Icelord wrote: I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?
As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.
Icelord wrote: I have played 4 games with it. I am 4-0. Played against it 1 time and am 0-1.
I think it's too strong.
Everyone talks about obj sec. But who cares if your army is dead!
It's too strong.
The problem with Decurion is that it enhances the entire army that you put on the table with very strong abilities that are worth many points per model. However when you use Decurion, you don't actually pay any points for it. Decurion also doesn't give you any real significant disadvantages to counter this huge bonus in efficiency that you're getting from taking it.
The effect on the tabletop is that while you're playing with a 1500 point army, with the bonuses from Decurion, your army is probably actually WORTH somewhere around the 1800 mark. That number is just a quick guess and an abstraction, but you get my point. It's a very huge bump in your efficiency.
So what that means is most armies that you play against are going to play at a significant handicap.
Thus, it's pretty easy against most armies to win using Decurion.
If you can spam heavy artillery that might be a counter; wounding on 2s, negating the armour, and taking the RP back to 5+ when fighting a lot of big ground units sounds effective to me. The Decurion is also stuck spending a lot of points on things that can't hit planes, if you have a lot of flyers that can actually damage them (I've had trouble killing any models in the army with lots of S4/S5 shooting off of Vultures and Valkyries, but a Voidraven might have more luck) that might work.
AnomanderRake wrote: If you can spam heavy artillery that might be a counter; wounding on 2s, negating the armour, and taking the RP back to 5+ when fighting a lot of big ground units sounds effective to me. The Decurion is also stuck spending a lot of points on things that can't hit planes, if you have a lot of flyers that can actually damage them (I've had trouble killing any models in the army with lots of S4/S5 shooting off of Vultures and Valkyries, but a Voidraven might have more luck) that might work.
Actually the Decurion can EASILY out plane you. They can take a 130 points night scythe for ever single unit they take. Most of the Decurion lists I have seen have 3 scythes easy.
Is the Decurion too good? No. Is the Canoptek Harvest formation too good? Yes.
Even Wraiths on their own aren't that bad, it's their formation that makes them too good.
As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.
I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.
Vaktathi wrote: I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.
I can't wait for CSM to get their own Decurion.
I wonder what we'll get? An extra hit for Soul Blaze? Fear tests are taken on -1 LD?
Vaktathi wrote: I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.
The GK formation would be amazing if I didn't have to field over 2600 points of mostly bad units in order to use it. Even then it's bonuses aren't even close to decurion. Decurion just doesn't make sense - its kind of like but actually better than every unit in your army having endurance up at all times. Umm...I just have to ask - what idiot makes this stuff up?
There are 2 different 40k games to discuss on any topic:
In casual "basement/small lgs" play, where people actually run tactical marines, tactical terminators, dreadnoughts, and such? Yeah decurion rocks them out in its sleep, regardless of which subformations you threw in.
In competitive "flyrants riding on top of adlance knights skating on wave serpents piloted by sevrin loth and throwing riptides at you" play, decurion is still a tough contender, without needing any allies, which says a lot about how strong it is.
Vaktathi wrote: I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.
They're the first to have the new detachment that is made up entirely of various formations as a new way of army construction. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that point. And we'll see more armies use this system as time goes on.
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Well, from the games I played so far I can say its very tough to beat.
In particular, Warriors and Immortals benefit from them.
They are very hard to remove.
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Me too. I have nearly 5k of sivertide-toting madness shelved cause I find playing them boring.
I don't have any wraiths. I don't have any tomb blades.
New 'crons dex allows fluffy list.
It's made nearly everything viable.
It's internally balanced.
It's also too durable.
I don't like the RP=FNP, to me it dumbed down the uniqueness of the faction.
It lacks serious firepower for the allegedly most technologically advanced race.
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
Honestly If RP didnt work in like CC i think no one would have an issue. it just doesnt have an intuitive counter. ID kinda does but not really since it doesnt set it at 6 with no mods. D weapons are still not quite as widedspread so isnt really an option.
It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.
jy2 wrote: It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.
Yeah, the only problem with the Decurion (and Necron) is that it's too easy to build an army that doesn't require a lot of skill or strategy to be above-average, because of that durability. You might lose every game against great players, but against mediocre players, it's an easy edge. Really, it's the same problem as Wave Serpent -- it isn't that WS can't be tamed, it's just that a crappy player can play WS spam and get better than mediocre results.
Think of the armies as having a low floor in terms of effectiveness, but also a lower ceiling.
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Me too. I have nearly 5k of sivertide-toting madness shelved cause I find playing them boring.
I don't have any wraiths. I don't have any tomb blades.
New 'crons dex allows fluffy list.
It's made nearly everything viable.
It's internally balanced.
It's also too durable.
I don't like the RP=FNP, to me it dumbed down the uniqueness of the faction.
It lacks serious firepower for the allegedly most technologically advanced race.
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Too durable? By fluff Necrons should be that durable. And the fact that Multi-wound models now resemble their fluff (reanimating lost limbs and other damage, or Overlords knitting themselves back together). I think it was a win-win. Really strong on the table (Thats Necron's selling point, after all), and it simplified the rule. Also, Necrons have good firepower. Gauss is fantastic, and Tesla pumps wounds through like crazy. Plus, we're one of the 2 armies (I think it's 2) to have a S10 Lance. And also, a Primary weapon that's not apoc-only.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
Yeah, I loved all the discussions about RP turning into FNP, and everyone was one board with it.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
Honestly If RP didnt work in like CC i think no one would have an issue. it just doesnt have an intuitive counter. ID kinda does but not really since it doesnt set it at 6 with no mods. D weapons are still not quite as widedspread so isnt really an option.
Well, I'm sorry that Necrons were prone to being swept in the last codex, and that the only special rule the army had was ignorable. Not like it would make sense for all of them to be Stubborn or Fearless, so us being able to reanimate is our defense in CC.
As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.
Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.
jy2 wrote: It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.
I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.
Necrons have tons of mobility.
Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.
Alcibiades wrote: If the CH didn't have Reanimation Protocols as one of its options it would be much more sane.
Does anybody ever use Fleet or Shred instead?
Iv had Shred turned on me while i was locked in combat. its probably an ok idea to use if you are in a situation where you probably wont lose a single wraith.
jy2 wrote: It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.
I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.
Necrons have tons of mobility.
Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.
Agreed. I don't know why people always say Necrons lack firepower. From my experiences, I've almost tabled most opponents of mine. That has to say something.
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...
Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...
Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state
Did you play it with Decurion or CAD? I'm starting out Necrons but I hear the Decurion is too hard to deal with, so I usually bring a CAD and one or two formations to claim the bonuses for my friends
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...
Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state
Thats why the Combined Arms detachment still exists. It brings the army down to a lower power level overall, and you don't have crazy formation benefits.
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...
Why is my statement worthy of a face palm? You do understand that not everyone who plays is a hardcore must win at all cost competitive player, I personally find it unenjoyable when my army seems to be nigh unkillable. Add to that that it is no fun for my opponent, and I find no reason to play the army in its current state
I'm with you. I was going to start Crons but as soon as the info about how strong they are started coming through it really turned me off them.
The right way to do a deciuran army was what was done in the Codex: KDK book. In that book it isn't the formations that make the army, they just provide bonuses for units you may want to take.
As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.
Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.
Did I not make myself clear between my first and second posts?
YES, the Decurion adds an additional detachment bonus on top of the bonuses granted by (several, but not all) of the formations that make it up. I am not contesting that. My point is that the Necrons were the first to get this new system of army construction using a detachment constructed from formations and all the bonuses that go with it. HOWEVER, as new books come out, more armies will get the same thing. It could easily have been Eldar, Space Marines, or any other army to get it first and to get the same vitriol spewed at them for being the first to have the "new hotness."
Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.
I dunno, I personally see Eldar and Space Marines mainly getting their cheese nerfed, and having some army wide bonuses transferring to formations instead. So, if anything, Necrons will still be top dog after all is said and done.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Apparently I am still not making myself clear: It is only "too strong" because Necrons are the first to have it. This has ALWAYS been a problem with the way GW updates the armies, where one army gets something new and the others have to wait their turn to get it, too (just like with grav guns). There are more armies scheduled to receive an update this year, and I firmly believe that once more armies have the same system of army construction granting such bonuses, Necrons will no longer be seen as "too strong." The sky is not falling, people.
So, the next army that comes out will have a Decurion-style FoC that gives an army-wide 4+ FnP?
If the answer is "no", then you're missing peoples' point in this thread. The Decurion organization, which is likely something that every new codex is going to get is not the problem, it's the army-wide 4++ shenanigans, relentless shenanigans etc that are the problem.
It's entirely likely that the next codex that comes out is going to have a Decurion-style system, but the army-wide bonus is going to be like... fear, or soul-blaze or something equally useless. That is the problem. 7th edition Chaos Space Marines may have a Chaos-Decurion that's a series of formations within formations and all the bonuses that go with it, but if those bonuses are middling or crap then no one is going to care.
As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.
Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.
Did I not make myself clear between my first and second posts?
YES, the Decurion adds an additional detachment bonus on top of the bonuses granted by (several, but not all) of the formations that make it up. I am not contesting that. My point is that the Necrons were the first to get this new system of army construction using a detachment constructed from formations and all the bonuses that go with it. HOWEVER, as new books come out, more armies will get the same thing. It could easily have been Eldar, Space Marines, or any other army to get it first and to get the same vitriol spewed at them for being the first to have the "new hotness."
Remember when the GW defenders were saying they realized they made a mistake with eldar, and all the 7th codexes were much more internally and externally balanced? Yup, then Necrons came out. Further proof that GW doesn't playtest rules or give a feth about balance as long as you buy your codex and more plastic crack. The only problem is there are less people buying every month and things like decurion are only escalating that pace. For every necron player that goes out and buys the codex and stuff to complete their decurion, there will be 3 people selling their ork, DE or BA army on ebay because they're tired of this gak.
Toofast wrote: Remember when the GW defenders were saying they realized they made a mistake with eldar, and all the 7th codexes were much more internally and externally balanced? Yup, then Necrons came out. Further proof that GW doesn't playtest rules or give a feth about balance as long as you buy your codex and more plastic crack. The only problem is there are less people buying every month and things like decurion are only escalating that pace. For every necron player that goes out and buys the codex and stuff to complete their decurion, there will be 3 people selling their ork, DE or BA army on ebay because they're tired of this gak.
Or, people could just not play with the Decurion. And Orks aren't bad, niether are BA. I actually haven't seen a BA player at my shop lose yet.
So your answer to GW putting out something that's OP is for people playing that army to voluntarily handicap themselves? That's so full of fail I don't even know what to say in response. Your shop must not be a good indicator of overall power level then. Orks and BA are in the bottom 4 of win % in 7th edition tournaments as tracked by ToF. They were in the bottom 3 at adepticon which plays closer to RAW than any other tournament I'm aware of.
