So, I have seen many posts on here and other forums that attempt to attribute a whole lot to the Alpha legion. Everything from stated things from books all the way up to outlandish claims like Omegon is really Janus from the grey knights, Cypher is really Alpherius (a theory someone posted from a long time ago). It is getting a little ridiculous and the concept of the covert independent insurgent has gotten almost to the point of caricature. In my opinion the extent to which people have, and in many cases in serious legitimate attempts at connecting different ambiguities, have made the legion a joke. This wide conjecture is primarily due to the mysterious and Behind-the-scenes nature of the legions pre and post heresy. I know that GW has intentionally left the fluff ambiguous, but what do we know is concretely attributed to the alpha legion, and how much can we realistically attribute to them that hasn't been specifically stated?
I've not heard the Cypher is Alpharius one and that's nonsense. The only theory I've really heard about them is that Omegon is Janus which is very plausible. I don't think they're that silly, the whole point of them is that no one really knows for sure anything about them, and I don't see a problem with that. The problem is in the writing, now everything seems to be an AL plot, and some people seem to have got the idea that they're infallible and capable of anything (someone said 'they have no equals in the other legions' which isn't true). They do things differently to the other legions but there's pros and cons to their method of war. They make mistakes from time to time like all legions do.
There is a difference in the AL and the other examples. The blood ravens may be known for stealing artifacts, but it doesn't define them. same for Orks. Their gestalt psyker field is interesting but it isn't the first thing you think of when you think of orks. also you can discuss orks without bringing that up. With AL the entire concept is based on the idea of total war meets insurgent, non traditional tactics, and you never know if the AL is behind it or not. And for some of their established fluff it is cool and interesting, but the sheer volume of serious conjecture over their accomplishments is too much. it has been taken too far i think.
Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.
KhorneIsLove wrote: Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.
I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.
I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.
KhorneIsLove wrote: Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.
I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.
I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.
Whoever posited that Cypher is Alpharius doesn't have a very good grasp on established fluff. That's a ridiculous assertion. That being said, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as widespread/negatively impacting as you think. Most of the Ancient Aliens-style Alpha Legion blaming is done in a tongue-in-cheek, we-know-it's-not-really-like-that-but-it's-so-absurdly-hilarious-that-we-say-it-anyways manner. It's not meant to be serious, so you shouldn't take it seriously. People who blame everything on the Alpha Legion in a sincere manner usually have little concept of the actual 40k fluff, in my experience. Some people have just taken to the idea that the Alpha Legion are an Illuminati-esque organization, which I don't think was ever the point.
Furthermore, there is some merit to the idea that Omegon founded the Grey Knights. It's not some random idea that came out of nowhere because there was an empty spot in the lore; there's some established hints that make it a harmless, not completely unfounded theory.
The "Alpha Legion did it" jokes have become like the Chuck Norris jokes of 40k; always there, but losing their comedic value due to overuse. I don't let Chuck Norris jokes rustle my jimmies, so I would recommend you do the same with regards to AL jokes.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a bad joke.
You should really stop drinking that Haterade. It's fattening! That picture is hilarious, though.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a bad joke.
You should really stop drinking that Haterade. It's fattening! That picture is hilarious, though.
You should be the one most upset. After all, it's your favorite Legion's fluff that's being ruined.
I haven't played Alpha Legion since 2nd Edition. When they were still awesome.
KhorneIsLove wrote: Given the romanticized view people hold of RL clandestine organizations I think it fits fluff and fan theory wise. They obviously aren't involved in everything people claim they are. Gives them a nice miasma of misinformation to go with the bogeyman/space illuminati feel.
I agree that some of it is necessary and definitely adds a mystique to the whole thing, which is good.
I don't want to come off as just being the guy who wants to rain on AL's Meme Parade, i created the thread to try to collect stuff that is genuinely attributable to AL, and maybe look at some of the less outlandish claims that could be plausible. like the whole White scars interaction, first with the orks and then with the ever changing cordon, those were really cool and definitively attributable to AL.
What was AL's interaction with the White Scars?
In Scars Jaghatai Khan was sent by Horus (apparently with no good reason) to the Chondax System to find off some Waaggh!, away from the council of Nikea, where the Khan would have stood with his friend, Magnus the Red. After the campaign on Condax, the Khan was chilling (mostly because of the Warp Storms he couldn't go anywhere) when two brawling fleets, the remaining SW fleet after Prospero and an unusually large AL fleet, came into his fleet's sensor range. The AL fleet kept the WS from engaging nor escaping. The Khan was pissed that the AL fleet did not hail the Khan, so he ordered a surprise attack on the AL, and found out many of the AL battle barges were disguised cargo ships. The Khan got a message for aid from Russ, but Khan wasn't sure what's happening because the WS fleet received contradicting messages about Istavaan V and Prospero, and opted to do nothing. After the Khan figured out that Horus had turned against the Emperor, the WS comm is cleared and Dorn sent his regards and told the Khan to head for Terra immediately, the Khan said "Screw you guise, I'm going to Prospero" to both Dorn and Russ and left for Prospero.
It was reveal in a psychic conversation between some WS lodge members and possibly Erebus that the Alpha Legion's presence was not part of the Warmaster's plan, and the Khan believed that the Alpha Legion was there to push the WS back to Terra (such is the reason why they held the WS fleet and distorted the incoming messages to WS until Dorn's order came through). Of course what the Alpha Legion really wanted is anybody's guess, or, if it was the Alpharius' order to do so or Omegan's, or that if Alpharius is really Alpharius, or Omegan, or the Battle Barges are Omegan, or... oh heke, the joke is getting really old.
