Binabik15 wrote: Got onto the pre-preorder list of my local store, so I should be fine. Not sure I even really want it with those weird lanky gitz and proper boyz showing up later for 40k.
But it seems like the queue is gone, so time to check out the 360°.
I decided to look at the site on my laptop instead of my phone, so now I'm stuck in the queue 20 minutes, though.
I left, because I can look at pics later, but what a strange experience.
There's a huge issue in GW doing this ultra limited release tactic. I am hoping this is a function of covid and brexit, but boxes like this were one of the ways for GW to pass savings onto customers. Throttling the numbers of these boxes as hard as they have been doing compared to what they used to do is bad news for consumers. It is a way to raise prices without raising the sticker number (that they have done plenty already)
Well before there was no domitus box equilavents for anybody to buy. Starter sets, start collecting, occasional 2 side boxes like the dok/slaanesh.
Kanluwen wrote: Same reason everyone else's shut down at each preorder timeframe: to prevent DDoSing taking it all down.
Ah... like McDonalds stores closing in the UK because it got busy in the US. Hmm...
Seems to show a pretty lousy IT infrastructure on GW's part if this is the case.
That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
Seeing as so much of the action finds itself in Ghur right now, the Ghurish Expanse Realmscape* is the ideal destination for your latest battles over the Dawnbringer Crusades’ landmarks, which you’ll find in the new Objective Set.
* Please note, although pre-orders are available today, this product will be delayed in shipping to customers in North America until the 31st of July. All other regions remain unaffected and will ship as usual.
Wonder if "North America" only includes US and Canada...
KillerAngel wrote: That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
I agree. Although it was really frustrating when I wanted to 'pop on' the site to see 3D pics for the Admech models I was building today.
I just ordered the Dominion Box in the UK 9 hours after release and it was still in stock. My first foray into AoS. :-)
I do wonder though if;
a) GW made loads more having learnt from the Indomitus lesson
b) AoS is still far behind 40k in sales
c) The queue system put some people off and they tried other online stores rather than GWs
There's a huge issue in GW doing this ultra limited release tactic. I am hoping this is a function of covid and brexit, but boxes like this were one of the ways for GW to pass savings onto customers. Throttling the numbers of these boxes as hard as they have been doing compared to what they used to do is bad news for consumers. It is a way to raise prices without raising the sticker number (that they have done plenty already)
Well before there was no domitus box equilavents for anybody to buy. Starter sets, start collecting, occasional 2 side boxes like the dok/slaanesh.
This is just a 2 sides box though?
No. Battle Boxes don't come with a collector's edition rulebook or all new models.
KidCthulhu wrote: Is it just me, or is there a second musician on the Hobgrot sprue?
Drummer:
Spoiler:
Horn?
Spoiler:
I apologize if this was already brought up.
Yeha, you can see them both built and painted on the Dominion's page, alongside two diffrent Bannermen. Seems like the sprue builds two diffrent squads of 10, and not 2 copies of 1 squad of 10.
GaroRobe wrote: I was wondering if the banner had options. I saw a loose banner in the box, but it was next to the bannerman that had a banner already attached
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Picked one up from Element. Initially tried to buy from Darksphere, but their copies are due to be shipped out in an autumn second wave, which I thought was a bit strange.
DarkSphere did a register of interest, so I’m guessing their first wave was all taken up by that.
I wasn’t aware of that. I didn’t get an email from them.
I don’t think anyone did, I just saw it on their webpage a couple of weeks or so ago.
Yeah there was an email, it was sent in the evening of the 24th May, its how i knew about their "register of interest" and also the day i put my name down on it.
KillerAngel wrote: That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
I agree. Although it was really frustrating when I wanted to 'pop on' the site to see 3D pics for the Admech models I was building today.
I just ordered the Dominion Box in the UK 9 hours after release and it was still in stock. My first foray into AoS. :-)
I do wonder though if;
a) GW made loads more having learnt from the Indomitus lesson
b) AoS is still far behind 40k in sales
c) The queue system put some people off and they tried other online stores rather than GWs
I would guess D.) GW limited the amount available to stores and online vendors meaning that if people want them they gotta get them directly from GW. So now they get to sell the same amount yet make more profit for unit. Should also keep scalpers down. So a win for GW all around.
KillerAngel wrote: That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
I agree. Although it was really frustrating when I wanted to 'pop on' the site to see 3D pics for the Admech models I was building today.
I just ordered the Dominion Box in the UK 9 hours after release and it was still in stock. My first foray into AoS. :-)
I do wonder though if;
a) GW made loads more having learnt from the Indomitus lesson
b) AoS is still far behind 40k in sales
c) The queue system put some people off and they tried other online stores rather than GWs
I would guess D.) GW limited the amount available to stores and online vendors meaning that if people want them they gotta get them directly from GW. So now they get to sell the same amount yet make more profit for unit. Should also keep scalpers down. So a win for GW all around.
Your D) doesnt look to be the case. Several UK online retailers still have it as available 11 hours after release. For indomitus they were all sold out in an hour
KillerAngel wrote: That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
I agree. Although it was really frustrating when I wanted to 'pop on' the site to see 3D pics for the Admech models I was building today.
I can empathize with that. I admit I know very little about servers, but I wonder if there could be an option to browse only (ie no shopping cart capability) that bypasses the queue.
Had a lot of stuff going on most of this morning and through lunch and had written off getting to pre-order. Just popped on line on a whim just now and was able to place my pre-order. Pleasantly surprised. Webstore is still slow to load or refresh, but call this a success. Now lets see if they deliver or if I get a nicely worded message saying something about something has gone wrong with my order.
I guess the que is all done. I was able to log in directly with no wait or even a screen popping up. Still in stock. I already decided I’m going to wait and see if I can get it discounted through Miniaturemarket or other local shop.
I'm pretty impressed that there still Dominion boxes for pre-order on the GW online store, a much better launch than that for Indomintus, although I can imagine there is less demand.
Maybe the queue helped smooth things over, but if you can still get it seven hours later, I’m not sure having it served a purpose. Maybe it deterred some scalpers from buying a hundred copies at a time…maybe…
My experience? I was #10117 in the North American preorder queue. It took me about twenty minutes to be allowed into the store. Obviously, you could still buy the set and books also at that point. Once in, the checkout still performed terribly, though. It took me almost ten minutes to get through the check out process.
I guess it is better than website crashes….but not by much.
We've been seeing hints of Chaos Dwarfs throughout Age of Sigmar. The Slaves to Darkness battletome even names them as the Furnace Kings of Azgorh. The following is presumably from the 'War at Amberstone Watch' booklet found in the Dominion box.
KillerAngel wrote: That was a very pleasant experience. Logged in 30min after pre-orders went live. 17min wait in the queue while I hung out chatting with in-laws. Everything still in stock when I got in, checked out, done.
I agree. Although it was really frustrating when I wanted to 'pop on' the site to see 3D pics for the Admech models I was building today.
I just ordered the Dominion Box in the UK 9 hours after release and it was still in stock. My first foray into AoS. :-)
I do wonder though if;
a) GW made loads more having learnt from the Indomitus lesson
b) AoS is still far behind 40k in sales
c) The queue system put some people off and they tried other online stores rather than GWs
I would guess D.) GW limited the amount available to stores and online vendors meaning that if people want them they gotta get them directly from GW. So now they get to sell the same amount yet make more profit for unit. Should also keep scalpers down. So a win for GW all around.
Your D) doesnt look to be the case. Several UK online retailers still have it as available 11 hours after release. For indomitus they were all sold out in an hour
Here in the USA there wasn't one retailer who had it had to get it direct from GW and pay the full boat.
It was surprising to see the coins available eight hours after the pre-order went live at my region but I managed to resist the temptation. I had already promised to purchase a copy to support my local store so I am going there instead. I don't think I am going to actually collect either army but they look like fun to paint and try new basing techniques on.
I didn't expect Dominion to sell as fast as Indomitus or Cursed City but pre-order bonus lasting for hours was unexpected.
jullevi wrote: It was surprising to see the coins available eight hours after the pre-order went live at my region but I managed to resist the temptation. I had already promised to purchase a copy to support my local store so I am going there instead. I don't think I am going to actually collect either army but they look like fun to paint and try new basing techniques on.
I didn't expect Dominion to sell as fast as Indomitus or Cursed City but pre-order bonus lasting for hours was unexpected.
Sure enough. Wouldn't it be nice if GW didn't just learn from Indomitus that they have to put in the factory time either way and just made enough copies to begin with rather than having to smooth over any outcry with a made to order wave, but also followed that line of thought to its logical conclusion and have enough stock of the pre-order bonus as well?
Seems like so far it's a pretty positive release without noticeable complaints.
tneva82 wrote: Not fan how so far games seem to be decided on battle tactics. Objectives fairly irrelevant. Well gw wants to push monsters so...
Also leads to itc style curse where army lists are made just on focusing on secondaries.
I got a firm impression that they were both worth enough to make players account for both; ignoring either is a sure way to lose IMO. Also, if you look at what the battle tactics are it really isn't something one could build an army focusing on; each is different and one cannot do the same tactic twice.
Still available in the US. That's a surprise. Maybe GW just made that many copies? Or maybe the scalpers were actually discouraged by the queue line.
I'm just hoping this means I can pick up a few of the units on ebay for a decent price. I really just want the Knight Vexillor, but I'm only seeing it for sale from the UK and I'm not paying $26 in shipping lol
Also, I get that they went the 40k route with the banners, and it has a shard of the anvil in it for some reason. Terminator armor having shards of the Emperor's armor makes sense, since he clearly can't use it. But why are they chipping away the anvil when it's super important for stormcast? Grungni, what are you doing?!?
I think it depends on if the orders are made directly through GW for the third parties.
It's worth noting that there was also a set of 5 art prints, a squig keychain, a Path to Glory quest card, Warscroll Card sleeves (16x), and a metal AoS pin that are tied to preorders that might be a thing that independent shops will have.
The thing is barring people who want to flip both armies; this is a starter set with 2 armies in it and a rule book; but no one of those armies is Space Marines. One is totally new (has 0 established fanbase) and the other is a market leader, but still only 1 of many armies in AoS.
So the buying pool is much smaller.
Cursed City was a stand-alone game so you don't have to be interested in Age of Sigmar, Vampire nor Cities of Sigmar to collect it. Sure if you collect one of those two armies you get a boon; but in the end it was a product that could stand fully alone.
Just had an email from Firestorm Games, my go to Online retailer, who I ordered Dominion from. They had Dominion up at the rrp of £125, but as they have not been as restricted with the amount of copies they were able to get in they have given me a £20 credit and the price on their site has been amended to £106.25. Good to see companies being proactive with this.
SamusDrake wrote: Being as this AoS preorder is going on for two weeks, it would be nice if there was a preview for next Saturday.
Previews usually get announced on Mondays, but it's very likely that there will be a "#NewAoS" preview show on July 3rd to celebrate the release.
If they follow the pattern of 40k? -Launch Party show on release day for AoS. -Announce of the starter sets+contents afterwards. -A Battletome Show when the first two battletomes get released.
Ghaz wrote: We've been seeing hints of Chaos Dwarfs throughout Age of Sigmar. The Slaves to Darkness battletome even names them as the Furnace Kings of Azgorh. The following is presumably from the 'War at Amberstone Watch' booklet found in the Dominion box.
Both the Spire Tyrants and Iron Golems have Chaos Duardin in their warbands. Warcry bands can be used in AOS so there isn’t a reason to discount the models from the setting.
Both the Spire Tyrants and Iron Golems have Chaos Duardin in their warbands. Warcry bands can be used in AOS so there isn’t a reason to discount the models from the setting.
Well, let's hope we're getting Hashut worshipping Babylonians, not really short Chaos Warriors.
Kanluwen wrote: I think it depends on if the orders are made directly through GW for the third parties.
