So far so good.
Druggie son I want to put a boot in his arse
Step dad in this time and age doesn't know how to use a camera
Principle Eval the teachers by listening in on the speaker.......crafty geezer.....but crafty enough to survive
They've signed an exclusive deal in the UK so a AMC channel with Fear the Walking Dead is going to only be on BT. Which sucks, as that has worse coverage than Netflix, and is third out of the three main subscription services.. so unless I pirate it (which I don't tend to do) I'm not going to see anything.
I'm certainly not paying an extre £20 odd quid a month for two BT sports channels and AMC, as I have every other channel they offer through Sky.. just seems a really odd call by AMC, particularly as they where obsessed about pirating a while back, because from what I'm seeing online that's what a lot of Brits plan to do.
Alpharius wrote: I thought the whole thing was incredibly...boring.
What the producers are touting as a 'benefit' - that we know more than everyone else does - is actually its biggest downfall.
Hopefully it doesn't take more than this episode and the next to really get going...
Same here. I found it ironic that one of the advertising lines was, "Once civilization goes, it goes fast" and then proceeds to an hour and a half of character exposition and civilization getting along just fine.
Alpharius wrote: I thought the whole thing was incredibly...boring.
What the producers are touting as a 'benefit' - that we know more than everyone else does - is actually its biggest downfall.
Hopefully it doesn't take more than this episode and the next to really get going...
I'm ok with it. Walking Dead started after the Zombiegames had occurred. This revs up to that, so by nature there's going to be more of this initially.
What I would really like to see is a Walking Deadescue take on it, aka I want to see them focus on watching society fall apart around them. We need to add in some preppers and maybe a hollywood star that quickly get eaten.
Alpharius wrote: I thought the whole thing was incredibly...boring.
What the producers are touting as a 'benefit' - that we know more than everyone else does - is actually its biggest downfall.
Hopefully it doesn't take more than this episode and the next to really get going...
I think the slower pace is the entire point, and that this show is attempting to reach some new audiences beyond the core TWD fans.
While I'm a fan of TWD (in both mediums), I do get it when people say they have a hard time relating to the characters. It's a show in which the sociopaths are the good guys. If you've been with it since the beginning, maybe you're attached to this or that character. But imagine starting the show now and being told that Rick is 'the good guy'.
FWTD gives us a cast of less damaged individuals, and we get to see them and their more normal, human reactions to horrors happening in a more recognizable modern society. It almost has to be easier for more people to relate to these characters.
Alpharius wrote: I thought the whole thing was incredibly...boring.
What the producers are touting as a 'benefit' - that we know more than everyone else does - is actually its biggest downfall.
Hopefully it doesn't take more than this episode and the next to really get going...
I think the slower pace is the entire point, and that this show is attempting to reach some new audiences beyond the core TWD fans.
While I'm a fan of TWD (in both mediums), I do get it when people say they have a hard time relating to the characters. It's a show in which the sociopaths are the good guys. If you've been with it since the beginning, maybe you're attached to this or that character. But imagine starting the show now and being told that Rick is 'the good gu'y.
FWTD gives us a cast of less damaged individuals, and we get to see them and their more normal, human reactions to horrors happening in a more recognizable modern society. It almost has to be easier for more people to relate to these characters.
I find Rick to be more relatable now than when he started out. Honestly, I'd still accuse him of being too soft.
We saw Rick wake up to the insanity and had Morgan help him come to grip with what's happening
Now we get to see it all go down hill and people dealing with the insanity from the get go.
I think the first episode was fine to set the characters. I think the pace will pick up pretty quick with the next couple of episodes from what was going on on the last part of the show.
1) Really boring.
2) We hate Lori 2.0
A. It's like they tried to do WD with Lori as the protagonist instead of Rick. I'm not feeling it.
B. She's terrible at her job, her son is a drug addict, her daughter cuts class to have premarital sex (probably), she poops where she eats, and endangers her students by letting knife wielding kids into school to inflate her own ego.
3) It's still really boring
In it's defense, at least Lori 2.0 realized she is a terrible mother in a single episode, it took original Lori two plus seasons to figure that out.
Because zombies are the hardest working members of society. While everyone else lazes around sleeping every night, they are out there shuffling shuffling. As the old saying goes, you can't keep a good zombie down.
Because zombies are the hardest working members of society. While everyone else lazes around sleeping every night, they are out there shuffling shuffling. As the old saying goes, you can't keep a good zombie down.
You missed the abandon shopping carts throughout the episodes?
First episode is a little slow. But I expected that. And we're already seeing the acceleration. School closed on a half day after one bus only brought in 5 students. Where the day before some people were sick but not most of the school.
I wouldn't call her Lori 2.0. I don't get nearly the same vibe. I actually got competence from her in spades in her environment.
As for her job I'd say she actually strikes the balance that good teachers/administrators need between rule following and what's actually best for the kid. From snippets of conversation her ex was a drug addict (hence the it's in the blood discussion), her daughter has been accepted to an Ivy League school.
She also as a parent is genuinely trying to help her kid without enabling him which strikes me as what a good parent can do. And as for the son/daughter druggy/braniac thing I feel like based on his actual actions the druggy son is just as smart but limited by his drug addiction.
Overall the only character we've met that I'm meh about is the Step Dad. But I see him being the base from which they all really accept what's going on as he seems open to the crazy.
I think it'll draw a whole new group in but once it gets going it'll be able to tap the regulars from TWD too. I'm kinda excited to see the fall. Also to see how they handle the fall in a place like LA where natural resources to survive are insanely far away when you consider that the ways in and out of the LA area are going to be impossibly blocked in no time. Especially since it's still home even if I moved away 5 years ago
Y'know, I kind of looked at this in the vein of "The Dresden Files". One of the books has him looking into a bunch of crazy necromancers in Chicago--and when he's asked about "where are all the homeless people?", he replies with "They're the people who live here. They know that something is going on. Do you really think they'd stick around with that level of weirdness?".
That's the way I'm looking at it here. The homeless have probably encountered zombies more than any "credible" citizens have, and already adapted to an extent.
Anyways, regarding the show. It wasn't bad for a pilot episode. I need to sit down and watch it all at once rather than the first half one day and the second half the next.
I think showing the the homeless guy going from cart pushing to abandoned cart and staggering as if a walker as the episode progressed was a little heavy handed, but nicely done symbolism of the zombie-ness spreading amongst the abandoned, the shunned. Same with druggies turning, too. The people that we all turn away from and don't want to see become our downfall.
But I like that symbolic crap. Overall, I was a bored by the family drama stuff. Couldn't even pay attention enough to care about the boyfriend/live in step-dad-role dude having issues with his son, but his wife/ex-wife is evidently friendly with the lead female... see even writing that out was /snore/
The ending was a bit weird but I think it played up the shock and WTF paralysis pretty well. It made sense that the druggy son was like, Frak it, I'm not crazy and I'm running the cannibal freak down. He's been living in that church with other drugged out people, and saw his friend gnawing on a dude. So yeah, no shock that Mom and boyfriend are like... um, did that really just happen? To them, this is all in the realm of maybe and they haven't had a chance to process that their lives really were in danger.
Overall, the episode was slow. Not sure it'll work to draw in new viewers. It's really going to depend on where they take it.
On premier night, I turned it off after 30 minutes. Then, after reading some comments in this thread I went back and watched it thru to the end. I think the directors and producers missed the point of what makes Walking Dead a great show. There is a gritty realism, with characters looking and acting like real people in a strange situation. But what does Fear give us?
A homeless drug addict who manages to save money for a tanning booth, chest waxing, and lotion to maintain perfect skin. Trust me, in Downtown LA the druggies do not look like this kid. At all.
A “super smart” teenage daughter. We know she’s super smart because they tell us a whole bunch of times. But all we see is she skips nearly every class to make out with her black boyfriend. The one time we see her in a class, she is not paying attention. In the real world, the smart kids are in class and they work hard.
A loving mother whose son was just nailed by a van. But there are kids in her class that need her! See ya later, son! Yeah, that seems perfectly natural. Oh, and teachers love covering for kids that bring knives to school!
Who are we supposed to root for? Who are we to relate to? The son is a jerk to everyone. The daughter is a jerk to everyone. The mom is a jerk to her family and boyfriend but not to knife wielding students. The boyfriend is the punching bag. Who is the hero?
I wont be watching anymore of it. The real Walking Dead returns in October! That’s where you’ll find me!
Your comment about the son is strange. TWD isn't exactly strictly realistic with regard to how the actors "look." The women tend to have grime and sweat on them, but also light makeup, manicured eyebrows, and hair that isn't particularly dirty or unkempt despite supposedly being on the road for weeks at a time without a bath.
Spoiler:
And of course your criticism ignores that it's ENTERTAINMENT, where actors are always more beautiful than their real-world counterparts.
I'd also suggest that really smart kids don't have to work THAT hard in high school, and that returning to work after finding out your adult son wasn't seriously hurt isn't overly unusual. He was going to be fine...it wasn't like a bedside vigil was required there.
Im intrigued about seeing the military response & the impact on society, etc. Its the only really interesting aspect aabout the zombie genre to me, and it happens to be the one element of the genre that is rarely ever portrayed, as generally a zombie story will focus more on a specific group of survivors rather than the wider world.
Its the only reason why I tolerated World War Z anyway.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote: The real Walking Dead returns in October! That’s where you’ll find me!
More fool you, then, for expecting a Walking Dead clone.
FTWD is not The Walking Dead, nor should it aspire to be.
TWD is about a group of hardened survivors struggling to survive in a post apocalypse world. They already know what's happening, and that society has completely broken down. They know they can only depend on themselves for survival, nobody's coming to rescue them.
But FTWD has a fundamentally different premise. We're witnessing the apocalypse begin, in real time. Society has not yet broken down. People don't know what's happening. They still think the authorities (government, military, police) have it under control, and if they can just hold on they'll be rescued. They haven't yet learned what the main cast of TWD has learned - survival of the fittest.
When we're properly introduced to Rick Grimes (after a short pre apoc prologue), he wakes up to a post apocalypse world. The world already gone to gak, and he's forced to confront it from the first episode, a baptism of fire. The cast of FTWD lack that slap in the face, the apocalypse is creeping up on them slowly. They're like frogs, being boiled slowly.
Who is the Hero?
Whoever learns to adapt to the new world the fastest. From episode 1, I'd guess it'll be the druggie son. He's the only one who's started killing zombies yet. TWD is about the strong struggling to survive. FTWD is about the weak learning that they have to be strong and adapt to survive. By the time it concludes, I wouldn't be surprised if by the time the show concludes, half the cast have been killed off with the rest becoming hardened survivors.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im intrigued about seeing the military response & the impact on society, etc. Its the only really aspect aabout the zombie genre to me, and it happens to be the one element of the genre that is rarely ever portrayed, as generally a zombie story will focus more on a specific group of survivors rather than the wider world.
Its the only reason why I tolerated World War Z anyway.
Exactly. THATS what I want to see. The little vignettes in TWD harkingh back to when things were breaking down were some of the best bits for me.
Yeah, I'm interested in the actual government response. We already know that everything went tits up in about 3-4 months total. We know that because of the CDC at the end of season one. And we're already seeing the acceleration now.
My wife, who loves The Walking Dead only for the psychology and doesn't care much for zombies, is already more interested in the FTWD. It's not a clone of TWD. Even the area in which they live means that once it catches up with TWD (which they said it will eventually) it won't be a clone. You couldn't pick a more different geographical area from the south eastern seaboard with SoCal.
The starting actors in this are also much better for me than TWD ones. Outside of Rick, Glenn, and Darryl I didn't care for anyone till we met Herschel's family and even then Rick and Darryl were the only characters I cared about for quite a while. Over that time some characters have grown so that I love them (Carol and Carl) or they have died and over time been replaced by a lot of characters I like (as in I'd be sad to see all but one or two people in the TWD survivor group go).
To each their own. I think the greatest issue is going to be people comparing to TWD and not remembering quite how....meh the acting and plot were in early TWD.
Season 2 suffered heavily from the weekly format. I went back and watched it again (and boy did I loathe it the first time around) but it really was much better when you could watch it in a run and not wait weeks for something to happen.
But yeah, I personally love TWD but it didn't really start to get momentum till season 3 and even then it didn't skyrocket till Gimpel took over as the showrunner.
Season two had quite a few problems. They dropped the budget by the amount of the tax credit they get for filming in Georgia to give that money to Mad Men (if I remember right). They also wanted to try to do a more set-piece show which accounted for the farm and not leaving it much the first half of the season. The original show runner left I wanna say before the season started and the second one left or was fired by the halfway point. It might be why it starts to pick up quite a bit after the barn in season 2. Honestly season 2 was plagued with issues.
Yeah, it's funny to look back at all the showrunner drama with some perspective.
Remember all the hubbub about Frank Darabont leaving (during season 2 IIRC)? At the time people thought the show was doomed without him...as if he was the single person responsible for making or breaking it. He got replaced by Glenn Mazzara (left after season 3), who overall righted the ship, but was rumored to have clashed with producers (including Kirkman) behind the scenes. The decision to boot him got criticized in some circles.
Then Gimple comes in, makes the show better and higher-rated than ever (making AMC happy) while bringing it a little closer to the comic (probably making Kirkman happy), and everyone's forgotten about the past guys and their drama.
...we're almost certain to see more of the pimply kid. Seems like Madison (the mom) will seek him out at some point, since he seems to know more about what's going on than anyone else.
I'm sure that some won't like this ep either thanks to the relative lack of zombie p**n, but I like this series so far. While Alicia and Chris's (I'm forcing myself to use their names so we can start getting them right) actions seemed stereotypical TV/movie teen, they didn't feel phony either. Old fart that I am, I can still remember the days of thinking I was invincible, letting emotion control my actions, and of having strong opinions without much perspective.
I feel like Nick (the addict) may end up being this series' Glenn if he can get himself clean. He seems smart, resourceful and not afraid to take action.
Watched the first two episodes because people told me it wasn't as bad as the main series.
Really the only thing good I can say about this show is that in a show like this if you need to refresh the cast you can just get them all eaten and start over with new characters. Which is exactly what this show needs to do.
How these people keep from just accidentally lighting themselves on fire all the time is a mystery to me. No one survives anything in these shows except by just shear dumb luck alone and that just bugs the crap out of me.
TLDR. Guess I'm just not a TV verse Walking Dead fan in any sense.
Yeah, I dunno what the big "mistakes" were. All I saw was a family trying to round up its scattered members and ride out some bad stuff going down. They don't know the ins-and-outs of zombies, nor that it's an apocalypse.
Besides, it's a television show -- not a survival manual -- in the first place. Although I'm aware that some people watch shows like these for the back-seat-survivalist analysis.
Well so far we've had the flu and some shootouts. Thats not exactly earth shattering in LA. its only now starting to devolve into something different. It should be remembered that this has effectively occurred over less than a 24 hour period.
I dunno. I think the Dawn of the Dead update handled the outbreak better. Even ignoring the fast vs. slow issue, the survivors weren't complete morons when everything started falling apart.
Breotan wrote: I dunno. I think the Dawn of the Dead update handled the outbreak better. Even ignoring the fast vs. slow issue, the survivors weren't complete morons when everything started falling apart.
Again how arew these people idiots (second episode). Dear Dog you have me defending... Californians.
Breotan wrote: I dunno. I think the Dawn of the Dead update handled the outbreak better. Even ignoring the fast vs. slow issue, the survivors weren't complete morons when everything started falling apart.
Again how are these people idiots (second episode)? Dear Dog you have me defending... Californians.
Spoiler:
Teen One is on a bus when things happen.
Family One finds Teen One and gets trapped by government in a lockdown situation (remember Dad said the police had cordoned off and was not letting anyone out).
Teen Two is with boyfriend who has the flu.
Family Two finds Teen Two and takes with them home.
Teen Three has DTs. No medical facilities open so Mom Two goes to where some are. Its empty because the school had been let out but there are teachers are empty school all the time. Remember its not the zombie games yet, its just another day, and they've decided to leave town until everything gets better.
for the homeless man the LEO killed rise up chomping. Did not expect the Goth Chick Zombie moving towards the cop. Still though if I saw a bunch of MOPP 4 clad people hop out the back of a vehicle I run away
for the homeless man the LEO killed rise up chomping. Did not expect the Goth Chick Zombie moving towards the cop. Still though if I saw a bunch of MOPP 4 clad people hop out the back of a vehicle I run away
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
I'll give that you might bail at that point, but right after that the shooting started and they did.
It's important to realize that most - if not all - zombie stories take place in a setting where the concept of zombies, zombieism, re-animated corpses, undead, etc. *DO NOT* exist. If it isn't outright stated, then it can generally be assumed, and an obvious indicator of this is terminology used (you almost never hear the term 'zombie' being used within the fiction for this reason, instead they opt for terms like "walker" etc. As a result, you actually have two advantages over the characters in the fiction - you have the knowledge that the world is experiencing the apocalypse, and you also have the knowledge of the nature of that apocalyspe - which is more than you can say about most horror stories, where you might know that the characters are caught in some supernatural terror, but you generally don't know the *details* of that terror, at least not until some point where the characters themselves learn those same details (personally I think this is why horror sequels tend not to be good. After movie 1 you already know most, if not all, the capabilities and dangers posed by the threat, as well as possibly knowing how to defeat, mitigate, or avoid it. Generally speaking, the characters of a sequel are as clueless as you and the characters were at the start of movie 1, and that disparity in knowledge makes it hard for you to relate, etc.).
Also, does the vulnerability of armed personnel in level 4 MOPP gear bother anyone else? I dont care how hard a zombie is biting, its not going to bite through MOPP gear (now a swarm of zombies getting all handsy and pulling some gear off by mistake is more believable).
Its far too early to be making judgement calls on character stupidity. The gak hasn't hit the fan yet, and won't until maybe halfway through episode 3 when the people killed during the riot begin rising en masse.
Finally got to watch it last night (dang kids) and I liked it. I knew it would have to escalate fast since they only have 7 episodes but I'm liking the pacing so far.
Also failing to see where any of them made any "mistakes". So far I'm liking the show. It's interesting that after Nick reacted instantly to the threat of his dead friend to see how quickly Madison (the mom) reacts to her own dead friend but how she tries to shut the world out once she's home.
I also find it interesting noting how people treat the newly risen in this (because they look so much like themselves still) and see it as a way of the virus could have hit a point of no return. The cop stocking up on water (the MOST vital resource in SoCal in a disaster) was a nice touch too.
I suspect we haven't hit the point of no return by a long shot yet though. I honestly expect that to be the season finale when society fully collapses. I think we get some outbreaks, military rule, and then the collapse.
I do wonder what direction they'll take for next season, whether they go the warlord route or the get out route. Because getting out of the LA area is going to be impossible by car once stuff really hits the fan. There are only so many roads thru the mountains.
Frazzled wrote: And then once you exit the LA basin...its all desert.
Depends on which direction you go. North would be the only reasonable direction where you find something other than desert but essentially yeah, desert....forever....
The viral flu has slowly started engulfing the city of Los Angeles in Fear The Walking Dead. After a terrific start and equally gripping second episode, the AMC original series promises to bring swarming zombies and scattered human emotions with the rest of the episodes of the series.
Till the previous episode, Travis had tried turning into his son Chris's hero all over again as he informs his former wife Liza about the looming danger and the divorced couple track down their son.
The high school teacher saves his family from a violent mob attack and takes refuge with a Spanish family. Madison, on the other hand, is doing everything to keep her daughter from venturing out as the outbreak has reached her neighbourhood.
The synopses of episode 3 and 4 hint at more problems for Madison and Travis as they both try to move out of the city and reach the 'desert'. The couple, who were planning a happy future together, will now try to survive the deadly flu and the violent undeads.
However, the question remains: Will they get separated from each other while saving their respective families? The synopsis of episode 3 titled The Dog reads via TV Guide: Travis, Liza and Chris seek refuge with the Salazar family after escaping a violent riot. Meanwhile, Madison defends her home.
The fourth episode will focus on the government and its dealings with the sudden apocalypse. Episode 4 titled Not Fade Away reads: Madison and Travis witness different sides of the National Guard's occupation of their neighbourhood.
As the Walking Dead companion series proceeds further, it will show how humanity shattered like a house of cards and how new characters will join the lead characters in a bid to survive the deadly apocalypse.
Fear The Walking Dead won't return next Sunday (6 September) and will air episode 3 on 13 September in the US due to the long Labour Day weekend.
Doesn't sound like we'll have to wait long to see the 'military rule' part of things.
I definitely am not, as thats usually what that sort of thing boils down to. World War Z is the only zombie fiction Im aware of that displays an even somewhat competent military response.
chaos0xomega wrote: I definitely am not, as thats usually what that sort of thing boils down to. World War Z is the only zombie fiction Im aware of that displays an even somewhat competent military response.
Agreed. The military is evil schtick is lame. You'll a lot of watchers if you go down that road.
Frazzled wrote: North is still a desert, just a slightly shorter one. Shut off the water from high north and middle Cali reverts to desert in days.
Not quite true, Ventura and Santa Barbara counties along the coast are generally quite livable and in no way considered a desert even with northern water cut off (though they would take a hit now with the silted up rivers). That said it's pretty much the situation between the ocean and the mountains (which is a narrow band) in California, it's also a highly populated one.
In regards to the "military is evilz" I don't think they'll go this route. They were careful to not present it that way in TWD. Most military (or former military) have actually been shown in a pretty positive light. All evidence we've seen is that the military was trying to help until everything fell apart.
I expect it'll be more along the lines of silly bravado and over confidence on the part of the military and a "responding to late" theme. They'll get swallowed up. I mean reasonably the issue is that it's one of the most densely populated metros in the US so anything but a careful plan of how to handle a million+ zombies is something that isn't super likely to work. Especially when the government can't be seen just whole sale slaughtering people who from a distance seem fine. We've already seen that turn into a riot in this episode.
