The one guy in the group that DOES take tourney play "seriously" just keeps playing the same broken crap he's always done - and he left the group anyway, so we don't actually care much.
notprop wrote: This is a refresh on fluff, I don't see any suggestion of GW basically dropping what 25-40% of their turnover.
WHFB "unbound" would be my bet.
Like the above poster WHFB is still very popular at my club and most the others nearby too.
WHFB is (apparently) only about 8% of GWs turnover now, which is probably one of the main reasons for the big 'bang'
but I agree that a lot more of the old stuff will survive the transition than some expect (but no finecast or metal, and probably nothing that looks too much like any traditional historical range from a competitor)
I still seem to be lost. As far as I can tell GW are doing some major event in the run up to a new edition. Why would anyone be putting WHFB on clearance? Or are we assuming again that the sky is falling because something is changing?
Steve: The event was End Times. What Kyoto posted was the end of End Times, and that's affecting 9th ed. The strong rumours coming through are that the background is radically changed, and so are the nature of the armies and rules mechanics, to some extent. The hints include six factions of indeterminate race or allegiance, save one comprised of some kind of superhumans (ostensibly imitating 40K's space marines and hopefully their success) and reduction of the game size to 'skirmish' (likely more 40K or Warmachine 'skirmish' than Mordheim 'skirmish'). It's not known which current races will be canned, if any, how compatible they'll be with the new rules, and how scalable the rules will be; but a lot of people with large armies of threatened factions are treading on eggshells.
It's shaping up to be a considerable revamp, with smaller, more steampunk armies existing in multiple micro-universe 'bubbles'. The smaller cost of entry will be easier for new players, but it remains to be seen if enough of them will care, and if they'll make up for the alienation of a lot of existing players, who're already staying away in droves.
Game shops with a lot of current WFB stock on the shelves could find it difficult to shift, between people dropping out and people moving on to the new minis. Sure there'll be folk sticking with 8th ed or earlier, but given the general craving for 'official, current' GW products (some of those dropouts are immediately putting their big, old, slaved-over armies on ebay, as if they had some kind of 'use by' or 'not compatible with' label that suddenly expired) I'm sceptical that there'll be significant numbers.
Notprop: there are a lot of Cassandras here, but y'know, nobody believed Cassandra until the sky actually fell.
9th ed will either save or kill WFB: at this point 'selling the same as before' will likely kill it. And given that GW's more popular skirmish game, with all it's moneymaking idiosyncracies and foibles, isn't stemming the fall in sales too well, I have a feeling GW doesn't really know how to pull this off.
I think you need to poke your fingers somewhere else, but that's not really my business.
All I've said is that there is no evidence of anything at the moment except the fluff change that has been the subject of 5 published books to date that have added to the model range rather than lessened it.
I've heard enough rumours to the contrary to believe that's not true. At most I think it MIGHT be true in the USA, but I think globally it's got to be more than that.
Pro-rumour opinions are backed up by strong sources and GW's track record of messing things around and dropping properties that aren't doing so well like they were a snake. As far as I can see, anti-rumour opinions are backed up by sheer disbelief, personal remarks and... not much else. If that's your level of persuasion, Notprop, I feel fairly confident.
I havent seen any evidence for either side, Ive seen a bunch of unsubstantiated rumour mongering but not much else.
Even if (and it is an if, no matter what anyone says) they change WarHams into a skirmish style game, people will still play large battles with the current rules.
Evidence?
People still play WAB fairly extensively and thats been OOP for years, The community is strong enough for WAB that we still have an annual sold out tournament.
I have no doubt Warhams would be the same in that eventuality.
A while back I bought a fantasy model (for conversion) and my story owner was genuinely surprised. "You actually play fantasy?"
The fantasy game is slowly dying, at least in the US and is on life support now.
I would have done market research to find out why people weren't buying, fix those problems and announce as publicly as I could that "we listened and here's the game you've always wanted!" Like Lego did.
But, GW being GW decided to just scrap everything and start again with no understanding of how or why.
MWHistorian wrote: A while back I bought a fantasy model (for conversion) and my story owner was genuinely surprised. "You actually play fantasy?"
The fantasy game is slowly dying, at least in the US and is on life support now.
I would have done market research to find out why people weren't buying, fix those problems and announce as publicly as I could that "we listened and here's the game you've always wanted!" Like Lego did.
But, GW being GW decided to just scrap everything and start again with no understanding of how or why.
On the plus side maybe that means people will be more willing to look at an alternative like Kings of War than dismiss it because it's not GW.
Over here people have been trying to sell their armies for months and no one is picking them up. I sure am glad that I unloaded most of mine when 8th edition was released. I guess I'll keep my Dark Elves as a tribute to my younger self.
My local FLGS got rid of all of their stock last fall at half price. They got rid of it because the game was simply not selling. I guess if they had any left that probably would have made it even cheaper by now.
Over here people have been trying to sell their armies for months and no one is picking them up. I sure am glad that I unloaded most of mine when 8th edition was released. I guess I'll keep my Dark Elves as a tribute to my younger self.
I'm about to sell a WHFB army, but only because I've exceed my self-regulated 'maximum amount of armies that you are allowed at any one time' level, and also because I haven't used it since 6-7th edition.
But, I don't feel the guilt you might expect about doing this about it as there is nothing to stop the person buying and using from KoW, even if these rumours do come to pass and 8th edition armies become unusable with 9th edition rules.
I think closer to the release of 9th there will be a lot of stuff, either made redundant in 9th or made out of finecast, that will simply vanish without anything much being said (probably when the armies list on the online store gets updated).
I think it'll be the FLGSs thay have all the fun when they can't return any old kits- "Sorry, we can't take trade-ins on those kits, they're no longer being produced." Hopefully a lot of places will be selling the core range of WHFB (i.e. plastic range) at this point and not be significantly impacted, but we'll have to wait and see.
I do continue to be glad I traded my Lizards for someone's Menoth some months ago, even if I've never actually gotten around to doing anything with them yet.
Heh. I've been waiting for this. Now is the time to buy loads of Fantasy stuff from people on eBay who are desperate to flog their minis because they think that GW has flushed WHFB down the toilet. Then use the minis to play 4th ed! Mwahahahah...
Well I sure haven't found people bailing out, in fact in the time of collecting my Skaven and High Elves, I've found people greatly marking stuff up from what it's value is, or holding on to it with an iron death grip.
I mean seriously I just need 20 Phoenix Guard and it's like pulling teeth to find a trade partner who will wheel and deal.
I'm just going to wait and see how 9th looks. I mean I'll admit I'm worried it will suck, but I have two 2500 point armies, and their respective rulebooks, and the main mini book for 8th and 7th for that matter. I'm good atm.
Now if KoW had a Skaven like faction I'd give them a look, but last I checked the people with the cats was a human faction and I hate humans in my fantasy so...if the elves get White Lions parallel I might...look I mean, I'd have to find a series that is one for one transfer of minis to rules before I switch away from GW...but...ah heck I'm rambling.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Well I sure haven't found people bailing out, in fact in the time of collecting my Skaven and High Elves, I've found people greatly marking stuff up from what it's value is, or holding on to it with an iron death grip.
I mean seriously I just need 20 Phoenix Guard and it's like pulling teeth to find a trade partner who will wheel and deal.
I'm just going to wait and see how 9th looks. I mean I'll admit I'm worried it will suck, but I have two 2500 point armies, and their respective rulebooks, and the main mini book for 8th and 7th for that matter. I'm good atm.
Now if KoW had a Skaven like faction I'd give them a look, but last I checked the people with the cats was a human faction and I hate humans in my fantasy so...if the elves get White Lions parallel I might...look I mean, I'd have to find a series that is one for one transfer of minis to rules before I switch away from GW...but...ah heck I'm rambling.
The plan with KoW was to do an expansion book of minor kingdoms/army lists which would just so happen to include armies like beastlymen, lizard men, rat men etc. Originally just download/semi-official only but with the impending WHFB changes they were going to be made fully official.
Remember that planet your models used to stand on?
It's gone!
Whole planet, is no more!
I mean yeah GW will put out SOMETHING to replace it and many of the models will remain in production, but End Times already says the characters we once knew are D-E-D dead.
Not a good time to have a shelf full of WHFB stock.
So, was that image in the OP from the last End Times book? Is the world really gone? I'd like to pick up a few fantasy kits for conversion material for 40k before they've dried up. Should I be worried?
Remember that planet your models used to stand on?
It's gone!
Whole planet, is no more!
I mean yeah GW will put out SOMETHING to replace it and many of the models will remain in production, but End Times already says the characters we once knew are D-E-D dead.
Not a good time to have a shelf full of WHFB stock.
"There's no way GW would destroy their fantasy setting and kill all their best-known fantasy characters! There's no evidence for it!"
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: So, was that image in the OP from the last End Times book? Is the world really gone? I'd like to pick up a few fantasy kits for conversion material for 40k before they've dried up. Should I be worried?
Currently unknown which kits are going away (except for obviously characters I guess) but solid rumors from reputable sources have said that basically armies are being rolled together and the entire range is going to be reduced by a great deal and then splash releases of stuff like with end times going forward (because you silly people bought all that stuff so it means you love buying splash releases).
Remember that planet your models used to stand on?
It's gone!
Whole planet, is no more!
I mean yeah GW will put out SOMETHING to replace it and many of the models will remain in production, but End Times already says the characters we once knew are D-E-D dead.
Not a good time to have a shelf full of WHFB stock.
"There's no way GW would destroy their fantasy setting and kill all their best-known fantasy characters! There's no evidence for it!"
This is too funny. Instead of fixing what's wrong, just blow it up and start something over without any idea if its going to be any good or not. From a writing percpective, that's just terrible.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: So, was that image in the OP from the last End Times book? Is the world really gone? I'd like to pick up a few fantasy kits for conversion material for 40k before they've dried up. Should I be worried?
Currently unknown which kits are going away (except for obviously characters I guess) but solid rumors from reputable sources have said that basically armies are being rolled together and the entire range is going to be reduced by a great deal and then splash releases of stuff like with end times going forward (because you silly people bought all that stuff so it means you love buying splash releases).
The only thing those "solid rumors from reputable sources" have said is that there are a lot of big changes coming for the game.
There has been very little in the way of specific information concerning the armies, outside of vague mentions of an "Army of Light" with some kind of Fantasy Space Marine analogues and the starter set for 9th edition being "Chaos versus Humans".
The armies being rolled together and entire range being reduced are things that have been mentioned, but unsubstantiated to any real extent by reputable rumormongers.
The "splash releases of stuff like with End Times" as well is not the same as what has been rumored by the same source which talked about armies being "rolled together--and not in the same way that the End Times did it" and "the entire range being reduced to the point of Cavalry, Spearmen, Archers in the case of Elves for Core"--which is that new releases will only consist of limited edition models.
Harry specifically mentioned that he didn't see certain armies surviving and the line being drastically reduced in scale. Granted he was postulating but I credit his assumptions with a great deal more weight than the guesstimations of others. I'll have to go back but he was pretty much substantiating what some other source that's been nearly 100% accurate so far has been saying.
I'm not running around with my hair on fire but I'm also not running out and buying anything.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: So, was that image in the OP from the last End Times book? Is the world really gone? I'd like to pick up a few fantasy kits for conversion material for 40k before they've dried up. Should I be worried?
Currently unknown which kits are going away (except for obviously characters I guess) but solid rumors from reputable sources have said that basically armies are being rolled together and the entire range is going to be reduced by a great deal and then splash releases of stuff like with end times going forward (because you silly people bought all that stuff so it means you love buying splash releases).
The only thing those "solid rumors from reputable sources" have said is that there are a lot of big changes coming for the game.
There has been very little in the way of specific information concerning the armies, outside of vague mentions of an "Army of Light" with some kind of Fantasy Space Marine analogues and the starter set for 9th edition being "Chaos versus Humans".
The armies being rolled together and entire range being reduced are things that have been mentioned, but unsubstantiated to any real extent by reputable rumormongers.
The "splash releases of stuff like with End Times" as well is not the same as what has been rumored by the same source which talked about armies being "rolled together--and not in the same way that the End Times did it" and "the entire range being reduced to the point of Cavalry, Spearmen, Archers in the case of Elves for Core"--which is that new releases will only consist of limited edition models.
Wait, I thought the 9th edition starter kit was to be Orcs vs Empire?
That aside I am not liking the way WHFB is going. Whilst I am glad that we are finally pulling back to sane levels of models (skirmish sized forces) this whole ending the world thing is just plain stupid. And blowing it up is even more so. And now we are hearing that in 9th all the armies are getting compressed, we are getting fantasy Space Marines (like GW needed MORE space marines anyway), all the special and established characters have bit the dust, except for Sigmar, the whole unbound element stinks of 40K 7th ed and more to the point how the hell are we fighting if there is nothing to fight on? Floating islands in the warp? Probably
Automatically Appended Next Post: More to the point, what am I going to do with all my Skaven? I was living in the hopes of 9th/End Times reviving the fantasy scene in my area but after this
While I hate everything about Planet of the Apes...no truer words have been spoken in regards to Warhammer right now. I feel like my fear and rage is probably going to burned out though by the time 9th hits all it will see is apathy. Just one big *siiiiigh* from me right now.
MWHistorian wrote: This is too funny. Instead of fixing what's wrong, just blow it up and start something over without any idea if its going to be any good or not. From a writing percpective, that's just terrible.
From what I can tell though, that seemed like the only thing they could do. They had several editions to fix what was wrong over several years and it never seemed like they would come close. They would fix one problem but create several more in the process.
Spoiler:
So I don't blame them for the nuked-from-orbit plan.
MWHistorian wrote: This is too funny. Instead of fixing what's wrong, just blow it up and start something over without any idea if its going to be any good or not. From a writing percpective, that's just terrible.
From what I can tell though, that seemed like the only thing they could do. They had several editions to fix what was wrong over several years and it never seemed like they would come close. They would fix one problem but create several more in the process.
Spoiler:
So I don't blame them for the nuked-from-orbit plan.
That's not an issue with the process, though. That's an issue with GW refusing to learn.
They don't take the good and improve the bad from edition to edition, they simply make changes seemingly for the sake of making changes.
In reality the only difference between their usual plan and the "nuke it from orbit" plan is that they're eliminating the background, which is the major thing, in my experience, that keeps people playing.
Well my plan is still going to be sit and wait, even if it does feel like sitting on pins and needles atm.
Still if this is like the parallel to the firestorm WOTC created during 3.5 to 4th D&D.
I wonder who becomes WHFB's Pathfinder. (I.E. Oh you have an army of minis AND their rulebook? Here is how you convert those rules to OUR Fantasy battle system, which is just like the system your used too, just streamlined.)
ProtoClone wrote:
From what I can tell though, that seemed like the only thing they could do. They had several editions to fix what was wrong over several years and it never seemed like they would come close.
Well, that's assuming that they wanted to fix it...
Deadawake1347 wrote:
That's not an issue with the process, though. That's an issue with GW refusing to learn.
They don't take the good and improve the bad from edition to edition, they simply make changes seemingly for the sake of making changes.
Emphasis mine. Yup. If you have the attitude that people will buy your stuff regardless of quality (because they do), why would you work towards a tight, balanced, ultimate version, when you can just shake the snowglobe every four years or so and get people to buy the same thing again?
GW's problem now is that's blown up in their faces: among other factors like skyrocketing prices, more and more people are waking up to the pointless rules churn, especially the terrible disregard for balance that affected 7th ed, and the randomfest and 'buy more hordes and big monsters' spendfest that affected 8th ed. Apparently they realise one of the latter points with the rumoured downsizing of 9th, but otherwise they still seem to be going with their old standby of just chucking out whatever's not doing so well (+ customers) rather than wonder why it's not doing so well.
To be honest, with that track record, part of me is surprised there's a 9th ed at all.
I believe there's a Skaven fan list (and the culture of KoW seems to suggest this sort of thing is much more widely accepted) and I've read somewhere recently that an official, or at least endorsed, list for each WHFB faction not already well represented has had its development accelerated in light of recent developments.
Skaven can be played very well using official rules as a Goblin Counts As army in KoW. Also since allies are a prevalent feature of the game (I've seen armies with units from multiple 'pure' armies) you can add stuff like Ogres as Rat Ogres; Chariots or Battlewagons from either Orcs or Ogres, too.
As to the OP's question, one of our FLGS has put WFB and LOTR/Hobbit all up for 50% off. I don't think it's due to the upcoming changes but rather that nobody buys the stuff and he wants the shelf space back. He has not reduced prices on 40k and may be expanding that to take over the opened space.
As to the OP's question, one of our FLGS has put WFB and LOTR/Hobbit all up for 50% off. I don't think it's due to the upcoming changes but rather that nobody buys the stuff and he wants the shelf space back. He has not reduced prices on 40k and may be expanding that to take over the opened space.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Vermis:
Kings of War may have a place for my High Elves, but no Skaven facsimile is there.
As mentioned, there's a ratmen list for KoW by... Ah, what was Matt Gilbert's role with Mantic, again? That's what got me buying WFB models again, although my focus has shifted a bit since.
Mayhem sounds interesting but other then you I've heard nothing about it.
Tell me about it. I'd'a thought folk already tired of WFB and switching to different rules for their expensive armies could spend a couple of dollars for a look-see. I could count the number of hooks I got on Dakka on the fingers of one hand, if my hand was involved in a firework accident. But you might get a few more references somewhere like the Lead Adventure Forum.
Some of the ranges might seem a bit short, and I'd bump the suggested 60mm square unit for 28mm up to 80mm (add another 20mm strip and you've got a KoW regiment!) but I like the command point system (after Warmaster and Hail Caesar I'm hooked on command and control in mass battle games), I think the polydice mechanic is innovative, and the unit creation rules deftly sidestep the army list issue.
I bang on about Legions of Battle too. A bit different but has it's own unit creation rules. I'd say it reads like a cross between Warhammer and Hail Caesar, with the intent to be compatible with the former's models and basing conventions, but skewing the gameplay a little towards the latter.
The others again, nothing looks like I'll find someone here stateside to game with those systems.
Pathfinder had to start somewhere too, among the disgruntled ex-players of the big, 'mainstream' game.
Sigvatr wrote: KoW 2.0 will feature army lists for all WHFB armies, iirc.
That's great.
Too bad nobody I know plays KoW.
Like I said to Yodhrin, you can try to promote a game yourself or you can sit around feeling sorry for yourself. If you still can't get anyone to play KoW or one of the many other compatible battle games, that's too bad, but you won't know unless you cut the apron strings and make an effort.
So I'm not the only one who thinks Karl Franz is going walk out of the shower after having a weird dream.
Karl Franz is too tame. It will definitely be Sigmar.
Karl Franz became Sigmar to kill an orc once. That was weird, man.
As for me, I'm shelving all my Warhammer. I've been annoyed at the game since the ET stuff turned the entire game into an arms race, and I don't actually want to associate with the company that released all that stuff any more.
Depending on whether 9th will hook me back in depends on whether the edition is perfect or not. At this point, it's not looking likely
My lfgs just put all Fantasy stuff 30% and is not ordering anymore.
Basicly he has said since there is no way of knowing what's getting canned he is selling all of it to make sure he is not left with a load of dead stock.
Considering what escalation and stronghold assault led 40k into, these end times books are just a teasing of what they want to do, mishmashed bs armies and complete disregard for integrity of the soul of the game.
I haven't seen any stores marking down fantasy stuff but I keep an eye on ebay and thing aren't really moving unless they are dirt cheap. The usual rarities sell but for the most part it is very stagnant.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing anything coming down to affordability, but then again I'm only looking for Phoenix Guard right now.
And only have about 15 bucks and stuff in my dakka swap to trade for them.
Still I have seen a lot of fantasy sitting as well, so it's not coming down in price but it's not selling either for the most part.
Happens every edition change. At this point the panic sellers have already sold. That ship has sailed. Now the wait & see group is well, waitng
Nobodys really buying but nobody is looking to sell either, expect to see more buying and selling when new edition drops.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing anything coming down to affordability, but then again I'm only looking for Phoenix Guard right now.
And only have about 15 bucks and stuff in my dakka swap to trade for them.
Still I have seen a lot of fantasy sitting as well, so it's not coming down in price but it's not selling either for the most part.
Happens every edition change. At this point the panic sellers have already sold. That ship has sailed. Now the wait & see group is well, waitng
Nobodys really buying but nobody is looking to sell either, expect to see more buying and selling when new edition drops.
It's a bit disingenuous to say it " happens every edition change", when the game is being changed in a huge way, the background is dead and the rumours point at a different type of game altogether. Not exactly 6th edition to 7th edition change, is it?
Ravenous D wrote: Considering what escalation and stronghold assault led 40k into, these end times books are just a teasing of what they want to do, mishmashed bs armies and complete disregard for integrity of the soul of the game.
Please dont, I cannot bare to see another instawinbutton super smurf mary sue army coming into existence to spoil another of GW's games
KingmanHighborn wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing anything coming down to affordability, but then again I'm only looking for Phoenix Guard right now.
And only have about 15 bucks and stuff in my dakka swap to trade for them.
Still I have seen a lot of fantasy sitting as well, so it's not coming down in price but it's not selling either for the most part.
Happens every edition change. At this point the panic sellers have already sold. That ship has sailed. Now the wait & see group is well, waitng
Nobodys really buying but nobody is looking to sell either, expect to see more buying and selling when new edition drops.
This is a little more than an edition change. The trend I see has been going on for 8-12 months. Hard to get collectable stuff sells, but the mundane sits and sits unless the seller really brings down the price. Some of it is that sellers think they deserve retail $ for their used stuff and some just appears to be genuine disinterest.
No, it honestly does happen every edition change. I remember the sky was falling when step up attacks and random charge ranges were announced. When a 12 dice magic phase would ruin everyone but dwarfs. When those new test or die spells would make X unplayable or how steadfast would turn the game into belt sander vs belt sander.
There are wild and crazy rumours every time and the cycle continues. This is just like storm of chaos except for the "ending" which they already wrote themselves an out for in book III.