It's worth noting that there was also a set of 5 art prints, a squig keychain, a Path to Glory quest card, Warscroll Card sleeves (16x), and a metal AoS pin that are tied to preorders that might be a thing that independent shops will have.
What?
I never heard of these.
Only for independents? :O
Ghaz wrote: We've been seeing hints of Chaos Dwarfs throughout Age of Sigmar. The Slaves to Darkness battletome even names them as the Furnace Kings of Azgorh. The following is presumably from the 'War at Amberstone Watch' booklet found in the Dominion box.
Both the Spire Tyrants and Iron Golems have Chaos Duardin in their warbands. Warcry bands can be used in AOS so there isn’t a reason to discount the models from the setting.
Yes, but those aren't from the Furnace Kings of Azgorh. They're just Duardin who have thrown in with Chaos.
Kanluwen wrote: I think it depends on if the orders are made directly through GW for the third parties.
It's worth noting that there was also a set of 5 art prints, a squig keychain, a Path to Glory quest card, Warscroll Card sleeves (16x), and a metal AoS pin that are tied to preorders that might be a thing that independent shops will have.
What?
I never heard of these.
Only for independents? :O
My local indie and GW both had them as swag for preordering in store.
Overread wrote: The thing is barring people who want to flip both armies; this is a starter set with 2 armies in it and a rule book; but no one of those armies is Space Marines. One is totally new (has 0 established fanbase) and the other is a market leader, but still only 1 of many armies in AoS.
So the buying pool is much smaller.
Cursed City was a stand-alone game so you don't have to be interested in Age of Sigmar, Vampire nor Cities of Sigmar to collect it. Sure if you collect one of those two armies you get a boon; but in the end it was a product that could stand fully alone.
As a result its potential market is greater.
New army is more of new units to existing army though. Every orruk player is target besides new players.
Had scions zero existing target players? Or were ig players existlng target to sell to...
Kanluwen wrote: Gee, it's almost like GW knows that and has been using playtesters/tournament names with followings for a reason...
Considering people figured out that their advice is just as generic and terrible as Warhammer Community's usual fare almost immediately, it isn't helping.
Gotta say, when it came time to pull the trigger, I didn’t pull for the dominion boxed set*.
Reasons:
1. Stormcast. While I love the new armor(and SCE in general), I already have enough SCE in the backlog. Probably 4 armies worth. Had I not had so much, I’d have probably started a new army of them.
2. Orruks. Again, while I dig the Kruleboyz, I wanted something different for Destruction. Something non-greenskin.
3. I’m not a fan of limited edition rulebooks. I want something I can use and abuse. I’m trying to go all digital anyway.
4. The coins just didn’t move me. The box that they come in looks nice, but not nice enough to offset any of the above.
In the end, I got the standard book, GHB, the diary thing for some reason, and the objective set.
*If I’m bored, looking to start a new army and have the cash, I might buy one at the FLGS down the road.
"The Skullgrinder would speak when it suited him, and not before. After long moments, the warrior-smith said, ‘I was born a slave. In the chattel-pens of the Furnace Kings. You know of them?’
Ahazian nodded. ‘They forged weapons and armour for the servants of the Dark Gods, before the Azyrites cast down the Bale-Furnace and scattered its rulers. Stunted brutes. Like duardin, but twisted and cruel.’ He grinned around a mouthful of orruk. ‘They made good blades, though. There are warlords who’ll trade a thousand slaves for just one axe forged by the Furnace Kings"
Excerpt from the Spear of Shadows. It could just be figurative, but it sounds like the Furnace Kings weren't really dwarfs. Though it could be like saying Kruleboyz aren't ironjaws, hobgrots aren't gloomspite, etc.
I wonder how they'd even work, given they're probably chaos, and hobgrots are currently destruction.
Kanluwen wrote: Gee, it's almost like GW knows that and has been using playtesters/tournament names with followings for a reason...
Considering people figured out that their advice is just as generic and terrible as Warhammer Community's usual fare almost immediately, it isn't helping.
Well the meta-watch articles at least get stats right and while most may not give GOOD advice they certainly don't give awful advice either. Unlike every army preview that has people suggesting rally is the best thing since sliced bread when it is actually a situational tool that does quite poorly in terms of general use.
GaroRobe wrote: "The Skullgrinder would speak when it suited him, and not before. After long moments, the warrior-smith said, ‘I was born a slave. In the chattel-pens of the Furnace Kings. You know of them?’
Ahazian nodded. ‘They forged weapons and armour for the servants of the Dark Gods, before the Azyrites cast down the Bale-Furnace and scattered its rulers. Stunted brutes. Like duardin, but twisted and cruel.’ He grinned around a mouthful of orruk. ‘They made good blades, though. There are warlords who’ll trade a thousand slaves for just one axe forged by the Furnace Kings"
Excerpt from the Spear of Shadows. It could just be figurative, but it sounds like the Furnace Kings weren't really dwarfs. Though it could be like saying Kruleboyz aren't ironjaws, hobgrots aren't gloomspite, etc.
I wonder how they'd even work, given they're probably chaos, and hobgrots are currently destruction.
Not sure if there's any precedent for that kind of thing at this time, but I think hobgoblins would just get a Chaos warcsroll and a Destruction warscroll and you use the one that fits your army's allegiance. No real difference except for keywords.
The other option is that the current hobgoblins are specifically for Destruction and those associated with Chaos dwarfs get a kit of their own, which naturally gets them the necessary Chaos affiliated warscroll.
As for that description, I'd say it's just some dude who's not a biology professor talking of dwarfs in a way that matches his experience. With dwarfs usually being of the Order kind and those being the ones usually met in battle, he's characterizing Furnace Kings culturally rather than biologically, which is enough to make them stand apart from run of the mill dwarfs.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Are they like the 40k ones where they defined objectives as 40mm in the rules and the new associated objective set comes with 50mm bases?
The kit is comprised of 28 plastic components, with which you can assemble six objective markers, and is supplied with 3x Citadel 50mm Round Bases, 1x Citadel 75mm Oval Base, 1x Citadel 90mm Oval Base, and 1x Citadel 80mm Round Base.
In AoS you measure from the centre of the objectives base so the size of the base doesn't matter. You could disregard the supplied bases and use bigger or smaller bases - control is measured 6" from the centre of the base so you could build a whole diorama on a 12" diameter base if you want.
18.1 OBJECTIVE MARKERS
The battleplan being used for a battle will show or explain how objectives are placed (see 28.2.3). When measuring distances to and from objectives, always measure to and from the centre of the objective marker.
Galas wrote: And as much as people says that marines are only popular because GW gives them atention, GW tried to make stormcast the new marines and failed
Yes and no. It's important to note that the way GW treats Stormcast and Marines is very different. AoS started out very much with the same marketing ideas - all stories about stormcast; stormcast front and centre; chambers which were clearly originally designed to mirror marine chapters and the like. However GW also bungled the launch of AoS in many other ways. Once they turned around their attitudes they also dropped the marine style marketing for Stormcast. Basically one reason Marines outsell everything else in 40K is that for a long time GW's marketing focused very very heavily upon marines only. AoS has a totally different marketing strategy and whilst Stormcast are still core and still appear in the boxed set, they are very much just one of many marketed factions in the game.
Though yes when Marines alone can be 40% of total company sales on their own, any boxed set with brand new models for them is going to really sell powerfully well.
Something that's always worth pointing out with regards to Marines is how easy it is to just play "counts as" whenever a new book/hot new strategy drops.
The jokes about Blue Space Wolves or Green Ultramarines had a start from that.
Becca hasn't done a GW video since the WarCry and Apocalypse videos in 2019. Apparently something happened in 2020 that kept her from doing more videos for GW. I wonder what that could be
Well GW did something right in my books for that. The exaggerated cheeriness and over emphasising the ennnd of everrry, sentencceeee *Smirks at camera* made for bad viewing imo.
Well GW did something right in my books for that. The exaggerated cheeriness and over emphasising the ennnd of everrry, sentencceeee *Smirks at camera* made for bad viewing imo.
It gave a very "borderline farsical over-the-top Cyberpunk Megacorp ad" feel to them
CMLR wrote: Monday: International store still has stock for all languages for Dominion.
We truly are living on unprecedent times. Maybe even The End Times.
Are we sure they are not just lying and this is actually a masked made to order release?
Likely? Apparently they’ve told retailers to expect their preorders divvied up over up to three waves of deliveries, which of course has made many of them less than pleased.
GW have hit most armies with point hikes. They are basically reshaping the game with fewer models at the 2K point. Which pairs well with drawing in new customers and making it fit smaller table sizes as suggested by their new game boards they are selling.
So its a marketing move, but a smart one since game bloat can be a huge issue for wargames at pushing out new people. Of course this doesn't stop you using bigger forces; you just need to have 3K or bigger games.
Considering 40K has Apoc I do wonder if GW will release an equivalent AoS system
Kanluwen wrote: Gee, it's almost like GW knows that and has been using playtesters/tournament names with followings for a reason...
Considering people figured out that their advice is just as generic and terrible as Warhammer Community's usual fare almost immediately, it isn't helping.
Well the meta-watch articles at least get stats right and while most may not give GOOD advice they certainly don't give awful advice either. Unlike every army preview that has people suggesting rally is the best thing since sliced bread when it is actually a situational tool that does quite poorly in terms of general use.
Unless you took 30 Pink Horrors. I wonder how many days are gonna get ruined before that gets errata'd away.
Overread wrote: GW have hit most armies with point hikes. They are basically reshaping the game with fewer models at the 2K point. Which pairs well with drawing in new customers and making it fit smaller table sizes as suggested by their new game boards they are selling.
So its a marketing move, but a smart one since game bloat can be a huge issue for wargames at pushing out new people. Of course this doesn't stop you using bigger forces; you just need to have 3K or bigger games.
Considering 40K has Apoc I do wonder if GW will release an equivalent AoS system
Apoc was dropped like it was radioactive the week it released. Why would GW do the same with AoS? They don't seem to want to do it with 40k.
Also these whole "Oh hey they are totally reducing army sizes. That's truly the plan. This is really what they are doing. Honest" when we all know these point changes will last, uh, five months?
Cronch wrote: They better boost the crossbows nicely to leave only 10pts gap between them and archers, is all I'm saying.
That whole book needs a top down, warscroll by warscroll rewrite. It's 3 (now 4) battletomes all mushed together with no thought put into how it's supposed to function as a cohesive force.
Kanluwen wrote: Gee, it's almost like GW knows that and has been using playtesters/tournament names with followings for a reason...
Considering people figured out that their advice is just as generic and terrible as Warhammer Community's usual fare almost immediately, it isn't helping.
Well the meta-watch articles at least get stats right and while most may not give GOOD advice they certainly don't give awful advice either. Unlike every army preview that has people suggesting rally is the best thing since sliced bread when it is actually a situational tool that does quite poorly in terms of general use.
Unless you took 30 Pink Horrors. I wonder how many days are gonna get ruined before that gets errata'd away.
I will wait for the day-1 FAQ before passing judgement, though in the meantime they are at least restricted by the core rule that units cannot go above starting size; a unit of 30 pinks that has X killed can only out down X blues, not 2X.
H.B.M.C. wrote: More likely that AoS isn't anywhere near as popular as 40k.
True and truen't. Greenskins are still something people would've liked. 40K is the most popular product, but AoS has to be pretty much underground to not sell.
H.B.M.C. wrote: More likely that AoS isn't anywhere near as popular as 40k.
True and truen't. Greenskins are still something people would've liked. 40K is the most popular product, but AoS has to be pretty much underground to not sell.
40k-style Greenskinz, maybe the AoS version is not quite as popular
Overread wrote: GW have hit most armies with point hikes. They are basically reshaping the game with fewer models at the 2K point. Which pairs well with drawing in new customers and making it fit smaller table sizes as suggested by their new game boards they are selling.
