does help the whole thing look less distorted. I've still no desire to own it, but I now have less of a compulsion to run away screaming.
I think his head will look fine with a smaller hat. It exemplifies the smallness of his head, which isn't actually that small it's just the hat is big, his chest is very barrel shaped and every other GW model is fething bobble headed.
I would hate to transport him. Not only is he an expensive model, he’s going to require a good sized chunk of custom foam to get anywhere in one piece.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think his head will look fine with a smaller hat. It exemplifies the smallness of his head, which isn't actually that small it's just the hat is big, his chest is very barrel shaped and every other GW model is fething bobble headed.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think his head will look fine with a smaller hat. It exemplifies the smallness of his head, which isn't actually that small it's just the hat is big, his chest is very barrel shaped and every other GW model is fething bobble headed.
Hmm, doesn't look like it:
Yeah, still looks a bit small, but a lot better IMO.
His Master's Voice wrote: Because the context is, or rather can be different. One can be explained within the setting to be anything (including not being actual skulls at all) - a power source, a soul prison, hive consciousness of the beats, a weapon waiting to be unleashed, etc, etc. The other begs the question as to why is there a mass grave consisting exclusively of skulls beneath the road and not much else.
One can tell a story, the other cannot.
As for Nagash, bone ornaments are nothing uncommon in fantasy. Sure, the bonetacles and boneard might not the best part about the model, but I wouldn't decry the use of cartilage as a decorative element as something fundamentally lazy.
The trouble with that is it can equally be applied to the example you gave. What if those skulls under the road are an elaborate trap set by Chaos worshippers, each skull hiding a primed grenade? What if servants of Khorne imprisoned souls within skulls and then imprisoned them beneath the earth? If you're going to make up explanations, then they can equally used to explain anything, and so I think it makes far more sense to critique the design based on what is known, not a myriad of vague possibilities that have no real supporting evidence.
No, bone ornaments are not uncommon, but they only work in moderation. In the ridiculous quantities present on Nagash and his friends, it crosses the line into parody and silliness. If Nagash just had the skulls on his belt, or just the tabard, or just a bone-themed headdress (though not quite as towering as the one he has), it wouldn't be nearly as bad - the fact that every single decoration is bone themed comes across as lazy, because it suggests the designers had no other ideas to make him look undead, evil, or intimidating. The exact same problem present in the skull-overabundance that is so often maligned everywhere else.
Given the skulls in the constructs are painted glowy green like ghosts I'm taking the liberty to say they're being used as soul filled batteries to power the things.
You know, I think they were trying to go for a bishop / egyptian style with Nagash's hat.
Which sort of makes sense, considering how they are trying to make Nagash a blend of Tomb Kings (Egyptian) and Vampire Count (European) aesthetics.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I think they were trying to go for a bishop / egyptian style with Nagash's hat.
Which sort of makes sense, considering how they are trying to make Nagash a blend of Tomb Kings (Egyptian) and Vampire Count (European) aesthetics.
I thought that they were going for a Chaos Dwarf thing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I think they were trying to go for a bishop / egyptian style with Nagash's hat.
Which sort of makes sense, considering how they are trying to make Nagash a blend of Tomb Kings (Egyptian) and Vampire Count (European) aesthetics.
I put my money on Jaffar from the 1992 Disney movie (add the old Arkhan model as well - heck, he was even a Grand Vizier).
TheKbob wrote: This thread, if anything, makes me want to go get a Lizardman book and get busy. Before, I just thought it was "lulz, DINOWIZARDS!"
Would it worth getting a cheap copy of the softback and thumbing through it, Lizard fans?
As interesting reading? Sure. Some great stuff in the older books, lots of flavour and character. 6th Edition Slann were amazing, they could come from different generations, and the older they were the more all-powerful they would be.
These days, all Slann are 5th Gen, with Kroak (aka. Zombie-Slann) the only 1st Generation slann, and Mazdamundi is probably 2nd or 3rd Generation.
Hopefully we can get some more leaks about the book soon, i'm keen to know what's gonna be in that one lore and rules wise, since we've all critiqued the models to death already.
I am curious whats going on in the lesser expanded upon parts of the world, that are near these events, like Araby and Ind. curious to see how brets play out
Laemos wrote: How common are 4000 point games. People keep mentioning them and that seems like a lot of models on a table.
I played a game a few weeks ago that was 12,500 points per side. We each took up a whole 16-foot deployment zone. It was also Storm of Magic, so we had combat on top of Turn 1. It was epic and awesome and I wish we'd had time for more than two turns. I live for games like that!
Laemos wrote: How common are 4000 point games. People keep mentioning them and that seems like a lot of models on a table.
I played a game a few weeks ago that was 12,500 points per side. We each took up a whole 16-foot deployment zone. It was also Storm of Magic, so we had combat on top of Turn 1. It was epic and awesome and I wish we'd had time for more than two turns. I live for games like that!
How long did 2 turns take?
With 16' deployment zones you must have spent hours just setting up.
Big games of both 40k and fantasy are probably my favorite aspect of the hobby. Biggest fantasy game I've ever played was 1v2, skaven vs. Empire and Dwarfs (fluffy!), 6,000 points per side. 'Twas a blast!
If you've never seen 6000 points of painted skaven on the table, you've missed out on life!
I will probably get the book immediately, but I'll grab Settra and add him to my Tomb Kings first, then I'll be able to do the 4,000 points thing and we can play fluffy battles! Huzzah!
His Master's Voice wrote: A bunch of skulls in a pit do not carry the same narrative potential a bunch of skulls filling an undead construct do. If you're genuinely convinced they do, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I fail to see how they are any different - both are examples of a large collection of skulls in a single place where they are not usually found. Inventing fluff-based justifications is either equally valid for both, or equally invalid. Nothing about having a monster stuffed with a pile of skulls is inherently any more "narrative" than having the same skulls on the ground, in a trench, or anywhere else.
gorgon wrote: TBH, I think criticizing the model on that basis is lazy.
If I had to explain what bothers me about the Nagash model, I think I'd first point to its lack of dynamism. The pose seems very stiff and upright, especially above the waist -- shoulders level and in line with the hips, etc. The flying spirits appear to be there to help give the overall composition some movement, but I'm not sure that they succeed.
The overall lines of the model also seem much more graceful than menacing -- many more gentle curves than threatening edges. The recurve lines you see in the protuberances and the tabard are suggestive of a human spine, but I think they subtlely lend a serenity to the model that doesn't thematically fit the big baddie of the Warhammer world, even if he's an wizard by trade. I'd like to see more aggression in the model. Overall, I also feel like the model is lacking soul and an organic quality somehow, perhaps as a result of CAD design.
Note that all this doesn't mean that I dislike the model. If I actually played WFB anymore, I'd strongly consider getting one. I think it also has a lot of good things going on, and it takes me back to the 4th ed. army book when I started the game. I also might very well change some of my criticisms after seeing the model in person.
Fair point - I've honed in on the perhaps 'easy' target of the bone/skull apocalypse because it was the first thing that caught my attention with all the models, and, on Nagash at least, when they are removed the improvement is substantial (there is a photoshopped image in this very thread somewhere that aptly demonstrates this).
That only makes the model better, though, not objectively 'good' - I agree with you about the pose and the spirits, the latter having been applied in overabundance to all the models shown and I think all of them would be improved by their removal. But the bone-overload is really what tips each model from 'not very good' to 'utterly silly, uninspired, and non-threatening'.
godswildcard wrote: Big games of both 40k and fantasy are probably my favorite aspect of the hobby. Biggest fantasy game I've ever played was 1v2, skaven vs. Empire and Dwarfs (fluffy!), 6,000 points per side. 'Twas a blast!
If you've never seen 6000 points of painted skaven on the table, you've missed out on life!
I will probably get the book immediately, but I'll grab Settra and add him to my Tomb Kings first, then I'll be able to do the 4,000 points thing and we can play fluffy battles! Huzzah!
I love the "idea" of playing large battles. I love the imagery in my mind of huge fantasy armies facing off. In practice, the logistics of actually doing a battle destroys any fun in it. I'd rather paint 2000pts of models reasonably well than throw together 6000pts of ugly models, assuming I have the time to do anything beyond assemble them anyway. Then you have transporting the army, the fact you have to dedicate a full day or possibly even 2 to play the game. The size of the table you need to play it on.
You don't assemble 6000 points of models in one go, unless you want to punish yourself, it's something you collect over years so you have time to paint them in whatever quality you normally aspire to.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Any chance the original poster can update the first post?
Yeah, I do hate it when a poster will just drop something in the news/rumor section, then never bother updating the first post, even if other commenters post more info/pics later in the thread.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I love the "idea" of playing large battles. I love the imagery in my mind of huge fantasy armies facing off. In practice, the logistics of actually doing a battle destroys any fun in it. I'd rather paint 2000pts of models reasonably well than throw together 6000pts of ugly models, assuming I have the time to do anything beyond assemble them anyway. Then you have transporting the army, the fact you have to dedicate a full day or possibly even 2 to play the game. The size of the table you need to play it on.
If there is one thing I've learned in 13 years in the hobby, it's that you can't approach a big game with anything other than the most laid back mentality possible. People often try to apply the same mindset to big games that they do to small ones or tournaments, and that just won't work. If you're double-checking every measurement and rule, wondering what the absolute most effective move is, or standing there with your finger on a piece after moving, then yes, a big game will take FOREVER and it likely won't be any fun.
But if you're just spending the day with your friends, knocking back a few cold ones and laughing hysterically as the dreaded 13th turns a unit of Halberdiers into rats, only to have the grey seer implode casting skitter leap immediately after. That's what they're all about. That's what I think I love most about big games...it matters less who wins or loses and more that you're just having a good time. Which is why I'm all about this Nagash expansion. It gives people a reason to play big games of fantasy! "You want to run a 1,000 point lord? Sweet! Let's throw down!"