Since the government is keeping it all under wraps it can't respond in the way it would need to to be effective. At least I hope that's the direction it takes. I feel like the national guard are mostly being called in for mass riots and won't really know what's going on at the lower levels.
We shall see on that. Remember TWD-the governor had actually taken over from soldiers that were abusing the group, and the trailer for next week felt wonky.
Frazzled wrote: North is still a desert, just a slightly shorter one. Shut off the water from high north and middle Cali reverts to desert in days.
Not quite true, Ventura and Santa Barbara counties along the coast are generally quite livable and in no way considered a desert even with northern water cut off (though they would take a hit now with the silted up rivers). That said it's pretty much the situation between the ocean and the mountains (which is a narrow band) in California, it's also a highly populated one.
In regards to the "military is evilz" I don't think they'll go this route. They were careful to not present it that way in TWD. Most military (or former military) have actually been shown in a pretty positive light. All evidence we've seen is that the military was trying to help until everything fell apart.
I expect it'll be more along the lines of silly bravado and over confidence on the part of the military and a "responding to late" theme. They'll get swallowed up. I mean reasonably the issue is that it's one of the most densely populated metros in the US so anything but a careful plan of how to handle a million+ zombies is something that isn't super likely to work. Especially when the government can't be seen just whole sale slaughtering people who from a distance seem fine. We've already seen that turn into a riot in this episode.
Since the government is keeping it all under wraps it can't respond in the way it would need to to be effective. At least I hope that's the direction it takes. I feel like the national guard are mostly being called in for mass riots and won't really know what's going on at the lower levels.
Do you not remember Season 1 of TWD when they show what happened to Rick in the hospital and why he didnt become Zombie Food, courtesy of Shane? The military decided to pull out/abandon the hospital, and in the process lined up patients against the wall and filled them with holes?
Frazzled wrote: North is still a desert, just a slightly shorter one. Shut off the water from high north and middle Cali reverts to desert in days.
Not quite true, Ventura and Santa Barbara counties along the coast are generally quite livable and in no way considered a desert even with northern water cut off (though they would take a hit now with the silted up rivers). That said it's pretty much the situation between the ocean and the mountains (which is a narrow band) in California, it's also a highly populated one.
In regards to the "military is evilz" I don't think they'll go this route. They were careful to not present it that way in TWD. Most military (or former military) have actually been shown in a pretty positive light. All evidence we've seen is that the military was trying to help until everything fell apart.
I expect it'll be more along the lines of silly bravado and over confidence on the part of the military and a "responding to late" theme. They'll get swallowed up. I mean reasonably the issue is that it's one of the most densely populated metros in the US so anything but a careful plan of how to handle a million+ zombies is something that isn't super likely to work. Especially when the government can't be seen just whole sale slaughtering people who from a distance seem fine. We've already seen that turn into a riot in this episode.
Since the government is keeping it all under wraps it can't respond in the way it would need to to be effective. At least I hope that's the direction it takes. I feel like the national guard are mostly being called in for mass riots and won't really know what's going on at the lower levels.
Do you not remember Season 1 of TWD when they show what happened to Rick in the hospital and why he didnt become Zombie Food, courtesy of Shane? The military decided to pull out/abandon the hospital, and in the process lined up patients against the wall and filled them with holes?
Yeah, about that.
Which actually finally shows the reasonable approach to the catastrophe in my opinion. That's not representing the military poorly, that's people finally realizing what they need to do to survive.
Also I don't remember that the Gov. in the show took over from soldiers but it has been a few years since woodbury so I could be wrong.
In the show, Woodbury was abandoned when the Governor arrived. In the comic continuity however, the Rise of the Governor novels established that the Governor arrived at Woodbury and found it under a reign of terror by a couple National Guardsmen. The Governor snapped when...
Spoiler:
his brother (Philip) went mad trying to rape and feed a young woman to his undead daughter. Their friend Nick tried to stop him, and ended up killing the brother and the woman. The Governor (Brian) had a mental breakdown on seeing this, killed Nick and assumed the identity of his brother Philip.
The Governor then killed the leader of the National guardsmen and intimidated the others into falling in line. And the town elected the gun toting mad man as Governor.
Philip and nine other survivors holed themselves up in apartment for an unspecified amount of time, before moving out, picking up new group members along the way, and eventually coming upon the abandoned Woodbury. As they secure the town and settle in (whilst their size continues to increase), Philip establishes a leadership role and is branded the nickname "The Governor".
anybody read the zombie survival guide by Max Brooks? I had the book until somebody broke into my locker at work and stole it ( they also stole my George Foreman grill, umbrella, and deep fryer). Great book.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_survival Back on topic
The show is alright so far, some things as other have mentioned could need some fixing. Hopefully this week we can see the reaction from the national guard, police and other first responders.
Do you not remember Season 1 of TWD when they show what happened to Rick in the hospital and why he didnt become Zombie Food, courtesy of Shane? The military decided to pull out/abandon the hospital, and in the process lined up patients against the wall and filled them with holes?
Yeah, about that.
I've not really watched a whole lot of TWD, but wasn't it the case that it was soldiers doing it--not actual orders to do so?
And absolute truth be told, I can't think of anything more logical to do. If the military was pulling out and abandoning the hospital, that's a whole huge buffet that's pretty helpless but potentially able to become a threat to you down the line.
Do you not remember Season 1 of TWD when they show what happened to Rick in the hospital and why he didnt become Zombie Food, courtesy of Shane? The military decided to pull out/abandon the hospital, and in the process lined up patients against the wall and filled them with holes?
Yeah, about that.
I've not really watched a whole lot of TWD, but wasn't it the case that it was soldiers doing it--not actual orders to do so?
And absolute truth be told, I can't think of anything more logical to do. If the military was pulling out and abandoning the hospital, that's a whole huge buffet that's pretty helpless but potentially able to become a threat to you down the line.
Yeah, it was probably more a case of trying to contain outbreaks by eliminating people who've been exposed to the virus. At this point, it probably still hadn't been discovered that everybody was already infected so quarantine was futile, or if the CDC had discovered it, then they'd been unable to communicate that discovery to the military. Communication was breaking down, everybody was panicking (Military and Police included), soldiers would have started taking things into their own hands rather than wait for orders.
In Ep 3 of FTWD, the Military is not yet at that stage of complete panic and breakdown in the chain of command. By Ep 4, perhaps.
A good episode. Really highlighted why people would have trouble at first dealing with fresh zombies since unless there is evidence of wounds that could have killed them they still look like your loved one and are moving.
Loved the fact that they are so fresh that birdshot just bounced off the skull from relatively close on that first shot. The wobbly plane in the background at the end was a nice touch to show it's starting to come apart.
Indeed. I liked how there were zombies doing there thing in the middle of the mob riot, and how the power keeps going on and off. I also like the barber shop dad. He's a survivor, at least until his wife eats him.
The whole "you know how I feel about guns" thing was funny. Even in LA, lots of people have guns.
"Oh good, the military is here. Everything is fine now" -said no one intelligent ever in a movie/TV show
I thought it was an awesome episode. I'm really interested to see how what looks to be martial law will play out. If Lord Acton was correct when he said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," I have a feeling things are about to get worse.
Frazzled wrote: He's a survivor, at least until his wife eats him.
I imagine since they have mentioned where he is from a couple times, it figures a bit into it. El Salvador has definitely had their moments of utter fethin' chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, my wife and I were talking about the end and preview. Looks like the military is 'sealing the noose', starting outside and moving their way in. Is it possible we'll see a major engagement as they try to take back downtown?
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: "Oh good, the military is here. Everything is fine now" -said no intelligent ever in a movie/TV show
Shawn of the Dead actually. It was awesome.
I thought it was an awesome episode. I'm really interested to see how what looks to be martial law will play out. If Lord Acton was correct when he said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," I have a feeling things are about to get worse.
Yea but I really don't need that. We're like days from the usual riot situation. Guard units haven't historically gone off the deep end there. PoPo, well thats a different story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my wife and I were talking about the end and preview. Looks like the military is 'sealing the noose', starting outside and moving their way in. Is it possible we'll see a major engagement as they try to take back downtown?
That would be an AWESOME WWZ scene. Arclight missions on zombie hordes! Not sure if they have the budget though.
Frazzled wrote: He's a survivor, at least until his wife eats him.
I imagine since they have mentioned where he is from a couple times, it figures a bit into it. El Salvador has definitely had their moments of utter fethin' chaos.
Yeah, you can see where things are going to go. It's easy for him to call Travis weak now, but when his wife turns...
I liked the episode, but kinda groaned a little at the end with the 'escape-thwarted-because-of-the-consequences-of-not-doing-something-that-you-should-have-done' situation. It's very much a WD 'thing', but I feel like perhaps the writers go to that well a little too often. The other possibility in my mind as they drove off was that their vehicles would break down one block away (another primary WD 'thing').
And while I think it's quite realistic that Travis and others in this world might not be eager to put down walkers -- thinking they could be saved or somesuch -- I kinda feel like Travis is holding it together a little TOO much, perhaps? He's already seen a bunch of really freaky gak in the past 24 hours, and yet his next door neighbor is merely 'sick'? Not wanting to put her down, fine, but he seems slow to accept that there's even a threat to his family by having Susan growl at them through the fence. I dunno.
But then maybe this is planned and it's kind of a facade on Travis's part that will crack later. Madison, on the other hand, seems to be 'getting it'. And more than ever I think Nick can be their team MVP if he can just get himself clean. Liza and Daniel both seem like handy people to have around too.
Again, I did like the episode, so my issues were definitely in nitpick territory.
Again we have to remember, in their world, there aren't zombies. This is just one step beyond crazy riot.
The guard/ PoPo coming in is the natural step to restore order. If riots and/or a superrabies outbreak had hit they would quarantine and then try to start putting areas back under control.
Personally I was expecting either a quarantine line or just so much traffic they couldn't get out of the LA basin when they waited till morning. The instant they didn't get out during the night they were done.
I love that Nick went immediately to "our neighbors have a gun, let's take it" and then went looking to break into neighbors houses most probably for his fix.
I don't think we're going to get a "military is evil" bit on this. I don't think they have time. We've only got 4 episodes left till the end of the season. I do think we're going to get conflict with the military when they grab the tweaking Nick who is going thru withdrawls because his movements aren't much different from the zombies when you watch him. But I very much got the vibe of people doing their jobs from the military.
Frazzled wrote: Except for the dude pronouncing they are all saved, and the one buttstroking someone with his rifle.
Am I the only one hoping the addict gets a severe lead injection but knowing he's safe?
Those were in the previews. So I'm going to wait for context in the show. Imagine some of the things Rick or Carol has done without context
As far as Nick goes I actually like the character so far (and the actor playing him seems solid). I'm more inclined for the Stepdad to go at the moment but some off hand comments make me wonder if he's not a budding badass.
"You know how I feel about guns" could easily be a I don't like them just because I can use them and "Do you know how many times I've broken my nose" doesn't indicate a sedate life before he went into teaching.
I guess we'll see. Overall I'm enjoying the show. Especially the harder time with fresh zombies and the presentation of how the numbers could grow is interesting. Not sure they could reach critical mass in the amount of time being shown but then again I don't expect the National Guard to be out in force in less than 12 hours either
Really? I don’t think so, I mean, the dude (and to a lesser extent his wife) is the only one who seems to have any clue as to whats going on and how bad the situation is, more than can conveniently be explained by ‘he was an anti-government guerilla during the El Salvadorian Civil War’. Beyond that, I feel like that’s becoming a new trope in zombie fiction, the most notable example of which I can think of is the revelation in World War Z (the film anyway) that Israel had advanced warning of the outbreak years (decades?) before it occurred because of vague intelligence reports & rumors coming out of the Indian bush. I’ve seen similar played out in other less memorable zombie works (you know, the kind of crap you find on discount at Barnes & Noble, alongside all the Game of Thrones and 50 Shades knock-offs), at this point I would be surprised if TWD/FTWD *didn’t* go along with that.
We shall see. it would have had to have been some time ago, as they own the barbershop and appear to have been here multiple years. both the father and daughter speak English.
Also if he wacked the one zombie, why would he have stayed if he knew what they were.
I don't agree. TWD famously avoids getting into the origin, background, and particulars of the superbug, which is probably a good choice for keeping the story focused on the characters. I think Daniel's just a guy who's been through some bad gak and isn't afraid to act decisively based on what his gut tells him.
Regarding Travis, yeah...we might see the switch flip. He just seems to be trying TOO hard -- kinda irrationally, honestly -- to stay on an even keel and act like everything will be fine. He might be a guy with a past who's worked very hard to change himself and exercise extreme self-control.
Frazzled wrote: Again we have to remember, in their world, there aren't zombies. This is just one step beyond crazy riot.
The guard/ PoPo coming in is the natural step to restore order. If riots and/or a superrabies outbreak had hit they would quarantine and then try to start putting areas back under control.
The plane wiggling was cool.
yeah, I kept thinking "WTF anyone born after romero did his thing would know WTF is going on..."
but then you just have to treat it like watchmen, where its an alternative universe where super heroes/zombies are not comics or movies or anything, they are real.
I still cant decide if the level of denial is believable though, but it seems plausable, some characters "get it" and some might be able to get it, but simply do not want to accept what is happening.
They keep doing things like washing dished, taking out trash, playing monopoly ect trying to act normal.
Odd to say the least.
decent series though lets hope it developes well, I look forward to a real large conflict between the military and Z's as that is something most comics/shows just do not address very well. I think in real life a zombie outbreak would be laughable to contain, military can set up all kinds of traps the Z's just walk into, and they are less effective troops then cavemen with clubs, so #'s are not such a huge deal.
decent series though lets hope it developes well, I look forward to a real large conflict between the military and Z's as that is something most comics/shows just do not address very well. I think in real life a zombie outbreak would be laughable to contain, military can set up all kinds of traps the Z's just walk into, and they are less effective troops then cavemen with clubs, so #'s are not such a huge deal.
It is. Rabies breakouts are almost unheard of.
What would be dangerous is the whole...really dead people coming back, because that would be a constant low level societal threat.
But yes, TWD had one bit showing napalming sections of Atlanta. If they did something like that it would be excellent. (and not here's a few guardsmen that get taken down by a dozen zombies, thats low rent thats been done before).
I could see that. I think they have the budget for it. This is a show that is riding the TWD high, only had a 7 episode season order, has already been picked up for season 2 and has been relatively conservative with the first 3 episodes spending. I think they've got the cash to do something big.
I do like how they are likely going to grow the season runs similar to TWD where they keep it shorter for better budgets/episodes to get you hooked and then do longer story arcs and seasons.
Would be nice. A lot could be done with sounds effects "over the horizon" looks.
Indeed, start off with lots of images of helicopters and the sounds of heavy weapons fire, artillery, and air strikes with the GGuys in the house looking out windows. Then have lines of vehicles (or the same around the block 7 times...) moving in to contain the attack or inversely support the advance. More noise, with firefights being heard. Have Aircraft flying right over the house firing away. Then have troops retreating and reforming a new position visible to the window, and starting to fire into unseen area beyond window. Show helicopters right overhead firing down major broadsides into area JUST BEYOND window and troops mad firing at same location. Our heroes break and run from the house right when the riot sized mass of extras from this episode's riot, now done up as zombies, break from the unseen position and hits the guard line like a wave with everything going to chaos.
Well the thing that I think most zombie fiction fails to account for is the non-lethal/physical effects of a bullet. No, a bullet might not kill you, but it will tear up muscle fibers and make it difficult, if not impossible, for you to continue moving. Zombies are no more or less immune to that. Actually, zombies would be less immune, being dead they would, as a rule, be unable to regenerate damaged tissue. Even assuming they didn't decompose, they would eventually be rendered self-immobile, as even the most basic of human movements (walking, breathing, eating, etc.) causes tissue damage, its just that in a healthy human body its such minor damage that its very quickly regenerated.
Well, like my wife, some people can sleep through anything. "What storm? What zombiepocalypse? Why is your father roaming the front yard with a wiffle bat, bottle of Bacardi, and his ZombieGames silver medal winner Tshirt and sandals on, again?"
Well, like my wife, some people can sleep through anything. "What storm? What zombiepocalypse? Why is your father roaming the front yard with a wiffle bat, bottle of Bacardi, and his ZombieGames silver medal winner Tshirt and sandals on, again?"
I was thinking more along the lines of...they'd both put down a walker and stuffed them into the wheelie bins, and were suspiciously eyeing each other.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: "Oh good, the military is here. Everything is fine now" -said no intelligent ever in a movie/TV show
Shawn of the Dead actually. It was awesome.
Shaun of the Dead doesn't really count because it's a parody. But yes, the military does save the day in that movie... but not other zombie movies.
I thought it was an awesome episode. I'm really interested to see how what looks to be martial law will play out. If Lord Acton was correct when he said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," I have a feeling things are about to get worse.
Yea but I really don't need that. We're like days from the usual riot situation. Guard units haven't historically gone off the deep end there. PoPo, well thats a different story.
Well, we know the military doesn't make it any better based on the state of Atlanta in the main series.
We know that, but thats not relevant to the point. The Guard has literally been in LA before for riot situations. They didn't go off the deep end on personal glory trips. They did their jobs.
This would be no different, other than the job is bigger than them.
Frazzled wrote: We know that, but thats not relevant to the point. The Guard has literally been in LA before for riot situations. They didn't go off the deep end on personal glory trips. They did their jobs.
This would be no different, other than the job is bigger than them.
Actually, it is relevant to the point.
You're talking about a real life event, I'm talking about a TV show. You cannot sit there and say, "Because we know how this one unrelated event took place in real life happened, these fake television characters will behave the same way." We've seen that whatever the government's response to the zombie plague was, it was ineffectual. I know this is 2015 and military hero worship is the order of the day, but it wasn't too long ago that the "corrupt military men" trope was a pretty standard (remember the X-Files?). I think it's pretty clearly being set up as such. The Guard is hauling away people that have been "exposed" and part of the group already don't seem to trust the government's response. There was a teaser after the first episode that hinted at this kind of arc.
Also, the 1992 riots =\= societal breakdown caused by zombie apocalypse.
Frazzled wrote: We know that, but thats not relevant to the point. The Guard has literally been in LA before for riot situations. They didn't go off the deep end on personal glory trips. They did their jobs.
This would be no different, other than the job is bigger than them.
Actually, it is relevant to the point.
You're talking about a real life event, I'm talking about a TV show. You cannot sit there and say, "Because we know how this one unrelated event took place in real life happened, these fake television characters will behave the same way." We've seen that whatever the government's response to the zombie plague was, it was ineffectual. I know this is 2015 and military hero worship is the order of the day, but it wasn't too long ago that the "corrupt military men" trope was a pretty standard (remember the X-Files?). I think it's pretty clearly being set up as such. The Guard is hauling away people that have been "exposed" and part of the group already don't seem to trust the government's response. There was a teaser after the first episode that hinted at this kind of arc.
Also, the 1992 riots =\= societal breakdown caused by zombie apocalypse.
Military didn't have worship during the Watts Riots or the King Riots. My point is that, yes its a TV show, but one trying to emulate a semblance of reality. Turning the military into "preGovnor" goes against that mightily. While 1992 riots are different than zombies...THEY don't know its a zombie thing. To them its rioting and civil disturbances related to a disease outbreak.
Corrupt military men is pretty standard. Its also both pretty stupid and pretty boring. If I want a retread I can watch a whole slew of shows.
Frazzled wrote: Military didn't have worship during the Watts Riots or the King Riots. My point is that, yes its a TV show, but one trying to emulate a semblance of reality. Turning the military into "preGovnor" goes against that mightily. While 1992 riots are different than zombies...THEY don't know its a zombie thing. To them its rioting and civil disturbances related to a disease outbreak.
Corrupt military men is pretty standard. Its also both pretty stupid and pretty boring. If I want a retread I can watch a whole slew of shows.
I'll go ahead and get this ready for you, because you're gonna need it:
Anyways, you're still trying to use real world examples of things as a precedence for a fictional TV show not set in our universe. And you don't know what the government doesn't know about the zombie plague (and according to Dr. Jenner at the CDC, the government seems to have known pretty early with what they were dealing with but had no way of stopping it). In the comic book series, the military gets overwhelmed and resorts to using lethal force of both infected and non-infected civilians in an attempt to regain control of the situation (which fails).
You also need to understand that I'm not saying that the entirety of the military is going to be the "bad guy" here, but the show is setting up LA to be under martial law. When you combine the idea that power corrupts and that there is already a couple of characters who seem distrustful of the military's grasp of the situation, you have a recipe for conflict.
1. I like chicken. Crow is too bony. Rodney will however eat a bird bones and all. Its even better if its a week old and disgusting.
2. Lets assume there have been no riots in LA. Thats not carte blanche to then have guard having Little Napoleon syndrome. Its a boring trope thats been done to death.
reading from IMBD it looks like most of the Guard actors are only in two episodes so this will be a short term thing.
Folks, all we're going to see is how this particular group of NG deal with things, and how these families are affected. They'll tease the bigger-scale stuff, but that's it. That's because A) it's been their narrative approach to this point, and B) budgets.
Frazzled wrote: We know that, but thats not relevant to the point. The Guard has literally been in LA before for riot situations. They didn't go off the deep end on personal glory trips. They did their jobs.
This would be no different, other than the job is bigger than them.
Actually, it is relevant to the point.
