Sorry for the post if this has been discussed before but I was curious to know. I haven't seen it referenced anywhere but I was wondering. Do Grav weapons have full effect agains Gargantuan Creatures or do they operate in a way similar to poison and Snipers. It seems pretty ridiculous to me that a Hierophant for example would die like gak to literally one round of fire from Grav Centurions or Grav Katas from the Ad Mech. If this is the case then what of the following rewrites would you prefer or you can suggest your own opinion.

Grav weapons have a -2 modifier to their to wound characteristic.
Grav weapons have a -2 modifier to their Ap characteristic
Grav weapons have a -1 modifier to their to wound and Ap characteristic

Or for a very alternative take.

Grav weapons have a negative modifier based on the toughness characteristic of their target

Toughness 6-7 -1 modifier to their to wound characteristic
Toughness 8 -1 modifier to their AP and to wound characteristic
Toughness 9 -2 modifier to their AP and -2 to wound characteristic
Toughness 10 -2 modifier to their AP and -3 to wound characteristic

Is this too harsh do certain levels need to be stepped up? Feel free to comment and vote with your opinion. Also don't forget that Grav Amps are a thing.

None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

And bikes and tactical marines and devastators.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

Almost any unit that can carry a melta gun or plasma gun can also carry a grav weapon. Plus the sergeants can carry combi-grav weapons.

IMO it should be similar to snipers. Only 6s cause a wound. But that isn't an option so no vote for me.

This belongs in the "Proposed Rules" forum.

Zimko wrote:

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
You get Invulnerable saves and Feal No Pain saves, why are grav weapons a big deal these days? Only centurions can take then iirc

Almost any unit that can carry a melta gun or plasma gun can also carry a grav weapon. Plus the sergeants can carry combi-grav weapons.

IMO it should be similar to snipers. Only 6s cause a wound. But that isn't an option so no vote for me.

And, IMO, Sniper weapons should be causing Wounds on Gargantuan Creatures on a 2+ rather than the 4+ it normally is.

Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

That's fair.

I think this is in the wrong forum though. The RAW and RAI on the matter is clear. What we think the rule should be isn't what YMDC is about.

 Kanluwen wrote:
None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

I get that but my issue is that the squad of Centurions or the Grav Kataphrons there can wipe a thousand point Hierophant in one turn of shooting for a literal fraction of its cost and then go on to mess up any other GC or MC in your army and I don't even play Tyranids. I'm sorry but that's just wrong. And unlike super heavies which you can bubblewrap to protect from drop podding melta veterans keeping the grav weapons and especially the cannons away is impossible to do without charging them turn one (which you won't be able to do.)


PS
Sorry about wrong forum is there any way to move it?

You must not be familiar with the phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". It makes perfect sense that a G creature can be killed by grav pretty easily. The grav weapon amplifies the force of gravity, slamming the big stuff into the ground harder.

Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

Yeah but when that "weak point" is insanely tiny and most likely has several backup organs to replace it or regenerates at an absolutely stupid pace. (honestly how many hearts do you think a Hierophant has?) it doesn't affect something the size of a very large building as much as it would affect something the size of a small tank. Also it isn't necessarily poison imunity but more that the poison affects such a small part of the creatures massive body that it is typically inconsequential. (if its toxin imunity then how come the great unclean one can be hurt by it?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

That's not a bad idea although I feel that D3 can be too severe sometimes. Why is the idea(although it sounds stupid) of a D2 not adequate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
You must not be familiar with the phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall". It makes perfect sense that a G creature can be killed by grav pretty easily. The grav weapon amplifies the force of gravity, slamming the big stuff into the ground harder.

I get that but going into the physics of it you also have to look at the fact that constructs so incredibly big are also insanely strong and durable. For example. Look at the Dimacheron thing from FW. a creature that clearly ways many tens of tons can launch itself into the air and land with all that weight without so much as breaking stride. The sheer additional muscle strength that such a beast must have is unimaginable. At least from a more lore and scientific standpoint. Even multiplying gravity by 2 on such a creature would probably only be able to slow it down to a brisk pace and maybe prevent it from jumping.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Being immune to toxins, etc isn't the same thing as a guy with a rifle hunting out weak points and blowing them apart with precision fire.

Yeah but when that "weak point" is insanely tiny and most likely has several backup organs to replace it or regenerates at an absolutely stupid pace. (honestly how many hearts do you think a Hierophant has?) it doesn't affect something the size of a very large building as much as it would affect something the size of a small tank. Also it isn't necessarily poison imunity but more that the poison affects such a small part of the creatures massive body that it is typically inconsequential. (if its toxin imunity then how come the great unclean one can be hurt by it?)

Poisoned Weapons, for a very long time, haven't simply been "poisons" but rather poisoned/blessed weapons. They essentially are counted as one for ease of rules.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Excellent, now that we have it in Proposed Rules...

Gargantuan Creatures, previously, were relatively rare. That's not going to be the case any longer with the existence of the Wraithknight as a Gargantuan Creature and likely the next Tyranid book bringing more.

With that said, I would like to see Armourbane and/or Sniper weapons gain an additional rule. Speaking as a Skitarii player, I can say with reasonable confidence that one issue I've had dealing with MCs(such as Riptides) is that Armourbane is useless against MCs.

That just doesn't fit with the fact that it's a rifle firing a round that is putting holes through tanks. I would love to see Armourbane cause D3 Wounds rather than a single Wound against MCs or GCs.

That's not a bad idea although I feel that D3 can be too severe sometimes. Why is the idea(although it sounds stupid) of a D2 not adequate.

Likely because a D2 would be 1-3 it causes 1 Wound and 4-6 it causes 2?

I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human? sure getting swarmed by them could actually kill you and enough of them is bound to put a dent into your overall health, but alone they are worthless a mere annoyance. On top of this many of the GC's regenerate or in the case of Wraith knights simply don't feel pain and only fail when they are structurally too damaged to function.

I just noticed a mistake I made in the writing. Those rules were only supposed to apply to GC's even in the toughness one so it wouldn't matter against the MC's

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

ok thats just nitpicking you know what I mean by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fleshrott wrote:
None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

By this logic you are insinuating that a tiny grav weapon is going to affect the entire creature. I'm far from an expert but wouldn't that overload the weapon to some extent. It says it is a localized gravity change and I doubt it can be the size of a damn GC maybe part of it but not the whole thing. Even if the power of the weapon remains the same the volume of shots is way too high to justify. It really doesn't compare to anything else that SM have for heavy weapons in killing power even in comparison to a plasma cannon it is leagues ahead in terms of dammage output despite both having comparable ideal targets

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I know about the poison thing and for the most part I always just considered it to be a very caustic acid all around because regardless of imunity acid still burns stuff.

But still it is like getting bitten by a tiny mosquito for them. How damaging is being bitten by a mosquito for a human?

Pretty damn lethal, malaria deaths worldwide number in the millions each year.

ok thats just nitpicking you know what I mean by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fleshrott wrote:
None of the above, Gargantuans are bigger and would therefore fall harder, being practically immune to Snipers and Poison is one thing, being harder to kill via a logical and realistic method makes no sense.

By this logic you are insinuating that a tiny grav weapon is going to affect the entire creature. I'm far from an expert but wouldn't that overload the weapon to some extent. It says it is a localized gravity change and I doubt it can be the size of a damn GC maybe part of it but not the whole thing. Even if the power of the weapon remains the same the volume of shots is way too high to justify. It really doesn't compare to anything else that SM have for heavy weapons in killing power even in comparison to a plasma cannon it is leagues ahead in terms of dammage output despite both having comparable ideal targets

Not just one 'tiny' weapon, but multiple usually. All focusing on different portions of the body (or focusing all on the same to make that part weaker/heavier) until the beast finally falls. Plus, these ARE fictional weapons and we have no idea the true nature/working of them or just how intensive they really are or how big their area of effect actually is.

Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead. Just let me know how fun games playing with no one are. Gargantuan creatures and some superheavies but not all are brought for fun not for their efficiency. By taking things like Grav cannons or melta vets you remove the fun from the game purely for the sake of winning. So my proposition is if people can't resist pressing their I win button by themselves then GW should step in with a sledge hammer and smash the I win button so the game can be fun. Not so the game can be: oh I killed that really big thing with this one squad here and now my other 3 squads of that unit that equate to the rest of the cost of that GC can kill all your vehicles and monstrous creatures.

That is the angriest rant I have read in a long time.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead. Just let me know how fun games playing with no one are. Gargantuan creatures and some superheavies but not all are brought for fun not for their efficiency. By taking things like Grav cannons or melta vets you remove the fun from the game purely for the sake of winning. So my proposition is if people can't resist pressing their I win button by themselves then GW should step in with a sledge hammer and smash the I win button so the game can be fun. Not so the game can be: oh I killed that really big thing with this one squad here and now my other 3 squads of that unit that equate to the rest of the cost of that GC can kill all your vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Holy crap dude, calm down. Seriously. I give no craps about any of the cheese because:

1. I don't play cheese
2. My armies has very little to no cheese to begin with, nor would I use it if they did
3. I think Super heavies and Gargant Creatures are dumb in standard 40k ANYWWAY.

But Grav Guns are designed to handle heavily armored or heavy/large things. Gargants and Super Heavies fit that letter to a T. I find it more funny your mad about the weapon that only power armor armies have access too, and not the fact that those two unit types in general are far more unbalancing than the guns themselves. I find very little 'fun' in seeing a damn Wraithknight across from me, or a Imperial Knight. Grav Guns are pennies compared to those.

The funny part is that Grav weapons can't even do vehicle hunting well.

They need to roll 6's against vehicles, and if they get them the vehicle is Immobilised and loses a single HP.

I love that the response to people saying "Grav harming larger creatures effectively makes perfect sense" is answered with "Whatever, keep your OP gak and keep playing WAAC. I just wanted to make the game fun where nothing can kill something."

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Grav weapons can't even do vehicle hunting well.

They need to roll 6's against vehicles, and if they get them the vehicle is Immobilised and loses a single HP.

Theyre great against vehicles, 2 sixes and anything is wrecked essentially.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead.

Wait, you want to nerf grav-guns ability to kill Wraithknights because the GRAV-GUNS are too good? What?

Makes sense to me that grav guns would eventually be of limited effectiveness once the target gets big enough. Eventually if you want to take out the big target you need a bigger gun.

I don't like super heavies and gargantuan creatures in normal 40k so it isn't like I'm trying to support my pet unit, but if they are there I don't think they should be easily killed with a relatively small investment that is widely available to the army and has great range. Basically I'm with Yaav on this and get where he is coming from and why he'd be ticked at the simplistic dismissal of the idea that grav guns should be limited in power against gargantuan creatures.

Well, superheavies and gargantuan creatures are not "easily killed" by grav guns either.

Grav guns are some of the most devastating weapons against them, but they're not easily killed.

I mean it takes what, 81 grav shots to kill a Baneblade?

grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

I think your math is off a bit.

Lascannon - .667 hits, .556 Wounds (2/3 hit, 5/6 Wound)
3 shot Grav - 2 hits, .667 Wounds (2/3 hit, 1/3 Wound)

there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

 bullyboy wrote:
there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

Or we fix the other, awful weapons so that they can compete?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
there's a reason that grav is spammed, just look at people's lists. Maybe it's just the biker mechanic that needs to be changed....mounted weapons get relentless, those held by the occupants count as moving. That would be more reasonable.

Or we fix the other, awful weapons so that they can compete?

such as? plasma is decent (although dangerous), maybe not plasma cannons....I'd like to see two options for them, the blast and maybe Hvy 2. Meltaguns are fine, as are flamers. It's the inclusion of grav and multiple bike command sqds where it becomes obnoxious.
As i said, I like the grav mechanic, I just don't understand why the cannon gets 5 shots and the Hvy Bolter gets 3.

because the HB is a 5 point upgrade and the GravCannon is a 35 point upgrade, so lets do math. We are having a Marine shooting Guardsmen with a gravcannon and 7 marines with HBs. same point values
Grav Cannon w/ amp: 4.46 hits, 1.48 dead guardsmen
vs.
7 HBs: 14 hits, 11.6 dead guardsmen
Plus, the bolters hit from 12 inches further away.
In my opinion, each weapon has it's own place. In addition, if it only has an invuln (aka Daemons, Farseers, etc.) the grav means jack squat.
Melta: close range Anti-Tank
Plasma: Can reliably hurt MOST things
HB: cheap horde killer
Grav: good for High T, good armor save
Sorry if I went a little Off-Topic

Grav is simply a hard counter to MCs/GCs. a hard counter isn't nesscarily cheese. partiuclarly as there are things grav is less effective at. using 'nids for example, sure it shreds their big MCs, but it's not all that good against say. 'gunts or stealers. I think it's worth noting that when the grav weapon was introduced the meta was dominated by MCs such as the wraithknight, riptide and dreadknight.