Shandara wrote: You don't assemble 6000 points of models in one go, unless you want to punish yourself, it's something you collect over years so you have time to paint them in whatever quality you normally aspire to.
Yeah I usually get bored of an army after a year or two
Regarding huge games, the easiest thing to do is use a ruleset that is build for huge games, instead of overburdening one that is designed for smaller games.
For example, using the Warmaster rules to play large games of Warhammer. You'll still have a 2-3 hour game but you'll have about a thousand miniatures on the table. Or more.
I dunno. If a drug has a possible side effect of making you an unkillable and massively powerful necromantic overlord, then I'd chomp down the stuff for breakfast. I mean, I owe it to my future self, right?
Laemos wrote: How common are 4000 point games. People keep mentioning them and that seems like a lot of models on a table.
I played a game a few weeks ago that was 12,500 points per side. We each took up a whole 16-foot deployment zone. It was also Storm of Magic, so we had combat on top of Turn 1. It was epic and awesome and I wish we'd had time for more than two turns. I live for games like that!
How long did 2 turns take?
With 16' deployment zones you must have spent hours just setting up.
Spent about an hour-plus deploying, then the two turns (both sides) took about 5-6 hours. It was brutal right off the bat: Warriors of Chaos and Dark Elves against Empire and Dwarves, plus various monsters from Storm of Magic. Things hit the fan fast and hard.
I'm as fond of bashing GW as much as the next guy, but let's be realistic when it comes to giant hats and fake beards: When we're talking about undead necromancer Liche-kings, a certain degree of ponce is mandatory. Nagash should really be the ponceyest ponce who ever ponced a ponce. A hat that's not a minimum 8 ft tall would undermine his credibility as lord of the undead. When you're a mortal general it's expected that you dress practically for battle. When you're an immortal undead overlord who has shed the bonds of flesh and no longer cares for the joys of food, drink, and the warmth of a lover's embrace, the only purpose left in life is to make sure you look absolutely fabulous.
To that end, my only criticism of the model (apart from its thoroughly unnecessary size creep and attendant price-creep) is that it has too much armour and not enough needlessly extravagant robes with pointy shoulder pads. I want his pointy shoulder pads to have pointy shoulder pads. Those weird spine spikes on his back need fine satin capes to be billowing off of them. Instead of being born aloft by tormented spirits, I want to see Nagash wearing them like robes.
When you have the raw magical power and warpstone-fueled madness to sculpt everyone who makes fun of your giant hat into a freaking skeleton loin cloth, you don't hulk and brood in giant suits of armor, you strut and swagger..
JOHIRA wrote: I'm as fond of bashing GW as much as the next guy, but let's be realistic when it comes to giant hats and fake beards: When we're talking about undead necromancer Liche-kings, a certain degree of ponce is mandatory. Nagash should really be the ponceyest ponce who ever ponced a ponce. A hat that's not a minimum 8 ft tall would undermine his credibility as lord of the undead. When you're a mortal general it's expected that you dress practically for battle. When you're an immortal undead overlord who has shed the bonds of flesh and no longer cares for the joys of food, drink, and the warmth of a lover's embrace, the only purpose left in life is to make sure you look absolutely fabulous.
To that end, my only criticism of the model (apart from its thoroughly unnecessary size creep and attendant price-creep) is that it has too much armour and not enough needlessly extravagant robes with pointy shoulder pads. I want his pointy shoulder pads to have pointy shoulder pads. Those weird spine spikes on his back need fine satin capes to be billowing off of them. Instead of being born aloft by tormented spirits, I want to see Nagash wearing them like robes.
When you have the raw magical power and warpstone-fueled madness to sculpt everyone who makes fun of your giant hat into a freaking skeleton loin cloth, you don't hulk and brood in giant suits of armor, you strut and swagger..
Exalted, and quoted onto another forum for pointedness and awesome.
JOHIRA wrote: I'm as fond of bashing GW as much as the next guy, but let's be realistic when it comes to giant hats and fake beards: When we're talking about undead necromancer Liche-kings, a certain degree of ponce is mandatory. Nagash should really be the ponceyest ponce who ever ponced a ponce. A hat that's not a minimum 8 ft tall would undermine his credibility as lord of the undead. When you're a mortal general it's expected that you dress practically for battle. When you're an immortal undead overlord who has shed the bonds of flesh and no longer cares for the joys of food, drink, and the warmth of a lover's embrace, the only purpose left in life is to make sure you look absolutely fabulous.
To that end, my only criticism of the model (apart from its thoroughly unnecessary size creep and attendant price-creep) is that it has too much armour and not enough needlessly extravagant robes with pointy shoulder pads. I want his pointy shoulder pads to have pointy shoulder pads. Those weird spine spikes on his back need fine satin capes to be billowing off of them. Instead of being born aloft by tormented spirits, I want to see Nagash wearing them like robes.
When you have the raw magical power and warpstone-fueled madness to sculpt everyone who makes fun of your giant hat into a freaking skeleton loin cloth, you don't hulk and brood in giant suits of armor, you strut and swagger..
This man understands Wizards, like nobody in GW ever can.
JOHIRA wrote: I'm as fond of bashing GW as much as the next guy, but let's be realistic when it comes to giant hats and fake beards: When we're talking about undead necromancer Liche-kings, a certain degree of ponce is mandatory. Nagash should really be the ponceyest ponce who ever ponced a ponce. A hat that's not a minimum 8 ft tall would undermine his credibility as lord of the undead. When you're a mortal general it's expected that you dress practically for battle. When you're an immortal undead overlord who has shed the bonds of flesh and no longer cares for the joys of food, drink, and the warmth of a lover's embrace, the only purpose left in life is to make sure you look absolutely fabulous.
To that end, my only criticism of the model (apart from its thoroughly unnecessary size creep and attendant price-creep) is that it has too much armour and not enough needlessly extravagant robes with pointy shoulder pads. I want his pointy shoulder pads to have pointy shoulder pads. Those weird spine spikes on his back need fine satin capes to be billowing off of them. Instead of being born aloft by tormented spirits, I want to see Nagash wearing them like robes.
When you have the raw magical power and warpstone-fueled madness to sculpt everyone who makes fun of your giant hat into a freaking skeleton loin cloth, you don't hulk and brood in giant suits of armor, you strut and swagger..
This man understands Wizards, like nobody in GW ever can.
Terry Pratchett would be taking notes!
...
would be.
(._. )
As I recall, Nagash's original body was destroyed quite a while ago by the Fellblade (excepting the hand that crawled away); it is completely reasonable that a Necromancer of his caliber could animate a better body from parts of other bodies.
While his skull and bone tally is at appropriate levels, I think JOHIRA nailed it in saying that it fails in spike, ribbon, and agonized souls of the dammed tally.
there's images of the WD where GW specifically says that the End Times will be a call to heroes to rise to the threat (or something like that) and such, Nagash's book will include a rule allowing for 50% of your list to be Lords choices.
I would think that this means that Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, and any other army with super expensive lord choices will be rejoicing as their super deluxe special characters now have a shot at seeing the table below 3k.
theFNGuy wrote: there's images of the WD where GW specifically says that the End Times will be a call to heroes to rise to the threat (or something like that) and such, Nagash's book will include a rule allowing for 50% of your list to be Lords choices.
I would think that this means that Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, and any other army with super expensive lord choices will be rejoicing as their super deluxe special characters now have a shot at seeing the table below 3k.
Ruddy hell - when I saw the £65 price tag I thought GW was starting to go mad. But he's HUGE. Lovely model but the 'centre piece' kits are just getting way too big IMO. You need so much motivation just to put these together let alone give them a decent paint job. Then there's the fun of transporting them.
... It includes the full rules that will allow you to field Nagash and his loyal subjects - along with all-new rules for some of the most powerful heroes of the Old World, such as Valten and Vlad von Carstein - in your games of Warhammer...
theFNGuy wrote: there's images of the WD where GW specifically says that the End Times will be a call to heroes to rise to the threat (or something like that) and such, Nagash's book will include a rule allowing for 50% of your list to be Lords choices.
I would think that this means that Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, and any other army with super expensive lord choices will be rejoicing as their super deluxe special characters now have a shot at seeing the table below 3k.
No doubt the first step of "unbound armies" for WFB.
:-(
It's probably nothing, and I'm sure some of the other countries are showing him still in stock, but the US webstore is showing Settra as 'Temporarily out of stock'.
I know it probably IS just out of stock and is just a HUGE oversight as far as GW is concerned (Hey! Check out this awesome opponent for our awesome new model! Oh, but you can't buy him...we'll let you know!)
BUT it would be cool if they came out with a super cool new model kit for him. Although I think his model is just fine, I'm sure they could make a cool new plastic kit!
It is odd how scale changes things. At first glance it just seemed a bit to busy and 'meh' but when seen just how much bigger it is when in scale it makes a lot more sense.
I notice the picture on the GW homepage has him flanked by units of both TK skellies and VC skellies. Wonder if that means the rumours of him uniting TK and VC are true.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I notice the picture on the GW homepage has him flanked by units of both TK skellies and VC skellies. Wonder if that means the rumours of him uniting TK and VC are true.
From the product description of the Nagash book:
There are also army lists that allow you to create a unified army of Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts known as the Undead Legion.
undead legion.... hmmmm this I can get on! I can't say I enjoyed any of the new TK models, and Settra could use an update also, his facial silhouette is pretty horse-like
The new Nagash model really makes me want to finish my WFB Castlevania project. Or at least work on it a bit. Or maybe just find the box I stuffed them in...
