My name is Kro Darklorr. I would like your attention for one moment.
Are you tired of seeing Skitarii hijacking Blood Angel drop pods? How do they even get those, anyway? What about Ulramarine Centurions having a hang sesh with Draigo? Don't they know he's busy in the Warp?
What about seeing the Webway open up and having Raider gunboats surge out and drop off....Wraithguard? My word!
I'm here to tell you that, if elected, I will fight for the Solo rights of each army out there! No longer will we have to sit idly by and watch these travesties occur, with nothing we can do about it! I will go out of my way to ensure each army is fielded the way it was meant to be fielded. To make sure they use the abilities and resources they were meant to use. No longer will I sit and watch as 5 Flying Hive Tyrants (Why the Hive Mind would dedicate so many resources to having that many semi-sentient commanders on the battlefield is beyond me) fly across the battlefield as their....Imperial Knight??....ally stomps through the enemies faces! No longer will the Dark Eldar race be misused into forced taxi slavery! No longer will Dante let countless Drop pods disappear from under his noses as the Adeptus Mechanicus does what they will with them!
I will fight for equal treatment for all armies! And with your vote, we can make it happen!
Vote for Kro Darklorr, and together, we'll abolish the Ally Matrix!
My gut instinct is to abolish allies altogether, but understanding that many like allies for a lot of fluffy reasons, I think changing battle bros would be fine.
Why not just get rid of the matrix and basically have all the factions treat each other as battle bros and go all the way towards the path of the dark side.
And as always I choose heresy as my second option.
Blacksails wrote: My gut instinct is to abolish allies altogether, but understanding that many like allies for a lot of fluffy reasons, I think changing battle bros would be fine.
It's less an issue of Battle Brothers and Allies and more an issue of the garbage that is Fast Attack Dedicated Transports.
Droppods should be DT-only.
Transports should be detatchment-only
Wraith units should be AoC at best with any other detachments.
Allies can do good things (CSM and Demons, IG backed by a small SM force, Harlequins or Corsairs working with CWE or Dark Citiers). But it can also do some dumb things.
I think I've finally come to the point where losing BB would be acceptable to stop some of the derp. But I still like the concept of Allies.
(Usually only field my own Allies when its something like Eldar sub factions - my Tau, SM, and Eldar have never been fielded with each other. But having another player ally in is always a blast!)
Blacksails wrote: My gut instinct is to abolish allies altogether, but understanding that many like allies for a lot of fluffy reasons, I think changing battle bros would be fine.
It's less an issue of Battle Brothers and Allies and more an issue of the garbage that is Fast Attack Dedicated Transports.
True, though having BBs share abilities and whore ICs out is equally undesirable.
Good call though, axe FADTs while we're at it. End 40k's Uber.
MarsNZ wrote: Some factions are at a level now where you wouldn't see them on the table at all if they weren't providing some use as allies.
Obviously Necrons aren't one of those factions.
Exacty.
At least if BB were removed Xeno player wouldn’t be able to defend their OP codices by going, “dur, use allies and L2P”
Well at least the first part would change.
I voted to keep it as is but now that I think about it some more, Battle Brothers should not be allowed to board each other's transports. There's nothing else in the Allies rules that need changing.
Just because Allies and BB allow some dick move in competitive games or TFG behaviours elsewhere, you would forbid it? It's easier to prohibit a whole system rather than educate the small part of players who abuse it.
Moreover, that's totally unfair for fluffy players like me who just want diversity in their army. Your proposition would just kill a large part of the interest of 40k, you do realise that?
Coming from a guy with access to the Decurion formation and one of the best codecies of the games, I find it pretty bold. Not to say ridiculous.
Well I have never seen the issue as any irritation with this, can be avoided by simply talking to your opponent. Whom in most cases will not be out to screw you over with his lists or choices of allies
RazgrizOne wrote: Just because Allies and BB allow some dick move in competitive games or TFG behaviours elsewhere, you would forbid it? It's easier to prohibit a whole system rather than educate the small part of players who abuse it.
Moreover, that's totally unfair for fluffy players like me who just want diversity in their army. Your proposition would just kill a large part of the interest of 40k, you do realise that?
Coming from a guy with access to the Decurion formation and one of the best codecies of the games, I find it pretty bold. Not to say ridiculous.
I firmly believe a quality ruleset should leave as little interpretation and potential exploits or game breaking balance issues as possible.