It may be a bigger change than before but you missed my point, which is panic sellers have sold and many players will hold off buying until we see new rules before we commit to buying or selling hundreds if not thousands of dollars. This is why the market is stagnant.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: No, it honestly does happen every edition change. I remember the sky was falling when step up attacks and random charge ranges were announced. When a 12 dice magic phase would ruin everyone but dwarfs.
There are wild and crazy rumours every time and the cycle continues. This is just like storm of chaos except for the "ending" which they already wrote themselves an out for in book III.
It may be a bigger change than before but you missed my point, which is panic sellers have sold and many players will hold off buying until we see new rules before we commit to buying or selling hundreds if not thousands of dollars. This is why the market is stagnant.
Considering that 8th edition killed Fantasy, it appears that the sky really did fall with step up attacks and random charges.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing anything coming down to affordability, but then again I'm only looking for Phoenix Guard right now.
And only have about 15 bucks and stuff in my dakka swap to trade for them.
Still I have seen a lot of fantasy sitting as well, so it's not coming down in price but it's not selling either for the most part.
Happens every edition change. At this point the panic sellers have already sold. That ship has sailed. Now the wait & see group is well, waitng
Nobodys really buying but nobody is looking to sell either, expect to see more buying and selling when new edition drops.
I wouldn't say its panic sellers, we all know that GW balances things buy utterly screwing over most of the stuff that was good. I cycle out my armies to stay ahead of that curve, the only time I gave them a chance I had $450 worth of paper weights. Really you have two options, 1) cycle your armies every year or two or 2) make 2 or 3 massive armies with all the options and hope they don't all get nerfed.
Ravenous D wrote: Considering what escalation and stronghold assault led 40k into, these end times books are just a teasing of what they want to do, mishmashed bs armies and complete disregard for integrity of the soul of the game.
Please dont, I cannot bare to see another instawinbutton super smurf mary sue army coming into existence to spoil another of GW's games
Well considering the unbound rumours and chaos currently able to have skaven and undead, it looks like GW is turning warhammer into heroscape.
I think that 8th ed had some good ideas, like the step up attacks and the removal of the charger goes first rule (I have many memories of Brettonian lance formations raping my Skaven spear blocks) but at the same time the magic phase was blown so far out of proportion that it became a joke.
Emphasis mine. Yup. If you have the attitude that people will buy your stuff regardless of quality (because they do), why would you work towards a tight, balanced, ultimate version, when you can just shake the snowglobe every four years or so and get people to buy the same thing again?
GW's problem now is that's blown up in their faces: among other factors like skyrocketing prices, more and more people are waking up to the pointless rules churn, especially the terrible disregard for balance that affected 7th ed, and the randomfest and 'buy more hordes and big monsters' spendfest that affected 8th ed. Apparently they realise one of the latter points with the rumoured downsizing of 9th, but otherwise they still seem to be going with their old standby of just chucking out whatever's not doing so well (+ customers) rather than wonder why it's not doing so well.
To be honest, with that track record, part of me is surprised there's a 9th ed at all.
Seriously though, am I the only one who gets the feeling that 90% of the people whining on here are 40K players who haven't actually touched their WHFB minis since 6th or 7th?
You've got me there, PRND. But I'll let you into a wee secret: that edition you like? That eighth edition? There's a whole lot of other people who stopped playing it, and stopped buying stuff for it, for largely the same reasons. I don't have to play the game right this instant to read about the worsening financial reports, the gamers staying away in droves, and aaaall their complaints that let me know that 8th ed is still clunky, rubbish, buy-to-win, business-as-usual Warhammer. That's why it's dying. That's why GW threw up their arms in clueless exasperation and blew up the planet. That's why they're shaking that ol' rules snowglobe harder than usual. Or did you honestly think that GW were taking 30+ years to conscientiously and very gradually toil their way towards a completely balanced, elegant, and affordable wargame?
You can blame me for it if you like. Wouldn't be the first time. But that doesn't make GW more benevolent, or make 8th ed more popular or longer-lived. It drove players off and now it's gone too.
If they are shelving fantasy why do you guys think they just made new models for it... They aren't that stupid. I may take this time of panic to build up a skaven force!
dragoonmaster101 wrote: If they are shelving fantasy why do you guys think they just made new models for it... They aren't that stupid. I may take this time of panic to build up a skaven force!
Couple reasons:
1. GW thinks abut short term gains, not long term.
2. GW makes many decisions that make sense to their board, but not to any/most of us discussing it online.
3. They blew up the world already-what options are available besides starting anew?
Vermis wrote: You've got me there, PRND. But I'll let you into a wee secret: that edition you like? That eighth edition? There's a whole lot of other people who stopped playing it, and stopped buying stuff for it, for largely the same reasons. I don't have to play the game right this instant to read about the worsening financial reports, the gamers staying away in droves, and aaaall their complaints that let me know that 8th ed is still clunky, rubbish, buy-to-win, business-as-usual Warhammer. That's why it's dying. That's why GW threw up their arms in clueless exasperation and blew up the planet. That's why they're shaking that ol' rules snowglobe harder than usual. Or did you honestly think that GW were taking 30+ years to conscientiously and very gradually toil their way towards a completely balanced, elegant, and affordable wargame?
You can blame me for it if you like. Wouldn't be the first time. But that doesn't make GW more benevolent, or make 8th ed more popular or longer-lived. It drove players off and now it's gone too.
Do you remember how people reacted to sixth edition? Or seventh edition? Or eighth edition? The release of each drove players off in droves.
And one of those edition releases invalidated every army book out there. The fact that people stay away from eighth bears no correlation to the ruleset itself.
As for eighth being clunky. I remember the units of 5 chaos knights that destroyed entire armies(And I'm talking literal armies.), or that chaos army of 11 models that tabled people. Eighth is far less of a bad ruleset than any of the previous books we've had. And that is a fact.
Vermis wrote: You've got me there, PRND. But I'll let you into a wee secret: that edition you like? That eighth edition? There's a whole lot of other people who stopped playing it, and stopped buying stuff for it, for largely the same reasons. I don't have to play the game right this instant to read about the worsening financial reports, the gamers staying away in droves, and aaaall their complaints that let me know that 8th ed is still clunky, rubbish, buy-to-win, business-as-usual Warhammer. That's why it's dying. That's why GW threw up their arms in clueless exasperation and blew up the planet. That's why they're shaking that ol' rules snowglobe harder than usual. Or did you honestly think that GW were taking 30+ years to conscientiously and very gradually toil their way towards a completely balanced, elegant, and affordable wargame?
You can blame me for it if you like. Wouldn't be the first time. But that doesn't make GW more benevolent, or make 8th ed more popular or longer-lived. It drove players off and now it's gone too.
Do you remember how people reacted to sixth edition? Or seventh edition? Or eighth edition? The release of each drove players off in droves.
And one of those edition releases invalidated every army book out there. The fact that people stay away from eighth bears no correlation to the ruleset itself.
As for eighth being clunky. I remember the units of 5 chaos knights that destroyed entire armies(And I'm talking literal armies.), or that chaos army of 11 models that tabled people. Eighth is far less of a bad ruleset than any of the previous books we've had. And that is a fact.
Indeed.
And anecdotal evidence warning, but I've literally never seen as many people playing Fantasy as I have in 8th. Once everyone had adjusted, 8th seemed to draw back in a lot more players than it purportedly lost. It was next to impossible for me to find games in 6th/7th that weren't organized events, tournaments, or campaigns, but in 8th that's never been an issue, especially where I am now as WHFB and Warmahordes are the only miniatures games played at my local.
Do you remember how people reacted to sixth edition? Or seventh edition? Or eighth edition? The release of each drove players off in droves.
And one of those edition releases invalidated every army book out there. The fact that people stay away from eighth bears no correlation to the ruleset itself.
As for eighth being clunky. I remember the units of 5 chaos knights that destroyed entire armies(And I'm talking literal armies.), or that chaos army of 11 models that tabled people. Eighth is far less of a bad ruleset than any of the previous books we've had. And that is a fact.
No, they didn't. 6th edition and Ravening Hordes was extremely well received and heralded a period of unprecedented growth in Fantasy.
7th edition's reception was "meh" since the changes to the core mechanics were pretty minor, only the very last couple of books caused people to leave because they were so unbalanced (DE, VC and the final nail in the coffin, Chaos Demons).
And when the vast majority of people that left in 8th say that it was because of the rules, then you have to start thinking that it was because of the rules.
If a unit of 5 chaos knights managed to destroy an entire army it was because their opponent was extremely inept, because that was the thing that previous editions had that 8th lacks, you actually needed to use tactics to win the game and if you played poorly you lost big. In 8th all you need is to roll good dice.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
And anecdotal evidence warning, but I've literally never seen as many people playing Fantasy as I have in 8th. Once everyone had adjusted, 8th seemed to draw back in a lot more players than it purportedly lost. It was next to impossible for me to find games in 6th/7th that weren't organized events, tournaments, or campaigns, but in 8th that's never been an issue, especially where I am now as WHFB and Warmahordes are the only miniatures games played at my local.
And if that was even remotely true in a global scale instead of your very limited local environment, Fantasy wouldn't have dropped from the number 2 spot to the number 7 or 8 in the most sold miniature wargames ranking.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
Competitive WHFB has never taken place on such a large scale before 8th. While 8th absolutely needs a few changes from a competitive perspective, it still provides a very solid and good basic job. If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
Competitive WHFB has never taken place on such a large scale before 8th. While 8th absolutely needs a few changes from a competitive perspective, it still provides a very solid and good basic job. If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
Do you have any proof of any of those statements? Because I remember the days of 6th edition GTs with hundreds of participants, I remember the days of local store tournaments filled to capacity and with waiting lists. And now? All I see is big tournaments with less people than ever and local store tournaments have stopped because no one ever showed up.
And GW decided to revamp WHFB because of dwindling profits -> those profits are falling because less people are playing -> less people are playing because the rules are crap.
Addendum: Its very hard to make any type of comparison for this data, but I went and took a look at one of the most iconic events in WHFB, the ETC. It seems like the number of participants from 2013 to 2014 dropped from 256 to 200 and that the accompanying ESC that at its peak added a further 220 people, was down to just 60 in 2013 and in 2014 was dropped completely?
This is all just anecdotal, I know, but it doesn't seem to point to a growing competitive meta for Fantasy.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
Competitive WHFB has never taken place on such a large scale before 8th. While 8th absolutely needs a few changes from a competitive perspective, it still provides a very solid and good basic job. If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
Do you have any proof of any of those statements? Because I remember the days of 6th edition GTs with hundreds of participants, I remember the days of local store tournaments filled to capacity and with waiting lists. And now? All I see is big tournaments with less people than ever and local store tournaments have stopped because no one ever showed up.
And GW decided to revamp WHFB because of dwindling profits -> those profits are falling because less people are playing -> less people are playing because the rules are crap.
Less people are playing because the price point to start or expand has gotten redonkuless....8th is pretty solid as a ruleset, with minor tweeks needed in the magic section, steadfast rules, and probably cannons.
Less people are playing because the price point to start or expand has gotten redonkuless....8th is pretty solid as a ruleset, with minor tweeks needed in the magic section, steadfast rules, and probably cannons.
You guys keep saying that but that isn't what the people that have stopped playing state is the reason for leaving, those people say it was the rules.
Do you remember how people reacted to sixth edition? Or seventh edition? Or eighth edition? The release of each drove players off in droves.
And one of those edition releases invalidated every army book out there. The fact that people stay away from eighth bears no correlation to the ruleset itself.
As for eighth being clunky. I remember the units of 5 chaos knights that destroyed entire armies(And I'm talking literal armies.), or that chaos army of 11 models that tabled people. Eighth is far less of a bad ruleset than any of the previous books we've had. And that is a fact.
No, they didn't. 6th edition and Ravening Hordes was extremely well received and heralded a period of unprecedented growth in Fantasy.
7th edition's reception was "meh" since the changes to the core mechanics were pretty minor, only the very last couple of books caused people to leave because they were so unbalanced (DE, VC and the final nail in the coffin, Chaos Demons).
And when the vast majority of people that left in 8th say that it was because of the rules, then you have to start thinking that it was because of the rules.
If a unit of 5 chaos knights managed to destroy an entire army it was because their opponent was extremely inept, because that was the thing that previous editions had that 8th lacks, you actually needed to use tactics to win the game and if you played poorly you lost big. In 8th all you need is to roll good dice.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
This.
6th Edition *expanded* the player base. Whatever players left in 5th were more than made up by new players coming in. 6th made a much larger portion of one's army playable, rather than just the Heroes allotment. Armies actually had to look something like an army. It is dishonest argument to say that 6th had a next effect to drive players away.
7th rules didn't drive anyone out. 7th was a cleanup of 6th, and a pretty decent one at that. 7th basically took every FAQ issue from 6th (and there were a lot, due to the new ruleset and large number of players), and addressed all of them in the rules, fairly cleanly. The problem with 7th was the later Army Books, specifically Daemons, Undead & DE having power levels far greater than everything else in the game, coupled with a slower release schedule that allowed them to dominate for far too long.
As note above, 8th was so bad, that GW had to wipe the slate clean. That is the opposite of good. Whether this is army books or rules, is hard to say, but it's very fair to say that 8th is the worst edition. It forces old players to convert units to hordes, while raising the barrier for new players in an unreasonable way. Whereas in 5th and 6th, there were a lot fewer minis needed to have a decent army.
I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.
I mean you can make an Ogres army pretty cheaply, and all of the battalions are about the same price as 40k box sets. The only other expense really is the movement trays.
I had recently bought some models and am working on a wood-elf fantasy army. (Okay, so I bought the models when the Wood Elves were released and am just now assembling and painting them )
But it didn't feel like I was spending a hug sum of money to start it up compared to starting Orks or Space Marines.
I don't know why people keep claiming to know the reasoning behind the switch. And why people keep claiming to know what is actually going to happen with fantasy.
But what I do know is that if they decide to completely stop making fantasy and stop supporting it, that people will still play it.
Although I doubt they will drop it all together. They just released a Khorne fantasy set AFTER releasing the world explodes information.
If I were a store owner, I'd be eyeing my WHFB racks and feeling mighty uncomfortable right about now.
Looking at your post, it appears that nobody survived the end times. Not even the dwarfs. I guess it's time to say goodbye to WHFB, The Dwarfs, and maybe even GW as we once knew it. Goodbye, dwarfs. Nice knowing you... *Goes off and cries himself to sleep*
Automatically Appended Next Post: But anyway, this thread has been exalted.
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
Competitive WHFB has never taken place on such a large scale before 8th. While 8th absolutely needs a few changes from a competitive perspective, it still provides a very solid and good basic job. If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
Do you have any proof of any of those statements? Because I remember the days of 6th edition GTs with hundreds of participants, I remember the days of local store tournaments filled to capacity and with waiting lists. And now? All I see is big tournaments with less people than ever and local store tournaments have stopped because no one ever showed up.
The Wargamers USA WHFB Masters series is doing very well in 8th, from what I understand. They currently require a tournament to have at least 60 players before they can be accepted as a qualifier and even local events such as the Carnival of Chaos in New Orleans are well capable of meeting that number when they had no where near the numbers before 8th that they have now.
Just because your country and area is having issues doesn't mean they all are.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: *Makes toast to the dwarfs* *continues to be heartbroken* *begins to hope that the dwarfs come back in 9th*
Eh, I know everyone's all concerned about Bubbles or whatever, but I have a feeling it'll be a case of "same but different". All the armies will be there, most of the same names will be there, the history and each character's backstory and personality will just be slightly different and there'll be a new creation story involving Sigmar rather than the Old Ones.
But what I do know is that if they decide to completely stop making fantasy and stop supporting it, that people will still play it.
This. Actually some of the tightest/best rules sets have been developed by the community post support of the actual game. Look at Epic or BFG....even the WHFB fan fiction dexes for Cathay and the likes are pretty good. The game will live and continue, probably in a better form even if GW did kill it off.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: *Makes toast to the dwarfs*
*continues to be heartbroken*
*begins to hope that the dwarfs come back in 9th*
Eh, I know everyone's all concerned about Bubbles or whatever, but I have a feeling it'll be a case of "same but different". All the armies will be there, most of the same names will be there, the history and each character's backstory and personality will just be slightly different and there'll be a new creation story involving Sigmar rather than the Old Ones.
*Tearfully* Well, if the dwarfs come back, then I will be happy. But for now, I'm still sad.
@DarkAvenger: 6th was worse than 8th, and that's fact? Because people didn't know how to shoot a single unit of Knights? Give me a break. Sounds like you had a crappy group. So I say you're wrong. Also fact. Because a unit of 5 Knights of Chaos has always been killable. I've wasted them when a better general than me was using them. You need better "evidence". Otherwise you'll get called out. A lot. And deservedly.
Let me list what killed chaos Knights in 6th:
Cannons
Bolt throwers
Other Knights on the charge
Mass handguns
Redirecting units with a bait and switch
Casket of doom
Other Chaos Knights
Seriously, every army had something that could handle them.
Icculus wrote: I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.
It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.
WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.
I was under the impression that as the edition has aged Monstrous Cavalry and Cavalry stars were becoming more prevalent than infantry hordes. Mistaken?
KaptinBadrukk wrote: *Makes toast to the dwarfs*
*continues to be heartbroken*
*begins to hope that the dwarfs come back in 9th*
Eh, I know everyone's all concerned about Bubbles or whatever, but I have a feeling it'll be a case of "same but different". All the armies will be there, most of the same names will be there, the history and each character's backstory and personality will just be slightly different and there'll be a new creation story involving Sigmar rather than the Old Ones.
Kind of like how Crystal Pepsi was the same but different. How did that turn out?
I'm kind of conflicted about the fluff. If 9th is too similar to previous background, then it renders the whole End Times moot, a bigger, more embarrassing Storm of Chaos. But if the fluff is too different from the older stuff, then it will probably lack the charm that drew me into Warhammer, and it will certainly lack all the depth of a setting that developed through RPG supplements, Black Library novels and in-universe literature, and several editions of Army Books. It probably won't be as forgettable as Kings of War's current background, but it does risk becoming lifeless, stale, or even less original that the, uh, original.
Eldarain wrote: I was under the impression that as the edition has aged Monstrous Cavalry and Cavalry stars were becoming more prevalent than infantry hordes. Mistaken?
Perhaps. Either way, you need to buy a LOT of new minis if you want to compete.
6th Edition *expanded* the player base. Whatever players left in 5th were more than made up by new players coming in. 6th made a much larger portion of one's army playable, rather than just the Heroes allotment. Armies actually had to look something like an army. It is dishonest argument to say that 6th had a next effect to drive players away.
7th rules didn't drive anyone out. 7th was a cleanup of 6th, and a pretty decent one at that. 7th basically took every FAQ issue from 6th (and there were a lot, due to the new ruleset and large number of players), and addressed all of them in the rules, fairly cleanly. The problem with 7th was the later Army Books, specifically Daemons, Undead & DE having power levels far greater than everything else in the game, coupled with a slower release schedule that allowed them to dominate for far too long.
As note above, 8th was so bad, that GW had to wipe the slate clean. That is the opposite of good. Whether this is army books or rules, is hard to say, but it's very fair to say that 8th is the worst edition. It forces old players to convert units to hordes, while raising the barrier for new players in an unreasonable way. Whereas in 5th and 6th, there were a lot fewer minis needed to have a decent army.
If 6th and 7th were so great, then how come nobody is still playing them? If 8th is so terrible then why is it that so many people are still saying it's the best edition GW has produced thus far?
The fact that you're still moaning on about hordes shows how little you know about the current state of the game. Nobody runs hordes unless they're forced to, and the armybooks that need hordes to functions aren't the best ones by a long shot. It's true that hordes were powerful initially, but monsters, solo characters, monstrous cavalry, and cav buses have since risen to ascendance.
The game is fundamentally different from what you are representing it to be, and as a result your opinions on its comparative merits have little to no relevance to this discussion.
Eldarain wrote: I was under the impression that as the edition has aged Monstrous Cavalry and Cavalry stars were becoming more prevalent than infantry hordes. Mistaken?
I think Monstrous Cavalry becoming more prevalent has quite a bit to do with the fact that we're actually seeing more Monstrous Cavalry units to begin with, unless you're an Elf army.
I still think that the Wild Riders should have been Monstrous Cavalry though...
6th Edition *expanded* the player base. Whatever players left in 5th were more than made up by new players coming in. 6th made a much larger portion of one's army playable, rather than just the Heroes allotment. Armies actually had to look something like an army. It is dishonest argument to say that 6th had a next effect to drive players away.
7th rules didn't drive anyone out. 7th was a cleanup of 6th, and a pretty decent one at that. 7th basically took every FAQ issue from 6th (and there were a lot, due to the new ruleset and large number of players), and addressed all of them in the rules, fairly cleanly. The problem with 7th was the later Army Books, specifically Daemons, Undead & DE having power levels far greater than everything else in the game, coupled with a slower release schedule that allowed them to dominate for far too long.
As note above, 8th was so bad, that GW had to wipe the slate clean. That is the opposite of good. Whether this is army books or rules, is hard to say, but it's very fair to say that 8th is the worst edition. It forces old players to convert units to hordes, while raising the barrier for new players in an unreasonable way. Whereas in 5th and 6th, there were a lot fewer minis needed to have a decent army.
If 6th and 7th were so great, then how come nobody is still playing them? If 8th is so terrible then why is it that so many people are still saying it's the best edition GW has produced thus far?
The game is fundamentally different from what you are representing it to be, and as a result your opinions on its comparative merits have little to no relevance to this discussion.
At least 50% of the population has below-average intelligence.
My group quit playing Fantasy entirely when 8th came out, so that's pretty relevant as to which editions are good or bad.
PhantomViper wrote:
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
And if that was even remotely true in a global scale instead of your very limited local environment, Fantasy wouldn't have dropped from the number 2 spot to the number 7 or 8 in the most sold miniature wargames ranking.