Also made me dig for the old Undead army book, as well as my Wargods of Aegyptus book for some reason. I'm going to have to get some of the Bones not-Egyptians to reenact the BL. Nagash trilogy.
Equipment: Two Handguns (This seems wrong to me... but I think that's what it translates as. On second though it could be '2 Hand Weapons' and either I or GW have failed at translating) Heavy Armour
Special Rules: Floating, (Hover? Fly?) Death Strike, (Killing Blow) Undead, Terror, Heralds of the Detested: --Units with this special rule and all friendly units with the special rule Undead who are 12 UM or elements of them (within 12") will suffer a Wound less than normal due to Unstable special rule (in addition to other modifiers that apply)
Special Rules: Floating, (Hover? Fly?) Death Strike, (Killing Blow) Undead, Terror, Heralds of the Detested: --Units with this special rule and all friendly units with the special rule Undead who are 12 UM or elements of them (within 12") will suffer a Wound less than normal due to Unstable special rule (in addition to other modifiers that apply)
So they either have fly or hover (assuming fly) and help with combat crumbling
scarletsquig wrote: Seems to be getting to the point where the large minis are more mantelpiece ornament than practical gaming piece.
This. I got really excited about the new Nagash model... and then I saw it''s fantasy's answer to the Wraithnight/Riptide. I mean, a big kit with a big price tag is understandable, but I was expecting Nagash on a mount like a chariot or a shrine or something.
I'm not up on Nagash's fluff (having a second bash at the Time of Legends books as we speak), but is he... supposed to be that... big?
Black Lantern wrote: I don't really care what the score with him is. The model is stunning, and my wife plays TK, and I play VC so this has put a stupid grin on my face
So if there'll be ever problems in the marriage, there's one thing that would overcome all troubles and misunderstandings. The bond you will always share. The guardian of the relationship and bringer of love and togetherness. Nagash.
scarletsquig wrote: Seems to be getting to the point where the large minis are more mantelpiece ornament than practical gaming piece.
Looking at that photo, I just thought of how much could have been done with the resources used here. The Space Marine tactical squad has three sprues for ten instances of each component. This has two quadruple-sized sprues - almost three times as much cutting - for a special character, something that will only sell zero to one copy to any average customer.
scarletsquig wrote: Seems to be getting to the point where the large minis are more mantelpiece ornament than practical gaming piece.
This. I got really excited about the new Nagash model... and then I saw it''s fantasy's answer to the Wraithnight/Riptide. I mean, a big kit with a big price tag is understandable, but I was expecting Nagash on a mount like a chariot or a shrine or something.
I'm not up on Nagash's fluff (having a second bash at the Time of Legends books as we speak), but is he... supposed to be that... big?
The old army book for Undead described him as 15 feet tall. So, maybe?
True enough. Sometimes they sit(I can readily get my hands on Dark Elf, Lizardman, or VC cards for example) but for quite some time they seem to sell out quick.
bubber wrote: Ruddy hell - when I saw the £65 price tag I thought GW was starting to go mad. But he's HUGE. Lovely model but the 'centre piece' kits are just getting way too big IMO. You need so much motivation just to put these together let alone give them a decent paint job. Then there's the fun of transporting them.
transporting him for me is easy. Put a giant magnet base under his actual base, put that in a specially fixed up plastic tote (I usually cut steel to shape. attach steel to bottom of tote, then line sides and top with foam) and boom transport made easy if space consuming for under 10 bucks.
scarletsquig wrote: Seems to be getting to the point where the large minis are more mantelpiece ornament than practical gaming piece.
Looking at that photo, I just thought of how much could have been done with the resources used here. The Space Marine tactical squad has three sprues for ten instances of each component. This has two quadruple-sized sprues - almost three times as much cutting - for a special character, something that will only sell zero to one copy to any average customer.
Apologies for the double post, but there is quite a bit of conversion potential for nagash into something like a necro/hierotitan in the TK list. or a huge statue for a nagashizzar terrain piece, etc.
the scale of the Nagash model has kind of thrown me for the loop now that ive seen it. ive never seen a bigger target.. but i do like it.
But color me unsure of what will happen to this undead legions stuff in the long term. do we know much about the lore of undeath as of yet? what kind of niche will the new lore and the combined army lists take (Meaning, will they become "like" brand new fixtures to the game in some form of supplimental fashion and usable in competition, or be relegated to campaigns and such)? im just itching to know these things.
I am very tempted to get Nagash and his rules, but I can't stop thinking I should keep the £115 and hold out for the new Bretonnians. I should be able to get a lot more miniatures for my money.
like it or not, this is definitely a very impressive piece of sculpting and engineering...
the sprue breakdown really shows how much goes into designing such a complex kit...
from the very beginning, GW have made very servicable plastic kits, but nothing that blew my mind until the Land Raider kit arrived with the assault ramp that opened (playing with that kit with Jes Goodwin, before it was released, was one of the funniest moments ever, a bunch of grown men giggling like kids in the back of the Amsterdam store)...
then came the High Elf Dragon, which i thought was a big leap forward, and then the Coven Throne took it even further...
i know the aesthetic is not for everyone, but the Coven Throne really did come out of left field, with it's complexity and gravity defying design...
then came the Tesseract Vault, which, open, is a damn nice piece of engineering, with all the cables draping across and holding up the side panels...
now, GW has raised the bar again with this one...
i was slightly let down to see some of the small flaws in the Space Hulk minis, and in the DV Dark Angels, but i think the push-fit aspect still imposes some limitations...
looking at the new sprues for Nagash, you can really see the engineering in action to allow each piece of the sculpt to be cast with a huge amount of detail and complexity...
it also looks like they have integrated enough ghosts into the design to make him a pretty sturdy piece, for a giant floating guy...
it certainly looks sturdier than the open Tesseract Vault!!!
looking back on my first box of Fantasy plastics i bought in '89-ish:
I think it's a great model - one of the best GW have ever done...and then I read about the bit where anybody can use this new magic lore and summon skeletons...and my heart sunk.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I think it's a great model - one of the best GW have ever done...and then I read about the bit where anybody can use this new magic lore and summon skeletons...and my heart sunk.
When the email came in, my reaction was... "Wow! This is the Nagash model I have longed for... " and then I dug around on the website and realised the supporting material was just some dumb add on that everyone will get bored of in a month.
Shows GW can still capture my interest with a model and kill my enthusiasm again in the space of 10 minutes.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I think it's a great model - one of the best GW have ever done...and then I read about the bit where anybody can use this new magic lore and summon skeletons...and my heart sunk.
When the email came in, my reaction was... "Wow! This is the Nagash model I have longed for... " and then I dug around on the website and realised the supporting material was just some dumb add on that everyone will get bored of in a month.
Shows GW can still capture my interest with a model and kill my enthusiasm again in the space of 10 minutes.
I've made no secret of the fact I've ditched GW for FOW and historicals, but this was one miniature that could have seriously tempted me from GW 'retirement,' but like you say, it just comes across as a dumb add on.
I've got no real interest in buying the model for its own sake, just not into undead, but looking at the sprues, the cloak/coat would make for some pretty cool chaos/undead dragon wings. The spirits around him look more than dryad enough for my tastes, so with the right paintjob and some considered cutting and greenstuffing could look pretty nice as forest spirits coming out of trees... It's more than a little insane how big it is, but I think I'm liking that. I was saying yesterday to my local GW store manager (first time I'd been in the store for over a year btw) that there should be adult or master level kits (and that they'd sell like hotcakes), well, GW just need to whip a logo for that and stick on this kit and they've got the first piece. It's HUGE, it's going to take considerable time and effort to assemble and paint this beastie! Good look to all those who are going to give it a go!
finnan wrote: I was saying yesterday to my local GW store manager (first time I'd been in the store for over a year btw) that there should be adult or master level kits (and that they'd sell like hotcakes), well,
I thought forge world had that role. They just need to put FW stuff in the GW store.
yeah, I thought about that yesterday too, and FW do do some bigger kits, but is there all that much difference between all the Space Marine stuff they're churning out and the 'standard' marines, beyond the difference in material? I guess the FW marines are more fiddly if there are more components...
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I think it's a great model - one of the best GW have ever done...and then I read about the bit where anybody can use this new magic lore and summon skeletons...and my heart sunk.
I mean it's necromancy, It would have been entirely feasible and probably well received if GW did this ages ago, this is a lore that should have happened, the conversion opportunities are endless and would allow for the Vampires and TKs lore to be more flexible
I remember reading a piece of lore from a older VC Book ( I believe, could have been elsewhere) About a mortal seeking secrets related to the dark arts and he stumbles upon a Liche or Ancient Vampire, They have a wizard off, and the Undead being ponders why this mortal is so powerful for his age and has an epiphany (as he's murdering said mortal), That the reason the mortal gained so much so quickly, was that he knew he was doomed to die, there was a sense of urgency the undead being had no concept of anylonger
finnan wrote: yeah, I thought about that yesterday too, and FW do do some bigger kits, but is there all that much difference between all the Space Marine stuff they're churning out and the 'standard' marines, beyond the difference in material? I guess the FW marines are more fiddly if there are more components...
Most of the kits GW put out that are difficult to assemble are due to silly things rather than any actual genuine high level craftsmanship from GW themselves. Things like heavy weighted metal components that have tiny joints, resin models with bits too thin so they just snap if you look at them the wrong way, models that are badly warped so they don't fit together properly. Nothing GW actually want to advertise.
Compare that to model cars/planes/tanks where manufacturers often put skill level recommendations on them. In that case it's because the kits are genuinely finer detailed kits that are harder to assemble. GW simply don't do that. I remember buying some ship models as a kid that were over my head, there was so much fiddly pieces you were likely to break in the process of removing them from the sprue, cleaning and trimming them and then actually gluing them to the model.
