nocliper101 wrote: Marines are not worth much by themselves, and at least if we are talking table top, 100 guardsmen would smash a single tactical squad.
I'm talking about in the fluff, hence why I posted this in the background forum, we all know how average Tac squads are on the table.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
There's a lot said about Space Marines. Put a single Space Marine against 100 guardsmen in a pitched firefight, fluff or game, and the Space Marine is dead in an instant. Rogal Dorn gave a far more conservative 1:10 estimate with other troops.
In general, what it really boils down to is who is writing the story and who is the protagonist. Space Marine power level is wildly, absurdly variable depending on who is doing the writing and from what perspective, or even when it was written (fluff from RT and 2E didn't have marines at anything near the power level they're often portrayed at in newer stuff typically).
I think it would depend on the engagement. For example, guard would be little more than useless in a lightning fast precision strike. On the other hand, space marines would be on slightly better than a guardsmen or two in trench warfare, since there is little room for the marine to use his abilities.
Also lot of the writing is from the view point of a Space Marine Captain or someone high ranked, making them even more awesome than everyone else. I would say 1:10 is about right. 1:50 if its a captain.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
Well quite a bit in any Dark Eldar Slave market - those Astartes boys give great value in the arena and if you just want something to hang on the wall and torture - well they can last for months with little food and no limbs...
Taffy17 wrote: Ok, so how do you think Sisters of Battle, Skitarii and Tempestus Scions compare?
Well both are definitely better than your standard Guard but, it depends on the terrain and exp of those involved.
A squad of sisters could take on two or even three squads of Guard and win, but will take casualties worth mentioning.
Skitarii are less cut and dry. Depends on their modifications and what role they are geared up for so I'l leave this one open for interpretation of the individual.
aw_man wrote: I think its more exponential. A single space marine could probably take on 10 or so guardsmen.
A single terminator could probably handle a whole lot more.
A tactical squad could probably hold off a large platoon.
A company with support and vehicles could probably take out a regiment or two.
When you get to small combined arms with space marines, i think they have/become the biggest force multipliers.
As long as there's no meltaguns or plasma guns for lucky shots, a single Astartes could easily kill far, faaar more than ten guardsmen. Even in the open they can run at around automobile speeds to just jump and slaughter multiple squads like some nightmarish predatory cat. In an urban setting they're a complete nightmare- their acceleration rates and stealth turn it into a slasher flick with squads being picked off one by one. Especially if it's seriously tight quarters like a Hab Block or something with winding interconnected alleyways.
One Marine is worth ten Guardsmen, Dorn said... But what is their wargear? Maybe he meant ten Guardsmen equipped with Shadowswords. They stand better chances with plasmas than with lasguns.
As long as the Guardsmen just have lasguns, bayonets and fists, he could go on forever.
One Marine is worth ten Guardsmen, Dorn said... But what is their wargear? Maybe he meant ten Guardsmen equipped with Shadowswords. They stand better chances with plasmas than with lasguns.
As long as the Guardsmen just have lasguns, bayonets and fists, he could go on forever.
As for what he actually is worth?
Spoiler:
I have no idea who came up with that nonsense that a current Marine's equipment for combat only costs 17,500. Having had to inventory more Crap then I ever want to see again in my life I can honestly say the real cost is at least another 10k on top of that, and thats before you get into special gear like scopes and thermals.
10 guardsmen with just lasgun would favor the Marine, 10 with a plasma or a meltagun and the Marine is going to have to need some really good target priority, which he has.
2-3 Scions can take out a Marine with just hotshots, yay for making most of the enemy wargear a joke
Don't know enough about the Skittari to comment.
As for Sisters, uh... Act of Faith would be a solid way for the Sister to keep up.
In a shooting game, the Marine has a slight advantage over the Sister - a Sister hit by a bolt round that doesn't penetrate could well go into static shock, while the Marine's interior biology is rather more resilient.
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).
Sisters are the only non-Marine force that can be reliably used to exterminate a Marine chapter, but that does ignore several salient facts: While the Marines outnumber the Sisters in absolute terms (there's about 80,000 battle sisters in the galaxy according to the 6e rulebook), the Sisters almost always have a much higher concentration of force.
I would say that a Marine is probably equivalent to three or four Battle Sisters on the field, but if you ask for support, you're more likely to get a hundred Sisters than you are to get twenty Marines (but more likely to get 1 Marine than 4 Sisters).
Furyou Miko wrote: In a shooting game, the Marine has a slight advantage over the Sister - a Sister hit by a bolt round that doesn't penetrate could well go into static shock, while the Marine's interior biology is rather more resilient.
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).
Sisters are the only non-Marine force that can be reliably used to exterminate a Marine chapter, but that does ignore several salient facts: While the Marines outnumber the Sisters in absolute terms (there's about 80,000 battle sisters in the galaxy according to the 6e rulebook), the Sisters almost always have a much higher concentration of force.
I would say that a Marine is probably equivalent to three or four Battle Sisters on the field, but if you ask for support, you're more likely to get a hundred Sisters than you are to get twenty Marines (but more likely to get 1 Marine than 4 Sisters).
I think it's a fair guess that Marines are slightly better marksmen then SOBs but it's just not eneugh to factor in the 1-6 rating of the game. Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number
They are used for different things. Like for instance, the Skitarii would be better at taking on armor and other vehicles, while sisters would excel at killing infantry. i don't know much about scions, but i would equate them to the D99 Inquisitorial drop troops, and in that case they would do well in small scale objective based missions. because of the nature of the fluff, Marines are kind of like a Jack of All trades, Good at most things and excelling in very few areas, Where as guardsmen, skitarii, scions and sisters all have specialized roles. The other thing that makes space marines so deadly is their drop pod insertions and access to tech and vehicles that most other factions simply don't or under employ.
I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.
Furyou Miko wrote: There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).
Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!
BrianDavion wrote: Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number
Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.
Furyou Miko wrote: There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes)
I think it's a fair guess that Marines are slightly better marksmen then SOBs but it's just not eneugh to factor in the 1-6 rating of the game. Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number
The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices. What the Marine has is a supercharged body, but all the adrenaline that lets him react fast, move fast, take a hit and hit hard also takes a toll on his eye-hand coordination. Your hands start shaking when you fill up with adrenaline, and a Marine produces lots more of it than a regular man. It's probably a testament to the Marine's incredible training that he can use a gun at all once the battle is upon him. His natural instinct is to run off and rip the opposition to pieces with his bare hands.
Eye-hand as in target shooting is one of the few physical things where our world's unenhanced females can consistently be equal or even beat us males. Women keep cool and concentrate better on the shot than most men simply because they don't produce as much fighting hormones.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.
Furyou Miko wrote: There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).
Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!
BrianDavion wrote: Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big enough one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number
Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.
At the risk of being jerk, you are categorically wrong on both accounts. Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.
As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter. Plus the Ad. Mech. funnels resources and supplies to chapters, while sisters rely on whatever is "donated" to them by the church. Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor. This is most exemplified by the fact that Space Marine chapters are self sufficient and have their own planets and fleets that they are autonomous over. The SOB rely largely on the Ecclesiarchy to get them places and supply them. It is not uncommon for an order or priory to be set up and then forgotten about. in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy SOB are expendable, much the same way guardsmen are. They are used to defend holy sites and be the millitant arm of the church in a largely reactionary way. Most aggressive action by them revolve around recovering relics or taking shrines back form chaos or xenos. while SM chapters are used as power projection forces and actively hunt threats to the imperium. they serve two fundamentally different roles, and the later is way more funded and supported than the former.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.
Furyou Miko wrote: There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).
Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!
BrianDavion wrote: Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number
Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.
Again with your "EVERY SECOND SPACE MARINE IS A TRAITOR!!!1" theory?
Just drop it...
Spetulhu wrote: The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices.
It is not that clear. Rank and file do not have the equivalent of a mastercrafted bolter. But Sisters might have something closer to this than marines.
GKTiberius wrote: Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.
That was just a jab for some fellow posters here, about discussions we had about how likely marines are to turn traitors . Sorry for the private joke.
GKTiberius wrote: As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter.
I am going to ask for source on that.
GKTiberius wrote: Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor.
Sisters equivalent are not mentioned because they have no models. When/if GW re-release them, they will get new stuff out of nowhere.
GKTiberius wrote: It is not uncommon for an order or priory to be set up and then forgotten about.
Again, going to ask for a source.
GKTiberius wrote: in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy SOB are expendable, much the same way guardsmen are.
Source?
Would they build that for guardsmen ?
Spoiler:
I mean, even just given how precious power armors are from the very start, how likely are they to be given to troops considered expendable?
GKTiberius wrote: They are used to defend holy sites and be the millitant arm of the church in a largely reactionary way. Most aggressive action by them revolve around recovering relics or taking shrines back form chaos or xenos.
You forgot one of their most important roles. They are the Ecclesiarchy's internal affairs. To put it another way, one of their role is to decide whether the priest who decide who get which budget is a dirty heretic that should be turned into an arco-flagellant, or if he is some loyal member of the Ecclesiarchy. How likely is that priest to forget about a whole priory? That would be very heretical in the eyes of the Sisters, I believe.
Must admit I always understood that the Power Armour used by rank and file Sororitas and Astartes was similar - the Marines having extra stuff, especially related to the Black carapace. Targeting and other enhancements being the same.
Master crafted weapons and Artificer armour are usually heirlooms and relatively rare in both forces. Not all Astartes chapters have large scale manufacturing, some do have Forge ships and even are as self sufficient as forge worlds but lots are not and rely on a supply chain from the AM.
GW has never made it clear who and how maintenance is carried out for or by the Sororitas sadly.......
In terms of worth - need to have context - Both the Sororitas and the Astartes evoke awe and reverence in the Imperial Guard and other similar forces - this is difficult to measure.........
The Sororitas are well armed and armoured but still human - whereas the Astartes are post human and have a lot of advantages. The Sororitas also tend to have fairly narrow areas of interest / reasonability and tend to act on the defensive. They carry out purges etc but seldom act as an invasion force on their own - their don't have the numbers or the infrastructure - they have Starships and drop pods but not many and its a big galaxy. A Crusade is a different matter............
It also worth remembering that the Sororitas and the Astartes can be extremely uncompromising - see pieces like Wrath of Iron........
In a straight city fight the Sororitas would be worth a number of guardsmen, even veterans as they are equally skilled and have superior armour, senses and weapons. A Marine is worth several Sororitas due to even more durability, speed in combat and ability to remain in the field - a Sister is skilled combatant with effective weapons - a Space Marine is a living weapon clad in a armour.
I think this piece of fiction is a great depiction of how a single marine can make a difference and his impact in a small warzone.....
As far as being left to defend places, I base that on my readings of the fluff, like the Grey Knights codex and other published sources. Although I will admit my knowledge of them is more limited than that of other factions.
When I say forgotten about, I mean they are pretty much left to their own devices and expected to make do with what they have, not literally forgotten about. They are supported nominally, but don't receive near the gear and support as a space marine chapter does. as to their roles as guardians and protectors I direct you to the following passage from Lexicanium:
The Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum's armies. The Sisters of Battle specialize in waging Wars of Faith and purging heresy wherever it may be found.[7] Because of this, its duties often overlap with the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition and as a result the Sisters of Battle maintain a close alliance with the Witch Hunters.[8] The Sisters of Battle themselves are divided into six Orders, each numbering tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, and many Orders Minoris, each containing thousands of Sisters themselves. These forces are rarely deployed in full-strength, rather being assigned to waging Wars of Faith, aiding the Inquisition, or protecting Ecclesiarchy buildings, property, and relics.[12]
that is pretty much what I said in my first post,
As far as quality of equipment is concerned, I hold up the example of the dreadnought to the penitent engine. They ultimately fluff wise serve different purposes (one is for punishment the other for veneration) but SOB don't have another dreadnought equivalent. They are used for fundamentally different purposes.
SOB are extremely good at what they do, which is purge humanity of heresy and fight for the ecclesiarchy, but they are no where near on equal footings with SM chapters, as the SM are post humans and operate on a level that average humans cant match. if they could, the Space Marine would serve no purpose. you cannot compare a physically average human in power armor to a 7.5 foot tall post human that was literally genetically engineered to be the best fighters that humanity has to offer and is neurally connected to that suite of armor so it is literally an extension of his body. It is an empirical fact.
Also in most fluff barring some sort of Deus Ex Machina from the Emperor or an external force, most stories about the SOB end with most or all of the sisters dying horribly but faithfully in the service of the Emperor, Its kind of their thing.
Spetulhu wrote: The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices.
It is not that clear. Rank and file do not have the equivalent of a mastercrafted bolter. But Sisters might have something closer to this than marines.
GKTiberius wrote: Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.
That was just a jab for some fellow posters here, about discussions we had about how likely marines are to turn traitors . Sorry for the private joke.
A joke with no evidence you constantly fail to provide for. Either cough up evidence or don't bring it up.
GKTiberius wrote: As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter.
I am going to ask for source on that.
Their power armor is worse. Their wargear is worse. Their augmentations are worse than both the Astartes and Admech Skitarii. Plus Astartes have fleets and superheavies like Fellblades.
GKTiberius wrote: Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor.
Sisters equivalent are not mentioned because they have no models. When/if GW re-release them, they will get new stuff out of nowhere.
Which means feth all. GW not giving a damn about Sisters isn't an argument for why they lack such gear in-universe. Either provide evidence to back up the existence of such Wargear and its logged usage, or concede the point.
Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Assuming equal battlefield with some degree of rubble and cover for both sides, standard issue equipment on all parts, starting the battle at somewhat long range by assault rifle standards, I'd put the balance something like this. 1 Marine is worth:
Guardsmen - Unlikely to be able to successfully defeat the Marine wthout more powerful tools.
Skitarii - Major cybernetic improvements and weapons capable of dealing more decent damage gives them an edge over the Guardsmen. Still would need a fair amount of them.
Battle Sisters - Unknown due to vagueness of their fluff and lack of clarity on what the hell they actually do. Either their Faith-Powers™ make them basically Warframes, or the powers are more mundane. I'd say ten but that's just throwing out a number. They have a number of really serious drawbacks. Shorter lives means that they often have less battle experience, the Marine has superior wargear (yes, he does, Oxa. Your SoB may have good gear, but it's still far thinner, and the absence of the Black Carapace means they have much less control over their movement). The Marine can maneuvre more comfortably as bolter fire can't penetrate PA plating, and the shockwave of the impact is something his physique can handle, whereas his return fire can demolish the SoB without even penetrating the armour. He is also fast enough to dive out of cover and shoot before the SoB can fire back. If it gets to melee the SoB won't stand a shadow of a chance. After all, the Auretian Technocracy was just Marines, except humans instead of Astartes, and they got utterly crushed by the Astartes. SoB are Auretians + Faith Powers™, so it's down to how much difference they do.
There would be a slew of dead guardsmen if a marine attacked them. Hundreds would be required unless they were issued plasma rifles. The real question becomes, what is the concentration of plasma and melta weapons? 500 guardsmen to a plasma rifle? You would need that to kill a marine.
Mr Morden wrote: Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Game mechanics state it has the same armor rating, and only on TT. FFG rates their armor lower, plus Sisters tend to get slaughtered in the Black Library with very little fuss. Not to mention in simple design Sister power armor is godawful and will lead to the wearer being extremely vulnerable to blunt trauma. And the boobplate works like a massive shot trap that will cause things like bolts to glance right into the sternum.
And no, neither Astartes or Sisters have augmentation anywhere near the level of Skitarii elite besides Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Skitarii of high enough rank get to the level where they have Astartes grade armor for skin and have assault cannons for arms. Not to mention are on a constant high of combat stims that render them fully immune to pain. Skitarii can get to the level where you need multiple Space Marines to equal ONE of those brutes.
Receive one dead Ork Waaagh and Chaos Space Marine warband.
To be fair, Captain Titus was very lucky. He only took on a few Ork infantry at a time relatively speaking and only 3-5 Chaos Marines per engagement.
Titus solo'd a warboss and his entire entourage and crushed a Daemon prince's skull with his bare hands (and killed off pretty much his entire remaining warband while he was at it) if every space marine was as good as he was the Imperium would be under no threat from anyone.
Mr Morden wrote: Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Game mechanics state it has the same armor rating, and only on TT. FFG rates their armor lower, plus Sisters tend to get slaughtered in the Black Library with very little fuss. Not to mention in simple design Sister power armor is godawful and will lead to the wearer being extremely vulnerable to blunt trauma. And the boobplate works like a massive shot trap that will cause things like bolts to glance right into the sternum.
And no, neither Astartes or Sisters have augmentation anywhere near the level of Skitarii elite besides Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Skitarii of high enough rank get to the level where they have Astartes grade armor for skin and have assault cannons for arms. Not to mention are on a constant high of combat stims that render them fully immune to pain. Skitarii can get to the level where you need multiple Space Marines to equal ONE of those brutes.
FFG is not GW - GW have Always stated in ALL their fluff that the level of protection is equal to Astartes - FFG changed it a bit for their RPG -for "reasons" like quite alot of things in fact.
The practilacilites of the armour as we perceive them are irrelevent - their are bullet traps all over the place for all sorts of 4ok things - but again lets go back to the actual GW fluff - and that says.............same level of protection - always.
also, if you look at it for ma TT perspective, a combat tac marine is worth only about 4 more points per model than a Skitarii. I don't have the AM codex or the SOB codex to compare point values, but that might be a place to start. I know fluff and crunch rarely mesh, but it could give you a frame of reference.
Marine vs. guardsmen in a single room with the guardsmen only getting lasguns? It's going to be a massacre, and it's far from certain that any reasonable number of guardsmen can kill the marine. But it's also not a very realistic or relevant scenario.
