Now while you have Astartes consigned to Dreadnought armour to battle for millennia I have seen mention of normal Space Marines getting old and retiring effectively to teaching positions for the Scouts and what not.

But what constitutes old for these genetic freaks? I ask because for my home brew chapter I want the Chief Librarian to be old, like really old, so old that only a few Dreadnoughts remember as far back as him to a great disaster in the chapter's past - which I'm saying happened about 800-1000 years ago? Is this too much?

Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

There is no such thing as retirement for a Space Marine. Scout Sergeants IIRC just choose to stay behind most of the time and not advance further.

But Astartes just fight till they die.

Fair enough, thanks guys.

As I recall one of the Ultramarine novels had a retired marine who was too injured to fight but not good enough for a Dreadnought.

In certain cases, injury will render a Space Marine not combat-ready, in which case they take on administrative or advisory/planning roles with the Chapter Master, but they never stop being Space Marines. There is no "off duty" period or a time when they hang up the bolter and power armor and go spend their days fishing and reading Imperial Digest.

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Technically Bjorn is the oldest

200-250 yrs is "standard" age (lose your edge and get killed?), Pedro = 350 yrs, Cassius = 400 yrs, Logan = 700 yrs, Ulrik = 900 yrs, Dante = 1100 yrs.
Overall, after many searches it is largely expected the "scythe of war" is the typical "retirement".

The next closest thing to retirement is if a marine is maimed to a point of not meeting minimum combat effectiveness.
They tend to then be put in charge of a team of vassals maintaining / outfitting the chapter depending on their skillset.

I would suggest for the upper end of old for a librarian custom chapter, somewhere around 700 to 900 years.
If you make him older than Ulrik he may take offence.

 Psienesis wrote:
In certain cases, injury will render a Space Marine not combat-ready, in which case they take on administrative or advisory/planning roles with the Chapter Master, but they never stop being Space Marines. There is no "off duty" period or a time when they hang up the bolter and power armor and go spend their days fishing and reading Imperial Digest.

training too potentially, any marine who has amassed several hundred years of service will have alot of wisdom, information and skills to pass on.
invaluable information hard earned like a weakness in xeno anatomy, or other such things learned over there long lives.

Yep, exactly. There's always a use for a Space Marine. That's basically why Dreadnoughts exist. Even though they may be little more than a sack of organs and a semi-functional brain, they won't let the poor bastard die and instead stick him in a walking tank.

 Psienesis wrote:
reading Imperial Digest.

haha that made me laugh

 Talizvar wrote:
I would suggest for the upper end of old for a librarian custom chapter, somewhere around 700 to 900 years.
If you make him older than Ulrik he may take offence.

I'll be polite and make him 800.

You probably should also consider what is the parent Legion of your chapter. Blood Angles are said to be longer lived than other marines, so Dante is not a good benchmark for non-BA marines. Chaplain Cassius of Ultramarines is considered ancient and he is under 400 years old.

 Crimson wrote:
You probably should also consider what is the parent Legion of your chapter. Blood Angles are said to be longer lived than other marines, so Dante is not a good benchmark for non-BA marines. Chaplain Cassius of Ultramarines is considered ancient and he is under 400 years old.

No one actually knows when marines die naturally anyways, Since they never did before.

Really? I'm umming and arring over them being Raven Guard or White Scar, though some people have mentioned Blood Angels, I'm tempted.

As I've had a long hiatus I'm going to see how my playing style fits into the different tactics.

Khonsu wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
You probably should also consider what is the parent Legion of your chapter. Blood Angles are said to be longer lived than other marines, so Dante is not a good benchmark for non-BA marines. Chaplain Cassius of Ultramarines is considered ancient and he is under 400 years old.

No one actually knows when marines die naturally anyways, Since they never did before.

Actually I imagine as an average Iron Hands live longest just because they're totally cool with going full Robocop.

Khonsu wrote:

No one actually knows when marines die naturally anyways, Since they never did before.

Of course they do.

in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

 daddyorchips wrote:
in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

IIRC that book is largely retconned now isn't it?

 Crimson wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

No one actually knows when marines die naturally anyways, Since they never did before.

Of course they do.