FW stuff is more "master level" because the resin has more work involved in prep for painting, are often warped and are often miscast. Again, not really something you want to advertise
The FW stuff is probably a higher skill level simply because it's more detailed and less cartoonish, so it takes a bit more skill to do the models justice in the painting stage.
So is the old Nagash model still legal? With the size difference, if the old model is still legal that would be a real boon for anyone looking to play "competitively".
To sort this out and to stop that being the case GW is going to have to FAQ the old model out of existence.
ceorron wrote: So is the old Nagash model still legal? With the size difference, if the old model is still legal that would be a real boon for anyone looking to play "competitively".
To sort this out and to stop that being the case GW is going to have to FAQ the old model out of existence.
GW doesn't have to do anything. I'd be shocked if they even mention the old mini.
Well this model is specifically called "Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead",
so since the original was only called "Nagash", TOs etc are perfectly justified not allowing it to be use instead of the new one as it's technically a different figure
ceorron wrote: So is the old Nagash model still legal? With the size difference, if the old model is still legal that would be a real boon for anyone looking to play "competitively".
To sort this out and to stop that being the case GW is going to have to FAQ the old model out of existence.
TO's have already had to deal with this. Some will allow it, some will ban it. Similar thing happened with the release of the latest WoC. People started showing up with the old 1980's chimeras on chariot bases.
That is a 25 x 50mm cavalry base the thing is on. Compare that to the current Chimera model.
GW didn't make any comment on that case, it likely won't make any comment on this one.
TO's have already had to deal with this. Some will allow it, some will ban it. Similar thing happened with the release of the latest WoC. People started showing up with the old 1980's chimeras on chariot bases.
....people seriously showed up with the incredibly outdated model and wanted to field it? Come on.
TO's have already had to deal with this. Some will allow it, some will ban it. Similar thing happened with the release of the latest WoC. People started showing up with the old 1980's chimeras on chariot bases.
....people seriously showed up with the incredibly outdated model and wanted to field it? Come on.
It doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I have seen similar with tyranids, people fielding the screaming killer and old 'nid warriors.
So nothing too unusual about people using old models. I've seen the older slannesh models too.
If it wasn't for that $150au price tag, I'd buy him. The whole Vampire Counts range really works for me, and he channels just the kind of ridiculous I like from GW. He's over the top, but he's not a-Werewolf-in-powered-armour-riding-a-techno-viking-boat-pulled-by-wolves over the top.
But I can think of so much more I'd rather spend $150au on.
ceorron wrote: So is the old Nagash model still legal? With the size difference, if the old model is still legal that would be a real boon for anyone looking to play "competitively".
To sort this out and to stop that being the case GW is going to have to FAQ the old model out of existence.
GW doesn't have to do anything. I'd be shocked if they even mention the old mini.
Be shocked. They mention the old model in the white dwarf and how elements of the new model pay homage to the old.
In 40k the base size is not the deal killer it is in WFB. That's old model would only allow for three 25 mm bases to touch it. The new one being way larger. I am not sure of the actual base size I'd guess 110 mm allows for a lot more minis to attack it.
Don't get me wrong in 40k its important but not like in WFB.
I hate house rules but any jerk who showed up with Sir Tophem Hatt Nagash would deserve a beating.
What gives them away as plastic are the claws. The metals had claws like this.
Spoiler:
The plastics, which were originally from Advanced Space Crusade with Swords and Claws, then released as a box of 3 with Deathspitters included (I don't know if they had Deathspitters in Space Crusade) looked like this.
Spoiler:
The metal Warriors from 2nd edition had a very different aesthetic going on. I'm pretty confident those originally linked Warriors are the plastics. The plastics were also older, and, IMO, much inferior to the metals.
I have both the 2nd edition metal and the 1st edition plastics (Advances Space Crusade). Of course they look VERY different. But these are the 1st edition metal miniatures (the miniature). It wasn't available that long and look like the plastics. But you can see the differences: claws are longer, swords and legs are shorter, necks are more foreward and overall they look inferior. There was also no Deathspitter option.
Edit: Loki, just compare the plastic models you posted to those in the picture from Phydox.
What's the verdict on Neferata's rules? It sounds like we don't know what her Vampiric Powers are - fairly certain she will have Beguile and Quickblood though - but her stats are really good, she sounds like a bit of a glass cannon though with only a 6+ armour save albeit eight wounds. Do we know what her special rules do or if she has any kind of ward save? I'm hoping she will be good as I really like my Lahmian Vampire Counts army.
trexmeyer wrote: So what are the Nagash rules other than him being able to summon 300 points of Infantry per turn?
From reading the cut off White Dwarf scan, he also has some pretty beefy stats, good armour, and some quite decent ability in close combat. He's not going to be melting multiple ranks off a regiment in a single turn like a blender vampire lord, but he's no pushover either.
His magical abilities are also far and away more interesting than his ability to summon lots of models - he is a level 5 wizard, the second model only after Arkhan the Black, IIRC. He generates his spells from the Lore of Vampires, Lore of Nehekara, Lore of Death, Lore of Light and the Lore of Undeath from the Undead Legions book. He has the ability to reroll miscasts (but has to accept the second result) and reduces crumble by 2 for units within 12". His mass summoning comes from a rule that, when he successfully uses a Lore of Undeath summon spell, causes him to triple the result.
Black Lantern wrote: I don't really care what the score with him is. The model is stunning, and my wife plays TK, and I play VC so this has put a stupid grin on my face
So if there'll be ever problems in the marriage, there's one thing that would overcome all troubles and misunderstandings. The bond you will always share. The guardian of the relationship and bringer of love and togetherness. Nagash.
I haven't heard a thing about Archaon being in the book, and the fact their is going to be multiple end time books, lead me to believe he will be in another one of the series' s books, more than likely a chaos united one
I haven't heard a thing about Archaon being in the book, and the fact their is going to be multiple end time books, lead me to believe he will be in another one of the series' s books, more than likely a chaos united one
More books!? That could potentially lead to a lot more massive figures! I'd love to see Archaon on some epically sized chaos monstrosity. Karl Franz with a new pet, or some HUGE contraption. Skaven, orcs, dwarves all getting cool new centerpiece models! That would be awesome!
I kind of like that better than just adding a few items to every army each 5+ years (10+ for some). I also love story lines where two massive evil powers are at war. Good vs evil just gets boring sometimes.
I haven't heard a thing about Archaon being in the book, and the fact their is going to be multiple end time books, lead me to believe he will be in another one of the series' s books, more than likely a chaos united one
More books!? That could potentially lead to a lot more massive figures! I'd love to see Archaon on some epically sized chaos monstrosity. Karl Franz with a new pet, or some HUGE contraption. Skaven, orcs, dwarves all getting cool new centerpiece models! That would be awesome!
I kind of like that better than just adding a few items to every army each 5+ years (10+ for some). I also love story lines where two massive evil powers are at war. Good vs evil just gets boring sometimes.
I can't really say I know a lot of history about Nagash but he looks too big IMHO and for £65 he's a bit steep I think I'll stick to my Nids and Skaven.
Restless Zeal wrote: I can't really say I know a lot of history about Nagash but he looks too big IMHO and for £65 he's a bit steep I think I'll stick to my Nids and Skaven.
Plays Fantasy. Doesn't know Nagash. Do people ever care about lore?
^^ that being said (in response to Alex's statement) does seem to be an actual advancement of the timeline, rather than a SoC dream sequence.
Also, for you Lizzie players out there, what is the significance of Lord Mazdamundi waking up? Is that unusual? 'Cause it mentions that happening in white dwarf.
godswildcard wrote: ^^ that being said (in response to Alex's statement) does seem to be an actual advancement of the timeline, rather than a SoC dream sequence.
Also, for you Lizzie players out there, what is the significance of Lord Mazdamundi waking up? Is that unusual? 'Cause it mentions that happening in white dwarf.
That's...
Well, imagine Merlin. Now imagine him as a frog that can blow up continents.
godswildcard wrote: ^^ that being said (in response to Alex's statement) does seem to be an actual advancement of the timeline, rather than a SoC dream sequence.
Also, for you Lizzie players out there, what is the significance of Lord Mazdamundi waking up? Is that unusual? 'Cause it mentions that happening in white dwarf.
Yes. He's the oldest and most powerful second generation Slann. That makes him the oldest living Slann. He's roughly Nagash-tier in terms of power.
Edit: Found his rules posted on1d4chan.
He automatically knows Ryze - The Grave Call and generates 8 other spells from the schools he knows. s8 6 attacks with d3 multiple wounds He can also use up to 4 stored power dice as additional attacks with HKB rule.
I haven't heard a thing about Archaon being in the book, and the fact their is going to be multiple end time books, lead me to believe he will be in another one of the series' s books, more than likely a chaos united one
More books!? That could potentially lead to a lot more massive figures! I'd love to see Archaon on some epically sized chaos monstrosity. Karl Franz with a new pet, or some HUGE contraption. Skaven, orcs, dwarves all getting cool new centerpiece models! That would be awesome!
I kind of like that better than just adding a few items to every army each 5+ years (10+ for some). I also love story lines where two massive evil powers are at war. Good vs evil just gets boring sometimes.
I so hope there is going to be a with Deamons, WoC and Beastmen as an unified Chaos army. Would be awesome! And then Archaeon and Nagash can have a battle over who gets to rule the world
Mazdamundi is also the Slaan who rides to battle on the back of a stegadon (which has always been a totally awesome concept), so he could make a pretty awesome plastic kit.
