The general accepted universal truth is that all Xenos are worthless filth without exception. Xenos, even intelligent and "advanced" (in their own twisted way) races such as the craftworld Eldar or the space-trading Demurig despite their heretical technology and so-called art and culture have nothing to offer humanity. Even greater is that all Xenos are a clear and direct threat to humanity and should be exterminated on sight. This is not "murder" even of Xenos civilians, woman, and children as Xenos by their very definition are inhuman or more accurately sub-human and therefore cannot be considered "a real person". It is akin to more like slaughtering pigs or animals - Tau or Eldar might display sophisticated human-like self-determination. human-like art, culture, trade, and diplomacy but it is a lie and they cannot be considered to have real human behaviour as by definition they are inhuman.
All "inalienable" rights such as that of existence comes from the divine holy Emperor - that much is not in question - hence the irrefutable logic that Xenos have no right to live since their rights do not come from the Emperor. Hence the IoM systematic extermination of Xenos races in the Milky Way galaxy within their power as the Emperor himself envisioned it - the final solution. It is also not in question that Xenos pose a clear and direct threat to the Imperium esp. Tyranid creatures and Chaos Daemonic entities and the fallen humans that worship them which is why they must be exterminated but even more allegedly peaceful Xenos such as the craftworld Eldar and Tau systems should also be exterminated or the very least enslaved to use their labour or for very least for later controlled managed extermination.
However.
How do you answer the question that the Xenos existed BEFORE the Emperor? If all rights come from the emperor than who gave those rights before the Emperor was born? Does that not imply that there was a creator of the universe before the emperor and the Xenos were created by the creator just like humanity? I am not questioning the Emperor's holy divinity but that the Xenos may have an equal right to existence given to them by someone else. Hence, if we accept they have the right to exist we should conclude that the Imperium does not need to go out of our way to exterminate them as Xenos have at the bare minimum the same right to exist as animals and non-sentient beings. Animals such as pigs or goats are farmed and cultivated for human benefit (and consumption) in this fashion I believe we enslave the Xenos or at least the ones that are enslavable (such as Eldar, Tau, Vespids, Demurig, Kroot) as opposed to the uncontrollable ones (such as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) to make life better for humanity. Instead of extermination fleets we should send out slaver fleets to Tau/Kroot/Exodite Eldar worlds and force them to serve humanity. Call me a humanist for sparing the Xenos.
Of course at your own risk, then there is the discussion that Xenos actually have EQUAL rights to humanity. This is a clear violation of the Imperial Cult and the inquisition will be extremely interested in your opinion should you choose to question the supremacy of humanity and humanitarianism. If we accepted this revolutionary concept then we must conclude we can work, trade, and even live with other Xenos that does not pose a direct immediate threat to us such as the Eldar, Tau, etc. That means we could even work together against our common enemies while of course being on the lookout for any Xenos betrayal. This is extremely heretical.
The plain truth is that going after non-immediate threatening Xenos such as random craftworlds (which are heavily defended and extremely hard/impossible to catch) or attacking Demurig tradeships at random or attacking otherwise peaceful Kroot planets for the sole and only purpose of exterminating them is an extreme drain on resources and obviously the Xenos will retaliate against Imperial aggression. Killing/Exterminating for its own sake is an end in and of itself - this is not blood for the blood god. We are not Chaos Daemon worshippers. This simple fact alone I feel means we should at least leave the somewhat peaceful Xenos the feth alone and focus on the clearly and immediately dangerous ones such as the Tyranids,.
Slap some cuffs in my wrists, but if we were to work with xenos for a greater cause, we could conquer the big hitters like nids and chaos a whole lot easier. Does this mean let them go unpunished for crimes against humanity? No, let them hang if they try and fight us, but a more tau based approach of peace first, then shooting could be useful.
2BlackJack1 wrote: Slap some cuffs in my wrists, but if we were to work with xenos for a greater cause, we could conquer the big hitters like nids and chaos a whole lot easier. Does this mean let them go unpunished for crimes against humanity? No, let them hang if they try and fight us, but a more tau based approach of peace first, then shooting could be useful.
Once humanity tackles the Tyranids and Chaos we could always exterminate the Tau and Eldar afterwards too if we decide to. We would have used them for humanity that way.
Humanity doesn't have the time or the resources to accurately assess the intentions of xenos. Their true nature could lie hidden by deceit, or change over time. Zero tolerance is truly the only way to guarantee safety.
For every potential xenos ally, there is one that would destroy, enslave, or consume. Make no mistake, even the so called 'civilized' Eldar would sacrifice every man, woman, and child before one of their own. The Tau would slaughter us for not bending the knee to their twisted castes.
The ONLY priority a human should have is the survival and prosperity of their fellow humans. If humanity dies, EVERYTHING humans ever accomplished would be for NOTHING. This is unnacceptable. Our right to survival has been bought with the blood of countless heroes and innumerable martyrs, it is more valuable than all xenos species combined. Humanity thrives because of her vigilance.
Let us take a similar stance as the 'wise' Eldar, then, and crush every single xenos before risking a single one of our brothers and sisters.
Purge the alien.
EDIT: What qualifies as a xenos? Would a livestock equivalent from planet s8r4-567 count and require purging? Just curious how the Imperium classifies foreign life.
Which Xenos encountered thus far has not attempted to harm humanity?
The Eldar (both kinds) despise and kill/enslave humans.
The Necrons want to eradicate humans.
The Tyranids want to eat humans.
The Tau and their allies want to assimilate and rule over humans.
The Orks want to fight humans.
In short, no race of Xenos has any desire to peacefully coexist with humanity, they all desire either our demise or slavery. Furthermore, while one might object that these are all large xenos civilizations bear in mind the example of the Tau, who grew from an insignificant stone-age culture to a threatening empire that is now at war with the Imperium of Man, a war they started. Until a Xenos race is encountered that desires to serve Man, then all should be assumed hostile and exterminated lest an oversight grow into a mortal threat.
Depends on a lot of factors.
Which inquisition, what you're doing with this viewpoint, and who you are to begin with.
Rogue Traders for example, have freedom to trade with xenos in some sectors.
If you're an average imperial citizen standing in the street explaining to others how xenos would be great friends, on the other hand...
Philosophically speaking, they should be left alone until they attack human holdings.
Practically speaking, that would change nothing, because those little green bastards are constantly attacking human holdings and need to be taught a lesson.
To be Unclean; That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Impure; That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Abhorred; That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Reviled; That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Hunted; That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Purged; That is the fate of the Xenos
To be Cleansed; For that is the fate of all Xenos
Not taking into account silly emotions and delusions like the "right to life" of sentient life (no such thing exists), aliens, if ever encountered, would be considered competition for our niche unless they were so wholly alien that our ecosystems and needs did not overlap (like a silicon life form from Star Trek that noms on crystals).
As they are in direct competition for our evolutionary niche and the resources that we require (presuming they're Humanoid like most pop culture xenos), kill them unless they offer something beneficial for humanity. But if they have nothing to offer us or we've extracted everything we may have to gain, exterminate.
You do not survive by allowing competition in life to flourish. You stamp it out either by assimilating it through interbreeding with their population or wiping them out with force. Humanity is built upon the corpses of rival species.
Buttery Commissar wrote: An amenable xeno is a sentient resource... Potential information, learnable strengths and even more expendable than guardsmen.
There's also the saying, "The enemy of my enemy..."
Is still my enemy, because it's an omnicidal death machine.
And /his/ enemy is /also/ my enemy,, because it's an incorporeal manifestation of evil.
Wyzilla wrote: Not taking into account silly emotions and delusions like the "right to life" of sentient life (no such thing exists), aliens, if ever encountered, would be considered competition for our niche unless they were so wholly alien that our ecosystems and needs did not overlap (like a silicon life form from Star Trek that noms on crystals).
As they are in direct competition for our evolutionary niche and the resources that we require (presuming they're Humanoid like most pop culture xenos), kill them unless they offer something beneficial for humanity. But if they have nothing to offer us or we've extracted everything we may have to gain, exterminate.
You do not survive by allowing competition in life to flourish. You stamp it out either by assimilating it through interbreeding with their population or wiping them out with force. Humanity is built upon the corpses of rival species.
Not sure if this post is "in character" or not, but humanity is definitely not built upon the corpses of rival species. Homo sapiens sapiens absorbed all rival subspecies (Neanderthals, etc.) through interbreeding, ate the large/awkward stupid species until there were none left (mammoths, giant sloths and the like) and incorporated the more intelligent and useful species into our lifestyles as biological machines (horses, dogs, cats back when they were necessary for pest control.) We are much more like the Tyranids than you realize.
The species that we eradicated are simply gone. But the ones that became useful to us are what matters, because we would be nothing without them. Without horses we would have never developed any nation larger than the Aztecs' little confederation of city-states. Without dogs we would have become extinct before we figured out how to make a bow and arrow.
Meanwhile our true rivals in terms of consumption and environment-altering prowess (ants, cockroaches, mosquitoes, fungi, weeds) are still beyond our ability to control or eradicate. We "coexist" with them whether we like it or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: as for the Imperium of Man, I hear they have alien orangutans making weapons for them.
Wyzilla wrote: Not taking into account silly emotions and delusions like the "right to life" of sentient life (no such thing exists), aliens, if ever encountered, would be considered competition for our niche unless they were so wholly alien that our ecosystems and needs did not overlap (like a silicon life form from Star Trek that noms on crystals).
As they are in direct competition for our evolutionary niche and the resources that we require (presuming they're Humanoid like most pop culture xenos), kill them unless they offer something beneficial for humanity. But if they have nothing to offer us or we've extracted everything we may have to gain, exterminate.
You do not survive by allowing competition in life to flourish. You stamp it out either by assimilating it through interbreeding with their population or wiping them out with force. Humanity is built upon the corpses of rival species.
Not sure if this post is "in character" or not, but humanity is definitely not built upon the corpses of rival species. Homo sapiens sapiens absorbed all rival subspecies (Neanderthals, etc.) through interbreeding, ate the large/awkward stupid species until there were none left (mammoths, giant sloths and the like) and incorporated the more intelligent and useful species into our lifestyles as biological machines (horses, dogs, cats back when they were necessary for pest control.) We are much more like the Tyranids than you realize.
I didn't mean purely hominids. Wherever humans go, we destroy simply as a byproduct of existence or hunt down and slaughter the biggest and meanest megafauna on the block. What couldn't be tamed we killed. What threatened us we exterminated with the aid of climate change (Paleolithic Americans were so badass they apparently would hunt down the American Lion as prey).
The species that we eradicated are simply gone. But the ones that became useful to us are what matters, because we would be nothing without them. Without horses we would have never developed any nation larger than the Aztecs' little confederation of city-states. Without dogs we would have become extinct before we figured out how to make a bow and arrow.
Yes, but the amount of domesticated species is utterly miniscule to the amount of life we destroy. Hell humanity is currently living in a new period of mass extinction largely created by itself.
Meanwhile our true rivals in terms of consumption and environment-altering prowess (ants, cockroaches, mosquitoes, fungi, weeds) are still beyond our ability to control or eradicate. We "coexist" with them whether we like it or not.
We could easily eradicate such species if funding was put behind such projects. The problem is that much like with chemical agents like Agent Orange or DDT... what would be the cost for doing so?
Purge the xenos with flame and fury! Let none of their foul kin defile the universe with their deranged ways! Mankind is the only race fit to populate the galaxy
If they're intelligent and willing to coexist in some way, whether thats integration or segregation, there's no need to kill them. Tau and possibly new Necrons would be here, although they'll need to stop with certain activities towards humans to ensure any succesful alliance.
If they're not willing to co-exist and they want to exterminat humans, such as Orks, Tyranids, or Rak'gol then yeah, exterminate them when they become a direct threat, but don't go out of your way to kill ALL of them at once, just the one's that are an immediate problem(eg: focus on exterminating Tyranids before you exterminate the Orks).
Kill all Eldar on sight! They're an exception to the above rules.
The Tau merely wish for all to serve the galaxy's Greater Good.
They'll even provide drone labor so that you won't die slaving in a mine or Forge World.
Freedom to live a short, oppressive life under human masters doesn't seem preferable to living a long, freer one under the Tau.
By the way, they'll kill you if you refuse to join and serve their empire. Hardly "freedom." Let me toil in a mine with my own kind, keep your petty creature comforts.
The Tau merely wish for all to serve the galaxy's Greater Good.
They'll even provide drone labor so that you won't die slaving in a mine or Forge World.
Freedom to live a short, oppressive life under human masters doesn't seem preferable to living a long, freer one under the Tau.
By the way, they'll kill you if you refuse to join and serve their empire. Hardly "freedom." Let me toil in a mine with my own kind, keep your petty creature comforts.
This is the most depressing poll I've ever seen on this site. I can't even tell if its meant to be humorously in character or actually genuine. Are we genuinely debating whether or not a thinking, living, sapient entity doesn't start invested with rights like we do? And must first behave in a proscribed manner before they are disavowed of these? Is the racism in this fictional setting really so necessary and thrilling to people that they actually feel the need to ask if a living, sapient entity inherently doesn't have a right to live?
And don't bring up Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and such. Nobody argues that everybody has to take a stand and wipe these people out. Even the Tau Empire has a stance of absolute annihilation against them. The question here which needs to be answered is about the hundreds of other species we are told exist who are wiped out down to their last child often because of nothing more than greed. Why stop at xenos. Some humans who don't make the Imperium's classification of 'human enough' are treated the same. So we are in agreement that this is right? That we should kill every man, woman and child? Every innocent civilian? Every father seeking to protect their children? Every sister and brother playing together?
And stop acting like the Imperium is a perpetual victim. As if Orks and Tyranid have only threatened humans. As if the setting hasn't made clear multiple times that mankind without need or provocation often wipes out entire alien civilizations simply for not being human.
Why does it matter if I, here, was born with wings or with a different phenotype to you or anyone else? Is that what determines if I have a right? Am a 'person' as most major philosophers would say. My biological composition is all that matters? You judge whether something should live based off this? Off whether or not it is human? At what point was it rationally established that mankind should have rights? Why does one group automatically accrue these rights over another? It's just...just...so...I can't even describe how sad it is. So I suppose most here support that anytime a human polity encountered, in our real history, a polity who couldn't militarily defeat them they were entitled to genocide them for their resources? After all that is what the Imperium does if it can, regardless of whether or not the Xenos in question are legitimate targets (Orks, Tyranids and such) or not. Just kill it because it is not us. That's it. How nuanced.
Gosh its like the genocide in Rwanda, mothers and sons and brothers and daughters pulled screaming into the open from their homes, hacked into bloody bits, raped to death whilst mobs of baying people watched and jeered and cheered, justifying their actions on the basis that their victims were threatening their economic and social status, that they deserved it, and refusing to accept a contrary view, calling them names like cockroach and filth, degrading them so that they could distance themselves from the entities they were killing by denying them status as 'persons'. I remember those words and the ones used here and...its...its...indescribable the feeling. So much death and pain and torture justified. Without even recognizing that if we were a planet in their universe but simply populated by aliens who peacefully got along without seeking to genocide all our neighbours the Imperium, if it could, would still kill every last one of us, drag us and our families and loved ones from our homes and kill us whilst cheering it. Our children would be shot to death, even babies with no recognition of the experience about them, would be shot before our eyes if not more gruesomely finished off.
As for the people who keep ragging on the Tau due to an isolated incident of sterilizing in a game of questionable mainstream canonicity to many; do you forget what the Imperium has done to peoples and worlds it has conquered? That the Tau do wrong, like all hegemons, is an indisputable fact but in no way absolves the Imperium of its many, and far worse, crimes.
And to those who justify the position of denying something rights on the basis of the threats of the Orks and such species; no-one is arguing that a species in which every individual member of the species non-stop attempts to murder you must be stopped, but that's far removed from asking whether by inherent point any xenos deserves no rights.
To those who talk of mankind wiping out species in its growth; yes...and? Because something is or was the case does not mean it should be the case. That is an enormous fallacy. Simply because we have done something wrong for a long time, perhaps even always, does not mean that it becomes right. If anything it becomes something to critically examine and change. This also misses that since we have recorded history mankind has been responsible for the extinction of species we deem 'non-sapient' and thus this does not inform us or create a bar from which to judge how we have or would treat species we deem to be 'sapient'.
If my answer is not clear enough then to leave no room for ambiguity; Should Xenos have the right to exist? OF COURSE. Whether it is green with eight eyes or made of the colour blue does not change whether or not it deserves to have rights. There are humans who would kill me as readily for my resources and my beliefs as any alien. I wish we could move past seeing things in terms of 'species' instead of 'persons'. This is so sad.
I agree with you, FaceTurnedAway. IRL, if there were sentient aliens, we should start with the assumption that they have rights to live and to have a fair standard of living.
