Original Post wrote:I've been pondering a Daemon Factory since the release of 7th Edition. I like summoning things to the board, it's just a strategy and style of play that appeals to me. I played Undead in Fantasy and I run Scarab Farms with Necrons. Now I want to take it a step further and run a Daemon Factory in 40K.
I reread Hollismason's If you're having Daemon problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but the warp aint one thread and decided on the fielding 4 heralds of Tzeench (lvl3) and 4 Squads of Pink Horrors (18 models each). The problem is I have zero experience fielding Daemons, and I know I can summong the bigger, badder stuff, so I can't decide what else I should take beyond that.
Anyone with experience playing Daemons, and running a Daemon Factory list in particular, have any advice they would like to share ?
One note, I am partial to Tzeench and Slaanesh forces.
I started this thread when I started my Chaos Daemons army, and have continued it throughout their evolution. If you have any questions or comments about Daemon Factories I'd love to ehar them. The people following this thread have been insightful and greatly helpful with this project.
Original Recipe Tried and True List
Spoiler:
Fateweaver - For Warp Storm mitigation and re-roll
Heralds of Tzeentch lvl3 x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Each Herald has a 50% chance to get each spell from Maelifc. 4 of them usually grants an excellent mix of Sacrifice, Incursion, and Possession)
Pink Horrors (12) x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Nothing is better than Pink Horrors becoming Greater Daemons, or at least summoning more Pink Horrors. Also, these are the wounds you sacrifice to sumon more lvl 2 Tzeentch Heralds.
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch x2 - Yoiur heavy hitters of the list
New and Sexy Dual CAD List
Spoiler:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch lvl3 (x4) - All Maelific
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc lvl3 (x3) - All Maelific, all 3 with Exalted Rewards
Pink Horrors (12) x4
Screamers of Tzeentch x9
Screamers of Tzeentch x8
Dropped the Daemon Princes for Screamers. The Screamers jet bike nature and slashing attacks allow them to a turn 1 threat to the enemy. They are ridiculously mobile and their Lamprey's bite rule makes them a threat to vehicles. If one of your heralds on a disc get's Cursed Earth (50% chance each herald) it opens up the combination with the Grimoire (Exalted Reward) for 2++ saves.
The list starts the game with 7 Psykers who each have 50% odds of drawing Possesssion, and 4 units of Horrors with a 16% chance at getting Possession, for an average of 4 Possessions turn 1 with 33+d6 warp charges to pull it off.
Those Psykers, who don't get possessed, and have Sacrifce (50% odds), can summon Lvl2 Heralds, who have a 33% chance each of having possession
Are you sure you want to try this? you need a Lot of models to make it work. I've put together 4 GDs 4 heralds, and forty infantry but still didn't feel like enough. need more nettes..
anyway, Heralds and horrors seem to work for WC but you get no mobility.. Something like a bunker/bastion would help, as you can keep your WC generators secure in there.
FMCs can then do the summoning work, flying around to get some range.
Fateweaver now gets one roll on maelific with each head, which I think makes him a strong choice, given his other benefits.
But I personally like the reliability of the CSM daemon prince with spell familiar. A black legion version can also use the last memory to get more WC.
A new tool in the summoning repertoire is the legacy of the death of kasr lutien. This gives a 12" aura of rerolling casting dice for each hull point. Not sure what the best vehicle is for this (fellblade has 12 HP... hmm) thinking land raider as fateweaver/princes/belakopr can hide behind it as well.
Yeah the biggest hurdle you are going to face with the Daemon Factory is the model count however if you are going for full one feth every thing I'm getting 24 + Summoning dice , I'd suggest in building a Void Shield Generator terrain piece.
Similar to the way that heavy FMC lists use them you want them mainly to protect your units on the first turn as well as to protect those large squads of Pink Horrors.
I kind of feel this is the strongest version of the Army as it protects your troops and protects you for that first turn. You then can fly around summoning Daemons to your heart content.
You definitively want Fateweaver + 4 Heralds , that way you can take Tzeentch Daemon Princes in order to get some shooting into the army. Fateweaver now has access to the Daemonology tree so that's a great choice.
It depends on your points but the following is a summoning beast of an army.
Fateweaver
4 Heralds of Tzeentch w/ Discs , Portaglyph
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
H. Support
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince
I would also suggest the above mentioned Relic from Los t and the Damned, I haven't played it yet but let me go look at lost and the Damned and what's available to take it.
Okay I checked the Lost and Damned book to see what was available in regards to the reroll , unfortunately it's only available for Chaos Space Marine vehicles. I'm not sure what you'd take it's 1 dice per hull point can be rerolled per.
Personally I would always take some kind of hard hitting element in a summoning army.
The units you summon are small and come into play piecemeal. They can be game winning, but they are also fairly fragile and take a while to get onto the board in any great numbers.
If you don't want to spam DPs then I would certainly get 3 soul grinders in there to help control the board whilst you summon.
Screamers where your tzheralds can hang out work well too.
Captyn_Bob wrote:Are you sure you want to try this? you need a Lot of models to make it work.
The idea of buying that many models would make my head spin. I have nearly 100 demon models already from D&D and Mageknight, and as long as they are painted pink, I won't get any serious objections to fielding them as Pink Horrors.
I also sculpt a little, cast a lot, and customize constatnly. The plan is to use this army as an exercise to push my scuplting towards something usefull.
Something like a bunker/bastion would help, as you can keep your WC generators secure in there.
Build Daemon Fortification. Check !
FMCs can then do the summoning work, flying around to get some range.
I originally thought of a Greater Daemon of Tzeench and 3 Flying Daemon Princes of Tzeench, but it didn't leave me with any points to really add much else, beyond the heralds and horrors, and that's when I decided to ask for advice.
Fateweaver now gets one roll on maelific with each head, which I think makes him a strong choice, given his other benefits.
I wasn't sure about Fateweaver. I've read strategy articles where he was either a lynchpin unit or considered highly overated. Still too much of a Daemon Novice to have my own opinion on him yet.
Hollismason wrote:Yeah the biggest hurdle you are going to face with the Daemon Factory is the model count however if you are going for full one feth every thing I'm getting 24 + Summoning dice , I'd suggest in building a Void Shield Generator terrain piece.
Tzeench must already be smiling upon me
Spoiler:
Although, truth be told I'll probably build a more magical and Daemon themed version for this army now.
Similar to the way that heavy FMC lists use them you want them mainly to protect your units on the first turn as well as to protect those large squads of Pink Horrors.
I kind of feel this is the strongest version of the Army as it protects your troops and protects you for that first turn. You then can fly around summoning Daemons to your heart content.
You definitively want Fateweaver + 4 Heralds , that way you can take Tzeentch Daemon Princes in order to get some shooting into the army. Fateweaver now has access to the Daemonology tree so that's a great choice.
So I guess my gut fealing on the DPs was good. Just looks like Fateweaver over the Greater Deamon I was orignally thinking of.
You mention Shooting on the DPs. Any particular load out, or using Psychic Powers ?
It depends on your points but the following is a summoning beast of an army.
Fateweaver
4 Heralds of Tzeentch w/ Discs , Portaglyph
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
12 Horrors
H. Support
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince
That was pretty close to what I was originally imagining, so this is definitely doable.
Is there a particular reason the Horrors are only 12 models strong ?
Big Blind Bill wrote:Personally I would always take some kind of hard hitting element in a summoning army.
The units you summon are small and come into play piecemeal. They can be game winning, but they are also fairly fragile and take a while to get onto the board in any great numbers.
If you don't want to spam DPs then I would certainly get 3 soul grinders in there to help control the board whilst you summon.
Screamers where your tzheralds can hang out work well too.
Soild advice.
I have no issue spamming as many DPs or Souldgrinders I can fit into the list. I love the bigger models.
Hmmm...
Fateweaver, because you're running daemons and he's a source of "reliability" and brings 4 WC to the table while he's at it.
4x Heralds, preferably of Tzeentch, because they're the most efficient WC generators. At least 1 with grimoure (since you're taking fateweaver anyway and it's just that good) since you want to protect your heralds from T1.
minimum of 2x 11 horrors
1 pack of screamers for the heralds to hide in.
1233 "minimum", giving 20 + d6WC isn't terrible, but now you've got 1 relatively fragile FMC, 1 deathstar without Hit and Run and 2 small T3 troops units, and you're only really getting 3 more units a turn, and small ones at that.
You can summon in a herald with the portalglyph, so don't waste points on that. Try not to cast stuff with the guy holding the grimoure since you don't want to kill him with perils, and when throwing 6-7 dice at each summon attempt, any fantasy player worth their salt can tell you that double 6's turn up fairly often.
What to do with your extra points?
More horrors is an option, as is allying in stuff to help you go first or sieze to protect your heralds as barrage will end them fairly quickly and thunderfires are common. Also greatly helps bubble wrapping against drop pod alpha strikes against stuff that matters, like your heralds.
Nurglings are a solid investment at 45 points, if for nothing else other than making anyone toting thunderfire cannons think about shooting them instead of your heralds, while anyone without long range ignores cover blasts is going to have to dig them out the hard way.
You don't have much that actually kills things, so some soul grinders as previously mentioned is an option, as are small units of flamers. Yes, the flamers can be summoned, but they're also cheap and provide target saturation.