I've always chosen to kind of merge the old and newer fluff. Due to ease of which Alpharius was convinced by a group of xenos with an advanced 3D TV to betray his father, I've always seen the hubris and pride of the Alpha Legion as what greased that particular wheel. The old fluff says that the Alpha Legion turned to prove they were the best SMs, starting with Guilliman alienating Alpharius through poor social skills and setting him down that particular road of consternation and feeling of unappreciation, eventually resulting in their galactic guerilla warfare.
Yeah, I kind of miss the Alpha Legion = martial pride thing that existed once upon a time. The current "I'ma gotta secret" thing is kinda bleah for me.
Understand my disappointment; much of my persona Imperial fluff stems from an older view of the Alphas, who are key players in my stories. With the change much of what I wrote was undone - hence my bias.
Under current popular fluff you'll never know what the Alphas have done. They take credit for actions of others, blame others for their own work and spread lies about everyone with fervor.
Sounds like the Alphas have become Tzeentchian pawns to me, scheming just to scheme because it's their nature. And no, you can't fool the Architect of Fate as some Alphaphiles claim; he's a god who can see into your soul and manipulate your moral weaknesses. If you think you're acting on your own behalf, think again; You are the puppet that dances to Tzeentch's tune. If the K-sons are a manifestation of Tzeentch's magical aspect, the Alphas are a perfect manifestation of his scheming side.
I think the Alphas can't even keep their own lies straight at some point. As currently presented they're neither heroic nor sympathetic, devolving into a pack of congenital liars. All because they decided to believe the lies told to them by a secret society? Really?
I find claims that they're actually loyal to the Emperor to be unconvincing. If they were still loyal at some point the Alphas would have to realize the very future they were trying to change had come true because of their actions. Had they remained loyal the Heresy would have been easily crushed and the Emperor quite probably would not have become a corpse-god. They had to realize they had been played. When the Alphas could not prevent the outcome of the Horus Heresy why did they continue down the Chaos path? Why not withdraw into the shadows and try to change the Imperium through covert action? Why not work against the forces that had made fools of them? Because they 'couldn't be forgiven'? Really? Covert ops guys don't think in terms of forgiveness, only outcomes.
Without Alpha perfidy the Imperium would have recovered more quickly from the Heresy and could have been guided away from a stagnant bureaucratic theocracy into something better. But no, they stuck with Chaos, cause... reasons (known only unto the Alphas themselves).
Pity, they had such potential, too. A Legion that is subtle and elegant, with every move measured and economical, would have been a nice contrast to the flamboyant drama that characterizes most of the other Legions. But alas no, just another caricature.
There are plenty of other Legions who had special ops aspects as part of their makeup. Night Lords turned secret terror ops into a vicious science. Thousand Sons had their Hidden Ones, who were more spec ops than standard scouts. Word Bearers had persuasive psyops (proselytizing) down to a fine art. The Alphas would have done better to emphasize some aspect of spec ops instead of trying to seize the whole pie for themselves. Everybody likes pie; they shoud have shared the pieces.
Why GW had to take a perfectly satisfactory seed like the Aloha Legion and turn it into something silly and exaggerated escapes me. But there you go.
Whilst I never read or knew about the old Alpha Legion Fluff, I don't believe the new stuff is silly or a joke. How can you fight a Legion when you don't know where they are, what they've done or what they're capable of? I can understand what some people say about other Legions having Spec Ops etc. but I don't believe the Alpha Legion are quite like that.. for example, in modern combat a Spec Ops team such as the SAS goes in and gets stuff done - you still know it's the SAS after the fact and you can attribute their accomplishments accordingly. The Alpha Legion embroil themselves in so much ambiguity and misdirection that you can never be sure of what they can or can't do. In that way they can even inflate their image by having events, not even related to them, possibly attributed to their actions etc.
For a relatively small Legion, they cast a huge footprint across the entire galaxy simply because no-one knows the details. Their biggest accomplishment is developing this reputation which affects so much. Drop a hint that the Alpha Legion is operating in a zone and you'll sow paranoia and dissension, they'll be looking over their shoulders and keeping one eye on their own allies.
Oh look, we're being reinforced by Ultramarines - or are we?
I'm not sure whether the Alpha legion is in fact Loyalist or not, but whatever the case, they are effective at what they do... which is making everyone unsure about what they do.
I like the Alpha Legion's fluff, I do think a lot of people take it to an extreme as a joke though.
Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.
I do think the idea of Omegon being Janus is a very interesting one, one of my favorite potential plot twists.
I would say they were at risk of becoming flanderized if it weren't for the fact every damn legion is flanderized. I love the idea of them planning and scheming large weaving plots and traps, its very un-space marine-like and very Tzeentchian. At times they almost remind me of the Reasonable Marines.
then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype
Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.
Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).
So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.
Of course, given that many normal Alpha Legionaires can pose as Alpharius and so can his brother Omegon, who also doesn't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with him, one possible explanation for this is all these incidents of Alpharius betraying everyone are because it's all different Alphariuses doing it.
While things like "Cypher is Alpharius!" or "Abaddon is Alpharius!" etc are just jokes and should not be taken seriously, these jokes were born about because the actual official fluff is honestly not that far off with how "OMG MYSTERIOUS was it the Alpha Legion that did it!?" it is.
GKTiberius wrote: then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype
Wait so, if they were Tzeenchian that would be fine, but because they aren't it isn't? I mean I can understand not liking them but that seems a bit if a double standard. AL actually have goals, we just don't know them. Tzeench has really arbitrary goals or just likes to mess things up for no reason. He can't have an end goal purely because that end goal couldn't last, because he'd have to change it. AL have an end goal, that's undisclosed.