Toofast wrote: So your answer to GW putting out something that's OP is for people playing that army to voluntarily handicap themselves? That's so full of fail I don't even know what to say in response. Your shop must not be a good indicator of overall power level then. Orks and BA are in the bottom 4 of win % in 7th edition tournaments as tracked by ToF. They were in the bottom 3 at adepticon which plays closer to RAW than any other tournament I'm aware of.
Well, I personally don't give a rats butt about tournament ratings, because 40k is an unbalanced game, and trying to play competitively really isn't going to accomplish much. Also, Necrons aren't the most OP thing out there. You still have Draigostar, Adlance, Centstar, and Serpent spam (granted that might change here soon). Necrons are nowhere near as cheesy as that. And I've lost 2 out of 12 games so far with Decurion (though, 1 game my friend made a huge mistake on how the Grimoire worked, so I probably would've won), and I've tied once (that was because of Obj Sec). Thats mainly because people don't know how to deal with them yet, seeing as I'm pretty much the only Necron player at my store. If it seriously gets to the point where I always win and never lose, I'll probably gimp myself by using a CAD, to make it fair. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing my favorite army. It's like my Eldar friend who acknowledges Serpents are OP. He rarely fields them, and if he does he puts bright lances on them.
Decurion is far from unbeatable, though trying to table your opponent isn't going to get you anywhere. Objectives win the game.
my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that
Commissar41.0 wrote: my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that
They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.
Commissar41.0 wrote: my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that
They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.
Bloodcrushers compared to Wraiths...Really? Bloodcrushers don't even do enough damage to make them worth it, their durability is terrible, and they aren't worth it at all.
I'm honestly starting to think you are really trying hard to deflect for how good the Decurion is.
Commissar41.0 wrote: my only real problem is the Wraiths...even is the last codex they were one of the best CC units in the game now they have +1 toughness still have a 3++ and now can have reanimation protocols...i call Bos taurus fecal matter on that
They don't have the most amazing damage output. If I could have the damage output from TWC or Bloodcrushers, I'd take that anyday. All Wraiths have is durability, and if they have the 4++ RP, shoot the Spyder first. There you go.
Bloodcrushers compared to Wraiths...Really?
Not for survivability, mind you, but for S6 AP3 on the charge. Wraiths are WS4, with no AP base. You might be lucky to get a rend or two, but typically they just tarpit things.
Blacksails wrote: A few years ago, army wide 4+++ would have been laughed at for its absurdity.
And yet here we are. Then again, same goes for rerolling a 2++, I guess.
Call me old fashioned, but an ability that powerful should either cost a lot of points, or come with some seriously heavy drawbacks.
I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.
I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.
I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.
Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.
Icelord wrote: Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.
I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.
I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.
Well... there's only two 2++ save items that I can think of off the top of my head, so there may be more. But these two that I can think of are really not anything special;
1) The DE Shadowfield; if you fail the 2++, the Shadowfield is "destroyed", and so cannot be used after that. Given that it's only available for a T3 dude... it's also a good chance that the dude will be dead anyways.
2) The SM "Armor Indomitus" relic; this item provides a once per game 2++. While it does have some other benefits (2+ armor, 6++, Relentless), it's also ridiculously expensive. Most of the reason to take the Armor Indomitus is actually to combine Relentless with the Primarch's Wrath relic (a Salvo 3/5 bolter).
So there might be others that actually do break things, but these two are far from broken.
I'm still a firm believer that a 2++ save, especially a rerollable one, should not exist in the game. Yet, this is coming from the Necron player, so take that as you will.
I don't know if you'll find anyone that can defend a straight 2++ (that old Dark Eldar thing that failed was...acceptable-ish), let alone a rerollable one.
Well... there's only two 2++ save items that I can think of off the top of my head, so there may be more. But these two that I can think of are really not anything special;
1) The DE Shadowfield; if you fail the 2++, the Shadowfield is "destroyed", and so cannot be used after that. Given that it's only available for a T3 dude... it's also a good chance that the dude will be dead anyways.
2) The SM "Armor Indomitus" relic; this item provides a once per game 2++. While it does have some other benefits (2+ armor, 6++, Relentless), it's also ridiculously expensive. Most of the reason to take the Armor Indomitus is actually to combine Relentless with the Primarch's Wrath relic (a Salvo 3/5 bolter).
So there might be others that actually do break things, but these two are far from broken.
2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
There's a ton of ways to get 2+ cover (sometimes with rerolls) as well, which can often be nearly as powerful, especially on units that are largely immune to most cover-ignoring weapons (e.g. Nurgle daemonprince with Jink).
The idea of a 2+ invul at all just a couple of years ago was the stuff of hyperbole short of the DE Shadowfield (which was on a T3 characters and stopped working after it failed) and a rerollable 2++ was literally only found in 4chan exaggeration. The fact that 2+ covers and 2+ invuls are so common now is a major issue.
Anything shrouded in a ruin has a 2+ cover, but almost every army has some way to deny cover saves. Remind me which army can deny invuln saves. Oh that's right, none of them. Perils of the warp is the only thing that denies an invuln which relies on your opponent throwing too many dice at powers and being really unlucky to even get 1 or 2 wounds from it. A squad of screamers has 24 wounds and a re rollable 2++. My friend plays this list and playing it RAW is the most broken thing I've ever seen, including lucky MTG turn 2 wins. The opponent essentially removes models or gets his important models tar pitted by a unit that requires 864 wounds to kill. I tried serpent spam and grav star, another guy tried farsight bomb with triptide, another tried 5 Flyrant, another tried ad lance, nothing even came close to beating that list. On turn 1 they can be on nearly every objective on the table, bubble wrapping them so even with obsec you have to kill 2 or 3 to get close enough to take the objective. Then you have kairos flying around bombing you with 17 spells a turn giving zero feths. This is the only thing that can take down a skilled player with a properly built decurion army. From there it's basically a fight for third between all the armies that still get roflstomped by 2++ re rollable and decurion.
Toofast wrote: Anything shrouded in a ruin has a 2+ cover, but almost every army has some way to deny cover saves. Remind me which army can deny invuln saves. Oh that's right, none of them. Perils of the warp is the only thing that denies an invuln which relies on your opponent throwing too many dice at powers and being really unlucky to even get 1 or 2 wounds from it. A squad of screamers has 24 wounds and a re rollable 2++. My friend plays this list and playing it RAW is the most broken thing I've ever seen, including lucky MTG turn 2 wins. The opponent essentially removes models or gets his important models tar pitted by a unit that requires 864 wounds to kill. I tried serpent spam and grav star, another guy tried farsight bomb with triptide, another tried 5 Flyrant, another tried ad lance, nothing even came close to beating that list. On turn 1 they can be on nearly every objective on the table, bubble wrapping them so even with obsec you have to kill 2 or 3 to get close enough to take the objective. Then you have kairos flying around bombing you with 17 spells a turn giving zero feths. This is the only thing that can take down a skilled player with a properly built decurion army. From there it's basically a fight for third between all the armies that still get roflstomped by 2++ re rollable and decurion.
I mean, you don't need to resort to cheese to win against Decurion. Play to objectives, shoot the high priority targets first.
The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.
Toofast wrote: The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.
I mean, I appreciate you giving Necrons that much credit and saying that have that kind of firepower, but realistically, I haven't tabled my opponent except, maybe, twice? And it was by turn 6?
Toofast wrote: The funny thing about objectives is that if your unit has been totally wiped, they can no longer contest or control them. I love when people say "play to the objective" as a way to beat any army. If you're tabled on turn 4, you can be up 837 to 0 on objective points, you still lose.
Yep. The only work around I've seen to these situations is that a LGS tourney I played in took out that rule, but if you were tabled, your opponent had one more turn to score objectives. This way you could get tabled, but still win by playing to objectives.
Besides, 40k is all about survivability. That's the advantage of bike SM armies
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
I agree with changing Sanctuary, though a new ruleset is awhile away, and thus won't happen for a long time. And they should just change Invulns to cap at at 3++ in general. That would fix things.
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.
This isn't taking into consideration that, if there was something that hard to kill, more times than not, you can ignore/tarpit them and focus on killing other things. Thats what I do to Riptides. I don't have enough high strength AP2 to worry about them, so I ignore them and kill everything else.
2 squads of 8 screamers each are kind of difficult to just ignore if the opponent uses them to bubble wrap key objectives. Tarpit only works if they can kill you in a round of combat, which they can when they trade their attacks for one attack each at AP2. Also you can't ignore them because they can move 24", then charge your most important unit the next turn.
Toofast wrote: 2 squads of 8 screamers each are kind of difficult to just ignore if the opponent uses them to bubble wrap key objectives. Tarpit only works if they can kill you in a round of combat, which they can when they trade their attacks for one attack each at AP2. Also you can't ignore them because they can move 24", then charge your most important unit the next turn.
Well, thankfully Daemons should have an update soon. Plus, it's harder to get the ridiculous psychic powers off on them now. But anyway, this thread is about countering the Decurion, not Daemons.
koooaei wrote: Tone down Wraiths and it's a good dex. All they need is either go back to t4 or their invul to ACTUALLY MEET their wargear. Hence, 4++. Or both.
They don't have Phase Shifters anymore though. So, technically, their invuln isn't not matching their wargear.
Screamer star is going to have a bad time if wraiths with RP catch up to them. I didn't think it was even considered a particularly good army since 7th.
You want to beat up on a Decurion? Take some Whirlwinds and Heavy Bolters and laugh as they only ignore half your attacks instead of a quarter of them, and you have far more attacks than you've ever thrown before.
Tekron wrote: Screamer star is going to have a bad time if wraiths with RP catch up to them. I didn't think it was even considered a particularly good army since 7th.
It was good enough for top 8 at LVO and 1st at adepticon this year...
jy2 wrote: It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.
I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.
Necrons have tons of mobility.
Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.
Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:
Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)
Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.
Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:
Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)
Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.
Aaaaand this is why I don't even bother with the competitive setting. Adlance is stupid, and Invisible Deathstars shouldn't be a thing, but GW thought that would be a nice touch to the game. Also, why the hell would US tournaments rule that Gauss does nothing to Void Shields? That just doesn't even make sense, and gimps Necrons as a whole. That is how we deal with armor, after all. The point is, Necrons don't have cheese (Wraithspam isn't as viable as it used to be, the Decurion is restrictive, and we lack Psychic powers), and therefor will never completely dominate the tournament scene, where cheese and cheap exploitations is all that wins games. So why bother comparing Necrons, or any single army in itself (since it's mostly armies allied with other things, such as knights), to the competitive setting? Necrons alone have the most internal balance, and in a casual setting, or even a lower, friendly tournament scene, are very strong, if not too strong.
But, for the sake or argument, lets take a look at some of the things you listed, just for sheer fun.
Massed Flyrants/FMC daemons - Flyrants chuck out S6 shooting, but thats about it. Bring 2-3 Night Scythes and you shouldn't have much of an issue, as your infantry probably won't take too much damage over the course of the game from it. Also, Daemons typically do, what, fly around and cast psychic powers? Ignore them.