Daemon princes are another option who can be dead killy, though I've found they tend to suck up WC to ensure they don't die while being killy.
CSM allied ML3 Sorceror (ML4 with last memory) with min cultists is also an option to open up other schools, though keeping him alive can be tricky. Add a 'drake for the lolz.
You could exchange 1 herald of tzeentch for a herald of slaneesh on steed and try for telepathy and go looking for invis or shrouded, while mental fortitude can help if you think you're going to pop to combat res and terrify/dominate/shriek are all great against low ld armies. Put with seekers for best results.
Khorne dogs are still a nice pressure unit and can be used to scout block if that's prevalent in your meta.
As for what to summon,
I'm a bit of a fan of Bloodcrushers for some offensive punch, and if they suck up high str fire, good for them. They're not worth 145 points, but they're great value for 0 points.
Moar horrors! Diminishing returns, since you're likely spending 6-7 WC to get 1 next turn, but they do get a new spell and can capture an objective while going to ground better than most other choices.
Flamers to give light/medium infantry a bad day, especially ones who think they're safe because they're in a building or cover, and can attack when they come down.
Daemonettes, because lots of rending attacks on reasonably fast units is good, especially when they're free!
Moar Screamers! Nice if you need to bail on your original screamers or if you have a pressing need to split your star towards the end of the game or to go for objectives since they can turbo boost (and get slashing attacks) when they arrive.
Lords of change are good, since they're actually fairly killy and bring more WC and more spells, but don't summon one 1st turn, or you'll give up first blood!
Keeper can be surprisingly good, since s/he's fast, killy and can assault the turn after s/he comes in rather than wasting a turn like the bloodthirster, though old mate bloody can go smash something on the other side of the board easier.
Any of the heralds can be good as long as they've got a unit to hide in nearby. You can take 30 points of toys on a herald as well, so you can grab a free portal glyph as well for MOAR troops! Herald of Tzeentch on disk is good to bulk out your star, HoT ML2 or Exalted locus in horror unit can be handy, HoK with 1x Lesser (axe) and 1x Greater when some crushers or dogs are already stuck in can make for a nasty surprise next turn, HoS with ML1 into some daemonettes for another roll on invis telepathy or take a steed and stack more attacks into your invisible slaneeshi star next turn. Hell, use your heralds to eat overwatch from a unit before charging in with something else if you want. Just be careful about joining up since you won't be able to assault if the herald has just "DS'ed" in, but if you've just summoned that unit, then join away.
In summary; Good units are still good, take those. Most good units are still good when summoned, summon those. Remember that you can all the upgrades listed for free, so there's no reason not to have an Icon, unit champ and instrument in each unit.
The reason for Fate Weaver is that you get to reroll 1 dice a turn, with a Portaglyph you're producing 1 additional Warp Charge a turn pretty much. That's a chance for the Horrors that are summoned to gain the Possession spell. The Odds are 1/6 each turn rerolled by Fateweaver. So basically you've turned you're Portaglyph into a Greater Daemon summoning portal.
People kind of forget that.
The reason for 12 Horrors is simply points efficiency and rolls on Malefic, you don't want 2 Big units of 16 you want 3 units of 12 because that's 3 Additional Rolls on the Malefic chart.
Statistically with 4 Heralds and 4 Squads you should get at least one Possession.
It's a mathematical reason. You want more rolls on Malefic to get possession. You want more rolls on Portaglyph to get possession.
You want Possession.
You usually with you're Daemon Princes want to go with 1 choice on the Telepathy Table because it's kind of a broken table because of Psychic Shriek which is a good way to thin the herd.
If I were doing it with a Chaos Daemon / Allied Chaos Space Marine, I'd Definitely go with that as you can then purchase the 15 point relic thingie that gives you the reroll.
The 3 Greater Daemons you want are Great Unclean One, Keeper for CC goodness. Do not Summon a Blood Thirster under any circumstance because they appear swooping which means he has to land, then wait a turn, then charge.
Keeper Of Secrets can show up blast off a Psychic Shriek or get invisibility then charge the following turn, Great Unclean one is the same.
The guide I posted is pretty in depth I think on stuff.
I always wonder why people doing a demon factory don't include a Farseer w/mantle and stone of anath. For ~230 points you get a WC 3 psycher who can cast every single summoning spell as WC 1 and is jinking for 2+ rerollable, and an OS jetbike unit. It's slightly ironic that Farseers are the bar-none best summoning units in the game, but it is what it is. Abuse it.
Dash2021 wrote: I always wonder why people doing a demon factory don't include a Farseer w/mantle and stone of anath. For ~230 points you get a WC 3 psycher who can cast every single summoning spell as WC 1 and is jinking for 2+ rerollable, and an OS jetbike unit. It's slightly ironic that Farseers are the bar-none best summoning units in the game, but it is what it is. Abuse it.
Hollismason wrote: The reason for Fate Weaver is that you get to reroll 1 dice a turn, with a Portaglyph you're producing 1 additional Warp Charge a turn pretty much. That's a chance for the Horrors that are summoned to gain the Possession spell. The Odds are 1/6 each turn rerolled by Fateweaver. So basically you've turned you're Portaglyph into a Greater Daemon summoning portal.
People kind of forget that.
The reason for 12 Horrors is simply points efficiency and rolls on Malefic, you don't want 2 Big units of 16 you want 3 units of 12 because that's 3 Additional Rolls on the Malefic chart.
Statistically with 4 Heralds and 4 Squads you should get at least one Possession.
It's a mathematical reason. You want more rolls on Malefic to get possession. You want more rolls on Portaglyph to get possession.
You want Possession.
You usually with you're Daemon Princes want to go with 1 choice on the Telepathy Table because it's kind of a broken table because of Psychic Shriek which is a good way to thin the herd.
If I were doing it with a Chaos Daemon / Allied Chaos Space Marine, I'd Definitely go with that as you can then purchase the 15 point relic thingie that gives you the reroll.
The 3 Greater Daemons you want are Great Unclean One, Keeper for CC goodness. Do not Summon a Blood Thirster under any circumstance because they appear swooping which means he has to land, then wait a turn, then charge.
Keeper Of Secrets can show up blast off a Psychic Shriek or get invisibility then charge the following turn, Great Unclean one is the same.
The guide I posted is pretty in depth I think on stuff.
Fateweaver is also highly valued due to his warlord trait letting you not screw over your entire army as well He's insurance against bad rolls in an army largely at the whim of random charts and tables. Using fateweavers re-roll on generated powers isn't something to recommend IMHO, he's got much better things to be doing.
12 horrors is inefficient, as you get the extra bonus dice at 11 and again at 16. Don't forget that Horrors are always ML1, so only ever get 1 roll, and can only ever cast a single power per turn, regardless of number. 2 units of 16 gets you the same warp charge as 3 units of 11, but does is ever so slightly cheaper (9 points, or 1 horror), but you get 1 less roll. You also lose 2 WC from a unit of 16 when you take 6 casualties, wheras you have to take 11 to lose 2 charges on a unit of 11.
The 15 point "thingy" isn't a relic, it's special issue wargear called a spell familiar.
The reason for 12 is that if you get Sacrifice you're not immediately losing a Warp Charge and if you suffer a Perils you don't immediately lose a Warp Charge as well.
16 Man and larger units are inefficient because you are casting less spells and you've focused you're Warp Charge into 2 units basically.
It's purpose is also through MSU and remember those units are Objective Secured and can in fact deep strike.
The Other reason is that it's not a gain on Warp Charge if you use Possession plus you lose less points when they do get possessed.
So to reiterate
1. 12 Models in squad allow you to suffer a perils test and not also lose a Warp Charge
2. 12 Models in the Squad Allow you to Cast Sacrifice without losing a Warp Charge.
3. You've not put all your eggs in "one basket" MSU is more efficient because you have multiple targets, 1 unit get's wiped out you lose 3 Warp Charge. 2 Units of 16 lose 6 members each you go down from 6 Warp Charge to 2 for a loss of 4 Warp Charge. 2 Units of 12 go down to 6 models, you lose 2 Warp Charge for a net loss of 2. It's about preserving you're warp charge.
4. You don't have a net gain of Warp Charge when you cast Possession with 16 models or more you actually lose 1 Warp Charge for Summoning the Greater Daemon (Max level is 2).
5. It's less of a gain of points as well. If you got a 16 or more man unit and you cast Possession you're net gain of points summoned isn't as great.
Basically every turn with summoning you want to get more warp charge, more units. The games pretty much over at 6 to 8 Lord of Changes flying around the board. It's just way above and beyond the ability of most armies to deal with that.
I would go 2 Daemon Princes buffed and Void Shield Generator, which I think can be added to a Aegis or bunker I'd have to look at my books.Oh I forgot to add, take Musicians with the Pink Horrors, it helps when you like absolutely have to Null deply for whatever reason. Just gives you tactical flexibility.
Oh and for the Daemon Princes, definitely give them gifts. I usually go two Greater each.
You can actually for 40 points I believe give them Flyer Ace from the Shield of Baal book, although I forget what it does?
Void shields tend not to be worth it if you are not running soul grinders.
