From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?
A bolt pistol is a bolt pistol. The only difference between an Astartes-class and the "regular" kind is that the Astartes-class is built of better materials and is designed to fit his larger hand.
First blood angels' book. One of the marines hand's his pistol to a boy and tells him to shoot him with it. He's able to hold it even though it is pretty big. He doesn't get to fire it because the marine punches him first.
Though i though most Space marine stuff comes with bio sensors to prevent bad guys from using it it ala that dredd movie.
At least i know its incorporated into some of there weapons.
welshhoppo wrote: First blood angels' book. One of the marines hand's his pistol to a boy and tells him to shoot him with it. He's able to hold it even though it is pretty big. He doesn't get to fire it because the marine punches him first.
Heavier weapons have less recoil. Newtonian physics. If a Commissar can fire his boltpistol, a Commissar can fire an Astartes bolt pistol, even if he has to two-hand grip it.
troa wrote: We're assuming all bolt ammunition is the same caliber. That's probably not true.
In some places, they are said to be, but then anything can be propaganda, and there's noticeable differences between Astartes bolters and human bolters that are only really explainable by different calibers.
In addition, it makes sense to give more firepower to your big guys. Sorta like why a Leman Russ doesn't have a multilaser in its turret.
Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
I would say they theorically could, but they would be clumsy with them. The main issue comes from the size of the grip which is adapted to fit an Astartes armored hand. While Space Marines aren't that bigger than normal human, they do seem to have some non-harmfull traits associated with people suffering from gigantism (logical considering their creation process) thus their hands, heads and feets are larger than normal humans in term of proportion. This would make their hand weapons difficult to wield by normal humans, yet not impossible. Normally, humans uses other patterns of boltguns and bolt pistols than the one used by Space Marines. In fact, the pattern used by the Imperial Guard isn't the same used by the Sisterhood either and I think, but sure, that the Arbites have their own, more compact, pattern too. In resume, yes human can use Space Marines weapons, they just aren't easy to manipulate because of their grip and slightly larger bulk.
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Bolters are gyrojet weapons. Weapons designed to have little to no recoil.
Be a bit big to wield for a normal human though. Maybe if they were to mount it on a bipod, or hang it over a wall.
But they aren't gyrojets a bolt round is propelled out of the boltgun by a normal cartridge the rocket doesn't kick in until after the round has left the barrel. It's why the boltguns are actually effective at close range, where as the gyrojet was not.
gnoise wrote: From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?
I apparently missed a lot during the few hours since I posted this up. From the sound of things it seems that the popular concessions is that "Yes, a human can work an Astartes Bolt Pistol with difficulty", or am I understanding things wrong?
Bolters only come in two calibers: .75 cal for bolt pistols, boltguns, and stormbolters and 1.0 cal for heavy bolters (the mega-bolters on Titans are not at all man-portable and so aren't included here). It's been that way basically forever.
Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter... unwieldy, yes, but not impossible to operate (people do have two hands, after all, and many shooters will fire a pistol in a two-handed grip).
Whatever writer states that an Astartes boltgun (or pistol) has more recoil than the other models simply doesn't understand how ballistics (or physics) work. A bigger, heavier gun firing the same munition as a smaller, lighter gun has less recoil. Again, Newtonian physics, the Law of Inertia. However, an Astartes boltpistol might weigh in at five or six (or more!) kilograms of weight, which is featherlight to a Space Marine, but damned heavy for a pistol to an unaugmented human!
So, basically, you could go with it either way as, as noted earlier in the thread, Astartes weapons have all kinds of security systems to prevent their use by unauthorized, lesser beings. Of course, this did not stop a Marine of the White Consuls Chapter from giving Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn his bolt pistol as a token of recognition. Said human-sized Inquisitor... described as brawny, but not particularly huge or anything... used that weapon until it was lost in action many years later.
Given that it's going to be sized to be comfortably wielded by an astartes' hand, the handling of the gun is just going to be awkward and cumbersome for normal people.
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Well a couple of points,
1) Astarte's have always been around 7' tall since the early 90s so way before black library (although some authors do exaggerate)
2) The average height of humans have gone up by 6" over the last 2k years, whos to say the average height in 40k isn't 6' - 6' 6” That would put an astarte only a few ” taller than most people out of armour. Of course their mass would be a lot bigger.
The weapon is very hard to hold though, its made to a far bigger scale, it will weigh quite abit and in storm of iron the woman a marine enslaves to clean his armour notes the magazine is as long as her arm.
Even with lower arm that's a hefty weapon to use.
IIRC wasn't there the system that links the weapon to the PA that improves the accuracy? Like some camera or something so that the Astartes can better aim?
Khonsu wrote: Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false.
There is no true or false. The background is fictitious and often contradicts itself. Even GW won't commit to a hard canon. Which sources you choose to believe and which you disregard is down to you, but it doesn't make other interpretations objectively false.
Khonsu wrote: Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
Again, that is personal preference. I personally find characters more interesting when they are against the odds. The more "super" they are, the duller they become. Superman is probably the dullest hero, since he just has god power and can't really ever lose. What's heroic or interesting about that?
Daston wrote: 1) Astarte's have always been around 7' tall since the early 90s so way before black library (although some authors do exaggerate)
I don't know if that's entirely true. The first instance I recall of a marine being described as 7' tall was in the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex (around 1996). And that was a description of a captain, who was likely taller than the average marine, and he was in full armour. A lot of the early artwork shows marines as being similar to other humans in height when they are shown together.
Being a more normal human height is much less problematic when it comes to the practicalities of sharing equipment in the fluff, and doesn't conflict with the models being the same height as human models in the game. You can argue that the miniatures aren't "to scale", but squats, ratlings and ogryns do have their height reflected in the miniatures, which would seem to contradict that idea.
Daston wrote: The average height of humans have gone up by 6" over the last 2k years, whos to say the average height in 40k isn't 6' - 6' 6” That would put an astarte only a few ” taller than most people out of armour. Of course their mass would be a lot bigger.
The increase in human height is debatable. Many ancient people were stunted because of poor health and malnutrition. Had they grown up in the modern world, they might well have reached a modern height. Hive dwellers probably don't have a very good standard of living, and I'm fairly certain I have seen the inhabitants of Baal described in the fluff as "stunted". So it could equally be the case that the average height in 40k is much shorter than today. I think that is actually more likely.
Even if oin older stuff less of a height increase, there's the massively added strength, ie in modern terms like firing a belt fed light machine gun one handed accurately when a baseline human has to shoulder it and fire it from a static posdition potency.
The space marine could still run, figjht or use a chainsword at same time
gnoise wrote: IIRC wasn't there the system that links the weapon to the PA that improves the accuracy? Like some camera or something so that the Astartes can better aim?
Nocturus wrote: I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?
According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.
Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter... unwieldy, yes, but not impossible to operate (people do have two hands, after all, and many shooters will fire a pistol in a two-handed grip).
This. I've handled and fired a few pistols myself and while one wouldn't think of .45 as much larger than 9mm it does add up with a high-capacity magazine. A .45 doublestack is so thick that I have to use both hands for a good grip. I do have quite small hands for a man though.
Nocturus wrote: I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?
According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.
Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.
Nocturus wrote: I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?
According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.
Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.
I do own the books so have to check but there all in one so not easy to find, however both wiki,s go into detail and match about excluding the obvious one of course.
Nocturus wrote: I know it was an Abnett book, but wasn't Eisenhorn gifted an Astartes Boltpistol at one point?
According to one WIki it was a custom built model to a human scale, modified to to be of a size and design a human could use by the Deathwatch, so guessing by its highly elite armory masters so miles from the average model.
Odd, because I don't recall that being mentioned in the books. Eisenhorn comments in a couple places that he received it from a Space Marine (name of which escapes me for the moment), and laments its loss when it falls under the tracks of the threshing machine on that agri-world, but I don't recall the books going into any detail on its manufacture.
Librarian Bryntnoth, and he loses the bolt pistol at the Thracian Gate - its his power sword that's lost on the agri-world.
