It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.
Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).
Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.
Nova had highlander rules so it hamstrung eldar spam options and no there were msu units not only scouts but tacts in rhino from both detachments .. If it would be itc event demon's or eldar would win ..
weeman just stop trolling plus epic dice tosser like you would win anyhow . Explain why you didn't participate ??
Grubass wrote: Nova raA highlander rules so it hamstrung eldar spam options ..options and no there were msu units not only scouts but tacts in rhino from both detachments .. If it would be itc event demon's or eldar would win ..
weeman just stop trolling plus epic dice tosser like you would win anyhow anyhow. Explain why you didn't participate ??
Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.
Ghazkuul wrote: Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.
That's basically what is happening. Unfortunately casual players aren't so lucky...they have to be their own "bad cop" to keep out OP armies.
The absolute best Player as far as sportsmanship and humor/fun in my area is an Eldar Player and he is without a doubt the BEST player to play against. He will specifically tailor his list to fight you, and by that I mean he won't bring Cheese ever and will play some of hte worst units in the codex to make it a fun game. If you bring some major cheese he might pull out some Scat bikes, but otherwise they are 1/3 Heavy weapon bikers.
We also have 1-2 annoying little ***** that play Eldar and actually insult players who won't play them, "What are you scared your going to get beaten?" "Grow some balls and fight me". They have started showing up less frequently because they will literally sit and watch 8-12 other people play, sometimes with another person in the room who wants to play but refuses to play against them.
My point is, if you play the "bad Cop" card long enough they will either go away or they will stop being WAACTFG Eldar players Either way you don't have to waste your time losing a game from Turn 1.
There are worse lists then OP eldar lists but that doesn't make OP eldar lists more fun to play against. Also for reasons I don't understand most tournaments rig their game with "balancing" restrictions that favour one one type of horrible list over other horrible lists. Nova's just seems to like this cheese more then the other cheese.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.
This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.
This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.
so your saying that eldar players have no skill and that this list that won NOVA is a skilled list that shouldn't be nurfed.? You must be crazy
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.
This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.
so your saying that eldar players have no skill and that this list that won NOVA is a skilled list that shouldn't be nurfed.? You must be crazy
No, you are crazy if you think that Eldar are perfectly balanced. The list that won was a cheesy build but nothing of the Eldar levels of stupidity.
Oh no, someone made a Death Star and won, whereas all the poor eldar players using all the broken units they can didn't win :(
Seriously though eldar are pretty damn broken, and I've been playing guardian heavy Footdar for about 6 years. I honestly don't blame any tournament nerfing Eldar into the ground if they think it's necessary
Dman137 wrote: You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken
You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.
Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.
Lets look at the guns first: Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24") Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less. To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.
Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:
A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is BS3, T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds. Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are BS4, T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.
So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, more accurate than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.
Now lets compare points.
A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points. An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.
So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.
The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).
So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?
Dman137 wrote: You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken
You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.
Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.
Lets look at the guns first:
Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24")
Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less.
To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.
Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:
A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds.
Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.
So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.
Now lets compare points.
A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points.
An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.
So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.
The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).
So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?
The man has a point. Eldar Jetbikes are just too darn cheap to not be considered broken.
People would bitch pretty hard if for 13 pts more all tactical marines got relentless, heavy bolters, 12" moves, and could ignore terrain, and that STILL wouldn't be as bad as scatbikes.
That is supposed list he brought I might be wrong since I found it on bols.
Need a fix of this? Remove invisibility would solve lots of issues
Sammael
– DA Chaplain on bike (Fearless – Hatred)
– RW Command Squad on Bikes (Ravenwing Banner) – Apothecary
– DA Scouts
– DA Tacs in Rhino
– Wolf Guard Battle Leader on ThunderWolf Mount (Thunderhammer – Stormshield – Runic Armor)
– 3x Iron Priest on ThunderWolf Mount
– Blood Claws in Rhino
– Grey Hunters in Rhino
– 3x Biker Librarians (Conclave)
– Rune Priest Biker
Dman137 wrote: did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
I'm not saying that this list isn't a fine example of tournament-grade cheese. What I am saying is that without house rules Eldar would have won NOVA, and most every other tournament since their new codex dropped.
Also, are you seriously saying that this list "plays it self"? What, sitting back in a corner with Scatter Lasers is the pinnacle of tactical genius?
master of ordinance wrote:
Dman137 wrote: This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game
Scouts in cover going to ground are doing almost nothing in the entire game and as a result are not pulling their weight (points).
WAAC player? Pot, the kettle just called....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dman137 wrote: This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.
This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.
My thoughts exactly. Dman137 is not exactly the world's best judge of "WAAC" or "TFG" players, as has been repeatedly proven.
krodarklorr wrote:
Dman137 wrote: If people want to nerf eldar, this list is a example of other things that need to be nerffed.
It's just an example of how broken Allies are when exploited.
That doesn't change the fact that Eldar without allies are the most broken codex currently.
Solo 2016!
This is also an example of why I like the ITC ruleset: 2+ re-rollable is changed to a 2+/4+, and Invisibility reduces enemy units' shooting to BS1.
chaosmarauder wrote:Could we maybe just limit the number of IC allowed to be in a unit at once? 3?
Then we can leave the eldar nerfs as is and still allow lots of allies?
I like the spirit of that idea, but the problem is in the nature of ICs. How do you account for the fact that two (or more) ICs can hold hands to become a single unit?
I think that you should only be able to pull from up to two sources (i.e. codexes, supplements, formations) for your army. That would prevent the NOVA winning list from happening, for example.
Dman137 wrote: You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken
You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.
Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.
Lets look at the guns first:
Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24")
Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less.
To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.
Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:
A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds.
Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.
So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.
Now lets compare points.
A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points.
An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.
So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.
The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).
So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?
The man has a point. Eldar Jetbikes are just too darn cheap to not be considered broken.
People would bitch pretty hard if for 13 pts more all tactical marines got relentless, heavy bolters, 12" moves, and could ignore terrain, and that STILL wouldn't be as bad as scatbikes.
I will back this too. I would rather face those 13 point HB relentless Marines than Eldar Scatspam.
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
People aren't ok with it really, I've actively refused to play a game against a very similar list in real life (with BA's an White Scars instead of a Conclave and Dark Angels). It's an egregious abuse of the allies/Battle-Brothers rules that people very much do have a problem with, and a fluff abortion to boot.
However, it does take three different armies to achieve this level of ridiculousness, these deathstars don't work at the level they need when you're only taking units from one army. Meanwhile, Eldar can match that without needing allies shennanigans.
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
People aren't ok with it really, I've actively refused to play a game against a very similar list in real life (with BA's an White Scars instead of a Conclave and Dark Angels). It's an egregious abuse of the allies/Battle-Brothers rules that people very much do have a problem with, and a fluff abortion to boot.
However, it does take three different armies to achieve this level of ridiculousness, these deathstars don't work at the level they need when you're only taking units from one army. Meanwhile, Eldar can match that without needing allies shennanigans.
Yet again, Vaktathi nails it.
Dman, give up. Eldar are broken. They are single-handedly the most broken standalone codex in the game currently. Does allowing allies to that extent give other armies a way to fight back? Yes. Does that mean we should have that in the game? No. Especially when those ally shenanigans only benefit, well, the Imperium armies.
Chalk it up to "40k is a terribly designed game" and be done with it.
I think dmans issue is that he has a bruised ego and cant fathom the concept that his win record can be chalked up more to the army hes playing than the way hes playing. Gotta be the best pokemon master and all that jazz, yknow?
Is dperson serious? Does he really think that list is OP? Eyes closed beaten. Now those cheesy eldar? I think they should either be nerfed HARD!( like.. can hit the wide side of a barn hard) or just get rid of the eldar codex altogether. It would honestly clear out 40k of those waac players.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think dmans issue is that he has a bruised ego and cant fathom the concept that his win record can be chalked up more to the army hes playing than the way hes playing. Gotta be the best pokemon master and all that jazz, yknow?
I don't see how anyone can play 40k with the mindset where they want to win but so it through skill. 40k has become less and less about skill, and more about how big your....uhh.... pocketbook is.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is; Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves 3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each. 6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary Chaplain on bike 3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
Heresy! Wolves working with dark angels?!
The list makes me want to vomit too...
But I will say Eldar have alot of "crap" that makes them not fun to play againest ( Wraithguard with D flamers for one)
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Is dperson serious? Does he really think that list is OP? Eyes closed beaten. Now those cheesy eldar? I think they should either be nerfed HARD!( like.. can hit the wide side of a barn hard) or just get rid of the eldar codex altogether. It would honestly clear out 40k of those waac players.
Well....no.
We'd still have Blood Angels/Skitarii taxi service, Skyhammer and Gladius, Grav in general, ext....
WAAC players would gravitate to the next best thing. Right now, it just happens to be Eldar.
Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
Dman137 wrote: Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
You agree that Eldar are OP?
When did this happen?
Well now that you have made this consensus I can go ahead and tell you that people have ALREADY been aware of the brokenness of the ally matrix and the IoM battle brother bologna.
We are WELL aware of the broken combos that can come around from the MtG style nitpicking and min-maxing that have come from it.
Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
Dman137 wrote: Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
Yeah....
No....
I don't doubt Tau will be overdone, because GW. But you're sitting here complaining that people can't say anything about Eldar, because other armies are OP. The only other things that stand close to Eldar (in a non-house ruled environment) are cheese filled biscuits consisting of Admech War Convocations, Imperial Knights, Gladius/Skyhammer, and Daemons with 2++ rerollable saves. Yes, because that sounds balanced, and playable for all the other armies out there.
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.?
Space marines with free transports is balanced.?
Imperial knights in 40k balanced.?
Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels Space Marines Cult Mechanicus Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.? Space marines with free transports is balanced.? Imperial knights in 40k balanced.? Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
Cult mech on it's own, yes. Their formations and ally options, no. Free Transports is dumb, but at worst they could get free Razorbacks and some Drop pods. Rerolling a cover save is nothing because it requires them to jink, and it's a cover save. CC and a ton of stuff in game easily ignore cover. Imperial Knights have never been balanced, but gotta sell models.
Dman137 wrote:Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.?
Space marines with free transports is balanced.?
Imperial knights in 40k balanced.?
Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
Cult mech on it's own, yes. Their formations and ally options, no.
Free Transports is dumb, but at worst they could get free Razorbacks and some Drop pods.
Rerolling a cover save is nothing because it requires them to jink, and it's a cover save. CC and a ton of stuff in game easily ignore cover.
Imperial Knights have never been balanced, but gotta sell models.
Belive it or not, I think that the War Convocation as a stand-alone is balanced. If forces a lot of otherwise sub-optimal choices on the army, and some of those relics and upgrades aren't worth being free.