Without grinders on the field you will have no AV units except the shield. So expect it to be hit and destroyed by every anti tank weapon the opponent has in the first turn.
The bastion is a good choice for summoners. It gives a place for a unit to hide (especially if you put a unit with a banner inside it, granting a larger deepstrike bubble around it to summon in (of course the unit itself cannot summon)). It also allows you to hide your vulnerable DPs before they get airbourne/ ironarm up. Putting an escape hatch on it would allow units to be summoned backfield, and then fired up midfield with alarming speed.
If you are looking for cheap survivability, then a basic aegis (forget the guns), does wonders for pink horrors. Gtg + an aegis gives your horrors the fabled 2++ re-rollable save.
It depends, Void Shields also protect the Summoned Units as well so that offers some protection beyond the Aegis Defense line, which is good as only one model has to be within the Void Shield to get it's benefit.. Yes they can be shot at everything else can as well that's the game you play but they offer a good defense against getting hammered like cat gak when someone takes multiple barrage weapons or a Thunderfire you have to regen them but they can be added to defenses. Them being able to extend beyond you're deployment zone helps when you summon units as they'll get some modicum of protection if they don't have cover.
There's a reason most FMC lists like Tyranids have Void Shields in addition to other defenses. So you don't get you're gak killed the very first turn.
You miss the point. The shield will be taken down first by heavy weapons, which have nothing better to shoot at, and then the barrage and anti infantry weapons will come in after.
You don't need to destroy the generator to do this, only strip the shields before firing the other weapons.
If you have grinders or other AV units on the field, then the opponent will be forced to choose how to divide his shots.
It works better with nids, because small arms fire is ineffective against flyrants, so the void shield is taking the shots that pose the most danger for them.
which is good as only one model has to be within the Void Shield to get it's benefit..
This is debatable. I can't speak for others, but my group wouldn't play it this way. If a squad was half-in and half-out we would allocate wounds to the closest model, if they are in the zone then the shield effect comes into play, if they are not, then they take the hit as usual.
Its the same principle you want to protect your Daemon Princes and Fateweaver from the weapons that will kill them, if they have that. It's a extra layer of protection.
Like we can go over and over about it, it works it's a good tactic and it protects your troops.
Hollismason wrote: Its the same principle you want to protect your Daemon Princes and Fateweaver from the weapons that will kill them, if they have that. It's a extra layer of protection.
Like we can go over and over about it, it works it's a good tactic and it protects your troops.
Except fateweaver and DP's are T5, and so are more vulnerable to anti infantry fire, and it doesn't protect your troops if it is stripped first.
If you had grinders or other things on the field that needed heavy weapons to take out then I could see it. Personally I would go with a bastion instead, as you can simply keep the DPs out of LoS.
Not really, the wording in the book is quite clear - Unit, not model. It's stupid, but clear.
It says target, actually. "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield"
I won't argue, as I know we would play it logically, but I wouldn't recommend it to others as it seems a good way to get into arguments and lose friends.
Fateweaver and Daemon Princes, will die absolutely 100% to Dakka Flyrants straight up which is why you take the void shields. I mean you can go back and forth with could of would of and what ifs but Void Shields protect you from having that happen to you. They also protect from Thunderfires and other artillery. You can also take them with certain fortifications.
Hollismason wrote: Fateweaver and Daemon Princes, will die absolutely 100% to Dakka Flyrants straight up which is why you take the void shields. I mean you can go back and forth with could of would of and what ifs but Void Shields protect you from having that happen to you. They also protect from Thunderfires and other artillery. You can also take them with certain fortifications.
Please. It won't protect from artillery if it is destroyed first. If you only have 1 target that needs heavy weapons to be destroyed, then they simply will not survive.
Also, the void shields on a building are different to those that you purchase as a fortification. Check it out.
It depends really, while you do have to push through those Level 3 with 5 or more dice expect it to do worse or better than that. I've played straight CD and a mix of CD and CSM for the Daemon Prince from their. I've yet to make CSM w/ the Legacy though.
Expect to summon around 60 to 100 models. The problem with Summoning is that while most people just say " I'm only summoning these dudes" it's actually less efficient to use because you should have some other options in you're pocket.
Personally my favourite thing to summon isn't actually Troops it's spamming the crap out of Slaanesh Heralds Psychic Shriek and Tzeentch gun boats.
adamsouza wrote: The VSG makes them waste heavy weapon fire on it, before shooting the rest of your army.
The Bunker only protects what's in, or behind, it.
The portaglyph alone should bring in something like 5d6 daemon in an average game.
If Possension lets me bring in Greater Daemons, should the magic number be as many as I can afford, and or convert ?
Portal glyph is a 50% chance to spawn D6 daemons. So you will get 3D6 if you are lucky, 5-7D6 if you are really lucky. So right there you need at least an additional 35 pink horrors and daemonettes. Nettes if enemies are nearby, as you can assault out of the portal (open topped vehicle!) pinkies for warp charges.
You will need 2-3 min sized units of EVERYTHING you might summon. If you really want your factory to work, that means being able to summon ALL gods, not just ones you like. I don't care much for khorne, but summoning bloodcrushers is an amazing way to freak out those marines that just deep struck behind you. Plague drones are arguably the best summon for getting that distant objective, PBs for that close objective, Nettes for general murder, and pinkies for more warp charges and back field objectives.
You will want fateweaver as 1 HQ, he is the bomb and will provide insane utility to your army. Check the FAQ, he can roll on malefic for each head. If you don't want to fill points with DPs, go double force org for double heralds for more chances at more greater daemons and other daemons.
Personally, if you really want to get a good idea of how many daemons you need, play a game by yourself on paper. practice as if your entire army took no damage, roll up powers, warp storm (because it summons too) and portal glyph every turn. Mark how many of what daemon you make. Do this 4-5 times and you should have a good average. Some games you will not get anything but the primaris, other games everyone will have sacrifice.
I have played daemons since 5th, daemon factory has been the hardest and longest game I have ever played. Not that it was hard to win with, it was a fun win, just that it was the hardest to keep track of what units had what powers, where to summon who and what and when. It sounds easy, but when you have 35 dice in your hand and its the psychic phase, it gets difficult.
I would suggest learning daemons before trying a factory list.
Oh yeah, don't forget about transporting 3k worth of daemons for every 1500pt game.
To be honest, the added complexity of the Daemon Factory is part of what draws me to it. Having to command an army that is always in flux seems challenging, in a good way.
Worst case scenario, I learn from my mistakes while playing and lose a few battles.
My gaming group is getting a little annoyed battling my undefeated scarab farm, so I don't mind them using my Daemons as target practice until I master the chaos.
Truth be told, even though I've had this on my to do list since reading the orginal 99 problems thread, part of me is doing this now because I'm tired of hearing whining of a few players about my Scarab Farms. Another part is I'm really looking forward to conversion work this will entail.
Mastering Daemons (I haven't actually mastered them, but I'm getting bettah ) has been a very satisfying 40k endeavor me, and if you want a challenge, I'm sure you will enjoy it too.
I've been playing Daemons for a while now, but have never tried out running a Factory. Most of my lists are somewhat of a hybrid between having metric pooptons of warp charges and spending points on heavy hitters as well. I regularly dedicate warp charges to summoning, usually 2 summonings attempted with 6 dice each turn, and I feel like I've got a decent handle on what to summon when and where and how to use summoned units. I tend to stray away from possession though. I'm not even sure why. I've got a 1500 pt tourney coming at the end of this month and this thread is reeeaally making want to try out being a Factory manager!
Does this look decent/need changes for a 1500 take on the Factory? I fit the LoC in there by using self ally which will be allowed.
Fateweaver Lord of Change: ML3, 2x Greater, Lesser Tz'erald: ML3, Exalted Tz'erald: ML3 Tz'erald: ML3
12x Horrors 12x Horrors 12x Horrors
12x Hounds
so 22 Warp charges, all told. Should be enough for 3 summons a turn plus a modicum for buffing units. Speaking of, do you guys even bother with casting blessings or just throw every last dice at summons? I feel like at least cursed earth would be too good to pass up. Hounds are there to do what hounds do and take a little fire off of my squishy pink horror blobs while I get the summoning ball rolling. Went for LoC because he's a little bit cheaper, but would it be better to go for a Tzeentch Prince? I figure either way I'll go for Telepathy or Biomancy depending on the matchup (no or little ignores cover and it'll be telepathy all day) since I should have plenty of summoning utility from the rest of the list. Any thoughts or do I have my bases covered?
EDIT: Derp forgot LoC doesn't have access to telepathy or biomancy so I'll probably skim off some hounds to make up the points for changing him to a DPoT.
DOUBLE DERP: I just realized Sacrifice is a WARP CHARGE 1 POWER. THIS. CHANGES. EVERYTHING. I thought it was 3 lol. Oh man this is ALMOST as bad as when about a month ago I realized that the Grimoire has a 24" range and not a 12" range (I've played daemons for almost 2 years) . Oh well, guess it wasn't too bad that I've been handicapping myself as it makes life a lot easier now.
I'm tempted to try out a mixed Chaos Daemon / CSM w/ a Plaguehulk or whatever with the relic on it. It's got such a huge base that the extensions pretty large. Plus the CSM Daemon Princes are great at summoning.
