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I love Sisters and I love tanks -- of all sizes -- as I have stated heretofore, but I've learned a bit about unit design since I first posted homebrew Sororitas tanks back in October, so I decided it was time to MAKE DEM MOAR SHOOTIER, I mean to polish them up a bit. So, for your consideration, commentary, and criticism, I present
- The Vindicta, a Sororitas version of the Vindicator armed with an Avenger Bolt Cannon (yes, like on the Navy fighter).
- The Sororitas Predator, basically a Predator Infernus with a 6++ Save and additional weapons options.
- The Oriflamme Scout Tank, a more lightly armored Hellhound with Scout, which is pretty damned nasty.
- Plus some nasty new vehicle wargear: Holy Promethium is back (and looks a lot like Psyflame Ammo...) and then the Sisters get their own souped-up version of IG fire barrels, because FIRE.
[EDIT: And click here to jump to the revised Deliverer Assault Shrine, an open-topped, AV:14 battle bucket for both shooty and choppy Ecclesiarchal troops.]

[UPDATE: The final (?) versions of all these units -- and two dozen others -- are now in my Sororitas fandex/expandex]

(Those who read the earlier thread will notice I gave up trying to fight the Avenger Bolt Cannon into a turret and put it as a fixed forward-firing weapon instead, as Furyou Miko argued made more sense -- and borrowed some of Furyou's fluff as well. Also please note how utterly perfect the faux-Latin of "Vindicta" is....).

[EDIT: Trimmed down the Predator's excessive variety of weapons options as folks have advised. Still wrestling with Vindicta pricing -- and with the names "Vindicta" and "Oriflamme."]

New Sororitas Vehicle Equipment:

Fountains of Purifying Flame: 15 points


Holy Promethium: 10 points


*

Vindicta Assault Gun: 115 points

Background


Rules


Costing


*

Sororitas Predator: 100 points

Background


Rules


Costing


*

Oriflamme Scout Tank: 155 points

Background


Rules


Costing

My only questions are why the Predator's inferno cannon is an upgrade over the Inferno cannon and why melta cannon and magna-melta are both there. If I were you I'd pick one of Relic Predator or Hellhound and put just that tank's main guns on as an option instead of both, since you end up with redundancy.

Change the name of the sororitas Vindicta. We already have enough names based off of vindication.

How about The Sororitas Avenger, or Retributor, or some other form of vindication?

 SisterSydney wrote:

When Battle Sisters first saw Imperial Guard tank crews defending their vehicles with jury-rigged fire barrels, the Sisters sang hymns of joy -- and, being Sisters, proceeded to make an ever fierier version that pours blessed promethium from cunningly wrought gargoyles.

You know, i think they're not making gear themselves. I think, fluffwise, they have no engineers (correct me if i'm wrong). Sororitas do maintain gear themselves though. But i'm not sure if that's enough to produce new one. However, they can request gear easilly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Avenger bolt cannon - make it Heavy 6 (for aestetic reasons - cause you got 3, 6, 30-36 ) and range 30. And probably Gets Hot. Cause iirc avenger ammo is very unstable. And a small price drop also. Ap3 should cost stuff. And it's way more reliable than vindicator's large blast. Though has a more narrow role which compensates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make Oriflamme (sounds like cosmetics) Tank based on a rhino. 11-11-10. Make it cheaper. It's gona be a nice melta-death vehicle.

Thanks for the helpful comments. My thoughts?

AnomanderRake wrote:My only questions are why the Predator's inferno cannon is an upgrade over the Inferno cannon and why melta cannon and magna-melta are both there. If I were you I'd pick one of Relic Predator or Hellhound and put just that tank's main guns on as an option instead of both, since you end up with redundancy.