So its a marketing move, but a smart one since game bloat can be a huge issue for wargames at pushing out new people. Of course this doesn't stop you using bigger forces; you just need to have 3K or bigger games.
Considering 40K has Apoc I do wonder if GW will release an equivalent AoS system
Uuhh...yes i know. Stormcast already got hit by point hikes in new ghb. Now in battletome old ones got even bigger ones and new ones got point drop.
Ghb comes in 3.7. Old stuff got point hike up,new units added. New battletome comes same month,old ones get even higher additional hike and new ones get drop. First hike was scaling size down. Second one is either significant warscroll change or push to get people buy the new models to replace overpriced old models.
They are almost certainly getting better stats in the new tome though. Besides the whole 'new stuff op' is nonsense anyways. When was the last time Sacrosanct was the dominant SCE build?
well, you have the sequitors which were plain upgrade over liberators, and evocators which were better than every unit of paladins, and the dracoline riders better than the dracoths, and the only place it wasn't true was heroes, cause SCE had trash heroes to start with.
Mr Morden wrote: Probably getting OT but why did she need to fly over to do them? Couldn't they ship the stuff over to her to make a vid?
She used the studio's painted examples, which they probably didn't want to ship, and she often did videos with other members of the Warhammer TV team (like Duncan and Peachy).
Kanluwen wrote: Gee, it's almost like GW knows that and has been using playtesters/tournament names with followings for a reason...
Considering people figured out that their advice is just as generic and terrible as Warhammer Community's usual fare almost immediately, it isn't helping.
Well the meta-watch articles at least get stats right and while most may not give GOOD advice they certainly don't give awful advice either. Unlike every army preview that has people suggesting rally is the best thing since sliced bread when it is actually a situational tool that does quite poorly in terms of general use.
Unless you took 30 Pink Horrors. I wonder how many days are gonna get ruined before that gets errata'd away.
I will wait for the day-1 FAQ before passing judgement, though in the meantime they are at least restricted by the core rule that units cannot go above starting size; a unit of 30 pinks that has X killed can only out down X blues, not 2X.
Mr Morden wrote: Probably getting OT but why did she need to fly over to do them? Couldn't they ship the stuff over to her to make a vid?
She used the studio's painted examples, which they probably didn't want to ship, and she often did videos with other members of the Warhammer TV team (like Duncan and Peachy).
She works as an actress and does a lot of stuff outside of GW. Seems she's maybe based in LA? Dunno.
Could have been a million reasons why they stopped working with her, it's not like she was doing videos alone out of her basement, she had a production crew and maybe local restrictions stopped her doing them, or maybe GW thought she was too expensive, or maybe she had other job offers that conflicted, or maybe GW picked up that people found her "how to plays" annoying, maybe she thought it was going to give her more exposure than it did so she turned down further offers. Who knows. She hasn't just abandoned the nerd community or anything like that though, she still does streaming RPGs, board game reviews, how to plays, etc on her own YT channel.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or, as we said, something happened in the world that prevented long-distance travel.
But that's probably crazy talk...
I mean, this is Dakka, HBMC - completely plausible theories based on real-world events and government policies are far too unlikely to be the real cause...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or, as we said, something happened in the world that prevented long-distance travel.
But that's probably crazy talk...
I was just offering alternative explanations to the "Why didn't they just ship it to her" thing.
They could have sent her a few bits and pieces and worked with her over zoom to develop a script and if they really desperately wanted to use the one set of studio models and didn't want to ship them or pay someone to paint an alternate set, they could have just filmed those bits in the UK and combined the model footage with footage filmed by her crew in the US.
I don't think any of that would have been much harder than pre-covid days of flying her out for a few days to film, either in terms of logistics or overall expense.
lare2 wrote: Interestingly Hunters aren't listed as Battleline, which do require a general to unlock.
There's some speculation that they are being renamed into Vanquishers. IMO, it has some credibility with the SC set getting retired for Vanguard and two of the three Vanguard kits(Palladors and Hunters) have been Direct Only for over the past year.
I would genuinely not be shocked if that were the case seeing those points, seeing as they were 120 points in the most recent battletome.
Cronch wrote: well, you have the sequitors which were plain upgrade over liberators, and evocators which were better than every unit of paladins, and the dracoline riders better than the dracoths, and the only place it wasn't true was heroes, cause SCE had trash heroes to start with.
An artfully done avoidance of the question, though still extremely disingenuous unless someone is balancing via wounds count.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or, as we said, something happened in the world that prevented long-distance travel.
But that's probably crazy talk...
I mean, this is Dakka, HBMC - completely plausible theories based on real-world events and government policies are far too unlikely to be the real cause...
I think we all wish that was just a Dakka thing...
Motograter wrote: My local store couldn't sell dominion and ended up selling at cost (£85) just to get his money back. It seems to be doing rather poorly
And yet we are not even half way through the pre-order. I can't help but feel shops already selling "at cost" are going into panic mode a bit early. As a new edition box all the contents will remain viable for quite a few years (ergo the rules). Meanwhile the models are GW models; they generally only go one way with value and that is up. It's rare things come down in price so they'd also be fairly safe.
Granted if your store is right on the knife edge of finances they might have to sell at cost to release money ;but still its a 2 week pre-order and a boxed set that should be viable for a few years before the rules are replaced. So it should be a safe product to slow sell.
AoS is big but not as big as marines and 40K; but its still one of the biggest fantasy model lines out there in the market. Still perhaps stores selling at cost locally will encourage more local growth so its a short term loss but a long term gain
Motograter wrote: My local store couldn't sell dominion and ended up selling at cost (£85) just to get his money back. It seems to be doing rather poorly
Is judging sales just from pre-orders normal business practice nowadays? I mean, the box isn't even out yet for another ~10 days ... well, we're living in a FOMO world, I guess ...
Motograter wrote: My local store couldn't sell dominion and ended up selling at cost (£85) just to get his money back. It seems to be doing rather poorly
What store? I'm sure some of the folks who live in the UK on the Stormcast FB page would love this info.
Motograter wrote: My local store couldn't sell dominion and ended up selling at cost (£85) just to get his money back. It seems to be doing rather poorly
He's going to really feel bad when he only gets a partial order in because they sold so well everywhere else. Seriously why sell it at cost when he probably could contact GW and say please cut back my order.
Interestingly, all the local online shops still have it available to pre-order. They either produced a shedload, or the box had not much draw to it (which tbh I'm thinking might be the case- stormcast are never the big seller judging by how much hits ebay/swap groups immediately after, and the drab, weirdly lumpy orcs were the least inspired design AoS came up with to date, imo at least).
It might also be that the lack of things selling out has more people on the fence than Indomitus where everyone went nuts. Yet even after Indomitus "sold out" it was easy to find both new and split stock for several months after (and before the second wave shipped)
Methinks it was this one he was referring too. And has since sold out, because apparently not instantly selling out on the first day is a reason to cut your profit?
You know, I thought it was an apologist strawman when someone defended the underprinting of Cursed City et al. by saying complainers would try to paint a release not selling out in day 1 as a failure... but it looks like some are actually trying
I don't give a gak about GW's feelings but I'm effin happy that when I play in store and someone asks how to get into the game I can point at Dominion, stil there on the shelf, and say Grab that, best value for money.
I'm not sure why your all getting your knickers in a twist over what I did. I took a calculated gamble and bought 60 Dominions. Monday morning only 23 sold and gamble hadn't paid off.
I didn't buy it to sell 1, 2 or 3 copies a week and have it taking up an awful lot of room and a lot of cash, I bought it to sell 40-50 over Sat-Sun then I can quite happily sit on the remaining boxes for the rest of the pre-order period and release. If it was gonna sell it would have mostly all gone on Sat. It didn't so I set about recouping my investment.
I've sold it all now with just a few corebooks left so I'm happy and can now go about reinvesting that money into other things.
Or the two armies. Despite the best efforts of GW's marketers literally every edition release to try to turn Stormcast into Space Marines as the faction that everybody and their mother has multiple armies worth of, it's never worked.
DiscoKing wrote: I'm not sure why your all getting your knickers in a twist over what I did. I took a calculated gamble and bought 60 Dominions. Monday morning only 23 sold and gamble hadn't paid off.
I didn't buy it to sell 1, 2 or 3 copies a week and have it taking up an awful lot of room and a lot of cash, I bought it to sell 40-50 over Sat-Sun then I can quite happily sit on the remaining boxes for the rest of the pre-order period and release. If it was gonna sell it would have mostly all gone on Sat. It didn't so I set about recouping my investment.
I've sold it all now with just a few corebooks left so I'm happy and can now go about reinvesting that money into other things.
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Some fanboys just get really defensive about AoS.
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yukishiro1 wrote: Or the two armies. Despite the best efforts of GW's marketers literally every edition release to try to turn Stormcast into Space Marines as the faction that everybody and their mother has multiple armies worth of, it's never worked.
From a business standpoint I don't see the problem with pushing Stormcast, what army in AoS would do better?
DiscoKing wrote: I'm not sure why your all getting your knickers in a twist over what I did. I took a calculated gamble and bought 60 Dominions. Monday morning only 23 sold and gamble hadn't paid off.
I didn't buy it to sell 1, 2 or 3 copies a week and have it taking up an awful lot of room and a lot of cash, I bought it to sell 40-50 over Sat-Sun then I can quite happily sit on the remaining boxes for the rest of the pre-order period and release. If it was gonna sell it would have mostly all gone on Sat. It didn't so I set about recouping my investment.
I've sold it all now with just a few corebooks left so I'm happy and can now go about reinvesting that money into other things.
Some people just don't understand the margins that an FLGs runs on and think they should sit on stock for an age or never take a risk and that their business will somehow thrive, despite all evidence to the contrary. Don't take it amiss.
DiscoKing wrote: I'm not sure why your all getting your knickers in a twist over what I did. I took a calculated gamble and bought 60 Dominions. Monday morning only 23 sold and gamble hadn't paid off.
I didn't buy it to sell 1, 2 or 3 copies a week and have it taking up an awful lot of room and a lot of cash, I bought it to sell 40-50 over Sat-Sun then I can quite happily sit on the remaining boxes for the rest of the pre-order period and release. If it was gonna sell it would have mostly all gone on Sat. It didn't so I set about recouping my investment.
I've sold it all now with just a few corebooks left so I'm happy and can now go about reinvesting that money into other things.
Some people just don't understand the margins that an FLGs runs on and think they should sit on stock for an age or never take a risk and that their business will somehow thrive, despite all evidence to the contrary. Don't take it amiss.
An FLGS might be sitting on slim margins, but doing a big discount on your prerelease boxes literally three days after they first went up for preorder seems a bit preemptive.
This might have been a good opportunity for the store to push some Age of Sigmar demo days about a week before preorder goes up. Have some fully painted armies, offer lessons on how to play the game, let potential customers know that there's a big new edition coming with two full armies included and offer them 10% off the box if they preorder then and there.
Goose LeChance wrote: Anyone who was expecting Dominion to be a repeat of Indomitus clearly has no idea of the popularity gap between the two games.
Also, people actually know now that despite rumormongering to the contrary--it's more likely than not that the items in the box are going to see a separate release.
That was a big driver of Indomitus' sales. The constant hype from places like BoLS, Faeit, and indie shops that "once the boxes are gone, the models are too".
In person stuff is on really shaky ground right now. The UK is broadly heading for another lockdown (heck based on the numbers we should be locked down right now but we aren't). I know a lot of stores are opening an hour later and closing an hour early because there isn't the footfall traffic unless you're a supermarket supplying food - ergo 100% essential. Most of the non-essential stores are operating less than normal hours and even some food stores are doing less here and there.
Right now is a really bad time to push for new gamers and foot fall coming in store. At least that's my impression. Current customers/gamers appear more willing to take the risks in general; but they are already invested.