Marine vs. guardsmen in a ruined city with the guardsmen getting their normal weapons? The 10:1 ratio is probably about right, the marine has lots of advantages but all it takes is one plasma or melta shot to kill him.
Marine vs. guardsmen in an open field at long range? 1:1 at best, since both sides are equally good at pressing the "fire" button on a krak missile/lascannon/etc.
Marine and guardsmen have the same strategic objective? Probably ~10:1 again, a platoon of guardsmen can accomplish the same objective as a squad of marines, but will take much heavier losses. But the guardsmen cost a lot less than 1/10th of a marine, so "send more guardsmen" is usually the appropriate strategy.
Mr Morden wrote: Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Game mechanics state it has the same armor rating, and only on TT. FFG rates their armor lower, plus Sisters tend to get slaughtered in the Black Library with very little fuss. Not to mention in simple design Sister power armor is godawful and will lead to the wearer being extremely vulnerable to blunt trauma. And the boobplate works like a massive shot trap that will cause things like bolts to glance right into the sternum.
And no, neither Astartes or Sisters have augmentation anywhere near the level of Skitarii elite besides Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Skitarii of high enough rank get to the level where they have Astartes grade armor for skin and have assault cannons for arms. Not to mention are on a constant high of combat stims that render them fully immune to pain. Skitarii can get to the level where you need multiple Space Marines to equal ONE of those brutes.
FFG is not GW - GW have Always stated in ALL their fluff that the level of protection is equal to Astartes - FFG changed it a bit for their RPG -for "reasons" like quite alot of things in fact.
The practilacilites of the armour as we perceive them are irrelevent - their are bullet traps all over the place for all sorts of 4ok things - but again lets go back to the actual GW fluff - and that says.............same level of protection - always.
Game mechanics have no bearing on the actual universe. Saves, weapon skill, strength, etc mean absolutely nothing as they cannot translate into any greater understanding of the universe. They're stats, and they exist for a game. They have no bearing on the "reality" of 40K.
Also, FFG is directly overseen by GW and most of their material is copied from other GW material.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
There are some scale issues. Marines get better the larger the scale.
A single marine might only be able to take 10 guardsmen
10 marines could probably handle 500 guardsmen.
The increase in scale makes the marines better and better
Why do people never consider this to work the other way around? The Guardsmen outnumbering the Space Marines by 50x probably takes advantage of scale a whole lot better than the Marines would (particularly going from a 10x to a 50x number advantage)
I'd place much better bets on the marine vs 10 guardsmen than 10 marines vs 500 guardsmen when looking at if the Marine is going to come out on top.
Ashiraya wrote: I am also fairly sure that the blurb about equal protection has not been in canon material since 3rd edition.
It's probably just as much now as it was then they certainly haven't added anything new in that timespan to sisters fluff
Even if the power armor is the same Astartes have access to terminator armor and centurion armor, which sisters certainly don't have. Also bikes, and drop pods. so it has been fairly well established that equipment and vehicle wise, the sisters are not up to the Astartes level
for example in close quarter battle, and terminator Armour on a less than perfect world, the marine has huge advantages. in both range and close up, there tougher, stronger and can suvive conditions no others can.
open ground it gets more even with power Armour, vs bolters and such but again they have thee toughness and armour advantages.
Sisters have good gear but its no marine level, theres is more powerful,more capable and a wider armourey available to use.
standard las guns, no hope at all, total massacre at range and close combat. they get torn limb from limb
yes plasma/melta but there the only chance, las is just going to make the marine more angry.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
There are some scale issues. Marines get better the larger the scale.
A single marine might only be able to take 10 guardsmen
10 marines could probably handle 500 guardsmen.
The increase in scale makes the marines better and better
Its actually the inverse. At a small scale the Space Marine will do far better. That's why Space Marines are the IoM's precise surgical tool while the Imperial Guard is the IoM's hammer.
one marine vs 100 guard, wel marines are alot more skilled, and capable so they would not take on 100, pick off Smaller groups, ambush, insurgency warfare, traps and has one key advantage, they can go anywhere, they can cross toxic areas no trouble or take them into places humans are going to suffer.
they can beat 100, maybe even 1000 in right place but not quick, over weeks, months of attrition warfare.
jhe90 wrote: one marine vs 100 guard, wel marines are alot more skilled, and capable so they would not take on 100, pick off Smaller groups, ambush, insurgency warfare, traps and has one key advantage, they can go anywhere, they can cross toxic areas no trouble or take them into places humans are going to suffer.
they can beat 100, maybe even 1000 in right place but not quick, over weeks, months of attrition warfare.
Don't forget those guardsmen will also lose a lot of morale and willpower after watching friends getting killed by a giant that disappears as quickly as it came repeatedly
jhe90 wrote: one marine vs 100 guard, wel marines are alot more skilled, and capable so they would not take on 100, pick off Smaller groups, ambush, insurgency warfare, traps and has one key advantage, they can go anywhere, they can cross toxic areas no trouble or take them into places humans are going to suffer.
they can beat 100, maybe even 1000 in right place but not quick, over weeks, months of attrition warfare.
Don't forget those guardsmen will also lose a lot of morale and willpower after watching friends getting killed by a giant that disappears as quickly as it came repeatedly
true, there going to start to lose discipline, order and rank systems at a certain point, then there even easier meat.
and think of environments, jungle, immune to desise and eat anything, mountains, endurance, ruined city close combat ability, desert, water supply, seee's in sand storm. plains, less s but endurence and enchanced eyesight, night vsion. ship, zero g, close combat, o2 supply.
very few places the marine is not a superior fighter.
GKTiberius wrote: Even if the power armor is the same Astartes have access to terminator armor and centurion armor, which sisters certainly don't have. Also bikes, and drop pods. so it has been fairly well established that equipment and vehicle wise, the sisters are not up to the Astartes level
.. except when the Sororitas is used to decapitate a renegade Marine Chapter.
GKTiberius wrote: Even if the power armor is the same Astartes have access to terminator armor and centurion armor, which sisters certainly don't have. Also bikes, and drop pods. so it has been fairly well established that equipment and vehicle wise, the sisters are not up to the Astartes level
.. except when the Sororitas is used to decapitate a renegade Marine Chapter.
Yeah they were once used against the Flesh Tearers.
GKTiberius wrote: Even if the power armor is the same Astartes have access to terminator armor and centurion armor, which sisters certainly don't have. Also bikes, and drop pods. so it has been fairly well established that equipment and vehicle wise, the sisters are not up to the Astartes level
.. except when the Sororitas is used to decapitate a renegade Marine Chapter.
Note the convenient omission of numbers.
I can fully buy that you use 80,000 SoB to take out the leadership of a Marine chapter.
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Bobthehero wrote: Marines aren't ghosts than can go somehow invisible and teleport left and right.
They're gigantic person in less-than-stealthy power armor.
Unless They're Raven Guard.
In which case they are big and OPand super-sneaky.
For example, at least Raven Guard (maybe other Legions too?) used what is literally Crysis-esque stealth fields, and combined with stummers and the like, they can just pick off the Guardsmen with ease. Stalker Bolter or combat blade, the poor mortals won't know what's hit them.
Bobthehero wrote: Marines aren't ghosts than can go somehow invisible and teleport left and right.
They're gigantic person in less-than-stealthy power armor.
As for morale, depends on what regiment is present.
Power armor is nearly invisible on thermal by blending in with the background, and Astartes can move without making a sound people can pick up on. Especially Raven Guard- a single Raven Guard Marine could move through Time's Square in broad daylight without anybody noticing him.
Bobthehero wrote: Marines aren't ghosts than can go somehow invisible and teleport left and right.
They're gigantic person in less-than-stealthy power armor.
As for morale, depends on what regiment is present.
Power armor is nearly invisible on thermal by blending in with the background, and Astartes can move without making a sound people can pick up on. Especially Raven Guard- a single Raven Guard Marine could move through Time's Square in broad daylight without anybody noticing him.
Although to be fair, Raven Guard stealth tech is almost cheating a bit.
jhe90 wrote: one marine vs 100 guard, wel marines are alot more skilled, and capable so they would not take on 100, pick off Smaller groups, ambush, insurgency warfare, traps and has one key advantage, they can go anywhere, they can cross toxic areas no trouble or take them into places humans are going to suffer.
they can beat 100, maybe even 1000 in right place but not quick, over weeks, months of attrition warfare.
Don't forget those guardsmen will also lose a lot of morale and willpower after watching friends getting killed by a giant that disappears as quickly as it came repeatedly
The Imperial Guard morale tends to hold when fighting the horrors of their galaxy, so I wouldn't count on that.
I did not ask for sources about that. I already addressed it. The new marine stuff pop up all the time coming out of nowhere, and suddenly it was there all along. New Sororitas stuff will do the same if they get a new codex. It is only related to how many Sisters miniature line GW wants to produce, not in any way a representation of the marines having a wider variety of wargear.
GKTiberius wrote: When I say forgotten about, I mean they are pretty much left to their own devices and expected to make do with what they have, not literally forgotten about. They are supported nominally, but don't receive near the gear and support as a space marine chapter does.
I would like a source on that.
GKTiberius wrote: as to their roles as guardians and protectors I direct you to the following passage from Lexicanium:
I do not need a source on that, I already know about it.
GKTiberius wrote: As far as quality of equipment is concerned, I hold up the example of the dreadnought to the penitent engine.
The penitent engine is from the Ecclesiarchy, not the Sororitas. They are like the big brothers of arcoflagellants. But anyway, you are comparing apple and oranges here.
GKTiberius wrote: SOB are extremely good at what they do, which is purge humanity of heresy and fight for the ecclesiarchy, but they are no where near on equal footings with SM chapters, as the SM are post humans and operate on a level that average humans cant match. if they could, the Space Marine would serve no purpose. you cannot compare a physically average human in power armor to a 7.5 foot tall post human that was literally genetically engineered to be the best fighters that humanity has to offer and is neurally connected to that suite of armor so it is literally an extension of his body. It is an empirical fact.
Well, that is, like, your opinion, man! And beside, you are using empirical wrong here.
GKTiberius wrote: Also in most fluff barring some sort of Deus Ex Machina from the Emperor or an external force, most stories about the SOB end with most or all of the sisters dying horribly but faithfully in the service of the Emperor, Its kind of their thing.
Nope.
Could you please provide some sources for those specific assumptions:
- The Ecclesiarchy spends more money on cathedrals that it does on sisters' wargear.
- The Ecclesiarchy sometime leave a whole priory to its own device and expect them to make to with what they have rather than give them access to the very best wargear available and treating them lavishly.
- In the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters are expendable.
Wyzilla wrote: A joke with no evidence you constantly fail to provide for. Either cough up evidence or don't bring it up.
A joke needs no evidence. It needs to be funny, that is all. But beside that, evidence of marines being turn-cloak ? Read any bit about Chaos Marines. Space Wolves seems super-good at that, I give them the Oxayotl Special Turn-Cloak Award.
GKTiberius wrote: Even if the power armor is the same Astartes have access to terminator armor and centurion armor, which sisters certainly don't have. Also bikes, and drop pods. so it has been fairly well established that equipment and vehicle wise, the sisters are not up to the Astartes level
.. except when the Sororitas is used to decapitate a renegade Marine Chapter.
Note the convenient omission of numbers.
What numbers? He is saying that Sisters have drop pods when they decapitate a renegade Marine Chapter. Which they do.
And again, again, again, all this equipment will pop out of nowhere when GW decide it is time to release new Sisters models.
SIsters of Battle do not have the power armour Space Marines possess. I'm not sure if this is a serious argument but SM definitely have better equipment than sisters do and a lot of the reason for that is because SM are super human, Sisters are not. Here's a link from Lexicanum about power armour, read overview.
jhe90 wrote: one marine vs 100 guard, wel marines are alot more skilled, and capable so they would not take on 100, pick off Smaller groups, ambush, insurgency warfare, traps and has one key advantage, they can go anywhere, they can cross toxic areas no trouble or take them into places humans are going to suffer.
they can beat 100, maybe even 1000 in right place but not quick, over weeks, months of attrition warfare.
And by the same token, once spotted, the Marine can be engaged, pinned in place by superior numbers and fire, surrounded quite easily, and killed. Supply problems become a huge issue (how many bolter rounds is he carrying? how many grenades? how long will his armor remain powered? what if a servo breaks? etc).
Numbers become real huge force multipliers.
I mean, yeah, German Tiger Tanks were scary machines, often with kill ratios of 10-1 or better on the Eastern Front, but when the Soviet's ultimately were producing 80 T-34's for every Tiger produced, they can shove 11 at the Tiger to kill it with 69 of them simply go around it and engage weaker opposition and destroy rear area logistical support and leave the Tiger stuck 8km behind enemy lines by the time the day is over.
Same applies to Space Marines.
It's not like the Guardsmen also aren't capable of ambushes, traps, etc.
Besides, it's hard to be stealthy and set ambushes and engage in insurgency style warfare when you're 8 feet tall sporting blazingly bright colored armor
Lord Tarkin wrote: SIsters of Battle do not have the power armour Space Marines possess. I'm not sure if this is a serious argument but SM definitely have better equipment than sisters do and a lot of the reason for that is because SM are super human, Sisters are not. Here's a link from Lexicanum about power armour, read overview.
Lexicanum, "Power Armour" wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas use a version of power armour designed for the human shape and size, known as Sororitas Power Armour. Sororitas Power Armour is the only enduring legacy of the reign of Goge Vandire, who commissioned the armour for his Brides of the Emperor, where today it serves the Sisters of Battle. Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.[5]
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]
The 'Sabbat' Pattern Sororitas Helm has been a standard part of this power armour since the mid-38th Millennium. In addition to a comm-link and rebreather unit for limited operation in a total vacuum, the helmet includes full-spectrum filtering and psycho-oculal buffering to assist the (less physically durable) human mind from being rendered insensible by battlefield conditions.[3] For the Battle Sisters of the Calixis Sector, this helm is issued only after they have proven themselves worthy of wearing it.
Mr Morden wrote: Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Game mechanics state it has the same armor rating, and only on TT. FFG rates their armor lower, plus Sisters tend to get slaughtered in the Black Library with very little fuss. Not to mention in simple design Sister power armor is godawful and will lead to the wearer being extremely vulnerable to blunt trauma. And the boobplate works like a massive shot trap that will cause things like bolts to glance right into the sternum.
And no, neither Astartes or Sisters have augmentation anywhere near the level of Skitarii elite besides Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Skitarii of high enough rank get to the level where they have Astartes grade armor for skin and have assault cannons for arms. Not to mention are on a constant high of combat stims that render them fully immune to pain. Skitarii can get to the level where you need multiple Space Marines to equal ONE of those brutes.
FFG is not GW - GW have Always stated in ALL their fluff that the level of protection is equal to Astartes - FFG changed it a bit for their RPG -for "reasons" like quite alot of things in fact.
The practilacilites of the armour as we perceive them are irrelevent - their are bullet traps all over the place for all sorts of 4ok things - but again lets go back to the actual GW fluff - and that says.............same level of protection - always.
Game mechanics have no bearing on the actual universe. Saves, weapon skill, strength, etc mean absolutely nothing as they cannot translate into any greater understanding of the universe. They're stats, and they exist for a game. They have no bearing on the "reality" of 40K.
Also, FFG is directly overseen by GW and most of their material is copied from other GW material.
If you read what I said you will note that I confirmed that all FLUFF not game stats confirms that the Sororitas armour provides same level of PROTECTION - only in FFG's rpg did this change which strangely enough is a game stat - which we (according to you) should ignore - so that all sorted then - even 40k Lex confirms the same level of protection.
The difference is that the Marine is already superhuman and the armour makes them even more formidable - more so than a Sororitas.
Marine fanboys (which includes, by their own admission, the Fantasy Flight team) are contractually incapable of admitting that Sororitas power armour (and everything else Sororitas-related) is anything other than inferior in every way, there's just no arguing with them.
I mean, come on, FFG went so far as to state that Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. So much for "a standart part of the armour".
Furyou Miko wrote: Marine fanboys (which includes, by their own admission, the Fantasy Flight team) are contractually incapable of admitting that Sororitas power armour (and everything else Sororitas-related) is anything other than inferior in every way, there's just no arguing with them.
Welcome to the 40k Background forum, where fanboys & fangirls have their mosh pit. I am pretty sure no one in this thread is innocent in this, and the Marine fans certainly don't seem the worst.
The other factors with marines is, whilst they may be incapacitated by guardsmen in the battle field, the incapacitation may only be seconds, minutes or hours... The likely hood of the guardsmen being about to stop and confirm the kill are slim to none.
Visa versa, the marines may not kill the guardsmen by punching them straight in the face with their power armour, but the guardsmen may be a total vegetable afterwords, a much more unlikely outcome for a marine.
You can cut a marines arms and legs off, it probably won't kill him though as they don't tend to bleed out, a marine doing the same to a guardsmen, or sister of battle is a different story.
I think the fluff is correct that a hunkered down, well defended and prepared squad of marines could probably confront 1000 basically armed guardsmen, visa versa, depending on deployment mechanism, those same 10 marines could probably clear a building of 1000 guardsmen, or a ship.
On the open battlefield though, no.... no chance. It's all context.
There's been a lot of comparison between marines and guardsman and sisters in this thread but this has been discussed for ever in other articles.
How do you think Scitarii and Tempestus Scions compare to Marines?
Scions fit a similar roles to Marines preferring not to fight long drawn out battles while Scitarii are augmented to have a lot of characteristics Marines have such as being programmed warriors and very tough even if the reason they have these traits is different.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The other factors with marines is, whilst they may be incapacitated by guardsmen in the battle field, the incapacitation may only be seconds, minutes or hours... The likely hood of the guardsmen being about to stop and confirm the kill are slim to none.
