Consider this: Every single Imperial army now has access to a 2+ rerollable cover save IC for the low cost of 350 points. ( Sammael + Min Ravenwing Squadron + Darkshroud ).
He's the return of Baron Sathonyx for 7th, granting your deathstar hit and run, with the added bonus of EW and a rerollable 2+ save which isn't dependent on Fortune.
If your Imperial army has other native ways of gaining Stealth/Shrouded (cough cough Canticles) the Darkshroud is superfluous.
The new Codex: Dark Angel allows the fielding of an ENTIRE ARMY of re-rollable 2+ cover saves. Jinking doesn't affect their ballistic skill in the first and most crucial alpha-strike turn.
Where's the outrage? The torches, the pitchforks, the angry mob? This kills the metagame. The metagame has now been fundamentally changed to Armies Which Can Ignore Cover Effectively
and Everyone Buggered By Ravenwing. (Not that Ravenwing players are that common, but soon... the bandwagoning will begin. All the competitive tournament Marine players already have bikes...)
Some armies which have limited/no access to Ignores Cover are utterly boned. Ravenwing will give fits to Tyranid, Orks, and shooty Necron armies. Eldar,who have limited access to Ignores Cover shooting aside from rolling Perfect Timing, will struggle. Stealth buff to Tau (and Legion of the Damned ), but RW can be built around killing their Ignores Cover sources. Sisters have Dominions, but do they have enough?
This would be mitigated if they were primarily a shooting army, bu they also now have the tools to create a nigh-unbeatable close combat unit (Conclave Bikers + Black Knight Command + Iron Hands Chapter Masters) with a 5" minimum charge distance. They are also now a tier-one alpha plus assault army. In fact, they are possibly the best assault army in the game. ( Darkshroud + x number of Black Knights = 2+ re-rollable cover save, 24" moving, 4 str 5 rending attacks + HoW, -1 ws/ initiative , HnR, BS2 Twin-Linked overwatching...) Black Knight deathstars will be the Centstars of 7th edition.
I'm not saying that they are unbeatable, not by a longshot. They are powerful enough to force an entire meta shift, however. Auspex. Auspex everywhere...
I've been a Dark Angels player since Codex: Angels of Death and even I think it's a little excessive. Ravenwing has gone from one end of the spectrum to the stratosphere, to the point where if your enemy is unprepared without Ignores Cover or fails to roll Perfect Timing, the game becomes one sided pretty quickly.
P.S. (I am a competitive 40k tournament attendee, and play the game with the strongest list I can imagine to bring, in GTs where everyone else is attempting to do the same. I don't enjoy playing casual games or non-optimal games of 40k. This post is more directed towards the 'competitive' player, in as much as one can be, than the casual player. I am aware you can self-nerf in casual games, but they have little appeal to me.)
Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.
With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.
Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.
Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore. Either you keep playing and accept these good awful over powered nonsense list or you quit, it is an easy choice for some people.
The difference here is that Ravenwing lacks the same punch that a lot of other list pack in addition to being really resilient. If you want worse IoM list that people complain about look at the Ad Mech host that gets free upgrades, which isn't really to bad but it is stupid that something like that exist, or the Devastator/Assault marine formation. Plenty of people complaining about those two.
clamclaw wrote: Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.
With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.
Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.
There is loads of huffing and puffing over it. If you're avoiding the threads on it, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The free vehicles and the formation where everything gets obsec is a point of major rage.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Just the title. Having an army where your opponent can't kill a single unit isn't excessive?
There are weapons that allow no cover (like every single template weapon) and cover saves do nothing in close combat.
It's pretty tame when compared to the Eldar buffs, and even compared to SM it's no more than in line with what's going on at the moment.
I doubt anyone would run a deathstar like that without invisibility, otherwise WWP D flamers would have it too easy to counter it.
For my IG it changes nothing, after eldar, tech guys and marines being able to alfa strike me off the table in one or two turns, a ++2cover army is not much of a problem.
Makumba wrote: I doubt anyone would run a deathstar like that without invisibility, otherwise WWP D flamers would have it too easy to counter it.
For my IG it changes nothing, after eldar, tech guys and marines being able to alfa strike me off the table in one or two turns, a ++2cover army is not much of a problem.
that's what Conclave is there for, 10 rolls on Telepathy + casting it on a 2+. They can also hide in close combat for every turn after the first easily before the WWP D can come in.
They can even kill the Wraithstar in CC; Darkshrouds prevent overwatch.
They can also get 16 BS 5 twin linked, interceptor assault cannon shots.
If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.
special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.
The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore. Either you keep playing and accept these good awful over powered nonsense list or you quit, it is an easy choice for some people.
The difference here is that Ravenwing lacks the same punch that a lot of other list pack in addition to being really resilient. If you want worse IoM list that people complain about look at the Ad Mech host that gets free upgrades, which isn't really to bad but it is stupid that something like that exist, or the Devastator/Assault marine formation. Plenty of people complaining about those two.
Black Knights are punchy. Verrrrry punchy. They're punchier than most 'punch' units in the game.They're just rare, so people don't know how punchy they are. They are punchy and also shooty, like twin-linked Plasma gun shooty. And they have hit and run, so they can shoot and punch you most of each turn.
War Convocation and Skyhammer aren't even nearly close to the threat that Ravenwing brings. Both formations lose hard against equal points of Shroud + BKs.
clamclaw wrote: Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.
A. There's been lots of "huffing and puffing" over Marines.
B. Eldar is arguably the no-return cut-off point for many.
From Orks, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar to Blood Angels, Harlequins and Daemonkin, it all seemed fairly reasonable in 7th Edition. Eldar were the most powerful thing out there with a 6th Edition Codex and the relatively powerful Necron Codex could be explained as a fluke/mistake/unfamiliarity with Decurion-style army formations. People expected the new Eldar Codex to tone it down to 7th-Edition average.
With Eldar, all doubts have been removed as to what's coming. Codex-power-policy changed, and the cheese-breaks have been taken off for good.
People expected silly cheese from Space Marines. People expected silly cheese from Dark Angels. People will expect silly cheese from everything coming out in the future.
Are there going to be similar levels of outrage when Tau get a a new Codex where Riptides shoot you in deepstrike reserve with D-Weapons on turn 0 before you even deploy? Probably not. After Eldar, we know where this game is headed.
SirDonlad wrote: If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.
special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.
The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.
I am so glad i'm out of 40k!
I enjoy changes in the game. New rules keep the game fresh and strategy novel. I'd hate to be stuck in the same, stale edition for decades on end. New op rules? Great! Learn to fight them.
I happened to build a Black Knight army before in 6th for laughs. Spend to update my list? 0. Sometimes you get lucky like that
Balanced and playable rules doesn't mean things can't be changed and freshened up. It doesn't mean that there's no challenge in learning the best way to handle something new.
There's no excuse for poor rules other than a lack of care in game design, and there's even less excuse for not making an attempt to mitigate them after the fact.
But hey, you fall back on your L2P Noob arguments if it makes you feel better about having low standards.
clamclaw wrote: Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.
A. There's been lots of "huffing and puffing" over Marines.
B. Eldar is arguably the no-return cut-off point for many.
From Orks, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar to Blood Angels, Harlequins and Daemonkin, it all seemed fairly reasonable in 7th Edition. Eldar were the most powerful thing out there with a 6th Edition Codex and the relatively powerful Necron Codex could be explained as a fluke/mistake/unfamiliarity with Decurion-style army formations. People expected the new Eldar Codex to tone it down to 7th-Edition average.
With Eldar, all doubts have been removed as to what's coming. Codex-power-policy changed, and the cheese-breaks have been taken off for good.
People expected silly cheese from Space Marines. People expected silly cheese from Dark Angels. People will expect silly cheese from everything coming out in the future.
Are there going to be similar levels of outrage when Tau get a a new Codex where Riptides shoot you in deepstrike reserve with D-Weapons on turn 0 before you even deploy? Probably not. After Eldar, we know where this game is headed.
Eldar are strong but not unbeatable. Actual tournament performance has been spotty. Losing the DE Beastpack and Baron and WS spam was a big hit for them.
Also, Eldar are distinctly lower tier than Ravenwing/Iron Hands/ Conclave now. Only their Seer Council has an even chance, not even an advantage.
Balanced and playable rules doesn't mean things can't be changed and freshened up. It doesn't mean that there's no challenge in learning the best way to handle something new.
There's no excuse for poor rules other than a lack of care in game design, and there's even less excuse for not making an attempt to mitigate them after the fact.
But hey, you fall back on your L2P Noob arguments if it makes you feel better about having low standards.
No need for ad hominems, dear fellow. I never claimed the rules were fair or balanced; or that GW has any quality control whatsoever. No amount of complaining will make them better at it.
I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.
I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.
No. But your question was, why there is seemingly less outrage over post-Eldar books than there was over Eldar.
Outrage (or lack thereof) doesn't come only from dedicated powergamers. It comes from the length and breadth of the 40K-gamers.
And for the vast majority (except perhaps the hard core powergamers as yourself, judging by our posts), Eldar is where 7th jumped the flying, laser-shooting shark, jumped in long and hard.
Jumping the shark again, and again, and again with Space Marines, Dark Angels, etc.. just doesn't create the same shock. The first cut is the deepest and all that. It's not specifically about Eldar, it's just the Eldar were the obvious start.