To that end, keeping allies but hacking up Battle Bros to eliminate the cross codex combinations of abilities still allows players to field multiple armies for fluff reasons, but curbs any potential balance issues, which benefits everyone and doesn't leave it open to the differences in what people think is too powerful.
Furyou Miko wrote: Screw you guys, I want my Dominica-Pattern Drop Pods, and allies has finally given me a way to use them again.
So would Dominica Pattern Drop Pods in a Sisters of Battle codex.
While it's kinda/sorta fluffy for Sisters to have them, it's also highly open to abuse and nonsense.
You are right of course but what is more likely to happen a new Sisters codex or more of the same? Let's be realistic.
If we're "being realistic", we never expected to see a Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii book.
If we're "being realistic", we never expected them to destroy the Warhammer world proper and advance the timeline several centuries.
If we're "being realistic", we never expected Imperial Knights to become a thing.
The list could go on, but I think the point of "GW isn't exactly being predictable these days" should be fairly clear.
I like the idea of the allies system, in that it reflects the lore on the tabletop and can lead to a lot of fluffy combinations, but as we all have seen is definitely open to abuse.
Therefore, I would vote to change how Battle Brothers work, specifically by prohibiting them from riding in each others' transports.
I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.
Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.
I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.
So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.
If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.
Icculus wrote: I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.
Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.
I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.
So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.
If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.
This is literally one of the most reasonable posts in this thread.
No allies? No thanks. I like having options to collect what I actually like and build an army with it. I like being able to take Traitor Guard and ally them with Daemons. Battle Brothers shenanigans could be toned down though.
I cannot support this. Allies becoming a thing is what got me to come back to 40K. Reading the old White Dwarf issues from the 2000's and seeing Guard and Marines fight together against whatever threat there was really struck a chord with me. That's the core of the 40K universe to me, and that's the kind of thing I wanted to play.
TheNewBlood wrote: I like the idea of the allies system, in that it reflects the lore on the tabletop and can lead to a lot of fluffy combinations, but as we all have seen is definitely open to abuse.
Therefore, I would vote to change how Battle Brothers work, specifically by prohibiting them from riding in each others' transports.
Again, the issue isn't allowing people to ride in each others' transports.
It's the fact that you can purchase dedicated transports empty.
Period. End of story.
If you couldn't buy Wave Serpents, Drop Pods, or Raiders/Venoms empty--we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I like my Imperial Knights. No allies means I'm just putting nothing but five superheavies on the table. That sounds so much fairer and easier to handle than one or two knights allied to space marines, right?
I agree it's the transport stealing shenanigans that's the only unpalatable bit. Why are the Flesh Tearers sending out packs of drop pods to everyone anyways? Sharing transports isn't so bad, but I concur they should've left a Dedicated Transport grouping that can't ever be taken empty.
Kanluwen wrote: Again, the issue isn't allowing people to ride in each others' transports.
It's the fact that you can purchase dedicated transports empty.
Period. End of story.
If you couldn't buy Wave Serpents, Drop Pods, or Raiders/Venoms empty--we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Yeah, I've never had the need to use up a Fast Attack slot with a transport. Any unit in any of my armies can take an appropriate dedicated transport as part of their options. Using them as part of ally shenanigans is the only use I can think of for them, aside from maybe shuttling around a single IC.
The tanks that double as transports (Land Raiders and Battlewagons in my case) are a different story.
My name is Kro Darklorr. I would like your attention for one moment.
Are you tired of seeing Skitarii hijacking Blood Angel drop pods? How do they even get those, anyway? What about Ulramarine Centurions having a hang sesh with Draigo? Don't they know he's busy in the Warp?
What about seeing the Webway open up and having Raider gunboats surge out and drop off....Wraithguard? My word!
I'm here to tell you that, if elected, I will fight for the Solo rights of each army out there! No longer will we have to sit idly by and watch these travesties occur, with nothing we can do about it! I will go out of my way to ensure each army is fielded the way it was meant to be fielded. To make sure they use the abilities and resources they were meant to use. No longer will I sit and watch as 5 Flying Hive Tyrants (Why the Hive Mind would dedicate so many resources to having that many semi-sentient commanders on the battlefield is beyond me) fly across the battlefield as their....Imperial Knight??....ally stomps through the enemies faces! No longer will the Dark Eldar race be misused into forced taxi slavery! No longer will Dante let countless Drop pods disappear from under his noses as the Adeptus Mechanicus does what they will with them!
I will fight for equal treatment for all armies! And with your vote, we can make it happen!
Vote for Kro Darklorr, and together, we'll abolish the Ally Matrix!