I haven't actually seen any Marine die of age. I remember reading something about GKs eventually retiring to Titan but it does not state how old they are when they do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if they sent injured marines to train as TechMarines, since pilot or mechanic positions might require less combat ability.

Never heard of Space Marien dying of old age. But then there is conflicting sources about whether or not the Astartes are mortal or not.

As for myself I'll go for the one from Dan Abnett Horus Rising :

"There was an irony, of course. To all intents and purposes, and by every measurement known to the gene-scientists and gerontologist, the Astartes, like the primarchs, were immortals. Age would not wither them, nor bring them down. They would live forever... five thousand years, ten thousand years, beyond even that into some unimaginable millenium. Except for the scythe of war.

Immortal, but not invulnerable. Yes, they might live forever, but they would never get the chance. Immortality was a by-product of their Astartes strenghs, but those strenghs had been gene-built for combat.

They had been born immortal only to die in war. That was the way of it."

Khonsu wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
You probably should also consider what is the parent Legion of your chapter. Blood Angles are said to be longer lived than other marines, so Dante is not a good benchmark for non-BA marines. Chaplain Cassius of Ultramarines is considered ancient and he is under 400 years old.

No one actually knows when marines die naturally anyways, Since they never did before.

Brother Gravius of the Salamanders was probably the oldest known Astartes. At the time of his discovery/eventual death on Scoria (962.M41), he was the last known loyalist survivor of the Drop Site Massacre (006.M31)... and his death only came about when his gene seed was removed because he was fused to his watch post on a dying world.

 Psienesis wrote:
In certain cases, injury will render a Space Marine not combat-ready, in which case they take on administrative or advisory/planning roles with the Chapter Master, but they never stop being Space Marines. There is no "off duty" period or a time when they hang up the bolter and power armor and go spend their days fishing and reading Imperial Digest.

The closest thing to "retirement" for space marines is Apothecaries that pursue non-combat roles.

 Carlson793 wrote:

Brother Gravius of the Salamanders was probably the oldest known Astartes. At the time of his discovery/eventual death on Scoria (962.M41), he was the last known loyalist survivor of the Drop Site Massacre (006.M31)... and his death only came about when his gene seed was removed because he was fused to his watch post on a dying world.

Actually, he was just sitting around on a crashed space ship waiting for rescue. He was only alive because he went into a sus-an coma, and he was too physically frail (as well as being close to death, though whether it was age or autophagia isn't clear) to move when rescue finally arrived, which is why they euthanised him and took his progenoids.

We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

As a side note, in most of Dante's fluff, it says he was already the BA chapter master 1100 years ago. Right before that he was a captain during the Secoris tragedy that the Space Hulk game refers to, where the chapter got thinned down a lot. (The one that the SH game refers to them "getting revenge for," not the sin of damnation campaign itself.) His predecessor chapter master was also a survivor of that, and so he had to wait for him to go down to finally get the boss chair.

In the dataslate fluff, it says he's been chapter master for 1500 years, and no one knows how much older than that he is.

So if you take your own estimate of how long it takes to become a Blood Angel and reach the rank of captain or chapter master, (probably at least several hundred years right?) and then add either 1100 or 1500 years depending on which source you like more...Either way you end up with the single uncontested oldest non-dreadnought in the Imperium, and he still enjoys jump packing into battle and axeing dudes himself.

There's a James Swallow (I think) short story where some Tzeentch sorcerer uses some powerful spell that makes his memories attack his own mind. The more memories, the more powerful it is. He also says it quickly drains multiple decades of lifespan. Dante shakes off the attack by a millennium of memories, and axes him. Then he takes off his mask (for the first time outside the BA monastery,) to taunt him about how decades mean jack to him. (presumably he still looks young.)

I think the whole "super-old but I still look 35" is a nod to the vampiric sub-theme that the chapter has.

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

Do you have any example of Ratling dying of old age? Orgyn? Even a normal Imperial citizen? This just doesn't come up in the fiction as it is not the focus of the stories, still the statements about the lifespan clearly indicate it is limited, and the logical end point is death. I actually agree that it would be highly unlikely for a marine to die this way, as they are much more likely to be killed in combat before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilson wrote:

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They indeed do not count. They hang in the warp and are blessed by Chaos Gods.

haha yeah fair enough

kinda related, does anyone know the average life span of a regular human - i.e a civi/ gaurdsman ( that didn't die to xeno!) in 40k?