Oh something I feel is also worth noting for Daemon Facrtory tactics: When generating psychic powers, roll all of your Pink Horrors' powers first. All they get is the one roll on Malefic no matter what, so go ahead and start fishing for Cursed Earth, Possession, and Sacrifice with them that way you can choose whether or not you want to start farming Divination for some of its goodies with your Tz'eralds.
astro_nomicon wrote: Oh something I feel is also worth noting for Daemon Facrtory tactics: When generating psychic powers, roll all of your Pink Horrors' powers first. All they get is the one roll on Malefic no matter what, so go ahead and start fishing for Cursed Earth, Possession, and Sacrifice with them that way you can choose whether or not you want to start farming Divination for some of its goodies with your Tz'eralds.
Good idea, I'll have to remember to do that.
4 powers for horrors + 12 powers for the heralds
1 in 6 odds of getting possesion with 16 attempts to do it, should net 2 on average.
Every time Portaglyph pops and you choose Pink Horrors, another power added to the mix
Any time you summon more Pink Horrors, another power added to the mix.
Any time you sacrifice and get another Tzeench Herald, more powers in the mix.
I can see how this escalates quickly. An opponent who sits in his deployment zoen and doesn't try to wipe you out quickly is in for a world of dissapointment.
I'm curious if any of you feel like there's a lower limit of Warp Charges that under which running a Daemon Factory is a futile endeavor.
Also, it seems to me that the Factory is almost better in slightly smaller games, where the points you are summoning to the board are a greater percentage of your opponents army. For instance if you summon 800 points of Daemons in an 1850 game, you summoned 43% more points to the board. If you summoned the same in a 1500 point game you summoned 53% more points to the board. Do you think that has an impact on the army's success rate or is not a very useful metric?
Your summoning engine and direct offense are mostly seperate, so I imagine there is a point where you can't have enough of both on the board at the same time. Also, your ability to snag the right spells is contigent on you making lots of attempts at drawing them. You are trying to mitigate the randomness by having soo many attempts that you'll eventually succeed.
But I guess you can make lemonade out of lemons at any points level
4 Lvl 2 Heralds of Tzeench + 2 Units of 12 Pink Horrors clocks in at under 500 points, and should manage at worst to put another 90 point unit of Demontic Troops on the board each turn.
Whipped these up these counters to help keep track who has what spell.
I'm going to print them up at the local 1 Hour Photo
Thanks. I had originally made a black and white sheet with 70 tokens, but it just looked bland and white markers are a distraction on the battlefield. The color ones look cooler, and I've used photos for tokens before. Glue them to foam core and cut them out, and you have some pretty durable tokens., that stack.
I'm running a Tz/Nur summoning list in a tourney Saturday. I'll report back.
Defintely interested in hearing about the expereince. Looking forward to your update.
----------------------------
Do you guys just use the small blast marker as a Portaglyph, or do you use something more interesting ?
Thanks. I had originally made a black and white sheet with 70 tokens, but it just looked bland and white markers are a distraction on the battlefield. The color ones look cooler, and I've used photos for tokens before. Glue them to foam core and cut them out, and you have some pretty durable tokens., that stack.
I'm running a Tz/Nur summoning list in a tourney Saturday. I'll report back.
Defintely interested in hearing about the expereince. Looking forward to your update.
----------------------------
Do you guys just use the small blast marker as a Portaglyph, or do you use something more interesting ?
I use a pile of dead tac marines glued to a 60mm base that inherited when i bought a guys daemons off him wholesale lol. In a competitive environ though i'd prefer something dimensionless (in height anyway) but preferrably cool looking
I use a pile of dead tac marines glued to a 60mm base that inherited when i bought a guys daemons off him wholesale lol. In a competitive environ though i'd prefer something dimensionless (in height anyway) but preferrably cool looking
That sounds amusing.
This is probably more in line with the flatness you were looking for
Spoiler:
Also found a thread here on Dakka about Portaglyphs
I just cut a small blast marker sized circle out of black foam core for a quick portal. Flatter is easier to hide.
I'm trying Fate, GUO, TzPrince, NurPrince, 2x10 Horrors, 2x10 Plaguebearers, 4 Flamers. I wanted some bodies on the board for bubble wrap on my big guys and I love Flamers as a cheap utility unit. I can summon 20 Nettes, 20 Letters, Tons of Nurglings, 6 Crushers, and a Thirster. It's not fully optimized but it's fully painted and fun as hell. GUO carries the Grimoire, NurPrince throws the Portal... having Nurgle in the list gives it more resilience and hitting power (Balesword!). I'll let you know how it goes!
Yeah i hear you on the bubble wrap. Thats why i have a really hard time not putting hounds in the list. Ofc i could summon them but i really like having them on the board With their base sizes they make an excellent screen/bubblewrap and with scout they can force armies that wanna sit back and shoot to target them while i get my summoning rolling. Also took a nurgle prince in my list for a hard hitter and im considering swapping fatey for a LoC for the same reason
Fateweaver is good, but I've done better with a great unclean one. It opens up heavy support for flying daemon princes of nurgle, and you've still got room for heralds and horrors.
At 1850, I'm running 26 warp charges. The list is totally dependent on the princes doing the bulk of the work, but at close to half the points, you kind of expect them to.
Probably won't run the inquisitor except at an event (or against my friend's white scars )
I've got a decent amount of units to summon (read: units to paint) but I'm actually really looking forward to it because I found some sweet color-shifting paint. Any recommendations for Fatey's wings? Probably going to do his clothes an off white
They're pretty survivable summoners, out of all of them they're the most survivable , give them 2 levels and a Palaquin their not going any where any time soon.
Cheap warp charge, more chances as cursed earth/possession. Summoning platforms are never a bad thing, especially when they have more than one purpose. Can also be a source of AP 2 for the dronestar if you need it. Most importantly, gives the unit FNP with the locus of fecundity
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also name me any other book that can cram 14 warp charge into their HQ section in only 2 selections. Ironically daemons could do 24 if they really wanted to max it out but Fatey is DEFINITELY worth the 10 pt drop, especially since he's shaper than 4 heralds. Heck he's cheaper than just 3 on discs
luke1705 wrote: Cheap warp charge, more chances as cursed earth/possession. Summoning platforms are never a bad thing, especially when they have more than one purpose. Can also be a source of AP 2 for the dronestar if you need it. Most importantly, gives the unit FNP with the locus of fecundity
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also name me any other book that can cram 14 warp charge into their HQ section in only 2 selections. Ironically daemons could do 24 if they really wanted to max it out but Fatey is DEFINITELY worth the 10 pt drop, especially since he's shaper than 4 heralds. Heck he's cheaper than just 3 on discs
You can't have more then 4 heralds in a single detachment
luke1705 wrote: Cheap warp charge, more chances as cursed earth/possession. Summoning platforms are never a bad thing, especially when they have more than one purpose. Can also be a source of AP 2 for the dronestar if you need it. Most importantly, gives the unit FNP with the locus of fecundity
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also name me any other book that can cram 14 warp charge into their HQ section in only 2 selections. Ironically daemons could do 24 if they really wanted to max it out but Fatey is DEFINITELY worth the 10 pt drop, especially since he's shaper than 4 heralds. Heck he's cheaper than just 3 on discs
I feel like the Nurgle Heralds would be fishing for Endurance in this list and almost always taking a Greater Aetherblade for AP2.
If you take sum form of Tzeentch heralds on jetbikes + screamers, why would'nt you ALWAYS take the blue scribes?
You cant go wrong with free 'Malific' powers!
shogun wrote: If you take sum form of Tzeentch heralds on jetbikes + screamers, why would'nt you ALWAYS take the blue scribes?
You cant go wrong with free 'Malific' powers!
Because you only have 2 HQ choices
I think eventually I'm going to have to run a dual CAD so I can field Fateweaver, Blue Scribes, and 8 Heralds.
Let the Blue Scribes go first and cast something from Maelific, and see if they burn any deny tthe witch. Even if they manage to deny the Blue Scribes, it didn't cost you any warp charges.
Try to hide it somewhere turn 1. Use it to summon pink horrors, for the extra Warp Charges and Maelific attempts at rolling possesion.
Any other tips or tricks for Portalglyphs other than that ?
Hmm I thought I read somewhere that a unit arriving from the portalglyph could assault the turn it arrived because "a new unit. . . of D6 Daemons . . . enters play from the Portalglyph, exactly as if it were a unit disembarking from a transport."
That would require the Portalglyph to be treated as an open topped vehicle, however, and I can't find anything that says it is. It's entry denotes it as an immobilized vehicle.
But other than that, yeah that seems to be the best way to use the portalglyph now.
Zagman wrote: Daemon Factory definitely is something to be concerned about, but before we have too much fear lets make sure we are getting their limitations down and don't let the Daemons player unknowing gain any extra advantage. I've seen quite a bit of talk and misinformation regarding some of these points. Lets get it right so we can accurately address the threat that Daemon Factory represents.
Perils: Make sure that if they are a non Daemon that they Perils on any double, not just 6's and not just on successful castings.
One Power Attempt Per Unit: Only one attempt at any one specific power per unit per turn. No double attempts at the same power from any unit without a special rule allowing it.