You're talking about a real life event, I'm talking about a TV show. You cannot sit there and say, "Because we know how this one unrelated event took place in real life happened, these fake television characters will behave the same way." We've seen that whatever the government's response to the zombie plague was, it was ineffectual. I know this is 2015 and military hero worship is the order of the day, but it wasn't too long ago that the "corrupt military men" trope was a pretty standard (remember the X-Files?). I think it's pretty clearly being set up as such. The Guard is hauling away people that have been "exposed" and part of the group already don't seem to trust the government's response. There was a teaser after the first episode that hinted at this kind of arc.
Also, the 1992 riots =\= societal breakdown caused by zombie apocalypse.
Military didn't have worship during the Watts Riots or the King Riots. My point is that, yes its a TV show, but one trying to emulate a semblance of reality. Turning the military into "preGovnor" goes against that mightily. While 1992 riots are different than zombies...THEY don't know its a zombie thing. To them its rioting and civil disturbances related to a disease outbreak.
Corrupt military men is pretty standard. Its also both pretty stupid and pretty boring. If I want a retread I can watch a whole slew of shows.
As of episode 3, I think it's pretty clear that the military knows a great deal more about what's going on . They turn up in Hazmat gear, shoot the eldely lady neighbour on sight, get jumpy and defensive the mom approaches them to ask questions, are quarantining the exposed. By now I expect the low ranked grunts have had more than a few encounters with walkers, and the officers will have at least some idea of the situation across the country. They know this has gone way beyond civil disturbances and riots.
If the military are being set up as antagonists, I think it'll be a result of jumpy distrustful soldiers seeing everyone as a threat and being overzealous when quarantining people. Eventually they'll start panicking as the chain of command breaks down.
Well that's a decent assumption since we saw them taking Nick away in the previews.
I don't see them as being an "evil/corrupt" antagonist. I see them being much like the zombies and being an environmental/faceless factor for character growth.
Well, if they don't go with the 'evil military' angle, they'll probably go with the alternative option (which I actually hate even more than than the evil military option): the 'inept military' angle (which is different from the 'ineffective military angle, wherein the military is utterly useless at containing the situation and falls apart itself just like everything else), wherein the military implements some sort of policy designed to contain the situation, which to us - the viewers - is alltogether reasonable and sensible, but which to the protagonists is entirely unreasonable, utterly illogical, and completely incomprehensible, the only justifiable response to which (in the minds of the protagonists) is to completely ignore and/or willfully violate/subvert, which invariably results in a failure in said policy at a critical juncture which heralds the collapse of the military intervention and spells doom for everyone... except, of course, the protagonists who go on their merry way apparently unaware that they are asshats who just ruined their best chance of survival based on some selfish agenda or self-serving myopic reasoning.
We've already seen evidence of this at the end of this past episode when the Guard shows up and they are, how can I put this politely... slightly less than cooperative in telling the truth about the events that had transpired/who was exposed, all because they are evidently more fearful of being separated in quarantine (or something) by their only hope of salvation than they are of this mysterious new illness that has been turning their friends, loved ones and neighbors into (from their perspective) mindless and semi-invincible cannibals.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, if they don't go with the 'evil military' angle, they'll probably go with the alternative option (which I actually hate even more than than the evil military option): the 'inept military' angle (which is different from the 'ineffective military angle, wherein the military is utterly useless at containing the situation and falls apart itself just like everything else), wherein the military implements some sort of policy designed to contain the situation, which to us - the viewers - is alltogether reasonable and sensible, but which to the protagonists is entirely unreasonable, utterly illogical, and completely incomprehensible, the only justifiable response to which (in the minds of the protagonists) is to completely ignore and/or willfully violate/subvert, which invariably results in a failure in said policy at a critical juncture which heralds the collapse of the military intervention and spells doom for everyone... except, of course, the protagonists who go on their merry way apparently unaware that they are asshats who just ruined their best chance of survival based on some selfish agenda or self-serving myopic reasoning.
We've already seen evidence of this at the end of this past episode when the Guard shows up and they are, how can I put this politely... slightly less than cooperative in telling the truth about the events that had transpired/who was exposed, all because they are evidently more fearful of being separated in quarantine (or something) by their only hope of salvation than they are of this mysterious new illness that has been turning their friends, loved ones and neighbors into (from their perspective) mindless and semi-invincible cannibals.
Except there is a chance the one who wasn't honest is one who is catching on to how it actually seems to spread. So far she has:
a) Seen a dude who was shot several times in the chest get run over by a large vehicle multiple times and not die until he got thrown far enough that his head got crushed.
b) Seen her daughters boyfriend obviously sick who had been bitten by something. So sick she's worried about her daughter and doesn't want her around him.
c) Seen her boss, who looks like he's taken a very serious wound, attack her and a student and try to eat them who only stopped with blunt force trauma to the head
d) Saw her boyfriend/husband attacked by a neighbor who took birdshot to the face from less than 10 feet and then only stopped at point blank when he took another shot that actually broke his head.
e) Has had time to register the differences because of her neighbor in the backyard and was about to do what needed doing in the only way she's seen them be stopped.
So realistically in the show she seems to be catching on. She's had blood on her from infected individuals and so has her family. None of them are sick. She knows her boss wasn't sick less than 12 hours before he turned. It's been over 12 hours since she got his blood all over her (longer actually for her son, her, and her boyfriend). And she's just seen the military execute the afflicted on site and disappear her neighbor who just had blood on him.
Like it or not on the scale we're talking about you wouldn't be able to properly quarantine the population of Los Angeles that had been afflicted. Not if you're considering anyone in contact with the fluid at some point and it's as wide spread as it has appeared so far. Logically, and the main female lead seems very logical, that people possibly infected are going to be locked in with people who could turn flesh eating crazy/undead at any minute. It's a recipe for disaster from the get go and she's already taking steps to ensure if she turns she's taken care of. We've already seen they are taking poor steps to contain. Proper steps would have been to actually go public instead of keeping it quiet. Since that didn't happen the rest won't work. People might panic and be stupid but you can probably contain it if for every person freaking out there is a person who takes the information and helps instead of spending his time not knowing what's going on.
It's a zombie show. I've read a whole 1 series on a reasonable "zombie" outbreak that reached apocalyptic levels (see John Ringo's Under a Graveyard Sky). And it still had to jump the shark a bit and involved an actual designer disease with a 2 week+ infectious but no symptoms period and wasn't actual zombies (i.e. risen dead). Things are going to have to screw up somewhere for this to get out of control. And humans are capable of extreme stupid. And to be fair for everyone to die in somewhere like LA you only need about a week of no power/water and a non-national support movement to get water into the area and poof, millions of zombies.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, if they don't go with the 'evil military' angle, they'll probably go with the alternative option (which I actually hate even more than than the evil military option): the 'inept military' angle (which is different from the 'ineffective military angle, wherein the military is utterly useless at containing the situation and falls apart itself just like everything else), wherein the military implements some sort of policy designed to contain the situation, which to us - the viewers - is alltogether reasonable and sensible, but which to the protagonists is entirely unreasonable, utterly illogical, and completely incomprehensible, the only justifiable response to which (in the minds of the protagonists) is to completely ignore and/or willfully violate/subvert, which invariably results in a failure in said policy at a critical juncture which heralds the collapse of the military intervention and spells doom for everyone... except, of course, the protagonists who go on their merry way apparently unaware that they are asshats who just ruined their best chance of survival based on some selfish agenda or self-serving myopic reasoning.
We've already seen evidence of this at the end of this past episode when the Guard shows up and they are, how can I put this politely... slightly less than cooperative in telling the truth about the events that had transpired/who was exposed, all because they are evidently more fearful of being separated in quarantine (or something) by their only hope of salvation than they are of this mysterious new illness that has been turning their friends, loved ones and neighbors into (from their perspective) mindless and semi-invincible cannibals.
So realistically in the show she seems to be catching on. She's had blood on her from infected individuals and so has her family. None of them are sick. She knows her boss wasn't sick less than 12 hours before he turned. It's been over 12 hours since she got his blood all over her (longer actually for her son, her, and her boyfriend). And she's just seen the military execute the afflicted on site and disappear her neighbor who just had blood on him.
Like it or not on the scale we're talking about you wouldn't be able to properly quarantine the population of Los Angeles that had been afflicted. Not if you're considering anyone in contact with the fluid at some point and it's as wide spread as it has appeared so far. Logically, and the main female lead seems very logical, that people possibly infected are going to be locked in with people who could turn flesh eating crazy/undead at any minute. It's a recipe for disaster from the get go and she's already taking steps to ensure if she turns she's taken care of. We've already seen they are taking poor steps to contain. Proper steps would have been to actually go public instead of keeping it quiet. Since that didn't happen the rest won't work. People might panic and be stupid but you can probably contain it if for every person freaking out there is a person who takes the information and helps instead of spending his time not knowing what's going on.
We havent seen enough of the military response to know what it is they know and how they are handling it.
Also what you (and I think most fans) are quick to dismiss (if not outright forgetting about it) is that there is an actual contagious illness associated with zombieism. As in, there is some illness that affects the living infected with flu-like symptoms for some period of time prior to them dying and then reanimating. This illness is never really addressed in the show (or within the wider mythos) from what I recall. We don't really know how that spreads, only that it does spread and it doesn't necessarily require a bite (otherwise there wouldnt have been mass illness amongst the still living population well before people started going psycho cannibal). From TWD we know that everyone is theoretically infected and will reanimate on death, but we dont know why, suddenly, a large chunk of the population (but not all) suddenly and simultaneously fell ill, dropped dead, and suddenly stood back up. Beyond that, its always been a bit of a major scientific plothole that a bite is the only vector of transmission and exposure to bodily fluids isn't, particularly when the CDC research was based around blood samples from the infected which were still active viral agents. In other words, the military is correct to isolate and quarantine those who have had contact with the infected, because there is still an unexplained and unknown vector of transmission. On top of that, we can reasonably assume they have figured out that biting = infection, one would assume they would check for bites before sticking someone into quarantine and risking propagation.
Similar issue with World War Z mind you, Brad Pitt gets blood/saliva in the mouth but inexplicably doesnt turn despite exposure to the medium through which the viral agent is carried & transmitted. I thought it would turn out that he was one of the immunes, but that was not the case.
So realistically in the show she seems to be catching on. She's had blood on her from infected individuals and so has her family. None of them are sick. She knows her boss wasn't sick less than 12 hours before he turned. It's been over 12 hours since she got his blood all over her (longer actually for her son, her, and her boyfriend). And she's just seen the military execute the afflicted on site and disappear her neighbor who just had blood on him.
Like it or not on the scale we're talking about you wouldn't be able to properly quarantine the population of Los Angeles that had been afflicted. Not if you're considering anyone in contact with the fluid at some point and it's as wide spread as it has appeared so far. Logically, and the main female lead seems very logical, that people possibly infected are going to be locked in with people who could turn flesh eating crazy/undead at any minute. It's a recipe for disaster from the get go and she's already taking steps to ensure if she turns she's taken care of. We've already seen they are taking poor steps to contain. Proper steps would have been to actually go public instead of keeping it quiet. Since that didn't happen the rest won't work. People might panic and be stupid but you can probably contain it if for every person freaking out there is a person who takes the information and helps instead of spending his time not knowing what's going on.
We havent seen enough of the military response to know what it is they know and how they are handling it.
Also what you (and I think most fans) are quick to dismiss (if not outright forgetting about it) is that there is an actual contagious illness associated with zombieism. As in, there is some illness that affects the living infected with flu-like symptoms for some period of time prior to them dying and then reanimating. This illness is never really addressed in the show (or within the wider mythos) from what I recall. We don't really know how that spreads, only that it does spread and it doesn't necessarily require a bite (otherwise there wouldnt have been mass illness amongst the still living population well before people started going psycho cannibal). From TWD we know that everyone is theoretically infected and will reanimate on death, but we dont know why, suddenly, a large chunk of the population (but not all) suddenly and simultaneously fell ill, dropped dead, and suddenly stood back up. Beyond that, its always been a bit of a major scientific plothole that a bite is the only vector of transmission and exposure to bodily fluids isn't, particularly when the CDC research was based around blood samples from the infected which were still active viral agents. In other words, the military is correct to isolate and quarantine those who have had contact with the infected, because there is still an unexplained and unknown vector of transmission. On top of that, we can reasonably assume they have figured out that biting = infection, one would assume they would check for bites before sticking someone into quarantine and risking propagation.
Similar issue with World War Z mind you, Brad Pitt gets blood/saliva in the mouth but inexplicably doesnt turn despite exposure to the medium through which the viral agent is carried & transmitted. I thought it would turn out that he was one of the immunes, but that was not the case.
A good point about the viral disease. And one I should have addressed since it plays a part in the previously mentioned decent zombie apoc books .
I think the viral aspect is yeah, generally under discussed because it causes more problems than it solves. Easier to gloss over. No one in TWD ever mentioned someone just getting sick and then turning. Everyone talks about people dying or being bitten and coming back. So maybe there isn't an actual flu like viral outbreak in the show at all. And that if it does it's tied to weakening the immune system at the same time maybe they are hit by the normal flu. Or maybe (and most reasonable) this is the year that the contagion everyone has combined with an epically bad bird flu-esque super bug that is what is actually killing people, not the zombie disease, the zombie disease just picks up where that leaves off. It's honestly the only way any of it works when I think about it. And that's if there is an actual viral contagion at work. They are saying people are sick but are they sick like we think it or dead and risen already or hiding from the bug?
That said while quarantining the population that has been exposed to the fluids may seem like a good idea my point still stands on the feasibility of proceeding with that process in a metro like LA. And knowing you're not sick and haven't been sick while being around kids who started not showing up from being sick and neither is your man who is also a teacher or the nurse/student other mom or your kids and you can see why jumping into a quarantine with people that might actually turn would be considered a bad idea. Besides, they were planning on isolating themselves anyway, the military is actually increasing their exposure to infected individuals
Also what you (and I think most fans) are quick to dismiss (if not outright forgetting about it) is that there is an actual contagious illness associated with zombieism. As in, there is some illness that affects the living infected with flu-like symptoms for some period of time prior to them dying and then reanimating. This illness is never really addressed in the show (or within the wider mythos) from what I recall.
No there isn't. We've been over this ad nauseam in the main TWD thread.
The "virus" itself is not what kills a person, it merely remains dormant until the point of death at which point it reanimates the body and takes over. We don't even know what it really is. What kills people is anything and everything BUT the "virus" - gunshots, stab wounds, mundane real world viruses, the nasty bacteria festering in the rotting mouths of walkers, starvation, dehydration, suffocation...
We don't know that the "flu-like symptoms" associated with Walker bites are anything other than sepsis (blood poisoning), the result of real world mundane but quite nasty micro-organisms such as E-Coli that you might expect to find in the festering mouths of rotting undead creatures. The author himself, Robert Kirkman, has made it explicitly clear that its not the Zombie "Virus" that kills you, its merely what reanimates you; and that they have no interest in establishing firm rules on how their interpretation of Zombieism works.
We don't really know how that spreads, only that it does spread and it doesn't necessarily require a bite (otherwise there wouldnt have been mass illness amongst the still living population well before people started going psycho cannibal). From TWD we know that everyone is theoretically infected and will reanimate on death, but we dont know why, suddenly, a large chunk of the population (but not all) suddenly and simultaneously fell ill, dropped dead, and suddenly stood back up.
My guess is that whatever this thing is, it remained dormant whilst it spread throughout the population before it began to activate en masse. Maybe it has an extremely long incubation period or something, which might explain how it spread so far before undead walkers began materializing everywhere all at once. But this is of course speculation, considering that the authors have explicitly stated that even they don't know how it works because they don't care to define it.
Beyond that, its always been a bit of a major scientific plothole that a bite is the only vector of transmission and exposure to bodily fluids isn't,
The entire show is a plot hole. We don't know how the disease originally transmitted and we never will. Everybody already has it. By the time it began to activate (by reanimating corpses) and the authorities became aware of it, it had already spread throughout pretty much the entire world population (so far as we know). Trying to come up with rational explanations for something that by the author's own admission hasn't been and never will be given a canonical rational explanation is futile speculation and jumping through mental hoops. Its like trying to come up with rational scientific explanations for how Doctor Who's Sonic Screwdriver works.
Think of the TWD zombie outbreak as a setting. Its deliberately vague and loosely defined, because its purpose is to facilitate character development.
So realistically in the show she seems to be catching on. She's had blood on her from infected individuals and so has her family. None of them are sick. She knows her boss wasn't sick less than 12 hours before he turned. It's been over 12 hours since she got his blood all over her (longer actually for her son, her, and her boyfriend). And she's just seen the military execute the afflicted on site and disappear her neighbor who just had blood on him.
Like it or not on the scale we're talking about you wouldn't be able to properly quarantine the population of Los Angeles that had been afflicted. Not if you're considering anyone in contact with the fluid at some point and it's as wide spread as it has appeared so far. Logically, and the main female lead seems very logical, that people possibly infected are going to be locked in with people who could turn flesh eating crazy/undead at any minute. It's a recipe for disaster from the get go and she's already taking steps to ensure if she turns she's taken care of. We've already seen they are taking poor steps to contain. Proper steps would have been to actually go public instead of keeping it quiet. Since that didn't happen the rest won't work. People might panic and be stupid but you can probably contain it if for every person freaking out there is a person who takes the information and helps instead of spending his time not knowing what's going on.
We havent seen enough of the military response to know what it is they know and how they are handling it.
Also what you (and I think most fans) are quick to dismiss (if not outright forgetting about it) is that there is an actual contagious illness associated with zombieism. As in, there is some illness that affects the living infected with flu-like symptoms for some period of time prior to them dying and then reanimating. This illness is never really addressed in the show (or within the wider mythos) from what I recall. We don't really know how that spreads, only that it does spread and it doesn't necessarily require a bite (otherwise there wouldnt have been mass illness amongst the still living population well before people started going psycho cannibal). From TWD we know that everyone is theoretically infected and will reanimate on death, but we dont know why, suddenly, a large chunk of the population (but not all) suddenly and simultaneously fell ill, dropped dead, and suddenly stood back up. Beyond that, its always been a bit of a major scientific plothole that a bite is the only vector of transmission and exposure to bodily fluids isn't, particularly when the CDC research was based around blood samples from the infected which were still active viral agents. In other words, the military is correct to isolate and quarantine those who have had contact with the infected, because there is still an unexplained and unknown vector of transmission. On top of that, we can reasonably assume they have figured out that biting = infection, one would assume they would check for bites before sticking someone into quarantine and risking propagation.
Similar issue with World War Z mind you, Brad Pitt gets blood/saliva in the mouth but inexplicably doesnt turn despite exposure to the medium through which the viral agent is carried & transmitted. I thought it would turn out that he was one of the immunes, but that was not the case.
A good point about the viral disease. And one I should have addressed since it plays a part in the previously mentioned decent zombie apoc books .
I think the viral aspect is yeah, generally under discussed because it causes more problems than it solves. Easier to gloss over. No one in TWD ever mentioned someone just getting sick and then turning. Everyone talks about people dying or being bitten and coming back. So maybe there isn't an actual flu like viral outbreak in the show at all. And that if it does it's tied to weakening the immune system at the same time maybe they are hit by the normal flu. Or maybe (and most reasonable) this is the year that the contagion everyone has combined with an epically bad bird flu-esque super bug that is what is actually killing people, not the zombie disease, the zombie disease just picks up where that leaves off. It's honestly the only way any of it works when I think about it. And that's if there is an actual viral contagion at work. They are saying people are sick but are they sick like we think it or dead and risen already or hiding from the bug?
That said while quarantining the population that has been exposed to the fluids may seem like a good idea my point still stands on the feasibility of proceeding with that process in a metro like LA. And knowing you're not sick and haven't been sick while being around kids who started not showing up from being sick and neither is your man who is also a teacher or the nurse/student other mom or your kids and you can see why jumping into a quarantine with people that might actually turn would be considered a bad idea. Besides, they were planning on isolating themselves anyway, the military is actually increasing their exposure to infected individuals
Interesting.
1. The flu everyone is getting maybe the bug. We haven't seen anyone die from that alone have we? Maybe you get the flu, then if you die/bit it activates, which explains why it hasn't occurred before.
2. What we have seen is someone being bitten complaining of the flu. Maybe all the people with the bug were actually bitten?
Maybe they were all bitten by zombie insects? lol Big bites suck. Regardless though, if people are dying from a pandemic bloodborne disease that causes flu like symptoms but is otherwise unrelated to the zombie situation (except that it kills you thereby allowing you to reanimate), the military is still right to quarantine people whove had contact with the bodily fluids of the deceased, if nothing else it decreases the chance of continued spread of a disease that is evidently highly contagious as well as lethal, and I would imagine that the high rate of coincidence between what are ostensibly two separate diseases (which Im still not convinced of, as many bite victims in TWD display the same flulike symptoms before dying) would be cause for alarm as well as an avenue of medical research towards finding an antiviral (or as I understand it an antifungal) or a vaccine, if not a cure.
BTW, correct me if Im wrong, but I dont remember zombies ever going after non-human organisms in TWD. From what I recall, in more than a couple instances, there were dogs around and the walkers completely ignored them? or am I thinking of something else?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Think of the TWD zombie outbreak as a setting. Its deliberately vague and loosely defined, because its purpose is to facilitate character development.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, TWD (the show) explained that it was a fungal spore infection or whatever that had affected every living human on earth, so theres that...
Citation needed. Which episode?
If you're referring to the Season 1 finale when the CDC Doctor explains his research to Rick, all he can say is [paraphrased]:
"I have no idea what this thing is, but whatever it is, it only reanimates the most primitive parts of the brain and not the parts responsible for human consciousness. The person that a walker used to be, is dead and gone".
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, TWD (the show) explained that it was a fungal spore infection or whatever that had affected every living human on earth, so theres that...
In the show they know everyone on earth "is affected" by "it", but have zero clue what "it" is, they don't know if its an infection (viral, funal, bacterial, ect) or anything specific, they just know everyone is already affected.