DORIAN GRAY: So, I'd like everybody to vote in this poll I ....
DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA
SISTER KORIANDER: What was all that about?
SISTER RAVEN: Some guy was asking people to "vote." Killed him on the spot for heresy.
SISTER KORIANDER: Oh. Vote for what?
SISTER RAVEN: Dunno, didn't listen that long. Does it matter?
SISTER KORIANDER: No, not really. Let's burn his corpse and go for coffee.
SISTER RAVEN: Coffee, awesome.
You can't use IRL examples of historical genocides because they were against fellow humans. Xenos are aliens they don't have the same feelings, emotions, and thinking that we do. They are "the other".
If Humanity has the power to travel space, conquer, and enslave lesser races for our benefit we should. There is no question of morality because morality only applies to other humans. Humanitarianism is a beautiful thing.
And No, this is NOT because the Imperium is an inherent Fascist repressive brutal aggressive religious totalitarian society it is what god (I guess the Emperor is god 2.0) intended it for it to be. It is humanity's destiny to live in the milky way galaxy over all others because god intended it to be so.
FaceTurnedAway I'm pretty sure that most people were answering the poll in character given the amount of sarcastic comments and where referring to the primary xenos races that you said to ignore.
The comments about human growth and species competition are worrying though.
DorianGray wrote: You can't use IRL examples of historical genocides because they were against fellow humans. Xenos are aliens they don't have the same feelings, emotions, and thinking that we do. They are "the other".
If Humanity has the power to travel space, conquer, and enslave lesser races for our benefit we should. There is no question of morality because morality only applies to other humans. Humanitarianism is a beautiful thing.
And No, this is NOT because the Imperium is an inherent Fascist repressive brutal aggressive religious totalitarian society it is what god (I guess the Emperor is god 2.0) intended it for it to be. It is humanity's destiny to live in the milky way galaxy over all others because god intended it to be so.
This is in character right? Because the fluff has been pretty clear that 'God 2.0' was a massive self obssesed idiot who really had no idea what was best for humanity. The xenophobic attitude of the Imperium has doomed it to never achieve peace and from a xenophobic viewpoint has doomed it to not be able to focus on fighting one major threat at a time and seriously limited the number of allies it has (which it desperately needs).
If anything Tau are one's most similar to the Nazis with all the advanced technology, nationalist socialism, aggresive expansion despite peace treaties and (cannon or not) sterilisation camps.
Space marines are like the Waffen SS and Nazi superhuman projects.
Nazis exterminated sub-humans and lesser races as a point of duty like Poles, Jews, gypsies etc. I don't think Tau do that since they use a host of other Xenos like Vespids Kroot Humans in their armies.
DorianGray wrote: Space marines are like the Waffen SS and Nazi superhuman projects.
Nazis exterminated sub-humans and lesser races as a point of duty like Poles, Jews, gypsies etc. I don't think Tau do that since they use a host of other Xenos like Vespids Kroot Humans in their armies.
The Waffen SS was not the elite fighting branch of the Wehrmacht like many think. They were, or at least were supposed to be, the most Nazi-fied branch though with the amount of foreign volunteers this wasn't always true. There were elite W-SS divisions like 1st LSSAH or 2nd Das Reich but the W-SS as whole weren't more elite than their Heer counterparts. I would say the closest analogue to W-SS in the Imperium would be the Imperial Guard. Highly indoctrinated, variably skilled and equipped.
Also, the Nazis exterminated certain groups out of twisted political and cultural ideologies. The Imperium exterminates Xenos species out of necessity. Xenos have proven to be hostile, evil beings all throughout the galaxy. The peaceful ones interested in coexisting with the Imperium are few and far inbetween. The Xenophobic attitude that most Imperial citizens have has it's origins in centuries of alien oppression, extermination and even consumption of humans.
So, no. In the GrimDark future Xenos should be used if useful and exterminated when they are not. They can and would do the same to mankind if they were given the chance.
The Nazis worked longside many other nations such as Italy and Japan, as well as originally wanting to ally with Britain and Russia. They only went after Poles, Jews and Gypsies because they were minorities and easy targets.
The Tau are described as treating many of the races they take in, including humans, as second class citizens. While the death camps and sterilisation camps are non-cannon in the DOW games, it isn't too far a stretch to assume that they force humans and other races into Ghettos like the Nazis did.
I respect your conscientious response, but you might be taking this a little too seriously. We are talking about comically violent aliens in a comically violent future. Most of these responses are in character.
Fear not, fellow wargamer, basic empathy is not dead for all dakka users
Fun thought experiment though - what cost is 'too high' for the survival of humanity?
The above really just sounds like butt-hurt Imperial fanboys annoyed at how people always say IoM is genocidal Nazi Germany / Stalinist Russia and try to use non-cannon fluff out of a video game to try and paint the Tau as worse than the Imperium in an attempt to justify their support for the Imperium.
When the new Tau Codex comes out and the fluff talks about how the Tau governs not-so-brutally and works/governs with other Xenos for their common purpose these fanboys will have their asses handed to them.
They just can't get over how there are better good guys then the humans in the 40k universe.
When the new Tau Codex comes out and the fluff talks about how the Tau governs not-so-brutally and works/governs with other Xenos for their common purpose these fanboys will have their asses handed to them.
Don't kid yourself - the IoM is not good by any stretch, but the Tau still arrive and demand, "join us or die."
Signet-Powers wrote: If anything Tau are one's most similar to the Nazis with all the advanced technology, nationalist socialism, aggresive expansion despite peace treaties and (cannon or not) sterilisation camps.
The Imperials are the one with the specifically genocidal policy, The Tau are more like 19th-century Britain,
They're obviously partly patterned on the Nazis. It's part of the dystopian elements. There's also a lot of Stalin. The Imperium is supposed to be evil, though this has been toned down over the years as GW goes for a more child-friendly atmosphere. In fact it is the "cruelest regime imaginable."
GW threw the Nazis, Stalin-era Soviets, the Dark Ages and a bunch of other elements into a blender.
DorianGray wrote: The above really just sounds like butt-hurt Imperial fanboys annoyed at how people always say IoM is genocidal Nazi Germany / Stalinist Russia and try to use non-cannon fluff out of a video game to try and paint the Tau as worse than the Imperium in an attempt to justify their support for the Imperium.
When the new Tau Codex comes out and the fluff talks about how the Tau governs not-so-brutally and works/governs with other Xenos for their common purpose these fanboys will have their asses handed to them.
They just can't get over how there are better good guys then the humans in the 40k universe.
I was pointing out that Tau are closer to the Nazis, I never said that the IOM are better. They aren't. Humanity in 40K is far worse than Tau and anything bad the Tau has done doesn't compare to the amount of times the Imperium has done the same thing butfar worse.
The Imperium is similar to the Nazis in that the Imperium commits genocide and has heavy Furher/Emperor worship propaganda, but that's about it. Many other nations in History were closer to the Imperium than the Nazis such as the Stalinist Soviet Union, British Empire, Christianity during the Crusades, etc...
Signet-Powers wrote: If anything Tau are one's most similar to the Nazis with all the advanced technology, nationalist socialism, aggresive expansion despite peace treaties and (cannon or not) sterilisation camps.
The Imperials are the one with the specifically genocidal policy, The Tau are more like 19th-century Britain,
They're obviously partly patterned on the Nazis. It's part of the dystopian elements. There's also a lot of Stalin. The Imperium is supposed to be evil, though this has been toned down over the years as GW goes for a more child-friendly atmosphere. In fact it is the "cruelest regime imaginable."
GW threw the Nazis, Stalin-era Soviets, the Dark Ages and a bunch of other elements into a blender.
The Nazis didn't have a genocidal policy, just a segregation policy. The Nazis toldbeveryone that rhe Ghetties gave Jews better lives and was for their own good, when actually they were starving them and worse. They commited Genocide in secret, nobody knew about the death camps until the end of the war.
The Imperium on the other hand is shameless and goes into battle shouting from loudspeakers about how they're going to murder their enemies because they can. This is closer to what Russia did. They went on mass purgings of Religious people, used human wave tactics and had Commissars.
Except most of the bad things humanity has done in 40K is in the name of protecting humanity, which makes it "good". The Tau aren't human, and so are therefore automatically "bad".
Anyone who tries to apply real-world socio-political beliefs to comments centered around a game that coined the phrase "Grimdark", where everyone is a hate-fueled murder-machine all the time is... really missing the point of fiction, and might be having difficulty separating reality from fantasy.
That said... purge the Xeno, the Emperor commands it.
Psienesis wrote: Except most of the bad things humanity has done in 40K is in the name of protecting humanity, which makes it "good". The Tau aren't human, and so are therefore automatically "bad".
Anyone who tries to apply real-world socio-political beliefs to comments centered around a game that coined the phrase "Grimdark", where everyone is a hate-fueled murder-machine all the time is... really missing the point of fiction, and might be having difficulty separating reality from fantasy.
That said... purge the Xeno, the Emperor commands it.
Except there are constantly repeated similarities between that fictional faction and the real life faction it's based on, speciffically the evil actions committed by both. Saying that "most of the bad things that humanity has done in 40k is in the name of protecting humanity" is itself a socio-political judgement. 40k fluff is filled with moral judgements and justifications, all fiction is filled with politics and social jugments.
Unless you only watch Tellytubbies, avoiding real life socio-political beliefs in fiction is impossible.
DorianGray wrote: You can't use IRL examples of historical genocides because they were against fellow humans. Xenos are aliens they don't have the same feelings, emotions, and thinking that we do. They are "the other".
If Humanity has the power to travel space, conquer, and enslave lesser races for our benefit we should. There is no question of morality because morality only applies to other humans. Humanitarianism is a beautiful thing.
And No, this is NOT because the Imperium is an inherent Fascist repressive brutal aggressive religious totalitarian society it is what god (I guess the Emperor is god 2.0) intended it for it to be. It is humanity's destiny to live in the milky way galaxy over all others because god intended it to be so.
This is in character right? Because the fluff has been pretty clear that 'God 2.0' was a massive self obssesed idiot who really had no idea what was best for humanity. The xenophobic attitude of the Imperium has doomed it to never achieve peace and from a xenophobic viewpoint has doomed it to not be able to focus on fighting one major threat at a time and seriously limited the number of allies it has (which it desperately needs).
How dare you disrespect the Allfather?? I'll have you skinned and give you to a novice as a loincloth.
Selym wrote: I agree with you, FaceTurnedAway. IRL, if there were sentient aliens, we should start with the assumption that they have rights to live and to have a fair standard of living.
Psienesis wrote: Except most of the bad things humanity has done in 40K is in the name of protecting humanity, which makes it "good". The Tau aren't human, and so are therefore automatically "bad".
Anyone who tries to apply real-world socio-political beliefs to comments centered around a game that coined the phrase "Grimdark", where everyone is a hate-fueled murder-machine all the time is... really missing the point of fiction, and might be having difficulty separating reality from fantasy.
That said... purge the Xeno, the Emperor commands it.
Except there are constantly repeated similarities between that fictional faction and the real life faction it's based on, speciffically the evil actions committed by both. Saying that "most of the bad things that humanity has done in 40k is in the name of protecting humanity" is itself a socio-political judgement. 40k fluff is filled with moral judgements and justifications, all fiction is filled with politics and social jugments.
Unless you only watch Tellytubbies, avoiding real life socio-political beliefs in fiction is impossible.
The thing is with the 40k universe is that it is so far removed from our own reality it is difficult to project our own sense of morality on it and not miss the realities of the situation. The Imperium is not an ignorant, xenophobic state because the High Lords command it. It is that way because to do otherwise would damn mankind to a certain death. Alien life in the 40k galaxy is extremely hostile and often savage in nature. To know things beyond the Emperor and your own station could doom your world to a daemonic invasion. To tinker with technology in an attempt to rediscover lost knowledge would end disastrously. To allow the toiling citizens in the manufactorums respite from their constant work would mean that the Imperial Guard would not get the necessary supplies to fight their battles and thus leading to the entire populace of a besieged world to die a horrible death.
In this way, our sense of morality is incompatible with the Imperium's current state of affairs.
Selym wrote: I agree with you, FaceTurnedAway. IRL, if there were sentient aliens, we should start with the assumption that they have rights to live and to have a fair standard of living.
Unless we meet Tau. They can all die in a fire.
There is no such thing as a right to life.
It exists as a human concept, and starting with it will cause fewer human-related problems than not.
There be a reason I say "start with".
Wait for the aliens to have popular opinion turn against them, and then go on as usual. Once you have a precedent, there will be few complaints about killing aliens.
I think Demosthenes' Hierarchy of Foreignness (Enders Game series) puts it best. It is a means of classifying how "alien" an individual is relative to a subject. It is organised in five tiers:
Utlanning
Utlanning are individuals who are of the same species as the subject, and are from a different region, city, or country. Culture is similar, communication between subject and Utlanning is generally easy.
Framling
Framlings are individuals who are recognised as being of the same species as the subject, but who are from another planet. Culture and manners between Framlings may be different, but they are still similar.
Raman
A raman is an individual recognised as a sentient being who is of another species, but with whom communication is possible. In Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide, the Piggies and the Buggers are identified as true raman although in the original bugger wars they were considered as Varelse by humans.
Varelse
The varelse are true aliens: they are sentient beings, but are so foreign that no meaningful communication is possible with the subject. Only war with Varelse is justified.
Djur
Djur are non-sapient beings. They are capable of independent thought and action, but their mode of communication cannot relay any meaningful information to the subject because the djur itself lacks the capacity for rational thought and self-awareness.
So for someone who lives on Terra:
Utlanning: A person who lives on Terra, but in a different location (for example North America and Eurasia).
Framling: Someone from Catachan or Cadia.
Raman: Eldar or Tau. We can communicate with them, and if we tried could co-exist with them.
Varelse: Tyranids. While one could claim that individual Tyranids may not be sentient, the Hive Mind itself is. It also utterly alien and there is no way to have peace.
Psienesis wrote: Except most of the bad things humanity has done in 40K is in the name of protecting humanity, which makes it "good". The Tau aren't human, and so are therefore automatically "bad".
Anyone who tries to apply real-world socio-political beliefs to comments centered around a game that coined the phrase "Grimdark", where everyone is a hate-fueled murder-machine all the time is... really missing the point of fiction, and might be having difficulty separating reality from fantasy.
That said... purge the Xeno, the Emperor commands it.
Except there are constantly repeated similarities between that fictional faction and the real life faction it's based on, speciffically the evil actions committed by both. Saying that "most of the bad things that humanity has done in 40k is in the name of protecting humanity" is itself a socio-political judgement. 40k fluff is filled with moral judgements and justifications, all fiction is filled with politics and social jugments.
Unless you only watch Tellytubbies, avoiding real life socio-political beliefs in fiction is impossible.
The thing is with the 40k universe is that it is so far removed from our own reality it is difficult to project our own sense of morality on it and not miss the realities of the situation. The Imperium is not an ignorant, xenophobic state because the High Lords command it. It is that way because to do otherwise would damn mankind to a certain death. Alien life in the 40k galaxy is extremely hostile and often savage in nature. To know things beyond the Emperor and your own station could doom your world to a daemonic invasion. To tinker with technology in an attempt to rediscover lost knowledge would end disastrously. To allow the toiling citizens in the manufactorums respite from their constant work would mean that the Imperial Guard would not get the necessary supplies to fight their battles and thus leading to the entire populace of a besieged world to die a horrible death.
In this way, our sense of morality is incompatible with the Imperium's current state of affairs.
That's a political judgement. Even with a modern day sense of reailty, you can judge that humanity needs to do what it does or that it doesn't need to do what it does. In the 40k the environment changes but the human morals stay the same. 'Do what we need to do to survive.' 'sacrifice one life to save many' 'don't murder those who don't need to be murderd' etc...
As an example, it isn't impossible for us to judge that an Imperial Commander who has his men run, human wave style, at a heavily defended fortification because he doesn't want to wait for the tank regiment to turn up and share the glory is a very bad person. Alternatively if he had them charge the fortification because he had no choice, we can judge that it was the right thing to do.
Psienesis wrote: Except most of the bad things humanity has done in 40K is in the name of protecting humanity, which makes it "good". The Tau aren't human, and so are therefore automatically "bad".
Anyone who tries to apply real-world socio-political beliefs to comments centered around a game that coined the phrase "Grimdark", where everyone is a hate-fueled murder-machine all the time is... really missing the point of fiction, and might be having difficulty separating reality from fantasy.
That said... purge the Xeno, the Emperor commands it.
Except there are constantly repeated similarities between that fictional faction and the real life faction it's based on, speciffically the evil actions committed by both. Saying that "most of the bad things that humanity has done in 40k is in the name of protecting humanity" is itself a socio-political judgement. 40k fluff is filled with moral judgements and justifications, all fiction is filled with politics and social jugments.