I believe the average life span now is roughly 70 years.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

Do you have any example of Ratling dying of old age? Orgyn? Even a normal Imperial citizen? This just doesn't come up in the fiction as it is not the focus of the stories, still the statements about the lifespan clearly indicate it is limited, and the logical end point is death. I actually agree that it would be highly unlikely for a marine to die this way, as they are much more likely to be killed in combat before that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilson wrote:

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They indeed do not count. They hang in the warp and are blessed by Chaos Gods.

Ratlings, Ogryns and Normal Imperial citizens are not genetically augmented and unlike Space Marines are not "children" of immortals.
Besides Brother Gravius of the Salamanders survived since the Heresy, That's almost 10k Years, Try again.

Also well off Imperial Citizens take Juvenat treatments to prolong their lives, So they die of old age.

When they die?

Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

We're never going to reach a clear answer on whether they are immortal or not because, as much as both I and Crimson would want otherwise, there's plenty of examples of both so there will always be contradictions. Pretty much everything is in-universe statements, and what isn't (ie BA codex) can be directly disproven by the existence of, say, that Salamander dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

This is quite important to remember and often disregarded. There might be just as many 100k year old CSM from the Heresy as there are 1k.

Khonsu wrote:

Besides Brother Gravius of the Salamanders survived since the Heresy, That's almost 10k Years, Try again.

He's not disputing that, he's saying that as he sat still, and as Furyou Miko points out, was in a sus-an coma. If he had been up and walking around, would he have lasted nearly as long?

I haven't the book in front of me but looking through the web it mentions that his ship was also lost in the warp before crash landing, is that the case and would that make any difference? I guess not because clearly he had been around for a pretty damn long time. Maybe not the full 10k years, maybe even longer, depending on how the tides of the warp we flowing.

Some other quotes that might be useful

Deathwatch Rulebook, p42 - THE SONS OF SANGUINIUS
The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first.

So a Blood Angel can live for more than a millennia if they don't die beforehand.

2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, P6.
A Space Marine is a genetically enhanced warrior, far stronger and tougher than an ordinary human being. Space Marines can live for several hundred years and they possess extraordinary powers.

5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p16
Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the headquarters staff, only a very few of these officers actually accompany the Chapter to war. Many are non-combatants of advanced years whose roles are to find and train recruits or administrate the Chapter

I can't find any thing similar in the latest codex, but this seems to be different from the Blood Angels. Where older Space Marines might take on less combat active roles the Blood Angels continue to fight maybe? Perhaps the Blood Angel are better at dodging bullets than other Space Marines. Otherwise you might have 1000s of old fellas wandering around each Chapters keep annoying the young 'uns if every Space Marine lived as long as the Blood Angels.

That's the closest reference to retiring I have been able to find, I don't have the actual sources but they seem legit.

Sus-an is just coma, and surely does not prevent cellular degradation?

 Wilson wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They might in fact not be ore than a few hundred years old - Residing in the Warp does weird things to time, which is also why there are so many veterans of Chaos - For many of them, the Horus Heresy is rather young a happening and is less than some hundred years old, while others might be 30000 years old and have forgotten why they fight in the first place...

Just... The Warp.

 Wilson wrote:
Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.
I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

I had meant to add in my prior post that other marines that have "been around" for extended lengths of time is due to time differences in the warp. "Perceived" or actual age limit is correct as listed while the rest of the universe passes time at a faster rate while those are in the warp.
Oddly enough, some of this applies in "real life" of something called "time dilation" where gravity and velocity can produce a different passage of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

So spending extended lengths of time on a spaceship (never mind warp travel) can vastly change the time experienced relative to a planet.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.
I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

I had meant to add in my prior post that other marines that have "been around" for extended lengths of time is due to time differences in the warp. "Perceived" or actual age limit is correct as listed while the rest of the universe passes time at a faster rate while those are in the warp.
Oddly enough, some of this applies in "real life" of something called "time dilation" where gravity and velocity can produce a different passage of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

So spending extended lengths of time on a spaceship (never mind warp travel) can vastly change the time experienced relative to a planet.