Free Transports wins tournaments, and is probably the most powerful single gimmick in the game.
If you have trouble ignoring a cover save, I don't know what to tell you.
Imperial Knights are only really annoying if taken in multiples. Standing alone, they're fine. Their firepower is compensated by their lack of durability for a superheavy.
No, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese. But they are the most concentrated and refined, and therefore other armies have to mix their cheeses to approach or beat them, and not every army has as strong as texture. This metaphor is making me hungry...
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
2nd most efficient, then? With the first being in C: Necrons?
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
2nd most efficient, then? With the first being in C: Necrons?
I'd still say Windriders are more efficient. Tomb Blades can't be spammed in any amount like Scatterbikes, and can never have objective secured, can't assault move, and aren't as fast. Sure, they're tougher, but still. Scatterbikes have a lot more going for them as far as overall usage.
Could make a case for 3rd behind Wraiths but really Wraiths only shine when taken in a Canoptek Harvest so you need a 120 point tax and even then you have to conga line them back to the Spyder for RP.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
The fact that you can't spam them means you have to purchase more units to run them which means that they are less efficient on an army-wide level than windriders are.
So yes Scatbikes are still the most efficient unit in the game.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
hold on while I go check my codex....yep no, Green tide does not include a Void shield.
Im sure some insane tourny list includes one for purposes of abusing the rules but thats not how I play.
and yeah anything can be spammed. And I can say I want to take 1000 orks boyz free because reasons/house rules.
If you want to play semantics please don't use me as your opponent because I don't care to fence with words when my intent was perfectly clear.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
Does Nova ever publish all the lists, or at least the top X lists, on their site? I feel like that's something more tournaments should do, is publish lists so others can do some analysis.
I'd rather play against any eldar list under ITC rules than ever play against a deathstar like this that literally can't be wounded under NOVA rules because they ruled out anything that can hurt it.
Tinkrr wrote:Does Nova ever publish all the lists, or at least the top X lists, on their site? I feel like that's something more tournaments should do, is publish lists so others can do some analysis.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
hold on while I go check my codex....yep no, Green tide does not include a Void shield.
Im sure some insane tourny list includes one for purposes of abusing the rules but thats not how I play.
and yeah anything can be spammed. And I can say I want to take 1000 orks boyz free because reasons/house rules.
If you want to play semantics please don't use me as your opponent because I don't care to fence with words when my intent was perfectly clear.
Alright, you can go on ignore then. You make a statement that something more optimal beats your unoptimal thing, but refuse to listen to why your unoptimal thing is bad when the options to optimize it exist. You deserve what you get.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Nailed it here. People who play Codex: Scatbikers and D-weapons have the choice of winning disgracefully or being mocked for losing with a list that truly can "Take All Comers". Fortunately, not everyone plays Eldar in that fashion. The competitive scene just happens to be full of them because they're the easiest road to winning.
Sheit27 wrote:I'd rather play against any eldar list under ITC rules than ever play against a deathstar like this that literally can't be wounded under NOVA rules because they ruled out anything that can hurt it.
The genius of that list is twofold:
1. It spends plenty on non-deathstar units to score objectives well.
2. The deathstar itself is mobile enough and has enough bodies to pull of a gigantic multi-assault on the opponent (which is what ended up happening at the top table).
It also doesn't hurt that you can hit it and can't hurt it effectively with any weapon in the game. I agree with you in that I still wouldn't play it, even under ITC rules. I'd rather face a War Convocation with Blood Angels taxi service, and that says a lot.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Nailed it here. People who play Codex: Scatbikers and D-weapons have the choice of winning disgracefully or being mocked for losing with a list that truly can "Take All Comers". Fortunately, not everyone plays Eldar in that fashion. The competitive scene just happens to be full of them because they're the easiest road to winning.
Yeah, the #2, 3 and 6 placing lists at the NOVA Open were Eldar jetbike spam armies of various sorts. Warlock Conclaves and min sized triple scatterlaser Windriders galore.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
Its ironic that we are sitting here, discussing how a list can win tournaments. So much for L2P. The sooner we accept 40k is a noskill armylist building "game", the sooner we can move on to a game which requires actual skill, like warmahordes and infinity
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I wish eldar players would stop with the space marine strawman. You currently are far more hated than them, not because of any spez muhrenz, but because for 7 editions, 25 years in a row, you've been the #1 most overpowered codex, gathering the cheesiest, most WAAC players, making up a playerbase of the most obnoxious TFGs.
With the current codex, I think everyone would agree that any eldar player that can lose with it is plain dumb. There is no excuse you can come out with, to lose playing with eldar.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
Ghazkuul wrote: Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.
That's basically what is happening. Unfortunately casual players aren't so lucky...they have to be their own "bad cop" to keep out OP armies.
The absolute best Player as far as sportsmanship and humor/fun in my area is an Eldar Player and he is without a doubt the BEST player to play against. He will specifically tailor his list to fight you, and by that I mean he won't bring Cheese ever and will play some of hte worst units in the codex to make it a fun game. If you bring some major cheese he might pull out some Scat bikes, but otherwise they are 1/3 Heavy weapon bikers.
That's the kind of tabletop gamer I want to be. Pleasant attitude, plays games like the objective is for both sides to have fun.
Sadly, I still have significant traces of power gamer in me that look at things like the 2011 "Uriah-bomb" and giggle with glee.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
Also because its an Imperial army and frankly from my experience on here and stores around the US if its an Imperial army then it "cant be" overpowered.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
40k has skill?
*Yawn*
Go back to the warmahordes section, hope it's not too hard to find, it is tiny after all.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
This is one of those complaints about the Eldar codex that makes absolutely no sense to me. Every codex should have every unit as a viable option. That the Eldar codex is close to this is not a bad thing in any way. To complain about that is to succumb to irrational envy. The problem is that other codexes lack internal balance. If the Eldar codex had a bunch of crap units that wouldn't fix the other units in the other codexes. Complaints about stuff being OP I get and calls for them to be brought back in line make total sense. They have too many fieldable (not OP, just fieldable) units as a complaint though.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
40k has skill?
Yep it sure does!
Not that Id expect you to know though, its a common misconception that even many veteran players of the game seem to ignore sometimes.
Plus you seem to be new around here, so I am assuming your new to the hobby as well too so I understand the confusion.
Of course Id be an idiot if I just told you L2P ,and forget about it. You have to design your strategy at the list building stage and then practice with it...alot.
Also learning your armies rules by memory, and basics like terrain, tank shocking, multi-charging etc can give you more time to think of tactics mid-game instead of making sure that your following the rules correctly and constantly referencing the rulebook.
kburn wrote: Its ironic that we are sitting here, discussing how a list can win tournaments. So much for L2P. The sooner we accept 40k is a noskill armylist building "game", the sooner we can move on to a game which requires actual skill, like warmahordes and infinity
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I wish eldar players would stop with the space marine strawman. You currently are far more hated than them, not because of any spez muhrenz, but because for 7 editions, 25 years in a row, you've been the #1 most overpowered codex, gathering the cheesiest, most WAAC players, making up a playerbase of the most obnoxious TFGs.
With the current codex, I think everyone would agree that any eldar player that can lose with it is plain dumb. There is no excuse you can come out with, to lose playing with eldar.
Or the Eldar player is a decent guy who deliberately doesn't use the best available stuff to be sporting. Are you saying that it is stupid to be sporting or that every single thing in the Eldar codex is so powerful that is impossible to make a list bad enough to lose unless you are stupid.
Some do dislike Eldar for their fluff/appearance/etc. Just because some are that way doesn't mean all are and conversely just because some aren't doesn't mean all aren't. There is something about Eldar beyond the quality of codexes makes some players lose any sense of reasonableness in their dislike and it was there long before 25 years of supposed brokenness. (The 25 years thing is a bit of hyperbole I think).
I wonder if Warmachine forums have characters there too, who are like: "Warmachine has no skill! Play chess!"
The draw of 40k is aesthetics and goofy emergent storytelling, not high-level tournament play. 40k has Fish of Fury and Leafblowers and rerollable 2+ hijinks, not Grandmasters.
The competitive history of this game is essentially one massive red flag telling you not to take it too seriously.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
This is one of those complaints about the Eldar codex that makes absolutely no sense to me. Every codex should have every unit as a viable option. That the Eldar codex is close to this is not a bad thing in any way. To complain about that is to succumb to irrational envy. The problem is that other codexes lack internal balance. If the Eldar codex had a bunch of crap units that wouldn't fix the other units in the other codexes. Complaints about stuff being OP I get and calls for them to be brought back in line make total sense. They have too many fieldable (not OP, just fieldable) units as a complaint though.
You missed the entire point I was trying to make. Let me state it another way. When your codex has nothing BAD in it it makes you TFG when you TAKE one of the most OP things in your codex. Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
Ghazkuul wrote: Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
I'd like to see a "when cheese fails" 40k show where scatterbike spammers and the like get what's coming to them. It would be do a lot to lighten the mood around here
Ghazkuul wrote: Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
I'd like to see a "when cheese fails" 40k show where scatterbike spammers and the like get what's coming to them. It would be do a lot to lighten the mood around here
I still remember the old meme with the guy sitting on a swing set facepalming that said:
Brought 6 Helldrakes... still lost.( or something along those lines)
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
Dozer Blades wrote: Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
Maybe one of those was the same player that "cheated" against Dman137 at Adepticon.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
This is one of those complaints about the Eldar codex that makes absolutely no sense to me. Every codex should have every unit as a viable option. That the Eldar codex is close to this is not a bad thing in any way. To complain about that is to succumb to irrational envy. The problem is that other codexes lack internal balance. If the Eldar codex had a bunch of crap units that wouldn't fix the other units in the other codexes. Complaints about stuff being OP I get and calls for them to be brought back in line make total sense. They have too many fieldable (not OP, just fieldable) units as a complaint though.
You missed the entire point I was trying to make. Let me state it another way. When your codex has nothing BAD in it it makes you TFG when you TAKE one of the most OP things in your codex. Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
LOL! I sure did miss the point about as badly as possible. Can't argue with what you say here.
Not that Id expect you to know though, its a common misconception that even many veteran players of the game seem to ignore sometimes.
Plus you seem to be new around here, so I am assuming your new to the hobby as well too so I understand the confusion.
Of course Id be an idiot if I just told you L2P ,and forget about it. You have to design your strategy at the list building stage and then practice with it...alot.
Also learning your armies rules by memory, and basics like terrain, tank shocking, multi-charging etc can give you more time to think of tactics mid-game instead of making sure that your following the rules correctly and constantly referencing the rulebook.