No change necessary.

I believe a lot of people are being obtuse and non-receptive simply because of the Wraith Knight. He is undercosted and way to tough. But it's also clear that the OP doesn't have the Wraith Knight in mind with his suggestion, but instead as the many Tyranid GMC's in mind. All of which are overcosted, are lacking a few wounds and as far as i know have no access to invulnerable saves (Although cover saves are easy to come by).

So, with this in mind, I am sure you can understand why Grav-Weapons seem like such a horrible, unfair thing. ''I bought this massive, super cool alien monster! RAWWWW!'' Then it gets instantly popped by 2 squads of drop podding Combi-Grav Stern Guard. Hit on 3's, wound on 3's or 2's, all for less then 300pts.

I want to complain, saying things shouldn't be able to instantly disintegrate other units for a fraction of the cost. But of course, this is were 40k stands now, with every subsequent codex needing to 1-up the last leaving armies like Dark Eldar, Orks and Non-Flyrant spam Tyranids in the dust. Weapons get bigger, models get bigger, formations get flashier.

I see no reason why Grav should wound on 3's and be AP 2 while all my Splinter Weaponry in my entire army wounds on 6's, Grav should wound on 6's simply for consistency. Unless of course we want to push the Power Race even further, in which case i will hide in a corner with my Dark Lance and Splinter Pistol waiting for my update. Then you will all fear when all my Splinter Weaponry wounds on poison 2+ insta kill on 6's and Dark Lances deal D3 pens.

Then make the Tyranid Gargantuans cheaper and the Wraithknight more expensive.

I personally feel Grav should use the Toughness/AV the firer when firing Grav as opposed to save.

For example
T1-2, needs 6 to wound
T3-4 needs 5 to wound
T5-6 needs 4 to wound
T7-8 needs 3 to wound
T9-10 needs 2 to wound

Against vehicles, you add up all the facings (Front + Side and Rear) and do damage against whatever it equals.

For example, a Venom is Front (10), Side (10) Rear (10) so the math is 10 + 10 + 10 so 30 total.

Then go up in every three values so:
30-32 needs 6's to glance
33-35 needs 5 to glance 6 to pen
36-39 needs 4's to glance and 5's to pen
40-42 needs 3's to glance and 4's to pen
43< needs 2's to glance, 3's to pen.

Would make them more effective against buildings, which would surely crush inhibits once gravity comes into effect. I think I would keep AP2 though, so Grav wounds Superheavies easier, but Plasma is a much better choice against elite infantry, such as Termies and it's a toss up over what your list needs.

I think that would reflect the fluff quite nicely (and makes sense )

The main problem is grav at the moment is how many shots you can get off with it, possibly with TL and Ignore Cover.

 AUGmaniac wrote:
because the HB is a 5 point upgrade and the GravCannon is a 35 point upgrade, so lets do math. We are having a Marine shooting Guardsmen with a gravcannon and 7 marines with HBs. same point values
Grav Cannon w/ amp: 4.46 hits, 1.48 dead guardsmen
vs.
7 HBs: 14 hits, 11.6 dead guardsmen
Plus, the bolters hit from 12 inches further away.
In my opinion, each weapon has it's own place. In addition, if it only has an invuln (aka Daemons, Farseers, etc.) the grav means jack squat.
Melta: close range Anti-Tank
Plasma: Can reliably hurt MOST things
HB: cheap horde killer
Grav: good for High T, good armor save
Sorry if I went a little Off-Topic

HB is 10pt upgrade.

plus if you are going to do the math vs a guardsman, at least compare same with say a terminator or wraithguard.
As for the farseer comment, c'mon, EVERY farseer you see is on a bike...that's 3+ to wound.

grav cannon vs marine 5*.666 to hit*.666 to wound, no save = 2.22 wounds.
3 HBs vs marine 9*.666 to hit*.666 to wound, *.333 for armour save = 1.33 wounds

grav cannon vs terminator 5*.666 to hit*.8333 to wound*.8333 invuln = 2.31 wounds
3 HBs vs terminator 9*.666 to hit*.666 to wound*.166 armour save = 0.37 wounds

grav cannon vs wraithlord 5.666*.666, no save = 2.22 wounds
3 HBs vs wraithlord 9*.666*.166*.333 = 0.33 wounds

oh and wait, I forgot to add reroll failed wounds for the grav amp!

Comparing to a guardsmen is bogus because
a. they cost maybe 5pts each? Terminator, wraithguard, lords etc are x6-8+ cost of that.
b. Dev sqds also have bolters which hurt guardsmen just fine. And seriously, you're shootingthe grav at vehicles if it's a guards army.

The ROF is just too much for a weapon that makes 2+/3+ armour obsolete. I have no issue with weapons designed to take on these troops, but the damage output should be far more reasonable. The AP is fine, everything is fine...I just don't understand why it has so many shots. It's equivalent to a large blast...how many man packed weapons gets access to that? grav cannon should be ROF 3 max, gun ROF 2.

edit: when wraithguard got d weapons, everyone freaked and screamed for nerf but you just don't hear that about grav, IoM and all. when you see lists spam the same thing over and over, you know there is something wrong. Eldar scatterbikes, SM grav bike command sqds, etc.
Skyhammer dev sqd maxed out is expensive, granted, but you don't need 4 grav cannons to wreck any "target" unit you want. 2 grav cannons and a combi-grav with Ultramarines doctrine will take out a wraithknight no problem, a full 5 man terminator sqd with character (unless stormshield), full wraithguard sqd, etc. Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous.
Grav should kill big things, agreed, but it shouldn't kill large numbers of big things in one volley.

the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

BrianDavion wrote:
the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

that's not really true since the only time you will really see grav devastators is with skyhammer, and it's best to max out the sqd. Otherwise it's Centurions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the guard comparison is made to make a point. grab sucks vs lightly armored swarm armies, but is a nasty counter to heavier armored units. thus it is indeed a weakness in the weapon. and grav vs guard really is kinda crap. (as for devestrators having bolters,. your average dev squad has a single bolter. assuming the player hasn't decided to kit his sergent for Close combat)

that's not really true since the only time you will really see grav devastators is with skyhammer, and it's best to max out the sqd. Otherwise it's Centurions and bikes with grav.

" Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous. "

But necessary against a Riptide or Wraithknight. Don't make OP MCs, and you can have our grav weapons back. And before Skyhammer, I feel that BA could have done something to Gravstars if invisibility were out of the game. Invis is what made that unit, not the grav cannon itself.

Martel732 wrote:
" Take 4 grav cannons.....the numbers are outrageous. "

But necessary against a Riptide or Wraithknight. Don't make OP MCs, and you can have our grav weapons back. And before Skyhammer, I feel that BA could have done something to Gravstars if invisibility were out of the game. Invis is what made that unit, not the grav cannon itself.

do NOT need 4 gravcannons. had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP).
I have no issues with stuff hurting/killing the knight, but to do it so easily for the points, not so great.

One could argue that you compare a 49pt grav devastator with a 35pt wraithguard, but 1 shot at 12" will miss often, and no reroll wounds.

No one seems to have justified the ROF I see as yet. Even a friggin assault cannon doesn't shoot that much. I'd much rather the grav cannon be a large blast than ROF 5.

" had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP"

Anecdotal. What's the average firepower to down Mr. Wraithknight? I'll take the four gravcannons, thanks. Even though my army doesn't have them.

Martel732 wrote:
" had a wraithknight fall to skyhammer in one round of shooting. 2 grav cannon, 1 combi-grav, 2 lascannons. This was a knight with 2 5+ invulns (shield, FNP"

Anecdotal. What's the average firepower to down Mr. Wraithknight? I'll take the four gravcannons, thanks. Even though my army doesn't have them.

let's see...

4 grav cannons + combi-grav, ultramarine doctrine

20*.6666 = 13.333 hits, with rerolls = 17.77 hits
17.77*.666 to wound = 11.83 wounds, with rerolls = 15.78 wounds
15.78*.666 (scattershield) = 10.51 wounds
10.51*.666 (FNP) = 7 wounds

3*.666 = 1.998 hits, with rerolls = 2.66 hits
2.66*.666 = 1.77 wounds
1.77*.666 (scattershield) = 1.18
1.18*,666 (FNP) = .787 wounds

total = 7.787 wounds...enough t take down the wraithknight no problem. Liek I said, I faced 2 grav cannons and 2 lascannons, plus combi-grav. It was inevitable.

"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

Martel732 wrote:
"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

way to be a douche.

if you recall, I objected to scatterlasers in a previous post (at least scatter bikes, again anything that can be spammed). And for your knowledge, I'm a DA player too, which have access to grav. Even a scatter laser doesn't have ROF 5, lol. I'm pretty sure marine players everywhere would start crying if a starcannon was bumped to salvo 3/5.
I stand by my judgement, grav weapons are OP with current ROF. games are going to be real fun when you see massed scatterbikes vs massed grav bikes, yawn.
congrats on earning my first ignore!

"games are going to be real fun when you see massed scatterbikes vs massed grav bikes, yawn. "

It's the game GW has made.

The other problem is that the Grav-Cannon invariably comes with a Grav-Amp, even the man-portable version.

Which makes little sense to me, as it's the equivalent of a twin-linked weapon on a centurion.

With the amp included, it's better than a heavy bolter at crowd control, which means there is literally no good reason to include any other heavy weapon.

And, yes. I suspect the original complaint - talking about a Hierodule - was mostly provoked by Tyranid stuff. The problem is that Monstrous Creatures were - originally - primarily a thing associated with (a) Daemons and (b) Tyranids but it's not either of these which made them so ridiculously overpowered as to demand counter-weapons to reign them in.

The Dreadknight, Riptide and Wraithknight are all things. And as long as they are so stupidly good - and keep getting made better - you can't afford not to have anti-monstrous-creature things.

Tyranid monsters - at least, the archetypical, assault-focused ones like the screamer-killer - can never stand a chance since they by definition have to charge through the fire which is designed to take out a wraithknight or riptide in one turn of fire (which you need because it dances around your weapons range).

Ultimately, Tyranids could do with a serious price drop on their gargantuan creatures relative to their counterparts. But that just makes the escalation worse, because I've played an overlord swarm versus a 'normal' army, and they're still nigh unstoppable with missile launchers, lascannons and plasma. So you have to take the go-go-gadget grav cannon, because it's the only thing you can take in sufficient numbers to stop them without leaving yourself useless against anything else.

 bullyboy wrote:
I just don't understand why the cannon gets 5 shots and the Hvy Bolter gets 3.

Because grav was the new hotness to sell models. It wasn't available before, so none of the marine boys had any, necessitating them giving money to GW. The last thing it needs is buffs.

Didn't vote as you didn't include a "no changes" option.

The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

I get where you come from, they do have a ridiculous amount of shots and they ruin most things days and rerolls arent that hard to come by anymore. I think GC should change the rule so anything that doest use the detroyer or toughness chart (including things like wEb guns that would aginst initiative becuase that still uses the chart but a differnet characteristics) has its dice modified by -2. This makes sniper and poison 6s to wound and 2+ poison now wounds on a 4+. Grav becoumes 5+ to wound against meq armour on GC and so on.

However, it is true larger things would suffer from just a small increase in gravitic fields. I struggle to believe that a wraithknight would be able to stand on earth. You can argue future materials, but something designed to only exist in space doesnt confer great properties for building war machines. something like the wraithknight shouldnt be able to exist at that scale. And bio titans seem ever sillier, as whales cant exist out off the support of water as their size crushes their own lungs and heart.

Martel732 wrote:
"total = 7.787 wound"

That's not exactly a crazy amount of cleared wounds. Go cry some Eldar tears somewhere else. Or shall we bring up the ROF on the g%dd#$mn scatterlaser?

How is it I can randomly browse Dakka and see this come from the same guy constantly for weeks? Have you not figured out ways to kill them yet? I'll admit I do feel they're a bit cheap though, but scatter spam isn't a new thing.

You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

See plan on just doing two house rules

Set wounds on GC only works on 6+
haywire only glances on a 6+ vs super heavies.


Fluff wise makes tons of sense and good balance.

