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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

It is not inferior in strength.

It is. See Lexicanum.

It is not clumsy or unwieldy, it just does not act as a second skin. This mean that if a marine and a sister wanted to read something in braille, then the sister would need to remove the armor, while the marine could keep it. So, it is indeed an advantage for the marine. But usually, on a battlefield, people do not read braille. The aim, pull triggers, run, hide and all that. In which scenario is the second skin stuff going to help?

I have the feeling you're pulling my leg.

 curran12 wrote:
No Sisters have fallen to Chaos in canon.

Plenty of Marines have.

That speaks to greater willpower and faith.

Sabathiel is canon. Deal with it. As is her traitor Order.

Lower number of traitor SoB can easily be ascribed to

1. Lower number of SoB, and much shorter time where they have been active

2. Shorter life means less exposure to corruption

3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption.

Seriously, corruption is subtle and works over time. A SoB who dies in battle at age 45 is going to be exposed to much less sources of corruption (open Warp rifts, etc.) than a Marine who dies in battle at age 300.

Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear?

 Tyran wrote:
That doesn't means they are at the same level as the Marines.

They are close. In the statistics and in the fluff.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have the feeling you're pulling my leg.

I cannot. Your leg is in Sweden, and I am in France!

 Ashiraya wrote:
2. Shorter life means less exposure to corruption

Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live?

 Ashiraya wrote:
3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption.

Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear?

Because they Act of Faith instead!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live?

Battle Sisters are not Inquisitors.

Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos

Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics. If your mind is hardened, you won't get corrupted by killing mere heretics, whether you're Tempestus Scion or Grey Knight.

Are they really that often sent against CSM? I can only think of one or two occasions, and SoB usually get manhandled (heh) in the process.

Because they Act of Faith instead!

But they do Fear!

Looks like your average Ministorum Priest is better at faith than your elite Sororitas. )))

 Ashiraya wrote:
Battle Sisters are not Inquisitors.

No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics.

Do you know who summons daemons? Simple heretics. Who complete Chaos rituals? Simple heretics. Who has very strong psykers? Simple heretics.
Simple heretics can do a whole lot of harm. Especially about corruption.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are they really that often sent against CSM?

Fighting CSM is no more likely than fighting other heretics to turn you. Actually, I would say it is less likely for most CSM warbands. How likely are some Khorne berzerkers to try to corrupt you? How likely are Thousand Sons to try?

 Ashiraya wrote:
But they do Fear!

Way better than turncloacking!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.

Source?

Iirc Hammer and Anvils, for instance.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.

Source?

Pretty much all high ranking Imperials have access to it - however I don;t really see that we can really compare longevity of Sisters (or high ranking Imperial officers of whichever branch) with the "potential" lifespan of the Astartes.

I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....

Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it, second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does. as the armor and servos move in response to the body but not with it, so there is always a momentary drag. Training helps compensate for it, but if you don't have the neural interface it is something that the soldier has to deal with. and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work. it is an exoskeleton based power suit. it works that way in starship troopers, which the space marine concept is based on and it is stated in the entry for the black carapace in both the current codex and the index astartes where the original Power armor entry fluff was published.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....

Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.

A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.

DKoK tag team incoming in 3... 2...

How do you think Marines would fair against standard Scitarii?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.

DKoK tag team incoming in 3... 2...

Yeah, calling down a few hundred Earthshaker rounds on the pod vicinity should fix that problem, very quickly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.

What marines?

*Artillery fires*

*Space Marines pass Dodge test*

fosfosfosfosfosfosfosfos

 GKTiberius wrote:
Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it

I am pretty sure I read some fluff saying they it does.

 GKTiberius wrote:
second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does.

I have never, ever read of any kind of lag in power armor. There was no initiative penalty for wearing power armor in Inquisitor, and I doubt there was in any RPG ever.

 GKTiberius wrote:
and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work.

No, it works with technomagic from the future!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
*Artillery fires*

*Space Marines pass Dodge test*

fosfosfosfosfosfosfosfos

How do you dodge an explosion that literally surrounds you in ever direction?

*Cyclonic torpedo bombarding the whole planet from orbit until the planet core explode*

*Sister pass dodge test*

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How do you dodge an explosion that literally surrounds you in ever direction?

