And thought it was an interesting unit. It seems built around the idea of going in deep (ideally with a devilfish) and utilizing its turret. As far as I can tell, the rules show how to deploy and shoot with it without ever touching on what it's shooting attack actually is.
How good this unit will be will very much be dependent on what the turret does.
The new guardian drone seems nifty, but I don't see it improving survival rates on fire warriors, most of the time they'll be in cover anyway.
Maybe the field amplifier relay will have a benefit beyond improving the guardian drone's invuln save?
This hints at some changes that are... interesting... to say the least.
The Tau, a faction that is well known for its long distance capabilities, receiving weapons that are stronger the closer you are to the enemy?
Not bad, but 5-10 man squad size is just painfully stupid. GW, you're supposed to at least care about the fluff even if you can't make balanced rules. Tau squad sizes are 6, 8, 12, etc, for a reason!
And we have the turret rules. It's a very good upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: The Tau, a faction that is well known for its long distance capabilities, receiving weapons that are stronger the closer you are to the enemy?
It makes sense, you can't significantly boost Tau long-range shooting because you don't want to have them wiping whole armies off the table before anyone can get close enough to fight back. Making new short-range units gives GW a lot more freedom to do exciting new things without breaking the game because the OMG WTF THATS AMAZING power is balanced out by having to get up close where everyone can fight back.
I think I hate these. You have a unit of firewarriors with nothing but extremely short ranged weapons that are anti-MEQ, so there goes any hope they wanted to make the Vespid usable.
But a short ranged unit has to remain stationary for a whole turn with their assault weapons to set up a single drone. That seems dumb.
Savageconvoy wrote: I think I hate these. You have a unit of firewarriors with nothing but extremely short ranged weapons that are anti-MEQ, so there goes any hope they wanted to make the Vespid usable.
No, you have a unit of carbine fire warriors that gets an AP 3 marine-massacring stat line if they happen to be up close.
But a short ranged unit has to remain stationary for a whole turn with their assault weapons to set up a single drone. That seems dumb.
That's why the drone costs so few points. Set it up on turn 1 while camping an objective, and let the unit act as area denial.
It seems like a decent squad to zip up, hop out of a transport, and unload into something. Definitely a departure from a gunline, but should give Tau someone to go grab objectives, and hopefully hold them.
I do this sort of thing with tac marines in a rhino. These guys, if pressed right up against their target, should cause a lot more damage. But they better kill whatever they are shooting at, otherwise the next turn is going to be very bad for them.
It will be interesting to see how the new codex treats the devilfish. It’s been forever since I’ve seen one on the table, and the sort of mechanized assault these guys look to do requires a transport.
I think I'm starting to warm up to these. They reason to push and be aggressive and will have a 5++ at the least. The drone sounds like a decent upgrade that the squad can deploy on an objective they want to camp and doesn't necessarily hold them down.
This will depend entirely on how the devilfish is costed.
I like the new helmets, and I already ran pulse carbine warriors in fish for the objective heavy games we play now a days, these guys are straight upgrades to those.
Yeah, anyone who's saying that these aren't [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] terrible is smoking crack.
5" range on the relevant profile. That means the enemy has to end their turn 11" or less away. Oh, wait, that's in fething charge range. Why would that make sense. At all. Then 10" range on the same profile as a freaking pulse carbine. Right, okay.
The shield is cool, we can pay 12 points to become demons. As is the turret. If I can combine those two things with regular firewarriors then awesome. 5+ invuln and a missile pod for a total of 22 points more? Cool.
But breachers are terrible. First you gotta buy a devilfish, because it's the only way they get anywhere alive. That's 80 points. Then 110 for breachers with emp grenades.
I could buy a riptide. Literally. Why would I ever do this. This is absurd. feth GW and making everyone's codex better but ours.
5" range on the relevant profile. That means the enemy has to end their turn 11" or less away. Oh, wait, that's in fething charge range. Why would that make sense. At all.
Because Overwatch is a thing. Especially for Tau. With the Breachers, you want to move in the 5" range brand, unload all those S6 AP3 shots, cripple if not outright annihilate the target, then face the nearest enemy unit and say "Do it f*gget!" Extra LULZ if you have markerlight support nearby or do this trick with multiple Breacher Teams and use Supporting Fire to really mess up the enemy charge.
Alternatively, team up with a Stormsurge and use the Breachers to mop up remnant units. Or do the same with Ghostkeel support - the Stormsurge mauls the enemy, the Ghostkeel draws away the return fire, the Breachers finish the job.