This is the maths for 4 Dev squads with the easy rerolls




Shots 20
Hit 13.33333333
Reroll 4.444444444
Total Hits 17.77777778
Wound 14.81481481
Reroll 2.469135802
Total Wounds 17.28395062
Gets Past 6++ 14.40329218
Gets past FNP 9.602194787


This is the math behind meltas much more resasonable for point to damage ratio

Shots 4
Hit 2.666666667
Reroll 0.888888889
Total Hits 3.555555556
Wound 2.962962963
Total Wounds 2.962962963
Gets Past 6++ 2.469135802
Gets past FNP 1.646090535

Superheavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures are supposed to be more durable, the issue I have is for some reason gargantuan creatures also gained near immunity to weapons designed to hurt them effectively while melta and haywire take no penalties hurting superheavy vehicles. I've been running gargantuan creatures with no penalty to hurting them via poison and sniper and they become far more balanced than the current rendition. Things have counters, always have. Grav is a good one, but shouldn't be the only one. Leave it as is.

PS, I play eldar and Orks, I have gargantuan creatures, I still see no problem with this.

Grav may have a lot of shots, but they are short-ranged. This puts the platforms they are on right in the line of fire of basically every weapon in the game short of melta. That is the trade off from Plasma. Plasma gets fewer shots, but longer range (and a slight possibility of blowing the user up). Plasma also is effective against everything, whereas Grav sucks against horde armies. It should stay as is.

 Kanluwen wrote:
None of the above.


Gargantuan Creatures shouldn't be immune to everything that wounds on a different roll than the normal S vs T.

I disagree. If they're gonna be immune to most armies stuff, why not be immune to the Space Marine stuff as well.

Eldar GCs are dead cheap and a 3+ save with a 5++ inv

Ork GCs are a bit more expensive but have what a 4+?

Its the 800 odd point GCs with 2+ save that is the problem usally with no inv as well. Ignoring the 2+ save is easy for anti tank weapons (las / plasma / melta) all ignore it but its the by passing the T that you pay so many points for.

Be the same as fighting knights and grav caused an immoblised result. Knights would just sit there rest of the game. But that would be broken reason they ignore that part

Worse case ever fight grav weapons and they insit on 2+ will run RAR put the foot of bio titan in a ruin. throw shrouded so got a 2+ cover save because it follows rules like an MC just need toe in scneery to get full cover save.

Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Edit: I make superheavy vehicles roll on the damage table, immobilized causes to move half speed, additional results just do extra hull points. They iignore shaken and stunned, weapon destroyed happens normally. The big toys don't ruin my games at all, as iit apparently does others here.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that point total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Every one knew that all ready i think. But all the other GCs are under costed. If it is 1 unit of grav dev able to pop a GC turn 1 no problem. Either GC should have 3-4 times more wounds. Alot less points.


Or just give the big GCs a 3++ so AP2 still useful but things dont die as much

Bassline wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that point total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Every one knew that all ready i think. But all the other GCs are under costed. If it is 1 unit of grav dev able to pop a GC turn 1 no problem. Either GC should have 3-4 times more wounds. Alot less points.


Or just give the big GCs a 3++ so AP2 still useful but things dont die as much

If this happens, make my Transcendant C'Tan a GC again. And make him cheaper. If not, then they're just fine as is.

Grav weapons are a deterrent in the meta to make you not want to spend all your points on big tough monsters. You counter grav by filling in points with weaker save units and out positioning the grav weapons. Grav only becomes an issue when you magic the crap out of them, and even then they are points wasted shooting at things like great gnarlocks and swarms. Counters to counters to counters makes the game challenging.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

You still haven't addressed the dependency in volume of shots. And further more, you have only highlighted the range issue. Drop Pods can be Bubble Wraped against easily in the case of Tyranids and Orks and probably Daemons, Dante is extremely expensive way to not scatter and even then you need to find your way within 3/6'' to Melta. Battle Suits have 3'' extra melta range, but vulnerable to scattering out of melta range, Termicide is worse. And even then, if we consider all of these units get into range, then we need to consider that danger they are in for beign within 3''-6''-9'' of the enemy super heavy. On the other hand Grav Cannons can sit nicely on the 24'' mark, considerably safer from counter assault.

Grav has the range advantage, the ROF advantage, the Wounding advantage (Wounding a 3+ GMC with re-rolls vs Penning an AV 13-14 thing on 8+2d6) and none of the downsides of Melta when compared against there specific targets (Super Heavies and GMC's respectively).

In comparison, it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are.

A million times this.

"In comparison, it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are"

The only weapon keeping marines relevant is too good! Clearly, this is the problem. Not the continual decay of the value of T4 3+ units, nor the complete obsolescence of regular S4 shooting. Nor the unequal power distribution between the actual marine codicies.

Maybe grav wouldn't be so noticeable if other marine/Imperial heavy weapon were worth a damn.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

Oh noes, Marines and other armies of the Imperium have a reasonable counter-tactic to Wraithknights! The Horror! It's not like the Eldar have ranged D on infantry, or the ability for the weapons they hand out to their militia to be able to slice through it!

Outside of a Skyhammer or a Centurion unit coming in a pod/coming with Draigo, your GCs should have nothing to fear. Bikestars Grav don't reroll to wound, and if normal devastators are in gravcannon range long enough to fire 20 shots, the GC player is the one that screwed up. Don't blame the game for that one.

As for the Skyhammer, a typical grav 10man squad costs 325pts. Are you then telling me a unit armed with a weapon that is designed to bring down large, tough models should then not be able to perform the function of brining down large, tough models? That issue can simply be solved by reserving the Wraithknight, barring your opponent going second. The Pod Cents have less shots, and again, reserves! As for Draigo and Friends, well, you play Eldar in this situation, and if anyone should be capable of shutting down enemy psychic powers, it is Eldar.

The game needs things that counter out other things - Grav weaponry being something that counters things that Imperial Armies do not typically have (GCs, MCS). If you place your big, expensive model and expect it to be immune to all weaponry, well, that is your fault, not your opponents or the game. I think the popular term is 'learn to play'? There are options both within the rules and within your codex that can blunt an alpha strike designed to cripple your large monsters.

I think most people are missing my main issue, so I'll repeat it.
I don't have an issue with grav hurting hvy armoured units, monstrous creatures, my wraithknight etc, I really don't. I think the mechanic is a cool concept. But typically, high strength weapons need a couple of turns to take down something like that from one unit. Reliably taking out such a volume of enemy/monstrous creature in one round of shooting is excessive. But truth be told, this is really only a problem with the skyhammer, regular deployed devs are less nasty and can be avoided etc. Centurions are OK because only 3 can fit in a pod and they are big nasties themselves. That still doesn't take away biker spam. Again, this may be more of a factor of army design than the weapon itself. If grav bikes were only available as 2 specials per unit, no problem. But seeing all of these "command sqds" with all grav seems odd. If the specials were more limited it would be fine, same with the scatterbikes. I feel that these days I need to bring a dustpan and brush to pick up my dead models to save time.
I guess the same can be said with wraithscythes dropped with a webway portal, another point and click unit, although I don't think they would take down a knight in one round of firing (they could, but statistically I don't think so). They would rape other units that grav rapes though. Now if Eldar had wraithscythe biker units, the world would surely end!

But the grav weapons are much more expensive than melta, and melta guns in drop pods have been destroying higher point value superheavies than wraithknights since they were an option.
Grav is supposed to be a deterrent. You don't take a pile of big nasties because there may be grav, you don't take a blob of peeons because the enemy may have a superheavy capable of taking them all out, you dont take grav because the enemy may bring piles of cheap bodies that grav is weak against.

Counters to counters to counters.

let's be honest, most of the no-save armies that are immune to grav are not top tier codexes, they have their own inherent weaknesses. And it's very easy for an army with grav to have a lot of things that hurt those too. Bikers for example, grav guns may suck vs no save infantry, but twin linked bolters still get the job done. Grav would still be a deadly choice if it were less ROF. Is there really a choice between a biker with a 15pt plasma gun or a 15pt grav gun? The 1st one hurts more targets sure, but it has less ROF, less range, can easily kill it's owner, and the bike has a twin linked bolter for stuff it can't reliably hurt with grav. The only middle ground seems to be Sv 4+ where the plasma may be better. But anything T7+ with armour is better vs plasma than grav.

I still don't know why grav has such high ROF, what's the mechanic behind it? How does it churn out more shots than an assault cannon?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

You still haven't addressed the dependency in volume of shots. And further more, you have only highlighted the range issue. Drop Pods can be Bubble Wraped against easily in the case of Tyranids and Orks and probably Daemons

Jolly good for them. Try bubble-wrapping a Land Raider or an Imperial Knight if you're not playing a horde army where you can't afford to have anything stood around doing nothing. Different factions have varying levels of difficulty with certain weapons, melta and grav both being among them.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Grav has the range advantage, the ROF advantage, the Wounding advantage (Wounding a 3+ GMC with re-rolls vs Penning an AV 13-14 thing on 8+2d6)

You're not taking into account the fact that melta, by virtue of being AP1, has a 50% chance to leave a Land Raider either immobilized or dead every time it penetrates.

Grav cannons tend to come with amps and so its 4/9 to wound against geq so 0.89 per 3 shots. Grav cents however will get to fire all 5 and often have a reroll to hit due to CT, so becomes 1.48 wounds against geq which is 2.7 times more effective than a lascannon.

I see the point of a 1000pt GC being killed by a 260pt unit in one turn of shooting at upto 24" is one of the worst examples of imbalanced game design in the entire game. If people can't see the absurdity of that then what on earth else would you consider imbalanced?

I'm not saying grav per se is unbalanced, against a 300 odd point wraithknight it's ok, but against a GMC which is 3 or more times the points? Not so much.

Aarrggh there were 3 pages! I was responding to the first page.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To pen a LR a melta has to be in half range, hit, get a 7+ and then get a 4+ to immobilize or pen, taking that 50% down to 19%, and no melta has a melta range of 24" afaik.
Also a LR is 1/4 of the points of some of these GMCs.

The heirophant bio titan is 1000 points, but has 10 wounds, a 6+ invul save and feel no pain. It also gets cover by simply putsing one of its feet in a terrain piece while also pumping out 12 str 10 ap3 shots a round, and swinging at init 6 in melee with at least 8 attacks. It is immune to strength 5 or less also. There needs to be some counters to it, otherwise it won't be stopped. Let's not forget that offense counts for a huge chunk of points on the gargantuan creatures, it's not all survivability that the points represent.

The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Dreadknight kills a WK in a single round of combat. Nerf Dreadknight!

I only skimmed over the first page and some of this page but why not say snipers, poison and grav require a role 1 higher to wound instead?

snipers and poison wound on a 5+ instead, grav which normally wounds a wraith knight on a 3+ requires a 4+.

Wouldn't that be better? after all, what's dark eldar supposed to do against a gargantuan creature at the moment?

Poly Ranger wrote:
The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Wraithknights are not immune to S5.

Basically grav is total and utter rampant undiluted miserable bollocks.. they are supposed to be pre herasy but now everyone has 15.. they don't even have models that look even remotely good and who the hell ever got a "heavy 5" gun to hold of ANY kind.. let alone rerolls to wound.. forget any "grav" wounding mechanic think "any" gun... anything str7 5 shot.. ffs imagine if warp spisers were heavy 5 with their special wound profile.. just garbage

 krodarklorr wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Wraithknights are not immune to S5.

You are correct. Don't know why I thought that for a moment.

The heirophant is also 2+ armor, so basically ignores krakk missiles. The biotitan is also HUGE! It's footprint is about 10" across WO it being able to toe hug cover is significantly better than the wraithknight is. These things matter.

What is this power struggle of comparing everything to Eldar?

The Wraithknight is undercosted, no body in this thread has disputed that and everybody knows it. So why in gods name are you using the fact this is your best weapon against Wraithknights as a defense? ''This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''?

Why don't you compare your Grav to what the OP is actually thinking about when he started the discussion, Tyranid GMCs. They are much more expensive then the Wraith Knight, don't have many more wounds and lack invulnerable saves. Sure they can get a nice save by standing in terrain, but he won't stay in that terrain as if he is sitting still and just shooting he isn't being a good use of points. So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar and Orks should be.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What is this power struggle of comparing everything to Eldar?

The Wraithknight is undercosted, no body in this thread has disputed that and everybody knows it. So why in gods name are you using the fact this is your best weapon against Wraithknights as a defense? ''This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''?