Wraithknights - Everything in our book can now hurt it. Literally. And the Destroyer Cult would shred through them.
Wave Serpents - They will do what, exactly, to Wraiths? Not a lot, especially is someone is bringing a ton of Tomb Blades with those Wraiths.
2+ save units - Heavy Destroyers are much more common now. Also, Riptides aren't a threat, they are completely ignorable. And broadsides aren't too difficult to get to run off the board.
Invisible Deathstars - Trying to figure out what Necrons would do against this is pointless, as what would anything do to this. This power should not exist in the game.
Daemon Summoning - From what I've seen, not really a huge threat in general. Are people still using this as a primary list idea in tournaments?
2+ Cover - Tomb Blades
Massed Bikers - Shoot them. Or Wraiths. Take your pick.
Another Decurion - I have to admit, that would be tough. I'm not sure how you'd deal with that. Guess it depends on who brought what.
Adlance Knights - Necrons have the tools to deal with these, as broken as it is. Would it be easy? Probably not. But certainly possible. Flank them and avoid shields. Boom.
Void Shields - Again, thats slowed that Gauss doesn't hurt it. I would just not even participate in a tournament if that was the case.
Fast Deathstars - TWC? Umm, Wraiths. I keep saying Wraiths because thats what people typically bring in competitive lists, but yes. Wraiths.
Shooty Deathstars - Necrons have plenty of tools for these, you just wouldn't see them in a competitive setting. That being said, Wraiths.
So, you might not think they're the most competitive, but they have answers to most, if not all of the things you listed. And once Eldar and Space Marines get toned down (yes, I'm that confident) we'll see a lot less of the stuff on that list.
Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)
Wraiths? They're pretty fast to get there, pretty durable to ignore what they can't touch and camp on objectives or tarpit what you don't want to get running around (invis stars without H&R or GoI), pretty killy to deal with the majority of what they might face and pretty cheap to bring them en masse yet have a place for other stuff.
But i see what you mean. The book has lots of toug units, yet it can get problematic to deal with certain things considered cheeze. And those are quite common in tournaments.
Mythra wrote: I'll tell you what is OP - Orikan w/ wraiths. 3++, 5 Tou, rerolling 1s on saves, 2 W each w/ the Spider formation giving them feel no pain.
I took several 10 StrAP 1 blasts and didn't lose a wraith.
Why wraiths instead of lichguards?
Lichguards also get 5T 3++ and RP, but more attacks at AP3. They cost nearly than half harvest wraith, so you get the same number of wounds, but without the risk of loosing the RP.
The real plus of the wraiths is their tremendous mobility, but with Orikan is inside the unit...
Icelord wrote: Khorne deamon kin is not decurion. It's not about how the armies are constructed people! Read the posts! It's about the free ability of 4+ ignore every wound. It's busted.
Not against instant death. It'll become a 5+.
OMG
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Furyou Miko wrote: You want to beat up on a Decurion? Take some Whirlwinds and Heavy Bolters and laugh as they only ignore half your attacks instead of a quarter of them, and you have far more attacks than you've ever thrown before.
Yeah heavy bolters do real good against necrons. Land speeders with HB and typhoon missile is great. Thunder fire cannon also great. Vindicators - not a bad idea ether. Still though, decrion still gets saves against these things...pretty insane.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "if someone is asking if it's too powerful, then it likely is."
I don't see how anyone can defend an army of 4+ feel no pain saves that can't be negated at all. Let alone when that army has relentless (on everything) and weapons that on a roll of 6 can become insanely better (on more or less everything).
Necrons in my mind are top dog in the game, bar none.
Its all down to survival, you can't reliably lost them, therefore why worry about being in dangerous situations.
Average table size 6'x4' average army size 1500-1850.
Mostly an army is going to be able to cover the entire table over 5 turns.
how exactly are you going to play to objectives?
I play against it nearly every week, still to beat it... Because crons are slow i get alot of draws in objective games. imo its very very good, will take even the best lists close and can often come out on top! Kicks my poor CSM into the ground though! :(
Alcibiades wrote: Isn't that what Carnival of Pain is, the Dark Eldar Coven one?
How do that, the Decurion, and the Khorne one compare to each other? Has anybody tried running them against each other?
The DE one is nice, lots and lots of benefits. The problem is it buffs a niche fluffy army that isnt very good to start with. It also comes out costing over 2500 points IIRC.
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
I have a better idea. GW should playtest their rules and never publish something that allows a model to have a 1/36 chance of being wounded. Oh wait, that will never happen.
That doesn't even require play testing - just requires basic math skills.
Boniface wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "if someone is asking if it's too powerful, then it likely is."
I don't see how anyone can defend an army of 4+ feel no pain saves that can't be negated at all. Let alone when that army has relentless (on everything) and weapons that on a roll of 6 can become insanely better (on more or less everything).
Necrons in my mind are top dog in the game, bar none.
Its all down to survival, you can't reliably lost them, therefore why worry about being in dangerous situations.
Average table size 6'x4' average army size 1500-1850.
Mostly an army is going to be able to cover the entire table over 5 turns.
how exactly are you going to play to objectives?
Just use more bullets instead of better bullets. Honestly, forcing people to do that is why this codex was written how it is.
Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
The decurion changes your 5+ FNP into a 4+ FNP, that's only a 1/6 increase in survivability that's not game breaking. For example;
12 bolter shots vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.33 Dead, Decurion 1 Dead
The difference isn't even a model vs standard 5 marines rapid firing with a rhino. It would take 36 bolter shots to really see a difference, which is a lot of shots and the difference is 1 13pt model.
3 Missiles vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.388 Dead, Decurion 1.11 Dead
Again a minor increase in damage between the two. To see a difference you'd need to fire about 10 missiles to have a noticeable difference in the durability which again would only be 1 model/1 wound.
The problem people are having is not with the decurion but rather they are having issues with the necrons survivability in general. I would argue that all these people complaining about losing to a decurion would lose to the same people running a CAD instead. Decurion is nice and allows for more fluffy list building but it isn't overpowered. You could argue the necron codex is overpowered but it's not the decurion that is the problem people are having(it's what people complain about but that just people blaming the new thing). People keep thinking necrons should be as "squishy" as they were last edition and then they play people running a decurion and lose to a very durable army and think that it must be because of the decurion but really it's just that FNP makes the army a whole lot tougher to kill than they were last edition not the decurion.
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
The decurion changes your 5+ FNP into a 4+ FNP, that's only a 1/6 increase in suitability that's not game breaking. For example;
12 bolter shots vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.33 Dead, Decurion 1 Dead
The difference isn't even a model vs standard 5 marines rapid firing with a rhino. It would take 36 bolter shots to really see a difference, which is a lot of shots and the difference is 1 13pt model.
3 Missiles vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.388 Dead, Decurion 1.11 Dead
Again a minor increase in damage between the two. To see a difference you'd need to fire about 10 missiles to have a noticeable difference in the durability which again would only be 1 model/1 wound.
The problem people are having is not with the decurion but rather they are having issues with the necrons survivability in general. I would argue that all these people complaining about losing to a decurion would lose to the same people running a CAD instead. Decurion is nice and allows for more fluffy list building but it isn't overpowered. You could argue the necron codex is overpowered but it's not the decurion that is the problem people are having(it's what people complain about but that just people blaming the new thing). People keep thinking necrons should be as "squishy" as they were last edition and then they play people running a decurion and lose to a very durable army and think that it must be because of the decurion but really it's just that FNP makes the army a whole lot tougher to kill than they were last edition not the decurion.
Hmm. I tend to look at FNP from the opposite direction. If I have a 5+ FNP, that means for every 6 models lost, I get 2 back. If I have a 4+ FNP, for every 6 models I lose, I get 3 back. Bigger picture: If I lose 30 models with a 5+ FNP, I get back 10 during the course of a game, and another 1.67 models back from those 10.
If I have a 4+ FNP with 21 models, I get 10 back. I'm using 10 to show that over the course of a game, I'm basically getting back an entire squad of guys. This was huge for Blood Angels Death Company 6th Ed codex where the average cost of a Space Marine was about 23 points. Having 30 of these guys costing about 700 points, and then getting back 230 points meant I was playing with a "Free Squad" of Death Company in a game.
Mathematically, going from 5+ to 4+ FNP doesn't look like much, until you start applying it on a more macro scale of your army.
So look at it this way: If your Decurion has at least 21 models with 4+ FNP, you will "get back" 10 of those models. That's like an extra squad of models during a game. Another way of looking at it, for every 21 models I kill, I have to kill 10 of them again, and then I have to kill another one again.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
MSS was definitely not an issue. It was a giant "shoot me from range" sign.
All I cared about was nerfing Wraiths' 3++ to a 4++ at best. We all know how that went. The rest of the previous codex was not bad.
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
The decurion changes your 5+ FNP into a 4+ FNP, that's only a 1/6 increase in suitability that's not game breaking. For example;
12 bolter shots vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.33 Dead, Decurion 1 Dead
The difference isn't even a model vs standard 5 marines rapid firing with a rhino. It would take 36 bolter shots to really see a difference, which is a lot of shots and the difference is 1 13pt model.
3 Missiles vs Warriors: Non-Decurion 1.388 Dead, Decurion 1.11 Dead
Again a minor increase in damage between the two. To see a difference you'd need to fire about 10 missiles to have a noticeable difference in the durability which again would only be 1 model/1 wound.
The problem people are having is not with the decurion but rather they are having issues with the necrons survivability in general. I would argue that all these people complaining about losing to a decurion would lose to the same people running a CAD instead. Decurion is nice and allows for more fluffy list building but it isn't overpowered. You could argue the necron codex is overpowered but it's not the decurion that is the problem people are having(it's what people complain about but that just people blaming the new thing). People keep thinking necrons should be as "squishy" as they were last edition and then they play people running a decurion and lose to a very durable army and think that it must be because of the decurion but really it's just that FNP makes the army a whole lot tougher to kill than they were last edition not the decurion.
Hmm. I tend to look at FNP from the opposite direction. If I have a 5+ FNP, that means for every 6 models lost, I get 2 back. If I have a 4+ FNP, for every 6 models I lose, I get 3 back. Bigger picture: If I lose 30 models with a 5+ FNP, I get back 10 during the course of a game, and another 1.67 models back from those 10.
If I have a 4+ FNP with 21 models, I get 10 back. I'm using 10 to show that over the course of a game, I'm basically getting back an entire squad of guys. This was huge for Blood Angels Death Company 6th Ed codex where the average cost of a Space Marine was about 23 points. Having 30 of these guys costing about 700 points, and then getting back 230 points meant I was playing with a "Free Squad" of Death Company in a game.
Mathematically, going from 5+ to 4+ FNP doesn't look like much, until you start applying it on a more macro scale of your army.