PhantomViper wrote:And GW decided to revamp WHFB because of dwindling profits -> those profits are falling because less people are playing -> less people are playing because the rules are crap.
PhantomViper wrote:You guys keep saying that but that isn't what the people that have stopped playing state is the reason for leaving, those people say it was the rules.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
As note above, 8th was so bad, that GW had to wipe the slate clean. That is the opposite of good. Whether this is army books or rules, is hard to say, but it's very fair to say that 8th is the worst edition. It forces old players to convert units to hordes, while raising the barrier for new players in an unreasonable way. Whereas in 5th and 6th, there were a lot fewer minis needed to have a decent army.
This. Quoted because people don't seem to get it, or don't want to get it. GW isn't seeing a fall in sales and game playing, or blowing up the planet and background and old mini ranges, because 8th was a raging success.
Sigvatr wrote:If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
I think that's kind of amusingly ironic. But... yeah. GW is actually killing off WHFB because it's not selling. Though that's because the costs are rising too high and the rules are rubbish. Particularly those rules that prompt you to buy more of those rising-price minis.
Seriously, rules aren't the only quitting complaints: I've seen plenty deflate in defeat at the prices too. But for all that coo about 8th's balance (after the end of 7th I don't wonder), I see a lot put off by the added randomness, the cost of hordes that just plant in the middle of the table (I wonder if some people are confusing the levelling effect of more dice rolls and immovable infantry blocks as balance...), the brokenness of magic, the increasing reliance on monsters, etc.
Platuan4th wrote:
The Wargamers USA WHFB Masters series is doing very well in 8th, from what I understand. They currently require a tournament to have at least 60 players before they can be accepted as a qualifier and even local events such as the Carnival of Chaos in New Orleans are well capable of meeting that number when they had no where near the numbers before 8th that they have now.
Just because your country and area is having issues doesn't mean they all are.
Just because your country and area isn't having issues doesn't mean that GW isn't sinking 8th ed.
Also: hurrah. There are at least 60 players in the US so far. Any increase?
quickfuze wrote:
This. Actually some of the tightest/best rules sets have been developed by the community post support of the actual game. Look at Epic or BFG....even the WHFB fan fiction dexes for Cathay and the likes are pretty good. The game will live and continue, probably in a better form even if GW did kill it off.
Some will play on, but the specialist games were less susceptible to the culture of 'support' that 40K and WHFB are subject to. I.e. not just the supply of essential models for the armies but the constant addition of new and redone models - 'something to buy' (heck, when even a lot of the 'essential models' didn't appear, SG gamers knew they'd have to look elsewhere and to themselves) - and the acceptance of regularly scheduled shakeups just 'cos. Perhaps 8th ed will be pulled under the umbrella of Oldhammer, but I'm sceptical that the nostalgia factor of the later editions, constantly looking forward to new stuff, will be as great.
Eldarain wrote:I was under the impression that as the edition has aged Monstrous Cavalry and Cavalry stars were becoming more prevalent than infantry hordes. Mistaken?
So instead of big immovable hordes we've got big irresistible monsters. Hurrah.
Chute82 wrote:Let's just hope after 9 editions GW finally gets it right... Lol
Said it before - what makes you think they want to get it 'right'?
8th is the worst edition of Fantasy ever written, it is so bad that GW decided that the only way to redeem the game was by blowing everything up, and THAT is a fact.
Competitive WHFB has never taken place on such a large scale before 8th. While 8th absolutely needs a few changes from a competitive perspective, it still provides a very solid and good basic job. If you really think that GW decided to re-start (read: kill off) WHFB because of 8th's ruleset, then you don't know anything about GW or WHFB.
Do you have any proof of any of those statements? Because I remember the days of 6th edition GTs with hundreds of participants, I remember the days of local store tournaments filled to capacity and with waiting lists. And now? All I see is big tournaments with less people than ever and local store tournaments have stopped because no one ever showed up.
And GW decided to revamp WHFB because of dwindling profits -> those profits are falling because less people are playing -> less people are playing because the rules are crap.
Addendum: Its very hard to make any type of comparison for this data, but I went and took a look at one of the most iconic events in WHFB, the ETC. It seems like the number of participants from 2013 to 2014 dropped from 256 to 200 and that the accompanying ESC that at its peak added a further 220 people, was down to just 60 in 2013 and in 2014 was dropped completely?
This is all just anecdotal, I know, but it doesn't seem to point to a growing competitive meta for Fantasy.
So. The 200 player SCGT's that have been increasingly popular since 8th hit, the ever increasing number of events. Adepticon, ETC(Not warhammer, but anyway)
During 6th, in England, Europe, and Australia, you were lucky if you had a 100 player event. Nowadays you struggle to get below 60. You've got SCGT and Clash of swords, both of which sell out in less than 5 minutes. And I'm talking both players and reserves.
To those who say 8th is a bad edition, try playing anything between 5th and 7th. As someone who's played Warhammer since 4th. 5th to 7th are a bunch of flaws riddled with rules shoved in there.
6th was the era where you had small units capable of destroying armies, which led to the same few builds being all you ever saw.
7th was the era where you went to a GT and all you saw was DE, VC, or DoC. 25 dice + magic phases were not fun. As you couldn't plan against them.
6th Edition *expanded* the player base. Whatever players left in 5th were more than made up by new players coming in. 6th made a much larger portion of one's army playable, rather than just the Heroes allotment. Armies actually had to look something like an army. It is dishonest argument to say that 6th had a next effect to drive players away.
7th rules didn't drive anyone out. 7th was a cleanup of 6th, and a pretty decent one at that. 7th basically took every FAQ issue from 6th (and there were a lot, due to the new ruleset and large number of players), and addressed all of them in the rules, fairly cleanly. The problem with 7th was the later Army Books, specifically Daemons, Undead & DE having power levels far greater than everything else in the game, coupled with a slower release schedule that allowed them to dominate for far too long.
As note above, 8th was so bad, that GW had to wipe the slate clean. That is the opposite of good. Whether this is army books or rules, is hard to say, but it's very fair to say that 8th is the worst edition. It forces old players to convert units to hordes, while raising the barrier for new players in an unreasonable way. Whereas in 5th and 6th, there were a lot fewer minis needed to have a decent army.
If 6th and 7th were so great, then how come nobody is still playing them? If 8th is so terrible then why is it that so many people are still saying it's the best edition GW has produced thus far?
The game is fundamentally different from what you are representing it to be, and as a result your opinions on its comparative merits have little to no relevance to this discussion.
At least 50% of the population has below-average intelligence.
My group quit playing Fantasy entirely when 8th came out, so that's pretty relevant as to which editions are good or bad.
In other news my family hates shakespear so he was a gakky writer. Whether an edition is good or bad is solely based on personal prefference. Just because your group hates it doesn't mean it isn't good, it means you don't like it.
I think the real killers (at least in my area) to WHFB is the rising cost of the product, not attracting the younger crowd, and no support for it in local stores.
Chute82 wrote: I think the real killers (at least in my area) to WHFB is the rising cost of the product, not attracting the younger crowd, and no support for it in local stores.
Truth. Local stores would love to support it but they struggle to sell it to new players. Thus supporting what sells........40k. Its not that they dont its that they cant
I've finally gotten over the fact that dwarfs and WHFB as we once knew it are gone.
Dwarfs were obliterated.
The world went in an apocalyptically apocalyptic explosion that would have killed everyone on the planet, and, in 40K terms, probably a strength 10 AP 1 hit from debris in all directions.
I'm not about to sell off anything. My money is on a Mortal Kombat 9 style warning to the past from that dude tumbling through space via that glowing orb thingy. Watch them just say "oh yeah, btw we actually set the clock back to the age of Magnus the Pious" or something like that.
When the current edition of Fantasy came out, before buying a rulebook, I waited to see if it drew new players in my area. Nope. No real influx..but I missed playing the game.
For the past 2 years Ive waited for a new fantasy edition because I didnt want to drop the money on a rulebook that was going to be discontinued in a year or two. Now, from what Im seeing about the direction of Warhammer Fantasy: less armies, smaller armies per battle, round bases, an advancing storyline with models made only for a limited period...I think Im better off collecting this editions stuff at the fire sale! If I wanna play warmachine, I'd play warmachine. I like big battles with rank and file blocks.
Im getting the impression that "limited number/time" is the new way for GW to force people to buy/pre order models, the way they're doing with 40k (Deathstorm, Sanctus Reach). Very annoying. At this point I'm just gonna be keeping my money in my wallet till I see what happens.
I hope most of these rumors are just that. To erase all the army books, and rule books that have been made to just start over with everything just seems strange. How could GW think players would go for that? Unless they intend to start totally fresh, players included. Players don't exist anyway, we're a figment of their imagination.
More Dakka wrote: I'm not about to sell off anything. My money is on a Mortal Kombat 9 style warning to the past from that dude tumbling through space via that glowing orb thingy. Watch them just say "oh yeah, btw we actually set the clock back to the age of Magnus the Pious" or something like that.
That would make a whole lot more sense than what the rumors suggest.
Kanluwen wrote: Deathstorm and Stormclaw both were just bundles of existing models for sale, at a discounted price, with a mini-rulebook and two exclusive models.
If they start doing those boxes for Fantasy?
Fine by me.
I'd like to see them do one for dwarfs.
LONG LIVE THE DWARFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LONG LIVE GW AND WHFB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *resigns to sadness of the loss of the dwarfs*
For me the lure of Fantasy (never played the game but bought a ton of models, novels and RPGs) was the setting.
Overlaying their fantasy world on the real world and using the full range of European and world history to flesh out their creations was a master stroke on the part of GW and made the Olde Worlde much more memorable to me than the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or other game settings.
So blowing it up, and moving away from historical influences kills it for me in a way no amount of rule changes ever could.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: For me the lure of Fantasy (never played the game but bought a ton of models, novels and RPGs) was the setting.
Overlaying their fantasy world on the real world and using the full range of European and world history to flesh out their creations was a master stroke on the part of GW and made the Olde Worlde much more memorable to me than the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or other game settings.
So blowing it up, and moving away from historical influences kills it for me in a way no amount of rule changes ever could.
I loved the Empire because of the Holy Roman Empire influences. I liked how it was based somewhat on history. But I'm a historian so I'm biased.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: For me the lure of Fantasy (never played the game but bought a ton of models, novels and RPGs) was the setting.
Overlaying their fantasy world on the real world and using the full range of European and world history to flesh out their creations was a master stroke on the part of GW and made the Olde Worlde much more memorable to me than the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or other game settings.
So blowing it up, and moving away from historical influences kills it for me in a way no amount of rule changes ever could.
Precisely! I thought the world was so much more interesting than most other game settings, and I really, really enjoyed the generally 'low fantasy' setting. While there were huge monsters, and epic sorcery, the default for most people in most of the world was decidedly gritty and realistic. The average villager didn't bandy words with wizards or fight off dragons, but might have thrown a rock at a boy with webbed feet once! I scarfed up all the setting material that I could find--all of which is now purely irrelevant to the company. Just the fact that, in WFRP, you might, for example, play a ratcatcher who teams up with a ragpicker and a camp follower for adventure! Delightful, and seemingly of no interest whatsoever to the company now. The last time I remember something this drastic was when Gary Gygax was ousted from TSR, and in his last "Gord the Rogue" novel he destroyed their entire multiverse.
I just can't imagine what prompts a company to develop such a deep, abiding hatred for their own setting?
How do you develop such a loathing for your own IP that rather than modify it, or change it, or develop it, you blow it all up? It would have made more sense for me if they had simply pulled the product off the shelves, like Blood Bowl and other Specialist Games. Even though they don't make Necromunda any more, they didn't send the Inquisition to blow up the planet just because they didn't want to make the game any longer.
It also seems really, really risky in a market where people are expected to purchase, assemble, and paint models over a great period of time. Do you really want to be the company with a reputation for invalidating your entire product line in one month? I thought the whole episode with the Squats was some sort of great 'teachable moment' for GW.
I deplored the increasingly unremittingly bleak direction that Fantasy had taken (I much more enjoyed the gallows humor of the early Gotrek years), but I never imagined they would just take all of their well-developed history, background, and characters, and just toss it out with the garbage. It really makes me sad.
(It also makes me wonder what GW makes of WWI. Just because people of the time thought it was the 'first WORLD war" and the "war to end all wars", doesn't mean WWI actually embroiled every single person on the planet in war. I thought the "End Times" were called that because the inhabitants of the Old World thought they were living in the End Times, as things seemed so bleak, and not that the moniker was actually accurate.)
Chute82 wrote: I think the real killers (at least in my area) to WHFB is the rising cost of the product, not attracting the younger crowd, and no support for it in local stores.
This is kinda what killed GW in my area. At one point in time we had 4 GW stores and a bunker all within 30-40 minutes of each other. There were regular veteran and noob nights, dedicated specialist games nights and a tournament for WH & 40K every month. 8th landed right around the time they started closing all of the stores. People scattered to various games stores but once the GW blinders came off and people could see that there were other games that were cheaper to play things began to fizzle. 40k hung on for a while until 6th dropped and then that fizzled too.At the FLGS you can see the occasional game of either but the crowd isn't there like it used to be. Though last week I did see a group of 4-5 kids playing 40K 3rd ed, so who knows.
I'm sure mileage varies a little everywhere, but that is how it went down around me, it wasn't the rules more lack of support and introducing alternatives. The loss of our Bunker store was the death knell for GW games around here
Chute82 wrote: I think the real killers (at least in my area) to WHFB is the rising cost of the product, not attracting the younger crowd, and no support for it in local stores.
This is kinda what killed GW in my area. At one point in time we had 4 GW stores and a bunker all within 30-40 minutes of each other. There were regular veteran and noob nights, dedicated specialist games nights and a tournament for WH & 40K every month. 8th landed right around the time they started closing all of the stores. People scattered to various games stores but once the GW blinders came off and people could see that there were other games that were cheaper to play things began to fizzle. 40k hung on for a while until 6th dropped and then that fizzled too.At the FLGS you can see the occasional game of either but the crowd isn't there like it used to be. Though last week I did see a group of 4-5 kids playing 40K 3rd ed, so who knows.
I'm sure mileage varies a little everywhere, but that is how it went down around me, it wasn't the rules more lack of support and introducing alternatives. The loss of our Bunker store was the death knell for GW games around here
If I make the ride to pittsburgh or cleveland they have WHFB games going on all the time. But in my area it's pretty much warmachine and infinity is starting to get popular. The only game I have ever seen of WHFB at the LFGS in my area are the games against me and my buddy. Of the five stores in my area,all within 20 miles of me,that carry GW products none stock any fantasy besides one or two boxes. I tried talking to one store owner about having a WHFB slow grow league but it never went past our conversation. Of course 40k is also dying in my area one store tried to have a 40k escalation league and had 3 people sign up while another store had a warmachine journeyman league which attracted 28 new players. I know what the main problem people had with the 40k escalation league and it's the way the store runs the league, which the store owner does a horrible job. If GW wants to see WHFB to succeed they need to support the local store more, bring back the outriders program again and build a community.
I don't believe 8th edition rules killed fantasy, it was GW's bungling.
Back in 6th GW supported their stores more, they had Games Day, they ran events. Now they don't do any of that. On top of that the release of new sculpts slowed down.
You would get a months in a row of 40K releases and no Fantasy releases. People seeing all the new shininess gravitated their spending money on 40K (which was doing well anyway). In other words, 40K outsold fantasy so GW doubled down on 40K, finishing fantasy off further.
Combine all that with the doom and gloom that erupted on the online community over the change in edition and here is where we are at.
The fact is any edition since 6th had good and bad. If GW would have just tweaked any of the editions (codexes and broken rules) they would have ad a good product. Instead they replace a bad rule with a worse rule, replace good rules with bad rules and then release more unbalanced codexes.
Icculus wrote: I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.
It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.
WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.
That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.
There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.
Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?
We wrote: I don't believe 8th edition rules killed fantasy, it was GW's bungling.
Back in 6th GW supported their stores more, they had Games Day, they ran events. Now they don't do any of that. On top of that the release of new sculpts slowed down.
You would get a months in a row of 40K releases and no Fantasy releases. People seeing all the new shininess gravitated their spending money on 40K (which was doing well anyway). In other words, 40K outsold fantasy so GW doubled down on 40K, finishing fantasy off further.
Combine all that with the doom and gloom that erupted on the online community over the change in edition and here is where we are at.
The fact is any edition since 6th had good and bad. If GW would have just tweaked any of the editions (codexes and broken rules) they would have ad a good product. Instead they replace a bad rule with a worse rule, replace good rules with bad rules and then release more unbalanced codexes.
Because we used to be customers? Moreover customers who have sufficient emotional investment to still talk about WHFB long after we stopped playing?
Holy market research Batman!
Personally, my favourite edition was Warhammer Ancient Battles.
Most rational companies would be curious as to how to get you to return to spending with them again, not making sure you don't come back, ever. But hey, nobody ever accused GW of being a rational company.
Most rational companies would be curious as to how to get you to return to spending with them again, not making sure you don't come back, ever. But hey, nobody ever accused GW of being a rational company.
Because we used to be customers? Moreover customers who have sufficient emotional investment to still talk about WHFB long after we stopped playing?
Holy market research Batman!
Personally, my favourite edition was Warhammer Ancient Battles.
Most rational companies would be curious as to how to get you to return to spending with them again, not making sure you don't come back, ever. But hey, nobody ever accused GW of being a rational company.
"Curious how to get previous players to return to the game" and "alienating existing players to satisfy the complaints of players who haven't played the game in a decade, and may or may not actually follow through on playing again" are two very different things.
As far as most players are concerned, "players" being CURRENT customers of GW, the game is in the best state it's ever been in. Almost every book has been updated to the present edition. Balance between the books has never been better. There is significant variety in terms of what armies are placing strongly at tournaments, a welcome change from previous years. Though there are no concrete sales numbers, there are a significant number of tournaments worldwide that are growing more and more each year.
People who play 8th like 8th, and spend money on GW products as a result. People who don't like 8th haven't spent money in a decade, and given how little the complaints resemble the reality of the system they're bemoaning I sincerely doubt many would actually crack open their wallets whatever the changes GW might make to the new edition. More likely they'll simply alienate current players, and attract none of the retired players back.
I was an 8th ed GW customer. My main complaint at the moment is their secrecy.
I'm on a purchasing freeze because they will never confirm nor deny any rumours surrounding next edition even though it is likely finished & off to the printers.
I refuse to buy anythhing new because I don't know what the future holds but if they would come out & give me SOMETHING I'd likely make purchases again. The only things I have bought since September have been the end times books because I like the story & the rules can be fun in casual games. Since they're done I'm on a total freeze until we know more.
Wyrd & PP are both very forthcoming with what is comming down the pipes, I wish GW would at least give us something. even just a "Hey these rumours <list> are completely false.
Because we used to be customers? Moreover customers who have sufficient emotional investment to still talk about WHFB long after we stopped playing?
Holy market research Batman!
Personally, my favourite edition was Warhammer Ancient Battles.
Most rational companies would be curious as to how to get you to return to spending with them again, not making sure you don't come back, ever. But hey, nobody ever accused GW of being a rational company.
"Curious how to get previous players to return to the game" and "alienating existing players to satisfy the complaints of players who haven't played the game in a decade, and may or may not actually follow through on playing again" are two very different things.
As far as most players are concerned, "players" being CURRENT customers of GW, the game is in the best state it's ever been in. Almost every book has been updated to the present edition. Balance between the books has never been better. There is significant variety in terms of what armies are placing strongly at tournaments, a welcome change from previous years. Though there are no concrete sales numbers, there are a significant number of tournaments worldwide that are growing more and more each year.
People who play 8th like 8th, and spend money on GW products as a result. People who don't like 8th haven't spent money in a decade, and given how little the complaints resemble the reality of the system they're bemoaning I sincerely doubt many would actually crack open their wallets whatever the changes GW might make to the new edition. More likely they'll simply alienate current players, and attract none of the retired players back.
Funny how you put words in quotes that are completely different from what I wrote...Rational companies that do actual market research and care to see further than their proverbial noses actually do attempt to retain customers; customer loyalty counts for quite a bit in nearly, if not all, industries. You can scoff all you like but that is a factual reality in the business world. Happy customers are returning customers and returning customers generate consistent revenue. GW wants return custom, they are just run by a bunch of clowns that have no idea how to go about getting it; people who are so focused on squeezing the last few thousand fans out of their hard earned money that they fail to realize what earnings an expanded customer base could bring. Profitability in a publicly traded company is expected but growth is also something that long-term investors look for; if you're focused on short-term investors, you're backing a losing strategy, one that will eventually wind up costing you.....as we're seeing in the company now.
I don't know where your edition tangent came from because it had nothing to do with anything that I said. If you had actually asked me, I like 8th edition, except for the magic phase with certain spells being entirely too powerful so they went completely the opposite direction with some other things like the banner of the world dragon but GW's rules writers have always been reactionary IMOP.
I'm curious as to where exactly you pulled this statement from:
Though there are no concrete sales numbers
Because, as a publicly traded company, GW reports sales numbers on a semi-annual basis. Until January last year, I was a fairly sizable stock owner myself and as such used to be an intensely interested party when receiving and reading these numbers that you somehow think don't exist. The rest of your statements are entirely anecdotal though I suppose if I were inclined I could attempt to find these significant numbers of worldwide tournaments that you mentioned though to counter, WHFB is completely dead in my area.
Icculus wrote: I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.
It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.
WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.
That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.
There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.
Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?
My gentle suggestion for you would be to engage your brain before you post claims that someone isn't a customer. My signature clearly enumerates over 31,000 points of GW product, of which 4,500 points is Dogs of War for Warhammer Fantasy, and that ignores my BFG and other SG stuff. I've played GW games starting with Dark Future, and I played Fantasy from the start of the modern era, 6th onward. There are multiple pictures showing various GW whatnots I've built and painted. I still play 40k, etc. I am definitely a GW customer, whether you like it or not. As an actual customer with a not insubstantial investment in GW product, including WFB product, GW should give quite a few gaks what I think.