Why don't you compare your Grav to what the OP is actually thinking about when he started the discussion, Tyranid GMCs. They are much more expensive then the Wraith Knight, don't have many more wounds and lack invulnerable saves. Sure they can get a nice save by standing in terrain, but he won't stay in that terrain as if he is sitting still and just shooting he isn't being a good use of points. So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar and Orks should be.

"'This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''? "

True in general for GW games.

"Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here,"

But they are. You always compare against the best, not the middle.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Tyranid GMC's die just about as easily as our other ground based MCs. They lack invulns (or in the bio-titans case have a 6++), fleshbane still wounds on a 2+, and they go down to volume of fire. Grav is just another thing that takes them down.

Lets have a little comparison. The bio-titan costs 1000 points and shoots 12 S10 AP3 48" shots. For a little less than 1000pts, I can get 18 kataphron destroyers that put out 108 shots of grav at 30".

edit - meh removed the sarcastic comment

Whats the BS skill of the Titan?

BS 3 like any good Nid

Grav weapons need to be a threat, if they are not then people won't need fear anything on the table with certain units. The moment a unit becomes "auto take" the game and meta break down. The primary reason I think we see grav so prevalently in the tournament scene is horde armies are unpopular due to time restrictions. My local meta includes swarm nids, Ork trukk boys, imperial guard, and renegades. I've never seen people spam grav because there iis a serious chance it will do nothing. Grav seems powerful, but only because everyone refuses to not take things it is REALLY good at killing.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There needs to be some counters to it,

The counter was for it not to be played outside of Apoc.

 Desubot wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There needs to be some counters to it,

The counter was for it not to be played outside of Apoc.

But, I loves me some giant models in 40k. Apocalypse takes too long, having bigger models with higher point totals let's me get a 2000 point game in in under 3 hours. Bonus for a second shift dad with limited gaming time!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Grav weapons need to be a threat, if they are not then people won't need fear anything on the table with certain units. The moment a unit becomes "auto take" the game and meta break down. The primary reason I think we see grav so prevalently in the tournament scene is horde armies are unpopular due to time restrictions. My local meta includes swarm nids, Ork trukk boys, imperial guard, and renegades. I've never seen people spam grav because there iis a serious chance it will do nothing. Grav seems powerful, but only because everyone refuses to not take things it is REALLY good at killing.

The reason people do spam grav/melta/high str shooting, is because in order to handle hordes, you grab a thunderfire cannon, whirlwind, templates, anything with decent amounts of shots of any strength... and hordes go away. And usually working anti-horde into a list consists of paying 200ish points to never have to worry about large amounts of cheap bodies.

Ironically grav further invalidates the much loved but never played terminator armies that everyone seems to have, because their weight of fire and AP2 makes terms turn into a liability rather than a strength. Well... maybe if terminators could be kitted with grav weapons people would take them...

Wraith Knights are undercosted. We know this to be true.

Tyranids big bugs are overcosted. We know this to also be true.

I've never really had an issue with grav, but then I don't have wraith knights or a ton of 3+ armor in my eldar army, and almost no such armor in my dark eldar/harlequin forces. On paper, I don't really have an issue with grav weapons being effective against GMCs for the same reason I don't mind fleshbane being good against them. I do, however, feel that the costing and abilities of various superheavies a lot, due largely (I imagine) to the relative newness of their inclusion in normal 40k. If wraith knights weren't a fraction of the cost of 'nid GMCs while being considerably more effective, we might have an easier time agreeing on the costing of things that are good against them.

That said, the rate of fire on grav weapons does seem a bit odd to me, especially compared to other marine options. How would marine players feel about lowering the cost of grav, but also lowering the rate of fire on it?

Of course, I personally would like to see everything marinerelated get better and more expensive to make them feel more "elite," but that's just me.

yep, deathwing terminators vs grav....that'll work out great.

a 10 man grav dev sqd churns out 20 grav shots at 280pts, will kill 10 terminators in one round of shooting (and I'm not even factoring in bolter shots..just grav). That's 400pts of deathwing without upgrades. In one turn.

Agreed. That's more my issue with Grav weapons. I don't mihd them being good at killing big monsters so much, because I don't mind there being a 'monster-killer' class of weapons in the same way that meltaguns are tank killer weapons.

The problem is that the monster killer weapon used to be plasma - its strength wasn't quite high enough to punch out battle tanks, but enough that T5-T7 was a reasonable ask and the 2+ or 3+ save (which stops the Autocannons and Scatter Lasers which handle light vehicles) wasn't a problem.

Grav weapons, however, are just better at everything.
An amped Grav-cannon:

~ is better than a heavy bolter at killing guardsmen (heavy bolter does 1.6 wounds to the grav-cannon's 1.85)

~ does more HP damage to a tank than a multmelta at close range (multimelta does 1.11 HP including Explodes! results, grav-cannon does 2.05 including repeated Immobilized results)

~ is better than a plasma cannon at killing terminators (plasma cannon about 1.1 depending on the blast, grav-cannon about 2.6)

~ does more wounds to a gargantuan creature than a heavy wraithcannon (heavy wraithcannon 1.94 when you count a '6' as 9.5 wounds, grav-cannon 1.975 even assuming only a 3+ save and including feel no pain)

~ can move and fire effectively at close range

~ can be snap-fired against flyers, invisible units and in overwatch

~ has concussive to knock any target down to I1

~ Is available to all powered armoured marine units allowed a heavy weapon


The weapon's only real weakness is versus daemons, which generally have no armour plus an invulnerable save and turn up in decent numbers.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head Iocarno. It's not that there shouldn't be a weapon that is a GMC/MC killer, it's that the weapon that fills that role... also fills (nearly) every other role. It makes marine armies heavy weapons decisions come down to "in my mix, do I want more melta, or more grav". All the other heavy weapons serve little purpose or are too specialized to be worth taking in a TAC list.

Isn't it also more expensive than most of those, and also has a 24" range as opposed to a 36" for all but the multimelta? There are drawbacks to using it, such as area denial based on range. And don't forget that in "today's meta" most infantry units that aren't space marines are toughness 3/4 with 4+ armor (fire warriors, space marine scouts, and dire avengers). The heavy bolter does better against these units at longer range than grav does, and any cover will see those numbers drop quickly. Grav is strong, but let's not go crazy here.

It scales in effectiveness as you opponent gets stronger with no cap, just like gauss, blade storm, strD, and haywire. These weapons allow a player to use models they like and still compete with giant toys, without them silver tide, footdar, and basic marines CANNOT deal with the power level of some units out there. It also makes the riptide, dreadknight, wraithknight, and nid monster mash users think twice about using nothing but the toughest models at their disposal because your opponent may actually have a counter to it. You'll notice the release of several tyranid monstrous creatures with lower saves and secondary save options (shrouded and invul saves) that have dropped since the grav weapon was introduced. That isn't a coincidence...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Isn't it also more expensive than most of those, and also has a 24" range as opposed to a 36" for all but the multimelta? There are drawbacks to using it, such as area denial based on range. And don't forget that in "today's meta" most infantry units that aren't space marines are toughness 3/4 with 4+ armor (fire warriors, space marine scouts, and dire avengers). The heavy bolter does better against these units at longer range than grav does, and any cover will see those numbers drop quickly. Grav is strong, but let's not go crazy here.

It scales in effectiveness as you opponent gets stronger with no cap, just like gauss, blade storm, strD, and haywire. These weapons allow a player to use models they like and still compete with giant toys, without them silver tide, footdar, and basic marines CANNOT deal with the power level of some units out there. It also makes the riptide, dreadknight, wraithknight, and nid monster mash users think twice about using nothing but the toughest models at their disposal because your opponent may actually have a counter to it. You'll notice the release of several tyranid monstrous creatures with lower saves and secondary save options (shrouded and invul saves) that have dropped since the grav weapon was introduced. That isn't a coincidence...

You make some good points. Now I'm going to be a jerk and disagree with a lot of them. ^_^

Having limited range on grav isn't really that big a deal because you're generally either drop-podding it in or sticking it on a bike. Rhinos and foot marines aren't really a thing these days, at least not from what I've seen. Being more expensive is sort of outweighed by being good at everything, but there is an argument for taking less expensive, more specialized options.

Most non-marine infantry may be a 4+ save these days, but many armies are still marines. Eldar jetbikes are basically marines. Also, while infantry certainly isn't irrelevant, it often takes a back seat to things like GMCs, nasty vehicles, and so on. Grav weapons may be less effective against my dire avengers or my friend's fire warriors, but we're probably less worried about those dying than wraith units and riptides. And bolters will kill off most infantry with a 4+ save just fine.

I partially agree with you regarding grav scaling up the nastier the enemy threat is. I like the idea of grav being an efficient way to kill things off that gets better the bigger/tougher the target is. My (minor) gripe with grav is that it has enough shots to also be good at other jobs reasonably well. It's not the anti-MC gun. It's the anti-MC, anti-vehicle, anti-TEQ, anti-MEQ gun with enough shots to not be completely terrible against light infantry. Harlequins, orkz, 'nids, and daemons put a dent in its effectiveness, but 3 of those 4 are generally considered to be lower-tier armies. And those armies still have MCs or vehicles for grav to go after.

When you mention the release of Tyranid MCs with worse saves, cover saves, etc., do you mean the psychic focused witchfire guy the giant venomthrope? The first never gets taken, and the second is probably subpar. Of course, all Tyranid MCs are kind of having trouble these days except for dakka flyrants and *maybe* dakkafexes and exocrines. Those last two definitely have their downsides though. To be fair, Tyranid MCs suffer from a lot of issues ranging from being overcosted and lacking a variety of decent ranged anti-vehicle options to not having invulnerable saves or even 2+ saves (outside of the hugely expensive tyrannofex). A lot of the TMC weaknesses are internal, but grav weapons don't help their situation either.

Again, I'm not especially anti-grav. I'd like to see it become cheaper but also have fewer shots. It would still be a cost-effective terminator and MC killer, but it wouldn't be able to reliably go vehicle hunting on top of that.

The range of grav can be largely discounted due to being able to be mounted on bikes, or loaded up into a drop pod. Or just gate the cents around.

Basic marines have access to lascannons, krak missiles, and plasma, all of which do pretty well vs the big stuff. They're all cheaper than grav too. And yet they never see the table (well, to be fair I've seen lascannons mounted on top of free razorbacks lately).

The nid monsters that have been released lately were the toxicrine, which has been a resounding "meh", and the maleceptor, which was a "what were they on when they made the rules for this".

edit - Wyld you ninja

But, the delivery systems mentioned aren't the fault of grav. The main issue I have is that the man portable versions have amps. Nearly all of the complaints, and most of the data would see a serious drop if the heavy weapon version in question didn't come stock with what amounts to shred and tank hunter. Also, grav does nothing to fortifications. Counter them with a bunker and get some killing done.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But, the delivery systems mentioned aren't the fault of grav. The main issue I have is that the man portable versions have amps. Nearly all of the complaints, and most of the data would see a serious drop if the heavy weapon version in question didn't come stock with what amounts to shred and tank hunter. Also, grav does nothing to fortifications. Counter them with a bunker and get some killing done.

Drop pods and grav bikes aren't directly the fault of grav, but grav does nasty things when mixed with them. I hear less complaints about grav pods than grav bikes though, and the main complaint about grav bikes is, again, the number of shots. Mostly I was just addressing the point about the range difference though.

But yeah. Some form of mild nerf (along with a points drop) would probably be reasonable. Again, I personally don't mind grav too much, but I can see an argument for nerfing them in some way, if only so that they aren't an obvious choice over other special weapons.

Why isn't there an option giving the opinion that a change isn't necessary?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Grav weapons need to be a threat, if they are not then people won't need fear anything on the table with certain units. The moment a unit becomes "auto take" the game and meta break down. The primary reason I think we see grav so prevalently in the tournament scene is horde armies are unpopular due to time restrictions. My local meta includes swarm nids, Ork trukk boys, imperial guard, and renegades. I've never seen people spam grav because there iis a serious chance it will do nothing. Grav seems powerful, but only because everyone refuses to not take things it is REALLY good at killing.

To the bolded portion, you mean like Grav Guns? I understand your local meta may be different but the problem I've seen with people who are so adamant about Grav Guns is that they refuse to look at it through the eyes of an opponent who isn't playing a top tier army. My example will remain tyranids. Think of this.
"I want to take a few MC's for support but I know "so and so" is going to take x unit with grav guns and he can pretty much nullify one each every turn from outside their threat range. Oh wait the only respectable HQ I can have is a Tyrant right? So theres a free slay the warlord right there unless I give him wings in which case my opponent is going to call cheese. Alright but "so and so" knows he is facing tyranids so aside from grav weapons you can bet your sweet ass he is gonna have a bunch of flamers and barrage whirlwind squadrons to ignore any of the cover provided by my venomthropes. Well guess my swarm is pretty useless but I'll still go play for the fun of it."