Unless you only watch Tellytubbies, avoiding real life socio-political beliefs in fiction is impossible.
The thing is with the 40k universe is that it is so far removed from our own reality it is difficult to project our own sense of morality on it and not miss the realities of the situation. The Imperium is not an ignorant, xenophobic state because the High Lords command it. It is that way because to do otherwise would damn mankind to a certain death. Alien life in the 40k galaxy is extremely hostile and often savage in nature. To know things beyond the Emperor and your own station could doom your world to a daemonic invasion. To tinker with technology in an attempt to rediscover lost knowledge would end disastrously. To allow the toiling citizens in the manufactorums respite from their constant work would mean that the Imperial Guard would not get the necessary supplies to fight their battles and thus leading to the entire populace of a besieged world to die a horrible death.
In this way, our sense of morality is incompatible with the Imperium's current state of affairs.
Couldn't current governments use this argument today to pretty much justify anything?
Imagine the US uses the threat of ultra-nationalist Putin controlled Russia, Communist-controlled billion+ man China, and fanatical muslim terrorists to say we must pursue uncontrolled merciless war against people all the time. We MUST kill X or Y WILL happen. Let's nuclear bomb North Korea including all their civilians because otherwise they will nuke us, same with Russia, let's put all Chinese-Americans in camps because they are secretly loyal to Beijing and spying in our universities. Anyone who is not with us is against us.
You can use any artificially constructed reality you want to justify pretty much anything in the name of self-preservation.
Hence the Imperium must commit genocide often and frequently or we will collapse and humanity is doomed -- when in reality the Imperium is making things worse by losing any allies it could have (because automatically all and any Xenos are born automatically hostile wanting to murder humans written in their DNAs... right...) and pursuing a human supremacist ideology. Sure if you shoot any Xenos on sight even if they merely wanted to trade with you (aka. Demurig ships) then yes people will hate you.
40k is made up of real-world fluff, it is a massive cop-out to say "oh 40k is so far from reality, their actions are justified" We must commit genocide every time or we're toast. O_o
Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
It's kinda like a mother bear and her cubs. You mess with them, and she'll kill every human she faces from that day on. Ain't nobody got time to check if you're hostile or not. By the time negotiations and stuff are set up, a Tzeentch cultist hidden among the Xenos could blow it all up, and now you have to explain to your superior (or Emperor forbid, a SM Captain) why you let good men die instead of letting bad Xenos die.
urbanknight4 wrote: Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.
urbanknight4 wrote: Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.
If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.
urbanknight4 wrote: Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.
If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.
Who said anything about Necrons and Blood Angels. I'm talking about the Dark Angels (hence why I mentioned them) and the Watchers in the Dark.
As to the Necron/Blood Angel Bro-fest...they are co-operating because they must. Better the enemy you know then the enemy you don't.
urbanknight4 wrote: Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
It's kinda like a mother bear and her cubs. You mess with them, and she'll kill every human she faces from that day on. Ain't nobody got time to check if you're hostile or not. By the time negotiations and stuff are set up, a Tzeentch cultist hidden among the Xenos could blow it all up, and now you have to explain to your superior (or Emperor forbid, a SM Captain) why you let good men die instead of letting bad Xenos die.
Human beings are smarter than Bears and capable of reason, plus the Imperium has to look after far more than a few cubs. If you give up on negotiations after one cultist terrorist attack then you let the cultists win. You lose a few men? Sad but successful negotiations will prevent a war and save bmany, many, many times more.
urbanknight4 wrote: Last time we trusted a Xenos they tried to assassinate Lion El'Johnson and snuck a fething nuclear device on his starship. I bet having his son's life (and countless of his grandchildren's lives) threatened by a lying, scummy Xeno put a dent in Empy's confidence that they could trade.
And yet, the Dark Angels not only trust Xenos with some of their chapter relics, they also trust the same Xenos with the life of their Primarch.
If you're talking about the Necrons, that is absolute bs. How the heck are the Necrons cooperating with the Bloodies? What is this, the Magical School Bus? I still don't know how they're cooperating, but the fact that they're not killing each other on sight is absolute heresy.
Who said anything about Necrons and Blood Angels. I'm talking about the Dark Angels (hence why I mentioned them) and the Watchers in the Dark.
As to the Necron/Blood Angel Bro-fest...they are co-operating because they must. Better the enemy you know then the enemy you don't.
My bad, yo. Real ingenuity on GW's part, calling two companies after angels...
If the Imperium's ideology that all xenos were bloodthirsty monsters trying to destroy everyone else were true, then the Tau Empire could not exist. Because the members of the Tau Empire do not try to destroy everyone else; instead it is a colonial empire under control of the Tau in which the members assist each other. Thus the rationalization that the Imperium's genocidal ideology and policy is justified as self-defense is bull; the Tau don't have to do it. Not even the Dark Eldar do it.
The Imperium's ideology is just ideology. Quite obviously (as I mentioned) taken from the Nazis as part of GW's attempt to create a hellish dystopian future, in which they also added some of the more unpleasant aspects of the Soviet Union, Middle Ages Europe, the Renaissance, and other places/times.
The "kill the mutant" thing, the emphasis on genetic purity, is also very Nazi.
Alcibiades wrote: The "kill the mutant" thing, the emphasis on genetic purity, is also very Nazi.
The more mutated you are, the more exposed your mind is to the Warp. I'm sure you'd love hanging around with the Chaos Gods, but we don't care much for their company.
Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.
"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.
BlaxicanX wrote: Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.
"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.
IG With Gauss Flayers, for example.
And Baneblades with living metal.
And constructing orbital webway portals for fast interplanetary travel.
BlaxicanX wrote: Xenos have every right to exist as humanity. That's really the beginning and end of it.
"Rights" don't exist in nature. No living thing has the "right" to survive- only the will, at any cost. A more conducive way to phrase the question is "should the Imperium allow xenos to live, or attempt to destroy them", to which the answer is pretty much "yes, so long as doing so has no adverse effect on Humanity", simply because of the opportunity cost. It takes resources to destroy that could potentially be spent better elsewhere, and who knows what knowledge humanity is throwing away by destroying an alien culture instead of courting it.
IG With Gauss Flayers, for example.
And Baneblades with living metal.
And constructing orbital webway portals for fast interplanetary travel.
Well, we can still kill the Necrons, Eldar, and... Eldar... that own that tech and still lobotomize it to suit our purposes. Consider it killing two Xenos with one stone.
I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.
I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.
Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.
I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.
Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.
Is exterminating Xenos, even ones that pose no threat or generally do not attack humans (e.g. Eldar) considered murder?
Eldar not attacking humans? Bro. They would kill your firstborn child, and everyone's firstborn child if it saved the life of a single elf. They do not care about humans at all, and are not good allies. They are to be tolerated, but in the face of their selfishness we will value humans over them.
Everyone else can die because ain't nobody got time to figure out if you're good or not. If you think you do, you're not working hard enough.
Eldar would but they don't generally go out of their way to attack human planets wholesale unless there some future prophacy that unless human colony X is destroyed craftworld Y is doomed....
We have good reason to exterminate. They're a dead race. They can't afford to have our policies. Besides, their tactics themselves show their nature. Guerrilla tactics. Hit and run. They're not gonna be like the Imperium. They're on the lam.
Any attempt to find peace with the Eldar would be ruined by the Dark Eldar. Humans would demand the Dark Eldar stop with the raids, they'd refuse and the craftworld Eldar would refuse to see reason and side with the Dark Eldar.
I disagree with you. Here in the US - you get in big trouble for violating someone else's right to life. Humans most definitely bestow this right upon one another.
Here on Earth, you mean. Murder is generally frowned upon by everyone.
Is exterminating Xenos, even ones that pose no threat or generally do not attack humans (e.g. Eldar) considered murder?
The definition of murder is one human killing another, according to law. When a dog kills a human, it is not prosecuted for murder. It may, however, be put down.
When a human kills a dog, they are still not prosecuted for murder, rather, they are either prosecuted for damaging someone else's property, or for violating animal rights.
Animal rights did not exist as a legal function until fairly recently, when we decided to be nice to other species.
"Xenos Rights" would not exist until specific laws are passed, meaning a human could, in theory, go unpunished for the rape, pillage or murder of an alien species, should they be /not/ considered a form of animal, under animal rights.
They may, however, face repercussions from the xenos, or from retroactive laws, or from social outrage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: NB: They could be very easily arrested if this happened in the UK, for "disturbing the peace". And could then be prosecuted under those sets of laws.
Never forget the Imperium is a theocracy. Religious dogma takes precedence over reasonable thought always. Reason leads to doubt and doubt leads to heresy, therefore reasonable people invariably fall to Chaos and are heretics. Burn reasonable people on sight. The only kind of thought the Imperium tolerates is blind, unquestionable religious dogma.
The Imperium would destroy xenos rather than work with them against a common threat. Murdering xenos is not just acceptable, it is the sacred duty of every human.
Of course, in chaotic situations on the ground, some Imperial commanders in rare circumstances temporarily work together with xenos (primarily Eldar) if both face a common, even greater threat. This is just being pragmatic, and only done when completely necessary to achieve objectives, but even that is already pretty dangerous and regarded as heretical by the more zealous elements of the Inquisition and Ecclessiarchy. Many Imperial commanders would die before cooperating with xenos. So, while Imperial commanders as individuals can be pragmatic, the Imperium as a whole is incredibly dogmatic and inflexible, and because of that there is no chance they would work with xenos on any official level.
@zgort: Certainly I could be taking this too seriously, I won't deny that at all, but I've been playing this wargame having fun with friends, family and acquaintances and everyone understanding that the factions of the setting, most of them including the Imperium, are all horrifically evil institutions and no one tries to justify racism. I was shocked to find so many people on the internet seeming to genuinely believe and try with all their might to justify a xenocidal and absolutely racist policy against innocents within that fictional setting. It frightens and disturbs me to think someone could actually think to themselves that, for example, the Imperium are the justified in how they treat innocent alien races. It frightens me that a person could have so prejudiced a worldview that they feel the need to vent themselves against an imaginary 'other' in a fictional setting. It horrifies me because of what real humans do in the name of real prejudices, justified on virtually the exact same grounds, in history. It is worrying how much it parallels the development and build-up to genocides and hate crimes in the real world. Worst is that it isn't wholly ironic. Regardless I am probably taking it too seriously but...having had a personal experience with this sort of stuff I can't help myself from overreacting, and I do apologize for that.
Also for people arguing that we can't judge 'aliens' like humans because they are too 'alien', well, in the actual field of philosophy the issue of whether we can even relate one human to another, understand each other, is still a divisive issue. The issue of the 'other' is hardly a solved predicament in human philosophy and we even have thought experiments that advance that we might encounter alien life more similar to some of us then we are too humans. We can't even begin to predict how relatable a sapient species besides ourselves would be too ourselves, we have no data with which to make such a prediction at all. They might be so similar its hard to distinguish or so different it's impossible to communicate. Either way we cannot simply disqualify them for not being 'human' since that raises the major philosophical issue of whether or not different humans can relate to each other. 'Othering' is something we have and still do to each other all the time.
Also I don't get. and never did, why Imperium players like me online hate the Tau or feel the need to disparage the Tau constantly? Its just bizarre how almost universally online Imperium fans hate the Tau. I don't get why anyone would hate any faction. Regardless the people who keep saying Tau treat everyone as second-class citizens; the first thing to understand is that the Tau hegemony is, without a doubt, still an unequal place. That's a fact. The Tau do have preferential treatment within their own Empire and even amongst the Castes there is a 'first among equals'. But to compare the way humans who joint he Tau willingly are treated to the many slave-level and worse conditions millions of citizens of the Imperium themselves experience is ridiculous. In Taros the Tau treat the Imperium subjects relatively well, the book even explicitly says better than they would be treated by the Imperium. In the Damocles Anthology we even have a short story following a Human soldier with the Tau and his friendship with a Water Caste member. Said short story even has the human articulate, very well, that the Tau aren't some universally benign species since inevitably they compel compliance by force. At the same time the story makes no bones that his treatment is largely equitable and even has the Tau commander at one point ask him to never feel shy about offering her advice since he would know human thought better than her anyway. So the definition of second-class citizen, whilst something I would still technically agree with since non-Tau are certainly not given the pre-eminent status the Tau are within the Empire, still misses the fact that they are treated far better than almost any other hegemon in the galaxy. Not even worth comparing how the Imperium often treats its own. In addition to this another short story even provides that Tau permit the members of the Empire to continue any practices they wish (such as Kroot) so long as they don't contravene the Greater Good. They are appealing to races, even humans, in the fluff for a reason. Stripping them of it in order to turn them into a straw man diminishes their role as a mirror reflecting the galaxy's state back at it.
Also just because something isn't 'human' doesn't mean its bad or wrong. I don't even begin to understand what the rational argument for 'not human=evil' would be and highly doubt any major or reputable philosopher would agree with reasoning such as that.
Then when people argue that 'trusting xenos hurt Lion and such' do they forget how badly the Interex were screwed for their gesture to the Imperium? Do they forget that the harm aliens have done to the Imperium pales in comparison to the harm humans have unleashed upon themselves in the setting? Mankind has practically always in the fluff been its own most dangerous foe, from Heresy to Black Crusades, with Chaos behind it. Not aliens. If anything more effort should be focused cooperating to oppose Chaos.
Also the idea that the Craftworld Eldar can't be co-existed with is weird. The rulebooks themselves have stated before that if the Imperium bothered to research they'd find that the Craftworlds more often help them than not. Not to say the Craftworld Eldar are 'good' by any stretch, majority of them are also completely bigoted donkey-caves. But that doesn't change the fact that the two races could definitely learn to cooperate with each other and peacefully coexist if both, importantly it takes both, groups made the effort too do so. Eldar also do not always try to kill humans. Indeed a Biel-Tan Autarch even peacefully resettled humans colonists off a Eldar World and onto a moon and saw to it that no harm would come to them so long as they remained on the moon.
I don't even know why I bothered though, this is the internet, hate of something different will always beat out anything else.
Sounds like reading text on the internet depresses you. I encourage you to believe everything you read on the internet.
I'm gonna agree with those that point out that there is no such thing as a 'right to live' in the natural order of the universe. It's a human invention that we sometimes apply towards those humans we favour while happily letting the rest perish. It's a fantasy to make those who are making decisions feel a semblance of power. The cold hearted uncaring nature of the universe doesn't give a rat's ass about this so called 'right to live'. It's up to the living themselves to fight hard and keep living or join groups with similar values to survive with the benefits of numbers. We can pretend we are civilizing ourselves with intangible inventions but we can't civilize reality.
I love 40k and philosophy and stuff, but yo... I wouldn't write an essay about it.
Its easy, mate. We're not hateful because we're space nazis. We're hateful because, like I (and a handful of other loyal Imperials) have been saying, the only way to fully guarantee that an alien race won't mess us the feth up after signing a peace treaty is to wipe them out in the first place.
Its an imperfect policy, and has cost us a large amount of allies, but it works. If our bloated bureaucracy took on the whole "find out if these dudes are legit" shtick, government would grind to a halt. There is literally no time to waste. Chaos corrupts entire species, and we can't afford to let a single corrupted within our empire.
The only way I'd consider allying with a xenos is if they have a blatant hate for Chaos, like the Eldar and the Tau. We would need to wipe out the DE, but if the CE don't mind, we should be fine. The Harlequins can help, etc. As long as the Tau never again threaten us, we won't destroy them. Simple.
Xenos are hard to decipher. Even my Tau and Eldar solution might not work since the Tau want to take over stuff and the Eldar are super secretive jerks. That's why we kill everything. Better loose a barrage of bolter shells than suffer a multitude of headaches later when the Eldar decide they don't need humans anymore.
Robbert Ambrose wrote:Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
urbanknight4 wrote:
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
My brother. Let us get our bolters and cleanse the heretics and xeno scum from this thread.
In the Name of the God-Emperor (Our Undying Lord), amen to that.
If we don't exterminate them first, the xenos will exterminate us. If the choice is between death to xenos or a return to the Old Night, it seems to me the choice is clear. The xenos have wasted any right to live by murdering and enslaving mankind.
Freshfaceduser I never said I hated Tau. I actually quite like the tau. Just because I view their aggresive expansionism and mis-treatment of minorities as not being particularly nice, doesn't mean I dislike them as a faction. I won't deny that there are many players who have an irrational hatred of the Tau but I'm not one of them.
That being said, to demand someone to view the Tau faction as the good guys because they claim they're doing it for the "Greater good." is no different than demanding someone to view the Imperium's genocide as good because the Imperium says it's justified.
Signet-Powers wrote: Freshfaceduser I never said I hated Tau. I actually quite like the tau. Just because I view their aggresive expansionism and mis-treatment of minorities as not being particularly nice, doesn't mean I dislike them as a faction. I won't deny that there are many players who have an irrational hatred of the Tau but I'm not one of them.
