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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 17:03:55
Subject: Re:Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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It is. See Lexicanum. It is not clumsy or unwieldy, it just does not act as a second skin. This mean that if a marine and a sister wanted to read something in braille, then the sister would need to remove the armor, while the marine could keep it. So, it is indeed an advantage for the marine. But usually, on a battlefield, people do not read braille. The aim, pull triggers, run, hide and all that. In which scenario is the second skin stuff going to help? I have the feeling you're pulling my leg. curran12 wrote:No Sisters have fallen to Chaos in canon. Plenty of Marines have. That speaks to greater willpower and faith. Sabathiel is canon. Deal with it. As is her traitor Order. Lower number of traitor SoB can easily be ascribed to 1. Lower number of SoB, and much shorter time where they have been active 2. Shorter life means less exposure to corruption 3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption. Seriously, corruption is subtle and works over time. A SoB who dies in battle at age 45 is going to be exposed to much less sources of corruption (open Warp rifts, etc.) than a Marine who dies in battle at age 300. Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/19 17:10:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 17:49:35
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Tyran wrote:That doesn't means they are at the same level as the Marines.
They are close. In the statistics and in the fluff. I cannot. Your leg is in Sweden, and I am in France! Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live? Ashiraya wrote:3. Marines generally take on even more dangerous missions, which means more exposure to corruption.
Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos. Ashiraya wrote:Not to mention, if their faith and willpower now was so superior, how come they don't Know No Fear? 
Because they Act of Faith instead!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/19 17:50:03
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 18:04:11
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Need source on shorter life. Humans in 40k can live for very long. Have you seen how long Inquisitors can live?
Battle Sisters are not Inquisitors.
Need sources on that. Sisters missions tend to have them deal with Chaos more often than marines, remember. They are the one who will be called against any kind of apostate cardinal. They will also very often get called against renegade marines which are likely corrupted by Chaos
Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics. If your mind is hardened, you won't get corrupted by killing mere heretics, whether you're Tempestus Scion or Grey Knight.
Are they really that often sent against CSM? I can only think of one or two occasions, and SoB usually get manhandled (heh) in the process.
Because they Act of Faith instead!
But they do Fear!
Looks like your average Ministorum Priest is better at faith than your elite Sororitas.  )))
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 18:16:36
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.
Ashiraya wrote:Sisters more often are sent to gun down relatively simple heretics.
Do you know who summons daemons? Simple heretics. Who complete Chaos rituals? Simple heretics. Who has very strong psykers? Simple heretics.
Simple heretics can do a whole lot of harm. Especially about corruption.
Fighting CSM is no more likely than fighting other heretics to turn you. Actually, I would say it is less likely for most CSM warbands. How likely are some Khorne berzerkers to try to corrupt you? How likely are Thousand Sons to try?
Way better than turncloacking!
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 18:28:22
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No, but they have access to the same juvenat treatments. Canoness are usually very, very old. Way longer than they could naturally be.
Source?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 18:36:36
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Iirc Hammer and Anvils, for instance.
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 18:38:29
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Pretty much all high ranking Imperials have access to it - however I don;t really see that we can really compare longevity of Sisters (or high ranking Imperial officers of whichever branch) with the "potential" lifespan of the Astartes.
I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 19:27:56
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Member of the Malleus
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Second skin doesn't imply that they can feel through it, second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does. as the armor and servos move in response to the body but not with it, so there is always a momentary drag. Training helps compensate for it, but if you don't have the neural interface it is something that the soldier has to deal with. and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work. it is an exoskeleton based power suit. it works that way in starship troopers, which the space marine concept is based on and it is stated in the entry for the black carapace in both the current codex and the index astartes where the original Power armor entry fluff was published.
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The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 19:29:48
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions
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Mr Morden wrote:I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.
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amanita wrote:So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote:No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 19:54:12
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 19:59:02
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Xenomancers wrote:A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.
DKoK tag team incoming in 3... 2...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 20:05:12
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
UK
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How do you think Marines would fair against standard Scitarii?
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"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 20:11:01
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ashiraya wrote: Xenomancers wrote:A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.
DKoK tag team incoming in 3... 2... 
Yeah, calling down a few hundred Earthshaker rounds on the pod vicinity should fix that problem, very quickly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 20:36:57
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Xenomancers wrote:A tactical squad dropping in from a drop pod would obliterate an entire IG regiment with relative ease.
What marines?
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 21:37:00
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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*Artillery fires*
*Space Marines pass Dodge test*
fosfosfosfosfosfosfosfos
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 21:56:00
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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I am pretty sure I read some fluff saying they it does.
GKTiberius wrote:second skin implies that the armor doesn't slow their reflexes or anything. without it there is a momentary lag, like someone trying to move with a heavy set of armor on as the limbs and other appendages can only move as fast as the armor does.
I have never, ever read of any kind of lag in power armor. There was no initiative penalty for wearing power armor in Inquisitor, and I doubt there was in any RPG ever.
GKTiberius wrote:and before anyone screams source at me, that is how power armor work.
No, it works with technomagic from the future! Automatically Appended Next Post: Ashiraya wrote:*Artillery fires*
*Space Marines pass Dodge test*
fosfosfosfosfosfosfosfos
How do you dodge an explosion that literally surrounds you in ever direction?
*Cyclonic torpedo bombarding the whole planet from orbit until the planet core explode*
*Sister pass dodge test*
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/19 21:57:29
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:00:58
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How do you dodge an explosion that literally surrounds you in ever direction?