As for what's wrong with WFB, I also hazard a guess that part of what's wrong with the game might well include persons with attitudes such as yourself, shooting from the hip with unsubstantiated accusations and claims. Whether one plays, or not, they are still a customer, and that is something you should get straight in your head..
GW's master plan to go direct has made a tremendous leap forward. By blowing up the WHFB book, they have effectively ensured that intelligent FLGS owners won't purchase or order stock, so that when the new, glorious edition strikes, you'll HAVE to order it from GeeDub's AMAZING website or fully staffed Warhammer store.
Vermis wrote: Steve: The event was End Times. What Kyoto posted was the end of End Times, and that's affecting 9th ed. The strong rumours coming through are that the background is radically changed, and so are the nature of the armies and rules mechanics, to some extent. The hints include six factions of indeterminate race or allegiance, save one comprised of some kind of superhumans (ostensibly imitating 40K's space marines and hopefully their success) and reduction of the game size to 'skirmish' (likely more 40K or Warmachine 'skirmish' than Mordheim 'skirmish'). It's not known which current races will be canned, if any, how compatible they'll be with the new rules, and how scalable the rules will be; but a lot of people with large armies of threatened factions are treading on eggshells.
It's shaping up to be a considerable revamp, with smaller, more steampunk armies existing in multiple micro-universe 'bubbles'. The smaller cost of entry will be easier for new players, but it remains to be seen if enough of them will care, and if they'll make up for the alienation of a lot of existing players, who're already staying away in droves.
Game shops with a lot of current WFB stock on the shelves could find it difficult to shift, between people dropping out and people moving on to the new minis. Sure there'll be folk sticking with 8th ed or earlier, but given the general craving for 'official, current' GW products (some of those dropouts are immediately putting their big, old, slaved-over armies on ebay, as if they had some kind of 'use by' or 'not compatible with' label that suddenly expired) I'm sceptical that there'll be significant numbers.
Bloody pessimists are really starting to do my tree in.
Chill out. See what happens. We all know GW wants to make money, what company doesn't? Be realistic, all these skirmish rumours and squatting rumours are just that. RUMOURS!!!!
GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line. And even if they do those people with huge armies can just carry on as normal.
GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line.
Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.
Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?
"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"
Icculus wrote: I thought the price to get in to fantasy was about the same as 40k.
It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.
WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.
That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.
There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.
Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?
My gentle suggestion for you would be to engage your brain before you post claims that someone isn't a customer. My signature clearly enumerates over 31,000 points of GW product, of which 4,500 points is Dogs of War for Warhammer Fantasy, and that ignores my BFG and other SG stuff. I've played GW games starting with Dark Future, and I played Fantasy from the start of the modern era, 6th onward. There are multiple pictures showing various GW whatnots I've built and painted. I still play 40k, etc. I am definitely a GW customer, whether you like it or not. As an actual customer with a not insubstantial investment in GW product, including WFB product, GW should give quite a few gaks what I think.
As for what's wrong with WFB, I also hazard a guess that part of what's wrong with the game might well include persons with attitudes such as yourself, shooting from the hip with unsubstantiated accusations and claims. Whether one plays, or not, they are still a customer, and that is something you should get straight in your head..
4,500 points in 5th edition maybe. DoW haven't been a legal army in the better part of a decade. You may play 40K, but you can no longer be considered a current customer of WHFB. So why should GW care what you have to think about a product line you haven't supported in a decade, and which you show such clear misunderstanding about that you're unlikely to resume doing so even if a new edition were to come out?
Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.
As far as most players are concerned, "players" being CURRENT customers of GW, the game is in the best state it's ever been in.
If, for a single moment, I thought that this was true, then what company decides:
Our game is in the best state it has ever been. Let's completely destroy the entire setting!
I'm not claiming 8th edition is the spawn of Satan, but I don't see many companies completely gutting their IP when it is at the peak of development.
Because it's a setting, not the game. As I've been saying all thread, the setting has been stagnating at 2 minutes to midnight for 30 years. Every book released just rehashes the same fluff over and over again. It's tired and stale, and time for a refresh.
The IP that they "gutted" was essentially a bunch of substantially generic fantasy races set in a generic fantasy world, based on a real world globe and with races clearly anchored in historical parallels. So far as intellectual property is concerned that's pretty shallow. Now they filled that world with a treasure trove of stories and lore over the years, but the world that contained it all was rather weak.
This gives GW the chance to create a new world to situate their game in. So long as the game remains substantially unchanged, and the new fluff isn't horrendous, then 95% of current WHFB players won't even care. The general forums may be erupting, but the podcasts and armyspecific forums (i.e. people who actually play this game) largely think it's awesome, and are largely excited for whatever is to come. Concerned about the rumours, but generally optimistic that they're blown out of proportion and that 9th will bring more of what we've all come to love and enjoy.
Once again, what I see in this thread is a whole bunch of people who haven't played WHFB in over a decade, decrying the loss of something they don't actively participate in and no longer spend money on. So why should their opinions matter?
GW isn't so stupid as to shelve a long standing popular line.
Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.
Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?
"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"
"Can we get a refund?"
See, taking the death of the Olde World at face value is also a bit premature. Yes, that's what it says happened in one supplement series. It's something that can be very easily retconned, re-written, etc. It's just a fictional universe, anything can happen.
I actually wouldn't put it past GW to have done this as a means of fostering support for WHFB by "destroying it" then they go into 9th, bring it all back and get relieved fans back in droves. Manipulative? Yes. Effective? Maybe. Something they would do? Absolutely.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's about the same, if your concept of 40k is Boyz-heavy Orkz, Gaunt-heavy Nids, or full-Mech Guardsman-heavy Guard played at 2,000 points - literally the most expensive ways to play 40k possible, and all sub-par in effectiveness.
WFB 8E is an expensive edition, due to the shift toward Hordes.
That shift lasted for like a year, tops. The only people who still run hordes are people who chose to play horde armies, and hobbyists who like throwing giant bricks of infantry onto the table.
There is no shift to hordes. The supposed "randomness" of 8th edition is offset by the precision of premeasuring. Perhaps these things would be apparent if you actually PLAYED the game you are criticizing.
Seriously, ITT people who don't actually play WHFB talking about what's wrong with WHFB. Why should GW give half a gak what you think, if you aren't even a customer?
My gentle suggestion for you would be to engage your brain before you post claims that someone isn't a customer. My signature clearly enumerates over 31,000 points of GW product, of which 4,500 points is Dogs of War for Warhammer Fantasy, and that ignores my BFG and other SG stuff. I've played GW games starting with Dark Future, and I played Fantasy from the start of the modern era, 6th onward. There are multiple pictures showing various GW whatnots I've built and painted. I still play 40k, etc. I am definitely a GW customer, whether you like it or not. As an actual customer with a not insubstantial investment in GW product, including WFB product, GW should give quite a few gaks what I think.
As for what's wrong with WFB, I also hazard a guess that part of what's wrong with the game might well include persons with attitudes such as yourself, shooting from the hip with unsubstantiated accusations and claims. Whether one plays, or not, they are still a customer, and that is something you should get straight in your head..
4,500 points in 5th edition maybe. DoW haven't been a legal army in the better part of a decade. You may play 40K, but you can no longer be considered a current customer of WHFB. So why should GW care what you have to think about a product line you haven't supported in a decade, and which you show such clear misunderstanding about that you're unlikely to resume doing so even if a new edition were to come out?
Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.
See now, here, you're just demonstrating yourself to be totally ignorant and ill-informed with respect to Dogs of War. While the last printed Warhammer Armies : Dogs of War army book was in 5th Edition, DoW had a full army list in 6th Edition spread across a few White Dwarf articles. In 6th, DoW were fully-supported army with multiple additional releases through the Storm of Chaos campaign, having Dogs of War as an official faction that counted a such. Going into 7th in 2006, Dogs of War were still available, carrying their 6E rules over. At the end of 7th, Dogs of War were removed as an active faction. As for being a current player of WFB, that would be due to GW stopping support of my army going into 8th Edition (2010). I was still playing DoW with the last half-decade.
GW should care deeply about bringing me back, given that they were the ones who pushed me out. The idea that I would restart with hordes in 8th is ludicrous, no misunderstanding there.
If GW wants me back, they can bring everyone down to the same status as Dogs of War, and have everyone start over with a a lower model count game, with rules that do not push players into boring blocks of samey models.
And your claims of enjoyment? Yeah, let's pull your army from support, and see how much you enjoy that.
The IP that they "gutted" was essentially a bunch of substantially generic fantasy races set in a generic fantasy world, based on a real world globe and with races clearly anchored in historical parallels. So far as intellectual property is concerned that's pretty shallow. Now they filled that world with a treasure trove of stories and lore over the years, but the world that contained it all was rather weak.
I would argue that giving clear historical and geographical ties to different factions made the world stronger; it's not just 'generic good human kingdom with holy warriors', it's 'Arthurian reference kingdom that satirizes the Hollywood Dark Ages and also our version of France'. It made for a strong well of side jokes and parody in the background, which helped to distinguish Warhammer from any number of other settings and fit with their occasionally whimsical, occasionally brutal and pitch-black sense of humor. Maybe GW has decided they don't like that any more, but it hardly makes the world 'weak'.
What's next? Getting rid of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka because his name's a pretty clear joke about Margaret Thatcher? Nah, GeeDub wouldn't change the name of a long-standing part of their world on a whim like -
Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.
This is demonstrably untrue as GW is losing sales volume. The most recent 1/2 year report saw a reduction in sales of 6.6% (or 1.7% if you're easily confused by bright lights and take their excuse of constant currency at face value AND don't know how to read financial sheets for an international firm). The difference in revenue between fiscal years 2013 and 2014 (end of June 2014) was a loss of about 8.25%. So yeah, they're not healthier now and stronger now than they've ever been, unless you've only been playing a couple of years and even then losing that much money does not show that they're selling huge piles of plastic crack to waiting hordes of people.
Now, that said, we know anecdotally and through distributor data that 40k outsells WHFB by a healthy margin. So the question is, if the company is losing money and not just a little money but millions of pounds per year and they're down to two game systems; which game system is the weight dragging the drowning man to the bottom?
I like WHFB, 8th isn't terribad, and the only concern that I have with 9th is that my huge Ogre army will just collect dust on the shelf (not necessarily a bad thing since they're desert themed ) but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If they're "squatted" like rumors suggest, I'll toss them in the trash and move on, the same with my VC army.
Bloody pessimists are really starting to do my tree in.
Bloody deniers did my tree in long ago. Especially when the only pessimism in my post was the last sentence about how well 9th ed might do. Everything else was repetition of what the reliable sources with inside tracks have said. "There's no evidence!" and "8th ed was very popular!" and "Surely they'll retcon it!" are the wilder flights of fancy in comparison.
Once again, what I see in this thread is a whole bunch of people who haven't played WHFB in over a decade, decrying the loss of something they don't actively participate in and no longer spend money on. So why should their opinions matter?
If these poster's opinions don't matter, then why are your panties all twisted about what they are saying? Obviously it bothers you a great deal even thought GW doesn't care in the slightest.
Because seriously....what would it take to get you back into WHFB? Lower model count, like with the rumoured skirmish game? A setting that you like...being perhaps the one that's existed for the past 30 years, and for which a wealth of information and material remains available? Or just fundamental changes to a rule system that everybody who HAS been playing and spending for the past decade continues to enjoy.
This is demonstrably untrue as GW is losing sales volume. The most recent 1/2 year report saw a reduction in sales of 6.6% (or 1.7% if you're easily confused by bright lights and take their excuse of constant currency at face value AND don't know how to read financial sheets for an international firm). The difference in revenue between fiscal years 2013 and 2014 (end of June 2014) was a loss of about 8.25%. So yeah, they're not healthier now and stronger now than they've ever been, unless you've only been playing a couple of years and even then losing that much money does not show that they're selling huge piles of plastic crack to waiting hordes of people.
Now, that said, we know anecdotally and through distributor data that 40k outsells WHFB by a healthy margin. So the question is, if the company is losing money and not just a little money but millions of pounds per year and they're down to two game systems; which game system is the weight dragging the drowning man to the bottom?
I like WHFB, 8th isn't terribad, and the only concern that I have with 9th is that my huge Ogre army will just collect dust on the shelf (not necessarily a bad thing since they're desert themed ) but I'm willing to wait and see what happens. If they're "squatted" like rumors suggest, I'll toss them in the trash and move on, the same with my VC army.
The bigger question is: are they making changes to WHFB because it's "losing money," or because - given the incredible surge in fantasy-themed tabletop games, they're giving it extra attention because they think the fantasy segment of the wargaming market has more growth potential. You don't spend huge amounts of money on a high-end premium book series just to throw the entire system into the dust bin and start over. This is a hype machine, meant to attract attention to a system that they're about to amend to encourage new players to join in.
The issue with WHFB is that the entry cost is prohibitively high for many new players, and as a result those players are drawn to other game systems. However, over TIME, those same players likely spend the same amount of money as is required to get up to tournament-level WHFB armies, so it's really just a matter of finding a way to ease them into it. People have been saying that WHFB needs some sort of skirmish mode to ease new players in, and by all accounts that sounds like what they're bringing.
I doubt we'll see our old armies go away. All they have to do is not change the system overmuch and the majority of the vets will stick around. What I *DO* foresee them doing is giving us a new way to spend money. Something like a more robust ally system, or perhaps grouping factions together so that you can mix-and-match as you please.
For instance, it may just be that your Ogres army becomes a subfaction of Orcs and Goblins, such that all of a sudden you can add a whole bunch of black orcs, savage orcs, or goblin warmachines to your roster. There's already precedent for goblins within an Ogre army, they just have a different name for...no good reason at all.
The bigger question is: are they making changes to WHFB because it's "losing money," or because - given the incredible surge in fantasy-themed tabletop games, they're giving it extra attention because they think the fantasy segment of the wargaming market has more growth potential. You don't spend huge amounts of money on a high-end premium book series just to throw the entire system into the dust bin and start over. This is a hype machine, meant to attract attention to a system that they're about to amend to encourage new players to join in.
The issue with WHFB is that the entry cost is prohibitively high for many new players, and as a result those players are drawn to other game systems. However, over TIME, those same players likely spend the same amount of money as is required to get up to tournament-level WHFB armies, so it's really just a matter of finding a way to ease them into it. People have been saying that WHFB needs some sort of skirmish mode to ease new players in, and by all accounts that sounds like what they're bringing.
I doubt we'll see our old armies go away. All they have to do is not change the system overmuch and the majority of the vets will stick around. What I *DO* foresee them doing is giving us a new way to spend money. Something like a more robust ally system, or perhaps grouping factions together so that you can mix-and-match as you please.
For instance, it may just be that your Ogres army becomes a subfaction of Orcs and Goblins, such that all of a sudden you can add a whole bunch of black orcs, savage orcs, or goblin warmachines to your roster. There's already precedent for goblins within an Ogre army, they just have a different name for...no good reason at all.
In answer to your question, I'll pose one in return. What causation can there be for a company to radically change an existing product line? Money. GW is in business to make as large a profit as possible and is actually responsible to shareholders to do so. Responsible companies accomplish this by aggressive marketing, research, customer outreach and communication and other methods to engage the people whose wallets they hope to dip into. Historically, GW has failed on this front but has maintained their market leader status for a number of reasons that I won't go into unless you're really interested. Times have changed over the past several years and the tabletop gaming industry is experiencing large growth (15%-20%) while GW is in decline. Low-cost competitors such as Mantic are nipping at their heels. So, GW's response to these external pressures? Recession, raise prices. Competitors, say they don't exist while wasting millions suing a garage business. Loss of sales, create more adversarial relationship with independent stockists and make it more difficult for customers to find your product outside of their website/sparsely located stores.
Really, 8th edition was the least of their worries. They could have found ways to streamline processes or reduce packaging costs to pass savings onto the customer rather than just throw it all out. Also, now they're generating (intentional or not) a great deal of community ill-will with their usual non-communication with the community. Instead of hinting at what comes after they blow up the world and kill off all of the characters, hints would be fine, they're silent. This means many people stop buying. I don't know about you, but I don't rush out and buy something if I don't know it will be useful 2 months later. Many people on this board have said their buying is on hold (mine as well) until they see what happens. Here's a clue; this is not good business. A business should never encourage people to stop buying its product (unless its unsafe and being recalled); it should create an environment where people want to spend their money on the product.
Customers: Great, you blew up the WHFB world, now what?
GW: Now, we're going to roll out bloodthirster rules for 40k, an unrelated product, followed by several weeks of Ad-Mech, another unrelated product.
Customers: Uhh....so, should I just stop buying your stuff now and forget about you?
GW: No!, buy the 40k stuff.
Customers: Not really interested.... Oh wow, look at the cool stuff company X is coming out with soon. Why don't you tell me what's coming up next for fantasy...or is it over forever now that it's blown up?
GW: We don't hint at things to come, buy a white dwarf each week and you'll know the week before something is released, but we don't promise anything will be released or will tell you about anything in development.
Customers: But Forgeworld does, aren't they GW too?
GW; Look, something shiney!
Yes, hyperbole but I think you get the point. Communication is key and in the absence of communication, the lowest common denominator wins, every time.
As to rolling existing armies into other armies. I don't really see this happening without units/models going away; this leaves me with a bunch of useless plastic. Yay? Thank you? I'll wait and see what happens but if Ogres become part of Orcs and Goblins, I hope they change that army's backstory because I absolutely hate the keystone cops feel to it.
In answer to your question, I'll pose one in return. What causation can there be for a company to radically change an existing product line? Money. GW is in business to make as large a profit as possible and is actually responsible to shareholders to do so. Responsible companies accomplish this by aggressive marketing, research, customer outreach and communication and other methods to engage the people whose wallets they hope to dip into. Historically, GW has failed on this front but has maintained their market leader status for a number of reasons that I won't go into unless you're really interested. Times have changed over the past several years and the tabletop gaming industry is experiencing large growth (15%-20%) while GW is in decline. Low-cost competitors such as Mantic are nipping at their heels. So, GW's response to these external pressures? Recession, raise prices. Competitors, say they don't exist while wasting millions suing a garage business. Loss of sales, create more adversarial relationship with independent stockists and make it more difficult for customers to find your product outside of their website/sparsely located stores.
Really, 8th edition was the least of their worries. They could have found ways to streamline processes or reduce packaging costs to pass savings onto the customer rather than just throw it all out. Also, now they're generating (intentional or not) a great deal of community ill-will with their usual non-communication with the community. Instead of hinting at what comes after they blow up the world and kill off all of the characters, hints would be fine, they're silent. This means many people stop buying. I don't know about you, but I don't rush out and buy something if I don't know it will be useful 2 months later. Many people on this board have said their buying is on hold (mine as well) until they see what happens. Here's a clue; this is not good business. A business should never encourage people to stop buying its product (unless its unsafe and being recalled); it should create an environment where people want to spend their money on the product.
Customers: Great, you blew up the WHFB world, now what?
GW: Now, we're going to roll out bloodthirster rules for 40k, an unrelated product, followed by several weeks of Ad-Mech, another unrelated product.
Customers: Uhh....so, should I just stop buying your stuff now and forget about you?
GW: No!, buy the 40k stuff.
Customers: Not really interested.... Oh wow, look at the cool stuff company X is coming out with soon. Why don't you tell me what's coming up next for fantasy...or is it over forever now that it's blown up?
GW: We don't hint at things to come, buy a white dwarf each week and you'll know the week before something is released, but we don't promise anything will be released or will tell you about anything in development.
Customers: But Forgeworld does, aren't they GW too?
GW; Look, something shiney!
Yes, hyperbole but I think you get the point. Communication is key and in the absence of communication, the lowest common denominator wins, every time.
As to rolling existing armies into other armies. I don't really see this happening without units/models going away; this leaves me with a bunch of useless plastic. Yay? Thank you? I'll wait and see what happens but if Ogres become part of Orcs and Goblins, I hope they change that army's backstory because I absolutely hate the keystone cops feel to it.
What I'm essentially saying is that I doubt they'll invalidate any of the plastic ranges. The writing has been on the wall in terms of metal and finecast for some time now, which is I think what rolling armies in together will accomplish. There are only a few armies still that are heavily reliant on metal and finecast for anything other than characters and warmachines, many of those characters being now deceased.
As for the communication...yeah not going to argue with you at all there. I myself have held off purchasing while I wait to see what happens with the new edition, and am just focusing on getting stuff painted up for the remaining 8th edition events I have planned. I'm not trying to say that GW isn't mind-bogglingly bad at customer and third-party retailer relations, and that many of its business decisions are poorly-conceived at the best of times. However it's a big leap to go from there to "scorched-earth, WHFB is losing money so let's kill it off in spectacular fashion." To me it's quite obvious that the ET are a hype engine, and that whatever they're leading up to will be the result of a significant amount of effort and development resources. The massive changes to the fluff are paving the way for that.
I for one have been very disappointed with the state of fantasy, particularly 8th edition.
To answer the original post, there is a store in my hometown that is putting all fantasy products on sale at 30% off, they used to have a large fantasy following but since the end times hit their sales have dropped to zero. The store owner even asked his sales rep what was going on, and got the usual corporate "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, buy more stuff" response. Fantasy used to be my go-to game, I used to make fun of 40k players by saying that they played checkers while fantasy players played chess (this was back in 6th which was, in my opinion, the best edition of fantasy. Certainly the most popular in my area). Since then fantasy has become less and less interesting to me while 40k has really stepped up its game in terms of gameplay.
I never thought I'd see a day where I owned 5 40k armies and 1 fantasy army (Daemons, which I specifically kept because I can use them in 40k )
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: To me it's quite obvious that the ET are a hype engine, and that whatever they're leading up to will be the result of a significant amount of effort and development resources. The massive changes to the fluff are paving the way for that.
ET is actually something they did fairly well in the beginning from a story perspective (the rules suck but that's my subjective opinion so not relevant). It drew people back in, it built hype, it forwarded a storyline. Where I think they erred is that instead of leaving us all on the cusp of destruction like in 40k, the whole 10 seconds to midnight thing, they went ahead and blew it up and then didn't even leave us with a whisper of what comes next. Honestly, it'd serve the company right if people left en masse and never looked back.