Its apparently going to mess up the Warhammer world big time
like, continents shifting, realms getting destroyed, new alliances
Rumor is the old army books system will go - we may see combined Chaos and Undead again for example
Chad Warden wrote: Its apparently going to mess up the Warhammer world big time
like, continents shifting, realms getting destroyed, new alliances
Rumor is the old army books system will go - we may see combined Chaos and Undead again for example
I could see that train of thought... WHFB sales are down? Let's shake everything up and make it a completely new game; everyone will have to buy everything all over again!
Chad Warden wrote: Its apparently going to mess up the Warhammer world big time like, continents shifting, realms getting destroyed, new alliances Rumor is the old army books system will go - we may see combined Chaos and Undead again for example
I could see that train of thought... WHFB sales are down? Let's shake everything up and make it a completely new game; everyone will have to buy everything all over again!
It's not like you won't have to buy everything again with their current staggered release system anyway. Completely rebooting the system is something I've never really been opposed to. I'd much rather have the system rebooted than have to spend another $50 on a new army book + $75 on a new rulebook which amounts to nothing more than a few tweaks to the ones I had previously.
Given GW's experiments with allies, I have this dreadful feeling we'll see Forces of Order and Forces of Chaos mashups if they ever decide to do away with the current system.
Empire State Troops led by a Slann, supported by some Treemen vs Skavenslaves with a Chaos Lord and some DE Witches.
There was a rumor some months ago about Wood Elves, Bretonnia and Tomb Kings going away. The fluff bits seem to lean towards that.
Interesting to see what exactly they do, it seems like they're going to do a near complete devastation of the Old World, but the question is going to be what comes after it?
Ghaz wrote: Would they do away with an army that just got an updated army book and new models this year?
Yes.
Following the CHS case, GW management has been in a tailspin trying to figure out how to make everything into an unassailable wall. The more generic the army - the more likely it is to get axed. Haven't bothered to press for details, but that is where they have been saying they are going.
As a result, there are more silly changes coming to 40K and although we hadn't talked about it (WFB hasn't had a pulse anywhere I have been for 10 years now) I would not be surprised if they tried to move WFB away from the generic fantasy that it is into something that is completely different from what it is now (though, to be honest - there really isn't much new ground for fantasy settings...).
That Black Library preview has a snippet of Gilles Le Breton taking off the mantle of the Green Knight and reclaiming his throne! There are so many little tidbits of what's to come in the first few pages, it's crazy.
Restless Zeal wrote: I can't really say I know a lot of history about Nagash but he looks too big IMHO and for £65 he's a bit steep I think I'll stick to my Nids and Skaven.
Plays Fantasy. Doesn't know Nagash. Do people ever care about lore?
Enough of that garbage.
There's exactly NOWHERE that states you have to read a -ton of lore to play a game.
You just play the game and have a great time.
If you have a question, it shouldn't be too much to ask it without someone looking down their nose at you for doing so.
That Black Library preview has a snippet of Gilles Le Breton taking off the mantle of the Green Knight and reclaiming his throne! There are so many little tidbits of what's to come in the first few pages, it's crazy.
That's insane. Big bad frog man. the uniter of Bretonnia, and of course Nagash himself!
Who else will be making a come back? Anyone got money on Sigmar? How about Aenerion? Is Alcidizzar confirmed dead, or is he MiA? Because I would love a way to make TK NOT auto-Nagash followers.
Wasn't part of the TK fluff that they only had independence because Nagash was no longer around? I'd imagine with his return they'd all fall in line, willingly or otherwise.
Alcadizzar is pretty dead, at least that is what I'm getting the impression of from "The Blood of Nagash" trilogy("Neferata", "Master of the Dead", and the forthcoming "Blood Dragon").
Ghaz wrote: Would they do away with an army that just got an updated army book and new models this year?
Yes.
Following the CHS case, GW management has been in a tailspin trying to figure out how to make everything into an unassailable wall. The more generic the army - the more likely it is to get axed. Haven't bothered to press for details, but that is where they have been saying they are going.
As a result, there are more silly changes coming to 40K and although we hadn't talked about it (WFB hasn't had a pulse anywhere I have been for 10 years now) I would not be surprised if they tried to move WFB away from the generic fantasy that it is into something that is completely different from what it is now (though, to be honest - there really isn't much new ground for fantasy settings...).
So basically Tomb Kings are perfectly safe, and it's Vampire Counts that are in danger of the axe?
Medium of Death wrote: Wasn't part of the TK fluff that they only had independence because Nagash was no longer around? I'd imagine with his return they'd all fall in line, willingly or otherwise.
Nagash staged a comeback at least one, if not twice since TK's awakening. That didn't seem to matter much to them as far as I know.
That Black Library preview has a snippet of Gilles Le Breton taking off the mantle of the Green Knight and reclaiming his throne! There are so many little tidbits of what's to come in the first few pages, it's crazy.
That's insane. Big bad frog man. the uniter of Bretonnia, and of course Nagash himself!
Who else will be making a come back? Anyone got money on Sigmar? How about Aenerion? Is Alcidizzar confirmed dead, or is he MiA? Because I would love a way to make TK NOT auto-Nagash followers.
Hmmm... The dwarven ancestor Grimnir, who went through the chaos gates? The king and queen of Athel Loren? The person who built the bell tower in skavenblight ( or the complete council of 13)? Daemon prince Azazel? There's no shortage of epic characters to draw on.
I have to agree with 'Da Boss', Mazamundi would make a cool and really epic plastic kit. He's been in the last two army books, and has never gotten an official model. Another character I could see them doing (again) would be Egrimm Von Horstmann on his chaos two headed dragon. He'd make a cool dual kit with gaalrauch, who's looking a bit dated (and small) compared to other dragons. Hopefully it would be a triple kit with a generic chaos lord/sorcerer too. I've always liked the FW chaos dragon, but he doesn't have a good place to mount someone (plus, they don't sell him anymore).
I think Nagash and his cohorts look great, and I can't wait to see what people do with them. Do we know if all the models like manfred and arkhan are all the same kit? They're all riding somewhat similar creatures. I would love it if Warhammer forge chipped in with some goodies for this, but they can't seem to get unfocused from the Horus heresy.
Ghaz wrote: Would they do away with an army that just got an updated army book and new models this year?
Yes.
Following the CHS case, GW management has been in a tailspin trying to figure out how to make everything into an unassailable wall. The more generic the army - the more likely it is to get axed. Haven't bothered to press for details, but that is where they have been saying they are going.
As a result, there are more silly changes coming to 40K and although we hadn't talked about it (WFB hasn't had a pulse anywhere I have been for 10 years now) I would not be surprised if they tried to move WFB away from the generic fantasy that it is into something that is completely different from what it is now (though, to be honest - there really isn't much new ground for fantasy settings...).
So basically Tomb Kings are perfectly safe, and it's Vampire Counts that are in danger of the axe?
I wouldn't say that. Neither of them are particularly original.
The tomb king concept goes back 3000+ years to the kamarupa and the various burial spells found on Egyptian tombs.
Honestly - I couldn't even make an educated guess as to what it is that GW management would think would be unique enough to be unassailable. Based off from what we have seen so far though (IG for example) - they seem to have completely missed the boat and they may end up just renaming everything without actually managing to grasp that fair use of their marks makes what ever name is chosen irrelevant.
Kanluwen wrote: Alcadizzar is pretty dead, at least that is what I'm getting the impression of from "The Blood of Nagash" trilogy("Neferata", "Master of the Dead", and the forthcoming "Blood Dragon").
Indeed - its more likely to be Settra vs Nagash, but then I am also hoping the fluff in those novels is not trampled on..................
Not gonna lie. This is the first time I've been excited about fantasy in like 4 years. I'm definitely buying the book/fluff tome. I'll just have to see how I feel about anything else after that
Following a few other peoples lead, but if you haven't read the extract on Black Library, you need to. It's only about 65 pages, but it's AMAZING!! If you want to read it yourself, don't click below!
Spoiler:
In the first chapter, a 'scryer' (Mannfred) is looking around the world at the things going on. It doesn't look good. Louen Leoncouer is dead, killed by his illegitimate son (with the help of Arkhan). The son is in turned killed by Gilles de Breton, who was the Green Knight. Archon has a MASSIVE demon legion at the North Pole, and 4 exalted (their word, not mine!) demons kneel before him in homage. It's specifically said that this is the kind of Demon army that assailed the world when it was young. Several cities in Lustria are burning. As is Middenhiem. Tilea is overrun by Skaven (it's gone) who seem to have finally united. Ulthuan is fighting demons while Naggaroth is fighting WoC. The Empire is in bad straights, with Volkmar the Grim's army (who went to purge Sylvania) being completely destroyed and the Grand Theogenist himself has been captured. Valten is back, and the twin tailed comet is in the sky again. The Tomb Kings are marching on Araby. Gotrek (he's the slayer, right?) is specifically called a 'doomseeker' as he carves up a path through some WoC in Kislev, and Felix may be dead (the human companion? Do I have that right?). Kislev is pretty much gone, but the Ice Queen is still alive and is fighting WoC in hit-and-run battles throughout her empire. Beastmen have attacked Athel Loren, and the Oak of Ages is dead.
I think that hits the highlights.
So from that, I can sincerely hope we will see (warning! Wishlisting to follow!):
-A Bretonnia reboot with Gilles as the king
-New plastic Greater Demon models (greater demons/ exalted demons dual kit--> this one is a no brainer and GW would be stupid NOT to)
-Doomseekers making a comeback (my own personal geek dream. I'd start dwarfs for affordable slayer and doomseeker models)
-an Ice Queen/ kislev comback
I need a game or movie showcasing The End Times. Its getting too badass, cant wait to read more.