I've been around since 2nd. I remember the days of vortex grenades, IW oblits+basilisk, siren princes, rhino rush, starcannon spam, the last good nid codex, holofield spam, etc. That's how I know eldar has been the absolute #1 for 7 editions, 25 years straight.
Maybe in the past, when balance was not as skewed, skill might have played a part. I those days, people still talked about flanks, deployment order, cover and other things in the tactics forum. Even then, armylists played the most important role in a win, and the rest was just minor details.
These days, the only skill required in 40k is list building. All you need to do is look at your list and see if it'll be able to defeat scatbikes and wraiths. The match was over the moment you decided on your list. The tactics forums are full of nothing but armylists and unit comparisons. There is nothing relating to movement, deployments, flanks, distance, cover, etc. There is no glory in winning a 40k tournament. You had the most meta list, that's all.
Yoyoyo wrote: I wonder if Warmachine forums have characters there too, who are like: "Warmachine has no skill! Play chess!"
The draw of 40k is aesthetics and goofy emergent storytelling, not high-level tournament play. 40k has Fish of Fury and Leafblowers and rerollable 2+ hijinks, not Grandmasters.
The competitive history of this game is essentially one massive red flag telling you not to take it too seriously.
To answer your question, because it is a very balanced and tactical game, no, there is no one who says that.
I actually agree with you. Many here do not. They think their min-max eldar army won them games purely based on skill, and nothing but skill, when in reality, army list decides the match 99.95% of the time.
I actually like the 40k aesthetic, miniature detail and fluff of 40k, and that's all of my involvement in it. The game itself is unbalanced and terrible, which is why I hope it goes the way of AoS. It really is a silly game which tries to take itself too seriously.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
40k has skill?
Yep it sure does!
Not that Id expect you to know though, its a common misconception that even many veteran players of the game seem to ignore sometimes.
Plus you seem to be new around here, so I am assuming your new to the hobby as well too so I understand the confusion.
Of course Id be an idiot if I just told you L2P ,and forget about it. You have to design your strategy at the list building stage and then practice with it...alot.
Also learning your armies rules by memory, and basics like terrain, tank shocking, multi-charging etc can give you more time to think of tactics mid-game instead of making sure that your following the rules correctly and constantly referencing the rulebook.
Skill isn't irrelevant, but 40k is definitely a game where you can essentially win in the "list building phase" and come to the table where an opponent, no matter how clever and brilliant, simply cannot defeat you, or is so reliant on perfect dice rolling as to remove the skill component's importance.
If you're running a "TAC" mechanized IG list for example, and run up against a Necron Decurion with gobs of Wraiths, or a "TAC" undivided CSM list running up against a triple-detachment TWC/Biker blob, you simply will not have the capability to break the units you need to break, and even if you greatly deplete them they're so powerful that they can still probably do their job effectively.
Vaktathi wrote: Skill isn't irrelevant, but 40k is definitely a game where you can essentially win in the "list building phase" and come to the table where an opponent, no matter how clever and brilliant, simply cannot defeat you, or is so reliant on perfect dice rolling as to remove the skill component's importance.
If you're running a "TAC" mechanized IG list for example, and run up against a Necron Decurion with gobs of Wraiths, or a "TAC" undivided CSM list running up against a triple-detachment TWC/Biker blob, you simply will not have the capability to break the units you need to break, and even if you greatly deplete them they're so powerful that they can still probably do their job effectively.
Nails it once again.
You can say 40k has as much skillz as my level 47 Dragonborn, that doesn't mean anything. Having skill and balanced armies between two people is one thing. Having skill and an OP or UP codex essentially makes you unbeatable, or digs your own grave.
Heck, most of the time it doesn't even matter. I remember when my brother played WoW with me, and ran a Ret pally. We used to joke on him because he could smash his face into the keyboard to do damage. Eldar are essentially the ret pallies of 40k.
I wonder if Warmachine forums have characters there too, who are like: "Warmachine has no skill! Play chess!"
I go to the Warmachine forums on privateer presses site. They don't. I can't comment on other forums, or the GW forums, but the companies website usually has people wishing for certain models. Overall they love PP and what they've done to the game. The recent releases and errata (do GW players know what an errata means?) bought them a lot of good will.
The worse you'll get is the Khador forums wondering why they don't have a Man-O-War UA yet.
The cygnar and cryx forums, after their strongest options were nerfed, were still not filled with hatred or much complaining. There was more of a sense of "now what?" and "this is 100% good for the game".
Compared to people here, who frankly don't know anything about warmachine but still feel the need to make up absurd examples on why its a bad game...it makes the playerbase here seem childish.
So far I've heard;
Warmachine is more unbalanced than 40k Warmachine has impenetrable forests that cover 2/3's of the board (only possible with bradigus if he somehow manages to kill 40 guys with his 8 models with 1 shot weapons. Also, no forests are impenetrable)
Warmachine has casters that can literally fly across the board (Max range for most guys is in the 20 range if they are melee, gun users like caine2 can go slightly further but still not too much higher. Usually 1 maybe 2 models in the entire list can do this)
Warmachine has casters that can bring their entire army to armor 30 for the entire game (A flat out lie. I think, maybe, 1 model in the entire game can do this for feat turn and that it is it).
You can't build a jack list in cryx, and this is what I really want to play (One of the best cryx player runs a jack list with two separate casters).
The draw of 40k is aesthetics and goofy emergent storytelling, not high-level tournament play. 40k has Fish of Fury and Leafblowers and rerollable 2+ hijinks, not Grandmasters.
40k has amazing aesthetics (which other companies are starting to compete with, like infinity. Its a smaller scale but dem models) and a great setting. The game does not have emergent storytelling, goofy or great.
Its not goofy when my chaos champion, from alpha legion, challenges your leader and gets murdered because hey, chaos gotta chaos. It's not goofy story telling when some codexes need to take allies (that in some cases break the fluff) to compete, despite the fluff making no sense.
Games like necromunda, gorka morka, and other such specialist games have amazing emergent story telling. When your leader gets into an epic duel with their heavy that lasts two turns before capturing the other guy, and now that team must decide to risk a rescue mission, pay a ransom, or let him be sold off into slavery, THAT is emergent storytelling. It's storytelling that happens from almost nothing but dice rolls, and its a blast to play. 40k has none of that, despite being a narrative game. 40k is entirely a pay to win model of gaming.
If you mean epic things can happen in 40k, every game has that. If anything, given the size of 40k, epic things are less likely to happen unless you build a deathstar and just go rampaging across the board, but that's not fun for your opponent.
The competitive history of this game is essentially one massive red flag telling you not to take it too seriously.
The competitive history of this game isn't terrible from 3rd-5th. Most of the factions could compete (with maybe 3-4 being too weak, or sisters just never making an appearance) and there were usually a few rules that were a bit out of whack, but could have been fixed with an errata or edition change but for some reason never were. Back in those days, list building was still a big deal (it is in most wargames, though in 40k its obviously more important) but not as much as now. You could go to a tactics forum and hear about deployment, flanking, which targets are important to you depending on your lists, leapfrogging back with transports, surrounding transports when they blow up. In 6th, it became list building that was most of the game, with deployment being important to a degree (mainly because DS). Tactics were pretty distant...they usually involved hugging cover and target importance (which didn't vary...any codex you were afraid of has a few OP units, you kill those or ignore them if they can't be killed and try to win anyway).
7th has gotten even worse. Figuring out how to optimize allies and formations are the name of the game now, with deployment being something you worry about only against DS spam armies (which aren't good). Most of the good weapons have so much range, many things are so tough or so fast, that deployment isn't a big deal. When a scatter bike can move over most things, move 12", and shoot 36", then scoot back, where are you going to move? You can't even use cover, the weapon nearly always allows an armor save.
But yeah, emergent storytelling happens from my DASW team up.
The difference between warmahorde and w40k is that if WMH was like w40k, then you would have one, maybe two factions able to do what youd described as unbalanced and everyone else sucking. Only that is not the case.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Dman, we do not need to look up the definition of a WAAC player because you are here and from the look of your lists you are most definitely a WAAC player.
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
A. You mentioned "Every event" which, in regards to 40k, means nothing.
B. I do play this game (well, taking some time off), and consider myself a pretty good player.
C. Go ahead and borrow some Flyrants and Mawlocs and Lictors, let's see how you do.
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
A. You mentioned "Every event" which, in regards to 40k, means nothing.
B. I do play this game (well, taking some time off), and consider myself a pretty good player.
C. Go ahead and borrow some Flyrants and Mawlocs and Lictors, let's see how you do.
He wont. It would mean giving up hir precious scatbike and wraithbrigade crutches.
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
I'm guessing by 'WAAC players' you simply mean competitive players who take good lists to tournaments, in which case of course tournaments are going to be won by people like that. They're the kind of people who play at tournaments most often. Why would you go to a big event and not take a strong list if you're actually going to attempt to win? I don't think you understand what WAAC means, because it certainly isn't people who simply take strong lists to tournaments.
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
I'm guessing by 'WAAC players' you simply mean competitive players who take good lists to tournaments, in which case of course tournaments are going to be won by people like that. They're the kind of people who play at tournaments most often. Why would you go to a big event and not take a strong list if you're actually going to attempt to win? I don't think you understand what WAAC means, because it certainly isn't people who simply take strong lists to tournaments.
so your saying that the person who took this list isn't a WAAC player.? You must be joking
Why are they? It's not like they took it to a beginners tournament or a casual league. They took a strong list to a big event where most people will take strong lists. That seems more common sense than WAAC.
so your saying that the person who took this list isn't a WAAC player.? You must be joking
We don't have enough evidence to state if he's a WAAC player or not. If he took lists like this to a regular FLGS and expected to always be able to get a game with a list like that, then we could make that assumption. As of now, we can't say that.
so your saying that the person who took this list isn't a WAAC player.? You must be joking
We don't have enough evidence to state if he's a WAAC player or not. If he took lists like this to a regular FLGS and expected to always be able to get a game with a list like that, then we could make that assumption. As of now, we can't say that.
so let me get this straight you say he's not a WAAC because you don't no if he brings it to other softer events but I bring my eldar to a competitive event and I'm labeled as a WAAC.? Hmm yet sounds like a bunch of goobs on here
so your saying that the person who took this list isn't a WAAC player.? You must be joking
We don't have enough evidence to state if he's a WAAC player or not. If he took lists like this to a regular FLGS and expected to always be able to get a game with a list like that, then we could make that assumption. As of now, we can't say that.
so let me get this straight you say he's not a WAAC because you don't no if he brings it to other softer events but I bring my eldar to a competitive event and I'm labeled as a WAAC.? Hmm yet sounds like a bunch of goobs on here
No, you are WAAC because of numerous reasons. Simply stating someone is WAAC because they take a cheese-filled list to a GT is preposterous.