I don't know what they'll do next but if it's, "Well, that didn't really happen because the god in space put it all back after the chaos gods got bored and wandered off." I'll feel cheated from a story standpoint. If it's all new story, all the established books, merchandise, software (even upcoming games) is all null and void and I'll feel cheated because then it feels like a cheap cash grab. I dunno. I guess, I'll see what they do and try to keep an open mind enough to give whatever comes out a shot as long as my models are still usable.
agnosto wrote: I don't know what they'll do next but if it's, "Well, that didn't really happen because the god in space put it all back after the chaos gods got bored and wandered off." I'll feel cheated from a story standpoint. If it's all new story, all the established books, merchandise, software (even upcoming games) is all null and void and I'll feel cheated because then it feels like a cheap cash grab. I dunno. I guess, I'll see what they do and try to keep an open mind enough to give whatever comes out a shot as long as my models are still usable.
How is it a cash grab if they start the story over again? A large portion of that fluff update will be in the BRB and the armybooks, which presumably you're buying and reading anyways. Quite honestly, I would feel like I am getting MORE bang for my back when I actually feel compelled to *read* the fluff section rather than just ignore it since there hasn't been anything new added to it in a decade. All the books you enjoyed over the years are still there, and moving the plot forward doesn't mean they're retconning that stuff out. Just means that any new books will be really interesting, and covering new parts of a world we have yet to explore. Sounds again like better value for me.
Can't argue with you on the information side though. It's killing me not knowing what's coming next. I'm cautiously optimistic of what is to come, but the uncertainty is really putting a damper on my enjoyment of the hobby.
Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
can anyone point me to that interview, sounds good for a laugh.
My FLGS hasn't put anything on clearance, but they're also a pretty major indy for GW and have been able to keep 40k product moving without any difficulty. Fantasy hasn't stagnated there, but sales are painfully slow. The resident WHFB group is pretty much just pretending that the End Times never happened, are are happily playing 8th Edition.
Really, that store's WHFB sales and attendence went into the toilet during the transition from 7th to 8th. The only people left are lifers, so short of destroying the enti-
Back in St. Louis WFB was actually gaining steam during 8th. Unfortunately, work forced me to relocate to - well, it's not the middle of nowhere, but it certainly is nowhere and I can actually see the middle from here - so I don't know what effect End Times has had on the STL community.
(The people out here are so far off the mainstream that 'wargame' or 'RPG' automatically means 'on the computer', and 'tabletop game' is something kids play like Monopoly or Sorry. Even MtG never got off the ground here. Bloody yokels!)
I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.
With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.
So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.
With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.
So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.
Utter madness.
I totally agree I was about to start a new Dwarf army when all this fell so honestly im totally holding off on warhammer until I know where it stands. So they already lost a good few months of sales there.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm with Agnosto on this one. I cannot for the life of me fathom GW's rational on Warhammer fantasy.
With the fantasy world ending, and a few months gap until 9th (in whatever form) people are saying there's no point buying anything because we don't know what 9th will be like, and we certainly don't know if our armies will still be valid.
So you have this black hole of fantasy struggling to sell for a few months, which dents GW's profits even more, and effects the viability of the company.
Utter madness.
I totally agree I was about to start a new Dwarf army when all this fell so honestly im totally holding off on warhammer until I know where it stands. So they already lost a good few months of sales there.
I'll say to you what I've said to a few others: DO NOT BUY ANY GW FANTASY PRODUCTS (apologies for the capitals ) until we know what the situation is regarding 9th.
GW will sell 8th editions products right up until the minute they bring out 9th, and then you're left standing with an army you can't even use in 9th anymore.
Unless there's a specific model you want just to HAVE it. Then get that now. I bought the $195 Nurgle box, but I really wanted the Chaos End Times models and want them even if discontinued. But if you're collecting for an army for gameplay, hold off.
Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.
Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?
"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"
"Can we get a refund?"
Well Mordheim was already blown up, and Vermintide is specifically put in the End Times.
I can't see there being any objections.
Many of us would have thought that GW wasn't so stupid as to destroy a long-standing, popular Intellectual Property either, but they just blew up the Old Worlde.
Tons of novels, a roleplaying game, Warhammer Quest mobile game, etc. I kind of wonder how the people who are releasing the Mordheim and Skaven video games feel about it?
"We just signed an agreement to develop a game based on your IP, and you just blew up everything in that IP?"
"Can we get a refund?"
Well Mordheim was already blown up, and Vermintide is specifically put in the End Times.
I can't see there being any objections.
Well there's warhammer total war, but since they did not pay gw for the license I doubt gw give a flying feth about them.
But i can certainly say that ca/sega are not overly impressed.
Actually do you think GW are spiteful enough to blow up the old world to let them sell licences for the new IP?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
So far I've only read Nagash and Glottkin, and I'm currently taking part in an effort to fan-translate Nagash to Spanish.
I can say Glottkin looked to me like a quite sub-par juvenile fantasy book. Regarding Nagash, it's painfully obvious there were several different authors involved, some of them clearly better than others.
I'd bet an ear and a knee that Ward was involved. The word "Alas" appears from time to time, specially in the most silly parts. And yup, the whole tone of the story is a bit Wardish indeed. More specifically, the usual "I think Keldur Dreigu is a pretty cool guy, eh kills deamons and doesn't afraid of anything" takes place frequently (aka overpowered, all-mighty special characters), and GW writers are still almost completely unable to narrate battles without having the main characters on each side doing everything (the nameless mooks are there just to get killed).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
So far I've only read Nagash and Glottkin, and I'm currently taking part in an effort to fan-translate Nagash to Spanish.
I can say Glottkin looked to me like a quite sub-par juvenile fantasy book. Regarding Nagash, it's painfully obvious there were several different authors involved, some of them clearly better than others.
I'd bet an ear and a knee that Ward was involved. The word "Alas" appears from time to time, specially in the most silly parts. And yup, the whole tone of the story is a bit Wardish indeed. More specifically, the usual "I think Keldur Dreigu is a pretty cool guy, eh kills deamons and doesn't afraid of anything" takes place frequently (aka overpowered, all-mighty special characters), and GW writers are still almost completely unable to narrate battles without having the main characters on each side doing everything (the nameless mooks are there just to get killed).
Khaine was wards last book. I am unsure if he was involved in Nagash or Glottkin.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
So far I've only read Nagash and Glottkin, and I'm currently taking part in an effort to fan-translate Nagash to Spanish.
I can say Glottkin looked to me like a quite sub-par juvenile fantasy book. Regarding Nagash, it's painfully obvious there were several different authors involved, some of them clearly better than others.
I'd bet an ear and a knee that Ward was involved. The word "Alas" appears from time to time, specially in the most silly parts. And yup, the whole tone of the story is a bit Wardish indeed. More specifically, the usual "I think Keldur Dreigu is a pretty cool guy, eh kills deamons and doesn't afraid of anything" takes place frequently (aka overpowered, all-mighty special characters), and GW writers are still almost completely unable to narrate battles without having the main characters on each side doing everything (the nameless mooks are there just to get killed).
Khaine was wards last book. I am unsure if he was involved in Nagash or Glottkin.
It is highly unlikely that Ward was actually heavily involved with any of them, seeing as how he left the company middle to late last year.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
So far I've only read Nagash and Glottkin, and I'm currently taking part in an effort to fan-translate Nagash to Spanish.
I can say Glottkin looked to me like a quite sub-par juvenile fantasy book. Regarding Nagash, it's painfully obvious there were several different authors involved, some of them clearly better than others.
I'd bet an ear and a knee that Ward was involved. The word "Alas" appears from time to time, specially in the most silly parts. And yup, the whole tone of the story is a bit Wardish indeed. More specifically, the usual "I think Keldur Dreigu is a pretty cool guy, eh kills deamons and doesn't afraid of anything" takes place frequently (aka overpowered, all-mighty special characters), and GW writers are still almost completely unable to narrate battles without having the main characters on each side doing everything (the nameless mooks are there just to get killed).
Khaine was wards last book. I am unsure if he was involved in Nagash or Glottkin.
It is highly unlikely that Ward was actually heavily involved with any of them, seeing as how he left the company middle to late last year.
He was heavily involved with Khaine. IIRC he WROTE khaine. Remember you need to write, then do art, then layout, then send to publisher, then ship, THEN release. This takes time so the writing was likely done 6-9 months before it was released, I believe ward confirmed he wrote khaine in an interview in which he also confirmed it was his last work with GW though I cannot find it. Plus Khaine released late last year.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Some posters have said that the End Times fluff books were well written. Is that the consensus? Having read the spoilers on 4chan, I got the impression the End Times were hastily thrown together and a bit Wardish on the fluff. However, if they are enjoyable to read for their own sake, then I'll put them on my wishlist to buy after the End Times have been Stor of Chaosed and come down significantly in price used.
That would be because they contained the wards last work for GW , also in another thread there was an interview with the writer of the last et book who said he was given a month to write it.
So far I've only read Nagash and Glottkin, and I'm currently taking part in an effort to fan-translate Nagash to Spanish.
I can say Glottkin looked to me like a quite sub-par juvenile fantasy book. Regarding Nagash, it's painfully obvious there were several different authors involved, some of them clearly better than others.
I'd bet an ear and a knee that Ward was involved. The word "Alas" appears from time to time, specially in the most silly parts. And yup, the whole tone of the story is a bit Wardish indeed. More specifically, the usual "I think Keldur Dreigu is a pretty cool guy, eh kills deamons and doesn't afraid of anything" takes place frequently (aka overpowered, all-mighty special characters), and GW writers are still almost completely unable to narrate battles without having the main characters on each side doing everything (the nameless mooks are there just to get killed).
Khaine was wards last book. I am unsure if he was involved in Nagash or Glottkin.
It is highly unlikely that Ward was actually heavily involved with any of them, seeing as how he left the company middle to late last year.
He was heavily involved with Khaine. IIRC he WROTE khaine. Remember you need to write, then do art, then layout, then send to publisher, then ship, THEN release. This takes time so the writing was likely done 6-9 months before it was released, I believe ward confirmed he wrote khaine in an interview in which he also confirmed it was his last work with GW though I cannot find it. Plus Khaine released late last year.
Well there's warhammer total war, but since they did not pay gw for the license I doubt gw give a flying feth about them.
That's the first I have heard of this, source?
GW and Sega were supposed to have negotiated the WHFB license just after Sega acquired the 40K license when THQ was auctioned off. I find it extremely hard to believe that GW will get nothing from Sega.
Well there's warhammer total war, but since they did not pay gw for the license I doubt gw give a flying feth about them.
That's the first I have heard of this, source?
GW and Sega were supposed to have negotiated the WHFB license just after Sega acquired the 40K license when THQ was auctioned off. I find it extremely hard to believe that GW will get nothing from Sega.
My understanding was the licence was picked up along with the 40k one when they purchased parts of THQ, the only negotiation was sega explaining to GW that the licence had transferred to them in the purchase and that they did not need to pay GW again for it.
I am not sure of the terms of the license but it seems likely that GW will get royalties from sales, but they were originally looking to get the upfront payment again.
What's next? Getting rid of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka because his name's a pretty clear joke about Margaret Thatcher? Nah, GeeDub wouldn't change the name of a long-standing part of their world on a whim like -
*looks at Astra Militarum Codex*
...oh...noooooooo...
"Astra Militarum" That was for copyright/trademark reasons... Imperial guard is not something GW can brand as theirs.
Ward wrote parts of Nagash, and Khaine...it was the last thing he worked on before he left. Remember, they've got stuff ready to go a few weeks before we see it, otherwise they couldn't keep up with production schedules.
So much DOOM and GLOOM in this thread.
I forsee the rulebook for fantasy dropping in may. Next month should be Admech, by all rumors and leaks..and then I would think they would drop fantasy's next rulebook...and it would also time nicely for last year's 40k rulebook drop in terms of GW stores trying to make numbers.
I'm looking forward to the new rulebook and a new box set. I foresee humans (probably the "Warriors of Light" vs either undead legions or chaos legions). Should be fun
My understanding was the licence was picked up along with the 40k one when they purchased parts of THQ,
The WHFB license wasn't held by THQ, they only had 40K.
Sega actually announced that they had acquired the license for WHFB the month before the THQ auction so it was almost certainly unconnected.
I don't know anything about the agreement but there will certainly be money involved and as such I doubt that Sega is impressed with GW blowing up the world.
What if GW has now forced the change from Warhammer:Total War to End Times: Total War
The real funny part is that all those expensive end times books are nothing more then shelf fillers when the new edition comes out. Pointed that out to some people and they were gutted. Welcome to the new age of GW invalidating your books and armies faster then you can learn them.
Bottle wrote: I'm looking forward to the new rulebook and a new box set. I foresee humans (probably the "Warriors of Light" vs either undead legions or chaos legions). Should be fun
It's "warriors of light" Vs. Chaos as reported by BOLS and they've been pretty dead on.
Yeah I would not get to comfy with 40k either. I have a reliable rumour that once the new edition of fantasy get's squeezed out, they are going to turn there attention to 40k for a similar shake up. I just don't have a reliable timescale for how long it will take for them to get it done.
Bottle wrote: I'm looking forward to the new rulebook and a new box set. I foresee humans (probably the "Warriors of Light" vs either undead legions or chaos legions). Should be fun
It's "warriors of light" Vs. Chaos as reported by BOLS and they've been pretty dead on.
Awesome. If it's going to take a focus on skirmish, I wonder if they'll start putting scenery in the box again too.
SeanDrake wrote: Yeah I would not get to comfy with 40k either. I have a reliable rumour that once the new edition of fantasy get's squeezed out, they are going to turn there attention to 40k for a similar shake up. I just don't have a reliable timescale for how long it will take for them to get it done.
Umm, I doubt they would put so much effort into all these new codexes coming out so fast and then do something to ruin it all. Plus, oh no, a planet was destroyed. That's not really scary in 40k.
Bottle wrote: I'm looking forward to the new rulebook and a new box set. I foresee humans (probably the "Warriors of Light" vs either undead legions or chaos legions). Should be fun
It's "warriors of light" Vs. Chaos as reported by BOLS and they've been pretty dead on.
lolwat?
BoLS has had some MAJOR wrongness. They were reporting that Elves were going to get a massive Avatar of Khaine kit and Dwarfs were going to get some kind of stone golem.
They've had some "dead on" rumors, but that's mostly stuff they reposted from sources that had proven themselves in the past.
SeanDrake wrote: Yeah I would not get to comfy with 40k either. I have a reliable rumour that once the new edition of fantasy get's squeezed out, they are going to turn there attention to 40k for a similar shake up. I just don't have a reliable timescale for how long it will take for them to get it done.
Umm, I doubt they would put so much effort into all these new codexes coming out so fast and then do something to ruin it all. Plus, oh no, a planet was destroyed. That's not really scary in 40k.
Kind of like how they just put the effort into all all these new books for Fantasy...
Funny, because my thought with 40k was "well they just put out all these codices so fast, they're probably going to do something to ruin it all."
I don't know, I think GW is fully capable with putting out all this unique armies only to squash them out after a 6 month run of $100 end times books just to invalidate them with the new edition.
Im just guessing here but I really doubt GW is just dropping fantasy for a few months. Its been a constant back and forth between 40k and the superior(in my humble opinion, I play both) fantasy systems. This upcoming month will be purely 40k, but the following month... Im betting on a part 6 of the endtimes, or a standalone supplement "the remaking" that will set up for a july release of 9th edition.
SeanDrake wrote: Yeah I would not get to comfy with 40k either. I have a reliable rumour that once the new edition of fantasy get's squeezed out, they are going to turn there attention to 40k for a similar shake up. I just don't have a reliable timescale for how long it will take for them to get it done.
Umm, I doubt they would put so much effort into all these new codexes coming out so fast and then do something to ruin it all. Plus, oh no, a planet was destroyed. That's not really scary in 40k.
You mean exactly like they just did with fantasy?
Also not blow up the planet but blow up the universe. Kill the emprah, no more astronomicon, no more travel or communication. New age of darkness & people living in localized "bubbles" with chaos everywhere... and we're starting to sound familiar eh?
who knows maybe they will just do a re boot and have the 9th edition rules simply be the 8th edition rules cleaned up (you can tell I haven't slept fully for a while there lol)
tbh I wouldn't put it passed GW just simply adding or taking away rules in 9th edition and saying that the world was recreated to how it was 2,000 years before the end times :-/
Kanluwen wrote: and Dwarfs were going to get some kind of stone golem.
Man I wish..made a thread about lack of golems lol
Anyway I was kind of hoping this world implosion thing was to better warhammer rather than make the game smaller or get rid of it all together (probably a pipe dream considering GW)
Like the new world would have a greater seal on magic/chaos domain over the world because its so new. Like magic is much harder to come by so rarer and more powerful than been just about everywhere. Maybe skip to story forward a few thousand years and make the end times a very old fairytale to the modern peoples of the new world like some lord of the rings war of wrath thing. Change all the dynamics/ lore of the races.
As said have magical things like dragons be super rare or even the last of their kind in some places and have certain things from warhammer now nothing but old tales that might be re-discovered. Go like hardcore fantasy world not so much World of warcraft ridiculous looking models and heroes.
GentlemanGuy wrote: who knows maybe they will just do a re boot and have the 9th edition rules simply be the 8th edition rules cleaned up (you can tell I haven't slept fully for a while there lol)
tbh I wouldn't put it passed GW just simply adding or taking away rules in 9th edition and saying that the world was recreated to how it was 2,000 years before the end times :-/
I'd be more or less OK with this. Honestly a fresh reboot of some lore could do well to get rid of some tropes and some special characters who honestly I'd rather see die & NOT rise 3 days later, I'm looking at you Jesus... Uhhh I mean Tyrion.
Kanluwen wrote: and Dwarfs were going to get some kind of stone golem.
Man I wish..made a thread about lack of golems lol
Anyway I was kind of hoping this world implosion thing was to better warhammer rather than make the game smaller or get rid of it all together (probably a pipe dream considering GW)
Like the new world would have a greater seal on magic/chaos domain over the world because its so new. Like magic is much harder to come by so rarer and more powerful than been just about everywhere. Maybe skip to story forward a few thousand years and make the end times a very old fairytale to the modern peoples of the new world like some lord of the rings war of wrath thing. Change all the dynamics/ lore of the races.
As said have magical things like dragons be super rare or even the last of their kind in some places and have certain things from warhammer now nothing but old tales that might be re-discovered. Go like hardcore fantasy world not so much World of warcraft ridiculous looking models and heroes.
IDK really just spit balling
So, you want stone golems and a world with almost no magic at the same time?
Or maybe you secretly just want to play historicals.
No, no, if you think about it, the idea makes sense. You've got a human-centric world where magic is there, but mistrusted and feared because it can very easily lead to terrible things. You have an apocalyptic legend about Chaos almost overwhelming the world, only to be held back by mighty heroes and great sacrifice. It's more grounded in reality - maybe some oblique references to real-world cultures and kingdoms in the factions, but you've also got some magical weirdness with the other races. Dragons and such are hard to find, but terrifyingly powerful to face, and people aren't throwing around magic weapons like they're candy. Heck, maybe one or two of the crazier factions could be seen as semi-mythical in-universe, to help emphasize the low fantasy of the setting?
I quite like it, actually, I'd pick that up in a heartbeat -
Spinner wrote: No, no, if you think about it, the idea makes sense. You've got a human-centric world where magic is there, but mistrusted and feared because it can very easily lead to terrible things. You have an apocalyptic legend about Chaos almost overwhelming the world, only to be held back by mighty heroes and great sacrifice. It's more grounded in reality - maybe some oblique references to real-world cultures and kingdoms in the factions, but you've also got some magical weirdness with the other races. Dragons and such are hard to find, but terrifyingly powerful to face, and people aren't throwing around magic weapons like they're candy. Heck, maybe one or two of the crazier factions could be seen as semi-mythical in-universe, to help emphasize the low fantasy of the setting?
I quite like it, actually, I'd pick that up in a heartbeat -
Oh, wait.
By George, I think you're onto something there. Definitely enough of an idea for somebody to write a compelling story, continue into a series and drag it out for years.
Spinner wrote: No, no, if you think about it, the idea makes sense. You've got a human-centric world where magic is there, but mistrusted and feared because it can very easily lead to terrible things. You have an apocalyptic legend about Chaos almost overwhelming the world, only to be held back by mighty heroes and great sacrifice. It's more grounded in reality - maybe some oblique references to real-world cultures and kingdoms in the factions, but you've also got some magical weirdness with the other races. Dragons and such are hard to find, but terrifyingly powerful to face, and people aren't throwing around magic weapons like they're candy. Heck, maybe one or two of the crazier factions could be seen as semi-mythical in-universe, to help emphasize the low fantasy of the setting?
I quite like it, actually, I'd pick that up in a heartbeat -
Oh, wait.
Not sure if serious, because that's 40k to a T, from the Imperial POV.
It's also WHFB circa 6th-7th edition, which was the joke.
...doesn't seem to be the only thing I inadvertently described, though. Thankfully, Mr. Martin's likely to, if not give his characters dignified ends, at least keep them in tone with the setting. Hmmm...a Song of Ice and Fire miniatures game...
...doesn't seem to be the only thing I inadvertently described, though. Thankfully, Mr. Martin's likely to, if not give his characters dignified ends, at least keep them in tone with the setting. Hmmm...a Song of Ice and Fire miniatures game...
People already play A Song of Ice and Fire miniatures games. Only they take a leaf out of Bob's book and use historical minis and rules, rather than wait around for someone to bring out a range with an 'OFFICIAL' sticker and a crippling price tag slapped on it.
(No stone golems. A few ice zombies and squashscatches, though.)