I was just thinking on that, not the real life part, Space Marines use the warp to travel around. They might not have been living in the Warp like the Legion and Renegades might, but they also don't spend all of their time in real space. A warp jump taking 1 month in real space might have taken 1000 years in the warp. So does that effect their age? Would they die en route.

I guess that corresponds though with what I said about the Salamander Gravius being lost in the warp before crash landing.

Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Crimson wrote:We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Were you referring to this, by any chance?

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Everything else, in particular relative immortality, is quite simply the Warp (be it via time distortion and age regression or Chaos corruption), or some author's alternate take on the setting. As you said, this discussion keeps coming up again and again, and as we know there is no canon. (not directed at you, but other readers who may still believe that the various sources are intended to portray a consistent setting)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

No, he doesn't count because he atrophied to death. You can be biologically immortal, but that doesn't mean you can ignore things like exercise.

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Plus there isn't any record of an Astartes dying of old age.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Crimson wrote:We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Were you referring to this, by any chance?

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Everything else, in particular relative immortality, is quite simply the Warp (be it via time distortion and age regression or Chaos corruption), or some author's alternate take on the setting. As you said, this discussion keeps coming up again and again, and as we know there is no canon. (not directed at you, but other readers who may still believe that the various sources are intended to portray a consistent setting)

Considering Veterans are often several centuries old, this is most assuredly bs by even the most remedial common lore. That's simply two or three centuries old, which isn't even an experienced veteran.

Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

These guys seem to be the more extreme end of the age scale. So couldn't 2 - 3 centuries old be accurate, with the sometimes far older being veterans?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.

Luckily it is not in the Black Library, which is basically glorified fanfiction. BL novels have terrible consistency and I, for one, do not take them seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Cassius is nearly four hundred, Telion is probably about 50 years younger than him.

 Crimson wrote:


Cassius is nearly four hundred, Telion is probably about 50 years younger than him.

I take several as being 3, but I guess my maths might be off

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.

Luckily it is not in the Black Library, which is basically glorified fanfiction. BL novels have terrible consistency and I, for one, do not take them seriously.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I take several as being 3, but I guess my maths might be off

'Several' is terribly vague, and could mean pretty much anything. However, 'almost four hundred' was stated in the previous codex.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Correct, the Black Legion recruit like everyone else. The passage I mentioned specifically speaks of the old Legionnaires, the veterans of the Heresy, who are not at all portrayed as insignificant in number.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

The BA lifespan has been referred several times in many publications. And your notion that 3rd or 4th editions were somehow big fluff changes are completely groundless. Fluff has been mostly unchanged since the 2nd edition.

Your views on them are irrelevant and worthless considering they're made and published by GW as they're first party work. If GW didn't like their content, they wouldn't publish them. "I don't like this medium therefore it doesn't exist" isn't an argument at all. It's attempting to avoid even acknowledging the problem, especially when the Black Library is better written then the Codices.

I did not say that. I stated my personal reasons for not taking BL seriously. And of course your notion that BL is better written than the codices is completely a personal opinion as well.

Wyzilla wrote:Considering Veterans are often several centuries old, this is most assuredly bs by even the most remedial common lore. That's simply two or three centuries old, which isn't even an experienced veteran.

I guess that makes Marneus Calgar an "inexperienced veteran", then, as per the information about his age as provided in the codices?

"Of all the fighting formations that make up a Space Marine Chapter, it is the 1st Company which is most feared. For a Space Marine to join the 1st Company is for him to have won renown on battlefields uncounted and to have earned the respect of his Battle-Brothers through deeds of blood and fire. Most such veterans have served as sergeants elsewhere - sometimes for centuries - before being accepted into the First Company, but a notable few are elevated after performing insane acts of heroism."

If "common lore" is the novels for you, that's entirely your choice. Just don't complain to me that when writing their codices, GW sticks to their own ideas of what Space Marines are, instead of adopting the aberrant clusterfeth that is the "popular" Black Library stuff, where most people seem to draw their background information from nowadays.

Wyzilla wrote:Your views on them are irrelevant and worthless considering they're made and published by GW as they're first party work. If GW didn't like their content, they wouldn't publish them. "I don't like this medium therefore it doesn't exist" isn't an argument at all. It's attempting to avoid even acknowledging the problem, especially when the Black Library is better written then the Codices.