You, on the other-hand, complain that 1 in 3 Heavy weapons on Scatterbikes makes them useless, and you constantly tell people to "L2P" when you're bringing Scatterbikes and Wraithknights to casual games.
Dman137 wrote: so your saying that the person who took this list isn't a WAAC player.? You must be joking
WAAC isn't just the list.
There's the attitude a the table too, with pivot-for-advantage on vehicles, time spent pre--measuring, arguing about rules at every opportunity, etc.
A list does not make a WAAC player.
This list, what WAAC list includes Lictors?
And, WAAC are working towards tournament top-spots, or what is the point of it all?
Dman, the reason that you are labelled WAAC is because you constantly insist that Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade are not OP despite all the evidence contrary and then accuse others of being noobs who need to L2P because they cant beat you, despite having nothing that comes even close to the power of your units.
You then also insist that increasing the Wraithknight to even 400 points - where as it should be at least 550 - and taking only 1 in 3 heave weapons on your bikes - when in all honesty 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 would be fair - are stupid sugestions from butthurt players and will nerf these units too much to be playable.
You also regularly (from what you have written) take Scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade too casual games.
WAAC stands for win at all costs, and implies the player will literally do ANYTHING to win, as winning is their only goal.
This could mean that they brought a super-hard core list to play a casual match against an unsuspecting player or it could go so far as to fake dice rolls and bring extra points change the rules.
To be WAAC you have to be someone who is willing to cheat in order to win as winning is the only thing that matters to them.
Dman is not WAAC in this sense. He is disillusioned with reality, and probably a troll, but unless he is deliberately forcing his opponent to play against him with an uber cheese list unprepared he's not really displaying WAAC behavior. Even then that's more of being a douche as he isn't cheating or lying in order to win.
master of ordinance wrote: Dman, the reason that you are labelled WAAC is because you constantly insist that Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade are not OP despite all the evidence contrary and then accuse others of being noobs who need to L2P because they cant beat you, despite having nothing that comes even close to the power of your units.
You then also insist that increasing the Wraithknight to even 400 points - where as it should be at least 550 - and taking only 1 in 3 heave weapons on your bikes - when in all honesty 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 would be fair - are stupid sugestions from butthurt players and will nerf these units too much to be playable.
You also regularly (from what you have written) take Scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade too casual games.
master of ordinance wrote: Dman, the reason that you are labelled WAAC is because you constantly insist that Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade are not OP despite all the evidence contrary and then accuse others of being noobs who need to L2P because they cant beat you, despite having nothing that comes even close to the power of your units.
You then also insist that increasing the Wraithknight to even 400 points - where as it should be at least 550 - and taking only 1 in 3 heave weapons on your bikes - when in all honesty 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 would be fair - are stupid sugestions from butthurt players and will nerf these units too much to be playable.
You also regularly (from what you have written) take Scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade too casual games.
a person who thinks that theyre funny or cool but really theyre just awkward and weird
Lifted from Urban Dictionary
Dman, the winner of NOVA might have been using a deathstar, but it was in a format where deathstars shine. Furthermore, the winner had to play against equally tough lists so there is an element of skill.
Eldar also took 2nd/3rd using a Scatterbike platform. Most likely Wraithknights had they been allowed.
Dman137 wrote: so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing
Lawlz.
Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.
Eldar players do the following:
1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you
Point to another unit in the Tyranid codex that is useable at a high-end competitive event. I'm genuinely curious as to what you would say.
master of ordinance wrote:Dman, the reason that you are labelled WAAC is because you constantly insist that Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade are not OP despite all the evidence contrary and then accuse others of being noobs who need to L2P because they cant beat you, despite having nothing that comes even close to the power of your units.
You then also insist that increasing the Wraithknight to even 400 points - where as it should be at least 550 - and taking only 1 in 3 heave weapons on your bikes - when in all honesty 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 would be fair - are stupid sugestions from butthurt players and will nerf these units too much to be playable.
You also regularly (from what you have written) take Scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade too casual games.
You ARE a WAAC player.
Quoted and Exalted for truth.
"WAAC" isn't a type of list, it's an attitude. From what you have posted in this thread and others, Dman137, you fit both that definition as well as a certain other three-letter acronym.
Ooh ooh, the Mucolid! Lots of lists take them, must be pretty OP right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?
Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.
Frozocrone wrote: Ooh ooh, the Mucolid! Lots of lists take them, must be pretty OP right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?
Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.
A little something I came up with for my friends when we were discussing NOVA:
Six Flying Hive Tyrants: 1440 points. One unit of Mucolid Spores: 45 points. The look on an Eldar cheesemonger's face when your Mawloc eats a unit of their precious Scatbikers: Priceless. Some things in Warhammer 40,000 you just can't kill. For everything else, there's Mawlocs.
master of ordinance wrote: Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?
Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.
isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.
on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.
on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.
No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.
on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.
No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.
Uh, CSM are worse. Tyranids are bad, definitely. CSM are worse....
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.
on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.
No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.
Uh, CSM are worse. Tyranids are bad, definitely. CSM are worse....
Sorry but not even close. Here is why:
Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.
I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.
And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.
Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.
I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.
And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.
Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.
I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.
Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.
I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.
And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.
Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.
I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.
I do not believe you in the slightest. Especially the part where you are beating Eldar with Trygons and Swarmlord. If you do, good for you. But you don't unless your opponents are on the 200 storm guardian footslogging plan.
Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.
I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.
And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.
Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.
I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.
I do not believe you in the slightest. Especially the part where you are beating Eldar with Trygons and Swarmlord. If you do, good for you. But you don't unless your opponents are on the 200 storm guardian footslogging plan.
Nope, I've beaten MSUs of all Shuricannon bikes (my friend group likes to refrain from using scatter lasers, though I think Shuricannons are worse in some cases), and one of my friends always brings Aspect Shrines with Warp Spyders, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, with the occasional Avatar of Khaine thrown in. In fact, my Swarmlord in one combat killed the Avatar of Khaine and a Wraithlord, and a next turn wiped out all of his Wraithguard.
Choose to believe me if you want, but I've done very well with my "normal" lists of Tyranids, more-so than my girlfriend has with Nurgle marines.
master of ordinance wrote: Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?
Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.
I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.
And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.
Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.
I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.
I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.
I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.
What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.
I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.
What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.
Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.
I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.
What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.
Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.
Again, I'm not saying Tyranids ave a good codex. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying I have dominated with my casual Nids, whereas everyone I know who plays CSM have not.
You've also mentioned all of the things that suck in the nid book, but have failed to mention anything that is decent. Tervigons are good Synapse nodes. And before you say anything, Synapse provides army-wide Fearless, which is very good. They also spawn free models, if even once per game, it's free models. Keep it next to Venomthropes for a 3+/2+ cover save and give it Regen, you're good to go. Tyrannofexes are pretty good, especially with E-grubs or Shreddershard beetles and the Acid Spray. Mawlocs are obviously good. Biovores are stupid good, especially in the formation. Exocrines, while short ranged, have a 6 shot plasma gun, or a large blast plasma cannon without the gets hot. Venomthropes for army-wide 3+/2+ cover, and giving your gaunts a 5+ cover in the open makes them annoying to deal with. Warriors provide a good synapse unit, are difficult to remove if played right, and will shred most other infantry in CC. Devilgaunts are hilarious. Give them Outflank with your Hive Tyrant and laugh. Also works with a Tervigon so you can start spawning an army in their deployment zone. Lictors, while I personally don't like them, have great synergy with units such as Mawlocs and Rippers. The Hive Crone is pretty nice, with it's S8 Vector strike and Template weapon. Then, the new models, the Toxicrene is rather scary, especially when dropped in the new Tyrannocyte.
Call it as you will, Tyranids have a lot more decent units than CSM do. And I reiterate, if you think they're that bad, you are either playing in a waaaaaay too competitive meta (and I feel sorry for you), or you need to reevaluate how you're playing this game.
Dman is the most specialist kind of special we have within the ocmmunity: Hes the kind of special that is so convinced of his own self-superiority that when 95% of the forum is telling him hes wrong, he takes it as a reaffirmation of how correct he is, because only Dman is intelligent enough to see things for what they are. Only Dman is clearsighted and level headed enough to fairly analyze balance. Only Dman knows better, but fear not, because Dman is a kind and loving benefactor, he will lead us unwashed masses of heathens and lepers to a deeper understanding of the game, he will show us the error of our ways and set us on the true path.
Dman, in case there was any doubt in your mind, that post was sarcastic, you've got a lot to learn, stop pretending otherwise.
I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.
What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.
Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.
Again, I'm not saying Tyranids ave a good codex. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying I have dominated with my casual Nids, whereas everyone I know who plays CSM have not.
You've also mentioned all of the things that suck in the nid book, but have failed to mention anything that is decent. Tervigons are good Synapse nodes. And before you say anything, Synapse provides army-wide Fearless, which is very good. They also spawn free models, if even once per game, it's free models. Keep it next to Venomthropes for a 3+/2+ cover save and give it Regen, you're good to go. Tyrannofexes are pretty good, especially with E-grubs or Shreddershard beetles and the Acid Spray. Mawlocs are obviously good. Biovores are stupid good, especially in the formation. Exocrines, while short ranged, have a 6 shot plasma gun, or a large blast plasma cannon without the gets hot. Venomthropes for army-wide 3+/2+ cover, and giving your gaunts a 5+ cover in the open makes them annoying to deal with. Warriors provide a good synapse unit, are difficult to remove if played right, and will shred most other infantry in CC. Devilgaunts are hilarious. Give them Outflank with your Hive Tyrant and laugh. Also works with a Tervigon so you can start spawning an army in their deployment zone. Lictors, while I personally don't like them, have great synergy with units such as Mawlocs and Rippers. The Hive Crone is pretty nice, with it's S8 Vector strike and Template weapon. Then, the new models, the Toxicrene is rather scary, especially when dropped in the new Tyrannocyte.
Call it as you will, Tyranids have a lot more decent units than CSM do. And I reiterate, if you think they're that bad, you are either playing in a waaaaaay too competitive meta (and I feel sorry for you), or you need to reevaluate how you're playing this game.