You know, I have been complaining about the state of Fantasy's rules for years, the stagnation of it's lore, fluff and armies (besides the big shiny new monster kits), there hasn't really been much to convince me to play again. Crap, I knew if I wanted to play Fantasy I could just go get some graph paper, trace out some unit blocks and get the same effect, minus the pride of ownership by putting a fully painted army on the table. Complained about pre-measuring and how it reduced the skill and finesse required to be really bring it to the old salts who could guess the distance with their guess range weapons down to half an inch, could guess if they could make a charge or if they would have enough to maneuver around terrain or how much movement their opponent has and how to effectively bait and trap them.
It was a daunting task at 12 years old, but it made my first win feel so special. I do agree that the cost to get into Fantasy is a bit ubsurd, and unlike 40k where a few boxes of Space Marines and a Rhino is enough to get you on the table and start slaying the enemies of the Imperium, in Fantasy having two core units, a hero and a warmachine just doesnt make for a very interesting game.
I am trying my hardest to keep positive over the new edition of Fantasy, because it really is in need of a refresher. At this point I am excited to see what happens with the game because I would like toand able to play it with people besides just my immediate group. Being able to walk into a store and just ask who plays 40k or Warmachine almost always find a game is what keeps me active in it. Heck, it is easier to find people to play Blood Bowl than Fantasy right now. At this point i see it as Fantasy can't be worse off than it is right now, Yea 8th edition rules arent the best, and if I could find somebody to reliably play the game with me I will use them. But in the areas I have lived in the last five years (New Hampshire, Georgia, North Carolina and now Colorado), I have only seen one game of Fantasy being played in any of the stores I have gone into, and most of them have stopped carrying Fantasy because there isn't an influx of new players or interest in it
Well, enough of my ramblings, I am just going to keep silent on nay saying the new edition until after I get my first peek at the new book. Even though some news or information from GW would be nice, over the last 13 years I have learned it isn't going to happen.
Spinner wrote: It's also WHFB circa 6th-7th edition, which was the joke.
...doesn't seem to be the only thing I inadvertently described, though.
Thankfully, Mr. Martin's likely to, if not give his characters dignified ends, at least keep them in tone with the setting. Hmmm...a Song of Ice and Fire miniatures game...
Sure, just that I wanted it to be not-Fantasy. WFB6-7 is good stuff, though. Pity GW's moved away from that. I may well go back to WFB6-7 using the Ravening Hordes lists.
FFG sells (sold?) Battles of Westeros, which is supposed to be GoT wargaming.
7th had its issues. 8th fixed some of them but brought in issues of its own. I'm not here to argue one is better than the other, just that every edition has problems & there is no objective "best".
If you don't think 7th had issues just remember. My vampire kills your front rank, I outnumber you & cause fear, you now auto-break.
Sigvatr wrote: ...I meant..worst...sleep deprivation..kicking in :(
OK, I am pretty sure you don't know what real Herohammer was. Go play a fluff list against a full-on 5E Herohammer list, and you'll see just how far 6E reined things in.
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Shas'O Dorian wrote: 7th had its issues. 8th fixed some of them but brought in issues of its own. I'm not here to argue one is better than the other, just that every edition has problems & there is no objective "best".
If you don't think 7th had issues just remember. My vampire kills your front rank, I outnumber you & cause fear, you now auto-break.
I think a blend of 7th and 8th could work nicely.
7th was fine rules-wise, but was a problem list-wise. If you roll the Undead back to their 6E Ravening Hordes list under 7E rules, it's not a problem.
I agree with JohnHwangDD, the 6th and 7th editions were my favourites to play. Army size was about right for me, there were lots of interesting archetypes to play around with, and it was a fairly affordable time to play Fantasy. I remember playing some really awesome and memorable low point games and mini campaigns back then as well as participating in some really fun tournaments. It's a GW game so there were always lists and things that were out of order, and 7th went completely mental towards the end with Vampires, Daemons and Dark Elves just being horribly balanced compared to other lists, but I had lots of enjoyable games there.
I started playing in 5th, and while it always has that nostalgic charm for me, it was a horribly unbalanced game with absurd herohammer elements. Still fun but strictly "between friends" because of all the ways it could be broken.
8th wasn't the worst thing ever, but the time for set up increased due to the army size increases and then you ended up removing those units pretty quickly due to mega-spells that you couldn't dispel. It sorta killed my enthusiasm for the game because it made it seem like a pointless chore.
8E Magic is the worst, because the spell effects are so lacking internal balance. You get a good Purple Sun to go off, and that's game. Or, you get kinda useless junk, and wonder why you bothered dumping so many points into Magic.
JohnHwangDD wrote:8E Magic is the worst, because the spell effects are so lacking internal balance. You get a good Purple Sun to go off, and that's game. Or, you get kinda useless junk, and wonder why you bothered dumping so many points into Magic.
Da Boss wrote:8th wasn't the worst thing ever, but the time for set up increased due to the army size increases and then you ended up removing those units pretty quickly due to mega-spells that you couldn't dispel. It sorta killed my enthusiasm for the game because it made it seem like a pointless chore.
Once again, it is very clear that neither of you has played enough games of 8th edition to know what you're talking about.
Can you win a game with a well-placed Purple Sun? Absolutely....once. Once is how many times any general of a low-I army will give you a nice clean line to throw a sun down.
Not to mention that the worst abuses come from people misinterpreting the rule. As clarified in the FAQ, a magical vortex only affects those units it actually has enough movement to touch. Yes it will countinue to "bounce" through units until it finds somewhere to be placed more than 1" away from a unit or impassable terrain, but throughout that entire process no further models will be affected.
Thus in order to throw a sun down someone's entire line then, unless your opponent is an idiot, you must:
1) pay points for a flying or highly mobile caster
2) push that caster up to where a Sun can be thrown down your opponent's battle line, which is very likely in harm's way.
3) throw 6-dice at the spell, and either eat a miscast or pray your opponent has already used his dispel scroll
4) roll high enough for the vortex to cover more than one unit (misfire, 2, and 4 often aren't enough to justify the price tag)
5) pray that your opponent rolls high on those I tests.
Unless all of the above goes off without a hitch, all you've accomplished is putting your expensive wizard into harm's way and wasted an entire magic phase. There is a reason this is called a "tier zero" strategy. 6-dicing big spells was all the rage for about 8 months on the competitive scene, but now outside of brand new players most people have learned to do better things with their magic phases.
As for pre-measuring, that's pretty indicative of this entire discussion as a whole. Nerds hate change. It's basically one of the immutable laws of the universe. Removing guess ranges and adding pre-measuring wasn't an objective downgrade in the level of skill in the game...it was just a change. You removed the skill (or "skill") of precision distance guessing and exchanged it for the math-based approach of risk management and information.
As a player, pre-measuring gives you far more information to make decisions on. You know exactly how far you need to stay away to be out of range of a spell or shooting attack, before and after your opponent moves. You know exactly how far you need to roll for charge distances, and can calculate how much risk of a failed charge you are taking before you declare. You know whether spells are in range before you throw the dice.
If you liked the skill of needing to be a bloody carpenter to play WHFB at a high level, then of course you weren't going to like 8th edition. However for those playing 8th now, the additional information that measuring all relevant distances gives you adds an enormous layer of new decision making that really increases the strategic depth of the game.
Purple Sun simply needs to hit a couple "good" units to break a battleline or negate a potential charge.
Oh exactly. I was playing undead Vs lizards and my opponent ran his templeguard into my unit of ghouls with my shadow vampire. In my movement phase I marched my death vampire out of the grave guard towards my shadow vampire.
I used smoke & mirrors to swap my death & shadow vampires & 6 diced large purple sun into his 40 TG with slann, angled it so it could hit tetto'ekko as well. It didn't reach tetto but it did kill 30 of his templeguard afterwhich my vampire RF/QB'd the templeguard & the ghouls ate the slann.
That was over 1/3 of his army gone in one cast. He positioned well & use some terradons & skinks to keep my death vampire away from his templeguard but march 12" plus 18" smoke & mirrors makes it difficult to avoid. Sure he could have dispelled the shadow spell but he was saving his dice to hopefully stop the big purple sun he knew was coming.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Once again, somebody thinks he knows more than he actually does.
Purple Sun simply needs to hit a couple "good" units to break a battleline or negate a potential charge.
And the power level of the spell is way off, increasing the importance of randomness in dicing for spells, versus strategy in play.
8E is more random, and therefore, less skill-oriented than 6E/7E.
...which it can only really do at point-blank range, and only against armies with low initiative targets.
Is the spell good for the game? No. Does it suck when your opponent rolls a 10 for an IF purple sun and cripples you before the game has barely started? Of course.
...however 9 times out of 10 that's not how it goes down. The variance on the spell's damage potential is enormous, and it has a strong potential to backfire. In order to cast the spell you need to bet the farm on it, and if it fails you are often in worse position than you started.
It's an incredibly powerful spell situationally, but more often than not your opponent will not let you get it off when it is capable of doing any appreciable amounts of damage. I say this as a player who has both played death and played one of the more vulnerable armies *to* death (Vampires), and I can quite honestly say it's not all its cracked up to be. You can ask the same of any tournament-level Ogres player, and they too will tell you that they've learned how to deal with it and aren't that concerned anymore. I have seen people purplesun their own demon prince off the board as often as I have had it lose me a game.
Note of course that I *DO* think the spell is bad for the game. People who run it tend to whine when it doesn't go off and kill half the opponent's army (which it usually will not), or gloat that they won a game on the back of a spell the odd time it does something glorious - a gakky way to lose for the opponent.
However with almost identical probability there are all manner of other things that can go poorly for the game, and all kinds of other spells / strategies that are AS effective but more subtley so, and therefore get none of the hate that the "big 6 spells" get. Harmonic Convergence, for instance, is one of the most amazing spells in the game...depending on your build. However often times opponents will LET IT GO because they don't understand just how significant it can be for three charging knight lances rerolling 1s to hit, wound, and on their 2+ armour save rolls.
Purple Sun simply needs to hit a couple "good" units to break a battleline or negate a potential charge.
Oh exactly. I was playing undead Vs lizards and my opponent ran his templeguard into my unit of ghouls with my shadow vampire. In my movement phase I marched my death vampire out of the grave guard towards my shadow vampire.
I used smoke & mirrors to swap my death & shadow vampires & 6 diced large purple sun into his 40 TG with slann, angled it so it could hit tetto'ekko as well. It didn't reach tetto but it did kill 30 of his templeguard afterwhich my vampire RF/QB'd the templeguard & the ghouls ate the slann.
That was over 1/3 of his army gone in one cast. He positioned well & use some terradons & skinks to keep my death vampire away from his templeguard but march 12" plus 18" smoke & mirrors makes it difficult to avoid. Sure he could have dispelled the shadow spell but he was saving his dice to hopefully stop the big purple sun he knew was coming.
You're talking about quite literally the best-case scenario for purple sun right there. Point-black to the face, against an I2 deathstar unit. That's like 6-dicing Dwellers against a 1,300 point BotWD dragon prince deathstar. Rock: meet scissors. Scissors: rock.
Every unit in warhammer has inherent weaknesses that can be countered. Sometimes those counters are a certain kids of units (fliers against gunlines, BS shooting against lightly armoured elves), other times it is certain spells. Spells are powerful because you can't counter them as easily with unit positioning and deployment as you can against an enemy unit. However you CAN build defenses into your list design.
Your opponent built a kajillion-point Templeguard deathstar, then was upset when it came up against something that was weak against it. Welcome to Warhammer. Hopefully he learned from this and stopped running such a foolishly large brick of TG. What was that, like a 1,200 point unit? There's a reason that his isn't the dominant build for LM.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Once again, somebody thinks he knows more than he actually does.
Purple Sun simply needs to hit a couple "good" units to break a battleline or negate a potential charge.
And the power level of the spell is way off, increasing the importance of randomness in dicing for spells, versus strategy in play.
8E is more random, and therefore, less skill-oriented than 6E/7E.
...which it can only really do at point-blank range, and only against armies with low initiative targets.
Is the spell good for the game? No. Does it suck when your opponent rolls a 10 for an IF purple sun and cripples you before the game has barely started? Of course.
...however 9 times out of 10 that's not how it goes down. The variance on the spell's damage potential is enormous, and it has a strong potential to backfire. In order to cast the spell you need to bet the farm on it, and if it fails you are often in worse position than you started.
It's an incredibly powerful spell situationally, but more often than not your opponent will not let you get it off when it is capable of doing any appreciable amounts of damage. I say this as a player who has both played death and played one of the more vulnerable armies *to* death (Vampires), and I can quite honestly say it's not all its cracked up to be. You can ask the same of any tournament-level Ogres player, and they too will tell you that they've learned how to deal with it and aren't that concerned anymore. I have seen people purplesun their own demon prince off the board as often as I have had it lose me a game.
Note of course that I *DO* think the spell is bad for the game. People who run it tend to whine when it doesn't go off and kill half the opponent's army (which it usually will not), or gloat that they won a game on the back of a spell the odd time it does something glorious - a gakky way to lose for the opponent.
However with almost identical probability there are all manner of other things that can go poorly for the game, and all kinds of other spells / strategies that are AS effective but more subtley so, and therefore get none of the hate that the "big 6 spells" get. Harmonic Convergence, for instance, is one of the most amazing spells in the game...depending on your build. However often times opponents will LET IT GO because they don't understand just how significant it can be for three charging knight lances rerolling 1s to hit, wound, and on their 2+ armour save rolls.
Purple Sun simply needs to hit a couple "good" units to break a battleline or negate a potential charge.
Oh exactly. I was playing undead Vs lizards and my opponent ran his templeguard into my unit of ghouls with my shadow vampire. In my movement phase I marched my death vampire out of the grave guard towards my shadow vampire.
I used smoke & mirrors to swap my death & shadow vampires & 6 diced large purple sun into his 40 TG with slann, angled it so it could hit tetto'ekko as well. It didn't reach tetto but it did kill 30 of his templeguard afterwhich my vampire RF/QB'd the templeguard & the ghouls ate the slann.
That was over 1/3 of his army gone in one cast. He positioned well & use some terradons & skinks to keep my death vampire away from his templeguard but march 12" plus 18" smoke & mirrors makes it difficult to avoid. Sure he could have dispelled the shadow spell but he was saving his dice to hopefully stop the big purple sun he knew was coming.
You're talking about quite literally the best-case scenario for purple sun right there. Point-black to the face, against an I2 deathstar unit. That's like 6-dicing Dwellers against a 1,300 point BotWD dragon prince deathstar. Rock: meet scissors. Scissors: rock.
Every unit in warhammer has inherent weaknesses that can be countered. Sometimes those counters are a certain kids of units (fliers against gunlines, BS shooting against lightly armoured elves), other times it is certain spells. Spells are powerful because you can't counter them as easily with unit positioning and deployment as you can against an enemy unit. However you CAN build defenses into your list design.
Your opponent built a kajillion-point Templeguard deathstar, then was upset when it came up against something that was weak against it. Welcome to Warhammer. Hopefully he learned from this and stopped running such a foolishly large brick of TG. What was that, like a 1,200 point unit? There's a reason that his isn't the dominant build for LM.
Almost his entire army is I2. it doesn't matter what I throw purple sun at either his dice roll beats mine, or he loses a huge chunk of any unit. It's not rock paper scissors units & tactics it's his whole army is paper & as long as I have access to shadow or death magic I become a rock. I could have done the same with pit of shades had he not been in combat. His options are run skink cloud or hope your opponent doesnt roll on shadow/death.
There's a reason most tournament lizardmen armies run skink clouds & very little saurus & that is bad design. Each option should be equally viable but because of pit/sun saurus are just not a good choice no matter what.
yes, you're right. Death is rock to Lizzies scissors. BotWD Elves is scissors to Demons of Chaos' paper. If you think WFB is anything else, you need to check over the rules again.
Vulcan wrote: yes, you're right. Death is rock to Lizzies scissors. BotWD Elves is scissors to Demons of Chaos' paper. If you think WFB is anything else, you need to check over the rules again.
I will admit I haven't played all that much 8th, but part of the thing I used to like about WHFB prior to 8th over 40k is that it didn't feel like an incredibly expensive and time consuming rock-paper-scissors. You could certainly create a bad army that would lose a lot, but for the most part it didn't feel like a game of hard counters like it does now.
Vulcan wrote: yes, you're right. Death is rock to Lizzies scissors. BotWD Elves is scissors to Demons of Chaos' paper. If you think WFB is anything else, you need to check over the rules again.
And that is a problem i have with 8th. From what i remember 7th wasnt as bad.
We can focus on Purple Sun as one small problem with the rules set or we can look at it's role as a symptom of the larger problems with the system.
Fantasy is in this weird place of being a mass battle game with very "individual model" focused rules. This means fiddling with individual models is unfortunately a part of the game. It's time consuming and makes the game feel like a chore - to me. I was more okay with it in 6th and 7th because armies were generally a bit smaller.
Added to this is the increase in influence of the random elements of the game. Like you say, Purple Sun is completely situational. This means the outcome of the entire battle becomes much more random. For those of us who are light on free time and want a satisfying game, losing even one game in 5 to random magic is a bit of a deal breaker.
That said, I am not saying 8th edition is awful in it's entirety. It did some good stuff, like making infantry blocks more reliable (I would argue it went a bit too far on that) making combat dwarves a little better, and the internal balance between armies and army books was much, much better than in the end phase of 7th (where the game shat itself).
I was frustrated by eighth because I bought in big for it with the hardcovers and other bits and pieces and it didn't provide the enjoyment I needed to justify my expenditure. When GW are competing with other companies that provide free rules and army lists, it's a bit hard to justify spending so much on their (usually entirely reprinted) rule books.
So I dunno. We'll wait and see. Maybe 9th will be decent, though I am not hopeful. In any case, I have Kings of War and it looks likely to get more popular with time, not less.
Almost his entire army is I2. it doesn't matter what I throw purple sun at either his dice roll beats mine, or he loses a huge chunk of any unit. It's not rock paper scissors units & tactics it's his whole army is paper & as long as I have access to shadow or death magic I become a rock. I could have done the same with pit of shades had he not been in combat. His options are run skink cloud or hope your opponent doesnt roll on shadow/death.
There's a reason most tournament lizardmen armies run skink clouds & very little saurus & that is bad design. Each option should be equally viable but because of pit/sun saurus are just not a good choice no matter what.
Theres a lot more holding Saurus back than pit and sun. Skinks are the more viable option because saurus are trash. They need magic buffs to compete, and any strategy reliant on magic is not a good one. Skinks are more mobile, can dictate the movement phase, and their shooting is an answer to a lot of things LM might otherwise struggle with. Combat prowess is not to be found in core with that army. Was like that in 7th, and the 8th book didnt change all that much.
Theres a lot more holding Saurus back than pit and sun. Skinks are the more viable option because saurus are trash. They need magic buffs to compete, and any strategy reliant on magic is not a good one. Skinks are more mobile, can dictate the movement phase, and their shooting is an answer to a lot of things LM might otherwise struggle with. Combat prowess is not to be found in core with that army. Was like that in 7th, and the 8th book didnt change all that much.
Waitaminnit, wasn't the gist of your argument that things were balanced and that tabletop tactics made up for stuff?
Waitaminnit, wasn't the gist of your argument that things were balanced and that tabletop tactics made up for stuff?
"Balance" doesn't mean that all list options are created equal. List-building is still an important part of WHFB (just like it is in all tabletop games), and skinks are the more powerful option for a variety of reasons. My point was merely that the "super spells" aren't guaranteed I-WIN buttons like many people seem to think it is. It's just one of many strategies that a person can employ against you, and one that isn't particularly more reliable nor powerful than many others.
JohnHwangDD wrote:I think our resident 8E fanboy meant to say that 8E is perfect, except for the stupid spells and Dorfs and Lizardmen.
Who said 8th is perfect? It's got it's host of issues, and I'm hoping that the new edition fixes them. However it's a substantially better edition than previous ones were, and the sorts of issues I consistently hear non-players complaining about (i.e. steadfast hordes, model bloat, and 6-spells) don't really have much to do with those.
I would rather see attack allocation fixed, to prevent the silly character-wall shenanigans that have been dominating the meta for the past year and a half. I'm expecting that they'll move to unit-on-unit combat, and abstract the characters out of the unit. Ridden monsters also need a boost (hopefully getting the monstrous cav treatment). Fear could use a bit of a boost, as it's rather useless right now. Steadfast is a little too blunt of an instrument (could be modified somehow, say by flank/rear bonuses modifying steadfast/stubborn leadership).
The bigger issues though is objective and scenario play. It's something that TOs have been dealing with by homebrewing interesting scenario objectives, but that's something taht the BRB could really have some assistance with. The random scenarios of 40K aren't really going to work well for fantasy, but I would like to see something in that vein. You get really bored of the same 6 scenarios being played over and over again, and written campaigns rely a little too heavily on odd combinations of units.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nah, players were whiny before, but they were still playing...
Fair play, but gamers aren't exactly well-known for taking major changes in stride.
I don't know why this should be considered being whiny or even why it should be considered a bad thing. When you start playing a game it's typically because, ya know, you like that game. When changes come around it should be standard that they are greeted with scepticism. A lot of the reasons I personally stopped playing with 8th is because a lot of the changes have quite simply turned it in to a game that I don't want to play where as previous editions were a game I wanted to play (even though they might not have been perfect).
At the end of the day the most damning thing to me is I rarely hear of how a WHFB community has blossomed under 8th. Not saying some people don't like it or the rules system is junk, but I mostly hear stories of "our WHFB community was struggling under 7th and 8th made things worse".
In terms of popularity, 6th edition was the golden age without a doubt, at least until certain books (i.e. Skaven) broke the balance that had been somewhat achieved (to a degree) by the ravening hordes lists.
The terrible, terrible ending of the Storm of Chaos campaign plus some of the changes introduced in 7th ("now you idiots need 5 models to form a full rank, lol") made it clear which ones were GW's top priorities. 8th edition was (is) so so bad it basically killed Fantasy in most places. Yeah yeah, we all have already read how Fantasy has thrived in your independent store or your GW store under 8th edition, but facts are facts: the game slowly withered away after 8th was released in most places. Every new edition is always guaranteed to infuriate a segment of the player base, some will rage quit and others will (begrudgingly) keep playing, while the new blood will eventually make up for the "desertions". But 8th managed to kill two birds with one single stone, as it just infuriated too much people and the constant price hikes and the "you need moar models, moar, moar" made the entry cost simply too high so no new blood to fill in for the unavoidable losses each new edition will bring.