I find claims that they're actually loyal to the Emperor to be unconvincing. If they were still loyal at some point the Alphas would have to realize the very future they were trying to change had come true because of their actions. Had they remained loyal the Heresy would have been easily crushed and the Emperor quite probably would not have become a corpse-god. They had to realize they had been played. When the Alphas could not prevent the outcome of the Horus Heresy why did they continue down the Chaos path? Why not withdraw into the shadows and try to change the Imperium through covert action? Why not work against the forces that had made fools of them? Because they 'couldn't be forgiven'? Really? Covert ops guys don't think in terms of forgiveness, only outcomes.
Without Alpha perfidy the Imperium would have recovered more quickly from the Heresy and could have been guided away from a stagnant bureaucratic theocracy into something better. But no, they stuck with Chaos, cause... reasons (known only unto the Alphas themselves).
Actually, the reason they side with Chaos is because someone, I forget who, probably the eldar, reveal to Alpharius/Omegon that the Chaos Gods want Horus to fail, because the emotions of the current Imperium are making them stronger, and a dying Imperium will create even more never-ending bloodshed. However,should Chaos actually win, humanity would die out and the emotions the Gods draw their power from would cease. Therefore, The AL try to get Chaos to win by joining Horus's side, and swinging the balance in his favour, thus defeating the Chaos Gods at the cost of humankind.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, referring to OP, The Alpha legion is literally a full blown meme to the extent of Tactical Genius (and that's coming from me). |
Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
Oh god why
Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.
Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
Oh god why
Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.
Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
Oh god why
Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.
Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.
Speaking of which, aside from Legion and a book on dickering up the RG, has there been any new AL fluff come down the pipeline?
The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.
Sadly, yes. Graham McNeill "surprised" everybody with a novella where the Alpha Legion are secretly Iron Hands. And Abnett surprised everybody with some Ultramarines who were secretly Alpha Legion. And there was a short story in Age of Darkness where a World Eater was secretly Alpha Legion, and then another short story where, not kidding, Alpha Legion were secretly Alpha Legion.
Otto Weston wrote: Whilst I never read or knew about the old Alpha Legion Fluff, I don't believe the new stuff is silly or a joke. How can you fight a Legion when you don't know where they are, what they've done or what they're capable of?
It's silly because the Alpha Legion are supposed to be Space Marines, but they don't do any Space Marine stuff. And everything they do do is ridiculous and not believable. Their fluff is a series of cheap plot hooks and amateur gak-show writing where everyone at the Black Library seems to be in an arms race to write the worst, most unrealistic, goofiest Alpha Legion story possible.
The Alpha Legion's greatest deception is making everyone think they are everywhere, when in fact they are barely anywhere.
Although if I wanted to be cool, I'd probably make something up about how the leader of my Goliath gang is secretly an Alpha Legion marine without his armor, and sporting a mohawk, secretly doing blah, blah...
Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.
Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).
So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.
Exactly!
Everyone seems to forget this!
I don't think the Alpha Legion believe everything the Cabal has told/shown them - but I believe they're in over their heads.
Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.
Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).
So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.
Exactly!
Everyone seems to forget this!
I don't think the Alpha Legion believe everything the Cabal has told/shown them - but I believe they're in over their heads.
Too clever by half, and all that.
Yeah, they aren't atupid. I don't think they just believed the Cabal like that. I think they have their own motives, but I think they're different depending who in the legion you ask...
I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.
Wyzilla wrote: I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.
Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.
Wyzilla wrote: I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.
Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.
Even entertaining the idea that the Cabal's council may have had truth to it is complete stupidity. They have no reason to tell the truth to Alpharius, not to mention if that was truly their plan, it backfired horribly considering the Eldar now stand on the brink of extinction in M41 should Cadia fall.
Wyzilla wrote: I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.
Only if you assume they blindly went along with it.
Even entertaining the idea that the Cabal's council may have had truth to it is complete stupidity. They have no reason to tell the truth to Alpharius, not to mention if that was truly their plan, it backfired horribly considering the Eldar now stand on the brink of extinction in M41 should Cadia fall.
The Cabal aren't Eldar. There's like one Eldar Autarch in there. I don't see why it's compete stupidity. Information is power, it's at least worth considering it, and they aren't stupid, they wouldn't just follow it as given. We don't even know if they believe it, we don't know anything.
Wasn't Alpharius told that in order for the Imperium to survive he had to join the traitors? If so that really justifies how during the Heresy why he acted "on Horus's side", but meanwhile was running his own sorties and missions that Horus didn't know/understand.
Alpharius eventually betrayed those guys who told him he had to join the traitors for the Imperium to survive (actually, NOT for the Imperium to survive. It was for Chaos to be destroyed, and humanity along with it).
So basically Alpharius right now is betraying EVERYONE. This continues in later stories where he's continually screwing with everyone, including himself.
Of course, given that many normal Alpha Legionaires can pose as Alpharius and so can his brother Omegon, who also doesn't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with him, one possible explanation for this is all these incidents of Alpharius betraying everyone are because it's all different Alphariuses doing it.
Which actually would make sense, as the Alpha Legion is just as Tzeentchian as the Thousand Sons, and would likely be quite vulnerable to Tzeentchian corruption. Probably, the Alpha Legion has splintered into thousands of different groups, all working towards different agendas, and by the end of the Horus Heresy, you had seven different Alphariuses all trying to achieve dominance of the Alpha Legion. Meanwhile, the real Alpharius is killed by Omegon over the path that they're heading in, and Omegon creates the Grey Knights.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah. It's the Cabal who tell them. Although, we don't know if 1. The Cabal were actually telling the truth, or 2. The AL belive them. They might be following their own agenda. We don't really know the goal of Alpharius, and Omegons looks to be different too.
Oh god why
Except that was in Legion, the first modern fluff for the AL. So the meme hadn't been played out then.