It's just a regular Astartes bolt pistol. Not custom. Just a bolt pistol a librarian gave him because Gregor's own gun was a pit pants.
Lets face it: Its a barely-moderated wiki that gets filled with whatever gak people feel like.
The page for Miriael Sabathiel used to reference Codex: Sisters of Battle (2e), a book that predates her existence, with the page number pointing at a picture that doesn't even have any sisters in it, chaos or otherwise.
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk. Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.
Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm. The only way you could fire such a weapon is with an augmentic limb (although the reactionary force would still cause you to stumble) or by bracing yourself. What you suggest is basically taking the NTW-20, cutting it down to the size of a pistol, and firing it. That will do nasty things to you.
Of course Bolts are two-stage weaponry utilizing both a traditional powder charge to punch it out the barrel with a secondary rocket activating soon after (and probably has some sort of mild guidance system so the gyroget doesn't screw up the aim), but that primary powder charge should still feth somebody up. Even if it's just subsonic, firing a single shot will leave you sore. Multiple shots will probably lead to bruising.
Except Commissars carry bolt-pistols and can fire them without injury. There's also been real-life weapons of that or greater caliber that did not result in broken limbs when fired.
If the Desert Eagle (.50 cal) isn't going to break your wrist when firing it, a bullet only half again as large in a weapon built from space-magic and isn't-this-badassium! with all kinds of magi-tech recoil compensators isn't, either.
Psienesis wrote: Except Commissars carry bolt-pistols and can fire them without injury. There's also been real-life weapons of that or greater caliber that did not result in broken limbs when fired.
If the Desert Eagle (.50 cal) isn't going to break your wrist when firing it, a bullet only half again as large in a weapon built from space-magic and isn't-this-badassium! with all kinds of magi-tech recoil compensators isn't, either.
We don't know what caliber the bolt pistols of Commissars are. Bolt Gun calibers are all over the place, ranging from .50 to 1.00, and there's lots of odd numbers mixed up in that range. Plus the Commisar's munitions might have a reduced powder to ease the stress on his wrist with more rocket fuel to compensate for the initial lesser velocity.
Also, while there are such high caliber weapons in existence, they're either mounted weapons like flak guns, recoilless rifles, or braced weapons such as the NTW-20. You do not want to fire an NTW-20 one handed standing while holding it up in the air.
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Ashiraya wrote: Not to mention the sick BS Captain America pulls off with that shield of his.
Vibranium stronk. Crazy thing can slice metal objects in half like they were made of paper. Plus the Cap is infamous for punching outside his weight and surviving. Hell he even one time took down a guy that Thanos considered to be an equal rival. Not only is Captain Murica cray cray, the man would certainly slaughter a Space Marine, and probably send the non-offensive Psyker Primarchs running for the hills.
Looking at fluff stuff I don't see how an "Astartes Bol Pistol" would be very different from any other bolt pistol, if anything it is either a redesignation of an identical weapon or one adapted for Space Marine use, as opposed to say, a fundamental difference in the way a sedan car is to a dump truck.
Sisters of Battle use bolter weapons, and unless these are fundamentally different from the ones Space Marines use (so far reading and looking at pictures don't suggest they are), the only real impediment is usage of power armour.
To that effect, the plain answer would be yes, they can; the detailed answer would probably be "depends on whether power armour is used and what weapon specifically".
flirice wrote: Looking at fluff stuff I don't see how an "Astartes Bol Pistol" would be very different from any other bolt pistol, if anything it is either a redesignation of an identical weapon or one adapted for Space Marine use, as opposed to say, a fundamental difference in the way a sedan car is to a dump truck.
The marine bolt weapons will have to be a bit bigger and heavier to account for them being big guys in big armor, and their gear will have to be very durable due to the nature of their missions. A regular human should still be able to use one as long as the targeting/security system allows it, ie. it isn't set to only work for linking with the autosenses of PA suit number 221 in the Chapter inventory. It might not be optimal for him - having to use two hands for a bolt pistol means he can't weild a sword too in order to look cool, for example.
Ofc, a targeting system you can't switch off would be a bad idea. Marines get knocked about a lot what with drop pod landings, explosions and such. I'd imagine a good part of tabletop "casualties" isn't dead marines or even wounded marines but marines who lost their gun, or power, or autosenses. They fall back so they can be put back in the battle another day.
Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGsDark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.
'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....
Note that the Eisenhorn series was written to accompany Inquisitor, a skirmish wargame predating Dark Heresy by a bit, and at the time there wasn't a distinction between mundane and astartes bolt weapons - Deathwatch and the Horus Heresy series have been the big drivers in amping up the difference between humans and space marines to extreme levels.
Recoil-wise, Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons per se. A gyrojet uses a rocket to accelerate itself comparatively gently and stabilize itself in flight rather than being propelled by a 'bang'.
A bolter uses both - a propellant charge commensurate with a 20-25mm cannon round (the sort of thing normally found slung under the nose of a jet or attack helicopter), and then a rocket booster to accelerate it even more.
A normal human in power armour (like battle sisters) could probably manage a Godwyn-pattern, but it'd still be awkward - a lower-calibre weapon like the Godwyn-De'az is more manageable and (according to the Blood of Martyrs and The Enemy Within sourcebooks is more reliable too. Which is probably because it's less overstressed by its calibre, and is probably a good thing because the Ecclesiarchy won't have Mechanicus tech-priests everywhere to do micron-scale maintenance on their hardware.
There have been a few examples of human-firing-astartes-bolter in black library books in the last few years - I think a guardsman at Koth Ridge (Purging of Kadillus) uses a Dark Angel's Bolt Pistol and seriously hurts himself in the process - which seems to be the standard view.
So, yes. The short version is as suggested by Silverthorne: Can a normal human fire an astartes bolter? Yes. Once.
Unless you're Sebastian Yarrick. Who is so bad-ass he can fire a storm bolter one-handed. Which is a weapon normally fitted to a tank as a practical alternative to a pintle-mounted 0.50 cal HMG....
Bolters only come in two calibers: .75 cal for bolt pistols, boltguns, and stormbolters and 1.0 cal for heavy bolters (the mega-bolters on Titans are not at all man-portable and so aren't included here). It's been that way basically forever.
That is not true. Bolters have different calibers depending on pattern. In the Horus Heresy rulebooks, the Tigris pattern has 0.60 cal, while the Phobos pattern uses 0.70 cal. The Ikanos pattern bolt pistol uses 0.50 cal.
The .75 cal for all standard bolter shells comes from Dark Heresy, but I am not sure how canon Dark Heresy is.
Well, FFG is probably more consistent than random novels, so as a 'more consistent' source, I'd go with the Deathwatch RPG rules - and state that human bolters ARE different to Marine ones, and any non-Marine regular bolt-gun user is using a non-Marine bolt-gun.
locarno24 wrote: Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGsDark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.
'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....
FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.
In any case, the Godwyn De'az bolter actually has a slightly longer barrel than the contemporary Godwyn bolters, and are explicitly stated in the Sisters fluff to be just as powerful. Its only FFG - self-admitted space marine fanboys - who are trying to change that, along with working to strip away any credibility the Adepta Sororitas may retain.
Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.
Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.
Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.
Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.
What? No, most humans would have a lot of trouble handling a 12 gauge in one hand. Might be possible, but you're going to receive some hurt after the first round. Even a .357 gives enough of a pinch being roughly half the size.
Take into account too a shotgun cartridge will not have as high a grain count per round as a standard rifle/pistol cartridge. Of course, all of this real world physics is kind of pointless since it really depends on who the writer is for the particular description of a bolt gun/pistol.
locarno24 wrote: Based off the background in the Fantasy Flight Games RPGsDark Heresy and Deathwatch, there is a difference between astartes and normal bolt weapons - which has since popped up in occasional references in other Black Library novels.