This has nothing to do with GW liking or not liking the content of some freelancing author. This has to do with different people having different ideas about the setting - and GW being totally fine with that.

I feel there's a need to reiterate once again:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

Pilau Rice wrote:Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Telion is one of the oldest Ultramarines and has served under three different Chapter Masters. And he has not "over" three centuries of combat experience, but "three centuries of service". The original source does not use "over" in this context. Don't just trust fan-edited wikis like Lexicanum with their sometimes twisted wording without at least checking the original material they supposedly refer to.

And Cassius is almost four centuries old, so there is no contradiction.

Again: All of this depends on where you look. Pick your preferred answer, just be aware of what it says where. Why do people even see a reason to argue here?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Correct, the Black Legion recruit like everyone else. The passage I mentioned specifically speaks of the old Legionnaires, the veterans of the Heresy, who are not at all portrayed as insignificant in number.

Like I said then, I would imagine that those ones had experienced 10 millennia of war. I was just making the comment as not every member of the Black Legion would have. It's a bit of a blanket statement.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Telion is one of the oldest Ultramarines and has served under three different Chapter Masters. And he has not "over" three centuries of combat experience, but "three centuries of service". The original source does not use "over" in this context. Don't just trust fan-edited wikis like Lexicanum with their sometimes twisted wording without at least checking the original material they supposedly refer to.

And Cassius is almost four centuries old, so there is no contradiction.

Again: All of this depends on where you look. Pick your preferred answer, just be aware of what it says where. Why do people even see a reason to argue here?

I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata, you don't need to preach about the likes of Lexicanum and 40k wiki to me . And who's arguing?

Direct quote

Torias Tellion is the most accomplished Scout sergeant the Ultramarines has ever known. He is a veteran of over three centuries of combat and in his time he has trained generations of new recruits.

Pilau Rice wrote:I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata

Oh, does that have contradicting fluff? If so, just go ahead and post a quote, please! It's always easier to work with that than how people sometimes remember something, or what some wiki claims.

If GW has changed their information on Telion, I'd certainly have to take this into consideration - just so far I was not aware of any contradiction between the studio's own publications.

[edit] Ninja'd! Thanks - did they change anything about Cassius, too, or is he still supposed to be the oldest? Either way it sounds as if the age difference between those two does not seem to be very big.

Lynata: Because it's more fun to argue that one lens is the correct one rather than to accept that there are multiple lens, of course. It's one of the great problems in society these days.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata

Oh, does that have contradicting fluff? If so, just go ahead and post a quote, please! It's always easier to work with that than how people sometimes remember something, or what some wiki claims.

If GW has changed their information on Telion, I'd certainly have to take this into consideration - just so far I was not aware of any contradiction between the studio's own publications.

[edit] Ninja'd! Thanks - did they change anything about Cassius, too, or is he still supposed to be the oldest? Either way it sounds as if the age difference between those two does not seem to be very big.

Yes, the age is several centuries old, I should have said I quoted from the latest codex.

Ortan Cassius is the Oldest living member of the Ultramarines and even remembers when some of the Chapters most ancient Dreadnoughts fought as flesh and blood ... yadda yadda yadda... Though Cassius is several centuries old, his arm remains strong and his aim true

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

Might be old fluff, but they still go with it. Like alot of the space marine novel stuff.
HH says theyre immortal because they were the new thing on the block and no one knew how long theyd live except maybe the emp.

Id say only champions/heros of the chapter get teaching jobs/ interred into dreadys.
I vaguely remember them being euthanized if they arent worth anything to the chapter.
I think there was a no arms and legs blood angel successor that hinted he was going to be feed to the chapter

The first wording would have put Telion at something like ~320 years of age, whereas this amended one could put him at anything between 330 to 398, assuming Cassius really is 399 (the maximum for being "close to four centuries of age").

At least it's still not an inconsistency - unless they made Cassius older, but it looks like instead they just don't mention details about his age anymore.

Pilau Rice wrote:And who's arguing?

Oh, that wasn't directed at you but Wyzilla and others.