Overread wrote: In person stuff is on really shaky ground right now. The UK is broadly heading for another lockdown (heck based on the numbers we should be locked down right now but we aren't). I know a lot of stores are opening an hour later and closing an hour early because there isn't the footfall traffic unless you're a supermarket supplying food - ergo 100% essential. Most of the non-essential stores are operating less than normal hours and even some food stores are doing less here and there.
Right now is a really bad time to push for new gamers and foot fall coming in store. At least that's my impression. Current customers/gamers appear more willing to take the risks in general; but they are already invested.
Ah, you're absolutely right. I apologize, that hadn't occurred to me in the moment.
Yep in a normal year I'd agree with you that having lots of nice starter boxes is a great way to tempt people in when they are new and stepping in through the door. Which might well be one impact stores are having to deal with. Whlist we know GW doubled sales last year, it might be more return and current customers spending more rather than fresh blood.
Fresh blood are more likely to get default starter sets because they don't have pre-existing attachments and concepts so a starter works; meanwhile established people (and honestly those more likely to do self research online and such) are more likely to only want certain products. So if the starter set hasn't got them it has instantly far less value to them.
yukishiro1 wrote: Or the two armies. Despite the best efforts of GW's marketers literally every edition release to try to turn Stormcast into Space Marines as the faction that everybody and their mother has multiple armies worth of, it's never worked.
From a business standpoint I don't see the problem with pushing Stormcast, what army in AoS would do better?
It's probably the best, but the point is that Stormcast don't occupy nearly such a dominant position in AOS as SM do in 40k, so there is no faction you can put in the starter set that is guaranteed to appeal to 40% or more of the player base.
One of the best things about AOS is that it isn't a case of every second army being Stormcast. But that does mean that the appeal of the new edition sets is less than in 40k.
I can’t remember if we’d seen stuff that was coming for Necrons and SM after Indomitus by this point when Indomitus was up for preorder, but seeing what else was coming for Kruleboyz, a bit more about where they sit in Warclanz and what else is coming for the Stormcast may have improved sales a bit too. I know personally my resolve would have been lower had I seen the rumoured giant crocodile model for the Kruleboyz, as an example.
yukishiro1 wrote: Or the two armies. Despite the best efforts of GW's marketers literally every edition release to try to turn Stormcast into Space Marines as the faction that everybody and their mother has multiple armies worth of, it's never worked.
From a business standpoint I don't see the problem with pushing Stormcast, what army in AoS would do better?
It's probably the best, but the point is that Stormcast don't occupy nearly such a dominant position in AOS as SM do in 40k, so there is no faction you can put in the starter set that is guaranteed to appeal to 40% or more of the player base.
One of the best things about AOS is that it isn't a case of every second army being Stormcast. But that does mean that the appeal of the new edition sets is less than in 40k.
I was hoping that Lumineth – or some new aelvish army addition – was going to take the "good guy" spot this time around. Elf armies have more connection to classical fantasy tropes and LOTR fandom and I could see them being an easier sell than the Sigmarines. That said, trying to bootstrap a Space Marine equivalent makes sense from a narrative and business POV. I think it's worth remembering that AOS is just entering its sixth year and it's fourth with serious rules. It's hard to build up serious loyalty to an army in that short a period and I can't fault them for continuing to invest in it. My preference would be for them to be a bit more experimental, and I believe that the playbook that worked 25 years ago may not port as cleanly into the modern market, but they're the pros and the models look nice...
yukishiro1 wrote: One of the best things about AOS is that it isn't a case of every second army being Stormcast. But that does mean that the appeal of the new edition sets is less than in 40k.
and if GW would not try to push them, having different armies in the starter like in good old days would appeal to more people
because here the SCE players are not that hyped on again new models for their already large army that will be medicore at best with the next update
in WHFB we had Elves VS Goblins, Bretonnia VS Lizards, Imperium VS Orks, Dwarfs VS Goblins and Elves VS Skaven, while in 40k it was always Marines and it worked (but also because even Chaos could use the generic Marines and there was more than 1 Marine faction, while SCE are special models not generic ones)
for AoS it would have worked better if the new Starters would use a different faction instead of SCE, even Chaos VS Destruction would have worked (I imagine that a Chaos-Dwarf VS Orks Box would have generated much more hype here)
streetsamurai wrote: There was a foggy panorama pic where we saw a lot, if not all, of the future stuff for both army
Gw showed a clearer picture of the leak that contained the monolith and the Void Dragon. It definitely increased the hype for Indomitus. Before Soul Wars came out GW had already shown most of the new ranges including the black coach.
With Dominion we only know about the two ETB kits and with it being a subfaction of warclans, there are people who think that's all we're getting.
A lot of people like a centrepiece to build the army around. We still don't know what a full Kruleboyz army will look like. Is it really going to be just the one battleline unit? What about cavalry?There are rumours of a giant crocodile. Seeing something like that would persuade a lot of people to buy a Kruleboyz army.
Also I think that faction is a bit more Marmite than Necrons or Nighthaunt. Both of those were almost universally loved.
I don't have a lot of voice in this discussion, as I really only play skirmish games (might pick up AoS 3.0 at some point), but I for one, am pretty happy that the launch box hasn't sold out. It's nice to give people an opportunity to pick it up that are just deciding to get into AoS, or who don't have the extra money laying around on preorder day.
If it could be available over the summer I would say GW did a pretty good job producing this as a launch box. While this product is clearly not a starter set, having a deal box bundle around for more than a single day of preorders is awesome. Limited time deals are fine, but when that limited time is five minutes on preorder day, they are certainly not so fine.
streetsamurai wrote: There was a foggy panorama pic where we saw a lot, if not all, of the future stuff for both army
Gw showed a clearer picture of the leak that contained the monolith and the Void Dragon. It definitely increased the hype for Indomitus. Before Soul Wars came out GW had already shown most of the new ranges including the black coach.
With Dominion we only know about the two ETB kits and with it being a subfaction of warclans, there are people who think that's all we're getting.
A lot of people like a centrepiece to build the army around. We still don't know what a full Kruleboyz army will look like. Is it really going to be just the one battleline unit? What about cavalry?There are rumours of a giant crocodile. Seeing something like that would persuade a lot of people to buy a Kruleboyz army.
Also I think that faction is a bit more Marmite than Necrons or Nighthaunt. Both of those were almost universally loved.
That pretty much matches my take.
Unless you believe that the original hazy Necron army picture was purposefully leaked by GW, the marketing for Indomitus was pretty similar to Dominion with a couple of ETB kits per faction previewed to showcase there was more stuff coming. But I seem to recall Necrons getting most of their buzz from that leaked picture and all the shiny new (big centerpiece) models in it. That would have given the box a boost. Marines certainly don't need the extra help, but there were a fair few people delighted to buy into the Necron side as a start to an army with all that cool other stuff.
GW is marketing Dominion a lot more conservatively and doesn't give people interested in either faction much to get excited about beyond what's actually in the box. For an aesthetic redo of an existing army and an entirely new army (let's not forget Kruleboyz look nothing like Warhammer Orcs as they have been portrayed for over two decades now) I think that's not a clever choice because they already have to get past lack of investment on the customers' part. Purposely curbing excitement on top of that is a mistake in my opinion.
Sabotage! wrote: I don't have a lot of voice in this discussion, as I really only play skirmish games (might pick up AoS 3.0 at some point), but I for one, am pretty happy that the launch box hasn't sold out. It's nice to give people an opportunity to pick it up that are just deciding to get into AoS, or who don't have the extra money laying around on preorder day.
If it could be available over the summer I would say GW did a pretty good job producing this as a launch box. While this product is clearly not a starter set, having a deal box bundle around for more than a single day of preorders is awesome. Limited time deals are fine, but when that limited time is five minutes on preorder day, they are certainly not so fine.
Agreed, it's a good thing the box is still available.
I don't think GW wants it to hang around all summer, though. We should expect the AoS release to mirror 40k, which means by the end of July they want to start selling the regular starter sets. I think they'd rather not want people to see the launch box and the starter boxes side by side and be able to compare contents and value in the moment.
For an aesthetic redo of an existing army and an entirely new army (let's not forget Kruleboyz look nothing like Warhammer Orcs as they have been portrayed for over two decades now) I think that's not a clever choice because they already have to get past lack of investment on the customers' part. Purposely curbing excitement on top of that is a mistake in my opinion.
I actually think they are trying to get new people in with them. I know a few people who have stayed away from Warhammer who are now suddenly showing interest due to the Kruleboys. Some of them appear to love the new LotR aesthetics of the new orcs.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wait, people unironically believe the blurry leaks AREN'T from GW themselves? I thought that was a joke, given how obvious it is
I think a lot of people remember the Kirby days where, yes, we did get real blurry leaks from real leakers and stuff because that was our only source of news outside of a whitedwarf issue or a release every few months. GW back then didn't really do any communicating with fans online at all and didn't really give much info out early either. With releases being more focused on the big release approach so you could go months without any news or hint. Then suddenly a week or two before release there'd be a big amount of marketing; boom the release then nothing much after that.
It was a very different time.
Today GW gives us a 3 month window for releases so we see far less leaking; there's no point leaking what people already know is coming and because people know its coming any leak does far less "damage" to GW's marketing system. Doing a few of their own leaks now and then also lets them mess with that system. IT reduces any potential marketing damage from any real leaks that might happen.
And we do still get them; heck a Slaanesh sprue for the fiend made it into an ebay store by accident (that is unless you believe GW setup a whole ebay store with a long trading history just for that marketing). So stuff does still leak out; however GW is more likely to roll with those than fight them like they used too. Heck I recall when GW was sending takedown and copyright demands to news sites publishing leaks.
For an aesthetic redo of an existing army and an entirely new army (let's not forget Kruleboyz look nothing like Warhammer Orcs as they have been portrayed for over two decades now) I think that's not a clever choice because they already have to get past lack of investment on the customers' part. Purposely curbing excitement on top of that is a mistake in my opinion.
I actually think they are trying to get new people in with them. I know a few people who have stayed away from Warhammer who are now suddenly showing interest due to the Kruleboys. Some of them appear to love the new LotR aesthetics of the new orcs.
I don't really want to speculate on GW's motives, but if we accepted Kruleboyz as an attempt to get people in with a new aesthetic (which isn't hard to be honest - they look cool enough), I have to wonder why they specifically needed to be sold as a kind of orc. Is there some non-negligible demographic out there that's really into this particular style of armor, clothing and weaponry that would jump ship and refuse to deal with AoS the moment they found out that that these aren't swamp orcs but are in fact swamp norgs?
I can't help but wonder what GW is thinking when they specifically want orcs for whatever reason, but then go out of their way to make them look nothing like orcs, while the established orc aesthetic is kept and happily coexists alongside the new one. Especially when one of the selling points of AoS is the new and expandable setting that has no inherent need for this particular faction to be a kind of orc. AoS isn't weighed down by three decades of background that sets certain expectations, and unlike the other Grand Alliances, Destruction hasn't seen any noteworthy design focus yet that would lay the foundations for such expectations.
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
I can't help but wonder what GW is thinking when they specifically want orcs for whatever reason, but then go out of their way to make them look nothing like orcs, while the established orc aesthetic is kept and happily coexists alongside the new one.
Eh? Greenskins were a big bucket faction, from way back, with lots of variants and variations, not just a specific look of 'orcs.'
This is actually a great move away from the way they've artificially limited the pool. Its something new for people who want that, something that evokes Tolkien and D&D for people who want that, and goes back and evokes classic Warhammer looks and models for people who want that. Its a winning move all the way around.
Many people would be surprised by how many AoS "omg thats no warhammer at all!" factions are inspired by really, really old warhammer , more wacky stuff.