'Normal' bolt weapons like the Sororitas' preferred Godywn-De'az pattern are 0.75 calibre - space marine weapons (the bolter, not the heavy bolter) like the Godwyn pattern is 1.0 calibre. There is a mundane bolter chambered for astartes rounds - the "Angelus", which is massively lethal but only has a three-round magazine....
FFG also make a mockery of the Sisters.
In any case, the Godwyn De'az bolter actually has a slightly longer barrel than the contemporary Godwyn bolters, and are explicitly stated in the Sisters fluff to be just as powerful. Its only FFG - self-admitted space marine fanboys - who are trying to change that, along with working to strip away any credibility the Adepta Sororitas may retain.
Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.
Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm.
Except the fact that the .75 caliber round would roughly be around the same size as a 12 gauge shotgun slug, which is around 19.25mm if I remember correctly. So any human would have no problem firing the weapon so long as they held it properly. Boltguns typically are shown a bit bigger than they would actually need to be considering the size of the round.
What? No, most humans would have a lot of trouble handling a 12 gauge in one hand. Might be possible, but you're going to receive some hurt after the first round. Even a .357 gives enough of a pinch being roughly half the size.
Take into account too a shotgun cartridge will not have as high a grain count per round as a standard rifle/pistol cartridge. Of course, all of this real world physics is kind of pointless since it really depends on who the writer is for the particular description of a bolt gun/pistol.
It really wasn't that difficult to fire a 12 gauge one handed, I wouldnt do it often because that is not how you should shoot one. The .357 has hardly a pinch, though I have been shooting large caliber pistols since I was a child. Which would also come into play with Commissars, who have been trained since a youth in the proper handling of firearms. Proper bracing you can do it, and switching to a two handed hold would be optimal of course for any of these situations.
Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.
Or Yarrick, but Yarrick is basically Captain America retired edition, so eh.
Wyzilla wrote: Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk.
Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.
Wyzilla wrote: Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.
Are you sure you're not just talking about this topic?
Wyzilla wrote: Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm. The only way you could fire such a weapon is with an augmentic limb (although the reactionary force would still cause you to stumble) or by bracing yourself. What you suggest is basically taking the NTW-20, cutting it down to the size of a pistol, and firing it. That will do nasty things to you.
I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Bolters and heavy bolters are used all over the empire by non-marines, they have always been described and as big, loud, and having a "kick". If the recoil broke people's arms, then I doubt they would be so popular. So either the ammunition is very different to a NTW-20 (which we already know it is), or they have some kind of anti-recoil technology.
If it makes you happy to believe that space marines have much larger, higher calibre bolt pistols that would break ordinary people's arms then go ahead, you can probably find fluff to support that idea. But for me, there is no way they are bigger and higher calibre than a heavy bolter. Necromunda heavies are always depicted firing heavy bolters in their arms, and from the hip or shoulder. So the size and recoil from a marine bolter should be no problem.
Wyzilla wrote: Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm.
A longer barrel will increase the amount of force generated by the cartridge though, thus increasing the amount of recoil. Bolters appear to have very short barrels, and bolt pistols look as though the shell loads right in front of the muzzle. It's possible that they need the larger round just to maintain muzzle velocity out of such a sort barrel, and that the recoil isn't significant because the force is able to dissipate after only a few centimetres.
Psienesis wrote: Given that a Space Marine's hand is bigger than that of most humans, and even bigger in a power armor gauntlet, it makes sense that the weapons designed for him would take this into consideration. Thus, the grip to the boltpistol would be much thicker than that of a boltpistol carried by a Commissar or an Arbiter...
Whatever writer states that an Astartes boltgun (or pistol) has more recoil than the other models simply doesn't understand how ballistics (or physics) work. A bigger, heavier gun firing the same munition as a smaller, lighter gun has less recoil. Again, Newtonian physics, the Law of Inertia.
This was a great post. I do have a couple of points though; a gauntlet would increase the size of the hand, but it would actually reduce the size of someone's grip since it would add the thickness of the glove to the the radius of anything the marine tried to hold. So a big hand in a gauntlet might actually end up having the same sized grip as a regular hand.
Also, as was mentioned above, a heavier gun firing the same ammunition as a lighter gun might generate more force by virtue of having a longer barrel. If it would be enough o offset the weight, would depend on the forces and the weight of the metals being used. I imagine the imperium have metals that are lighter and stronger than steel.
Smacks wrote: Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.
Well, Marines are always described as giants, superhumanly large.
I don't see anything wrong with Marines being that sort of size.
Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
That's a matter of personal opinion. For me, it's the ridiculously tall and huge demigods which are boring an dull.
A bunch of physically imposing, incredibly well trained and geared, elite soldiers who have been heavily indoctrinated into believing themselves to be ridiculously tall and huge demigods, only to walk into their first battlefield and get crushed by anything AP3 or either a great volume of fire, the losses of each battle slowly eroding the self-confidence and belief of some of them until certain warp entities begin to answer all their questions... that's more interesting to me.
Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
That's a matter of personal opinion. For me, it's the ridiculously tall and huge demigods which are boring an dull.
A bunch of physically imposing, incredibly well trained and geared, elite soldiers who have been heavily indoctrinated into believing themselves to be ridiculously tall and huge demigods, only to walk into their first battlefield and get crushed by anything AP3 or either a great volume of fire, the losses of each battle slowly eroding the self-confidence and belief of some of them until certain warp entities begin to answer all their questions... that's more interesting to me.
I dunno. I find the Pacific Rim-esque path far more interesting.
Wyzilla wrote:Actually a longer barrel would reduce recoil felt by the shooter if it is significantly longer. IIRC four inches or more adds enough weight that the gun finds it harder to kick, and thus harder to transfer energy into your arm. Which is also probably why nobody else to my knowledge uses stormbolters besides Astartes elite or those wearing TDA. The kick from a stormbolter must be insane.
Astartes, Terminators, Yarrick... and regular Battle Sisters (although never on the table except sergeants). We can probably thank the power armour for that though.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, Marines are always described as giants, superhumanly large.
I don't see anything wrong with Marines being that sort of size.
Yes, I remember from previous conversations that you prefer marines to be in the 9 foot range. I think that's an equally valid view, so long as a person has thought it all the way through. My only concern is that people don't, and exclaim "9 foot tall" without really grasping just how insanely big that would be if you saw it, or the number of problems it would cause in terms of practicality. But I'm convinced now that you have thought it through, and that's just how you like it, which is good. Who am I to stand in the way of someone enjoying 40k with 9 foot tall marines.
Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.
Wyzilla wrote: Captain America isn't reasonable in the least. He's a bullet timing superhuman capable of rending metal and has even punched out the hulk.
Indeed, and all while standing at a modest 6'2". I don't think I ever said he was "reasonable" (whatever that refers to), I said that he was a realistic height for a human, which he is. I don't see anything wrong with marines being that same sort of size.
Cap ain't 6'2, that was just before the Super Serum. After the treatment he's probably close to seven feet, something like 6'10 or so, possibly taller depending on the scaling from some panels.
Wyzilla wrote: Also I once just took all the various sources on Marine height and did a little number crunching for an average. Average Astartes height is 7'6-7'7 or so across all material.
Are you sure you're not just talking about this topic?
No, later one. Just figured it might be a good idea to average everything, turns out the Black Library promo pic height is pretty close to the average itself.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for the Bolt Pistol, they're .75 caliber. Any human attempting to fire those will at the very least have a broken wrist, if not have a broken arm. The only way you could fire such a weapon is with an augmentic limb (although the reactionary force would still cause you to stumble) or by bracing yourself. What you suggest is basically taking the NTW-20, cutting it down to the size of a pistol, and firing it. That will do nasty things to you.
I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Bolters and heavy bolters are used all over the empire by non-marines, they have always been described and as big, loud, and having a "kick". If the recoil broke people's arms, then I doubt they would be so popular. So either the ammunition is very different to a NTW-20 (which we already know it is), or they have some kind of anti-recoil technology.