Visa versa, the marines may not kill the guardsmen by punching them straight in the face with their power armour, but the guardsmen may be a total vegetable afterwords, a much more unlikely outcome for a marine.
You can cut a marines arms and legs off, it probably won't kill him though as they don't tend to bleed out, a marine doing the same to a guardsmen, or sister of battle is a different story.
I think the fluff is correct that a hunkered down, well defended and prepared squad of marines could probably confront 1000 basically armed guardsmen, visa versa, depending on deployment mechanism, those same 10 marines could probably clear a building of 1000 guardsmen, or a ship.
On the open battlefield though, no.... no chance. It's all context.
Indeed - Wearing Power Armour is not what makes Marines awesome - being a Marine makes the awesome - a naked marine - armed or unmared is extremely dangerous- adding extremely effective armour just makes them even more so.
Someone on the forum wrote a cool piece on how a releitvely few Night Lords would be able to destroy an entire modern city with little to no causitlies using their strengths..........
Scitarii are a new thing to consider really - they have always been there but until very recently except for a few novels - very little info.
High grade Scitarii are definately very effective and can match or even exceed a Marine in one area - say speed, strength, senses, combat skill but not all of them - plus Scitarri are often not hugely inteligent - or at least thats how it used to be..........
Taffy17 wrote: There's been a lot of comparison between marines and guardsman and sisters in this thread but this has been discussed for ever in other articles.
How do you think Scitarii and Tempestus Scions compare to Marines?
Scions fit a similar roles to Marines preferring not to fight long drawn out battles while Scitarii are augmented to have a lot of characteristics Marines have such as being programmed warriors and very tough even if the reason they have these traits is different.
Can't you kick Scions out of a spaceship and expect them to survive re-entry ready to stab the nearest bloke who looks at them funny? They're a pretty hardcore lot.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
There are some scale issues. Marines get better the larger the scale.
A single marine might only be able to take 10 guardsmen
10 marines could probably handle 500 guardsmen.
The increase in scale makes the marines better and better
Its actually the inverse. At a small scale the Space Marine will do far better. That's why Space Marines are the IoM's precise surgical tool while the Imperial Guard is the IoM's hammer.
I disagree. At large scale a lot of the guard end up being to far away to effectively fight or if they clump it makes shooting for the marines easier.
In large scale a lot of guardsmen would end up shooting the same marine who might already be knocked out of action.
Also at large scale, the guardsmen will be more likely to break in fear.
Think of medieval knights. 10 peasants could probably take out a knight on horseback if they were deterimed. 100 knights can trample/cut down a nearly limitless amount of peasants.
Lord Tarkin wrote: SIsters of Battle do not have the power armour Space Marines possess.
Yeah, they have a different one, which lacks stuff like recycling urine into nutriment, monitoring the adrenaline level and such stuff. But it does provide the same level of protection and strength enhancement.
Because Sisters do not have holes in their (black carapace) skin to wire all the sensors and stuff from astartes power armor
Lord Tarkin wrote: I'm not sure if this is a serious argument but SM definitely have better equipment than sisters do and a lot of the reason for that is because SM are super human
Mr Morden wrote: Soroitas do have drop pods.........same as they have ships.
The Astartes having Superheavies in current 40k is very new - hence the refrence to GW doig new stuff - as you are no doubt aware - the 40k universe is changing on a weekly basis - witness all the new stuff about the Skitari etc recently.
Skitari have augmentations that make them as close to robots as their magos can - Sororitas - like Asrates can and do have cybernetic replacements.
All GW sources say that Power armour for the Sisters gives same protection but not the same level of cool stuff as the Astartes mainly due to the black carapace interface.
Game mechanics state it has the same armor rating, and only on TT. FFG rates their armor lower, plus Sisters tend to get slaughtered in the Black Library with very little fuss. Not to mention in simple design Sister power armor is godawful and will lead to the wearer being extremely vulnerable to blunt trauma. And the boobplate works like a massive shot trap that will cause things like bolts to glance right into the sternum.
And no, neither Astartes or Sisters have augmentation anywhere near the level of Skitarii elite besides Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Skitarii of high enough rank get to the level where they have Astartes grade armor for skin and have assault cannons for arms. Not to mention are on a constant high of combat stims that render them fully immune to pain. Skitarii can get to the level where you need multiple Space Marines to equal ONE of those brutes.
FFG is not GW - GW have Always stated in ALL their fluff that the level of protection is equal to Astartes - FFG changed it a bit for their RPG -for "reasons" like quite alot of things in fact.
The practilacilites of the armour as we perceive them are irrelevent - their are bullet traps all over the place for all sorts of 4ok things - but again lets go back to the actual GW fluff - and that says.............same level of protection - always.
Game mechanics have no bearing on the actual universe. Saves, weapon skill, strength, etc mean absolutely nothing as they cannot translate into any greater understanding of the universe. They're stats, and they exist for a game. They have no bearing on the "reality" of 40K.
Also, FFG is directly overseen by GW and most of their material is copied from other GW material.
If you read what I said you will note that I confirmed that all FLUFF not game stats confirms that the Sororitas armour provides same level of PROTECTION - only in FFG's rpg did this change which strangely enough is a game stat - which we (according to you) should ignore - so that all sorted then - even 40k Lex confirms the same level of protection.
The difference is that the Marine is already superhuman and the armour makes them even more formidable - more so than a Sororitas.
You mean outdated 3rd edition fluff that's behind by four editions? Oh right. That fluff. Old gets tossed in favor of the new- especially when it doesn't even make sense that Sister power armor could be the same grade as Astartes or Iinquisitors. Again, it's too thin and form fitting. That's bad.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
There are some scale issues. Marines get better the larger the scale.
A single marine might only be able to take 10 guardsmen
10 marines could probably handle 500 guardsmen.
The increase in scale makes the marines better and better
Its actually the inverse. At a small scale the Space Marine will do far better. That's why Space Marines are the IoM's precise surgical tool while the Imperial Guard is the IoM's hammer.
I disagree. At large scale a lot of the guard end up being to far away to effectively fight or if they clump it makes shooting for the marines easier.
In large scale a lot of guardsmen would end up shooting the same marine who might already be knocked out of action.
Also at large scale, the guardsmen will be more likely to break in fear.
Think of medieval knights. 10 peasants could probably take out a knight on horseback if they were deterimed. 100 knights can trample/cut down a nearly limitless amount of peasants.
This is far different than Medieval warfare. The Marines excel at small scale engagements (boarding, taking out enemy leadership, etc.), while the Guard excels at large scale ones.
The thing is that in large scale engagement the Marines expose themselves to weapons that can easily kill them (Medieval Knights didn't have this problem), that combined with their very few numbers mean that the Marines suck at attrition warfare. As one example, in the third book of the World Bearers trilogy several thousands World Bearers went against the Imperial Guard. The kill ratio was 1 Marine for every 50 Guardsmen, which was hilariously in the Guards' favor as they had billions of guardsmen.
The only way the Marines can defeat the Guard in a large scale engagement is if the morale of the Guard fails. But if it holds the Marines are steamrolled.
Wyzilla wrote: especially when it doesn't even make sense that Sister power armor could be the same grade as Astartes or Iinquisitors. Again, it's too thin and form fitting. That's bad.
How does it not make sense, and how is this thin and form-fitting?
Ashiraya wrote: Absence of Black Carapace also makes it far more clumsy and unwieldy.
It is not clumsy or unwieldy, it just does not act as a second skin. This mean that if a marine and a sister wanted to read something in braille, then the sister would need to remove the armor, while the marine could keep it. So, it is indeed an advantage for the marine. But usually, on a battlefield, people do not read braille. The aim, pull triggers, run, hide and all that. In which scenario is the second skin stuff going to help?
The difference is that the Sister's armor doesn't boost their natural abilities, they are essentially humans in power armor. That's why they are S3 T3 while the Marines are S4 T4.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that the Sister's armor doesn't boost their natural abilities
I have no idea what you mean by abilities. The armor hugely enhance their strength. Just look at them carrying heavy bolters like it is nothing.
It also involves a ton of targeting and visual enhancement stuff in the helmet.
So, what do you mean here?
Tyran wrote: That's why they are S3 T3 while the Marines are S4 T4.
The S4 T4 is completely unrelated to the armor, it only comes from the implant. See scouts for that.
You mean outdated 3rd edition fluff that's behind by four editions? Oh right. That fluff. Old gets tossed in favor of the new- especially when it doesn't even make sense that Sister power armor could be the same grade as Astartes or Iinquisitors. Again, it's too thin and form fitting. That's bad.
So you know what the Sororitas armour is made from - you have worked out the specific material's strengths and weaknesses - oh wait no you haven't..... cos you can't, none of us can
Its 40k - lots of stuff doesn;t make sense to us - Leman Russ tanks - seen the recent arguments about its design, chainswords that would work?
ah so now you are changing your argument (yet again) so we should ignore both the fluff and the rules and instead go with whatever you believe is correct in the abscence of anything new - thats an awesome way to look at it - very sensible and not at all stupid..........
Going back to the axctual discussion:
Its pretty clear from all the actual GW (rather than wishlsiting) material that the Sororitas armour does not have all of the strength enchancements, the reaction time is not as good as Astartes due to the lack of the black carapace. The Marine power armour is like a second skin as I understand it - they are able to keep their ultra fast reaction time.
Astartes Marine armour is awesome - not as awesome as the wearers and only a bit more awesome than that worn by the Sororitas.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that the Sister's armor doesn't boost their natural abilities
I have no idea what you mean by abilities. The armor hugely enhance their strength. Just look at them carrying heavy bolters like it is nothing. It also involves a ton of targeting and visual enhancement stuff in the helmet. So, what do you mean here?
Tyran wrote: That's why they are S3 T3 while the Marines are S4 T4.
The S4 T4 is completely unrelated to the armor, it only comes from the implant. See scouts for that.
Yeah I fethed up that second part. I meant that the SoB are humans (S3 T3) while the SM aren't (S4 T4). And that's one of the reasons why SM are superior.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that the Sister's armor doesn't boost their natural abilities
I have no idea what you mean by abilities. The armor hugely enhance their strength. Just look at them carrying heavy bolters like it is nothing.
It also involves a ton of targeting and visual enhancement stuff in the helmet.
So, what do you mean here?
Tyran wrote: That's why they are S3 T3 while the Marines are S4 T4.
The S4 T4 is completely unrelated to the armor, it only comes from the implant. See scouts for that.
Yeah I fethed up that second part. I meant that the SoB are humans (S3 T3) while the SM aren't (S4 T4). And that's one of the reasons why SM are superior.
Only in the sense they are faster, stronger, more durable, heal really quickly, Eidetic memory, dont really suffer ageing issues, can spit acid, have redundant organs - apart from that what have the Astartes ever done for us
Tyran wrote: Marines dedicate all their lives (which can be quite long) and have the best wargear available.
Actually, “best wargear” is certainly very unclear here. An imperial guard carrying a plasma pistol has better wargear than a marine holding a bolt pistol. And I stand by my point : the Sisters have more willpower and more dedication. Marines care for personal power, marines care for their life, and all that. Sisters will put their faith above all that. The end result is that Sisters can reach the Marine's level without any implant. And also that they do not Badad War or Wolf of Fenris against the Imperium.
Tyran wrote: Marines dedicate all their lives (which can be quite long) and have the best wargear available.
Actually, “best wargear” is certainly very unclear here. An imperial guard carrying a plasma pistol has better wargear than a marine holding a bolt pistol. And I stand by my point : the Sisters have more willpower and more dedication. Marines care for personal power, marines care for their life, and all that. Sisters will put their faith above all that. The end result is that Sisters can reach the Marine's level without any implant. And also that they do not Badad War or Wolf of Fenris against the Imperium.
No, the end result is that Sisters are far more resistant to chaos corruption. That doesn't means they are at the same level as the Marines.
It is not clumsy or unwieldy, it just does not act as a second skin. This mean that if a marine and a sister wanted to read something in braille, then the sister would need to remove the armor, while the marine could keep it. So, it is indeed an advantage for the marine. But usually, on a battlefield, people do not read braille. The aim, pull triggers, run, hide and all that. In which scenario is the second skin stuff going to help?
Sabathiel is canon. Deal with it. As is her traitor Order.
Lower number of traitor SoB can easily be ascribed to
1. Lower number of SoB, and much shorter time where they have been active
2. Shorter life means less exposure to corruption
3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption.
Seriously, corruption is subtle and works over time. A SoB who dies in battle at age 45 is going to be exposed to much less sources of corruption (open Warp rifts, etc.) than a Marine who dies in battle at age 300.
Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear?
I cannot. Your leg is in Sweden, and I am in France!
Ashiraya wrote: 2. Shorter life means less exposure to corruption
Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live?
Ashiraya wrote: 3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption.
Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos.
Ashiraya wrote: Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear?
Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live?
Battle Sisters are not Inquisitors.
Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos
Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics. If your mind is hardened, you won't get corrupted by killing mere heretics, whether you're Tempestus Scion or Grey Knight.
Are they really that often sent against CSM? I can only think of one or two occasions, and SoB usually get manhandled (heh) in the process.
Because they Act of Faith instead!
But they do Fear!
Looks like your average Ministorum Priest is better at faith than your elite Sororitas. )))
No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.
Ashiraya wrote: Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics.
Do you know who summons daemons? Simple heretics. Who complete Chaos rituals? Simple heretics. Who has very strong psykers? Simple heretics.
Simple heretics can do a whole lot of harm. Especially about corruption.
Ashiraya wrote: Are they really that often sent against CSM?
Fighting CSM is no more likely than fighting other heretics to turn you. Actually, I would say it is less likely for most CSM warbands. How likely are some Khorne berzerkers to try to corrupt you? How likely are Thousand Sons to try?
No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.
Source?
Pretty much all high ranking Imperials have access to it - however I don;t really see that we can really compare longevity of Sisters (or high ranking Imperial officers of whichever branch) with the "potential" lifespan of the Astartes.
I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it, second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does. as the armor and servos move in response to the body but not with it, so there is always a momentary drag. Training helps compensate for it, but if you don't have the neural interface it is something that the soldier has to deal with. and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work. it is an exoskeleton based power suit. it works that way in starship troopers, which the space marine concept is based on and it is stated in the entry for the black carapace in both the current codex and the index astartes where the original Power armor entry fluff was published.
Mr Morden wrote: I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.
GKTiberius wrote: Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it
I am pretty sure I read some fluff saying they it does.
GKTiberius wrote: second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does.
I have never, ever read of any kind of lag in power armor. There was no initiative penalty for wearing power armor in Inquisitor, and I doubt there was in any RPG ever.
GKTiberius wrote: and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work.
Mr Morden wrote: I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.
Isn't physical strength and durability one of the main things they test potential solider for in anceint and modern battlefields? And one of the big reasons cited why women (rightly or wrongly) are less suitable for warfare?
Furyou Miko wrote: Marine fanboys (which includes, by their own admission, the Fantasy Flight team) are contractually incapable of admitting that Sororitas power armour (and everything else Sororitas-related) is anything other than inferior in every way, there's just no arguing with them.
I mean, come on, FFG went so far as to state that Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. So much for "a standart part of the armour".
Well whats the purpose behind the black carapace if it doesn't increase the effectiveness of the armor? Don't the sororitas wear their armor like any non-spacemarine? In a more inefficient, non-interfaced manner?
Don't you have to move out of the area explosion to avoid taking damage? There's no way a Marine could dodge an Earthshaker explosion radius, let alone a few dozen.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Are you arguing that using a random mechanic from an apparently badly designed RPG is a valid substitute for any kind of logic and common sense?
40K neither has any logic or common sense. What franchise do you think you're in the fanbase of? Halo?
Blast weapons don't need to hit you to kill you, and the Hard Target modifier isn't sufficient to make a weapon with a large blast miss by enough to matter. If the weapon's Blast rating is higher than your AGI Bonus, then you cannot even make a Dodge test against the attack. Even divided, it's more damage than a Space Marine from DW can handle, on average.
48d10+120 Pen 8 becomes 4d10+10 Pen 8. Average damage is 32 damage (5.5x4+10), with 8 points of the SM's PA ignored, reducing torso AP to 2.
Average SM Toughness Bonus is 6, with Unnatural Toughness 3, so reduces damage by 9 points, with an extra +2 damage soaked from Armor. SM takes 21 Wounds from the first shell. Second shell brings him to 42 damage (and probably Critical Wounds), 3rd shell kills him, hands down, burn a Fate Point.
To compare Space Marines to othr humans soldiers in term of worth is rather hard, but it's actually rather easy with Sisters of Battle because they share so much in common. For one, they basically have the same gear. Sororitas power armor offer about the same proctection, but are overall lower quality because they don't have all the kinks and options of Space Marines ones like strength boosting or mag boots. Sororitas bolters are a little bit better overall, but Space Marines ones, are just has powerful. Chainswords, monoswords, power swords and other close combat weapon are virtually identical since there never was a mention of it their models and technologie being of different quality so they fall under the curtain of that quote from the Witch Hunter Codex: «The Sisters of Battle are exceptionnaly well equipped, with weapons and armor the equal of any Space Marine Chapter.»
They also have comparable training. From infancy to adulthood. I would be tempted to give a small edge to Sisters of Battle since they have only one none excellence base criteria to become one (being a women) of them while Space Marines have three (being a men, being compatible with the geneseed, survive the surgeries). While of course their training is very different, it's of overall similar quality and offer similar results. Finaly, both can gain similar amount of experience. Space marines can live centuries thanks to their biologie while Sisters of Battle can receive rejuvenat treatment that gives them similar longevity.