On a slight fluff note, can Nagash control a vampire the way a necromancer would a skeleton? Or are the majority of vampires simply joining Nagash because its Nagash?
godswildcard wrote: Following a few other peoples lead, but if you haven't read the extract on Black Library, you need to. It's only about 65 pages, but it's AMAZING!! If you want to read it yourself, don't click below!
Spoiler:
In the first chapter, a 'scryer' (Mannfred) is looking around the world at the things going on. It doesn't look good. Louen Leoncouer is dead, killed by his illegitimate son (with the help of Arkhan). The son is in turned killed by Gilles de Breton, who was the Green Knight. Archon has a MASSIVE demon legion at the North Pole, and 4 exalted (their word, not mine!) demons kneel before him in homage. It's specifically said that this is the kind of Demon army that assailed the world when it was young. Several cities in Lustria are burning. As is Middenhiem. Tilea is overrun by Skaven (it's gone) who seem to have finally united. Ulthuan is fighting demons while Naggaroth is fighting WoC. The Empire is in bad straights, with Volkmar the Grim's army (who went to purge Sylvania) being completely destroyed and the Grand Theogenist himself has been captured. Valten is back, and the twin tailed comet is in the sky again. The Tomb Kings are marching on Araby. Gotrek (he's the slayer, right?) is specifically called a 'doomseeker' as he carves up a path through some WoC in Kislev, and Felix may be dead (the human companion? Do I have that right?). Kislev is pretty much gone, but the Ice Queen is still alive and is fighting WoC in hit-and-run battles throughout her empire. Beastmen have attacked Athel Loren, and the Oak of Ages is dead.
I think that hits the highlights.
So from that, I can sincerely hope we will see (warning! Wishlisting to follow!):
-A Bretonnia reboot with Gilles as the king
-New plastic Greater Demon models (greater demons/ exalted demons dual kit--> this one is a no brainer and GW would be stupid NOT to)
-Doomseekers making a comeback (my own personal geek dream. I'd start dwarfs for affordable slayer and doomseeker models)
-an Ice Queen/ kislev comback
I'm starting to get giggly with excitement!!!
I think forge worlds massive greater daemons that are named charachters in 40k apocalypse is called Exalted Daemons in the storm of magic book.
godswildcard wrote: Following a few other peoples lead, but if you haven't read the extract on Black Library, you need to. It's only about 65 pages, but it's AMAZING!! If you want to read it yourself, don't click below!
Spoiler:
In the first chapter, a 'scryer' (Mannfred) is looking around the world at the things going on. It doesn't look good. Louen Leoncouer is dead, killed by his illegitimate son (with the help of Arkhan). The son is in turned killed by Gilles de Breton, who was the Green Knight. Archon has a MASSIVE demon legion at the North Pole, and 4 exalted (their word, not mine!) demons kneel before him in homage. It's specifically said that this is the kind of Demon army that assailed the world when it was young. Several cities in Lustria are burning. As is Middenhiem. Tilea is overrun by Skaven (it's gone) who seem to have finally united. Ulthuan is fighting demons while Naggaroth is fighting WoC. The Empire is in bad straights, with Volkmar the Grim's army (who went to purge Sylvania) being completely destroyed and the Grand Theogenist himself has been captured. Valten is back, and the twin tailed comet is in the sky again. The Tomb Kings are marching on Araby. Gotrek (he's the slayer, right?) is specifically called a 'doomseeker' as he carves up a path through some WoC in Kislev, and Felix may be dead (the human companion? Do I have that right?). Kislev is pretty much gone, but the Ice Queen is still alive and is fighting WoC in hit-and-run battles throughout her empire. Beastmen have attacked Athel Loren, and the Oak of Ages is dead.
I think that hits the highlights.
So from that, I can sincerely hope we will see (warning! Wishlisting to follow!):
-A Bretonnia reboot with Gilles as the king
-New plastic Greater Demon models (greater demons/ exalted demons dual kit--> this one is a no brainer and GW would be stupid NOT to)
-Doomseekers making a comeback (my own personal geek dream. I'd start dwarfs for affordable slayer and doomseeker models)
-an Ice Queen/ kislev comback
I'm starting to get giggly with excitement!!!
I do believe Kislev is completely removed from the warhammer world by this expansion. They are completely and utterly destroyed. Might come back on zombie bears though...............
Wow, this is very exciting. I don't have much faith in GW these days, but maybe the lawsuit/financial report shook them enough to actually try something new and move the fluff forward. I have always liked that about Warmahordes and would really like to see it in Fantasy, even if it was only a one-time thing. Changing Fantasy to the rumored skirmish style would be welcome... I could actually afford to play again!
corgan wrote: I am waiting for years to see a neat model of Malekith. Maybe the time has come...
There is a model of Malekith and has been for years. Sure, he could use some updating (he still has some metal bits) but he looks okay to me if a little plain.
unmercifulconker wrote: I need a game or movie showcasing The End Times. Its getting too badass, cant wait to read more.
On a slight fluff note, can Nagash control a vampire the way a necromancer would a skeleton? Or are the majority of vampires simply joining Nagash because its Nagash?
Vampires have served Nagash in the past - the Nagash trilogy and Blood of Nagash books go into this at some length - its usually via coercion as he wants to completely eliminate their food supply and also given the ego's of pretty much all Vamps they don't like serving!
The only Vamps that really serve him willingly are Necrarchs and that because they want the same thing. Neferata has avoided direct control for much of her existence and has fought against his forces directly - usually losing. She gave Nagash a Vampire rather than serve herself when he marched on Sigmar
IIRC he tends to go for the "serve me or perish, you will serve me in death or life (un-life)" I don't think he has ever shown the power to command them directly expect through specific artefacts like his crown and a certain ring......
Well said.To be honest I don't like this model so much. It's not that "dark". I was thinking of a revised version. Something better sculpted. It's a good chance.
I don't play fantasy, but I've been thinking about if for awhile, and I've been intersted in starting a Tomb Kings army. I think I just got the excuse I needed to push me over the edge into finally starting one.
Nagash
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood
Krell, Mortarch of Despair
Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow
Vampire Lord
High Necromancer
Ghoul King Strigoi
High Queen Khalida
Tomb King
High Liche Priest
Heroes
Necromancer
Vampire
Wight King
Cairn Wraith
Tomb Banshee
Prince Apophas
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necrotect
unmercifulconker wrote: I need a game or movie showcasing The End Times. Its getting too badass, cant wait to read more.
On a slight fluff note, can Nagash control a vampire the way a necromancer would a skeleton? Or are the majority of vampires simply joining Nagash because its Nagash?
Vampires have served Nagash in the past - the Nagash trilogy and Blood of Nagash books go into this at some length - its usually via coercion as he wants to completely eliminate their food supply and also given the ego's of pretty much all Vamps they don't like serving!
The only Vamps that really serve him willingly are Necrarchs and that because they want the same thing. Neferata has avoided direct control for much of her existence and has fought against his forces directly - usually losing. She gave Nagash a Vampire rather than serve herself when he marched on Sigmar
IIRC he tends to go for the "serve me or perish, you will serve me in death or life (un-life)" I don't think he has ever shown the power to command them directly expect through specific artefacts like his crown and a certain ring......
Ah sweet thanks very much, might just have to check those books out.
So were moving the story forward but turning the game back to herohammer.
This sounds to me like some account looked at the figures for warhammer and decided that the time period of 6th 7th was when they took the most and told the design team make it so.
The background changes are interesting, but I can't see myself paying for the book at those prices.
Nagash is too big and unwieldy, he's not a practical gaming piece. Same issue as the Warmachine/Hordes colossals - too difficult to store, too goofy to put on display.
I'd rather have a well sculpted and characterful 28mm miniature than a ginormous plastic monstrousity like that.
Very technically impressive though, it has to be said.
unmercifulconker wrote: I need a game or movie showcasing The End Times. Its getting too badass, cant wait to read more.
On a slight fluff note, can Nagash control a vampire the way a necromancer would a skeleton? Or are the majority of vampires simply joining Nagash because its Nagash?
Vampires have served Nagash in the past - the Nagash trilogy and Blood of Nagash books go into this at some length - its usually via coercion as he wants to completely eliminate their food supply and also given the ego's of pretty much all Vamps they don't like serving!
The only Vamps that really serve him willingly are Necrarchs and that because they want the same thing. Neferata has avoided direct control for much of her existence and has fought against his forces directly - usually losing. She gave Nagash a Vampire rather than serve herself when he marched on Sigmar
IIRC he tends to go for the "serve me or perish, you will serve me in death or life (un-life)" I don't think he has ever shown the power to command them directly expect through specific artefacts like his crown and a certain ring......
Ah sweet thanks very much, might just have to check those books out.
They are excellent reads
Pleased by this bit of the free extract on BL
he scryer chuckled mirthlessly as the next image wavered into being. Another mountain hold, but not one that belonged to the dwarfs. Not any more, at least. In the deep halls and opulently decorated black chambers of the Silver Pinnacle, the self-proclaimed queen of the world, Neferata, mother and mistress of the Lahmian bloodline, led her warriors, both dead and undead, in defence of her citadel. A horde of daemons, backed by hell-forged artillery, attacked from above and below, laying siege to the main gates of Neferata’s chosen eyrie, as well as surging up from its lower depths. But these daemons vanished as abruptly as those who had attacked Copper Mountain. The scryer frowned in annoyance. It would have been far better for his own designs for the mistress of the Silver Pinnacle to have fallen to the daemon-storm.
Nice to see a certain Elf Princess alive if not well and that Josh Reynolds is writing the book
I don't know if it has been mentioned earlier but do we have any idea how big this model is from base to the top of his hat (or wand)? In the picture it seems to me something like 6 times the height of the skeleton, therefore I would say around 17cm/6,7 inches. But maybe I am completely wrong in these calculations.
