No. A combi-flamer-melta-bolter. So you can cleanse, burn and purge all at the same time:
(not my picture)
I must admit I'd like to see some Sisters plastics, or at least a suitable 3rd party alternative, as they are currently the only Imperial faction I don't own. I'm thinking they may be some conversion potential when Dreamforge get round to releasing the Black Widows.
Unless Jes Goodwin sculpts the entire range (a lá Dark Eldar) and the current rules writers are struck by divine inspiration, I say leave the Sisters alone. At this point in GW's history, nothing good will come of it, otherwise. We'll get Sister Menses Menstralclaws wielding the Sword of the Cycle, riding a giant maxi-pad pulled by penitent engines. And a giant Spaceballs Mega-Maid superheavy-walker kit because reasons...
the_Armyman wrote: Sister Menses Menstralclaws wielding the Sword of the Cycle, riding a giant maxi-pad pulled by penitent engines. And a giant Spaceballs Mega-Maid superheavy-walker kit because reasons...
What I find odd is how much love they still seem to have for Sororitas. I got the Leviathan: Shield of Bhaal today and the artwork is just "DAYUM! THIS IS AWESOME". Just translate that artwork into Sororitas, damn it :(
There is a very small number of people who very much love Sisters. The problem is that their supporters are very, very few, and they don't buy much stuff.
If I wanted to make Sisters work, I'd relaunch them in plastic against Dark Eldar in a future boxed "starter" set. Otherwise, fold them under another Imperial army (Guard / Inquisition) and move on.
Still, at least they're available, and that's far better than Chaos Dwarves or Dogs of War.
It is easy to blame the players when we didn't buy the models when the were released in 2nd, and 3rd, etc.
That's why I say we're very lucky GW hasn't Squatted our Sisters.
From a pure business standpoint, GW probably should have pulled the plug back in 4th edition. But obviously, they have some strong champions in the studio that are keeping them on life support.
Of course, there's no money for new models, but better than being Squatted!
At the time I was interested in getting into the army, but the limited range + higher prices than the normal stuff put me off. Now its all just pants on head running in circles crazy prices. The slasher sisters become more of a negative the more i see them. Really, what the hell was gw thinking when they came up with repentia?
No. Two combi melta-flamers. In pistol versions. Hold by a canoness with a jump-pack. With a rule to fire them in close combat and the Hit and Run rule. Like Cypher. Only better because jumppack and flamethrowers.
SisterSydney wrote: It's very hard to blame low demand for models on the player base when GW hasn't released new models for, um, a decade?
Maybe they didn't release new models for a decade because there was low demand for them a decade ago?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
From a pure business standpoint, GW probably should have pulled the plug back in 4th edition. But obviously, they have some strong champions in the studio that are keeping them on life support.
Of course, there's no money for new models, but better than being Squatted!
Not really. What they're doing works well. It's low cost (the 6th Edition Codex was recycled fluff from White Dwarf and recycled art from FFG and previous books), and was packaged into an e-book that has no carrying cost. Easy revenue, and it allows existing players to continue using their models with the updated ruleset, which is good customer service.
I have said this several times now about the sisters.
The reason they do not sell well is because GW doesn't support them. It is a self fulling prophecy. Their 3rd codex was shared with Inq and received no plastic troops. When that somehow didn't sell models GW then decided to take them out of stores. So GW then didn't bother to update them for nearly a decade only to give them a list in WD. Gosh could you believe that not updating the models to plastic, taking them off store shelves and giving them a WD codex list would somehow hurt sales? I mean surely this should have helped. So GW updated us to a digital edex with no model support and cranked the prices to stupid but can you believe that this still didn't sell many models????
Now look at the DE reboot. Unpopular army that wasn't updated for an extremely long time and was taken off store shelves sold poorly. Then GW updates them with a full size print book and re-do's the entire line. Oh look they are starting to sell now and become more popular. I mean who would have thought supporting the army in stores with a full line of models including lots of plastic kits would help sales?
The reason sob sell poorly is because GW can't be bothered to support them and put some effort into them.
The few people who have sob armies also don't buy much because there isn't much to buy. After you buy a couple of squads of boltgun sisters, seraphim, several transports, exorcists and sprinkle special weapons to taste you don't need any more. For a decent 7ed list all you need is boltgun, flamer/heavy flamers, meltaguns sisters with a few rhino's and immolators backed by exorcists and a special character to taste. You don't even need seraphim now a days to have a good list(although I love them and always field a squad in every game).
JohnHwangDD wrote: It is easy to blame the players when we didn't buy the models when the were released in 2nd, and 3rd, etc.
Easy, but silly.
The 2nd edition codex was released, with very little fanfare, three and a half minutes before 3rd edition came along and rendered it obsolete. We already knew that 3rd ed was coming by that point, and so nobody bought it because they didn't know how much 3rd ed was going to change things.
Sisters then languished through 3rd edition, and were once again released as an afterthought right at the end of 3rd edition... It's not surprising if people were a little reluctant to jump on the bandwagon when it had already been tipped over once before.
From the start, Sisters were a battleground between the studio and the beancounters... There have been several comments made over the years to the effect that the studio has wanted to do more with them, but have had to fight just to keep them in the game because the accountants didn't consider them a viable line.
Veteran Sergeant, I'm grateful for the codex we got, believe me. But I still want more... and keep homebrewing it. So what I really wish for 2015 is for GW to rip me off, because, hey, I was playing with their IP anyway, right?
Knock off Terminator movie robots were released in metal at the tail of 2nd and didn't figure much in 3rd. They were uglier, and more expensive than Sisters, but look at them now.
JohnHwangDD wrote:From a pure business standpoint, GW probably should have pulled the plug back in 4th edition. But obviously, they have some strong champions in the studio that are keeping them on life support.
Or had. Andy Hoare no longer works in the studio, as far as I know, and he was the one who kept championing them, from what I gathered at the old yahoo group he used to frequent.
Which explains a lot about what GW did with the Sisters over the past years, if you think about it.
I've actually gotten to a point where I'm thinking they should just squat them - this "neither here nor there" approach just makes it harder to let go.
Torga_DW wrote:The slasher sisters become more of a negative the more i see them. Really, what the hell was gw thinking when they came up with repentia?
Nothing wrong with Repentia - they suit the faction mindset perfectly and are yet another real life reference.
That said, I actually do consider the very first version to be more badass. But I think that's just because she was an independent character rather than a unit, and because of her very fitting special ability.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Knock off Terminator movie robots were released in metal at the tail of 2nd and didn't figure much in 3rd. They were uglier, and more expensive than Sisters, but look at them now.
The initial Necron release was much earlier. There were two releases in 2nd edition... The initial lot which just had Warriors, Scarabs and possibly the Lord, and then a later update which added in Immortals and Destroyers.
Presumably the extra effort they've had put into them since then would be down to either them selling better, or the accountants seeing more potential sales in them.
Seriously, I wish the sisters players best of luck with any new models. About now, even Palin on a T-Rex would be welcome I think, especially with that tripple-combi-boltflamelter
I would be happy with a hardback version of the digi dex at the point. Plastic sisters would certainly make me open my wallet too.
A full revamp would be awesome, it's good to know we haven't been completely forgotten with nods to the faction in the latest campaign book, but it's no substitute for a full release.
Paradigm wrote: I must admit I'd like to see some Sisters plastics, or at least a suitable 3rd party alternative, as they are currently the only Imperial faction I don't own. I'm thinking they may be some conversion potential when Dreamforge get round to releasing the Black Widows.
Expensive 3rd party models, but pretty much what SoB players might want in plastic. Ordered some from there myself. Very flimsy resin but the models are amazing!
Paradigm wrote: I must admit I'd like to see some Sisters plastics, or at least a suitable 3rd party alternative, as they are currently the only Imperial faction I don't own. I'm thinking they may be some conversion potential when Dreamforge get round to releasing the Black Widows.
Expensive 3rd party models, but pretty much what SoB players might want in plastic. Ordered some from there myself. Very flimsy resin but the models are amazing!
Pretty awesome, but a little expensive for my blood and probably quite limited as an army. Undeniably cool, though.
the_Armyman wrote: Unless Jes Goodwin sculpts the entire range (a lá Dark Eldar) and the current rules writers are struck by divine inspiration, I say leave the Sisters alone. At this point in GW's history, nothing good will come of it, otherwise. We'll get Sister Menses Menstralclaws wielding the Sword of the Cycle, riding a giant maxi-pad pulled by penitent engines. And a giant Spaceballs Mega-Maid superheavy-walker kit because reasons...
Part of me wants to say not to give them ideas, but then every army is getting a new monsterous creature and our elites options might as well not exist...
The reason sob sell poorly is because GWcan't be bothered to support them and put some effort into them. hates girls.
Come on. Shadowsun is pretty nice. Eldar female guardians/kaballites/wyches are… just the same as male guardians/kaballites/wyches.
How many female characters are there? How many female models are there for generic, should-be-genderless HQs? How many female torsos are there in non-gender-specific unit boxes? The answers to all of these questions ranges from none to a few. It seems more than a little suspicious that the only army neglected to that extent is the one comprised entirely of women.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Knock off Terminator movie robots were released in metal at the tail of 2nd and didn't figure much in 3rd. They were uglier, and more expensive than Sisters, but look at them now.
The initial Necron release was much earlier. There were two releases in 2nd edition... The initial lot which just had Warriors, Scarabs and possibly the Lord, and then a later update which added in Immortals and Destroyers.
Presumably the extra effort they've had put into them since then would be down to either them selling better, or the accountants seeing more potential sales in them.
Not quite true.
The initial Necron release was (1st quarter '98) four months after the initial Battle Sister release (third quarter '97), and about a month or two before the release of third edition (third quarter '98).