Their difference comes down to their physical capacity where the Space Marines is obviously superior except when it comes to ranged encounter where things gets more balanced because of the technologie involved. Overall I would say a Space Marines is worth 2.75 Sister of Battle in raw combat strength.
When you go down to Scions I would say 4.25 since Scions have better ranged weapons, but worse armor and slightly inferior training.
When it comes to skitarii (at least the basic ones like rangers and vanguard) I would put it at 4 since their weapons are weaker than those of the skitarii and have a disadvantage when it comes to accuracy.
And each Space Marines would be worth around 16 guardsmen from regular planets and maybe 10 Cadians or Krieg since these are supposed to be superior. Of course this only consider a single marines. In squad, these numbers will be affected by the Astartes incredible tactical acumen and teamwork.
Ashiraya wrote: Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
... it's an FFG game. Their encumbrance and movement rules are hilariously terrible, even before Space Marines get involved.
In my current Dark Heresy game, one of the characters is a 17 year old Tribal Psyker. She's *slightly* tougher than the average, but has devoted none of her XP to buying increases in STR or TGH, and can still strap on almost 200kg and walk around like it's nothing.
They are in FFG's game, where you play Movie Marines but, still, there's no escaping the scenario provided. Doesn't matter how fast they are, the way a Blast Ordnance weapon works, it doesn't save them.
Ashiraya wrote: Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).
Ashiraya wrote: Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).
Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.
Swastakowey wrote: Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour?
No, they are arguably far faster. But FFG is just a game.
How are they faster? Please explain... Unless they take off their armour, slim down and run on all fours for short sprints then they cannot be faster. They would probably need a tail for stability in this case. Sleek fur maybe?
Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.
You are aware that this is science fiction, right?
Space Marines are clad in phlebotinum plating, they fire phlebotinum guns, hell, after all their enhancements they are pretty much MADE of phlebotinum.
Ashiraya wrote: Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).
Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.
Well, this is a setting with fething daemons, it doesn't cares about what is or isn't possible.
So, demons are something we dont know about, so sure they aren't following any laws we have. Space Marines have legs... we know how legs work along with how things move and their limits. So if you don't care don't defend it. Simply say Ï like cartoons"and leave it at that.
I however was simply pointing out how absurd the idea of 52km an hour Space marines are. It is impossible to speed up that quickly and then stop within 5 seconds. Even Eldar, the race of fantasy perfection have teleportation to overcome this issue. Space marines do not.
Ashiraya wrote: Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).
Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.
Swastakowey wrote: Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour?
No, they are arguably far faster. But FFG is just a game.
How are they faster? Please explain... Unless they take off their armour, slim down and run on all fours for short sprints then they cannot be faster. They would probably need a tail for stability in this case. Sleek fur maybe?
Say it with me now.
"It's Space Fantasy, I should stop worrying about physics and nod and accept that everything runs on rule of cool."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swastakowey wrote: So, demons are something we dont know about, so sure they aren't following any laws we have. Space Marines have legs... we know how legs work along with how things move and their limits. So if you don't care don't defend it. Simply say Ï like cartoons"and leave it at that.
I however was simply pointing out how absurd the idea of 52km an hour Space marines are. It is impossible to speed up that quickly and then stop within 5 seconds. Even Eldar, the race of fantasy perfection have teleportation to overcome this issue. Space marines do not.
I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.
If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.
52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.
Swastakowey wrote: I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.
If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.
52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.
People trying to force IGhammer into a setting that is all about superhero Space Marines wrestling alien monsters and demons is beyond me. CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC:
Accept thine place as lowly cannon fodder with flashlight guns and firecracker artillery, heathen. Thou shalt not find thine realism in this sanctuary of madness!
It's also fine to like 40k this OTT. No need to be condescending about it.
Swastakowey wrote: I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.
If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.
52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.
52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.
I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.
Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.
Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.
Swastakowey wrote: I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.
If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.
52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.
52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.
I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.
Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.
Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.
Woah woah... 52km is not impressive? Being able to reach that speed (something my car... designed to move me quickly, cannot do) in 5 seconds while having the ability to stop within that quickly would make me a billionaire. Its not understanding of science its common sense mate. Anybody can look on the road and see all this happening.
Secondly, the idea of being super soldiers is there... but the execution is poor. They dress for Napoleonic warfare, are huge, heavy, expensive and carry the most logistically improbable guns known to man. That is a poor execution of the best soldiers known to man. When all their bonuses are actually negatives it defeats the purpose. Saying things like "they are silent guerilla warfare specialists who ambush and wipe out armies with rapid speed" doesnt make sense when everything they are/have works against this. Its like having a species of cow like mamals and then saying they are the top predator. When they have non of the characteristics to get them there. Marines are smart (apparently) but are depicted as never retreating, often instead finding a nice hill to die on. They are portrayed as fast yet have none of the characteristics of speed beyond ït says they do". The list goes on.
Its not hard to make things scary but at the same time make them scary on a real basis. Why was the first aliens movie scary? Because that was the first time a "realistic" bad creature was portrayed. It wasn't a cartoonish bug man or a Giant spider with wings. It was actually a thought out killer. Of course this changed as movies went on... but the point is things can be scary and at the same time not sound like a comedy.
I did silently whine about Iron Man (and many others did too) shrugging off a tank round by the way. He should have died right there. I just don't like marvel enough to care.
Anyway I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of the premise and the only counter is "it says so and is cool". And thats fine if you like it.
Swastakowey wrote: I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.
If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.
52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.
52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.
I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.
Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.
Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.
Woah woah... 52km is not impressive? Being able to reach that speed (something my car... designed to move me quickly, cannot do) in 5 seconds while having the ability to stop within that quickly would make me a billionaire. Its not understanding of science its common sense mate. Anybody can look on the road and see all this happening.
Secondly, the idea of being super soldiers is there... but the execution is poor. They dress for Napoleonic warfare, are huge, heavy, expensive and carry the most logistically improbable guns known to man. That is a poor execution of the best soldiers known to man. When all their bonuses are actually negatives it defeats the purpose. Saying things like "they are silent guerilla warfare specialists who ambush and wipe out armies with rapid speed" doesnt make sense when everything they are/have works against this. Its like having a species of cow like mamals and then saying they are the top predator. When they have non of the characteristics to get them there. Marines are smart (apparently) but are depicted as never retreating, often instead finding a nice hill to die on. They are portrayed as fast yet have none of the characteristics of speed beyond ït says they do". The list goes on.
Its not hard to make things scary but at the same time make them scary on a real basis. Why was the first aliens movie scary? Because that was the first time a "realistic" bad creature was portrayed. It wasn't a cartoonish bug man or a Giant spider with wings. It was actually a thought out killer. Of course this changed as movies went on... but the point is things can be scary and at the same time not sound like a comedy.
I did silently whine about Iron Man (and many others did too) shrugging off a tank round by the way. He should have died right there. I just don't like marvel enough to care.
Anyway I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of the premise and the only counter is "it says so and is cool". And thats fine if you like it.
52km is so unimpressive by the standards of fiction that it doesn't really bat an eye. Not when fantasy is full of examples of heroes casually going supersonic or even some running faster than light itself without experiencing any of the consequences of it. Like, who the hell is going to care that the human body can't pull those speeds? If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story. But if you're writing high fantasy? Man feth the astrophysics course, here, have two guys wrestling so hard that the planet shatters and breaks beneath their feet.
And again, you're arguing from a watsonian perspective when the only thing that matters is the doylist one. Yes there are watsonian issues with the space marines. But from the doylist stand point of them being essentially the knightly brotherhoods of yesteryear except in space and given space fantasy updates (much like how the Jedi are Samurai Knights in space given a few updates here and there) there's nothing really wrong. They're big, burly knightly warriors who stand head and shoulders above the capabilities of the rabble who are less blessed by circumstance or training than they. Only whereas knights simply had far better equipment, training, diet, and education to the peasant levies, the Space Marines are physically superior, thus creating a further divide between this post-human warrior nobility and normal people.
Also, in the comics, Iron Man can shrug off nuclear warheads to the face with zero damage to him or his armor (currently it wouldn't even make him flinch) and his current suit is capable of defeating all the world's conventional militaries in a few seconds (indeed at this point the army literally does not matter to any high-end metahuman in marvel or DC). The movie version is very much toned down.
See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".
I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.
Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.
Swastakowey wrote: See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".
I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.
Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.
There needs to be a sensible balance.
Space Marine limits are pretty well in the realm of what we comic book readers call "street level characters." Essentially it's an army of spidermen who trade spider sense for armor and web shooters for bolters. They're not especially superpowerful compared to what else can be found in the setting, they're just substantially superior to humans. So what if they make guardsmen seem weak and small individually? That's the whole point. This is a fantasy setting of epic heroes and dastardly villains. The Space Marines are that band of few who push back the tides of darkness through superhuman feats despite being outmatched in numbers, which is just like virtually every other heroic organization in the entire history of fantasy. Like, it's the same operating principle behind things like the Grey Wardens in Dragon age or the Avengers in Marvel. The bad guys may outnumber the good guys, but the elite of the good guys generally tears right through the rank and file of the bad guys for the epic confrontation with the main villain who drives the plot and provides the main fight.
I'm also going to take a few seconds to laugh at your misconception of medieval warfare before continuing because you clearly don't know much about pre-industrial conflict. A small handful of knights was more than enough to completely shatter an army of hundreds if not thousands of peasant levies. Once maybe twenty knights got the charge in, the peasants generally broke, ran and fled for their lives once the charge ran right through their shaky defenses. Knights did not dominate warfare until the mass adoption of pike and shot tactics because of the honor system, they did it because there was legitimately nothing that could stop a knight charge (short of another knight charge) over good terrain barring horse archery until said pike and shot tactics. Battles like crecy and agincourt were won by the guy with fewer knights because of a comedy of errors on the French's part and utterly abysmal terrain. However, small formations like the Teutonic Knights could, and would routinely shatter just about everything they came across. Lithuania had virtually nothing that could stop a well organized charge by the Teutonic Knights until it made an alliance with Poland to get the numbers to oppose the Teutonic and Livonian orders.
It's about telling a story, and the Space Marine's niche is basically being the A-team, the Avengers to the Imperial Guard's SHIELD.
Swastakowey wrote: See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".
I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.
Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.
There needs to be a sensible balance.
There is some degree of difference between Marines moving faster etc. than what we believe is possible with today's science, and lifting a planet.
If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).
Pretty much every faction has psykers (or tech) that can do crazy stuff like stop time, for example. Seriously. Stop time. And you think running fast is unrealistic?
Swastakowey wrote: See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".
I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.
Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.
There needs to be a sensible balance.
Space Marine limits are pretty well in the realm of what we comic book readers call "street level characters." Essentially it's an army of spidermen who trade spider sense for armor and web shooters for bolters. They're not especially superpowerful compared to what else can be found in the setting, they're just substantially superior to humans. So what if they make guardsmen seem weak and small individually? That's the whole point. This is a fantasy setting of epic heroes and dastardly villains. The Space Marines are that band of few who push back the tides of darkness through superhuman feats despite being outmatched in numbers, which is just like virtually every other heroic organization in the entire history of fantasy. Like, it's the same operating principle behind things like the Grey Wardens in Dragon age or the Avengers in Marvel. The bad guys may outnumber the good guys, but the elite of the good guys generally tears right through the rank and file of the bad guys for the epic confrontation with the main villain who drives the plot and provides the main fight.
I'm also going to take a few seconds to laugh at your misconception of medieval warfare before continuing because you clearly don't know much about pre-industrial conflict. A small handful of knights was more than enough to completely shatter an army of hundreds if not thousands of peasant levies. Once maybe twenty knights got the charge in, the peasants generally broke, ran and fled for their lives once the charge ran right through their shaky defenses. Knights did not dominate warfare until the mass adoption of pike and shot tactics because of the honor system, they did it because there was legitimately nothing that could stop a knight charge (short of another knight charge) over good terrain barring horse archery until said pike and shot tactics. Battles like crecy and agincourt were won by the guy with fewer knights because of a comedy of errors on the French's part and utterly abysmal terrain. However, small formations like the Teutonic Knights could, and would routinely shatter just about everything they came across. Lithuania had virtually nothing that could stop a well organized charge by the Teutonic Knights until it made an alliance with Poland to get the numbers to oppose the Teutonic and Livonian orders.
It's about telling a story, and the Space Marine's niche is basically being the A-team, the Avengers to the Imperial Guard's SHIELD.
No... Knights did not simply go round lopping off heads. Did you know Cavalry will refuse to charge into something they cannot go through? All you need to do is stand in a group of 50 people and the best the horses can do is go around you. Horses will not run into something on purpose. So how then can a knight on horse back take out hundreds if all they need to do is stand there? Heck in the Napoleonic era infantry used to just lie down so horses would run over them since the swords could not reach the ground and the horse would not stand on a person. Knights fell to crossbows with ease. I mean if you dont know how cavalry works then dont try use it as an example. Formations win battles not knights. Knights only win if the enemy is scattered. If the enemy dont scatter the horses refuse to charge. Its not like the movies where the horses crash into people...
Also dismounted knights had plenty of means to defeat them such as hooks and other heavier weapons. Knights were powerful, but at the end of the day they dont win wars. They need support via other formations and groups.
In short its more complex than you make it out to be.
I wont argue Space marines any more. Its clear you love superman and I love facts. Nothing wrong with either... (well ish.. once clearly sucks )
Swastakowey wrote: See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".
I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.
Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.
There needs to be a sensible balance.
There is some degree of difference between Marines moving faster etc. than what we believe is possible with today's science, and lifting a planet.
If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).
Pretty much every faction has psykers (or tech) that can do crazy stuff like stop time, for example. Seriously. Stop time. And you think running fast is unrealistic?
Yep, do I have to like it all though? IG may have psykers. See mine don't. But I dont have an issue with IG psykers because most are for communication. Which is a cool concept. Stopping time cannot be possible and is beyond stupid. Using a psyker to send a message is a nice balance. Which is better than lifting planets. To me the possibility of a Space marine moving faster than a startled cow (cow would be faster) is about as believable as a baby throwing planets in space.
Kain wrote: If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story.
Then you learned a really bad lesson. You can only throw physics out as long as the story is still plausible. Nobody is going to care if, after spending a few hours doing calculations, it turns out that your thermodynamics math was slightly off. But if the average reader's reaction is "WTF that makes no sense" then you have a problem. If you're writing in a genre that isn't "ridiculous superhero stories" and a character punches someone so hard that the planet breaks in half then nobody is going to be able to suspend disbelief and accept that your story makes any sense.
The problem with space marines is that their high-end abilities break this rule. If you think about it for even a moment they don't make any sense, and it really ruins the story. So IMO the way to treat those high-end examples is as religious myths and in-universe propaganda. A space marine can't literally survive a direct hit from a titan, just like Achilles (if a real person ever existed to inspire the character) couldn't literally survive any wound that wasn't to his foot. But the Imperium needs its martyrs and heroes to inspire its population to cling desperately to survival for a few more minutes, so an army of elite soldiers with a power level roughly equivalent to their tabletop rules becomes a larger-than-life band of epic warriors with god-like powers and almost unimaginable victories in battle.
Well, then that is just you ignoring most of the setting., Swasta.
I mean, there is actually wrong with that. The lore lets you cherrypick. But doing that and calling everything else stupid is not the way to go.
I disagree with BobtheHero's interpretation, for example, but it isn't stupid. It's pretty cool, in fact. I just prefer mine, and I can't have both at the same time!
Ashiraya wrote: If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).
Because you can easily ignore most of it as long as you treat the written fluff as Imperial mythology (much like every real-world example of religious myths), not literal truth. If you consider the power level of stuff in the tabletop game to be a reasonably accurate representation of the "real" armies then it's no less plausible than scifi in general.
Ashiraya wrote: But the tabletop game is utterly absurd in itself.
That's why I said "as a reasonably accurate representation", not "as literal truth". So, power armor probably doesn't have exactly a 33% chance of failing when hit by a lasgun (and how it fails has more to do with accumulated damage than individual attempts to breach it), but the ~11% chance of wounding a marine with a lasgun shot is at least close to the truth. Whether it's a 15% chance or a 5% chance the end result is approximately the same: the marine can probably survive stray lasgun fire at long range or risk taking a burst on his armor to duck out from cover and kill a target, but it's not complete invulnerability and the marine still has to use cover/suppressing fire/etc because concentrated lasgun fire will eventually overwhelm his armor and kill him.
I'd also point out that suffering from delusions that 40K is realistic at all is just that, suffering from delusions. 40K is Warhammer Fantasy in space. Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts), Chaos Warriors are Chaos Space Marines. The Empire are represented by the Imperial Guard and the various other imperial factions. High Elves/Wood Elves are clearly Eldar and Exodites, while the Dark Elves are Dark Eldar. Etc. It's fantasy. You're in the wrong franchise if you're looking for Science Fiction- 40K has never been that.
Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have. Their basic firearms violate conservation of energy somewhere as a campfire somehow charges their ammunition to such a degree that it provides kilojoule lasers.
Plus there's the problem of using infantry at all, when at the Imperium's tech level battles should be conducted entirely by ships with planets being abandoned in favor of post-scarcity mobile artificial planets (which the Imperium, Eldar, and Tau all have) with soldiers being completely irrelevant as battles are decided by precise lance battery fire. "Muh TT" isn't an excuse, because the TT is actually MORE absurd than 40K in many areas- like naked humans being able to tank shots from 12mm or 20mm weapons without being turned into a gory pulp. 40K doesn't make sense. You seriously are living in hilarious denial if you think otherwise. Every faction is utterly stupid and will give a very painful headache if you look at them too long- the Guard just disguise their stupidity somewhat better.
