Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that, the closer rule is in the flyer section where is specified that a flyer cannot leave the field the same turn they arrive but they are not flyers. If that is possible, a squad of 6 could be easily used as a bombardment unit with almost no counter (but intercept) with unlimited range and untouchable and able to secure linebreaker every game.

Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

So what are your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Arnais wrote:
Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that

Covered in the Skyleap rule itself, immediately after it talks about Ongoing Reserves.

Arnais wrote:
Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

It is weird, but that's what the Deep Strike rules say. Whilst I'd be fine with it, that's purely HIWPI and not RAW.

 Quanar wrote:

Arnais wrote:
Are the Hawks able to skyleap the same turn they arrive?I have found nothing in the rules that forbid them to do that

Covered in the Skyleap rule itself, immediately after it talks about Ongoing Reserves.

Arnais wrote:
Another argument I have seen is about if they can start on turn 1 on the table, skyleap and then DS turn 2. Some people say that because the DS rule specifies that a unit must start in reserves in order to DS the hawks lose their DS. But when the hawks leave the field they go into ongoing reserves which follow the same rules as reserves. So wouldn't the Hawks keep their DS as ongoing reserves?

It is weird, but that's what the Deep Strike rules say. Whilst I'd be fine with it, that's purely HIWPI and not RAW.

I can't believe I never saw that phrase, thanks. I didn't do it anyway because I wasn't sure and it felt way too overpowered but now is nice to not have the temptation XD. Well they still excel at bombing pathfinders and decimating a kroot squad in the same turn.

Could that rule be interpreted to mean start the turn in reserve?

 Homeskillet wrote:
Could that rule be interpreted to mean start the turn in reserve?

Depends what you mean by "interpreted"? Word-for-word, the Deep Strike rules tells you that in order to deep-strike, you must start the game in reserve. IMO there's not much room for 'interpretation' there. You could argue intent, but since none of us have a psychic link to the games development team, it's a bit tenuous.

Given how few units are capable of it (I'm struggling to think of any beyond Hawks and any Forgeworld flyer), I'm just going to assume that GW didn't even consider the possibility when writing the rule.

Arnais wrote:
I can't believe I never saw that phrase, thanks. I didn't do it anyway because I wasn't sure and it felt way too overpowered but now is nice to not have the temptation XD. Well they still excel at bombing pathfinders and decimating a kroot squad in the same turn.

I come from the land of Team Zero Comp. Embrace the over-powered.

I have beeen playing Hawks for a while. I start 'em on table and bounce them out to Ongoing Reserves, from which they most assuredly wrack up Maelstrom points. And they occassionally manage to kill a tac-equivalent unit (combined template and LasBlaster shooting). Not often though.

For me, there's no real ambiguity. Sky Leap is one of the better, clearer rules GW has managed to pen.

Their Swooping Hawk wings makes them Jump Infantry, which grants them all Deep Strike. Their Skyleap rules states that they go into Ongoing reserves (so automatically come back on). Any interpretation that deprives them of deep striking back on means that the Gate Of Infinity power can't work either, nor any other related power where the entire units did not both 1) have deep strike and 2) start in reserves.

See also:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600053.page#6926237
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613892.page#7181358

There's no problem with Swooping Hawks Deep Striking from ongoing reserves after Skyleaping. As long as they started the game in deep strike reserve. The rules are quite clear on this.

 Quanar wrote:
Given how few units are capable of it (I'm struggling to think of any beyond Hawks and any Forgeworld flyer), I'm just going to assume that GW didn't even consider the possibility when writing the rule.

Mawlocs.

 Happyjew wrote:
Mawlocs.

Ah yes, thank you. Are Mawlocs worded similarly to Hawks or does it specifically mention Deep Strike?

Remove from table and place it into Ongoing Reserves.

Interesting to note, Terror From the Deep refers to arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, so strict RAW, you cannot Terror From the Deep after Burrowing.

It also would mean that a psyker can't use GoI unless they started the game in reserves....

When debating a rule, I always go for the answer that doesn't break the game.

Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

Maybe the digital or non-english books mention Deep Strike, but it's utterly absent from the Skyleap rule I've got in front of me. Strictly RAW you'd have to walk on from your edge afterwards. That said, I've yet to meet anyone who argued that as RAI, and if I did I'd have to break out the Sarcastic Eyebrow.

GoI is a better example of specific beats general, otherwise you'd never be able to cast it on any unit that wasn't entirely made up of models with the Deep Strike rule that started the game in DS reserves.

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Crons can have this happen too.

Shrouding (veil thing, cant remember the name) to move about the board, then you mishap and go into ongoing reserves. You are placed in ongoing reserve so you deepstrike back, not just walk back on. Right?

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?

Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?

Further, for those who think they can bop out the turn they arrive, no. Second sentence on page 35, "[skyleap] cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from Reserve."
So,
5. Birds stay on table for Turn 2.
6. Turn 3, Skyleap out again.
7. Turn 4, re-arrive, without a Reserve Roll, and not scattering either, cuz 6 birds don't scatter.
8. Keep on table Turn 5 in case you don't wanna have them cost you a point for being in Reserve on Purge or other such missions.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?.

Strict RAW, Tonberry is correct. In order to deep strike, you must start the game in deep strike reserves. Furthermore, nothing in any rule allows you to place models in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore, if a unit leaves the table, via Skyleap, Burrow, or leaving Combat Airspace, then they enter Ongoing Rseserves, but not Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes this does mean that technically, GoI, VoD, Terror from the Deep/Burrow, Skyleap/Herald of Victory does not always work.

That being said, I think it is clear that the intent for all of these is to work all the time, and therefore you can Deep Strike after Skyleap.

 Happyjew wrote:
Strict RAW, Tonberry is correct. In order to deep strike, you must start the game in deep strike reserves. Furthermore, nothing in any rule allows you to place models in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore, if a unit leaves the table, via Skyleap, Burrow, or leaving Combat Airspace, then they enter Ongoing Rseserves, but not Deep Strike Reserves.

Yes this does mean that technically, GoI, VoD, Terror from the Deep/Burrow, Skyleap/Herald of Victory does not always work.

That being said, I think it is clear that the intent for all of these is to work all the time, and therefore you can Deep Strike after Skyleap.

Nicely done, HJ.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Wouldn't both of these be a simple case of specific/codex trumping general?
Skyleap says you are placed in ongoing reserves, and then deep strike... that is a pretty clear instruction. That would override what the BRB has to say about needing to start the game in reserves.

It says nothing of the sort. There is no mention of Deep Strike anywhere in the Skyleap rule.

How are you expecting them to get back on the table from ongoing reserve? Walk on from their table edge?

Yes if they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Those are the rules.

You've claimed "The rules are quite clear on this" twice. Would you please care to provide citation? Page?