Now, all we need is a cheap Devilfish and a reliable markerlight platform .
Because Overwatch is a thing. Especially for Tau. With the Breachers, you want to move in the 5" range brand, unload all those S6 AP3 shots, cripple if not outright annihilate the target, then face the nearest enemy unit and say "Do it f*gget!"
Except that's not what happens at all. Average charge distance is 7". Someone can reliable close from outside of this things profile to CC without ever being shot by the AP3, even on overwatch.
Furthermore, the enemy has to end their movement within charge distance, fail the charge, and only then can we shoot them with the AP3. What the hell kind of high risk play is that?
LockeWatts wrote: Furthermore, the enemy has to end their movement within charge distance, fail the charge, and only then can we shoot them with the AP3. What the hell kind of high risk play is that?
Don't you have access to a drone that reduces charges by D3"?
Only on pathfinder teams, right now. if the breachers got access to the pathfinder drones (-D3" charge distance and +6" range) they would suddenly become very interesting. But we don't see that right now.
LucidNinja wrote: I get the feeling tau will be the next eldar... Tau players will think they're ok and everyone else will say there OP. Suppose only time will tell
From breachers? Their guns are a strait downgrade on carbines unless you get within 5" (and on a WS2, I2 model, that's a horrible range to be at). The are more survivable against ap 4+ because of that 5++, but that's about it.
Nevelon wrote: It seems like a decent squad to zip up, hop out of a transport, and unload into something. Definitely a departure from a gunline, but should give Tau someone to go grab objectives, and hopefully hold them.
I do this sort of thing with tac marines in a rhino. These guys, if pressed right up against their target, should cause a lot more damage. But they better kill whatever they are shooting at, otherwise the next turn is going to be very bad for them.
It will be interesting to see how the new codex treats the devilfish. It’s been forever since I’ve seen one on the table, and the sort of mechanized assault these guys look to do requires a transport.
They can't bit a hit squad though because they have to remain static. Their purpose is clearly just to camp out behind the Fire Warrior gunline and make sure no deepstrikes shank them in the back. Only problem though is they bump into something like Skyhammer, which will ruin these kinds of units. Probably would be better to not waste points on these guys and use them on more battlesuits.
Alternatively you could run these guys instead of fire warriors then without the stationary pod in devilfish and have a fast deploying force that can keep up with the suits instead of being static.
At least the pulse blaster is probably only ever going to be firing at the Str5 Ap5 version whenever something charges those FW. I definitely won't be charging when I am at the 5" mark.
It might be my marine POV, but I look at the turret like the heavy in the tac squad. You buy it as a just in case thing. The unit’s primary role is to hop out and blast things, the big stuff is for later. If they happen to still be alive on the objective the next turn, they plop down the turret, take some pot shots, and smoke em if they got em.
No, it's 10" for the relevant profile. At 10" you're matching pulse rifle/carbine stats, and even at 15" it's not terrible. And they're the same price per model as (current codex) fire warriors, so as long as you don't get caught outside 10-15" very often you're matching your current troops but also get the ability to murder MEQs if you get up close.
That means the enemy has to end their turn 11" or less away. Oh, wait, that's in fething charge range.
It's technically within charge range, but few people are willing to suffer Tau overwatch to roll a 10-11" charge that has very little chance of success.
Also, transports exist.
I could buy a riptide. Literally. Why would I ever do this.
You do understand how different FOC slots work, right?
No, it's 10" for the relevant profile. At 10" you're matching pulse rifle/carbine stats, and even at 15" it's not terrible. And they're the same price per model as (current codex) fire warriors, so as long as you don't get caught outside 10-15" very often you're matching your current troops but also get the ability to murder MEQs if you get up close.
The carbine is better than this thing for all ranges except 5". Even at 10", it still has the advantage of pinning.
I don't really like these guys, but I can see them being an ok suicide squad to pick off marines with them having 20 plasma shots at five inches for 90 points. Well I guess 170pts since you pretty much need them to have a Devilfish to be effective.
Oh, but there's something really cool here, the squad leader can take Target Lock with a Markerlight, it would be cool if they let the basic Fire Warriors have that too, as it offers more Markerlights to be hidden within the force.
I ordinarily am not a fan of Tau, and my tactical brain has always had a weakness for their mechanics (read: I have a hard time beating Tau players typically). That being said, I think it's freaking cool that these little dudes can zip up the field in their ship, pop out and set up a fire base. Sure, they're not super deadly, but I absolutely love the idea of a little shield zone and an automated turret protecting them while they fight. Even if nobody plays this unit competitively, I still say good for Tau for getting a unique, neat unit.