It's a .75 caliber munition being launched out of the barrel at supersonic speeds (it's definitely supersonic as I recall no mention of there being a delayed sonic boom, the BANG of a gunshot. So the kicker charge that sends the bolt out of the barrel is definitely over 340m/s with the rocket activating later and carrying it forward at a supersonic velocity), that will injure you if fired one handed, especially with a short barrel. I also don't recall any recoil reduction for bolters, they seem to just slap more mass on with the hope of weight down the weapon so it doesn't break or knock you on your ass.
If it makes you happy to believe that space marines have much larger, higher calibre bolt pistols that would break ordinary people's arms then go ahead, you can probably find fluff to support that idea. But for me, there is no way they are bigger and higher calibre than a heavy bolter. Necromunda heavies are always depicted firing heavy bolters in their arms, and from the hip or shoulder. So the size and recoil from a marine bolter should be no problem.
It's more likely that Necromunda humans are mutants with denser bones. Although they're not that good of an example considering that the Necromunda Heavy is no longer even in production. It's a dead line.
It's a .75 caliber munition being launched out of the barrel at supersonic speeds (it's definitely supersonic as I recall no mention of there being a delayed sonic boom, the BANG of a gunshot. So the kicker charge that sends the bolt out of the barrel is definitely over 340m/s with the rocket activating later and carrying it forward at a supersonic velocity), that will injure you if fired one handed, especially with a short barrel. I also don't recall any recoil reduction for bolters, they seem to just slap more mass on with the hope of weight down the weapon so it doesn't break or knock you on your ass.
Except that you know there are subsonic rounds that still go BANG. Because the BANG is from the powder going off when you pull the trigger, the CRACK is from the round breaking the sound barrier, hence the BANG-CRACK. Now a Boltgun goes BANG-FWOOSH from the powder of the casing to propel the shell from the barrel (BANG) and then the rocket igniting (FWOOSH). So its entirely possible that the boltgun fires initially as a subsonic round, like a shotgun slug or your average .45 round. Now using the slug example because the shotgun's brass and that of the boltgun as shown in drawings is very similar, wouldn't be all that difficult to fire for a normal human, ill advised one handed, but not impossible.
Non-Astartes pattern Bolt-Pistols may very well have recoil damping/reducing features to it, and while the Astartes pattern may or may not the weight of it, would provide a considerable amount of recoil control for the human wielder.
Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.
I dunno.
Spoiler:
Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.
That's because you're not there standing next to him in that picture. Faced with him in real life, you would be like "holy feth, that dude is huge!"
I mean, look at the sword he's got there. It's almost as tall as Lena Headey standing there, who's 5'5" tall. That's a fethin' huge sword! In fact, if it wasn't held at a slight angle, I can't guarantee that it wouldn't be as tall or taller than she is!
Psienesis wrote: That's because you're not there standing next to him in that picture. Faced with him in real life, you would be like "holy feth, that dude is huge!"
I mean, look at the sword he's got there. It's almost as tall as Lena Headey standing there, who's 5'5" tall. That's a fethin' huge sword! In fact, if it wasn't held at a slight angle, I can't guarantee that it wouldn't be as tall or taller than she is!
That's not remarkable. That's a slightly smaller Zweihander, they were wielded by the elite of German pike blocks in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance. Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly. The Mountain of the books is far taller, and is so large he actually can wield a zweihander as a one handed weapon.
Also, the actor isn't a giant. Six feet plus is no longer remarkable these days. But this man is a giant.
Honestly now we all know the space marine height is so fethin inconsistent that its just silly.
I think its realistic to think of most earth like planet space marines as 6-7. its also possible that off world or low gravity planets might see marines get to 7-9 feet.
Arent Grey knights from titan supposed to be hilariously short because of the high gravity?
Edit: Oh i just realized what you are talking about i cant brains right now.
Wyzilla wrote: Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly.
A plastic prop would be lighter, sure. But metal wallhanger replicas frequently weigh 3-4 times as much as a proper sword to make up for it. The Germans called anything above about 3.2 kilograms a parade sword. Ceremonial stuff unsuited for battle. The reason you don't normally weild a zweihander with one hand isn't the weight as much as the length and intended use.
Wyzilla wrote: Also note that the sword is probably a prop and not the same weight of the real deal, and even by a man of his stature, would not be wielded one-handed properly.
A plastic prop would be lighter, sure. But metal wallhanger replicas frequently weigh 3-4 times as much as a proper sword to make up for it. The Germans called anything above about 3.2 kilograms a parade sword. Ceremonial stuff unsuited for battle. The reason you don't normally weild a zweihander with one hand isn't the weight as much as the length and intended use.
No, length is an issue as it affects the balance. Without two hands you aren't really going to be swinging a zweihander, although you don't even swing a zweihander that much to begin with. Crazy swords have more in common with a polearm than a normal blade.
Wyzilla wrote: Cap ain't 6'2, that was just before the Super Serum. After the treatment he's probably close to seven feet, something like 6'10 or so, possibly taller depending on the scaling from some panels.
His official height is 6'2", according to Marvel, and it has always been. I remeber playing Marvel top trumps as a kid, and that was his height. The actor who plays him in the movies is also about 6'2" and you can see how tall he is compared to other people.
Wyzilla wrote: It's a .75 caliber munition being launched out of the barrel at supersonic speeds (it's definitely supersonic as I recall no mention of there being a delayed sonic boom, the BANG of a gunshot. So the kicker charge that sends the bolt out of the barrel is definitely over 340m/s
That's far from "definitive", sounds more like wild speculation based on not-science. The "bang" of a gunshot is caused my the propellant exploding. Even if there was a delayed sonic crack, the timescales involved would be so short, it would be impossible to distinguish it from the initial bang, even if it happened many meters clear of the muzzle. Also the shells might never go supersonic, they are usually described "whizzing" past, not "cracking" like supersonic bullets. It's a heavy round that explodes on impact, and has its own propulsion system, there really is no need for it to have a supersonic muzzle velocity in order to travel far and do damage.
Wyzilla wrote: that will injure you if fired one handed.
And yet, everyone in 40k manages to stay miraculously uninjured while firing them. So it's probable that a .75 calibre bolt round is completely different to a .75 calibre bullet. In the same way a 40mm grenade launcher is completely different to a 40mm gun. The recoil from a 40mm gun would definitely kill you if you were standing behind it, yet a 40mm grenade launcher has very little recoil. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Wyzilla wrote: It's more likely that Necromunda humans are mutants with denser bones.
Oh please! If you need to retcon the entire background to make your point, then you're probably clutching at straws. What is "more likely"? that every ganger and cultists in the background with a bolt pistol has mysterious marine-like "superhuman" strength? (which somewhat undermines the idea of marines needing bigger guns). Or is it more likely that superhuman strength it not required to fire a bolter, and that a person who has never seen one first hand (and only read about them in stories) is just wrong about how much recoil they have? I think the later is more likely, and requires far fewer assumptions.
Wyzilla wrote: Although they're not that good of an example considering that the Necromunda Heavy is no longer even in production. It's a dead line.
Not a good example because it's OOP or because it doesn't fit your argument? Necromunda is still a big part of the background, and gets referenced all the time here.
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Ashiraya wrote: Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.
People usually aren't as impressive in photographs, and it's hard to get a sense of scale. Seeing a photo of a man and a woman together, where the man is taller than the woman... That's like almost every couples photo.
But Lena Heady is quite tall. There are other pictures of him where he looks a lot bigger.
Spoiler:
These guys are probably 'average' height, but they look like midgets next to him.
This woman looks like a child next to him.
I think he certainly qualifies as standing "head and shoulders" above regular people. I think he looks huge, and even he isn't quite 7 foot. Imagine if he was nine foot. That woman would only come up to his knee.
Actually it is highly likely humanity has evolved significantly over the past thirty-eight thousand years, becoming significantly stronger in comparison to the original Homo sapiens located on old Terra during the second millennium. This is of course compounded by the fact that during the Dark Age of Technology humanity practiced genetic engineering for its colonists, leading to the creation of Ogryns, Felinids, Ratlings, Pelagers, etc.