As I have been playing them against GT winning opponents:
1. Start birds on the table.
2. Skyleap out.
3. Automatically come on Turn 2, because of Ongoing Reserves.
4. Deep Strike because they're jumpers.

RAI: Deep Strike because that's their whole thing: Drop the template and shoot crappy guns.

So, if the GT stomping dudes, who darn well know the RB (some of whom play eldar) are not pointing out that I should walk them on, might you be mistaken, Tonberry7?

Am I mistaken? Absolutely not. The rules regarding Deep Striking are unambiguous.

Your response is to ask for rule citations and then proceed to outline an HIWPI argument which I find a little strange. You appear to be saying "This is how I've always played it, so it must be right", and attempt to validate this argument with references to "GT stomping dudes", which has no merit or relevance in a discussion of the actual RAW. You can play whoever you want, with any house rules that you want, but the fact of the matter is that the RAW give you no permission to Skyleap off the table in Turn 1 and then Deep Strike back on in Turn 2.

For the citations you are requesting, look to the Deep Strike rule. It explicitly states that in order to Deep Strike a unit must have the Deep Strike rule and must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If you deploy your hawks on the table on Turn 1 you cannot possibly satisfy the second requirement at any point in the game. Swooping Hawks have no special rules giving permission to Deep Strike any differently than in accordance with the RAW, nor do the rules for Ongoing Reserves. The Skyleap rule does not even mention Deep Strike and so any Codex > Rulebook argument is non-existent.

In terms of your RAI claims, there is no way you can be certain of the intent of the writers. An equally valid interpretation would be that the rules were written as they were to specifically prevent exploitation of Skyleap to perform a guaranteed Turn 2 Deep Strike and circumventing having to take your chances with reserves rolls like everyone else. As for doing "their thing" as you put it (which also has no relevance in a RAW discussion), why would a bunch of winged warriors who specialise in swooping in to the battle even consider starting a battle standing around on the ground just like normal footslogging infantry?

As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.


Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Dude, HJ pretty much confirmed / corroborated / verified that you've got the ruling right, the RAW.

And it seems that most of California's players are going with RAI. And yeah, I guess that's our statewide, region wide, House Rule / interpretation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

Well, HJ, then you'd be playing it *wrong*, man.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

I originally thought this too but just to be clear, I don't think there's any restriction on Deep Striking back on from Ongoing Reserve as long as the Hawks meet the requirement for having started the game in Deep Strike Reserve. So they could potentially Deep Strike in Turn 2 if they pass their reserve roll, Skyleap in Turn 3 and automatically Deep Strike again in Turn 4 etc.

It's just the so-called tactic of starting on the board, Skyleap on Turn 1 and Deep Striking on Turn 2 that is illegal because in this scenario they cannot possibly meet one of the fundamental rule requirements to Deep Strike, namely having started the game in Deep Strike Reserve. They can still re-join the battle by walking on from their table edge though.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
As it stands, if you want to Deep Strike a unit of Hawks and use their grenade pack attack, your only option is to place the unit in Deep Strike Reserve and roll for the unit to come in from Reserves. If this is successful you can then Skyleap them the following turn (or later) and then Deep Strike back in again the turn afterwards. Perhaps your GT stomping dudes don't know the RB as darn well as you may think; maybe you should point out the actual rules next time you play them. Or just continue to house rule it, I don't mind.

Dude, HJ pretty much confirmed / corroborated / verified that you've got the ruling right, the RAW.

And it seems that most of California's players are going with RAI. And yeah, I guess that's our statewide, region wide, House Rule / interpretation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Not necessarily. As I pointed out, the unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves, not Deep Strike Reserves. Since they are not in Deep Strike Reserves, they cannot Deep Strike back on the table.

Of course, I don't think this is intended, nor would I play it that way.

Well, HJ, then you'd be playing it *wrong*, man.

By that interpretation, Gate of Infinity won't work on anyone who started on the board either. Agree/disagree? I disagree. Ditto for mawlocs and anything else with similar wording.

Can you explain why Gates of Infinity wouldn't work given that the target unit isn't actually deep striking. The power just gives them permission to move somewhere else on the table and tells us to place the models using the same method detailed in the DS rules.

If you think they are in fact deep striking you couldn't use that power on any model that doesn't have the DS rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Can you explain why Gates of Infinity wouldn't work given that the target unit isn't actually deep striking. The power just gives them permission to move somewhere else on the table and tells us to place the models using the same method detailed in the DS rules.

If you think they are in fact deep striking you couldn't use that power on any model that doesn't have the DS rule.

See the GoI rules. It arrives back " immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike". Any interpretation that denies Skyleap denies GoI.

Note that Skyleap doesn't mention Deep Strike, presumably because it is ONLY available on a Jump infantry model, which gives the DS rule itself.

You're right. GoI gives the unit specific permission to immediately be placed by deep strike, overriding the BRB requirements to be able to do so. However Swooping Hawks have no such permission to ignore the prerequisites for deep striking.

As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.

If one want to read things in a brutally contrived fashion, you can make the argument, but that same reading also bans anything else, including GoI users who
1) Don't have the deep strike already
2) did NOT start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.


#1 is what nixes GoI users, bc: Since GoI does not say it grants units the DS rule - just that you use those to put them back on. no DS rule? Can't DS.
#2 is the argument against Hawks and it would then apply against ANYONE using GoI who hadn't started in DS Reserves.

In 5th ed codex they could jump in and out the same turn, they lost that in sixth and someone still wants to nerf them harder and is grasping at straws.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.

The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.

In contrast, if your Hawks are in ongoing reserve you might decide that you want to try and deep strike them. Without any specific rules exempting them from the prerequisites for deep strike, they then have to see if they meet those requirements before you can start placing models.

So once again, if the Hawks don't start the game in deep strike reserve, they can't deep strike from ongoing reserves.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.

The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.

A strict reading to deny Hawks means that GoI is "obviously" intended to allow a librarian to jump in on T2+ and then jump elsewhere in the game with someone else arriving from deep strike and having the deep strike rule (so no teleporting T1 podded sternguard either), not start on the board in T1 and jump anywhere. Those are both absurd interpretations, IMO.

The Deep Strike Rules say you need to have the Deep Strike rule and start in reserves to arrive from Deep Strike. Gate of Infinity says you use the deep strike rules, not that the unit gains the deep strike rule and didn't have to start in reserves. If you want to deny Hawks deep striking in from ongoing reserves on that basis, you deny GoI. If you read the rules loosely in your favor and strictly against the other guy, you really undermine the legitimacy of your argument.

So once again, if the GoI doesn't say it grants the unit the Deep Strike rule and they didn't need to start in reserves first, they can't deep strike by that same needlessly contrived reasoning.