I'd also like to add that a significant portion of the remaining WHFB "official" players (that is, the ones playing 8th and not "oldhammering"), at this stage, seem to fit the stereotypical "die-hard fanboy" profile: fanatical loyalty to GW, heavy distaste (when not outright hatred) towards everything "non GW" (specially non GW models that make decent alternatives to some GW models) and aggresive attitudes towards anyone daring to criticise GW. In short, "GW gamers". Which then came out as a bunch of elitist douchebags ("I paid this much for my armies and won't play against some cheap knock-offs"), which contributes even more to drive potential newcomers away from Fantasy.
That last paragraph is just a personal feeling based on some things I've seen here and there, mostly on the internet. I don't know if others may feel the same.
In any case, The (hilariously badly written and edited) End Times look like the final nail in the coffin to me.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nah, players were whiny before, but they were still playing...
Fair play, but gamers aren't exactly well-known for taking major changes in stride.
I don't know why this should be considered being whiny or even why it should be considered a bad thing. When you start playing a game it's typically because, ya know, you like that game. When changes come around it should be standard that they are greeted with scepticism. A lot of the reasons I personally stopped playing with 8th is because a lot of the changes have quite simply turned it in to a game that I don't want to play where as previous editions were a game I wanted to play (even though they might not have been perfect).
At the end of the day the most damning thing to me is I rarely hear of how a WHFB community has blossomed under 8th. Not saying some people don't like it or the rules system is junk, but I mostly hear stories of "our WHFB community was struggling under 7th and 8th made things worse".
My experience with wargaming has always been that a small number of exiting players can have a staggering effect on the community. Often times you have one or two "key" players who are leaders and organizers, and without whom the community built around them would essentially die. If those players decide to switch to a different game the entire community will switch with them.
That is, until the community gets to a certain size where it can survive such a shift. However I feel like many WHFB communities weren't so lucky. Change drove off a couple of those key players early on and the communities never really recovered. Says nothing about the game on any sort of objective basis, only that a few players didn't like that and as a result the ones who did ended up without a community anymore.
THAT SAID, there are a great number of communities that DID survive the switch, or that have since been revitalized by the entrance of new "key players" making concerted efforts to drum up support for the hobby. I've said it before on this thread, but the US Masters circuit has been doing a lot locally to draw people out. We are seeing a large number of players come out of the woodwork here in the Pacific Northwest, who previously went to 1 or 2 tournaments a year locally and are now driving several hours in order to attend double or triple the number of tournaments before. Whereas before nearly all of the tournaments were held in Vancouver and nearby cities, there are now a number of growing tournaments in Seattle, Portland, and a number of smaller cities in between.
We now have 200 players on our roster of tournament participants, and though I don't have real hard numbers to generalize this all of my opponents who are new on the scene talk about having a gaming group of 4-5 other guys who aren't tournament players. All one can really infer from that is that the WHFB scene here is likely at least 3-5 times larger than it would otherwise appear.
I think the biggest struggle for WHFB is growth. It takes a lot more effort to get new people into the hobby than it did before, given the size and complexity of entry. Even though most armies aren't the ridiculously bloated multi-horde lists people in this thread have been suggesting, the game is still much more expensive to enter than it was when I started back in 8th. Any new army I have priced out costs somewhere in the range of $400-900, and that's not even including dud units that you buy, playtest, and then shelf after a bunch of games. That's a tough barrier for new players to get over.
Part of what makes me so excited for these 9th rumours. A dedicated low-level skirmish games would go miles to make this hobby more accessible to get into. 8th edition is pretty awful at point levels below 1,500, and that's the sort of level a new entrant to the hobby is going to play. That injects new blood into the game, who hopefully graduate to a higher level of play like my friends and I did. There's no reason to expect people to escalate to 2,500 point tournament games right off the bat, but that's what the current system is predicated upon.
I'd also like to add that a significant portion of the remaining WHFB "official" players (that is, the ones playing 8th and not "oldhammering"), at this stage, seem to fit the stereotypical "die-hard fanboy" profile: fanatical loyalty to GW, heavy distaste (when not outright hatred) towards everything "non GW" (specially non GW models that make decent alternatives to some GW models) and aggresive attitudes towards anyone daring to criticise GW. In short, "GW gamers". Which then came out as a bunch of elitist douchebags ("I paid this much for my armies and won't play against some cheap knock-offs"), which contributes even more to drive potential newcomers away from Fantasy.
That last paragraph is just a personal feeling based on some things I've seen here and there, mostly on the internet. I don't know if others may feel the same.
In any case, The (hilariously badly written and edited) End Times look like the final nail in the coffin to me.
What possible evidence do you base this on? There are myriad of miniature companies whose entire business model is predicated on selling alternative models to WHFB players. Mantic, Raging Heroes, Avatars of War, Mierce, on and on it goes. Almost all of them had recent kickstarters, all of which also met with significant success. Of course, all of these are also starting up games of their own to use these rules with...but they have nowhere near the traction that WHFB does. And they know it...which is why a large portion of their range very clearly mirrors those of current GW armies.
My own army is almost entirely non-GW in core (80 wargames factory skeletons) and heroes (vampires from Enigma and ... another company I can't remember). I also have 80 mantic zombies on the painting queue. In my gaming group there is a guy with an Empire army made entirely of historicals, numerous mantic replacements, Reaper character models, third-party Kdaii Destroyers, and other non-GW minis. But all of them get used in WHFB, because that is the GAME that people enjoy and share in common.
As I said above, the hobby is always going to shed gamers regardless of what is happening with the actual rules. Life circumstances change, tastes change, new shiny wargames come out that pull people away for a month or a year or indefinitely. You need new blood recouping that, and GW's biggest struggle with WHFB has been that the game only really functions in the 2,000 to 3,000 point range, and the price tag for an army at that size will drive new players away.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: What possible evidence do you base this on? There are myriad of miniature companies whose entire business model is predicated on selling alternative models to WHFB players. Mantic, Raging Heroes, Avatars of War, Mierce, on and on it goes. Almost all of them had recent kickstarters, all of which also met with significant success. Of course, all of these are also starting up games of their own to use these rules with...but they have nowhere near the traction that WHFB does. And they know it...which is why a large portion of their range very clearly mirrors those of current GW armies.
I admit it's difficult to point towards concrete evidence, as no trustworthy data exist, but the same goes either way. We don't really know to what degree all those "new" games (some of them not-that-new, but anyway) combined are that far from WHFB. At least, from current, "official", 8th edition WHFB.
My own army is almost entirely non-GW in core (80 wargames factory skeletons) and heroes (vampires from Enigma and ... another company I can't remember). I also have 80 mantic zombies on the painting queue. In my gaming group there is a guy with an Empire army made entirely of historicals, numerous mantic replacements, Reaper character models, third-party Kdaii Destroyers, and other non-GW minis. But all of them get used in WHFB, because that is the GAME that people enjoy and share in common.
I'm truly glad to read that, seriously. It's almost heartwarming to get reminded not everybody out there still playing 8th is the stereotypical GWombie. Sometimes it's difficult not to forget, having seen the things I've actually seen.
I'm actually intrigued to know something. If you don't mind, can I inquire about the reason a group like yours sticks to 8th edition instead of trying to adapt and house-rule an earlier version of the game? I understand you guys like 8th, you wouldn't be playing if it weren't the case, but I'm curious about this, because IMO 5th edition adding some of 6th improvements and a bit of house-ruling (sometimes taken straight from the tips and advices of the designing team of that time) is still the best ruleset ever released for Fantasy.
As I said above, the hobby is always going to shed gamers regardless of what is happening with the actual rules. Life circumstances change, tastes change, new shiny wargames come out that pull people away for a month or a year or indefinitely. You need new blood recouping that, and GW's biggest struggle with WHFB has been that the game only really functions in the 2,000 to 3,000 point range, and the price tag for an army at that size will drive new players away.
Perhaps that's IMO the problem with 8th edition, it only works properly in the 2k-3k point range but the game system is built upon a base that can't really handle properly anything over 1500 points games. 6th edition was overall a nice job but since then they've just been piling special rules on top of more special rules, and IMO the only result from that is the bloated mess GW games are at the moment (not only Fantasy, but 40k as well).
I admit it's difficult to point towards concrete evidence, as no trustworthy data exist, but the same goes either way. We don't really know to what degree all those "new" games (some of them not-that-new, but anyway) combined are that far from WHFB. At least, from current, "official", 8th edition WHFB.
Tough to say. It's one thing to get excited about a kickstarter, and another to get into the game enough to spend subsequent hobby dollars on it at full retail. For all of my clubmates who got into Darklands there twice as many sitting around to see whether they a) deliver and b) the game is worth the paper it's written on.
Korinov wrote: I'm truly glad to read that, seriously. It's almost heartwarming to get reminded not everybody out there still playing 8th is the stereotypical GWombie. Sometimes it's difficult not to forget, having seen the things I've actually seen.
There will always be cranky people around for sure. I have gotten flack from people for my Nehekharan-themed Vampire Counts army, on the basis that they look like Tomb Kings even though there are no actual TK models in my current roster. However for every person like that there are a dozen more who just think it's awesome.
Really comes down to the strength of your local meta, and whether the good players drown out the bad.
Korinov wrote: I'm actually intrigued to know something. If you don't mind, can I inquire about the reason a group like yours sticks to 8th edition instead of trying to adapt and house-rule an earlier version of the game? I understand you guys like 8th, you wouldn't be playing if it weren't the case, but I'm curious about this, because IMO 5th edition adding some of 6th improvements and a bit of house-ruling (sometimes taken straight from the tips and advices of the designing team of that time) is still the best ruleset ever released for Fantasy.
This question has been coming up a lot recently, and the answer is quite honestly that 9/10 players in our local meta think that 8th edition is the best version of WHFB to date. It has some issues, and is getting a little bit stale in certain ways (especially if you're one of the older armybooks), but by and large it is a very deep and interesting game that keeps us all coming back for more.
Part of that is the complexity and depth of decision-making. People dislike the "randomness" of certain aspects of the game, but I really revel in it. Once you understand the probabilities it's really easy to crunch out how things are likely to go. I know that my M8 swiftstride cav bus is almost guaranteed to make a 4-6" charge, can be relied upon to make a 7-9" charge, and is gambling if I push too much higher than that. Means you have to plan ahead a turn or two, and be really careful how much distance you give to people.
Whereas before it was a game of "who is better at judging distances," now it's all about risk allocation, forcing bad decisions, and applying pressure. To me it feels like the difference between 5-card stud and hold'em to me. Both games are primarily about reading and playing the opponent, not the cards, but with Hold'em you get just a little more information to work with. Yeah sometimes your opponent will river that one damned card they needed, on a hand they had no business staying calling you with...but it's a card game. You chose how much of your pot to risk, on the knowledge that sometimes things won't go your way.
Korinov wrote: Perhaps that's IMO the problem with 8th edition, it only works properly in the 2k-3k point range but the game system is built upon a base that can't really handle properly anything over 1500 points games. 6th edition was overall a nice job but since then they've just been piling special rules on top of more special rules, and IMO the only result from that is the bloated mess GW games are at the moment (not only Fantasy, but 40k as well).
Perhaps it's just because it's the game I've grown accustomed to, but a 2,500 point army looks like a proper friggin' army on the table. I wouldn't want to go back to a smaller game at this point, even if it was available. Perhaps if I was starting a new army, so that I could play with my army at an earlier state, but I would always eventually be wanting to build to the level it is at now.
It's about variety of options on the tabletop really. Pushing 3 units around the table is nowhere near as fun as the well-honed machine you get at higher levels, comprised of a dozen or so working parts all operating in conjunction. And MSU armies are king right now in 8th edition, outside of certain comp systems that push the armies different ways.
Game definitely needs to be streamlined somewhat, which is what I'm sensing is going on with rumours. Unit vs. unit combat, to get away from the character-wall shenanigans that result from the current system of base-contact attack allocation. There needs to be some way to combat deathstars outside of Dwellers and Final Trans, which tournaments have been doing with homebrew scenarios and objectives that really ought to be in the BRB. Building rules need to be fixed.
6E functioned just fine at 1000-2000 pts (with similar model counts as 5E), but 8E "needs" to be 2000-3000? That's 50% more stuff to buy, build & paint - driving home how 8E is more expensive than 6E.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: ]Says nothing about the game on any sort of objective basis, only that a few players didn't like that and as a result the ones who did ended up without a community anymore.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say it says nothing about the game. Of course it says something about the game. The things it says might be subjective, but they are still there. Requiring significantly larger armies, random charge distances, unbalanced magic phase have all made the game less appealing for a large subset of the existing community and the first one has also made it hard for new players. To think that says nothing about the game is frankly being just a little bit silly. The number of models required to play a game is one of the key metrics when talking about a game, lol.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: ]Says nothing about the game on any sort of objective basis, only that a few players didn't like that and as a result the ones who did ended up without a community anymore.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say it says nothing about the game. Of course it says something about the game. The things it says might be subjective, but they are still there. Requiring significantly larger armies, random charge distances, unbalanced magic phase have all made the game less appealing for a large subset of the existing community and the first one has also made it hard for new players. To think that says nothing about the game is frankly being just a little bit silly. The number of models required to play a game is one of the key metrics when talking about a game, lol.
You missed the "...on any sort of objective basis." Some people *subjectively* not liking rule changes is enough to kill a community that's small enough, or if the number of those people is large enough or those people are important enough in encouraging others to play and join. If all the Tournament Organizers loathe an edition change and quit at once you're going to have troubles sustaining a community unless other players step up.
All of which doesn't require the rules to actually be any worse...just for a few people to not like them.
Does WHFB require a whack of models? Yes. Does it require anywhere near the numbers people suggest they do? No. Not at all. New players seem to gravitate towards hordes of cheap infantry though, which is kind of funny considering that's both a) incredibly expensive and b) really quite gakky on the battlefield. Though I suppose the people who DON'T fall into that category just play WoC.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: 6E functioned just fine at 1000-2000 pts (with similar model counts as 5E), but 8E "needs" to be 2000-3000? That's 50% more stuff to buy, build & paint - driving home how 8E is more expensive than 6E.
I'm not saying the game isn't more expensive. It is objectively more expensive. I'm saying the game is better to play.
It's also a problem for growing the hobby, as I've said above. Which is why I hope that 9th edition brings the best of both worlds. A game that scales well between small level games and large-scale mass battles. Because as much as people complain about the cost, a big reason lots of people enjoy WHFB is because it is a MASS battle game. I plunk I'm plunking 140 models onto the board in my "elite MSU" VC army and I love every second of it. If the standard play shrunk to 1,000 to 1,500 points I would be a lot less interested in the system.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: ]Says nothing about the game on any sort of objective basis, only that a few players didn't like that and as a result the ones who did ended up without a community anymore.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to say it says nothing about the game. Of course it says something about the game. The things it says might be subjective, but they are still there. Requiring significantly larger armies, random charge distances, unbalanced magic phase have all made the game less appealing for a large subset of the existing community and the first one has also made it hard for new players. To think that says nothing about the game is frankly being just a little bit silly. The number of models required to play a game is one of the key metrics when talking about a game, lol.
You missed the "...on any sort of objective basis." Some people *subjectively* not liking rule changes is enough to kill a community that's small enough, or if the number of those people is large enough or those people are important enough in encouraging others to play and join. If all the Tournament Organizers loathe an edition change and quit at once you're going to have troubles sustaining a community unless other players step up.
All of which doesn't require the rules to actually be any worse...just for a few people to not like them..
Sorry I am too tired and I missed that part, lol.
But the subjective parts are the important parts. It's the subjective parts that make a community and the community is what makes the game. Especially when, as you pointed out, the number of people that leave because they subjectively don't like the changes outweighs the influx of new players (which is massively hurt by the size of the game).
We can argue whether big games are better or worse, it's subjective, but it's an important metric. We can argue whether the shifting focuses are objectively better or worse and it doesn't really matter if enough people don't like them and leave because of it.
GW always should have put more effort in to things like Warbands, which let you play a game with only a handful of models (and frankly I found those small games quite enjoyable). The worry now is that GW are just going to feth everything up by throwing the baby out with the bath water.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nah, players were whiny before, but they were still playing...
Fair play, but gamers aren't exactly well-known for taking major changes in stride.
5th to 6th was just as big of a change, if not bigger, than 7th to 8th and the number of players increased by a considerable amount.
People (even gamers) didn't drop simply because there was a change in the game, they dropped because that change turned the game into something that they didn't like any more.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nah, players were whiny before, but they were still playing...
Fair play, but gamers aren't exactly well-known for taking major changes in stride.
5th to 6th was just as big of a change, if not bigger, than 7th to 8th and the number of players increased by a considerable amount.
People (even gamers) didn't drop simply because there was a change in the game, they dropped because that change turned the game into something that they didn't like any more.
Went from 3rd through to 8th. I just thought 8th wasn't very good and wasn't very fun after giving it a while, so I cashed out (kept one army for old times sake, having been my only force from 92 through to 2006ish) and moved on.
Does WHFB require a whack of models? Yes. Does it require anywhere near the numbers people suggest they do? No. Not at all. New players seem to gravitate towards hordes of cheap infantry though, which is kind of funny considering that's both a) incredibly expensive and b) really quite gakky on the battlefield. Though I suppose the people who DON'T fall into that category just play WoC.
This is actually totally true. People want to have whopping great blocks of spearmen. The problem comes when the imagery of the game says historical mass combat, but the price point says skirmish game.
Does WHFB require a whack of models? Yes. Does it require anywhere near the numbers people suggest they do? No. Not at all. New players seem to gravitate towards hordes of cheap infantry though, which is kind of funny considering that's both a) incredibly expensive and b) really quite gakky on the battlefield. Though I suppose the people who DON'T fall into that category just play WoC.
This is actually totally true. People want to have whopping great blocks of spearmen. The problem comes when the imagery of the game says historical mass combat, but the price point says skirmish game.
I don't want whopping great blocks of spearmen. Money wise I can afford them, that's not a problem at all for many people.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:Went from 3rd through to 8th. I just thought 8th wasn't very good and wasn't very fun after giving it a while, so I cashed out (kept one army for old times sake, having been my only force from 92 through to 2006ish) and moved on.
This is basically what happened in our small group. We had been trudging through games of WFB, and someone linked to BoLS state of 8E, finally admitting that they weren't having fun. Which was great, because I had been reaching the same position of wanting to hang it up.
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Charles Rampant wrote:This is actually totally true. People want to have whopping great blocks of spearmen. The problem comes when the imagery of the game says historical mass combat, but the price point says skirmish game.
People like the look of block infantry, but the work of buying and painting of historical volumes of infantry doesn't work. And even then, it's not really right. A historical mass combat is not 100 men in a unit. It's 100s, with 10,000s per side in Europe, 100,000s per side in Asia. Wooden blocks make a lot of sense for historicals.
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PhantomViper wrote:No, I actually don't wan't to have "whopping great blocks of spearmen".
Me too that was part of the draw for me for fantasy. 40k simply didn't have that amassed armies clashing on the field of battle feeling. When I played fantasy I liked feeling like it was huge amounts of troops, lined up, battle cannons ready, the fog of war on an early morning field and huge armies crashing into each other. I stopped playing warhammer around the time troops didn't seem to matter anymore and everyone was throwing around apocalyptic magic that wiped out whole armies in one turn. I didn't like buying some meaty units to have them usually make no more a difference than the standard troops. In short i just dislike the magic phase all together. Wouldn't be so bad if say 1-2 models in an army actually used magic but now everyone and their mothers use it, swords use it, guns use it, pet squigs use it. Magical overload.
I enjoy *seeing* them. I have no desire to *paint* them and *store* them and *transport* them and be removing giant piles of models as casualties during a game.
I like regimental combat, but at 28mm scale and in the context of a game (opposed to a giant diorama) I much prefer smaller blocks of 10-20 models.
Playing larger games I prefer it if you simply increase the numbers of blocks you have rather than increasing the size of the blocks.
If playing with giant blocks I'd rather swap to a game of possibly 15mm scale where models are just based as regiments instead of individuals.
Regarding WHFB, I feel the same distaste towards "magical overload" and super spells than "huge infantry blocks everywhere".
Fantasy was originally designed as a skirmish game, and was later turned into a big skirmish/dark ages battles game. And that's as far as the system could really keep up with the changes. 6th edition at 1500 points was probably the most balanced the game ever got, with enough models on the table (but not too many), some magic (but not too much, as super-wizards were simply prohibitive at 1500p) and no herohammer. As far as my taste goes, 5th edition rulebook with some of the things 6th added or clarified (magic, fly, etc.) is probably the best WHFB you'll ever get.
Seriously, if someone asked me about a tabletop game which correctly represents massive fantasy battles, WHFB would probably be one of the last things I'd consider to mention. Because no matter how many models you pile up on a table, everything you may play won't be much more than a bloated, oversized skirmish. Instead I'd point them towards games that truly work from a "regimental" point of scale, you know where a regiment is an actual unit with its own stats, and fights as a real unit until it is rooted or destroyed. And you don't count the losses by one wound inflicted to one soldier, each at a time.
Not to mention, as I see it, 28mm scale is simply not suited for a mass battles game. The models are just too big, unless they're used to merely represent a "regiment" like it happens, afaiac, in KoW.
PS: by "dark ages battles" I mean the kind of battles that were going on in dark ages Europe, back when 80 guys with swords and axes were a reasonably sized army and the charge of the 5 heavy horsemen could actually decide a battle. That's Warhammer Fantasy in a nutshell, plus elves and magic obviously. In short, WHFB was meant to be this, not this. If you want your battles to look like the second pic, seriously there are more suitable systems to do it, and you can even use the same minis - they will just represent things on a different scale.