The initial Necron release featured Warriors and Scarabs, then the next month was followed by Lords and Destroyers, along with a battle report (Massacre at Sanctuary 101) in which they murdered the Sisters in an obviously stacked battle (twice as many points, and the Sisters only had a veteran superior leading them).
The Necrons then received a Chapter Approved army list a couple of months after Third Edition dropped, which introduced Immortals. A year later, the Sisters also had a Chapter Approved army list, in which they were basically S/T/I 3 Space Marines without ATSKNF, but no new models until Forge World released their Exorcist and Repressor. The important part here is that Necrons were readily available in most third-party stockists, while to get Sisters models, you had to hope that the local GW had some in - whether this holds true for other parts of the world, I don't know, but certainly in south-east England it was true.
Three years after that, the Necrons got a full codex and a full line of plastic and hybrid models... finally, just before 4th edition came out, the Sisters got Codex: Witch Hunters, which blended them in with the Inquisition and destroyed much of their identity as an army, but introduced Acts of Faith.
Both were then mostly neglected, other than some Forge World goodies and appearances in Dawn of War, until the Necrons got a new codex in 2011, and the Sisters got a white dwarf update in 2012.
Frozen Ocean wrote: How many female characters are there? How many female models are there for generic, should-be-genderless HQs?
Not enough for my taste. But those that are out there are actually quite good compared to the standard in these kind of universes, especially compared to Fantasy, where I remember most female models being either cleavage-showing sorceress, or almost naked dark elves.
(WFB got Valkia though. Valkia looks badass.)
How would SoB players react to a dataslate for Sisters?
I think it would be a good way for GW to gauge interest and give people who don't want to drop a bunch of money trying out Sisters a shot at em.
IMO I think the codex is more harmful to sisters then a dataslate because you either have to drop a bunch of money for metal minis for say 1500 points or whatever amount of sisters plus allies, so minis get moved slowly and GW thinks SoB isn't a viable update candidate.
OTOH, Guard sells, and they have the ugliest plastic infantry, by far. If you want halfway-decent Guardsmen, you have to hunt down the metal minis, and the nice generic metal Cadians have been very long out of production.
It would be nice if Forgeworld could produce a Titan for the Sisters, a massive Penitent Engine that leverages the Knight base. That would be a relatively low investment option to allow GW to gauge interest, while creating something truly amazing.
Frozen Ocean wrote: It seems more than a little suspicious that the only army neglected to that extent is the one comprised entirely of women.
Or Squats (who had over 100 unique models and plastic troops), or Genestealer Cult (who had approximately 40 unique sculpts and plastic troops). When you say "only", it's ridiculously false. The Sisters of Battle were a niche line with 43 unique models by my count. It isn't like there was no precedent for an army to fall by the wayside. I understand we're 20 years removed from the Squats going away (2nd Edition) and probably 15 from the end of the Genestealer Cult (3rd Edition) so the commonality is lost on younger players, but the Sisters model range is no different from either of those armies, in that they borrowed models (Squats used IG/SM tanks, GC borrowed from IG and Tyranids, SoB use SM model-based transports) to complete their army lists.
Some armies succeed, some fail. There's really no more to it. People bought Egyptian Space Terminators so they got more models. The only reason the Sisters haven't gotten more support is probably because the profit potential wasn't seen.
As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
Without going into the well-trod women at war argument...
The Sisters were never well supported in the first place. Barely a handful of box sets were bought by TPRs (the FLGS of the time, before playing games in shops outside Games Workshop became popular), they were nigh impossible to get hold of because the TPRs thought the Necrons would sell better...
I started collecting when the Sisters and the Necrons came out. I wanted, desperately, to collect Sisters.
Could I find any Sisters to buy? Could I hell. Necrons, though? I could go down to the fricken newsagent to buy some Necrons.
Frozen Ocean wrote: It seems more than a little suspicious that the only army neglected to that extent is the one comprised entirely of women.
Or Squats (who had over 100 unique models and plastic troops), or Genestealer Cult (who had approximately 40 unique sculpts and plastic troops).
When you say "only", it's ridiculously false.
Don't forget Dogs of War, who had a proper Warhammer Armies Book (i.e. Codex) and a vast, full range of unique sculpts, including Monsters and War Machines...
GW has Squatted armies before, and they'll do it again. As long as you have a current Codex, life is good.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
Frozen Ocean wrote: It seems more than a little suspicious that the only army neglected to that extent is the one comprised entirely of women.
Or Squats (who had over 100 unique models and plastic troops), or Genestealer Cult (who had approximately 40 unique sculpts and plastic troops).
When you say "only", it's ridiculously false.
Don't forget Dogs of War, who had a proper Warhammer Armies Book (i.e. Codex) and a vast, full range of unique sculpts, including Monsters and War Machines...
GW has Squatted armies before, and they'll do it again. As long as you have a current Codex, life is good.
It's still a heretic:
Piloted by heretics guilty of a terrible crime, they have been given one of the worst imaginable punishments available to the Imperium. A multitude of wires and chemical injectors are implanted into the heretics spine, which are then attached to a mechanical suit of destruction. When not engaged in combat, their chemical implants inject feelings of guilt and pain directly into their brains, reminding them of their sins. Driven by their pilot's frantic need for forgiveness, Penitent Engines charge towards enemy forces heedless for danger, knowing that only in death can forgiveness can be earned.
... this besides the fact that its current Codex entry makes it a "do not ever field this unit" type thing.
Psienesis wrote: Why would you put a heretic in a Titan-sized PE?
Penitent, not Heretic. There's a difference. Heretics are put to death. Penitents serve.
There is no reason a Penitent Engine cannot be scaled up to Knight size...
Homebrew Penitent Titan here. Someone else's idea the whole thread ran with like a giant crazy running thing packed full of tormented heretics whose suffering grants power-ups.... One of its unique special rules is "That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger."
No offense, but the penitent titan idea is exactly what I'm talking about when I said leave things as they are. It's unoriginal, it's a caricature of the already slightly ridiculous idea of religious death machines (of death), and it adds nothing to the army except a big, ugly hunk of plastic. But it's exactly the type of garbage rules-writing and fluff that GW is in love with right now. Don't have any good ideas? Run with the bad ones and make them BIG.
Dear GW,
Make a plastic Repressor. Give us back Zealots. Create a War of Faith list with penal legions, arco-flags, repentia, and Ecclesiarchy characters. Work within the existing wealth of material instead of pulling stuff out of your behind, trying to convince us how clever you are.
Love, All Sisters Players
Now look at the DE reboot. Unpopular army that wasn't updated for an extremely long time and was taken off store shelves sold poorly. Then GW updates them with a full size print book and re-do's the entire line. Oh look they are starting to sell now and become more popular. I mean who would have thought supporting the army in stores with a full line of models including lots of plastic kits would help sales?
This. Also, the Necron Reboot from a bit further back. These so called "unpopular" armies got a huge shot in the arm when GW decided to actually give them a little equal time with other armies. SoBs now are in the same boat Necrons and DE were in earlier editions. Armies that are screwed over by the company don't sell well, because oddly enough, people don't feel like investing eight times the money of another army in something with outdated, sometimes ugly (cough, Repentia, cough) metal models that don't convert well, and with only half a rules set (one troop choice, no superheavies, fewer options in general), that could get squatted or have rules left to lapse for years on end. It's not because nobody wants to play the faction.
The only reason to view the Sisters differently than DE or Necrons is if you believe that most of the GW fanbase won't buy the army because they think girls have cooties.
MrFlutterPie wrote: Now look at the DE reboot. I mean who would have thought supporting the army in stores with a full line of models including lots of plastic kits would help sales?
This. Also, the Necron Reboot from a bit further back. These so called "unpopular" armies got a huge shot in the arm when GW decided to actually give them a little equal time with other armies.
Aye. I never saw a Necron player (or model, or codex) before the reboot. We had exactly one Dark Eldar player before the reboot, and no close-by store had a codex to check if there was a rules problem. I think people bought the starter boxes they came in and just threw away the deldar.
Frozen Ocean wrote: It seems more than a little suspicious that the only army neglected to that extent is the one comprised entirely of women.
Or Squats (who had over 100 unique models and plastic troops), or Genestealer Cult (who had approximately 40 unique sculpts and plastic troops). When you say "only", it's ridiculously false. The Sisters of Battle were a niche line with 43 unique models by my count. It isn't like there was no precedent for an army to fall by the wayside. I understand we're 20 years removed from the Squats going away (2nd Edition) and probably 15 from the end of the Genestealer Cult (3rd Edition) so the commonality is lost on younger players, but the Sisters model range is no different from either of those armies, in that they borrowed models (Squats used IG/SM tanks, GC borrowed from IG and Tyranids, SoB use SM model-based transports) to complete their army lists.
They decided that Squats didn't fit the direction the universe was taking, or something like that. They had reasons. Genestealer Cults are only a subset of Tyranids, who have stayed strong throughout the years. The only reason they've given as to why they haven't updated the Sisters is some absolute nonsense about how they can't sculpt sleeves.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Some armies succeed, some fail. There's really no more to it. People bought Egyptian Space Terminators so they got more models. The only reason the Sisters haven't gotten more support is probably because the profit potential wasn't seen.
Other people with history with this topic are talking about it better than I could.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
They had Farseers in WW2, right? WW2 was, shockingly, a different time, and even then women weren't simply ignored for being women - they took over necessary working roles after most of the men went to war. The Imperium isn't in a situation like that, and it doesn't discriminate as long as you're not a mutant, a heretic, or an alien. The Eldar and Tau are entirely equal, and the Necrons absolutely should be. So where are the female Farseers, Autarchs, Inquisitors, Haemonculi, Crypteks, Commissars, Commanders, Exarchs, Planetary Governors, Tech-Adepts, Assassins, Admirals, Stormtroopers, Imperial Knights, Necron Lords and Overlords, Archons, Daemons who aren't Slaaneshi, and Shas'O? They even went out of their way to mention that female Imperial Knights are nearly non-existent. All of the Phoenix Lords are men except one.