As for me I was quite happy when I really do like the idea of 2+ rerollable anything ( also looking at you true names) having only a 1/36 chance to fail a save and then possibly having FNP on top is incredibly dumb and hurts the casual and competitive gamers alike.
For this I think I'm going to have to start putting auspex on my HQs now when I have the points to spare.
Eldar are strong but not unbeatable. Actual tournament performance has been spotty. Losing the DE Beastpack and Baron and WS spam was a big hit for them.
Also, Eldar are distinctly lower tier than Ravenwing/Iron Hands/ Conclave now. Only their Seer Council has an even chance, not even an advantage.
Yeah, I think the biggest thing lately has been the lack of total Eldar domination like people were proclaiming after the codex was leaked. From what I've been seeing locally (Midwest US) there has been a nice smattering of armies in the top 5 to 10 at every event. By no means a total Eldar win streak.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:Drop pod Dreadnoughts with heavy flamers and 2x flamer drop Marines could be useful right? Luckily I already run 2 of each in all my TAC lists.
They'll do damage (inconsistently) but not sufficiently to be a hard counter? Salamanders are suddenly a thing
I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.
No. But your question was, why there is seemingly less outrage over post-Eldar books than there was over Eldar.
Outrage (or lack thereof) doesn't come only from dedicated powergamers. It comes from the length and breadth of the 40K-gamers.
And for the vast majority (except perhaps the hard core powergamers as yourself, judging by our posts), Eldar is where 7th jumped the flying, laser-shooting shark, jumped in long and hard.
Jumping the shark again, and again, and again with Space Marines, Dark Angels, etc.. just doesn't create the same shock. The first cut is the deepest and all that. It's not specifically about Eldar, it's just the Eldar were the obvious start.
Ah... they've expanded all their rage and are now prostrate on the proverbial floor, and can only raise their finger (which one, I can probably hazard a guess) in defeat or surrender at this latest madness.
I do not think re-rollable 2+ saves are a balanced mechanic, but GW honestly doesn't seem to care...
Ah... they've expanded all their rage and are now prostrate on the proverbial floor, and can only raise their finger (which one, I can probably hazard a guess) in defeat or surrender at this latest madness.
I do not think re-rollable 2+ saves are a balanced mechanic, but GW honestly doesn't seem to care...
It's not about exhaustion. It's simply the fact you cannot destabilize the system further with individual unbalanced rules.
Eldar kicked over the bucket when things were by and large looking good. Now the bucket is on the side and all the fun ran out. Kicking it even more, jumping on it, running a bulldozer over it, just doesn't make as much of a difference as the first spill.
The balance of individual rules or books is irrelevant when the whole system is already down the toilet.
I stopped playing randos in the FLGS a couple editions ago. I also stopped actively promoting GW games to people, and I stopped caring about how powerful X codex was against Y codex. I think a couple guys already hit the nail on the head: we're no longer surprised when GW writes unbalanced rules. Unbalanced rules and unwanted changes is sorta their thing. And there's a smaller and smaller core of people who continue to play the game as it's currently written: house rules, tournament organizers patching cracks and holes, and groups choosing to play older editions is the norm and practically required.
I have trouble understanding why anyone would play 40K competetively. It's like watching an auto race where the entire field has flat tires and half the field doesn't even choose to paint their cars anymore.
Actually this codex makes my army viable again. The only thing odd about it is that the army got renamed to Dark angels instead of Dark eldar but oh well time to dust off some bikers and raiders!
Desubot wrote: To be Fair Re roll able 2+ Cover saves Can be countered pretty easily with various flavors of ignore cover and in CC.
Markerlights say hi o/
I kind of feel like they're starting to buff different factions across the board, and like a lot of the things that seem broken when they arrive (like wraithknights) have counters to them introduced in the next wave (like grav weapons). I think a lot of "7.5 edition" design is actually making the game more fun and strategic. I think GW is doing a terrible job of communicating that to people, though, and I think the way they're going about this edition upgrade cycle is leaving a lot of faction loyalists in the dust.
I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that, say, a lifelong Chaos player, isn't going to go out and pick up the new Space Marines or Eldar as allies, just because they featured the models in White Dwarf.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe less people are buying the Codexes and actually can be bothered any more?
Yeah, while it would be good that GW could at least be consistent with the strength level of its codices (even if that level is off the charts), I've just found myself no longer interested in the game. I'm keeping my armies (downsized a bit) and hoping to get games in with some earlier editions, but otherwise I think people are just jumping off the bus. Which is the final step of all of this- at some point those who are complaining are going to give up. As another poster once said: "The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy."
I think it is because the Eldar codex represented a significant paradigm shift. Up until then the meta of 40k was a bunch of bad codexes with 2-3 really good ones and one that is completely broken. Now that there have been two completely broken codices along with some good ones from the AdMech I believe people are waking up to the new paradigm of 40k where everything is cheese and laden with dozens of special rules.
Indeed you only get angry at something if you care enough about it already for it to bother you.
I've actually seen many real life relationships follow this trend in married couples at how it correlates to the gaming industry is a bit eery.
When one spouse begins participating in a behavior(s) that disrupt the relationship the other spouse usually will respond in any number of ways such as anger, sadness, etc. So long as these feelings are there then their is still a good chance of saving the relationship. However if the treatment goes on for long enough then the spouse under emotional stress will eventually 'tire' of feeling that way and stops caring completely and it is at this point that the relationship has little to no chance of being saved. The time period varies. It can be as little as 6 months to as long as 3 years, but EVERYONE has a breaking point.
Of course the trend doesn't directly relate( hopefully no one here ( or anywhere else) secretly sends love notes to GW while that they wrote in blood while sitting at their shrine of korhne sacricing their neighbors skull as a tribute to.... Wait what was I talking about again?)
I guess GW is just pushing to see how long before its customers break permanently.
what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.
bullyboy wrote: what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore.
This for me.
Between the absurd increase in power levels and absurd shennanigans possible, and the rapid drop in players showing up for game night culminating in several weeks of nobody showing up locally, it's increasingly hard to bother anymore. I'm going to pass on a local tournament for the first time in ages because it just doesn't look to be fun anymore.
2+ rerollable jinks saves are absolutely ridiculous. They're also just another symptom of the problem that's been going on for 6 months now.
bullyboy wrote: what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.
Hang on whats the relevant formation rules here?
Why no Over watch and LS support fire?
a darkshroud stops overwatch fire if a Ravenwing sqdn began the assault phase within 6" of it (you want to be within 6" to get the increased rerollable jink save). The ravenwing Support Squadron formation has 3 landspeeders and a darkshroud. It grants Interceptor, grim resolve, and strafing run. It also can fire overwatch if any ravenwing unit with 24" is assaulted. Granted, it hits on 5+, but still, with HBs, assault cannons and/or typhoon rockets, that's gold.
bullyboy wrote: what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.
Simple: the Internet doesn't care about Dark Angels. After Necrons, Eldar, Skitarii, and Space Marines, the Internet has exhausted all of its outrage.
There has been a lot of complaining about broken Eldar units and various other "OP" formations. Here's the thing: while there are Eldar units that are definitely OP, a lot of these new formations are paper tigers. They look broken on paper, but on the tabletop in the right context they are beatable.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.
I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.
I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.
That crazy superfriends 4 codex wolf unit was kinda cheesy as feth.
But the TFG able part really depends on who you ask.
Tourny players wont consider 3 rips as bad as a casual player.
I play nids. My plan is to start with biovore barrages to try and take out the darkshroud since barrage ignores cover. Failing that, use bubble wrap to let them charge into weak units and then let hormagaunts eat them up with massive numbers of attacks in melee.
A 2+ rerollable save is retardo. It should never exist in the game. But, if it's going to exist I would rather it be cover then anything else. Cover can be negated just by entering assault.
Lance845 wrote: I play nids. My plan is to start with biovore barrages to try and take out the darkshroud since barrage ignores cover. Failing that, use bubble wrap to let them charge into weak units and then let hormagaunts eat them up with massive numbers of attacks in melee.
A 2+ rerollable save is slowed. It should never exist in the game. But, if it's going to exist I would rather it be cover then anything else. Cover can be negated just by entering assault.
No a 2+ rerollable INVUL should never exist.
I think cover and armor is fine since its both still counter able without swinging out the D
... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions
Once GW started releasing codices on seemingly a weekly basis, I stopped caring, and in fact it made me interested in Horus Heresy, because I don't really have to worry about codex churn with that system.
I'll worry about any of the new 40k stuff when I actually see it fielded against me on a table.
jasper76 wrote: I'll worry about any of the new 40k stuff when I actually see it fielded against me on a table.
I'm basically at this point as well. Though, maybe all this op stuff will allow me to run knights again, and I will introduce the ravenwing to my Knight Acheron.
Dark Angels players should be happy, your codex is finally good and relevant and you guys should enjoy being able to have a fun, fluffy, competitive army.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.
Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster! (seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)
I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.
Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster! (seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)
I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.
Who even plays the 2++ priest hammer
Iv never once seen it. played on a tourny level.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.
Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster! (seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)
I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.
Who even plays the 2++ priest hammer
Iv never once seen it. played on a tourny level.
No one does as the IoM has more potent cheese than that
Thairne wrote: ... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions
I have yet to see an actual copy of the rules so please correct me if I am wrong about anything.
It would take roughly 18 hits to glance an AV 10 vehicle to death with bolters if they did not have any kind of save.
However the Darkshroud has a 2+ rerollable jink save, boosting it to requiring 648 hits to glance it to death.