So look at it this way: If your Decurion has at least 21 models with 4+ FNP, you will "get back" 10 of those models. That's like an extra squad of models during a game. Another way of looking at it, for every 21 models I kill, I have to kill 10 of them again, and then I have to kill another one again.
It's not quite as good as you say, because you don't ever use FNP when you make your armor save.
At least now when you kill a Necron, you know its gone for the rest game. No more bouncing back up at the end of a phase, and no more old-school Ever Living counters with Lords, Overlords, and Crypteks that survive multiple deaths. I swear one game my DLord got killed 4 times in a 6 round game and just kept on reanimating with EL. The point here is that being removed from play with EL used to shield you from more wounds that your EL model would otherwise encounter, forcing 1 EL-RP rather than 1 RP per killing Wound.
Hmm. I tend to look at FNP from the opposite direction. If I have a 5+ FNP, that means for every 6 models lost, I get 2 back. If I have a 4+ FNP, for every 6 models I lose, I get 3 back. Bigger picture: If I lose 30 models with a 5+ FNP, I get back 10 during the course of a game, and another 1.67 models back from those 10.
If I have a 4+ FNP with 21 models, I get 10 back. I'm using 10 to show that over the course of a game, I'm basically getting back an entire squad of guys. This was huge for Blood Angels Death Company 6th Ed codex where the average cost of a Space Marine was about 23 points. Having 30 of these guys costing about 700 points, and then getting back 230 points meant I was playing with a "Free Squad" of Death Company in a game.
Mathematically, going from 5+ to 4+ FNP doesn't look like much, until you start applying it on a more macro scale of your army.
So look at it this way: If your Decurion has at least 21 models with 4+ FNP, you will "get back" 10 of those models. That's like an extra squad of models during a game. Another way of looking at it, for every 21 models I kill, I have to kill 10 of them again, and then I have to kill another one again.
Fair enough but that's looking at it from a perspective that your entire army needs to make those FNP saves which rarely occurs. I honestly don't see many people getting tabled these days and the losing player is more likely to lose 50-75% of their army rather than getting tabled. So weighing FNP like you are only works in a if I'm tabled scenario this buff would save 10 models.
The buff is so small that in the course of a turn it's unlikely to make a large difference for that turn so it won't really change how it's played based on the 1 less wound the unit suffered.
Basically, your whole army doesn't need the FNP upgrade because there will be units in your army that don't even have to make a FNP save, since their armour save will be enough or they just aren't attacked. Can't assume going into battle that you'll be tabled, so the death company example only works if you plan on losing the whole squad, but there will be games where you don't so the "free" unit you get isn't as great as you thought. This works doubly for decurion crons since they are only receiving an increase of 1/6 over CAD crons and that's only when they fail their armour save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jasper76 wrote: At least now when you kill a Necron, you know its gone for the rest game. No more bouncing back up at the end of a phase, and no more old-school Ever Living counters with Lords, Overlords, and Crypteks that survive multiple deaths. I swear one game my DLord got killed 4 times in a 6 round game and just kept on reanimating with EL. The point here is that being removed from play with EL used to shield you from more wounds that your EL model would otherwise encounter, forcing 1 EL-RP rather than 1 RP per killing Wound.
Can Necron opponents find some comfort in that?
If you want to go real old school, back in 3rd necrons had 4+ WBB (which was basically RP except on a 4+ and some other limitations) and if you failed that you could recycle them in a monolith to re-roll the failed rolls.
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
Oh no, you have to take other powerful unkillable units instead of just spamming Wraiths and being done with it?
Forced unit choices are not "gimping" anything unless those units suck, eg Possessed for Daemonkin, Tac squads for CAD marines, etc. If you don't want to field Tomb Blades, then don't play Decurion and everyone will be happy.
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
Oh no, you have to take other powerful unkillable units instead of just spamming Wraiths and being done with it?
Forced unit choices are not "gimping" anything unless those units suck, eg Possessed for Daemonkin, Tac squads for CAD marines, etc. If you don't want to field Tomb Blades, then don't play Decurion and everyone will be happy.
Ok but if you can just make a stronger list with the CAD then the decurion is gimped in comparison. This isn't about exterior balance in the game which is all over the place it's about the decurion which is gimped vs the CAD due the choices you are forced to make. For instance the CAD you have to take 2 troops which get Objective secured, in the decurion you have to take 3 troops and they don't get objective secured. That is a tax, furthermore you are forced to take auxiliaries from the book which come with their own taxes. For instance the destroyer cult you have to take destroyer lord(which isn't a terrible unit but you won't see anyone fielding one outside of the destroyer cult so it's a tax), in the Canoptek harvest you have to take a unit of scarabs which are a tax(sure they have uses but in a decurion it is really difficult to run a farm without allying in a CAD and the farm is the only spot scarabs are competitive in), in the deathbringer flight you have to take 2 which eats up your points quickly, in the judicator the synergy is poor between the stalker and praets so you need to take another formation like the destroyer cult to make proper use of the stalker, the annhilation nexus requires you to take 2 heavily nerfed annihilation barges which will rarely see play in a CAD since you can just get a night scythe for 10pts more which is just better.
My point is that the decurion is gimped in comparison to the CAD for a list building scenario(forcing you to take more troops even though more troops do gak in comparison to any other unit once you remove objective secured from them) not whether or not you can still make a good list with a decurion which you can, you can just make a better one using a CAD.
Punisher wrote: The decurion changes your 5+ FNP into a 4+ FNP, that's only a 1/6 increase in suitability that's not game breaking.
Mathematically, going from 5+ to 4+ FNP doesn't look like much, until you start applying it on a more macro scale of your army.
The jump from 5+ to 4+ is actually a large one. It represents a 50% higher chance of saving, or thinking of it another way it's 25% less dead models (what previously would have killed 4 now only kills 3). It's less useful on stuff that would have caused ID, as that's only a 20% decrease in the number of kills, but still enough to be significant IMO.
Of course I have no idea how good decurion is as I haven't played against one, I simply came to offer a different perspective on the maths of it
jasper76 wrote: At least now when you kill a Necron, you know its gone for the rest game. No more bouncing back up at the end of a phase, and no more old-school Ever Living counters with Lords, Overlords, and Crypteks that survive multiple deaths. I swear one game my DLord got killed 4 times in a 6 round game and just kept on reanimating with EL. The point here is that being removed from play with EL used to shield you from more wounds that your EL model would otherwise encounter, forcing 1 EL-RP rather than 1 RP per killing Wound.
Can Necron opponents find some comfort in that?
Probably not. The book is just too good compared to the eggs laid for the BA and Orks.
Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
In my experience the Decurion's +1 RP isn't what up the Necron power level, it's the added effect of formation rules that can make it ridiculous. Not like you can't take them outside of a Decurion anyway. Add the fact that the Decurion doesn't really do anything to gimp the collection for most Necron players or the way they field models just makes the whole army that much more dangerous.
That being said, I have never used the harvest formation (not that I can't).
What made Necron so much harder to kill overall was the change to how RP works. I've had battles that using the old codex would of wiped out units while now I only lose a few models. (which I then replaced thanks of Ghost Arks)
Punisher wrote: The decurion changes your 5+ FNP into a 4+ FNP, that's only a 1/6 increase in suitability that's not game breaking.
Mathematically, going from 5+ to 4+ FNP doesn't look like much, until you start applying it on a more macro scale of your army.
The jump from 5+ to 4+ is actually a large one. It represents a 50% higher chance of saving, or thinking of it another way it's 25% less dead models (what previously would have killed 4 now only kills 3). It's less useful on stuff that would have caused ID, as that's only a 20% decrease in the number of kills, but still enough to be significant IMO.
Of course I have no idea how good decurion is as I haven't played against one, I simply came to offer a different perspective on the maths of it
yes each save below the last gets better and better.
ignoring AP, a 2+ save is twice as good as a 3+ save. In the same way as a 3+ save is twice as good as a 5+ save.
6+ from nothing is really small
5+ from 6+ is something
4+ from 5+ is rather good
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
Oh no, you have to take other powerful unkillable units instead of just spamming Wraiths and being done with it?
Forced unit choices are not "gimping" anything unless those units suck, eg Possessed for Daemonkin, Tac squads for CAD marines, etc. If you don't want to field Tomb Blades, then don't play Decurion and everyone will be happy.
Ok but if you can just make a stronger list with the CAD then the decurion is gimped in comparison. This isn't about exterior balance in the game which is all over the place it's about the decurion which is gimped vs the CAD due the choices you are forced to make. For instance the CAD you have to take 2 troops which get Objective secured, in the decurion you have to take 3 troops and they don't get objective secured. That is a tax, furthermore you are forced to take auxiliaries from the book which come with their own taxes. For instance the destroyer cult you have to take destroyer lord(which isn't a terrible unit but you won't see anyone fielding one outside of the destroyer cult so it's a tax), in the Canoptek harvest you have to take a unit of scarabs which are a tax(sure they have uses but in a decurion it is really difficult to run a farm without allying in a CAD and the farm is the only spot scarabs are competitive in), in the deathbringer flight you have to take 2 which eats up your points quickly, in the judicator the synergy is poor between the stalker and praets so you need to take another formation like the destroyer cult to make proper use of the stalker, the annhilation nexus requires you to take 2 heavily nerfed annihilation barges which will rarely see play in a CAD since you can just get a night scythe for 10pts more which is just better.
My point is that the decurion is gimped in comparison to the CAD for a list building scenario(forcing you to take more troops even though more troops do gak in comparison to any other unit once you remove objective secured from them) not whether or not you can still make a good list with a decurion which you can, you can just make a better one using a CAD.
Gonna wade into this mess and point a few things out.
First, basic math mistake: a save going from 5+ to 4+ isn't a 1/6 increase in survivability, it's a 50% increase. You used to make 2 out of 6 of the RP saves you tried, now you make 3 out of 6, which is 50% more. It's nothing to sneeze at when it's applied to your entire army at a low cost.
Second, that cost (being forced to take certain units) isn't as high as you're making it out to be in most cases. Maybe there are more overpowered builds that are possible, but none of the units you're forced to take in the Decurion are bad, the formation overall is still fairly flexible, and the benefits certainly seem worth it. Substantial army-wide buffs to durability are more powerful than getting Objective Secured on a few units (which I hear is pretty overrated anyway).
Third, even if it is possible to make slightly better lists by min-maxing a CAD, the biggest issue with the decurion is it seems to give people an easy cookbook to follow to build a very strong list with some minor variations. The decurion certainly doesn't seem "gimped" given the win/loss records people have been posting. You're not gimping yourself at all if using the decurion means easily putting together a list that can beat anything but a min-maxed list; in most people's gaming groups that's a recipe for getting the decurion banned.
Punisher wrote: Ok so the decurion isn't as great as everyone is trying to say. First off your lists are gimped by having to take certain units and not being able to spam the armies power units like you can in a CAD.
Oh no, you have to take other powerful unkillable units instead of just spamming Wraiths and being done with it?