Hello, this is great timing! I hadn't done WHFB in over a decade and just several weeks ago started my vampire counts army! Already have most of it painted....now onto the 160 skeletons...
Anyways, I hadn't seen anyone mention this point yet - the WD article gave hint to new rules (not the Nagash book, but a new rule set evolving out of this whole "end of times." thingy), and then the local manager at GW (that I have bought stuff from) said the Nagash book is the book taking everyone into 9th edition... (There's rules and other things apparently in it that have no mention in 8th edition...).
unmercifulconker wrote: I need a game or movie showcasing The End Times. Its getting too badass, cant wait to read more.
On a slight fluff note, can Nagash control a vampire the way a necromancer would a skeleton? Or are the majority of vampires simply joining Nagash because its Nagash?
Vampires have served Nagash in the past - the Nagash trilogy and Blood of Nagash books go into this at some length - its usually via coercion as he wants to completely eliminate their food supply and also given the ego's of pretty much all Vamps they don't like serving!
The only Vamps that really serve him willingly are Necrarchs and that because they want the same thing. Neferata has avoided direct control for much of her existence and has fought against his forces directly - usually losing. She gave Nagash a Vampire rather than serve herself when he marched on Sigmar
IIRC he tends to go for the "serve me or perish, you will serve me in death or life (un-life)" I don't think he has ever shown the power to command them directly expect through specific artefacts like his crown and a certain ring......
Who knows, maybe Neferata just thinks Nagash is a D-bag.
"Say Neferata, we're all going over to Nagash's black pyramid to hang out, you coming?"
"Naa, there's something about that guy that rubs me the wrong way. I'll catch up with y'all tomorrow night."
godswildcard wrote: Following a few other peoples lead, but if you haven't read the extract on Black Library, you need to. It's only about 65 pages, but it's AMAZING!! If you want to read it yourself, don't click below!
Spoiler:
In the first chapter, a 'scryer' (Mannfred) is looking around the world at the things going on. It doesn't look good. Louen Leoncouer is dead, killed by his illegitimate son (with the help of Arkhan). The son is in turned killed by Gilles de Breton, who was the Green Knight. Archon has a MASSIVE demon legion at the North Pole, and 4 exalted (their word, not mine!) demons kneel before him in homage. It's specifically said that this is the kind of Demon army that assailed the world when it was young. Several cities in Lustria are burning. As is Middenhiem. Tilea is overrun by Skaven (it's gone) who seem to have finally united. Ulthuan is fighting demons while Naggaroth is fighting WoC. The Empire is in bad straights, with Volkmar the Grim's army (who went to purge Sylvania) being completely destroyed and the Grand Theogenist himself has been captured. Valten is back, and the twin tailed comet is in the sky again. The Tomb Kings are marching on Araby. Gotrek (he's the slayer, right?) is specifically called a 'doomseeker' as he carves up a path through some WoC in Kislev, and Felix may be dead (the human companion? Do I have that right?). Kislev is pretty much gone, but the Ice Queen is still alive and is fighting WoC in hit-and-run battles throughout her empire. Beastmen have attacked Athel Loren, and the Oak of Ages is dead.
I think that hits the highlights.
So from that, I can sincerely hope we will see (warning! Wishlisting to follow!):
-A Bretonnia reboot with Gilles as the king
-New plastic Greater Demon models (greater demons/ exalted demons dual kit--> this one is a no brainer and GW would be stupid NOT to)
-Doomseekers making a comeback (my own personal geek dream. I'd start dwarfs for affordable slayer and doomseeker models)
-an Ice Queen/ kislev comback
I'm starting to get giggly with excitement!!!
I never understood why people think gaking all over the established background is "awesome". I like Warhammer because it's Warhammer, I like 40K because it's 40K, the background is the only reason I'm not playing other companies' games which are cheaper and have more enjoyable rules, and I have exactly zero interest in some vague parody of the Warhammer world with half the factions gone or amalgamated.
One of the big reasons 40K and Fantasy are appealing is that the clock is set at one minute to midnight; unspeakable horrors are everywhere scratching at the walls, and it's inevitable that something is going to eat/murder/burn everyone and everything in short order, but what actually happens is never spelled out so it's up to the players to create their own stories within the setting. If someone is really desperate to "see what happens" in either setting, they can run their own campaign to find out, or write out their own preferences and start holding their games in a new setting that results from the changes they made - they get what they want, without taking away everyone else's options.
And as for the actual process; the model releases, the different armies, the campaign event - none of those require them to change the existing Fantasy setting. Forgeworld and BL have managed to turn the Heresy into a total monster, if they had even a fraction of the creative talent GW could have easily done the same with the events of Fantasy's Time of Legends series rather than just doing the fictional equivalent of overturning a half-finished chess game in a hissy fit.
I am not sure - the extract is great but the world changing events are seen through a scrying - so may even be possible future rather than current events? Not sure.
Josh Reynolds has written some of my fav WF novels so hoping he keeps it up..............
alanberger wrote: Hello, this is great timing! I hadn't done WHFB in over a decade and just several weeks ago started my vampire counts army! Already have most of it painted....now onto the 160 skeletons...
Anyways, I hadn't seen anyone mention this point yet - the WD article gave hint to new rules (not the Nagash book, but a new rule set evolving out of this whole "end of times." thingy), and then the local manager at GW (that I have bought stuff from) said the Nagash book is the book taking everyone into 9th edition... (There's rules and other things apparently in it that have no mention in 8th edition...).
Has anyone else caught onto that yet?
I hate to tell you this, but this thing looks more like a "Storm of Magic" style release. Most of the time, of which (like SoM), is not going to see play except on rare tournament occasions or between friends gameplay. I wouldn't expect to see a wide acceptance of "everyone can summon undead" within the community for normal play.
corgan wrote: I don't know if it has been mentioned earlier but do we have any idea how big this model is from base to the top of his hat (or wand)? In the picture it seems to me something like 6 times the height of the skeleton, therefore I would say around 17cm/6,7 inches. But maybe I am completely wrong in these calculations.
Here is a rough estimation:
I don't think you've measured it terribly well in that image. The skeleton is roughly 96 pixels tall in that image, Nagash to the top of his hat is 740 pixels, to the top of his staff is 830 pixels.
So roughly 7.7 skeletons tall to his hat, 8.6 skeletons tall to his staff. I'm guessing a skeleton is about 30mm, so Nagash is 23cm/9" to his hat, 26cm/10.2" to his staff.
I never understood why people think gaking all over the established background is "awesome". I like Warhammer because it's Warhammer, I like 40K because it's 40K, the background is the only reason I'm not playing other companies' games which are cheaper and have more enjoyable rules, and I have exactly zero interest in some vague parody of the Warhammer world with half the factions gone or amalgamated.
One of the big reasons 40K and Fantasy are appealing is that the clock is set at one minute to midnight; unspeakable horrors are everywhere scratching at the walls, and it's inevitable that something is going to eat/murder/burn everyone and everything in short order, but what actually happens is never spelled out so it's up to the players to create their own stories within the setting. If someone is really desperate to "see what happens" in either setting, they can run their own campaign to find out, or write out their own preferences and start holding their games in a new setting that results from the changes they made - they get what they want, without taking away everyone else's options.
And as for the actual process; the model releases, the different armies, the campaign event - none of those require them to change the existing Fantasy setting. Forgeworld and BL have managed to turn the Heresy into a total monster, if they had even a fraction of the creative talent GW could have easily done the same with the events of Fantasy's Time of Legends series rather than just doing the fictional equivalent of overturning a half-finished chess game in a hissy fit.
Wow. Now tell us how you really feel!
I think you're giving GW a bit to much credit here. Firstly, the Nagash rulebook is 96 pages long, yet contains more than two army books worth of units, meaning you will need the army books to play the Undead Legion list. This means that they aren't getting rid of the army books. So you don't need to worry about only being able to play with 4 factions or so. Basically what we are looking at here is a more structured 'unbound' type ruleset (which makes more sense than 'I have 3 riptides, a wraithknight and a baneblade and I can use them as one army!!11!')
Yes, they've advanced the timeline. But there is no end-game (because that would END the GAME, you see). That IS for the player to decide. Now the clock may be at :30 or :15 seconds to midnight, but it's still not over. Can your glorious band of heroes buy the world more time? Or will the evil powers (the now MULTIPLE evil powers. Sorry, but having Chaos as the only big baddie in the game gets really, REALLY old) bathe the world in blood and death? Who knows?! But it's up to you to figure it out. The setting is changing, but it's been unchanged since AT least 2001. Want to know why Fantasy is stagnant? Nothing exciting ever happens. Unlike 40K which regularly gets Forgeworld support and MUCH love from momma GW, fantasy has been stuck where it is FOREVER. FW won't be making any real contributions to fantasy for quite a while. We may get the odd BSB or monster, but 30K is way to lucrative to even THINK about doing something that doesn't involve power armor, and we're only 25% of the way through a planned 12 books. Where are those three 'Time of Legends' books, not to mention HALF of the stuff from Monstrous Arcanum? Not happening. GW is actually doing the stuff that FW SHOULD be doing, but won't. There are still contemptor dreadnoughts to wrap in different colors!