I did say things that are good about Tyranids, I said "Brainleech" multiple times
Tervigons are very, very, very bad. You pay 195 pts for a naked footslogging MC with a 3+ save. You also take away one of your HQ slots, which means one less flyrant. Then you propose a venomthrope (45) and regeneration (30) that make up for a 270 pts investment and a HQ + elite slot that will get you some durable backfield synapse and a total of 10-15 naked termagants. This is not how good armies are made, bro. If you want to make into Troop you have to pay extra tax of 120 pts minimum for 30 naked termagants that are completely useless, or add 15 devourers on top to make the unit useful (60 pts) and a Hive commander on your flyrant to make they termagant blob actually come in range (15 pts). Overall a 475 point plan to get a one-use-only semi-ranged dakka unit and some backfield synapse. No way, thanks. I'm not even discussing the fact that if the tervigon dies it will kill way more than the termagants it spawned the whole game.
Tyranofexes are good for an all comers list. More so if podded. Only for all comer lists though. There is a reason the only tournament list is pentyrant. Mawlocs are the only other unit that it's good apart from the flyrant. 2 good units out of a whole codex =/= a good codex. Biovores are a mediocre artillery unit, wyverns and thunderfire cannons are on top of the list, biovores are way below that. Exocrine is a MC that could shoot 2 weapons yet it only has one. It is also BS3, medium ranged and the only ap2 shooting in the whole book. And 170 pts for an ap2 pieplate or 3 plasma hits is not a good bargain no matter how you look at it. Warriors are most definitely NOT difficult to remove "if played right" and most definitely NOT beat anything in hth unless you pay 3 times the points fo your target unit, and then it's still arguable. Warriors are the laughingstock of the game for god's sake. Anything Tau, blastmasters, hive guards, powerfists, perfect timing dark reapers, you name it. Heck, 4 krak missiles will kill the venomthrope and then I can drop a str 8 pieplate (or a forgefiend) to collect me some tyranid tears. Lictors do not have synergy with mawlocs as you need to have your lictors on the ground turn one AND within 6" of the enemy and actually have the enemy NOT move their army more than 6" away from the lictors AND have the lictors survive 1-2 turns of shooting and/or hth to maybe roll your 3+ and make a mawloc drop. If that's your idea of synergy, then I am most definitely glad I am not playing in your area. As for the Toxicrene, it was good, became instantly useless when the WK turned into a GC and besides it's the only thing in the whole game that can commit suicide in a single dice roll. Way to go, toxicrene. It is also fun to mention that Toxicrene along with the drop pods are not codex units. If you add them to the comparison is like adding crimson slaughter to the CSM codex and then it's a completely different conversation.
I could see an argument for LAN, tyrranofexes and shrikes being kind of good in semi-competitive games. Anything above that, just no. And Tervigons/warriors are just abysmal, you are losing all credibility if you are including them as "tyranid good units".
As for the advice, my meta is mixed. We do have plenty of Tau, couple of gladius marines, various fluffy marine players with triple land raiders, 1 eldar / iyanden/harlequin player (has 3 complete and different painted armies :O), 2-3 Guard players, 2-3 Tyranids, 1 decurion Necron, a lot of imperial knights etc etc. Glad to see how your "good units" are going to perform here. Maybe YOU should re-evaluate what the game actuall involves rather than me re-evaluating my Tyranid game.
I did say things that are good about Tyranids, I said "Brainleech" multiple times
Tervigons are very, very, very bad. You pay 195 pts for a naked footslogging MC with a 3+ save. You also take away one of your HQ slots, which means one less flyrant. Then you propose a venomthrope (45) and regeneration (30) that make up for a 270 pts investment and a HQ + elite slot that will get you some durable backfield synapse and a total of 10-15 naked termagants. This is not how good armies are made, bro. If you want to make into Troop you have to pay extra tax of 120 pts minimum for 30 naked termagants that are completely useless, or add 15 devourers on top to make the unit useful (60 pts) and a Hive commander on your flyrant to make they termagant blob actually come in range (15 pts). Overall a 475 point plan to get a one-use-only semi-ranged dakka unit and some backfield synapse. No way, thanks. I'm not even discussing the fact that if the tervigon dies it will kill way more than the termagants it spawned the whole game.
Tyranofexes are good for an all comers list. More so if podded. Only for all comer lists though. There is a reason the only tournament list is pentyrant. Mawlocs are the only other unit that it's good apart from the flyrant. 2 good units out of a whole codex =/= a good codex. Biovores are a mediocre artillery unit, wyverns and thunderfire cannons are on top of the list, biovores are way below that. Exocrine is a MC that could shoot 2 weapons yet it only has one. It is also BS3, medium ranged and the only ap2 shooting in the whole book. And 170 pts for an ap2 pieplate or 3 plasma hits is not a good bargain no matter how you look at it. Warriors are most definitely NOT difficult to remove "if played right" and most definitely NOT beat anything in hth unless you pay 3 times the points fo your target unit, and then it's still arguable. Warriors are the laughingstock of the game for god's sake. Anything Tau, blastmasters, hive guards, powerfists, perfect timing dark reapers, you name it. Heck, 4 krak missiles will kill the venomthrope and then I can drop a str 8 pieplate (or a forgefiend) to collect me some tyranid tears. Lictors do not have synergy with mawlocs as you need to have your lictors on the ground turn one AND within 6" of the enemy and actually have the enemy NOT move their army more than 6" away from the lictors AND have the lictors survive 1-2 turns of shooting and/or hth to maybe roll your 3+ and make a mawloc drop. If that's your idea of synergy, then I am most definitely glad I am not playing in your area. As for the Toxicrene, it was good, became instantly useless when the WK turned into a GC and besides it's the only thing in the whole game that can commit suicide in a single dice roll. Way to go, toxicrene. It is also fun to mention that Toxicrene along with the drop pods are not codex units. If you add them to the comparison is like adding crimson slaughter to the CSM codex and then it's a completely different conversation.
I could see an argument for LAN, tyrranofexes and shrikes being kind of good in semi-competitive games. Anything above that, just no. And Tervigons/warriors are just abysmal, you are losing all credibility if you are including them as "tyranid good units".
As for the advice, my meta is mixed. We do have plenty of Tau, couple of gladius marines, various fluffy marine players with triple land raiders, 1 eldar / iyanden/harlequin player (has 3 complete and different painted armies :O), 2-3 Guard players, 2-3 Tyranids, 1 decurion Necron, a lot of imperial knights etc etc. Glad to see how your "good units" are going to perform here. Maybe YOU should re-evaluate what the game actuall involves rather than me re-evaluating my Tyranid game.
*shrug* Stop playing Tyranids then, if you're going to do nothing but complain about them. I won't even bother talking tactics with you, as it's pointless. Your mind is made up. Fact of the matter is, I have people that can vouch for my Tyranids, and I've had a lot of success with them, even against lists that nids struggle against (Tau, I'm looking at you). Do I want them to get a new codex? Of course, I reeeaaally don't like this current codex, especially with the 7.5 ed. power creep.
P.S. Every list I run includes Warriors, and they always do well. Heck, I'll go as far as to say I'll run a Tyranid Prime with them occasionally, and he's taken on things like Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses, and come out on top every time. I also build my list around at least a 30 man unit of Termagaunts. You wanna know what's killed Warp Spyders, Fire Dragons, Talos Pain Engines, shredded Space Marines, and killed a Terminator Chaos Lord in one go? Termagaunts. Wanna know what's killed Terminators in overwatch? Termagaunts.
Also, you lose all credibility if you diss things like Warriors but think Shrikes are okay. Seriously, they're terrible.
Dude, really. Shrikes move 12". They pay less for upgrades (adrenal, flesh hooks, toxin sacs). Again, they move 12". If you play melee warriors and do well but you think shrikes are bad I really can't say anything more. How do you get your warriors into hth EVER? Are people actually walking non-strength 8 low armor melee units into your footslogging warriors? Really, enlighten me, how exactly do you beat Tau with warriors? What list does your opponent play? Do they have a single pathfinder/drone team and a skyray? Because that's all it takes to kill your warriors from 36" away no less. What list do you play? Because there is not a single one army that can deal with tyranid warriors better than Tau can. honestly, without any kind of trolling intention, how do you do it?
Also, I can dig that you could beat chaos lords with a tyranid prime. It is extremely difficult, but I could argue it's doable. Maybe the lord isn't nurgle and riding a bike. Maybe it's not khorne and riding a juggernaught holding a demon axe. Maybe it's a footslogging, non terminator armor chaos lord. So maybe you could kill one. But Ork Warbosses have 2+ armor and str 10. You are just bullshitting big time.
And no thanks, I have no intention to stop playing with my Tyranids. I have quite the fun playing with them and mind you, I only own 3 flyrants and one of them doesn't even have guns, so I am really playing all the colors of the rainbow when it comes to tyranids. I do own every single model multiple of times and I have played with them for the biggest part of the last 4-5 years.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Dude, really. Shrikes move 12". They pay less for upgrades (adrenal, flesh hooks, toxin sacs). Again, they move 12". If you play melee warriors and do well but you think shrikes are bad I really can't say anything more. How do you get your warriors into hth EVER? Are people actually walking non-strength 8 low armor melee units into your footslogging warriors? Really, enlighten me, how exactly do you beat Tau with warriors? What list does your opponent play? Do they have a single pathfinder/drone team and a skyray? Because that's all it takes to kill your warriors from 36" away no less. What list do you play? Because there is not a single one army that can deal with tyranid warriors better than Tau can. honestly, without any kind of trolling intention, how do you do it?
Also, I can dig that you could beat chaos lords with a tyranid prime. It is extremely difficult, but I could argue it's doable. Maybe the lord isn't nurgle and riding a bike. Maybe it's not khorne and riding a juggernaught holding a demon axe. Maybe it's a footslogging, non terminator armor chaos lord. So maybe you could kill one. But Ork Warbosses have 2+ armor and str 10. You are just bullshitting big time.
And no thanks, I have no intention to stop playing with my Tyranids. I have quite the fun playing with them and mind you, I only own 3 flyrants and one of them doesn't even have guns, so I am really playing all the colors of the rainbow when it comes to tyranids. I do own every single model multiple of times and I have played with them for the biggest part of the last 4-5 years.
Yes, Shrikes move 12". If you're going to run a fast melee unit, might as well take Raveners, because they can take mostly the same upgrades and have Fleet built in. Shrikes also die to Bolt guns. Also, my Warriors get into combat because of things like Drop pod lists, Deep Striking Howling Banshees, and of course, Orks and CSM running at me. And yeah, a Chaos Lord on a bike with MoN (how my girlfriend runs him) is easy for my Tyranid Prime. I equip him with Boneswords, so a single 6 and the Chaos Lord is gone. As for the Warboss? Most people don't bring him in Mega Armor. Most people bring him with a bunch of Nobz in a Trukk of Battlewagon, or run him on a bike. Either way, he has a 4+ armor, and the Prime strikes before him, again, only needing a single 6 and he's dead.