Forced unit choices are not "gimping" anything unless those units suck, eg Possessed for Daemonkin, Tac squads for CAD marines, etc. If you don't want to field Tomb Blades, then don't play Decurion and everyone will be happy.
Ok but if you can just make a stronger list with the CAD then the decurion is gimped in comparison. This isn't about exterior balance in the game which is all over the place it's about the decurion which is gimped vs the CAD due the choices you are forced to make. For instance the CAD you have to take 2 troops which get Objective secured, in the decurion you have to take 3 troops and they don't get objective secured. That is a tax, furthermore you are forced to take auxiliaries from the book which come with their own taxes. For instance the destroyer cult you have to take destroyer lord(which isn't a terrible unit but you won't see anyone fielding one outside of the destroyer cult so it's a tax), in the Canoptek harvest you have to take a unit of scarabs which are a tax(sure they have uses but in a decurion it is really difficult to run a farm without allying in a CAD and the farm is the only spot scarabs are competitive in), in the deathbringer flight you have to take 2 which eats up your points quickly, in the judicator the synergy is poor between the stalker and praets so you need to take another formation like the destroyer cult to make proper use of the stalker, the annhilation nexus requires you to take 2 heavily nerfed annihilation barges which will rarely see play in a CAD since you can just get a night scythe for 10pts more which is just better.
My point is that the decurion is gimped in comparison to the CAD for a list building scenario(forcing you to take more troops even though more troops do gak in comparison to any other unit once you remove objective secured from them) not whether or not you can still make a good list with a decurion which you can, you can just make a better one using a CAD.
Gonna wade into this mess and point a few things out.
First, basic math mistake: a save going from 5+ to 4+ isn't a 1/6 increase in survivability, it's a 50% increase. You used to make 2 out of 6 of the RP saves you tried, now you make 3 out of 6, which is 50% more. It's nothing to sneeze at when it's applied to your entire army at a low cost.
Second, that cost (being forced to take certain units) isn't as high as you're making it out to be in most cases. Maybe there are more overpowered builds that are possible, but none of the units you're forced to take in the Decurion are bad, the formation overall is still fairly flexible, and the benefits certainly seem worth it. Substantial army-wide buffs to durability are more powerful than getting Objective Secured on a few units (which I hear is pretty overrated anyway).
Third, even if it is possible to make slightly better lists by min-maxing a CAD, the biggest issue with the decurion is it seems to give people an easy cookbook to follow to build a very strong list with some minor variations. The decurion certainly doesn't seem "gimped" given the win/loss records people have been posting. You're not gimping yourself at all if using the decurion means easily putting together a list that can beat anything but a min-maxed list; in most people's gaming groups that's a recipe for getting the decurion banned.
Ok so I see what your saying with the 5+ to a 4+ but when you roll 5/6 of the options you roll have the same result; 1,2,3 would fail regardless and 5 or 6 pass regardless the only difference is a 4 which is a 1/6 increase.
To each their own whether you think certain units are taxing or not. But the stronger lists are definitely built using a CAD, not saying decurion lists are bad but in a discussion about "Is decurion too good?" when lists made without the decurion are stronger than with a decurion then it's necrons that are too good not the decurion. Plus objective secured does make a difference when you don't have it compared to your opponent. It's lack also makes the warriors and immortals a tax on the list since they don't provide anything that you can't get better in another unit choice.
The win-loss record is hard to go by since the new necron codex has a ridiculous win-rate in general decurion or not. It's just regular players haven't adopted to the new codex and aren't playing the mission and instead trying to table the most difficult army in the game to table. As for easy to make competitive lists, ok but I am ok with "good" lists being easy to make since these "good" lists are at least fluffy and not the min-maxing abominations that you usually see outside of very friendly games.
Rapier quad bolters are mathmatically more efficient for their points against wraiths than anything else. They will also shred warrior squads (in comparison to other weapons).
There are 9 ITC tournament results on record ATM.
Crons are in the top 5 at 7 of the 9 tournies. That says something to me. (The other two must've had either some terrible dice, terrible piloting, or terrible list writing )
And I know the one that came in 2nd at the 30 man event I was at was a decurion, and he went 5-0-1 and only drew against 1st place taudar guy.
The average placement of the highest necron player in all 9 so far is 5th place on the dot, (and again, those two poor performances are seriously damaging their average.)
The average highest eldar rank is 4.5, only a little ahead. (And of course, the best eldar are doing the best on average out of all the armies.)
Nids, daemons, marines of any type, even tau are all much worse average highest placement than either of them.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
MSS was definitely not an issue. It was a giant "shoot me from range" sign.
All I cared about was nerfing Wraiths' 3++ to a 4++ at best. We all know how that went. The rest of the previous codex was not bad.
As a Chaos Player forced to challenge, MSS was an issue.
Course there's alotta issues for us, being on the low tier end. I feel like Tau in 5th edition.
Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Necrons have the option to be fast, are incredibly durable, have guns on basic grunts which can effect even land raiders, have marine statlines, have the ability to ignore most slot types, have lychguard, praetorians, wraiths, tomb blades and flayed ones as incredibly strong units and have ld10 all round or fearless. Being durable isn't their only thing.
This is coming from a cron player.
Half of the previous codex was excellent competitively, the other half was utter drivel. It's reasonably balanced internally now, it just has shocking external balance.
That means an average necron gets a 4+ save another 4+ save and then another 1/6th chance of a 4+ save.
I could have my facts confused though, I don't have the codex
The reroll 1 RPs is for models in the Reclamation Legion formation who are within 12" of the warlord, IIRC
Maybe you're thinking of the Mephrit Dynasty detachment...IIRC that gives army-wide reroll on RP 1. But units in a Mephrit Dynasty detachment cannot also be part of a Decurion detachment, as far as I know.
That means an average necron gets a 4+ save another 4+ save and then another 1/6th chance of a 4+ save.
I could have my facts confused though, I don't have the codex
You're correct. Although technically you could say that it is a 1/3 of a chance for the further 4+ because anything 4 or more would be a successful rp save anyway.
I find it utterly impossible to fight Decurion as a Khorne daemonkin player with the current model selection I have: Lots of power armor that won't see combat.
Da Stormlord wrote: Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Wat. Is this another one of those "40k is actually balanced guys!! You just aren't elite enough to see it!!" Posts?
Because dark angels, blood angels, orks, CSM, AM, and any core marine chapter not using centurions would like you to point out their "OP in their own right" bits.
Da Stormlord wrote: Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
No, every army is not OP in its own right, especially not across the codex. GK paladins aren't scary at all anymore, there's no wound allocation gimmicks they can play anymore, and firepower levels have increased such that they're much easier to remove than before. Necrons can match Eldar for speed with their own Jetbikes and more commonly available and more capable Flyers and Beast units.
And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Vaktathi wrote: nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Actually, I'd say the codex solved the problem by nerfing all the "clutch" units, and buffing the previously bad units.
My guess is the 4+ Decurion RP was offered, because the game designers wanted Necrons to play more like The Terminator. The formations seem like more of a marketting ploy than anything else, and the new Daemonkin codex shows that this strategy is not peculiar to Necrons.
The only headscratcher for me in the whole codex really is Wraith Toughness. That may very well have been an FU to the IoM from a Necron-enthusiast game designer, or some such.
krodarklorr wrote: 2++ rerollable saves from Tzeentch Daemons, and a 2++ save on Draigo (4 wounds and EW) with a psychic power.
I was thinking more "things which come stock as 2++". WRT to Draigo's 2++, the easy way to fix that is to make the Sanctuary power cap at a 3++; still the same "+1 to invuln" effect, but it doesn't improve past a 3++. This prevents it from being stacked up on GKTs/Paladins, as well as preventing Draigo from getting a 2++.
After that, just remove/reword things that allow failed saves to be re-rolled to not apply to invulnerable saves; armor and cover can both be ignored, but invulns can't unless you roll a 6 on Str weapons.
I agree with changing Sanctuary, though a new ruleset is awhile away, and thus won't happen for a long time. And they should just change Invulns to cap at at 3++ in general. That would fix things.
Well, I have to ask then:
How is a 2++ innately broken? I don't really see it- particularly things like Armor Indomitus, where you can only use it on one turn of the game, or the Shadowfield where it's "destroyed" if you fail a save (nevermind that Archons are T3 and are probably going to be dead anyways if they fail the save).
I just don't see how something like the two items I specifically mentioned is even close to broken; Shadowfields are bit of high risk high reward- if you fail the save, you lose the Shadowfield. The Armor Indomitus has that 2++ as a "once per game" type of effect, so you'd hold it until a "clutch" moment against something that can just punch straight through your usual 2+ armor that the Armor Indomitus confers.
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Stormlord wrote: Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark.
Da Stormlord wrote: Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Quoted for truth, good sir.
Truth yeah, I suppose that truth isn't equivalent for CSM, DA, SOB, IG, or many other armies that make top 5?
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark.
Are you one of the people that find Tac marines useless? I've told my girlfriend numerous times, to bring more weight of fire in her lists. When she does that, she actually gives me a run for my money. A squad of 20 Warriors will most likely never die, and can shoot and kill most things in the game. Weight of fire is how Necrons deal with things like Terminators. Tomb Blades don't have as much firepower, and tend to be focused down. Flayed ones are only good in CC. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Quoted for truth, good sir.
Truth yeah, I suppose that truth isn't equivalent for CSM, DA, SOB, IG, or many other armies that make top 5?
I should correct myself. I actually was looking at the second part of his post. The first part is certainly debatable.
Vaktathi wrote: nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Actually, I'd say the codex solved the problem by nerfing all the "clutch" units, and buffing the previously bad units.
My guess is the 4+ Decurion RP was offered, because the game designers wanted Necrons to play more like The Terminator. The formations seem like more of a marketting ploy than anything else, and the new Daemonkin codex shows that this strategy is not peculiar to Necrons.
The only headscratcher for me in the whole codex really is Wraith Toughness. That may very well have been an FU to the IoM from a Necron-enthusiast game designer, or some such.
I have a hunch that what happened with Wraiths was something like
There are two jump infantry units in the game, Wraiths and Praetorians
We have to improve Praetorians, because the have the same niche as Wraiths but are worse
Let's make Wraiths Beasts instead of jump infantry
Now Wraiths are weaker iin assault because they no longer have hammer of wrath. They're not an assault unit any more. They're a tarpit
Vaktathi wrote: nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Actually, I'd say the codex solved the problem by nerfing all the "clutch" units, and buffing the previously bad units.
My guess is the 4+ Decurion RP was offered, because the game designers wanted Necrons to play more like The Terminator. The formations seem like more of a marketting ploy than anything else, and the new Daemonkin codex shows that this strategy is not peculiar to Necrons.
The only headscratcher for me in the whole codex really is Wraith Toughness. That may very well have been an FU to the IoM from a Necron-enthusiast game designer, or some such.