I can see two units of these in D-fish using the old fish o fury tactics. Drive up, turn around, dislodge 6", shoot away at 5" When done with two units, it could wipe out most potential enemy units. If there are any stragglers you use other longer range models like HYMP or the GhostKeel to finish them off.
I personally dont see the use of the turret that useful unless your using your guys behind the defense line as DS defense and you can just get another MP on the field.
If the FW's have access to the shields and drones you can almost bet your ass they'll see some use. Maybe even competitive. FW with a 6+ save is pretty good and with a turret in cover? Good stuff. That all depends on if they can get those upgrades. Breachers suck and can go die in a volcano though. I hope our Devifish transports get a massive price break to make them more competitive. That is key to bringing back mech Tau. Without that I wouldn't count on seeing anything but XV8 spam in tournaments. Unless they nerf those too. :(
Gamgee wrote: If the FW's have access to the shields and drones you can almost bet your ass they'll see some use. Maybe even competitive. FW with a 6+ save is pretty good and with a turret in cover? Good stuff. That all depends on if they can get those upgrades. Breachers suck and can go die in a volcano though. I hope our Devifish transports get a massive price break to make them more competitive. That is key to bringing back mech Tau. Without that I wouldn't count on seeing anything but XV8 spam in tournaments. Unless they nerf those too. :(
They probably have access to the Shield Drone but not the Turret, in fact I think all units that can get drones might be able to take the new version of the shield drone. If you look at it the Shield Drone isn't listed in their upgrade options, but the Turret is, and then the cost of the Shield Drone is listed in its own wargear section, with the only way for the Breachers to take it, is by taking it from their 0-2 Drone List drones. Meaning it's probably a universal drone, not a unit specific one, if that's the case it basically functions exactly like you'd expect a shield drone to function, and at 12 points it's uh-mazing.
As for the Breachers themselves, I think they can be competitive as they do one thing very well, while also being pretty cheap. Granted, they aren't something you take a lot of, but one unit can really do a lot of damage if played correctly.
Twenty plasma rifle shots (ok AP3 not AP2, but for killing most things it's just as good) for 90 points? Well I guess 170pts since you have to buy a Devilfish to get in range, but still that's a lot of Plasma equivalent weapons for almost no points and a Devilfish.
Compare that with three Crisis Suits wearing two Plasma Rifles and nothing else, which cost 156 points and get 12 shots at a bit over double range, and it's not unreasonable to field a suicide squad of these guys that can easily make its points back.
Tinkrr wrote: Twenty plasma rifle shots (ok AP3 not AP2, but for killing most things it's just as good) for 90 points? Well I guess 170pts since you have to buy a Devilfish to get in range, but still that's a lot of Plasma equivalent weapons for almost no points and a Devilfish.
Compare that with three Crisis Suits wearing two Plasma Rifles and nothing else, which cost 156 points and get 12 shots at a bit over double range, and it's not unreasonable to field a suicide squad of these guys that can easily make its points back.
The Crisis weapons operate at maximum range. The pulse guns on these are 5 inches. So no you don't get an equivalent amount of fire. You'll be firing plasma rifle shots well before the breachers get their str 6 shots. They are also more survivable and mobile. You'll be lucky if your breachers can even make it to 5 inch range without being obliterated to half squad health or less. Not to mention the constant threat of being tied up in melee from beyond their paltry 5 inch range.
They will be taking shots the entire time they try and get close if the enemy doesn't charge. If they push forward to assault these guys or keep up the pressure they'll be getting whittled down by enemy fire. I see no role for these things except a one trick devilfish pony kamikaze. Except I have better things to spend my points on than any of this. Even the FW are a much better troop choice with their longer ranges and constant ability to use the same damage. The breachers are a joke weapon. Even if they do get close your opponent will never make that mistake again. Just like these days when you load up FW with emp grenades and take a tank down. It's unlikely to ever work again because your opponent knows.
With their limited range I can't adapt and use their full power on most targets I want when I want. The battlefield changes and so does my priority of targets. Breachers are completely inflexible and once committed can't do anything else. Re-positioning them to make full use of them is harder than with firewarriors.