*Cyclonic torpedo bombarding the whole planet from orbit until the planet core explode*

*Sister pass dodge test*

Because the AB of the Space Marine is greater than the number of meters he must dodge to avoid the blast!

I… what? Are you into your “Space Marines defy the laws of physics exactly like Flash does because BL writers use bad hyperbole” again?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....

Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.

Isn't physical strength and durability one of the main things they test potential solider for in anceint and modern battlefields? And one of the big reasons cited why women (rightly or wrongly) are less suitable for warfare?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Marine fanboys (which includes, by their own admission, the Fantasy Flight team) are contractually incapable of admitting that Sororitas power armour (and everything else Sororitas-related) is anything other than inferior in every way, there's just no arguing with them.

I mean, come on, FFG went so far as to state that Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. So much for "a standart part of the armour".

Well whats the purpose behind the black carapace if it doesn't increase the effectiveness of the armor? Don't the sororitas wear their armor like any non-spacemarine? In a more inefficient, non-interfaced manner?

Don't you have to move out of the area explosion to avoid taking damage? There's no way a Marine could dodge an Earthshaker explosion radius, let alone a few dozen.

Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Are you arguing that using a random mechanic from an apparently badly designed RPG is a valid substitute for any kind of logic and common sense?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Are you arguing that using a random mechanic from an apparently badly designed RPG is a valid substitute for any kind of logic and common sense?

40K neither has any logic or common sense. What franchise do you think you're in the fanbase of? Halo?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Blast weapons don't need to hit you to kill you, and the Hard Target modifier isn't sufficient to make a weapon with a large blast miss by enough to matter. If the weapon's Blast rating is higher than your AGI Bonus, then you cannot even make a Dodge test against the attack. Even divided, it's more damage than a Space Marine from DW can handle, on average.

48d10+120 Pen 8 becomes 4d10+10 Pen 8. Average damage is 32 damage (5.5x4+10), with 8 points of the SM's PA ignored, reducing torso AP to 2.

Average SM Toughness Bonus is 6, with Unnatural Toughness 3, so reduces damage by 9 points, with an extra +2 damage soaked from Armor. SM takes 21 Wounds from the first shell. Second shell brings him to 42 damage (and probably Critical Wounds), 3rd shell kills him, hands down, burn a Fate Point.

4th shell turns him into ant sized marine parts, no more fate points.

To compare Space Marines to othr humans soldiers in term of worth is rather hard, but it's actually rather easy with Sisters of Battle because they share so much in common. For one, they basically have the same gear. Sororitas power armor offer about the same proctection, but are overall lower quality because they don't have all the kinks and options of Space Marines ones like strength boosting or mag boots. Sororitas bolters are a little bit better overall, but Space Marines ones, are just has powerful. Chainswords, monoswords, power swords and other close combat weapon are virtually identical since there never was a mention of it their models and technologie being of different quality so they fall under the curtain of that quote from the Witch Hunter Codex: «The Sisters of Battle are exceptionnaly well equipped, with weapons and armor the equal of any Space Marine Chapter.»

They also have comparable training. From infancy to adulthood. I would be tempted to give a small edge to Sisters of Battle since they have only one none excellence base criteria to become one (being a women) of them while Space Marines have three (being a men, being compatible with the geneseed, survive the surgeries). While of course their training is very different, it's of overall similar quality and offer similar results. Finaly, both can gain similar amount of experience. Space marines can live centuries thanks to their biologie while Sisters of Battle can receive rejuvenat treatment that gives them similar longevity.

Their difference comes down to their physical capacity where the Space Marines is obviously superior except when it comes to ranged encounter where things gets more balanced because of the technologie involved. Overall I would say a Space Marines is worth 2.75 Sister of Battle in raw combat strength.

When you go down to Scions I would say 4.25 since Scions have better ranged weapons, but worse armor and slightly inferior training.

When it comes to skitarii (at least the basic ones like rangers and vanguard) I would put it at 4 since their weapons are weaker than those of the skitarii and have a disadvantage when it comes to accuracy.

And each Space Marines would be worth around 16 guardsmen from regular planets and maybe 10 Cadians or Krieg since these are supposed to be superior. Of course this only consider a single marines. In squad, these numbers will be affected by the Astartes incredible tactical acumen and teamwork.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.

If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.