I went back and forth on whether that was too many options, and you may be right that it is. Since this is the Sisters' only turreted tank, though, I thought I'd err on the side of a fuller spread of options -- specifically:
Flamestorm cannon: shorter-ranged but stronger flame (Template AP:3)
Inferno cannon: longer-ranged but weaker flame (Torrent AP:4)
Magna-Melta: shorter-ranged but stronger melta (18" Large Blast)
Melta Cannon: longer-ranged but weaker melta (24" Small Blast)
But looking at those options, maybe there's really not enough difference to bother with.

koooaei wrote:Avenger bolt cannon - make it Heavy 6 (for aestetic reasons - cause you got 3, 6, 30-36 ) and range 30. And probably Gets Hot. Cause iirc avenger ammo is very unstable. And a small price drop also. Ap3 should cost stuff. And it's way more reliable than vindicator's large blast. Though has a more narrow role which compensates.

I'm pulling the stats straight from the Avenger Strike Fighter, which has 7 shots -- and yes, I too find the asymmetry maddening.

koooaei wrote:Make Oriflamme (sounds like cosmetics) Tank based on a rhino. 11-11-10. Make it cheaper. It's gona be a nice melta-death vehicle.

Weaker front armour might be a nice way to balance it being able to Scout such nasty weapons into someone's face or flank. I was thinking of it as a compromise between the Predator (13-11-10), the base Rhino (11-11-10), and the Hellhound (12-12-10), though.

Scipio Africanus wrote:Change the name of the sororitas Vindicta. We already have enough names based off of vindication....

But -- but -- but it's a feminine-sounding version "Vindicator" and a form of the Latin verb for "to avenge"!

Lots of interesting stuff - but may be worth waiting to see if 7th is any good and if so what rules changes are made?

ABC is Heavy 7 because it's half a Vulcan Megabolter, which is Heavy 15, rounded down.

I agree about the Oriflamme. Should be Rhino-based. Always have said that though. Since it scouts, side armour and front armour being equal makes sense and there's supposedly limits on how much plate you can put on the sides before it becomes too bulky to be wieldy. Give it Extra Armour for free instead of FAV12 maybe?

Sororitas Infernus probably can do without the Inferno Cannon and the Magna-Melta, especially since you have the Inferno Cannon on the Oriflamme... on which I agree with koooaei - it sounds like a cosmetics brand. It's supposed to be... goldfire? Something like that? (google: yay, I was right!).

Too french, I guess?

First time I've heard about Avenger ammo being unstable. It just uses insanely massive bolter rounds designed to be fired from a superheavy. Actually, that might make sense for the Vindicta - make it a Heavy Vehicle. It won't derive any benefit, but it puts it firmly into that defensive 'mobile turret' role. Maybe SA12 as well to make up for it?

 SisterSydney wrote:

But -- but -- but it's a feminine-sounding version "Vindicator" and a form of the Latin verb for "to avenge"!

I know, you know, but for godsake, Sydney, when you play a game where people jump down your throat for confusing a stalker with a hunter, you've gotta keep the names at least partially different.

Also, Vindicta is actually a real word, not just a "feminine" sounding version of vindicator - it's a rod or a wand.

A rod or wand that makes MEQ disappear!

The oriflamme -- from Latin aurea flamma -- is the early medieval battle standard of the French kings, predating Joan of Arc, who popularized the fleur-de-lys imagery that's associated with the Sisters. Maybe too subtle a reference?

Whats the point of making Holy Promethium the same as Psyflame Ammunition? What about Blessed Ammunition/Inferno Bolts A.K.A. Shred Bolter Rounds?

The Avenger Bolt Cannon (like the Exorcist Missile Launcer) is a namesake weapon and shouldn't be put on anything but the Avenger Strike Fighter.

The Inferno Cannon and Melta Cannon are too large to mount on a Rhino, they require a larger chassis.

In my own Sisters of Battle Codex I made the Sanctifier a Fast Rhino with Hurricane Bolters. It has the option to take an Avenger megabolter (Codex: Dark Angles). Even with the Addition of an Avenger Megabolter it comes out to 110 points. The Vindicta is overcosted, you undervalued the Demolisher Cannon Strength 10 AP2 Large Blast means it can take on almost anything, it'll chew through Terminators and can even take a Hull Point off a Land Raider. The Avenger Bolt Cannon can take on MEQ, but won't be very effective against vehicles or 2+ saves.