Gamgee wrote: If the FW's have access to the shields and drones you can almost bet your ass they'll see some use. Maybe even competitive. FW with a 6+ save is pretty good and with a turret in cover? Good stuff. That all depends on if they can get those upgrades. Breachers suck and can go die in a volcano though. I hope our Devifish transports get a massive price break to make them more competitive. That is key to bringing back mech Tau. Without that I wouldn't count on seeing anything but XV8 spam in tournaments. Unless they nerf those too. :(
They probably have access to the Shield Drone but not the Turret, in fact I think all units that can get drones might be able to take the new version of the shield drone. If you look at it the Shield Drone isn't listed in their upgrade options, but the Turret is, and then the cost of the Shield Drone is listed in its own wargear section, with the only way for the Breachers to take it, is by taking it from their 0-2 Drone List drones. Meaning it's probably a universal drone, not a unit specific one, if that's the case it basically functions exactly like you'd expect a shield drone to function, and at 12 points it's uh-mazing.
The little Support Turret is almost definitely going to be available to both versions of FW. Likely the reason it is in a unit upgrade rather than the Drone list is because it is not a Drone.
Gamgee wrote: Re-positioning them to make full use of them is harder than with firewarriors.
Yup! You will have to fight like a man with these guys, and run recklessly towards danger. Perhaps success awaits you, and perhaps ruin, but above all, glory.
Who dares wins! Blood for the blood God!
Hopefully I can equip the Shas'vre with a Daemon weapon
Gamgee wrote: Re-positioning them to make full use of them is harder than with firewarriors.
Yup! You will have to fight like a man with these guys, and run recklessly towards danger. Perhaps success awaits you, and perhaps ruin, but above all, glory.
Who dares wins! Blood for the blood God!
Hopefully I can equip the Shas'vre with a Daemon weapon
So I take it that the min sized squad of breachers plus drone turret is 55 pt
That puts it 1 point ahead of the current min Firewarriors. I imagine if someone predominately fielded min-sized fire warriors as a backfield objective sitter they could probably get a kick out of trying this unit out since it can provide extra thing on the field (that can't be directly shot at) to dish out S7. Of course that would also depend on Firewarriors (or Strikers if that's what they're going to be called) retain the same point value from the previous codex and don't have access to the turret.
Yoyoyo wrote: 'Tis nobler to fight in close and risk both victory and destruction, than run off the board edge after failing a morale check
You assume I play at the edges. I just don't want to be that close. It's dumb. A Tau is never too close, nor is he too far away. He is exactly where he needs to be.
You can't really be saying a unit sucks until you see the rest of the finished codex. It might be that the devilfish can gain deepstrike and be a drop pod to put the guys exactly where you want them. And just because it can get ap3 doesn't mean you have to use it that way. You jet up and jump out on an objective in cover and play come near me I dare you. You always get all your shots at full range and str 4 is ok. Then as the enemy close in to clear you out ypu progressively get better at wiping them out. Its a good unit that makes people think "stay at range and just get gunned down by weight of fire by rest of the army or try close in to assault and suffer more ap3 but less guns".
Also don't forget you now do what scions do but better, so well done you out do the guard again. You get your 5++ and your missile drone thing. Like I've said they might even get deep strike.
HANZERtank wrote: You can't really be saying a unit sucks until you see the rest of the finished codex. It might be that the devilfish can gain deepstrike and be a drop pod to put the guys exactly where you want them. And just because it can get ap3 doesn't mean you have to use it that way. You jet up and jump out on an objective in cover and play come near me I dare you. You always get all your shots at full range and str 4 is ok. Then as the enemy close in to clear you out ypu progressively get better at wiping them out. Its a good unit that makes people think "stay at range and just get gunned down by weight of fire by rest of the army or try close in to assault and suffer more ap3 but less guns".
Also don't forget you now do what scions do but better, so well done you out do the guard again. You get your 5++ and your missile drone thing. Like I've said they might even get deep strike.
If I'm going to sit and camp an objective I want to use regular FW with a drone giving them that save. They'll be able to contribute more by reaching out longer ranges and shooting stuff rather than just sitting there. Why have a unit that does one thing when I can have a unit that does two? The FW annihilate stuff at long range and at medium range. They cap and they can still be deepstriked in with this hypothetical devilfish and can take the drones and maybe even the drop in tower which synergises with them much more due to their range to utilize it. They can still get in cover like breachers.
In what situation would the Breachers ever be more useful when capping a point? The last 5 inches of a charge? whoop dee doo. By that point they've been almost a non-contributor just sitting on a cap point. By the time either team is getting charged it's too late. But at least the FW will have likely weakened the charger much more on the approach than the breachers will with one volley from their depleted and worn down squad. Where as the breachers can't contribute at a longer ranges and get less shots since they will be depleted by the time anyone gets within even their 15 inch range.