That being said, to demand someone to view the Tau faction as the good guys because they claim they're doing it for the "Greater good." is no different than demanding someone to view the Imperium's genocide as good because the Imperium says it's justified.
I view all sides as evil, and rank them thusly:
Most evil at the top, least evil at the bottom:
-Kayoss (It's also the 2nd, 3rd and 4th through 666th)
-Necrons (Obviously)
-Dark Eldar (At least you can have a conversation while you're wtf-tortured)
-Spess Mehreenz (Uber Nazis in Spehss)
-Eldar (Arrogant, backstabbing, future-knowing bastards)
-The Puny 'Umiez (I just wanna live! EXTERMINATUS FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!)
-Tau (Orwellian lying space-fish-cows)
-Orkz (Orkz just wanna have fun)
-Tyranids (They're only hungry)
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
Xenos are worthless filth without exception. Xenos, even intelligent and "advanced" (in their own twisted way) races such as the craftworld Eldar or the space-trading Demurig despite their heretical technology and so-called art and culture have nothing to offer humanity. Even greater is that all Xenos are a clear and direct threat to humanity and should be exterminated on sight. This is not "murder" even of Xenos civilians, woman, and children as Xenos by their very definition are inhuman or more accurately sub-human and therefore cannot be considered "a real person". It is akin to more like slaughtering pigs or animals - Tau or Eldar might display sophisticated human-like self-determination. human-like art, culture, trade, and diplomacy but it is a lie and they cannot be considered to have real human behaviour as by definition they are inhuman.
All "inalienable" rights such as that of existence comes from the divine holy Emperor - that much is not in question - hence the irrefutable logic that Xenos have no right to live since their rights do not come from the Emperor. Hence the IoM systematic extermination of Xenos races in the Milky Way galaxy within their power as the Emperor himself envisioned it - the final solution. It is also not in question that Xenos pose a clear and direct threat to the Imperium esp. Tyranid creatures and Chaos Daemonic entities and the fallen humans that worship them which is why they must be exterminated but even more allegedly peaceful Xenos such as the craftworld Eldar and Tau systems should also be exterminated or the very least enslaved to use their labour or for very least for later controlled managed extermination.
However.
How do you answer the question that the Xenos existed BEFORE the Emperor? If all rights come from the emperor than who gave those rights before the Emperor was born? Does that not imply that there was a creator of the universe before the emperor and the Xenos were created by the creator just like humanity? I am not questioning the Emperor's holy divinity but that the Xenos may have an equal right to existence given to them by someone else. Hence, if we accept they have the right to exist we should conclude that the Imperium does not need to go out of our way to exterminate them as Xenos have at the bare minimum the same right to exist as animals and non-sentient beings. Animals such as pigs or goats are farmed and cultivated for human benefit (and consumption) in this fashion I believe we enslave the Xenos or at least the ones that are enslavable (such as Eldar, Tau, Vespids, Demurig, Kroot) as opposed to the uncontrollable ones (such as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) to make life better for humanity. Instead of extermination fleets we should send out slaver fleets to Tau/Kroot/Exodite Eldar worlds and force them to serve humanity. Call me a humanist for sparing the Xenos.
Of course at your own risk, then there is the discussion that Xenos actually have EQUAL rights to humanity. This is a clear violation of the Imperial Cult and the inquisition will be extremely interested in your opinion should you choose to question the supremacy of humanity and humanitarianism. If we accepted this revolutionary concept then we must conclude we can work, trade, and even live with other Xenos that does not pose a direct immediate threat to us such as the Eldar, Tau, etc. That means we could even work together against our common enemies while of course being on the lookout for any Xenos betrayal. This is extremely heretical.
The plain truth is that going after non-immediate threatening Xenos such as random craftworlds (which are heavily defended and extremely hard/impossible to catch) or attacking Demurig tradeships at random or attacking otherwise peaceful Kroot planets for the sole and only purpose of exterminating them is an extreme drain on resources and obviously the Xenos will retaliate against Imperial aggression. Killing/Exterminating for its own sake is an end in and of itself - this is not blood for the blood god. We are not Chaos Daemon worshippers. This simple fact alone I feel means we should at least leave the somewhat peaceful Xenos the feth alone and focus on the clearly and immediately dangerous ones such as the Tyranids,.
Thoughts?
No, aliens do not have the right to live. Nothing has the right to anything. Everything must be earned in life. The filthy Xenos did not earn their existance, they stole it from the chunks of Mankind's galaxy. They must be purged.
@Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
You false dichotomy is disproven by the glory of the Greater Good.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: @Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
It's a game, dood. Calm down and praise the Emperor. I'm sorry the internet rustles your jimmies, but you're not really supposed to get depressed by something so trivial as this. I hope the Emperor finds it within his eternal compassion to grant you relief.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
You false dichotomy is disproven by the glory of the Greater Good.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Kill it with fire unless its a fire ant. In which case you C4 your house and move to Belize.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: @Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
I think you take the internet a bit too seriously. The world is already fethed up so much, the internet is a nice place by comparison.
The problem with your stance on this question is that you approach it with a 21st century viewpoint. Of course, from our point of view, if 40k were reality, the actions of the IoM are unforgivable and xenos definitely deserve to live. However, the humans of the year 40.000 don't have 21st century morals. From their point of view, killing xenos is good, and letting them live is actually an unforgivable sin. From our 21st century PoV, the reality (or fictional reality if you want to nitpick) of the 40th Millennium is not comprehensible. In the 40th Millennium, critical thinking leads to death and destruction due to the corrupting influence of Chaos. In a world where critical thinking is so dangerous, unflinching dogma evolved as a way for humans to survive. The same goes for xenos. Mankind has been backstabbed, attacked and enslaved by xenos so many times, the 'kill xenos on sight' dogma evolved as a survival mechanism. Of course, that nice xenos species that is so open for negotiation seems friendly and generous now, but how do you know you can actually trust them? Isn't this just a strategy to have you let your guard down so they can enslave your world? Mankind has had too many such experiences with xenos, and therefore has decided that ensuring self-protection by wiping out all the dangerous species weighs more heavily than the risk of wiping out genuinely friendly species. Better safe than sorry, right? The thing about good and evil is that good and evil really don't exist. It is all a matter of where you stand.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
You kinda just demonstrated a choice:
Choice A: Dig latrine
Choice B: Get shot
Then another one:
Choice A: Fight for glory and the Emperor
Choice B: Be a heretical traitor scum and get shot
It's a poor choice, but at least one they can make. If an Ethereal asks something, a Tau HAS to obey. They have no free will whatsoever, they can't even say they'd prefer death over tyranny because they HAVE to obey. I see no difference between the Tau drones and the Tau themselves.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
You kinda just demonstrated a choice:
Choice A: Dig latrine
Choice B: Get shot
Then another one:
Choice A: Fight for glory and the Emperor
Choice B: Be a heretical traitor scum and get shot
It's a poor choice, but at least one they can make. If an Ethereal asks something, a Tau HAS to obey. They have no free will whatsoever, they can't even say they'd prefer death over tyranny because they HAVE to obey. I see no difference between the Tau drones and the Tau themselves.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Okay by what standard?
Okay that I can live with it? Okay that other people will not object, and see it as reasonable?
Personally I don't think any of those are okay, but I have instinctually beamed a spider now and then.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
Lol. Look, the moment I can use your same line against you is he moment you need to reconsider your argument. No human's life is wasted. Everyone does their part. I fail to see how you don't understand that. Every servitor has a purpose, every worker a cog on the greater machine of mankind. What, you think that just because you have a pretty little philosophy you're enlightened? Your Ethereals are no more than glorified hypnotists. At least we don't have the gall to call ourselves gods. Only the Emperor can command absolute obedience, and even then... you can refuse him. You can kill his sons. You can wage war against him.
And he will still love you. Just like he loved Horus Lupercal. He had no intention of killing the great betrayer. Only when he saw he was about to die himself did he spare the galaxy of the terror. But he loved him.
Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Yes, just because its there. Its always okay to kill anything, as nothing is intricately important to some great cosmic plan. You won't be condemning the universe by stomping on the fether. Or hunting big game, or even murder. The only thing that should concern you when killing something is "what are the consequences?" Which in those scenarios, are insignificant, possibly endangering the species and ecosystem, plus jail, and immense heartache for the family, plus jail. If you can live with the consequences then go for it, but don't bring morality into something that existed long before humans even crawled out of the sea, killing.
Xenos are no different. Its okay to kill them because
-you're scared of it, they have dangerous skills and weaponry
-it wants/is stealinf your resources, planets, food, etc
- It's colony/Craftworld/Expanionism/tendril/tomb is infesting your house/galaxy
-its there. Its not human and a direct threat to humanity. So shoot it dead, Exterminatus their world, flamer to the remains and jettison the remains to the nearest star. Clear out their holdings, take everythinf useful for the Ad Mech to examine and determine if not-heretical enough to be used by Humanity, study the rest if they ever pop back up so easy kills.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Yes, just because its there. Its always okay to kill anything, as nothing is intricately important to some great cosmic plan. You won't be condemning the universe by stomping on the fether. Or hunting big game, or even murder. The only thing that should concern you when killing something is "what are the consequences?" Which in those scenarios, are insignificant, possibly endangering the species and ecosystem, plus jail, and immense heartache for the family, plus jail. If you can live with the consequences then go for it, but don't bring morality into something that existed long before humans even crawled out of the sea, killing.
Xenos are no different. Its okay to kill them because
-you're scared of it, they have dangerous skills and weaponry
-it wants/is stealinf your resources, planets, food, etc
- It's colony/Craftworld/Expanionism/tendril/tomb is infesting your house/galaxy
-its there. Its not human and a direct threat to humanity. So shoot it dead, Exterminatus their world, flamer to the remains and jettison the remains to the nearest star. Clear out their holdings, take everythinf useful for the Ad Mech to examine and determine if not-heretical enough to be used by Humanity, study the rest if they ever pop back up so easy kills.
I was going to wait until FTA replied, but here's my answers:
-It doesn't matter
-It doesn't matter
-It doesn't matter
-Why would you put it above your own survival?
-KILL IT WITH FIRE
An exception should be made with sentient creatures so that we can maintain the moral high ground when they try to feth us up.
Like with sentient robots, it's a matter of WHEN and not IF.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
Lol. Look, the moment I can use your same line against you is he moment you need to reconsider your argument. No human's life is wasted. Everyone does their part. I fail to see how you don't understand that. Every servitor has a purpose, every worker a cog on the greater machine of mankind. What, you think that just because you have a pretty little philosophy you're enlightened? Your Ethereals are no more than glorified hypnotists. At least we don't have the gall to call ourselves gods. Only the Emperor can command absolute obedience, and even then... you can refuse him. You can kill his sons. You can wage war against him.
And he will still love you. Just like he loved Horus Lupercal. He had no intention of killing the great betrayer. Only when he saw he was about to die himself did he spare the galaxy of the terror. But he loved him.
Can we say the same of your Ethereals?
Every man who died in the attack on Taros was wasted. The Imperium routinely spends the lives of millions attacking worlds they have no hope of capturing. It routinely wastes lives attacking fortified positions when it would be wiser to retreat and fight another day. As many have pointed out, the single most common resource- and thus the one with the least value- is human life. As I have stated, the Tau value drones- non-sapient machines- more than the Imperium values human life. Better manufacturing technology- like the Tau possess- would result in fewer deaths in industrial accidents. The Imperium lacks safety standards and adequate medical care for its masses because, ultimately, you are worth less than the raw materials that make up your home.
The Tau value humans more than that. They merely seek to free them from the squalor and oppression of the Imperium.
The Emperor's love apparently has not worked out particularly well for humanity. The Emperor loves you so long as you are willing to work in horrifying conditions or fight with obsolescent and obsolete weapons. His love means nothing if someone on the opposite side of your planet is found to be worshipping Chaos- your life will be sacrificed as if it was nothing.
"No man who has died for the Emperor has died in vain."
At the end of the day, the hallmarks of liberal democracy don't exist in 40K. This is a dystopian setting, where life is cheap, and a soldier is of less value than the weapon they carry, and civilians exist only to be exploited as labor to feed the machines of warfare, for there is only war.
Bill of Rights? Civil liberties? Right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Please. These things don't exist in 40K. They don't actually exist in reality, either, which is why we have to defend these rights.
Wyzilla wrote: Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
... that's probably because GW wants to sell models to children. Even the Chaos Gods fail to live up to the horrors of our modern world.
The Tau seek to free nobody. They just want more citizens to enslave using their mind control.
Guess who swells the ranks of the IG? Voluntary recruits. They choose to die for the Imperium. They choose to give their lives in human wave tactics.
I'm not gonna debate the Astra Militarum's tactics and strategies with a heretic. Humanity does what it does for humanity. If a human chooses not to follow orders, he is free to die for his disobedience. If a Tau wishes not to follow orders, an Ethereal orders him and the Tau loses his sense of will, obeying like a servitor. They cannot choose to die for their beliefs.
That's 1 planet out of 1 million. Even the Tanith First-and-Only were raised as a tithe of their world. Some of them volunteered, but not all did. The DKOK exist only to be Guardsmen. The people of Cadia submit 100% of their population to the Guard.
The Tanith First and Only were recruited from the planets Militia. Even then the enemy they were facing was enough of a real threat to justify conscription by a fair margin. Similarly if everyone on Cadia wasn't conscripted then Cadia would be overrun instantly. That isn't propaganda. DKOK uses recruitment techniques that are illegal even by the Imperiums standards but it doesn't follow up on it because it needs the manpower.
The fluff supports that the majority of planets don't even donate Guardsmen and that the majority that do provide tithes of Guardsmen usually provides them from the top 1% of the planetary defence force.
If you want unjustifiably excessive and brutal conscription, look at how every Fire Warrior is racially selected at birth, specially bred and raised to join the military, cannot leave the military and cannot think about anything else other than the military including so far as to have their sex drive completely killed.
Wow...its just so...amazing. The sheer desire and joy for genocide and racism is frighteningly disturbing. Utterly. I'm not responding after this again. If people want to celebrate racism, genocide, bigotry, fanaticism then I want no part of it. Especially when all its based on is lies told through teeth. How Kant, Hume, Hegel, Mills, Descartes and virtually every major work of widely read and supported philosophy on morals and ethics would be dismayed.
@urbanknight: It isn't trivial. It is utterly sickening. Its disgusting to ''other" someone and I have no idea why someone would even want to do it for fun in a fictional setting. Also Tau aren't mind controlled. Read some actual Tau books. Tau exercise Free Will all the time, otherwise the Farsight Enclaves couldn't even exist, and Yamamoto and Earth Caste Members who are openly written as disobeying direct orders but surviving and going on in Tau society would be impossible. Again you take an innuendo of a thing and draw it out because you need a straw man due to you inability to deal with the actual reality of the situation. Tau are far from oppressive as the Imperium since, for example, a group of humans who were being murdered by the Imperium due to practicing ancestor worship are allowed to continue this practice with no punishment once they joined the Tau Empire. This happened. It is a simply clear cut example. Additionally the Tau Empire didn't magically overnight become chaos infested who die because of it. For those who argue aliens should be exterminated or else they will kill humans, utter rubbish, the Tau have contacts and alliances with at least two species (Kroot and Tarellians) who consider themselves allies and none of these have killed each other or suffered for their working arrangement together. Nicassar and Demiurg too.
@Iron_Captain: Critical thinking doesn't automatically lead to Chaos. The Eldar Empire collapsed because it slid from inquiry to hedonism. Summed up nicely by Eldrad when he informs his apprentices that ceasing to inquire and ask questions generated the fall. The Tau Empire practices critical thinking skills in similar degrees to us and, to my knowledge, have suffered little to no Chaos corruption for it. The only attempt by Chaos to corrupt Tau I know; the Fire Warrior novelization, ended with Kais throwing off the Daemon's influence through reaffirmation thanks to Lusha that the journey is a worthwhile endeavor even if only a regulatory idea and the Ethereal being impossible to corrupt due to its self-awareness of its own emotions. As for you moral philosophy, that is pure relativism which is often thrown around today, if you want I can provide links to the enormous body of work arguing against it but I'm not going to distract myself by going into the details of that right now since that would be an essay of enormous length.
@Wyzilla: Ridiculous rosy image of the Imperium. Sources have described the populations of Forge Worlds as living as slaves and being treated as such. Numerous fluff sources, Shield of Baal and Ciaphas Cain to name two, have the Imperium Worlds suffer from extreme class discrimination by the higher class against the lower class. Religious persecution is a form of persecution as real as gender and race and it happens CONSTANTLY in the Imperium (Shield of Baal being another recent example). Again it is Aristotle's favorite fallacy as you insist that the Imperium can be no other way than how it is. Not to mention, yes, the Imperium is more oppressive than the Tau Empire, that's just been canonically said in books from Taros to the codex themselves.