Its about whether you read it as a restriction or a permission. Deep Strike in order to use Deep Strike, you must be in Reserves. Deep strike grants you the ability to move on from an alternate method then any other and Deep Strike cannot be used once you are on the board.

Deep strike never addresses GOI or Skyleap as those are more specific rules. It does not even address Ongoing Reserves.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
As the rules for Deep Striking don't give explicit permission for GoI users to ignore the "deep strike reserve, t2, etc" parts of the DS rules, if Hawks can't do it, RAW, neither can GoI user.

The rules for GoI give the explicit permission. I explained that already. The GoI rule tells you specifically that they arrive. Specific rule > general rule.

A strict reading to deny Hawks means that GoI is "obviously" intended to allow a librarian to jump in on T2+ and then jump elsewhere in the game with someone else arriving from deep strike and having the deep strike rule (so no teleporting T1 podded sternguard either), not start on the board in T1 and jump anywhere. Those are both absurd interpretations, IMO.

The Deep Strike Rules say you need to have the Deep Strike rule and start in reserves to arrive from Deep Strike. Gate of Infinity says you use the deep strike rules, not that the unit gains the deep strike rule and didn't have to start in reserves. If you want to deny Hawks deep striking in from ongoing reserves on that basis, you deny GoI. If you read the rules loosely in your favor and strictly against the other guy, you really undermine the legitimacy of your argument.

So once again, if the GoI doesn't say it grants the unit the Deep Strike rule and they didn't need to start in reserves first, they can't deep strike by that same needlessly contrived reasoning.

I'm really having trouble following what you're trying to say here. You seem to be jumping back and forth between the two different topics of swooping hawks and GoI. How can I deny Hawks deep striking from ongoing reserve on the basis of the GoI rules?

I'm not even trying to deny that Hawks can DS from ongoing reserves. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table.

As for GoI I'm not claiming the unit gains the DS rule. GoI gives the unit specific permisssion to be removed from the board and immediately re-arrive using the DS rules due to the manifestation of the power. There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI.

To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows swooping hawks to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to deep strike?

Honestly the Deep Strike Special Rule is fast approaching my candidate for the most 'annoyingly written' of the Special Rules, which is saying something given it the other candidates in that category.
... Actually, does Dakkadakka do sort of 'award show' type things from time to time where we can vote on these things?

At this point in time, I personally feel that Deep Strike never should have been written as a Special Rule....
The Arriving by Deep Strike sequence could have easily been a sub-set of Rules found in a numerous other sections of the book, with the primary candidate being the section detailing what Reserves. With such a formatting change, there would be nothing more then a sequence simply known as 'Deep Striking,' it could even keep the current name 'Arriving by Deep Strike' without a problem, and a quick run down that informs us that certain Rules will refer to this sequence. It would then be up to these other Rules to inform us of the conditions required to access said sequence, allowing the Authors to create specific Restrictions instead of having to remember every default Restriction so they can create specific Exceptions to them.

Then we wouldn't have this mess where a Rule refers us back to the entirety of the Deep Strike Special Rule, including problematic Restrictions which can not be obeyed, when it simply wants us to use the Sequence found within....

Not really, the rules for Specific vs Advanced cover most the problems.

No, Really, as Basic Vs Advanced only comes into play when there is a direct conflict which returns to this question:
Can we even evoke an optional Rule stating that we must to do X if there is a Restriction that would make X illegal?

Now I have stretched the concept in the past when it came to these very same Restrictions, which is where I first realized the Deep Strike Special Rule had a problem. The very act of going to such extensive lengths just to prove a conflict even exists should not be required, it should be very obvious when such do occur and even better written Rules would address such situations internally. The very fact that we have to regularly Evoke 'Basic Vs Advanced' shows there is a massive problem with the way the Deep Strike Special Rule itself is written. It is literally accepting that we have to 'tricked out of existence' a few very annoying and clearly not applicable Restrictions just to get the game to function.

A few minor formatting changes is all it would take to eliminate the entire need for us to greatly abuse the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to simply access a sequence that far to many Rules rely on....

 Tonberry7 wrote:

I'm not even trying to deny that Hawks can DS from ongoing reserves. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table.

And I'm not even trying to deny that GoI users can DS immediately. I'm just saying they can only do that if they start the game in deep strike reserve and therefore this isn't an option if they start the game on the table, nor can they if the unit does not have the Deep Strike rule in it's profile/unit type. If your Librarian and a termi unit starts in reserve, comes on in T2 after a roll and then you want to use GoI to bounce them around in T3, feel free. Don't try to do that if either starts on the board though, not with any unit that doesn't already have the Deep Strike rule if you are going to say that Hawks can't.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

As for GoI I'm not claiming the unit gains the DS rule. GoI gives the unit specific permisssion to be removed from the board and immediately re-arrive using the DS rules due to the manifestation of the power. There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI.

As for Skyleap the unit explicitly has the DS rule as a result of being Jump Infantry. Skyleap gives the unit specific permission to be removed from the board and be placed into on-going reserves, which auto-arrive the following re-arrive, presumably using the DS rules as any other interpetation is daft. Do Mawlocs burrow and then.... walk on from their own edge? There is no mention of ongoing reserves in GoI, nor is the mention of granting the unit the Deep Strike rule, nor an exception to any of the rules for deep strike. It says they can arrive following the rules for deep strike, which have those two conditions which the GoI does not explicitly state it grants/ignores.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows swooping hawks to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to deep strike?

To simplify matters, why don't you just stick to the actual rules and if you can, cite the permission that allows Gate Of Infinity to ignore the restriction of having to start the game in DS reserve (and have the DS rule) in order to deep strike?

If you want to read the rules in a severe fashion, do so consistently. If you want to deny Hawks (and Mawlocs and I assume the Necron guys, depending on their rules), then you have to deny GoI for most uses too.

RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....

JinxDragon wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....

Absolutely agreed. It's not HIWPI either, I'm just pointing that out for the guy who wants to ban Hawks from T1 leaping off and then DSing in T2 on that basis. He wants to be RAW against them but then RAI for GoI. I think if you want to be RAW, then be RAW, don't waffle when RAW goes against your guys. That's WAAC IMO.

In a Rule as Written debate I don't think it should matter if the Rule being discussed is a boon or a bane to any given side, only what is Written.

JinxDragon wrote:
No, Really, as Basic Vs Advanced only comes into play when there is a direct conflict which returns to this question:
Can we even evoke an optional Rule stating that we must to do X if there is a Restriction that would make X illegal?