Which leaves their only truly useful role as an anti-tank unit that rushes up, but why do that when we have so many much better more efficient and reliable options?
The breachers without some sort of formation bonus are a complete travesty and it would take some sort of god tier drones/equipment/devilfish combo to make them super good. Now I'm not saying they don't have it in the new dex, for all we know they could. But with the rules as of now? And even the hypothetical rules being presented here? Nope. Not a chance in hell. Bringing them to all but the most casual of games will likely just result in disappointment.
Gamgee wrote: The FW annihilate stuff at long range and at medium range.
Wowowowowow... wait a minute. If my math is correct, a squad (10 guys) of FW can deal 2 Wounds to a MEQ if they are within Rapid Fire range. On the other hand, a unit (10 guys) of Breachers can deal 8 Wounds within 5" and the same 2 Wounds within 10" (almost FW Rapid Fire range). With only a single Markerlight Token (for BS4), the Breachers can wipe out a whole Tactical Squad with one volley (11 Wounds).
And before you start with the "muh 5" range" thing - learn to Devilfish dammit. The unit has that option for a very good reason .
Thinking more on it, Breachers are one of the better ways to prevent the 'gun line' style of Tau play. Problem for me, it is not very Kill Team friendly and that is all I seem interested in these days.
Furyou Miko wrote: What's not KT-friendly about the Breachers? A breacher with a turret sounds like a great way to do an FPS style Engineer type character.
IMHO, they are little too powerful for Kill Team. Especially with the turret.
JinxDragon wrote: Thinking more on it, Breachers are one of the better ways to prevent the 'gun line' style of Tau play.
Problem for me, it is not very Kill Team friendly and that is all I seem interested in these days.
To prevent that style of play, they have to do better than the gunline, not just be different. Kroot and Vespid offer different options- they just suck harder than Jenna Jameson.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Not super OP like certain people want to see out of tau, but definitely add some flavor and options. I'll play them casually for sure.
I don't think anybody wants them to be OP, just not worse than the options we have already. FWs with pulse carbines are better than these at all ranges except 5", and they can stay in that 18" sweetspot.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Not super OP like certain people want to see out of tau, but definitely add some flavor and options. I'll play them casually for sure.
I don't think anybody wants them to be OP, just not worse than the options we have already. FWs with pulse carbines are better than these at all ranges except 5", and they can stay in that 18" sweetspot.
But when they get within 5 they are more than 3x more efficient than fire warriors vs MEQ. Seems like a fair trade off to me.
At 5 inches basically every guy has a plasmagun when it comes to killing MEQ.
Pretty great when you consider they are only 9 points per model.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Not super OP like certain people want to see out of tau, but definitely add some flavor and options. I'll play them casually for sure.
I don't think anybody wants them to be OP, just not worse than the options we have already. FWs with pulse carbines are better than these at all ranges except 5", and they can stay in that 18" sweetspot.
But when they get within 5 they are more than 3x more efficient than fire warriors vs MEQ. Seems like a fair trade off to me.
At 5 inches basically every guy has a plasmagun when it comes to killing MEQ.
Pretty great when you consider they are only 9 points per model.
Yeah, they are pretty good at 5". but pretty lackluster everywhere else. And suits do it better (assuming that they stay the same) And if they are approaching, but don't get the 5", MEQ can just kill them in assault. If they just had 5,5 on the long ranged too, I'd like them, but the fact that they have to get within 10" to come up par with with pulse rifles and carbines is the killer to me. I love the idea, all my FWs have carbines, so I tend to be pretty short ranged anyway, but these just don't really have a place for me. Maybe if the DF get's it's desperately needed price drop.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Not super OP like certain people want to see out of tau, but definitely add some flavor and options. I'll play them casually for sure.
I don't think anybody wants them to be OP, just not worse than the options we have already. FWs with pulse carbines are better than these at all ranges except 5", and they can stay in that 18" sweetspot.
But when they get within 5 they are more than 3x more efficient than fire warriors vs MEQ. Seems like a fair trade off to me.
At 5 inches basically every guy has a plasmagun when it comes to killing MEQ.
Pretty great when you consider they are only 9 points per model.
Then add an ethereal to the mix and you have a choice of 6+ FNP or double tapping at 5" to put out 40, S6, AP3 shots. Granted that puts them up around 190 pts plus devilfish tax but the devilfish can take off or pick them up the next turn if they're still alive.