Solo 2016!
I'd be ok with ditching allies altogether.
That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.
I play Tyranids, and the pentyrant/knight example offended me. Tyranids do well without allies, and proudly stand solo against every other codex. It is not our fault that everyone else needs a cane to get moving.
Seriously though, the allies matrix isn't such a big deal. Just roll with the times, and accept that certain issues crop up from time to time, and plan for eventualities.
Allies is a new thing that wasn't there when I played and is, broadly speaking, something I think is a good idea, but as far as I can gather, it has some significant problems in execution. I had Eldar and Dark Eldar when I stopped playing in '09 and my own made up fluff (since I'm not on board with the Dark Eldar schtick) was that the Dark Eldar were a scouting/raiding element for my armies craftworld. Having allies so I could play the two together would have been cool and fluffy for me, and it would have had nothing to do with trying to exploit to transport my wraithguard.
Sadly there are plenty of people who look at the rules not to field fluff, but to exploit and try to find broken combos. And anyone can easily say "I like these models and it fits my fluff so that is why I play it" when the reality is they like how those particular models can exploit the rules and be real uber and they don't give a rip about fluff or the feel of the game.
Would have liked the poll to give an option along the lines of "Alies are a good idea that needs tweaks, but I don't know quite how to fix it". That would be my answer. People have given plenty of examples of how allies are a good, fluffy rule. Sadly there are plenty of counter examples of the opposite. Fixing transport abouse sounds like a good start.
I enjoy the Allies matrix as is. If anything, I'd add a special rule to Chaos Marines that would allow them to take an IG allied detachment as Battle Brothers.
GreyHamster wrote: I like my Imperial Knights. No allies means I'm just putting nothing but five superheavies on the table. That sounds so much fairer and easier to handle than one or two knights allied to space marines, right?
I agree it's the transport stealing shenanigans that's the only unpalatable bit. Why are the Flesh Tearers sending out packs of drop pods to everyone anyways? Sharing transports isn't so bad, but I concur they should've left a Dedicated Transport grouping that can't ever be taken empty.
This. I am also in favor of continuing to have allies, as it allows you to game with a bigger range of miniatures (i.e. more combinations). The transport sharing thing is the main problem, and it would be so easy to fix. Big tournaments should probably house rule something about this.
Another problem, however, is allowing Come the Apocalypse allies. It allows certain combos that just shouldn't happen. I played a game recently against an opponent who had 3 Riptides and 3 Flyrants in the same list. The list wasn't broken by any means, and it ended up being a fun game, but it just reeked of cheese. I've also seen (but not played against) Imperial knights w/Daemon factory. Admittedly, some Imperial Knights might turn to Chaos or something (indeed, there should be some provision for this either in the Knights codex or a dataslate or supplement or something), but this kind of thing is just silly to me. Admittedly, part of my objection to this is fluff reasons, but still...
I wouldn't be sad if allies disappeared, however I think simply bumping them down a notch as others have suggested is the best. Not letting ICs join across armies and eliminating shared transports fixes almost all the current problems.
EDIT: It would actually be really interesting to se a tournament implement this.
I personally like the Allies matrix but that's probably because I run two armies:
a Knightworld themed IG list *so I couldn't run the single I knight I own with it*
And a growing Skitarii/Cult force *not being able to run these two together would be just silly.*
*So many edits. Thats what I get for late night typing
The background is full of alliances - from Blood Angels relieving Yarrick's defenders of Hades Hive to the Ultramarines and Eldar at Ichar IV, and such oddities as Imperial Guard and Tau fighting against a Genestealer cult (For The Emperor) or Orks with human "advisors" or mercenaries.
If you do away with the ability for the rules to represent this sort of thing, I think the game will be sadly reduced. If there are specific issues, [i]deal with those[.i], don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't allow Allies to ride in each others' transports. Make more use of Allies of Convenience and Desperate Allies. Take a leaf from Forge World's book and make the Allies Matrix asymmetrical (i.e. Blood Angels might be able to take Astra Militarum as Battle Brothers, but AM can only have Blood Angel allies as Allies of Convenience).
I think we have to remember, that Allies is the crutch that the game designers use for poor codex design. Its there so that it can excuse all of the poor choices are bad balancing that lies in every codex. Its not likley to go away. It also drives model sales up for the flagship line which might be flagging a bit without it.
All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.
Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.
Psienesis wrote: All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.
Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.