Now I have stretched the concept in the past when it came to these very same Restrictions, which is where I first realized the Deep Strike Special Rule had a problem. The very act of going to such extensive lengths just to prove a conflict even exists should not be required, it should be very obvious when such do occur and even better written Rules would address such situations internally. The very fact that we have to regularly Evoke 'Basic Vs Advanced' shows there is a massive problem with the way the Deep Strike Special Rule itself is written. It is literally accepting that we have to 'tricked out of existence' a few very annoying and clearly not applicable Restrictions just to get the game to function.

A few minor formatting changes is all it would take to eliminate the entire need for us to greatly abuse the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to simply access a sequence that far to many Rules rely on....

So you dont consider a rule that allows you to move around the board "as if" Deep Striking, more specific than the rule stating that you have to start in reserves to Deepstrike?

JinxDragon wrote:
In a Rule as Written debate I don't think it should matter if the Rule being discussed is a boon or a bane to any given side, only what is Written.

Agreed, but he's trying to have to both ways. Fragile wants the technicalities apply to unit X because they don't say they ignore it, but he doesn't apply to unit Y, even though it doesn't say they ignore it either. I have my view. it is consistent and most people play it that way (100% of my meta).

I'm fine with an overly technical reading of rules - that can be its own kind of fun, but I want consistency. If you quibble over an eighth of an inch for my tank to fit on a bridge, don't walk your assault guys more than 6" from your deployment zone in the movement phase. Loose or tight, keep it consistent.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerrobble:
Being a broken conclusion doesn't mean it is incorrect within the confines of a Rule as Written debate.
There is a reason why I do not use the exact Written Rules to play this game....

Absolutely agreed. It's not HIWPI either, I'm just pointing that out for the guy who wants to ban Hawks from T1 leaping off and then DSing in T2 on that basis. He wants to be RAW against them but then RAI for GoI. I think if you want to be RAW, then be RAW, don't waffle when RAW goes against your guys. That's WAAC IMO.

No, I've applied RAW in both situations, you're just misunderstanding and claiming that I'm being inconsistent for some reason.

Once again, the GoI rule explicitly tells you that the unit arrives. This specific instruction overrides any restriction in the DS rule that determines whether they can arrive by DS or not. Advanced rule > Basic rule.

Otherwise you couldn't cast GoI on any unit containing models which don't have the DS rule anyway.

I notice you still haven't cited a rule allowing Hawks to ignore these restrictions.

Fragile wrote:

So you dont consider a rule that allows you to move around the board "as if" Deep Striking, more specific than the rule stating that you have to start in reserves to Deepstrike?

Fragile, why do you ignore my counter point for point example? It makes it seem like you are trying to have it both ways.

The Deep Strike rules say you must start the game in DS Reserves and that you must have the DS rule to DS. If the Hawks needs to be explicitly allowed to DS back in, then you certainly need to show where in the GoI that it grants the DS rule to units affected and that they can ignore the "DS start in Reserves", so that they can take advanatage of those rules if they don't already have DS and didn't start in DS Reserves. Otherwise your Hawk view must mean that only Libbies and Termies arriving from DS on T2+ can ever use the GoI.

Fragile,
Can an optional Rule, such as casting a Psychic Power, be evoked if the instructions within would knowingly violate a 'Must' Restriction?

I've made my personal view on the matter known because Deep Strike is officially 'broken' from a Rule as Written perspective as far as I am concerned. Accessing the Arriving by Deep Strike sequence involves triggering Restrictions within the greater Deep Strike Special Rule. For any secondary Rules trying to access this sequence to function, at all, they need to address these Restrictions and grant us permission to bypass them. As the Rules in question fail to do that, the only thing we get around the problem is by creating elaborate 'conflicts' in order to prove we have permission to ignore the Restrictions.

How is that not broken?

@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".

Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".

You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".

You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.

My position was that both are able to be done. Deep Strike is a basic deployment rule. It does not address things like Ongoing Reserves and things that let you move "as if DSing."

In this case GoI is specifically allowed because it skips past the requirements for DS and goes straight to Arriving. Hawks are allowed to enter Ongoing Reserves past Turn 1 and can DS per JI. Anything that says it moves like DS'ing, such as Veilteks is a more specific rule that lets you follow the DS rules.

Fragile wrote:
My position was that both are able to be done.

And there within lay the confusion. RAW was under the impression you were for allowing GoI to work but not Deep Striking from Ongoing Reserves.


Now I think we can all agree that this is settled?

Fragile wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Fragile wrote:
@Raw, how am I trying to have it both ways. Your trying to limit abilities of a unit and a psychic power based on a basic deployment type "Starting the game in Reserves".

You seem to be advocating that Swooping Hawks, a Jump Infantry Model with the Deep Strike rule, can not deep strike onto the board unless they started off the board in turn 1, on the basis of the DS rule stating they must start in DS Reserve before the game to DS.

At the same time, you seem to be saying that a GoI spell, which says "use the DS rules", can somehow lets a unit that was not in DS Reserves before the game began DS back in. That seems inconsistent to me in RAW vs RAI.

GoI says "use the DS rules", not "use the DS rules but ignore the DS restrictions". Under that logic, if a Librarian starts on the board before T1, he can't come back in at all after using GoI. To me, any interpretation that negates Hawk jump out T1 jump in T2 negates GoI too.

HIWPI is I'll let my opponent jump hawks out on T1 and back in on T2 and let Librarians/etc pinball their sternguard around with GoI and I'll expect the same. But then I remind people to use their shatter terrain warpsmith power when they forget, because I want everyone to have fun and not feel bad.

My position was that both are able to be done. Deep Strike is a basic deployment rule. It does not address things like Ongoing Reserves and things that let you move "as if DSing."

In this case GoI is specifically allowed because it skips past the requirements for DS and goes straight to Arriving. Hawks are allowed to enter Ongoing Reserves past Turn 1 and can DS per JI. Anything that says it moves like DS'ing, such as Veilteks is a more specific rule that lets you follow the DS rules.

The whole point of this thread, as I see it, is "Does Skyleap allow Swooping Hawks start on the table T1, jump off and then, from ongoing reserves, come back on automatically via DS in T2?"

Ultraconservative reading of the DS rules is that they can not, because they did not start in Deep Strike Reserves (DSR). If ultraconservative reading is uniformly applied, GoI does NOT exempt anyone from that DSR requirement.

Essentially, I believe that RAI, Skyleap is a GoI that puts them back on the next turn instead of the same turn. If it does not, due to ultraconservative reading of the DSR, then GoI doesn't allow them back in either if they were on the board T1.

Fragile, if you disagree, can you quote the rule that says GoI allows one to skip the DSR requirement when applying the DS rules to a GoIing unit?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The whole point of this thread, as I see it, is "Does Skyleap allow Swooping Hawks start on the table T1, jump off and then, from ongoing reserves, come back on automatically via DS in T2?"

Ultraconservative reading of the DS rules is that they can not, because they did not start in Deep Strike Reserves (DSR).