Also, you can't exactly blame the writers for how far the readers take something. I find the portrayals of the AL in the FW and BL fiction to be fine, it's people on here and other sites that are annoying about them.
Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent spoilers.
Spoiler:
Then you have the Serpent Beneath and the Seventh Serpent (We've almost become caricatures on par with the Space Wolves) where there's clearly Loyalist Alpha Legionnaires, led by Omegon.
GKTiberius wrote: then make them tzeenchian and make that part of the fluff. This ambiguous are they, arent they, who are they, they are everyone... thing doesn't facilitate anything other than to just be annoying and further the caricature stereotype
Wait so, if they were Tzeenchian that would be fine, but because they aren't it isn't? I mean I can understand not liking them but that seems a bit if a double standard. AL actually have goals, we just don't know them. Tzeench has really arbitrary goals or just likes to mess things up for no reason. He can't have an end goal purely because that end goal couldn't last, because he'd have to change it. AL have an end goal, that's undisclosed.
My assertion was that if they were tzeenchian then the level of misdirection and mysterious crap would make more sense. It would still be ridiculous but at least it would be justified as to why they were like that, and it would make sense. Right now thier fluff seems on the one hand suggests a semi omniscient force that knows what to do when to do it to affect the outcome in their favor (sounds very tzeenchy to me). on the other hand, if we took the level of misdirection and convolution seriously, then the only realistic state that the AL could be in would be a disconnected group of Cells both dormant and active all over the galaxy. I that was the case, and the alpha legionaries were fine with eschewing the normal trappings of traitor marines and CSM in the modern 40k setting, then they would be like modern terrorist organization who operate on a similar structure. This is a perfectly logical and acceptable conclusion in my opinion, however, the disorganized status would mean that there is no one controller or one man pulling all of the strings so everything lines up. They are just lucky and the collective situation presented by these independent actions lends to the illusion of coherency ( which also sounds very tzeenchy) Both of these scenarios justifies and give credence to the over inflates sense of “Just as planned” that the legion has in 40k.
Asking us to believe that the legion is independent, not aligned with chaos, omniscient, can be everywhere at ones, and despite the best efforts of their opponents, they can only lose battles, but not have their schemes foiled or over turned is just insulating as a player and a fan of the fluff. That line of logic leads the reader to believe that the Alpha legion is operating on its own terms, for an unknowable and unaligned goal that is only known to the absolute head of the legion. This leader has the ability to see far reaching schemes and coordinate dozens of complex plans at one time. Such to the extent of this individuals tactical, logistical and strategic genius that should they actually put their talents to a more lasting end could create an empire to rival and surpass that of everything but the old ones of ancient lore.
That is why I would be ok with them being tzeench and why that detail changes everything. It isn’t a double standard as much as an acceptable justification In the fluff.
Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.
Wyzilla wrote: I really, really wish the Alpha Legion would just return to their old Index Astartes background. The Cabal never made sense, and merely makes Alpharius (and/or Omegon) look slowed and incapable of critical thinking.
I thought it made him more considerate of a bigger picture. To me, Alpharius and his legion always looked like petty spies sneaking for the sake of looking clever. The Cabal line actually made me respect them.
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ImAGeek wrote: The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.
Thanks! Other than cameos, are any of those specifically AL stories?
Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.
ImAGeek wrote: Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.
Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.
Alpharius wrote: Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.
In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.
Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.
Alpharius wrote: Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.
In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.
Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.
I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.
That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.
ImAGeek wrote: Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.
Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.
Yeah sorry, Extermination is the third FWHH book, and it has their coverage of the AL in it. Serpent Beneath is very good yeah
Alpharius wrote: Er, the whole point is that the Alpha Legion DON'T believe the Cabal.
In fact, they've already spaced one of the Cabal members, and are working to their own purpose now - whatever that is.
Doesn't that mean they've spent so much time with their convoluted plots they've basically forgotten why they were plotting the stuff in the first place? Would fit with their pre-Heresy disposition and their now apparent fall to Chaos. They already liked to overcomplicate things from the beginning.
I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.
That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.
I think everyone has forgotten their original purpose yeah, and they've just splintered into groups doing their own thing. It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.
Shidank wrote: I'd say it's likely they've schemed themselves into distant corners and forgotten their original purpose set forth when Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.
That said, they seem to still stick to dickering with both the Imperium and Chaos.
They seem to harass the Imperium a lot more often though. They're even helping Abbaddon with his 13th Black Crusade if I recall correctly. They also have mutations and such so I think it's more likely they've been wholly corrupted at this point and any notion of fighting for Imperium is probably self-delusion. Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion.
ImAGeek wrote: I think everyone has forgotten their original purpose yeah, and they've just splintered into groups doing their own thing. It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.
Yea that would make sense given their fluff. Plus they have two Primarchs. How does the Hydra decide what its goals are with that many heads?
Yeah with everyone pulling in different directions it's gonna splinter at some point. Alpharius and Omegon aren't even on the same page, let alone the rest of the legion haha.
ImAGeek wrote: The Serpent Beneath, a short story in the Primarchs, which is excellent; Seventh Serpent, a Novella by Graham McNeill which is eh, they feature in Scars, and I think they're in a story in Seditions Gate which I don't have. And their section in Extermination. They also appear briefly in Unremembered Empire.
Thanks! Other than cameos, are any of those specifically AL stories?
Nothing really happens in Sedition's Gate, some insight into what a Harrowing is. That's about it.
ImAGeek wrote: Yep, Serpent Beneath and the Extermination stuff. Seventh Serpent has them as the antagonists. And the one in Seditions Gate is about them I assume. Scars they feature as antagonists fairly briefly and Unremembered Empire is basically a cameo.