I can sort of relate how people feel their interpretation of the setting is "truer" than others' .. I've been there myself, and I still think GW's original version is better than 90% of the licensed stuff, but in the end, such things are immaterial as the IP will simply continue to publish contradicting "versions" of the setting. The only way to deal with it is by picking the one we like most (including the option to mix and match or insert your own ideas) and accept that not all material will be compatible with our chosen stance. And that whatever interpretation we prefer, it is not more "true" or more "right" than anyone elses. That's just a feature of this franchise.

 Lynata wrote:
The first wording would have put Telion at something like ~320 years of age, whereas this amended one could put him at anything between 330 to 398, assuming Cassius really is 399 (the maximum for being "close to four centuries of age").

At least it's still not an inconsistency - unless they made Cassius older, but it looks like instead they just don't mention details about his age anymore.

I know that it is possible that Cassius can of course be older than Tellion, but the writing doesn't seem to suggest a great difference between the two, hence the smiley face. If Cassius is the oldest and it's a big deal surely he should be truly ancient amongst the Ultramarines, not like by 50 years or something.

I suppose in warrior terms, 50 years is a long time though.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

Space Marines are theorized to be biologically immortal... which is immediately discounted when it is noted that Blood Angels live longer than Marines of other genetic lines.

Ashiraya wrote:Sus-an is just coma, and surely does not prevent cellular degradation?

It slows all the bodily processes, so while it can't prevent cellular degradation, it does mean that the cells divide and die off more slowly on an individual basis.

Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer? Dante is the oldest known Marine, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Age has effects on them too. Look at Dante and his fluff.

His very joining has passed into legend, the mental effect of the loss of all he joined up with, the passing of so many years.
Even the likes of Logan at about 700 was a mere blood claw when he was a chapter master.

The only ones who even know of his recruitment are dreadnoughts. At a total of roughly 1300, 1100 as leader.

What keeps him going partly is the one golden warrior between darkness or light. Even marines begin to feel age at such long life.

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Also surely signs of aging after they have become full battle-brothers indicate they're not immortal - I've seen plenty of wrinkly Space Marines with grey hair - the 'life cycle' of a Space Wolf being the most obvious.

Or do the experienced brothers get anti-vanity and dye their hair white?

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer? Dante is the oldest known Marine, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

The absence of proof is not proof to the contrary. That is an argumentative fallacy.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They might in fact not be ore than a few hundred years old - Residing in the Warp does weird things to time, which is also why there are so many veterans of Chaos - For many of them, the Horus Heresy is rather young a happening and is less than some hundred years old, while others might be 30000 years old and have forgotten why they fight in the first place...

Just... The Warp.

Besides Typhus shouldn't be listed, It should be Kharn and Ahriman since both were born on Terra prior to their Legion's reunification with their Primarchs.

Thats the good thing about home brew. You dont HAVE to follow the storyline.
You can have a librarian older than the oldest "known" marine who isnt known for it just because he doesnt brag about it. Heck, you can have a librarian who served under the thousand sons before the HH if you want. It is YOUR chapter, do as you like fluffwise so long as you stay within the rules.
Heck, you can even have onewho was a "precurser before the marines who managed to stay alive and well and works with your chapter.
We see the likes of hello kitty marines, marine armies based off football teams and the smurfs. Your idea is far closer to fluff than those.
i say go for it and come up with whatever storyline you like.

 Crimson wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did. I had assumed they all simply die in combat and the actual age has never been tested.

 PhillyT wrote:

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did.

Nope.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did. I had assumed they all simply die in combat and the actual age has never been tested.

You're correct it just heavily implies it by comparing the length of someone's life to another. And it certainly isn't based on survivability given the BA's condition. Maybe that is what the Black Rage is? The Astartes' version of dementia?

Given their small numbers and the fact they're genetically engineered to head butt the universe I doubt Astartes pensions are a major issue but over 10,000 years? Say the average life expectancy of a Marine is 200 and we stick with the ball park figure of 1 million marines operating at any one time - thats 500 million men who have put on a suit of power armour over the years.

I imagine its rare but its almost certainly happened that Old Brother Izander keeled over during a feast in the fortress-monastery's great hall.

Retirement?

Wilson: Depends on where you are and what your social class is. The upper bound for people who can afford it is in the neighborhood of four hundred years, for factory-floor labourers you might be looking at fifty years or so assuming they don't die in industrial accidents.