My rulebook no longer even uses that DSR term. It is simply reserves now.

If ultraconservative reading is uniformly applied, GoI does NOT exempt anyone from that DSR requirement.

Essentially, I believe that RAI, Skyleap is a GoI that puts them back on the next turn instead of the same turn. If it does not, due to ultraconservative reading of the DSR, then GoI doesn't allow them back in either if they were on the board T1.

Fragile, if you disagree, can you quote the rule that says GoI allows one to skip the DSR requirement when applying the DS rules to a GoIing unit?

As to GoI.

It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

What is arriving by DS. The rule states....[.Arriving by Deep Strike: Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:.......]

The rules to arrive are then listed.

Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.

There is no "tortured logic" apart from your attempts to use a misinterpretation of GoI rules to justify why swooping hawks should be able to ignore restrictions on being able to deep strike.

Forget GoI as it isn't relevant to the RAW discussion of hawks arriving from ongoing reserve. Please just cite some rules allowing the hawks to ignore the requirement of having to start the game in DS reserve in order to be eligible to deep strike. Or concede that they can't T1 Skyleap then DS in T2.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Interestingly, under Conjuring, Daemonic Summoning seems to be less broken than GoI via the ultraconservative reading as well:
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,". (no rules appended in text)

Since GoI doesn't say arrives by DeepStrike, but explicitly says "Deep Strike rules" there is further RAW against GoI. Again, the tortured logic to deny Hawks a T1 skyleap out and T2 auto DS back in is the same logic that will deny GoI for the same reason.

GoI and Conjuration work fine. Arriving by Deep Strike is clear in the rules. You follow the steps under the Arriving section of the DS rules.

Fragile wrote:

GoI and Conjuration work fine. Arriving by Deep Strike is clear in the rules. You follow the steps under the Arriving section of the DS rules.

No it doesn't, is says they follow the deep striek rules and the deep streike rules say to deep strike you need:
1) The Deep Strike rule - which GoI does not grant RAW, and
2) to have started the game in reserves.

If you want to RAW at people, be consistent. If Hawks can't DS back in if they were on the board in T1, then Gate of Infinity users can't either.

Fragile, again I ask, if you disagree, please quote the RAW rule that grants the exception to those two requirements, because my book says they use the DS rules. It does NOT say they are placed back on they table as if they had just deep struck in. Anything else is irrelevant as "they meant to" can apply to Hawks too.

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.


Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike. (Second Paragraph in digital format)

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

etc....

And the paragraph before that says:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."


Nothing in GoI grants the DS rule or overrides the need to start in reserve. RAW GoI is so deepstrikers can bounce around. If you want to say they meant something else, that's fine but then don't say that they meant to allow GoI but didn't mean to allow Skyleap off T1 and back on T2.

You are told they "Arrive" per the Deep strike rules. "Arriving by Deep strike" is its own sub-section in the rules, clearly labeled at that. Anything that lets you arrive by Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule is obviously a more specific rule and it references the rules you need to use.

Specific > General. Clear case.

Fragile wrote:
You are told they "Arrive" per the Deep strike rules. "Arriving by Deep strike" is its own sub-section in the rules, clearly labeled at that. Anything that lets you arrive by Deep Strike without having the Deep Strike rule is obviously a more specific rule and it references the rules you need to use.

Specific > General. Clear case.

And around we go again. If you want to argue RAW, then where does Gate of Infinity grant a unit the Deep Strike Rule and exempt them from the requirement to start off the table? Because those are required to deep strike at all the way you read it for T1 Skyleaping Hawks. Hint: It doesn't.

Your.... persistence has inspired me to dig deeper, and I've found a way to let Hawks Skyleap T1 and DS T2 but, by the same purist RAW you seem to seek to apply to them, denies Gate.

"Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves"

So there, explicit permission for Hawks. Still waiting to see where GoI says follow only the beneficial parts of the rules for Deep Strike, because you haven't said it yet.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
And around we go again. If you want to argue RAW, then where does Gate of Infinity grant a unit the Deep Strike Rule and exempt them from the requirement to start off the table?

You appear confused. The rule is clearly laid out above. There is nothing of question there.

FYI.. you started this discussion about GoI. You keep trying to bring Hawks into it. Hawks are a separate argument.

GOI never actually deep strikes so has nothing in common with skyleap. Not sure where this comparison even got off.


GOI only requires you re-position your unit using deep strike scatter rules. They are never placed into reserves nor ever have to be in reserves.


Strict RAW, you cannot arrive via deep strike from reserves unless:
A. you started the game in deep strike reserves.
B. a special rule states you are placed into deep strike reserves.


A closer rule to skyleap would be the mawlocs burrow ability if you want to compare rules.

Eihnlazer wrote:
GOI never actually deep strikes so has nothing in common with skyleap. Not sure where this comparison even got off.


GOI only requires you re-position your unit using deep strike scatter rules. They are never placed into reserves nor ever have to be in reserves.


Strict RAW, you cannot arrive via deep strike from reserves unless:
A. you started the game in deep strike reserves.
B. a special rule states you are placed into deep strike reserves.


A closer rule to skyleap would be the mawlocs burrow ability if you want to compare rules.

What is deep strike reserves ?

Fragile wrote:
What is deep strike reserves ?

A specific type of reserves mentioned in passing in the rules for Deep Strike (the first non-fluff paragraph, page 162), but not actually mentioned in the Reserves rules themselves (p135).

 Quanar wrote:

Fragile wrote:
What is deep strike reserves ?

A specific type of reserves mentioned in passing in the rules for Deep Strike (the first non-fluff paragraph, page 162), but not actually mentioned in the Reserves rules themselves (p135).

Not even mentioned in mine.

It is mentioned in passing when it states to tell your opponent when you put a Model into Reserves that it will be Arriving by Deep Striking.

Indeed. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " Outflankers also need to be declared as outflanking prior to deployment. My understanding is nothing lets you change yoru mind and have them walk on afterwards when they (first) enter the board.

Fragile, given my previous post, do you now concede the RAW allow Skyleap to be used to be on the board T1 and DS back in automatically on T2? If not, please explain why not given the explicit RAW excerpts I posted above.

Back to the ongoing reserves thing. It tells us that they auto come in the following turn, but otherwise follow the normal Reserves rules. For normal reserves, wouldn't we declare them "in depstrike reserve" when they are placed there?

So my questions is, if we are otherwise using the noraml reserves rules, when the hawks skyleap T1, cant we just clare them in "deepstrike reserve?"

no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

This means if it was not originally placed in Deep strike reserve at the start of the game, it can never enter the table again through that method (unless a special rule specifically says it may).

Eihnlazer wrote:
no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

Good point.