I can't help but wonder what GW is thinking when they specifically want orcs for whatever reason, but then go out of their way to make them look nothing like orcs, while the established orc aesthetic is kept and happily coexists alongside the new one.
Eh? Greenskins were a big bucket faction, from way back, with lots of variants and variations, not just a specific look of 'orcs.'
Since the post you quote is a follow up to the one in which I was specifically talking about the orc look of the last twenty years and a bit, no, I have to disagree. An orc's an orc and a goblin's a goblin (with the possible exception of a spider eyed mutant on the Arachnarok?). Taste in attire and fashion, that's where you got your differences. Anatomically, there were no distinct sub-groups of orcs.
Orcs in the way, way back wasn't what I was talking about.
Voss wrote: This is actually a great move away from the way they've artificially limited the pool. Its something new for people who want that, something that evokes Tolkien and D&D for people who want that, and goes back and evokes classic Warhammer looks and models for people who want that. Its a winning move all the way around.
Yes, it's always a great move for people who don't like the current thing and wish it wasn't what it is. Good for them, too, for getting what they want.
Doesn't help people who like the current thing just the way it is.
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
And if they expanded Order, would you rather have a fifth faction of elves or something that isn't represented in the super-faction yet? That's all I'm saying.
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
I see CGI orcs from the Hobbit movies, not LoTR. Especially their lemon-sucking faces.
Galas wrote: Many people would be surprised by how many AoS "omg thats no warhammer at all!" factions are inspired by really, really old warhammer , more wacky stuff.
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
And trees - lots and lots of trees
Very angry trees that resent civilization. Would have probably been better off in Destruction. The impression I'm getting is that GW views Order as civilization and Destruction as natural order.
Of course the Grand Alliances have been somewhat dodgy from the start, so...
Goose LeChance wrote: I see CGI orcs from the Hobbit movies, not LoTR. Especially their lemon-sucking faces.
Galas wrote: Many people would be surprised by how many AoS "omg thats no warhammer at all!" factions are inspired by really, really old warhammer , more wacky stuff.
Is going back to wacky 80s design a good thing?
Leaving aside the natural superiority of everything created in the 80s, I'd say that's really dependent on what's brought back, how and to which audience.
A lot of people have expressed their desire to see Fimir return prior to the reveal of the Kruleboyz. The 40k model range is a lot better off after we got Genestealer Cults. Good models by themselves, good models for conversions, more options to choose from - there's really no downside. Mk. VII power armor has been the standard for a very, very long time before the Primaris overhaul. Yet the Horus Heresy thread is quite positive at the prospect of getting actual Mk. VI models.
On the other hand, a lot of people liked the early 2000s lesser daemons and the subsequent return to the the earlier designs when they got their plastic overhaul wasn't universally greeted.
In my experience the rough guideline for these things is that the more successful GW has been with an intermediate design getting it ingrained in its customers, the harder it's been to revisit older designs that have their own merits but aren't that really cool thing that gets replaced or added to.
Galas wrote: Many people would be surprised by how many AoS "omg thats no warhammer at all!" factions are inspired by really, really old warhammer , more wacky stuff.
Is going back to wacky 80s design a good thing?
Is completely subjetive, specially when they are tacking those designs as inspiration and modernizing them. But they are warhammer nonetheless.
Old, new, inspired, derivative etc at the end of the day it boils down if it works for you or not, today.
As much as I love some of the oldest stuff I never really liked the take on Lotr plastics for green skins, they looked so boring, uninspired and not unique.
The dominion orcs look a bit pants since they are errr lotr plastics boring. Since they re 50% of the minis its kind off-putting.
But thats just me and the reason its something I will look into later rather than a must buy now.
Theres something to be said about minis aesthetics growing up on you the more you look at them, but heck the more I see these orcs the less I like them.
Haters gunna hate. Dominion sells out and it isn't because AoS is popular it's because GW didn't produce enough, Dominion doesn't sell out and it's not because GW did produce enough it's because AoS isn't popular.
Oh and ONE store decides to dump stock at cost for a product that hasn't even released yet and that counts as evidence for the whole thing. My flgs' main concern is not having enough stock to fill all the pre orders, at full price no less, does that mean it's selling out and GW didn't produce enough?
I’m semi-tempted, mostly because of the token set.
See, I don’t play either of the armies. I’m Ossiarchs and Squigs. I’ve nothing against the armies in the set, or indeed the set itself.
Perhaps part of the issue is that AoS doesn’t have a dominant faction the way 40k does.]
Stormcast are of course popular, but not to the one sided degree Marines are in 40K.
I think I might plump for it, and flog off the models for whatever I can get for them. Maybe donate the SC special character to My Well Good At Painting Mage.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
If anything Seraphon are by far the more extreme individuals in Order - you can compare the Stormcasts to Paladins all you like, Seraphon are the extremists who take it to the next level and don't care who falls by the wayside for it.
NAVARRO wrote: Old, new, inspired, derivative etc at the end of the day it boils down if it works for you or not, today.
As much as I love some of the oldest stuff I never really liked the take on Lotr plastics for green skins, they looked so boring, uninspired and not unique.
The dominion orcs look a bit pants since they are errr lotr plastics boring. Since they re 50% of the minis its kind off-putting.
But thats just me and the reason its something I will look into later rather than a must buy now.
Theres something to be said about minis aesthetics growing up on you the more you look at them, but heck the more I see these orcs the less I like them.
Yes lemon sucking face is the right name
It’s weird because I actually rather like the Kruleboyz sculpts, I just don’t like them as Warhammer Orc sculpts.
It’s weird because I actually rather like the Kruleboyz sculpts, I just don’t like them as Warhammer Orc sculpts.
I feel the same way with the caveat that I don't think Warhammer orcs technically exist anymore. Didn't they change the name of ever in AOS eventually?
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
If anything Seraphon are by far the more extreme individuals in Order - you can compare the Stormcasts to Paladins all you like, Seraphon are the extremists who take it to the next level and don't care who falls by the wayside for it.
An army of scaly space Robocop Lizards.
And this is why Seraphon are awesome. If anything, their new crazy lore makes me like them even more than before. I've even started painting bits to look like some of the necrons I'm painting, like the old blood on carnosaur gauntlet, and I'm going to be painting some of the "stone" on the models as blackstone.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
You pretty much summed up one AoS's biggest and most ubiquitous problems IMHO.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome.. .
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
Well said! Exalted this post.
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I'm actually convinced that once Warhammer; the Old World drops and we get new Greenskin sculpts with them, we will get the option to play them as normal Orruks. This is my tinfoil hat theory.
Gallahad wrote: Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
Seems a bit like poisoning the well.
I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.
I can't help but wonder what GW is thinking when they specifically want orcs for whatever reason, but then go out of their way to make them look nothing like orcs, while the established orc aesthetic is kept and happily coexists alongside the new one.
Eh? Greenskins were a big bucket faction, from way back, with lots of variants and variations, not just a specific look of 'orcs.'
Since the post you quote is a follow up to the one in which I was specifically talking about the orc look of the last twenty years and a bit, no, I have to disagree. An orc's an orc and a goblin's a goblin (with the possible exception of a spider eyed mutant on the Arachnarok?). Taste in attire and fashion, that's where you got your differences. Anatomically, there were no distinct sub-groups of orcs.
Orcs in the way, way back wasn't what I was talking about.
Voss wrote: This is actually a great move away from the way they've artificially limited the pool. Its something new for people who want that, something that evokes Tolkien and D&D for people who want that, and goes back and evokes classic Warhammer looks and models for people who want that. Its a winning move all the way around.
Yes, it's always a great move for people who don't like the current thing and wish it wasn't what it is. Good for them, too, for getting what they want.
Doesn't help people who like the current thing just the way it is.
You've lost me on your... Complaints? People who like 'the current thing' still have the current thing.
As for the anatomical stuff, you're simply demonstrably wrong. It just didn't matter on the models, simply because at that time, GW wasn't hyperfocused with bogging the game down with special rules for every little difference in look or gear.
The problem Orruks had in AoS was they wound up with 3 armies at the very start which were the same structure. Each one was orruks, with big bosses and scrappy fighter and boar riders and such.
Some were plain; some were more wild with bones and some were more armoured and chunky.
Thing was they were 3 separate forces with the same structure. It was messy so I wasn't surprised we lost at least one, though I was surprised to see them chuck out some of the newer models in that.
CruelBoyz are at least very different in design and structure. They are doing fresh different stuff which is what the AoS Orruks greatly needed
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.
Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.
And trees - lots and lots of trees
Very angry trees that resent civilization. Would have probably been better off in Destruction. The impression I'm getting is that GW views Order as civilization and Destruction as natural order.
Of course the Grand Alliances have been somewhat dodgy from the start, so...uccessful GW has been with an intermediate design getting it ingrained in its customers, the harder it's been to revisit older designs that have their own merits but aren't that really cool thing that gets replaced or added to.
Well some of the trees have their own civilisations as well or are part of others....they donlt like some kinds of polluting, devestating technology - see greywater fastness or skaven but they don't hate it all. Well some of them do but thats no different to the Old World. There is currently no Human Destruction factions....
The Grand Alliances are an interesting idea but there are quite a few subfactions that belong in more than one - so yeah some Sylvaneth would be quite a home with destruction (or death - there are undead Sylvaneth in the lore) but the Undead are also often builders of civiisations - sometimes even with mortals. I was hoping the rules for mercenaries Cities of Sigmar would be the start of more of this aspect of mixing stuff up (with counter restrictions)
Gallahad wrote: Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
Seems a bit like poisoning the well.
I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.
Rules =/= models though. I do believe that we'll get some eventual crossover with The Old World greenskins being used in multiple games. But at the moment, there aren't really "normal" orruks available to buy. The only thing that comes close is 'ard boyz, which used to be the elite orcs.
GaroRobe wrote: Rules =/= models though. I do believe that we'll get some eventual crossover with The Old World greenskins being used in multiple games. But at the moment, there aren't really "normal" orruks available to buy. The only thing that comes close is 'ard boyz, which used to be the elite orcs.
Dunno, to me the Kruleboyz are the closest to "normal orruks" like in WFB, simply because they can do something more than just hitting someone in the face.
We have ranged units and at least one artillery coming. Even some kind of trolls and bands of somewhat gobbos.
They just have a fancy name for copyright purpose. And I think we won't see "basic races" like before, for that very reason. But the spirit will be still there.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
Gallahad wrote: Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
Seems a bit like poisoning the well.
I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.
Indeed, I have never seen the viewpoint he spoke of expressed anywhere. AoS fans miss normal orks as much as everyone else.
Would be nice if they made bands of orruks for each Realm like they did for the Chaos warbands in Warcry.
'cause, in the end, a "generic orruk" from the Realm of Shy'ish would surely be quite different looking and have other customs than a "generic orruk" from the Realm of Ghyran.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I still want upgrade kits of 'realm bling' containing little bits that can be added to models to theme them.
See I think that is an ideal market option for GW.
I don't think kits for every realm for every race is in any way feasible (unless GW went for 3D printing at home). However generic upgrade kits and terrain features most certainly could be done. Heck even just a terrain themed base set per realm
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?
Cronch wrote: I imagine so, it never ceases to amaze me how people gravitate to Human Male Warrior classes and armies in games.
Because while some of us want to play fantastical races and beings and/or other people, some people just want to play a different or "better" version of themself and that's OK.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?
As the wise philosopher Syndrome said: "If everyone is super, then no one is".
Humans are comparative creatures, it's why each special orruk is explicitly compared to a baseline. But if the baseline doesn't actually exist, well it then it kinda makes a mess of the comparison. GW might have avoided this by explicitly excising normal boyz from the setting and making all the comparisons reflective of each other, but they very much did not. It's narratively confusing, if you care about the setting at all. Not every player does.