Warp Charges: Make sure the player is not adding any Warp Charges to their pool from the Summoned Daemons. Yes, they generate their powers the turn they arrive and are able to manifest any non Conjuration power the turn they arrive, but they arrive after Warp Charges are collected and do not contribute to this turns Warp Charge Pool. They contribute normally the turn after they are summoned.
Arrive Via Deepstrike: Summoned Daemons arrive via Deepstrike and must follow all relevant limitations. "is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes." They effectively have arrived from Reserves via Deep Strike and cannot Move in the Movement phase, and cannot charge in the Assault phase. They may run or shoot. This is very relevant for Summoned Flying Monstrous Creatures.
Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction.
Range of Summoning: Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range, measured from the Psycher. First model must be placed wholly within 12" and then scattered as normal. The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6". Note: If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives from Reserves in the following turns.
Cursed Earth only requires the first model be placed within 12" for No Scatter DS.
Solo Heralds: Heralds are summoned within 6". They cannot move and cannot join another unit the turn they arrive. They also cannot contribute to the Warp Charge pool the turn they arrive.
Summoned Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change: Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change are Flying Monsterous Creatures who have arrived from reserve via Deep Strike. FMCs who have arrived via Deepstrike are forced to be in Swooping mode and cannot change flight modes until the following turn as changing flight modes is performed at the start of its move, which it does not have. It has been forced to be declared as Swooping the turn it arrives. Therefore they cannot charge until two turns after they are summoned.
For example, a Bloodthirster is summoned Turn 2. It arrives in Swooping mode, cannot move or change Flight Modes turn 2. It can only run or shoot Turn 2. Turn 3 the Bloodthirster can change movement modes and begin Gliding. It can shoot or Run as normal. Turn 4 the Blood Thirster can Glide and charge.
One Eye Open Daemons still belond to the Codex Daemons Faction and if summoned by a Faction that is Comes the Apocalypse or Desperate Allies they are still subject to the One Eye Open rules laid out in Allies. Summoning and scatter may force this check at the beginning of the following turn.
Transports and Vehicles: Summoning from inside of a Transport or a Building is prohibited.
Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."
astro_nomicon wrote: Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?
I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).
astro_nomicon wrote: Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?
It looks like you are going to depend on the Nurgle Prince and Hounds to do the heavy lifting, and have the Heralds and Horrors for a summoning engine ?
If so, the irridescents aren't going to do much, and you could replace them with standards, to keep your summons from wildly scattering.
astro_nomicon wrote: Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?
I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).
No double CAD allowed at this event, otherwise I would consider it.
adamsouza wrote:
It looks like you are going to depend on the Nurgle Prince and Hounds to do the heavy lifting, and have the Heralds and Horrors for a summoning engine ?
If so, the irridescents aren't going to do much, and you could replace them with standards, to keep your summons from wildly scattering.
Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.
I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.
I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.
astro_nomicon wrote: Alright so I really wanna do a summon-centric Daemons list at a local 1500 pt tourney next weekend. Any thoughts before I fully commit?
I would drop 1x Tz'erald, reduce all horrors to 11, and drop a few dogs to get the blue scribes and another unit of horrors (CAD instead of Allies so 2x troops).
No double CAD allowed at this event, otherwise I would consider it.
Then I think you should drop one Tz-herald and drop all horrors to 11, and get a khorne herald on a bloodcrusher with instant kill axe and icon (hatred). Maybe you should also switch that LOC for B'lakor. I think that LOC could get killed to easily if the grimoire fails. With B'lakor you always get that 2+ coversave just like the Nurgle Daemon Prince and always got the possibility to cast invisibility on the hounds. Thats really important when facing Necron Wraiths. B'lakor also does a better job at killing Imperial knights (S7 armourbane versus S8 staff of change).
At 1500 points I would also consider switching to a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (heavy support) because then you free up a HQ-slot to get the blue scribes (drop a Tz'erald).
I have enough Pink Horrors, Heralds on foot, and Greater Daemons to get by for now, and I'm looking to what I should buy next. Trying to keep to purchases of $100 or less at a time to keep my wife from murdering me in my sleep.
What gives the most bang for your buck with Summoning/Incusion ?
I know Nurgle Plague Drones are popular, and I need models for Incusion, but $60 per casting of Incusion, that's a really expensive option.
Screamers cost half as much, are stupidly fast, and get a d3 attacks per model on a unit they turbo boost over.
I can't see the appeal of Fiends of Slaanesh. Is there something I'm missing to justify the $75 a pop price tag ?
Bloodcrushers of Khorne appear to be the Marine Killer Choice, but if I'm going to sepnd $55 I might as well spend $60 and get the Plague Drones. Also, I just don't care for Khorne units in general.
Flamers are cheapest option, at only $20 a summons, with 3 AP4 Template attacks, they'd probably be great against, Orks, Tau, and Nids. I'll definitely pick some up, even though I'm most likely going to face Marines and Necrons.
Daemonettes have always been on my to do list. $29 per summons, rending and +3 on the run
Seekers are also spectacular with a ton of rending attacks and the ability to run pretty far (I mean, not screamer far but you do get more wounds per summon, and they get +6" to their run)
Plague drones are good but work best supported IMO. As in, I'd prefer to start them in my army vs summoning them. They are still good with touch of rust and the cavalry unit type, plus their jet pack assault move.
Can't go wrong with screamers. AP 2 armorbane OP.
Those are definitely the top three, but flesh hounds aren't bad (the most wounds) and bloodcrushers have some good points (wounds), but both of those units need support more than plague drones because they tend to want to try and win combat, which can be tough for them in low numbers like summoning tends to give. The other units are all about just scooting over the board, with specific uses for each that can be effectively accomplished even in small numbers
luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...
I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.
Plague Drones are probably getting pushed to back of the list. They're expensive, Nurgle, and I don't want to rework the rest of my list to support them.
Screamers look like they are at the top of my shopping list. They seem the most cost effective.
Hollismason wrote:Yeah Heralds of Slaanesh aslo make great reserve summoners as thy can outflank come on board and summon.
OoOoh, I may have to swap one of my heralds of Tzeentch for a Herald of Slaanesh and give that a try. At $22.50 a pop, I might just buy a box of Daemonettes and convert one
luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...
I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.
Plague Drones are probably getting pushed to back of the list. They're expensive, Nurgle, and I don't want to rework the rest of my list to support them.
Screamers look like they are at the top of my shopping list. They seem the most cost effective.
Hollismason wrote:Yeah Heralds of Slaanesh aslo make great reserve summoners as thy can outflank come on board and summon.
OoOoh, I may have to swap one of my heralds of Tzeentch for a Herald of Slaanesh and give that a try. At $22.50 a pop, I might just buy a box of Daemonettes and convert one
I know a lot of people like their seekers (I've never actually used them as I don't own any either, so take this with a grain of salt), but after many glances, they still haven't really done anything for me. They're fast, they're killy, but at T3 and 1W it just seems like they will die to the first thing that glances at them. Couple this with the fact that when Summoning, the vast majority of the time I'm just looking to tarpit something until my big hitters can get around to it, they're just not that attractive of an option. To accomplish that, I'll take Plague Drones, Hounds, or plain old Daemonettes any day. Fiends fulfill basically the same role as summoned seekers, but are T4 and have almost twice as many wounds, albeit at the price of less attacks and WS4 compared to WS5. Granted, if you are going for cost efficiency in terms of $$$ then hellll no I had no idea Fiends cost that much. I have 5 from when I bought my Daemons wholesale from a guy. Maybe that's why we haven't seen too many Fiendstars.
The ability to summon most of the unit choices available in the codex gives the Chaos Daemons general the ability to summon the right unit for the job, but encourages a ludicrously large collection of models to able to do so. Eventually, I'll most likely get a few units of basically everything, some little part of my brain treats 40K models like Pokemon and I gotta chach'em all, but for right now price per unit matters.
2 units of Plague Drones are pretty solid tarpit, but if that's all I have in my collection to summon, then I could probably get more mileage out of Battleforce (10 Plaguebearers, 3 Nurglings, 10 Bloodletters, 5 Seekers and 3 Screamers).
Right now I'm relying on summoning pink horrors in the way as speed bumps, while I summon more heralds, to hopefully sacrifice for more Greater Daemons.
Random Thought, and I don't have the books with me at the moment,
When the Portalglyph summons/brings forth 1d6 Daemons, do they get the free Champion, Musician, and Icon Bearer upgrades like a regular summoned unit does ?
Where are you seeing the free unit upgrades for summoning? I meant sacrifice gives you 30 pts of upgrades but the portapglyph explicitly disallows any upgrades.
It is in the section of the BRB for Conjurations, not in the power itself. Any spell that summons Daemons that can upgrade for a character, icon or musician may do so for free.
The Portalglyph does not have this wording, so you do not get those free upgrades
Galef wrote: It is in the section of the BRB for Conjurations, not in the power itself. Any spell that summons Daemons that can upgrade for a character, icon or musician may do so for free.
BRBpg 27 "If a conjuration power creates a unit from codex: Chaos Daemons and that unit's army list entry includes an option to take an Icon of Chaos, an Instrument of Chaos, and/or the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free provided you have the appropirate model available. Unless stated otherwise, the unit can not take any further upgrades or options."