And "it's propaganda" doesn't work at all in any attempt to wash away the Black Library. Those books can't exist in universe as either the material contained within them would get anyone and everyone found possessing them executed, or they can't exist to begin with as the narrator is omnipotent and discussing secrets that are only known by like ten people in the entire Milky Way. GW's propaganda claim can't be used to justify or ignore anything, as it cannot work in application given the nature of the Imperium and many factions.
Trying to justify 40K as anything other than a toned down Marvel is hilarious when there's giant bugs that violate thermodynamics roaming around the universe or literal hellspawned daemons that drive people who gaze upon them insane.
Taffy17 wrote: I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?
Well, take into account that the Marines are worth 100 Guardsmen because a squad of Marines would come into contact with only a limited amount of guardsmen at time and heavy/special weapons Guardsmen would probably be primary targets.
In case of Sisters of Battle the proportions would be very different because they both wear power armour and use Boltguns as basic weapons. Still they don't have the black carapace and other enhancements of the Astartes.
If you consider that Usain Bolt can accelerate to 44.7kph in about 7 seconds, with most of that speed being attributed to his ratio of fast twitch fibers (something marines would have in abundance, along with power armour supplementing this power based muscle fibers), his long limbs ( limbs that would be longer in 8ft marines) and a long stride distance (a marine could replicate this quite easyily), then take into account Usain has a sloppy accretion phase/technique (some biomechanists and physiologists state bolt could reach his top velocity possibly half a second earlier), it wouldn't be inconceivable that marines could double this due to their augmentations, and their increased mass being dissipated by increased muscles strength, power and power armour, plus probably increased acceleration, a marine could be running at a speed of 52kph in about 3 seconds.
For those stating that the weight of the marine would make them unable to move faster, just remember the 'engine' that is powering that weight. A near enough doubled cardio-respiratory system, with an endocrine system tailored to get near enough maximum levels of performance for a prolonged period, incredible recovery and adaptability to environments and lastly, what must be assumed is the most impeccable nutritional diet devised considering the amount of muscles it is constantly building/maintaining whilst also allowing for said performance.
Marines are literally superhuman. Absolutely ridiculous. That is also why they would wipe the floor with sisters of battle or guardsmen. It's hard to use certain tactics against marines like ambush etc when they can hear your from so far away and can run through most 'common' walls with ease to close the distance too you.
Skater are something else though, and I do not know enough about them to make a comparison to marines.
So yeah anyway, it depends on how fast the ordinance shell is, if the marine knows the direction it is coming from, whether it's smart and can track him and finally, how far it is away. No good hearing the shell, if it has travelled miles, it's going to be right on top of you already. They could most certainly outrun it's blast radius if they only need to acerbate to 52kmh, it just depends on how much prior warning they'd have for this, which is probably little.
Wyzilla wrote: Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have.
I think that Imperial Guard turning from Marines Lite into a completely different force in Space Marine and 2nd Ed was horribly stupid. It really doesn't make sense to make starship-transported forces a primitive cannon fodder.
Wyzilla wrote: Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have.
I think that Imperial Guard turning from Marines Lite into a completely different force in Space Marine and 2nd Ed was horribly stupid. It really doesn't make sense to make starship-transported forces a primitive cannon fodder.
Well they transport dissolved protein goo with starships, so it's only logical that they transport cannon folders with starships as well...
No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.
Source?
IIRC Canoness Carmina who filed a complaint about the Flesh Tearers at Armageddon had been a battlefield commander for almost a century. "Chapter Master Seth offered me no tactical counsel, but I've become used to that from the Adeptus Astartes after nearly a century of leading my sisters in battle." She didn't spring to command at age 16, and a Canoness usually leads from the front just as a marine commander does - she has to be in shape to do battle.
A regular sister isn't likely to receive too much in the way of juvenat treatments or augmetics, but a good leader will be expected to accept whatever gifts the Ecclesiarchy can give her so she can serve longer. That's all she does.
Can't rule out the weird 'faith' effect, or as I like to put it, emperor demonic possession extending their life as well.
There's a reason why that Thor bloke in the fluff was so good at what he does, he certainly had help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, about Sisters being used to take out marines.
Whilst ideally, marines themselves would be used for this purpose, or if the right location permitted (open battle) the guard could also do this. I just don't see many scenarios where sisters would be better than marines at the task.
Sisters tend to fight in close fire fights, that really plays exactly into marines hands, giving the marines the advantage where their physical augmentations can really manifest in an extreme advantage.
Now, the flip side to this, and what hasn't been mentioned of as far as I am aware is, advanced tactics the sisters may use. Whilst it stands to reason, that marines are capable of adapting and utilising varied and in-depth strategy and tactics due to their combat education, maybe the high lords have means of dealing with marines when needed and coerce with the ecclesiarchy with certain training regimes just for dealing with marines. I don't know enough about combat warfare to come up with said ideas, but that could stand to reason as one of the ways sisters can actually stand up to marines.
Kain wrote: If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story.
Then you learned a really bad lesson. You can only throw physics out as long as the story is still plausible. Nobody is going to care if, after spending a few hours doing calculations, it turns out that your thermodynamics math was slightly off. But if the average reader's reaction is "WTF that makes no sense" then you have a problem. If you're writing in a genre that isn't "ridiculous superhero stories" and a character punches someone so hard that the planet breaks in half then nobody is going to be able to suspend disbelief and accept that your story makes any sense.
The problem with space marines is that their high-end abilities break this rule. If you think about it for even a moment they don't make any sense, and it really ruins the story. So IMO the way to treat those high-end examples is as religious myths and in-universe propaganda. A space marine can't literally survive a direct hit from a titan, just like Achilles (if a real person ever existed to inspire the character) couldn't literally survive any wound that wasn't to his foot. But the Imperium needs its martyrs and heroes to inspire its population to cling desperately to survival for a few more minutes, so an army of elite soldiers with a power level roughly equivalent to their tabletop rules becomes a larger-than-life band of epic warriors with god-like powers and almost unimaginable victories in battle.
Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.
Admittedly, internal consistency of depictions is not warhammer's strong suit, but generally most good authors find a level they like and stick with it. Anthony Reynolds has Word bearers who can take out fourteen billion guardsmen and three hundred loyalist marines with only 7000 chaos space marines and a demi-legion of titans because that's how he perceives the astartes. Meanwhile Sandy Mitchell and Dan Abnett tend to have Space Marines as quite overwhelming adversaries, but still very much defeatable by normal humans with some luck and stacking the odds in your favor; with the former even having a Khornate berzerker humiliated in a melee duel by a commissar. And some authors rather consistently have chaos space marines die to the imperial guard like slightly larger varieties of cannon fodder than their cultist and traitor guardsman equivalents. I'm entirely fine with all of these so long as the author consistently sticks to a power level, though I find that the latter is rather thematic breaking given that Chaos Astartes shouldn't just be slightly bigger mooks for the guard to slaughter given that they're the elite of team evil.
Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.
To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.
I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.
Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.
Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.
So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.
To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.
I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.
Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.
Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.
So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.
Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.
I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.
And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.
To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.
I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.
Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.
Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.
So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.
Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.
I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.
And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.
Cool, are legs magical in 40k? No they are legs like all other legs. They should follow the rules of legs. I think IG have many things that need improvement too. Like the fact that millions fight for planets instead of hundreds of millions ot the Leman Russ. Except that at least the Guard has a balance of stupidity and sensible... unlike Space Marines which is all stupidity.
I dont claim they are fast. Any body who can read would know I made no such claim... but others did. I simply pointed out how silly the speed claimed is and everybody got upset that their magic marines got insulted.
1 Million Marines is tiny. You know it took millions of men to fight for stalingrad. The popeing battle had 1 million men a side and it escalated from there. For part of a city. Its a problem I have with the Guard too. The numbers are too small for anything. Also why would Space Marines be good at anything you just suggested? They are huge, heavy, loud and brightly coloured using loud rocket guns at the same time. How is this good for anything but attracting enemy bullets?
Anyway this started from me refuting flash marines and everyone getting upset at that. I suspect many didnt even read the whole thing anyway. But last time I checked magic in 40k was psykers, warp travel, xeno tech and demons. Not legs and other mundane stuff.
Well, I am a student of sport science, who is specialising in biomechanics, and I gave a relatively detailed explanation of how and why a marine would be 'that' fast on the previous page.
I mean, if Usain Bolt can accelerate to 47kph in 7 seconds without the use of illegal performance enhancing eugenics, in 38000 years, it stands to reason that an un augmented human may be able to breach the 5kph gap to 52pkh in under 10 seconds, let alone an augmented super human with many additional organs that facilitate the power and strength required to run so fast, and accelerate to it even faster.
So no mate, not magic marines, with magic legs. It is theoretically more than possible if the described science of a marine in powered armour was to become correct that they could run that fast. Absolutely no bones about that in my mind. In fact, I expect with rejuvenation techniques that such speeds may be possible in my life time, tif such techniques were used for performance enhancing purposes.
What would take years of body honing could be achieved in months.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.
To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.
I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.
Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.
Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.
So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.
Like I literally just said, this is a space magical fictional universe. It's really cute and really nice how you've managed to isolate your IG from every other faction in 40k, calling everything else unrealistic and lame, namely Space Marines. You find ways to cope with IG (who in some ways are just as absurd and idiotic as Space Marines) and block out the stupid gak while pointing at and magnifying the idiocy in Space Marines. I find that in and of itself lame.
I don't think SMs are as fast as you claim they are....they do not travel at lighting speeds and nor do they have to. They are faster than a human being but that doesn't have to mean they're fething Flash kind of fast. If you played SM, I think the way Captain Titus moved; adding just a bit more speed, is a perfect representation of how marines move.
And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.
Cool, are legs magical in 40k? No they are legs like all other legs. They should follow the rules of legs. I think IG have many things that need improvement too. Like the fact that millions fight for planets instead of hundreds of millions ot the Leman Russ. Except that at least the Guard has a balance of stupidity and sensible... unlike Space Marines which is all stupidity.
I dont claim they are fast. Any body who can read would know I made no such claim... but others did. I simply pointed out how silly the speed claimed is and everybody got upset that their magic marines got insulted.
1 Million Marines is tiny. You know it took millions of men to fight for stalingrad. The popeing battle had 1 million men a side and it escalated from there. For part of a city. Its a problem I have with the Guard too. The numbers are too small for anything. Also why would Space Marines be good at anything you just suggested? They are huge, heavy, loud and brightly coloured using loud rocket guns at the same time. How is this good for anything but attracting enemy bullets?
Anyway this started from me refuting flash marines and everyone getting upset at that. I suspect many didnt even read the whole thing anyway. But last time I checked magic in 40k was psykers, warp travel, xeno tech and demons. Not legs and other mundane stuff.
Oh yes, SM legs are soooo magical lol. I have no idea why your so obsessed with the scientifical facts of a human leg but SMs are 7-8 foot tall superhumans and I'm sure they are quite fething fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EndlessWaltz explains it much better obviously lol
Wyzilla wrote: Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts)
What the hell? Bretonians are just basic humans, except for Grail Knights.
GKTiberius wrote: Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it
I am pretty sure I read some fluff saying they it does.
GKTiberius wrote: second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does.
I have never, ever read of any kind of lag in power armor. There was no initiative penalty for wearing power armor in Inquisitor, and I doubt there was in any RPG ever.
GKTiberius wrote: and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work.
No, it works with technomagic from the future!
*
I refer you to the Lexicanum entry on sororitas power armour, which has been referenced multiple times, so im not sure why you keep crowing for the source.
Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.[5]
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]
Also, with these insistence on sources, and your refusal to acknowledge material presented in them forces me to ask, where have you gotten your information? what source material give you the impression the SOB are so superior to SM. You make it sound as if the SOB are on par with grey knights in their abilities to take on super human threats.
In your opinion they are capable of defeating daemon incursions with relative ease, when have they done that unaided? is it a wide spread phenomenon? also I understand they have a reputation for killing heretics and the like, and yes there are high level pyskers and the occasional summoned daemon included in that purview, but can a sisters detachment really stand up, relatively to say, a massive tyranid invasion, or a necron assault? If so, where is the source for that? Please elaborate on the material you base these opinions on, because everything I have ever read about sisters places them between guardsmen and space marines in capability, equipment, and resiliency.
I'm not saying sisters are useless or inept, but they are not on the same level universally. Yes individual SOB can achieve that level temporarily on occasion, but the average SOB can't go toe to toe with the average space Marine. At best the analogy could be made that the Sororitas is to guardsmen what a Grey knight is to a space marine. they are better trained, equipped, and more resilient than guardsman, but ultimately they are still human
Psienesis wrote: ... it's an FFG game. Their encumbrance and movement rules are hilariously terrible, even before Space Marines get involved.
In my current Dark Heresy game, one of the characters is a 17 year old Tribal Psyker. She's *slightly* tougher than the average, but has devoted none of her XP to buying increases in STR or TGH, and can still strap on almost 200kg and walk around like it's nothing.
I'm pretty sure you're doing the encumbrance rules wrong. The walk around like it's nothing column is on the left side of the chart, not the right, which is maximum pushing ability (not even lifting -- pushing). To do what you are describing your character as doing, you would need SB + TB of 13, which is actually impossible, since SB and TB top out at 6 for unaugmented human beings.
GKTiberius wrote: I refer you to the Lexicanum entry on sororitas power armour, which has been referenced multiple times, so im not sure why you keep crowing for the source.
Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.[5]
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.[3] Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.[5]
So, it is stating the lag is negligible and that sisters do not get the life-support stuff., but that it does improve the user's strength. Kind of what I was saying, no?
GKTiberius wrote: Also, with these insistence on sources, and your refusal to acknowledge material presented in them forces me to ask, where have you gotten your information?
Information about the marine being able to feel through the armor? I cannot remember, maybe just a misunderstanding of the ubiquitous “second skin” expression.
GKTiberius wrote: what source material give you the impression the SOB are so superior to SM.
Go back in the thread. I put a marine at about 1,1sister. So the marine is still slightly superior. So everything you ask me to prove is just based on a wrong understanding of what I said.
GKTiberius wrote: In your opinion they are capable of defeating daemon incursions with relative ease, when have they done that unaided?
I never said they could defeat daemon incursions with ease, and that basically means nothing. A bunch of nurgling being summoned or Angron with his ten bloodthirsters retinue are both daemon incursions. The Sisters can deal with the first one with ease, but certainly will have problems with the second one. For Sisters fighting daemon, there is a blurb about Sisters going into a shrine world turned into a daemon world and completely full of Khorne daemons to get some relics back. But it is all meaningless without numbers involved for both forces.
GKTiberius wrote: also I understand they have a reputation for killing heretics and the like, and yes there are high level pyskers and the occasional summoned daemon included in that purview, but can a sisters detachment really stand up, relatively to say, a massive tyranid invasion, or a necron assault?
... I’m having a real hard time taking you seriously at this point. What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie... and you are seriously going to use a obviously kit bashed model of a gene stealer crossed with a tac marine, as proof, if you are going to try to pass that off as a joke, you don’t seem to understand the appropriate placement of jokes in a discourse. Seriously asking someone to prove a point, and then when asked to prove your point you respond with a joke, it seriously undermines your credibility. I'm going call it like I see it. You sir, are a troll.
You are only here to refute claims based on your own opinion with baseless assertions and sourceless conclusions. The assertions I am asking you to prove, after you demand proof for nearly every statement I make, are not based on my misunderstanding of your assertions. Where does it say the Ecclisiarchy spends most of its money on SOB equipment? Specifically what source gives you the impression the SOB could handily repel even a relatively minor daemon incursion? (nurglings also mean plagues and disease, so how would they be equipped to handle that?) Where are your sources on this mystical equipment that will appear as soon as GW makes a legitimate line for SOB? Do you have an actual source for that or is it just wishful thinking?
You are apparently confusing opinion and fact. I will concede that some of my initial assertions of SOB were wrong (primarily my impression of the support that SOB get, I thought they were more independent and self reliant than they are from the ecclisarchy, and after reading more information about them I know now that is wrong), and as a result I have learned more about them from this discourse than I originally had, but you seem intractable. You side step questions, and make obviously false and inflammatory statements about SM, like you have some sort of personal dislike or hatred of them. I know this is an open forum for a fictional universe and I probably shouldn’t get this bent out of shape, but you don’t seem to understand the fundamental parameters and rules of appropriate discourse.
I would say you are both relatively wrong on some point, but right on others. Yes Sisters of Battle armor are a little bit worse than Astartes armor when it comes to auxilary systems. They offer the same level of protection. They simply don't have all the kinks. In the same fashion, Godwyn pattern bolters (the Space Marines ones) are inferior to Godwyn-Daez pattern bolter (the Sororitas ones) even their power is similar it's in the recoil, reload ease, precision, reliabillity, etc. that the Sororitas weapon is better. So in short, Astartes armor is better but doesn't offer better protection and Sororitas weapons are better, but don't give them superior firepower. In resume gear is equal, not superior or worse.
As for your question about Sisters vs Tyranid hordes GKTiberius, I would propose you to read the story Saint Praxedes. She was a Cannonness of the Order of Our Martyred Lady who became the first martyr of Hive fleet Kraken. She and her 300 or so fellow Sister allowed millions of refugee to flee their doomed planet and fought against the Tyranid horde a guerilla style of warfare for 200 years behind the ennemie line. She herself killed singlehandedly two hive tyrants before being killed (by the second hive tyrant). She was canonised saint after her heroic death. Basically, she did a feat that even heroic Space Marines would find daunting and proved to be equal or at least rivalling in skill, bravery and excellence the very best of the Adeptus Astartes. For the necron, I would push you to read Hammer and Anvil where a small group of Sisters destroy narrowly and entire moon worth of necrons it's the Sororitas version of the world engins except Sisters came back alive from this one. A single detachment of 1000 Sister of Battle was credited for the liberation of a 100 worlds. If that's not heroic worthy of any Space Marines, then I guess I need to read a lot more Space Marines stuff because that seems to be pretty similar.