Most damning of all is simply the weight of the average weapons in 40K. People tend to completely forget that by modern standards, an Imperial Guardsmen Sergeant would be peak human. Mortal chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms, which is pretty absurd when you realize that Imperial Guard Sergeants will slug it out in what is more or less constant battle for a couple hours at a time. This is forgetting that the weapon in question vibrates from the motor powering the sword's teeth, meaning it will further strain you.
So even your bog-standard 40K human is still notably fitter and stronger than the modern day human being considering that they can even use a six kilogram sword for any significant duration. And knowing the Munitorium, there's probably heavier examples. Just for example though, the Zweihander, among the largest swords that ever saw the field of battle, weighed in at a pitiful 2-3 kilograms in comparison to chain weapons. And given the history of warfare, probably used for just spurts of melee battle instead of having of fight off endless waves of Orks on Armageddon.
So yes, by simple evolution and genetic engineering, 40K Humans =/= Standard modern day humans. 40K humanity lifts.
Here is some food for thought about «giant» Space Marines. In the Bible, David, then a 15 years old boy of small stature, is the only men brave enough in the israeli army to accept the challenge agains the Philistan giant Goliath in what will become the most famous duel of mythologie. Goliath actual size varies from translation to another, but in the eldest copie of the storie ever found (in the dead sea scrolls), he mesures 1m95 centimeters (after coversion from the Egyptian unit of measure which was also used by the Israeli).
He is still described has a giant, not just a very tall men, an actual giant. Yet, 1m95 is six inches short to a Space Marine. If Goliath can be a giant, so can Space Marines. When GW write something, they always are careful to say that it might just be legend, propaganda or truth. It's much like the Bible which can be taken as truth, embelished history or myth.
Wyzilla wrote: chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms.
You don't know that. They might weigh 6kg if they were made from steel, but 40k has other metals that might be lighter. Also weight depends on what planet you are on. Earth is actually quite large for a rocky planet, and probably somewhat rare. On Mars that 6kg would only be 2kg, and possibly lighter still if it were plasteel. Of course, everything being lighter might also effect recoil. I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same... It might be hilariously over the top. The speed of sound also changes with air density (though humans can only survive in a narrow range of pressures).
As for "normal people" in 40k being stronger and taller than "normal people" today, I don't think it makes any difference. We have no means of comparing marines to modern people, we can only compare them with "regular" people from their own time. Everything is relative. If space marines are 20% larger than the "average" person in 40k. Then that means the average person will see them the same way we see someone who is around 7 foot. It could be that their 5'10" is our 7", so space marines are actually 8'4", but since we'll never meet one, it's completely moot.
This also applies to weapons. You can't say that regular people in 40k aren't strong enough to fire an astartes bolter without breaking their arm, and then in the same breath say that regular people in 40k are strong enough to fire heavy bolters because they have mutated. You then flick between the two meanings of "normal" depending on what suites you.
If everyone in 40k is bigger and stronger, then that is the same as no one being bigger and stronger. There would be no need for marines to have bigger weapons etc... as they would use the same stuff as the regular big strong people.
If it's only marines that are bigger and stronger (which is the same as everyone being stronger, but marines more so), and marines have bigger guns, which "normal" people can't use, then that doesn't explain why some normal people can pick up and fire a heavy bolter.
Ashiraya wrote: IMO, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson isn't a Space Marine. He is a Catachan.
This kind of leans towards the idea of "everyone" being bigger. which is the kind of the same as marines being smaller... (relatively speaking). I always think of Catachans as being like Rambo or Arnnie... Stallone is like 5'9"
Wyzilla wrote: chainswords seem to weigh in at around six kilograms.
You don't know that. They might weigh 6kg if they were made from steel, but 40k has other metals that might be lighter. Also weight depends on what planet you are on. Earth is actually quite large for a rocky planet, and probably somewhat rare. On Mars that 6kg would only be 2kg, and possibly lighter still if it were plasteel. Of course, everything being lighter might also effect recoil. I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same... It might be hilariously over the top. The speed of sound also changes with air density (though humans can only survive in a narrow range of pressures).
As for "normal people" in 40k being stronger and taller than "normal people" today, I don't think it makes any difference. We have no means of comparing marines to modern people, we can only compare them with "regular" people from their own time. Everything is relative. If space marines are 20% larger than the "average" person in 40k. Then that means the average person will see them the same way we see someone who is around 7 foot. It could be that their 5'10" is our 7", so space marines are actually 8'4", but since we'll never meet one, it's completely moot.
This also applies to weapons. You can't say that regular people in 40k aren't strong enough to fire an astartes bolter without breaking their arm, and then in the same breath say that regular people in 40k are strong enough to fire heavy bolters because they have mutated. You then flick between the two meanings of "normal" depending on what suites you.
If everyone in 40k is bigger and stronger, then that is the same as no one being bigger and stronger. There would be no need for marines to have bigger weapons etc... as they would use the same stuff as the regular big strung people.
If it's only marines that are bigger and stronger (which is the same as everyone being stronger, but marines more so), and marines have bigger guns, which "normal" people can't use, then that doesn't explain why some normal people can pick up and fire a heavy bolter.
Ashiraya wrote: IMO, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson isn't a Space Marine. He is a Catachan.
This kind of leans towards the idea of "everyone" being bigger. which is the kind of the same as marines being smaller... (relatively speaking). I always think of Catachans as being like Rambo or Arnnie... Stallone is like 5'9"
What the hell is with this potential alloy nonsense? The stated weight for one model of mortal chainswords is six kilograms. This isn't some matter of debate, this is a solid figure that states a common blade weighs over ten freaking pounds. And it is also to my knowledge, the only stated weight for a chainsword, although I'll have to see if a friend can check his FFG books for any more stats. But irregardless, chainswords are abnormally heavy, and it would take abnormal men to wield them.
Plus there's no reason to believe the Imperium utilizes any lighter alien future alloys when most of their stuff is extremely heavy. Boltguns are complete bricks compared to something like the XM25 or even the M60. The only exception I can think of is plasteel, but that's specifically used in armor, not weapons. Also, bolters would still stand a risk of injuring people firing them without power armor, especially on full auto.
Also, again, without knowing the powder or caliber of what weapons they're using, a guardsmen heavy bolter could very well be weaker in terms of initial velocity to save the arms of its user and in turn packing more rocket fuel. Like with all things in 40K, boltguns are heavily variable with their calibers bouncing all over the damn place. There's certainly though no reason to believe that the old Catachan Guardsmen character is actually wielding a fully automatic 25.5mm autocannon.
And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers which, critical thing here, are typically subsonic. Bolters meanwhile can go all the way up the hypersonic range, although typically are stuck in the supersonic range. Plus given the nature of a mass reactive round... they will function more like a bullet. In order for the round to do its job and detonate on the inside, it requires direct kinetic energy to pierce its target. This is not something like 40mm grenades do, at all. Last I checked your standard grenade launcher relies almost entirely on explosive force to deal its damage rather then raw penetration. Truthfully the bolter is more like a miniaturized tank munitiion in how it acts.
Even if you're a peak human, you would not want to fire these kinds of weapons unbraced
Wyzilla wrote: This isn't some matter of debate, this is a solid figure that states a common blade weighs over ten freaking pounds.
So what? You said yourself a regular person couldn't wield that all day, so either the source is exaggerating, or you've proven that non-marines are significantly stronger than people today. Which contradicts your other argument when you said a non-marine would not be able to fire an astartes bolter without injuring themselves (even though they can fire heavy bolters). You can't have your cake, and eat it. Your arguments are contradicting each other. It's apparent that both hive dwellers and marines are strong enough to lift and fire large bolters. Either you concede that hive dwellers are as strong as marines, or you concede that bolters don't require marine strength to cope with the recoil.
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And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers
I didn't say bolters had anything in common with grenade launchers. I was just pointing out that you can't infer anything about recoil just from the calibre of a round. 40mm is a huge round, if you confused it with a bullet calibre then you would end up concluding that a round like that would rip your arms off. But in fact, they have almost no recoil.