If you play SM, that means it would require 972 shots at BS 4 to down one skimmer.
TheNewBlood wrote: Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
The new Tau codex (buffed or nerfed) will be the biggest gak storm of hate ever.
No one does as the IoM has more potent cheese than that
Apparently its enough to be noteworthy.
Let me see what is the current IoM cheese.
Bikescar spam,
Tiggy Star with Draigo,
Only things that come to mind atm.
list me some other ones that are actually played, (id actually like to know what is considered da big cheese nowadays)
You're about 2 years behind there...
Try anything + Allied Drop Pods. Most of the new Space Marine formations are extremely powerful, but we haven't had a chance to try those much yet.
Thairne wrote: ... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions
want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.
I mean it seems pretty clear that all IoM releases are fairly biased, as the majority of players play IoM armies and they are the "good" guys. It also helps that any OP/good stuff released with an IoM army is usable by all IoM armies. So worst case the majority of players can just ally and use anything great that is in the IoM since there is 0 ally tax for having as many allies as there are non-IoM armies.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
So much this... Loyalist players are the worst for having massive double standards.
Yes, the Daemonic re-rollable 2++ invuln save is beyond broken and dumb for example, yet Imperials can go pull the exact same thing in combat, (add an IG Priest + Santic powers to a Storm shield unit), and the only thing you'll ever hear is how "tactical" they're being and that Xenos players simply need to L2P to beat it.
Hell, all the best Deathstars in the game are IoM only, yet the only things that tend to get singled out as being OP/broken are things like Be'lakor throwing Invis on an Insensate Rage Bloodthirster! (seriously, outside of my own 'uber filth, how the feth are Daemons supposed to deal with Knight Titans/Tiggy + Friends Centstar?!)
I'd be willing to bet good money that Tau or Tyranids or Chaos could get a nerfed codex, and Imperial players would still moan & whine endlessly about whatever single gimmick would be left to pull with those armies.
This attitude really winds me up. It is as if you people just ignore all the outrage that IS being directed at the new SMs and Skittari. And then a thread pops up AS SOON as the new DA rules are leaked asking why nobody is outraged by it. Guess why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE ONLY JUST BEEN LEAKED AND YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST TO SEE THEM! Nobody has seen them yet to actually be annoyed.
There is no great IoM conspiracy. The Eldar dex was absolutely and utterly broken. That is just plain to see.
As is the new SMs, skittari in pods, etc. And ALL have been complained about.
And before you label me an IoM player - 3/4 of my armies are non-IoM.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Consider this: Every single Imperial army now has access to a 2+ rerollable cover save IC for the low cost of 350 points. ( Sammael + Min Ravenwing Squadron + Darkshroud ).
He's the return of Baron Sathonyx for 7th, granting your deathstar hit and run, with the added bonus of EW and a rerollable 2+ save which isn't dependent on Fortune.
...
Where's the outrage? The torches, the pitchforks, the angry mob? This kills the metagame. The metagame has now been fundamentally changed to Armies Which Can Ignore Cover Effectively and Everyone Buggered By Ravenwing. (Not that Ravenwing players are that common, but soon... the bandwagoning will begin. All the competitive tournament Marine players already have bikes...)
Chaos will deal with them the same way they have always dealt with Deathwing. Noise Marines. 2+ rerollable cover saves don't stand up to huge numbers of shots that ignore cover.
I know there are not many NM armies on the tournament scene, and you are not really concerned about casual gaming. But outrage doesn't come out over potential tournament outcomes so much as broken rules.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: This would be mitigated if they were primarily a shooting army, bu they also now have the tools to create a nigh-unbeatable close combat unit (Conclave Bikers + Black Knight Command + Iron Hands Chapter Masters) with a 5" minimum charge distance. They are also now a tier-one alpha plus assault army. In fact, they are possibly the best assault army in the game. ( Darkshroud + x number of Black Knights = 2+ re-rollable cover save, 24" moving, 4 str 5 rending attacks + HoW, -1 ws/ initiative , HnR, BS2 Twin-Linked overwatching...) Black Knight deathstars will be the Centstars of 7th edition.
See, the upside to all this could be that we are seeing GW make assault and close combat armies useful again. As a Chaos player, I would love to see this be the template for assault based armies. If Maulerfiends or Biker squads had a minimum 5 in charge range they would be major threats on the battlefield. For that matter, give Berzerkers an extra charge dice and see if they don't get more play.
To be honest, it doesn't surprise me the lengths to which GW will go to up the rules to sell more models. The latest Eldar release sealed the deal for me. Anything I had to say would be dishonest.
There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.
I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.
I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.
What is this selective memory of the Xenos and Traitor players?
There is a whole thread active right now saying new SM codex is ridiculous, TFG and OP. Two actually. One started by an SM player.
Thairne wrote: ... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions
want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.
it's around 400 bolter shots, jsyk
This is true.
But a cover save is no invul save. Ignore Cover does bad things to an AV10 vehicle.
How do you deal with a flying DP of Nurgle that keeps fluttering around summoning demons and casting powers?
You only hit that guy on a 6, wound on a 5 with bolters, and has a 2+ cover.
I don't do the math, but that is about as bad. I don't see everyone screaming how impossible he is to take down.
Any type of Ignore Cover weaponry will feth a Darkshroud up, it has virtually no defense otherwise.
And it's not like the meta is centered around high volume fire of mid str weaponry anyway.
What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.
Hell, IIRC, the whirlwind has Ordnance and ignores cover on it's str 4 shot, that's a 30% chance to get a glance. The TFC has ignores cover on it's Str 5, which means you can pen on a 6 and you get 4 shots, and if it's open topped, you can still explode on 6's.
Sternguard can use their ignore cover rounds and glance it to death. 10 sternies coming out of a pod have a not unreasonable chance of killing it, moving to statistically likely if they get prescienced.
WWP wraithguard have already been mentioned, as has perfect timing. Dark reapers ignore cover and get re-rolls to hit against bikes & skimmers that went flat out or turboboosted while come with Str 5 AP3 guns with 30" range IIRC. Sounds like a hard counter to bikers to me, and that's before you buy them their Str 8 AP3 option.
Can't you also get a torrent high strength flamer on one of their skimmers that can come in squadrons? Doesn't the farseer have a 50/50 chance to roll that apoc blast, posioned 2+ ap3 ignores cover haywire power? Don't tell me you're not taking at least 1 farseer.
Don't guard have ignore cover orders and autocannons/lascnnons? Doesn't the eradicator have ignores cover on it's str 6 large blast for ~120 points and can be squadroned with FA 14 (making it immune to plasmafire from the black knights?)?
Can't you buy Str 6 AP3 phosphor blasters for mechanicum that come with ignores cover? Can't the skitari get omnispexes and a billion haywire or plasma shots on their troops?
A screamers slashing attacks are d3 str 4 ap- ignores cover, a full squad should glance it to death on an average roll in 1 pass. Vector strikes from daemon princes are also an option, though a poor one. Exessive CC options abound in a daemon army.
Chaos has blastmasters, sonic blasters, heldrakes and CC options. Perhaps there will be a reason to take a slaneeshi biker lord and his noise marine cohorts now? Granted the 'Drake won't do anything for you until T2 when it's too late unless the ravenwing player reserved his toys for some odd reason.
Dominions have been mentioned for sisters, though I suspect that they're going to be fighting a losing battle there, but since virtually all sisters list will have a pair of dom squads, at least you cen be assured some of those bikers and the 'shroud are going to have a bad day.
Necrons are pretty boned, but hey, screw those guys, they're OP enough as it is and their focus isn't on actually killing anything. Guess they'll just have to go back to running CronAir instead or getting their lychstar into combat where their str 5 ap3 swords can go to work wounding on 4's with no saves.
Tau have markerlights and the buffcommander, they have never needed help against cover campers.
I'm sure I've missed someone, but there are answers in most codices. If you can protect them long enough to do their job is another question, as is how much you want to compromise the theme of your army to do so.
Don't get me wrong, this is silly strong, but much like the reaction to skyhammer, it's not the unbeatable terror that cannot be defeated.
Biggest reason there's not so much mass hysteria with the marine books because the ones that were freaking out the most were marine players. But now that they have a top tier book the complaints are quiet, just a bit of Imperial bias is going on here which is nothing new.
The new formation is undoubtably strong, but it's important to keep in mind its weaknesses:
1. It is expensive. 350 points minimum is hardly chump change. A significant portion of the army will have to be devoted to it.
2. It is limited. The Shrouded bonus is only conferred within a limited area. This means that the Darkshround will have to stay close and follow any unit of units around, potentially getting it into trouble.
3. It is vulnerable. The Darkshroud itself is not very durable even in the new codex. Kill it, and the buff disappears. There are plenty of ways to ignore cover in the game, not least counter-charging the unit.
Dark Angels fly under people's radar, so they haven't attracted as much hate yet. The Internet and this forum is probably burned out from being outraged so hard for so many months straight. Maybe then we can finally get back to playing the game...
To me this is funny, I just picked up a land speeder Vengeance. I all ready had 3 land speeders that have collected dust for the last 3 years that are now field able. Since I have a massive Dark Angel's army all ready. Ya my 32 DW terms are back on the shelf but those bikes ya if you do not think for 5 secs I'm not about to roll out those. 15 bike's and 2 attack bikes, Hell GW just might have got more of my Money from the another 15 I might buy for the next 2 years of trolling I will be doing with them.