The Portalglyph does not have this wording, so you do not get those free upgrades
Thanks, I didn't have the codex with me. Yeah, it specifically says they have no upgrades.
luke1705 wrote:Seekers ...Plague drones...Can't go wrong with screamers....Those are definitely the top three...
I'll have to read into Seekers a bit more, at first glance they didn't do anything for me.
Seekers are Demonettes that move 12", can Outflank and have an extra attack plus Hammer of Wrath, for 3pts more. They're very well costed, so much so that you're probably better off buying them as Fast Attack rather than Summoning - especially since you only summon units of 5 Seekers, whereas you get 10 Demonettes per summon.
I think it's the fact that they remind me of Sea Horses with legs that has always prejudiced me againt them. Looking at the what they can do makes them a bit more appealing.
Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.
I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.
I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.
Be'lakor is good, but he can't summon. You also don't have any particularly amazing targets for Invisibility, especially considering you want to throw 6-8 dice at it (ie, 1 summons worth of dice) to ensure it is successful. His other great spell is shrouding when combined with Screamers, but you don't have those either. With the list you have, I probably wouldn't take him, unless you use him in a melee role.
I'd definitely take an icon or two if you can. Every dice you waste casting cursed earth is one less dice to summon with. Even just to get the ball rolling with your first summoning, then you start bringing in icons anyway.
Have you considered using a CSM Nurgle Daemon Prince + Cultists instead for your allies? With a spell familiar, they summon as reliably on 5 dice as your other caster do on 7 - this is equivalent to another 100pts worth of horrors right there.
Remember that when you're summoning, it takes 300pts worth of Horrors to summon on 100pts worth of Daemons (if you're lucky). You do get the element of surprise and flexibility to tailor your army mid game, but just remember that tradeoff that you're making there - is it better to simply take a 20-strong squad of Flesh Hounds instead of more horrors?
Personally I've found that trying for 1 sacrifice and 2 summons per turn is about the maximum you can pull off while still maintaining credible threats. Thats around 15 dice, base, plus whatever you get from warpstorm.
If you want to go real heavy summoning, I've found the Nurgle Circus the best (GUO, 2xTzerald, 2xHorrors, 3x Nurgle DP). You get 22 dice base while having 3 relatively durable combat monsters if you need them - enough for 3 summons + a sacrifice. Trying to do the same with Tzeetch seems to leave me with roughly the same number of dice but less durable combat potential.
adamsouza wrote: I think it's the fact that they remind me of Sea Horses with legs that has always prejudiced me againt them. Looking at the what they can do makes them a bit more appealing.
Hippocampus Erectus? Come on, it sounds so slaanesh.
Definitely need the Prince to do some heavy lifting, as well as the LoC. Hounds are more for forcing my opponent to shoot at them early on or risk their shooty stuff being tied up in combat for multiple rounds while I get the summoning ball rolling.
I slapped on some irridescents because I had 10 points left and I figured that they would provide a modicum of insurance against a result of 3 on the Warpstorm table. I'm not terribly worried about scatter because with 12 rolls minimum on Malefic, I should have at least one Cursed Earth, hopefully more.
I put the LoC in there instead of fatey because I felt like I really needed another beatstick. Without another (possible) close combat monster in the list, I'd be leaning really hard on the Nurgle Prince. Do you think it would be wise to skim some points from the Hounds to get Be'Lakor in there? Knowing all of telepathy is always nice.
Be'lakor is good, but he can't summon. You also don't have any particularly amazing targets for Invisibility, especially considering you want to throw 6-8 dice at it (ie, 1 summons worth of dice) to ensure it is successful. His other great spell is shrouding when combined with Screamers, but you don't have those either. With the list you have, I probably wouldn't take him, unless you use him in a melee role.
I'd definitely take an icon or two if you can. Every dice you waste casting cursed earth is one less dice to summon with. Even just to get the ball rolling with your first summoning, then you start bringing in icons anyway.
Have you considered using a CSM Nurgle Daemon Prince + Cultists instead for your allies? With a spell familiar, they summon as reliably on 5 dice as your other caster do on 7 - this is equivalent to another 100pts worth of horrors right there.
Remember that when you're summoning, it takes 300pts worth of Horrors to summon on 100pts worth of Daemons (if you're lucky). You do get the element of surprise and flexibility to tailor your army mid game, but just remember that tradeoff that you're making there - is it better to simply take a 20-strong squad of Flesh Hounds instead of more horrors?
Personally I've found that trying for 1 sacrifice and 2 summons per turn is about the maximum you can pull off while still maintaining credible threats. Thats around 15 dice, base, plus whatever you get from warpstorm.
If you want to go real heavy summoning, I've found the Nurgle Circus the best (GUO, 2xTzerald, 2xHorrors, 3x Nurgle DP). You get 22 dice base while having 3 relatively durable combat monsters if you need them - enough for 3 summons + a sacrifice. Trying to do the same with Tzeetch seems to leave me with roughly the same number of dice but less durable combat potential.
Hey thanks for the input.
I do have a couple of counter points though:
Why does Be'lakor need to summon? There's no way I'd ever have enough warp charges to throw at every summoning power available to my list so there's no real need to summon with him. I am using him in a combat role in the games I've played with this list, and I feel that either Be'lakor himself or the Nurgle Prince are perfectly valid beneficiaries of Invis. I think of it as Grimoire Insurance in the same way as Fateweaver is in most lists, except that I get a credible combat threat out of Be'lakor over Fateweaver.
I can't agree with your assessment that casting Cursed Earth is wasting dice. In a list like mine where I have sizable blobs of infantry in the back, buffing all those saves to a 4+ AND pinpointing deepstrikes is worth at least 4 dice.
I have toyed around with the idea of a CSM Prince since they can take a spell familiar, but I like the redundancy of the greater rewards table combined with rolling on Biomancy too much to have tried it yet. Maybe in the future.
I like the Nurgle Circus you suggested, but its around 1700 pts (assuming maxing out on rewards for GUO and Princes) and I'm making a list for a 1500 pt tourney. I've got 21 dice to that list's 22 so plenty of summoning for a 1500 pt game (I hope), and a little bubble wrap/pressure unit in the form of hounds.
Hansisaf wrote: Be'lakor slapping Shrouded on himself and a couple of Tzeentch Daemon Princes within 6"
Jink the Princes for a 2+ cover rerollable. Only works when your enemy doesn't have ignore cover weapons. But then again, so do Nurgle Daemon Princes.
And also remember that Tzeentch D-Prince still got that reroll-ones. Wave serpent shields and ignore cover tau missile's still gives them more resilience compared to a Nurgle-D-Prince.
luke1705 wrote: I do have trouble getting on the Nurgle DP train when Be'Lakor just does so much more (not to mention he might even be CHEAPER)
That's why you bring both Fully decked out Nurgle Prince is 5 pts less than Be'la (whoopee) and with even a decent combination of greater rewards and Biomancy powers can be quite the monster. Obviously Be'lakor has the set psychic powers, guaranteed EW, and his S7 fleshbane armorbane going for him, but the Balesword can be invaluable some games and the Prince stands a really good chance of being able to take on targets that would make even Be'lakor squeemish. I mean if I could take 3 Be'lakors then why not, but I can only have 1 and that's why comparing Be'lakor to a prince isn't all that great of an analogy.
The real debate would be Tzeentch vs Nurgle DP. I'm in the Nurgle camp as they are they best independent operators, but I'm sure Tzeentch can be quite good if played well. I'm just not a fan of having to group my MCs
I like to think of Tzeentch units being scalpels and Nurgle troops being Mallets. It's easy, and fun, to play whack a mole with Nurgle, but Tzeentch units need to be used with surgical precision. Blunt force or finesse, if you will.
I decided the next upgrades to my Daemon Hordes should be some screamers, herlads on discs, and maybe even some screamers pulling some heralds on discs
Isn't that basically what a Disc of Tzeentch is anyways ?
Fluffwise the Discs are Screamers that have been transformed by Tzeentch.
Modelwise, the Discs are more round than Ray shaped.
I figured I'd try both. May have to make a second model for the screamer as well, with the tail flopping the other direction. All of them with the tail going the same way would bug me.
Isn't that basically what a Disc of Tzeentch is anyways ?
Fluffwise the Discs are Screamers that have been transformed by Tzeentch.
Modelwise, the Discs are more round than Ray shaped.
I figured I'd try both. May have to make a second model for the screamer as well, with the tail flopping the other direction. All of them with the tail going the same way would bug me.
Yes, I just figure literal Manta Surfing is a cool variant on the disc concept.
changemod wrote: Yes, I just figure literal Manta Surfing is a cool variant on the disc concept.
Hey, just for, I'll make one herald surfing on the back of a screamer
ha two of my Disc Heralds are just that. I like them just fine. The other rides the center of what was a chariot of Tzeentch and the screamers that the other two Heralds are surfing are the ones meant to pull the Chariot. What can I say? I had a chariot in 6th when they were just "god no, never use it" and I needed three Heralds. . . voila.
Any who I'm going to a small 1500 point tourney tomorrow and I've decided on this:
On the docket to be summoned are: 6 Plague Drones, 10 Plaguebearers, 1 Nurgle Herald, Keeper of Secrets, 20 Daemonettes, Bloodthirster, 20 Bloodletters, 15 Hounds, Lord of Change, and 6 Screamers.