There is just no reason for this, the Imperium is NOT one giant happy army. All the IoM factions: space marine chapters, imperial guard, skitarri (aka cult mechanicus), the inquisition, etc all are interested in their own faction and general politics to a large degree and care very little for the other factions(cult mech especially gives 0 gaks about other factions). I mean even marine chapters simply don't co-mingle like battle brothers and many chapters actively hate others chapters. Even when you have chapters cooperating, they don't mingle, they instead each act as seemingly independent entities on the field sometimes following a larger strategy. An example that comes to mind is from on the books where a forge world was under attack by I think chaos and the cult mechanicus had no interest in helping defend until they were absolutely needed (city walls breached and the actual forges under assault) and would rather the guard/SM just take larger causalities then help since their facilities weren't being attacked yet. There is pretty much never a circumstance where a hero from one space marine chapter would be representing his chapter with marines from another, let alone guard.
The real issue is battle brothers. It should honestly just be removed, this would literally solve almost all ally problems. All battle brothers should merely become allies of convenience, because lets face it...they are even among the IoM.
For GW having allies is GREAT for selling models, so it will never go away now that its like this, there will always be allies for as long as 40K continues to exist because its an extremely easy money grab. Just throw factions together that are of the same race, ignoring all balance, and BAM insta money printing aka what allies currently are.
let's call a spade a spade, when people talk about DT swapping they're talking specificly about Droppods. generally no one's gonna care too much if a squad of guardsmen are riding around in a Rhino. it's when someone decides to put a squad of Skitarii in a drop pod or something that the issue arises. and there I'm as a fluff focused person in COMPLETE agreement. I've always been a biiiig fan of the concept of the narritive game oplay, but here's the thing. drop pods have always been presented as something that, at least among humans, only marines can really do. and that normal humans just aren't built tough eneugh to handle it. I don't mind rhinos and razor backs as fast attack choices. as I can actually envision some possiable narritive uses for them. but not drop pods.
Psienesis wrote: All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.
Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.
There is just no reason for this, the Imperium is NOT one giant happy army. All the IoM factions: space marine chapters, imperial guard, skitarri (aka cult mechanicus), the inquisition, etc all are interested in their own faction and general politics to a large degree and care very little for the other factions(cult mech especially gives 0 gaks about other factions). I mean even marine chapters simply don't co-mingle like battle brothers and many chapters actively hate others chapters. Even when you have chapters cooperating, they don't mingle, they instead each act as seemingly independent entities on the field sometimes following a larger strategy. An example that comes to mind is from on the books where a forge world was under attack by I think chaos and the cult mechanicus had no interest in helping defend until they were absolutely needed (city walls breached and the actual forges under assault) and would rather the guard/SM just take larger causalities then help since their facilities weren't being attacked yet. There is pretty much never a circumstance where a hero from one space marine chapter would be representing his chapter with marines from another, let alone guard.
The real issue is battle brothers. It should honestly just be removed, this would literally solve almost all ally problems. All battle brothers should merely become allies of convenience, because lets face it...they are even among the IoM.
For GW having allies is GREAT for selling models, so it will never go away now that its like this, there will always be allies for as long as 40K continues to exist because its an extremely easy money grab. Just throw factions together that are of the same race, ignoring all balance, and BAM insta money printing aka what allies currently are.
really so the IoM never cooperates together at all? IG battle psykers never work to support a Astartes chapter. and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?
and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?
In many instances...probably. Space Marines are not in the IG's chain of command nor their responsibility (and people get shot for going off-mission). If they're hauling around Space Marines, they're not hauling around their own dudes. They might pick them up to help them bug out in an emergency "everyone run away" situation, but probably aren't going to pick them up and drive them into battle. A Chimera also isn't designed to haul 8ft tall dudes in gigantic power armor, just as Drop Pods are not appropriate to non-Astartes troops.
You can always find or come up with exceptions to anything, that doesn't mean the rules should allow such in every single game.
Do they cooperate? Sure. Are they ostensibly on the same side? Mostly. Should they be able to treat stuff in other armies basically identically to their own? Probably not. As I pointed out earlier, I'd really be in favor of basically bumping every level of allies "up" one level (BB's act as AoC, AoC act as Desperate, Desperate acts as CtA, CtA becomes not possible).
That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.
Icculus wrote: I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.
Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.
I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.
So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.
If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.