The issue is the ability that one Grav squad has to force the hand of your opponent. I get that marines need some answer to wraithknights and the like, but again going back to the hierophant your choices basically boil down to: Do I sit back and just accept that it costs 1000 pts for 12 S10 AP3 shots a turn at only BS 3 and no twin link, or do I charge forward and die in a blaze of "glory" (there aren't even any explosions to make me look cool dying? sad face) and throw away 1000 points. Then get castrated by the rest of his army.

PS
Sorry I forgot the option for no change I was caught in the heat of it when making the page.

Ps Ps

How bout the idea of some sort of strength test to ignore the "wounds" caused by Grav? and no loss in effectiveness?

PS PS PS
Also thank you all for all the responses and debate its good to get so many opinions. Too bad GW passes paperwork at the same speed as the administratum of the imperium. So we have to deal with it for now.

So, you have grav guns to counter monsters, and flamers/whirlwinds to counter the swarm. Grav guns are special weapons, same as flamers. And whirlwinds are taking heavy support slots, same as grav toting devestators and centurions. So, they need to choose. There is also the fact that the swarm aspect of your army directly counters their gravguns and the monstrous creatures directly could her their flamers and whirlwinds. Now you and your opponent are trying to outplay one another with even forces because the game has balanced itself with your unit choices. If you take too much of anything, you will win hard or fail hard. Too much grav and the swarms eat you, too many low strength ignores cover and the big bugs take you down. The same applies in reverse.

So no, I honestly don't think grav needs to change.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

And there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing, that is wrong with that. You should have to make choices with your weapons at the list-building phase.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

And there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing, that is wrong with that. You should have to make choices with your weapons at the list-building phase.

Yeah, I dont see an issue with this at all. Neither weapon is efficient vs guardsmen, and that is no way to measure their usefulness in this game. Vs an MEQ the grav is far better, even if it were ROF 2. I just do not understand why the weapon has a higher rof than a HB or AC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We hear about scatbikes being so bad, but a grav bike unit with 2 grav guns and a combi-grav is far better at killing marines etc than 5 scatbikes. Both are overused imho.

", but a grav bike unit with 2 grav guns and a combi-grav is far better at killing marines etc than 5 scatbikes"

Not if they have cover.

Aren't the grav bikers more expensive anyway?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Aren't the grav bikers more expensive anyway?

Yes, and they have shorter range and aren't as good vs AV 10/11. The range is the real killer though. And the scatterlaser is one-stop shopping. It slaughters light armor, all infantry, and most MCs.

I dont have SM codex but know that 5 scatbikes are equiv to 4 RW bikes with 2 grav and combi grav. If SM bikes cheaper, then numbers maybe equal.

 bullyboy wrote:
I dont have SM codex but know that 5 scatbikes are equiv to 4 RW bikes with 2 grav and combi grav. If SM bikes cheaper, then numbers maybe equal.

5 SM Bikers with two grav guns is the same as 5 Scatterbikes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I dont have SM codex but know that 5 scatbikes are equiv to 4 RW bikes with 2 grav and combi grav. If SM bikes cheaper, then numbers maybe equal.

5 SM Bikers with two grav guns is the same as 5 Scatterbikes.

Wow. Such a joke.

To me the principle factor of Grav Weaponry is that they play off of armor saves and not toughness.

So you could have a gargantuan creature with T8 and a 5+ save and Grav Weaponry wouldn't be super effective but Lascannons would. I mean... that's why Grav isn't the be all, kill all weapon that people act like it is. Grav weapons are terrible against Orks and blobbed guard. They're not fantastic against vehicles either. I think they're fine as they are.

 Dust wrote:
To me the principle factor of Grav Weaponry is that they play off of armor saves and not toughness.

So you could have a gargantuan creature with T8 and a 5+ save and Grav Weaponry wouldn't be super effective but Lascannons would. I mean... that's why Grav isn't the be all, kill all weapon that people act like it is. Grav weapons are terrible against Orks and blobbed guard. They're not fantastic against vehicles either. I think they're fine as they are.

Have you been keeping up with our argument here? We haven't, not once, said that Grav-Guns are the Be all End all weapons. We never complained our Wyches and Guardsmen were getting shredded by Grav-fire. What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters. The ROF of these weapons, combined with their ability to functionally ignore toughness and being universally AP 2 on platforms which have easy access to Re-rolls all for the same cost as a Plasma Gun. If grav guns were 1/2 and cannons were 2/3 they would still be effective against Monsters, more so then a Las Cannon or Plasma Gun, but they wouldn't be able to erase a Carnifex a turn for each Centurion in the unit.


Can you give me another example of a weapon which is AP 2 with a similar rate of fire and wound rate (assuming most Mc's have a 3+ Sv)? No? Exactly, because Rate of Fire should be inversely proportional to the quality of the shot or cost a hell'a lot, but yet Grav is relatively cheap, AP 2 which a high ROF. It's hard to argue they deserve to have all this while Dark Eldar pay 15pts for a Blaster.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters.

A thousand times this.
Especially when you consider that a stationary grav gun (not cannon) has as many shots as a heavy bolter, and more AP2 shots than rapid-fire plasma at greater range. The fact that you can throw them with ease on relentless platforms just makes them even worse.

I guess I'm just not sympathetic to a lot of the complaints that are being voiced. Grav weapons do one thing and they do it very well. They kill things with good armor saves. But they don't help against massed infantry, things with high toughness or poor saves, or vehicles. They also don't really have stellar range.

Because that's the thing that stands out the most to me. You can have stationary Grav guns or Grav cannons and you can gun down all kinds of things but that means those units aren't taking objectives, pressing the advance, or maneuvering into a better position. And sure, you can put them on bikers but then you're shelling out hard and as soon as anyone sees Grav bikers they make sure to erase them. Combine the limited range with the speed at which some monstrous units can close with targets and you're looking at one or two salvos at most. So some people might say to just saturate them across your army but in doing so you're compromising anti-tank, anti-blob, and melee.

And comparing Grav weaponry to the weapons of a group like Dark Eldar doesn't make any sense. Sure they might not have have the ability to sling AP2 left and right but they've literally got poison coming out of their ears and they can close gaps faster than anyone. As for monstrous units just pump them full of Dark Lances or dispatch them with Eldar Rangers (because you can do that) unit they stop movin

" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

 Dust wrote:
I guess I'm just not sympathetic to a lot of the complaints that are being voiced. Grav weapons do one thing and they do it very well. They kill things with good armor saves.

Yes they do, and they do it very well...better than any other gun in the game. And those things generally cost significantly more than the grav gun, which can be fielded en masse now.

 Dust wrote:
But they don't help against massed infantry

The only other SM option for squads that have a choice is the heavy bolter. If it's light enough that grav sucks, then sticking with boltguns is your most economical choice.

 Dust wrote:
things with high toughness or poor saves

News flash: High toughness units generally have good saves. And even if they don't, you'd be hard-pressed to find another gun that wounds them and gets 5 shots. And cannons with amps actually aren't that bad against low saves:
6+: 1 unsaved wound
5+: 1.8 unsaved wounds
4+: 2.5 unsaved wounds
That's 5 shots at bs4, giving 3.33 hits, and those wounds are regardless of toughness. A heavy bolter gets 2 hits, and wounds at S5 against whatever toughness. For T4 it's 1.33 unsaved wounds, meaning that a grav cannon becomes more effective starting at a 5+ save. T3 gives 1.67 unsaved wounds, so a grav cannon+amp is better starting at 4+. But guess what? Bolters are AP5.

 Dust wrote:
or vehicles

A grav cannon+amp does 1 immobilized result on average to a vehicle, regardless of armor value. 2 such results wreck most vehicles in the game, and the ones they don't are AV14 meaning that a lascannon needs a 6 just to roll on the damage table. Sure, melta is generally better in this case, but grav can fill in if you need it to.

 Dust wrote:
They also don't really have stellar range

Grav outshoots plasma and melta on range, heavy bolters have more but as shown above grav is better against most targets.

Unlike say, Eldar, SM don't have high ROF troop killers. There is no scatter laser equivalent. But just because one codex is broken doesn't mean we need to break another.

 greyknight12 wrote:


Unlike say, Eldar, SM don't have high ROF troop killers. There is no scatter laser equivalent. But just because one codex is broken doesn't mean we need to break another.

But Grav weapons aren't broken. They have their strengths and weaknesses as people have been debating for four pages. If anything was broken in the new Marine codex it would be the ability to take a bucket of razorbacks for free. Not a matter of AP values or range or application or math or probability but just free. They're just there for the taking.

And I don't think the Eldar codex is broken either. If every book gets jacked up and unhinged then everyone can gut each other equally.

you can generally tell when a weapon system is broken when you see it spammed repeatedly. Scatter bikes as mentioned, marines with grav (not sure what's worse...grav cents in pod, skyhammer gravs, or biker command sqd grav...I think the latter due to the combination of stormshield)

One thing I would change in the rules regarding bikers is that a weapon carried by the biker and not mounted does not get relentless. Then a choice between plasma and grav would be more difficult...now, grav is a no-brainer...every. single. time. That = broken.
It's a gun designed to take down the toughest elements in an opponents army, and does it flawlessly at a generally cheap cost, unlike most of it's targets. That's why it makes no sense to equate to how many guardsmen it kills....feth guardsmen, these things are wrecking anything with an armour save of 3+ or better, and there are plenty of that around.

Again, I don't mind the mechanic, but it shouldn't be "easy button" easy. ROF 3 max on cannons, ROF 2 on guns. Done deal, still a deadly weapon. By all means, knock a few points of the cannon, and take away the reroll wounds...that is just silly, unless you do a single 50pt upgrade for the squad.

 bullyboy wrote:

One thing I would change in the rules regarding bikers is that a weapon carried by the biker and not mounted does not get relentless. .

Now that... that would be interesting. And I could see it making sense too. Not only is shooting something like that from a bike difficult, that might not even be a factor considering other things marines are supposed to be capable of, but it would give some justification to other units. Black Knights and Legion Outriders mount special weapons of various sorts directly to the bike rather than shoving them into the arms of the rider. It makes for a better visual, in my opinion, and seems more reasonable with the whole driving a motorcycle through a gunfight business.

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

Now that poison doesnt work on WK, grav is pretty much necessary there as well. With the number of Riptides I've fought, my argument does NOT go down the drain. Grav is the weapon needed against units that are too good. Get rid of those units, and you can nerf grav. Otherwise, eat grav and die MCs. It's certainly the only hope BA have against them.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

Now that poison doesnt work on WK, grav is pretty much necessary there as well. With the number of Riptides I've fought, my argument does NOT go down the drain. Grav is the weapon needed against units that are too good. Get rid of those units, and you can nerf grav. Otherwise, eat grav and die MCs. It's certainly the only hope BA have against them.

Soo...because 1 or 2 units in the game are OP, Space Marines need a weapon that makes them worthless? Riptides have midling firepower without Markerlights, and die to Plasma Fire. Everyone has a problem with Wraithknights, and EVERYONE admits they are OP. Why on god's green earth would you use THAT unit as your benchmark for firepower? Why don't you compare it to Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocks, Talosi, or you know, every other MC that isn't considered OP by at least 90% of the player base?

Measure somethings effective by what is deemed acceptable, otherwise your only furthering the power creep and yourself, playing on a crutch.

"Everyone has a problem with Wraithknights, and EVERYONE admits they are OP"

Universal acknowledgment doesn't stop people from fielding them. I need a way to kill them in the game, not just cry "OP!". Grav is that way.

"Why on god's green earth would you use THAT unit as your benchmark for firepower?"

Because that's what I have to play against. A lot. Also, grav is far from an autokill against Riptides; and trying to kill them with plasma is actually very difficult. Riptides don't let marines within 12" usually. Grav is pretty much the only weapon marines have that has a chance of downing a Riptide consistently.

" Why don't you compare it to Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocks, Talosi, or you know, every other MC that isn't considered OP by at least 90% of the player base? "

I don't see those MCs. I see Riptides and WKs and DKs. Those are the relevant MCs, not the other ones. Oh yes, I see flyrants too, but flyrants don't really care about grav do they?