You're doing exactly the same thing with the bolter. You don't know how it works, why it's so big, how much charge it has. You're just assuming it works like something you know, and then arriving at the conclusion that it has huge recoil and would break arms, even though the background doesn't seem to support that.
I'd disregard FFG material, their take on 40K deviates from the GW studio fluff significantly.
Anyway, I believe that Astartes bolters and IG bolters are roughly same size and a strong human can fire Astartes bolter just fine. There are some models of regular humans with bolters and they're identical to the Space Marine weapons. Interestingly Marine pistols on models are significantly larger than bolt pistols wielded by regular humans. My theory is that Astartes bolt pistols are more like submachine guns rather than regular pistols.
Also, again, without knowing the powder or caliber of what weapons they're using, a guardsmen heavy bolter could very well be weaker in terms of initial velocity to save the arms of its user and in turn packing more rocket fuel. Like with all things in 40K, boltguns are heavily variable with their calibers bouncing all over the damn place. There's certainly though no reason to believe that the old Catachan Guardsmen character is actually wielding a fully automatic 25.5mm autocannon.
Just like to point out that, with the exception of the Necromunda guy, Harker and Brag, everyone not in power armour treats a heavy bolter as a crew-served weapon on a tripod or bipod mount... and Brag is noted to be freaken massive to the point where people joke about him being half-Ogryn.
Agreed. The Heavy Bolter is not meant to be a one-man-portable weapon to anyone normal, and there's a reason why storm bolters, equally, are always carried either by a man or woman in powered plate or pintle-mounted to a tank.
(Aside from Yarrick).
Oh, and the FFG sourcebooks also use a figure of 6 kg for a normal chainsword, up to about 15kg for a double-handed weapon like an eviscerator. Repentia are strong
Oh, and Dark Heresy 2nd edition has substantially toned down the 'twinkly space magic' side of the Adepta Sororitas that (to be honest) largely started creeping in with the Black Industries produced Inqusitor's Handbook. Yes, adepta sororitas weren't a straight match for space marines but they murder wholesale anything short of such, and an equivalent XP character - a Sororitas Palatine - can hand a space marine his ass if equipped with the right talents and gear, even in a fair fight.
Space Marines were never super large in Rogue Trader... they were no different to average height.. bolters were normal sized.. in fact all a space marine was was a human " champion" i.e. the same profile an Imperial Guardsman champion was.. only smurfy had a better gun and a better armour.
The whole idea was an army of "human champions"
The rest got retconned in by idiots who never had a good idea in their life
ConanMan wrote: Space Marines were never super large in Rogue Trader... they were no different to average height.. bolters were normal sized.. in fact all a space marine was was a human " champion" i.e. the same profile an Imperial Guardsman champion was.. only smurfy had a better gun and a better armour.
The whole idea was an army of "human champions"
The rest got retconned in by idiots who never had a good idea in their life
Huh, what? I mean, I get that Rouge Trader had a different version of space marines but I think a lot of people see the change in space marines from "big guy in armor" to "genetically modified super soldier" as a good thing. From a table top and galaxy expanding viewpoint it was a smart move to make space marines stand out more. Otherwise what would be the difference from fielding IG to SM?
Besides, this thread points out (round-and-round) that depending on the author a space marine and boltgun can vary to a huge degree. Some fluff is more consistent such as the new Horus Heresy novels, but obviously you can find some crazy examples in old codex's.
Yeah, but 5 points! The only way for it to make sense is if you have converted some really good-looking models for SSV with stormbolters.
Smacks wrote: I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone fired a handgun on Mars. On one hand your body would be significantly lighter, so it would be easy to get lifted off your feet. On the other hand the bullet would also be lighter too which might reduce the force in the opposite direction, though the amount of powder would be the same...
The mass will be the same. Therefore, same quantity of energy, same inertia, the bullet goes out at the same speed, and you get the same amount of energy transfered to your arm. The weight, i.e. how strongly you are pushed toward the ground, will be lower. So if you shoot at the ground next to your feet, you will be lifted higher. If you shoot at the sky, there will be literally no difference.
I'm not sure where you get the 'FFG write utter garbage that doesn't gel with GW' theory from, seeing that a) the RPG line was originally produced by BL, and FFG just took over existing material, b) everything put out by FFG has to be sanctioned by GW as in line with the canon/fluff as GW see it c) see b really.
So, as far as GW are concerned, what FFG say is what GW say, and FFG say that marine spec bolters/bolt pistols/heavy bolters and the normal human equivalent are NOT the same thing - the Astartes ones ARE bigger/heavier/more powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further, I'd hesitate going too far back in the fluff to find examples - especially Rogue Trader (which I remember well when it came out.) If you do that, you unleash other stuff such as ....Female Marines (Sister Sin and chums) who acted as police to the other Marines, Leman Russ as an Imperial Army commander, Zoats, bolters firing "a hail of small calibre shells" and other stuff that just doesn't gel with the current storyline. In fact, I'm not even sure when bolters being a large calibre weapon was even retconned in - but I sure as hell remember that it was after Space Marine (epic) was out.
And Bolters have more in common with bullets than 20mm or 40mm grenade launchers which, critical thing here, are typically subsonic. Bolters meanwhile can go all the way up the hypersonic range, although typically are stuck in the supersonic range. Plus given the nature of a mass reactive round... they will function more like a bullet. In order for the round to do its job and detonate on the inside, it requires direct kinetic energy to pierce its target. This is not something like 40mm grenades do, at all. Last I checked your standard grenade launcher relies almost entirely on explosive force to deal its damage rather then raw penetration. Truthfully the bolter is more like a miniaturized tank munitiion in how it acts.
Even if you're a peak human, you would not want to fire these kinds of weapons unbraced
Again, the boltgun's initial firing (for the standard shell) can, and likely would be subsonic, but the rocket ignition after leaving the barrel would be so fast, that the weapon would certainly reach subsonic. Also judging off the design of a boltshell it would have more in common with a shotgun slug than a standard rifle round.
So its like if you took a Slug, a Rocket and a APHE 20mm Cannon round, then crammed them into one round.
Personally, I think comparatively smaller heights, such as 6'4", are more than enough the get people labelled "giant". I have a friend who is 6'4" and heavy built, and it's like talking to a building. I have another friend who is 6'8" and in all the times we've been out, I only remember one time seeing someone taller. If marines were frequently in the 6'5"~6'7" range and heavily built then it would be little wonder that they are referred to as giants and superhumanly large, without needing to get anywhere near 7 foot, let alone 9.
I dunno.
Spoiler:
Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is 6'10" and pretty beefy, but I would not really call him a giant.
I would, were it not that 2 metres is far from a rare height in the Netherlands (the average height here is about 6'2"). One of my friends is 14 and already 2.04 meters (6'9") tall (which makes for hilarious situations considering that I am only 1.58 (5'2") and actually older than him)
In any case, 6'5'''-6'7''' would make for really tiny giants.
Personally, I have always thought average Space Marine height to vary from 2.2(7'2") to 2.5m(8'2") on average. They definitely should be above heights that can be normally reached by ordinary humans.
eddieazrael wrote: I'm not sure where you get the 'FFG write utter garbage that doesn't gel with GW' theory from, seeing that a) the RPG line was originally produced by BL, and FFG just took over existing material, b) everything put out by FFG has to be sanctioned by GW as in line with the canon/fluff as GW see it c) see b really.
So, as far as GW are concerned, what FFG say is what GW say, and FFG say that marine spec bolters/bolt pistols/heavy bolters and the normal human equivalent are NOT the same thing - the Astartes ones ARE bigger/heavier/more powerful.
So untrue on so, so many levels.
There are outright contradictions in place. GW doesn't vet fluff. They have stated as much. Games Workshop do not vet their third-party products for accuracy or quality. They have stated as much.
There are outright contradictions in place. GW doesn't vet fluff. They have stated as much. Games Workshop do not vet their third-party products for accuracy or quality. They have stated as much.