Serpent Beneath looks to be a damn fine read. The others seem to be cameos or generic "red shirt" enemies who are there just to appear threatening and die. Is Extermination part of a larger volume? I'm having trouble finding it.
ImAGeek wrote: Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.
I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.
ImAGeek wrote: Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.
I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.
The Alpha Legion withdrew to the Galactic East during the HH, where they disappeared. One theory is that Alpharius/Omegon reigns over an Empire outside the range of the Astronomican further east than the Galactic East.
It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.
My problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells.
Please look at the context in which I used the word Empire. It was just a phrase, i don't mean an actual empire as a form of government, i mean that his legion is so far reaching and powerful that he has a controlling influence over a majority of the galaxy through the actions of his legion.
ImAGeek wrote: Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.
I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.
The Alpha Legion withdrew to the Galactic East during the HH, where they disappeared. One theory is that Alpharius/Omegon reigns over an Empire outside the range of the Astronomican further east than the Galactic East.
I rather like this theory. Having the Tau as quasi-geographic wall would be handy.
I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.
I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.
Therion wrote: I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.
I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.
In the old WDIA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.
Therion wrote: I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.
I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.
In the old WDIA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.
I suspect that is the case, a random Legionnaire is dead and Alpharius is alive to do whatever it is he is doing. Also, that quote in your bio - where is it from?
Therion wrote: I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.
I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.
In the old WDIA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.
I suspect that is the case, a random Legionnaire is dead and Alpharius is alive to do whatever it is he is doing. Also, that quote in your bio - where is it from?
Vengeful Spirit.
I'm a bit more unsure on whether it's just retconning etc, but I'm definitely not going to say that Alpharius is dead!
Alpha Legion are the answer to everything if the internet is anything to go by.
That time a squad of Space Marines(tm) disappeared to give the protagonist in a novel something to search for - Alpha Legion.
That time a planet rebelled and there wasn't any good plot reason for why? - Alpha Legion
That time we used an entire bog roll in a day? - Alpha Legion
Alpharius wrote: You can blame everyone after Abnett for that overused too easy 'go to'!
I guess I'm not supposed to do this... but...
This.
Abnett's stuff on the Alpha Legion is poor.
Dude, you can't just say that.
That's like asking someone why they're black. It just isn't done. You have to take some mediocre with the genius Abnett has been willing to give us. He was asked to barf exposition on a matter seldom touched on elsewhere in the lore. We can appreciate the effort.
This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!
Poly Ranger wrote: This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!
Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.
Poly Ranger wrote: This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!
Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.
Poly.
Go get him, FBI.
Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!
Poly Ranger wrote: This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!
Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.
Poly.
Go get him, FBI.
Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!
Therion wrote: I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.
I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.
In the old WDIA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.
LEGION SPOILER :
Spoiler:
In Legion, Alpharius actually uses a sword, if it even was Alpharius, I don't know anymore. It might have been the Terminator Elite Captain though, who actually impersonated Omegon during his first encounter with Dinas Chayne and who told him the same sentence ("that's all you get") that the supposed Alpharius (who wields a sword) told that same Dinas Chayne at the very end of the novel.
Poly Ranger wrote: This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!
Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.
Poly.
Go get him, FBI.
Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!
No one listen to the crazy man with the gun.
Also, he has a gun.
I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Darth Bob wrote: I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon
Darth Bob wrote: I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
I think Alpharius Omegon basically pulled the galaxy's biggest double slit experiment. The Cabal's all like, "Dude - Horus or the Emperor? You gotsta choose yer path!" And Alpharius Omegon's like "Watch me bro - I'mma electron it!"
But then they started interfering with each other and everything collapsed.
Darth Bob wrote: I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon
HH3: Extermination puts them at 180,000, at Isstvan III, meaning they were the third largest Legion.
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
Now, this raises a valid point. You said "had", but have we ever seen an actual SIGNIFICANT loss on the part of the Alpha Legion? Assuming they lost half their numbers in the Heresy, they still base in the material realm and would have relatively clean geneseed to create more marines.
Sewing paranoia among the inquisition is a legitimate strategy, but it doesn't mean it's a bluff.
BTW, I am preparing an Alpha Legion army, but I still have doubt over their colour scheme (pre-heresy) : In Legion (and on it's cover) it is said to be purple and silver, while Forge World paints them in a vivid -almost turquoise- blue and most armies I've seen show them in a dark blue. I am kind of lost I must admit.
It doesn't really matter, in all honesty. They've been seen in purple, azure, turquoise... Even a weird reddy pink colour I can't remember the name for; according to Extermination.
Engrenages wrote: BTW, I am preparing an Alpha Legion army, but I still have doubt over their colour scheme (pre-heresy) : In Legion (and on it's cover) it is said to be purple and silver, while Forge World paints them in a vivid -almost turquoise- blue and most armies I've seen show them in a dark blue. I am kind of lost I must admit.
As the others are saying, go crazy. They're even black in some of the older codices.
Mine almost look more like Sons of Horus (I've gone for Stegadon Scale Green with a Coelia Greenshade wash).
And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
Engrenages wrote: And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
I totally agree. Hell, an Imperial Fist army is a fluffier Alpha Legion army than one that's all flashy and covered in Alpha Legion iconography.
I don't think Dynat was overdone though, I think he had enough ornamentation to stand out on the tabletop and to have fun painting and to be worthy of their Character Series, but not too much that it was too busy or overdone.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think Dynat was overdone though, I think he had enough ornamentation to stand out on the tabletop and to have fun painting and to be worthy of their Character Series, but not too much that it was too busy or overdone.