@Seylm: You prescribe one extreme example and then draw it out to a general rule. I could also encounter an ant colony whilst walking down a road one day. It poses me no harm, I want nothing from it, hence I leave it alone and do not disturb it. The Imperium does not destroy races purely because they threaten them. The Tarellian Homeworld was annihilated as a matter of course, not due to a threat it posed. As you say though since none of this matters for sentient life forms I don't even know the point you are trying to make.
@Signet: Tau Fire Warriors don't have their sex drives killed, in the Fire Warrior novelization a commander even fantasizes over a female compatriot and wonders to himself hornily when he'll getting sex next. That being said your point still stands that a Caste Based system has glaring moral problems. Buts its ridiculous to ignore the frequent use of conscripted soldiers in the military of the Imperium, including horrific penal legions, simply to make yet another straw man argument against the Tau.
So done, don't care, hatred wins as always so we can embrace racism to its extreme. Hooray again for racism. I'd advise reading some of the world's major philosophers; Kant and such, if one wants a good read. Also...gee GW why did you make the Tau? Seemingly every player hates them and their apparently a horrible, evil 2-dimensional loser. Seriously makes me wonder what Tau Codex and books I have been reading too have missed all that.
This thread really has no place on a 40k board. It should be moved to off topic based off the fact that the OP takes this seriously with the notion that real life morals applies to 40k.
There is no philosophy in 40k, there is only survival, there is no right to life, you have to fight to live.
Here is a better prompt.
Why should real life morality be applied to 40k?
If you can answer that question, then this discussion actually may have a reason to exist.
Psienesis wrote: That's 1 planet out of 1 million. Even the Tanith First-and-Only were raised as a tithe of their world. Some of them volunteered, but not all did. The DKOK exist only to be Guardsmen. The people of Cadia submit 100% of their population to the Guard.
In contrast to the Imperium's use of humans as unwilling cannon fodder, during the Taros campaign humans were used largely in the rear to hold cities an d important locations while the Fire Caste (and their honorable Kroot allies) took most of the burden of throwing out the imperium's invasion force.
Quickjager wrote: This thread really has no place on a 40k board. It should be moved to off topic based off the fact that the OP takes this seriously with the notion that real life morals applies to 40k.
There is no philosophy in 40k, there is only survival, there is no right to life, you have to fight to live.
Here is a better prompt.
Why should real life morality be applied to 40k?
If you can answer that question, then this discussion actually may have a reason to exist.
Thank you. Jesus Christ, this is a discussion with half of the people taking it too seriously, and the other, myself included, speaking in character. If FaceTurnedAway doesn't want anything to do with this and gets constantly depressed over this, why is he even here? This forum is named after a manic killer race's catchphrase. This game coined a phrase that means eternal suffering worse than death. The motto of this game is "there is no peace, only eternal war."
You people forget this is a game. You want to debate about it, cool. But don't try to bring morals into it. They tried that last decade with videoganes and look where it got them. I don't care if the glorious Imperium rustles your jimmies. Its a great game and the fluff is interesting because everything sucks.
Thank you. Jesus Christ, this is a discussion with half of the people taking it too seriously, and the other, myself included, speaking in character. If FaceTurnedAway doesn't want anything to do with this and gets constantly depressed over this, why is he even here? This forum is named after a manic killer race's catchphrase. This game coined a phrase that means eternal suffering worse than death. The motto of this game is "there is no peace, only eternal war."
You people forget this is a game. You want to debate about it, cool. But don't try to bring morals into it. They tried that last decade with videoganes and look where it got them. I don't care if the glorious Imperium rustles your jimmies. Its a great game and the fluff is interesting because everything sucks.
Last decade? gak, they're STILL doing it, because a bitch tried to feth her way to positive press, got caught, and cried "sexism" when people demanded that the journalist she fethed be fired.
This is probably not the place to continue that discussion, but by Nurgle's rotten cock, we play games to ESCAPE the real world.
Some people need to remember that's the whole frickin' point.
@FaceTurnedAway, I'm starting to think you are trolling. This is a fictional world, where no one really gets hurt.
Please drop the drama act - some people are just having a good time immersing themselves in the FICTIONAL 40k universe. Just because you root for the IoM in this FICTIONAL world doesn't make you a monster. No one here (hopefully) is raping or killing anyone. I'd even go so far to say all of these posters are anti-rape AND anti-murder. So relax.
Also - we get it. You read philosophy. Fine, lovely, glad it makes you happy. No need to remind us any more.
Wow...its just so...amazing. The sheer desire and joy for genocide and racism is frighteningly disturbing. Utterly. I'm not responding after this again. If people want to celebrate racism, genocide, bigotry, fanaticism then I want no part of it. Especially when all its based on is lies told through teeth. How Kant, Hume, Hegel, Mills, Descartes and virtually every major work of widely read and supported philosophy on morals and ethics would be dismayed.
All of whom died some 38,000 years ago in the era of 40K. Their names, and their works, are lost and forgotten, never to be recovered.
So done, don't care, hatred wins as always so we can embrace racism to its extreme. Hooray again for racism. I'd advise reading some of the world's major philosophers; Kant and such, if one wants a good read. Also...gee GW why did you make the Tau? Seemingly every player hates them and their apparently a horrible, evil 2-dimensional loser. Seriously makes me wonder what Tau Codex and books I have been reading too have missed all that.
Hatred is the Emperor's gift to humanity.
The Emperor asks only that you hate.
@Wyzilla: Ridiculous rosy image of the Imperium. Sources have described the populations of Forge Worlds as living as slaves and being treated as such. Numerous fluff sources, Shield of Baal and Ciaphas Cain to name two, have the Imperium Worlds suffer from extreme class discrimination by the higher class against the lower class. Religious persecution is a form of persecution as real as gender and race and it happens CONSTANTLY in the Imperium (Shield of Baal being another recent example). Again it is Aristotle's favorite fallacy as you insist that the Imperium can be no other way than how it is. Not to mention, yes, the Imperium is more oppressive than the Tau Empire, that's just been canonically said in books from Taros to the codex themselves.
That the Imperium is more-oppressive does not make the Tau not-oppressive. It's not an on/off situation.
@urbanknight: It isn't trivial. It is utterly sickening. Its disgusting to ''other" someone and I have no idea why someone would even want to do it for fun in a fictional setting. Also Tau aren't mind controlled. Read some actual Tau books. Tau exercise Free Will all the time, otherwise the Farsight Enclaves couldn't even exist, and Yamamoto and Earth Caste Members who are openly written as disobeying direct orders but surviving and going on in Tau society would be impossible. Again you take an innuendo of a thing and draw it out because you need a straw man due to you inability to deal with the actual reality of the situation. Tau are far from oppressive as the Imperium since, for example, a group of humans who were being murdered by the Imperium due to practicing ancestor worship are allowed to continue this practice with no punishment once they joined the Tau Empire. This happened. It is a simply clear cut example. Additionally the Tau Empire didn't magically overnight become chaos infested who die because of it. For those who argue aliens should be exterminated or else they will kill humans, utter rubbish, the Tau have contacts and alliances with at least two species (Kroot and Tarellians) who consider themselves allies and none of these have killed each other or suffered for their working arrangement together. Nicassar and Demiurg too.
@Wyzilla: Ridiculous rosy image of the Imperium. Sources have described the populations of Forge Worlds as living as slaves and being treated as such. Numerous fluff sources, Shield of Baal and Ciaphas Cain to name two, have the Imperium Worlds suffer from extreme class discrimination by the higher class against the lower class. Religious persecution is a form of persecution as real as gender and race and it happens CONSTANTLY in the Imperium (Shield of Baal being another recent example). Again it is Aristotle's favorite fallacy as you insist that the Imperium can be no other way than how it is. Not to mention, yes, the Imperium is more oppressive than the Tau Empire, that's just been canonically said in books from Taros to the codex themselves.
That the Imperium is more-oppressive does not make the Tau not-oppressive. It's not an on/off situation.
The Tau Empire merely requests that humans pull their weight in accordance with the Greater Good. They need not die by the thousands as fodder, as the Imperium sends them to do. They may guard their homes and livelihood while the Fire Caste forges itself in battle. You may labor in mines, but by the Greater Good, drones shall do the most dangerous work. The Tau Empire does not ask you to throw your lives away. It only asks that you contribute to the Greater Good.
Evidently as you're going off the Fire Warrior books you're using a different point of view of the Tau than I am. I'm going off the codex and cannon fluff (ignore the comment I made earlier about gelding) which does state that the Tau engage in immoral activities such as racial conscription. The Black Library books favour whatever faction they're about and in the same way that Tau:FireWarrior describes the Tau as being the ultimate good guys, the Guant's Ghosts books describe the Imperium as doing only what's ultimately necessary.
Looking at the faction overall, the Imperium is obviously far worse, however it has a great amount of morral variety within it. There are countless worlds that undoubtedly conscript children to use as meat shields. This is abhorrent and unforgivable no matter what. At the same time there is undoubtedly countless worlds that conscript because its under constant attack by Chaos Marines and Orks, such as Cadia and Armaggedon. There are worlds within the Imperium where people live peaceful lives free from oppression such as on feral worlds, yet at the same time there are worlds were people are raised and die without ever having seen the sun because they're lives are so horrible. The Tau undoubtedly treat their citizens better than the worse parts of the Imperium, but there's going to be worlds invaded by the tau were the civilians were better off living under the Imperium. Maybe worlds like this are rare, but they exist.
I never made a strawman argument against the Tau either, I was responding to a comment that implied that the Tau don't use conscription. I was pointing out that they do. That isn't a strawman argument, If you're looking for a real strawman argument, see below;
Quickjager wrote: This thread really has no place on a 40k board. It should be moved to off topic based off the fact that the OP takes this seriously with the notion that real life morals applies to 40k.
There is no philosophy in 40k, there is only survival, there is no right to life, you have to fight to live.
Here is a better prompt.
Why should real life morality be applied to 40k?
If you can answer that question, then this discussion actually may have a reason to exist.
Thank you. Jesus Christ, this is a discussion with half of the people taking it too seriously, and the other, myself included, speaking in character. If FaceTurnedAway doesn't want anything to do with this and gets constantly depressed over this, why is he even here? This forum is named after a manic killer race's catchphrase. This game coined a phrase that means eternal suffering worse than death. The motto of this game is "there is no peace, only eternal war."
You people forget this is a game. You want to debate about it, cool. But don't try to bring morals into it. They tried that last decade with videoganes and look where it got them. I don't care if the glorious Imperium rustles your jimmies. Its a great game and the fluff is interesting because everything sucks.
" I agree that we shouldn't bring non-40k things onto a 40k website.. By the way I'm gonna force Gamergate into the debate for absolutely no reasonother than to create a fake morral highground for myself!"
Now FaceTurnedAway, see that? That's a real strawman argument right there.
Also for the record, I speak for no one else. If I support a rational point someone's made then it means I support that point, not that persons views on the Tau.
Evidently as you're going off the Fire Warrior books you're using a different point of view of the Tau than I am. I'm going off the codex and cannon fluff (ignore the comment I made earlier about gelding) which does state that the Tau engage in immoral activities such as racial conscription. The Black Library books favour whatever faction they're about and in the same way that Tau:FireWarrior describes the Tau as being the ultimate good guys, the Guant's Ghosts books describe the Imperium as doing only what's ultimately necessary.
Looking at the faction overall, the Imperium is obviously far worse, however it has a great amount of morral variety within it. There are countless worlds that undoubtedly conscript children to use as meat shields. This is abhorrent and unforgivable no matter what. At the same time there is undoubtedly countless worlds that conscript because its under constant attack by Chaos Marines and Orks, such as Cadia and Armaggedon. There are worlds within the Imperium where people live peaceful lives free from oppression such as on feral worlds, yet at the same time there are worlds were people are raised and die without ever having seen the sun because they're lives are so horrible. The Tau undoubtedly treat their citizens better than the worse parts of the Imperium, but there's going to be worlds invaded by the tau were the civilians were better off living under the Imperium. Maybe worlds like this are rare, but they exist.
I never made a strawman argument against the Tau either, I was responding to a comment that implied that the Tau don't use conscription. I was pointing out that they do. That isn't a strawman argument, If you're looking for a real strawman argument, see below;
Quickjager wrote: This thread really has no place on a 40k board. It should be moved to off topic based off the fact that the OP takes this seriously with the notion that real life morals applies to 40k.
There is no philosophy in 40k, there is only survival, there is no right to life, you have to fight to live.
Here is a better prompt.
Why should real life morality be applied to 40k?
If you can answer that question, then this discussion actually may have a reason to exist.
Thank you. Jesus Christ, this is a discussion with half of the people taking it too seriously, and the other, myself included, speaking in character. If FaceTurnedAway doesn't want anything to do with this and gets constantly depressed over this, why is he even here? This forum is named after a manic killer race's catchphrase. This game coined a phrase that means eternal suffering worse than death. The motto of this game is "there is no peace, only eternal war."
You people forget this is a game. You want to debate about it, cool. But don't try to bring morals into it. They tried that last decade with videoganes and look where it got them. I don't care if the glorious Imperium rustles your jimmies. Its a great game and the fluff is interesting because everything sucks.
" I agree that we shouldn't bring non-40k things onto a 40k website.. By the way I'm gonna force Gamergate into the debate for absolutely no reasonother than to create a fake morral highground for myself!"
Now FaceTurnedAway, see that? That's a real strawman argument right there.
Also for the record, I speak for no one else. If I support a rational point someone's made then it means I support that point, not that persons views on the Tau.
You must not have a calendar in your possession. I said a decade ago, not last year. A decade ago lawyers and worried parents were demonizing video games for being ultra violent and "corrupting" children to turn them into some sort of Terminator death machine. Exactly like Face is doing implying that 40K is desensitizing us to slavery, genocide, and unprovoked warfare while his high and mighty "look at me, I can pronounce Descartes" self is free from it.
All I'm saying is that it's a game. Calm the feth down, this discussion started out fun with all of us saying stuff in character and some providing cool solutions for working with Xenos. Then the morality police came in and ruined the party. I repeat, it's a game. There's no need to get upset over it. I can say "kill all the Xenos" but still be a good person because I basically condemned plastic to die. What a tragedy.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: [...]
@urbanknight: It isn't trivial. It is utterly sickening. Its disgusting to ''other" someone and I have no idea why someone would even want to do it for fun in a fictional setting. [...]
Now you're obviously trolling.
[Section about Tau > IOM]
@Seylm: You prescribe one extreme example and then draw it out to a general rule. I could also encounter an ant colony whilst walking down a road one day. It poses me no harm, I want nothing from it, hence I leave it alone and do not disturb it. The Imperium does not destroy races purely because they threaten them. The Tarellian Homeworld was annihilated as a matter of course, not due to a threat it posed. As you say though since none of this matters for sentient life forms I don't even know the point you are trying to make.
The point I'm trying to make is thus:
-If we can justify causing harm to an ant, why not a lizard. Why not then a mammal. Why not then a larger creature. Why not then a complex organism, such as a sentient /anything/.
-Your reaction of "must not harm ants indicates that its going to be many hours of anti-self-indoctrination before we can convince you that morals are not a fact, and are a figment of our imagination, developed by evolution to prevent us from wiping ourselves out.
-No general rule was made. Generalizations, yes, but no rules.
-I stated that we should apply morals in the first to sentient life forms, as they are the same threat as us to ourselves. They can play our game, and starting out gunz blazing is going to lead to problems.
-Once a sentient poses a threat, we follow the line of ant escalation until we come to the conclusion that it is only right to kill.
[Tau Porn]
[Doesn't understand the concepts of "Fiction", "Fantasy", "Dystopian", "Grimdark" or "In Character"]
Oh, I apoligise Urbanknight4. I saw the comment below yours about "bitch" and "cried sexism" and I assumed that when you said last decade you were reffering to the last ten years of games journalims or something like that.
Signet-Powers wrote: The Tanith First and Only were recruited from the planets Militia. Even then the enemy they were facing was enough of a real threat to justify conscription by a fair margin. Similarly if everyone on Cadia wasn't conscripted then Cadia would be overrun instantly. That isn't propaganda. DKOK uses recruitment techniques that are illegal even by the Imperiums standards but it doesn't follow up on it because it needs the manpower.
The fluff supports that the majority of planets don't even donate Guardsmen and that the majority that do provide tithes of Guardsmen usually provides them from the top 1% of the planetary defence force.
If you want unjustifiably excessive and brutal conscription, look at how every Fire Warrior is racially selected at birth, specially bred and raised to join the military, cannot leave the military and cannot think about anything else other than the military including so far as to have their sex drive completely killed.