BrianDavion wrote: let's call a spade a spade, when people talk about DT swapping they're talking specificly about Droppods. generally no one's gonna care too much if a squad of guardsmen are riding around in a Rhino. it's when someone decides to put a squad of Skitarii in a drop pod or something that the issue arises. and there I'm as a fluff focused person in COMPLETE agreement. I've always been a biiiig fan of the concept of the narritive game oplay, but here's the thing. drop pods have always been presented as something that, at least among humans, only marines can really do. and that normal humans just aren't built tough eneugh to handle it. I don't mind rhinos and razor backs as fast attack choices. as I can actually envision some possiable narritive uses for them. but not drop pods.
They're also talking about WWP Raiders loaded with Wraithguard for driveby D-Scything.
In any regards, I would say that literally the ONLY exception to the rule in regards to "normal humans in Drop Pods" would be the Skitarii. One of the biggest failures of that book was that they made everyone T3, when if you were to look they're more machine than man. It's ostensibly why they gave everyone in the army a FNP save, which is nice but again...T3 with a 6+ FNP(Rangers/Vanguard) and a 4+ save isn't going to be surviving too much outside of cover. The assault unit(Ruststalkers) and its support equivalent(Infiltrators) get 4+/6++ with a 5+ FNP save and it just does not work.
Icculus wrote: I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.
Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.
I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.
So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.
If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.
I just want to echo this. Beautiful.
Except for the fact that in quite a few cases that's what is already happening. Webway Portal Raider Wraithguard driveby isn't doable without a Dark Eldar IC.
And quite frankly, it should be that ICs can't join units that aren't on the field already nor can units board DTs which aren't on the board.
It really isn't though. With how many books say X rule applies only to models with X faction(like Skitarii being the only ones able to get Doctrina Imperatives or Cult Mechanicus only being able to restore Wounds to Skitarii/CM units), it isn't that excessive.
Battle Brothers were a bit excessive in some places but it really can be traced to the advent of the nonsensical empty dedicated transports as Fast Attack allowing armies which were balanced around having certain forms of transports(Eldar not being able to fire out of Falcons/Wave Serpents for example) or no transports at all(Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus, for example) to gain access to relatively precise Deep Striking transports which allow for them to disgorge their firepower with ease.
In the case of Eldar, it's become the Webway Portal equipped Lord in a Raider loaded with Wraithguard and with Skitarii we're seeing Drop Pods loaded with Vanguard and 3x Arc Rifles allowing for a total of 6 Haywire shots, with the ability to reroll misses if you've bumped their BS by 2 or 3.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Why not just get rid of the matrix and basically have all the factions treat each other as battle bros and go all the way towards the path of the dark side.
And as always I choose heresy as my second option.
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.
This.
Agree, this ^. Personally I would also like to see Allies gone but I would accept vipoid's solution as a means to allow those that like allies to keep them but toning down the abuses.
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Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
This ^
Part of the reason I personally would get rid of allies. You can do whatever you want among friends anyways but having allies in the rules leads to what is said above. Over time the uniqueness of armies is eroded. Also, rather than the company make each army work in dealing with other armies/units in differing degrees and in different ways, as each army should have strengths and weaknesses, it is easier to just take all the strong straightforward stuff from a combination of dexes. Then regular armies become useless because their weaknesses (along with GW making some dexes have lots of subpar units) become magnified.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Such as?
Such as an IC with a bubble aura or psychic powers.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Such as?
suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.
BrianDavion wrote: really so the IoM never cooperates together at all? IG battle psykers never work to support a Astartes chapter. and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?
That is not to say they don't cooperate, they definitely do, but not to the extent of joining each others units, this simply doesn't occur. I mean we are talking about an army that uses commissaries to keep its troops in line. IG are just simple drafties and the large majority are afraid/revere SM and the majority SM consider IG meat for the grinder except for a few known IG commanders. Cult mech literally give 0 feths about the others unless it literally directly affects them (I mean their literal buildings, stuff, etc) or benefits them in some way. The factions have no desire to actively hurt each other, but also no desire to actively help each other without some sort of benefit. It almost exactly like the medieval ages, where each faction belongs to a different house, but all the houses are subservient to the king. Houses look out for themselves and orders aren't clear (it can take months to get a message from one planet to another in the 40K world) so it further exasperates factions not exactly working together.
So regarding an IG psyker supporting marines, I think you are thinking of casting buffs etc like on the tabletop, these types of buffs are extremely rare/basically non-existent, extremely limited as compared to the table top game, or have an extreme price (like the death of the psyker). Even if the marines knew they could gain some buff I doubt they would use it as the majority of the IoM don't really trust psykers as psykers in general imply the taint of chaos, let alone a non-marine psyker as they don't have the gene seed of the emperor to steel their minds. Also it would be extremely hard for a psyker to keep up with marines.