Destruction has (and kind of always had with orcs even in the old world) a lore problem. In that GW struggles to give them a coherent society and existence outside assaults on states. Destruction gets defined by being opposed to civilization, but it is made up of sapient, if very violent, creatures, that clearly build civilizations, and this is a tension that GW just, well, doesn't know how to reconcile. Also they're bad at portraying stateless societies.
I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.
Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.
I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?
Not having a pile of special rules is not the same as 'flavorless'
MajorWesJanson wrote: but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.
...so when are you going to post the illustrations of the different sub-species of orcs/orruks and their choppas with little handscrawled observations on what lead to the changes?
Yeah he just signed up to provide diagrams. Get choppin!
But anyways, some of us really do just want the baseline Orcs we had before. There was nothing wrong with them and they had a nice 'scrappy brawler' thing going.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome.. .
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
Well said! Exalted this post.
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
I won't do that, but I will say does there need to be a standard ork boy anymore?
Kruelboyz are sneaky, IronJawz are tough, Bonesplittaz are weird. Seems fine to me.
Pretty much that. You don't have Baseline Elf to know that idoneth are the sea vampire elves, the lumineth are the smug bastard elves and dok are the DoK are serpent elves. They exist perfectly fine without some sort of Basal Elf lineage.
Ironjawz are the armored orcs, Bonejaws are the vacationtime orcs, and now cruella boys are the dalmatians killed my mother orcs. Neither requires weakboys to exist to know what's up with them.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I'm actually convinced that once Warhammer; the Old World drops and we get new Greenskin sculpts with them, we will get the option to play them as normal Orruks. This is my tinfoil hat theory.
I mean that would indeed be the dream. I actually miss the old 19 orc box.
Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)
Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.
Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..
However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.
We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.
In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I do agree that it would be awesome to have a fantasy orc baseline. I mean, I am going to be buying Kruleboys and adding my own greenskins to the flock as a part of that force.
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Overread wrote: The problem Orruks had in AoS was they wound up with 3 armies at the very start which were the same structure. Each one was orruks, with big bosses and scrappy fighter and boar riders and such.
Some were plain; some were more wild with bones and some were more armoured and chunky.
Thing was they were 3 separate forces with the same structure. It was messy so I wasn't surprised we lost at least one, though I was surprised to see them chuck out some of the newer models in that.
CruelBoyz are at least very different in design and structure. They are doing fresh different stuff which is what the AoS Orruks greatly needed
I feel the issue was more that GW wanted to separate all the forces into distinct factions only to backtrack on it later and releasing the Orruks together. If they had done that from the start I imagine the Greenskins could have survived in a unified Orruk Warclans tome.
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AduroT wrote: I think high elves tend to be your baseline elves, Lumineth in this case.
After reading the Lumineth novel I think the Lumineth feel more like Star Trek's Vulcans than classical elves.
You’ve also got Sylvaneth as a sort of artificial/imitation elf, Alarielle making the tree people to resemble them, but without the old elf souls afaik.
Overread wrote: Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)
Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.
Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..
However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.
We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.
In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.
Lumineth were recovered from Slaanesh weren't they (recovered by Teclis)? As are the DoK(Morathis tithe for helping)?
I did always wonder where the old world style Elves came from if all the Elves were eaten
Overread wrote: Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)
And they'll probably be replaced by this Dawnthingo Crusade armies, as GW shuffle off the last of the legacy Warhammer minis that haven't found a home in a 'proper' faction.
So I'll spend more time going back and forth on whether I really need a unit of Phoenix Guard. I mean, I never even played Fantasy, and yet I want those minis...
And Lumineth makes me want to try AoS...
Basically what I'm saying is that I like High Elves and I wish there were more of their kits still around.
Well, we know AoS has a solid track history of tying model releases to the timeline. It’s not to everyone’s taste, but at least it stops the “wE wErE hErE aLl TeH tImE!” shoehorning 40K can suffer from.
Could be Dawnbringer Crusades are a deliberate vehicle for Cities of Sigmar forces? A background reason for them to be heading into areas your average human wouldn’t last long in.
And whilst I can understand apprehension about buying into them right now, I do hope the last purge was just that. A final rationalisation of what’s staying and what’s going.
Overread wrote: Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)
Elves are in an odd place because there's two breeds of Aelf in AoS because of how their gods mess with them. So you've got your natural born Aelf and then you've got Aelves rescued from the belly of Slaanesh.
Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Cities of Sigmar Aelves are all, at their core, natural born Aelves. They are just raised within different social groups. An Aelf from any one of them could be raised differently and turn out differently, save for any physical variation within different populations etc..
However DoK Also have Khinerai and Melusai which are technically Aelves of a different kind with the reforging of new bodies for old souls. Idoneth are a whole race of them.
We've yet to fully see Malarion's forces though they appear to have a strong shadow affinity, but I suspect this is like how Lumineth have a powerful light magic affinity. So I'd expect the same pattern.
In truth your baseline aelves are more likely those within Cities of Sigmar as they tend to live in the more "normal" regions (overall) and tend to be less messed with by the various gods.
Lumineth were recovered from Slaanesh weren't they (recovered by Teclis)? As are the DoK(Morathis tithe for helping)?
I did always wonder where the old world style Elves came from if all the Elves were eaten
Not all Elves were eaten, just a vast number of them. Some escaped into the Realms and during the Age of Myth they, along with humans and others who fled, started to populate and build cities and the like
The average Aelf is natural born. Within Daughters of Khaine only the Melusai and Khinerai are remade from souls saved from Slaanesh. The rest of the Witch Aelves, warlocks and queens are all natural normal aelves. The Bloodwracks are the result of a normal aelf being bitten by one of Morathi's head snakes which triggers a mutation in them.
Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.
Idoneth are, far as I'm aware, the only full "race" of living aelves saved from Slaanesh. However they failed on some level and fled to the seas. They are now "natural born" and don't get fresh souls from Slaanesh's belly (those go to the Aelf Gods for remaking).
Note we've no lore or details on if Melusai or Khinerai can breed or if they can only be made by Morathi using souls from Slaanesh.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, we know AoS has a solid track history of tying model releases to the timeline. It’s not to everyone’s taste, but at least it stops the “wE wErE hErE aLl TeH tImE!” shoehorning 40K can suffer from.
In fairness the Malarion army takes up a whole realm and have been there all the time and yet have as yet done almost nothing save appearing in the shadows here and there in a short story. His whole faction has yet to make a single overt and major move in the realms. Then again the Seraphon are quite similar in that so far they've been a touch more on the fringe of the main stories. Doing a few things here and there, but not really making big inroads.
Death dominated the stories of 2nd edition and most of those armies did some pretty major things in the story as a result. Destruction is set to be the 3.0 focus so we can expect Orruks and the like to do a lot more story and narrative elements for quite a while. Indeed likely shaping the early major impacts and events of this edition as it gets established. Esp as the end of 2.0 has seen Nagash dealt some heavy blows to his powerbase.
Gallahad wrote: Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
Seems a bit like poisoning the well.
I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.
Turns out you were right and they were wrong. Mostly people exalting the post. Who would have thought that generalizing an entire group of gamers would turn out to be so wrong. I'm surprised the gaming community still does this. Trying to Pidgeon-hole all AoS players into a certain frame of mind is naïve and dumb. Let's not come into this forum as WHFB or prospective The Old World players and try to sow discourse or spread falsities in this AoS post, thanks!
Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.
Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.
Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.
Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.
Ahh thought the base lumineth were normal and then the constructs were the saved. So the constructs and the regular are all saved souls then?
MajorWesJanson wrote: I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.
Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.
First, that's not actually how evolution works.
Second, that's not how fast evolution works.
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Cronch wrote: Pretty much that. You don't have Baseline Elf to know that idoneth are the sea vampire elves, the lumineth are the smug bastard elves and dok are the DoK are serpent elves. They exist perfectly fine without some sort of Basal Elf lineage.
Ironjawz are the armored orcs, Bonejaws are the vacationtime orcs, and now cruella boys are the dalmatians killed my mother orcs. Neither requires weakboys to exist to know what's up with them.
Lumineth are baseline elves. They're just high elves. Elves don't have orc morphology to the sam extent, outside the IDK who get to be the wierd elves and the snek ladies. But the IDK and snek ladies have normal elves to compare to. But there's nothing in the lumineth about how they are different from the standard elf, while all the orc factions inevitably start with "This is what makes them better than your basic boy"
Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.
Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.
Ahh thought the base lumineth were normal and then the constructs were the saved. So the constructs and the regular are all saved souls then?
The constructs(assuming you're talking about things like the "Spirit of"?) aren't Aelf souls at all. They're literal souls of the Realm of Hysh, given physical form through the artifice of the Aelementari Temples. The mages and craftsmen of the temples work together to build the bodies they inhabit.
Tyrion created the Lumineth from his portion of the souls rescued from Slaanesh, but has shared them with Teclis since the Idoneth went nutterbutters.
Eldarsif wrote: To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.
I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.
I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.
There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.
The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.
Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.
They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?
If I collected AoS and basic Orc boys still existed, I'd get them. I always liked your common Goblins and common Orcs, though the common goblin models sucked.
There's something cool about a horde of the most common unit an army has. My Tyranids have plenty of Gaunts, my Imperial Guard have plenty of regular Guardsmen, my WHFB O&G army has a ton of basic Orc Boys and basic Night Goblins (because as mentioned before, the common Goblin models sucked, if they didn't suck I would have had them instead of the Nights).
It makes it so much cooler when your Giant Spider rocks up if it's surrounded by a bunch of regular old Orcs and Goblins.
But then I don't collect AoS, so maybe I'm just not the target audience.
Especially now that orcs are all together in warclans, normal boys would go far in thematically tying the faction together in a way they kinda don't right now.
So making points costs multiples of 5 makes them more granular not less somehow...
And points needed to go up so that armies would get smaller, so that they have room to maneuver on the now smaller boards.
Why are the boards smaller? Who cares!? It's better this way.
But there's nothing in the lumineth about how they are different from the standard elf
I mean,the whole topic is that there is no standard elf. If lumineth are standard elves, I want to know why. Why shouldn't Idoneth, the first to be made, be the standard and everything afterwards an improvement? If the "natural" elves that were not made by Elven gods (So CoS elves pretty much) are to be the standard, then why, they are the least numerous, by default they can't be the standard elf if they're the minority.
Elves don't need a "standard elf", just like orcs don't need a "standard orc" to understand that ironjaws are massive orcs with heavy armor. That is self-evident.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.
Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.
First, that's not actually how evolution works.
Second, that's not how fast evolution works.
Nope, not at all. But a basic pop science version of evolution would explain the current state of the orcs. Meanwhile elves are playing with Intelligent Design, and Seraphon, well... aliens
The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units. This is particularly impactful for units on the lower end of the points value spectrum, where you can keenly feel the difference between 70, 75, and 80. It also means we can be more precise than ever before when we adjust points values moving forward.
It's paragraphs like this that remind me that one of the definitions of "literally" can be "figuratively" or "virtually". That is to say, the opposite of what the word means.
To put it another way, you can't describe something as having more granularity or allowing for greater precision when the process you are explaining does neither.
I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?
I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?
Buying enough of them that the sales team tells the writers to nerf them?
Daedalus81 wrote: I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing...
Refreshing? Choosing a system with less granularity and then trying to explain that it allows for more precision is refreshing now?
I'm not talking about the 5 point breaks.
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Rihgu wrote: I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.
People seem to be weirdly attracted to this one tiny piece of the article. They state it is more granular since they're using 5 point increments instead of 10.
Rihgu wrote: I must not know the definition of granular either. Can somebody explain like I'm 5 why going from 10s to 5s is less granular? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all.
People seem to be weirdly attracted to this one tiny piece of the article. They state it is more granular since they're using 5 point increments instead of 10.
Yea, I'm confused as to how that's wrong? It seems definitively true, that 5 point increments is more granular than 10, but HBMC seems to be indicating the opposite?