And that's not the mindset you need to be in with Tyranids. "Aaak, this army can easily deal with this unit!". Yes, Tau can deal with Warriors. But they can't deal with Warriors when a Flyrant, Mawloc, Trygon, and outflanking Termagaunts are all right in their face. In the meantime, my Biovores eat their infantry alive with sheer volume of wounds. Pathfinders really aren't an issue, as we have plenty of flying templates to deal with them.
Your information is not correct. Raveners cannot take any biomorphs, so no adrenal glands, no flesh hooks, no poison. It is wierd, I agree, but they cannot. Only thing raveners can take is rending claws. They are slightly faster than the shrikes, but then again they suffer from Feed IB with leadership 6. Shrikes are synapse, fearless and Ld 10. Also, flesh hooks. It makes all the difference in the world.
Shrikes do die to boltguns, only they have a lot of wounds to compensate for it. Shrikes die to str 8 most of the time, and every army has it in abundance.
As for the nurgle chaos lord. If you are running boneswords and your girlfriend is running her 12" moving chaos lord without a sigil of corruption into your tyranid prime then she is doing it really really wrong. The chaos lord you are describing is faster than your tyranid prime, it should have no reason whatsoever to run itself in there, it can just ignore your warrior unit and shoot it with autohavocs/forgefiend instead. Or the casual vindicator blast. Ork warbosses in battlewagons can still take 2+ armor. Ork warbosses with 4+ armor in trukks have no place in the game and killing them with your 145 pt Tyranid prime means little to nothing, as the accompanying boyz will slaughter your unit anyways, unless you are bringing 9 warriors where you get to pay 500+ pts in a footslogging unit and orks do actually have lootaz.
Tau will have no problem whatsoever with the list you mentioned. A trygon does nothing until turn 3, outflanking termagants do nothing until turn 2 and then you can just park your Riptides in the flanks and mostly ignore them. In the very last, Tau has interceptor against your termagants. A Mawloc is nice against missilesides only if they spread them to the maximum 2" cheesing (see Broadside - Drone - Broadside - Drone - Broadside, deployment like this) you only get to hit 1 of them, and that's supposing you roll a hit in the first place. A flyrant is a flyrant, one skyray will kill one flyrant or a unit of missilesides will do even without markerlight support. He can save your warriors for turn 2-3 because they are not reaching anything Tau with their 6" movement. Biovores are the only thing that can threaten fire warriors/ drones but then again, skyrays can fire str 8 ap3 no cover shots without even needing LoS from 72" away. Good riddance, biovores.
I really really think your playing group is on the very very soft side. That's not a bad thing in the slightest, it just makes you see good units where they do not exist.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Your information is not correct. Raveners cannot take any biomorphs, so no adrenal glands, no flesh hooks, no poison. It is wierd, I agree, but they cannot. Only thing raveners can take is rending claws. They are slightly faster than the shrikes, but then again they suffer from Feed IB with leadership 6. Shrikes are synapse, fearless and Ld 10. Also, flesh hooks. It makes all the difference in the world.
Shrikes do die to boltguns, only they have a lot of wounds to compensate for it. Shrikes die to str 8 most of the time, and every army has it in abundance.
As for the nurgle chaos lord. If you are running boneswords and your girlfriend is running her 12" moving chaos lord without a sigil of corruption into your tyranid prime then she is doing it really really wrong. The chaos lord you are describing is faster than your tyranid prime, it should have no reason whatsoever to run itself in there, it can just ignore your warrior unit and shoot it with autohavocs/forgefiend instead. Or the casual vindicator blast. Ork warbosses in battlewagons can still take 2+ armor. Ork warbosses with 4+ armor in trukks have no place in the game and killing them with your 145 pt Tyranid prime means little to nothing, as the accompanying boyz will slaughter your unit anyways, unless you are bringing 9 warriors where you get to pay 500+ pts in a footslogging unit and orks do actually have lootaz.
Tau will have no problem whatsoever with the list you mentioned. A trygon does nothing until turn 3, outflanking termagants do nothing until turn 2 and then you can just park your Riptides in the flanks and mostly ignore them. In the very last, Tau has interceptor against your termagants. A Mawloc is nice against missilesides only if they spread them to the maximum 2" cheesing (see Broadside - Drone - Broadside - Drone - Broadside, deployment like this) you only get to hit 1 of them, and that's supposing you roll a hit in the first place. A flyrant is a flyrant, one skyray will kill one flyrant or a unit of missilesides will do even without markerlight support. He can save your warriors for turn 2-3 because they are not reaching anything Tau with their 6" movement. Biovores are the only thing that can threaten fire warriors/ drones but then again, skyrays can fire str 8 ap3 no cover shots without even needing LoS from 72" away. Good riddance, biovores.
I really really think your playing group is on the very very soft side. That's not a bad thing in the slightest, it just makes you see good units where they do not exist.
You can say what you will, the original point of this argument is that Tyranids (while not good, as I've stated) are better than CSM in a casual environment as well as any competitive environment. Yeah, if you're playing casual nids against people who spam Missilesides, Riptides, and Skyrays, you're gonna have a bad time. But that's not what this game is about, in my opinion. I play in a group of good players, that specifically field what they think is cool and refrain from cheddar builds. In this environment, my Nids thrive, which is enough for me to enjoy them. The minute you look at tournaments or pick-up games is the minute you throw balance out the window (which can be said for most armies, not just Nids). So say what you want, the original argument is that Tyranids are better than CSM, and I'm sure everyone will agree with me.
Dude you are taking this too seriously, no need to Tyranids are doing better than CSM at tournaments indeed. This is a problem with both books though, with helldrakes nerfed and most other CSM choices sub par. Tyranids are only doing good because of the brainleech devourers, it is actually a codex:brainleech. Sometimes having more mediocre units overall is better than having one good unit and all the rest sucking. Believe me I would know, I have way too many tyranids than I can fit in a list yet still I look at my shelves and find my options ridiculously limited.
It is also worth to notice that CSM is a 2012 book with 3 formations and Tyranids are a 2014 book with 3 extra full model/rule releases mid-end 2014 and a total of 20ish or so formations. The fact that they are still comparable for the worst army in the game should go a long way into telling you why I think CSM have more options.
Martel732 wrote: CSM and BA are the two worst codices in the game, imo. This makes Tyranids above those two by definition.
I know BA aren't super good, but at least they have a more coherent book than Nids. In a casual setting, BA can do very well. So I'd put them at least on the same tier as Tyranids.
Martel732 wrote: CSM and BA are the two worst codices in the game, imo. This makes Tyranids above those two by definition.
I know BA aren't super good, but at least they have a more coherent book than Nids. In a casual setting, BA can do very well. So I'd put them at least on the same tier as Tyranids.
Tyranids played properly will stomp all over the BA. BA may be coherent, but the 7th ed codex destroyed every power build from 5th, and gave nothing in return. No librarian conclave, no grav cents, not a single defining marine unit from 7th ed. We are the loyalist CSM. In fact, CSM might be a bit better.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Dude you are taking this too seriously, no need to Tyranids are doing better than CSM at tournaments indeed. This is a problem with both books though, with helldrakes nerfed and most other CSM choices sub par. Tyranids are only doing good because of the brainleech devourers, it is actually a codex:brainleech. Sometimes having more mediocre units overall is better than having one good unit and all the rest sucking. Believe me I would know, I have way too many tyranids than I can fit in a list yet still I look at my shelves and find my options ridiculously limited.
It is also worth to notice that CSM is a 2012 book with 3 formations and Tyranids are a 2014 book with 3 extra full model/rule releases mid-end 2014 and a total of 20ish or so formations. The fact that they are still comparable for the worst army in the game should go a long way into telling you why I think CSM have more options.
....uhh, wut? How am I taking this too seriously? I'm having a conversation with you, that is all.
And CSM have the same amount of terrible units. Kharn, Lucius, heck even Abbadon is sub-par at best, Regular marines are meh, cultists are only good as plague zombies, which requires you to bring Typhus, who's expensive. Their Land Raider is terrible, as well as Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Possessed, Warp Talons, Terminators, Mutilators, Defilers, Helbrutes, and Daemon Princes. Bikes are only decent because of MoN, but are still meh. Spawn are okay, if you spam them, and even then, meh. Heldrakes are still good, but they won't carry your army like they did in 6th. Raptors are only good because they can take Meltaguns. Havocs are Devastators with absolutely no shooting buffs whatsoever, and no ATSKNF. Plus they cost about the same. Oblits are good, but are still LD8 with no fearless.
I would totally be on board with agreeing with you if, in fact, CSM actually had a handful of sub-par units. At this point, I hope someday they can live up to those expectations, but as it stands, there is so much useless stuff in that codex it's baffling.
On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.
So yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.
The difficulty in determining the worst codex seems to come from there being multiple definitions of the meaning of "worst".
The tyranids have one strong build and the rest of the codex is beyond garbage.
CSM have overpriced specialised units that have no synergy.
BA have no defining traits and lack special toys even vanilla marines get.
DE have no characters and die in a light breeze.
What it means to be the worst gets tossed around with evidence such as ally abuse for BA and DE and mono-build flyrants for 'nids being thrown in as evidence that these codexes are not the worst. I think these codexes should all just be classified as "bad" and we can get back on topic.
On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.
so yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.
True, not for a heavy weapon team, but haven't used a devastator is a very long time.
On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.
so yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.
True, not for a heavy weapon team, but haven't used a devastator is a very long time.
Well, in your case I don't blame you.
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the Signless wrote: I think these codexes should all just be classified as "bad" and we can get back on topic.
Maybe 4 X lascannon devs work in some lists. They have good firepower/pt but bad durability/pt. But I like heavy weapons on things like attack bikes that keep up with the rest of the units.
"Also, when is ATSKNF ever a hindrance?"
I usually want my units swept so I can shoot the enemy more. I don't run BA as an assault army, because feth assault in 7th. However, real codices do have some assault units like TWC and so I'd like to be able to shoot them on my turn guaranteed. I can't do that if they are locked up with a stupid tactical squad because one loser survived.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.
Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).
Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.
I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.
Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).
Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.
I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.
Except you have to fork over the $$ to get said rulebooks. Nope.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.
Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).
Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.
I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.
For convenience and costs sake its really better to have it all in one codex.
Some tournaments cap lists as 'single source' I.E. you can only build a list from a single codex, some go further and say 'single detachment' meaning you can build your list from only a single formation, or a single CAD, or a single 'Decurion' style formation, no allies, etc. In these formats, Eldar reigns supreme.
chaos0xomega wrote: Some tournaments cap lists as 'single source' I.E. you can only build a list from a single codex, some go further and say 'single detachment' meaning you can build your list from only a single formation, or a single CAD, or a single 'Decurion' style formation, no allies, etc. In these formats, Eldar reigns supreme.