Oh, and not only are they all male, they're all white, too. Yes, even the aliens are white men if applicable.
Me, on a thread talking about Imperial Knights just after their release wrote:It's bad enough that we have so few female characters in general, but now yet another faction is explicitly all-male (and not even for any reason, this time!)? Space Marines are innately all-male, Orks are innately "male", and Tyranids are genderless, but what about the Eldar, Tau, Imperial Guard, Inquisitors (who actually lost the one female character they had) and 5th-ed Necrons, who have one named female character between them (Shadowsun) and one unit that is "the girls" (Banshees, even though Aspects are not explicitly gendered, but of course all of the Phoenix Lords were guys except one)? What about the supposedly-genderless Chaos Daemons? The Dark Eldar have Lady Malys (who will probably disappear next update and is notably inferior to a male character, which she has a bit of a complex about) and Lelith Hesperax, but Lelith is part of the Wyches, who basically exist to be "look the Dark Eldar are pervy and stuff, they have girls in bikinis!". Why couldn't we have a cool character like Drazhar, but female? Why are there no female Inquisitors, Tech-Priests, Farseers, Phaerons, Commissars, Warp Spider Exarchs, tank commanders, Lords of Change, etc?
Spoiler'd for people who don't care. I mostly gathered this information because I was curious.
Spoiler:
Boys Adepta Sororitas: Uriah Jacobus
Chaos Daemons: Kairos Fateweaver, Epidemus, The Blue Scribes, Skulltaker, The Changeling, Karanak, Be'lakor
Chaos Space Marines: Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Khârn the Betrayer, Fabulous Bill, Lucius the Eternal, Huron Blackheart
Dark Eldar: Asdrubael Vect, Baron Sathonyx, Kheradruakh, Duke Sliscus, Drazhar, Urien Rakarth
Eldar: Eldrad Ulthran, Prince Yriel, Illic Nightspear, Asurmen, Karandras, Fuegan, Baharroth, Maugan Ra, The Avatar of Khaine
Orks: Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Boss Snikrot, Boss Zagstruk,
Inquisition: Karamazov, Coteaz
Imperial Guard: Lord Castellan Creed, Colour Sergeant Kell, Knight Commander Pask, Sergeant Bastonne, Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken, Guardsman Marbo, Gunnery Sergeant Harker, Commissar Yarrick, Captain Al'Rahem, Commander Chenkov, Mogul Kamir, Nork Deddog
Necrons: Imotetk the Stormlord, Trazyn the Infinite, Nemesor Zahndrekh, Vargard Obyron, Illuminor Szeras, Orikan the Diviner, Anrakyr the Traveller, Shard of The Deceiver, Shard of The Nightbringer
Space Marines: Commander Dante, Mephiston, The Sanguinor, Astorath the Grim, Chapter Master Gabriel Seth, Captain Tycho, Brother Corbulo, Lemartes, Cypher the Fallen Angel, Supreme Grand Master Azrael, Grand Master of Librarians Ezekiel, Belial, Asmodai, Sammael, Castellan Crowe, Lord Kaldor Draigo, Justicar Thawn, Brother-Captain Stern, Grand Master Mordrak, Marneus Calgar, Captain Sicarius, Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius, Kor'sarro Khan, Forgefather Vulkan He'stan, Captain Kayvaan Shrike, Darnath Lysander, Pedro Kantor, High Marshal Helbrecht, Chaplain Grimaldus, Scout Sergeant Telion, Logan Grimnar, Njal Stormcaller, Canis Wolfborn, Ragnar Blackmane, Ulrik the Slayer, Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Arjac Rockfist, Lukas the Trickster
Tau Empire: Commander Farsight, Darkstrider, Aun'va, Aun Shi, Longstrike, Bravestorm, O'Vesa, Brightsword, Sha'vastos, Ob'lotai (AI imprint of a male character), Arra'kon, Torchstar
Girls Adepta Sororitas: Saint Celestine
Chaos Daemons: The Masque
Dark Eldar: Lady Malys, Lelith Hesperax
Eldar: Jain Zar
Inquisition: Valeria (removed)
Tau: Commander Shadowsun
Breakdown: Note: I don't have every Codex, so I'm using GW's site. This means I'll probably miss some who don't have models. I'm also not including Forge World.
- The specifically female faction, the Sororitas, have one female character and one male character.
- The genderless faction, the Daemons, have nine "male" characters and one female character who is "female" "because Slaanesh". Why can't we get a female Bloodthirster or something? Heck, why no female Daemon Princes, ever?
- If a unit is nameless and non-gender-specific, it will be male almost always (e.g. Farseer). If there are any girls in a squad of nameless troopers, it's very rare (Guardians).
- If something is genderless and not a Tyranid, it is referred to as male unless it's to do with Slaanesh and also pretty/elegant/etc. Why is the Masque female but the Changeling is male? Especially the Changeling!
- Total is 111 boys vs 7 girls, including Valeria.
Let's take away gender-specific characters, mostly Space Marines (characters whose gender is because of what they are).
Boys Adepta Sororitas: Uriah Jacobus
Chaos Daemons: Kairos Fateweaver, Epidemus, The Blue Scribes, Skulltaker, The Changeling, Karanak, Be'lakor
Dark Eldar: Asdrubael Vect, Baron Sathonyx, Kheradruakh, Duke Sliscus, Drazhar, Urien Rakarth
Eldar: Eldrad Ulthran, Prince Yriel, Illic Nightspear, Asurmen, Karandras, Fuegan, Baharroth, Maugan Ra
Inquisition: Karamazov, Coteaz
Imperial Guard: Lord Castellan Creed, Colour Sergeant Kell, Knight Commander Pask, Sergeant Bastonne, Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken, Guardsman Marbo, Gunnery Sergeant Harker, Commissar Yarrick, Captain Al'Rahem, Commander Chenkov, Mogul Kamir, Nork Deddog
Necrons: Imotetk the Stormlord, Trazyn the Infinite, Nemesor Zahndrekh, Vargard Obyron, Illuminor Szeras, Orikan the Diviner, Anrakyr the Traveller, Shard of The Deceiver, Shard of The Nightbringer
Tau Empire: Commander Farsight, Darkstrider, Aun'va, Aun Shi, Longstrike, Bravestorm, O'Vesa, Brightsword, Sha'vastos, Ob'lotai (AI imprint of a male character), Arra'kon, Torchstar
Girls Dark Eldar: Lady Malys
Eldar: Jain Zar
Inquisition: Valeria (removed)
Tau: Commander Shadowsun
It's now 57 vs 4, including Valeria. I removed a few things that I feel need explained; the Avatar, because Khaine is a male god (whatever that means), even though there still isn't any reason why the Young King can't be female; The Masque and Lelith, because their gender is used as part of their job (Dark Eldar/Slaanesh perviness, boys aren't allowed to be pretty/graceful). I didn't remove the C'tan because there's no reason why they need to be gendered - unlike Khaine, because Eldar gods are generally treated like big Eldar.
This is outdated, so the numbers are a little skewed (they removed a few IG characters, for example). It's also not including Forge World characters, but those are all male anyway.
I'm confused... What's the joke with cavewoman riding a dinosaur? I think it might be a dig at GW's fondness of mounts, but why a dinosaur?
the_Armyman wrote: At this point in GW's history, nothing good will come of it, otherwise. We'll get Sister Menses Menstralclaws wielding the Sword of the Cycle, riding a giant maxi-pad pulled by penitent engines. And a giant Spaceballs Mega-Maid superheavy-walker kit because reasons...
I dunno, I think it could go okay. The SoB have a pretty strong aesthetic (gothic, religious), one that's a little harder than others to go over the top with. I think there's a reasonable chance that nee SoBs could turn out just fine.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The problem is that their supporters are very, very few, and they don't buy much stuff.
You'd be surprised, then. A lot of people say they'd pick up some Sisters were they to become available, and their ebook codex seemed to sell pretty well on iBooks. There is some notable interest there.
insaniak wrote: There have been several comments made over the years to the effect that the studio has wanted to do more with them, but have had to fight just to keep them in the game because the accountants didn't consider them a viable line.
Could I get a source on that? All the comments I've seen from GW staff have pretty much put it down to issues with making models. Though, granted, they probably wouldn't be too forward about internal conflicts with management.
Psienesis wrote: I just envision this as an even worse-looking version of a Dreadknight... and that's bad.
Especially when we could have Church-Tank as an option.
For me, the ideal SoB superheavy are the giant, mobile cathedrals that sometimes show up in their fluff. Perfectly suited to the army's theme, utterly unique to them, and would probably look really nice as a model.
I don't pretend to understand why GW does what it does. They may be going off some sales metric from 20 years ago, or they might be going off the very real limitation of shelf space that a "new" army would require. However, I'm fairly certain that being an army of girls has nothing to do with why they don't get an update.
the_Armyman wrote:Dear GW,
Make a plastic Repressor. Give us back Zealots. Create a War of Faith list with penal legions, arco-flags, repentia, and Ecclesiarchy characters. Work within the existing wealth of material instead of pulling stuff out of your behind, trying to convince us how clever you are.
Love, All Sisters Players
Exalted.
Frozen Ocean wrote:WW2 was, shockingly, a different time, and even then women weren't simply ignored for being women - they took over necessary working roles after most of the men went to war.
Eh, if you really want to take him on in that argument, I'd simply point out how women were indeed fighting in WW2, instead of confirming historical revisionism.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Oh, and not only are they all male, they're all white, too. Yes, even the aliens are white men if applicable.