BrianDavion wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

IIRC that book is largely retconned now isn't it?

I've been re reading this after many years over the last few days and noted the old marines. They used positions like chaplains for aged and war torn marines. A cool use but totally out if sink with todays fluff. I would think any marine that makes old age now and isn't so badly mangled that he can't function would be considered a bit of an embarrassment as he can hardly have been doing much work over the years. Questions would need to be asked!! Why are you not dead old man?!

BrianDavion wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

IIRC that book is largely retconned now isn't it?

it is in a curious limbo. many bits have been retconned, many others have become canon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
so, thinking about this, we don;t know of any marines dying of old age. we do know that maybe some get too old and damaged to fight. but that might be old lore. we know that there are plenty of examples of marines living hundreds of years and at least one case 1000s. we know that sus-an can make them practically immortal.

until we hear a reliable story of a marine retiring, maybe we should assume that most don't get to retire. they serve, they die somewhere. maybe after 10 years, maybe after a few hundred. but a few hundred is notable. most marines don't last that long. presumably but not definitely because they die first.

if any gw person is reading this, we either need more clarity or we need to completely blow all this apart for a laugh.

Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

They call them "Long Fangs" and "Grey Hunters" in the Space Wolves, and that is exactly what they are. Old, grey-haired and long-fanged Space Wolves, who make fun of the young pups and talk about battles that are centuries, if not millennia, past.

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

It doesn't sound beyond Dreadnoughts or even bionics, Considering that an Excoriators scout(A scout! not even a full marine) Fought without his entire lower body and actually did more than the rest of the Scouts combined
should show how much of a non issue that is.

Khonsu wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

It doesn't sound beyond Dreadnoughts or even bionics, Considering that an Excoriators scout(A scout! not even a full marine) Fought without his entire lower body and actually did more than the rest of the Scouts combined
should show how much of a non issue that is.

Bisection is both a common injury for Astartes to survive and is quite livable, even at the pelvis. Just bionics or shoved into a dreadnought, or start working in a vehicle.

More exceptional was how the majority of the scout's organs were vaporized presumably by having a lightning claw shoved into his chest.

Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Knockagh wrote:
Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Wait, Space Marine? That book is so old it was made a Heretic Tome by the Black Library.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Knockagh wrote:
Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Wait, Space Marine? That book is so old it was made a Heretic Tome by the Black Library.

I know I'm there myself sadly. I wonder what happens to old gamers are they allowed to retire??? Or will GW miniatures cost so much that I will need to farm until I drop in the field some day?? Actually come to think about it that's what happens most people in my profession! Can't think of a better way to go.

Without reading the entire thread, my view on this is when a marine is alive and well, but too many replacement parts and such to put them on full combat duty. They then get put on "retirement" as ship commanders, advisors, recruitment NCOs, garrison castellans, and other normally non-direct combat jobs that their reduced physical ability will allow without impacting active military operations, thus allowing able marines to carry the bulk of the missions and not slow them down.

As for getting old, I think marines are effectively immortal in relation to normal humans and will not "retire" to a pasture somewhere to live out their days. Can you imagine the type of nurses needed in the Space Marine nursing home?
Retired marine- "I don't want broccoli!"
Nurse- "You will eat your broccoli or I will shove it down your throat."
Retired Marine- "Try me."

Hell they go down to the rec room and talk war stories and they would be there for years not repeating the same one twice.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

And not all Chaos marines are warp dwellers. The blood Gorgons, with a 6000 yr old chapter master live in a spacehulk in real space. Sort of a Chaos version of the Phalanx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Col. Dash wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, my view on this is when a marine is alive and well, but too many replacement parts and such to put them on full combat duty. They then get put on "retirement" as ship commanders, advisors, recruitment NCOs, garrison castellans, and other normally non-direct combat jobs that their reduced physical ability will allow without impacting active military operations, thus allowing able marines to carry the bulk of the missions and not slow them down.

As for getting old, I think marines are effectively immortal in relation to normal humans and will not "retire" to a pasture somewhere to live out their days. Can you imagine the type of nurses needed in the Space Marine nursing home?
Retired marine- "I don't want broccoli!"
Nurse- "You will eat your broccoli or I will shove it down your throat."
Retired Marine- "Try me."