I dunno, in that setting, I feel like Necrons might put up a decent fight. Especially since a lot of tourneys limit the number of GCs and SHVs you can take.
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Martel732 wrote: Single source. I like that. It shuts up the IoM haters, at any rate.
I have legitimately never played a game using more than one codex at time (well aside from one or two odd times where I played some orks as Blood Axe mercenaries to supplement a Space Marine Scout force). So I support this. It does bone a couple factions like Inquisition though.
Yo Martel! I'd like to see a BA take on that Thunderdome list. Park about 1000pts of ICs in a 15-strong DC squad and just abuse the hell out of Invis, Forewarning, and Sanctuary.
Weight of fire will plink off Invis and 3+/3++/5+++. You can multiassault Scatterbikes and wreck WKs with ID weapons and Quickening. If your DC squad gets chewed up, just pawn your ICs off to a second squad you keep in reserve. You won't get T5 or 2+ Jink but maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff for FNP and a bigger squad.
It's power-gamey to the max but I'd enjoy seeing your Eldar buddies get suprised for a a change
Yoyoyo wrote: Yo Martel! I'd like to see a BA take on that Thunderdome list. Park about 1000pts of ICs in a 15-strong DC squad and just abuse the hell out of Invis, Forewarning, and Sanctuary.
Weight of fire will plink off Invis and 3+/3++/5+++. You can multiassault Scatterbikes and wreck WKs with ID weapons and Quickening. If your DC squad gets chewed up, just pawn your ICs off to a second squad you keep in reserve. You won't get T5 or 2+ Jink but maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff for FNP and a bigger squad.
It's power-gamey to the max but I'd enjoy seeing your Eldar buddies get suprised for a a change
Somehow I don't see this working at all, but then again I have no clue what a thunderdome is either.
Sammael
DA Chaplain on bike
RW Command Squad on Bikes
Wolf Guard Battle Leader on TWM
3x Iron Priests on TWM
3x Biker Librarians (Conclave)
Rune Priest Biker
So that's 10 ICs (1183pts) and 295pts of Command Squad. They did have FNP through an Apothecary though.
That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Yoyoyo wrote: That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!
Yoyoyo wrote: That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!
While arguing if IG or BA are worse can be fun, the fact that to play some of the factions you either have to play them other armies or use FW is not a good thing. At least imo. If an eldar or necron player can build an eldar army or a necron army and play with it, so should a IG or BA player. But right now playing any of those comes down to, why try to support suck with good stuff, when you can support good stuff with good stuff.
Makumba wrote: While arguing if IG or BA are worse can be fun, the fact that to play some of the factions you either have to play them other armies or use FW is not a good thing. At least imo. If an eldar or necron player can build an eldar army or a necron army and play with it, so should a IG or BA player. But right now playing any of those comes down to, why try to support suck with good stuff, when you can support good stuff with good stuff.
Both IG & BA's can play decently well enough on their own outside of cut throat 'Tournament' styled lists. CSM's less so due to everything about them being slightly over costed & their options being highly limited, but still, as long as your opponent isn't being a complete toolbag you can have some good fun games.
Using the "you can take allies" argument runs into a flaw because any army can be allied with anything. If allies are included into the discussion, it can be argued that CSM and non-flyrant tyranids are now OP because they can ally in a wraithknight and scatterbikes while also taking the skyhammer.
While some ally combinations do work better (such as the mentioned Librarians + Death Company or the DA + SW that seems to be making its rounds in Dman's threads), it is not evidence that supports a codex's power level.
Yoyoyo wrote: That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!
Paying to win is not to everyone's taste. Neither is diluting your preferred army into a beard for a stronger one. While your example list is interesting it would require me to buy another book. Once I've done that then I suddenly have a lot of options available. A lot of BETTER options. Suddenly the BA portion starts shrinking until there is nothing left but red marines. If you're going to use the SM Codex why bother using the BA's at all? I play Blood Angels because I want to play Blood Angels. It would be nice if GW wanted me to play Blood Angels too. They don't they want me to. They want me to play the Imperium of Man, so I can purchase a dozen codexes and related models. Some players have bought into that BS. Just because I refuse to, does not mean I'm living in the past.
If I want to win I can always throw my Eldar down and make the other player cry. What I want is to play my Blood Angels against any other army and have it decided by player skill. Not his wallet.
Makumba wrote: While arguing if IG or BA are worse can be fun, the fact that to play some of the factions you either have to play them other armies or use FW is not a good thing. At least imo. If an eldar or necron player can build an eldar army or a necron army and play with it, so should a IG or BA player. But right now playing any of those comes down to, why try to support suck with good stuff, when you can support good stuff with good stuff.
Both IG & BA's can play decently well enough on their own outside of cut throat 'Tournament' styled lists. CSM's less so due to everything about them being slightly over costed & their options being highly limited, but still, as long as your opponent isn't being a complete toolbag you can have some good fun games.
So all people using the Eldar codex are toolbags? Because it's almost impossible to have a good BA vs Eldar game even against the "reasonable" Eldar units. I'll still take CSM over BA because of helldrakes in the current meta and plague marines.
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the Signless wrote: Using the "you can take allies" argument runs into a flaw because any army can be allied with anything. If allies are included into the discussion, it can be argued that CSM and non-flyrant tyranids are now OP because they can ally in a wraithknight and scatterbikes while also taking the skyhammer.
While some ally combinations do work better (such as the mentioned Librarians + Death Company or the DA + SW that seems to be making its rounds in Dman's threads), it is not evidence that supports a codex's power level.
This. This is why BA are terrible. Because almost every list is strictly better without them.
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Yoyoyo wrote: That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Substitute vanguards for DC. And in some grav cents. Bam. Better list. BA useless.
Yoyoyo wrote: That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.
2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts
With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.
But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?
Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!
I'm not giving GW any more significant amounts of money. Nor should I have to.
Vash108 wrote: I feel if GW would just do the work and release all their Codex at once we wouldn't be having this Creep issue we are having.
It wasn't creep. It was a bimodal jump in power level. We had IG/DE/Orks/BA then all of a sudden we got Necron/SM/Eldar/DA. I don't begrudge the DA, really, but those other factions have been too good too long now.
Vash108 wrote: I feel if GW would just do the work and release all their Codex at once we wouldn't be having this Creep issue we are having.
It wasn't creep. It was a bimodal jump in power level. We had IG/DE/Orks/BA then all of a sudden we got Necron/SM/Eldar/DA. I don't begrudge the DA, really, but those other factions have been too good too long now.
Well you won't see me disagreeing with you about BA. I want my Chaos Dex to be on the same play level as others, I don't want to have to rely on a cookie cutter list with Drakes and Plague Marines.
CSM and BA are brothers in spirit. CSM had a brief time in the sun before Tau and Eldar crushed their common builds with mass firepower. Meanwhile, BA were languishing with a 5th ed codex that was eviscerated by 6th ed rules.
Now BA get a 7th ed codex that really isn't any better than the CSM 6th ed codex in practice. All I can hope is that CSM gets a decent book in the near future just to shake things up.
Vash108 wrote: I feel if GW would just do the work and release all their Codex at once we wouldn't be having this Creep issue we are having.
They don't have to release all the books at once, rather, they simply have to stop radically shifting their designs mid cycle like they always do...
The first 6th ed books with both Chaos 'dexes + DA's were pretty damn level. Tau ramped it up, then Eldar made things nuts with Serpent Shields. (really, the only truly broken/heinous & obnoxious thing about that book)
7th saw books moving back towards a more even keel with the initial 6th ed books, but with the added 'new feature' being the race specific FOC's.
But then GW decided to go completely off the deep end and give us the radically altered & amazingly powerful 7.5 Decurions on top of a model clusterfeth. (aka: Scatbikes)
Vash108 wrote: I feel if GW would just do the work and release all their Codex at once we wouldn't be having this Creep issue we are having.
They don't have to release all the books at once, rather, they simply have to stop radically shifting their designs mid cycle like they always do...
The first 6th ed books with both Chaos 'dexes + DA's were pretty damn level. Tau ramped it up, then Eldar made things nuts with Serpent Shields. (really, the only truly broken/heinous & obnoxious thing about that book)
7th saw books moving back towards a more even keel with the initial 6th ed books, but with the added 'new feature' being the race specific FOC's.
But then GW decided to go completely off the deep end and give us the radically altered & amazingly powerful 7.5 Decurions on top of a model clusterfeth. (aka: Scatbikes)
They could at least design them all at once then release them as normal. I would just like a somewhat level playing field.
So much of this stuff relates to MTG. Yes, there are always decks out there that are just going to be superior across the format. But, get someone very good at the game playing a say tier 2 or tier 3 deck, they could easily take down someone who is playing a tier 1 deck who honestly doesn't know the game or his deck well.
I have a feeling that any army considered "OP" or "Tier 1" can be beaten by someone who knows how to play his list well and knows well how the rules of the game work.
ServiceGames wrote: So much of this stuff relates to MTG. Yes, there are always decks out there that are just going to be superior across the format. But, get someone very good at the game playing a say tier 2 or tier 3 deck, they could easily take down someone who is playing a tier 1 deck who honestly doesn't know the game or his deck well.
I have a feeling that any army considered "OP" or "Tier 1" can be beaten by someone who knows how to play his list well and knows well how the rules of the game work.
SG
Everybody in mtg has access to multiple decks though by virtue of buying random cards. In warhammer you can't have multiple armies easily. It's like being forced to play only black in mtg. Furthermore in mtg once an edition rotates, all colors are updated simultaneously. It's not like having to stick to 9th edition black while blue is on it's 13th edition.
ServiceGames wrote: So much of this stuff relates to MTG. Yes, there are always decks out there that are just going to be superior across the format. But, get someone very good at the game playing a say tier 2 or tier 3 deck, they could easily take down someone who is playing a tier 1 deck who honestly doesn't know the game or his deck well.
I have a feeling that any army considered "OP" or "Tier 1" can be beaten by someone who knows how to play his list well and knows well how the rules of the game work.
SG
Everybody in mtg has access to multiple decks though by virtue of buying random cards. In warhammer you can't have multiple armies easily. It's like being forced to play only black in mtg. Furthermore in mtg once an edition rotates, all colors are updated simultaneously. It's not like having to stick to 9th edition black while blue is on it's 13th edition.
I wouldn't say it is all Random buying cards. You can purchase specific cards individually from card shops. Some ranged to $100 per card.
Or you can buy cheap prints. In cases of a few armies, even if you were to buy copies of the actual stuff it still costs a lot. On the other hand MTG fakes are so high standard, you would have to call a deck check every game.