Indeed, this is noticeable as well. Likely not malice (I'd hope) - the designers in question may just go with themselves and their immediate buddies when thinking of a "default archetype for human(oid) characters". A saddening lack of awareness that humanity (and alien species in particular!) have an appearance that expands beyond their own individual self, if you will.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Why couldn't we have a cool character like Drazhar, but female? Why are there no female Inquisitors, Tech-Priests, Farseers, Phaerons, Commissars, Warp Spider Exarchs, tank commanders, Lords of Change, etc?
It gets funnier once you do a bit of research and notice that there were female Inquisitors and a female Commissar, hell we even had female Catachans at some point - but they are all OOP and/or (if SC rather than non-individual unit models) were written out of the game.
Sidebeef: And the one female SoBSC is not even a real Sister.
the_Armyman wrote:However, I'm fairly certain that being an army of girls has nothing to do with why they don't get an update.
I dunno, it could be the same thing that's going on in the video game industry, where publishers refuse a studio's ideas because of "established industry wisdom" maintaining that games with female protagonists don't sell.
Look at the target demographic of the tabletop; it's pretty much the same crowd.
Maybe SoB are to tabletop what female protagonists are to Assassin's Creed.
Lynata wrote: Eh, if you really want to take him on in that argument, I'd simply point out how women were indeed fighting in WW2, instead of confirming historical revisionism.
I gave a few pointer of women that could be inspiration for a WW2 movie.
insaniak wrote: That was the issue with turning them into plastic, not the problem with doing anything at all with them.
Their lack of plastics is what's largely holding them back. They can't really get a release. A big update, without new models. And that obviously has a knock-on effect.
But it would be incorrect to say that GW is doing "nothing at all" with them. Of course, we have e-codex, and a continued presence in the fluff. Yeah, it could be a lot more, but they still get some stuff.
As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
WWII had a lot of females on the front lines. Many of the top Russian and Finnish snipers were women.
As far as the rest of history, there were a lot of females in warfare. I can go through a long list of them, but I'll spare you.
Let's just say that I wrote the book about it.
http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Powerful-History-Minimum-Historian-ebook/dp/B00DTAGTLM
However, this isn't history. It's a fantasy game where anything is possible. For example, the fluff itself says that there are many women in the Imperial guard, yet so few female guard models exist. Why?
Same with Eldar. Why the sausage fest?
Why make Knights exclusively men? Female psykers? Tech priests? Female Tau?
That's one of the reasons I like (other games) so much is because women are much better represented.
Maybe SoB are to tabletop what female protagonists are to Assassin's Creed.
#2hard2render -> #2hard2sculpt
Well, I think that was true some time ago. Looking at the old GW female sculpts, how can I put this, they were horrible. And SoB has at least one of them, don't you dare forget about the black hole with legs.
But nowadays? With the Dark Eldar's Lelith, the Dark Elves, the female High Elf units and heroes, probably some of the Dark Eldar, well, I think GW has at least got the hang of it by now.
Honestly, you think GW would look at the fangasms over Raging Heroes [EDIT: or every anime ever] and realize an entire army of kickass females with big guns and severe psychosexual repression could be a license to print money.
SisterSydney wrote: Honestly, you think GW would look at the fangasms over Raging Heroes [EDIT: or every anime ever] and realize an entire army of kickass females with big guns and severe psychosexual repression could be a license to print money.
All I know is that Kingdom Death : Monster pulled a LOT more money than Raging Heroes did, that I backed KD:M, and that I've sent more money to KD:M than any other KS I've backed out of the gate.
GW should learn from KD:M being an even bigger success by sculpting their females with much more generous derriere's, and much skimpier clothing.
Follow the herd and learn the exact wrong lessons of why something was successful!
As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
WWII had a lot of females on the front lines. Many of the top Russian and Finnish snipers were women.
As far as the rest of history, there were a lot of females in warfare. I can go through a long list of them, but I'll spare you.
Let's just say that I wrote the book about it.
http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Powerful-History-Minimum-Historian-ebook/dp/B00DTAGTLM
However, this isn't history. It's a fantasy game where anything is possible. For example, the fluff itself says that there are many women in the Imperial guard, yet so few female guard models exist. Why?
Same with Eldar. Why the sausage fest?
Why make Knights exclusively men? Female psykers? Tech priests? Female Tau?
That's one of the reasons I like (other games) so much is because women are much better represented.
Your quote is totally broken! I'm credited with Veteran Sergeant's post, which is the opposite of what I said.
As for fighting women in WW2, it's a factor but it wasn't my point. Ultimately society was pretty sexist and unequal back then, and still is. It's hard for women to get into such positions, and when they do, it's even harder for them to get recognised for it. The Imperium doesn't have that issue at all. The Eldar and Necrons certainly don't. So where are all the ladies?
And that's the thing. Sure there have been a few female characters here and there, but they're gone, now. You'd think that we'd see more female representation in the 7th edition of the game, in 2014, than decades prior. Instead we have less.
Let's not even get started on the only black humans in the setting being "obligatory Predator reference Catachan" and "coal-black mutants with burning red eyes who used to be African stereotypes".
Lynata, it's exactly the same as Ubisoft. They said that they couldn't sculpt plastic sleeves. So it really is "2hard2sculpt".
As far as the female models thing, it's a wargame. Saying "why aren't there more girls" is like complaining "Why aren't there more female leads in WW2 movies?"
WWII had a lot of females on the front lines. Many of the top Russian and Finnish snipers were women.
As far as the rest of history, there were a lot of females in warfare. I can go through a long list of them, but I'll spare you.
Let's just say that I wrote the book about it.
http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Powerful-History-Minimum-Historian-ebook/dp/B00DTAGTLM
However, this isn't history. It's a fantasy game where anything is possible. For example, the fluff itself says that there are many women in the Imperial guard, yet so few female guard models exist. Why?
Same with Eldar. Why the sausage fest?
Why make Knights exclusively men? Female psykers? Tech priests? Female Tau?
That's one of the reasons I like (other games) so much is because women are much better represented.
Your quote is totally broken! I'm credited with Veteran Sergeant's post, which is the opposite of what I said.
As for fighting women in WW2, it's a factor but it wasn't my point. Ultimately society was pretty sexist and unequal back then, and still is. It's hard for women to get into such positions, and when they do, it's even harder for them to get recognised for it. The Imperium doesn't have that issue at all. The Eldar and Necrons certainly don't. So where are all the ladies?
And that's the thing. Sure there have been a few female characters here and there, but they're gone, now. You'd think that we'd see more female representation in the 7th edition of the game, in 2014, than decades prior. Instead we have less.
Let's not even get started on the only black humans in the setting being "obligatory Predator reference Catachan" and "coal-black mutants with burning red eyes who used to be African stereotypes".
Lynata, it's exactly the same as Ubisoft. They said that they couldn't sculpt plastic sleeves. So it really is "2hard2sculpt".
Let's just hope GW can do better than this:
Spoiler:
Gorgeous.
I know it's broken, but every time I try to fix it, nothing happens. I hate quoting. Sorry!
SisterSydney wrote: Honestly, you think GW would look at the fangasms over Raging Heroes [EDIT: or every anime ever] and realize an entire army of kickass females with big guns and severe psychosexual repression could be a license to print money.
The money pledged to the Raging Heroes Kickstarter represents 0.3% of Games Workshops' yearly revenue for their 13-14 FY. So minus production and stocking costs, not really printing a whole lot of money.
You need to begin to look at these things in the bigger picture. One of the most often overlooked realities (not opinions, realities) is that in business, everything comes with an economic opportunity cost. If you make one thing, the resources used to make that one thing cannot be used to make something else. So it's not a question of "What will simply turn a profit", but instead "what will turn the best profit. Consider the fact that the Eldar still don't have plastic Aspect Warriors (other than DA), and yet they've had 4 hardcopy codex books and 2 supplemental codex books. Why aren't GQ making plastic Howling Banshees or Fire Dragons? Given the fact that the Eldar are a flavor of the month army right now, it would be pretty much a license to print money, no? So obviously other products have taken precedence over plastic Aspect Warriors when Games Workshop evaluated the opportunity costs of developing new models. And if Aspect Warriors which have been in a hard copy codex for twenty five years are still Finecast, you can only imagine what is happening to an army that hasn't had its own codex since 2nd Edition (you didn't even need any Sisters to play Codex: Witch Hunters) and hasn't had a single new model release or even recast in over ten years.
Frozen Ocean wrote:
Other people with history with this topic are talking about it better than I could.
A lot of people talk. Very few of them make any sense.
Without phrasing this as an insult, just a simple fact, there are really two camps. There is a camp that allows sentimentality to color their judgement, to the point where they ignore all the facts and historical evidence, basing their arguments solely on what they want to happen. The other camp are the people with business experience who look at the historical actions of GW and relate them to experience which points to business behaviors consistent with certain models. I work in marketing. My company has a single brand that pushes more than twice the yearly revenue of Games Workshop, and across the whole company's portfolio of brands pushes many multiples. I can tell you that when people argue nonsense like "Oh, if Games Workshop just promoted them more" or use false equivalencies like "Look at the Dark Eldar!", I just kinda chuckle. Mostly because the arguments are constructed around what they have in common, and ignore what makes them entirely different case studies. Literally, the argument everywhere else is "Games Workshop is so greedy!" and with many Sisters of Battle fans it's suddenly "Games Workshop is too stupid to see they could make easy money!" So you can argue I'm wrong. But your argument needs to be based on intelligent reasoning and solid business logic rather than the same half-thought maxims that get bandied about.
Because there are very clear patterns to the history of the Sisters of Battle model line that tell a very clear story about Games Workshop's idea of where the Sisters of Battle sit in their growth-share matrix. No new products for ten years, but they remain available for sale at inflated cost, and their last two codex books have been low-cost production, zero carrying cost. This tells you that: Games Workshop doesn't care if the models sell, but they want to retain the IP. They don't see any growth potential in the Sisters that justifies significant investment. But, they've realized that they can sell digital products to the players they already have by releasing new rules in an ebook format. An ebook format which cost almost nothing to make (the fluff was already there from the WD codex but left out for space reasons, and the art is all recycled as well), and almost nothing to stock (it's electronic). Now that's printing money.