I also gave the Sisters a big tough Assault Vehicle the Crucifier and Crucifier Purgatorius. The Latter can take an Inferno Cannon, Melta Cannon, or Magnamelta.

I’m not sure I agree with the ABC being 20 points less then the DC. Sure, you won’t be removing TEQs from the table, but you will still erase MEQ wholesale. At range, so you don’t have the vindi’s issue of exposing it’s side armor. You are also going to be much better vs. MCs and flyers. I might bump the points up by 5, I think it’s pretty well balanced overall.

The pred is drowning in choices. I’d pick one flamer, and one melta option and call it a day.

1. Okay, two choices for the Predator it is, y'all have convinced me. I'll go for the same ones as on the original Infernus, the Flamestorm Cannon and Magna-Melta, emphasizing short-range firepower, while leaving the Oriflamme (err, or whatever we rename it) with the longer-range Inferno and Melta Cannon as used on the Hellhound/Devil Dog.


2. Miscellaneous stuff!

 J3f wrote:
Whats the point of making Holy Promethium the same as Psyflame Ammunition? What about Blessed Ammunition/Inferno Bolts A.K.A. Shred Bolter Rounds?

"Different codex, different name, same rule" has some precedent, I believe (heck, the laspistol, stubber, and autopistol all have the same profile), and I figured +1 Strength was something Sisters' flamers should be able to get -- and it's more useful than the Witch Hunters version, which caused a morale check, something increasingly unlikely to have any effect since everything seems to be Fearlesss nowadays.

 J3f wrote:
The Avenger Bolt Cannon (like the Exorcist Missile Launcer) is a namesake weapon and shouldn't be put on anything but the Avenger Strike Fighter. The Inferno Cannon and Melta Cannon are too large to mount on a Rhino, they require a larger chassis.

Agree to disagree?

 J3f wrote:
In my own Sisters of Battle Codex I made the Sanctifier a Fast Rhino with Hurricane Bolters. It has the option to take an Avenger megabolter (Codex: Dark Angles). Even with the Addition of an Avenger Megabolter it comes out to 110 points.

Gotta relook your codex (J3f's codex is over here) and check those out.


3. Avenger Bolt Cannon vs. Demolisher Cannon pricing

Have I....

Overcosted?

 J3f wrote:
The Vindicta is overcosted, you undervalued the Demolisher Cannon Strength 10 AP2 Large Blast means it can take on almost anything, it'll chew through Terminators and can even take a Hull Point off a Land Raider. The Avenger Bolt Cannon can take on MEQ, but won't be very effective against vehicles or 2+ saves.

Undercosted?

 Nevelon wrote:
I’m not sure I agree with the ABC being 20 points less then the DC. Sure, you won’t be removing TEQs from the table, but you will still erase MEQ wholesale. At range, so you don’t have the vindi’s issue of exposing it’s side armor. You are also going to be much better vs. MCs and flyers. I might bump the points up by 5...

What do the rest of you folks think?

What about a whole new vehicle class instead of cloning the Rhino?

It would be like a hovering podium, heavily armed and armored and kept in air by a four "pods" of small rockets. Kinda' like the alien assault hovercrafts from Battle: Los Angeles:

Just imagine this thing "retrofitted" for the tastes of some war-crazy preacher.

It would have a base statline of this:
BS 4 / FA 13 / SA 13 / RA 12 / HP 3 / Vehicle (Open-Topped, Skimmer) / cost somewhere around 140

And it would have three versions:
- dedicated transport with a capacity of 10 and a single heavy bolter/multi-melta/heavy flamer on a frontal mount
- a chariot for the characters (Canoness/Priest) with two weapons and a special ability that would allow the character to "spread" his/her special ability (Act of Faith or War Hymn) in an aura
- a gunboat with three weapons and a special ability that allows it to fire at different targets with each weapon and the option to replace two weapons with one big central weapon (ABC/melta-cannon/inferno cannon)

How 'you like it?