It could be anything at this point, magic, hell being full with the dead coming back, or some zombie making fungus, or super rabies.
Huh, for whatever reason I seem to remember Jenner saying that it was fungal specifically in the CDC episode of season 1 (I believe it was the part where theyre showing the xray or whatever of the dead humans nervous system and brain tissue turning black as the infection kicks into effect), but maybe I'm wrong about that.
chaos0xomega wrote: Huh, for whatever reason I seem to remember Jenner saying that it was fungal specifically in the CDC episode of season 1 (I believe it was the part where theyre showing the xray or whatever of the dead humans nervous system and brain tissue turning black as the infection kicks into effect), but maybe I'm wrong about that.
No, he said it could be fungal...or microbial...or viral.
So I managed to see the first 2 episodes of Fear the Walking Dead - doubt I will bother with more.
Not sure why they had to make the main characters so very unlikeable and selfish.....
We get:
Needy drug addict victim guy – so very annoying - another "oh woe is me for my life is so pampered but screw it up and everyone elses"
Neurotic selfish Mother – her son is the only thing in her life – another Lori in the making sadly
Dull not overly bright and well meaning Step Dad – who is happy to ignore murders
his angry teenage son and ex wife - dull
At least the daughter seemed to be at least concerned with other people other than her broken family. Of course her mother stops her helping people being attacked, or her boyfriend
I get that disasters can bring out the worst in people but it can also bring out the best - I liked the S1 episode of Walking Dead when the main cast encounter the armed gangers and it actually turns out they are defending the old people's home.
Been nice to see their story……..
Instead we get the trials of a bunch of wealthy and entitled …………
Long ago I decided that Mr. Morden and I live in different dimensions. Sometimes people have such wildly different opinions on the same thing that alternate universes are the only explanation.
Instead we get the trials of a bunch of wealthy and entitled …………
...are they showing you a different version over there in the UK?
#
Don't think so? Which bit did I get wrong?
All the protagonists I saw in the first two episodes were middle class professionals "struggling" with their lives - especially the cowardly drug addict loser who has been indulged all his life but still can't cope? Like I said only the daughter seemed to have any empathy for anyone other than herself or ehr immediate family?
The shop owners seemed to be a bit more realistic but do they survive or do they sacrifce them so that the middle class "heroes" can survive to flail around uselessly?
As I said the sheer single minded selfishness of the protagnoists was off putting. Do they get any better? The Mother was the worst in this regard.
I found the mom to be the most thoughtful of the bunch. But we're probably watching different shows. Just in the first two episodes we see her:
-Take steps to protect a student from expulsion -Try to warn her neighbors -Take care of her daughter to ensure she's safe -Offer to take in a kid from her school
This doesn't even touch on the last episode that aired.
I'm honestly not sure where you get selfish from. Do you expect her to run out gather a horde of humanity to lead against the zombies? How is it selfish to look after your family. She didn't even hesitate when her boyfriend needed to leave to get his kid.
Also why the condemnation for the "middle class"? Where did you expect them to draw the protagonists from?
Hulksmash wrote: Odd, I found the mom to be the most thoughtful of the bunch. But we're probably watching different shows. Just in the first two episodes we see her:
-Take steps to protect a student from expulsion
-Try to warn her neighbors
-Take care of her daughter to ensure she's safe
-Offer to take in a kid from her school
I'm honestly not sure where you get selfish from. Do you expect her to run out gather a horde of humanity to lead against the zombies? How is it selfish to look after your family. She didn't even hesitate when her boyfriend needed to leave to get his kid.
Also why the condemnation for the "middle class"? Where did you expect them to draw the protagonists from?
"Do you expect her to gather a horde of humanity " Did I say that - no i didn't - was resorting to over the top examples needed?
When did she try and warn her neighbours? Not in the 1st two spisodes - even after seeing the dead and killing them - she remains totally silent -even when her daughter ask she won't tell her. No she lets them mess about with a kids party and goes off to get the drugs for her son.
She has little to no interest in her daughter - seldom if ever knows where she is and hides the truth from her as much as possible.
The kid at the school helps her - she manages to save him from the zombie but then dumps him.
As I actually stated she is obsessed with her son (fair enough) but to the total exclusion of everyone else - she does not care about the deaths of anyone else that he had been with - and is extremely dismissve of it "bad things happen".
Her daughter is trying to help her boyfriend and she is just interested in getting back to the drug addict. her daughter wants to help the neighbour whose husband is attacking her and her chidlren but is stopped - could they have saved the wife and kids, - quite possibly. Sheould they have tried - maybe, maybe not but it was an insight into her character. But no she just listens to the screams of a women and her children being eaten alive. It happens in life that people will ignore such things but now and again I would like at least some of the protanginsts to rise above the worst in humanity.
Again as I actually stated in previous post - seeing the evolution say of the gangers from bad guys to protectors would have been more interesting than this bunch of self obsessed losers who almost without exception show no interest in others. Why does it have to be only the middle class in the show?
Oh and I thought from the media that Americans had lots of guns - why is it in TV shows that no one seems to have one apart from criminals and cops?
gorgon wrote: Long ago I decided that Mr. Morden and I live in different dimensions. Sometimes people have such wildly different opinions on the same thing that alternate universes are the only explanation.
And I can see that this is the case once again.
The wife agrees with Morden. I just look on it as so much more excellent when they die.
Alpharius wrote: That the characters are 'wealthy and entitled'?!?
Are you OK with the wife existing in the same Alternate Dimension as Mr. M?
The Family are middle class professionals? They certainly are not poor?
Well, they definitely aren't wealthy either, unless your only description of someone's economic status is "wealthy" or "poor."
They seem to live in a middle class neighborhood and have a normal sized house. I'm not entirely familiar with the housing market in LA, but it doesn't seem like it's that outrageously priced where the show is set.
Well that was a strange episode. *When did the daughter finally get religion? *So why did they cart off the druggie? *WHy did they go into the house stormtrooper like? That was way OT and very Hollywood to make them look like the bad guys. If they were just carting them off for "special treatment" why did they want the fake nurse to come help? *If they are patrolling within the perimeter why are they shooting humans?
Interview with the showrunner about the trash we witnessed last night. While the show was painting the military as the villain, it seems that 'behind the scenes' much more is going on, and the military are really the good guys but things aren't going well, or some junk like that.
So, it seems to me, that FTWD did something nobody has ever done before: they combined the "inept military", the "ineffective military" and "military as villain" tropes into a single mega-trope of fail.
Interview with the showrunner about the trash we witnessed last night. While the show was painting the military as the villain, it seems that 'behind the scenes' much more is going on, and the military are really the good guys but things aren't going well, or some junk like that.
So, it seems to me, that FTWD did something nobody has ever done before: they combined the "inept military", the "ineffective military" and "military as villain" tropes into a single mega-trope of fail.
That's how it plays out in the comic book more or less. They start to get a handle on the situation, helping the uninfected and securing the safe zones. But then the cities began to collapse and the military started using lethal force on both the infected and uninfected before eventually being overrun. It's always been pretty heavily implied that the government knows a lot about what is going on then they lead citizens to believe and I think the show reflects that.
The military isn't really the 'bad guy,' at least to the outside observer (read: the viewer). The "massacre" that they talk about in that interview seems like it was started by the civilians; they didn't want to leave (which they should have) and so they resisted (which proved costly). They're doing what has to be done to prevent the plague from spreading. As viewers, we know that this is ultimately futile, but the characters and the military/government don't know that yet. It isn't that they're inept or ineffective, they just can't keep up with the rising number of zombies (an idea that certainly isn't new if you've read the comics or watched The Walking Dead).
We, the audience, are supposed to like the main character and cheer him on.
The main character is usually the first contemporary character the audience is introduced to. I the case of FTWD, this is the druggie son.
So we are supposed to like this punk who has no qualms laying directly under a man as he twitches and gurgles in agony as he steals that man’s medicine. Really? I’m supposed to relate to this human refuse?
When the guards were in the house, I was hoping they put a bullet in his brain. I was disappointed.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote: We, the audience, are supposed to like the main character and cheer him on.
The main character is usually the first contemporary character the audience is introduced to. I the case of FTWD, this is the druggie son.
So we are supposed to like this punk who has no qualms laying directly under a man as he twitches and gurgles in agony as he steals that man’s medicine. Really? I’m supposed to relate to this human refuse?
When the guards were in the house, I was hoping they put a bullet in his brain. I was disappointed.
He did get the buttstock facial, so there's that.
You have an excellent point.
Compare and contrast TWD Season One. All the protagonists are basically good people. The only bad one was the wife abuser and he didn't last long.
FWD so far...the only one I like is the barber. They play the daughter like a teen girl. News flash most teen girls are annoying just like that.
Travis and Madison are pretty clearly the show's leads, and I don't see what's *unlikeable* about them. You may not agree with their decision-making at times (especially if "what you WANNA do here during a zombie apocalypse is..." is your thing), but they seem like good, normal, middle-class people to me. I don't get it.
Nick...is a junkie. If you've ever known anyone with a substance abuse problem, you know how it can make otherwise good people do bad things. Here I was thinking that it was very unrealistic that he'd gotten clean so easily in a few weeks. That's a battle that people tend to lose rather than win even in perfect conditions.
Regarding the National Guard unit, I also don't see what's so awful about their characterization, unless we're pulling a faux patriotism thing. The officer seems like a jagoff, but the guardsmen (from the little we've seen) seem like they're under control and doing their jobs as they've been told in the most extreme of situations. And EVERYONE is staring down and dealing with the fact that this may be the end of civilization, if not the species.
See, I thought that was the point of Travis's rooftop moment. Not that "OMG, the military is bad!" It was "OMG, the situation IS THAT BAD!", echoing Madison's findings. I think they all understand it at some level, it's just that a few of them have accepted it sooner than others. Madison was much farther down the path than anyone except Daniel or Nick, hence her journey through the fence. Liza seems to realize it's an opportunity to be more in the post-apocalypse world than she was during normal times. It'll be interesting to see if the rooftop is what flips Travis's "ON" switch like some of us have been talking about.
Obviously, other people feel differently than me, but I think it's been interesting watching these individuals each deal with the end of civilization. It's not a perfect show or narrative, but I have a hard time raising any bile about it. *shrug*
I dunno, to me the Guard/military was being painted up to look like the villains here, mind you not of the mustache twirling variety, but of the 'we're at odds with the morality of the protagonists' variety. I think, this is the result of a portrayal through the forced perspective *of* the protagonists. We're only be shown the public side of their actions, we aren't shown the whos, the whats, the wheres, and the whys. We don't know whos in charge, what they know, what theyre doing, why they're doing it, etc. So they could be undertaking actions and behavior with the best intentions, with absolutely nothing sinister about it, yet to us, through the eyes of the protagonists, it would appear as though there was some shadowy and sinister going on. The inept factor is coming into play, because we already see that at least some of the main characters are dead set on violating the rules and policies that are being put in place by their protectors (again, because their skewed sense of morality mixed with a hyperactive survival instinct seems to trump any amount of logic or reasoning). The ineffective aspect is there because it is hinted that the crisis response isn't going as well as they would like people to believe.
Also, realistically, if the military response was able to establish the sorts of safe zones shown and described in this episode, then I think, in the real world, we could go ahead and say crisis probably averted (particularly if the response to those outside the wire is as brutal as whats being shown here), with the exception that the fact that *any* death, and not just an 'infection', leading to reanimation would complicate matters of maintaining effective quarantine.
I agree that because of the focus the military is being shown in a "villainous" fashion. That said outside of the pure dickishness of the commander (which could just be due to bluntness and stress) I didn't feel like military was intentionally evil or taking people out back and shooting them. I got a vibe of people who have already seen some gak and genuinely feel like they're doing the right thing.
Something to consider is that the military has only cleared 6 miles from the hills. If the other "camps" are similarly situated they haven't even touched on the population of Los Angeles. So the situation is far from "contained" in a modern situation.
That 6 mile cordone is as much for the safety of the troops as the people in the camps. They need the buffer and they need a safe line of retreat. If they miss potential zombies on the way out they could be accidentally cut off.
Again I think the issue isn't that the military is inept it falls back on the actual government who are hiding what is happening from the people. Granted the choice to grab people in the middle of the night is stupid and paints a poor picture but that might be orders. It's certainly has to be orders to not talk at all about what's going on and where the hospital is. I don't think they are against the character morality. It's that since there aren't allowed to talk to people about their reasons they appear that way to the characters.
Overall I'm still enjoying the show and it's ramping up well. I like Madison, Nick, the Salazar Daughter and Daniel most right now as they are people that each in their own way are survivors and are already accepting the situation. The sister, Travis, his son are meh but at least mildly interesting.
The mom is an annoying bag of crazy, and the characters are written to be so ungodly unlikeable.
Seriously, the mom and daughter watched their neighbor literally get chased down and attacked, and then not only did they turn away without question, they went and played Monopoly! Are you fething serious?
AegisGrimm wrote: Seriously, the mom and daughter watched their neighbor literally get chased down and attacked, and then not only did they turn away without question, they went and played Monopoly! Are you fething serious?
I saw that scene as representing the characters' denial of the events taking place around them. The mother didn't want to expose her children to what was outside, and so she opted for "family game night" instead. Trying to spin a horrible moment into one of normality. I don't see that state of denial being much different than a family averting their eyes from a homeless person on the street as they casually walk into a restaurant for dinner. Sure, the family knows the homeless person is likely hungry, but they ignore that knowledge in the hope of having a pleasant evening out.
Perhaps that is a larger theme the show is trying to present--the callousness of society, especially urban society, is partially responsible for humanity's fall.
Zombies have always supposed to be holding up a mirror to our society, ever since the romero days.
Its a critique on out the general state of apathy, disconnectedness, denial, ect that post modern society seems to be swimming in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AegisGrimm wrote: The mom is an annoying bag of crazy, and the characters are written to be so ungodly unlikeable.
Seriously, the mom and daughter watched their neighbor literally get chased down and attacked, and then not only did they turn away without question, they went and played Monopoly! Are you fething serious?
in real life, during the first world war, there was a day when they took a break from fighting to play footbal, then went back to slaughtering each other in no mans land.
People in crazy situations crave normality, even if an observer things its odd
AegisGrimm wrote: Seriously, the mom and daughter watched their neighbor literally get chased down and attacked, and then not only did they turn away without question, they went and played Monopoly! Are you fething serious?
I saw that scene as representing the characters' denial of the events taking place around them. The mother didn't want to expose her children to what was outside, and so she opted for "family game night" instead. Trying to spin a horrible moment into one of normality. I don't see that state of denial being much different than a family averting their eyes from a homeless person on the street as they casually walk into a restaurant for dinner. Sure, the family knows the homeless person is likely hungry, but they ignore that knowledge in the hope of having a pleasant evening out.
Perhaps that is a larger theme the show is trying to present--the callousness of society, especially urban society, is partially responsible for humanity's fall.
If that's the bit from episode 2 - it was worse than that - the daughter actually wanted to help and was prepared to do so but her mother stopped her. So they ignored the screams until the stopped - it was a mother with children being attacked.
Stuff like that happens and yeah not everyone in the show can be heroic or likeable - but the mother and the drug addict loser son are the total opposite. Isn't she supposed to be a counsellor or something and actually have some empathy for others?
I agree that because of the focus the military is being shown in a "villainous" fashion. That said outside of the pure dickishness of the commander (which could just be due to bluntness and stress) I didn't feel like military was intentionally evil or taking people out back and shooting them. I got a vibe of people who have already seen some gak and genuinely feel like they're doing the right thing.
Something to consider is that the military has only cleared 6 miles from the hills. If the other "camps" are similarly situated they haven't even touched on the population of Los Angeles. So the situation is far from "contained" in a modern situation.
That 6 mile cordone is as much for the safety of the troops as the people in the camps. They need the buffer and they need a safe line of retreat. If they miss potential zombies on the way out they could be accidentally cut off.
Again I think the issue isn't that the military is inept it falls back on the actual government who are hiding what is happening from the people. Granted the choice to grab people in the middle of the night is stupid and paints a poor picture but that might be orders. It's certainly has to be orders to not talk at all about what's going on and where the hospital is. I don't think they are against the character morality. It's that since there aren't allowed to talk to people about their reasons they appear that way to the characters.
Overall I'm still enjoying the show and it's ramping up well. I like Madison, Nick, the Salazar Daughter and Daniel most right now as they are people that each in their own way are survivors and are already accepting the situation. The sister, Travis, his son are meh but at least mildly interesting.
Is it me but they seem to be playing the district officer or whoewver he is as a royal dick BUT...in real life how would this guy have time to talk to anyone much less play golf. He is in the middle of a combination refugee center/disaster zone surrounded by a war they are losing. He's not going to have time to play golf and be a dick. Thats what I don't understand.
The golf thing bothered me. Every other interaction made sense especially when it's based on him being available to talk to the person he's relying on to hold the "camp" together. And the way he talks sounds dickish but is also extremely blunt (again, outside of that golf conversation). That conversation could easily have been held while the officer was doing something instead of hitting golf balls.
@Morden
You do realize the mom at the time was adjusting to a rather insane day right? She saw her sons friend get run over multiple times and get back up over and over after he'd tried to kill her son. She also had to put down her zombie boss when she doesn't realize what zombies or the situation is.
She doesn't understand it, she's determined it's some kind of disease, she doesn't want her daughter to get it (however it's transmitted), and like it or not isn't to far off of how people would likely react in a neighborhood like that in LA. Some would go to help but it's just as likely they would hunker down and let the cops/people involved sort it out.
The golf thing was probably done to show that the military either isn't taking the situation seriously enough/being ineffective, or it was the same sort of thing as the monopoly game, an effort to show that people crave normalcy. Or maybe the dude knows things are about to fall apart and hes enjoying one last tour of the links before it all collapses.
I could see it as an extension of the normalcy of the monopoly game. Also maybe a way of showing everything is under control to his troops. It just felt like it needed something added so it didn't feel contrived. The monopoly thing is a solid way of showing how a fair number of civilians would react to the situation. You don't expect the military to be putting their heads in the sand and saying "Everything is normal". Especially when if it's safe enough to play golf outside the fence why can't we go home would come up.
Also, for those mad at Madison for not saving her neighbor or that these people aren't heroes remember that these are normal people. TWD started with the main two leaders being former law enforcement. People with that drive to help and protect others. People with a tendency to run towards the danger to save others. FTWD's characters don't start there. I think that is part of show that is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. So far there are no "authority" figures in the group.
Nah, he was outside and hitting down the street. Travis was talking to him thru the fence. Oh well, it's one scene I didn't care for because a single line could have slotted it in so well. Meh
Would be interesting tidbit that the guard -tipped off by Travis- sent units to rescue the people in the building, but it turned out they were too late and walked into a nest of zombies-hence the firefight.
AegisGrimm wrote: Seriously, the mom and daughter watched their neighbor literally get chased down and attacked, and then not only did they turn away without question, they went and played Monopoly! Are you fething serious?
I saw that scene as representing the characters' denial of the events taking place around them. The mother didn't want to expose her children to what was outside, and so she opted for "family game night" instead. Trying to spin a horrible moment into one of normality. I don't see that state of denial being much different than a family averting their eyes from a homeless person on the street as they casually walk into a restaurant for dinner. Sure, the family knows the homeless person is likely hungry, but they ignore that knowledge in the hope of having a pleasant evening out.
Perhaps that is a larger theme the show is trying to present--the callousness of society, especially urban society, is partially responsible for humanity's fall.
Mr Morden wrote: If that's the bit from episode 2 - it was worse than that - the daughter actually wanted to help and was prepared to do so but her mother stopped her. So they ignored the screams until the stopped - it was a mother with children being attacked.
Stuff like that happens and yeah not everyone in the show can be heroic or likeable - but the mother and the drug addict loser son are the total opposite. Isn't she supposed to be a counsellor or something and actually have some empathy for others?
Sure, but the daughter hadn't encountered a walker yet, but the mother had with her husband and son in the river wash. The mother knows that the sick people (walkers to us, but not to them yet) are dangerous. With that knowledge couldn't the board game scene be interpreted as the mother protecting her own daughter and son from the dangers outside? The mother's empathy was there for the neighbor, she talked to the neighbor off screen, presumably to warn her about the sickness. But, without a weapon, and with only her daughter and junkie son in the house, why would the mother intervene for a neighbor and put her own family at risk?
easysauce wrote: Zombies have always supposed to be holding up a mirror to our society, ever since the romero days.
Its a critique on out the general state of apathy, disconnectedness, denial, ect that post modern society seems to be swimming in.
Exactly right, and I think the board game scene is central to those themes.
Mr. Morden: Using the homeless example again, I work near downtown LA and drive by a small tent city every day going in to and out of my work place. I know those people are suffering, and I know I could help, but I also worry about my own safety if I were to approach that group and offer assistance. And if something happened to me I worry about what would become of my family members depending on me, and I keep driving. Detachment, denial, and fear keep me in my car, and keep me from intervening. Same as the mother staying in her house in my opinion.
Actually Darktraveler777, to further enhance our point she's actually put down her boss at the point when the attack outside happens. So she's already had 2 run-ins with the infected.
Hulksmash wrote: Actually Darktraveler777, to further enhance our point she's actually put down her boss at the point when the attack outside happens. So she's already had 2 run-ins with the infected.
Damn! Good one, I forgot about that encounter. That was brutal, and definitely ups the fear factor on the mother's part regarding interacting with the infected.
I wouldn't want my wife or child running out there GIVEN THE SITUATION (pandemic underway, crazed and/or diseased attacker, nighttime, etc). Some of you guys would? If we're talking about an adult male in position to help, the equation changes a little.
Even then, you have to think very hard about what happens to your family if something happens to you. Who needs you more, your neighbor or your family?