True enough, I watched it again and it's less than I remembered, it's essentially the size of the pauldron that makes it look kinda stubby and it might be related to the photo's point of view. I guess I'm just no fan of this scaled breastplate thing.
Darth Bob wrote: I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
Considering the fact that many of the Alpha Legion DID end up turning to Chaos and that the CSM continued to recruit after the Heresy, I see no reason that the AL couldn't maintain their numbers post-Heresy
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
Now, this raises a valid point. You said "had", but have we ever seen an actual SIGNIFICANT loss on the part of the Alpha Legion? Assuming they lost half their numbers in the Heresy, they still base in the material realm and would have relatively clean geneseed to create more marines.
Sewing paranoia among the inquisition is a legitimate strategy, but it doesn't mean it's a bluff.
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
AL were ruined by the new fluff.In Index astartes we didnt have these "Omegons" or "Alpharius's"We had Alpharius.I am Alpharius.So are you....Or are we Omegon?
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.
It depends how the Imperium estimated their forces when they "wiped them out". If they killed 5000 AL marines believing they were 7000 while they were in reality 30 000, it's not that big a loss, even though the Imperium might believe otherwise (I choosed random numbers for example, it's not meant to match reality of fluff).
Ok, thanks for explaining the AL losses. But, you guys are forgetting the best part of the Alpha Legions: human operatives. The Alpha Legion used human operatives WAY more than Astartes operatives, so it would still stand to reason that they would have cells all over the Imperium, with mostly humans and a few Marines.
I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
Shidank wrote: I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
Engrenages wrote: And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
Eh, being a seven foot tall, clomping, ceramite-encased warrior in powered armor does all that already. If you can get past that suspension of disbelief, then I can't imagine scaly cloaks are going to all of a sudden give you away, lol.
Shidank wrote: I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
Both are HH, though I don't see how that disqualifies them.
And what do you mean with create gene-seed? Any source?
I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
Shidank wrote: I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
I'm asking why you disqualify HH lore when looking for lore about Alpha Legionnaires fighting each other. We KNOW they did. While we don't know how many died of the original 180,000 legionnaires (HH3: Extermination), we can assume from recent books that there must've been quite a few, judging from who were pro-Imperium within the Legion.
The whole thing about the Alpha Legion having the Primarch DNA is undoubtedly an unsolved storyline though, which would be very interesting to know more about.
Shidank wrote: I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
I'm asking why you disqualify HH lore when looking for lore about Alpha Legionnaires fighting each other. We KNOW they did. While we don't know how many died of the original 180,000 legionnaires (HH3: Extermination), we can assume from recent books that there must've been quite a few, judging from who were pro-Imperium within the Legion.
The whole thing about the Alpha Legion having the Primarch DNA is undoubtedly an unsolved storyline though, which would be very interesting to know more about.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
Spoilers from Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent (We're turning into Space Wolves with snakes)
Spoiler:
Firstly, I'm addressing your first statement, where you don't see them fighting each other. I think we spoke past each other.
We KNOW Omegon turned on Alpharius (or very heavily implied), and none of the other Legions had twin Primarchs with different agendas during the Heresy which probably would ensure a pretty bad civil war. We don't know how many Alpha Legionnaires fought for the IoM, but if Sheed Ranko, the Captain of the Lernean Terminators, fought against Alpharius, we can assume there were quite a few. Additionally, we know from Seventh Serpent there were even more Loyalists within the Legion who fought Alpharius (probably) himself.
How long this fight lasted we don't know, but if Janus, who emerged from nowhere at the end of the Heresy (First Chapter Master of the Grey Knights), is Omegon, that might suggest Omegon lost the fight against Alpharius and that the Alpha Legion was cleansed of Loyalist factions. However, we don't know definitely how many died or how long the civil war lasted, but we KNOW they did fight each other.
Edit: And I most definitely disagree with disqualifying the HH-era stuff about the Alpha Legion. If we do that we're left with a measly decade-old Index Astartes article.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
Spoilers from Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent (We're turning into Space Wolves with snakes)
Spoiler:
Firstly, I'm addressing your first statement, where you don't see them fighting each other. I think we spoke past each other.
We KNOW Omegon turned on Alpharius (or very heavily implied), and none of the other Legions had twin Primarchs with different agendas during the Heresy which probably would ensure a pretty bad civil war. We don't know how many Alpha Legionnaires fought for the IoM, but if Sheed Ranko, the Captain of the Lernean Terminators, fought against Alpharius, we can assume there were quite a few. Additionally, we know from Seventh Serpent there were even more Loyalists within the Legion who fought Alpharius (probably) himself.
How long this fight lasted we don't know, but if Janus, who emerged from nowhere at the end of the Heresy (First Chapter Master of the Grey Knights), is Omegon, that might suggest Omegon lost the fight against Alpharius and that the Alpha Legion was cleansed of Loyalist factions. However, we don't know definitely how many died or how long the civil war lasted, but we KNOW they did fight each other.
Edit: And I most definitely disagree with disqualifying the HH-era stuff about the Alpha Legion. If we do that we're left with a measly decade-old Index Astartes article.
It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
I'm not saying it is more than a theory. I'm saying if it is the case, that would give you a potential timeline for the infighting.
Disregarding published and established fluff on the Alpha Legion seems a bit odd to me. We do know they fought each other. I just don't see what you get from denying established canon.
It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
I'm not saying it is more than a theory. I'm saying if it is the case, that would give you a potential timeline for the infighting.
Disregarding published and established fluff on the Alpha Legion seems a bit odd to me. We do know they fought each other. I just don't see what you get from denying established canon.
That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.
What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.
That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.