That's a pretty terrifying/beautiful image. I actually came up with rules for an Ecclesiarchal Chariot of Fire in this thread (along with Frateris Militia, Penitent Abhumans, & other fun stuff), though my stats are wimpier and my visual image wasn't nearly as cool.

 SisterSydney wrote:
That's a pretty terrifying/beautiful image. I actually came up with rules for an Ecclesiarchal Chariot of Fire in this thread (along with Frateris Militia, Penitent Abhumans, & other fun stuff), though my stats are wimpier and my visual image wasn't nearly as cool.

I think some heavier armor would be better than light/medium vehicles. It would make Sisters more reliable in the short- and mid range engagements that are their (supposed) specialty.

Would a Predator count as heavy or medium in your view? It's definitely not a Leman Russ, but I do see the Predator Infernus variant I've statted up here as a solid armoured spearhead with fairly short-range weapons -- which are, as you say, the Sisters' speciality. Except for the Avenger Bolt Cannon (36") on the Vindicta, these vehicles all carry weapons ranging 24" or less.
As for armour, you're right, the Sisters hardly need more fragile vehicles, which is an argument for keeping the front armour of the Oriflamme AV:12 rather than downgrading to 11.
Then there's the Ecclesiarchal Chariot of Fire and Deliverer Assault Shrine from the Mad Max Frateris thread, which are AV:12/12/10 HP:3 and AV:13/13/12 HP:4 respectively. Below are the current drafts of their rules -- I'm always eager for feedback so I can make improvements.
And I'm increasingly intrigued by your idea of a big, well-armored open-topped transport/gun platform -- presumably some kind of tank-chapel. (I'm not sure about giving Sisters skimmers). Maybe that's what the Deliverer needs to turn into, instead of just being a poor man's Land Raider?

*

Dedicated Transport: Chariot of Fire: 75 points
An enormous, flame-belching, three-wheeled variant of the standard Space Marine and Sororitas bikes, the Chariot of Fire is reserved for the most elevated and vicious of the Ecclesiarchy's clergy.
BS:1 Armour:12/12/10 Hull Points:3



Design notes:


*

Deliverer Assault Shrine: 150 points
Ugly juggernauts converted from civilian mining vehicles, their hulls covered first with crude slabs of heavy armour and then with layer upon layer of devotional ornamentation, Deliverers lurch across the battlefield with surprising speed. Flamestorm cannon roaring, they slam into enemy positions and drop their front ramps to disgorge Sororitas shock troops, a Confessor's personal battle conclave, or hate-crazed Frateris.
BS:4 Armour: 13/13/12 Hull Points:4


Design notes:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Would a Predator count as heavy or medium in your view? It's definitely not a Leman Russ, but I do see the Predator Infernus variant I've statted up here as a solid armoured spearhead with fairly short-range weapons -- which are, as you say, the Sisters' speciality.

The Predator is just a medium vehicle. It goes something like this:
- The sum of armor (FA+SA+RA) is 33 or less = light
- The sum of armor is 36 or less and there is no 14 armor = medium
- The sum of armor is 37 or greater and/or there is at least one facing with 14 armor = heavy


Anyway, I think the Deliverer is a little bit too much. I would split it into a transport and the gunboat because as it now stands, it knows a lot that doesn't sit well in the HS slot that has only specialist units. Maybe make the transport an FA option instead of a dedicated transport if you don't want it to compete with the humble Rhino. Oh, and make them skimmers/open-topped vehicles instead of tanks to put some more focus on their supporting role (so that 10 shooty Sisters in the vehicle will enjoy its benefits just as much as 10 choppy Sisters).

For fluff, the design could be a gift from a faithful Rogue Trader instead of a converted civilian vehicle. That way, you can even use not-very-Sistery names and say that they were given by the RT (like Firebringer - transport, Brightheart - gunship).

An open-topped transport that can carry Repentia (choppy) or Retributors (shooty), plus a few weapons of its own, would be very interesting -- and it wouldn't have to carry more than six models to do a decent job, actually. It's not as if more than six Repentia out of 10 usually make it into close combat. It could even be a converted Repressor with extra armour.