"Measure somethings effective by what is deemed acceptable"

What other people deem acceptable is irrelevant. What they actually put on the board is.

At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

Oh My, so your saying....you're supporting the power creep? If we judge everything by it's ability to beat the ''best'' then everything will continually get ''better'', and the winner of every game will be the latest codex out. If that's what you want, it's a very different vision to me.

Your view is basically a big F-U to all pre-Necron codexes. Orks, Non-Flyrant Spam Tyranids, Dark Eldar? No, you don't get to have a balanced game because your books are old.

Ridiculous. But also irrelevant. Re-read the OP. If you truly think that his Bio-Titian deserved to die to a single unit of Grav Centurions, at 1/5 of the cost, in a single volly simply because it's not ''the best'' then GW Power Creep may have warped your sense of fun for all to much. Just wait until GW goes Age of Sigmar on 40K asses...

"Oh My, so your saying....you're supporting the power creep?"

Support? No. Accept, yes.

"Your view is basically a big F-U to all pre-Necron codexes"

Ironic, because I play mono-BA. No one is giving me a break because my book sucks. They just try to table me faster.

" No, you don't get to have a balanced game because your books are old. "

GW has already decided this. I'm adapting to the reality.

" If you truly think that his Bio-Titian deserved to die to a single unit of Grav Centurions, at 1/5 of the cost, in a single volly simply because it's not ''the best''"

If this is a likely outcome, I would never use it because grav cents are common. It's called meta game.

I'd say yes to you supporting it, since in every proposed rule thread relevant to IoM in someway you always want to buff things through the roof up to WK, ScatBike or Harvest Wraith levels.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'd say yes to you supporting it, since in every proposed rule thread relevant to IoM in someway you always want to buff things through the roof up to WK, ScatBike or Harvest Wraith levels.

No, just accepting it. If I could make those units go away, I would. But I can't and you can't. Also, people usually won't agree to nerf themselves. They are more likely to agree to a buff for another list. I know zero Eldar players will to accept scat bike nerfs after they built 40 of the things. Can you blame them? I guess sorta, but it's all GW's world.

And I know Eldar players who are fully accepting of a ScatBike nerf. As an almost-Necron player (I own them but haven't played them since 5th) I would be fully accepting of a Wraith and Decurion nerf. As a Daemon player I'm accepting of a Summon nerf. As an Ork player... well there isn't really anything to nerf, so if they were I wouldn't be accepting... but that's another story.

I'd argue most people would want a fair game, but at the same time not willing to put more work than necessary into making it so. Since OP units are the minority of units in 40K, it makes more sense to nerf them than to buff everything else to crazy levels, and it would take less time.

Plus what makes you think a person willing to let you have a buff if they're the type of person who want to have an advantage and won't take a nerf?

"Plus what makes you think a person willing to let you have a buff if they're the type of person who want to have an advantage and won't take a nerf? "

Personal experience of 20+ years of gaming. It's a psychology thing. People seem to HATE taking nerfs on their stuff, but don't mind their opponents being brought up to "their level". They get to keep their sense of superiority, which is important to many gamers. The idea that they can't be beat with the "real rules".

"I'd argue most people would want a fair game"

I'd say many, but just as many gamers want to stomp a mud hole in you as hard as they can. Call it compensation for other parts of their lives, I suppose. So not most. At least not in this game.

"And I know Eldar players who are fully accepting of a ScatBike nerf."

As you might imagine, I know zero. And I know a couple that think they should be even better, because reasons.

" As an Ork player... well there isn't really anything to nerf, so if they were I wouldn't be accepting"

As a BA player, I can't take any nerfs to grav for the same reasons. Sorry other marine chapters have the same weapon. Remember, I have to fight them too.

"Since OP units are the minority of units in 40K, it makes more sense to nerf them than to buff everything else to crazy levels, and it would take less time. "

But there's actually multiple tiers of units. There are units that would be OP if the current OP stuff was nerfed. So then that would have to be nerfed. It would generate less butthurt to make everyone awesome instead of making everyone crappy.

Wait, you really think half the playerbase of 40K are TFGs?
Wow that's a massively pessimistic view.

So... because someone doesn't want their WK to be nerfed we should buff every unit in C:Orks or C:BA, for example, and the rest of the Eldar codex (sans ScatBikes and the other few problem units)?

Also, in my experience people only really hate nerfs when they are applied to units that don't need them or that are too nerfed, which is really the only types of nerfing GW has done.

and we've already established just how different (to put it lightly) your gaming community is from everyone elses', so it's no surprise to me that you know people who want to buff OP units further.

"Wait, you really think half the playerbase of 40K are TFGs? "

20+ years of playing tells me that yeah, pretty much. Whiney, foot stompy, want to blow me off the table and take no damage in return. That's a big section of the 40K player base. It's the same people that call you homosexual on Starcraft for executing your build better.

Also,there's the debate on whether competitive players are TFGs or not. From a BA perspective, it makes no difference why my opponent has units I can't beat. All that matters is that he has them and is killing me with them. If I called all the Eldar players TFG that fielded units I can't handle, they'd ALL be TFG, even the nice ones.

Also, starting with BA in 2nd ed set on the path to pessimism pretty quickly. I had a game against CSM where I didn't get a turn because he tabled me in one turn of shooting.

"So... because someone doesn't want their WK to be nerfed we should buff every unit in C:Orks or C:BA, for example, and the rest of the Eldar codex (sans ScatBikes and the other few problem units)? "

Yup. Everyone would be much happier, I think. If GW had central rules authority, it wouldn't be too hard. But they don't, so it's impossible and the TFGs and the pay-to-win guys get their way.

If my son didn't like marines, I would probably quit tomorrow.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

I think your math is off a bit.

Lascannon - .667 hits, .556 Wounds (2/3 hit, 5/6 Wound)
3 shot Grav - 2 hits, .667 Wounds (2/3 hit, 1/3 Wound)

A gravgun doesnt have a 2/3 wound chance against a guardsguardsman. Your mamath is wrong. 2/3 hit, 1/3 of those wound 2/9 wounds

Moot, because almost every unit with a grav gun also has a twin link bolter. Let's be real here. Grav cents don't, but they have grav amps.

The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

Wow. Because lascannons suck out loud against them. Riptide scoffs at your ROF 1.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

Wow. Because lascannons suck out loud against them. Riptide scoffs at your ROF 1.

The God emperor did smile upon me that day, I was more hoping to scare him into backing up a bit by peeling a wound or two. Normally, especially now that I can afford (money wise) them, gravs are the way to go.

This was back when the 6th codex just dropped and I didn't learn the magic of centurions yet.

The sad part is that grav cents are perfectly fair until you add Draigo/invis shenanigans. Lascannons would actually have a job if naked grav cents were a thing. But... GW happened.

I hate grav canons. It has stopped me playing.

I just collect and paint now. They are 5 shots? AP2? Wounds re rollable? Hit re rollable? Give me a break.

All you guys who think they are remotely fair are bullsh!t artists

ConanMan wrote:
I hate grav canons. It has stopped me playing.

I just collect and paint now. They are 5 shots? AP2? Wounds re rollable? Hit re rollable? Give me a break.

All you guys who think they are remotely fair are bullsh!t artists

Given a straight comparison of platforms, they are more fair than scatterbikes. However, with support they get out of hand. Of course, so do scatbikes. It just takes them longer to sandpaper tough units down.

I just find it funny that ITC puts a major nerf on D weaponry for Eldar, but grav is fine

yeah, never playing in an ITC event. Heck, if grav cannons are fine at ROF 5, wraithcannons should be bumped to ROF 3, lol!

I know one thing, my Ravenwing bikers will not be spamming grav.

I still think the support mechanisms for grav cents are the real offenders. You need the grav cannons to burn down MCs. Eldar have scatter lasers and pseudo rending for that purpose.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

First off the debate is not about YOU and YOUR local meta it is about the game as a whole and not just tournament play WAAC either. The point is that Grav is too effective for its cost. Either reduce its effectiveness or increase its cost. There is no reason whatsoever that a unit designed to take out multiple higher priced units in succession should exist. If you want people to stop bringing wraithknights which are the only real problem as the DK and Riptide aren't as impossibly difficult to kill as you say they are, then simply making grav the same price as such a unit can neutralize those and go on to earn further points elsewhere. As it stands now they are pretty much a 100% without a doubt, guaranteed points return and then some which is just wrong. My only other offer to someone who acts unreasonable like yourself is that all my Tyranid MC's should become just as much of a pain in the ass as the units you want your grav guns for with no points increase. Anyone can be unreasonable my friend. It takes a bit more to step back and view it from all perspectives not just your own "I want to win" perspective.

Also on a side note, the things that you are referring to as "real MCs" Are all a bunch of fething vehicles. Not any sort of creature and certainly not a monstrous one at that. That little meat sack controlling it is the closest thing to creature represented.

On a MUCH MORE important side note you will notice that my original proposition was meant to have literally no bearing on MCs and was meant to affect GCs solely but just continue to bend this out of context be my guest. At its worst my original toughness chart suggestion would make most of your to wound rolls an honest 4+ against your average MC but you'd still have your AP2 and could still put down basically any MC with relative ease. Even at Toughness 8 you'd still AP the Wraithknight on that chart.

This page wasn't meant to be so you could cry about how everything needs to be OP, it is about proposing a homemade solution to GW's game design (or lack thereof) that makes the game more reasonable and fun. The issue I see coming up is that a lot of people who happen to be Necron, Eldar and SM Grav players seem to think that fun means winning all the time. The fun of a game like this is meant to come from the mental sparring match between two generals. NOT from the easy win every game where one player works their ass off in an attempt to outdo their opponent's cheese while the opponent just points to his unit and points his finger and kills everything. If a persons regular life is that frustrating that they need to pummel someone for their own happiness then they should go join a gym and get stronger not be some frustrated manchild who lives in a pile of overpriced plastic models.

Given all possible targets in the game, grav is fine. Yes, it's too good against some targets, but other targets practically require it. Not my fault.

"The issue I see coming up is that a lot of people who happen to be Necron, Eldar and SM Grav players seem to think that fun means winning all the time. "

I'd settle for not losing all the time. All the time being more than 60% for full disclosure.

"Also on a side note, the things that you are referring to as "real MCs" Are all a bunch of fething vehicles. "

Not according to our GW overlords.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

First off the debate is not about YOU and YOUR local meta it is about the game as a whole and not just tournament play WAAC either.

Who's said anything about WAAC? Tournament play and WAAC isn't the same thing, pretending it is is rather rude to those of us that like playing as strong lists as possible without cheating.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

First off the debate is not about YOU and YOUR local meta it is about the game as a whole and not just tournament play WAAC either.

Who's said anything about WAAC? Tournament play and WAAC isn't the same thing, pretending it is is rather rude to those of us that like playing as strong lists as possible without cheating.

Technically nothing is "cheating" if it is in a codex but that doesn't make it right to do. Also I meant to put or WAAC my mistake they were not intended to mean the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Given all possible targets in the game, grav is fine. Yes, it's too good against some targets, but other targets practically require it. Not my fault.

"The issue I see coming up is that a lot of people who happen to be Necron, Eldar and SM Grav players seem to think that fun means winning all the time. "

I'd settle for not losing all the time. All the time being more than 60% for full disclosure.

"Also on a side note, the things that you are referring to as "real MCs" Are all a bunch of fething vehicles. "

Not according to our GW overlords.

I'm on that losing side with you sorry your Chapter is sub par at the moment. Would you prefer they make it a chapter tactics instead?(not sarcasm an honest question) Also the MC thing was in lore not rules obviously I know what the lunatics at GW wrote it as I've fought the models.

Look. BA have grav guns. That's all. It's LITERALLY the only weapon I have that a Riptide or WK cares about. They nerfed my poison against the WK so now I'm fethed without grav.

What BA don't have is grav cannons w/amps. And we also don't have the skyhammer formation. I understand why it sucks to play against that. But it also sucks to shoot all the original Imperium weapons at say a Riptide and accomplish nothing.

There's massive power creep and it's affecting different lists completely unequally. Most Tyranid MCs and BA are just both on the short end of the stick.

I still can't believe that there is 6 pages of arguing about grav guns against GCs, MCs, and Super heavies.

Must be a really hard life being a player who brings something that is usually naturally OP to only get it countered by basically its one and only weakness.

A smart player would change their list to include units grav would barely affect, but nah lets continue making these already tough as hell creatures impossible to kill!

greytalon666 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

I think your math is off a bit.