As for the IG Chimera, assuming SM could even be transported by an IG chimera I doubt they would stop to pick them up, they would probably just see them and be scared or awed. The only way they would probably stop is if the marines forced them and then the marines would likely take over the Chimera, kick the IG out, and the IG would now be on foot for the good of the imperium.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Such as?
Such as an IC with a bubble aura or psychic powers.
"The Bubble Aura affects unit with X Faction" and "Psyker Dave can only cast Y Psychic Powers on X Faction".
BrianDavion wrote: suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.
Ever heard of centurion-star? Grey knight allies and their guaranteed gate of infinity make that possible. I think that ICs (also because of the archon and his WWP) are almost as much of an issue as dedicated transports, so knocking them down a peg as others have suggested fixes both issues in a clean, single stroke.
BrianDavion wrote: suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.
Ever heard of centurion-star? Grey knight allies and their guaranteed gate of infinity make that possible. I think that ICs (also because of the archon and his WWP) are almost as much of an issue as dedicated transports, so knocking them down a peg as others have suggested fixes both issues in a clean, single stroke.
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.
Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.
Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.
Such as?
suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.
I fully agree that the issue as things stand is transports. I'm just saying that, in essence, the issue is circumventing an army's weaknessses.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
So Space Wolves don't get Drop Pods?
In any case, that's more work than not putting them in the bloody Fast Attack slots to begin with.
Seriously. Just don't put them in FA and there's no real issue with them.
And 2D6 Wounds with no saves allowed is a far from meaningful solution--especially when one can make the argument that Skitarii(the biggest problem unit with Drop Pod allied shenanigans) should be put into that category of being immune to Terminal Velocity since it's the impact which is said to be fatal essentially rendering unaugmented humansDOA since it exerts extreme pressure upon their internal organs. Skitarii are more machine than man, which is supposed to be why they get a FNP save.
Just to be further clear, the problem isn't just that Skitarii are riding in Drop Pods--it's that a formation exists(Flesh Tearers in Leviathan) which is easy to meet the requirements and grants an absurd number of Fast Attack slots, of which Drop Pods are a Fast Attack slot.
You don't hear people complaining about Razorbacks or Rhinos for Skitarii, it's literally just the issue of Drop Pods being such a reliable delivery system for cheap Vanguard units with Arc Rifles and an Arc Pistol on the Vanguard Alpha and Drop Pods being available as a Fast Attack choice.
Remove Drop Pods and other Dedicated Transports from Fast Attack choices and watch a disproportionate amount of whining vanish almost overnight.
Currently building up Dark Angels, but have also got thoughts of building up some other Imperial forces (Grey Knights and Imperial Guard mostly), partially as Allies and partially as their own armies.
I like the idea of fielding them as Battle Brothers and I'd be damn pissed if that was taken away!
As some have mentioned it's mostly FA Transports causing the problems here (even then, only particular ones. Nobody's complaining about Guardsmen piling into a Rhino or a Stormlord full of Terminators, for example) so just focus on that.
Actually Allies have been around since Day 1.
They got rid of them until Witch Hunters and th Inquisition first showed up.
I will keep it simple. I like Allies, it lets me do few things
Play with the Models/Units I like and if you have the right Group the 'Rule Of Cool" makes some combinations fun.
Grey Hunters in Valkyries. It was the only real way to get Air Mobile Space Wolves till the last Codex.
It also lets you go old school and let Guard take Land Raiders, Rhinos and Land Speeders.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
Ha! I like this post.
But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
Ha! I like this post.
But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.
Except fluffwise, there are also specially modified pods and equipment allowing for non-Marines to ride down in pods.
So, again, remove them from Fast Attack and be done with it.
Eldar and Imperium Battle Brothers.
Eldar and Dark Eldar Desperate Allies.
Tau and Imperium Allies of Convenience.
Dark Eldar and Chaos Allies of Convenience.
Remove ability to use each other's transport. It makes no sense to have Guardsmen inside a Drop Pod. They will get pulverized on impact.
Those are all the things I have to say about this one.
Actually Allies have been around since Day 1.
They got rid of them until Witch Hunters and th Inquisition first showed up.
I played 3rd-5th and don't remember anything remotely resembling the current allies system. So maybe the old is new again. Anyway the point was to give context for my perspective. When I played, allies as currently implemented was not a thing.