Sisters and Space Marines have been described multiple times as fighting back to back and shoulder to shoulder has equals. Even the deathwatch rulebook which praise (and in my opinion overpraise sometime) Space Marines has a mention of Space Marines and Sister making excellent mix. Even down to organisation level the two groups are similar. A commandery is roughly the size of a companie and a preceptory (the largest level of operation Sister is comparable to a Chapter). Sisters aren't superhuman in size and strength, but they do have their own superpowers in the form of magic.
In my head canon (which is worth nothing mind you) Marines are superior to Sisters because they are superhuman. Once in a while, a Sister of Battle will be so good she will be able to best one in duel, but they represent a minority. It takes two or three Sisters to take down or rival a Space Marines.
If you want to read Hammer and Anvil, I would suggest you to read Faith and Fire too. Hammer and Anvil is a sequal. It would help your appreciation of the second book to read the first to introduce you some characters, but it's not mandatory since the two stories aren't directly connected.
When it comes to Sisters vs Space Marines, I have found out that many people know very little about Sisters. I used to think they were the most boring (and useless) faction in the entire game by a landslide. At that point thow, I never read anything about them beside a few tiny bits that can be resumed like so: «human women zeolots with space marines basic weapons who hates psykers and mutants.» It's after reading their fluff and actualy getting intersted in them that I realised that what I knew about them was almost more like a prejudice than an honest depiction of them. Which I would resume in a single sentence now has: «Martyrs and holy warriors».
Maybe you will come the same conclusion than I. In any case, I think your appreciation of this faction may grow a little on you. I personnaly think the concept of normal humans rivalling Space Marines throw the use of esotheric training methods, similar gear and supernatural devotion rather interesting. They make an excellent reflexion of Space Marines who are strong of body, but weak of mind vs Sororitas who are weak of body, but strong of mind.
I am very interested in learning more, and i will definitely check those title out. Also, i would agree with your assessment of my opinion of SOB as my real in depth, post lexicanum reading on them is woefully lacking. I think if anything makes a faction more interesting and adds depth it is a good thing. One dimensional factions rife with stereotypes and tropes only hurts the game.
GKTiberius wrote: What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie...
It was a joke and an excuse to show off a cool conversion and alternate version of the fluff where the Ultramarines are actually a genestealer cult now, rather than having defeated the tyranids. Because I always felt it made no sense that a chapter alone could have defeated a whole hive fleet.
GKTiberius wrote: Seriously asking someone to prove a point, and then when asked to prove your point you respond with a joke, it seriously undermines your credibility.
The rest of my message was serious. It does actually include a link to Canoness Praxedes story. I guess you have not clicked on it, though, since you seem to have discovered her existence from Epronovost's post.
GKTiberius wrote: Where does it say the Ecclisiarchy spends most of its money on SOB equipment?
It is made pretty clear in the codices, and in the Faith and Fire book, that the Sororitas have a place of very high prestige in the Ecclesiarchy. The Abbess is even usually a High Lord of Terra. So it only make sense that they get the very best wargear available. And that does not need to constitute most of the Ecclesiarchy's fortune. Even a small portion means each sister can get billions time more money invested in her wargear than a guardsman would.
So, unless you have a source contradicting that, or even something hinting that it is not the case, I am going to consider it a fact that the Ecclesiarchy cares to give the Sisters the best wargear available, and that money is not really a problem even if that means extremely expensive stuff.
GKTiberius wrote: Specifically what source gives you the impression the SOB could handily repel even a relatively minor daemon incursion?
That fluff blurb I mentioned in my previous message, for instance? Along with the fact Sisters are exceptionally resistant to chaos corruption? Or this passage in
Spoiler:
Faith and fire
where they do?
GKTiberius wrote: Where are your sources on this mystical equipment that will appear as soon as GW makes a legitimate line for SOB?
Where are your sources on the centurion from before the centurion models were introduced? There was none! And then suddenly, the model was introduced, and there were sources about it on the fluff. Same will happen with the Sisters. Same happen with about every new release for every army ever since the beginning of the game.
However, I do have a source on a Sororitas super heavy, in Imperial Armor volume 2 second edition. A giant megachurch on threads.
GKTiberius wrote: I will concede that some of my initial assertions of SOB were wrong (primarily my impression of the support that SOB get, I thought they were more independent and self reliant than they are from the ecclisarchy, and after reading more information about them I know now that is wrong), and as a result I have learned more about them from this discourse than I originally had
For those still debating the Sisters / Marines - the recent Sheild of Baal showcased the Sisters in a very major way - art, background, style, prowess - in fact in every area except actual rules ...........
Mr Morden wrote: For those still debating the Sisters / Marines - the recent Sheild of Baal showcased the Sisters in a very major way - art, background, style, prowess - in fact in every area except actual rules ...........
At this rate I think we'll see the Squats get a codex before the Sisters get anything more than table scraps from Geedubs.
I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.
Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Stop arguing realism swasta. Each faction in 40k is so immensely absurd in so many different ways whenever you hold your scientifical facts too tight, you you'll get a headache. From the ridiculously psychic eldar to demigod primarchs and Chaos Obliterators that literally morph whatever weapons they want and turn their own bodily cells into live ammunition and they turn their fething blood into plasma, not much in 40k can relate to our world as we know it. 40k is just a fictional space magical universe and nothing else, if you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.
Warhammer has a whole heap of fantasy elements, but these are all based on edged weapon combat. The rules try to replicate this, while mixing in the daemons and fireballs and ratmen.
To me, anything that adds to the realism of the edged weapon combat makes the game better, as it provides a solid foundation for the fantasy elements to be fantasitical. Imaging that dragon running amok is a lot easier for me (and maybe others) because I can visualize it running around if there are phalanxes of spearmen and formed regiments of cavalry. We don't know how dragons work, but we have a fair idea of how people prepared for and fought using spears, bows and swords.
I genuinely don't get why people say "It's magic and daemons, it can't possibly be realistic", because even the most out there fiction has to obey its own internal logic to be believable. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose concepts running around in a mess. Warhammer is based on dudes with swords. It should have some connection to how that worked in reality.
Someone else said this in the fantasy thread and I agree with it. Its not a hard argument to understand that a balance is needed in rules and fluff on this stuff. 40k and fantasy fail at the above.
Also 40k isnt a hobby mate. Wargaming is and most wargaming is historical believe it or not. Historical, as I said earlier is what I like. But 40k has potential. For the Guard they can be historical armies in space with a twist fighting aliens in planetary empires. How awesome is that?! But then we have road runner marines with thor hammers and superman abilities leaping around the field at lightning speeds with selective hearing, eagle vision and acid spitting throats. I mean thats kind of lame. It kills the seriousness and when you hear stupid quotes that arent even defendable in fluff like there being only 1 million marines etc it gets even worse. Marines are the least consistent even in universe.
So I will argue for realism, because with just a bit of realism 40k could be taken seriously a bit more. Do you think Dawn of war would have been popular if it had marines as portrayed in the fluff? Nope, because its stupid in the fluff. In the game they are only a bit tougher than everyone else (if that) and die like everyone else. If they moved at huge speeds and killed everything, the game would have flopped. The video game was arguably more popular than the table top game. Goes to show how a bit of balance in the stupidity could go a long way. Which is all I want.
This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.
GKTiberius wrote: What gives you the impression that the Ultramarines are a lie...
It was a joke and an excuse to show off a cool conversion and alternate version of the fluff where the Ultramarines are actually a genestealer cult now, rather than having defeated the tyranids. Because I always felt it made no sense that a chapter alone could have defeated a whole hive fleet.
It was not a chapter alone, it was a chapter, billions of Ultramar's PDF (which are better trained and equipped than the regular Imperial Guard), a Titan Legion, the orbital defenses, 2 Battlefleets and whatever help they could get from the nearby sectors.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.
Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.
I thought the new blood tide story was where they rescue draigo and give up their lives to defeat the daemons. ill have to go back and check. I like the new GK fluff alot more than the 5th ed Mary sue fest (they are still Mary sues, but not as bad)
Wyzilla wrote: Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts)
What the hell? Bretonians are just basic humans, except for Grail Knights.
Bretts are the superhuman result of a successful eugenics program. They're filled with magical powers, and Bretts can do crazy gak like wade through gunfire without really caring at all.
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Furyou Miko wrote: I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.
Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.
-looks at my Dark Angels codex-
Yeah you probably don't want a new Codex at this point.
Xenomancers wrote: LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?
There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.
Xenomancers wrote: This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.
And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.
Xenomancers wrote: LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?
There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.
More to the point, how on earth do the Space Marines always know where such things are? It's not like they've got an extensive intelligence apparatus and surveillance network, it's almost all down to interrogations and whatever a few Scout infantry can physically see, and they've got an absurdly low number of those for a force operating on an operational, much less strategic, level.
Kain wrote: Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.
Plausibility is also determined by genre conventions. If you have a "WWI in space" story you expect it to have things like trench warfare, throwing away countless lives for trivial gains, etc. If, in the middle of a human wave attack on an enemy trench, your "WWI in space" troops suddenly reveal that they have the ability to run at 1000mph you'd better have a really good reason for it because it's not what your audience expects from the "WWI in space" theme.
So, in 40k you have what normally appears to be a straightforward "WWII/Vietnam in space" setting: most of the elements of modern war exist (tanks, aircraft, squad-based tactics, etc) but are still in a fairly unrefined form (those aircraft are using guns instead of missiles). And in that kind of setting you expect most things to be within a reasonable range of the WWII/Vietnam power level. Marines can be a bit higher, IG conscript hordes can be a bit lower. But if you suddenly say "lol guys, now it's a superhero cartoon" your audience is going to say "WTF is this " and lose interest.
There's lots of things coexisting in the 40k setting. You have DKoK doing supergritty grimdark eyepatch trench warfare with heretics while super-saiyan GKs do crazy fighting with Daemons on the other end of the battlefield, psychic fireworks lighting up their fight like a christmas tree.
Xenomancers wrote: LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?
There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.
Xenomancers wrote: This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.
And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.
I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.
Xenomancers wrote: I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.
Then why is the art full of things like this, with space marines fighting like normal soldiers that just happen to have better armor, not running around at 100mph headshotting everyone with their bolters?
Why does GW's own space marine movie show the exact opposite of the supposed "superhero cartoon" marines?
Xenomancers wrote: LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?
There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.
Xenomancers wrote: This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.
And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.
I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.
Indeed.
I'm pretty sure the setting is MORE about the Spess Mehreens and their exploits for the most part and less about the cannon fodder... er Guardsman.
Ashiraya wrote: There's lots of things coexisting in the 40k setting. You have DKoK doing supergritty grimdark eyepatch trench warfare with heretics while super-saiyan GKs do crazy fighting with Daemons on the other end of the battlefield, psychic fireworks lighting up their fight like a christmas tree.
Vraks leaps to mind.
But that's not really what Vraks had. Remember, it was a human inquisitor who killed a demon lord of Khorne in a one-on-one duel, and the description of the physical aspects of the fights aren't really any different from "normal" humans fighting. You don't have demons and GKs bouncing off the walls of the fortress towers while striking FTL sword blows.
Peregrine, you should not use the Ultramarines movie as a serious source. It frivolously violates established fluff at every opportunity, and the very nature of the protagonists is an example. Raw Ultramarines recruits, in a Tactical Squad? Except recruits are first Scouts, then Devastator, then Assault, and last Tactical, meaning they are more than veterans when they reach Tactical?
But that's not really what Vraks had. Remember, it was a human inquisitor who killed a demon lord of Khorne in a one-on-one duel, and the description of the physical aspects of the fights aren't really any different from "normal" humans fighting. You don't have demons and GKs bouncing off the walls of the fortress towers while striking FTL sword blows.
I am fairly sure Hector Rex is not only gene-enhanced, but also a psyker. As in, a seriously powerful psyker.
Ashiraya wrote: Peregrine, you should not use the Ultramarines movie as a serious source.
Why not? GW finally had an opportunity to show space marines in combat instead of describing them in written fluff, in a source under their direct control. And they made a deliberate choice to make them normal soldiers with better gear, not cartoon superheroes. Some fluff elements might be inconsistent (though perhaps the recruits were there because of exceptional circumstances), but that shouldn't have any effect on the "what space marines look like" aspect.
Of course if you don't like that there are other sources. For example, the DoW intro:
Same style of fighting, same complete absence of the "cartoon superhero" marines.
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Ashiraya wrote: I am fairly sure Hector Rex is not only gene-enhanced, but also a psyker. As in, a seriously powerful psyker.
Fluff-wise he's described as being a big and strong human, not a marine-level superhuman. So think "(American) football player on steroids", not "10' tall genetically-engineered supersoldier".
The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)
Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.
Fluff-wise he's described as being a big and strong human, not a marine-level superhuman. So think "(American) football player on steroids", not "10' tall genetically-engineered supersoldier".
He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.
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Bobthehero wrote: The one I don't like about that intro is how PA is completely useless in it.
PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.
Even Carapace armour is supposed to be able to stop an ork choppa, and PA is better!
I'd also point out that using DOW or the Ultramarines movie is a terrible example, as GW had LESS control over those. Animating is bloody hard and expensive- animating near supersonic characters is extremely hard and expensive and drags out the time working for months. Plus the Black Library isn't third party like Wax or even FFG- it's first party and directly a part of GW. They have complete control over everything in the Black Library through the first person- if they wanted or didn't want something they could directly order it.
Now, I am not going to argue for supersonic Marines as even I think that's OTT, but I definitely argue they play in a so different league to mortal men they can't really be compared.
Ashiraya wrote: The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)
So why don't we say the same about the other fluff? The "cartoon superhero" marines are inconsistent with the tabletop fluff/Ultramarines/etc and therefore they're just someone's dream.
Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.
So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?
He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.
The fluff doesn't say anything about him using his psychic powers to support his physical abilities in the fight. There's some "war of minds" stuff going on in the background, but he's still a human swinging a sword with human muscles. He even gets old and tired before his last desperate blow kills the demon.
PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.
Alternatively, power armor isn't as good as you think it is.
Kain wrote: Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.
Plausibility is also determined by genre conventions. If you have a "WWI in space" story you expect it to have things like trench warfare, throwing away countless lives for trivial gains, etc. If, in the middle of a human wave attack on an enemy trench, your "WWI in space" troops suddenly reveal that they have the ability to run at 1000mph you'd better have a really good reason for it because it's not what your audience expects from the "WWI in space" theme.
So, in 40k you have what normally appears to be a straightforward "WWII/Vietnam in space" setting: most of the elements of modern war exist (tanks, aircraft, squad-based tactics, etc) but are still in a fairly unrefined form (those aircraft are using guns instead of missiles). And in that kind of setting you expect most things to be within a reasonable range of the WWII/Vietnam power level. Marines can be a bit higher, IG conscript hordes can be a bit lower. But if you suddenly say "lol guys, now it's a superhero cartoon" your audience is going to say "WTF is this " and lose interest.
Your problem is assuming it's supposed to be world war 1 in space, instead of medieval eurofantasy with a side order of HP Lovecraft and Heinlein in space. You have Space Elves and Space Orcs and Space Knights. It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy. For the longest time, the Imperial Guard weren't really anything more than the Shield to the Avengers of the Space Marines. The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.
Peregrine wrote: So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?
Because in the DoW intro, the orks were of almost equal numbers?
Ashiraya wrote: The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)
So why don't we say the same about the other fluff? The "cartoon superhero" marines are inconsistent with the tabletop fluff/Ultramarines/etc and therefore they're just someone's dream.
Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.
So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?
He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.
The fluff doesn't say anything about him using his psychic powers to support his physical abilities in the fight. There's some "war of minds" stuff going on in the background, but he's still a human swinging a sword with human muscles. He even gets old and tired before his last desperate blow kills the demon.
PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.
Alternatively, power armor isn't as good as you think it is.
Just.... no. Do you just hate Space marines or something? If they died like flies like you are convinced they do they'd all be dead by now.
Wyzilla wrote: Animating is bloody hard and expensive- animating near supersonic characters is extremely hard and expensive and drags out the time working for months.
This is CG, not hand-drawn animation. It would have been very easy to have the marines move a lot faster, but someone made a conscious decision not to do it. And GW approved the movie instead of saying "you ignored the part where we said we wanted near-supersonic marines, you're not getting paid until you go back and fix it". Whatever the reason might have been it's part of the fluff now, and ignoring it because "animation is expensive" is no better than ignoring the written fluff because "the author has to make it sound more exciting in a medium where you don't have spectacular visuals available".
Plus the Black Library isn't third party like Wax or even FFG- it's first party and directly a part of GW. They have complete control over everything in the Black Library through the first person- if they wanted or didn't want something they could directly order it.
How is that any different from the Ultramarines movie, which was sold directly by GW? This isn't like a video game license where GW hands the IP to someone else and says "make money with this" but otherwise has minimal direct involvement.
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DoomShakaLaka wrote: Just.... no. Do you just hate Space marines or something? If they died like flies like you are convinced they do they'd all be dead by now.
I don't hate space marines, I hate the fanboy worship of space marines where an army of well-equipped elites is turned into cartoon superheroes. I like tabletop marines (and fluff that portrays them at roughly tabletop level) just fine.
Ashiraya wrote: Because in the DoW intro, the orks were of almost equal numbers?
I guess that means marines aren't nearly as awesome as you seem to think.