So you can want something. Heck, i think plastic Sisters would be cool. I love converting models. But I also think new plastic Squats and new plastic Genestealer Cult would be cool too. But I'm also extremely realistic about the chances of that happening.
I won't delve into the idea of historical examples of women in combat that have been provided. We've done that to death and it never goes anywhere positive and only ends up with hurt feelings.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I work in marketing. My company has a single brand that pushes more than twice the yearly revenue of Games Workshop, and across the whole company's portfolio of brands pushes many multiples.
I'm going to add this to the growing list of stuff you supposedly did, Mr. US Marine/writer/model-dater. You must lead an incredibly exciting life; it's a wonder you still find time to post on a forum about toy soldiers.
Also, I'm not sure how you think claiming an insult is a fact somehow stops making it an insult. That's ... not how debates between opposing viewpoints work, and this too does not add to your credibility.
It's almost as if you don't understand how calendars work.
Now, you know I've been playing since the early 90s. That makes me potentially over 30 years old. Now, if I did ten years in the Marines, it's almost as if there was time for me to go to college at some point, and to have left the Marines and done something else.
Just saying, lol. It's not my fault that you can't picture a world where somebody accomplishes things.
Aaaaand let's leave the issue of Veteran Sergeant's resume there before we all descend snarling into a flame war that gets the thread locked, please please please.
This is the internet. The more people claim they've done/have/are, the more sceptical I get. I consider this level of caution to be normal and warranted.
It's not that I doubt such people do exist - I do doubt, however, that they would frequent dakka, and that they would follow your behavioural pattern, both in regards to dealing with other people as well as what looks like a need to flaunt their supposed accomplishments. It's just ... too weird a combination, and an insistence on non-verifiable personal experience as a sort of "trump card" is quite simply too commonly a tool used in lieu of better arguments.
Not that I would disagree with all of them, as occasionally you do provide what I regard as valid points, and ironically enough we are of one opinion when it comes to assessing GW's stance in regards to the SoB product line. But the way you sometimes convey those arguments is ... well, shall we say "tempting interference", which I suppose you are fully aware of, given that you are already on record for stating that you enjoy to deliberately taunt SoB players. If you'd just step down from that high horse and dial it back a little, and accept that on this forum we are all equally unimportant, ...
I consider any expectations regarding Games Workshop utilising the potential of this faction to be wishful thinking, as such a step would require too much a deviation from what I'd deem their traditional approach to handling their IP. But there's no need to rub it into their fans' faces with a condescending tone. They've certainly deserved better, and in the end, we should be united at least in appreciation of a common hobby. Though now I actually am a bit curious how you would expect the 40k IP as a whole to develop if GW kept their current course and their focus on Space Marines. I know they have and probably always will be their biggest seller, but do you really think this is the right thing to do, given long-term effects?
(okay, that veered off into the "does 40k need more armies" topic a little)
I think he just made a forum search to find out quotes about what he remembered you saying. I remembered you saying all those things too. Does that make a me creeper?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: or use false equivalencies like "Look at the Dark Eldar!", I just kinda chuckle. Mostly because the arguments are constructed around what they have in common, and ignore what makes them entirely different case studies. Literally, the argument everywhere else is "Games Workshop is so greedy!" and with many Sisters of Battle fans it's suddenly "Games Workshop is too stupid to see they could make easy money!" So you can argue I'm wrong. But your argument needs to be based on intelligent reasoning and solid business logic rather than the same half-thought maxims that get bandied about.
Leaving the issue of internet credentials aside, you haven't actually given a reason why Sisters of Battle are so drastically different from Dark Eldar, from a sales perspective. Unless you're arguing that Dark Eldar were actually popular enough, before they got their big update, with their outdated models and rules, that GW knew that they were a guaranteed money maker, which simply isn't true. Heck, a lot of people gave a big "meh" even after they first heard that DE were getting updated. It wasn't until they SAW THE PRODUCT that people realized the update was legit and got excited about it. So why is it a false equivalency? You can't say they're entirely different "case studies" with out pointing out why they're different, and expect us to just take you at your word. If anything, the SoBs require less of an investment, since their vehicles don't need to be updated and there are fewer models overall to convert to plastic.
And I don't think GW is too stupid to see they could make easy money. I think GW has grown so complacent and completely averse to taking any kind of risks with their business that they're going to keep taking the "safe" road of price hikes and dataslates until they either force themselves out of business or realize they're about to go out of business and drastically change their business model. Plastic SoBs do represent a potential moneymaker, but also require a fair amount of money and effort invested in them to make it work, hence they're a risk, hence GW won't give them a proper update.
That sounds sadly plausible. A friend of mine who has more business sense than I do (not saying much) has told me GW is a perfect model of a company going down a dead end road: instead of taking risks and trying to expand their customer base, they're content to raise prices and try to get more juice out of a shrinking customer base.... which responds by shrinking a little further, provoking GW to squeeze a little harder, rinse and repeat until no one's left.
Does that sound about right to the more knowledgeable people on this thread?
SisterSydney wrote: That sounds sadly plausible. A friend of mine who has more business sense than I do (not saying much) has told me GW is a perfect model of a company going down a dead end road: instead of taking risks and trying to expand their customer base, they're content to raise prices and try to get more juice out of a shrinking customer base.... which responds by shrinking a little further, provoking GW to squeeze a little harder, rinse and repeat until no one's left.
Does that sound about right to the more knowledgeable people on this thread?
One can't say that is the case unequivocally, but it is very, very easy to make the facts fit that particular theory.
I've often stated my belief that GW are risk averse, they don't resculpt kits/models, even when the fans/customers seem to passionately want it when they can release something new which doesn't carry the risk of people seeing it and saying "meh, I'll stick with the one I've already got."
The only time we've seen re-releases has been to transition to a different material (which is more to do with what works for GW, I suspect any preference from the customers is coincidental.)
I think the only exception to that recently has been the SMTac squad, which as their biggest seller bar none, carries no risk in recouping the development costs.
To be fair, if I were Lynata, I'd be obsessed with me too. I mean, after all, since he/she's been stalking all my posts, then he/she knows I'm well-spoken, intelligent, a pretty fit guy that lives right by the beach and is a former Marine and I drive a Corvette (all these pics have been posted here before). I'd have a crush on me too. Heck. I already kinda do. Here's one of the ladyfriends who was around for a while when I was still a Marine, with her face blacked out because it wouldn't be polite to post her picture here, lol. And mine because, well, I think Lynata already has enough stuff for the VS shrine.
As far as "haven't actually given a reason why Sisters of Battle are so drastically different from Dark Eldar, well, I haven't done it in this thread because that's a waste of typing given the prevailing mindset that never changes. But I've explained it in detail before. I'm sure Lynata can link you to it. I'm not here to give Intro to Marketing for Dakka, because most of the replies are defiant (but substanceless) naysays, and more of the aforementioned refusal to accept facts and business logic (notice I posted the link to the growth-share matrix, a first semester marketing topic, I might add, and nobody's even addressed the idea). But the gist of it is that GW knew there was demand potential for Dark Eldar, it was only their subpar models and rules that were holding them back. Dark Eldar only came into existence because players had demanded them, and Chaos Eldar conversions had been commonplace. Dark Eldar also sold really well upon their initial, before people realized they were crappy. Thus GW had a reasonable expectation that if the model line was revamped, there was (that magic word) growth potential.
Again, this isn't about complacency. It's about basic economics. While there's a point that GW has made bad business moves, it's entirely tangential to the idea of plastic Sisters and risk aversion. What you're describing isn't a "risk". You take a "risk" on a radical product that you're not sure might work or not. Logancart was a risk, lol. Throwing more money a product line that has failed to meet whatever goals it had set for it twice already isn't a "risk". A business puts its resources towards what will return the best profitability, not just simple profitability. They may make mistakes along the way, and GW definitely has (which is a different story altogether). Not revamping the SoB isn't one of those mistakes. That model line was just a casualty of the evolving 40K product line that no longer had room for a pet/dog project.
Azreal13 wrote:I've often stated my belief that GW are risk averse, they don't resculpt kits/models, even when the fans/customers seem to passionately want it when they can release something new which doesn't carry the risk of people seeing it and saying "meh, I'll stick with the one I've already got."
That actually makes a lot of sense, too. Personally, I find their new "Militarum Tempestus" quite lame to the original Storm Trooper minis, and their oversized snowmobile does not help either. Likewise, I like the old DE and 'crons more than the new ones. It's hard to put my finger on it, but I feel like there is a subtle shift in artistic direction at work that slowly pushes the various armies more towards an even heavier focus on what used to be just an underlying theme. It's like ... a mini with too thick a coat of paint. It feels too crude, too obvious, and too simplified, slowly eroding the traces of "fantastic realism" that kept a semblance of seriousness in the design, and replacing the much-vaunted grim darkness of the 41st millennium with a comic book universe full of skulls and spikes. Yes, even more skulls and spikes.
Certain GK and Space Wolf models suggest that this approach has also carried on to entirely new releases for existing armies.
I'm rather conservative when it comes to settings I've grown to enjoy the way they were as I first experienced them, which is one of the reasons of why (in addition to occasional, veiled rants regarding third party fluff) I'm cautioning against a revamp of the existing SoB minis, instead advocating the continued use of the metal minis - if only they'd be sold at a price comparable to IG metals.