Makumba wrote: Or you can buy cheap prints. In cases of a few armies, even if you were to buy copies of the actual stuff it still costs a lot. On the other hand MTG fakes are so high standard, you would have to call a deck check every game.
Except the same is also true for 40k, as Chinese re-casters a big deal. If you're going to be unscrupulous and pirate, there's plenty of fakes out there available on-line. Once stuff is painted, it's pretty hard to tell what's legit and what's a re-cast, especially given the age of a large number of models across every army...
It may be easy for example to tell off hand say a fake of the new Bloodthirster or Scatbikes, as those kit are barely half a year old at most. But things like say Warp Spiders or Plaguemarines which are old as dirt? Yeah, good luck trying to tell if it's a cheap knock-off without first scraping off some paint.
Ghazkuul wrote: We also have 1-2 annoying little ***** that play Eldar and actually insult players who won't play them, "Grow some balls and fight me".
Lol, I literally would. After I punch them in the mouth and they look up tearfully and ask why I did that I'll just say "you asked me to fight you, not play you. Now, if it's a game you want then sure!"
Also, isn't it funny that we scared Dman out of his own thread by being such a bunch of "goobs"?!
Ghazkuul wrote: We also have 1-2 annoying little ***** that play Eldar and actually insult players who won't play them, "Grow some balls and fight me".
Lol, I literally would. After I punch them in the mouth and they look up tearfully and ask why I did that I'll just say "you asked me to fight you, not play you. Now, if it's a game you want then sure!"
Also, isn't it funny that we scared Dman out of his own thread by being such a bunch of "goobs"?!
Well his last thread got locked, which was pretty much crying his Eldar got beat. This one needs to be locked as well.
Except the same is also true for 40k, as Chinese re-casters a big deal. If you're going to be unscrupulous and pirate, there's plenty of fakes out there available on-line. Once stuff is painted, it's pretty hard to tell what's legit and what's a re-cast, especially given the age of a large number of models across every army...
Are you real compering the cost of a full recast army vs a MTG fake print deck. Lets say the recasting will save you half the army cost, and no one will ever find out, although it is much easier with recasts then with fake print cards. The army will cost 300-400$. You can get a top quality MTG for less then 100$, if you have some of the commons and lands.
It may be easy for example to tell off hand say a fake of the new Bloodthirster or Scatbikes, as those kit are barely half a year old at most. But things like say Warp Spiders or Plaguemarines which are old as dirt? Yeah, good luck trying to tell if it's a cheap knock-off without first scraping off some paint.
Am sorry, but if the models are out of print, then if anyone suddenly comes up with an army of 40 of those, everyone will think they are recasts. And if someone turns up at a store with an army the store owners knows they didn't buy at the store, he may not even care if they are recasts or "original" GW finecast.
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
Martel732 wrote: Substitute vanguards for DC. And in some grav cents. Bam. Better list. BA useless.
You've probably noticed a number of lists with "useless" units winning tournaments simply because people aren't used to countering them. So, horses for courses.
Mono-BA is not only weak because of the codex, it's also weak because a mono-codex is usually predictable. Or should I say, most players are predictable. Some units are better, some are worse. Allies are strong not only because you can cherry pick the power units, but because you can create unique and powerful synergies that nobody yet expects. You can do this within a mono-faction, Lictors are one example, but you need to use dark horse units that have less obvious strengths.
You might say "SM = better units" but the entire point of 45x DC is to be an immense sponge for psychic buffs and a wound tank for monster ICs like Dante, with enough depth to cycle the core unit twice. Vanguard and Grav Cents defeat synergy, and you can't win without synergy if you're a weaker codex. No, it's not a better list, unless you're seeing something I don't. You missed the entire concept, and novelty is part of it. Would the Thunderdome list that swept NOVA have been better with Grav Cents?
Here's the point. Synergy > units. You typically counter "better units = better synergy". So you then proceed to compare the value of units independently, which morphs instantly into "units > synergy", and you miss the point entirely. Again. You need to organize around desired effects first, practical routes to achieve vital synergies second, and the necessary units to support your strategy last. It's a subtle but very important difference.
Where some see obstacles, others see opportunities. While it's always fun to see you bemoan your beloved and once-glorious Blood Angels, your attitude is reminiscent of a crab trapped in a bucket. No need to change though, you're generally amusing in a light-hearted yet melancholic sort of way. In fact I think I'd kind of miss your negativity if you weren't getting tabled by Scatterbikes about once a week.
I'd be wiling to try it in a computer game, but I can't/won't pay for three more librarians and 20ish more DC.
Interestingly, I've never thought that the BA ever played quite right. Rhino rush (3rd) and razor parking lot (5th) are not really how I ever envisioned them working.
Jump marines have never been that good, and that makes me kinda sad.
Martel732 wrote: I'd be wiling to try it in a computer game, but I can't/won't pay for three more librarians and 20ish more DC.
Interestingly, I've never thought that the BA ever played quite right. Rhino rush (3rd) and razor parking lot (5th) are not really how I ever envisioned them working.
Jump marines have never been that good, and that makes me kinda sad.
I hate to say it Martel, because you do know a bit about how the game works it seems, but if you are unwilling to try new things at all ever than that might be your problem.
You can't build a list in 3rd and expect it to perform in 5th, let alone 7th. So you must often try new things. The points yoyoyo makes are worth investigating, but you won't even do that. So if you haven't investigated literally every single option ever, then you undermine your own authority when you say BA are bad!
Yoyoyo wrote: The price is the worst thing about 40k. Bar none.
Experimentation is nicer when you're not down 7$ a model for a 50/50 idea.
I can execute 15 different terran builds in one evening of Starcraft. If they fail, I loose a little ranking that I can get back by playing staple builds well. It's not that I'm conceptually against allies, but I'm just not willing to pay real money to GW for the plastic for said allies. Needing allies to even remotely compete is distasteful, but the money is the real kicker.
Yoyoyo wrote: The price is the worst thing about 40k. Bar none.
Experimentation is nicer when you're not down 7$ a model for a 50/50 idea.
I can execute 15 different terran builds in one evening of Starcraft. If they fail, I loose a little ranking that I can get back by playing staple builds well. It's not that I'm conceptually against allies, but I'm just not willing to pay real money to GW for the plastic for said allies. Needing allies to even remotely compete is distasteful, but the money is the real kicker.
That is a better reason! I just thought you were being obstinate about your BA. Yes, money is not something one should easily part with.
The way I see it that on a powerscale of 1 to 10, mono codices should have builds available to them in the 6-8 range. I have no problem with 9 and 10's being possible only through allies. After all, an 8 still hasva chance against a 10.
What we have instead is some monodexes going up to 10 and others maxing at 3.
Martel732 wrote: The way I see it that on a powerscale of 1 to 10, mono codices should have builds available to them in the 6-8 range. I have no problem with 9 and 10's being possible only through allies. After all, an 8 still hasva chance against a 10.
What we have instead is some monodexes going up to 10 and others maxing at 3.
I disagree. Allies shouldn't be a "make your list more broken" card. Maybe a bit more powerful, but no more than any monocodex list.
Will every army have builds that are better than others? Sure. But in a ideal world, those ideal builds should be balanced against those form other codexes. The problem, as you put it, is that allies are necessary for some factions and armies to approach the power that certain armies can have without allies.
Martel732 wrote: The way I see it that on a powerscale of 1 to 10, mono codices should have builds available to them in the 6-8 range. I have no problem with 9 and 10's being possible only through allies. After all, an 8 still hasva chance against a 10.
What we have instead is some monodexes going up to 10 and others maxing at 3.
I disagree. Allies shouldn't be a "make your list more broken" card. Maybe a bit more powerful, but no more than any monocodex list.
Will every army have builds that are better than others? Sure. But in a ideal world, those ideal builds should be balanced against those form other codexes. The problem, as you put it, is that allies are necessary for some factions and armies to approach the power that certain armies can have without allies.
I don't consider going from 8 to 10 to be "breaking" the game. I think that it's inevitable that a few mathematically optimal combos are to be found by combining codices. Just not to the point that it exists now.
The problem I have (playing 3 IoM factions myself) is the assumption that they should all count as one big Codex to balance it. feth that, I don't want to buy 9(!!!) Codices at full price because my Space Wolves really aren't up to snuff without that Smurf ladies man Tigurius or a Ravenwing bike formation. I don't want to NEED a Knight to give my Guard a snowball's chance at winning. But that kind of is how it is.
So yeah, Martel, I get what you mean when you say you don't want that. You want to play your Blood Angels because you like their background and quirks. There is very little reason right now to play them over Ultramarines, and it's bs.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
How is that legal? Thats 8 characters.
Space Wolf unique detachment allows the four Wolf characters, Interrogator-Chaplain as HQ for an allied DA detachment, allied SM Librarius Conclave formation.
Dman137 wrote: wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
If you've seen the rules then you should post that in the rumors thread (so it can actually stay on topic for once).
If you haven't then you don't know what the hell you're talking about. This is an obvious diversionary tactic because you know full well the Eldar codex is indefensible and have nothing else to fall back on, and you're hoping to sic the mob on us instead (and we don't deserve it, Tau have gotten enough hate as it is simply for existing, regardless of how strong their rules have been...and Tau never really got bad until the 6th edition codex anyway). Even if the new Tau codex is OP, it won't change anything anyway; Eldar are still going to be bullgak, and people aren't going to suddenly have more fun playing against dozens of scatbikes and D spam because Tau got nastier.
gmaleron wrote: Also because its an Imperial army and frankly from my experience on here and stores around the US if its an Imperial army then it "cant be" overpowered.
That's definitely a thing, yeah. I guarantee you if the roles were switched and the Marine codex was Eldar tier and vice versa, people would complain far, far less about Marines than they do currently about Eldar, if they complain at all.
Space Marines and to a lesser extent Guard are "allowed" to be overpowered because the fluff revolves around them, apparently. Marines are the poster boys and the fluff says they're unstoppable, so they're "supposed" to be overpowered (but similar fluff in other codices about how X race is superior or whatever is ignored). It's even worse when you consider GW's focus on "forging the narrative" in recent editions, it just helps reinforce that idea that the human factions shouldn't ever lose games because when the plucky humans don't overcome all the odds and end up getting eaten by bugs in the end and dying inglorious deaths, that's not as "interesting" of a narrative, is it? And if you're the bug player who doesn't think it's fair that they never win games and thinks the army they spent a grand on should do just as well as any other, then you're a WAACTFG playing the game for all the "wrong" reasons and you should learn to play the game for the narrative (in other words, letting the Marine player win).
Either way you don't have to waste your time losing a game from Turn 1.
You are the most orkish person I've ever met. And I mean that as a compliment.