Like, take it like this; in a D&D game, does anyone really care that level 1 hobgoblin warriors can't even touch level 20 Paladins even if they outnumber her a thousand to one and all their superior numbers do for them is make the high level heroes take more time to kill them? Even though there's absolutely no in universe explanation as to why people get arbitrarily more powerful after doing some errands and stabbing some blokes? It's a genre convention that the super badass heroes are just better than the mooks in every way there is to be better. I mean, even in the Tolkienverse, Orcs had to outnumber Elven and Numenorian Ubermensch by a factor of more than a hundred to one to have any chance of fighting them at all.
Kain wrote: It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy.
You realize that space marines are literally Starship Troopers soldiers with their jetpacks removed and a bunch of purity seals glued everywhere, right? In fact, you could build a pretty convincing diorama of some of the Starship Troopers battles using assault marines and Tyranid models.
The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.
You're missing the fact that in other fluff all of the other armies get to do the same things that space marines do. IG get to be the "heroic adventuring party" in their own stories, so space marines aren't exceptional.
I love how all my threads either fail after about 6 replies or end up in a massive off topic discussion.
I started this thread to discuss how a sister, a scion or a scitarii would fair against a marine. The sister-marine comparison has been extensively discussed, anyone got any thoughts on the other 2?
Kain wrote: Like, take it like this; in a D&D game, does anyone really care that level 1 hobgoblin warriors can't even touch level 20 Paladins even if they outnumber her a thousand to one and all their superior numbers do for them is make the high level heroes take more time to kill them?
Yes. That's a weakness of the D&D game mechanics, not good writing.
Even though there's absolutely no in universe explanation as to why people get arbitrarily more powerful after doing some errands and stabbing some blokes?
Again, this is a problem with D&D game mechanics, not good writing. People should get better after doing things that practice those skills in the same way that a person who spends time playing a sport will be stronger and faster than someone who sits on the couch playing video games all day. But D&D style stat increases are just flawed game mechanics.
It's a genre convention that the super badass heroes are just better than the mooks in every way there is to be better.
Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.
Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.
Or you just make your villains that much scarier....
Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.
Luckily there's many types of enemies.
Guardsmen are no threat to the CSM, but Tyranids, Eldar and SM are.
Dr. Manhattan is still finely written even though he's rather broken, for example.
Kain wrote: It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy.
You realize that space marines are literally Starship Troopers soldiers with their jetpacks removed and a bunch of purity seals glued everywhere, right? In fact, you could build a pretty convincing diorama of some of the Starship Troopers battles using assault marines and Tyranid models.
The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.
You're missing the fact that in other fluff all of the other armies get to do the same things that space marines do. IG get to be the "heroic adventuring party" in their own stories, so space marines aren't exceptional.
Aesthetically there are some similarities to the mobile infantry. Thematically Space Marines have much more to do with millitant holy orders of the middle ages like the Teutonic Knights or the Jomsvikings. Or to take examples from other fantasy works; the Grey Wardens or the Harpers. There's some elements of science fiction super soldiery, but in terms of organization, general feel, and how the whole faction is set up, the SoBs and Space Marines are basically millitant holy orders, except in space.
The Imperial Guard differs from the SoBs and Space Marines in presentation in that its stories tend to draw more from Saving Private Ryan or Fury than Dungeons and Dragons and Lord of the Rings. The thematics drawn are hugely different. Essentially, every faction tells a different sort of story. Orks are the story of roving barbarian hordes. Eldar of the desperate entering their time of twilight. Tyranids of man in his struggle against the overwhelming and uncaring power of nature and the alien. Chaos of the struggle with the darkest desires in every person.
The Tau, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard draw the least from fantasy because the first two mostly draw from conventional science fiction and the third from war movies. Pretty much all the other factions draw from High Fantasy for their thematics first and foremost.
With the new Skitarii book, we finally have good amount of information about the basic Skitarii and their combat capacity. Of course, there is a lot of dark corners and there isn't a wealth of information and comparison to draw, but here i what I think after reading their codex and their novel. I will only be talking about Vanguard and Ranger Skitarii, not the Sicarans which are more advanced.
The basic armor of the Skitarii is a sealed carapace armor of excellent craftsmanship much like Scions. They have some bionics enhancement, most prominent of all being their legs and waist which are fully robotic and some cranial implants that allows them to share information and receive orders, tactical data and other information directly in their brain from an orbiting or otherwise distant supercomputer or techpriests. They also possess some bionic limbs or organs, but they seldom are standard and don't set them apart to much from what highly trained human can do.
Their armor thus gives them a certain amount of protection against Space Marines basic weapons like boltguns since carapace armor can deflect or absorb bolt shots yet still offer significantly less protection than power armors. Their enhance resistance due to bionics isn't really an issue since bolt weapons (and to a certain extend lasguns to) are weapon so powerful that having a particularly hardy set of bionic lungs for example isn't going to help you survive a wound let alone still be combat operational unless you are very lucky. So Space Marines have a significant advantage there.
The Skitarii weapons are both significantly more powerful than a standard bolter. The Rad gun is basically a high power lasgun with armor piercing capacity capable of damaging the softer part of a power armor that also happens to have a ridiculous fire rate and viciously toxic ammunition. A Space Marines could suffer serious injuries, despite their resistance to radiation, from the radiation of the rad gun even if the ray itself doesn't wound him severely. The only advantages of the boltgun would be its range and then again. The Galvanic rifle are even more powerful. These are basically snipers that fires intelligent seeker bullets that carries enough electrical charge and punch to not only pierce flesh and armor, but also fry your complete neural structure in one blast. This easily gives them awesome range and precision since the bullets can compensate a little bit for poorer marksmanship. All in all a Space Marines would be outgun by a Skitarii.
In the training department, the Skitarii fall behind Space Marines much more. If Skitarii are good competent soldiers, they don't have the same level of training and excellence requirements than the Space Marines. In fact, of all human elite troops, the Skitarii are those with the «worst» training. They don't meticulously select and train their recruit from infancy, don't train them in an holistic, systematic and permanent way like Sisters would do. Neither do they receive careful training from experimented tutors for prolonged period of time using rigorous testing method like Scions. They receive basic training directly implanted in their brain alongside an almost unbreakable devotion to the Mars Creed. Their enhanced body and weapons allows them to exploit that training to the point where they became much superior to guardsmen, but not enough to compensate for their inferior physical attribute against Space Marines.
With all that taken into account, I would declare that a Space Marines is worth about 4 times its number in Skitarii. The hardest challenge the Space Marines would face against the soldiers of Mars would be their superior weaponry and the fact that unlike guardsmen, shock and terror tactics have little to no effect against them. Their coordination and calculated strike also make them terrible to face and not to be underestimated. Skitarii are a bit like Necron made flesh. They are relentless, surprisingly fast and wield exotic weapons that can kill you in new and implausible fashion.
Despite this, In my head canon I would declare the basic Skitarii to be the «least» of the elite troops of the Imperium while Sicarans can definitely rival Space Marines in one on one. So in resume Space Marines > Sisters of Battle > Scions > Skitarii (basic) > elite guardsmen and Arbites > regular guardsmen > PDF and law enforcement troops> Conscript and common criminals> Frateris Militia.
I'd argue Scions struggle against Astartes. Their weapons have excellent penetrating power, which really helps, but in the end they just lack the stopping power to effectively deal damage.
Frickin excellent comment epronovost, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!
Its interesting that you put Scions above Scitarii, I thought the Scitariis toughness and relentlessness might put them above Scions but you make a valid point regarding training
Stopping powers doesn't exist when it comes to energy weapons, but if you mean that the beam is small and doesn't cause massive trauma in terms of size then yes, hot-shot lasgun would be weapons of «small» stopping power compared to bolters for exemple. The truth is if they can pierce their armor, they can pierce their skin, flesh and bones even more easily. A shot in a vital organ will kill, or cripple a Space Marines. A shot to the head and it's instant death for any Marines. A shot to the liver (they only have one) and it's the same outcome. A Shot the spine and it's death. A shot to the stomach and it's excrutiating death in the next ten minutes. Plus these weapons aren't low fore rates one shot to the chest may not kill or cripple a marine but three or four will certainly and burst fire grant's them that capacity easily. Scions have demonstrated their ability to kill Space Marines numerous times without resorting to horde tactics against them.
@DoomShakaLaka
I would say the Scions vs Skitarii is the toughest call. I would say Scions are better trained, but have lower grade equipment and inferior «body performance». Scions are better against Marines than Skitarii, but worse then them against most other ennemies.
Damage is a very relative terms when it comes to weapons. A nuke doesn't do more damage to single human being than a medieval maul to the head since both end up with a human equally dead if you know what I mean.
"Stopping power is the ability of a firearm or other weapon to cause ballistic trauma to a target (human or animal) enough to immediately incapacitate (and thus stop) the target. This contrasts with lethality in that stopping power pertains only to a weapon's ability to incapacitate quickly, regardless of whether death ultimately occurs."
EDIT: ultimately, as with any weapon, shot placement is king, far above and beyond raw power.
Ashiraya wrote: 'Stopping power' is just another term for damage.
So is penetration ability. The 40k rules give them two separate stats and rolls, but in reality a weapon that can punch straight through marine power armor like it hardly exists isn't going to have much trouble damaging the marine under that armor.
To be fair, there are differences in how penetrating weapons and flesh damaging weapons work, at least with kinetic energy weapons
Hollow point bullets for example are terrible at penetrating armor, because, by design, they work directly in favor of how body armor wants to dissipate that force. If they hit flesh however and properly expand, they cause a great big cavity to form and dump all of their energy effectively into the target.
Meanwhile, a round that pierces armor effectively often will go straight through flesh, creating a nice hole (that will destroy anything it comes across) but won't be hitting as much or causing as much collateral damage, and often will retain significant energy to pass back out of the target, meaning that energy isn't all transferred to the target.
That said, anything that's effectively punching something like Power Armor is likely to retain a buttload of energy to dump into flesh, and if we're talking a thermal energy weapon, then the above goes out the window and if its penetrating armor then it should vaporize flesh far easier.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Well, I am a student of sport science, who is specialising in biomechanics, and I gave a relatively detailed explanation of how and why a marine would be 'that' fast on the previous page.
I mean, if Usain Bolt can accelerate to 47kph in 7 seconds without the use of illegal performance enhancing eugenics, in 38000 years, it stands to reason that an un augmented human may be able to breach the 5kph gap to 52pkh in under 10 seconds, let alone an augmented super human with many additional organs that facilitate the power and strength required to run so fast, and accelerate to it even faster.
So no mate, not magic marines, with magic legs. It is theoretically more than possible if the described science of a marine in powered armour was to become correct that they could run that fast. Absolutely no bones about that in my mind. In fact, I expect with rejuvenation techniques that such speeds may be possible in my life time, tif such techniques were used for performance enhancing purposes.
What would take years of body honing could be achieved in months.
Well that is wrong though. Usain Bolt had a MAXIMUM SPEED of 47. His average is 37km per hour. Now Usain bolt is thin, sleek, light and has all his gear designed for running. He trains for running and running only. The ground he runs on is designed fro running.
A space marine, weighs near 1000kg (800kg for armour + gear then himself?), is not sleek or light and is not on a running track. If you believe those qualities are good for speed then I think you got some more student learning to do.
Remember, the claim is that a Space Marine can run 52KM an hour in 5 seconds. That is not possible. Unless of course you have some idea of how that much weight can push itself so quickly on 2 legs?
See this discussion is important, because of their super hearing they can apparently hear artillery shells coming from a very long distance away and quickly zoom away from the area. That was the claim I thought was ridiculous. It still is ridiculous.
He weighs a bloody tonne mate? Even if he did reach these speeds he has no brakes, so he will have to have a lot of foresight to start stopping in time so he doesnt fall into small ditches or crash into objects etc.
Anyway enough of that, everyone has moved on to the topic etc.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, there are differences in how penetrating weapons and flesh damaging weapons work, at least with kinetic energy weapons
Hollow point bullets for example are terrible at penetrating armor, because, by design, they work directly in favor of how body armor wants to dissipate that force. If they hit flesh however and properly expand, they cause a great big cavity to form and dump all of their energy effectively into the target.
Meanwhile, a round that pierces armor effectively often will go straight through flesh, creating a nice hole (that will destroy anything it comes across) but won't be hitting as much or causing as much collateral damage, and often will retain significant energy to pass back out of the target, meaning that energy isn't all transferred to the target.
That said, anything that's effectively punching something like Power Armor is likely to retain a buttload of energy to dump into flesh, and if we're talking a thermal energy weapon, then the above goes out the window and if its penetrating armor then it should vaporize flesh far easier.
That's right, the AKs I trained with in the Russian army would probably not penetrate quite as well as an M-16 an American would use due to not quite having the same velocity, but the bullet used was probably going to leave a hideous hole when it came out since the 74's rounds tumble like a mother-fether.
C7 (canadian M16) rounds tumble as well, or so we're told. Got some pretty vivid description of what they'd do to people, especially considering the size of the bullet itself.
Bobthehero wrote: C7 (canadian M16) rounds tumble as well, or so we're told. Got some pretty vivid description of what they'd do to people, especially considering the size of the bullet itself.
The 74 chambers a round made especially for tumbling as much as possible, it's slightly smaller than the M16's bullets. The Afghans thought we were poisoning our bullets in the 80s because of the injuries it tended to leave. This is opposed to the earlier 47's tendency to just punch right through someone without deforming too much.
Vaktathi wrote: "Stopping power is the ability of a firearm or other weapon to cause ballistic trauma to a target (human or animal) enough to immediately incapacitate (and thus stop) the target. This contrasts with lethality in that stopping power pertains only to a weapon's ability to incapacitate quickly, regardless of whether death ultimately occurs."
EDIT: ultimately, as with any weapon, shot placement is king, far above and beyond raw power.
^ This.
"Stopping power" is a very nebulous term. While a hot-shot lasgun might (and this is a big "might") offer higher armor penetration than a bolter, the nature of its ammunition indicates that it tends to "flash-fry" the target at the point of impact, if not burning a hole right through them. This is actually inferior to a bolter, which delivers an explosive payload timed to detonate inside the target, creating much greater wound cavities and damage to tissue, organs and bones surrounding the point of impact. Of all the small-arms carried by Imperial forces, anything packing bolter rounds offers the best overall performance of range, armor penetration and raw stopping power.
A space marine, weighs near 1000kg (800kg for armour + gear then himself?), is not sleek or light and is not on a running track. If you believe those qualities are good for speed then I think you got some more student learning to do
The armor is self-supporting (it doesn't weigh anything at all to the Marine wearing it, and lifts its own weight, at a minimum, while further enhancing the Marine's strength) and provides its own musculature and motivators in order to move.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, there are differences in how penetrating weapons and flesh damaging weapons work, at least with kinetic energy weapons
Hollow point bullets for example are terrible at penetrating armor, because, by design, they work directly in favor of how body armor wants to dissipate that force. If they hit flesh however and properly expand, they cause a great big cavity to form and dump all of their energy effectively into the target.
Meanwhile, a round that pierces armor effectively often will go straight through flesh, creating a nice hole (that will destroy anything it comes across) but won't be hitting as much or causing as much collateral damage, and often will retain significant energy to pass back out of the target, meaning that energy isn't all transferred to the target.
That said, anything that's effectively punching something like Power Armor is likely to retain a buttload of energy to dump into flesh, and if we're talking a thermal energy weapon, then the above goes out the window and if its penetrating armor then it should vaporize flesh far easier.
That's right, the AKs I trained with in the Russian army would probably not penetrate quite as well as an M-16 an American would use due to not quite having the same velocity, but the bullet used was probably going to leave a hideous hole when it came out since the 74's rounds tumble like a mother-fether.
I love my AK-74...I just wish I could have a giggle-switch auto-sear in it
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Well, I am a student of sport science, who is specialising in biomechanics, and I gave a relatively detailed explanation of how and why a marine would be 'that' fast on the previous page.
I mean, if Usain Bolt can accelerate to 47kph in 7 seconds without the use of illegal performance enhancing eugenics, in 38000 years, it stands to reason that an un augmented human may be able to breach the 5kph gap to 52pkh in under 10 seconds, let alone an augmented super human with many additional organs that facilitate the power and strength required to run so fast, and accelerate to it even faster.
So no mate, not magic marines, with magic legs. It is theoretically more than possible if the described science of a marine in powered armour was to become correct that they could run that fast. Absolutely no bones about that in my mind. In fact, I expect with rejuvenation techniques that such speeds may be possible in my life time, tif such techniques were used for performance enhancing purposes.
What would take years of body honing could be achieved in months.
Well that is wrong though. Usain Bolt had a MAXIMUM SPEED of 47. His average is 37km per hour. Now Usain bolt is thin, sleek, light and has all his gear designed for running. He trains for running and running only. The ground he runs on is designed fro running.
A space marine, weighs near 1000kg (800kg for armour + gear then himself?), is not sleek or light and is not on a running track. If you believe those qualities are good for speed then I think you got some more student learning to do.
Remember, the claim is that a Space Marine can run 52KM an hour in 5 seconds. That is not possible. Unless of course you have some idea of how that much weight can push itself so quickly on 2 legs?
See this discussion is important, because of their super hearing they can apparently hear artillery shells coming from a very long distance away and quickly zoom away from the area. That was the claim I thought was ridiculous. It still is ridiculous.
He weighs a bloody tonne mate? Even if he did reach these speeds he has no brakes, so he will have to have a lot of foresight to start stopping in time so he doesnt fall into small ditches or crash into objects etc.
Anyway enough of that, everyone has moved on to the topic etc.
You are well aware that olympic level weight lifters, you know, those guys and gals who are literally massive, will outstrip most sprinters, including elite ones over short distances? Why is that you reckon? And why is it do you think that the lighter frames of the sprinters eventually catch up to the weight lifters and outpace them?