And here I was working on fielding a sisters army using the Libby SM formation thinking you know that pretty dam cool.
What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.
yeah sure i'm gonna clump all my bikes together right under a darkshroud whose special effect has a 6" range from the hull, when your 10" blast only has maybe a 4" range from the hull.
also, that not open topped skimmer has 3 ablative speeders in front of it that will probably not even all die.
there's so much wrong with your post, but i'm not going to bother addressing the rest. too long, cbf
gmaleron wrote: Biggest reason there's not so much mass hysteria with the marine books because the ones that were freaking out the most were marine players. But now that they have a top tier book the complaints are quiet, just a bit of Imperial bias is going on here which is nothing new.
God, this stuff from Xenos and Traitor players is getting incredibly old.
There was loads of hysteria about the SM codex, yet we get the victimisation that just completely ignores that from these people. There was extreme amounts of whine about the AdMech free points, and yet it's all "NO ONE SPOKE UP AGAINST THE INJUSTICE!"
There is so much of the "IMPERIAL BIAS ON THIS FORUM!"-shouting that even that can be seen as hysteria against imperial armies.
There is the exact same amount of hysteria going on for any overpowered codex coming out no matter what faction it belongs to, yet these people try to be the god damned Jean D'Arc of their generation by proclaiming that there is nothing here.
It's insane. THE POSTS OF WHINE ARE RIGHT THERE and yet you just pretend like it's not, because it refutes the point you want to make about imperial bias.
I mean gak, you even quoted one of the posts not long ago, gmaleron.
What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.
Hell, IIRC, the whirlwind has Ordnance and ignores cover on it's str 4 shot, that's a 30% chance to get a glance. The TFC has ignores cover on it's Str 5, which means you can pen on a 6 and you get 4 shots, and if it's open topped, you can still explode on 6's.
Sternguard can use their ignore cover rounds and glance it to death. 10 sternies coming out of a pod have a not unreasonable chance of killing it, moving to statistically likely if they get prescienced.
WWP wraithguard have already been mentioned, as has perfect timing. Dark reapers ignore cover and get re-rolls to hit against bikes & skimmers that went flat out or turboboosted while come with Str 5 AP3 guns with 30" range IIRC. Sounds like a hard counter to bikers to me, and that's before you buy them their Str 8 AP3 option.
Can't you also get a torrent high strength flamer on one of their skimmers that can come in squadrons? Doesn't the farseer have a 50/50 chance to roll that apoc blast, posioned 2+ ap3 ignores cover haywire power? Don't tell me you're not taking at least 1 farseer.
Don't guard have ignore cover orders and autocannons/lascnnons? Doesn't the eradicator have ignores cover on it's str 6 large blast for ~120 points and can be squadroned with FA 14 (making it immune to plasmafire from the black knights?)?
Can't you buy Str 6 AP3 phosphor blasters for mechanicum that come with ignores cover? Can't the skitari get omnispexes and a billion haywire or plasma shots on their troops?
A screamers slashing attacks are d3 str 4 ap- ignores cover, a full squad should glance it to death on an average roll in 1 pass. Vector strikes from daemon princes are also an option, though a poor one. Exessive CC options abound in a daemon army.
Chaos has blastmasters, sonic blasters, heldrakes and CC options. Perhaps there will be a reason to take a slaneeshi biker lord and his noise marine cohorts now? Granted the 'Drake won't do anything for you until T2 when it's too late unless the ravenwing player reserved his toys for some odd reason.
Dominions have been mentioned for sisters, though I suspect that they're going to be fighting a losing battle there, but since virtually all sisters list will have a pair of dom squads, at least you cen be assured some of those bikers and the 'shroud are going to have a bad day.
Necrons are pretty boned, but hey, screw those guys, they're OP enough as it is and their focus isn't on actually killing anything. Guess they'll just have to go back to running CronAir instead or getting their lychstar into combat where their str 5 ap3 swords can go to work wounding on 4's with no saves.
Tau have markerlights and the buffcommander, they have never needed help against cover campers.
I'm sure I've missed someone, but there are answers in most codices. If you can protect them long enough to do their job is another question, as is how much you want to compromise the theme of your army to do so.
Don't get me wrong, this is silly strong, but much like the reaction to skyhammer, it's not the unbeatable terror that cannot be defeated.
I notice you don't offer a solution for Dark Eldar...
SirDonlad wrote: If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.
special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.
The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.
Thairne wrote: ... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions
want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.
it's around 400 bolter shots, jsyk
This is true.
But a cover save is no invul save. Ignore Cover does bad things to an AV10 vehicle.
How do you deal with a flying DP of Nurgle that keeps fluttering around summoning demons and casting powers?
You only hit that guy on a 6, wound on a 5 with bolters, and has a 2+ cover.
I don't do the math, but that is about as bad. I don't see everyone screaming how impossible he is to take down.
Any type of Ignore Cover weaponry will feth a Darkshroud up, it has virtually no defense otherwise.
And it's not like the meta is centered around high volume fire of mid str weaponry anyway.
I apoligise that my earlier calculation had an error, but the Darkshroud requires 972 bolter shots at BS 4 directed at it to kill it. Each shot has a probability of success of (2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6)*(1/6)=(1/324) chance of stripping a single hull point. The Darkshroud has 3 HP so: 3*324 = 972 shots.
A flying Daemon Prince requires a mere 216 bolter shots at BS 4 to kill it. Each shot has a probability of success of (1/6)*(1/3)*(1/6) = (1/54). The Daemon prince has 4 wounds so: 4*54 = 216 shots.
For the amount of firepower required to kill one Darkshroud, you could kill 4 Daemon Princes. Next time, I suggest that you do the math.
@Drasius You forgot to include a solution for the poor Orks.
vipoid wrote: I agree - working out the math for bolters to kill an AV10 vehicle is silly.
Shall we try a more reasonable weapon? Say, a Dark Lance.
Chance to explode:
2/3 x 2/3 x 1/36 x 1/6 = 1/468
Chance to wreck:
2/3 x 5/6 x 1/36 x 1/3 = 1/162
Combined: ~1/120
See? This why you need to stick to sensible equations - none of this 900+ bolter shots nonsense.
Now we can see that it takes a mere 120 Dark Lance shots to destroy the Darkshroud.
So, with just 40 Ravagers (a mere 5000pts) you can kill it in a single turn.
I don't know why people have to make such a fuss all the time.
Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.
Purifier wrote: the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.
Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.
Purifier wrote: the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.
Oh, bloody ingenious. I wish I'd thought of that.
I bow to your heavenly wisdom.
So, oh Divine One, which Ignores Cover weapon in the Dark Eldar book should I use against the Darkshroud?
TheNewBlood wrote: The new formation is undoubtably strong, but it's important to keep in mind its weaknesses:
1. It is expensive. 350 points minimum is hardly chump change. A significant portion of the army will have to be devoted to it.
2. It is limited. The Shrouded bonus is only conferred within a limited area. This means that the Darkshround will have to stay close and follow any unit of units around, potentially getting it into trouble.
3. It is vulnerable. The Darkshroud itself is not very durable even in the new codex. Kill it, and the buff disappears. There are plenty of ways to ignore cover in the game, not least counter-charging the unit.
Dark Angels fly under people's radar, so they haven't attracted as much hate yet. The Internet and this forum is probably burned out from being outraged so hard for so many months straight. Maybe then we can finally get back to playing the game...
a decent build out is actually around 300pts (base darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/Typhoon, 1 LS with HB/AC)
It is indeed limited, but the RW can still add a regular darkshroud not in this formation to help elsewhere.
I don't see a lot of ignore cover in my group, but that may change now.
I left the competitive scene in 7th edition so excuse me if I'm wrong on this BUT isn't the competitive environment/meta pretty much shaped after bikes/skimmers/beasts? Last I heard, 1-2 Sicarians were pretty much the mainstay for slaughtering skimmers (although now that the MotF is gone they are pretty limited unless an FAQ comes). I don't see how you realistically expect a skimmer that's pretty much forced out in the open and into the front in order to give its benefits to survive for long, especially not when you can expect to lose over half your squadron in 1 salvo from 1 of those things and I've often seen them used in pairs.
Shhh. Let the sky be falling.
Noone ever has Ignore Cover or a unit capable of assault.
It is not like anyone ever has played against this yet.
There IS a counter. Unlike to, say, Eldar Scatterbikes. Or Necron 4+ reanimation.
Maybe Dark Eldar are screwed, I don't know.
But what I know is, that when I field this thing, that effing Sonic Dreadnought will murder it in 2 turns, followed by 2 Heldrakes and a Squad of Noise Marines.
That is what I usually face, and if CSM, probably the weakest codex in the entire game currently, can EASILY deal with it...
Well.
yeah sure i'm gonna clump all my bikes together right under a darkshroud whose special effect has a 6" range from the hull, when your 10" blast only has maybe a 4" range from the hull.
also, that not open topped skimmer has 3 ablative speeders in front of it that will probably not even all die.
there's so much wrong with your post, but i'm not going to bother addressing the rest. too long, cbf
I'm fairly sure I can target your bikers and still hit the darkshroud, 'cause if you've got enough bikes for me to actually care about a 2+ re-roll ruining my day, then you're going to struggle to space them out sufficiently. Even if I just kill the bikers and not the darkshroud, I've still removed your offensive ability from the table. Keep your gakky +1 cover speeder, I'll just sit over here with my Str 10 AP2 ignores cover apoc blast and proceed to ruin the rest of your army.If you only have a handful of bikers, then I'll be ignoring them in favour of something else more damaging, so their 2+ re-roll doesn't actually matter.