Anyways, shooting is slightly reigned in by smaller board sizes, so it's harder for them to stay out of range of your own threats. That's really all they have going besides the general larger points increases to ranged units.
Lumineth I believe are similar in that the bulk are natural born Aelves, however some of their soul constructs are aelf souls saved from slaanesh and given new form.
Unless something changes in 3rd ed Lumineth are Teclis' and Tyrion's 2nd attempt at recycling elf souls from Slaanesh. The only "natural" elves that exist so far are the ones in Cities of Sigmar, and they were a tiny, tiny population when the twin gods awoke in age of myth. Overwhelming majority of elves in AoS are either recycled soulds or born to recycled elves, not descendants of the "wild" elves. The "baseline" CoS elves are tiny minority of all elves in the setting to the point where they're the exception, not the baselien.
"Elf souls" is definitely one of the few areas where less recycling would be an improvement.
Reduce the number of Elves, increase the number of Dwarves, and watch as the world improves...
Daedalus81 wrote: I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?
Woods block LoS and terrain now provides easier access to cover.
Problem is the current best shooting unit in the game ignore LoS and does most of its damage via mortal wounds.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find their methodology for calculating points somewhat refreshing, but people still seem to be indicating ranged units are too strong. Is there anything else that reins them in?
Buying enough of them that the sales team tells the writers to nerf them?
Why are you still here? You never have anything to add the discussion but regurgitated 20 year old 'hot takes' that have been thrown out and debunked more times than GW's raised their prices.
Whether a new unit or a popular unit gets better or worse and the degree to which they're adjusted is and has always been largely random. New releases are as likely as not to be garbage and stay garbage for years (primaris), top tier units stay top tier frequently (Morathi, Sentinels) and garbage units stay garbage forever (predator tanks, vanguard hunters, literally dozens of others.)
I WISH GW was competent enough to swap around unit strength the way you think they do. At least then there'd be logic behind it.
Woods don't really block LOS very well, they only block if the line you draw from base to base passes over the wood for more than 3", and only if both the target and the shooting unit has less than 10 wounds. Basically they only block when you're shooting pretty much straight through them to something directly on the other side. Which when you combine with movement beforehand, means that it's a pretty rare situation where the shooting unit can't find a way to draw an angle to what it wants to shoot at. Maybe a single small hero positioned exactly in the ideal spot, that's about it.
AOS 3.0 is still a game where terrain has a very limited impact. It's one of the biggest differences between 40k and AOS.
Overread wrote: Cities of Sigmar are your base humans, they just haven't had a release or any real focus for a long while save for a few special character models released through Cursed City (or not since it seemed to go belly up on launch and they got individual release)
And they'll probably be replaced by this Dawnthingo Crusade armies, as GW shuffle off the last of the legacy Warhammer minis that haven't found a home in a 'proper' faction.
So I'll spend more time going back and forth on whether I really need a unit of Phoenix Guard. I mean, I never even played Fantasy, and yet I want those minis...
And Lumineth makes me want to try AoS...
Basically what I'm saying is that I like High Elves and I wish there were more of their kits still around.
I do not care what the formula (and/or any mechanism) they use for points calculations is because the results continue to be so poor. Put differently; if the result is gak I don't really care how it got made.
@Aelves discussion; there are a lot of baseline aelves. All the ones from CoS and non-mutant ones from DoK are just normal. Like in WHFB there are significant differences in culture, but the species is the same.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do not care what the formula (and/or any mechanism) they use for points calculations is because the results continue to be so poor. Put differently; if the result is gak I don't really care how it got made.
It may be premature to say the outcome is bad. I don't know. I left AoS behind years ago.
The method is relatively sound. So the question becomes what is GW experiencing that is deviating their results from our perceptions?
Well there is one part that matters at the end; the adjustments via playtesting & subjective evaluation. Any formula serves only to produce a baseline to expedite the process. I am relatively confident the formula isn't the main issue.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do not care what the formula (and/or any mechanism) they use for points calculations is because the results continue to be so poor. Put differently; if the result is gak I don't really care how it got made.
It may be premature to say the outcome is bad. I don't know. I left AoS behind years ago.
The method is relatively sound. So the question becomes what is GW experiencing that is deviating their results from our perceptions?
It's quite strange that the AoS team seems to have been, for the past year and a half at least, been having a VERY different gameplay experience than the playerbase. In 40k it makes sense that they would think a Castigator is worth 160pts or that an Exorcist should cost 180pts at T7 and cost 2CP to shoot because they're fluff players who ban any weapon above T6 when they play internally to help 'build the narrative'.
Last I knew though, most of the team involved in writing the Sigmar Battletomes are accomplished tournament players so I don't get how they can look at Lumineth Sentinels and go 'yeah, these guys are on the same level as Avatars of Khaine (a model that no one has ever taken in the history of sigmar) and should get about the same points bump.'
ERJAK wrote: Last I knew though, most of the team involved in writing the Sigmar Battletomes are accomplished tournament players so I don't get how they can look at Lumineth Sentinels and go 'yeah, these guys are on the same level as Avatars of Khaine (a model that no one has ever taken in the history of sigmar) and should get about the same points bump.'
You're making the assumption that the person who changed the Sentinels even remembered that the Avatar was in the game.
As I've found with a lot of their FAQs, and how you can have points costs revert back to the cost listed in not the previous update, but the one before that, I'm not certain that the people doing these sorts of updates even have copies of the previous changes before they start working. Or even check.
GW Article wrote:
More Granularity The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units.
Factors of five are 1 and 5.
Does this mean points go up in 1's or 5's? Seems redundant stating you can go up in 5's if you can count up in 1's.
Unless of course GW meant multiples rather than factors. Or that points values have to be factors of 5.
But there's nothing in the lumineth about how they are different from the standard elf
I mean,the whole topic is that there is no standard elf. If lumineth are standard elves, I want to know why. Why shouldn't Idoneth, the first to be made, be the standard and everything afterwards an improvement? If the "natural" elves that were not made by Elven gods (So CoS elves pretty much) are to be the standard, then why, they are the least numerous, by default they can't be the standard elf if they're the minority.
Elves don't need a "standard elf", just like orcs don't need a "standard orc" to understand that ironjaws are massive orcs with heavy armor. That is self-evident.
Cause elves are defined on cultural characteristics and orcs of racial or genetic characteristics.
GW Article wrote:
More Granularity The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units.
Factors of five are 1 and 5.
Does this mean points go up in 1's or 5's? Seems redundant stating you can go up in 5's if you can count up in 1's.
Unless of course GW meant multiples rather than factors. Or that points values have to be factors of 5.
The quote literally says points values can be in factors of 5s.
GW Article wrote:
More Granularity The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units.
Factors of five are 1 and 5.
Does this mean points go up in 1's or 5's? Seems redundant stating you can go up in 5's if you can count up in 1's.
Unless of course GW meant multiples rather than factors. Or that points values have to be factors of 5.
The quote literally says points values can be in factors of 5s.
I'm pretty sure they mean multiples of 5.
If granularity was their goal I'm not sure why they had to use multiples of 5 instead of just using any integer / natural number.
GW Article wrote:
More Granularity The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units.
Factors of five are 1 and 5.
Does this mean points go up in 1's or 5's? Seems redundant stating you can go up in 5's if you can count up in 1's.
Unless of course GW meant multiples rather than factors. Or that points values have to be factors of 5.
The quote literally says points values can be in factors of 5s.
I'm pretty sure they mean multiples of 5.
If granularity was their goal I'm not sure why they had to use multiples of 5 instead of just using any integer / natural number.
Thing is this isn't like mark 2 warmahordes. We weren't having balance issues because a unit was underpowered at 90 but overpowered at 80. We weren't even close to a place where units were well-balanced enough for such a distinction to matter. We could round every cost to the nearest 5 and there wouldn't be a noticable difference because units being off by 5 points is not an issue AoS had.
Everything is the number one thing these days. Customers have rewarded hyperbolic advertising so long that it has naturally progressed to the end state where every product or release is 'the best evar!!!1'
Personally I think less of something when that or an analogous claim is made because it is both overused and doesn't mean anything. Compared to advertising points like 'heroes more heroic using hero actions, monsters more powerful with monster actions' which actually give me something of substance.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Everything is the number one thing these days. Customers have rewarded hyperbolic advertising so long that it has naturally progressed to the end state where every product or release is 'the best evar!!!1'
Personally I think less of something when that or an analogous claim is made because it is both overused and doesn't mean anything. Compared to advertising points like 'heroes more heroic using hero actions, monsters more powerful with monster actions' which actually give me something of substance.
Don't you mean "THE BEST HEROIC ACTIONS AND MONSTER ACTIONS, MAKING THIS THE MOST BESTERS AMAZING GAME EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND!"
You say that but honestly I can't remember a time when marketing has never said "best ever". Perhaps not using those specific words; but every new edition is always better, improved, different in the right ways, a reimagining, a breath of fresh air. It's always shown as being better because in the end GW wants you and needs you to move with them.
There is nothing stopping people saying "no I think 2.0 was good, we'll stick with that." Even events can run 2.0.
GW honestly has exceptionally little direct influence over the tournament scene and what they have is almost built up over the last few years not decades of long relationships.
the last time GW used "the best ever" in advertising we got Finecast, it this was not something that turned out very well
and while a new Edtion being an improvement is normal outside GW, it was more often the opposite for GW (with as soon the fresh air was gone it turned out worse than the previous one)
and with the history of AoS I would not be suprised if some big events start using their own point system again and/or their own core rule variaten
Fantasy was always dominated by Houserules and Community versions of the game, AoS 2 is more or less the exception of to the rule since 5th Edtion Warhammer
Best ever cheesy sales pitch only works if the cycles are larger than what we see.
Its ok I guess but by the time you hear it again in a few months time people will just be more annoyed than anything else.
Also depends on what you choose to believe... I think 40k and AoS is nothing more than a beer and pretzels game, Warhammer lore is convoluted and messy so I dont see much point in getting worked up with them nuking worlds or even reading much of it and the minis are plastic mass produced tokens that aspire to be art pieces on a display but they are not.
So they can say these are the best rules in the universe and most engaging lore and beacons of art miniatures... not in my opinion.
In for the fun times not in for the best ever rules, lore etc drama because I believe they are just marketing gimmick stunts to sell minis. We love this hobby but even in love we should see the flaws.
GW Article wrote:
More Granularity The second thing to highlight is that points values can now be in factors of five, allowing for more granularity between units.
Factors of five are 1 and 5.
Does this mean points go up in 1's or 5's? Seems redundant stating you can go up in 5's if you can count up in 1's.
Unless of course GW meant multiples rather than factors. Or that points values have to be factors of 5.
The quote literally says points values can be in factors of 5s.
And the point was; A firm dealing with the mathematics of points values in a game worth millions of dollars doesn't know the difference between a factor and a multiple.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Everything is the number one thing these days. Customers have rewarded hyperbolic advertising so long that it has naturally progressed to the end state where every product or release is 'the best evar!!!1'
Personally I think less of something when that or an analogous claim is made because it is both overused and doesn't mean anything. Compared to advertising points like 'heroes more heroic using hero actions, monsters more powerful with monster actions' which actually give me something of substance.
I mean, it works in politics too, so why not go all the way?
Uuuhhh...changing points when rules change is logical...
might look that way at first
but if you make balance adjustments you either change rules or points, not both
with changing both you start of with a reset and a fresh game, were all previous gained data is useless
so if the rule changes were made to adjust balance there is no need to adjust points in that way
and with a major point reset big rule changes are nearly impossible to adjust
"perfect balance is impossible and there are too many options to balance everything"
but changing everything at once to achieve balance is fine.....