The problem with expecting everyone to just make up their own setting is that it's not nearly as satisfying if it's not official in any way. With these events EVERYTHING really does have a chance to happen more so than ever before. People will FINALLY be able to run a unified undead army again. Or a Demons and Warriors and Beastmen army. If anything, it actually seems like they're saying they're pressing the timeline FORWARD, but they're actually turning back the clock and giving us our goodies back! The established background isn't being shat upon, it's being added to. VERY different things. Everything that has already happened has still already happened. But now MORE stuff is happening.
namiel wrote: Does anyone know if this book is limited? Its no longer available so I am curious if I need to be waiting by the door when my local GW opens saturday
namiel wrote: Does anyone know if this book is limited? Its no longer available so I am curious if I need to be waiting by the door when my local GW opens saturday
Anyone????
I hadn't read anything about it being limited. Maybe they just sold through the first runs faster than expected? Pretty sure it wasn't limited.
namiel wrote: Does anyone know if this book is limited? Its no longer available so I am curious if I need to be waiting by the door when my local GW opens saturday
Anyone????
I hadn't read anything about it being limited. Maybe they just sold through the first runs faster than expected? Pretty sure it wasn't limited.
the cards were gone in less then 2 hours. I was hoping to get my hands on 3-4 sets
Just re-read it, and it could easily just be picking up where other events left off. He's being held baby Mannfred with a white wolf, blazing sun, and that elf princess.
Nagash
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood
Krell, Mortarch of Despair
Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow
Vampire Lord
High Necromancer
Ghoul King Strigoi
High Queen Khalida
Tomb King
High Liche Priest
Heroes
Necromancer
Vampire
Wight King
Cairn Wraith
Tomb Banshee
Prince Apophas
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necrotect
It doesnt seeem so much 'again' as 'for the first time, albeit different way' given that they are virtually retconning storm of chaos...
But hey, if they are bringing back rules for my lovely Valten(s) Im happy, especially if this means there is even a slight chance of a redo of Teutogen Guard (hey I can dream!)
On the note of WFB time of legends stuff, Id hate it tbh. I dont want my games of wfb to feel like a historical tabletop game. Plus, as awesome as having a sigmar model would be, i dread the prospect of fighting an Undead Legion style army with Sigmar era Empire. No halberds/gunpowder/artillery/stanks/magic or warrior priests? No thank you...
I never understood why people think gaking all over the established background is "awesome". I like Warhammer because it's Warhammer, I like 40K because it's 40K, the background is the only reason I'm not playing other companies' games which are cheaper and have more enjoyable rules, and I have exactly zero interest in some vague parody of the Warhammer world with half the factions gone or amalgamated.
One of the big reasons 40K and Fantasy are appealing is that the clock is set at one minute to midnight; unspeakable horrors are everywhere scratching at the walls, and it's inevitable that something is going to eat/murder/burn everyone and everything in short order, but what actually happens is never spelled out so it's up to the players to create their own stories within the setting. If someone is really desperate to "see what happens" in either setting, they can run their own campaign to find out, or write out their own preferences and start holding their games in a new setting that results from the changes they made - they get what they want, without taking away everyone else's options.
And as for the actual process; the model releases, the different armies, the campaign event - none of those require them to change the existing Fantasy setting. Forgeworld and BL have managed to turn the Heresy into a total monster, if they had even a fraction of the creative talent GW could have easily done the same with the events of Fantasy's Time of Legends series rather than just doing the fictional equivalent of overturning a half-finished chess game in a hissy fit.
Wow. Now tell us how you really feel!
I think you're giving GW a bit to much credit here. Firstly, the Nagash rulebook is 96 pages long, yet contains more than two army books worth of units, meaning you will need the army books to play the Undead Legion list. This means that they aren't getting rid of the army books. So you don't need to worry about only being able to play with 4 factions or so. Basically what we are looking at here is a more structured 'unbound' type ruleset (which makes more sense than 'I have 3 riptides, a wraithknight and a baneblade and I can use them as one army!!11!')
Yes, they've advanced the timeline. But there is no end-game (because that would END the GAME, you see). That IS for the player to decide. Now the clock may be at :30 or :15 seconds to midnight, but it's still not over. Can your glorious band of heroes buy the world more time? Or will the evil powers (the now MULTIPLE evil powers. Sorry, but having Chaos as the only big baddie in the game gets really, REALLY old) bathe the world in blood and death? Who knows?! But it's up to you to figure it out. The setting is changing, but it's been unchanged since AT least 2001. Want to know why Fantasy is stagnant? Nothing exciting ever happens. Unlike 40K which regularly gets Forgeworld support and MUCH love from momma GW, fantasy has been stuck where it is FOREVER. FW won't be making any real contributions to fantasy for quite a while. We may get the odd BSB or monster, but 30K is way to lucrative to even THINK about doing something that doesn't involve power armor, and we're only 25% of the way through a planned 12 books. Where are those three 'Time of Legends' books, not to mention HALF of the stuff from Monstrous Arcanum? Not happening. GW is actually doing the stuff that FW SHOULD be doing, but won't. There are still contemptor dreadnoughts to wrap in different colors!
The problem with expecting everyone to just make up their own setting is that it's not nearly as satisfying if it's not official in any way. With these events EVERYTHING really does have a chance to happen more so than ever before. People will FINALLY be able to run a unified undead army again. Or a Demons and Warriors and Beastmen army. If anything, it actually seems like they're saying they're pressing the timeline FORWARD, but they're actually turning back the clock and giving us our goodies back! The established background isn't being shat upon, it's being added to. VERY different things. Everything that has already happened has still already happened. But now MORE stuff is happening.
So yeah, I'm excited. It's an exciting time.
And what's a big reason those FW supplements are so well received? They're set in the "past", or the "present" if they deal with relatively isolated events. They don't screw with people's existing armies, their personal characters and stories. You talk about how things are more "satisfying" when they're official, well why is the satisfaction of those who want the timeline to advance(a distinct concept from more content being added, because we've established you can do that easily without touching the timeline or even materially altering "historical" events) more important than those who like it fine the way it is?
And I'm not talking about losing factions just in terms of losing army books; my Tilean army is gone, it cannot continue to exist in its present form. It either becomes a "historical" army, or I have to completely rewrite the background material to account for the fact that Tilea doesn't fething exist any more. Did you have a Bretonnian army themed around Louen Leoncouer? Not any more you don't! The campaign me and my friends had that took place after a heavily-rewritten version of the Storm of Chaos events? Oops, completely invalidated, it sure was a great use of my time to spend hours of my free time setting everything up for that one since we only managed to get about a quarter of the way through by our last gaming night.
Fantasy is stagnant because it's ridiculously expensive to get into even compared to 40K, and GW have paid it virtually no attention. Paying it attention doesn't mean they have to advance the timeline, and you would think that both GW and the players would have learned from Storm of Chaos and 13th Black Crusade that advancing the timeline doesn't end well. I can only hope there is a third embarrassing climbdown and retcon in GW's future, because otherwise the only GW games I'll be left playing are ones they don't even publish any more, and that isn't an "I'm quitting!" threat, it's an expression of my own regret at the loss of something I used to enjoy.
Nagash
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood
Krell, Mortarch of Despair
Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow
Vampire Lord
High Necromancer
Ghoul King Strigoi
High Queen Khalida
Tomb King
High Liche Priest
Heroes
Necromancer
Vampire
Wight King
Cairn Wraith
Tomb Banshee
Prince Apophas
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necrotect
Varghulfs
Blood Knights
Cairn Wraiths
Black Coach
Terrorgheist
Mortis Engine
Bones Giant
Hierotitan
Necrosphinx
Screaming Skull Catapult
Casket of Souls
Morghast Archai
Oh the possibilities with that list
So instead of cherry picking units to make a thematic army for Nagash, they just mashed the two books together, added a few new units and called it a day?
Oh the possibilities, indeed. They had the chance to create something actually unique for Nagash, instead we got something you could house rule in an hour.
Nagash
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood
Krell, Mortarch of Despair
Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow
Vampire Lord
High Necromancer
Ghoul King Strigoi
High Queen Khalida
Tomb King
High Liche Priest
Heroes
Necromancer
Vampire
Wight King
Cairn Wraith
Tomb Banshee
Prince Apophas
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necrotect
Varghulfs
Blood Knights
Cairn Wraiths
Black Coach
Terrorgheist
Mortis Engine
Bones Giant
Hierotitan
Necrosphinx
Screaming Skull Catapult
Casket of Souls
Morghast Archai
Oh the possibilities with that list
So instead of cherry picking units to make a thematic army for Nagash, they just mashed the two books together, added a few new units and called it a day?
Oh the possibilities, indeed. They had the chance to create something actually unique for Nagash, instead we got something you could house rule in an hour.
They do have some new stuff coming out for it as well
Nagash
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood
Krell, Mortarch of Despair
Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow
Vampire Lord
High Necromancer
Ghoul King Strigoi
High Queen Khalida
Tomb King
High Liche Priest
Heroes
Necromancer
Vampire
Wight King
Cairn Wraith
Tomb Banshee
Prince Apophas
Tomb Prince
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necrotect
Varghulfs
Blood Knights
Cairn Wraiths
Black Coach
Terrorgheist
Mortis Engine
Bones Giant
Hierotitan
Necrosphinx
Screaming Skull Catapult
Casket of Souls
Morghast Archai
Oh the possibilities with that list
So instead of cherry picking units to make a thematic army for Nagash, they just mashed the two books together, added a few new units and called it a day?
Oh the possibilities, indeed. They had the chance to create something actually unique for Nagash, instead we got something you could house rule in an hour.
They do have some new stuff coming out for it as well
Hence why I said
they just mashed the two books together, added a few new units and called it a day?
Simply mashing the two books together and adding a couple of unique units is extremely uninspired game design. I don't know why I'm surprised they did it like this, but I am. Wasted opportunity to make something actually unique.
model and kill my enthusiasm again in the space of 10 minutes.
-ton of lore to play a game.
There is a model of 