Lascannon - .667 hits, .556 Wounds (2/3 hit, 5/6 Wound)
3 shot Grav - 2 hits, .667 Wounds (2/3 hit, 1/3 Wound)

A gravgun doesnt have a 2/3 wound chance against a guardsguardsman. Your mamath is wrong. 2/3 hit, 1/3 of those wound 2/9 wounds

Didn't say 2/3 chance to wound Guardsmen. I said 1/3 Wound.

Therefore
3 shots Grav, 2/3 will hit (BS 4). This nets us with 2 hits.
Of those hits, 1/3 will wound vs Guardsmen (unless they have Carapace armour). This nets us with 2/3 of a Wound.

Yes, each shot has a 2/9 chance to Wound, 3 shots equals a combined 2/3 of a Wound.

"A smart player would change their list to include units grav would barely affect,"

Losing a model to a boltgun is to embarrassing to do this.

TuddFudders wrote:
I still can't believe that there is 6 pages of arguing about grav guns against GCs, MCs, and Super heavies.
Must be a really hard life being a player who brings something that is usually naturally OP to only get it countered by basically its one and only weakness.
A smart player would change their list to include units grav would barely affect, but nah lets continue making these already tough as hell creatures impossible to kill!

Yep, carnifexes/tyrannofexes/tervigons/trygons/walkrants naturally OP. Grav is the only way to counter these threats.

 Cytharai wrote:

TuddFudders wrote:
I still can't believe that there is 6 pages of arguing about grav guns against GCs, MCs, and Super heavies.
Must be a really hard life being a player who brings something that is usually naturally OP to only get it countered by basically its one and only weakness.
A smart player would change their list to include units grav would barely affect, but nah lets continue making these already tough as hell creatures impossible to kill!

Yep, carnifexes/tyrannofexes/tervigons/trygons/walkrants naturally OP. Grav is the only way to counter these threats.

Well, they are better than most vehicles at the same price points. That can beconstrued as being OP.

Martel732 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

TuddFudders wrote:
I still can't believe that there is 6 pages of arguing about grav guns against GCs, MCs, and Super heavies.
Must be a really hard life being a player who brings something that is usually naturally OP to only get it countered by basically its one and only weakness.
A smart player would change their list to include units grav would barely affect, but nah lets continue making these already tough as hell creatures impossible to kill!

Yep, carnifexes/tyrannofexes/tervigons/trygons/walkrants naturally OP. Grav is the only way to counter these threats.

Well, they are better than most vehicles at the same price points. That can be construed as being OP.

Better at doing what exactly?

Not dying like little bitches.

Certainly not when it comes to Grav.

For pretty much everything else, though.

Grav is basically melta for MCs. The fact that is hoses over a ton of other units is an incredibly unfortunate side effect.

Martel732 wrote:
Not dying like little bitches.

I just don't even know where to go from there.

There are MCs to fear - mostly the Knight class MCs (WK, DK, Riptide), but are non-flying Nid MCs really that scary?

If you think Grav is bad, you should see how a beast hunter shell is against my IG.

Either way, I really don't think understand why people want MCs to be so ridiculously tough. They already have invul saves + FNP most of the time that vehicles don't even get.

There really isn't a hard counter to MC's besides beast hunter shells, mass lascannons (which suck vs horde), and D weapons.

Comparing TMC toughness to Guardsman toughness. Pretty close matchup. Also - TMC's don't have invulns, and have to rely on psychic powers going off to get FNP (if you have the proper power). And aren't krak missiles, lascannons, force weapons, any sort of high ROF weapons of any strength enough to get through T6 and a 3+ armor save?

I do understand why I want TMC's to be "tough". Cause if I walk any sort of TMC, it doesn't make it halfway across the board.

 Cytharai wrote:
And aren't krak missiles, lascannons, force weapons, any sort of high ROF weapons of any strength enough to get through T6 and a 3+ armor save?

The ROF weapons are, there just are 0 Space Marine heavy weapons outside the Grav Cannon that has more than two shots except the Assault Cannon, which doesn't have any good platforms other than possibly the Stormtalon. Thus, in order to get enough rate of fire to deal with TMC spam without using Grav, one would have to gimp one's list against other armies. Neither Eldar nor Necrons care that much about Krak Missiles, for example.

Forget about existing grav weapons for a moment, and noodle on this: what profile would a weapon have to have to be effective against MCs (and maybe TEQs) without also being devastating against most other targets?

jade_angel wrote:
Forget about existing grav weapons for a moment, and noodle on this: what profile would a weapon have to have to be effective against MCs (and maybe TEQs) without also being devastating against most other targets?

Because of the Riptide and DK, the grav gun, or something very close, is about bare minimum. Or, in other words, 18" ROF 3 Str 8 AP 2.

So basically the equivalent of ~2 plasma guns? (Or the Skitarri Plasma Caliver with +1 S?)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So basically the equivalent of ~2 plasma guns? (Or the Skitarri Plasma Caliver with +1 S?)

Yes, mainly because the Riptide, WK and DK exist. Get rid of 2+ armor MCs and T8 MCs and the bar gets a lot lower. I find the grav cannon excessive in general.

Does it need to be that broad?

WK is a problem, but is the T8 Wraithlord really a problem?

Similarly, Flyrants are a problem, but a Hive Tyrant on foot, kitted for CC?

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that, either - for example, as a Space Marine player, what's scarier? A Riptide (let's say with an HBC so we take the separately-OP ion accelerator out) or a Tyrannofex?

If you're at all like me (I play SM and Eldar and Tau), you'll say the Riptide, hands down. Why? Because it has a reliable 5++, situational 3++, and usually FNP. The Tyrannofex has +1W, and it might - possibly - have Shrouded and FNP, maybe. If it does, it's almost as terrifyingly hard to kill as the Riptide. If not, well, you can kill it pretty reliably with plasma, lascannons and melta. The Riptide, not so much. Shoot it with a melta, and odds are, it shrugs that hit off. The T-fex probably takes a wound unless the 'nid player sunk a lot of effort into making it extra-survivable and successfully lit off a psychic power.

So yeah, I see why you want grav.

To me, the Wraithlord isn't such a problem because of a few things: 1) No FNP, 2) 3W vice 6W, 3) Sniper and Poison work fine and the 3+ save means they might even stick, and 4) it's pokey.

With a Wraithlord, I can kill it in 1-2 turns. A squad of Kroot might even delete one in a single shooting phase if it rolls well. Moreover, I have 3-4 turns to kill it before it crashes into my important units, usually, and if not, it's sitting back hitting me with less firepower than a Falcon. Not that Falcons aren't scary, but Marines can deal with them easily enough. With a Wraithknight, it'll take me 2-4 turns to kill one (at least) without grav, but I only have 1-2 turns before it's in melee range. Also, both its shooting options are scary, though for different reasons and to different things. So with the WK, I pretty much need to grease it the first time I get to shoot at it, or it's going to delete things with contemptuous ease. With the WL, it's brutal if it makes it into melee but I have time to deal with it, and its firepower is something I can handle for a while if need be.

(As an aside here, I have much less trouble with the Wraithknight D-cannons than I do with the Wraithguard ones... Those should have stayed S10, thank you very much, that was quite deadly enough. Maybe replace "6 to wound is instant death" with "6 to hit is resolved at Strength D except on Snap Shots".)

EDIT: I can number, really.

"but is the T8 Wraithlord really a problem? "

I wouldn't know as I haven't seen one in a long time.

nobody is talking about taking grav away, just reducing the effectiveness of a singular weapon. Talking about greasing it in one turn is so typical of the attitude toward 40K currently. Grav allows a single unit to take out hundreds of points in one round of shooting, quite easily. And talking about a wraithlord is quite laughable, grav is basically wasted on this guy.
Reduced ROF grav would still be effective at doing it's job, it just might require more than one unit or more than one turn to topple a big nasty. This seems reasonable to me. How many turns/units does it take to topple a biker command grav sqd equipped with storm shields?

" Talking about greasing it in one turn is so typical of the attitude toward 40K currently"

I can't afford to have the Riptide running around turn after turn. By the time I get grav bikers within range, it has already done a ton of damage. It needs to die in one turn for BA to have any chance.

" it just might require more than one unit or more than one turn to topple a big nasty."

It's hard to get more than one unit within range, so that's why it's like this. Or at least should remain, because I doubt GW planned it that way. Don't forget the Riptide usually has HYMP broadside buddies raining death down as well.

"How many turns/units does it take to topple a biker command grav sqd equipped with storm shields?"

That is an expensive unit that can be chipped away pretty easily with Xeno wound spam. The same thing that kills most marine lists. Stormshields look silly if you force them to make 30 regular saves.

Lemme clarify what I meant about the Wraithknight: Imperial armies very often only have a few units that can actually hurt it with more than longshot odds. It can move very fast and kill almost anything, therefore I pretty much have to kill it or risk the few units that can either being killed or tarpitted. And because the Wraithknight is so fast, I don't have much time to do it.

From my perspective, as an SM player, I wouldn't mind needing to dedicate several grav-equipped tac squads or bike squads to bringing that Wraithknight down. In fact, that's probably how it should work. I'm just agreeing that something akin to grav weapons does still need to exist.

It's the rate of fire that makes it such a problem, and my original question was about brainstorming a weapon that would serve as an MC-buster but not share the grav problem of being just better against almost everything except GEQ. (Where, frankly, bolters actually are good - a bolter does to a Guardsman what a grav-gun does to a Hive Tyrant, y'know...)


So, as a brainstorm, here's an idea:

MC-buster that's not also a TEQ-buster: 24" S5 AP4 Rapid-fire, wounds against Initiative, ID on 6, Rending. Its cannon version gets 30" range and Salvo 2/3 instead of Rapid-Fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, @Martel - wouldn't it make sense if there were some way to force those big MCs to take a crapload of saves? Maybe some kind of weapon that is Fleshbane but AP -, with say Heavy 8 or so, maybe with Rending?

" I wouldn't mind needing to dedicate several grav-equipped tac squads or bike squads to bringing that Wraithknight down"

The Eldar will kill too many of your squads armed thusly, making the WK unkillable. These MCs aren't in vacuums, people. Even getting a single squad into range with enough grav left is a feat against Eldar.

You do realize we're talking about grav that's not in a vacuum? There's such a thing as kataphron destroyers that get 6 grav shots at 30" range. There's such a thing as invisible cent-stars that gate around the table wherever they want.

 Cytharai wrote:
You do realize we're talking about grav that's not in a vacuum? There's such a thing as kataphron destroyers that get 6 grav shots at 30" range. There's such a thing as invisible cent-stars that gate around the table wherever they want.

Invisibility is over the top, but it is one of the few marine counters to Xeno shooting. The whole thing is messed up and out of whack. Sounds like the kataphron destroyer is a new problem unit. Add it to the pile. To make this remotely fair, you'd have to leave BA and DA with full powered grav and then nerf cents and destroyers. I don't even know where to start with that mess.

TBF Kataphrons are only a problem with Grav, their other weapon choice (Their default weapon) isn't OP, from memory it's just a 2 shot plasma cannon with less range (Kinda like Dev Cents, really).

Honestly if I was going to rewrite Grav weapons it'd probably look something like this:

Grav-pistol: The same stats. Points decrease to 10pts as long as the same happens to the Plasma pistol.

Grav-gun: Range 18"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 1; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|15pts

Grav-cannon: Range 24"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|40pts with Grav-amp on the Heavy Weapons List (Now available for BA and SW), 30pts on Centurion Devastators.

Heavy Grav-cannon: Range 30"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Blast; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|10/15pts for Kataphron Destroyers (as opposed to free, like they were before. Remember this replaces their default Plasma Culverin)

The Bigger They Are...: If the hit model is Toughness 6 or higher and suffers an unsaved wound, this weapon causes D3 wounds instead of 1.

If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

bibotot wrote:
If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

No, because then Riptides are immortal.

Martel732 wrote:

bibotot wrote:
If Grav weapons are nerfed against Gargantuan, then Haywire should be the same against Super-heavies.

What I would like to see is Grav weapons being toned down to AP3. If you want to kill Terminators, grab Plasma and Meltas.

No, because then Riptides are immortal.

Alternative rule for grav weapons: Against T6 or higher models, rather than wounding on the target's armor save, the hits are resolved at Strength D. AP3, sure, but get a 6 to wound, and it's gone in one. No lucky 3++, or FNP to save 'em this time...

I wonder, would that be OP, or not strong enough?