I have a hunch that what happened with Wraiths was something like
There are two jump infantry units in the game, Wraiths and Praetorians
We have to improve Praetorians, because the have the same niche as Wraiths but are worse
Let's make Wraiths Beasts instead of jump infantry
Now Wraiths are weaker iin assault because they no longer have hammer of wrath. They're not an assault unit any more. They're a tarpit
Let's give them a tarpit-enhancer -- +1 T
Well, they did fix praetorians though. I would rather have Praetorians if I wanted to kill anything effectively.
If you're fighting vehicles, light infantry, and T8+ units, the Wraiths have a clear superiority.
Against heavy infantry and medium T5/6/7 MC's, the Praetorians are better, but the Wraiths aren't exactly terrible against such units either.
Praetorians are solid units, its just that the Wraiths can engage just about anything, are even faster (get Fleet and 12" move, don't have to choose, and ignore cover completely) and are so much more resilient, that they're almost auto-pilot units, the only thing you need to worry about with them is target priority.
Hosted a game of Eldar vs Decurion Necrons this past weekend. By turn 4, the Eldar player was ready to concede. In one turn, he dropped 22 wounds on a single unit of 15 warriors and a overlord. Of those 22, 11 of them were AP2 or better. By the time the smoke cleared, a mere 5 Necron warriors were dead.
The Canoptek Harvest faired even better. The spyder took 2 wounds after being shot at for 4 turns by Wraithcannons and brightlances. The Wraiths took no wounds from similar shooting, and the scarabs tied up a wraithknight for 5 rounds of combat before finally being wiped out (but they inflicted 4 wounds on the WK during that time).
After the game, the Necron player actually said, "It's not that the Decurian is OP, its just that it totally gimps (the opponent's) offense." I tried to keep from laughing too hard....
If the Daemonkin codex is known as "Codex: Buy A New Bloodthirster", then the Necron codex should be known as "Codex: Buy Stuff With Destroyer Weapons".
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark.
Against ap5 st7 or lower warriors only have a 20.8% chance of failing a save which is far closer to a termis 16.7% chance of failing than a powerarmoured 33.3% chance of failing.
Against ap3 and 4 they have a 41.4% chance of failing (this is their weak spot).
Against ap2 st7 or lower they have a better chance than termis (41.4% against 66.7% chance of failing)
Against ap2 st8 or higher they again have a better chance than termis (55.5% against 66.7%).
They are slightly less durable than termis overall I'd say due to the ap3-4 gap, but cost less than a 1/3 of the price. Comparing them to PA troops would highlight this even more.
They do not need any special weapons due to gauss so save points there and can take very effective DTs.
I've faced the New Necrons twice now. The volume of fire from splinter cannons helped the first time, while battlecannons worked very well the second time.
Mythra wrote: I'll tell you what is OP - Orikan w/ wraiths. 3++, 5 Tou, rerolling 1s on saves, 2 W each w/ the Spider formation giving them feel no pain.
I took several 10 StrAP 1 blasts and didn't lose a wraith.
Why wraiths instead of lichguards?
Lichguards also get 5T 3++ and RP, but more attacks at AP3. They cost nearly than half harvest wraith, so you get the same number of wounds, but without the risk of loosing the RP.
The real plus of the wraiths is their tremendous mobility, but with Orikan is inside the unit...
You lose fearless so if you lost a combat you could get swept, Lychguard get no shooting or over watch, I use the Spyder formation so I get relentless which means I can arm my wraiths with the trans beamers, you lose rending vs AV2 and Vehicles, your more vulnerable to blast, Lychguard are Str5 vs Wraiths Str6 which is big wounding t4 units, and with wraiths if the IC is up front with them they can get an addition 2 inches of move and you can still stay in coherency.
I find pretty difficult to conceive a scenario where a T5 rerolled S3++/4+++ unit could lose a melle combat. Maybe against an opponent with a D weapon? And even then is difficult.
In the other side, 3 wraiths with beamers, plus spider, plus scarabs, will cost more than 10 lychguards. Or, if you wanna use a complete wraithwing with 6 members plus Orikan, the equivalent in points with lichguards will be 10 plus Orikan plus a Dlord with S2+ & scythe.
In both cases the offensive and defensive capacity of the rock are better with lichguards (except against AV12 vehicles in the first case).
Regarding mobility, a conga line wouldn't be very affective in a relativety small unit that can not enter the trable via deep strike, flanking or using a transport.
The version with lichguards instead, could use a NS for a fast a precise deployment.
In short, what I'm trying to say is that a harvest Orikan is slightly less effective than with lichguards; and still Orikan with lichs is not a too fearsome unit (yes, it is one of the most indestructible rocks in the game, but hasn't the speed or power to actually affect anything that can move and do not want to be affected).
There are certanly some cheese in the codex, but Orikan in S3 ++ unit, beyond making a super tough rock, is not one of those.
Anything long range, especially anything that doesn't need LOS. Take advantage of cover saves. More shots is better than quality shots. Melee kills, blast wrecks, etc. Remember that you won't table necrons usually, but you can widdle them down so their already measly shots go down to nothing. It's a tough fight, but it's possible.
The decurian detachment is there to help with the fact they don't have psyckers. Every army without them has super ranged capability, ( tau and skitarri) or the ability to get defensive buffs easily(dark eldar, necrons, and daemonkin)
If there wasn't the ability to inviability, give out stealth and shrouded, or twinlink weapon options, then yes, the decurion would be too good. As it stands, the only thing that comes near op status in the canoptic harvest formation. T5 is a bit of a pain.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The decurian detachment is there to help with the fact they don't have psyckers. Every army without them has super ranged capability, ( tau and skitarri) or the ability to get defensive buffs easily(dark eldar, necrons, and daemonkin)
If there wasn't the ability to inviability, give out stealth and shrouded, or twinlink weapon options, then yes, the decurion would be too good. As it stands, the only thing that comes near op status in the canoptic harvest formation. T5 is a bit of a pain.
As a CSM player, I can safely say I would trade in my psykers for the amazing power of the Decurion.
I mean, having always on bonuses without the need of unreliably rolling up a power I might need or get one that's useless over what amounts to an armywide FNP that can't be denied by ID? Sign me up.
Jaceevoke wrote: I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
I wouldn't shelve them. If you feel they are too strong with their 'formation detachments', then just take the regular CAD from the BRB. Yes, crons are durable and a solid army, but they are less of a headache without the free massive bonuses. Just run them like 'old times' and people will be a lot happier, and I'm sure you will too.
Grimdark wrote: If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
MSS was definitely not an issue. It was a giant "shoot me from range" sign.
All I cared about was nerfing Wraiths' 3++ to a 4++ at best. We all know how that went. The rest of the previous codex was not bad.
As a Chaos Player forced to challenge, MSS was an issue.
Course there's alotta issues for us, being on the low tier end. I feel like Tau in 5th edition.
I play Chaos as well. My strategies were to either play keep away and ignore/shoot the HQ or put my beatstick HQ in a unit with a throwaway Aspiring Champion who only gets war gear that can't bypass his unit's armor. With the latter option I relied on sweeping or wound saturation to take care of the HQ.
I agree that we're still fighting uphill regardless.
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Szeras wrote: Anything long range, especially anything that doesn't need LOS. Take advantage of cover saves. More shots is better than quality shots. Melee kills, blast wrecks, etc. Remember that you won't table necrons usually, but you can widdle them down so their already measly shots go down to nothing. It's a tough fight, but it's possible.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are undercosted. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4 or make them cost more. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
This got my exalt. I think the way you put it is more accurate, undercosted as apposed to OP. I'll edit the post to make more sense.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
This got my exalt. I think the way you put it is more accurate, undercosted as apposed to OP. I'll edit the post to make more sense.
Why thank you, sir.
But no, if I really wanted to kill stuff in melee, I purchased/painted 20 Flayed ones a little while back, as well as have invested into more Praetorians. Them I expect to kill stuff dead.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
Au contraire, I haven't actually used my Necrons since the new codex came out (mostly because one of my regular opponents uses them and doesn't have her own models yet).
When I say "throw lots of heavy bolters at them", I talk from experience as a Sororitas player fighting against the 'crons.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
Undercosted = overpowered
They mean exactly the same thing. Maybe you are saying the idea of a wraith isn't OP, and I agree. When you don't pay enough for it, it's very OP.
Yeah, the undercosted/overpowered thing is an argument of semantics, and not really important. The general gist of claiming something is overpowered is that its abilities do not match its price tag. Whether the price tag is inappropriate for the abilities, or the abilities are inappropriate for the price tag, the end result is the same. The unit or formation in question offers too much for too little cost, and thus is overpowered.
I suppose you could argue the amount of overpowered-ness, but I don't think you'll be able to come to any sort of concrete agreement with people.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
Au contraire, I haven't actually used my Necrons since the new codex came out (mostly because one of my regular opponents uses them and doesn't have her own models yet).
When I say "throw lots of heavy bolters at them", I talk from experience as a Sororitas player fighting against the 'crons.
My last game I had 10 bolter sisters, 3 heavy bolter immolators and 4 heavy bolter retributors try to take out a unit of 10 cron warriors round 1. They killed one, and it got resurrected next round.
(the same game a unit of arco flails managed to take out his 500p warlord bunker though, by making 2 wounds, two crusaders completely saving 10 wounds, him rolling 12 for the leadership test and suffering a catastrophic sweeping advance. So I'm not allowed to complain about that game.)
I have seen a pretty interesting match between a Decurion style Necron army and a Coven Dark Eldar Army. Dark Eldars mannaged to win after a lot of grinding in close combat. I have seen similar things with orks green tides (an Imperial Guard tried with lots of tanks supported by cheap underarmed troops but failed). I think those two forces mirror each ther quite nicely. From what I have seen on Dakka Dakka, most competitive players are rather impatient and prefer glass hammer kind of tactics where they strike really hard and make a lot of damage safely than slowly grinding the ennemy away. This may be one of the reason Necron are hated a lot. Their greatest quality is do deny a style of play loved by a lot of players. As for how to defeat them, immobilising the wraith in assault with a stubborn unit with hight leadership and slowing down the rest of the ennemy forces with terrain to grab more objectives seems to be the safest route, but I have yet to win against such kind of army with my guys.
Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.
Why everyone says thats wraits in decurion have +4 RP?
Canoptek harvest rules: Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.
Decurion rules: Ever-living: Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls. Models in this Detachment with the Living Metal rule ignore the effects of Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken (but still lose a Hull Point).
Canoptek harvest formation just benefit from the effects of the chosen rule but dont give that RULE - so wraits have only +5 RP
buddha wrote: Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.
I'm not so sure Doc. Rezolut might be on to something. This may be a case of RAW. Good luck getting any Necron players on board with this type of reasoning.
buddha wrote: Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.
We do have counters to it, just no one uses them.
Roll more sixes. You can wound anything and glance anything with your basic weapons. Scarabs, while somewhat easy to kill, can also wreck any vehicle with a little bit of good dice rolling.
docdoom77 wrote: Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.
It's pretty clear.
Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.