*Cyclonic torpedo bombarding the whole planet from orbit until the planet core explode*
*Sister pass dodge test*
Because the AB of the Space Marine is greater than the number of meters he must dodge to avoid the blast!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:02:55
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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I… what? Are you into your “Space Marines defy the laws of physics exactly like Flash does because BL writers use bad hyperbole” again?
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:15:28
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Redcruisair wrote: Mr Morden wrote:I also am not convinced that the Sororiats are supplied with better arms and armour - its good, much more than most imperial servents can expect, but whilst it protects the same as Marine armour it does not give the same strength boost I don't think- its clear it gives some - so theyc an use Heavy Bolters etc without strain....
Now let us be honest here, how much does physical strength really matter on the battlefield? No much would be my guess.
The only thing that matters in a war is manpower and firepower, and the marines lose terribly, terribly to the guardsmen on both accounts.
Isn't physical strength and durability one of the main things they test potential solider for in anceint and modern battlefields? And one of the big reasons cited why women (rightly or wrongly) are less suitable for warfare?
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:25:16
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
USA, Maine
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Furyou Miko wrote:Marine fanboys (which includes, by their own admission, the Fantasy Flight team) are contractually incapable of admitting that Sororitas power armour (and everything else Sororitas-related) is anything other than inferior in every way, there's just no arguing with them.
I mean, come on, FFG went so far as to state that Sisters have to earn their helmets in battle. So much for "a standart part of the armour".
Well whats the purpose behind the black carapace if it doesn't increase the effectiveness of the armor? Don't the sororitas wear their armor like any non-spacemarine? In a more inefficient, non-interfaced manner?
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Painted armies:
Orks: 11000 points
Marines: 9500 points
Khorne Marines: 2500 points
Khorne Demons: 1500 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:26:16
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Don't you have to move out of the area explosion to avoid taking damage? There's no way a Marine could dodge an Earthshaker explosion radius, let alone a few dozen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:27:50
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:31:05
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Are you arguing that using a random mechanic from an apparently badly designed RPG is a valid substitute for any kind of logic and common sense?
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:41:59
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ashiraya wrote:Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.
Soak 48d10+120 pen 8
I have my doubts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 22:44:23
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Are you arguing that using a random mechanic from an apparently badly designed RPG is a valid substitute for any kind of logic and common sense?
40K neither has any logic or common sense. What franchise do you think you're in the fanbase of? Halo?
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 23:04:19
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 23:12:15
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Blast weapons don't need to hit you to kill you, and the Hard Target modifier isn't sufficient to make a weapon with a large blast miss by enough to matter. If the weapon's Blast rating is higher than your AGI Bonus, then you cannot even make a Dodge test against the attack. Even divided, it's more damage than a Space Marine from DW can handle, on average.
48d10+120 Pen 8 becomes 4d10+10 Pen 8. Average damage is 32 damage (5.5x4+10), with 8 points of the SM's PA ignored, reducing torso AP to 2.
Average SM Toughness Bonus is 6, with Unnatural Toughness 3, so reduces damage by 9 points, with an extra +2 damage soaked from Armor. SM takes 21 Wounds from the first shell. Second shell brings him to 42 damage (and probably Critical Wounds), 3rd shell kills him, hands down, burn a Fate Point.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 23:13:25
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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4th shell turns him into ant sized marine parts, no more fate points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 23:17:02
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To compare Space Marines to othr humans soldiers in term of worth is rather hard, but it's actually rather easy with Sisters of Battle because they share so much in common. For one, they basically have the same gear. Sororitas power armor offer about the same proctection, but are overall lower quality because they don't have all the kinks and options of Space Marines ones like strength boosting or mag boots. Sororitas bolters are a little bit better overall, but Space Marines ones, are just has powerful. Chainswords, monoswords, power swords and other close combat weapon are virtually identical since there never was a mention of it their models and technologie being of different quality so they fall under the curtain of that quote from the Witch Hunter Codex: «The Sisters of Battle are exceptionnaly well equipped, with weapons and armor the equal of any Space Marine Chapter.»
They also have comparable training. From infancy to adulthood. I would be tempted to give a small edge to Sisters of Battle since they have only one none excellence base criteria to become one (being a women) of them while Space Marines have three (being a men, being compatible with the geneseed, survive the surgeries). While of course their training is very different, it's of overall similar quality and offer similar results. Finaly, both can gain similar amount of experience. Space marines can live centuries thanks to their biologie while Sisters of Battle can receive rejuvenat treatment that gives them similar longevity.
Their difference comes down to their physical capacity where the Space Marines is obviously superior except when it comes to ranged encounter where things gets more balanced because of the technologie involved. Overall I would say a Space Marines is worth 2.75 Sister of Battle in raw combat strength.
When you go down to Scions I would say 4.25 since Scions have better ranged weapons, but worse armor and slightly inferior training.
When it comes to skitarii (at least the basic ones like rangers and vanguard) I would put it at 4 since their weapons are weaker than those of the skitarii and have a disadvantage when it comes to accuracy.
And each Space Marines would be worth around 16 guardsmen from regular planets and maybe 10 Cadians or Krieg since these are supposed to be superior. Of course this only consider a single marines. In squad, these numbers will be affected by the Astartes incredible tactical acumen and teamwork.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/19 23:17:13
Subject: Worth compared to a Marine?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ashiraya wrote:
You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.
Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!
They split up and charge a-
Why are we even having this discussion?!
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.
If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.
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