I notice you don't offer a solution for Dark Eldar...
Fairly sure I mentioned WWP wraithguard. That requires a DE taxi at least...?
Yep, DE are kinda boned, but then, you've often been relegated to an ally army halfway through your codex, so it's not exactly a shock. Perhaps grots in raiders are a solution combined with corpsethief claw?
@Drasius You forgot to include a solution for the poor Orks.
Hmmm... Greentide and a VSG? You should have enough cheap, choppy bodies to convince your opponent that the idea of paying 40 ppm for a squad that gets its job done within easy charge range (Plasma talons are still 18" range, 9" for rapidfire, right?) isn't the best plan?
You realise only one model from each unit has to be within 6" right? Range of effect is 6", range of blast is 5" (from centre)
I could have 60+ bikers gain stealth from one darkshroud.
And you think a 360pt squad of 24" range tanks that only have ignores cover til one gets shot at (so never if i get first turn) is the appropriate response?
Even IF you could tailor your list, it's still a gak unit.
Yep, DE are kinda boned, but then, you've often been relegated to an ally army halfway through your codex, so it's not exactly a shock.
That's true, but it's not exactly pleasant to see GW pour yet more gasoline on that particular fire with every release.
Drasius wrote: Perhaps grots in raiders are a solution combined with corpsethief claw?
I don't think CTC is the answer. When your opponent's models can all move 12" (plus Flat Out or Turbo Boost), and your 600+pt unit is stuck moving 6", I just don't see how you'd ever catch anything.
Grots might help, but I doubt they'll do much when the DA player can just ignore everything else in your army.
It seems like you'll need to specifically tailor against DA (e.g. running 3 Grotesqueries) if you want to stand a chance.
A time when a Psy-Riflemen dread was considered the epitome of high strROF, when Fliers were Skimmers, when assault was an assured 6'' and apocalypse stayed in apocalypse.
Remember when a Tyranofexes and Dreadknights were the most survivable things in the game by far, the only 2+ re-rollable came from a Fortuned Shadowfield and oh, everybody used either Force Org or had it modified via Special Characters (which are also now, sadly, gone).
I miss that. How can my Dark Eldar possibly put up a fair fight against this stuff? None of our vehicles can survive the TL Plasma Guns (They'll also pull a number on our Talos, so no CTC), none of our units can survive the Str 5 charge, none of our units can piece the 2++ Re-rollable cover save and none of our units have Skyfire or the Rate of Fire to threaten his Fliers.
Oh right, it's the same case for Skyhammer, Decurion and Warhost as well (Skitarri seem fine honestly). As other people have said, Warhamer is now split directly into Pre-Eldar and Post-Eldar codexes, and those of us who play Pre-Eldar simply have no motivation to care about things we have no power to even give a fair fight.
because elves are still grossly overpowered. You're only overpowered if you take that 1 formation, and that specific units. elves are unbeatable regardless of what they take. also, they've been overpowered 7 editions straight, whereas, this is the first time in 7 editions DA has been reasonable.
clamclaw wrote: Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.
With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.
Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.
There is loads of huffing and puffing over it. If you're avoiding the threads on it, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The free vehicles and the formation where everything gets obsec is a point of major rage.
.
the free transports are nifty but not terriably bad. and the obsec is of minimal value as the only thing that'd not have tObsec if you took a CAD instead is a assault squad or devestator squad. (ok I suppose devestator centurions being obsec could be annoying but it's hardly game breaking)
Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.
Purifier wrote: the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.
Oh, bloody ingenious. I wish I'd thought of that.
I bow to your heavenly wisdom.
So, oh Divine One, which Ignores Cover weapon in the Dark Eldar book should I use against the Darkshroud?
Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher. I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.
Or - as xenos players are so happy to tell imperials - just ally something. You can ally with the eldar, right?
My IG army has no cover ignoring and no str4.But to be honest, just being +2 cover, isn't much when DA kill count per turn is much lower then other good armies.
How does a DE player get in to range of a biker army to do charge, there would have to be nothing but immpassible terrain and objectives in a tight bottleneck with 2 huge LoS blocking impassibles on each side?
God, this stuff from Xenos and Traitor players is getting incredibly old.
And now you know how every Tau and Eldar a Necron player up to this point feels. No need to get so worked up about it or get upset over it, I was just pointing out the fact that there has been some Imperial bias for some time towards certain units or even entire armies of particular xenos races. You think we enjoyed hearing over and over again how OP or cheesy our armies were when for the most part they were complete exaggerations and over-the-top claims? How every tactical point you tried to point out was constantly argued against despite how clear or good have a strategy it actually was? Get used to it man you guys are in the same boat as we are now, welcome to the club.
Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher.
It might surprise you to learn that those are far from common in the DE book.
Also, that basically guarantees that said unit will be sacrificed (as it will be unable to hide in combat).
Furthermore, I notice that you don't provide a single option for taking out the Darkshroud at range. I ask again, what weapon should I use if I want/need to kill it at range?
Purifier wrote: I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.
lol
Says the one who continues to make snide, insulting, condescending and dismissive responses, rather than admit there's a problem with the game.
Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...
I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.
Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...
Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...
Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...
I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.
Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...
Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...
Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.
And this is why the Lottery is still in business...
Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher.
It might surprise you to learn that those are far from common in the DE book.
Also, that basically guarantees that said unit will be sacrificed (as it will be unable to hide in combat).
Furthermore, I notice that you don't provide a single option for taking out the Darkshroud at range. I ask again, what weapon should I use if I want/need to kill it at range?
Purifier wrote: I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.
lol
Says the one who continues to make snide, insulting, condescending and dismissive responses, rather than admit there's a problem with the game.
Or - as xenos players are so happy to tell imperials - just ally something. You can ally with the eldar, right?
Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that.
Tell you what, how about we continue this conversation when you're not being weighed down by that massive chip on your shoulder?
1) I don't know why you think you need to have a long range answer to every unit. I get that you want to sit back and shoot at everything, but that doesn't mean that you have no answers to the threat.
2) Yes, sometimes you will sacrifice units. That's one of the tactics of this game. You don't like when your units die and you want to be able to shoot everything from a safe distance. I get that, but it doesn't make the game broken that you have to do that.
3) Read your replies again, and see if they aren't being incredibly snide. Try to write a whole post without using irony. You haven't managed yet. I'm not being dismissive. I'm countering your points. I'm not being snide, I'm telling you that everything you're saying is exaggerated, I'm not being condescending, I'm responding to your condescending posts and insulting... well, I did mention that the way you write your posts makes you look like a douchebag, so I guess I can accept that one.
4) once? ONCE? It's been the reply every single time I've said that I can't handle something with my army. "I don't think Skitarii are all that hot." But yeah, they have this and that formation! Yeah, if you ally them. Oh and they can get drop podded in. Yeah, if you ally them. EVERY SINGLE POST about how my army is ridiculous is about it being allied. And I don't even have a chip about it. I think it's a fair critique.
Yes, it's a powerful army when allied, and nothing is stopping me from doing that, so it's a powerful army. But why is it suddenly forgotten when it comes to the xenos side that you can ally?
1) I don't know why you think you need to have a long range answer to every unit. I get that you want to sit back and shoot at everything, but that doesn't mean that you have no answers to the threat.
I guess I must just be a bad person for wanting my anti-tank weapons to kill a tank. Obviously this is expecting too much of them.
2) Yes, sometimes you will sacrifice units. That's one of the tactics of this game. You don't like when your units die and you want to be able to shoot everything from a safe distance. I get that, but it doesn't make the game broken that you have to do that.
I still don't know why you think it's reasonable for an 80pt vehicle to have effective immunity to every ranged weapon in the DE book.
3) Read your replies again, and see if they aren't being incredibly snide. Try to write a whole post without using irony.
I thought I was using sarcasm rather than irony, but whatever. Put simply, your posts don't exactly entice me to write a non-sarcastic response.
Purifier wrote: I'm not being dismissive. I'm countering your points.
No, you're hand-waving them. Apparently you're unaware of the difference.
Purifier wrote: I'm not being snide, I'm telling you that everything you're saying is exaggerated,
You most certainly are being snide.
You also have yet to provide even a shred of evidence that I've exaggerated anything.
Purifier wrote: I'm not being condescending, I'm responding to your condescending posts and insulting... well, I did mention that the way you write your posts makes you look like a douchebag, so I guess I can accept that one.
I feel I should point out that your posts became snide and insulting before mine did. Possibly they weren't intentionally snide and insulting (douchebag comment not withstanding), but that's certainly how they came across.
I started with a light-hearted, if sarcastic, post - which you then seemed to take great offence at.
4) once? ONCE? It's been the reply every single time I've said that I can't handle something with my army.
I think you're missing the point (or intentionally avoiding it). Please quote where *I* gave that reply to you.
Purifier wrote: "I don't think Skitarii are all that hot." But yeah, they have this and that formation! Yeah, if you ally them. Oh and they can get drop podded in. Yeah, if you ally them. EVERY SINGLE POST about how my army is ridiculous is about it being allied. And I don't even have a chip about it. I think it's a fair critique.
Yes, it's a powerful army when allied, and nothing is stopping me from doing that, so it's a powerful army. But why is it suddenly forgotten when it comes to the xenos side that you can ally?
You need to get rid of your ridiculous bias.