Suicidal.Simian wrote: I'm not so sure Doc. Rezolut might be on to something. This may be a case of RAW. Good luck getting any Necron players on board with this type of reasoning.
buddha wrote: Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.
We do have counters to it, just no one uses them.
Roll more sixes. You can wound anything and glance anything with your basic weapons. Scarabs, while somewhat easy to kill, can also wreck any vehicle with a little bit of good dice rolling.
That is true. I can't tell you how many games I've played where there was a drought of 6s. However, what I was referring to are things like Doom Scythes and Doomsday Arks. Centurions would crumble to S10, and the AP1 with Primary Weapon/Lance could do a number on Knights as well, well Gauss flanks their shield.
docdoom77 wrote: Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.
It's pretty clear.
Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.
How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!
docdoom77 wrote: Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.
It's pretty clear.
Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.
How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!
Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase.
That needs to be FAQed. For fair play, I'd say that they cannot benefit from RP bonuses from any source and instead are really just getting a FNP 5+ that is reduced to a 6+ by ID.
Ok, so wraiths don't get 4+++ RP. Everyone is acting like wraiths are the big problem in the codex. They're just a tough distraction unit cause they're fast so you have to concentrate on them and they're pretty durable.
The necron player still gets an across the board 4+++ with reroll of 1s. Then they can possibly get back up. That is far more significant as you just can't kill average guys.
If it was a standard FNP it wouldn't be so harsh at least it could be negated some times. As it is, the best off is 5+++.
You can't even reliably drown then in wounds.
Average weapons are Ap5 so they'll get a potential 3 save rolls with a chance to get back up.
Obviously this is just a decurion but even regular armies are going to be ludacrisly tough.
docdoom77 wrote: Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.
It's pretty clear.
Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.
How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!
Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase.
That needs to be FAQed. For fair play, I'd say that they cannot benefit from RP bonuses from any source and instead are really just getting a FNP 5+ that is reduced to a 6+ by ID.
Yeah, certainly needs an FAQ, along with a ton of other things with this codex. But it's weird though, as there are so little instances, if any, that you benefit from a special rule without actually having the special rule.
docdoom77 wrote: Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.
It's pretty clear.
Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.
Maybe. That's pretty iffy to me. I know it wouldn't fly where I play. An FAQ would be nice. Cleaner language would be even better, but that's not gonna happen.
Boniface wrote: Ok, so wraiths don't get 4+++ RP. Everyone is acting like wraiths are the big problem in the codex. They're just a tough distraction unit cause they're fast so you have to concentrate on them and they're pretty durable.
The necron player still gets an across the board 4+++ with reroll of 1s. Then they can possibly get back up. That is far more significant as you just can't kill average guys.
If it was a standard FNP it wouldn't be so harsh at least it could be negated some times. As it is, the best off is 5+++.
You can't even reliably drown then in wounds. Average weapons are Ap5 so they'll get a potential 3 save rolls with a chance to get back up.
Obviously this is just a decurion but even regular armies are going to be ludacrisly tough.
Untrue. The rerolling 1s is only within 12" of the Overlord of the Reclamation Legion, and only for models in the Reclamation Legion. Models from other formations in the Decurion do not get the reroll (but do get the 4+++)
Necrons are a very strong army now. Everything is very durable and we have a lot of power units. However, we do have our weaknesses. Necrons lack a lot of specialist weapons - no real Melta options (Acanthrites from Forgeworld, but they're not that good), middling range on everything except a couple (mediocre) units, relatively low mobility aside from Flyers and a couple specialist units, and across the board low initiatives which is more damaging in Assault than people make it out to be. Aside from our dedicated Assault units, the rest of our army is easily swept by things that hit hard and fast. All vehicles are open topped, and therefore easy to pop or render otherwise useless by anti-tank weaponry. We also lack good anti-air options short of allies or taking a fortification. Scythes are our only real options in that regard.
Are Necrons a top-tier army? Yes, we can hold our own against many top lists. Are they the best in the game? I would argue not by a long shot. There's nothing that makes them particularly better than Daemons, Eldar, Flyrantspam, or in many cases Tau and certain Space Marine builds. For casual play, though, I can see how it might be a bit more difficult to deal with. They are, indeed, an army that it's really easy to be good as, and that are difficult to deal with for someone not being "tryhard".
This is probably due to the fact that the entire book has very good internal balance. No unit, aside from a few of the vehicles, seem to be "bad". It's easy for someone with, say, a CSM book to choose models they like and do poorly with them because they're not that great - there's only a few models in CSM that pull their own weight. It's actually difficult to look at the Necron book and create a list that doesn't work - everything compliments one another very well and everything is usable in nearly every situation.
Well, there's a lot of factors that make Necrons strong. Versatility, resiliency, good codex balance, no real "single point of failure" like a CCS throwing out orders, and of course breaking the meta by demanding a lot of AP3/AP4 weapons, Deathstar-level assault, Instant Death to deal with the 2W/T5 units , and bodies to absorb damage and last the game.
Tournament players with a good sense of timing can hold their own, but it's going to be hard for regular players who've been building lists with a lot of AP1/AP2 shooting and elite units to adapt.
Listing off their theoretical weaknesses is nice, but it makes no difference unless people can practically target them. Play some list swaps, I'm sure you'll notice why some players are frustrated.
Boniface wrote: I'd imagine it's intentional so that they're not massively OP. GW do know some stuff you know.
Given how poorly worded so many other rules are, I highly doubt they knew what they were doing with this one.
You're also going to struggle during a game with an unknown opponent to convince them "benefits of special rule" is not the same as "having the special rule".
Icelord wrote: I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?
As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.
I have yet to see a Decurion lose a game.
I won my last game against a Decurion Necron force 15-1. I used the Canoptek Harvest and a normal CAD. Objective Secured got me 6 of those points that otherwise wouldnt have been mine.
EDIT: I have played against a Decurion 4 times. I have not lost to a Decurion yet. I also fought them with a Highlander Tau force and a normal Necron force with basically Warriors, an Obelisk and a couple Monoliths. so at this stage I am 4-0 against Decurion.
I found the games to be extremely "molasses in winter" like, but in the end I also saw that WITHOUT the Decurion, I might have blown them out worse. So I won't say it's a fun experience Desperately trying to break the enemy by killing two dudes total on a charge (maybe) and breaking them on 7's (eventually) but I have a hard time condemning it also, since it hasn't actually succeeded in stopping me.
Icelord wrote: I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?
As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.
I have yet to see a Decurion lose a game.
I won my last game against a Decurion Necron force 15-1. I used the Canoptek Harvest and a normal CAD. Objective Secured got me 6 of those points that otherwise wouldnt have been mine.
To refer back to my earlier statement, in this example, ObSec doesn't appear to have been a game changer.
At absolute best, assuming they'd have been able to claim (and not just contest) each of those other objectives, they'd have still lost, 7 to your 9, and thus, the lack of ObSec would not have have changed who won that game.
That said, Necron vs Necron is going to minimize the advantages of the Decurion relative to other armies given that you're still getting RP and other formation bonuses, just not quite as strong.
Well Obsec DID pay off in some of the other games though. It WAS the game when I played with the Warrior list.
I don't know why people undervalue Obsec so much but I think that the overwhelming wish to maximize the toys you get to play with has more to do with that perception than reality.
My Highlander Tau incidentally definitely owe many wins to that rule. Tau crumble rather easily when given the chance, despite their firepower. None of them are tougher than nearly any enemy arrayed against them. But being in the right place at games nd plays big with my Tau force.
But thats off the subject. I think my main main point here was that Decurion is neither unbeatable nor has the Decurion element been enough yet. I am sure there will be games they win because of the Decurion. but thats fair. They are trying to win also. Their special stuff SHOULD matter once in a while.
There's going to be an adjustment period, like always. I think Melee more and more proves its worth in 7E. Breaking Necron Morale is a great way to go.
Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:
Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)
Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.
Aaaaand this is why I don't even bother with the competitive setting. Adlance is stupid, and Invisible Deathstars shouldn't be a thing, but GW thought that would be a nice touch to the game. Also, why the hell would US tournaments rule that Gauss does nothing to Void Shields? That just doesn't even make sense, and gimps Necrons as a whole. That is how we deal with armor, after all. The point is, Necrons don't have cheese (Wraithspam isn't as viable as it used to be, the Decurion is restrictive, and we lack Psychic powers), and therefor will never completely dominate the tournament scene, where cheese and cheap exploitations is all that wins games. So why bother comparing Necrons, or any single army in itself (since it's mostly armies allied with other things, such as knights), to the competitive setting? Necrons alone have the most internal balance, and in a casual setting, or even a lower, friendly tournament scene, are very strong, if not too strong.
But, for the sake or argument, lets take a look at some of the things you listed, just for sheer fun.
Massed Flyrants/FMC daemons - Flyrants chuck out S6 shooting, but thats about it. Bring 2-3 Night Scythes and you shouldn't have much of an issue, as your infantry probably won't take too much damage over the course of the game from it. Also, Daemons typically do, what, fly around and cast psychic powers? Ignore them.
Wraithknights - Everything in our book can now hurt it. Literally. And the Destroyer Cult would shred through them.
Wave Serpents - They will do what, exactly, to Wraiths? Not a lot, especially is someone is bringing a ton of Tomb Blades with those Wraiths.
2+ save units - Heavy Destroyers are much more common now. Also, Riptides aren't a threat, they are completely ignorable. And broadsides aren't too difficult to get to run off the board.
Invisible Deathstars - Trying to figure out what Necrons would do against this is pointless, as what would anything do to this. This power should not exist in the game.
Daemon Summoning - From what I've seen, not really a huge threat in general. Are people still using this as a primary list idea in tournaments?
2+ Cover - Tomb Blades
Massed Bikers - Shoot them. Or Wraiths. Take your pick.
Another Decurion - I have to admit, that would be tough. I'm not sure how you'd deal with that. Guess it depends on who brought what.
Adlance Knights - Necrons have the tools to deal with these, as broken as it is. Would it be easy? Probably not. But certainly possible. Flank them and avoid shields. Boom.
Void Shields - Again, thats slowed that Gauss doesn't hurt it. I would just not even participate in a tournament if that was the case.
Fast Deathstars - TWC? Umm, Wraiths. I keep saying Wraiths because thats what people typically bring in competitive lists, but yes. Wraiths.
Shooty Deathstars - Necrons have plenty of tools for these, you just wouldn't see them in a competitive setting. That being said, Wraiths.
So, you might not think they're the most competitive, but they have answers to most, if not all of the things you listed. And once Eldar and Space Marines get toned down (yes, I'm that confident) we'll see a lot less of the stuff on that list.
Here I'm with Klorr all the time.
There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.
There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.
I'd still disagree that we can reliably handle adlance.
"flank the shields" , short of bringing 3x 15 warriors in nightscythes that's not happening regularly. A lance can protect each others unshielded sides rather easily, especially as their threat range equals our maximum range.