Hell they go down to the rec room and talk war stories and they would be there for years not repeating the same one twice.

Soritas Hosptilers are the only ones qualified.

Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

In the fun happiness of the far future, there's only dark humour

There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old, and this is a son of Dorn not of Sanguinius, so should not have an extended lifespan. He is recorded leading the Jerulas Crusade in 645.M39 as High Marshal and Vinculus Crusade in 883.M41. It could be two High Marshals sharing the same name, but apparently portraits show great similarities of the High Marshal/s and considering the Black Templars are crusading the chances of recruiting a person who looks almost identical, with the same name and probably from another planet are very slim, but who knows . So in my opinion Space Marines don't retire but most die before they reach an age close to a 500.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

Welcome to the impirial guard!

When you die! Or, if you're really old, they'll just list you as KIA (Killed in action) and keep you secret for the rest of your immortality.

 somestrangeguardsman wrote:
There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old, and this is a son of Dorn not of Sanguinius, so should not have an extended lifespan. He is recorded leading the Jerulas Crusade in 645.M39 as High Marshal and Vinculus Crusade in 883.M41. It could be two High Marshals sharing the same name, but apparently portraits show great similarities of the High Marshal/s and considering the Black Templars are crusading the chances of recruiting a person who looks almost identical, with the same name and probably from another planet are very slim, but who knows . So in my opinion Space Marines don't retire but most die before they reach an age close to a 500.

This is quite interesting as it's pretty solid counter-evidence to the supposed long-livedness of the BA.

 somestrangeguardsman wrote:
There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old.

On the other hand the BT are spacefaring crusaders. Ships can spend years in the Warp while only weeks pass aboard. This High Marshal may well be the same person in both accounts, with many centuries of time spent in the Warp while transiting from one warzone to the next. Not that it would be unheard of for a knight to take his teacher's name in order to carry on his work, ofc.

Or it could be the Black Templars are just hopeless at keeping records... The Jerulas Crusade Ludoldus is said to be a veteran of the bloody Vinculus Crusade - that hasn't happened yet!

barnowl wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

And not all Chaos marines are warp dwellers. The blood Gorgons, with a 6000 yr old chapter master live in a spacehulk in real space. Sort of a Chaos version of the Phalanx.

He can't be that old, the Chapter isn't even that old. The Blood Gorgons were one of the Cursed Founding Chapters, which took place in M36.

 Psienesis wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

And not all Chaos marines are warp dwellers. The blood Gorgons, with a 6000 yr old chapter master live in a spacehulk in real space. Sort of a Chaos version of the Phalanx.

He can't be that old, the Chapter isn't even that old. The Blood Gorgons were one of the Cursed Founding Chapters, which took place in M36.

He can because of the wa ... oh no wait, he can't

It also depends on what you consider alive as well. Dreadnoughts and Contemptors can be multi-thousands of years old. Isnt that one Space Puppy HQ dreadnought from the Heresy era?

 Jimsolo wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they sent injured marines to train as TechMarines, since pilot or mechanic positions might require less combat ability.

Pilots would not be a good place to put old marines, as pilots require a high level of G Force tolerance and fast hand/eye coordination. This is one of the arguments around having female pilots in combat as the female body is bettered suited (on average) to pulling Gs than the male body. A marine who is slowing down and becoming less physically capable is not going to make a good pilot, he might make a good hearse driver for all of the guys he gets killed because he passes out though.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they sent injured marines to train as TechMarines, since pilot or mechanic positions might require less combat ability.

Pilots would not be a good place to put old marines, as pilots require a high level of G Force tolerance and fast hand/eye coordination. This is one of the arguments around having female pilots in combat as the female body is bettered suited (on average) to pulling Gs than the male body. A marine who is slowing down and becoming less physically capable is not going to make a good pilot, he might make a good hearse driver for all of the guys he gets killed because he passes out though.

I don't think the same would apply for Space Marines and wouldn't their Power armour and its systems make up for the shortfall, if there is any?

I have found reference to a Space Marine dying of Old Age. True it is accelerated by interaction with the Hrud, but it says old age.

Age of Darkness P322
... Zolan's hearts stopped beating aboard the Stormbird, minutes after extraction. Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching lesser Damantyne.