I suppose there is a chance I'm being overly negative here, but then again, as per the Kübler-Ross model aka the Five Stages of Grief, it could just be that I've been waiting too long for GW to disprove my fears. I kind of envy and pity those who still manage to keep the faith, but ultimately I just found it easier to dial back my involvement/commitment and look for alternatives. Always maintaining fond memories and occasionally discussing them, though, or providing input if someone is interested in any of the sources on background information I've collected over the years.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I mean, after all, since he/she's been stalking all my posts
Heh, I wouldn't exactly call it "stalking" - the Hybrid Son had guessed correctly. Even with my scrambled, disjointed memory I noticed a pattern in your posts throughout various SoB threads which I found ... suspicious, so some day two or three years ago when you sounded particularly condescending, I sat down and used a combination of dakka's search engine and google to look up and archive these gems in an attempt to make a notepad-list of your various claims to fame and experience.
It was a childish and petty thing to do; but then again, this is dakka, and as you know we all have our silly moments on this forum.
Lynata wrote: This is the internet. The more people claim they've done/have/are, the more sceptical I get. I consider this level of caution to be normal and warranted.
40k is an expensive hobby. Why wouldn't people with good income and fair amounts of leisure time be on Dakka?
Also, referencing Kubler-Ross suggests that Sisters will have been Squatted, versus still being on life support... Do we want GW to pull the plug?
SisterSydney wrote: Honestly, you think GW would look at the fangasms over Raging Heroes [EDIT: or every anime ever] and realize an entire army of kickass females with big guns and severe psychosexual repression could be a license to print money.
The money pledged to the Raging Heroes Kickstarter represents 0.3% of Games Workshops' yearly revenue for their 13-14 FY. So minus production and stocking costs, not really printing a whole lot of money.
.....
Because there are very clear patterns to the history of the Sisters of Battle model line that tell a very clear story about Games Workshop's idea of where the Sisters of Battle sit in their growth-share matrix. No new products for ten years, but they remain available for sale at inflated cost, and their last two codex books have been low-cost production, zero carrying cost. This tells you that: Games Workshop doesn't care if the models sell, but they want to retain the IP. They don't see any growth potential in the Sisters that justifies significant investment. But, they've realized that they can sell digital products to the players they already have by releasing new rules in an ebook format. An ebook format which cost almost nothing to make (the fluff was already there from the WD codex but left out for space reasons, and the art is all recycled as well), and almost nothing to stock (it's electronic). Now that's printing money.
...
I finally read the article about "Growth-Share Matrices." Interesting -- especially the part about how the model can be misapplied to certain markets. I am NOT a business person, but from my knowledge of geek culture, I'd guess the post -Buffy, post-Firefly/Serenity, post-American embrace of anime, post-Lara Croft/Bayonetta/etc., post-Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, etc. ad infinitum gaming community would be a lot more receptive to "hot girls with guns" that it was the last time GW tried new Sisters models. You might even get some more female players and expand the market, not just market share. Based on that admittedly highly subjective, qualitative, and unprofessional analysis, I think GW is under-estimating the growth potential in the Sisters line. I may be wrong.
JohnHwangDD wrote:40k is an expensive hobby. Why wouldn't people with good income and fair amounts of leisure time be on Dakka?
Oh, I didn't mean disposable income, but 40k is also a very geeky hobby, so I just don't expect us to attract the sort of people he tries to make himself sound like - and even if we do, I'd expect them to behave .. differently.
Now, of course neither of us knows what the other actually does, so I could be totally wrong here, but imho it's still a pretty silly thing to claim some sort of authority because of something they're inherently unable to prove, and expect everyone to believe it just like that, as if nobody would lie on the internet. It just ... adds nothing to a debate. I could just as well claim that actually I'm Gav Thorpe.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, referencing Kubler-Ross suggests that Sisters will have been Squatted, versus still being on life support... Do we want GW to pull the plug?
The answer to this will probably depend heavily on one's individual situation, so I'm not sure there can be a "we" as our situations will be different. For me, personally, I do not see much of a difference between this sort of life support and actually being squatted - right now, it just feels as if the entire army floats in a sort of limbo, neither dead nor alive, and the "life support" merely prolongs a suffering and makes it harder to let go of something that will never again be as good as it used to be.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are still players who genuinely enjoy actively playing this army, in spite of the hardships, simply because they're an established player in their local club/community, and I wouldn't want to see them lose the sort of official backing that their army still has. Although GW would probably tell SoB players they could just use Codex Space Marines to field them, similarly to how they told Squat players to field them as IG.
It's a tricky situation where nobody is really happy, and whatever you do will make it worse for one party. And the only one who could improve their situation doesn't seem to have any interest in doing so.
To expand on the "life support" metaphor, as an army, the SoB are less the comatose patient on a hospital bed waiting for someone to "pull the plug", but more like a poor dog suffering from a painful illness, where it'd be the humane thing to just put them down, but their owner - in this case referring more to the players rather than GW - loves them so much that they cannot bring themselves to do it.
SisterSydney wrote:You might even get some more female players and expand the market, not just market share. Based on that admittedly highly subjective, qualitative, and unprofessional analysis, I think GW is under-estimating the growth potential in the Sisters line. I may be wrong.
But Sister Sydney, didn't you learn from the video game publishers that games with female protagonists don't sell?!
I remember we had a Street Fighter II (or something) arcade machine in our dorm rec room. My roommate was always short of change to play, and I'd always give him some quarters on the condition that he played only female characters.
I wasn't watching or anything -- let alone playing against him, I am so terrible at any game requiring coordination it is hilarious/a medical condition-- I just wanted to know that he was kicking ass with a female character.
Chun Li definitely kicks ass in the hands of someone who can pull off her moves. Especially in SSFII Turbo edition... she was Warp Factor 5 fast.
The RH link to the TGG is not the army that most want for their SoB. Those of us on the RH kick are talking about their planned Order of Eternal Mercy, which currently exists only in concept art, found here:
Also keep in mind that just because GW said (years ago) that they had a problem stopping them doesn't mean that they do now (or even did at the time). A lot of stuff gets designed and then sat on until 'the right moment'. With the move to digital sculpting, there's less chance of a green being spotted by (less and less) rumour sources.
The dark eldar bomber had to be shelved because it was too fiddly.... and here it is. We are not doing space hulk. Okay, we did space hulk but we'll never do it again.
JohnHwangDD wrote:40k is an expensive hobby. Why wouldn't people with good income and fair amounts of leisure time be on Dakka?
Oh, I didn't mean disposable income, but 40k is also a very geeky hobby, so I just don't expect us to attract the sort of people he tries to make himself sound like - and even if we do, I'd expect them to behave .. differently.
Now, of course neither of us knows what the other actually does, so I could be totally wrong here, but imho it's still a pretty silly thing to claim some sort of authority because of something they're inherently unable to prove, and expect everyone to believe it just like that, as if nobody would lie on the internet. It just ... adds nothing to a debate. I could just as well claim that actually I'm Gav Thorpe.
OK, I guess. Tho I think having expectations kinda sets things up badly - it's the Interwebs, after all.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, referencing Kubler-Ross suggests that Sisters will have been Squatted, versus still being on life support... Do we want GW to pull the plug?
The answer to this will probably depend heavily on one's individual situation, so I'm not sure there can be a "we" as our situations will be different. For me, personally, I do not see much of a difference between this sort of life support and actually being squatted - right now, it just feels as if the entire army floats in a sort of limbo, neither dead nor alive, and the "life support" merely prolongs a suffering and makes it harder to let go of something that will never again be as good as it used to be.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are still players who genuinely enjoy actively playing this army, in spite of the hardships, simply because they're an established player in their local club/community, and I wouldn't want to see them lose the sort of official backing that their army still has. Although GW would probably tell SoB players they could just use Codex Space Marines to field them, similarly to how they told Squat players to field them as IG.
It's a tricky situation where nobody is really happy, and whatever you do will make it worse for one party. And the only one who could improve their situation doesn't seem to have any interest in doing so.
To expand on the "life support" metaphor, as an army, the SoB are less the comatose patient on a hospital bed waiting for someone to "pull the plug", but more like a poor dog suffering from a painful illness, where it'd be the humane thing to just put them down, but their owner - in this case referring more to the players rather than GW - loves them so much that they cannot bring themselves to do it.
IMO, there is a very big difference between being on life support (Sisters) and being dead (Squats, Dogs of War). Having an official Army Book / Codex that gets occasional rules tweaks and updates is A Very Good Thing (tm).
Sisters would play as StormTroopers, not Space Marines. They're just girls in armor. Not superhumans. And their armor really doesn't look that heavy. T3 Sv4+ is a good fit.
I agree that Sisters are hard to expand out into a full army, what with the need for Flyers and Titans in 7E, along with alternate Troops (Frateris) and so forth.
IMO, it's better to still have the Sisters around as an active part of the game universe. I would be sad if Sisters got Squatted.
I would not hold out hope for a resurgence in the Sister's product line from GW. If it happens, well, that's cool, but I don't see it happening...
With things being what they are right now, and the trends of the game over the last several years being what they are, we can basically see the two choices that are open to GW, in the face of shrinking market share, falling revenues and plummeting sales...
One, they continue exactly as they have been, with the release schedule that they have been following, and we might see the occasional Codex update for the Sisters, with a new release of a single model-type only when the mold for the currently-metal-only line breaks.
This will continue until GW files for bankruptcy and the IP is sold to someone else.
Or, GW decides to gamble on the future and does a Dark Eldar/Necron resurgence/re-release for them. This will cost an initial outlay of money (all the development and production costs), and present a shot in the arm in terms of sales and income from the fanbase (let us not fool ourselves, a new Sisters release is not going to suddenly draw thousands and thousands of new players to the game).... and the Sisters will then be probably one of the last armies that ever sees a major overhaul from GW before bankruptcy forces GW to sell the IP.
The third option is that GW realizes that the business practices of the last decade-plus have not been working and they need to seriously right the ship, and thus take actual drastic measures, like market research, to figure out what to do... but I have no faith in that ever actually happening.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I agree that Sisters are hard to expand out into a full army, what with the need for Flyers and Titans in 7E, along with alternate Troops (Frateris) and so forth....