I see you've now moved on to blatant hypocrisy.
You tell me to get over my bias, whilst at the same time painting all xeno players with the same brush.
I have never told you to use allies to solve a problem.
I have never told *anyone* to use allies to solve a problem, because I think that's an awful idea and that each book should stand up on their own.
So either you have me confused with someone else, or you're projecting so hard that we could point you at a wall and use you to show off Powerpoint presentations.
This is the comment you gave a snide and facetious comment to:
Purifier wrote: Why are you trying to kill either of those with bolters?
It's not what bolters are for, and both are exercises in futility.
The prince is gonna need something with skyfire to take it down, and the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.
I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.
You say you don't think the books should work that way and every army should be able to stand up on its own, and that makes my post hypocrisy?
I was saying that I thought it was fair judgement on my book. So if I say the same is fair against your book, that's not hypocrisy. That's staying true to the same sentiment across mine and your books.
The fact that you haven't said it and your opinion is different has nothing to do with it. I can't be a hypocrite because my opinion differs from you. That's not what hypocrisy is.
you said "Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that. "
You project that onto me, something that you completely made up, and now I'm the one projecting?
I haven't said that every xeno says that. I've said that xenos players have said that (and they have, a lot.) You're the one taking it to heart like I was talking about you specifically.
The fact is that it's something Xenos have said a lot, and I said that it also applies here. I feel that the comment from xenos (that aren't you) is valid and I think it is still valid here.
I feel like you're projecting and then accusing me of projecting in the same breath, same as what you do with every other thing you've claimed of me:
hypocrisy
snide
insulting
condescending
dismissive
Every one of these things can be seen in your texts. It's like you try to nip it in the bud because if you say it first then I can't counter with it.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...
I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.
Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...
Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...
Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.
Sure, but you also have as much chance of the same Maulerfiend surviving two Strength D wounds out in the open. The point of math hammer is to compare what will probably happen in any given game, not what might happen once if you're really unlucky.
Still, it IS strong.
It is however far from invicible like a 2++ rerollable screamer star.
The simple fact that it IS a cover save that can be COMPLETELY negated makes this far more manageable.
If Dark Eldar have actually NO way to do that, it's sad. I wouldn't even count assault as a good way to counter it.. not with overwatching Land Speeders at BS2 or BS4 nearby.
I think this is getting pretty much blown out of proportion by the lack of Ignore Cover in the DE dex. Most other codices should be able to manage it.
Purifier wrote: This is the comment you gave a snide and facetious comment to:
Purifier wrote: Why are you trying to kill either of those with bolters?
It's not what bolters are for, and both are exercises in futility.
The prince is gonna need something with skyfire to take it down, and the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.
I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.
You say you don't think the books should work that way and every army should be able to stand up on its own, and that makes my post hypocrisy?
I was saying that I thought it was fair judgement on my book. So if I say the same is fair against your book, that's not hypocrisy. That's staying true to the same sentiment across mine and your books.
The fact that you haven't said it and your opinion is different has nothing to do with it. I can't be a hypocrite because my opinion differs from you. That's not what hypocrisy is.
you said "Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that. "
You project that onto me, something that you completely made up, and now I'm the one projecting?
I haven't said that every xeno says that. I've said that xenos players have said that (and they have, a lot.) You're the one taking it to heart like I was talking about you specifically.
The fact is that it's something Xenos have said a lot, and I said that it also applies here. I feel that the comment from xenos (that aren't you) is valid and I think it is still valid here.
I feel like you're projecting and then accusing me of projecting in the same breath, same as what you do with every other thing you've claimed of me:
hypocrisy
snide
insulting
condescending
dismissive
Every one of these things can be seen in your texts. It's like you try to nip it in the bud because if you say it first then I can't counter with it.
This looks like way more work and thought than I would ever put into an internet reply. You two disagree, thats fine. Take a break from the keyboard and don't worry about it.
life goes on.
Regarding the Mathhammer, yeah it can be pretty wonky but it's the next best thing to being able to actually play-test a unit. It's giving you the statistical average of what might happen, not the results of what will. Like right now I am not able to play a game, though running some numbers on 40K calculators can at least give me a general idea. Plus it satiates my desire to play until I can fit a game in.
I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.
I was actually talking about your post after that.
My response to the post you quoted was intended as light-hearted, but also to prove a point - that the darkshroud is incredibly resilient even when you're using a more sensible weapon.
I apologise if that post came across as insulting, snide or condescending, because that really wasn't my intent.
My response to the post you quoted was intended as light-hearted, but also to prove a point.
You can't do both of those. One makes the other look serious.
But let's just agree to disagree and drop it. We've already been told off once.
So here's me attempting to address the worry you have, but in a civil way with absolutely nothing snide intended.
Yes, your codex isn't geared to take it out. You literally have no weapon made to shoot the vehicle in question. You should never use a single shot attempting to shoot it, because even just letting it roam around unhindered and attempting to play around it would make more sense.
You do however have some units able to take it out using melee. I'm not at all heavily invested into the DE book, so I'm not gonna be able to pull out any tactical genius tricks, but I would probably start by bringing a unit or two of standard geared Hellions.
They have good mobility, aren't expensive and can knock the vehicle out with their standard gear. They're a pretty optimal sacrifice unit for the mission and if they are successful in it, then they will have been more than worth their points in both the unit they took out and the fire they pulled from other targets.
So here's me attempting to address the worry you have, but in a civil way with absolutely nothing snide intended.
Yes, your codex isn't geared to take it out. You literally have no weapon made to shoot the vehicle in question. You should never use a single shot attempting to shoot it, because even just letting it roam around unhindered and attempting to play around it would make more sense.
You do however have some units able to take it out using melee. I'm not at all heavily invested into the DE book, so I'm not gonna be able to pull out any tactical genius tricks, but I would probably start by bringing a unit or two of standard geared Hellions.
They have good mobility, aren't expensive and can knock the vehicle out with their standard gear. They're a pretty optimal sacrifice unit for the mission and if they are successful in it, then they will have been more than worth their points in both the unit they took out and the fire they pulled from other targets.
I don't think Hellions would work. With 1 attack each at S4, you're looking at an average of 27 attacks to down the Darkshroud. Including the attack from charging, you'd still need 14+ Hellions. That's already 180pts - more than twice what the Darkshroud costs. Plus, that's assuming the squad makes it to the Darkshroud at full strength. With T3, 5+ saves and no jink or other defences, that seems really unlikely.
I appreciate the suggestion, but I really can't see Hellions being a viable solution.
Reavers with Cluster Caltrops might be worth considering though - with 1-per-3 having d6 Rending HoW hits, and the others having S4 HoW hits.
I don't think Hellions would work. With 1 attack each at S4, you're looking at an average of 27 attacks to down the Darkshroud. Including the attack from charging, you'd still need 14+ Hellions. That's already 180pts - more than twice what the Darkshroud costs. Plus, that's assuming the squad makes it to the Darkshroud at full strength. With T3, 5+ saves and no jink or other defences, that seems really unlikely.
I appreciate the suggestion, but I really can't see Hellions being a viable solution.
Reavers with Cluster Caltrops might be worth considering though - with 1-per-3 having d6 Rending HoW hits, and the others having S4 HoW hits.
I suppose you're right. If you bring Hellions anyway (for whatever mission you had in mind for them) and they happen to roll +1 to STR for their dope, then they would definitely easily take it out, but without that... yeah, they might have a hard time making their points back.
Lets just get this straight. The Eldar book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it. The SM book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it.
Whether you choose to ignore some of those complaints or not, they were there. Fact.
There is no community Imperial bias. There is just as much outrage for both. Trying to say otherwise is just plain false and simply just ignoring all the threads complaining about the SM dex and formations.
Furthermore starting a thread AS SOON AS the DA rumours are leaked asking why there is no outrage is just absolutely ridiculous. People need time to actually hear about it before they can decide whether they believe it OP or not.
That is the point Purifier was trying to make.
In my defense, I mathhammered the Darkshroud using bolters in response to a incorrect claim that it could easily be glanced to death by infantry.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...
I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.
Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...
Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...
Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.
Yea. . . no.
Mathematics provides us with a statistical average, meaning what is most likely to happen and statistical outliers, such as your examples, are rare. I play games regularly and can tell you the number of "statistically probable" roles exceeds the number of "statistically improbable". People build strategy around what is statistically probable to happen, for example I expect my warboss to roll at least one 4 when he swings his klaw. If you want to ignore probability then have fun shooting darkshrouds with your infantry weapons, tell us how it went.
You provided two examples, one of them several years old to have come from 5th. Surely we can do better than that.
There is a small subset of people at my FLGS that don't believe on Mathhammer. Their lists... amuse me. They are also a huge percentage of my wins because BA can't beat real lists.
Sorry if it has been answer before, I haven't read all comments, only the OP.
There is no outrage because of 3 main reason I think:
1-DA are no as popular/played as other faction such as SM or Eldar.
2-Ravenwing is not as popular as Deathwing or Greenwing imo.
3-The rule are far from outraging. 2+ rerollable Jink keep you alive, but completly negate your damage output. Yes yes I know you have 1 turn of Jink at normal BS, but that is only if you turbo-boost the turn prior, meaning you didn't shot that turn, which doesn't give that much of an edge. The rule seem written in order to make the Ravenwing a very 'chargy' army (First turn scout + turbo boost/Jink, dodge most of retaliation, turn 2 shoot at full BS then charge), but lack the power in close combat to make them overpower. On top of that, I find the detachment really restrictive.