Seriously tho, after witnessing a huge 28mm ECW game filling an 8-foot table, I'd agree with Korinov (edit: and John) that 28mm is maybe not all that suited to 'epic' battles. (I think there's a reason GW called their old 6mm game that!) Not least 'cos you can play smaller scales over a table that you're not in danger of collapsing on by the mere act of reaching. I'll use 28mm if gamers or sellers have collections or specific ranges in that scale, and like the man says there are systems that are a bit less skewed towards '1 figure = 1 soldier' (I know a guy who laughs at the idea of Archaon invading the Empire with, like, twelve knights) but I have to say I'm quite fond of the 6mm, 10mm and 15mm minis that I have, less detailed and more monoposed as they might be. Even something about the smaller scale, with the same number of minis, seems more 'grand' and, well, epic. And I feel I have to mention that in my experience, despite common misgivings about tinier scales being more difficult to paint, they're much more forgiving of simple basecoats, layers and washes - partly because greater contrast works better on smaller minis, and partly because of the en masse effect.
Only problems are that relevant ranges are not as apparently extensive, and some of those that exist can have some... 'rushed' look about them. But I think they're getting better. (Have you seen this indiegogo? Been waiting on it a while, but it's close to completion and I'm getting a little giddy. Oh, and, lookit that preferred game system halfway down the page...)
Vermis wrote: I say we all switch to 6mm. Come on, brothers!
Seriously tho, after witnessing a huge 28mm ECW game filling an 8-foot table, I'd agree with Korinov (edit: and John EDIT: and AllSeeingSkink who mentioned it first!!!) that 28mm is maybe not all that suited to 'epic' battles. (I think there's a reason GW called their old 6mm game that!) Not least 'cos you can play smaller scales over a table that you're not in danger of collapsing on by the mere act of reaching. I'll use 28mm if gamers or sellers have collections or specific ranges in that scale, and like the man says there are systems that are a bit less skewed towards '1 figure = 1 soldier' (I know a guy who laughs at the idea of Archaon invading the Empire with, like, twelve knights) but I have to say I'm quite fond of the 6mm, 10mm and 15mm minis that I have, less detailed and more monoposed as they might be. Even something about the smaller scale, with the same number of minis, seems more 'grand' and, well, epic. And I feel I have to mention that in my experience, despite common misgivings about tinier scales being more difficult to paint, they're much more forgiving of simple basecoats, layers and washes - partly because greater contrast works better on smaller minis, and partly because of the en masse effect.
Only problems are that relevant ranges are not as apparently extensive, and some of those that exist can have some... 'rushed' look about them. But I think they're getting better. (Have you seen this indiegogo? Been waiting on it a while, but it's close to completion and I'm getting a little giddy. Oh, and, lookit that preferred game system halfway down the page...)
See bold and underlined :p
But yeah, I think 15mm is a sweet spot myself. The models are still big enough to paint to a high standard, but you can have hundreds of infantry on a 4x4 table and it still looks natural and really awesome. I'm working on a 15mm WW2 army at the moment and you can have a dozen tanks per side without it looking crowded or silly.
At 28mm it only really works for a Skirmish, because if you do start taking really big regiments ranked ~10 deep it doesn't look like a whole battle, it looks like a segment of a battle which looks rather unnatural to me.
But 28mm is nice, I think it USED to be a nice compromise before the armies got so huge that it became painful to deal with them. 40k suffers the same problem, if anything it's worse in 40k because not only is it a pain in the arse to paint, store and transport all those models, you have to move them all individually!
I also have special feelings for 15mm scale. I have two DBA armies and, while DBA isn't mean to represent mass scale battles either, to see my dozen blocks deploying and moving throughout the table feels more "mass battle" than anything I've ever achieved with WHFB. Actually the few times me and my friends have actually tried to go the "mass battle" route with WHFB (4000 points battles with 2 players per side), we've ended up running out of time in the 3rd turn, with the battle yet to be decided. It took us sooo much time to go through deployment and the movement phases in the first two turns, the experience was more boring and frustrating than anything else.
Yeah, 10mm and 6mm is better suited to mass battle but I don't really like it for infantry based games because at that scale the infantry just starts to turn in to amorphous blobs. Those are good scales for vehicles though. I think 15mm is a good compromise, you can still have quite detailed infantry and you can fill a table with tanks and/or infantry and it actually looks like a right proper battle.
Vermis wrote: I say we all switch to 6mm. Come on, brothers!
Thats pretty much my intention at this point. I love the scale of such games like Flames of war but im not well versed in game systems outside of GW and some of the larger systems. So if anyone can point me in the general direction of some great smaller scale systems I would greatly appreciate it. Makes me kind of sad they stopped epic scale GW models. I'll take any setting fantasy, future so on in scales 5mm to around 15mm its surprisingly hard to find recommendations.
I've heard good things about Warmaster but I never really got a chance to try it (I've been around GW stuff since early 5th edition but Warmaster came out while I was taking a break from wargaming).
I'd love to see GW release Warmaster and Epic again, or even better to release 15mm versions of their games (though 15mm is probably too close to their main lines for them to do it).
But 28mm is nice, I think it USED to be a nice compromise before the armies got so huge that it became painful to deal with them. 40k suffers the same problem, if anything it's worse in 40k because not only is it a pain in the arse to paint, store and transport all those models, you have to move them all individually!
Pfft. Even 1.5K with a few movement trays bored me.
AtomicEngineer wrote:Thats pretty much my intention at this point. I love the scale of such games like Flames of war but im not well versed in game systems outside of GW and some of the larger systems. So if anyone can point me in the general direction of some great smaller scale systems I would greatly appreciate it. Makes me kind of sad they stopped epic scale GW models. I'll take any setting fantasy, future so on in scales 5mm to around 15mm its surprisingly hard to find recommendations.
The one I keep harping about, and mentioned in that old Indiegogo page: Mayhem. The scale options (mostly boiling down to base size) include 28mm, but some of the mechanics and measurements are arguably better suited to the other two options: 10mm and 15mm. I have slowly growing Warmaster high elf, skaven and 10mm BoFA armies*, though while I don't have much against Warmaster, they're co-opted for Mayhem. (2 40x20mm WM bases = 1 Mayhem 40mm base)
Command and control is based around leader orders, and a pool of action points generated at the start of each player's turn, and the length of the turn depends on how a player doles out said points and how quick they're used up. (quicker if the player concentrates on a few units to perform several actions, and if they're given orders outside the character's range.) Stats for basic actions (movement, attack, shooting, defense) are given as polydice types, with an option to use a default 'roll'. E.g. in combat the lower-rolling unit wins. Say that ogres have a D8 combat stat, and basic humans have D12. Ogres have a better chance of rolling lower than the humans, but there's a chance they can fluff it, so they can choose to take the default of half the die's value: 4. Humans can take their default (6) too, but they might want to risk a roll to beat the ogres' default or standard roll. Dice rolls can be modified to include more dice (taking the best single result) or to change the dice type, depending on position, supporting units, unit type, weapons, armour, or USRs applied to the unit.
That's the other thing: they're universal rules. (sounds nicer than 'generic rules', donit?) No proprietary or special-ruling background attached to it: you can attach whatever standard fantasy background you like. (Heck, with the 'bound construct' rules in the Stronghold expansion, you can stick in Warcasters and their Warjacks...) There are guidelines for building units with a points cost, by choosing the basic statline, along with said unit type, weapons, armour, USRs, spells for wizards, etc.
For others, there's a list I posted elsewhere:
Kings of War Mayhem Legions of Battle Armies of Arcana Warmaster (might need some jiggling for 28mm)
Hordes of the Things (HoTT, based on the DBX series of historical wargames)
Fantasy Warriors (an old set with a couple of versions floating about. Read here. Mirliton's site isn't working for me right now but EM4 has an English download here.)
Fantasy Rules! (Ta Ken)
God of Battles (pretty interesting new set, IMO, written by Jake Thornton and sold by Wargames Foundry. Based around Foundry's own factions, but I've seen some cunning counts-as. Biggest problem is the price of the enormous full-colour book full of photos and painting articles of Foundry's dubious minis.)
Impetus (Popular historical game with a fantasy expansion & lists. See the bottom of the page. 12cm unit element frontages - also useful for 10-figure boxes)
That was a list of possible alternatives for 28mm Warhammer armies, but I know a few can be used for smaller scales. Warmaster especially. HoTT and Impetus are also scale-neutral. (with some base size changes in the latter, at least) I've heard and seen other gamers playing KoW and God of Battles with 15mm minis. (Again, by halving the dimensions of a KoW regiment, horde etc. footprint - 100x80mm to 50x40mm) Not entirely sure about Armies of Arcana or Fantasy Rules... I think Legions of Battle was purpose-built for disgruntled Warhammer armies, but by that token you could try the same as smaller-scale KoW and skew the measurements and the multibases down for smaller scales.
*Pro: for all I moan at them, I think GW made some of the best 10mm minis. Quite cleanly sculpted and decently proportioned. Con: way OOP. There are enough high elves still on ebay to grab an occasional bargain or at least non-outrageous price labels, but when I look for skaven or lizardmen, nuthin'.
I dunno about other 10mm. Kallistra and Pendraken don't entirely appeal, especially with their scale creep and Asterix-faced dwarfs. (I like Asterix, but...) Ditto with Copplestone's 'big 10' 12mms sitting beside my wee BoFA plastics, and his pointy-nosed wolves and slightly odd horses. His not-fellbeast makes me want to cry. Eureka and Yann Hourau might have the best 10mm stuff these days, IMO. Microworld does some great Warhammer-world-friendly 6mm armies, but like Skink I find myself veering towards 15mm these days. It seems to have become much more popular in the last few years, not just with fantasy, though the likes of Khurasan, old Demonworld at Ral Partha Europe, and Copplestone's 15mm stand out for the genre.
So do I, which is why I went headlong into Napoleonics! Dirt cheap too, with Perry plastics coming in around 50pish per model.
But I also love my WHFB setting. Honestly if they ever redid warmaster I'd be ll for it.
Pike & Shotte has a section on creating yr own units. If I get the fantasy itch, I'm gonna use that for developing the right feel for whichever WFB army is getting put on the table.
I didn't feel like reading the 10 pages of comments before writing this so I apologize if this has been said already. I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors. Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be. IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I didn't feel like reading the 10 pages of comments before writing this so I apologize if this has been said already. I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors. Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be. IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
That's where my money is. Following the trend of what Wizards is doing with 5th ed D&D: lots of the old guard loathed the new 4th edition, even though much of what it changed were needed improvements to fix the bloated, inaccessible mess that was 3rd and previous editions. 5th edition strikes a very careful balance between the two, preserving the accessibility of 4th along with its better balance of progression and dynamism between classes, while also toning down the overemphasis on combat that 4th had and bringing back the greater focus on narrative of previous editions.
As somone who's been playing this game since 5th, I strongly believe that 8th is the best edition of fantasy released thus far. My entire gaming group is in roughly the same boat (some have been playing since much earlier, while others came in during 6th or 7th...and 90% love 8th over previous editions). However there are absolutely aspects that need changing. The super spells are obnoxious, even if they're not as game-breaking as people think. Hordes and steadfast give infantry a viable place in people's lists, but also make massive unshiftable infantry deathstars super obnoxious. Directing attacks against specific models is cool, but cav buses and character walls are super obnoxious as well.
Also the changes that made the game great at the tournament level have really made the game much less accessible to new players. The game isn't really functional or balanced until you start hitting 1.5k to 2k minimum, which is a huge investment for a new player. There either needs to be a secondary game to ease that transition, or the game needs to scale better.
If done right, I think GW has the potential to make it happen. There are changes I can imagine that could strike that necessary balance. It's just a question of whether they'll hit it.
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors.
Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be.
IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
Most of us are n00bs who didn't get in until 6E or so.
That's a good selection. When did Chaos first appear?
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors.
Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be.
IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
Most of us are n00bs who didn't get in until 6E or so.
That's a good selection. When did Chaos first appear?
I think that's good.
I don't to be honest. I was 1st exposed to WHFB when in 1st ed most game shops didn't have GW products and just had pamphlets with a sample armies and some background. I think chaos came in 3rd or 4th ed. 5thed brought brets and lizards.
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I didn't feel like reading the 10 pages of comments before writing this so I apologize if this has been said already. I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors. Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be. IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
That's where my money is. Following the trend of what Wizards is doing with 5th ed D&D: lots of the old guard loathed the new 4th edition, even though much of what it changed were needed improvements to fix the bloated, inaccessible mess that was 3rd and previous editions. 5th edition strikes a very careful balance between the two, preserving the accessibility of 4th along with its better balance of progression and dynamism between classes, while also toning down the overemphasis on combat that 4th had and bringing back the greater focus on narrative of previous editions.
As somone who's been playing this game since 5th, I strongly believe that 8th is the best edition of fantasy released thus far. My entire gaming group is in roughly the same boat (some have been playing since much earlier, while others came in during 6th or 7th...and 90% love 8th over previous editions). However there are absolutely aspects that need changing. The super spells are obnoxious, even if they're not as game-breaking as people think. Hordes and steadfast give infantry a viable place in people's lists, but also make massive unshiftable infantry deathstars super obnoxious. Directing attacks against specific models is cool, but cav buses and character walls are super obnoxious as well.
Also the changes that made the game great at the tournament level have really made the game much less accessible to new players. The game isn't really functional or balanced until you start hitting 1.5k to 2k minimum, which is a huge investment for a new player. There either needs to be a secondary game to ease that transition, or the game needs to scale better.
If done right, I think GW has the potential to make it happen. There are changes I can imagine that could strike that necessary balance. It's just a question of whether they'll hit it.
I totally agree that 8th is the best ed. I can't comment on the d&d stuff, I haven't played that since 2nd ed. My game group is all about 8th. I also agree that 8th does have its problems. 1/3 of my game group stopped with WHFB for Mordheim. I think the biggest imbalance in the game is the broad, turn based gameplay. That's a different rant though. All I have to say is dwarven gun line and good rolls.
I totally agree that 8th is the best ed. I can't comment on the d&d stuff, I haven't played that since 2nd ed. My game group is all about 8th. I also agree that 8th does have its problems. 1/3 of my game group stopped with WHFB for Mordheim. I think the biggest imbalance in the game is the broad, turn based gameplay. That's a different rant though. All I have to say is dwarven gun line and good rolls.
Thats more a problem with dwarfs than anything, though. As an army they are terribly designed, and deserve to be rolled in with empire. Good riddance, I say...
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors.
Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be.
IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
Most of us are n00bs who didn't get in until 6E or so.
That's a good selection. When did Chaos first appear?
I think that's good.
I don't to be honest. I was 1st exposed to WHFB when in 1st ed most game shops didn't have GW products and just had pamphlets with a sample armies and some background. I think chaos came in 3rd or 4th ed. 5thed brought brets and lizards.
Huh? It's not good that they might be trying to bring older players back into the game? I find that a strange response.
BTW, thanks for noting the arrival of Chaos - interesting that it took as long as it did.
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: I'm really surprised that no one has speculated that in addition to revamping there is a degree of "getting back to basics" in the rumors.
Fantasy started off with 6 armies (skaven, o & g, undead, elves, empire, dwarves) and this whole skirmish deal people keep talking about, its what fantasy used to be.
IMO, if the rumors are true, GW is actually trying to bring back the old school people into the game as well as newbs. Also, they're prob trying to set up another boom like 5th ed. that's my 2 warp tokens
Most of us are n00bs who didn't get in until 6E or so.
That's a good selection. When did Chaos first appear?
I think that's good.
I don't to be honest. I was 1st exposed to WHFB when in 1st ed most game shops didn't have GW products and just had pamphlets with a sample armies and some background. I think chaos came in 3rd or 4th ed. 5thed brought brets and lizards.
Huh? It's not good that they might be trying to bring older players back into the game? I find that a strange response.
BTW, thanks for noting the arrival of Chaos - interesting that it took as long as it did.
When we talk about bringing "older" players back we're normally talking 5 to 20 years ago, which was 4th through 7th edition. That's when the game was best loved and had a wide audience. Trying to capture people from 1st edition... I'm guessing there aren't many around because the game wasn't hugely popular back then and given it came out in the early 80's I think most of those people would be in their 50's now
GW are massively overshooting the mark if they're trying to bring back original WHFB players
Also Brets and Lizardmen (in the form of the Slann) were around before 5th. They were left out of 4th though and heavily reworked back in to 5th. I think the Slann were a 1st ed army. Not sure about Bretonnia though, they go back to 3rd (late 80's) as far as I know, but maybe earlier as well. Chaos were around in 2nd, but I don't know in what form and when exactly they were released (2nd edition I believe was an expansion to 1st that came out only a year or so after 1st).
The predecessor to 1st edition was Reaper, I don't know anything about that though.
piraterobot- for the most part. O&G can build some nasty artillery lists too. Elves depending on the build. IDK if its just the caliber of players ive been around but I see a lot of 1st turn=win. IMO, I just think the way GW does turn based is hoaky and unrealistic in a game that emphasizes relative realism.
Hwang- Sorry. I thought that was pretty clear. I believe its a good thing.
Skink-my GW timeline must be a little off. I thought WHFB came about in the late, not early 80's. When I first found those GW pamphlets, It was early 90's with only the 6 armies I mentioned earlier. That doesn't mean that other armies weren't out. Im just saying there were only those 6. I agree though 4th-7th ed is prob considerd the heyday of WHFB.
Let me clarify. I don't mean they're trying to appeal solely to the old 1st ed players. They're trying to appeal to the people that have dropped off because of how much GW has changed the game over the years. They want to bring on another boom the way 4th ed and 5th ed did. I meet a ton of people who used to play and dropped of bcuz of GW problems. IMO, if GW had half those people come back, it would make fantasy about even with 40k. Since my start in 5th ed, I've seen well over half my group leave the game. I partly think its because of the players themselves though. In general I see 3 types of players people who really do just want to have fun, people who take the game way to seriously, and people who take having fun way too seriously. With the exception of myself and a few others, most of the people in my group take having fun way too seriously and it drives people away just as much as the people who take the game too seriously
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: Skink-my GW timeline must be a little off. I thought WHFB came about in the late, not early 80's. When I first found those GW pamphlets, It was early 90's with only the 6 armies I mentioned earlier. That doesn't mean that other armies weren't out. Im just saying there were only those 6. I agree though 4th-7th ed is prob considerd the heyday of WHFB.
3rd edition was the one that came out in the late 80's (1987), 1st and 2nd were early 80's (1983 and 84). But yeah, perhaps the pamphlets were limited in what they covered, because I can't think of a time when there only would have been those 6. Chaos definitely were around in the late 80's because 1988 is when "Slaves to Darkness" came out, don't know of their presence prior to that. Slann were around before 3rd, so they came out some time between 1983 and 1987.
But I started late 4th to early 5th myself (just when the 5th boxed set came out), what I know of previous editions is just what I've read, what people have told me and what ancient 2nd hand books and models my FLGS had from earlier editions
Let me clarify. I don't mean they're trying to appeal solely to the old 1st ed players. They're trying to appeal to the people that have dropped off because of how much GW has changed the game over the years. They want to bring on another boom the way 4th ed and 5th ed did. I meet a ton of people who used to play and dropped of bcuz of GW problems. IMO, if GW had half those people come back, it would make fantasy about even with 40k. Since my start in 5th ed, I've seen well over half my group leave the game. I partly think its because of the players themselves though. In general I see 3 types of players people who really do just want to have fun, people who take the game way to seriously, and people who take having fun way too seriously. With the exception of myself and a few others, most of the people in my group take having fun way too seriously and it drives people away just as much as the people who take the game too seriously
I'd say if you still have around half your players from 5th you are probably doing better than most. I'm the only person who is still actively interested in WHFB from my group that started in 5th, and I haven't really played since 8th came out (only a few games) One other guy still has his models and still talks about playing but he doesn't keep up to date unless I tell him what's going on and hasn't played a game in many years.
But yeah, of course, GW are hoping to create an influx in both new customers and old customers buying more stuff by making a major change. But a change in the game is not enough to bring back the people disenchanted by GW themselves and I think the level of GW shooting themselves in the foot with annoying old customers will outweigh the influx of new players if they change the face of the game.
Yeah GW is good at shooting themselves in the foot. At the same time though I hear people who haven't been in the game for a while say "...I'll check it out. I might start back up." Ppl def get frustrated with GW but some people act like GW has to appeal directly to them, like anything short of their expectation is failure of GW. There's also the problem of not ever being able to make everybody happy. If the rumors are true and people stick with 8th I think eventually someone will produce a fan based 9th and prob many fan based "9th eds" will come about. The rumors suck and I believe are at least partially true but the new rules set may actually be good and can be applied at large scale. If it turns out to be skirmish level, I think it could actually turn out nice. It would seem GW has been testing this for a while starting with Mordheim.
The influx potential is going to vary. I thing there are just as many people that stopped because life came to a point that didn't allow much time for it. My group are all adults now. When I started over half where teenagers. I think somewhere WHFB lost appeal to the younger demographic and gave it to 40k. Did you see the same thing, being a 5th editioner too?
Matt Ratsinburger wrote: At the same time though I hear people who haven't been in the game for a while say "...I'll check it out. I might start back up."
Hate to burst your bubble but this happens literally every edition and most often the end result is "looks kinda cool, I'll maybe give it a try" and they never do. Now imagine if they needed new / rebased models as well?
It's actually surprised me how little interest there's been in WHFB given there's a new edition around the corner. I haven't really heard much chatter about it which I sort of expected.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's actually surprised me how little interest there's been in WHFB given there's a new edition around the corner. I haven't really heard much chatter about it which I sort of expected.
That's because there is NO reliable information on what it is going to be, and the forums have gone full Doom & Gloom on it. People are just holding their breath until some actual information 'leaks.'
Pirate: What happens if ninth is released and most of the rumours turn out to be true? Will your head explode like that guy in Scanners, or will you just melt while wailing "Oh, what a world, what a world!"
) until we know what the situation is regarding 9th.