One unit from this codex giving abilities to a different unit from a different codex that were never intended to have said ability is definitely not. And IMO, is the main problem with the entire game right now.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.
However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.
However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.
And how much should they pay for that ability? Likewise, Newton's laws and all, they should take a D hit back
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.
However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.
And how much should they pay for that ability? Likewise, Newton's laws and all, they should take a D hit back
I'd be okay with that. Losing a Drop Pod for killing or almost killing something bigger and badder.
That said, I'd just word the special rule as preventing anything not in PA, AA, or scout armour from using the pod.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well since the OP thinks my Cult/Skitarii dont deserve to be allies.
To hell with the OP I say.
Yes, it's obviously the OP's fault that GW split Admech into 2 books as an obvious cash-grab.
It's must also be OP's fault that the War Convacation is split into three books
I only have a problem with BB. I personally feel that you should only be BB when you have the same faction between detachments.
Yeah, they could've easily put all the Admech stuff into one book.
And I'm not against keeping Allies in general, because some of them make sense. But at the very least, remove the ability to use eachother's transports. I know that sucks for armies like Sisters, and it makes Skitarii less viable, but the way I see it's two sides of a scale. Either, the army functions with it's book as it's supposed to be, whether good or bad for the army, or they utilize things not in their codex and become abusive as hell. I want to remove the "abusive as hell" portion of that scale. Also, remove "Come the Apocalypse". Or make it so that rule only applies in games larger than 2500+ or so.
Honestly, I'm actually happy with Mechanicus being two different books.
It has let me spot the people whose only awareness of my Skitarii is what they've read online.
I played a game with pure Skitarii and had someone telling me that they read on 1d4chan that Skitarii had Knights and Grav weaponry(they don't--it's the White Dwarf formation allowing those to be part of it) and asking me why I wasn't using Canticles.
But don't worry. I expect GW to loosen the army structure even more in the next edition. I'll really be surprised if the FOC and CADs are in it. 8th will be a free for all with some formations thrown in to sell underpowered units.
But don't worry. I expect GW to loosen the army structure even more in the next edition. I'll really be surprised if the FOC and CADs are in it. 8th will be a free for all with some formations thrown in to sell underpowered units.
Oh gawd I hope not. I'd probably quit at that point.
nudibranch wrote: Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:
Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Orrrr...
Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.
The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.
However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.
And how much should they pay for that ability? Likewise, Newton's laws and all, they should take a D hit back
That would be fair. I was planning on dropping them empty anyway and walking my girls up the board to clean up the pieces.
Of course, as the candidate of Big Codex the op would support positions that benefit the top tier. This is as a time when the powerful armies are getting more powerful (elder, space marines, necrons) and the weaker armies are getting weaker (dark elder, grey knights, blood angels). Wake up, folks! The mid-tier is disappearing!
Vote for me and I will increase point tax on the top-tier (did you know a necron wraith pays less in points than a bullgryn?) while keeping the options open for the low-tier.
I play Inquisition so I am a candidate that can relate to the allied players.
Allies helped contribute to me running from the game. It was one thing when tiny ass codexes like witch hunters and demon hunters existed with extreme control over ally size, but the "do whatever you want" attitude has brought out the true TFGs. It would be different if it was only fluff bunnies running from multiple books for a theme, but you instead get people looking for the most powerful obscure combo ever.
timetowaste85 wrote: Allies helped contribute to me running from the game. It was one thing when tiny ass codexes like witch hunters and demon hunters existed with extreme control over ally size, but the "do whatever you want" attitude has brought out the true TFGs. It would be different if it was only fluff bunnies running from multiple books for a theme, but you instead get people looking for the most powerful obscure combo ever.
Yup, pretty much every time I see allies in an army, it's to cover a capability gap or exploit a synergy, not to run a fluffy force. The sole exception of late being AdMech stuff that should have been the same army to begin with
timetowaste85 wrote: Allies helped contribute to me running from the game. It was one thing when tiny ass codexes like witch hunters and demon hunters existed with extreme control over ally size, but the "do whatever you want" attitude has brought out the true TFGs. It would be different if it was only fluff bunnies running from multiple books for a theme, but you instead get people looking for the most powerful obscure combo ever.
Yup, pretty much every time I see allies in an army, it's to cover a capability gap or exploit a synergy, not to run a fluffy force. The sole exception of late being AdMech stuff that should have been the same army to begin with
Harlequins and Assassins, too. They aren't playable, really by themselves (definitely not assassins).