The way I see the series at this point (and this is just how I view and process it) is that everyone already KNOWS at some level, even Travis. The Monopoly, etc. is one part reflection of the denial they're projecting, and another part seeking a moment of 'normalcy' before it all goes under and those kinds of moments are gone forever.
The officer knows the score better than anyone, and so he's using a neighborhood as a driving range because what the @#$& even matters anymore, I've seen dead people walking around and we're @#$%ing going around killing our own people in order to protect a small number of survivors who may end up all dying from this anyway.
Hulksmash wrote: She doesn't understand it, she's determined it's some kind of disease, she doesn't want her daughter to get it (however it's transmitted), and like it or not isn't to far off of how people would likely react in a neighborhood like that in LA. Some would go to help but it's just as likely they would hunker down and let the cops/people involved sort it out.
Here's the thing. In the Dawn of the Dead remake there were no prior "zombie" culture issues for them to rely on just like in this show. Still, the news networks very quickly began television broadcasts stating "the unburied dead are attacking the living". Even if the cause was unknown, it should be obvious pretty damned quick that these are "dead people" who are attacking everyone. It's the continued denial of this "fact" that escapes me.
You might have missed the part where since the riots the power and cell towers have been down. Add that into the isolation of the safety zone and it's understandable that at least the people in this location have no idea what's actually going on (or at least no confirmation for their concerns/knowledge).
Basically, since this was more of a slow ramp up the government have had more control over the information getting out that the sudden shift that was going to bed and everything was fine and waking up to zombies eating your neighborhood like in Dawn of the Dead.
Frazzled wrote: Would be interesting tidbit that the guard -tipped off by Travis- sent units to rescue the people in the building, but it turned out they were too late and walked into a nest of zombies-hence the firefight.
While I think the Guard was in fact tipped off, I think they were out waiting/looking for them - and once they flashed their flashlight again, well...
The mother's empathy was there for the neighbor, she talked to the neighbor off screen, presumably to warn her about the sickness
When did that happen or was referred to? I just saw family preparing for a children's party - mum and step dad get back from killing the drug dealer zombie - look at them, shake their heads and move on. They look at the guy loading stuff into his boot and go - "he's got the right idea" and then walk in the House.
Friend and I watched the two episodes and just shrugged - he didn't like a single person and I was meh about a couple (daughter and step dad were ok) but no-one grabbed us in terms of caring about these people, if they lived or died and if that doesn't happen - I am just not that interested.
Still find it weird that given all the media stuff about guns in the US, no civilian in the show has one?
The mother and step dad were quite happy to wander around a known (to them) drug den where "bad things had happened" with no weapon, no backup plan, nothing - just to see if they could figure out what happened to her worthless son. She was also dismissive of anyone else there and what might have happened to them- "bad things happen" which I guess is why they didn't mention to the cops - even though their son might have been attacked and a serial killer or just drug addled killer on the loose. I get they might have thought her son was responsible, but he might not have been. What would they have done if they found someone badly hurt - likely walked away?
Still find it weird that given all the media stuff about guns in the US, no civilian in the show has one?
This is granola crunching West LA. In Compton they got the handled!.
They need a further spinoff: FTWF: Fear The Walking Frazzled...
As Frazzled said, there's strong anti-gun sentiment(for the most part) in California where FtWD takes place, unlike TWD which is set in the SouthEast USA which is generally known as big on pro-gun sentiment.
Honestly I'd find it hilarious if they did a "No atheists in foxholes" moment where they talk about how they hate guns, but use them anyway to protect themselves.
Spoiler:
And yes, I know there are atheists in foxholes, I was just using it as a metaphor.
The mother's empathy was there for the neighbor, she talked to the neighbor off screen, presumably to warn her about the sickness
When did that happen or was referred to? I just saw family preparing for a children's party - mum and step dad get back from killing the drug dealer zombie - look at them, shake their heads and move on. They look at the guy loading stuff into his boot and go - "he's got the right idea" and then walk in the House.
There is a brief discussion between Travis and Madison where Madison mentions she will talk to the birthday party neighbor, and you see her go towards the neighbor's house before the scene changes. As I said, the presumable warning occurred off screen, but Madison's character does show concern for her neighbor.
Mr Morden wrote: Still find it weird that given all the media stuff about guns in the US, no civilian in the show has one?
Maybe things aren't exactly how the media portrays them to be?
Mr Morden wrote: No it was serious question - I really don't know what it is actually like in the US and have to rely on secondary sources. Hence the question.
Sinful Hero has helped my understanding a bit.
- without derailing the thread - I just find it odd - same with a lot of films etc.
Eg: I absolutely hated very moment of "Scream" - would have loved for any of the girls to have pulled a gun and blown the killers away.
Also I believe California has pretty strict gun control laws, so most folks that live there won't bother getting one.
The show is set in a very different environment to the Southeastern USA, and I hope they get into that a bit.
Mr Morden wrote: No it was serious question - I really don't know what it is actually like in the US and have to rely on secondary sources. Hence the question.
Sinful Hero has helped my understanding a bit.
- without derailing the thread - I just find it odd - same with a lot of films etc.
Eg: I absolutely hated very moment of "Scream" - would have loved for any of the girls to have pulled a gun and blown the killers away.
When I lived in central PA, all but a few households I visited or know of had several firearms, mostly for hunting but plenty of home security pistols as well, very gun-heavy area. Hunting is a way of life there, kids have days off school for the opening days of certain seasons starting (buck, doe, duck etc).
Living on the coast of MA, very few households here are armed. I've never seen anyone carrying other than police, we do hear the firing range all Sunday though, from across the harbor. So there are guns, but in much less conspicuous places and far fewer. When I've pondered getting a home security firearm to local neighbors, I've certainly been met with a few raised eyebrows, back in PA, people were constantly perplexed by my not owning a gun.
This is a continent-sized nation with very different communities all over it. It's not just the 'blue coast vs red center' thing either, I could travel a few miles up the road and be into Maine or New Hampshire, and again, big hunting cultures there.
California has some strict firearms laws. However, you only need to drive about an hour or two outside of places like LA or San Francisco and you can find yourself in gun country.
But not every American has a gun, or prays to a gun shrine.
California has some strict firearms laws. However, you only need to drive about an hour or two outside of places like LA or San Francisco and you can find yourself in gun country.
But not every American has a gun, or prays to a gun shrine.
Indeed, the vast majority of California could be considered country. Its just that the population is absolutely dwarfed by those two huge populations.
Mr Nobody wrote: That one guy in the last episode had a gun. didn't help against the military.
Hmmm... I think we need to consult with an Engineer on this.
Engineer wrote:How am I going to stop some big, mean mother-hubbard from tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer is a gun. And if that don't work, use more gun.
Mr Nobody wrote: That one guy in the last episode had a gun. didn't help against the military.
Hmmm... I think we need to consult with an Engineer on this.
Engineer wrote:How am I going to stop some big, mean mother-hubbard from tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind? The answer is a gun. And if that don't work, use more gun.
I was going to give you a laughing Ork for the gun shrine/walker joke, but now that you brought The Engineer into this, you get an exalt.
So based on the show it seems like military way over extended trying to cover everywhere it was needed and didn't deploy enough troops to the LA Basin. They talk about the platoon (only a platoon) having the company record at like 80+ zombies. Which means the zombies they are killing is a drop in the bucket.
Looks like they are being penny packet deployed and getting chewed up....sorry, couldn't help it...and are now retreating. I really like the new character they introduced this week with Nick in the containment area.
Overall good, also gave a bit more perspective from the military and grunt side. Next week should be fun and then we're back to Rick and the gang!
So did the NG officer get eaten or fragged by his own guys?
The revelations about Daniel were pretty interesting. Really put a whole new spin on that family. Wow. He's kind of a monster, and Griselda maybe too.
Alicia and Chris...creepy or not? I guess they aren't technically related, but... Then again, I guess dating options are about to become very limited, if they aren't already. The two of them trashing the "rich people's" house was interesting. By making them behave very similarly to the looters we saw earlier in the season, are the writers saying that we're all just animals prone to destructive behavior and lashing out against those who have more than us? Or are they just again illustrating the "leveling" of society going on, which I guess might have been echoed in Strand's comments about bringing back "the old rules."
I thought Travis's switch was going to flip there behind the 50 cal, but not yet. I still think they're teasing and toying with us about that.
Oh...and I guess we're left to assume that Daniel is about let the gates of Hell open?
This episode was the best one so far I think, pace has gotten to the point where its entertaining, and things are actually happening.
The character in the holding cell with nick is awesome! I feel like he is going to play out quite nicely.
David doesnt strike me as a monster, so much as someone who's switch flipped earlier then everyone else, and he is honest about it.
The scene where he tells the blonde mother "do you want me to do whats needed, or do you want me to do it and just not know?" (paraphrasing)
the subsequent acceptance by her, and the half hearted acceptance by the father seem to indicate they are finally getting into apocalypse mode, though the father has farther to go for sure.
Im not really buying the military breakdown, especially considering that thus far it seems the zombie hordes are largely confined to indoor spaces, which would actually mean the military response would be more effective, since you can pick your battles more carefully and concentrate forces in specific areas to go room by room and building by building. The only areas it gets problematic are larger structures like office buildings and hospitals, but considering the average zombies inability to operate a door, even a heavily infested building would only mean you have to face small handfuls of zombies at any given time.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im not really buying the military breakdown, especially considering that thus far it seems the zombie hordes are largely confined to indoor spaces, which would actually mean the military response would be more effective, since you can pick your battles more carefully and concentrate forces in specific areas to go room by room and building by building. The only areas it gets problematic are larger structures like office buildings and hospitals, but considering the average zombies inability to operate a door, even a heavily infested building would only mean you have to face small handfuls of zombies at any given time.
Correct, assuming everyone closed all the doors in a building or that the weight of bodies didn't break or open doors. Interior doors that aren't for bathrooms wouldn't really stand up to a press. And going into a confined space with the wrong weapons with the power out seems like a recipe for the breakdown to me. It's not like they've had a ton of training on zombie clearance.
@easysauce
I pretty much entirely agree.
@Breotan
I think we're about 16 days from the first episode at this point. Could be 23. Not sure how many weeks they have been confined to the camp but I thought they said 2 weeks or so when it time jumped.
These characters are horrible, not the acting mind you, the characters themselves. Druggie whackjob, libtard dad who thinks everything is hunky-dory and why cant everyone get along, schoolmom wife who is finally starting to get her head on straight, angst-ridden teens who are so full of themselves and how this impacts their lives they are completely oblivious to what needs to be done. The only saving grace is the old Hispanic man who is a bit off his rocker. No one has any guns? No one has seen any of the zombie movies dating from the 1960s forward. The military would not be out and about like this, they would have either all gone awol to be with their families or they would be at their bases protecting their families. What this show needs is a Snake Pliskin and an Escape From LA. How hard is it to fortify built up areas and clear them? Aim for the head? The new fun part now that the lame military folks left to go where-ever is food. How are they going to get food. Are they smart enough to try growing it themselves? Going to where its grown? Water will be important as well but I am guessing the hippy dippy people so far represented have cases of Evian and Fiji water in their basements.
On the good side, I think it is a funny satire on the current state of culture in wacked out places like this and it will be interesting to see how things evolve. I wouldn't give them 2 weeks in the ZA now that the military is gone. If this were to be filmed in any of the Southern or Redoubt states I think the whole show would be over and you would have fortified towns already set up with an armed and wary populace with farms already started and the people having gone into survival mode. Be funny to see the crazy religious cults that appear in some of the backwoods areas though.
Col. Dash wrote: No one has seen any of the zombie movies dating from the 1960s forward. The military would not be out and about like this, they would have either all gone awol to be with their families or they would be at their bases protecting their families.
.
Zombie movies are generally considered out of universe.
I think the point is that these are the military that is left after the awol and base army is taken out of the equation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, TWD is basically the south's solution to the zombie problem. They already did that show.
Col. Dash wrote: Yeah I know. But they skipped my favorite part, the first 30 days. I do disaster management and communications, this kind of stuff intrigues me.
Interesting. I doubt any Zombie scenario short of a 28 days later type will even remotely work. A zombie plague is just not that dangerous except to locals. Your basic Sean of the Dead scenario seems most appropriate. Zombies get going, local population gets hit, military/PoPo get act together and deal with it.
Frankly I'd take a zombie over someone spreading a superflu just by breathing. Heck, the zombie games make me excited, not scared.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im not really buying the military breakdown, especially considering that thus far it seems the zombie hordes are largely confined to indoor spaces, which would actually mean the military response would be more effective, since you can pick your battles more carefully and concentrate forces in specific areas to go room by room and building by building. The only areas it gets problematic are larger structures like office buildings and hospitals, but considering the average zombies inability to operate a door, even a heavily infested building would only mean you have to face small handfuls of zombies at any given time.
the thing you have to remember,
the soldiers are *tired* I think it was mentioned that they had stayed up 50 hours straight, a significant amount of that time is spent doing physical activity that would drain them.
Zombies do not get tired, only die to head shots, and can easily get into rooms and through doors. The # of Z's only goes up too as for every pocket of people the military can protect there are huge swathes of areas they are not even in. there are only ~ 2 million active military + national guard members of which not even close to all are front line combatants (many are support + logistics)
the shows military presence has killed ~80 zombies.
America's population is over 318 million, 6,775 people die in non zombie apocalypse conditions every day, but now, each person who dies, will go on to kill multiple people most likely, who then will also go on to kill more people in an *exponential feedback loop* where there is no limiting faction on how many zombies that can be infected, especially given that it took a while for anyone to start capping Z skulls.
we are about a month into this thing, I am going to be very conservative, and do the math with each Z only infecting 3 more Z's (reality, probably much much higher).
day one, 6,775 people die, and infect 20325 people, we now have 27100 zombies. day two we now have 108400 Z's, day three 433600, day four 1,734,400, day five 6 937 600, day six 27 750 400,
end of one week, 111 001 600 zombies.
Given the strange nature of the epidemic, peoples natural reaction is to *NOT* kill them in real life, I dont care what zombie comics have done to you, you are a human being and it will take a lot of face eating before you flip the switch and become a zombie killer. New Z's are often indistinguishable from the living, and in a crowd soldiers will be hesitant to shoot civvies. My math also does not account for the very probably reality that one zombie will infect a whole stadium/school/croded area at a time. This is a universe with no zombie comics, so the flip will take longer, especially since quite a few people will think its a hoax for at least a few days and communication has broken down to the point where you dont really know what is going on.
So even assuming each military member was on shore, without losing a single soldier to death/desertion/ect, ready to go, all in the right locations at the right time, showed up for their call to arms ect ect each one would have to personally get ~55 head shots on zombies in *one day* to kill all the Z's before they infect more people.
and again, that is assuming that every single active military person is at a rifle shooting Z's as opposed to logistics, medical, ect.
Col. Dash wrote: Yeah I know. But they skipped my favorite part, the first 30 days. I do disaster management and communications, this kind of stuff intrigues me.
Interesting. I doubt any Zombie scenario short of a 28 days later type will even remotely work. A zombie plague is just not that dangerous except to locals. Your basic Sean of the Dead scenario seems most appropriate. Zombies get going, local population gets hit, military/PoPo get act together and deal with it.
Frankly I'd take a zombie over someone spreading a superflu just by breathing. Heck, the zombie games make me excited, not scared.
For sure, airborne illness would be way worse, but having Z's start popping up would overwhelm the system till society adapted, shaun of the dead is one possible reaction if the military responded the the zombies in the correct fashion, in time, in an orderly fashion, but that is a best case scenario. I think a lot more people would be freaking out and become helpless then in SOTD, because lets face it, we all think we would be bad ass zombie killers, but more then likely, we would just be zombies
and remember, the illness probably *is* airborne, everyone already has it after all!
I just don't see a shambler as being dangerous. A mom with a stroller moves faster. Your only real risk is the first hours until a warning goes out or you run into one and get away. Alternatively, just you know, close your doors.
Frazzled wrote: I just don't see a shambler as being dangerous. A mom with a stroller moves faster. Your only real risk is the first hours until a warning goes out or you run into one and get away. Alternatively, just you know, close your doors.
right, until you get tired, or boxed in, or have to sleep, or eat, or take a squat or somthing.
the idea that you can just wait a few hours for a warning is a bit pastoral, reminds me of "dont worry about nukes, just duck and cover if the sirens go off!" one Z can easily get through a door/window, several more so.
no warning would come within hours, would likely take a few days before anyone even *notices* people are turning into zombies and not just rioting on bath salts or something. For every situation where its just you and a few Z's in an area where you can run, there is a situation where a crowd of people simply cannot run away, trample others (making more Z's) and create a sea of zombies that will walk over your house, let alone through your doors.
once the warning did come, sure everyone stays inside, but that doesnt actually deal with the problem outside, it just leaves less people to deal with it.
once you hit a critical mass of zombies its a lot harder to deal with, and people just wont start shooting people they think are sick right away.
The only real way to avoid the zombie apocalypse is through education!
in out real world, we all know *exactly* what to do once people start turning, no need for the military!
everyone just pick up a cricket bat, bop off a few Z"s and be home for pints by the evening!
chaos0xomega wrote: Im not really buying the military breakdown, especially considering that thus far it seems the zombie hordes are largely confined to indoor spaces, which would actually mean the military response would be more effective, since you can pick your battles more carefully and concentrate forces in specific areas to go room by room and building by building. The only areas it gets problematic are larger structures like office buildings and hospitals, but considering the average zombies inability to operate a door, even a heavily infested building would only mean you have to face small handfuls of zombies at any given time.
the thing you have to remember,
the soldiers are *tired* I think it was mentioned that they had stayed up 50 hours straight, a significant amount of that time is spent doing physical activity that would drain them.
Zombies do not get tired, only die to head shots, and can easily get into rooms and through doors. The # of Z's only goes up too as for every pocket of people the military can protect there are huge swathes of areas they are not even in. there are only ~ 2 million active military + national guard members of which not even close to all are front line combatants (many are support + logistics)
the shows military presence has killed ~80 zombies.
America's population is over 318 million, 6,775 people die in non zombie apocalypse conditions every day, but now, each person who dies, will go on to kill multiple people most likely, who then will also go on to kill more people in an *exponential feedback loop* where there is no limiting faction on how many zombies that can be infected, especially given that it took a while for anyone to start capping Z skulls.
we are about a month into this thing, I am going to be very conservative, and do the math with each Z only infecting 3 more Z's (reality, probably much much higher).
day one, 6,775 people die, and infect 20325 people, we now have 27100 zombies. day two we now have 108400 Z's, day three 433600, day four 1,734,400, day five 6 937 600, day six 27 750 400,
end of one week, 111 001 600 zombies.
Given the strange nature of the epidemic, peoples natural reaction is to *NOT* kill them in real life, I dont care what zombie comics have done to you, you are a human being and it will take a lot of face eating before you flip the switch and become a zombie killer. New Z's are often indistinguishable from the living, and in a crowd soldiers will be hesitant to shoot civvies. My math also does not account for the very probably reality that one zombie will infect a whole stadium/school/croded area at a time. This is a universe with no zombie comics, so the flip will take longer, especially since quite a few people will think its a hoax for at least a few days and communication has broken down to the point where you dont really know what is going on.
So even assuming each military member was on shore, without losing a single soldier to death/desertion/ect, ready to go, all in the right locations at the right time, showed up for their call to arms ect ect each one would have to personally get ~55 head shots on zombies in *one day* to kill all the Z's before they infect more people.
and again, that is assuming that every single active military person is at a rifle shooting Z's as opposed to logistics, medical, ect.
again, mostly confined to buildings. There may be 112 million zombies after a week, but if 99% of them are indoors (a safe assumption considering that we're dealing with LA here in the show, which is Americas second largest city/metro area, and we've yet to really see anything at all walking the streets that wasnt a gun toting soldier), you're (for the most part) probably only going to end up dealing with pockets of 1-10 zombies at a time. In this situation theres also no need to rush either since the chance of further spread is minimal, meaning conducting a 50 hour op should never ever become a thing.
Given that zombies have been portrayed (for the most part) within TWD as the slow shuffling type, and are generally speaking rather mindless, a platoon of soldiers (particularly a platoon of soldiers that seem to understand the concept of 'aim for the head, don't get bit') would have a relatively easy time of sweeping through residential suburban neighborhoods. Urban areas get a bit more dicey as you then have to contend with things like subway lines which allow openings for walkers to bypass your cordon, and department stores which are large open spaces with lots of hiding places. The subway lines could be a challenge, but given you're discussing a military force evidently willing to firebomb civilians, you would think they would take a rather straightforward solution and just burn trouble areas down to clear them of infestation. Apartment buildings are compartmentalized, so generally speaking going unit by unit through the building won't be difficult as the common area zombie population should be minimal, a squad of well trained troops who know what they're doing won't have much to worry about, a platoon should be able to clear the average residential building in 1-2 hours with proper coordination. Office buildings are a bit dicey, the compartmentalization isn't quite as good as with residential buildings, and the spaces tend to be more open along the lines of a warehouse or department store and would probably require several hours and an entire company to properly secure. Hospitals... well, might as well burn those fethers down too.
Another issue I'm having is that platoon has only managed a kill count of about 80 or so walkers, which is an apparent record. Either there aren't as many zombies out there as we think, or they haven't been looking particularly hard for them (or they are far more difficult for the military to put down, despite the fact that we saw them make short work of the few walkers we've seen them engage).
right, until you get tired, or boxed in, or have to sleep, or eat, or take a squat or somthing.
See the cool thing is the military set up these fences, so they have these safe zones they can go to. Military can get in, walkers have to stay out. Only a problem if someone inside the safezone dies and reanimates. We know from TWD that fences are actually pretty good at keeping people and walkers separated (up until someone does something like drive a tank through it, or you let the zombie horde build up to too large a size and the fence breaks down anyway).