That said, I still like the idea of a big rolling chapel on tank tracks with lots of guns outside and fanatics inside.

Saw threat title, was expecting some Girls Und Panzer SoBs...

I am disappointed

Hmmm I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. I think the Avenger Cannon tank's fine as is, and concur that the SOB Pred needs some weapons selection pruning.


Also I want these tanks. bad. Curse you GW!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Hmmm I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. I think the Avenger Cannon tank's fine as is, and concur that the SOB Pred needs some weapons selection pruning.


Also I want these tanks. bad. Curse you GW!

FW Relic Predator kit plus fleur-de-lys upgrade sprue from the Exorcist? Or graft a Hellhound turret on the Predator kit?

I was thinking more the Avenger cannon toting tank and the Oriflamme.

Avenger-toting tank can be easily converted from a Vindicator with some bitz. Get a Shadowsword kit and use half the Vulcan Megabolter and voila, you have a Vindicta.

According to the studio's Vehicle Design Rules Notes, the Predator is a light tank. Officially, there is a "missing link" medium tank STC that is one of the Holy Grails of the Adeptus Mechanicus, although the studio seem to have forgotten this, which is a shame because it would make a great 'new big kit'. Maybe the Sisters will find it for their next print codex? heh.

For me, the Oriflamme looks like an Immolator with the front turret replaced with a Predator or Hellhound turret with the appropriate weapon in it.

Since we're here, have an amusing tank I sketched up after putting the model together for a 'mad mek race' game. I took an Immolator top plate, a Bhaal Predator turret, and a FW Exorcist turret, and put them all on the same rhino chassis.

THE CLEANSER - 200 POINTS, {HEAVY SUPPORT}

BS: 4 FA: 11 SA: 14 RA: 11 HP: 3

Type:
Tank

Composition:
1 Cleanser

Wargear:
1 turret-mounted twin-linked gatling bolter
1 turret-mounted exorcist missile launcher
fire control system
extra armour
searchlight
smoke launchers

Special rules:
Shield of Faith

Options:
- May exchange twin-linked gatling bolter for:
- - a flamestorm cannon: free
- - a pair of multi-meltas: free
- May take side sponsons with:
- - Heavy Bolters: 10 points
- - Heavy Flamers: 10 points
- - Multi-meltas: 10 points
- May take any upgrade from the Adepta Sororitas Vehicle Wargear list


New weapons:
Gatling Bolter: Rng 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 4, Rending

Thanks, guys. Comments about Furyou's tank design and my attempt to write up Atomaki's idea:

1. Furyou's Cleanser
Neat tank, terrible name. (And you were objecting to Oriflamme? Unless this is a Sisters of Cleaning joke...).
With the 48" anti-tank Exorcists and 36" anti-light-vehicle Gatling bolter, it's a little schizophrenic about where it wants to be on the tabletop and what it wants to be shooting at, though. Also, 200 points with AV:11 front and back? Aiee.



2. The Deliverer as an open-topped vehicle with frontal AV:14

It's 140 points, but if you take all the "Rolling Chapel" options from blinding holy lights to a Ministorum Priest ranting out the top, it goes to 260!

Deliverer Assault Shrine: 140 points
The first Delivers were jury-rigged in a pious panic by the miners of Kossus J-3F, where countless heretics had taken refuge in the lower levels and set up deadly point-blank ambushes for the Battle Sisters sent down dark tunnels to root them out. Crudely converted from civilian ore carriers, their hulls covered with slabs of armour and hastily daubed religious icons, the improvised vehicles smashed through unscathed where lighter vehicles had been destroyed. By the time the nine-year campaign was over, Canoness Guderianna of the Iron Rose had become convinced the Deliverer should not be a one-time expedient but a permanent part of her Order's armoury. Impressed by her example, other Orders Militant commissioned their own conversions until, after only six centuries of lobbying, bribery, and assassination, the Ecclesiarchy persuaded the Mechanicum to mass-produce a standardized design. Though disdained by the Astartes as an inferior Land Raider and by the Guard as an undersized Gorgon, the Deliverer fills a gap in the Sororitas arsenal between nimble but thin-skinned Rhino-based transports and the super-heavy Storm Queen.
Ugly juggernauts converted from civilian ore carriers, their hulls covered first with crude slabs of heavy armour and then with layer upon layer of devotional ornamentation, Deliverers lurch across the battlefield with surprising speed. Flamestorm cannon roaring, they slam into enemy positions and out leap Sororitas shock troops, a Confessor's personal battle conclave, or hate-crazed Frateris.
BS:4 Armour: 14/13/12 Hull Points:4