What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
There is of course nothing wrong with disregarding fluff, as with regards to wh40k canon it can all be considered Imperial propaganda. Hell, I think certain forum members disregard everything from Legion onwards, but they are honest about it. However, you say you don't take into account a book and short story, then claim you're not taking ignoring fluff. You disqualify HH books, and then say a fluff-documented civil war within the Alpha Legion is inconsequential. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue with that; it'd be like dropping what happened on Davin and then blaming the Emperor for sending the Legions after Horus. And while almost all Legions had infighting, none of these rebel factions were led by a Primarch.
I'm not saying the Grey Knights theoretically would have been created for Omegon, rather that if he lost the civil war against Alpharius, he returned to the Imperium and was elevated to Chapter Master by the Emperor. Obviously pure conjecture. It's besides the point either way.
That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.
What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
There is of course nothing wrong with disregarding fluff, as with regards to wh40k canon it can all be considered Imperial propaganda. Hell, I think certain forum members disregard everything from Legion onwards, but they are honest about it. However, you say you don't take into account a book and short story, then claim you're not taking ignoring fluff. You disqualify HH books, and then say a fluff-documented civil war within the Alpha Legion is inconsequential. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue with that; it'd be like dropping what happened on Davin and then blaming the Emperor for sending the Legions after Horus. And while almost all Legions had infighting, none of these rebel factions were led by a Primarch.
I'm not saying the Grey Knights theoretically would have been created for Omegon, rather that if he lost the civil war against Alpharius, he returned to the Imperium and was elevated to Chapter Master by the Emperor. Obviously pure conjecture. It's besides the point either way.
If you want to oversell and not expect to be corrected, you're going to have a bad day here. You want to read a snippet where an Eldar plays Pokemon and convince us that all Eldar play Pokemon when that's not only wildly inaccurate and unfounded, but just ignorant and untrue. Your one exception is not biblical law and does nothing to dig yourself out of the hole you dug yourself by bringing Janus into this.
I'll take a moment to refute your claims and leave it at that:
1) "You are denying canon" : No. I'm saying that your story doesn't add up to the Alpha Legion being wiped out in 40k. Frankly, it doesn't. It's silly to try and sell it that way. Just please stop. It's weird.
2) Omegon being Janus means that the period of time you reference in those books took place before the battle of Terra and that all Alpha Legion infighting you witnessed was held to a very VERY small timeline and unless you saw the massive sweeping losses of life necessary to support your claim of the Alpha Legion not having significant numbers in 40k, I'd say you talked yourself out the door on that one. This is based on a theory, though, so we all have to take it with a grain of salt.
3) The times they've been declared wiped out are laughable plot points meant to drive home how little the Imperium knows and how effectively the Alpha Legion sows misinformation. It is in no way meant to indicate diminished numbers. That you missed this or willfully ignored it is...again...weird.
4) You actively dismissed the DoW Alpha Legionnaires as irrelevant author drivel, yet refuse to allow anyone else to do the same. They were propped up as generic Chaos Marines in DoW, so yes. Dismiss them. They demonstrated the same schism as any legion in the books you reference. Dismiss this, as it does not pertain to their numbers in 40k in a significant way when weighed with everything else we know(real space base, geneseed stock, misinformation, thousands of years to recruit, infiltration, etc. etc. etc.)
5) Looking back, it seems more like you were trying to shoehorn your way into the conversation without actually contributing anything but snark. The weirdness is strong in you, my friend.
We'll agree to disagree. I say the evidence supports a near-legion strength Alpha Legion in 40k regardless of GK origins. You can say otherwise and go your own way.
Let's call this thread spam complete for now. I invite you to PM if you feel you were unjustly dismissed here.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a very good joke.
If you want to oversell and not expect to be corrected, you're going to have a bad day here. You want to read a snippet where an Eldar plays Pokemon and convince us that all Eldar play Pokemon when that's not only wildly inaccurate and unfounded, but just ignorant and untrue. Your one exception is not biblical law and does nothing to dig yourself out of the hole you dug yourself by bringing Janus into this.
I'll take a moment to refute your claims and leave it at that:
What? Janus is just one of theories. You are really hung up on that.
1) "You are denying canon" : No. I'm saying that your story doesn't add up to the Alpha Legion being wiped out in 40k. Frankly, it doesn't. It's silly to try and sell it that way. Just please stop. It's weird.
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.
Where are you getting these quotes from? I said sources of losses were three occasions when the IoM thought they'd wiped them out and the civil war we know happened. These events suggest they lost quite a few soldiers. They were 180,000 before the Heresy, and an unknown amount after.
2) Omegon being Janus means that the period of time you reference in those books took place before the battle of Terra and that all Alpha Legion infighting you witnessed was held to a very VERY small timeline and unless you saw the massive sweeping losses of life necessary to support your claim of the Alpha Legion not having significant numbers in 40k, I'd say you talked yourself out the door on that one. This is based on a theory, though, so we all have to take it with a grain of salt.
I've never made that claim. I believe they have significant numbers, and I think they are undoubtedly the largest unified force of Astartes out there, just not that they have been able to remain at Legion strength. Where are you getting these quotes from?!
3) The times they've been declared wiped out are laughable plot points meant to drive home how little the Imperium knows and how effectively the Alpha Legion sows misinformation. It is in no way meant to indicate diminished numbers. That you missed this or willfully ignored it is...again...weird.
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.
It's implied that they must have lost some amount of soldiers, I'm making no other claim. The amounts we don't know, but I hardly think they'd consider them wiped out by killing a handful.
4) You actively dismissed the DoW Alpha Legionnaires as irrelevant author drivel, yet refuse to allow anyone else to do the same. They were propped up as generic Chaos Marines in DoW, so yes. Dismiss them. They demonstrated the same schism as any legion in the books you reference. Dismiss this, as it does not pertain to their numbers in 40k in a significant way when weighed with everything else we know(real space base, geneseed stock, misinformation, thousands of years to recruit, infiltration, etc. etc. etc.)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And the Alpha Legion warbands of Carron and Voldorius, which were completely destroyed.