I think I remember Cracked actually did a whole thing on why the standard slow zombie apocalypse would not work. Fast zombies have a much better chance. But yeah I am way more scared of a disease than zombies, but they make for fun rehearsal drills for serious stuff that people are motivated to take part in.
Even worse though, EMP. Knock out the grid. Nasa a few year back did a study, if the East coast was hit with a powerful enough EMP, a third of the population would be dead and dying inside of two weeks depending on the season and that's with aid coming in from outside of the affected zone. We just do not have the resources to help that many people over that big an area all at once. Starvation isn't even a major factor in that, disease, the elements and water are the major kickers. Elements alone are bad, if it was summer you have all the heat deaths in the south. If its winter all the deaths from the cold up north. Can you imagine if Atlanta went through the "Snow-pocalypse"(that was the official term for it btw) with no power and next to no operating vehicles? The zombies would be corpse-cycles and not even a factor.
again, mostly confined to buildings. There may be 112 million zombies after a week, but if 99% of them are indoors (a safe assumption considering that we're dealing with LA here in the show, which is Americas second largest city/metro area, and we've yet to really see anything at all walking the streets that wasnt a gun toting soldier), you're (for the most part) probably only going to end up dealing with pockets of 1-10 zombies at a time. In this situation theres also no need to rush either since the chance of further spread is minimal, meaning conducting a 50 hour op should never ever become a thing.
that is not a safe assumption at all... nothing stops Z's from breaking down doors or going outside. the show is also specifically depicting a less inhabited suburb, and while you dont see massive crowds of Z"s around, you also dont see other people around (presumably because they are out eating people)
You are also not accounting for the fact that they pop up everywhere, spread out, in a non centralized manner that exponentially increases.
if it was just a few buildings full of Z"s they could just nuke it or bomb it, but its not.
its one person turning, around 1000's of living people who have no idea what to do, who's first reaction is to help that person, who will likely get turned into Z"s and continue the cycle.
The subway lines could be a challenge, but given you're discussing a military force evidently willing to firebomb civilians, you would think they would take a rather straightforward solution and just burn trouble areas down to clear them of infestation
exactly. if they have risk assessed beyond worrying about trapped cities, most of these situations would just be dealt with via the burning the structure down or putting ordance on it. I wonder if a pressure wave takes out zombies?
Assuming zombies have overrun LA somehow, they should just be firebombing the place. if units aren't available, start burning buildings whenever the wind is in the right direction.
right, until you get tired, or boxed in, or have to sleep, or eat, or take a squat or somthing.
See the cool thing is the military set up these fences, so they have these safe zones they can go to. Military can get in, walkers have to stay out. Only a problem if someone inside the safezone dies and reanimates. We know from TWD that fences are actually pretty good at keeping people and walkers separated (up until someone does something like drive a tank through it, or you let the zombie horde build up to too large a size and the fence breaks down anyway).
right, and this is why not everyone dies... its why a few people who are fortunate enough to have strong walls and a military defending themselves managed to survive a few weeks.
everyone who doesnt have strong walls or an army to protect them (most people) is in for a serious face eating.
Over time, the Zombies advantages of not having to eat, sleep, rest, ect make them at least equal in capability to the humans ability to run fast and use tools.
let alone that the humans themselves will turn on each other and cause all kinds of issues. the military and police were spending more resources on *rioter* then the zombies at the beginning.
Remember in TWD people are the real threat. just takes one crazy guy to throw a kink into the most well run operation.
The subway lines could be a challenge, but given you're discussing a military force evidently willing to firebomb civilians, you would think they would take a rather straightforward solution and just burn trouble areas down to clear them of infestation
exactly. if they have risk assessed beyond worrying about trapped cities, most of these situations would just be dealt with via the burning the structure down or putting ordance on it. I wonder if a pressure wave takes out zombies?
Assuming zombies have overrun LA somehow, they should just be firebombing the place. if units aren't available, start burning buildings whenever the wind is in the right direction.
Remember, z's have not taken over LA, LA is just one city out of *every city on the planet* where every single human being on earth is already infected with something that turns em into a Z when they die.
If it was just a localized thing, it would die out pretty quick, but it isn't.
It is spread out everywhere, to everyone, before the Z's even start showing up.
easysauce wrote: that is not a safe assumption at all... nothing stops Z's from breaking down doors or going outside. the show is also specifically depicting a less inhabited suburb, and while you dont see massive crowds of Z"s around, you also dont see other people around (presumably because they are out eating people)
Actually it is a safe assumption. Z's are no stronger than a normal human (except for, apparently, their jaw muscles - if anything, owing to their status as 'dead' they should be weaker). They are also far less coordinated than a normal human. Normal humans have difficulty enough breaking down doors and windows without making a concerted effort of it. We also know that TWD zombies only really seem to respond to sound apparently, cool thing about that is that the human ear is notoriously bad at determining the direction from which sound comes from, thats even more true when you're in a high acoustical clutter environment like an urban area where the sound reverberates off every building even remotely nearby, or in, say, an apartment building, where something like a gunshot is simply indistinguishably loud. Even if they could determine a direction from which the sound came from, the lack of reasoning ability would mean they would try to do something like walk towards the wall in the direction the sound came from, rather than say... congregate at a doorway.
You are also not accounting for the fact that they pop up everywhere, spread out, in a non centralized manner that exponentially increases.
Aside from things like a subway line, its relatively easy to limit access to areas for something that travels at half the speed that the average human walks and has no capability for though process which would lead them to do something like, say "stay out of sight" or "try to go around" or "not loudly announce your presence to everyone within earshot via gurgling moaning sound". In a situation like this, the military response would be similar to what they have been doing for the past decade in Iraq and Afghanistan while conducting sweeps of villages, etc just on a much larger scale. After establishing the cordoned off safe zone, they would isolate an area with further fences/personnel, clear each block/street, house by house, room by room by room , then integrate it into the safe zone, and keep spreading out. The only wildcard in this is the fact that anyone who dies suddenly becomes a zombie. You can mitigate this to an extent by isolating the ill and injured, etc. but you cant fully stop people from doing any of the myriad of stupid things that can get them killed. Still though, given the physical limits of the common zombie, a simple education as to whats going on could go a long way to limit and prevent re-infection. Beyond that, this is one of those situations that would basically require universal conscription, so the average citizen is now armed and has, theoretically, at least a basic idea of how to use a gun.
if it was just a few buildings full of Z"s they could just nuke it or bomb it, but its not.
No, its actually just a lot of buildings full of Z's. Realistically in this scenario the world as everyone knows it is over. Concentrated military force could be used to seal and clear an urban area like manhattan, and then sweep up through long island, and you could probably move the entire (or at least what you have the available fuel and resources for) surviving population (i.e. whoever survives in the military safezones established nationwide) of the US into that area where they could carry out a relatively normal standard of living in relative safety. From there you either burn the rest down or (more likely) just ignore it.
As an aside, I suspect that those that live in the flyover states are relatively less affected by the situation and a larger (but harder to secure) safezone could be established in these areas for additional farmland & space.
Assuming zombies have overrun LA somehow, they should just be firebombing the place. if units aren't available, start burning buildings whenever the wind is in the right direction.
This.
right, and this is why not everyone dies... its why a few people who are fortunate enough to have strong walls and a military defending themselves managed to survive a few weeks.
The point is the presence of the walls and military forces, in combination with the nature of zombies themselves, makes it unlikely that these remnants of civilization would in fact fall apart.
Over time, the Zombies advantages of not having to eat, sleep, rest, ect make them at least equal in capability to the humans ability to run fast and use tools.
Dont have to run if you have a fortified compound, do you? Supplies could be an issue, but we have emergency stockpiles of those dotting the country for just this sort of reason. Hell, you wouldnt even need to drive outside the walls thanks to things like helicopters.
let alone that the humans themselves will turn on each other and cause all kinds of issues. the military and police were spending more resources on *rioter* then the zombies at the beginning.
Id like to think that for the most part people would be able to work together for the survival of the species once the nature of zombiism becomes known to them. Its interesting when you compare zombie fiction to alien fiction. Alien invaders always seems to unite people, whereas zombie fiction always seems to divide people. While the personification of the threat may differ, the nature of it is essentially the same.
I'm telling you guys if you like a reasonable (well, most reasonable version I've ever encountered) of a zombie apoc event read John Ringo's Under a Graveyard Sky series. It's one of the few that actually take place in a world that has a zombie culture. Fun reading. Even if the "zombies" are as fast as normal humans.
As for the show I'm sticking with the exhausted and penny packet deployments and limited available resources committed the wrong way that allows the situation to get to where it is. As for firebombing I can almost guarantee it was being held back until the very last as a president who is out of touch with what's really happening (which they would be on a personal level) isn't going to want to firebomb American cities. The actual COBALT might be a purely military response of we can't handle it anymore and might have actually taken the government out of the equation.
We'll never really know but I do like the extra bits they threw in with the soldiers to at least make the situation everyone is in more reasonable. Tired people make mistakes. Angry people make mistakes. Scare people make mistakes. And the soldiers are shown as all of them.
@Chaos0xomega
You make it sound reasonable. But that assumes the resources for dealing with a nationwide outbreak. It also assumes all troops actually reporting in. It also assumes non of the losses are in critical areas like pilots, key command and support personel. It also assumes an instant willingness to make hard decisions from our government. It assumes an instant response from our soldiers to shoot people in the head who still look alive. It makes a lot of assumptions.
Not saying a slow zombie outbreak could succeed. I have my doubts. But it's not completely unreasonable. I think it's more unreasonable that the entire world would collapse where people have a bit more control over their populace or are more willing to make cold blooded and swift decisions. Honestly Russia and North Korea would probably be fine as long as their leaders didn't succumb.
Dont have to run if you have a fortified compound, do you? Supplies could be an issue, but we have emergency stockpiles of those dotting the country for just this sort of reason. Hell, you wouldnt even need to drive outside the walls thanks to things like helicopters.
That alone shows how naive you are if you think that a walled off section of suburbia has the logistics to maintain a helicopter... sorry mate but thats just not how it works. For every hour of flight time you need multiple hours on the ground for repairs and such, logistics take up the bulk of resources and time, and without a constant, steady supply, these things break down quite quickly. Sending out guys 4-10 at a time per chopper to get supplies also isnt as foolproof as you think... especially in a world where if you dont have ready open road access from the farm, to the processing plant, to the __________, to the super market and enough semi trucks to ship it all then almost no one gets to eat. There are not random stores of supplies dotted through out every county in the amounts needed to keep even a fraction alive for any amount of time. I wish there was, but there simply is not.
The scenario you mention, which is basically day of the living dead, where the cast is in an underground bunker, has a helicopter, supplies, trained staff, protection ect ect. Their supplies while greater then 99.9% of the population are *finate*, their number are *finate* while Z's have *infinate* time and #'s to get to them. This super fortification, made with more resources then 99% of everything else, is running out of what it needs to keep the chopper/people going pretty quickly.
Again, that is a small infinitesimal % of the population who will find themselves in the most secure, well stocked, bunker available. Everyone else is dead.
Having walls and 20+ years of supplies means nothing when 20 years later the same Z's are clawing outside.
Also, you mention that in TWD they only react to sound, which is not the case, they smell the living, or did you skip the "we're gonna need more guts!" episode?
How can all the zombies be inside, yet everyone is safe if they also "just stay inside their suburban homes and live off the years of stockpiles/helicopters everyone must have"?
You vastly over estimate the resources the military has, and vastly under estimate how much logistics it takes to keep them running, and how fragile that logistical chain is.
The only reason zombies wouldnt work, is because they are made up magic that doesnt exist.
easysauce wrote: That alone shows how naive you are if you think that a walled off section of suburbia has the logistics to maintain a helicopter... sorry mate but thats just not how it works. For every hour of flight time you need multiple hours on the ground for repairs and such, logistics take up the bulk of resources and time, and without a constant, steady supply, these things break down quite quickly.
If we can set up the logistics infrastructure to maintain helos, including supply runs to remote outposts, in a remote, mountainous, 3rd world country full of angry people with guns, rpgs, a major chip on their shoulder, and a desire to kill us, then we can set up that same logistical network in the US, yes, including suburbia. In fact, it would probably be easier considering that we have actual bases here to support most of that sort of work.
Sending out guys 4-10 at a time per chopper to get supplies also isnt as foolproof as you think... especially in a world where if you dont have ready open road access from the farm, to the processing plant, to the __________, to the super market and enough semi trucks to ship it all then almost no one gets to eat. There are not random stores of supplies dotted through out every county in the amounts needed to keep even a fraction alive for any amount of time. I wish there was, but there simply is not.
I should have clarified, that I was referring to a world in which the still living population of the US can be measured in the 6-7 figure range (at most), scattered across the country within a series of fortified safezones and military installations. Probably would run out of stored fuel in a 3-6 month time frame assuming careful use, food in 1-2. That is, unless, the surviving military forces were intelligent about where and what they focused their attention on "liberating".
Also, you mention that in TWD they only react to sound, which is not the case, they smell the living, or did you skip the "we're gonna need more guts!" episode?
No I remember that one too, though I chose to ignore it since it seemed more like they used smell to determine what *wasnt* prey, rather than use it to determine/find what was. I could be wrong in that analysis, but from what I recall, throughout the series the zombies were only ever alerted to their presence via sound, even when a non-gut-covered human, who likely reeked from not having showered in x many days was standing in what should have been smellable range.
If we can set up the logistics infrastructure to maintain helos, including supply runs to remote outposts, in a remote, mountainous, 3rd world country full of angry people with guns, rpgs, a major chip on their shoulder, and a desire to kill us, then we can set up that same logistical network in the US, yes, including suburbia. In fact, it would probably be easier considering that we have actual bases here to support most of that sort of work.
Yes, they can do that because they have *time* to do it. Afghanistan was not planned and executed in under a week. Even an operation on the continental US it would take more then a week to deploy in the organized manner we saw in Afghanistan due to the sheer scale of the country, the spread out/reproductive nature of zombies, and the fact that as they speak the infrastructure they need to do this is already breaking down.
What we see in the show, pockets of nat guard/mil deployed in a "martial law/fema" style which is the SOP for this kind of thing, the government has plans in place for these sorts of things precisely because they dont have time to make plans when emergencies happen.
No one even realizes whats happening until ~ a week into this scenario (already too late) so even *if* the chain of command still exists and can make up the plan you speak of on the spot, it has no time left to get it started, let alone to move the people/material needed to create a self sustaining anti zombie force able to defend everyone that is left, let alone wipe out all the zombies.
At best all it could do is protect isolated pockets of people, but with ever dwindling resources.
You also forgot to mention all those helicopters are getting nonstop replacement and repaired parts brought in from outside the area. This also assume the techs that work on the choppers have survived in enough number to work on them.
I think a real fortification would work. A castle or somewhere with thick concrete or brick walls with enough flat roof space and grounds to grow crops. It takes an acre to feed 10-15 people. Then you have water issues. One disease can wipe out that walled in community pretty easily so hygiene and sanitation would be of the utmost importance. Surviving the zombies is the easy part.
The usually use 'weight of numbers' though - so eventually they can push over some fences.
Characters are periodically shown 'culling the herd' and/or leading them away to avoid this.
I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.
And there's really no way they managed to stuff them all into that arena either.
chaos0xomega wrote: Because apparrently all zombies have superhuman strength and can bust down doors and tear holes through chain link fences with relative ease.
I was just thinking you would need a half decent wall capable of bearing some weight. Even the thousand + walker herds in the comics can physically only put so much weight to bear.
The usually use 'weight of numbers' though - so eventually they can push over some fences.
Characters are periodically shown 'culling the herd' and/or leading them away to avoid this.
I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.
And there's really no way they managed to stuff them all into that arena either.
Still - Drama for the Drama God, I suppose!
That may be in the season finale. Alternatively that may be next season, showing us something a little different than TWD.
Alpharius wrote: I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.
I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.
Alpharius wrote: I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.
I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.
The greater Los Angeles area has a population of near 18 million.
They haven't really said that on the show have they - all the zombies are stuck indoors right now?
You get enough weight behind it, a fence is going to come down, be it just falling over, metal fatigue, or constant pushing back and forth loosening the braces or connections.Plus a brick wall provides a blockage of line of sight and sound(to a lesser extent) making the zombies less prone to horde around it and get agitated.
Then you have the other benefits of providing somewhat better security against human threats. Yeah a rope or ladder can climb it but at least any Joe Blow with a master key cant cut through it leaving a gap or repaired weak point for zombies. If its big and tall enough you can actually walk the perimeter of the wall as well.
Plus the fence set up in the show is likely very flimsy, I doubt they embedded the posts in concrete, it was likely hurriedly constructed by any trooper they could find and mostly used it as a speed bump until they themselves could get to it and fix the issue.
Frazzled wrote: Why do you need thick concrete against zombies?
Its a similar effect to metal fatigue, they are not strong enough to knock over/through things on the first go, but they keep pushing/pounding/bending/ect on things, and more zombies come to help, eventually it will break down whatever they are bashing on even if you can stay inside indefinitely. Even if you hand waive away their relentless assault, at some point the Z's pile up and they just climb over.
Of course *some* areas have fences or walls that will hold up, but most fences already have holes in them, or are not high enough, or sturdy enough. The fortifications that are needed are few and far between, in demand, and certainly not "in peoples houses" surrounded by at most a 5ft chain link fence and some press board walls. Most houses have huge windows in the front room, would be cake to get through with zombies. Even things like prisons will need modifications so that there are entry and exit points as you need/want to leave at some point.
Spoiler:
even in the walking dead comics, once they get to alexandria which has extremely solid walls, they have to herd the large zombie groups away as they can easily over run the walls. Just hiding behind a wall and going "well, i am good, no way they can get me now!" is a bit naive.
and that is *just* for zombies.. people are a real threat in bad situations, always someone who wants what you have.
Alpharius wrote: I'm still somewhat amazed at how few zombies there are out and about in the greater LA area though - especially with what we 'know' happened in Atlanta.
I think the idea is that most folks died in their homes/indoors and are stuck.
The greater Los Angeles area has a population of near 18 million.
They haven't really said that on the show have they - all the zombies are stuck indoors right now?
That's my guess. Alternatively, all of them are stuck downtown. There may be small pockets of people attracting them.
Plus the fence set up in the show is likely very flimsy, I doubt they embedded the posts in concrete, it was likely hurriedly constructed by any trooper they could find and mostly used it as a speed bump until they themselves could get to it and fix the issue.
LOL yeah its one of those "contruction instant set up" style fences... the kind I have seen blown over by the *wind* let alone zombies.
Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.
Breotan wrote: Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.
Breotan wrote: Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.
Well considering they only move towards sound, and in the post apocalyptic zombie world, most sound is the sound of zombies, they probably don't end up moving more than a few miles in any direction over their lif... err... deathtime....
Breotan wrote: Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.
Well considering they only move towards sound, and in the post apocalyptic zombie world, most sound is the sound of zombies, they probably don't end up moving more than a few miles in any direction over their lif... err... deathtime....
The authors of the show disagree with you.
AMC's Zombie Rules for The Walking Dead, as Tweeted before the Season 1 premiere:
Zombie Rule #1: Ability to run is based on the amount of time a zombie has been undead, and how much decay has set in.
Zombie Rule #2: Zombies decay but at a much slower rate than humans, and it's still possible to differentiate between young and old zombies.
Zombie Rule #3: Zombies are like lions: if they've eaten, you can walk by them without fear, but a pack of hungry zombies will attack you.
Zombie Rule #4: The quickest speed of any zombie is a shambling run. see Night of the Living Dead. NO sprinters exist.
Zombie Rule #5: Zombies are not dexterous. They cannot pick up or use any items more complex than a rock or a stick.
Zombie Rule #6: Zombies have poor eyesight but they do have a strong sense of smell.
Zombie Rule #7: Zombies cannot speak but can communicate by pack mentality. The herd tends to move together if they sight food.
Zombie Rule #8: There is no overt recognition of people or places, there is a sense of familiarity that can dictate where a zombie moves.
Zombie Rule #9: There's no known cause of the zombie mutation, but it's suspected to be a virus or infection.
Zombie Rule #10: Once you're bitten you'll die and reanimate as a walker. How long it takes is related to the nature your bite.
Though there are some liberties taken in the series for dramatic purposes that the book is able to not have to take.
But they are generally consistent with romero zombies, slow-medium pace, but just as strong as normal.
The whole pack mentality thing means once they clear out an area of food they just shamble on to the next bit or aimlessly wander.
Frazzled wrote: Why do you need thick concrete against zombies?
Its a similar effect to metal fatigue, they are not strong enough to knock over/through things on the first go, but they keep pushing/pounding/bending/ect on things, and more zombies come to help, eventually it will break down whatever they are bashing on even if you can stay inside indefinitely. Even if you hand waive away their relentless assault, at some point the Z's pile up and they just climb over.
Of course *some* areas have fences or walls that will hold up, but most fences already have holes in them, or are not high enough, or sturdy enough. The fortifications that are needed are few and far between, in demand, and certainly not "in peoples houses" surrounded by at most a 5ft chain link fence and some press board walls. Most houses have huge windows in the front room, would be cake to get through with zombies. Even things like prisons will need modifications so that there are entry and exit points as you need/want to leave at some point.
Spoiler:
even in the walking dead comics, once they get to alexandria which has extremely solid walls, they have to herd the large zombie groups away as they can easily over run the walls. Just hiding behind a wall and going "well, i am good, no way they can get me now!" is a bit naive.
and that is *just* for zombies.. people are a real threat in bad situations, always someone who wants what you have.
But again, even a slight wall was enough to keep them away until they herded them off. A nice wooden palisade would do nicely. Your stereotypical West US Fort would have been fine.