"gauss it to death, weight of fire" , we're talking over 70 warriors in rapid fire range, to drown out an adlance knight, because if you don't kill it in 1 volly, it will charge you and it will sweep you, potentially killing half of the squad beside you for good measure.
If you tailor a list exactly to do it, you might be able to. Maybe bring a fethload of destroyer/Hdestroyers, and a ton of tachyon arrows.
Necrons are the potentially the best army to deal with one knight, and potentially the worst to deal with 3.
I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.
There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.
I'd still disagree that we can reliably handle adlance.
"flank the shields" , short of bringing 3x 15 warriors in nightscythes that's not happening regularly. A lance can protect each others unshielded sides rather easily, especially as their threat range equals our maximum range.
"gauss it to death, weight of fire" , we're talking over 70 warriors in rapid fire range, to drown out an adlance knight, because if you don't kill it in 1 volly, it will charge you and it will sweep you, potentially killing half of the squad beside you for good measure.
If you tailor a list exactly to do it, you might be able to. Maybe bring a fethload of destroyer/Hdestroyers, and a ton of tachyon arrows.
Necrons are the potentially the best army to deal with one knight, and potentially the worst to deal with 3.
I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.
Most armies cannot deal with Invisibility. Adlance is still stupid, but depending on what you bring (Wraiths and Destroyer Cult would do well) you'd have a decent chance. And Dreadknights, well, lets look at it from a more competitive view. Most people are now bringing Canoptek Harvests and Destroyer Cults. Heavy Destroyers would destroy them (derp). And a Destroyer lord with the Voidreaper would do most of the damage in CC. Some people are even bringing Judicator Battalions, so Twin-linked AP2 with Shred will destroy them as well. And outside of competitive, Nightbringer would eat a Dreadknight alive.
harkequin wrote: I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.
Dreadknights have never been a serious threat to Necrons, even before the new codex. Short of invisibility abuse, Grey Knights in general are an easy prospect: Hard alpha strike bounces off our durability, then their firepower declines turn by turn until they stop being any sort of threat.
The main issue of dreadknights is their mobility. The Nightbringer would create a nice buffer zone, but unfortunately not seen too often.
I list them as a problem mainly because they are the biggest issue for warriors. They are the one thing warriors consistently fear, 1/36 hits do any damage to them, and with a 24" assault threat range (reasonably 18-20) , if we can touch them they can sweep us with WS5 master crafted ID AP2 attacks. A dreadknight can consistently deal with warriors (who lets face it, are our bread and butter at the moment).
When facing 3 of them in a list, good luck having enough Hdestroyers to cut through 4 wounds before it gets close enough to make its points back, all this not including it's AP4 shooting, which can be a moderate nuisance for some units.
A judicator battalion can deal with it, but it's still a heavy investment, heavy enough that you cant include it in a TAC list really, it has to be central to your army, same with destroyer cult. You can't just "throw it in" in case of a dreadknight.
My main point is it requires specific tools to deal with, If you know 3 are coming, you can butcher them, but it requires you to tailor to a list, you probably won't have the specific tools ready in a lot of your lists. It's one of the Tradeoffs of decurion, you can't throw in some Praets to deal with it, for less than 400 points.
DKs are beatable, i just rank them as one of our more concerning enemies, we can tank anything else, 5 flyrants? oh no, i might temporarily lose 2 dudes. 5 2+svMCs jumping to my lines, i may need new pants.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wraiths will still handle them though, they're just scary for warriors.
Most armies cannot deal with Invisibility. Adlance is still stupid, but depending on what you bring (Wraiths and Destroyer Cult would do well) you'd have a decent chance. And Dreadknights, well, lets look at it from a more competitive view. Most people are now bringing Canoptek Harvests and Destroyer Cults. Heavy Destroyers would destroy them (derp). And a Destroyer lord with the Voidreaper would do most of the damage in CC. Some people are even bringing Judicator Battalions, so Twin-linked AP2 with Shred will destroy them as well. And outside of competitive, Nightbringer would eat a Dreadknight alive.
Well, yeah -- invisibility is the most broken/overpowered aspect of the game and is nerfed in some tournaments, so it's a terrible "vulnerability".
At the end of the day, though, Necron can be frustrating to beat, and if your opponent is using a list that's frustrating for a "conventional" or friendly list, there's nothing wrong with choosing models that exploit even more overpowered aspects of the game.
harkequin wrote: The main issue of dreadknights is their mobility. The Nightbringer would create a nice buffer zone, but unfortunately not seen too often.
I list them as a problem mainly because they are the biggest issue for warriors. They are the one thing warriors consistently fear, 1/36 hits do any damage to them, and with a 24" assault threat range (reasonably 18-20) , if we can touch them they can sweep us with WS5 master crafted ID AP2 attacks. A dreadknight can consistently deal with warriors (who lets face it, are our bread and butter at the moment).
When facing 3 of them in a list, good luck having enough Hdestroyers to cut through 4 wounds before it gets close enough to make its points back, all this not including it's AP4 shooting, which can be a moderate nuisance for some units.
A judicator battalion can deal with it, but it's still a heavy investment, heavy enough that you cant include it in a TAC list really, it has to be central to your army, same with destroyer cult. You can't just "throw it in" in case of a dreadknight.
My main point is it requires specific tools to deal with, If you know 3 are coming, you can butcher them, but it requires you to tailor to a list, you probably won't have the specific tools ready in a lot of your lists. It's one of the Tradeoffs of decurion, you can't throw in some Praets to deal with it, for less than 400 points.
DKs are beatable, i just rank them as one of our more concerning enemies, we can tank anything else, 5 flyrants? oh no, i might temporarily lose 2 dudes. 5 2+svMCs jumping to my lines, i may need new pants.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wraiths will still handle them though, they're just scary for warriors.
Well yeah, warriors are vulnerable. But, most of the time they're in Ghost Arks, so it's not as easy for them to be shot at until the Ark explodes, and aside from melee, Dreadknights can't effectively kill our vehicles. Much less anything else Grey Knights have.
Well yeah, warriors are vulnerable. But, most of the time they're in Ghost Arks, so it's not as easy for them to be shot at until the Ark explodes, and aside from melee, Dreadknights can't effectively kill our vehicles. Much less anything else Grey Knights have.
Well to be fair, it's not exactly in a vacuum, i mean , the sort of list running 3 DKs is probably running some grav cents or something as well.
DKs just exploit our main weakness, getting swept in assault, they're one of the few things that can reliably get to us, stay intact, and sweep us, everything else we can intercept with lychguard, or straight up shoot to bits before it gets near us. It's the deadly combo of mobility,durability and raw power.
Skullhammer wrote: And dont forget no escape on the arks so the dk can still fry upto 6 warriors then cc the ark.
He could, at most, cook 6 if he rolled a 6, didn't roll a 1 to wound, and we failed all of our Reanimates. Under normal circumstances that wouldn't happen, and therefor he's not doing much to the guys inside.
He'll probably kill one, then pop the transport easily. What are they going to do? 10 guys rapid fire, 20 shots,14 hits, 2.3 wounds -> about 1/3 of a wound.
The wriaths can tarpit them, wraiths can do most things, people can prioritise your wraiths, unless you're bringing 18, focus fire will cripple their tarpit potential, considering if they get to a DK, it'll kill one each round
Automatically Appended Next Post: DK's are still one of the most concerning things for our army, that's my point. Any 12" move, T6+ 2+save melee specialist unit, is a problem for us. Thankfully it's a short list.
harkequin wrote: He'll probably kill one, then pop the transport easily. What are they going to do? 10 guys rapid fire, 20 shots,14 hits, 2.3 wounds -> about 1/3 of a wound.
The wriaths can tarpit them, wraiths can do most things, people can prioritise your wraiths, unless you're bringing 18, focus fire will cripple their tarpit potential, considering if they get to a DK, it'll kill one each round
Automatically Appended Next Post: DK's are still one of the most concerning things for our army, that's my point. Any 12" move, T6+ 2+save melee specialist unit, is a problem for us. Thankfully it's a short list.
Recently i've been running 18 wraiths, so i guess the point is a bit moot
I used to run Decrion, 2 Garks, 10 immortals, orikan star 3tombblades. and played one dropsquads . (+ a culexus)
I found problems with the fact, that things with 12 moves, had an easier time picking targets against me than i them. Bear in mind it could handle most things, but grav cents, neutered ghost arks easily, making the 3DKs a huge problem for me.
If i had run a 6 man wraith squad , i could still only tarpit one 225pt knight with 250 pts, of wraiths.
Again, i should mention, I could go toe to toe with 90% of lists, but against friends practicing for tourneys it was a different story. DKs are straight up a bad time for casual necrons, that arent packing a full up, Dcult/ Judicator, (cos half of either is no fun )
My current list wouldnt have too much of an issue with the 3DK draigostar list, mainly because it runs 18 wraiths
It's great now that Invisibility exists, because it's the only thing Necrons struggle with even in the slightest. The day it is removed should be the day Necrons receive a nerf.
If someone denies that Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest aren't both immensely powerful and require nothing but fielding them to be so, they are either a Necron player or highly ignorant.
harkequin wrote: Recently i've been running 18 wraiths, so i guess the point is a bit moot
I used to run Decrion, 2 Garks, 10 immortals, orikan star 3tombblades. and played one dropsquads . (+ a culexus)
I found problems with the fact, that things with 12 moves, had an easier time picking targets against me than i them. Bear in mind it could handle most things, but grav cents, neutered ghost arks easily, making the 3DKs a huge problem for me.
If i had run a 6 man wraith squad , i could still only tarpit one 225pt knight with 250 pts, of wraiths.
Again, i should mention, I could go toe to toe with 90% of lists, but against friends practicing for tourneys it was a different story. DKs are straight up a bad time for casual necrons, that arent packing a full up, Dcult/ Judicator, (cos half of either is no fun )
My current list wouldnt have too much of an issue with the 3DK draigostar list, mainly because it runs 18 wraiths
Well, you're also apparently fighting someone with 3 Dreadknights and Grav Cents, which breaks the fun of the game anyway. I always refer to casual, not top-tier competitive level games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RunicFIN wrote: It's great now that Invisibility exists, because it's the only thing Necrons struggle with even in the slightest. The day it is removed should be the day Necrons receive a nerf.
If someone denies that Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest aren't both immensely powerful and require nothing but fielding them to be so, they are either a Necron player or highly ignorant.
I won't say it's not powerful, but it won't win you games on it's own.
Well, you're also apparently fighting someone with 3 Dreadknights and Grav Cents, which breaks the fun of the game anyway. I always refer to casual, not top-tier competitive level games.
Well yeah, but it was agreed beforehand that it was tourney practice, so no surprises there. Still perfectly enjoyable, challenging games can be fun.
To be fair, this thread is about the strength of decurion. I think my point illustrates that, although decurion is strong, if everyone is bringing their A-lists, it's really not OP. It's just in a casual setting very easily to accidentally build a top tier list using the decurion. Both from unit choices, and from everliving.