That's my 2cent. I'm very happy with the codex, because it seem like I have so many things to try, and I'm excited to get my book this weekend
Makumba wrote: No one plays BAs, unless he is a masochist or plays BAs in the form of a formation of drop pods full of ad mecha grav dudes.
Feth those heretical mecha grav mechanicus guys! Those are OUR drop pods! Seriously, if I were partnered with someone playing a BA taxi list, I'd assault my own teammate out of bitterness.
Not loving to be "that guy", but unlike imperial armies, we do NOT have 20 BB armies we can pick and choose from to fit our needs, especially not thematically similar armies like the "50 shades of astrades" has.
Allying for xenos is just not that viable as it is for imperial. Choas got a few, so does eldar, but Tau? Orcs? NIDS?
Had I had the option to ally in practically the same army tuned to fit my every need, I'd take it. But there are only two tau, who are nigh-identical. I do not have a shopping list I'd units and abilities to pick from.
Allying isn't feasible for those of us not willing to shell out $$, either. That's a hollow, hollow argument. I bet I can make a mono-Eldar force that beats 85% of all possible IoM ally combos anyway. Allies are not a crutch for codex efficacy.
Martel732 wrote: Allying isn't feasible for those of us not willing to shell out $$, either. That's a hollow, hollow argument. I bet I can make a mono-Eldar force that beats 85% of all possible IoM ally combos anyway.
Martel732 wrote: Allying isn't feasible for those of us not willing to shell out $$, either. That's a hollow, hollow argument. I bet I can make a mono-Eldar force that beats 85% of all possible IoM ally combos anyway.
How about a mono-Dark Eldar army?
That's a lot harder. DE and down in the hole with the BA and Orks. Once again, I don't have C:IoM, I have C:BA.
BoomWolf wrote: Let's not pretend PDF does not exist and that red marines can be played as any chapter with ease, shall we?
Other than the fact that I don't own centurions, TFCs, grav-cannon devs, non-Furioso dreads, skytalons, SM characters, Stalkers, or Hunters or any other equipment BA have never been allowed to use. And I'd have a bunch of worthless SG and DC models. Maybe we have different concepts of "ease".
BoomWolf wrote: Let's not pretend PDF does not exist and that red marines can be played as any chapter with ease, shall we?
Other than the fact that I don't own centurions, TFCs, grav-cannon devs, non-Furioso dreads, skytalons, SM characters, Stalkers, or Hunters or any other equipment BA have never been allowed to use. And I'd have a bunch of worthless SG and DC models. Maybe we have different concepts of "ease".
Exalt. Its as if people think we would collect SM non-BA models just for the hell of it.
At this point, maybe we should. But I'm not putting that kind of $$ into this game.
If the BA codex weren't a steaming pile of gak, I'd actually be MORE encouraged to buy things like terrain and gun emplacements. And maybe a couple of allied units. But GW doesn't understand this. So I guess I'm defacto getting off their train.
I thought it was obvious... Why people aren't complaining about SMs. Because tthe vast majority of GW40k players, play SMs. Eldar can't have 100% win rate because GW consumers play SMs, so when Eldar came out, rant and rave they are too good. When SMs come out and get free stuff, its K cuz Speec Mureens
GoliothOnline wrote: I thought it was obvious... Why people aren't complaining about SMs. Because tthe vast majority of GW40k players, play SMs. Eldar can't have 100% win rate because GW consumers play SMs, so when Eldar came out, rant and rave they are too good. When SMs come out and get free stuff, its K cuz Speec Mureens
No, it's not at all. The game didn't need the Skyhammer force. But, without it, marines are like a turkey shoot for Eldar. Because Eldar OP. Not sure how skyhammer helps vs Necrons, though.
Poly Ranger wrote: Lets just get this straight. The Eldar book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it. The SM book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it.
Whether you choose to ignore some of those complaints or not, they were there. Fact.
There is no community Imperial bias. There is just as much outrage for both. Trying to say otherwise is just plain false and simply just ignoring all the threads complaining about the SM dex and formations.
Furthermore starting a thread AS SOON AS the DA rumours are leaked asking why there is no outrage is just absolutely ridiculous. People need time to actually hear about it before they can decide whether they believe it OP or not.
That is the point Purifier was trying to make.
Oh - and 3 of my 4 armies are non imperial.
You are exactly right. And here's another one regurgitating the same claim.
GoliothOnline wrote: I thought it was obvious... Why people aren't complaining about SMs. Because tthe vast majority of GW40k players, play SMs. Eldar can't have 100% win rate because GW consumers play SMs, so when Eldar came out, rant and rave they are too good. When SMs come out and get free stuff, its K cuz Speec Mureens
It never stops. I guess screaming "imperial bias!" is the new bandwagon.
TheCustomLime wrote: I think it is because the Eldar codex represented a significant paradigm shift. Up until then the meta of 40k was a bunch of bad codexes with 2-3 really good ones and one that is completely broken. Now that there have been two completely broken codices along with some good ones from the AdMech I believe people are waking up to the new paradigm of 40k where everything is cheese and laden with dozens of special rules.
I agree with your last sentence for sure. I love the fluff, i love what the game could be...but i dislike reading in the rules over and over to find special rules and dealing with cheese that does nothing to me than slow the game down into a sort of boredom. Top that with 50 bucks a pop new dex every year or 2 years and owning several armies... i have not been able to really buy models as i been buying codex and books that now are becoming worthless and i expect them to be replaced ASAP with GW current state.
From my understanding on the new Raven Wing rules... i honestly find making lots of dice rolls boring... oh you roll to hit, then you roll to wound, then you get to make a save, oh wait i failed but i get a +2 re-roll...etc boring... yawn. If a game cant get the same "effect" of a elite type jinx into the game with out making lots of random rolls to accomplish an outcome it is a poor set of written rules. I am finding historicals so much fun and refreshing and i think i will continue down historicals from now on.
TheCustomLime wrote: I think it is because the Eldar codex represented a significant paradigm shift. Up until then the meta of 40k was a bunch of bad codexes with 2-3 really good ones and one that is completely broken. Now that there have been two completely broken codices along with some good ones from the AdMech I believe people are waking up to the new paradigm of 40k where everything is cheese and laden with dozens of special rules.
I agree with your last sentence for sure. I love the fluff, i love what the game could be...but i dislike reading in the rules over and over to find special rules and dealing with cheese that does nothing to me than slow the game down into a sort of boredom. Top that with 50 bucks a pop new dex every year or 2 years and owning several armies... i have not been able to really buy models as i been buying codex and books that now are becoming worthless and i expect them to be replaced ASAP with GW current state.
From my understanding on the new Raven Wing rules... i honestly find making lots of dice rolls boring... oh you roll to hit, then you roll to wound, then you get to make a save, oh wait i failed but i get a +2 re-roll...etc boring... yawn. If a game cant get the same "effect" of a elite type jinx into the game with out making lots of random rolls to accomplish an outcome it is a poor set of written rules. I am finding historicals so much fun and refreshing and i think i will continue down historicals from now on.
I think this is a problem that may or may not be happening. I'm feeling it myself, so I'm not sure if I have a bias in seeing it everywhere, but every time a new codex drops for 40k, I feel more and more like playing Malifaux. So either it's just you and me, buddy, or GW are really actively pushing people away.
I love when players told me until now "well your dark angels can just ally in X and use Y detachment, and use all this stuff from various sources and be cometetive". While I'm at it might as well throw out the dark angels. Now that BA are in that position, I really feel for them. But really we should all just assume money and personal preference are no restriction, seeing as all imperial players can pick up 3+ new codex and a few dozen kits for their stuff. But I guess non imperial players should also be expected to shelf their armies and just pick up more imperial codex and kits to be competitive. Then they will have all their allies right? I mean DE can ally with Eldar. Nids and orks? just throw that stuff away and grab the fix all imperial ally matrix. Oh you don't want to play vanilla marines with allied mech riding in allied DP, oh well, the option is there, so don't complain.
Imperial superiority conspiracy logic
Spoiler:
There is also no imperial bias conspiracy. Imperial players don't get together at fortheemperor.topsecretforum.noxenos.alsonofilthyheretics.org and plan hate propaganda and smear campaigns. There have been xenos codex come out that didn't get an "OMFG WTF IS THIS OP CHEESE!!1!" posts fill entire pages. Tau were strong when they came out (not as strong as today's meta) and 6th eldar were strong. Both those books received complains. So did 6th SM for that matter. Necrons came out and the community (xenos and imperial players alike) all facepalmed, it was doom and gloom and fire and brimstone (it still sometimes is). Plenty of rage posts. Then 7th eldar cranked it to 11, decided it wasn't good enough, and constructed a new system that went to 12. No one, not even local WAACTFG eldar fanboys will deny the power level of the Eldar book. Yes people complained, but it was warranted. The new SM codex came out, and there were plenty of rage posts. Granted these were more geared towards the formations than anything. You cannot deny they were there. Heck, this post is a SM rage post, buried in some kind of imaginary split in the community between imperial and non imperial players. There are even a few about DA popping up. Why so few? Well the DA codex doesn't look quite as strong as SM, which doesn't touch eldar/crons. Also DA have spent a long time as the reject codex, but don't cry as loud as sisters or chaos players(mostly just kidding guys ), so they just tend not to gather as much attention.