We're talking military units here. I don't think human attack is that kind of deal. Plus you don't want to build up for a human attack. Thats why castles got low after the boom juice was invented.
Yeah, places like the US, russia, china, and a few other places that could muster enough well equipped troops could establish bases and hold out for sure if thats the plan they came up with right off the bat on day one.
Its plausible that at least one or more countries would be able to pull it off, but its also plausible that they would break down before being able to put of a sustainable defense.
Personally I would love to see it depicted in the series or comic. A hold out military base would be as good a group of survivors as any if not a bit better equipped.
other survivor groups Id like to see:
large group of medieval re-enactors going... well medieval on the zombies.
some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's
easysauce wrote: Yeah, places like the US, russia, china, and a few other places that could muster enough well equipped troops could establish bases and hold out for sure if thats the plan they came up with right off the bat on day one.
Its plausible that at least one or more countries would be able to pull it off, but its also plausible that they would break down before being able to put of a sustainable defense.
Personally I would love to see it depicted in the series or comic. A hold out military base would be as good a group of survivors as any if not a bit better equipped.
Thats kiind of the WWZ situation. The US retreated to a defensible area: the Rockies, and counterattacked once they got back on their feet. For the walkers they just used rifles primarily. They saved the tanks etc for the people...
other survivor groups Id like to see:
large group of medieval re-enactors going... well medieval on the zombies.
some kind of tinker-er type guy who builds traps or army of darkness style autos to deal with the Z's
ninjas
Combine them! Lets lighten this up with a little Deux ex machina of our clan of wandering merry men/Ninjas/Ash saving Alexandria's bacon and then continue on to their epic pilgrimage to Renfair...
Breotan wrote: Regarding TWD, shouldn't there be about 200 million zombies on the East coast? I know the South is less populated but I'd think the walkers would be spreading out from the Northeast looking for fresh meat.
Population density map:
Ya, looking at that map the whole Washington D.C. plot line should be a no-go. There's no way in hell they'd make it to D.C. even in MRAPs. In fact, they really need to increase the amount of walkers encountered the farther North the group goes. Also, what about these migration patterns that they've seen walkers do?
well given that walkers do decay, albeit at a slower rate, its possible that many of the walkers simply decayed too far and ceased to be animate/turned to dirt and bones(its been what? a few years since the collapse of civilization as of the most recent seasons of TWD?)
Alternatively, like in LA, most of the walkers are still trapped indoors and we simply dont see them because our heroes dont go into every last single building they see?
Alpharius wrote: We should probably worry about that over in the "TWD" thread.
The LA area should be bad enough!
Though I suppose you can get out to the desert fast enough - maybe!
Do-able. With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour. Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.
Alpharius wrote: We should probably worry about that over in the "TWD" thread.
The LA area should be bad enough!
Though I suppose you can get out to the desert fast enough - maybe!
Do-able. With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour. Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.
Ha!
I see you've had the...pleasure of driving in Southern California?
I lived there for 6 years - couldn't wait to get out towards the end.
The weather was great, but the cost of living and the population density... no thanks!
I'd imagine in TWD Universe, So-Cal would go belly up double quick!
Frazzled wrote: With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour.
I suppose it depends on how many abandoned vehicles are on the freeways, bridges, and blocking on/offramps.
Frazzled wrote: Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.
I keep bringing up Dawn of the Dead and that's because they touched on this briefly at the end. Other people have the same idea and they're likely to bring the zombies along with them somehow.
One thing. Do we know if there was a patient zero or ground zero for this? In Dawn it was everywhere at once. In 28 Days Later and I Legend, it started at a single spot and fanned out.
Frazzled wrote: With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour.
I suppose it depends on how many abandoned vehicles are on the freeways, bridges, and blocking on/offramps.
Frazzled wrote: Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.
I keep bringing up Dawn of the Dead and that's because they touched on this briefly at the end. Other people have the same idea and they're likely to bring the zombies along with them somehow.
One thing. Do we know if there was a patient zero or ground zero for this? In Dawn it was everywhere at once. In 28 Days Later and I Legend, it started at a single spot and fanned out.
TWD and FTWD seem to perpetuate the romero style of zombie apocalypse, where the cause is unknown, the Z's are slow-medium speed only (and sort of remember some old habits... sometimes.. might have a "OMG they learn moment" like in day of the dead), and its something that everyone on the planet is already infected/affected by before the first zombie appears.
So there really is no epi center or patient zero
As a Canadian, I like to think im at an advantage, 9 months of the year the Z's will freeze solid, the other 3 months, bears will probably eat them or something.
Frazzled wrote: With the deserted conditions we've seen so far they could be the only people in seventy years to hit freeways without major traffic. They could be out of LA basin in under an hour.
I suppose it depends on how many abandoned vehicles are on the freeways, bridges, and blocking on/offramps.
Frazzled wrote: Ride up to Lake Arrowhead and live out the apocalypse resort style. Yea baby.
I keep bringing up Dawn of the Dead and that's because they touched on this briefly at the end. Other people have the same idea and they're likely to bring the zombies along with them somehow.
One thing. Do we know if there was a patient zero or ground zero for this? In Dawn it was everywhere at once. In 28 Days Later and I Legend, it started at a single spot and fanned out.
TWD and FTWD seem to perpetuate the romero style of zombie apocalypse, where the cause is unknown, the Z's are slow-medium speed only (and sort of remember some old habits... sometimes.. might have a "OMG they learn moment" like in day of the dead), and its something that everyone on the planet is already infected/affected by before the first zombie appears.
So there really is no epi center or patient zero
As a Canadian, I like to think im at an advantage, 9 months of the year the Z's will freeze solid, the other 3 months, bears will probably eat them or something.
Not to mention the sheer size of Canada means that if you avoid heavily populated metropolitan centers like Toronto and go into more spread out areas up north you won't have to deal with as many zeds in the hordes they portray to roam around in packs in the show. Moose cavalry and beaver tail-tapping detection systems mean we definitely come ahead of others in cases of the zombie apocalypse
It would have to be an everywhere at once kind of thing esp. considering that everyone on the planet is apparently infected. Also, if it was a patient zero type situation, based on what we've seen on the show, it would be virtually impossible for it to have spread internationally, since you figure that it seems to take a bit victim at most a few hours to turn, during which time their health degrades rather drastically and very visibly, and you find that they would either turn into a walker mid-flight (in which case your flight crew, sealed behind a locked door, is declaring an in-flight emergency and landing a plane full of walkers which will be met with a SWAT style response on the ground - even if they dont know what a zombie is off the bat, they'll very quickly soon find out and put down the infection) or be so sick when you landed that your first destination is going to be quarantine.
For a real life zombie scenario to work, you're either looking at a short gestation (or whatever the term is) period (would need to be short enough that it could spread faster than the response, but not short enough to prevent international spread) or a long gestation period (would need to be long enough to allow international spread, but not long enough to allow a response). In theory theres a very slim margin at either end within which this could reasonably work as a global apocalypse scenario, in practice its almost impossible.
Also important to remember that the primary method of transmission is at odds with the zombies instinctual behavior. You infect someone by biting, but you're biting them out of the desire to devour them. Meaning that successful zombies don't actually generate many (if any) new patients, because they've already killed and eaten any potential new zombies beyond the threshold of reanimation.
Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear*
There is no gestation period as everyone is already affected so when they die they turn into Z"s.. there is no transmission of the "virus" and its not even sure it is a virus, what every "it" its, everyone already has it prior to z's appearing, hence why its actually plausible (not 100% but plausible) for it to overrun even out advanced military.
everyone is already doomed to turn into a Z when they die before the first Z appears.
Everyone already has it. People aren't turned into zombies from bites or their blood according to the writer. Rather they only turn into zombies because they happened to die. The blood and saliva causes an infection which kills the infected person, and once they die they zombify.
Now I would note that even remote areas still wind up being hit by the zombies eventually. The herds wander aimlessly. For instance in the Tv series there's a guy who's hiding out in a cabin in the middle of nowhere who's eventually taken out by some wanderers.
In reference to Canada though, that seems like a better place to stay than the US. Well if you can find the supplies. The comics establish that over the winter the zombies slow down, and over time they've become weaker. So as long as you aren't hit up by a herd you would probably be better off against the colder Canadian zombies than the US ones. =P
Oh and the Tv series establishes that the infection's world wide. The comics don't IIRC, but the series has the scientist in season 1 note it, and in a latter series some of the survivors see a group which has head up into the US from South America (but they can't understand what they're saying).
Spoiler:
Actually, in the newest comic book issues Eugene is repairing a radio which the writer has hinted to will allow him to get into contact with the wider world.
Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear*
There is no gestation period as everyone is already affected so when they die they turn into Z"s.. there is no transmission of the "virus" and its not even sure it is a virus, what every "it" its, everyone already has it prior to z's appearing, hence why its actually plausible (not 100% but plausible) for it to overrun even out advanced military.
everyone is already doomed to turn into a Z when they die before the first Z appears.
Wyrmalla wrote: Everyone already has it. People aren't turned into zombies from bites or their blood according to the writer. Rather they only turn into zombies because they happened to die. The blood and saliva causes an infection which kills the infected person, and once they die they zombify.
Now I would note that even remote areas still wind up being hit by the zombies eventually. The herds wander aimlessly. For instance in the Tv series there's a guy who's hiding out in a cabin in the middle of nowhere who's eventually taken out by some wanderers.
In reference to Canada though, that seems like a better place to stay than the US. Well if you can find the supplies. The comics establish that over the winter the zombies slow down, and over time they've become weaker. So as long as you aren't hit up by a herd you would probably be better off against the colder Canadian zombies than the US ones. =P
Oh and the Tv series establishes that the infection's world wide. The comics don't IIRC, but the series has the scientist in season 1 note it, and in a latter series some of the survivors see a group which has head up into the US from South America (but they can't understand what they're saying).
Yes. I am aware, but you will note I was discussing in terms of *reality*. Everyone on earth being infected with a disease that has evidently lain dormant for quite some time only to suddenly/globally/simultaneously start making people sick is not, at all, even remotely, realistic.
Also, in regards to temperatures in Canada vs the US it sounds like someone hasnt quite done their homework. Average winter temps in a large part of the US (the entire Midwest, in an area roughly bound by Colorado, Oklahoma, Idaho, Illinois, and Michigan; as well as the northeast from NY/PA/North Jersey and North) are as low as, or lower than, the average winter temperatures in the majority of Canadas most populated areas.
Which is probably the reason why the comics start up two months after the outbreak... I haven't seen this particular series though, but how they're representing it is that society at large is ignoring the issue and that the government is doing what it can to cover it up so as not to cause a panic. Nobody connected the dots together until there were herds in the streets.
IIRC the tv series proposes that it was a biological weapon, but of course that's just people throwing out there thoughts. The CDC didn't know what the hell it was, so it must have hit fast enough that nobody could pin down the route causes (and there wound up only being one actual scientist left researching it just three months into the outbreak, to our knowledge).
Ref: Winter temperatures. I'm referring to the winter represented in the comics. Now I'm not American, but I suspect that Georgia's winter's not quite as bad as Canada's. Youknow, Southern United States and all. Still bloody cold though.
Wyrmalla wrote: Which is probably the reason why the comics start up two months after the outbreak... I haven't seen this particular series though, but how they're representing it is that society at large is ignoring the issue and that the government is doing what it can to cover it up so as not to cause a panic. Nobody connected the dots together until there were herds in the streets.
IIRC the tv series proposes that it was a biological weapon, but of course that's just people throwing out there thoughts. The CDC didn't know what the hell it was, so it must have hit fast enough that nobody could pin down the route causes (and there wound up only being one actual scientist left researching it just three months into the outbreak, to our knowledge).
Ref: Winter temperatures. I'm referring to the winter represented in the comics. Now I'm not American, but I suspect that Georgia's winter's not quite as bad as Canada's. Youknow, Southern United States and all. Still bloody cold though.
Oh yeah, thats not that bad, but if you go into upstate New York, Connecticut, Massachussets, and northward, and parts of Northern and Western New Jersey, into Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Colorado, parts of Utah, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, and Oklahoma, etc. it gets really fething cold. You'd be surprised just how cold Oklahoma gets, considering its just north of Texas (roughly the same latitude as northern georgia and the carolinas actually), but the temperature can reach -30 deg F or colder, and they sometimes get hit with a foot of snow at a time, etc.
Yeah, they seemed to invest in the idea that 2 seasons minimum would be needed to get the ball rolling. Considering the total episodes ordered, including the season 2, is still the same or less than a normal tv season on nbc, abc, cw, or fox.
Mine was, why didn't they do something more permanent about the horde in the stadium? Seriously, chains and a block of wood for each door?
I kind of think they had a plan for that.
That plan was "COBALT". They pull out, the stadium gets bombed.
Hard.
In any regards, FTWD has kept my attention far far far better than TWD itself ever did. I have really enjoyed this show, because the zombies weren't just "there".
It kind of felt like the difference between the Xenomorph in "Alien" versus the Xenomorphs in "Aliens". In one movie, they're a relatively unseen threat which could be around every corner--in the other, they're always there and it's just a matter of who the body count picks for itself today.
I enjoyed the finale. As for the base perimeter defenses maybe they hadn't encountered a horde that size and didn't realize the result of the weight on the fence.
I'm looking forward to next season. They already killed of one of the family characters that was annoying me and nipped the love triangle crap in the bud so we don't have to sit thru another Shane/Rick/Lori scenario.
Mine was, why didn't they do something more permanent about the horde in the stadium? Seriously, chains and a block of wood for each door?
The door situation seems reasonable. I mean, you have to work with what you got, though it did seem a bit light, you would think they would have done more chains, and some wood (or even steel pipe) shoring to keep those door secured. What seems unreasonable is that they wouldn't have a guard or two posted there...
As for the base perimeter defenses maybe they hadn't encountered a horde that size and didn't realize the result of the weight on the fence.
Two problems: 1. We know they had encountered a horde of that size, see also: Stadium. 2. Beyond the stadium horde, if the military is having such a hard time keeping control of the situation that they had to put a plan like 'Cobalt' into action, then presumably they must have been aware of the existence of large hordes. Except that doesnt jive with the kill counts, so *shrug*.
IMO, I thought it was a load of BS, but we already know Im jaded against the show and the premise.
Hulksmash wrote: I enjoyed the finale. As for the base perimeter defenses maybe they hadn't encountered a horde that size and didn't realize the result of the weight on the fence.
I'm looking forward to next season. They already killed of one of the family characters that was annoying me and nipped the love triangle crap in the bud so we don't have to sit thru another Shane/Rick/Lori scenario.
Plus, Travis SNAPPED!
The switch has flipped!
I suspect that we'll learn a lot more about Travis in season 2, including why he talked about being in so many fights. Like I've been saying, he's been TOO under control...it clearly smacks of something he's trained himself to do/be, and that suggests his base nature is perhaps quite different.
On Talking Dead last night, they talked about how Madison might have skeletons in her closet as well. What's more, the writer mentioned that fans have overlooked how a Southern drawl creeps into Madison's voice now and then. Hardwick joked about Madison saying that they should visit her brother Rick Grimes. Everyone laughed...but you HAVE to think that there must be some connection between the casts for the writer to bring it up. But as much as TV execs love their crossovers, it's hard to see how that could happen other than as a pre-apocalypse flashback.
Overall, I really enjoyed the season. I feel like the writers played with more themes in this show -- particularly those dealing with class and our relationships with our neighbors -- than what we tend to see in TWD these days. I suppose it's easier to pull that stuff off in a world that's much closer to our own. I could certainly nitpick about this or that, but in the end I thought it was entertaining, interesting and different.
I expect they'll find the boat already occupied, whether it be by zombies, or some other survivors who saw it sitting out there and thought itd be a good place to hang out.
easysauce wrote: Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear.
There are some exceptions. If you have some sort of survivable wound, you can get stitched up and off you go. Yet a bite from a walker will cascade and kill you within a few days at most.
My thoughts regarding a horde of that size has more to do with actually in the open and against chainlink fence. It's easy to think that a solidly built chain-link will stand up to a bunch of people pushing up against it but maybe they don't consider that people won't jam up like zombies? Also remember they are supposedly clear for a 6 mile radius at this point inward.
Additionally it could be down to units at this point. Maybe there is no higher communication. You did hear the soldiers on the tower discussing there was no higher command right?
They throw out little things to at least ease the sense of disbelief for their audience. So you can think "Good, that got at least a nod". If you choose to ignore that and fail to suspend your sense of disbelief it's probably not the show for you. I mean, it's a show about zombies
@Gorgon
I'm looking forward to learning more about Madison and Travis. I feel like are going to grow together in interesting ways. I also think it's interesting that she didn't seem particularly surprised at his brutal attack of the soldier like some of the others were. I feel that while we don't know about them they fit together because of how much they know about each other. I don't see the writers playing the unexplored past plot lines with these two which will be nice.
Also really liking Nick more. Out of the people in the house the only one I truly was annoyed by is now dead. Now we're down to meh's (Salazars daughter, Travis's son) and people I like. So I'm looking forward to next year.
Additionally it could be down to units at this point. Maybe there is no higher communication. You did hear the soldiers on the tower discussing there was no higher command right?
I heard it mentioned but wasnt paying too much attention and didnt get any specifics, figured it was probably just wide-eyed rumors or casual foxhole bitching about how gakky the LT is/was at his job, or more likely the fact that he was dead and they didn't have a commanding officer, aside from maybe an NCOIC?
Another big reason I dislike the episode is because they took the 'inept military' and 'ineffective military' tropes to a whole new level. It seems like, for all intents and purposes, the military was capable of making some headway (what was it? cleared a 6 mile radius from the fence? thats a pretty huge area, considering that a platoon was able to successfully clear and hold that, it would seem that the military response is far more successful and capable than one would expect), yet they opted to pull-out for reasons unknown (do they ever mention whats going on at the other 11 safe zones below the San Gabriel mountains? were they overrun? I'd assume not all were equally successful, but unless they were all being overwhelmed with the exception of this one, it doesn't seem like pulling out was a reasonable course of action). In other words, the military was so ineffective that they actually *WERE* effective but decided they weren't effective enough and that firebombing/nuking cities was a better solution than doing something that was actually generating real results... or maybe they were so effective that they were actually ineffective, either way a bit of a disconnect here.
On top of that, not only did the main cast demonstrate military ineptness by breaking the rules and doing their own thing because they were convinced of their own moral superiority over their protectors, but they outright & intentionally took a course of action to kill military forces and destroy the safe area, and in the process likely killing all their neighbors/those who weren't part of their little selfish clique of special snowflake survivors. In other words, the main cast felt the military was so inept/the military executed its job so ineptly, that a group of donkey-caves intentionally sabotaged the entire operation in the most idiotic of ways (which would have been fully preventable if the military was less inept to begin with), in the process killing dozens of soldiers and innocent civilians (intentionally, mind you) and as a result exacerbating their own situation and putting them in greater danger. At least in most other zombie fiction the survivors that are at loggerheads with the military authorities policy unintentionally get everyone killed by doing something stupid and selfish, but no, in FtWD, they had to take it to a whole new level and have them make conscious and rationalized decisions to help speed up the end of the world.
BTW, for all intents and purposes, there really isn't much to suggest that the military are in any way, shape, or form bad guys. We see that Liza and Exner were actually providing meaningful care to their patients, rather than the initial assumption the show had us make that they were lining people up against a wall and executing them or something.
easysauce wrote: Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear.
There are some exceptions. If you have some sort of survivable wound, you can get stitched up and off you go. Yet a bite from a walker will cascade and kill you within a few days at most.
AFAIK the canon is that zombies carry a lot of nasty bacteria and viruses incubating on their bodies, with them being walking bags of rotting meat. When you get bit, you're contracting a crap load of deadly diseases all at once, overloading the immune system. The reason it seems to have a 100% fatality rate is because all bite victims so far (on TWD at least) lack access to intensive medical care, medical facilities and medicine. It's the apocalypse, society has broken down and the things you need to survive a bite are hard to come by now. Theoretically, it may be possible to survive a bite under ideal conditions, i.e. in a well staffed and supplied hospital. However, I've been away on holiday for the last fortnight and haven't caught up yet, but I know from the promos that one character (liza?) Ends up in a hospital. Have there been any new revelations?
The lack of a cure for bites actually features as a plot point in the comics when a hostile group poison their weapons with zombie gunk. Get cut by a poisoned weapon, and its the same as being bitten. So the slightest wound is fatal.
I'm looking forward to learning more about Madison and Travis. I feel like are going to grow together in interesting ways. I also think it's interesting that she didn't seem particularly surprised at his brutal attack of the soldier like some of the others were. I feel that while we don't know about them they fit together because of how much they know about each other. I don't see the writers playing the unexplored past plot lines with these two which will be nice.
Also really liking Nick more. Out of the people in the house the only one I truly was annoyed by is now dead. Now we're down to meh's (Salazars daughter, Travis's son) and people I like. So I'm looking forward to next year.
Nick's little game there with Strand and the key was a small but important moment. And very much in character, I think. Strand is a guy who craves control, but Nick is streetwise and wouldn't allow himself to be a puppet. Nick would do things on his own terms.
*IF* Nick can ever get himself clean, he's a potential team MVP. And Strand, being a great salesperson and assessor of people, already knows that about Nick. Those two have a very interesting relationship.
Maybe I'm just a blind optimist, but I felt like all along some of the stuff that fans complained about with these characters were intentional choices by the writers and actors that will make more sense later. From what they were saying on Talking Dead, it seems that things are indeed headed that way.
Remember "Why would Madison and Travis just charge into that church?" But maybe it's not the first time Madison's been in a place like that. Hell, Madison doesn't seem to flinch at much of anything...which is more than a little curious. And there's reason to think that Travis has spent some time in bad places and is confident about handling himself. You're right...their bond might partially be about having been through some stuff before they met.