Force Organization: Heavy Support. The Deliverer is a dedicated transport option for a Celestian Squad or Sororitas Command Squad.
In addition, for each Confessor in your army, one Battle Conclave may take a Deliverer as a Dedicated Transport.


Rolling Chapel Equipment List (first posted here)


Costing:


Edited to add that it's a Dedicated Transport choice for Celestians (now you have a reason to take Celestians!).
Edited to add option to upgrade flamestorm cannon to magna-meltas, because awesome.
Edited to rewrite the fluff completely based on J3f's suggestions.

The Deliverer seems really out of place for the Sisters. They get the best of the best From the Ministorum. Even if some convent based together 1 deliverer while being under siege and completely cutoff from the Ad Mech and Ministorum, afterwards the design would be changed for mass production by Forge Worlds. The Deliver's principles would be taken into account and then vastly improved for the production model.

You make a very good point about the Deliverer's background, and I think I'll revise the fluff accordingly. Rules thoughts?

.I was originally thinking of it as a Frateris Militia vehicle, but the militia's kludged-together assault transport is the Hussite, and the Deliverer is something rather special. I may have been trying too hard to emphasize this was Not A Land Raider, but N.A.L.R. =! crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Totally rewrote the Deliverer fluff. Thanks, J3f.

You comment on FAV 11, but... with the way the two turrets barely fit on the chassis, you notice that in order to bring both weapons to bear, it has to park side-on to the enemy. So really, it's effectivly FAV 13 and RAV 13, with side AV 11. Only it has to present a wider frontage than it is long.

Wait, so you're saying it's so badly designed that one fault cancels out the other, making it good design? (Ok, I understand you're making up rules after the fact to depict something you converted for a "wacky races" game....)

Also, here's a thought, should the Ecclesiarchal Chariot of Fire be better armoured than 12/12/10? I'm wondering about 12/12/12 -- since melee attacks will hit the rear armour -- or even 13/12/12, but that starts to seem less... charioty.

Since when does imperium go in for producing heavy armored skimmers? They're not eldar after all and i'm not sure if IOM really has enough current resources and/or need for developing such tank concept.

I can easilly imagine a warp-phone call to adeptus mechanicus with such proposition.

-...eh...hello?
- Adeptus Mechanicus, brother Machinespirit at your disposal.
- Yep, it's sister Holyprometheum from Adepta Sororitas and i wanted to make a request for skimmer.
- Sure, you need a bunch of landspeeders?
- ...not really, you see, we want something with armor that provides even a tiny bit of protection!
- You got rhino and predator chasis, right?
- Yeeep, but we want it to be hovering above the ground really-really fast and to be fairly well protected at the same time!
- ...maybe something like a stormraven?
- Not exactly. We want to stick lots and lots of flamers on it! What's the point of it without the flamers?!
- So, you want a fast well-armored skimmer with lots and lots of flamers? Is it correct?
- Thanks God-Emperror! Exactly!
- Sorry, we don't have such chasis at the moment, but i'll connect you to our development department now.
-...the last time they've invent something new was somewhere like 3000 years ago, right?..
- ...*ahem*...CONNECTING TO ADEPTUS MECHANICUS DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT. YOUR CALL IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US, PLEASE HANG ON.

Any Skimmer they did make, besides Land Speeders of course, would likely be heavily armored(relatively speaking) because of the rarity of skimmer technology.

If you can only make X of a type of vehicle, it might as well have the biggest impact it can.