Uuuhhh...changing points when rules change is logical...
might look that way at first
but if you make balance adjustments you either change rules or points, not both
with changing both you start of with a reset and a fresh game, were all previous gained data is useless
so if the rule changes were made to adjust balance there is no need to adjust points in that way
and with a major point reset big rule changes are nearly impossible to adjust
"perfect balance is impossible and there are too many options to balance everything"
but changing everything at once to achieve balance is fine.....
Uuuh...so you really think gw should just give big improvements to stormcast and not change points?
Seriously?
So let's say lord castellan gets 2+ save, 4+ ward, 6 attacks 2/2/-3/4 and you think point cost should stay sameas last battletome???
Wtf? Seriously? Regardless of changes to battletome points can't be changed???
Good thing you aren't game designer. Gw guys aren't good but at least they aren't that bad.
Uuuhhh...changing points when rules change is logical...
might look that way at first
but if you make balance adjustments you either change rules or points, not both
with changing both you start of with a reset and a fresh game, were all previous gained data is useless
so if the rule changes were made to adjust balance there is no need to adjust points in that way
and with a major point reset big rule changes are nearly impossible to adjust
"perfect balance is impossible and there are too many options to balance everything"
but changing everything at once to achieve balance is fine.....
Uuuh...so you really think gw should just give big improvements to stormcast and not change points?
Seriously?
So let's say lord castellan gets 2+ save, 4+ ward, 6 attacks 2/2/-3/4 and you think point cost should stay sameas last battletome???
Wtf? Seriously? Regardless of changes to battletome points can't be changed???
Good thing you aren't game designer. Gw guys aren't good but at least they aren't that bad.
Stormcast rules were abysmally weak. Like, joke tier army aside from one accidentally broken build.
You make them better and raise cost, good job, now they're ok units with too-high cost.You better hope they did the same mistake with everyone else.
Except we know they raised LRL costs by only a tiny bit, so the really strong army stayed at similar point cost as before, so Stormcast are still overcosted in relation to the strongest army. You achieved nothing.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Everything is the number one thing these days. Customers have rewarded hyperbolic advertising so long that it has naturally progressed to the end state where every product or release is 'the best evar!!!1'
Personally I think less of something when that or an analogous claim is made because it is both overused and doesn't mean anything. Compared to advertising points like 'heroes more heroic using hero actions, monsters more powerful with monster actions' which actually give me something of substance.
I mean, it works in politics too, so why not go all the way?
Could be worse. Wizards of the Coast had their amazing marketing blitz for 4th edition that not only was it the bestest thing ever, but also everything they'd ever done before was actually really rubbish.
They basically pre-emptively kicked off an edition war and told existing customers that they wouldn't like the new edition. [Which was at least honest, if not the best marketing idea]
Overread wrote: You say that but honestly I can't remember a time when marketing has never said "best ever".
They've done it for Dominion and Codex releases and Indomitus before it.
Gimgamgoo wrote: And the point was; A firm dealing with the mathematics of points values in a game worth millions of dollars doesn't know the difference between a factor and a multiple.
This is from the group that thinks that doing everything in multiples of 5 allows for greater granularity, so, are you surprised?
Gimgamgoo wrote: And the point was; A firm dealing with the mathematics of points values in a game worth millions of dollars doesn't know the difference between a factor and a multiple.
This is from the group that thinks that doing everything in multiples of 5 allows for greater granularity, so, are you surprised?
Mistaking the word "factors" for "multiples" is probably something I'd do by mistake and I use mathematics on a daily basis for my job, so I don't blame them too much for that, but yeah, boasting about using multiples of 5 to increase granularity when they could literally just use multiples of 1 is just silly. Whether you think the game needs more granularity or not, that's just a silly thing to boast
Well we all know if those new Slaanesh units were just 5 points cheaper they would be good to go; it isn't like the rest of the 50-point decrease they need renders increments of 5 utterly trivial. /s
Overread wrote: You say that but honestly I can't remember a time when marketing has never said "best ever".
They've done it for Dominion and Codex releases and Indomitus before it.
Gimgamgoo wrote: And the point was; A firm dealing with the mathematics of points values in a game worth millions of dollars doesn't know the difference between a factor and a multiple.
This is from the group that thinks that doing everything in multiples of 5 allows for greater granularity, so, are you surprised?
You say that but honestly I can't remember a time when marketing has never said "best ever".
Bolded for emphasis. Don't worry, I thought going with the double negative there was weird phrasing too.
Honestly if the whole "best *whatever*" kind of marketing annoys you to the point you don't buy into it. I'm going to hazard its not the reason its just the excuse.
If you wanted that boxed set for the contents it actually has (which right now we've a very good idea of the actual content and the quality of the content from models to rules to lore to art) then you'd get it and you wouldn't care what the marketing team were saying. In fact beyond previews you'd likely not care what they are pushing it as.
If "best ever" puts you off then you were already not on the fence to start with.
Oh for sure it was a on the fence push over to the other side thing. The content vs price was probably enough to peek any mini gamers interest. The ad campaign, and subsequent disappointing rules leak were the deterrents.
Eh they are GW rules, by now after many years I'm not expecting a balance wonder. I think that won't ever happen until they fully change their rules staff.
But I do know I can expect top rate plastic models, decent fantasy lore and outstanding artwork.
That said I'm not into either army (though if I were to collect an ork force it would be KruelBoyz right now - I do like their look!) so I'm only in this round for the rules.
Overread wrote: Eh they are GW rules, by now after many years I'm not expecting a balance wonder. I think that won't ever happen until they fully change their rules staff.
But I do know I can expect top rate plastic models, decent fantasy lore and outstanding artwork.
That said I'm not into either army (though if I were to collect an ork force it would be KruelBoyz right now - I do like their look!) so I'm only in this round for the rules.
Problem isn't rule staff. Problem is above them. Well the above guys make sure top level guys don't get hired but even if they would get one marching order would still be shiftring imbalance.
DaveC wrote: Dominion Day celebration preview confirmed for next Saturday at 5PM BST.
Any guesses as to what this preview is about?
I feel like there isnt anything left to preview for Dominion, but also not enough hype for a preview of post-Dominion releases.
We know that the Kruelboyz are getting a Sludgeraker (rumoured to look like an alligator) and winged beast (rumoured to be called a skyrippa and look like a bat with scorpion tail) these were confirmed in name only by a community article. Plus there are rumours of a cavalry briefly seen in the launch animation.
Stormcast are rumoured to get a new dragon type and possibly dragon cavalry plus we saw Vanquishers listed in the new army list on the learn to play video.
DaveC wrote: Dominion Day celebration preview confirmed for next Saturday at 5PM BST.
Any guesses as to what this preview is about?
I feel like there isnt anything left to preview for Dominion, but also not enough hype for a preview of post-Dominion releases.
We know that the Kruelboyz are getting a Sludgeraker (rumoured to look like an alligator) and winged beast (rumoured to be called a skyrippa and look like a bat with scorpion tail) these were confirmed in name only by a community article. Plus there are rumours of a cavalry briefly seen in the launch animation.
Stormcast are rumoured to get a new dragon type and possibly dragon cavalry plus we saw Vanquishers listed in the new army list on the learn to play video.
If they have new dragons that look anything like the stardrake I'm gonna run out of money.
DaveC wrote: Dominion Day celebration preview confirmed for next Saturday at 5PM BST.
Any guesses as to what this preview is about?
I feel like there isnt anything left to preview for Dominion, but also not enough hype for a preview of post-Dominion releases.
We know that the Kruelboyz are getting a Sludgeraker (rumoured to look like an alligator) and winged beast (rumoured to be called a skyrippa and look like a bat with scorpion tail) these were confirmed in name only by a community article. Plus there are rumours of a cavalry briefly seen in the launch animation.
Stormcast are rumoured to get a new dragon type and possibly dragon cavalry plus we saw Vanquishers listed in the new army list on the learn to play video.
If they have new dragons that look anything like the stardrake I'm gonna run out of money.
I imagine it's gonna be longer and leaner, to fit with the slimmer stormcasts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Premature? How? They've done this many many times, and we know from the start of 9th that they get this wrong. Constantly.
There comes a time where 'wait and see' has to give way to pattern recognition.
When's the last time GW showed that they had a mathematical method for balance?
It's one thing to say "new boss same as the old one", but it's another thing entirely to completely ignore what changed.
the last time was first GHB when GW adopted the mathematical method for points from the Community
the other time was the DE Army book in 6th Edition which the screwed up because they had a calculation error in their formula (and we got the Errata to cut out and glue over the parts in the book)
H.B.M.C. wrote: Premature? How? They've done this many many times, and we know from the start of 9th that they get this wrong. Constantly.
There comes a time where 'wait and see' has to give way to pattern recognition.
When's the last time GW showed that they had a mathematical method for balance?
It's one thing to say "new boss same as the old one", but it's another thing entirely to completely ignore what changed.
They have been using one in AoS for some time now, and even did a review of it in one of the WD from last year.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: We already know about the following kits, but they're likely to be shown again...
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I know GW naming is what it is but sometimes units come out that seem particularly egregious to me. What's wrong with "mire troggoth"? They already have their copywrite-but-not-really thing with "Breaka-Boss" so did they just have to throw in an extra noun? And why not just "killbow"? That actually seems like a reasonable and suitable orky name, but noooo it needs to be a "beast-skewer killbow".
H.B.M.C. wrote: Premature? How? They've done this many many times, and we know from the start of 9th that they get this wrong. Constantly.
There comes a time where 'wait and see' has to give way to pattern recognition.
When's the last time GW showed that they had a mathematical method for balance?
It's one thing to say "new boss same as the old one", but it's another thing entirely to completely ignore what changed.
the last time was first GHB when GW adopted the mathematical method for points from the Community
the other time was the DE Army book in 6th Edition which the screwed up because they had a calculation error in their formula (and we got the Errata to cut out and glue over the parts in the book)
That wasn't a 'calculation error.' At the time they were still trying to mirror the high elf and dark elf books, so used basically the same point values for the 'equivalent' units (archers, spears, great weapons, halberds, etc). Except high elves had Always Strike First on everything and dark elves... didn't. So dark elves got plowed over like roadkill. So the errata was a massive discount to basically everything to account for the lack of ASF, which proved to be a terrible band-aid and meant they were underpriced vs everyone else.
That DE errata was actually the first real deviation from the basic formula they'd been using since at least 3rd edition fantasy and rogue trader (which was amusing since the 8th edition 40k values largely returned to the RT values, meaning they went back to the old formula). For AoS its hard to even say what the formula is based on. The old one was accumulation of fractions for each statistic (WS, BS, S, T, etc) plus gear (which had a multiplier based on the stat total- low point stuff like goblins paid half, big stuff- chaos warriors and ogres, paid increasingly more). Since AoS doesn't use the same stats and wounding is based solely on the attacker (no T comparison, weapons either modify armor saves or not, rather than being strength based like WFB) the old formula doesn't apply.
And since moving to 5 point steps for units rather than 10 is apparently a 'big deal,' I can't tell what they're thinking. Other than that maybe some models are worth X and a half points so 10 of them are X5 (10 5.5 point models = 55 points, for example). Its not a revolutionary step in granularity, its just... how they used to do things, but also always assuming minimum unit size. For example, in 3rd edition goblins could take basic gobbos for 3 ppm, minimum unit size of 20 for 60 points, or gobbo stickas (archers) at 3.5 ppm, or 70 points for 20.
Ghaz wrote: We already know about the following kits, but they're likely to be shown again...
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I know GW naming is what it is but sometimes units come out that seem particularly egregious to me. What's wrong with "mire troggoth"? They already have their copywrite-but-not-really thing with "Breaka-Boss" so did they just have to throw in an extra noun? And why not just "killbow"? That actually seems like a reasonable and suitable orky name, but noooo it needs to be a "beast-skewer killbow".
At least the models are totally fething awesome.
In case they want to release a wall-cracker killbow and a unit of breaka-boyz on miredwell troggoths later.
20 minutes, though.