Skyleap: place in ongoing reserves
Ongoing reserves: automatically come in the next turn
Deep Strike: "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " and "Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
Ongoing Reserves: "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow
the normal rules for Reserves."

One can legitimately debate whether their trip to Ongoing reserves travels through the just plain Reserves or Deep Strike Reserves, but there's no clear RAW against or for it under that perspective - they follow the normal rules for Reserves (which may include DSR), not a unit in (normal) Reserves.

Conjuration lends support to DSR, but it is ambiguous. The Leaving Combat airspace " it then enters Ongoing Reserves. Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield)." implies they get back into the fight as quickly as possible, but again that's not explicit enough to deter a rules lawyer fighting for a predetermined outcome.

The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap, but somehow DO think that RAW, GOI should work on anything that didn't DS onto the board after the game started. GOI says they follow the DS rules, not are placed as if they had DSed. Arrives from DS means [follow the DS rules: Need DS, need to be in DSR pre T1].





There's the whole Spirit of the Game thing too, but that's hardly meaningful on YMDC.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that. This has been pointed out to you several times already and you still haven't cited any rules that allow Swooping Hawks to ignore this requirement.

Constantly grasping at straws and referring to GoI rules is of no relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks coming in from ongoing reserves. You can't use your misinterpretation of other rules to legalise a T1 Skyleap and T2 Deep Strike with Swooping Hawks.

Eihnlazer wrote:
no because ongoing reserve also mentions that when a model enters the table from reserve it cannot change movement modes (if a flier) or the method of entry (if any other unit).

This means if it was not originally placed in Deep strike reserve at the start of the game, it can never enter the table again through that method (unless a special rule specifically says it may).

Ah I see. That makes sense. Makes me wonder if there are even any other cases where is sitiutaion would be possible?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The thing that confuses me is how anyone can think (RAW) Swooping Hawks can't deep strike back in T2 after a T1 skyleap

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that. This has been pointed out to you several times already and you still haven't cited any rules that allow Swooping Hawks to ignore this requirement.

Constantly grasping at straws and referring to GoI rules is of no relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks coming in from ongoing reserves. You can't use your misinterpretation of other rules to legalise a T1 Skyleap and T2 Deep Strike with Swooping Hawks.

I note you keep cutting off the part that says "If nothing says Hawks can, what says GOI can?". I'm fine either way, I just want a consistent reading. I'd appreciate it if you quoted the entire sentence.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

It's probably because the rules for deep strike require the unit to have started the game in deep strike reserves in order to be eligible to deep strike. It's as simple as that.

You put it up there yourself this time. Nothing in Gate of Infinity says they get to ignore that when following the rules for Deep Strike. Stop trying to have it both ways. If Hawks can't by RAW then neither can GOI users who started on the board.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Indeed. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). " Outflankers also need to be declared as outflanking prior to deployment. My understanding is nothing lets you change yoru mind and have them walk on afterwards when they (first) enter the board.

Fragile, given my previous post, do you now concede the RAW allow Skyleap to be used to be on the board T1 and DS back in automatically on T2? If not, please explain why not given the explicit RAW excerpts I posted above.

RAWRAI, you again appear confused. I cannot concede a point that I am not arguing. The point is that GoI works explicitly by RAW. Hawks work as well, but it is a different argument. I was questioning the "Deep Strike Reserve" when the correct term is just 'Reserves". I had missed the part in parenthesis looking over it. That was a term from much previous editions that is slowly being phased out.

For strict RAW and not HIWPI, and per the dakka "how to argue" article, here's numbered premises.

In order to Deep Strike you must:
1) have the Deep Strike rule
2) begin the game in (deep strike) Reserves

To avoid any accidental misunderstand of the Gate of Infinity power, here's the relevant portion of the rule:
"It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"
Please note that, RAW, "arrives using the rules for deep strike" is NOT the same as "place on the board as if it had deep struck". No where does it state that it grants the affect unit the Deep Strike Rule which is required condition 1. It also does not say it exempts the unit from condition #2. You keep saying GOI works by RAW. Where does it grant premises #1 and #2?


Premise 1:
Gate of Infinity does NOT grant Premise 1, so it FAILS this test.
Swooping Hawks, as jump infantry: Check, passes the test.

Premise 2: An strict RAW reading here breaks Skyleap, Mawloc's powers etc. This is the only way to deny Hawks from jumping back in after being on the board T1
Gate of Infinity does NOT grant Premise 2, so it FAILS this test.
If Hawks start on the board fulfill Premise 1, it cannot fulfill premise 2. If you quote on this line and ignore the rest of the post I'll take that as your resignation from legitimate debate on the point.



My question to you is:
If Premise 2 prevents Hawks from coming back after pregame placement on the board, what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

RAWRAI, you continue to refer to irrelevant rules (GoI) as a basis for your argument for Swooping Hawks to break the rules for deep striking from ongoing reserves. No-one is being inconsistent over RAW for ongoing reserves and GoI either. Just to indulge your obsession with GoI, this rule works fine as it is.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
To avoid any accidental misunderstand of the Gate of Infinity power, here's the relevant portion of the rule:
"It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike"

The phrase "immediately arrives" is a specific permission within the rule for the unit to..... immediately arrive. This advanced ruling overrides the general requirements to determine eligibility for a unit to deep strike. I believe this has been pointed out several times already. When resolving a successful manifestation of GoI, you therefore proceed from the part of the deep strike rules where they start detailing the placement of models and scattering etc.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
For strict RAW and not HIWPI, and per the dakka "how to argue" article, here's numbered premises.

In order to Deep Strike you must:
1) have the Deep Strike rule
2) begin the game in (deep strike) Reserves

Premise 2: An strict RAW reading here breaks Skyleap, Mawloc's powers etc. This is the only way to deny Hawks from jumping back in after being on the board T1

There's no "strict RAW". What does this even mean? Is this opposed to lenient RAW where you break the rules that don't suit you? There's either RAW or HIWPI but I'm glad you're finally conceding that the RAW don't allow Hawks to deep strike after being on the board T1.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
My question to you is:
If Premise 2 prevents Hawks from coming back after pregame placement on the board

It doesn't prevent them from coming back via their table edge after pregame placement on the board. It does, however, prevent them from deep striking after pregame placement on the board.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

There is no such permission. Re-read the rule - I've quoted it for you repeatedly. It says arrives using the DS rules, not is placed as if it had DSed. If GOI works, then so does skyleap because the only thing stopping T1 skyleap (did they start in reserve?) also stops GOI.

If you want to state that GOI exempts a unit from the requirement to have started the game in reserves, show where that is written. Again "arrives following the deep strike rules" does NOT mean you get to ignore any of the deep strike rules. If you want to ignore that and just repost "yes it does" feel free to get the last word, but the rule doesn't actually say that or you would have quoted it.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
what allows Gate of Infinity to work on anything that didn't strike in to begin with?