I don't think they suck at all, especially with ML support and maybe a unit of crisis suits providing backup.
Point for point though they clearly don't if you can get the blasters in range.
45 points for 10 str 6 ap 3 shots is incredibly good value.
Stick them in a devilfish and they make for a great area control tool. Anyone with a 3+ save won't want to end their turn within 17 inches of these guys.
Well looking at the rules I think they are supposed to take and hold objectives. The short range is a giveaway -- they're meant to be used in overwatch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hence the turret. They take an objective and then camp on it.
Alcibiades wrote: Well looking at the rules I think they are supposed to take and hold objectives. The short range is a giveaway -- they're meant to be used in overwatch.
I don't think so. They are supposed to be rammed into the opponent's 3+ save units at an opportune moment, most likely using a devilfish, unless an alternate delivery system comes along.
They don't make a great overwatch unit due to the opponent being able to dictate the range - a smart opponent will stay 6 inches away if he wants to charge using anything with a 3+ save.
Not sure how the codex will pan out but there were items that increased the range of pulse weapons by 6" and that may still be a thing (it could even be an AoE buff too) and with what they've done with formations for the other armies I get the feeling that buffed BS overwatch could be a possibility...
Alcibiades wrote: Well looking at the rules I think they are supposed to take and hold objectives. The short range is a giveaway -- they're meant to be used in overwatch.
I don't think so. They are supposed to be rammed into the opponent's 3+ save units at an opportune moment, most likely using a devilfish, unless an alternate delivery system comes along.
They don't make a great overwatch unit due to the opponent being able to dictate the range - a smart opponent will stay 6 inches away if he wants to charge using anything with a 3+ save.
Well take AND hold -- jump out of devilfish, take objective from enemy, deploy turret, sit on objective.
The enemy can sit outside of 5" if he wants to, but that reduces his chance of making the charge, hence gicing the Breachers another turn of shooting if he fails.
Alcibiades wrote: Well looking at the rules I think they are supposed to take and hold objectives. The short range is a giveaway -- they're meant to be used in overwatch.
I don't think so. They are supposed to be rammed into the opponent's 3+ save units at an opportune moment, most likely using a devilfish, unless an alternate delivery system comes along.
They don't make a great overwatch unit due to the opponent being able to dictate the range - a smart opponent will stay 6 inches away if he wants to charge using anything with a 3+ save.
I keep trying to explain this to them but many don't understand measurement. It's easy for them to stay out of the range of these guys and either whittle them down or move in to charge them at a 5.1 range which is incredibly easy to make and they won't be getting their overwatch 6/3. They'll only have whatever Breachers that have survived up until then doing ordinary 5/5 shots. Where as with FW and pulse rifles they can always be shooting at their maximum range and inflicting hits even if no one comes to them. Their range is huge and never discount a few extra hits from them. Then if they do get charged they might have been able to soften up the enemies approaching them for a few turns. Which usually result sin less shots coming their way before the charge and thus more alive to fire rapid fire and then overwatch. They simply shoot far far more dakka to put it simply. And that has a constant effect. Where as I've tried to explain breachers can't do that. They can't be constantly firing at things due to them being on a point with short range. The FW's are also guaranteed to use their maximum damage value and can't simply be kited or exploited with weird range brackets.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike. Where as FW's can make some alpha or near alpha strikes depending on who goes first. The Breachers will usually get blown away or whittled down before anyone even gets close to them. Where as like I said FW's can contribute small amountss of 5/5 with their greater range. And if anyone does get in rapid fire range and tries to charge they still do the same 5/5 damage. Unless your opponent is extremely bad and ends up within the 5 inches for the guns to be amazing your just going to be doing 5/5 shots for overwatch. So why not use FW's at that point.
The only dubious role these things have is as a suicide mech tau unit, but even then we have better anti-tank that's far more reliable than them.
I think it's their accompanying turret that is supposed to be contributing to the battle at long range, not the 45 points worth of breachers that are its delivery system.
Hmm. Are there available rules for the turret yet?
Alcibiades wrote: I think it's their accompanying turret that is supposed to be contributing to the battle at long range, not the 45 points worth of breachers that are its delivery system.
Hmm. Are there available rules for the turret yet?
It's just an sms or a missle launcher. Same stats as now.
Alcibiades wrote: Well looking at the rules I think they are supposed to take and hold objectives. The short range is a giveaway -- they're meant to be used in overwatch.