I can't believe I'm bringing this many models to a 1500 pt tourney Should be fun though!
Known oppostion includes: Tau/FE w/ MissleStar, 2 Skyrays, VT Bursttide, and MSU suits; Some sort of Decurion with wraiths; 2 IKs backed up by 3 Valks and a Vulture; Eldar w/ 4+ Serpents, and others I am not aware of at present. Wish me luck! Any last thoughts?
astro_nomicon wrote: Known oppostion includes: Tau/FE w/ MissleStar, 2 Skyrays, VT Bursttide, and MSU suits; Some sort of Decurion with wraiths; 2 IKs backed up by 3 Valks and a Vulture; Eldar w/ 4+ Serpents, and others I am not aware of at present. Wish me luck! Any last thoughts?
Tau: You could try 'Terrify' to scare that misslestar and/or bursttide of the table.
Necron: try to lock those wraiths with 1 unit horrors + grimoir+ cursed earth.
IK's + flyers: Try to position your FMC that you can 'vector strike' those flyers. Also use 'shrouded' to your advantage because theirs no/not a lot of anti-cover.
Eldar: Play the mission and use invisibility.
One of my friends suckered me into a "friendly" 2000 point game this weekend. I thought he was bringing Chaos Daemons as well, but then puts Grey Knights on the table and insists we play a Maelstom Mission.
Turn 5 he has Draigo with a unit of Paladins, 2 Dreadnaughts, and Techmarine all actively running away from my hordes of Daemons. If there were rounds 6 and 7 I would have tabled him.
He won 17 to 2. The Mission cards hated me, I literally could only achieve 1 during the game, because it happened to be to capture an objective I was already sitting on. By turn 2 he had something like 12 victory points, and I stopped even trying to accumulate them.
I lost 2 summoned Greater Daemons, Fateweaver, some Pink Horrors, and Daemonettes. FateWeaver was entirely my fault. I popped him out of cover to buff the Keeper of Secrets battling Draigo and the Paladins. Then proceed to fail to cast Iron Arm on himself, and Invisibility on the Keeper of secrets. The KOS rolls all 2's for his saves, dies, and frees up Draigo and the Paladins to charge Fateweaver.
If I had Screamers and Drone models to summon, I think I would have tabled him.
The highlight for me was his Dreadknight jumping 30" across the board and getting tarpitted by pnink horrors, only to be charged by 2 of my Daemon Princes and a Great Unclean One, who murdered him in a single assault phase.
You summon 6 Keeper of Secrets in a game, and your opponent starts finding all sorts of things to complain about...
They are not official models !! - No they are not, but since we are playing in my basement, I think it's okay with the owner
It's too confusing !! - The ones with 4 arms, crab claws, or breasts, and no wings are Keeper of Secrets. The ones with wings are Daemon Princes of Tzeentch.
They are unpainted !! - In the last month I put together 3000+ points of Chaos Daemons, scultping and casting some of them, painted 60+ models, and all the terrain on the table we are playing.
They are too small !! - What ? Those 4 guys standing around that Blood Thirster are "too small" to be greater Daemons ?
I'm finding Screamers of Tzeentch very useful summoned in squads of 3. Is it worth fielding them in larger numbers, as part of your starting force ?
adamsouza wrote: You summon 6 Keeper of Secrets in a game, and your opponent starts finding all sorts of things to complain about...
They are not official models !! - No they are not, but since we are playing in my basement, I think it's okay with the owner
It's too confusing !! - The ones with 4 arms, crab claws, or breasts, and no wings are Keeper of Secrets. The ones with wings are Daemon Princes of Tzeentch.
They are unpainted !! - In the last month I put together 3000+ points of Chaos Daemons, scultping and casting some of them, painted 60+ models, and all the terrain on the table we are playing.
They are too small !! - What ? Those 4 guys standing around that Blood Thirster are "too small" to be greater Daemons ?
I'm finding Screamers of Tzeentch very useful summoned in squads of 3. Is it worth fielding them in larger numbers, as part of your starting force ?
i would not play against a couple of mcdonalds toys ;S hopefully the terrain and table is beautifully painted
When proxying, you must remember the rule of cool.
Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against inappropriate proxies. This is exacerbated by summoning. More than one TO has insisted on no proxies for summoned units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it's a fine line... I've been running my homemade battlefleet tyranid fleet as screamers.... I think they look cool... And a lot of effort went into the painting and modelling... But they aren't screamers,and anytime I put them down , I'm ready for an objection.
astroth wrote: I would not play against a couple of mcdonalds toys ;S hopefully the terrain and table is beautifully painted
It's a good thing I'm not fielding McDonlads toys.
The tables feature, felt covered, 8ftx4ft gaming surfaces a foot above 8ft x 5ft tables, which are also felt lined, with a bottom shelf 6inch above the floor. They are superior to anything I've ever encountered, or even seen in a gaming shop. They provide ample space for everything the players bring with them, off of the gaming surface. The terrain is pretty sweet as well.
Captyn_Bob wrote:When proxying, you must remember the rule of cool.
They are big, demony, and feature lots of conversion and custom sculpting. What is not cool about that ? Sure, they are unpainted at the moment, but our gaming tables have seen lots of unpainted, and base coated black miniatures hit the field as well.
Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against inappropriate proxies.
Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against anything.
The situation I'm having is people know the army I'm working on, decide they have hard counter for it, challenge me to a game, and then getting increasingly butthurt, when I start winning.
This is exacerbated by summoning. More than one TO has insisted on no proxies for summoned units.
I get that. If I were playing in a tournament, I wouldn't even bring this army. I'm playing this army with my weekly gaming group, who plays on two massive gaming tables I built in my basement. For all practical purposes, I am the TO of the gaming group, and we've never head issues with people playing with conversions, third party manufacturers products, and straight up Chinese bootlegs.
I posted the min rant because I'm annoyed that the amount of complaints is directly proportional to how badly they are losing any particular game.
The same guy who had zero complaints when he blew me out of the water with his poorly painted Grey Knights, suddenly had issues the next week when he challenged me to a rematch with his Red Talons and he figured out it was only his Librairan that got extra VPs for killing Pyskers and it was not an army wide rule.
Souza, what's the list you're running currently? Also SIX Keepers. . .that's awesome lol.
I took my 1500 summoning centric list against eldar (old eldar now I guess) Serpent Spam and had a pretty rough match of it. We were playing Scouring w/ modified Maelstrom in hammer and anvil deployment, and I just couldn't get close enough to start doing real damage. Didn't help that I played Be'Lakor too aggressively on Turn 1 and lost him Turn 2 to only two Serpents. . . I ended up making a pretty close game of it and could have even won it if only I hadn't derped and summoned a unit that wasn't necessary instead of putting all my warp charges toward flickering fire like I should have. I also failed a couple crucial FF's on 3 dice each. Ouch. I don't know, overall I was a little bummed out with the lack of initial hitting power, and went back to playing something with a few less warp charges, but a lot more immediate threats. Also I just painted two Flyrants that I've had around for ever so I've been having fun with my DaemoBugs. Leviathan cheese FTW. I still want to try to get a handle on a summoning list that can do better though.
CAD2
HQ1 Blue Scribes
HQ2 4 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (Maelific, 1 on Disc) Grimoire
2x Pink Horrors x12
FA Screamers (as many as points allows)
I haven't tried playing a Screamerstar yet, so this will be a first.
Possesion has 1 in 6 odds of coming up, and the list grants me 25 attempts, so average of 4 should come up.
Sacrifice to get more level 2 heralds for more possesion attempts
Blue Scribes get off a warp charge free maelific power each turn (50% odds of pink horrors, heralds, or screamers)
Portalglyph for 50% chance at more pink horrors for more warp charges
I now have a half dozen Keeper of Secrets, 70+ pink horrors, 21 screamers, and a dozen heralds, so I shouldn't run out of models
With a screamerstar in that kind of list I would definitely want a unit of 9 screamers and at least 3 heralds on discs because you never know which of your heralds is going to roll the all important cursed earth and its going to be targeted to oblivion the turn that fateys reroll lets you down and the grimoire fails. I would also consider a backup unit of at least 7 screamers for harassment and insurance should you fail the grimoire and your star get shot to pieces
I'll have to toy with battlescribe to better see what I can jam in there.
I've been getting by with summoning Greater Daemons, and heralds, faster than they kill them. Adding the screamers was just a way to put some pressure on the opposing forces turn 1. Screamerstar was kind of an after thought to keep them alive longer. If I can make it work though, I'll do it.
Yeah i mean considering youre bringing that many Tz'eralds anyway, its not a stretch to put a couple more on discs. You might want to think about putting either greater or lesser rewards on the 2 non grimoire disc heralds for some extra ap2 attacks on a unit that a lot of opponents are going to want to tie down as quickly as possible.
The odds of rolling a specific power you want are 1 in 6, or 16%, but you can't have the same power multiple times on the same Psyker, so you re-roll duplicate powers, making the odds better.
1st power roll 16% (1 in 6)
2nd power roll 20% (1 in 5)
3rd power roll 25% (1 in 4)
So, if I did my mathhammer right, a level 3 Psyker has a 61% of getting any one power, if he rolls all his powers on the same table.