And Blood Angels are only playable without allies in games that aren't hypercompetitive win lists. Dark Eldar are only marginally better (or marginally worse, depending on how you look at it). Which must be why my two favorite factions of late are Blood Angels and Dark Eldar.
I voted to keep the Allies Matrix because all of my armies are Battle Brothers. Sure I've got enough of each to field a full army but if I want to get silly and run a big dumb Imperial Jamboree list I can.
Lets just face it that you can come up with a logical if not fluffy reason why one faction would ally with another (save maybe inquisition and …. well everything)
I mean some alliances make sense. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar seem like a natural alliance. Seing as the DE are sometimes mercenaries. they should be able to ally with almost anybody. Not to mention there are canon examples where Tau allied with Necrons and Dark Eldar allied with tau. (in both cases the tau were screwed over, but thats beside the point)
I see no reason why a group of stern guard can't be lead by St Celestine out of a drop pod. or why some dark eldar wouldn't hijack a wave serpent for there own purposes.
Some armies cough* SoB * cough should be allowed to use a drop pod if they want to. And as far as I know the Eldar have access to the web way same as the DE so it stands to reason that they would have access to a web way portal of one sort or another.
Some of the players we meet will be TFG or WAAC kind of people. Well in that case roll up your sleeves put on your big boy (girl) pants and Melta the crap out of their Lord of skulls.
Some of the players we meet will be TFG or WAAC kind of people. Well in that case roll up your sleeves put on your big boy (girl) pants and Melta the crap out of their Lord of skulls.
Do you HONESTLY think a WAAC would use a Lord Of Skulls?
Some of the players we meet will be TFG or WAAC kind of people. Well in that case roll up your sleeves put on your big boy (girl) pants and Melta the crap out of their Lord of skulls.
Do you HONESTLY think a WAAC would use a Lord Of Skulls?
Sorry what i meant ( melta the crap out of the center piece of their army) Lord of skulls was just an example.
And yes. yes i do think a WAAC person playing chaos would use a Lord of skulls, Be'Lakor, A bunch of hell drakes, And An'Grath. All in an unbound list of course
Alcibiades wrote: A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.
Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).
But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.
I want to exalt this. . .
BrianDavion wrote: suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.
My Tau FSE with Culexii support say, 'Hi!' They are desperate allies, but this doesn't really matter as they should never get close to one another.
Actually Allies have been around since Day 1.
They got rid of them until Witch Hunters and th Inquisition first showed up.
I will keep it simple. I like Allies, it lets me do few things
Play with the Models/Units I like and if you have the right Group the 'Rule Of Cool" makes some combinations fun.
Grey Hunters in Valkyries. It was the only real way to get Air Mobile Space Wolves till the last Codex.
It also lets you go old school and let Guard take Land Raiders, Rhinos and Land Speeders.
Perhaps we should go back to a similar system to those suggested in the WH\DH books? something like - take what you want but only a CAD's worth?
luky7dayz wrote: I would say change it, but if i use FSE and normal tau i want them to be able to share transports
I don't care about transports. I want there to be no invisible for the units I want to shoot at. . .
Mavnas wrote: This thread is a vile attempt by Xenos-sympathisers to cripple the forces of the Imperium.
Anyway. I voted for remove BB, and I'm shocked, shocked that so few went with that particular option. With the removal of BB, allies would no longer be able to use each other's transports, and we wouldn't need to worry about a return to things like Taudar.
Perhaps we should go back to a similar system to those suggested in the WH\DH books? something like - take what you want but only a CAD's worth?
Honestly, as an Imperial player, I'd be fine with this. I got into the Hobby back in 3rd and with Witch Hunters no less (and yes I know starting with Witch Hunters was a bad idea, no need to remind me). When I run allied detachment it's generally within a battleforged structure. Admittedly this isn't hard when all of my armies are Battle Brothers but to me it just seems incoherent otherwise. At my LGS we'll do four or five weeks of open, unstructured play between multi-month leagues and campaigns which often have a narrative element. Even with the lore of my forces acting as a coherent battlegroup it still feels "not right" to just throw my Lamenters Chaplain in with my Skitarii. Why would he be there alone? The Skitarii don't care about any of his incantations and oratory. However a Chaplain with a few tactical squads and maybe an assault squad with some Skitarii on the fringes seems more reasonable. They're on hand to do Skitarii stuff while the Lamenters are on hand to stab people and do silly things with pistols.
So I'd be fine with a more rigid allied system, because I'm already using a self-enforced one and doing fine with it.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
Of course, as the candidate of Big Codex the 