Not possible for the Fire Caste to be prevented from breeding. They have to breed, otherwise there is no more Fire Caste. The castes of Tau society are sub-species of their parent race, and there's no "mingling" between the castes. If you are born into the Fire Caste, your parents were Fire Caste, their parents were Fire Caste, and so on.
Signet-Powers wrote: The Tanith First and Only were recruited from the planets Militia. Even then the enemy they were facing was enough of a real threat to justify conscription by a fair margin. Similarly if everyone on Cadia wasn't conscripted then Cadia would be overrun instantly. That isn't propaganda. DKOK uses recruitment techniques that are illegal even by the Imperiums standards but it doesn't follow up on it because it needs the manpower.
The fluff supports that the majority of planets don't even donate Guardsmen and that the majority that do provide tithes of Guardsmen usually provides them from the top 1% of the planetary defence force.
If you want unjustifiably excessive and brutal conscription, look at how every Fire Warrior is racially selected at birth, specially bred and raised to join the military, cannot leave the military and cannot think about anything else other than the military including so far as to have their sex drive completely killed.
Not possible for the Fire Caste to be prevented from breeding. They have to breed, otherwise there is no more Fire Caste. The castes of Tau society are sub-species of their parent race, and there's no "mingling" between the castes. If you are born into the Fire Caste, your parents were Fire Caste, their parents were Fire Caste, and so on.
They genetically suprress the sexual drive of all Tau until breeding is permitted, then it is reactivated. This is so they can control the birth rate. Otherwise Tau feel no strong sexual urges.
Signet-Powers wrote: The Tanith First and Only were recruited from the planets Militia. Even then the enemy they were facing was enough of a real threat to justify conscription by a fair margin. Similarly if everyone on Cadia wasn't conscripted then Cadia would be overrun instantly. That isn't propaganda. DKOK uses recruitment techniques that are illegal even by the Imperiums standards but it doesn't follow up on it because it needs the manpower.
The fluff supports that the majority of planets don't even donate Guardsmen and that the majority that do provide tithes of Guardsmen usually provides them from the top 1% of the planetary defence force.
If you want unjustifiably excessive and brutal conscription, look at how every Fire Warrior is racially selected at birth, specially bred and raised to join the military, cannot leave the military and cannot think about anything else other than the military including so far as to have their sex drive completely killed.
Not possible for the Fire Caste to be prevented from breeding. They have to breed, otherwise there is no more Fire Caste. The castes of Tau society are sub-species of their parent race, and there's no "mingling" between the castes. If you are born into the Fire Caste, your parents were Fire Caste, their parents were Fire Caste, and so on.
Guys. GUYS.
This sounds like the people from Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. In it, the inhabitants are separated into castes: the Alphas are the richest, the Betas are middle class, etc etc until we reach the lowest, the Epsilons, who act as forced labor.
That sound like somebody we know, right? Not yet. Listen up.
EVERY SINGLE CASTE IN BNW WAS HAPPY.
They were indoctrinated from birth with suggestive hypnotism and subliminal messages to accept their lot in life, the fact that they had been bred for their purpose, and even wish to remain in their place. Every Epsilon was born as a healthy embryo. Every Epsilon was injected with a chemical that would slow their growth and intelligence. Every Epsilon was indoctrinated in the great duty they would perform for humanity. And this is the message they heard every night in their cribs:
"I am happy to be an Epsilon. I wouldn't wish to be an Alpha. They have too many responsibilities. I'm glad I don't have to handle their work. I am happy to be an Epsilon."
I'm paraphrasing since obviously I didn't memorize the line, but you get the idea. What race does this sound like? A race that separates it's citizens by their occupations and then goes as far as straining them to be subspecies? A race that, even if you're a base worker tasked with a crappy job, remains happy knowing they're part of the greater good?
I'm not saying any names. Just throwing that out there
Um, yeah. What? You thought GW came up with something entirely original? I say LOL at you, sir... I say LOL.
40k doesn't have an original thought in its head, all of its elements come from other sources in fantasy, sci-fi, real-world events and so on and so forth, all played for parodies and laffs.
Just one thing that makes me prefer the IoM over the Tau is that Imperium for the most part is completely open on it's brutallity and what they hope to accomplish with it. They don't infect you with a sterility plague and let you belive you still have some purpose, they just tell you failed to serve the Emperor and put you in front a firing squad. See the Imperium genuinly knows and admits that it's harshness and ruthlesness are a necessity for the preservation of humanity and that there is no feasable alternative for the forseeable future.
Psienesis wrote: Um, yeah. What? You thought GW came up with something entirely original? I say LOL at you, sir... I say LOL.
40k doesn't have an original thought in its head, all of its elements come from other sources in fantasy, sci-fi, real-world events and so on and so forth, all played for parodies and laffs.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: ...Kant, Hume, Hegel, Mills, Descartes and virtually every major work of widely read and supported philosophy on morals and ethics would be dismayed.
To counter your claim all philosophers would dismay, Niccolò Machiavelli would approve of the imperial creed.
“And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince
Or perhaps you'd like something from Friedrich Nietzsche?
"Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied." - Friedrich Nietzsche
FaceTurnedAway wrote: ...Kant, Hume, Hegel, Mills, Descartes and virtually every major work of widely read and supported philosophy on morals and ethics would be dismayed.
To counter your claim all philosophers would dismay, Niccolò Machiavelli would approve of the imperial creed.
“And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince
Or perhaps you'd like something from Friedrich Nietzsche?
"Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Just one thing that makes me prefer the IoM over the Tau is that Imperium for the most part is completely open on it's brutallity and what they hope to accomplish with it. They don't infect you with a sterility plague and let you belive you still have some purpose, they just tell you failed to serve the Emperor and put you in front a firing squad. See the Imperium genuinly knows and admits that it's harshness and ruthlesness are a necessity for the preservation of humanity and that there is no feasable alternative for the forseeable future.
On the contrary, humanity has other options. Many humans have seen the wisdom of serving the Greater Good. The Tau do not sterilize humans- if they did, there would be no Gue'vesa from worlds captured prior to the Damocles Crusade helping in the 3rd Crusade.
Humans can serve the Emperor and the Greater Good. Most humans in the Tau Empire still worship him.
There's really not much to debate here. This is a dystopian setting, designed to subvert our expectations of virtue and honor, to take the worst traits of humanity, and its worst actions throughout history, turn them way up past 11, and then make those things the "proper" course of action.
If one takes umbrage at that... then I would posit that one is missing the point of 40K. There are no "good guys" here, from an objective standpoint. Even the "nicest" factions harbor significant darkness and engage in some pretty nasty behavior. Especially the Tau.
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
This is not a setting of black-and-white, simply variant shades of black.
Selym wrote: I get the feeling that the rest of the posts here are gonna just be in-character declarations of heresy, and the need for more fire.
May as well have it locked. We seem to have exhausted the debate anyway.
Humanity triumphs once again! Death to the xenos scum! Death to the traitor!
Ok, now that I got that out of my system, we should be bff's with the space elves. All we need to do is whack the Dark Eldar and we're good. The Tau can go to chaos for all I care.
And forces you to realise, that our current moral viewpoints don't always apply to everything.
"Thou shalt not kill" is fine 'n all, but a choice between that and death is a regular occurrence in this universe. So regular, that the default option has become "Thou shalt kill".
For a commentary on the internal policies of the Imperium, I've always been fond of the various artwork and such (mostly fan-made) of the Arbites with "Thou Shalt Not." emblazoned across it.
I've actually used that line in a Dark Heresy game when someone was praying real hard to the Emperor on whether or not they should make use of a certain artifact they found.
In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
However, it makes sense that a philosophy that suborns the rights of individuals to the Greater Good would have no problem accepting mass sterilization, even for whole populations. Replacing an unreliable population with a reliable one certainly would serve the Greater Good in the long run.
Any belief or philosophy, taken to it's illogical extreme, becomes tyranny in the end. The natural tendency of all societies is to enshrine their most dear beliefs as inviolate and unquestionable, and increasingly rejects other values as it moves toward that extreme. Therefore all societies slowly but naturally abandon common sense, tolerance and rationality and move inexorably to their illogical extreme. This is what Toynbee called 'the ephemeral ideal'. When the disconnect between the ephemeral ideal and reality, including human nature, becomes so jarring that it can only be maintained by force, a society has evolved into a tyranny. A tyranny suffers from internal opposition as well as external enemies. Therein lies the seeds of its destruction.
Neither the Imperium nor the Tau are different. That's part of why the 40k fluff is so poignant.
The Tau and the Imperium are different kinds of dystopias. If the Imperium is 1984/Hitler/Stalin/Torquemada, the Tau are Brave New World (which I suspect is actually one of the inspirations of the writers).
With caveat that depictions of the Imperium in the fluff vary a great deal. Abnettverse is much less dystopian (barely grimdark at all) than the Dark Heresy fluff, for instance.
Actually even in a real life setting the debate to whether non terran species have a right to life or a mass genocide approach is not as one sided as most 20th century westerners would imagine it to be.
By the very act of existing a non terran sentient species is always going to be a threat to the homo sapiens as resources are finite in the universe. This means that conflict between the two species is inevitable and due to the incomparable biology and probably incompatible bio-systems the assimilation of the two groups is improbable if not outright impossible. In reality if we meet another extra solar species it will not be star trek. It is much more likely that one side will not even recognize the other side as being sentient and will thus attempt to "exterminate" them as pests or study them as chimps.
Look at humans vs spiders, octopus, and dolphins. All three of these groups have species which are approximately as intelligent as 4-8 year old human children and can work mechanisms and make tools. In fact there are several species of spider which recognize themselves in a mirror and are likely at least semi sentient. Humans regularly kill them with little to no thought about killing something that is most likely sentient and self aware. Funnily enough the smartest non human creature on the planet are actually spiders and several species of octopus, yet they don't have protesters lining up to protect them. Instead the very very dumb bunnies and the comparatively stupid but closely related chimps and monkeys get the picket lines. (an even more bizarre twist to the right to life of a sentient being is that new research has indicated most plants may be self aware, feel pain, and recognize individuals that harm them...so go murder your broccoli).
On the other hand the best thing that could happen is for humanity to meet something so alien it lives on completely different types of planets and stars. At the least competition for resources will not occur for a long time and some trade might help to equalize the tech of the two groups before conflict occurs thus leading to a war rather than extermination.
Now if it is possible to access the multiverse and manipulate dimensions then the limited nature of resources might not be as true and thus the inevitability of conflict may not be true.
Another interesting caveat is the super intelligent species writers like to write about. ie a species so far in a advance that they are uninterested in the other species as they are not threats. The interesting thing is that such a species is actually more likely to sterilize a group like humanity as our actions increase entropy of the universe and thus drive it to a quicker heat death. As of the moment the effect is minimal but letting us develop would also let our effect increase so it would really be a measure of effort expended vs result.
As for inside the wrahammer 40K universe the xenos are clearly all hostile to verying degrees. Most of them want to eat humans or turn them into finger puppets. The few that are not overtly hostile are pervasively harmful. The two not overtly harmful factions being; Tau and Craftworld Eldar.
The Tau espouse the "greater good" but note that this good is always centered around the ethereals and their castes. They appear to be more than happy to put a group of billions of humans in a situation to be killed to save vastly less populated Tau worlds. They also do not share the tech evenly and worst of all are not prepared to truly support themselves. So far they have avoided chaos, necrons, or nids really focusing on them but they have absolutely no way to protect themselves from any of these factions devoting any real fraction of their forces. On the other hand the Tau have continually acted to weaken imperial control in the region and during the last crusade even invaded the imperium en mass. For a faction that is not even willing to consider the existence of daemons to attack a force fighting them is not exactly acting for the good of their people.
Craftworld Eldar can be summed in their word for humans; Mon-keigh ie they think anything not eldar or old one is an animal and should be used as they will. CWE have killed more humans than most of the overtly harmful factions and there is evidence they even had a hand in the horus heresy. Any "positive" relationship with the eldar is more likely to be a manipulation of the stupid humans to cause them to kill some random future eldar enemy at the cost of billions of human lives. Eldar are the perfect example of diplomacy requiring mutual trust and understanding...humans don't understand and eldar don't trust so diplomacy always turns into manipulation.
On the other hand the best thing that could happen is for humanity to meet something so alien it lives on completely different types of planets and stars. At the least competition for resources will not occur for a long time and some trade might help to equalize the tech of the two groups before conflict occurs thus leading to a war rather than extermination.
Now if it is possible to access the multiverse and manipulate dimensions then the limited nature of resources might not be as true and thus the inevitability of conflict may not be true.
Another interesting caveat is the super intelligent species writers like to write about. ie a species so far in a advance that they are uninterested in the other species as they are not threats. The interesting thing is that such a species is actually more likely to sterilize a group like humanity as our actions increase entropy of the universe and thus drive it to a quicker heat death. As of the moment the effect is minimal but letting us develop would also let our effect increase so it would really be a measure of effort expended vs result.
Meeting a Starfish Alien has already occurred to humanity - Daemons, the C'tan, and probably one or two others I cannot recall. Humanity either strikes first, or the Starfish was previously agitated by another xenos.
Multiverse thingies would be fun. Problem is anything without multiverse-shattering technology would try to kill the extradimensional creatures (humans). And the IOM still has the dogma of "kill on sight".
And might meet itself, resulting in some very strange diplomatic relations.
Super Intelligent aliens are scary concepts. Humans to them would be like grains of sand to us - so common and mundane that they're only a pretty curiosity.
Multiverse thingies? That would be H'rud, Daemons, Necrons (they can travel into other dimensions), and Enslavers. Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar (the Webway is another dimension).
The webway is in the warp, and the warp is a reflection of our reality. Given the 40k universe, I would guess that the other universes would have their own warps.
I thought Necrons just used spatial dimensions, rather than the multiverse?
Didn't know about Hrud....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: Spacial Dimensions: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th [...], 11th. And Time. And the Warp (in 40k)
Whether you call it a "spatial dimension" or "the multiverse", it's the same thing. It's another plane of reality. The Necrons call it "hyperspace".
Even as a reflection of Realspace, the Warp is still a separate dimension. There are places that exist as realities within the Warp but are conceptual in Realspace, various heavens and hells, and similar fever-dream places. Whether these places are "real" is... not really answerable.
A spatial dimension can exist in the same reality as other spatial dimensions (we have the 1st through 3rd and Time).
A universe is a possible outcome of the interactions of all possible combinations of physics, and each one may contain any collection of spatial dimensions.
.
Universe 1 could be ours, containing dimensions 1,2,3,T (Time) and W (Warp)
Universe 2 could be located by us, and contain: 1,2,3,T
Universe 3: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,W (Meaning it has 7 spatial dimensions, no Time, and the Warp)
The multiverse is the sum total of all possible realities.
Pssshaw.... take your "Real Science" and "True Facts" and get outta here! This is 40K we're talking about!
Science has no place here!
There's also no indication that there are any other dimensions of Realspace in 40K. We get the Warp (in all its infinite guises), the Webway, and the Hyper-phasic realities that the Necrons make use of.
Selym wrote:Meeting a Starfish Alien has already occurred to humanity - Daemons, the C'tan, and probably one or two others I cannot recall. Humanity either strikes first, or the Starfish was previously agitated by another xenos.
Multiverse thingies would be fun. Problem is anything without multiverse-shattering technology would try to kill the extradimensional creatures (humans). And the IOM still has the dogma of "kill on sight".
And might meet itself, resulting in some very strange diplomatic relations.
The truest version of this is the original C'Tan which were encased in metal bodies by the necrontyr. They really had no frame of reference before that.
Selym wrote:Super Intelligent aliens are scary concepts. Humans to them would be like grains of sand to us - so common and mundane that they're only a pretty curiosity.
Actually before the fall this would have been the eldar. So far in advance of the humans that even during the techno "peak" of the dark age the eldar couldn't care less what the humans did. Some of the other less known races might also qualify as some of the most advance races don't actually interact with the IoM but occasionally their actions cause catastrophes for the humans. In some ways the daemon gods could be classified as such. They don't actually care that much what their followers and the humans do we are like a chess game they play with each other.
There are still the other races that made up the orginization the eldar used to belong to that fought the chaos gods. Not sure if they are still around but they were active behind the scenes in 30K. Warhammer is weird however as a portion of the physics of the fiction is affected by the emotions of any race in the setting. This means that no matter how much more advanced any single race is they cannot ignore the others.
Psienesis wrote:Multiverse thingies? That would be H'rud, Daemons, Necrons (they can travel into other dimensions), and Enslavers. Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar (the Webway is another dimension).
Selym wrote:The webway is in the warp, and the warp is a reflection of our reality. Given the 40k universe, I would guess that the other universes would have their own warps.