Done it. Give me a few days and I'll have 17-ish new units all in one place, but for now:
I'm eager for comment on all of these. And of course mine is not the only homebrew 'dex out there. Where I do seem to be unusual is that I take the digidex as a good thing and simply add to it rather than try to replace it.
Of course none of this addresses whether GW makes actual new models or not. But fleshing out the Sisters into a full army, one as diverse as the Marines or the Imperial Guard, is definitely doable.
Creating the units and rules is relatively trivial. Heck, I can do that pretty easily.
Creating the models is harder, but clearly doable by GW's sculptors.
Getting the models produced and into players' hands is the real sticking point. That's an uphill marketing challenge.
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
I can see it now =D! 3 Kits, One makes your standard sisters with specail/heavy weapons and command squad ala the Tempestus Scions. One kit makes ,the Seraphim and a new unit, And the final kit makes Repntas or DeathCult Assasins, oh and a new plastic, Penitent Engine =D
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then you roll that into an inquisition release, giving us an acroflai servitor dual kit, Highly customizable inquistor kit($50 for a super nice sculpt with tons of options to make him look super unique make it compatable with the Cannones model so you can make a female inquisitor) Then you got all your weirdvyne psykers/mystics ina plastic box and tie it all together with an Inquisition Hardback codex and bam! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEH!
JohnHwangDD wrote: Creating the units and rules is relatively trivial. Heck, I can do that pretty easily.
Creating the models is harder, but clearly doable by GW's sculptors.
Getting the models produced and into players' hands is the real sticking point. That's an uphill marketing challenge.
To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
Oh man that would be super sweet It would be like combing everything I love into one codex....well expect Orks. Hmmm Codex Supplement Blood Axe Mercenaries
JohnHwangDD wrote: To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.
You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....
JohnHwangDD wrote: To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.
You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....
The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.
Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.
Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.
I confess to being a Sisters fanatic with no business sense. Savvier folks than me have argued back and forth over whether new Sisters models make sense for GW as a business proposition; all I can say is that pop culture is way, way more receptive to "kickass girls with guns" than it was the last time GW tried making these models.
As for Arbites, I'd love to see them get their own minidex, and hive gangers, etc could come out as dataslates -- the move to digital releases has given GW a lot more options for how to put out new rules (although obviously the models are the big money issue).
JohnHwangDD wrote: To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.
You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....
The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.
Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.
Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.
'
They have "steeply limited appeal" because the models have "steeply limited availability" and their Codex does not exist in any physical format. To buy Sisters, you have to know the Sisters exist, and then be willing to pay two to four times the money for an equivalent-sized army of just about any other faction.
There's this thing called "the Web". Maybe you've heard of it? It makes shopping at a store quaint and old-fashioned.
I personally haven't bought anything of significance at retail from a game store in years. I have bought things at various clearance, BF, and GOOB sales. Love those GOOB sales!
The only reason I've ever bought at a GW store was for for their "FREE" shipping site-to-store for bitz and special orders.
And gaming at a store? Please. When they have food and beverages on site, serving beer, then I'll reconsider.
Yes, and their web-only presence again contributes to the "steeply limited availability" that I mentioned previously. So if you're looking to get into the game of 40K, you have to know that it's owned by Games Workshop, that they have a website, and that their Nuns-With-Guns army is called the Adepta Sororitas on their website. There's not even a current book you can browse at a store to get a glimpse of the Army.
I can walk into any store that carries GW products and find, without a problem, stuff for Space Marines, stuff for Chaos Space Marines, stuff for Tau and stuff for Eldar. Necrons is sometimes hit-or-miss. IG is sometimes (surprisingly) hit-or-miss. Dark Eldar are also sometimes hit-or-miss, but usually (in the area I live), anything I can't find at one store is readily available at another.
SoB? Never there at all. Not even a blister of 3 girls in metal.
I never go into a brick-and-mortar store myself -- but how often is a Sisters model the big featured item on the GW site? Probably never because there are never any new ones.
Yeah, the low-risk, low-reward business model is to just keep milking the models and customers they have, but there's so much potential to do more.
JohnHwangDD wrote: To my mind, GW was headed down the right track with Witch Hunters, as a semi-elite S3 T3 army. Good variety of stuff, lots of options, multiple builds. Combine Sisters, Arbites, PDF, Gangers, and Frateris together with Inquisition Stormtroopers / Warriors for an Imperial Irregulars Codex. Allow units of 20 Servitors / Arco-Flagellants. And so on. Put enough choices into that book, and give players enough options, and it starts to become compelling. Oh, well...
I think Sisters deserve to be a full army on their own, though. (And it's doable without too many new models: my homebrews rely mainly on things like converted Vendettas, Predators, and Baneblades; you'd mostly need new bitz). I much prefer the current system where they have their own 'dex but liberal allies rules make it easy to blend in Inquisition. Arbites would be good as at least a dataslate, too -- though Matt Forish has done a great full-scale fandex for them.
You can even get your Ork mercs in, sort of, as Desperate Allies....
The problem is that Sisters, as a stand-alone army, has been demonstrated non-viable in the marketplace due to steeply limited appeal. That is NOT GW's fault. Same with Arbites. And PDF. And Gangers. And Inquisition Stormies. But they have the commonality of all being present in numbers on any Imperial world, representing the armed populace that has to hold out together until larger, professional forces arrive. Unifying all of the 2E/3E-era metals under a single banner allows players to dig out their goodies and play.
Rather than de-emphasizing Sisters as part of a Imperial Irregulars Codex containing *several* viable builds (all-Sisters, all-Arbites, all-PDF, all-Gangers, all-Stormies, etc.), wherein Sisters represent "the best of the rest", WH still pushed Sisters as the only really semi-viable build.
Anyhow, I get that you're a Sisters player, and how GW's pandering to Sisters players, only, meets your needs. The problem is that catering only to that tiny sliver of players means the niche will never expand, and it won't leverage the other niches (Arbites, Necromunda Gangers, etc.) to create something larger than the individual pieces. In that context, the current situation is about as good as it will ever be.
'
They have "steeply limited appeal" because the models have "steeply limited availability" and their Codex does not exist in any physical format. To buy Sisters, you have to know the Sisters exist, and then be willing to pay two to four times the money for an equivalent-sized army of just about any other faction.
SoB are essentaly in a Catch 22 situation. As another said GW is still holding onto the ip and if they want SoB to sell more they have to give them attention (ie plastic SoB box kits), but GW doesn't want to take the risk for development and there for SoB are stuck where they are.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK, whatever dude. Clearly this store-centric thing is important to you. Fine, you win.
It's not just the store thing. Even on the website, a single Battle Sister Squad of 10 models is $80 US, while a 10-man Tac Squad is $40... and with Marines, you get roughly a bajillion times the options for troops, vehicles and other Stuff than you get with the Sisters. It's simply not a well-marketed, well-supported product line. All of these things are entirely GW's fault, not the playerbase's.
No it's not, it's fething power armor, give it the fuckig 3+ save.
No, not really. Holding on to the straw of Sisters deserving a 3+ save is about as stupid as trying to hold on to Terminators having a 3+ save on 2d6. It's an archaic relic that makes no sense in game. And it's not like GW can't fix things - we saw that with the change to the Necrons WBB. Along with the additions and revisions to "Faith" (OMG, what a disaster).
Let's get real, Sisters wear MMORPG "Armor". They could be running around completely fething naked and have whatever fething armor rating GW wants, exactly how a stained wife-beater gives a Catachan the same 5+ save as a Cadian with an actual chest protector.
However, if one pretends that a 3+ really is appropriate for superhuman monsters wearing inch-thick ceramite armor, then the in-universe realities of helmetless human girls having the same level of armor protection from a layer of patent leather is pure fething nonsense. Compare Sisters with Arbites, Imperial Stormtroopers, Kasrkin & new Stormtroopers - those guys all wear heavier armor than the Sisters, but only get a 4+? Again, pure fething nonsense.
Rationalize the Sisters from a clean sheet with Terminators at 2+, Marines at 3+, Cadians at 5+, and Sisters splitting the difference at 4+, like Arbites and Stormtroopers. That's where Sisters should be. And then Sisters can get a points break, so people can field even more of them, which is what GW really wants.
Let's get real, Sisters wear MMORPG "Armor". They could be running around completely fething naked and have whatever fething armor rating GW wants, exactly how a stained wife-beater gives a Catachan the same 5+ save as a Cadian with an actual chest protector.
However, if one pretends that a 3+ really is appropriate for superhuman monsters wearing inch-thick ceramite armor, then the in-universe realities of helmetless human girls having the same level of armor protection from a layer of patent leather is pure fething nonsense. Compare Sisters with Arbites, Imperial Stormtroopers, Kasrkin & new Stormtroopers - those guys all wear heavier armor than the Sisters, but only get a 4+? Again, pure fething nonsense.
You... do know that power armor is heavier armor than carapace, right? Sisters wear Power Armor, Arbites and Stormtroopers wear Carapace.
Space Marine PA is "inches thick"... but hollow. The Armor plates contain all kinds of sub-systems and bits that provide all the extra functions that their armor has that Sororitas armor does not... and not a single one of these sub-systems has anything to do with raw protective qualities.
It is noted that the Sororitats Power Armor provides identical protection as that worn by the Astartes, it just lacks a lot of the extra systems, as such are not generally needed by the Sisters.
The corset is just the detailing of the armor, it's not actually a leather corset (alternately, it's a leather corset placed over the actual ceramite breastplate, I've seen it modeled that way, too.)
Why not? It's not like Sisters are some sort of cash cow that needs to be protected. It's not like a minor stat change or two would cause any measurable drop in GW profits or revenue.
Chaos sacred numbers are older than that, and they got changed just because. Power weapons got a major overhaul not that long ago. Lots of stuff changes. That's the nature of the game.