The marines have the benefit of both of their advantages, they have the power and strength of the weight lifters, so will be incredibly quick off the mark, but also the cardio-respiratory system that can handle working at that rate, and above it. They have two hearts... TWO HEARTS, an absolutely insane endocrine system that can pump them full of so many hormones on a whim that your regular human would drop dead in an instant, they can adapt and heal almost instantly, so those fast twitch fibres they have will adapt in hour rather than days to stress, causing them to be even stronger. That isn't even thinking of the energy systems of the marines, they could have a creatine-phosphate energy system with enough reserves in their muscle tissue to work for minutes rather than seconds for all I know. How fast can their heart(s) beat per minute at maximum, how long can they sustain their maximum, what sort of tidal flow are they capable of, what is their lactic threshold? All of these are unknowns in quantity, but due to their adaptations, it can be safely assumed they are INCREDIBLY high, in which case. Yeah, they can go fast bro, and accelerate quickly to those speeds also.
Anyway, why is Usains speed topping at 47, but averaging at 37? He is usually slowing down at the 70m mark, he is also lazy, and as I have mentioned, his technique in the acceleration stage is also quite sloppy.
Anyway, already mentioned about the marines hearing the sound of the shells, and being able to cypher the sounds to accurately guess the direction it is coming from and where it is going to land with enough time to get out the way. Now, I don't know how fast said shells can travel, but I would assume it is faster than sound. If the marine could see the shell, and see it coming towards them, depending on blast radius.
The Armor doesn't weigh 1000kg. I don't think it clocks in at even 100kg. The Marine himself weighs way more than his armor does... and a car can move itself at 52mph easily, using technology that's now almost a century old.
There's also the fact that FFG's rules have been brought into this, and those are just absolutely redonkulous, but not out-of-line with feats Marines are described as doing in various sources.
Also, 1000kg is quite easy to move, you just need the engine and vehicle to do it, and those ridiculously strong and powerful marine legs with his ridiculous physiology is a big enough engine.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Also, 1000kg is quite easy to move, you just need the engine and vehicle to do it, and those ridiculously strong and powerful marine legs with his ridiculous physiology is a big enough engine.
You have a big word in your last reply. Assume.
Also a car has 4 wheels, I said earlier if a Marine had 4 legs I would think the speed possible, but not on 2 legs. Especially not with legs like theirs (with Armor on)
Usain Bolt has an average speed and a top speed if you google his speed. Hence the difference.
See when all these extra organs are added and assumptions based on the fact they probably have 2 of every organ etc is where I cant really argue much further. Since I have no idea if two hearts matter when they have all these other organs or if it effects their blood pressure, if their veins etc have been changed to support this etc. I have no idea. So if all these extra organs are added I cannot argue, I dont know enough about that stuff. A quick google search suggest we dont know just how much a second heart would effect people if it even will. But im not sure.
Reasonning Space Marines with science is a huge mistake. They are very, very implausible in most of their aspect from physical appearence, creation to capacities. Here is a short list of problem.
1) Fused rib-cage equals breathing problems, incapacity to lift and rotate arms over head, overheating issues, crippling lack of flexibility, balance and mouvements.
2) laraman cells = blood pressure problem, strokes, cloged arteries and veins, etc.
3) massive muscle and dense bones create problems of mobility, short tendons, lack of flexibility, posture issues.
4) massive adreline surges and high level of testosterone = stupidity, insanity, hallucination, etc.
5) fast healing, high strength, endurance and low body fat = high metabolism and heat issues.
6) thick skin produce transpiration issue, cooling issue, mobility issue.
7) second heart creates blood pressure differencil that can cause, death, fainting, burst blood vessels and is basically useless on a human frame of body (Octopus have 1 major heart and 8 secondary hearts to help give blood to their huge tentacles. Damage the main heart and they die. Damage a secondary heart and they may well bleed to death.)
Space Marines are being of fiction lets treatt them has such. They can do thing that makes no sense because they live in an imaginary world with it's own laws and parameters.
Just thinking of the caloric requirements of a Space Marine is insane. Many top athletes consume 8-12 thousand calories a day. For a Space Marine, with all that extra mass, those extra organs, etc, on top of apparently even more extreme physical feats, they'd probably need ,*at the least*, a similar caloric intake just to keep from starving to death, and probably 50,000-100,000 calories a day for the kind of training and combat they engage in.
Food would be a very real concern for a Space Marine, and whole they can eat things others can't, getting sufficient calories out of it would be very difficult indeed.
... and since they don't have bigger mouth and better teeth, they would spend all their days eating food just to stay in shape. This would be a good thing since the most simple physical activity could overcook their internal organs and they would have so much problem walking around.
Vaktathi wrote: Just thinking of the caloric requirements of a Space Marine is insane. Many top athletes consume 8-12 thousand calories a day. For a Space Marine, with all that extra mass, those extra organs, etc, on top of apparently even more extreme physical feats, they'd probably need ,*at the least*, a similar caloric intake just to keep from starving to death, and probably 50,000-100,000 calories a day for the kind of training and combat they engage in.
Food would be a very real concern for a Space Marine, and whole they can eat things others can't, getting sufficient calories out of it would be very difficult indeed.
I personally imagine them as cows, just eating everything they can on their journey, leaving poop trails everywhere. Stripping trees of leaves and bark as they travel, eating anything they can pick up just to keep them going. Grazing Space Marines eating the dead and consuming the local vegetation cracks me up. Probably why they have all these organs in the first place.
In the army we have emergency rations based on chocolate bars (those all in one candy bars were originally intended for quickly splurging on calories when healthier food couldn't be eaten fast enough) that are extremely dense in calories that you could chow down on quickly for fast energy. It's meant to be for emergencies though, and in the past this chocolate would often be made to taste like gak to prevent you from chowing down on it like candy.
In the future they probably don't need anything as crass as calorie dense chocolate+nuts+caramel+whatever and can probably just make a slurry of carbs, proteins and fats to get you going or even put it in bar form.
Recycling urine to water is one thing, but solid waste is another. If they're efficient in digesting that food in the first place, there shouldn't be much worth bothering with to recycle. As for nutrient paste, I'm sure they have something, but it's never mentioned or talked about, and they'd still have to be eating a gak-ton of it.
And yeah, the sheer amount of poop they'd generate would be a deal in and of itself
In the Canadian army we had a thing that look much like a microwave pizza (and about has bad) that had the same fonction. One of my friend had the most terrible constipation issue because it. I still pity him even if it happened 6 years ago. I really pity Scions who are told to eat nutrient paste a lot. the stomach cramps they must have are certainly a thing.
Vaktathi wrote: Recycling urine to water is one thing, but solid waste is another. If they're efficient in digesting that food in the first place, there shouldn't be much worth bothering with to recycle.
And yeah, the sheer amount of poop they'd generate would be a deal in and of itself
Perhaps the digestive system is modified to be like that of reptiles? They're pretty damn efficient in terms of waste conservation. It's why reptiles can go on so much less water than mammals of the equivalent mass.
Vaktathi wrote: Recycling urine to water is one thing, but solid waste is another. If they're efficient in digesting that food in the first place, there shouldn't be much worth bothering with to recycle. As for nutrient paste, I'm sure they have something, but it's never mentioned or talked about, and they'd still have to be eating a gak-ton of it.
And yeah, the sheer amount of poop they'd generate would be a deal in and of itself
... then route it into the fusion reactor on their backs. If it burns, it can power the armor and all its systems. Problem solved.
It's also because they are cold blooded. 60 to 80% of what you eat serves to maintain your temperature stable.
No they're more efficient with liquid waste because their method of getting rid of it makes use of much less water than mammals. Reptiles and Birds don't pee out streams of water like mammals do.
It's also because they are cold blooded. 60 to 80% of what you eat serves to maintain your temperature stable.
No they're more efficient with liquid waste because their method of getting rid of it makes use of much less water than mammals. Reptiles and Birds don't pee out streams of water like mammals do.
Lizards do... They pee to release this white stuff every day along with a stream of watery pee. Their urine is not colored or smelly however, but they pee a lot. Mine is only 10 weeks old and it pees a surprising amount. They dont poop too often though. A lot as in Once a day for pee.
It's also because they are cold blooded. 60 to 80% of what you eat serves to maintain your temperature stable.
No they're more efficient with liquid waste because their method of getting rid of it makes use of much less water than mammals. Reptiles and Birds don't pee out streams of water like mammals do.
Lizards do... They pee to release this white stuff every day along with a stream of watery pee. Their urine is not colored or smelly however, but they pee a lot. Mine is only 10 weeks old and it pees a surprising amount. They dont poop too often though.
In terms of absolute water used Lizards are much more efficient with water than mammals are. It's why reptiles tend to be more successful in hot deserts than mammals and is theorized to be one of the big reasons why archosaurs displaced synapsids as the dominant life form during the recovery process following the Permian extinction event. Pangaea was ungodly hot and dry and whomever could take the heat best and conserve precious water best will survive longest.
In times of plenty of course; reptiles will drink a lot more than they actually have to just like any animal would. And captivity is quite literally the easy life since your reptile will always have water on hand and will thus drink whenever slightly thirsty, whereas in the wild it might have to go for much longer periods without water.
In the Canadian army we had a thing that look much like a microwave pizza (and about has bad) that had the same fonction. One of my friend had the most terrible constipation issue because it. I still pity him even if it happened 6 years ago. I really pity Scions who are told to eat nutrient paste a lot. the stomach cramps they must have are certainly a thing.
The new ration have included gum to help with bowel movement.
It's also because they are cold blooded. 60 to 80% of what you eat serves to maintain your temperature stable.
No they're more efficient with liquid waste because their method of getting rid of it makes use of much less water than mammals. Reptiles and Birds don't pee out streams of water like mammals do.
Lizards do... They pee to release this white stuff every day along with a stream of watery pee. Their urine is not colored or smelly however, but they pee a lot. Mine is only 10 weeks old and it pees a surprising amount. They dont poop too often though.
In terms of absolute water used Lizards are much more efficient with water than mammals are. It's why reptiles tend to be more successful in hot deserts than mammals and is theorized to be one of the big reasons why archosaurs displaced synapsids as the dominant life form during the recovery process following the Permian extinction event. Pangaea was ungodly hot and dry and whomever could take the heat best and conserve precious water best will survive longest.
In times of plenty of course; reptiles will drink a lot more than they actually have to just like any animal would. And captivity is quite literally the easy life since your reptile will always have water on hand and will thus drink whenever slightly thirsty, whereas in the wild it might have to go for much longer periods without water.
That is true, my main point was that the lack of water isn't ideal though.
I don't think a Space Marine can have a similar digestive system as a Reptile though. I am not entirely sure how much the digestive system effects an animal, but reptiles as far as I have seen act and behave very differently (being cold blooded is the big example) than the warm blooded animals we have. I have very high doubts that you could take the best of both without the draw backs of either one.
Vaktathi wrote: As for nutrient paste, I'm sure they have something, but it's never mentioned or talked about, and they'd still have to be eating a gak-ton of it.
I've read about this, actually.
SM eat some kind of hyper-nutritious porridge that tastes incredibly dull but is perfectly functional.
Vaktathi wrote: As for nutrient paste, I'm sure they have something, but it's never mentioned or talked about, and they'd still have to be eating a gak-ton of it.
I've read about this, actually.
SM eat some kind of hyper-nutritious porridge that tastes incredibly dull but is perfectly functional.
It's something you'd figure they'd have, but I honestly cannot recall anything where it's mentioned. Someone out there have something they can point to?
Lord Tarkin wrote: And 1 million marines existing in 40k isn't really stupid. Essentially, SMs are the superhuman beefed up fully armored badasses equivalent to todays Americas Navy Seals. They operate in tiny numbers but they're extremely productable and have been the deciding factor in many engagements. 1,000 marines with millions of IG can quite easily take an entire planet. Guard fight the huge battles and take ground while marines strike and destroy command nodes, rip away spaceports and all those seemingly small things that ultimately win a conflict.
IG elite units like Stormtroopers are an equivalent of modern special forces. IG itself is an equivalent of RL massed elite units such as Waffen SS.
I'd say Stormtroopers are better than our present day special forces. While our present day spec ops are the best of the best they've still probably only been in the military 10-20 years if that. Scions will have been raised, trained and even brainwashed to be the perfect soldier from childhood.
Taffy17 wrote: I'd say Stormtroopers are better than our present day special forces. While our present day spec ops are the best of the best they've still probably only been in the military 10-20 years if that. Scions will have been raised, trained and even brainwashed to be the perfect soldier from childhood.
Modern day spec ops can't survive falling from space.
Well...maybe everyone except the airborne Spetsnaz. You never know with the Airborne Spetsnaz.
But falling from space? Tempestus Scion outfits don't look that airtight.
I'm gonna assume they use their grav chutes to slow decent which seems reasonable.
Where did you read that?
Codex Tempestus Scions, it is one of the timeline events. I remember it because the Scions were ejected out of their ships' airlocks and presumably made it through atmospheric entry unscathed with just their carapace armours and some specially made shielding devices and made planet fall using grav-chutes, because the planet's group defenses are capable of shooting down Flesh Tearer drop pods and force thunderhawks to retreat. It's a cool mental image but it is a bit hard for me to think a men can survive the atmospheric drag and heating with what they had, then again I'm sure what the shielding is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S.: P50, The Chainsword and the Knives
Ahh I'm tempted to get that book but I've heard bad things about it.
I always thought spec ops were cooler than super soldiers and ODSTs were cooler than Spartans though.
Skitarii... are more than capable of being as powerful as Space Marines on an individual basis (Bionic marines lose no power from the conversion), but I suspect they would be held back by logistical concerns - a Skitarii is not as fuel-efficient as a Marine, as it's still working with human systems on some levels, and requires multiple fuel sources (ingested nutrients as well as chemical reactants).
Taffy17 wrote: Ahh I'm tempted to get that book but I've heard bad things about it. I always thought spec ops were cooler than super soldiers and ODSTs were cooler than Spartans though.
I love both, so I always do me some Raven Guard on the side.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: Skitarii... are more than capable of being as powerful as Space Marines on an individual basis
Unless you are talking big stuff (Kataphron and above) I do not consider that very likely...
Whilst I have given what I believe to be a valid defence of why marines could be that fast. Yeah, I totally concede that I have no idea how you would fuel such a thing.
The only explanation could possibly be that they are changed so much on a cellular level, that they can yield significantly more energy per gram of food that average humans can, but well.... That would start breaking the rules of chemistry so yeah.
How you would feed such a thing I have no idea, maybe they are linked up directly to their fusion reactors haha.
I wonder how long a marine could last on the cannibalism of their own protein mass?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The only explanation could possibly be that they are changed so much on a cellular level, that they can yield significantly more energy per gram of food that average humans can
I would doubt so. Space Marines are made from human teens by adding through surgerie their various new organs which in turn affect an normal human physical developpement. It takes about 6 years to do all the procedure and it's even possible to interrupt it and have some subject still be alive and very fonctionnal. The changes from human to Space Marines isn't that drastic from a biological point of view. Space Marines are still recognisable has human. Since they have been described extensively, we can assume that everything that hasn't been improved should fall under normal human parameters. For exemple, Space Marines have one useless toe, hair made and nails made of soft keratine, etc. So their cells work much like humans ones with the exception of laraman cell.
Even though I've suggested it, I'm unsure if it is feasable chemically. You can obtain 4.1kcal of energy per gram of carbs for example. Now I think that is like the set in stone energy rate that can be obtained, hence how they can count calories in food, they burn it, now, if someone were to say different animals in the planet can ovtain more than 4.1kcal of energy from carbs, we can start talking, but I don't think we can.
Anyway, we could start talking about genetically modified foods that are grown. Maybe they can create potatoes that are so dense of carbs that they can get 10000kcal per one. Digestion wise, marines have a few advantages to eating such foods, acid saliva must help with the breakdown of it!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and on the notion of the amount of poop they make... If they are modified to have the correct enzymes (ones that can process fiber for example) they may not create much waste at all. Theoretically anyway, if it isn't discussed in the fluff, then it is speculation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A thoughts just crossed my mind... The amount of augmentation and expansion a marines central nervous must go would be just ridiculous. It's no good having all these extra organs, and mutated organs if the neural links aren't there for the brain to use them... How does the brain know it can now send messages to create acid. The process has never been possible before?
The old fluff where marines were chemically stimmed and borderline brainwashed along with extensive psychosurgery and conditioning that turned them into mutated abhuman monsters made it all a bit more Plausable, the latest fluff where they control their augmentations through being a spiritual monk is ridiculous.
I would doubt so. Space Marines are made from human teens by adding through surgerie their various new organs which in turn affect an normal human physical developpement. It takes about 6 years to do all the procedure and it's even possible to interrupt it and have some subject still be alive and very fonctionnal
Its closer to ten years, and the best results come from starting with preteens - ten to twelve year olds.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Whilst I have given what I believe to be a valid defence of why marines could be that fast. Yeah, I totally concede that I have no idea how you would fuel such a thing.
The only explanation could possibly be that they are changed so much on a cellular level, that they can yield significantly more energy per gram of food that average humans can, but well.... That would start breaking the rules of chemistry so yeah.
How you would feed such a thing I have no idea, maybe they are linked up directly to their fusion reactors haha.
I wonder how long a marine could last on the cannibalism of their own protein mass?
Imma let you finish, but...
This is 40K. Inclusion of/discussion of/comparison to real-world physics/chemistry/metallurgy/science of any kind has no place here, and trying to reconcile the two is a path that ends only in madness and ruin.
They stand better chances with plasmas than with lasguns.
. Sorry for the private joke.
ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.