I thought Necrons just used spatial dimensions, rather than the multiverse?
Didn't know about Hrud....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: Spacial Dimensions: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th [...], 11th. And Time. And the Warp (in 40k)
Honestly the writers in 40K just don't have enough science background to understand the difference between a dimension and universe. There isn't really any way of telling if the warp is a dimension of the universe or a close proximity universe connected in some way to the 40K universe. IMO it makes most sense to think of it as a universe either created or brought into close proximity to the 40K universe and thus there is exchange between the two universes. The fact that the time and space dimensions act differently (or for that matter even exist) in the warp argues it is not a dimension of the 40K universe. Though we are talking stuff we cannot really know, but the best understanding of using alternative dimensions I know of is that you have to be oriented to those dimensions and thus not oriented to the normal spacial/time dimensions to make use of them.
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
Dawn of War is NOT a reputable source - GW might strongly disagree with their made-up BS fluff. Video-games and boardgames CANNOT be used as real fluff. Only stuff from GW directly like books and codexes.
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
... and how does that affect gue'vesa? The Tau find happiness in their Caste. That is what they are. They are not blue-skinned humans, but a different species with different normals. Humans in the Tau Empire are offered more choice in how to serve in the Tau Empire than they are in the Imperium.
Would you approve of your wife being burned alive because she visited the opposite side of a planet when an insane Inquisitor saw a person walk under a ladder, decided it was a sign of Chaos, and destroyed every soul on the planet? That is the reality of the Imperium- mindless brutality, thoughtless killing, endless slaughter. The only difference between your lords of Terra and an Ork warboss is that the ork is brave enough to fight in the senseless carnage he demands.
Warboss Gorhack wrote: In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
Dawn of War is NOT a reputable source - GW might strongly disagree with their made-up BS fluff. Video-games and boardgames CANNOT be used as real fluff. Only stuff from GW directly like books and codexes.
Reminds me, I've been meaning to start a thread titled, "If tabletop 40k was based on Conquest."
The Tau espouse the "greater good" but note that this good is always centered around the ethereals and their castes. They appear to be more than happy to put a group of billions of humans in a situation to be killed to save vastly less populated Tau worlds.
Lies. During the Taros Crusade, gue'vesa were largely used to guard supply lines, cities, and other locations while Fire Warriors fought and died repelling the Imperial invaders. Yes,the Ethereals lead the Empire, and the expertise of the Castes is sought first, but the Tau do not trow lives away needlessly, ever. The Tau do not even expend drones the way the Imperium expends human lives- the lives it supposedly exists to defend.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
There's nothing hopeless about the imperium's campaigns against the Tau. Sooner or later the Tau will join the list of countless xenos races that have been all but extinguished by the armies of mankind. I need not remind you that the Imperium's military capacity is uncoutable times bigger than that of the Tau.
I refuse to argue with Xeno scum any longer. May the Emperor protect me from this heresy. I see why you all need a bolter shell in the head.
Alright, out of character I agree partially with the Tau. Communism is cool, except... the Imperium is transparent about how brutal it is, and makes no apologies. Also, the Inquisition sucks. We get it. But dudes like the Space Puppies and the Salamanders are against randomly nuking a world because a chaos cultist farted inside. We're not perfect... but yo, them Ethereals are some freaky xenos. I think I prefer pragmatism I understand than hypnosis I don't.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
There's nothing hopeless about the imperium's campaigns against the Tau. Sooner or later the Tau will join the list of countless xenos races that have been all but extinguished by the armies of mankind. I need not remind you that the Imperium's military capacity is uncoutable times bigger than that of the Tau.
The Imperium is dying, and has been dying for 10,000 years. It makes no technological progress- all it does is regress and scavenge from better days.
Its crusades have been repulsed, adn will continue to be repulsed. It policies of mindless aggression have caught up to it, and will destroy it. Only through the Greater Good will humanity survive.
For a faction that is not even willing to consider the existence of daemons to attack a force fighting them is not exactly acting for the good of their people.
Your Imperium regularly cleanses planets of all life because they so much as suspect that one person on them has heard of Chaos.
Ok, look here. What would you like to do, lose a couple million people, or have an entire planet infected with Chaos? You only have those two options because nobody sees you fighting Chaos. Don't judge us when you don't even know what it's like to have a single psycher wipe out an entire city in a blink because Papa Nurgle tickled his pituitary.
What happens when a world rebuffs the advances of the Water Caste diplomats? The Tau invade. It's not a "join us or we'll go ask someone else", it's a "join us or we'll just take the planet. We'd rather not waste the resources doing so, but if you insist, we are more than willing." And in Scenario B, there won't be many humans left to assimilate into the Tau Empire. That's the other important thing to remember about the Tau. They are an empire, which means expansionist policies, through whatever means are available.
The Tau do not exterminate populations that oppose them. It is the policy of the Tau Empire to offer forceful guidance to those who cannot see the light of the Greater Good, it is true, but the Tau do not condemn a populace to death merely because its leaders cannot initially see what the Greater Good offers. Surrender is always acceptable, and prior conflict is never held against a populace that sees the error of its ways. Only those races that would rather die than live peacefully in the Empire are extinguished, and humanity has proved again and again that its members will usually prefer the Tau as advisers, protectors, and leaders over the tyrants of Terra. Only misguided zealots oppose the Tau, and sadly, throw millions to their deaths in hopeless wars against the Greater Good.
"Forceful guidance". "Misguided". "Error of their ways".
Thanks for your xeno tyranny, but no thanks. At least our Imperium doesn't pretend Chaos doesn't exist. And my point still stands, you can choose to obey or die for your beliefs in the Imperium. In the Tau castes, your only choice is to obey, no matter what you think.
(I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
Kuroko1985 wrote: (I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
Signet-Powers 657677 8012871 2ce8a125645c3fff63b2009bae38e883 wrote:the Guant's Ghosts books describe the Imperium as doing only what's ultimately necessary.
Most of the villains in Gaunt's Ghosts are Imperial generals, Lords general, commissars and enlisted guardsmen who are doing things that are extremely unnecessary.
In this setting, it is more important to worry about whether everyone on one side is honest and competent. Even if the Imperium were plural and cosmopolitan with xenos holding equal rights, there would inevitably be intercommunal conflict, and the humans would still have to worry about people of their own species being venal and incompetent, profiteering on the conflict instead of resolving it equitably.
Kuroko1985 wrote: (I believe this is an in character type of mail, thusly, I will reply in kind)
Dear Inquisitor,
As a citizen and loyal servant of the Imperium I believe humanity should simply stand atop the stars and all within its holdings. This includes all native flora and fauna. Blessed are His worlds and blessed we who toil in His name. Thus, I suggest these xenos species should only exist to be subservient to we, Humanity. I do not wish to withhold his blessings from His universe, thus as much as these xenos filth are to be loathed, they should not be denied the opportunity to toil in His name the possibility be recognized by Him when their service to Humanity ends. For only in death does duty and service to Him ends.
By doing such we will be able to raise ourselves higher and have more troops ready to fight for the glory of The Golden Throne. Thus adding more potential resources for our use. A Xenos may earn respect. However they may not earn humanity. Therefore let us allow them the opportunity to earn such in a peaceful manner. If they spurn our good faith and our open arms to His light, we must educate them of their folly.
++Incoming Transmission++
Citizen 1985 657677 8020039,
Report tomorrow morning at 0600 hours sharp to the Officio Purgatorum on Sigillite Square to confess your sins and a final chance to be redeemed in the Emperor's eyes.
Execution is scheduled for 0700 hours.
Failure to show up will be considered dereliction of duty. Dereliction of duty is heresy.
++Thought for the Day: The man who has nothing can still have faith.++
++Transmission End++
Warboss Gorhack wrote: In some secondary sources the Tau certainly do involuntarily sterilize humans. The first Dawn of War game series certainly mentions mass sterilizations in one of the Tau campaign victory cutscenes.
Now, it's not done as a matter of race policy; it's done to 'humanely' control a particular human population, much in the way humans spay and neuter dogs and cats. Also, the source (Dawn of War) departs from canon in some well documented ways.
Dawn of War is NOT a reputable source - GW might strongly disagree with their made-up BS fluff. Video-games and boardgames CANNOT be used as real fluff. Only stuff from GW directly like books and codexes.
Yes it can. Because GW doesn't give a feth what DoW says, just as they don't care what a BL novel says compared to a Codex. A feth, GW has none of these to give about the "canonicity" of a licensed product.
Jollydevil wrote: Doesnt Vect, the most important character in DE fluff, die in the DoW series?
Moral of the story, DoW is not canon.
He doesn't die, no, but since Vect is the single greatest badass alive in the 40k universe and the ending has him running away like a Guardsman, I also say not canon.
Games Workshop has never endorsed any BS fluff made up by video game companies in any way shape or form EVER. The black library novels published by GW are semi-more legitimate but a lot of authors take liberty in what they write. Ultimately the most reputable source is the codex.
I love how desperate Tau-haters are to reference video games to cite reason to hate fish-heads. Maybe they had their stupid MEQs blown away by firewarriors and riptides too many times.
It's like the Star Wars or the Star Trek expanded universe. It's complete BS. They're going to rewrite all of that with the new reboot and both series.
DorianGray wrote: Games Workshop has never endorsed any BS fluff made up by video game companies in any way shape or form EVER. The black library novels published by GW are semi-more legitimate but a lot of authors take liberty in what they write. Ultimately the most reputable source is the codex.
I love how desperate Tau-haters are to reference video games to cite reason to hate fish-heads. Maybe they had their stupid MEQs blown away by firewarriors and riptides too many times.
It's like the Star Wars or the Star Trek expanded universe. It's complete BS. They're going to rewrite all of that with the new reboot and both series.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
DorianGray wrote: Games Workshop has never endorsed any BS fluff made up by video game companies in any way shape or form EVER. The black library novels published by GW are semi-more legitimate but a lot of authors take liberty in what they write. Ultimately the most reputable source is the codex.
I love how desperate Tau-haters are to reference video games to cite reason to hate fish-heads. Maybe they had their stupid MEQs blown away by firewarriors and riptides too many times.
It's like the Star Wars or the Star Trek expanded universe. It's complete BS. They're going to rewrite all of that with the new reboot and both series.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Slavery and oppression by an inhuman, inferior species? Humanity is rightfully afraid of the dangers of technology. Many times humanity's own arrogance surrounding techbology has almost led to its downfall. Improper respect for such a dangerous tool is disastrous and will likewise lead to the Tau's downfall.
A life given in service of the Emperor, and the Imperium as a whole to secure the survival of the species from creatures' who's ambitions are beyond extinction, but literal, biblical damnation. The soulless Tau cannot understand such a concept. Every life given on the battlefield is one civilian who gets to live, and one life that is ultimately more valuable than any Xenos life in existance. Especially a Tau life, who's soulless existence renders them little more than base cattle. Insignificant in the greater scheme.
And ultimately, I will always stand by my own before I kneel for an inhuman master.
Slavery and oppression by an inhuman, inferior species? Humanity is rightfully afraid of the dangers of technology. Many times humanity's own arrogance surrounding techbology has almost led to its downfall. Improper respect for such a dangerous tool is disastrous and will likewise lead to the Tau's downfall.
A life given in service of the Emperor, and the Imperium as a whole to secure the survival of the species from creatures' who's ambitions are beyond extinction, but literal, biblical damnation. The soulless Tau cannot understand such a concept. Every life given on the battlefield is one civilian who gets to live, and one life that is ultimately more valuable than any Xenos life in existance. Especially a Tau life, who's soulless existence renders them little more than base cattle. Insignificant in the greater scheme.
And ultimately, I will always stand by my own before I kneel for an inhuman master.
Slavery and oppression is the reality for the overwhelming majority of humans. The Tau, in comparison, offer a longer life with fewer dangers.
Humanity lost control of technology through incompetence. The Tau understand this to a degree humanity does not, as most humans do not serve the Greater Good.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Let's assume the Tau wipe out/conquer the Imperium. What happens next? Abaddon smashes into the Tau empire like the fist of an angry god because the Tau are stupid and think ignoring Chaos magically makes it go away.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Let's assume the Tau wipe out/conquer the Imperium. What happens next? Abaddon smashes into the Tau empire like the fist of an angry god because the Tau are stupid and think ignoring Chaos magically makes it go away.
Sounds like some vision.
The Ethereals, wise in all things, will have prepared for this. It is not for us to know what plans they have, but to fulfill them.
Nevertheless, here are several options.
The first is that, when the Emperor is unplugged from the Throne and allowed to die, he will still continue to serve humanity- and thus, the Greater Good, in the Warp.
The second is that human devotion to the Greater Good will allow a god of it to be born. Both will end Abaddon's domination of the warp, giving the Tau advantages in the war. unlike humanity, the leadership of the Tau are largely immune to the corrupting influence of the Warp, preventing a disaster like the Horus Heresy from occurring and handing Chaos an easy victory.
The Tau may finish the work the Old Ones started with the Krork and destroy Chaos with the largest army that exists in 40k, now united in common purpose.
All are possible, and the Ethereals may have other, better options up their sleeves.
Of course whatever their plan actually is, it was all master-minded by the Eldar. Carefully assisting various armies, to get the galaxy right where they want them.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Let's assume the Tau wipe out/conquer the Imperium. What happens next? Abaddon smashes into the Tau empire like the fist of an angry god because the Tau are stupid and think ignoring Chaos magically makes it go away.
Sounds like some vision.
The Ethereals, wise in all things, will have prepared for this. It is not for us to know what plans they have, but to fulfill them.
Nevertheless, here are several options.
The first is that, when the Emperor is unplugged from the Throne and allowed to die, he will still continue to serve humanity- and thus, the Greater Good, in the Warp.
The second is that human devotion to the Greater Good will allow a god of it to be born. Both will end Abaddon's domination of the warp, giving the Tau advantages in the war. unlike humanity, the leadership of the Tau are largely immune to the corrupting influence of the Warp, preventing a disaster like the Horus Heresy from occurring and handing Chaos an easy victory.
The Tau may finish the work the Old Ones started with the Krork and destroy Chaos with the largest army that exists in 40k, now united in common purpose.
All are possible, and the Ethereals may have other, better options up their sleeves.
And after its all over, the Ethereals and Tau will declare the extermination or imprisonment of all non-Tau, including humans. The Tau already treat humans as fifth class citizens when they help out. What do you think would happen once we're unnecessary.
And to reaffirm, I will always stand by my own before I stand with the enemy.
Instead of exterminating xenos use them as another fighting force, similar to how some Abhumans are utilized. They will kill some of the enemy who will in turn kill some of them.
Two problems are solved for the price of one. When the xenos survivors are no longer useful at the time we can kill them and get more where needed. Repeat process as needed.
Orks: Leak information about a world ready for war which in reality has been targeted by Tyranid hive fleets. Two hordes fight it out, weaken each other then Humanity kills what's left.
Eldar: Just leave them alone. They might see some good for them in this and will save Human lives.
Necrons: Upon finding a Tomb use captured Orks to make a population for fighting them. Or use above solution.
Tau: Make nice with them and have them fight our enemies for us. Make up some story about why they should do this. Consider redirecting prison transports to Tau controlled world
and let fate decide how things play out. Also load person currently in prison to aid in this.
Dark Eldar: They like to hurt things. Round them up and drop them on an enemy world with no means of escape. They might enjoy it.
Tyranids: Use whichever previously mentioned solution works best.
WarAngel wrote: Orks: Leak information about a world ready for war which in reality has been targeted by Tyranid hive fleets. Two hordes fight it out, weaken each other then Humanity kills what's left.
An Inquisitor has already tried this. It backfired spectacularly as that war continues to escalate and whoever wins will be far stronger than before.
And after its all over, the Ethereals and Tau will declare the extermination or imprisonment of all non-Tau, including humans. The Tau already treat humans as fifth class citizens when they help out. What do you think would happen once we're unnecessary.
And to reaffirm, I will always stand by my own before I stand with the enemy.
The Tau value human life pointedly more than the Imperium does. During the Taros campaign, humans were used primarily to guard the rear while the Fire Caste did the heavy fighting. They were equipped with the Tau's superior infantry weapon technology instead of the flashlights favored by the Imperium.
You stand by tyranny. You stand by moral monsters who think of you only as the most expendable resource imaginable.
Except, you know, writing rules for the Blood Ravens.
... and if those rules were consistent with Dawn of War, they'd mostly consist of the Blood Ravens having a chance to steal wargear and vehicles from the enemy army before the game started.
Tau are communist alien scumbags who take up territory belonging to the Imperium, and are a direct threat to humanity. If they expand, they enslave or destroy Mankind. They are literally a cancer of the Imperium, growing and destroying from the inside.
On the contrary, the Tau are the greatest hope for humanity.