Heck, GW could write tomorrow that the Grey Knights ritually sacrifice all of the remaining Sisters for their blood, and that'd be that.
Well, the major factions are all done now, except Necrons, which pretty much everyone expects early 2015. And, there were a lot of the supplements, plus 2014 was good to campaign types.
So I don't see why there wouldn't be some Sisters love next year
It would certainly be an easier way to get some cash out of players than to say, start up 8th edition
Huh? 7th had to have been a strong cash grab for GW. If GW is really hot for people's wallets, we'll see 8th edition in 2016.
Same thing with the push for high dollar "must have" kits like Knights.
Still, if Sisters are on the plate for next year, with new plastics, that'd be great. And it's not like GW can't do it...
Heck, they could charge $60 for 10, and it'd be better.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, not really. Holding on to the straw of Sisters deserving a 3+ save is [...] an archaic relic that makes no sense in game.
False. It's body-encompassing, hermetically sealed, military-grade power armor. Ergo, it makes perfect sense for it to have a 3+ save.
Your bizarre retcons are what lacks sense, you're kind of making stuff up that doesn't fit either the lore OR the game in order to justify the proposed nerf you want.
Psienesis wrote:Space Marine PA is "inches thick"... but hollow.
Well, "up to an inch", at least last time a Marine codex described it in that level of detail.
/nitpick
Aside from the space occupied by internal subsystems as you mentioned, I noticed a lot of people forgetting just how big Space Marines actually are. As if there'd be some normal dude in the suit, and the rest was all armour. People need to make up their minds.
Psienesis wrote:(alternately, it's a leather corset placed over the actual ceramite breastplate, I've seen it modeled that way, too.)
Yeah, if you look closely at the Repentia Mistress, she actually has the PA without the "corset" dust cover, so you can see the exposed lamellar below - quite similar to that one piece of artwork in the 3E codex. And then there's the Canoness who wears a metal plackart above the lamellar instead.
In fairness, it always looked more like power-lingerie with a corset. But divorce the issue from the fluff for a minute - necron warriors used to have 3+ and got bumped down to 4+, so it could happen. Whatever fluff contradicts this possibility can be easily retconned.
All I wish for Sisters in 2015 is new stuff. No more status quo books that are put out to remove things from a shrinking model line or a lack of new stuff.
I'm not asking for it to be the best thing ever or even for it to hold all the old lore true. At this point if they needed to retcon the army and revamp them visually to make the kits work better I can live with that.
What I can't stand though is them just in this slowly decaying orbit around the drain. Either pull the plug or put something out already GW.
Hell you just did a bunch of Nid releases, you could easily do the same for Sisters with some new options (like maybe a Rhino with an uparmored front so it has AV12, TL Avenger Mega Bolter and the Fast rule and call it the the Purifier or something).
At least that. At least some small options trickled in to give that army some new toys would be something you could already be doing.
Just no more waiting already.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Torga_DW wrote: In fairness, it always looked more like power-lingerie with a corset. But divorce the issue from the fluff for a minute - necron warriors used to have 3+ and got bumped down to 4+, so it could happen. Whatever fluff contradicts this possibility can be easily retconned.
Necron Immortals still have a 3+ though. It just balanced the Warriors out better and justified making them cheaper points wise.
ClockworkZion wrote: At least that. At least some small options trickled in to give that army some new toys would be something you could already be doing.
Just no more waiting already.
Do not count on it. Find something else to be excited for. Find something else to wait for. Then, if some sisters get release, nice surprise. If not, and that is very, very, very likely, you will not get disappointed.
I got myself into waiting for Horde trollbloods with guns. I got an awesome character warbeast that is special issue with my warcaster and fit the theme of “Trolls with guns, military cap, cigars and an attitude” just perfectly. If I had stayed with Sisters, I would have had… some fluff references and new illustrations in Shield of Baal?
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a very small number of people who very much love Sisters. The problem is that their supporters are very, very few, and they don't buy much stuff.
I'd buy more Sisters stuff, but there's really very little... well, almost nothing left that I would use but don't already have.
I have a Command Squad, two Canonesses, a Battle Conclave, a Preacher, a Confessor, two Penitent Engines, two Exorcists, three Rhino chassis capable of being either Rhinos or Immolators, a big squad of Repentia (from when they could come in squads of 20), 10 Seraphim, and enough Superiors, special and heavy weapons to outfit 4 10-woman squads with a variety of loadouts and enough left over to make a Retributor Squad. I don't use Flyers in my games, so adding some air support from Forge World is out.
For a few years, I was expanding my Sisters army rather quickly. Then I got my first Exorcist, built it, and came up empty when trying to think of what to get next. Since then, the only additions to my Sisters have been a custom-made Banner Bearer (not that Simulacrum that GW relabeled as a Banner Bearer), a second Exorcist, and a customized Jacobus stand-in. Because really, there's nothing left to get that wouldn't just be "because I felt like spending money."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: ... history tells us that GW conveniently forgets the faction exists. Sometimes for a decade at a time.
That can't be true. Someone has to make the decision to take down the miniatures from the webstore a few at a time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's OK. It's not like GW reads this and takes business direction from the scions and luminaries on Dakka, such as ourselves.
BTW, looking waay back, I seem to recall Charlies Angels on TV, and Foxy Brown in the theatres. "kickass girls with guns", indeed.
No, no, they definitely have people reading this forum.
A couple of years ago, I got a WD in the mail a few days early. Took some photos once I realized I had early info I could share with people, uploaded the photos to Photobucket, posted them here and nowhere else.
Then after an hour or two of trying to get better photos with a craptastic camera in the dark of night (lamps only go so far) and slowly getting the message pounded into me by fellow forumgoers that even though I know for an absolute fact that something is true because I hold it in my hands, it's still considered a "rumor" on the Internet and should be "taken with a mountain of salt", I went to bed.
Woke up the next morning and found a tasty treat in my e-mail - GW's lawyer team had sent a Cease and Desist order to get those photos taken off of Photobucket and had gotten it through within 3 hours of my posting those photos here.
ClockworkZion wrote: At least that. At least some small options trickled in to give that army some new toys would be something you could already be doing.
Just no more waiting already.
Do not count on it. Find something else to be excited for. Find something else to wait for. Then, if some sisters get release, nice surprise. If not, and that is very, very, very likely, you will not get disappointed.
I got myself into waiting for Horde trollbloods with guns. I got an awesome character warbeast that is special issue with my warcaster and fit the theme of “Trolls with guns, military cap, cigars and an attitude” just perfectly. If I had stayed with Sisters, I would have had… some fluff references and new illustrations in Shield of Baal?
I'm not counting on anything, I'm wishlisting on Sisters.
And right now I'm working on a Nid army in my free time. Hivefleet Kraken with a Space Hulk basing theme.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is a very small number of people who very much love Sisters. The problem is that their supporters are very, very few, and they don't buy much stuff.
I'd buy more Sisters stuff, but there's really very little... well, almost nothing left that I would use but don't already have.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's OK. It's not like GW reads this and takes business direction from the scions and luminaries on Dakka, such as ourselves.
No, no, they definitely have people reading this forum.
Woke up the next morning and found a tasty treat in my e-mail - GW's lawyer team had sent a Cease and Desist order to get those photos taken off of Photobucket and had gotten it through within 3 hours of my posting those photos here.
So yes, they read these forums.
Same, I've got a full Sisters Allies contingent (HQ, Elite, 2 Troops, Fast & Heavy), with loads of swap-in Heavy / Special weapons models. While I could add more Transports, there's no real incentive for that.
While GW scours fora for IP, my point was that they don't take business direction from Dakka (or anywhere else, for that matter). The lack of changes despite well over a decade of complaints shows this to be completely true. OTOH, stand up to them in court, and prove them wrong, and yeah, that gets their attention in a huge way.
With 2.5k of Sisters myself, I only find myself coming up short for Apoc games, so I stopped needing to buy more Sisters stuff.
I look forward to the day when that's not a problem anymore and I can actually expand my army and do new things with it, but for now I'll deal with what I've got.
Torga_DW wrote:In fairness, it always looked more like power-lingerie with a corset.
Are you referring to the models or the artworks? And if the latter, do you mean those by GW or others? As I noticed there can be quite a difference.
And sure, in theory you could retcon their fluff and make them less elite, but why would you want to mess with their image and turn the Sisters into Guardsmen+1? That niche is already occupied by Storm Troopers, methinks. Also, as much as GW seems to like to appear as if they have forgotten about this army's existence, in the past they have been pretty consistent as presenting them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", to quote the website. Of course it is not impossible that they re-think their stance on this subject, but at the same time, how likely is it, and what would it actually achieve?
Unless their goal would be to make them even more unpopular ... hm!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Do not count on it. Find something else to be excited for. Find something else to wait for. Then, if some sisters get release, nice surprise. If not, and that is very, very, very likely, you will not get disappointed.
Lynata wrote: Also, as much as GW seems to like to appear as if they have forgotten about this army's existence, in the past they have been pretty consistent as presenting them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", to quote the website.
“[…]Each of the Tyranid brood that scurried into the open was torn to pieces, shredded by more bolter fire than an entire company of Space Marines could hope to muster.[…]”
Shield of Baal: Leviathan.
I'm not trying to diss on the sisters of battle, i'm just saying (in my personal opinion) that the amount of cloth they have on their models makes it look like they're not wearing full power armour and hints at only a few key pieces.
Which means nothing, since it's cloth laid over the armor for ceremonial reasons, much like their robes. Or do you think that Dark Angels don't have as good armor because of the cloth on theirs?
Dark angels look like they're wearing robes over power armour. Like i said the sisters look like they're wearing cloth instead of power armour. No need to take it personally, i went out of my way to say it was just my personal opinion.
Their lack of plastics is what's largely holding them back. They can't really get a release. A big update, without new models. And that obviously has a knock-on effect.