Having them not tell their neighbors about COBALT was definitely a interesting (and incredibly coldblooded) choice. I think there's probably some societal commentary there, but I also got a sense during the driving scene that it was meant to suggest that Madison and Travis weren't quite like everyone else...that they weren't just creatures of suburbia, happy in their bubble.
Well, theres generally a bit of a disconnect regarding Cobalt on the show. The only person who seemed to have any knowledge whatsoever of Cobalt and what it meant was Reynolds (and presumably the missing/dead LT Moyers), otherwise the dudes that bailed out after Moyers died/was fragged/was abandoned probably would have RTB'd to evac on the 'last helo out' instead of trying to go it alone driving in a world without working gas pumps.
On top of that, not only did the main cast demonstrate military ineptness by breaking the rules and doing their own thing because they were convinced of their own moral superiority over their protectors, but they outright & intentionally took a course of action to kill military forces and destroy the safe area, and in the process likely killing all their neighbors/those who weren't part of their little selfish clique of special snowflake survivors. In other words, the main cast felt the military was so inept/the military executed its job so ineptly, that a group of donkey-caves intentionally sabotaged the entire operation in the most idiotic of ways (which would have been fully preventable if the military was less inept to begin with), in the process killing dozens of soldiers and innocent civilians (intentionally, mind you) and as a result exacerbating their own situation and putting them in greater danger. At least in most other zombie fiction the survivors that are at loggerheads with the military authorities policy unintentionally get everyone killed by doing something stupid and selfish, but no, in FtWD, they had to take it to a whole new level and have them make conscious and rationalized decisions to help speed up the end of the world.
I will say that finding out you're going to be terminated does kind of eliminate your civic duty to support your country and military. They were operating respectfully until;
1) They got knock knocked and the military took members of their family without explanation and with violence. In the middle of the night and wouldn't tell them where they went.
2) They were lied to. Daniel didn't get to go with his wife amongst other issues like no one being willing to discuss where people go or when they might come back.
That happens, they happen to luck upon Cobalt which is a plan to "humanely" kill the people remaining in the camps, and they take actions that no one can fault them for. I think it's interesting that you think they have a moral obligation to let people kill them instead of protecting their families.
Also I'd point out that you don't know that they intended for all the soldiers and civilians to die. Maybe they underestimated the threat of the herd. Maybe, because the soldiers protecting them managed to keep them safe they figured any main base would be able to handle the distraction? Additionally only Daniel, who is shown as a total cold blooded crazy, saw the actual numbers walkers. Not that I think they wouldn't have made the same decision but you see Madison and Travis willing to help take a few seconds to open the cages so people can get out that were being held. Which is more than the military was going to do for them. Especially considering that last conversation Liza had with the doctor regarding who gets to be kept safe.
1) They got knock knocked and the military took members of their family without explanation and with violence. In the middle of the night and wouldn't tell them where they went.
2) They were lied to. Daniel didn't get to go with his wife amongst other issues like no one being willing to discuss where people go or when they might come back.
While I could see why they, in universe, might be upset and bothered by this, at the end of the day from what we see (and as a result, what they also see) there wasn't actually anything really shady going on in this department.
That happens, they happen to luck upon Cobalt which is a plan to "humanely" kill the people remaining in the camps, and they take actions that no one can fault them for. I think it's interesting that you think they have a moral obligation to let people kill them instead of protecting their families.
Which, like I said, only one person apparently knew about. That plan also makes zero sense, since (as far as we know) the majority of the surviving population exists in said camps (unless the military has established a massive safe zone of sorts in the flyover states somewhere with hundreds of thousands/millions of personnel and civilians living safely within it), killing them in order to pull back and consolidate so that they can continue fighting is pointless, because at that point they no longer have a purpose to continue fighting, except for their own personal survival, in which case they would probably be better off taking, at the very least, able bodied civilians with them as conscripts and/or comfort women/breeders, particularly given the disproportionately large number of males (the majority of whom are in their late teens and early 20s) relative to females.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as a sidenote, they were prepping patients for airlift out of the safe zone, whos to say they wouldn't also take uninfected?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further sidenote: Season 2 is essentially going to be TWD on a boat it seems. If FtWD was supposed to cover the collapse of society, then it doesn't seem like they intended it to last more than 7 episodes or whatever, because after that it seems as though we find ourselves with a group of survivors trying to eke out a living in a post zombie world where the concept of something like a government or a military no longer exists. Unless at some point they happen across a carrier group or something out at sea and fall into the evil mustache-twirling clutches of the survivng US government.
Also, as a sidenote, they were prepping patients for airlift out of the safe zone, whos to say they wouldn't also take uninfected?
Further sidenote: Season 2 is essentially going to be TWD on a boat it seems. If FtWD was supposed to cover the collapse of society, then it doesn't seem like they intended it to last more than 7 episodes or whatever, because after that it seems as though we find ourselves with a group of survivors trying to eke out a living in a post zombie world where the concept of something like a government or a military no longer exists. Unless at some point they happen across a carrier group or something out at sea and fall into the evil mustache-twirling clutches of the survivng US government.
I don't think they would have left survivors in their fenced compounds without protection if they meant to get everyone out. The fact that it was so easy for the soldiers to go AWOL further points to the local chain of command being completely non-existent. It was interesting to hear the Dr talking on the radio about the base people were being evaced to.
Yeah, next season is going to be shades of Dawn of the Dead and Waterworld mixed together.
Really liked this episode, the mr strand character is awesome I really am liking him, the idea that they are going to board his yacht should make for some interesting shows as then they can travel a bit along the coast and make landings/explore different things.
When the series started I was pretty on the fence, wasnt too good for the first two episodes, but still watchable. Now I am really starting to like it, mostly because the people dont represent the creme de la creme of society.
The scene where the family leaves the now abandoned safe zone, but wont even warn their neighbors, strikes me as chillingly realistic.
So where ricks group is a bit too altruistic at times to be believable, this group acts almost entirely out of self interest which is something I personally dont agree with, but ultimately a more realistic depiction of how 99% of modern suburbanites would react.
easysauce wrote: Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear.
There are some exceptions. If you have some sort of survivable wound, you can get stitched up and off you go. Yet a bite from a walker will cascade and kill you within a few days at most.
??exceptions?? to what?
Of course people can still survive normal wounds, I never said otherwise, but anyone who dies for any reason will come back as a zombie with no exceptions barring severe head trauma.
I wouldnt say 'no exceptions'. We see, throughout TWD, that quite a few people end up basically being eaten, but not entirely, leaving behind a half-consumed rotting carcass.
Its always been a bit of a head scratcher for me, since we see, at various points, zombies crawling around, missing the entire bottom half of their bodies, dragging their internal organs and entrails behind them, so its a bit of a question of, how much do you have to be missing to not reanimate, since there has to be some threshold beyond which, even without head trauma, reanimation is impossible.
chaos0xomega wrote: I wouldnt say 'no exceptions'. We see, throughout TWD, that quite a few people end up basically being eaten, but not entirely, leaving behind a half-consumed rotting carcass.
Its always been a bit of a head scratcher for me, since we see, at various points, zombies crawling around, missing the entire bottom half of their bodies, dragging their internal organs and entrails behind them, so its a bit of a question of, how much do you have to be missing to not reanimate, since there has to be some threshold beyond which, even without head trauma, reanimation is impossible.
We've seen zombies that are literally just a head and so far no one who has died has ever not come back without head trauma of some kind.
The answer to your question is well established by the author in that the line between re animation and just another corpse is head trauma.
chaos0xomega wrote: I wouldnt say 'no exceptions'. We see, throughout TWD, that quite a few people end up basically being eaten, but not entirely, leaving behind a half-consumed rotting carcass.
Its always been a bit of a head scratcher for me, since we see, at various points, zombies crawling around, missing the entire bottom half of their bodies, dragging their internal organs and entrails behind them, so its a bit of a question of, how much do you have to be missing to not reanimate, since there has to be some threshold beyond which, even without head trauma, reanimation is impossible.
We've seen zombies that are literally just a head and so far no one who has died has ever not come back without head trauma of some kind.
The answer to your question is well established by the author in that the line between re animation and just another corpse is head trauma.
There was the dead nurse in the hospital in Season 1 Ep1, when Rick wakes up. Her body was little more than a carcass, but her head and face were untouched.
easysauce wrote: Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear.
There are some exceptions. If you have some sort of survivable wound, you can get stitched up and off you go. Yet a bite from a walker will cascade and kill you within a few days at most.
AFAIK the canon is that zombies carry a lot of nasty bacteria and viruses incubating on their bodies, with them being walking bags of rotting meat. When you get bit, you're contracting a crap load of deadly diseases all at once, overloading the immune system.
Maybe, if the walker had rabies, but an otherwise normal person doesn't have enough "nasty bacteria and viruses" to kill anyone without dying to that same nasty stuff themselves in the first place. This suggests there's something else going on with the zombie virus other than reanimation.
chaos0xomega wrote: I wouldnt say 'no exceptions'. We see, throughout TWD, that quite a few people end up basically being eaten, but not entirely, leaving behind a half-consumed rotting carcass.
Its always been a bit of a head scratcher for me, since we see, at various points, zombies crawling around, missing the entire bottom half of their bodies, dragging their internal organs and entrails behind them, so its a bit of a question of, how much do you have to be missing to not reanimate, since there has to be some threshold beyond which, even without head trauma, reanimation is impossible.
We've seen zombies that are literally just a head and so far no one who has died has ever not come back without head trauma of some kind.
The answer to your question is well established by the author in that the line between re animation and just another corpse is head trauma.
There was the dead nurse in the hospital in Season 1 Ep1, when Rick wakes up. Her body was little more than a carcass, but her head and face were untouched.
Hardly the only example, but yeah, thats one of them.
I might be wrong, but iirc the only times we see head only zombies in the show, its the result of someone hacking the head off of an already reanimated zombie. As in, someone encounters a zombie shuffling around and takes its head off, and the head keeps... err... living. I dont recall seeing anyone dying by having their head cut off while they are still alive, but then their head turns out to a zombie.
Infection could be something to do with the brain- similar to Ant zombifier fungus thing. Just makes the host extremely chompy instead of climbing the highest tree. Transmitted through a bite, either saliva or it breeds on the teeth.
easysauce wrote: Chaos, we dont know much, what we do know for sure is that *everyone on earth is already affected by the zombie curse/virus/magic/whatever before zombies start to appear.
There are some exceptions. If you have some sort of survivable wound, you can get stitched up and off you go. Yet a bite from a walker will cascade and kill you within a few days at most.
AFAIK the canon is that zombies carry a lot of nasty bacteria and viruses incubating on their bodies, with them being walking bags of rotting meat. When you get bit, you're contracting a crap load of deadly diseases all at once, overloading the immune system.
Maybe, if the walker had rabies, but an otherwise normal person doesn't have enough "nasty bacteria and viruses" to kill anyone without dying to that same nasty stuff themselves in the first place. This suggests there's something else going on with the zombie virus other than reanimation.
Oh defiantly the Z's bite is more deadly then normal human bites.
Its not explicit why the bites are so varied in deadliness, ranging from hershel surviving one due to quick medical care/luck, vs people turning into Z's less then a minute after being bitten.
But as you say its two separate issues, the fact that zombie bites are deadly is totally separate from people rising up from the dead regardless of method of said death.
Ref zombie reanimation times: IIRC the timeline for it can be up to three days, but at least a few hours. This could be effected by the circumstances of the infection - i.e. where the person was bitten, or perhaps down to the person themselves - i.e. if everyone's infected maybe some are more effected than others. ...If that makes sense. Now the show does take some liberties with this. For instance, for dramatic effect, Shane comes back fairly quickly. In the comics Rick doesn't find Shane again for weeks after he was killed. So, going by the comics, it takes hours at least to become a zombie from a bite. If you're killed however then, perhaps down to the immune system falling apart, you reanimate within minutes to hours at the most.
On zombie heads. No, anyone who's had their head cut off will still have their head turn into a zombie. As noted Hershel goes this way, as does Tyreese in the comics (then there's the Governor taking that soldier's head and the cabin in the woods with the two decapitated soldiers too). Actually one of the latest issues has this as a plot point (where the decapitated heads are used as a warning). Zombies aren't alive. They even appear as black bodies on infrared. That they happen to eat is just a coincidence (i.e. a zombie that's just a head would still eat you, but the bits would fall out of its stump). If it helps people with how the hell that actually works, beyond the writer just wanting to do something cool, then I donno. The zombies are made up of nanomachines. =P
I haven't been watching this series (because screw it for being a network show and me being cheap), but I've been wondering if its dealt with a plot hole of both the Tv series and the comics. In later material after it was revealed that everyone's infected it has people come back from the dead. In supplemental web episodes and flashbacks we saw this happening during the initial stages of the virus. What I wonder is if this show's done much with that at all? Youknow, the big reveal's already been made, so are they bothering to hide it? It stuck me as odd that nobody happened to notice the unbitten dead rising, even with the lack of survivors. ...Though now that I think about it the military were shooting the people they executed in the head way back during the hospital scenes from the early series (already having been made aware of the fact obviously then). Ah, plot reasons.
I remember Herschels death, dont remember his head turning zombie though, but ill take your word for it. Regarding non-bite zombies, I dont think the situation comes up until after the reveal, most people that die up to that point die as a result of being bitten or devoured iirc, and if they die from another cause the survivors generally dont stick around the corpse long enough to see them reanimate.
Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that. They go driving through their neighborhood filled with their long time friends and neighbors and simply leave the gate open. They lure a horde of zombies to attack a hospital filled with innocent injured people who were about to be evacuated to rescue a couple other people and end up killing all the injured people and the soldiers defending them. Then they get told one person is dead and they sit there and argue about going to see the body which gets the one somewhat morally good character killed. The one character that is morally ambiguous seems like the only decent character in the show since and that's only because he acts like he has some sense and thinks things through, unlike the others which are dumb as rocks and act it. I wonder if its an intentional slight to make Californians look like selfish immoral morons?
Real world I dislike where its going because it has the potential to steal the main idea from John Ringo's Black Tide series which would stop that best selling series from becoming a show or movie in time. I hope he sues if it comes to that.
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that.
See, that's why I like the show. Maybe Travis or Salazar will end up like the Governor (hell, Salazar is already there, minus the Woodbury army), and this is their origin story. I don't necessarily have to like a protagonist to enjoy a story.
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that. They go driving through their neighborhood filled with their long time friends and neighbors and simply leave the gate open. They lure a horde of zombies to attack a hospital filled with innocent injured people who were about to be evacuated to rescue a couple other people and end up killing all the injured people and the soldiers defending them. Then they get told one person is dead and they sit there and argue about going to see the body which gets the one somewhat morally good character killed. The one character that is morally ambiguous seems like the only decent character in the show since and that's only because he acts like he has some sense and thinks things through, unlike the others which are dumb as rocks and act it. I wonder if its an intentional slight to make Californians look like selfish immoral morons?
Real world I dislike where its going because it has the potential to steal the main idea from John Ringo's Black Tide series which would stop that best selling series from becoming a show or movie in time. I hope he sues if it comes to that.
Well given my deep misgivings about the characters in the first two episodes this means I won't have to waste any more time on the show or trying to get to see the next few episodes
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that.
See, that's why I like the show. Maybe Travis or Salazar will end up like the Governor (hell, Salazar is already there, minus the Woodbury army), and this is their origin story. I don't necessarily have to like a protagonist to enjoy a story.
Its not about liking the protagonists, its about the protagonists being unbelievably stupid and foolish.
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that. They go driving through their neighborhood filled with their long time friends and neighbors and simply leave the gate open. They lure a horde of zombies to attack a hospital filled with innocent injured people who were about to be evacuated to rescue a couple other people and end up killing all the injured people and the soldiers defending them. Then they get told one person is dead and they sit there and argue about going to see the body which gets the one somewhat morally good character killed. The one character that is morally ambiguous seems like the only decent character in the show since and that's only because he acts like he has some sense and thinks things through, unlike the others which are dumb as rocks and act it. I wonder if its an intentional slight to make Californians look like selfish immoral morons?
Real world I dislike where its going because it has the potential to steal the main idea from John Ringo's Black Tide series which would stop that best selling series from becoming a show or movie in time. I hope he sues if it comes to that.
Well given my deep misgivings about the characters in the first two episodes this means I won't have to waste any more time on the show or trying to get to see the next few episodes
Well, we did also find out on Sunday that it is set in a decidedly Middle Class Neighborhood...
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that.
See, that's why I like the show. Maybe Travis or Salazar will end up like the Governor (hell, Salazar is already there, minus the Woodbury army), and this is their origin story. I don't necessarily have to like a protagonist to enjoy a story.
Its not about liking the protagonists, its about the protagonists being unbelievably stupid and foolish.
So shows should only depict very intelligent and wise characters?
The average person isnt really that smart, and half the people are below average, it actually makes a lot of sense to have a show with at least some of the characters making stupid and foolish decisions, *especially* since they are in a stressful non normal situation.
Col. Dash wrote: Am not a fan for several reasons. In universe, the characters are all morally deplorable, this episode doubled down my view of that. They go driving through their neighborhood filled with their long time friends and neighbors and simply leave the gate open. They lure a horde of zombies to attack a hospital filled with innocent injured people who were about to be evacuated to rescue a couple other people and end up killing all the injured people and the soldiers defending them. Then they get told one person is dead and they sit there and argue about going to see the body which gets the one somewhat morally good character killed. The one character that is morally ambiguous seems like the only decent character in the show since and that's only because he acts like he has some sense and thinks things through, unlike the others which are dumb as rocks and act it. I wonder if its an intentional slight to make Californians look like selfish immoral morons?
Real world I dislike where its going because it has the potential to steal the main idea from John Ringo's Black Tide series which would stop that best selling series from becoming a show or movie in time. I hope he sues if it comes to that.
Real world I don't see it going that route. Ringo's series (which I love and have also referenced) probably won't ever make TV. To expensive by far for it work. Not to mention liability issues and how to reconcile the arguably main character to something allowable on TV and have her retain her charm
As for the in universe I disagree on pretty much all counts with you. In regards to warning the neighbors the last time they tried to help a neighbor they missed their chance to evacuate and avoid all of this. Additionally they have until morning until "Cobalt" goes into effect. They don't have time to persuade a ton of people to come with.
Regarding the gate yes, they left it open. This is still early. They don't really understand the threat and have been told there is a 6 mile clear zone. Not to mention maybe they thought it'd be faster for people when they run for it when "Cobalt" starts if the gate is open? We dont' know their thoughts so assuming they didn't think about it is as valid as assuming they did. Personally I think it comes down to not understanding the world yet. Not fully.
As for the hospital you do realize these people don't know what you know right? It's a group that has been lied to, had their people taken in the middle of the night, and who have found out their supposed to be killed when the army pulls back. They are concerned with their family and that's it. Because the government pushed them into this by their actions.
.
Overall I'm not seeing morons. I'm seeing people willing to do what it takes to keep family safe and who take steps that allow that to happen. Including using resources available to them to overcome someone who is oppressing them. Do they make some mistakes and sometimes hesitate at the wrong times? Yep, just like normal people would. Calling a young woman a moron for wanting to see her mother's body (when that's important to their culture) seems a bit strong. Overall it's seems like a smart and resourceful core of a survivor group, up to and including coping with killing one of their own for being bitten within less than 2 weeks from normal society to it's collapse while spending the majority of that secluded from the actual collapse.
I love how people get mad at people for trying to save everyone that can't be saved and then get mad when they don't. It does show you can't please everyone
I'm somewhat annoyed that they had the main cast sequestered in safety behind fences for the better part of a week. The premise of this show is supposedly to show the collapse of society as the infection "spreads" (or more accurately, begins to manifest its main symptom - reanimation). And yet they copped out by taking the easy cheap solution by having most of it take place off screen during a time jump. It seems we had 3 episodes of social collapse (the first half of the season), and then a time jump to after the social collapse, when the last bastions of civilization are a handful of scattered military outposts.
As of the finale, it seems like the group are in a similar position to what Rick Grimes was in, in Season 1 Ep1 of TWD. Society has already collapsed, everybody's gone. Theres little to differentiate between the two shows now besides the well preserved zombies. Unless in Season 2 we learn that Los Angeles isn't quite as deserted as it appears (meaning, there are still large numbers of survivors).
I've talked about this before, but I don't understand why some focus so much on the "smartness" of the actions of the characters in TWD dramas. I don't watch a western or a political thriller and turn it into a "what ya wanna do here is..." game.
Besides, a narrative featuring nothing but "the right decisions" (if those could even be identified) would make for pretty boring entertainment.
gorgon wrote: I've talked about this before, but I don't understand why some focus so much on the "smartness" of the actions of the characters in TWD dramas. I don't watch a western or a political thriller and turn it into a "what ya wanna do here is..." game.
Besides, a narrative featuring nothing but "the right decisions" (if those could even be identified) would make for pretty boring entertainment.
Because everyone plays Left 4 Dead and figures they're suddenly a zombie survivalist expert.
gorgon wrote: I've talked about this before, but I don't understand why some focus so much on the "smartness" of the actions of the characters in TWD dramas. I don't watch a western or a political thriller and turn it into a "what ya wanna do here is..." game.
Besides, a narrative featuring nothing but "the right decisions" (if those could even be identified) would make for pretty boring entertainment.
I think the problem here is that FtWD shows the preposterousness of the entire walking dead situation. The military has to be callous and incompetent, no one could have ever come up with the idea of the dead rising again, and most of the zombification has to occur offscreen(hordes appearing out of nowhere).
That was brutal, and definitely ups the fear factor on the mother's part regarding interacting with the infected.
handled!. 