I don't think so. They are supposed to be rammed into the opponent's 3+ save units at an opportune moment, most likely using a devilfish, unless an alternate delivery system comes along.
They don't make a great overwatch unit due to the opponent being able to dictate the range - a smart opponent will stay 6 inches away if he wants to charge using anything with a 3+ save.
I keep trying to explain this to them but many don't understand measurement. It's easy for them to stay out of the range of these guys and either whittle them down or move in to charge them at a 5.1 range which is incredibly easy to make and they won't be getting their overwatch 6/3. They'll only have whatever Breachers that have survived up until then doing ordinary 5/5 shots. Where as with FW and pulse rifles they can always be shooting at their maximum range and inflicting hits even if no one comes to them. Their range is huge and never discount a few extra hits from them. Then if they do get charged they might have been able to soften up the enemies approaching them for a few turns. Which usually result sin less shots coming their way before the charge and thus more alive to fire rapid fire and then overwatch. They simply shoot far far more dakka to put it simply. And that has a constant effect. Where as I've tried to explain breachers can't do that. They can't be constantly firing at things due to them being on a point with short range. The FW's are also guaranteed to use their maximum damage value and can't simply be kited or exploited with weird range brackets.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike. Where as FW's can make some alpha or near alpha strikes depending on who goes first. The Breachers will usually get blown away or whittled down before anyone even gets close to them. Where as like I said FW's can contribute small amountss of 5/5 with their greater range. And if anyone does get in rapid fire range and tries to charge they still do the same 5/5 damage. Unless your opponent is extremely bad and ends up within the 5 inches for the guns to be amazing your just going to be doing 5/5 shots for overwatch. So why not use FW's at that point.
The only dubious role these things have is as a suicide mech tau unit, but even then we have better anti-tank that's far more reliable than them.
Why would you be trying to use this unit defensively? The reason you keep having to explain is because your tactic is nonsensical. Comparing breachers to firewarriors is comparing apples to oranges. The only thing similar for comparison that tau have are vespid (which will probably still suck). GW kindly included the instructions for how to use this unit as the it's title. Put them in a devilfish and either hold them in reserve fly them at an objective, or at one of the enemies bully units. In the devilfish they have a 17' threat zone which considering the weapon they are armed with and their cost is great. If they want to shoot at the devilfish then they are not shooting at the riptide.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike.
Oh my god... dude... Just ask your local IG/AM player about how to get your unit within 6" of an enemy target and blast it away. The magic word you have to mention him is "meltavets".
I mean, if you footslog with your Breachers in any way or form, then you are doing something very wrong. And this is kinda' going over your head as I can see it.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike.
Oh my god... dude... Just ask your local IG/AM player about how to get your unit within 6" of an enemy target and blast it away. The magic word you have to mention him is "meltavets".
I mean, if you footslog with your Breachers in any way or form, then you are doing something very wrong. And this is kinda' going over your head as I can see it.
Exactly, there are already units that do this in many armies, now Tau have a solid option too. This isn't a new tactic, its tried and true.
Alcibiades wrote: I think it's their accompanying turret that is supposed to be contributing to the battle at long range, not the 45 points worth of breachers that are its delivery system.
Hmm. Are there available rules for the turret yet?
It's just an sms or a missle launcher. Same stats as now.
Alcibiades wrote: I think it's their accompanying turret that is supposed to be contributing to the battle at long range, not the 45 points worth of breachers that are its delivery system.
Hmm. Are there available rules for the turret yet?
It's just an sms or a missle launcher. Same stats as now.
I mean its toughness, wounds and so forth.
None. It can't be targeted in any way. The only way to kill it is to kill the models within 2" of it.
I see these guys as 11pt haywire grenade suiciders who can also bring the pain in close range. Tau has a ton of s7 ap 4 shots which are great against light vehicles but tau needs something for high AV. Also if these guys get access to the pulse accelerator drone then they will be extremely good with 11" range and 5++.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike.
Oh my god... dude... Just ask your local IG/AM player about how to get your unit within 6" of an enemy target and blast it away. The magic word you have to mention him is "meltavets".
I mean, if you footslog with your Breachers in any way or form, then you are doing something very wrong. And this is kinda' going over your head as I can see it.
The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.
Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike.
Oh my god... dude... Just ask your local IG/AM player about how to get your unit within 6" of an enemy target and blast it away. The magic word you have to mention him is "meltavets".