Yes imperial players make up a good percentage. Up until late 5th, I remember SM were marketed as a good starter army: forgiving on the table, easy to learn, easy to paint. Many xenos players started with a SM force, then branched out into what they like. But comparing numbers and claim blanket generalizations really serves no purpose. Heck imperial is so under represented in my local meta, there are 2 other DA players, only about 6-8 SM players, and only about 5 or 6 making up BA/GK/SW/(that one guy who allies in sisters)/IGAM/everything else. After accounting for the players who play different imperial armies, there are about 10-14 at any given time, out of the 40+ regular locals we see. Heck we have more chaos representation than any one imperial force, and even more than most combined. And the rest is all Xenos. Jetbikes and broadsides as far as the eye can see. Orks and nids outnumber any one imperial faction. The only thing we really have underrepresented is DE (only 2 players total). I've been to multiple areas where 70-80 percent were imperial armies, and these tended to be places new stores had opened in the last few years and SM were the go to teach 'em to paint and play army. I've been to places where it has 80%+ xenos, and it was like walking into a Starbucks and ordering a normal coffee watching them neck snap at the idea of me wanting to play an imperial race. I've been to places where it was a health mix of everything, and there were no regulars who were TFG or WAAC, and everyone got along, and people remembered they were their for fun, and respected their opponents, and shook hands after their games, and it was sunshine and rainbows and a paradise on the table top . It's all area based.
On the forums, it's just who complains the loudest and hardest. These people don't represent the whole or even majority of their respective factions.
WAY TL;DR, there is not imperial vs xenos stuff, people need to stop trying to make it happen just so they can complain about it. Also there are post complaining about the new SM and DA codex (including this one), just not as many as for eldar and necrons because, lets face it, they aren't as powerful, and people are just gassed out and not shocked after those.
PandaHero wrote: Sorry if it has been answer before, I haven't read all comments, only the OP.
There is no outrage because of 3 main reason I think:
1-DA are no as popular/played as other faction such as SM or Eldar.
I like to think it's also cause DA have been in such a crappy position for so long now, that people are still in shock that DA are looking like that might actually be GOOD that and people proably figure dark angels are owed some power
PandaHero wrote: Sorry if it has been answer before, I haven't read all comments, only the OP.
There is no outrage because of 3 main reason I think:
1-DA are no as popular/played as other faction such as SM or Eldar.
I like to think it's also cause DA have been in such a crappy position for so long now, that people are still in shock that DA are looking like that might actually be GOOD that and people proably figure dark angels are owed some power
If that's the case then why was there major outrage when Tau finally got a good codex? Oh yes, IoM bias!
PandaHero wrote: Sorry if it has been answer before, I haven't read all comments, only the OP.
There is no outrage because of 3 main reason I think:
1-DA are no as popular/played as other faction such as SM or Eldar.
I like to think it's also cause DA have been in such a crappy position for so long now, that people are still in shock that DA are looking like that might actually be GOOD that and people proably figure dark angels are owed some power
If that's the case then why was there major outrage when Tau finally got a good codex? Oh yes, IoM bias!
Apparently Tau were kinda overpowered, and in a less predictable/played-out way then the current DA Codex.
Tigurius/a librarian rolling ignores cover(might even be a priority over invis against this list...). Maybe if you take a conclave and roll all the dice... Though Tigurius has a pretty strong chance of getting it. Not guaranteed, however. Though, getting invis means you'll probably pick up shriek, which might be good for the Knights....
A sicarian to shoot it down. Will depend on the table, line of sight, and a few other things. Might have to finish painting mine now if Dark Angels make a resurgence. Legacy of Mars will be good, and armoured ceramite might be a good buy, too.
A thunderfire or a group of thunder fires shooting the s5 ignores cover shot.
Smashfether doing his job in close combat against the black Knights.
Skyhammer assault marines charging it (will result in a gruesome, horrible death from the talons though...). Though,mother the grav cannons are wasted. Unless you can kill it with the flamers... To bad itc ruled that gravs still allows cover, eh? :p
Legion of the damned toting a melta, multimelta, and combi melta sergeant. With the reroll to scatter, there's a decent chance of getting where you want. Maybe plasma guns would be better in this case?
A pod of stern guards rapidfiring ignores cover rounds. Will eat the interceptor from the speeders, however, if the dark shroud is part of the formation.
Lord of war Knight Acheron, though most tournaments around here ban super heavy vehicles.
To a lesser degree, a trio of vindicators. 24" range against even all black Knights... Something will get within side armour arc and shake or stun you. Maybe in an armoured spearhead, but that is mucho points.
An auspex to negate the cover save by one, since auspex don't stack.
Can loth get divination? I forget.
Ally in all the grey knight incinerators? Or some guard auto cannons ordered to fire on their target.
The only legacy of glory that lets you ignore cover is for blasts...
Stand on the second level of a ruin without enough room to place a black knight? :p
On the bright side, if they turbo boost that still means they are not shooting you. They will next turn for a beta strike, however. After the second turn(when they actually get the save against you, unless they went first), they'll have to jink if they want that save....
Might bring transports back even more, best way to avoid the beta strike is to not got shot...
Ah yes, the typhon. Most tournaments in my area don't allow supe heavies, but it is a good answer for the mere price of 350pts.
If I'm going to be buying Guilliman anyways, might as well save up a bit more and get a typhon thrown in. You know, with the boarding shield honour guard for my counts as honour guard, since they look so much better than the ones that come with Calgar.
Melissia wrote: Only time people haven't been upset about Eldar supposedly being overpowered was back in third edition when they sucked.
Let's be fair here - the complaints about Eldar have hardly been without merit.
In 6th, amongst other things, their dedicated transport was better armed and more durable than most dedicated-tanks.
Now, in 7th, they have incredibly manoeuvrable troops that can take more heavy weapons than most other races' Heavy Support options. Several of their units are armed with weapons from Apocalypse games, and the Wraithknight got an absurd increase in durability at a negligible cost. And that's not even getting into their jump infantry being able to casually bring down any flier they brush against, or their other jump infantry being able to teleport away from enemy fire.
SGTPozy wrote: If that's the case then why was there major outrage when Tau finally got a good codex? Oh yes, IoM bias!
I give up.
It's almost as if what we write is in invisible ink.
Both of you explain what's so wrong with my postas I can't see it.
Why is it that when Tau finally got a good codex after two terrible ones they were hated on yet now that DA have one it's fine?
What could it be other than an IoM bias?
I don't have a dog in this fight but as a bystandard, let me offer that it could possibly be that they were upset by an OP codex, regardless of what faction it was.
Like the complaints against the newest Eldar and SM codicies. Complaints about OP are complaints about OP. Faction is irrelevant.
So, when they saw an army shooting their armies off the table turn 1, they were upset. The fact that they are Tau and sucked before is irrelevant.
Both of you explain what's so wrong with my postas I can't see it.
Why is it that when Tau finally got a good codex after two terrible ones they were hated on yet now that DA have one it's fine?
What could it be other than an IoM bias?
Try reading more than the title before you respond to a thread. If you just go a few posts back you will see what is wrong with your reply.
Your assumption is wrong. "now that DA have one it's fine."
1) First of all, there is screaming about the rerollable 2+
2) Compared to the rest of the OP releases (SM, Eldar, Necron and to some extent Skitarii even though that is only if it is allied with other codexes) the DA one is very tame. So if we assume that this is the new state of the game, DA have not gotten an OP codex. They've gotten one that isn't absolute trash. It's only compared to pre-Necron that this codex is considerably better.
3) Even if there was no complaining as you say (which there is) and even if the codex was OP (which it isn't) the fact is that people are all huffed out. Screaming about Eldar, Necron, SM and Ad Mech has made everyone understandably weary about the whole complaining trend.
4) and fourth, you came in and posted the EXACT SAME POST that we had JUST A FEW POSTS EARLIER been talking about how xenos players keep regurgitating the same erroneous opinion based on selective reading.
Plenty of posts in these threads that state something (or everything) in an imperial army is OP. I didn't go back far enough to check out any for mechanicus (except a rumour thread) or Skittari but I assure you that they are there. There are also many other recent threads with this in. This is just a selection.
Anyway, since there are many of you unable to find any raging/declarations of OP/complaining about any Imperial armies, I thought I'd do you all a favour, find it for you, and put it right under your nose :-). Happy reading guys!
TedNugent wrote: A) Hasn't been playtested
B) requires the use of a Ravenwing Darkshroud, which is AV10 and the cost of 16 MBs
i've been playtesting it, and the darkshroud is well worth the points! regardless of what he does to the bikes, his 3 landspeeder buddies also get 2+ rerollable jink
10 black knights, a librarian, and the support squadron is brutal as feth. sure, people could tailor a list to hurt it, but so far there's not been many lists that wouldn't get smashed by it.
I even played a nurgle daemon list that has no ranged weaponry. 2+ rerollable was useless. I'll tell you what wasn't...... overwatch!
20 plasma, 2 bolter, 3 heavy bolter, 12 assault cannon, and 6 krak missile shots. bikes hitting on 5s, speeders hitting on 3s (with a demi company)
i've never seen anything like it on overwatch. now there is no reason to stay out of talon rapid fire range. everything has 2+ rerollable jink and the most horrendous amount of overwatch if you get charged
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also,
Has anyone else noticed that, unlike our vanilla counterparts, we can actually fit 2 separate lions blade detachments in a 2000pt army?
Meaning that we can take 20(!) free transports in a 2000pt game.
), but 
), so they just tend not to gather as much attention.
. It's all area based.