The specific permission given in the actual GoI rule to immediately arrive as discussed above. The same specific permission that allows GoI to work on models without the deep strike rule.

There is no such permission. Re-read the rule - I've quoted it for you repeatedly. It says arrives using the DS rules, not is placed as if it had DSed.

The rule explicitly gives permission for the unit to immediately arrive. I'm not sure how you can interpret this any other way. If, as you're claiming, a unit that is using GoI cannot ignore any part of the deep strike rules do they then have to make a reserve roll after successfully manifesting GoI despite not being in reserve?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If GOI works, then so does skyleap because the only thing stopping T1 skyleap (did they start in reserve?) also stops GOI.

Despite the fact that this statement is logically flawed, GoI works perfectly fine as it is. Skyleap also works. There is nothing stopping a T1 Skyleap. But none of these has any relevance whatsoever to Swooping Hawks being unable to deep strike from ongoing reserves if they didn't start the game in deep strike reserve. You can however Skyleap some Hawks in T1 and then walk them on from their table edge in T2. I really don't know why you keep referring to GoI. It has nothing to do with Hawks in ongoing reserve.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If you want to state that GOI exempts a unit from the requirement to have started the game in reserves, show where that is written.

Gate of Infinity - "It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board". Specific permission overruling the requirement to have started the game in deep strike reserves.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Again "arrives following the deep strike rules" does NOT mean you get to ignore any of the deep strike rules. If you want to ignore that and just repost "yes it does" feel free to get the last word, but the rule doesn't actually say that or you would have quoted it.

Yes it does. Specific permission. I did quote it.

@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: GoI doesn't work for non-deep strike units that did not start the game in reserve.
RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Proof is:

DEEP STRIKE

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Skyleap: A unit composed entirely of models with this
special rule can ‘skyleap’ - when it does so, remove the
unit from the board and place it in Ongoing Reserve. This
cannot be done in the same turn that the unit arrives from
Reserve. A skyleap can only be performed at the start of the
unit’s Movement phase, before Regroup tests.

Gate of Infinity is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Unless the target is Zooming or Swooping, remove the target and his unit from the board. It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

RAI: GoI MAY NOT EVEN BE SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR NON DEEP STRIKE UNITS.

RAI: Skyleap and other similar abilities mean the Hawks go back to reserve and deep strike the next turn.

The point you are making about Skyleap is tied to every single other rule that uses the "deep strike rules", including GoI, Mawlocs, and so many more.


I know you're just having fun with your prey though, so don't mind me, I just don't want anyone having the impression that there is only one person on the right side of the debate.

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

You're wrong because what matters is RAI, and RAI the Hawks get to Skyleap T1 and DS T2.

You're also wrong because you suggest that other abilities referring to the DS rule would not be affected by the same argument you used for Skyleap.

morgoth wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
@Tonberry: you're wrong.

RAW: Skyleap doesn't grant a deep strike for units that did not start the game in reserve.

Agreed. This is very close to the point I've been making all along. So how am I wrong?

You're wrong because what matters is RAI, and RAI the Hawks get to Skyleap T1 and DS T2.

I see. You're now saying the RAW don't really matter then? And Skyleap should be played the way you have interpreted the rule to be intended? So essentially I'm wrong because of the way you think the rule was intended? That's a pretty convincing argument. Remember the fact that the Skyleap rule doesn't even mention deep striking. What if I suggested the RAW and RAI was to prevent Hawks exploiting Skyleap and guaranteeing a T2 deep strike?

morgoth wrote:
You're also wrong because you suggest that other abilities referring to the DS rule would not be affected by the same argument you used for Skyleap.

If you're referring to GoI, I didn't even bring this into the discussion. That was someone else trying to justify breaking the rules for Hawks deep striking from ongoing reserves by misinterpreting a completley unrelated rule. I'd have preferred to stick to the topic. As for GoI it's not the same argument at all. This rule works perfectly fine as specific permission is given for the unit to arrive by deep strike. Hawks have no such permission when arriving from ongoing reserves and have to follow the basic BRB rule.

~)~ RAI does not matter in this forum unless the rule is completely broken and doesnt work within the rules set.


Both of the rules we were talking about work just fine using the RAW even if it seems fishy, thus RAI makes no difference and shouldnt even be brought up.

Just state HIWPI and move on if you dont agree.


RAW, you cannot skyleap T1 and deepstrike.

RAW, you can GOI with units that do not have the deep strike rule, since its a psychic power that has everything you need to preform it written down. You dont need to refference any other part of the book, just do what the power says and you have broken no rules.

Both of these situations have nothing to do with each other so stop trying to compare them.

Eihnlazer wrote:
RAW, you can GOI with units that do not have the deep strike rule, since its a psychic power that has everything you need to preform it written down. You dont need to refference any other part of the book, just do what the power says and you have broken no rules..

And here is where we disagree. What in GoI gives permission to override all of the rules regarding Deep Strike? The claim so far has been "they immediately arrive", which says nothing about overriding the restriction to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves (as the rules for Deep Striking instruct).

Now I'm fairly certain, that, GoI, VoD, Burrow/TftD, and Skyleap/DS are all meant to work. I don't think the rules as they are currently written actually support this.

happy there is another unit that "arrives" on the table using scatter without deep striking, so there is presedence for this.

Spore mines from the biovores launcher arrive after you roll for scatter and can in fact assault the following assault phase.


The only difference is that when you use GOI you can scatter onto a unit and mishap, and you are specifically told you cannot assault.

The spore mines cant mishap because they have already scattered and are unable to touch a unit.


EDIT: the above argument doesnt really respond to you i notice so i'll add this.

GoI gives you permission to ignore deep strike rules because you are not in fact deep striking. You are just following the rules the power lays out to you when you successfully manifest it. It doesnt happen in the movement phase or at the start of the turn (which is when deep strikers come in) and so has absolutely nothing to do with deep strike itself. It only even mentions deep striking because it uses the exact same method of placement on the table and mishap chart.

Eihnlazer wrote:
happy there is another unit that "arrives" on the table using scatter without deep striking, so there is presedence for this.

Spore mines from the biovores launcher arrive after you roll for scatter and can in fact assault the following assault phase.


The only difference is that when you use GOI you can scatter onto a unit and mishap, and you are specifically told you cannot assault.

The spore mines cant mishap because they have already scattered and are unable to touch a unit.

No, the only difference is that Spore Mines don't reference the Deep Strike rules.

EDIT: the above argument doesnt really respond to you i notice so i'll add this.