Yeah, let's not mention Carron or any other DoW Alpha Legionnaire ever again.
I've joked about never talking about the DoW Alpha Legion stuff because the characters and story is so incredibly bad. Obviously it's canon, but I find it hard to take fluff-raping Khornate Sorcerers very seriously. But alas, there's now precedence.
5) Looking back, it seems more like you were trying to shoehorn your way into the conversation without actually contributing anything but snark. The weirdness is strong in you, my friend.
We'll agree to disagree. I say the evidence supports a near-legion strength Alpha Legion in 40k regardless of GK origins. You can say otherwise and go your own way.
Let's call this thread spam complete for now. I invite you to PM if you feel you were unjustly dismissed here.
Seriously, I don't care what fluff you include in your version of wh40k, I was offering evidence to suggest that they might indeed have lost a lot of SMs. Though why so hung up on the Grey Knights?
I think the idea that early Knights Errant (marines clad in bland grey) were created from geneseed of alpha legion has some merit. I will cite two sources. I have not read the two short stories aforementioned, for the record. In Extermination, the alpha were built up to be used as an internal police force for the imperium. Working stealthily to get the information needed to be returned to Big E or Malc. At which point they either executed a judgement or sent the early night lords to correct this issue (HH2). Yes, i know that was a slightly circuitous and long winded answer, back on topic. In the newest Garro audio drama (worth listening to), an imperial desk jockey finds the paper trail to a moon in the Sol System. Garro meets said paper pusher and is convinced to tag along. He is tracked down during the course of his time on previously stated moon by marines wearing armour similarly painted as his (bland grey). With how he had trouble tracking them as he was being tracked, I feel the stealth nature and clandestine feel could give credence to certain ideas that Alpha seed could have been used. This could also lend some extra credence to the idea that a loyalist senior member of that legion could have been the first leader. My only reason to support this claim is this...
The HHG book series is 30+ books in with 4 and soon 5 playable books available and SEVERAL audio dramas ready to listen to, with currently 7~6 years left in the chronology of the Heresy, and a character named Janus has not been introduced in ANY book under any legion banner. I personally do not feel that Omegon is said character. Reason for statement is that currently (I haven't read the two short stories (REMINDER)) Omegon was not shown to be a psyker. I did just double check my copy of HH3, Alpharius was not either. So that is the only valid based statement why Omegon was not the first chapter master of the grey, due to their whole force are psykers. Unless he was shown to be a psyker in those two short stories.
Spaz431 wrote: I think the idea that early Knights Errant (marines clad in bland grey) were created from geneseed of alpha legion has some merit. I will cite two sources. I have not read the two short stories aforementioned, for the record. In Extermination, the alpha were built up to be used as an internal police force for the imperium. Working stealthily to get the information needed to be returned to Big E or Malc. At which point they either executed a judgement or sent the early night lords to correct this issue (HH2). Yes, i know that was a slightly circuitous and long winded answer, back on topic. In the newest Garro audio drama (worth listening to), an imperial desk jockey finds the paper trail to a moon in the Sol System. Garro meets said paper pusher and is convinced to tag along. He is tracked down during the course of his time on previously stated moon by marines wearing armour similarly painted as his (bland grey). With how he had trouble tracking them as he was being tracked, I feel the stealth nature and clandestine feel could give credence to certain ideas that Alpha seed could have been used. This could also lend some extra credence to the idea that a loyalist senior member of that legion could have been the first leader. My only reason to support this claim is this...
The HHG book series is 30+ books in with 4 and soon 5 playable books available and SEVERAL audio dramas ready to listen to, with currently 7~6 years left in the chronology of the Heresy, and a character named Janus has not been introduced in ANY book under any legion banner. I personally do not feel that Omegon is said character. Reason for statement is that currently (I haven't read the two short stories (REMINDER)) Omegon was not shown to be a psyker. I did just double check my copy of HH3, Alpharius was not either. So that is the only valid based statement why Omegon was not the first chapter master of the grey, due to their whole force are psykers. Unless he was shown to be a psyker in those two short stories.
Oh, Janus is not Omegon. I ran with his suggestion to prove that it wasn't viable as a defense simply because it reinforced my own point for him to try.
The "Omegon is Janus" theory has so many holes in it, you could confuse it for a fishing net.
I just find it far too convenient/honestly lazy writing for them to push it in that direction.
It's so easy to break apart, but in one book the BL writers could make it canon. It's just the way it works in this universe. We can hope for a better quality of story, but our dreams are so often dashed on the rocky shores of GW.
FWIW I always liked the original Alpha Legion fluff, how they were the last legion so were always trying to prove themselves to their brothers, and that Alpharius was originally swayed because IIRC he looked up to Horus and swore his loyalty, so he felt that he would follow the Warmaster first. It fit perfectly, that was also the reason they were the ALPHA legion, because they wanted to be #1.
This later twin primarchs, hand in everything, are they good or evil stuff is lousy writing IMHO.
That's not far off the mark from my own thinking. While I like the intrigue of the possibility of them being the first legion created and hidden away until the end, the twin primarch storyline smacks of peacocking at this stage of the story.
locarno24 wrote: Also note that the Alpha Legion have whatever part of the Raven Guard's Astartes 2.0 project they stole during the events of Deliverance Lost.
It's quite possible they can replace losses faster than any other legion if they wish to.
This.
This is my primary argument against their numbers decreasing by a significant enough margin for them to be counted at less than half legion strength.
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