They don't even check their own stuff for quality or accuracy, why would they check the work others? Besides if they did than the FFG games would become horrible.
Smacks wrote: Those Black Library authors have a lot to answer for. Space Marines have gone from being large but realistic human super soldiers (think Captain America), to being the size of The Incredible Hulk. This leads to all kinds of continuity problems, since it means marines probably can't use any weapons, equipment, artefacts, vehicles, or doorways that were designed for humans. They also can't ever move among humans covertly, and god knows how they're supposed to be stealthy as scouts, or fit in the tight corridors of Space Hulks. So now all their stuff needs to be scaled accordingly (guns, rhinos, ammunition etc...), and the primarchs (some of whom might genuinely have been hulk sized) now need to be 20 feet tall to make them more impressive (yet again) than marines.
In my opinion, all this talk of marines being seven feet tall can be put down to fanciful exaggeration, propaganda and "myth". Real space marines are 5'10"~6'4", the armour probably adds a few more inches, and they use the same sized guns and equipment as everyone else!
Most of what you've written here was explicitly stated numerous times to be false, Besides that really takes the winds out of the "Super-Human" sails and makes marines really dull.
Yeah that take marines from super-human to weird. They are just like every day normal people, but in power armor, and a little awkward, and douchey
jakejackjake wrote: Yeah that take marines from super-human to weird. They are just like every day normal people, but in power armor.
So Captain America is just like "everyday normal people" because he's 6'2"? Never mind that he can rend metal, or effortlessly lift 3 people on a motorbike above his head. Spiderman is 5'10", I suppose he's just like "everyday normal people" too. I always see normal people lifting a school bus with one hand...
Why would being 7 foot make any difference whatsoever to how superhuman they are?
Also a normal person in power armour is nothing to turn your nose up at. A normal person in power armour would probably rip and naked marine limb from limb.
Also a normal person in power armour is nothing to turn your nose up at. A normal person in power armour would probably rip and naked marine limb from limb.
Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge. Most of a Space Marine's super-human strength comes from his genetic and biological manipulations, the strength boost from the armor is just icing on that cake.
I have always thought it possible for regular humans to fire a bolt pistol. It is the weapon of many officers of the Imperial Navy, Imperial guard, Inquisitors, adeptus sororitas, and others who can afford to have one. It maybe...though BL has never officially said so...that Space Marine equipment is larger and not easy to use by those not modified or wear power armor like the SP's, to wield.
Psienesis wrote: Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.
I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…
I don't think that taking a GW purist approach is particularly more helpful given that GW contradicts itself repeatedly. Just take whatever fan and official material you want and call it your own interpretation, the official line of GW is that there is no canon besides what you make of it anyway.
I generally go with the 7-8 range with space marines because that's by far their most consistent height.
Ashiraya wrote: I go with 9', because that is to me just the right aesthetic.
Not saying Kain's choice is wrong either.
Sometimes I go with 9 or 10 when I write my fanfiction dribbles if I really want to impress their superhumanness.
Usually it's for guys like Chaos Lords or Chapter Masters. Especially if they're clad in tactical dreadnought armor.
I also kinda sorta have this fanon that Astartes continue to grow past adulthood, just at a very slow pace (one that isn't affected by warp time fuckery) so Chaos Lords and Chapter Masters tend to be huge dudes.
Psienesis wrote: Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.
I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…
Not really. Taking Sisters PA as an example, it provides a strength boost, but they're not suplexing Bloodthirsters or carrying Rhinos around.
Psienesis wrote: Not really, no. PA is strength-enhancing, but not that strength-enhancing. It does not turn Nerdy McDweedson into Beefcake McLargehuge.
I thought the servo-motors were doing more work than a human could ever meaningfully contribute to…
Not really. Taking Sisters PA as an example, it provides a strength boost, but they're not suplexing Bloodthirsters or carrying Rhinos around.
How much are you defining as much?
If it lets a person bench press a ton, that's a lot compared to the human baseline, but might not be enough to warrant going up a point in strength on the TT..
The Sisters might not bench press a ton, but they do carry and use weapons that most humans would only use on a tripod or vehicle pintle mount. And in my own humble theory that's because their PA does provide a significant strength and stability boost, just not enough to count them as S4. Just as marine PA is said to boost the marines, but they too stay at the S4 T4 that scouts have.
Maybe the boost is just not enough to make them very much better at killing. Maybe the heavy lifting systems are a bit too slow to be of use in close combat - they could do huge damage but only against inanimate objects. Against enemies fighting back they have to use their own strength, leaving part of the suit's systems dormant (though for drama maybe they did use the boost for that final blow).
The Sisters might not bench press a ton, but they do carry and use weapons that most humans would only use on a tripod or vehicle pintle mount. And in my own humble theory that's because their PA does provide a significant strength and stability boost, just not enough to count them as S4. Just as marine PA is said to boost the marines, but they too stay at the S4 T4 that scouts have.
Maybe the boost is just not enough to make them very much better at killing. Maybe the heavy lifting systems are a bit too slow to be of use in close combat - they could do huge damage but only against inanimate objects. Against enemies fighting back they have to use their own strength, leaving part of the suit's systems dormant (though for drama maybe they did use the boost for that final blow).
Given that Ork boyz with their superhuman strength and quarter of a ton average body mass are S3 and Space Marines have numerous feats to show that they can bench press a handful of tons (5-10 or so), I'd say a sororitas with power armor could bench press at least a ton, possibly two or three. She wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.
Kain wrote: I'd say a sororitas wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.
Aye, but that would be a dramatic finishing move wouldn't it? She can't use all of that power until an enemy is helpless in her grip. A normal human (that they usually face) will die just as much from a close-range bolter shot or a power-armored fist to the head. The sister will be free to engage the next target that much faster.
gnoise wrote: From my understanding, an Astartes Bolter is too powerful for regular humans to wield so I was wondering if it would be different with the pistol. Could a normal human wield a bolt pistol created for an Astartes?
It depends on how you want to interpret the fact that lots of non-astartes wield bolt weaponry. Imperial Guard officers frequently have them, for instance. Storm Trooper sergeants can carry bolters, Guard sergeants can carry bolt pistols and chainswords. Commissars, Navy personnel and Sisters also all use bolt weapons, too. Sergeant Harker wields a Heavy Bolter like an individual weapon - think about an M2 HMG being used like a M249 LMG! Also, Space Marine scouts can wield bolters, too.
So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.
Anfauglir wrote: So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.
Kain wrote: She wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.
Anfauglir wrote: It depends on how you want to interpret the fact that lots of non-astartes wield bolt weaponry. Imperial Guard officers frequently have them, for instance. Storm Trooper sergeants can carry bolters, Guard sergeants can carry bolt pistols and chainswords. Commissars, Navy personnel and Sisters also all use bolt weapons, too. Sergeant Harker wields a Heavy Bolter like an individual weapon - think about an M2 HMG being used like a M249 LMG! Also, Space Marine scouts can wield bolters, too.
So, you have two options. Either; you have Astartes-specific bolt weaponry that is too big/heavy/powerful for non-astartes, who all have to use specially made/altered/modified human-specific bolt weaponry. Or, all bolt weaponry is by and large the same, with astartes and non-astartes alike able to use them without difficulty/injury.
I would assume that Astartes and Human Bolt weapons would be different to better fit their owners capabilities in mind. I was just wondering about what if Guardsman John Doe lost his main weapon and while cowering found a Astartes Bolt Pistol that just happened to be nearby (maybe the Astartes that owned it is dead nearby or he lost it during a particularly grueling fight) and in the dire situation he's in he grabs it uses it.
gnoise wrote: I would assume that Astartes and Human Bolt weapons would be different to better fit their owners capabilities in mind. I was just wondering about what if Guardsman John Doe lost his main weapon and while cowering found a Astartes Bolt Pistol that just happened to be nearby (maybe the Astartes that owned it is dead nearby or he lost it during a particularly grueling fight) and in the dire situation he's in he grabs it uses it.