The Imperium is rotting from within. They are without vision and slowly being destroyed by their own incompetence and fear of technology. Human lives are wasted by the billions every day in unsafe working conditions and on the battlefield with obsolete and obsolescent gear.
Only the vision of the Tau Empire can lead humanity forward.
Let's assume the Tau wipe out/conquer the Imperium. What happens next? Abaddon smashes into the Tau empire like the fist of an angry god because the Tau are stupid and think ignoring Chaos magically makes it go away.
Sounds like some vision.
The Ethereals, wise in all things, will have prepared for this. It is not for us to know what plans they have, but to fulfill them.
Nevertheless, here are several options.
The first is that, when the Emperor is unplugged from the Throne and allowed to die, he will still continue to serve humanity- and thus, the Greater Good, in the Warp.
The second is that human devotion to the Greater Good will allow a god of it to be born. Both will end Abaddon's domination of the warp, giving the Tau advantages in the war. unlike humanity, the leadership of the Tau are largely immune to the corrupting influence of the Warp, preventing a disaster like the Horus Heresy from occurring and handing Chaos an easy victory.
The Tau may finish the work the Old Ones started with the Krork and destroy Chaos with the largest army that exists in 40k, now united in common purpose.
All are possible, and the Ethereals may have other, better options up their sleeves.
1."The Ethereals, wise in all things, will have prepared for this. It is not for us to know what plans they have, but to fulfill them"
Translation: I have no idea what's going on and oh God I hope my Communist hypno-masters have a plan. Which they don't, because we've established that those space cows don't recognize Chaos as a threat. They have no idea what it's like to have a psycher nuke a city, they don't give a feth.
2. I wonder if you understand what life support even means. The Emperor isn't there because it's an orgasmic experience, he's there because if he croaks, mankind dies as well... along with most of the galaxy, because Chaos doesn't play around. There's a reason nobody has yet unplugged him. There are theories that he'll return in a new body, ascend to godhood, or maybe even regenerate somehow. The key word there is theory. Don't pretend that you, a xeno scum, know better than righteous devotees. Nobody knows jack, that's why nothings been done.
3. Human devotion of the Greater Good? I'm sorry, I nearly burst my appendix laughing. You think your puny empire can marshal enough faith and devotion to spawn a god, assuming that's how gods are even made? Hilarious. The entire Imperium of Man is a fanatical cult that worships the Allfather, and nothing has spawned. We're talking about trillions upon trillions of humans worshipping, praying, loving the Emperor and all he stands for, and yet nothing has happened. Your empire cannot even begin to comprehend how big we are, but you want to do better?
4. If the Ethereals have better plans, why not list them instead of this mockery? Actually, that's an insult to good mockeries everywhere. Those plans could only have been conceived by a heretic. Your leadership is sitting on their hands like their regal behinds are scared of the sun, and yet you fail to see the largest army the galaxy has ever seen knocking on Cadia. We can barely handle them, and we live for sacrifice and war. The Tau will be crushed like a fat caterpillar.
Also. You people have no idea how to handle psychers because you don't have any. Its cool if your population is exclusively Tau or Kroot or whatever other muppets you've recruited, but mankind is different. See, man knows man best. When you take over a world and try to spread your communism, you may succeed. Your heresy may make the world flourish. Your technology may beat us back. But you don't watch for the enemy within. You don't know what a heretic is. The Chaos cultist. The rogue psycher. The traitor.
When you take over a human world, populate it and make it flourish, only to have it die a bitter death either by psycher activity or a Chaos incursion, you'll remember the Emperor. And as your Empire lays dying as the smoke of demon fire dances around your bones, you'll regret the day you refused us. We don't sacrifice for nothing. We sacrifice to keep the enemy at bay.
1."The Ethereals, wise in all things, will have prepared for this. It is not for us to know what plans they have, but to fulfill them"
Translation: I have no idea what's going on and oh God I hope my Communist hypno-masters have a plan. Which they don't, because we've established that those space cows don't recognize Chaos as a threat. They have no idea what it's like to have a psycher nuke a city, they don't give a feth.
2. I wonder if you understand what life support even means. The Emperor isn't there because it's an orgasmic experience, he's there because if he croaks, mankind dies as well... along with most of the galaxy, because Chaos doesn't play around. There's a reason nobody has yet unplugged him. There are theories that he'll return in a new body, ascend to godhood, or maybe even regenerate somehow. The key word there is theory. Don't pretend that you, a xeno scum, know better than righteous devotees. Nobody knows jack, that's why nothings been done.
3. Human devotion of the Greater Good? I'm sorry, I nearly burst my appendix laughing. You think your puny empire can marshal enough faith and devotion to spawn a god, assuming that's how gods are even made? Hilarious. The entire Imperium of Man is a fanatical cult that worships the Allfather, and nothing has spawned. We're talking about trillions upon trillions of humans worshipping, praying, loving the Emperor and all he stands for, and yet nothing has happened. Your empire cannot even begin to comprehend how big we are, but you want to do better?
4. If the Ethereals have better plans, why not list them instead of this mockery? Actually, that's an insult to good mockeries everywhere. Those plans could only have been conceived by a heretic. Your leadership is sitting on their hands like their regal behinds are scared of the sun, and yet you fail to see the largest army the galaxy has ever seen knocking on Cadia. We can barely handle them, and we live for sacrifice and war. The Tau will be crushed like a fat caterpillar.
Also. You people have no idea how to handle psychers because you don't have any. Its cool if your population is exclusively Tau or Kroot or whatever other muppets you've recruited, but mankind is different. See, man knows man best. When you take over a world and try to spread your communism, you may succeed. Your heresy may make the world flourish. Your technology may beat us back. But you don't watch for the enemy within. You don't know what a heretic is. The Chaos cultist. The rogue psycher. The traitor.
When you take over a human world, populate it and make it flourish, only to have it die a bitter death either by psycher activity or a Chaos incursion, you'll remember the Emperor. And as your Empire lays dying as the smoke of demon fire dances around your bones, you'll regret the day you refused us. We don't sacrifice for nothing. We sacrifice to keep the enemy at bay.
1. Since popular theory holds the Tau were created by Harlequinns, the Tau actually understand the threat of Chaos better than humanity does. Suck it.
2. If the Emperor dies off of life support and that's it, the technology of the Tau is humanity's only hope, because in their current state they're losing to Chaos.
3. Nothing has spawned because he lives. Prayers to him empower a corpse, with all of its corpse limitations. Also, the success the Tau have had in converting human worlds proves that most humans couldn't give two gaks about your Emperor compared to having a drone to harvest the crops and a gun to defend their land that's more powerful than a flashlight.
4. Your Imperium would rather be crushed than ask for help from xenos. Don't blame us for your inevitable failure when you demonize us more than your Chaos.
We have psyker races we have hidden from humanity for some time.
DorianGray wrote: Games Workshop has never endorsed any BS fluff made up by video game companies in any way shape or form EVER. The black library novels published by GW are semi-more legitimate but a lot of authors take liberty in what they write. Ultimately the most reputable source is the codex.
I love how desperate Tau-haters are to reference video games to cite reason to hate fish-heads. Maybe they had their stupid MEQs blown away by firewarriors and riptides too many times.
It's like the Star Wars or the Star Trek expanded universe. It's complete BS. They're going to rewrite all of that with the new reboot and both series.
Except GW itself has stated that everything is canon, and the authors consider the Horus Heresy books to be "how it really happened" with other material on the HH being myths. So in short, you're the one spouting the bs, not the black library.
Also the expanded universe in Star Wars was perfectly canon till the Disney retcon. Now however all new approved media is equal canon with the movies- there's no longer tiers. New comics, books, and shows are just as canon as the movies are.
And after its all over, the Ethereals and Tau will declare the extermination or imprisonment of all non-Tau, including humans. The Tau already treat humans as fifth class citizens when they help out. What do you think would happen once we're unnecessary.
And to reaffirm, I will always stand by my own before I stand with the enemy.
The Tau value human life pointedly more than the Imperium does. During the Taros campaign, humans were used primarily to guard the rear while the Fire Caste did the heavy fighting. They were equipped with the Tau's superior infantry weapon technology instead of the flashlights favored by the Imperium.
You stand by tyranny. You stand by moral monsters who think of you only as the most expendable resource imaginable.
The Tau see you as something more.
Yes, they see us as cannon fodder. The Tau treat other races as lesser beings time and time again. The Taros campaign example you use is irrelavant. As such a vital campaign, they would be stupid to believe that such "second class" citizens can handle the task, not unlike the Imperium doesn't use Abhumans for their bulk work.
The Tau are incredibly naive about the greater threats of the Galaxy. They were unable to defeat a small Tyranid fleet. They have no concept of the danger of Chaos or the Necrons. Submission to the Tau would fracture the military dominance of the Imperium and ultimately lead both factions open to the threats of Chaos and more importantly, the Tyranids.
The Imperium trades human lives for the ultimate greater good, because human life is the only resource they have. For the individual, this is bad. But for the survival of the race, and the galaxy as a whole, its vital. You commie fishheads should understand that. No life given in service of the Emperor is given in vain.
Nor does it only serve the Imperium. Those lives given also save the lives of the Tau and Eldar by the dozen, by holding back the threats of Chaos and Tyranids, as well as Orks and Necrons.
Yes, they see us as cannon fodder. The Tau treat other races as lesser beings time and time again. The Taros campaign example you use is irrelavant. As such a vital campaign, they would be stupid to believe that such "second class" citizens can handle the task, not unlike the Imperium doesn't use Abhumans for their bulk work.
The Imperium uses abhumans like ratlings and ogruns as cannon fodder all of the time.
Yes, they see us as cannon fodder. The Tau treat other races as lesser beings time and time again. The Taros campaign example you use is irrelavant. As such a vital campaign, they would be stupid to believe that such "second class" citizens can handle the task, not unlike the Imperium doesn't use Abhumans for their bulk work.
The Imperium uses abhumans like ratlings and ogruns as cannon fodder all of the time.
So? They aren't human, they're practically Xenos. They should be honoured to serve as they do.
Furyou Miko wrote: OK, for all you Tau symapthisers, here's a little linguistic trick.
The Tau word for humans under the rule of the Tau empire is "Gue'vesa".
This is a combination of the Tau word for alien, 'Gue' and the suffix 'vesa'.
A non-subjugated alien is a 'Gue'la' or 'least-ranked alien'.
The 'vesa' suffix is only found in one other group in the Tau empire.
Drones. A Gun Drone is a 'Shas'vesa'.
Humans in the Tau Empire have the same ranking as nonsapient artificial intelligences.
Most humans have not been integrated into the Tau Empire yet.
I think what you are noticing is that there is no specific Tau word for human yet. Don't worry, I am sure the Ethereals will add a word to the language for you as you become more important within the Empire.
... and as we have already pointed out, drones are treated better by the Tau than most humans are treated by the Imperium.
No, 'vesa is a rank/role appellation, not a species appelation (Which would be before the apostrophe, eg gue', shas', kor').
When humans gain a specific word in Tau that describes them, it will go at the start of their name, for example if the Tau word for human became Jel, they would be Jel'vesa, broken into five ranks - Jel'la, Jel'ui, Jel'vre, Jel'el and Jel'o.
Gue'vesa is a rank. "alien/drone" in closest literal translation. "foreigner/disposable buzzing thing" in abstract.
Furyou Miko wrote: No, 'vesa is a rank/role appellation, not a species appelation (Which would be before the apostrophe, eg gue', shas', kor').
When humans gain a specific word in Tau that describes them, it will go at the start of their name, for example if the Tau word for human became Jel, they would be Jel'vesa, broken into five ranks - Jel'la, Jel'ui, Jel'vre, Jel'el and Jel'o.
Gue'vesa is a rank. "alien/drone" in closest literal translation. "foreigner/disposable buzzing thing" in abstract.
Besides, we've been fighting them ever since they got spacefaring capabilities. How do they not have a word for us yet? That'd be like humans failing to name the Eldar because they haven't been integrated yet.
I honestly don't mind the Tau... as long as they don't pull their Greater Good bull with the Imperium. We have bigger problems to deal with, like the Chaos swarms that the Tau steadily both ignore and have no contingencies for.
Furyou Miko wrote: No, 'vesa is a rank/role appellation, not a species appelation (Which would be before the apostrophe, eg gue', shas', kor').
When humans gain a specific word in Tau that describes them, it will go at the start of their name, for example if the Tau word for human became Jel, they would be Jel'vesa, broken into five ranks - Jel'la, Jel'ui, Jel'vre, Jel'el and Jel'o.
Gue'vesa is a rank. "alien/drone" in closest literal translation. "foreigner/disposable buzzing thing" in abstract.
Not always, and not really. For example, the word for the Vespid is Mal'kor (bugs of the air, roughly).
Rank, when appropriate, is added after. A human soldier is gue'vesa'la, and a human sergeant gue'vesa'ui.
That doesn't change the fact that 'vesa means drone.
So humans are a kind of drone that has a rank structure. So to vespid. Mal'kor is the word for Vespid, but in military ToE, they'll be referred to as 'alien auxiliaries [Vespid]', although whether that's written as Gue'vesa/Mal'kor or Mal'kor'vesa depends on the writer.
So humans are a kind of drone that has a rank structure. So to vespid. Mal'kor is the word for Vespid, but in military ToE, they'll be referred to as 'alien auxiliaries [Vespid]', although whether that's written as Gue'vesa/Mal'kor or Mal'kor'vesa depends on the writer.
... actually, I've never seen anything but the Mal'kor for vespid.
Vesa doesn't mean drone. It means helper. It's not a mark of rank. It's a descriptor, much like kor isn't a sign of rank. If it were a rank, 'la would replace it, rather than being tacked onto the end for human troops.
Do you speak any languages other than English? As I understand, Japanese and Chinese do the same sort of thing- words will be made of smaller words, and the new compound word will be only vaguely described by the two together. Even Chinese written language works like that. You're looking at a design choice to make the Tau more asian and not seeing that that's what is going on.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: As a species humanity must be VERY careful when dealing with XENO species, and should keep them at arms length for as long as possible.
TBH if we have the practical ability to destroy a foreign alien species that could one day rival us we should do so.
If we are currently incapable of accomplishing that, then we should feign loyalty and friendship long enough until we can destroy them.
Because the people who wrote the Tau language almost certainly don't speak Japanese, and even if they did, their first language is English and so their language experiments will be primarily based on English language construction.
In any case, even the fact that you're comparing Chinese and Japanese at the same time is silly. Japanese is utterly unique among East-Asian languages to the point where it's actually one of Linguistics' biggest mysteries. They stole some of their writing from the Chinese, but even then the way its used is just plain weird.
There's no real correlation between Japanese and Tau, in any case, linguistically speaking. The closest you have is honourifics... in Tau, each word fragment has a defined meaning. In Japanese, each word fragment can have five or six different meanings and the only way to tell which one is intended is by its context in the rest of the sentence.
In Tau, Kais always means 'skilled'. Shi always means 'victory' ('triumph' is a synonym for victory).
In Japanese, Shi can mean death, master (as in mastering a skill) or even four depending on the context. This is why the Japanese have such a pun-based sense of humour (for example, "Arumikannoueniarumikan" - 'there's an orange on the can' works because arumikan means 'aluminium can', but aru mikan as two separate words means 'mikan orange').
Also, Tau are alien scumbag who gave humanity an ultimatum to join the scumbag alien empire or die. Pretty clear they aren't out to make friends if you threaten people in order to join your cause.
Furyou Miko wrote: You can't make that argument against Norton, he's American. "World peace through superior firepower" has been their modus operandi since 1945.
Personally I have no issue with that. Logically speaking, if no one can fight back, there'd be no wars. Not ideal but still, no wars is no wars, right? But if USA started up and tried world domination, it would all come down to where Britain stood. If Uk stood with USA, I'll stand with them too. But if US tried to take on UK, stand against. You always support your own.
As a species humanity must be VERY careful when dealing with XENO species, and should keep them at arms length for as long as possible.
TBH if we have the practical ability to destroy a foreign alien species that could one day rival us we should do so.
If we are currently incapable of accomplishing that, then we should feign loyalty and friendship long enough until we can destroy them.
Humanity above all.
Yes, I would not have said better. All this debate is very interesting, but, in the end, it is something only humans like us in our modern times could have. In the 40k setting, none of the most well known xenos species is wondering the same about Mankind. I mean, do Tau, Necrons, Eldar of all kinds, or other less famous races like Slaugh or Rak'Gol even wonder if they can coexist with us?
Certainly not; they either despise us or want to exterminate us. Tau are quite different because they believe in the Greater Good but we all know that they would conquer us than let us live freely if they could. 40k universe seems too harsh for interspecies diplomacy and if we start to hesitate about what we should do against them, we get weaker because they would never do the same.
I may sound a little harsh, but I play Ordo Xenos for a reason =D