GoI gives you permission to ignore deep strike rules because you are not in fact deep striking. You are just following the rules the power lays out to you when you successfully manifest it. It doesnt happen in the movement phase or at the start of the turn (which is when deep strikers come in) and so has absolutely nothing to do with deep strike itself. It only even mentions deep striking because it uses the exact same method of placement on the table and mishap chart.

Again, GoI says to use the rules for Deep Strike. The rules for Deep Strike says the entire unit must have the Deep Strike special rule, and start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. There is nothing in the GoI rules that overrides this, despite your claim otherwise.

If thats the case i'll apologize but i was fairly certain GoI did not actually deep strike.

I didnt see anywhere in the description of GoI to remove the model from the table and deep strike them. I just read it as you re-position them using the deep strike scatter rules.

Eihnlazer wrote:
If thats the case i'll apologize but i was fairly certain GoI did not actually deep strike.

I didnt see anywhere in the description of GoI to remove the model from the table and deep strike them. I just read it as you re-position them using the deep strike scatter rules.

This is exactly right. The unit using GoI isn't actually deep striking. Permission is given to remove them from the board and then immediately re-arrive elsewhere. They don't enter ongoing reserves and deep strike back in. Yes, it says they arrive using the rules for deep strike but this just means you place them back on the board using the deep strike rules for placement and scatter etc.

If the GoI unit were arriving via deep strike it would say so unambiguously. Look at the wording used for Conjured Daemon units; the Conjuration rules specifically say "when the power is resolved, the new unit arrives via deep strike" showing clearly that they are deep striking.

Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.

I can't believe they haven't dropped that ball yet.

It says: USES THE RULES FOR DEEP STRIKE.

So, you use all the rules, some of which say you need to have the DS special rule AND start in reserve.

It would still be an awesome power that way, BTW.

And for the RAI/RAW argument, I don't think there's any shadow of a doubt that the intent was to let Swooping Hawks Deep Strike again anytime they Skyleap.

If you think otherwise, that means you believe it's more likely that every side-effect of new rule wording in v7 is intended, i.e. that GW is omniscient, never makes mistakes, ...

When we already know that they make big mistakes and the BRB can even contradict itself in places.

You are welcome to believe that RAI is not that, but Occam's Razor says I'm right and you're wrong.

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.

It also grants them specific permission to arrive immediately. You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Exactly this. RAW, GoI only grants the unit permission to USE the DS rules. You must follow the rules that you are using in their entirety.

It also grants them specific permission to arrive immediately. You can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately.

To arrive immediately, following the rules from Deep Strike.

You may think that this means GW intended for the GoI to allow DS no matter what, but RAW, it just doesn't work like that.

morgoth wrote:
I can't believe they haven't dropped that ball yet.

It says: USES THE RULES FOR DEEP STRIKE.

So, you use all the rules, some of which say you need to have the DS special rule AND start in reserve.

It would still be an awesome power that way, BTW.

The DS rules say you also need to make a roll for reserves if you want to insist on that one too. So again, you can check to see if they have the deep strike rule, started the game in deep strike reserve, and then make a roll for reserves if you want, but they still arrive immediately because the GoI rule gives them specific permission to do so.

morgoth wrote:
And for the RAI/RAW argument, I don't think there's any shadow of a doubt that the intent was to let Swooping Hawks Deep Strike again anytime they Skyleap.

If you think otherwise, that means you believe it's more likely that every side-effect of new rule wording in v7 is intended, i.e. that GW is omniscient, never makes mistakes, ...

When we already know that they make big mistakes and the BRB can even contradict itself in places.

You are welcome to believe that RAI is not that, but Occam's Razor says I'm right and you're wrong.

And for the RAI/RAW argument, RAI has no place in a RAW discussion. It's also not clear at all that it was intended for Hawks to be able to guarantee a T2 deep strike and avoid a reserve roll. You are welcome to play the game any way you want to, but the RAW say I'm right and you're wrong.

And RAW says GoI doesn't work if you did not start the game in reserve.

morgoth wrote:
And RAW says GoI doesn't work if you did not start the game in reserve.

Despite the fact that GoI works fine with current RAW, how is this statement relevant to Swooping Hawks?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

I could answer all of your queries, but since they don't have anything to do with Swooping Hawks arriving from ongoing reserves they are largely irrelevant. I really don't know why people insist on discussing GoI in this thread. Even if GoI was broken in terms of RAW (which it isn't) this would have no bearing on the actual topic of swooping hawks.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Tonberry, why are you choosing which parts of the rule to ignore? Unless told otherwise, you need to use the rule in its entirety. And you are not told otherwise.

Can I choose to ignore the restriction on Slow & Purposeful that says the unit cannot fire Overwatch?

Which rule are you referring to?

I'm referring to the Deep Strike rule. The rules for GoI say to use the rules for Deep Strike, do you agree or disagree?
The rules for Deep Strike say that all models need to have the Deep Strike special rule, do you agree or disagree?
A Librarian without Terminator armour or a Jump Pack, does not have the Deep Strike special rule, agree or disagree?

If you agree with all of the above, then a Librarian without the Deep Strike special rule, is unable to Deep Strike, and as such, GoI would not work.


If GoI said something like "the unit is removed from the table and then immediately arrives using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" part of the Deep Strike special rule." (or something a little less cluttered, then you would be able to ignore the restrictions in place that require the Deep Strike special rule, and starting the game in Reserves.


What GW should have done, was make Arriving by Deep Striking, Infiltrating, Scout, and Outflank part of the deployment rules, with a preface that says something like "Some models have the ability to Deep Strike. When arriving by Deep Strike..." The special rule "Deep Strike" would then only need to say "If a unit is composed entirely of models with the Deep Strike special rule, they may start the game in Reserves and arrive via Deep Strike (see page XX)." That way if something arrives using the Deep Strike rule, you would refer to "Arriving by Deep Strike" which would not have the restrictions in place.

I could answer all of your queries, but since they don't have anything to do with Swooping Hawks arriving from ongoing reserves they are largely irrelevant. I really don't know why people insist on discussing GoI in this thread. Even if GoI was broken in terms of RAW (which it isn't) this would have no bearing on the actual topic of swooping hawks.

You must have missed where I freely admitted that strict RAW Hawks cannot Leap turn 1 then Deep Strike.
I also claim that for the same reason that Hawks cannot Deep Strike if they did not start in Reserves, then nobody can, unless they have a special rule that specifically overrides it.

At this point , the thread has gone beyond just Skyleap, and is now discussing all Deep Strikes.

You keep claiming that GoI does specifically override because "they immediately arrive." As such, the onus is on you to prove that GoI works RAW. If you insist, however, we can always start a new thread.


Actually that might not be a bad idea. New thread away!

Unless a mod locks as a duplicate.

So, we've established that the rules are poorly written here.

I suspect that won't change the way people play it on this one, though.

Moving on.