I'm always opposed to weapons that need to pray for "6's". That's why I'm not a huge fan of the AC for anti-tank work unless you have a lot of them.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm always opposed to weapons that need to pray for "6's". That's why I'm not a huge fan of the AC for anti-tank work unless you have a lot of them.

Well, yeah, but here it's not "get a 6, inflict one wound or strip one hull point", it's "get a 6, remove 185+ point model from the table, no saves of any kind permitted." Lemme run the numbers -

Assuming one grav-gun, no twin-linkage: BS4, so an average of two hits. Against a Riptide, that's then a roll on the Destroyer chart, for 1.667 successful damaging results. If I'm thinking straight, that's not amazing odds (though one muffed armor save might be the end, if you roll a 2 or 3). It looks a lot better against a Wraithknight. Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You might have a point here, the odds might be too long without the AP2. But then, if hits against T6+ are Str D, you might not need the volume of fire, as long as it has AP2.

What about Grav Gun - Salvo 2/2, Grav Cannon, Salvo 3/3.
In addition to current effects, deals d3 wounds instead of 1

Hurts MCs much more now, while threatening Termies and most other infantry a bit less.

Bharring wrote:
What about Grav Gun - Salvo 2/2, Grav Cannon, Salvo 3/3.
In addition to current effects, deals d3 wounds instead of 1

Hurts MCs much more now, while threatening Termies and most other infantry a bit less.

Sure. Although people with ICs they care about (not me) will throw a fit.

As someone with ICs that I care about, I can live with that, I've got mooks to take the hits.

I like the AP 3 suggestion best. It solves the OP's original complaint (Grav weapons smoking his Bio-Titian's in a single turn for a fraction of the cost) while also solving what seems to be the biggest reason people don't wanna see it change, the Wraithknight.

As for Riptides, they aren't invincible. That biker unit that took 2 Gravs and a Combi-Grav can take 2 Plasmas and a Combi-Plasma, Of course it's not as effective, but it's also much cheaper then the Riptide and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game. Terminators can stay a little safer on the board and while Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and Talosi still get boned, at least they have FnP/Easy access to cover.

Perhaps more importantly it gives Plasma a niche. Currently, if your looking for AP in a Marine army, you look straight at Grav. When you need anti-MC? Grav. Anti-tank? Melta. Plasma needs a niche it can do better then any other special weapon SM have access to, and by making Grav AP 3 it makes Plasma your go-to weapon for AP 2 ranged duties.

"As for Riptides, they aren't invincible."

Without grav, they pretty much are for marines.

"e and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game."

Not really my experience. I almost always have to remove 4 or 5 myself.

Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

BA don't get free anything. Tri-las pred has too low of a ROF; I've tried those. Yeah, vanilla can just go Skyhammer. I'm talking about other marine lists.

" unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade"

Not expensive enough, evidently.

"You have lots of tools. "

Tools the Tau are really good at shooting off the table before they can reach the Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:
"As for Riptides, they aren't invincible."

Without grav, they pretty much are for marines.

"e and it will likely cause 1-2 wounds to itself over the course of the game."

Not really my experience. I almost always have to remove 4 or 5 myself.

You seem to be swimming in a meta full of mean xeno players.

a Riptide should cause a wound or two to them selves statistically if they are always using nova powers.

without gravs though its a hella uphill battle for marines against the big baddies like RT and WK.

"a Riptide should cause a wound or two to them selves statistically if they are always using nova powers. "

Don't they have a mode that's NOT nova charge but is still AP2? I think that's what they use against my guys w/o FNP because they don't need to double them out. All they have to do is roll a gets hot for that. The FNP upgrade makes is it so they only have to NOVA the save in extreme circumstances.

I'd say they cause an average of .75 W to themselves per game in my games.

Blood Angles have a formation of 3 Storm Ravens, which comes on turn 1, and the Marines inside have a Teleport Homer. Anyone who Deepstrikes within 12" don't scatter AND can charge first turn. Tau have reasonable Skyfire, but it is mainly Str 7 and AP 4, so they are extremely unlikely to down all those Ravens. Then next turn, your SS/TH Terminators or Assault Marines or Jump Pack Death Company deepstrike in and assault everything within range. Assault Marines won't kill a Riptide, but they won't run either so you get to tie is up until you Terminators can deal with it.

If your going to pull a Sob Story about how your army is left in the dust, remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Blood Angles have a formation of 3 Storm Ravens, which comes on turn 1, and the Marines inside have a Teleport Homer. Anyone who Deepstrikes within 12" don't scatter AND can charge first turn. Tau have reasonable Skyfire, but it is mainly Str 7 and AP 4, so they are extremely unlikely to down all those Ravens. Then next turn, your SS/TH Terminators or Assault Marines or Jump Pack Death Company deepstrike in and assault everything within range. Assault Marines won't kill a Riptide, but they won't run either so you get to tie is up until you Terminators can deal with it.

If your going to pull a Sob Story about how your army is left in the dust, remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options.

That formation has a LOT of problems against a lot of lists not named Tau. The first problem being having to buy 1000 pts of terrible units. (Yes, Stormravens are terrible) Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

"remember there are armies much lower on the food chain then Blood Angles, with a lot less options."

Those would be which ones? BA have a strong argument for worst list in the game.

Everything has a weakness, grav happens to be a GMCs weakness

Martel732 wrote:
Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

That doesnt sound like a problem with the list if its a mirror match....... just sayin.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Try again please. I personally have tabled that formation three times now. So it can't even win a mirror match consistently. Garbage.

That doesnt sound like a problem with the list if its a mirror match....... just sayin.

I'm making the point that if that formation is so great, it should be able to crush other BA lists not using that formation. But in my case, I tabled him using CADs. Three times. Pathetic.

Thats pretty sad. sorry when i read mirror match im thinking mirror list not codex.

Armies worse off then Blood Angles? Dark Eldar take the cake, closely followed by Pure Chaos Space Marines, Unallied Guard (although Forge World helps them out a lot), Blood Angles and Orks are neck and neck in my eyes and i don't know enough about Sisters to put them on the scale. But Dark Eldar, definitely Dark Eldar.

That formation is a hard counter to any army that doesn't have a strong assault element and doesn't have enough Skyfire to down the Ravens (which aren't half bad, lots of firepower and very durable, just a bit to expensive). We could make a list of Tau, Guard, Decurion Necrons (Apart from Wraiths, very vulnerable to being swept in combat), Dark Eldar, Scatbiker Spam and i am sure there are more.

But that's besides the point, if making Grav AP 3 means GMC , Tyrannofexes and Terminators get to have a fair game and the only problem it causes is Riptides, then that is a win. Besides, you have an option in your army that can decimate Tau, you just choose not to use it.

The Riptide has an 'overcharge' on the IA that makes it Large Blast Str 8 Ap 2, gets hot. However low BS means that it *needs* Markerlight support, the fact is doesn't ignore cover means it needs even more Markerlight support. So, as with all advise against Tau, if you can limit their Markerlights then they become much less effective. Almost 200pts for a single Str 8 AP 2 Large Blast isn't the best firepower pointswise...

Dunno orks have been doing good in competitive play lately apparently. (which is a good thing.)

Since it seemed to have been missed with the page roll over, what about something like this?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Grav-pistol: The same stats. Points decrease to 10pts as long as the same happens to the Plasma pistol.

Grav-gun: Range 18"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 1; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|15pts

Grav-cannon: Range 24"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|40pts with Grav-amp on the Heavy Weapons List (Now available for BA and SW), 30pts on Centurion Devastators.

Heavy Grav-cannon: Range 30"|Str *|AP 2|Heavy 2; Blast; Concussive; Graviton; The Bigger They Are...|10/15pts for Kataphron Destroyers (as opposed to free, like they were before. Remember this replaces their default Plasma Culverin)

The Bigger They Are...: If the hit model is Toughness 6 or higher and suffers an unsaved wound, this weapon causes D3 wounds instead of 1.

It doesn't stop the problem of Cents or Kataphrons destroying GC with ease, but it does stop them being able to wipe out other units with ease, focussing their role more.

 Desubot wrote:
Thats pretty sad. sorry when i read mirror match im thinking mirror list not codex.

Coward BA hiding in and behind Rhino are surprisingly resilient to alpha strikes. And bikes/jumpers have the mobility to still get around after setting up in a castle.

"Besides, you have an option in your army that can decimate Tau, you just choose not to use it. "

That's because our group doesn't allow list tailoring. I wouldn't know WHEN to use it.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Every time they overcharge they have a 1/3 chance of taking a wound, unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade, in which case he has a 1/3 chance of saving that wound.

If he doesn't overcharge, then the Riptides fire power simply isn't enough to justify it's cost.

As for killing it, Plasma is as effective as it always was, hitting on 3's wounding on 3's. Las cannons hit on 3's wound on 2's, multimelta's the same. Psy-Shriek vs Ld 8 is also very effective. You have lots of tools. For example all of those Free Razorbacks equipped with Las/Plas would be a great answer, as well as a Tri-Las Predator on the cheap.

BA don't get free anything. Tri-las pred has too low of a ROF; I've tried those. Yeah, vanilla can just go Skyhammer. I'm talking about other marine lists.

" unless they took the expensive FnP upgrade"

Not expensive enough, evidently.

"You have lots of tools. "

Tools the Tau are really good at shooting off the table before they can reach the Riptide.

For the record the "evidently not expensive enough" upgrade for FNP costs about as much as a terminator.

No one wants to nerf your BA into the ground. I will reiterate for the third time that the changes I proposed were only supposed to affect GC's and with the way they were written the grav weapons would still deny the WK its save as well as the Riptide since the riptide is only an MC(and for the fourth time therefore not affected by my chart). Even with my proposition Hierodules still get boned but I can suck that up and compromise. Can you? So please stop complaining now like you have for the past seven pages. Thanks!

Fair enough. It's hard when you've got exactly one unit keeping your codex playable.

Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Sternguard need some more special ammo profiles, one of which mimics grav. Plasma does have a place, mostly in non-relentless units.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Sternguard need some more special ammo profiles, one of which mimics grav. Plasma does have a place, mostly in non-relentless units.

I've been giving non-relentless melta and flamers.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plasma is better against MEQ, or 4+, than grav is. It can also Instant Death T3 models, which grav cannot. It does have a niche.

The internet believes this to not be true. Grav is just an I WIN button. Or something to that effect.

/sarcasm mode

Grav gets an extra shot vs MEQs, and from 6" further away. Really what plasma does for you is lets you kill Orks and other poorly armored units in a pinch. That being said, most plasma is gone from my lists. Grav IS extremely strong, but so are some of the units in the game now. It's pretty much a big mess.

My usage of grav has only increased since they made it so I can't poison out WK with Sternguard.

Sternguard need some more special ammo profiles, one of which mimics grav. Plasma does have a place, mostly in non-relentless units.

I've been giving non-relentless melta and flamers.

You really should just play sororitas. Everything you say makes me think you would enjoy them more.

There's just no way I'm paying for those models. I used to love BA. Now they are just fangless vampires.

Martel732 wrote:
There's just no way I'm paying for those models. I used to love BA. Now they are just fangless vampires.

Well i've a whole sororitas army I am selling before I got to England if you are curious, lol.

And BA do just fine in the meta here, but we are a lot less competitive than your meta it sounds like.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Alright then I was just under the impression that these things were supposed to be powerful creatures that took a large ammount of fire to kill. But if you want to efficiently kill it and still pretend you are having fun with your cheezy little autokill guns then go ahead. Just let me know how fun games playing with no one are. Gargantuan creatures and some superheavies but not all are brought for fun not for their efficiency. By taking things like Grav cannons or melta vets you remove the fun from the game purely for the sake of winning. So my proposition is if people can't resist pressing their I win button by themselves then GW should step in with a sledge hammer and smash the I win button so the game can be fun. Not so the game can be: oh I killed that really big thing with this one squad here and now my other 3 squads of that unit that equate to the rest of the cost of that GC can kill all your vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Lel. Git gud or git rekt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More seriously, even the ROF doesn't bother me - it's the salvo. If you had to wait a turn after podding for those shots, great! Being able to move and shoot an effective heavy weapon is brutal, especially when there are plenty of them around.

Gun should be RF, cannon should be Heavy 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

So, with this in mind, I am sure you can understand why Grav-Weapons seem like such a horrible, unfair thing. ''I bought this massive, super cool alien monster! RAWWWW!'' Then it gets instantly popped by 2 squads of drop podding Combi-Grav Stern Guard. Hit on 3's, wound on 3's or 2's, all for less then 300pts.

True