I'm inclined to agree. The size difference alone between astartes/power armoured hands and those of normal humans is enough to warrent different needs in size and weight. My head-canon is that the Munitorum/Navy/Inquisiton etc have access to outdated and/or surplus stocks of bolt weapons which they strip down and modify with smaller grips, lighter materials/compensators etc. Older artwork has Marines holding and firing bolters in one hand like SMGs/machine pistols... these I could easily see repurposed as an assault/battle rifle for humans.
As for your scenario... well, if we go with the two different types a Guardsman could pick up and fire a Marine's bolt pistol, sure. It'd be unwieldly, though. He'd have to get a solid grip and brace position... it'd be like firing a sawn-off shotgun or hand cannon, rather than a pistol. A soldier would know that, though. And in a dire situation he wouldn't hesitate to try and use it just because it's a little bigger and heavier than he's used to.
I think it is a given that Marine weaponry, based on their average size (from the BL and GW guru's) being 3 meters. It would logically follow that their weaponry is cumbersome to regular human's and of course fitted for post-human beings, i.e. the space marines (or even chaos marines). Aside from Ogryn squads...I think that it would be difficult to use one of the SP weapons. There is plenty of fluff--from Gaunt, Yarrick, adeptus sororitas, Eisenhorn, Ravenor...etc...that there are bolters that are made to fire for regular humans. I do not recall having ever read what caliber a regular human bolter would be. I can only guess that it is not as powerful as the SP weaponry due to size.
Anfauglir wrote: I'm inclined to agree. The size difference alone between astartes/power armoured hands and those of normal humans is enough to warrent different needs in size and weight. My head-canon is that the Munitorum/Navy/Inquisiton etc have access to outdated and/or surplus stocks of bolt weapons which they strip down and modify with smaller grips, lighter materials/compensators etc. Older artwork has Marines holding and firing bolters in one hand like SMGs/machine pistols... these I could easily see repurposed as an assault/battle rifle for humans.
IMHO I always thought that the Bolter/Bolt Pistol itself is the same (more or less) internally with all the other designs with variations to some parts here and there to fulfill certain jobs better then it normally would. IIRC the way the bolt fires is a 2-step process, first is the propellant that shoots the bolt out and then the charge where the bolt accelerates once it leaves the Bolter/Bolt Pistol, correct? From that process I assumed that the Human version would have less propellant so that when firing there would be less kick to deal with then normal and the charge will be increased to make up for the lesser amount of propellant. Meanwhile the Astartes version would be left as it normally should be or increased depending. I could be wrong of course.
Anfauglir wrote: As for your scenario... well, if we go with the two different types a Guardsman could pick up and fire a Marine's bolt pistol, sure. It'd be unwieldly, though. He'd have to get a solid grip and brace position... it'd be like firing a sawn-off shotgun or hand cannon, rather than a pistol. A soldier would know that, though. And in a dire situation he wouldn't hesitate to try and use it just because it's a little bigger and heavier than he's used to.
I was never under the idea that a regular human would be able to use a Astartes weapon in general with ease, so my apologies for not being more specific with my original post. I remember a small bit from the Helsreach novel where a Storm Trooper removed a Black Templar's helmet and thought that the helmet was far heavier then he thought when he was already expecting it to be heavy to begin with. So again, my apologies for not phrasing that bit better.
Spetulhu wrote: The Sisters might not bench press a ton, but they do carry and use weapons that most humans would only use on a tripod or vehicle pintle mount.
It's worthy to note that some Sister's Retributior models display additional 'geometry' on the armour around the gloves, and the same is true of someSM Devastators as well, so it is possible that PA can be made (or altered) in specific ways to enable carrying and shooting such weapons. So the capability may not be part of the baseline PA.
Then again, there are examples of un-augmented, un-power-armoured humans carrying and shooting such weapons as well, so, yeah.
IIRC, weren't the Minotaurs larger then the average Astartes? I would think that it might be possible that some Chapters would be larger then normal, whether it be intentional or not. Mutations can arise with some parts of the gene-seeds.
gnoise wrote: IIRC, weren't the Minotaurs larger then the average Astartes? I would think that it might be possible that some Chapters would be larger then normal, whether it be intentional or not. Mutations can arise with some parts of the gene-seeds.
Never heard anything about the Minotaurs being larger, that may just be due to how well stocked they are logistically. Minotaurs get the best of everything thanks to being the personal hitmen of the High Lords of Terra.
Too big for a normal human to wield, according to some sources, and not according to others . (Tau can wield them if the Fire Wariior game is anything to go by). In any case I wouldn't lose sleep over it -it doesn't add up like countless other things in 40k, and fiction in generel.
thegreatchimp wrote: Too big for a normal human to wield, according to some sources, and not according to others . (Tau can wield them if the Fire Wariior game is anything to go by). In any case I wouldn't lose sleep over it -it doesn't add up like countless other things in 40k, and fiction in generel.
The Fire Warrior game is best thrown out in favor of the book. Although most 40K are best thrown out anyway, be they the stupidity of DOW (Oops I accidentally lost a hundred god damn baneblades) or Titus somehow wiping out an entire Chaos Space Marine Warband- complete with Daemon Prince.
gnoise wrote: IIRC, weren't the Minotaurs larger then the average Astartes? I would think that it might be possible that some Chapters would be larger then normal, whether it be intentional or not. Mutations can arise with some parts of the gene-seeds.
Never heard anything about the Minotaurs being larger, that may just be due to how well stocked they are logistically. Minotaurs get the best of everything thanks to being the personal hitmen of the High Lords of Terra.
They're well-stocked on new things, not older things. The Minotaurs suffer high attrition even compared to other Marine Chapters.
gnoise wrote: IIRC, weren't the Minotaurs larger then the average Astartes? I would think that it might be possible that some Chapters would be larger then normal, whether it be intentional or not. Mutations can arise with some parts of the gene-seeds.
Never heard anything about the Minotaurs being larger, that may just be due to how well stocked they are logistically. Minotaurs get the best of everything thanks to being the personal hitmen of the High Lords of Terra.
They're well-stocked on new things, not older things. The Minotaurs suffer high attrition even compared to other Marine Chapters.
Newer things are higher quality. There's no point to carry a larger amount of MK II or MK IV except to invoke a sense of historical awe. The only old armor really useful unless updated is MK III for usage in boarding action.
Psienesis wrote: Not really. Taking Sisters PA as an example, it provides a strength boost, but they're not suplexing Bloodthirsters or carrying Rhinos around.
Well, I know it is absolutely not supported by neither the lore nor the crunch, but I could never imagine something human being able to provide any kind of meaningful contribution to some actual hydraulic cylinder pushing something.
Kain wrote: She wouldn't be able to beat you to death with a car because of leverage, but she could easily throw a man clear across a room with one arm and right through a window and to his death.
Yeah a SoB could probably crush a man's throat into pulp with her power armored fingers.
thegreatchimp wrote: Too big for a normal human to wield, according to some sources, and not according to others . (Tau can wield them if the Fire Wariior game is anything to go by). In any case I wouldn't lose sleep over it -it doesn't add up like countless other things in 40k, and fiction in generel.
The Fire Warrior game is best thrown out in favor of the book. Although most 40K are best thrown out anyway, be they the stupidity of DOW (Oops I accidentally lost a hundred god damn baneblades) or Titus somehow wiping out an entire Chaos Space Marine Warband- complete with Daemon Prince.
Stubbs didn't misplace them, he thought he could count on them but found that the unit he thought he could depend on was actually deployed somewhere else. Also, nobody really took Soulstorm very seriously between Indrick Boreale's accent, Gorgutz's sudden accent change, Caerys having the most god damn annoying voice ever, O'res'ka's hilarious freak out over the Ethereal's death, and Carron's raging hateboner for Rhinos.
Also; any action video game where the player uses a single character is going to have them butcher enemies in massive amounts. The Chaos Space Marines and Orks were on the wrong side of the player character, and that's a losing proposition for anyone in an action game.