So each level 3 Herald of Tzeentch will have a 61% chance of getting possession if they generate all their powers from Maelific.
Level 2 Tzeentch Herald has only a 36% chance, but can be summoned himself via Sacrifice.
Unfortunately no, if you get the power then your 2nd and 3rd rolls can't get the power you want so:
1st roll: 1/6
second roll: 5/6*1/5=1/6 probability of not having the power times the probability to get it this roll.
3rd roll: 4/6*1/4=1/6
So the rule that prevents you from getting two the same powers hurts you just as badly as that it helps you . After you failed the first roll then the probability of the second roll to get it is indeed higher, but before you start rolling it isn't.
The odds of rolling a specific power you want are 1 in 6, or 16%, but you can't have the same power multiple times on the same Psyker, so you re-roll duplicate powers, making the odds better.
1st power roll 16% (1 in 6)
2nd power roll 20% (1 in 5)
3rd power roll 25% (1 in 4)
So, if I did my mathhammer right, a level 3 Psyker has a 61% of getting any one power, if he rolls all his powers on the same table.
So each level 3 Herald of Tzeentch will have a 61% chance of getting possession if they generate all their powers from Maelific.
Level 2 Tzeentch Herald has only a 36% chance, but can be summoned himself via Sacrifice.
You don't simply add them together. That's not how you do math.
Let me give you an example on how your process is flawed.
Lets assume that instead of 1 sacrifice, there is are 3 on the malefic table
So it would be 3/6 + 3/5 + 3/4
Which would equal 185%. Which is impossible because you can't have more then 100% but also there is still a chance of you picking 3 that aren't so it wouldn't even be 100%.
What you are suppose to do is multiply the chance of failure together and subtract it from 1. So it would look like 1-(5/6*4/5*3/4) which equals 0.5 so 50%
Unfortunately no, if you get the power then your 2nd and 3rd rolls can't get the power you want so:
1st roll: 1/6
second roll: 5/6*1/5=1/6 probability of not having the power times the probability to get it this roll.
3rd roll: 4/6*1/4=1/6
So the rule that prevents you from getting two the same powers hurts you just as badly as that it helps you . After you failed the first roll then the probability of the second roll to get it is indeed higher, but before you start rolling it isn't.
I did figure it that way originally. The problem with that is that way says getting a single 6 on 3 dice, re-rolling duplicate numbers, has the same probability as rolling a 6 on a single die, which can't be right.
What you are suppose to do is multiply the chance of failure together and subtract it from 1. So it would look like 1-(5/6*4/5*3/4) which equals 0.5 so 50%
Yeah, I defintely brain farted. I blame it on lack of sleep, caffeine, and public education not spending any sufficient time determining the probability of dice rolls.
In any case, my numbers of 61% and 36% may have been off, but 50% and 33% are both still pretty decent odds.
My list has 7 lvl 3 Heralds with a 50% chance each of getting Possession or Sacrifice.
Those getting Possession stand a good chance of turning into Greater Daemons, while those with sacrifice can attempt to summon lvl2 heralds each turn, who each have a 33% chance of having possession.
It is succesfull if you get it at the first, second or third attempt. So you add the individual probabilities and you get 3/6, which is 0.5, exactly what you get. You are not supposed to do it either way, it's just that sometimes it is easier to collect all the possibilities for failure rather than for succes.
e.g. if you want to get the odds of rolling anywhere between a sum of 3-17 with three dice, you can add the probabilities of 3,4,5..17 or you can calculate the probability of rolling 18 and substract that from 1.
You are right. It's the re-rolling duplicate numbers that complicates things. 6 dice would exhaust all possible options, so unlike finding to hit or damage percentages you can achieve 100%. My math was wrong becuase I didn't factor in the percentage chance of reroll to the rerolls chance of success. Which you did mention, I'm just saying it to illustrate my comprehension, Thanks for the help clarifying that.
I started this thread when I started my Chaos Daemons army, and have continued it throughout their evolution. If you have any questions or comments about Daemon Factories I'd love to ehar them. The people following this thread have been insightful and greatly helpful with this project.
Original Recipe Tried and True List
Spoiler:
Fateweaver - For Warp Storm mitigation and re-roll
Heralds of Tzeentch lvl3 x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Each Herald has a 50% chance to get each spell from Maelifc. 4 of them usually grants an excellent mix of Sacrifice, Incursion, and Possession)
Pink Horrors (12) x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Nothing is better than Pink Horrors becoming Greater Daemons, or at least summoning more Pink Horrors. Also, these are the wounds you sacrifice to sumon more lvl 2 Tzeentch Heralds.
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch x2 - Yoiur heavy hitters of the list
New and Sexy Dual CAD List
Spoiler:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch lvl3 (x4) - All Maelific
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc lvl3 (x3) - All Maelific, all 3 with Exalted Rewards
Pink Horrors (12) x4
Screamers of Tzeentch x9
Screamers of Tzeentch x8
Dropped the Daemon Princes for Screamers. The Screamers jet bike nature and slashing attacks allow them to a turn 1 threat to the enemy. They are ridiculously mobile and their Lamprey's bite rule makes them a threat to vehicles. If one of your heralds on a disc get's Cursed Earth (50% chance each herald) it opens up the combination with the Grimoire (Exalted Reward) for 2++ saves.
The list starts the game with 7 Psykers who each have 50% odds of drawing Possesssion, and 4 units of Horrors with a 16% chance at getting Possession, for an average of 4 Possessions turn 1 with 33+d6 warp charges to pull it off.
Those Psykers, who don't get possessed, and have Sacrifce (50% odds), can summon Lvl2 Heralds, who have a 33% chance each of having possession
I am looking for some clarification on how to build a 1000-1250 point factory (if possible). I mainly use (fluffy Nurgle) Vraks/IA13 list as a new player.and of course I would like it to be as competitive as possible, as I ran a Purge list and won my first game vs. a Harlequin/Eldar player on god like rolls with my Wyverns and Blight Drones. I am now looking to get more DS units on the field while retaining my Barrage/Blast artillery and Mutant/zombie tarpit. So of course I want to overwhelm with a factory. if I can at all. Please keep in mind I am interested in using CSM/Daemon list to do this not necessarily renegades. However when thinking on on this i ran across something I thought could be viable in accumulating WC's while still using my Vraks renegade's (CSM's)while adding in a AD of Daemons.
In the new Siege of Vraks I found I could get 12 WC dice for 470 points (2 HQ choice of one 5-man Psyker Coven, a single demagogue (as a lv2 Rogue Witch,) then one elite choice of a 5-man Psyker Coven for a total of 10 dice. Like someone already pointed out I don't have to use them to summon and the Coven still act as independent models similar to how Heralds work in the Daemon Codex. Stick them in a bastion (or whatever your fancy). This may seem expensive but they are only on the field to get the ball rolling while adding some cheap firepower (through the detachment) without sacrificing dice. What i really like is the idea of adding in Crimson Slaughter or CSM units (has to be one or other) as Battle Brothers running a CAD,or Purge detachment. Now i can get the rerolling tank buff and the rerolling DP in the same detachment.The Purge detachment gives you a stupid amount of elites options and plenty of troop slots a fortification and a Lord of War.
I know the rule of thumb is pick one thing, maximize it and be good at it, but as a new player I love the fluff of Vraks and Nurgle (All Chaos Nurgle,) and am just looking to try and make my list versatile but still fun and competitive.
Adamsouza I sent you a PM. I think I might have confused myself posting so late at night. No I just want to use either a standard CAD or Purge detachment of Vraks Renegades with an allied detachments of CSM and/or Daemons. Is it possible to get some level of a factory going? I pointed out Vraks because I like Renegades and there is a contested rule in Siege of Vraks about selecting CSM and Renegades in the same Purge detachment. As it turns out there was an FAQ from FW stating the opposite, so meh. Of course I was hoping they were just expanding on how Daemonkin works currently but of course no dice it seems.
Regardless being able to generate 12 dice for so cheap has to be a good start given the possibilities of using the spare points to get more dakka and zombies!
I don't have the codex in front of me but, It's definitely possible to run a 1000-1200 point CAD of Daemon Factory. All the psykers in the Chaos Daemons codex can take Maelific, so they would all get Summon as a Primaris plus whatever they rolled. If you are dead set on sticking with Nurgle, your best option is to field 4 heralds of Nurgle. You could make them all lvl2 and give them the foci of fercundicity (?) that grants Feel No Pain to whatever unit they are part of.
Tzeentch has an easier time with Daemon Factorys in mind. Tzeentch heralds can be lvl3 pyskers, and pink horrors are all brotherhood of sorcerers. 12 Pink horrors generate 2 warp charges for only 108 points.
Again no codex in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you can grab 4 lvl3 Heralds of Tzeentch and 4 12 Daemon strong Squads of Pink Horrors for about 800 points, generating 20 WC, 8 casters, and 16 powers ( everyone also gets summon). On an average roll, 2 of your heralds would pull Possession, and you could trade them in for Great Unclean Ones. With 12 powers on the heralds, you should also get some incursion, and bring some more Plague Drones in as well.
800 for this detachment + 470 for your vraks WC coven and you would have something like 32 WC
) has been a very satisfying 
)