I mean, if you footslog with your Breachers in any way or form, then you are doing something very wrong. And this is kinda' going over your head as I can see it.
The EXACT same post you quoted. Look at the bottom. Look at it and read. And I quote myself "The only dubious role these things have is as a suicide mech tau unit, but even then we have better anti-tank that's far more reliable than them." Mech being short version of mechanized. Mechanized armies being high in vehicle, troop transports, and infantry fighting vehicles to support their troops when they get out. I didn't realize I had to quote the definitions at you. So our breacher/devilfish combo is not all that great compared to other options we have that the Breachers do. We have XV8, RIptides, Ghostkeels, and so much anti-infantry in all flavors its insane. Their only role is that of an anti-tank unit you rush up. Except we have fusion teams and now ghostkeels. We also have Y'vahrahs and R''varnahs. Our railguns might even get buffed to be useful. We also have broadsides with HYMP that are good vehicle killers. All of these are far better than the breachers at anti-tank and synergise better with FW pumping out anti-infantry fire. Our transports will get blown to pieces before it gets across the board and last I checked they ain't cheap.
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board.
Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board.
Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.
Fusion blasters, XV8, Riptides, stealth teams, Ghostkeels, Y'vahrah's, Barracuda's, HYMP Broadsides, maybe buffed railguns, and R'varnah as anti-tank and many of them can serve as anti-infantry as well in a pinch. I don't need Breachers or spec op teams that are going to get blown away by one blast weapon.
Edit
It's not the pulse accelerator drone. I took a look at it and the new drone. It's not it. I find it doubtful if they'll get accelerator drones since it would mean having to pack in additional sprues for them in every kit.
Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish"..... Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board. Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.
Is this where the IG guys enter and complain about how bad the IG have it and the Tau shouldn't complain while at the same time demonising the players who use Marines as a comparison in the IG thread?
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.
"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.
Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board.
Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.
Is this where the IG guys enter and complain about how bad the IG have it and the Tau shouldn't complain while at the same time demonising the players who use Marines as a comparison in the IG thread?
Given that the Space Marines have a far easier time of things and have done for a while which, incidentally, the Tau players have too there may just be some slight reason behind the bitterness. BTW I was merely pointing out to him that the Devilfish is, if used correctly, an amazing transport.
master of ordinance wrote: Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.
But I established FW's do that better. This issue has never been the validity of mechanized assault and capture tactics. It can do the assault... theoretically. Except we've got better anti-tank units that are more efficient in points cost. So that leaves me to ask one last question. if we have better anti-tank can it do capture and hold well? And as I debated hotly over the previous pages. No. it can't. The FW's are the better unit for that.
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.
"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.
Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.
Guard Chimeras are about 10-15 points over priced and can be destroyed by basic infantry shooting their flank armour.
master of ordinance wrote: Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.
But I established FW's do that better.
Maybe.
I was just trying to contribute as to how these can be used.
master of ordinance wrote: "Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.
"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.
Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.
Guard Chimeras are about 10-15 points over priced and can be destroyed by basic infantry shooting their flank armour.
master of ordinance wrote: Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.
But I established FW's do that better.
Maybe.
I was just trying to contribute as to how these can be used.
I appreciate your contribution, but so far no one has given me a good solid suggestion for their use. Why they're a good choice of anti-tank or a good capping squad. I mean hypothetically Vespids have a use. In theory. In practice and reality it's often another thing.
Eh, I have no idea tough to tell you the truth I do love the image of a Devilfish swooping in and these guys jumping out of the back hatch, blasting the foe off the objective and then securing it before calling down a turret emplacement and then holding the objective until the Firewarriors arrive, then mounting back up once again to repeat the process.
master of ordinance wrote: Eh, I have no idea tough to tell you the truth I do love the image of a Devilfish swooping in and these guys jumping out of the back hatch, blasting the foe off the objective and then securing it before calling down a turret emplacement and then holding the objective until the Firewarriors arrive, then mounting back up once again to repeat the process.
It's never the coolness that's been at question. It's definitely cool and I wish their rules were not so atrociously designed as I would like to use them. Same reason I was mad at how bad the limpsurge was when I seen it. I want a reason to take and use such cool things, not look at them and go. Oh neat. In an ideal world everything in our codex would be super good and a bad build impossible. Whole still remaining balanced against others. I wish we lived in that world.
Tau are great in 40k and have just got better sorry but I have no idea why any one is moaning about tau. With tau you just ignore the rules of the game between marker lights, jump pack moves, base troop having a fantastic gun and decent armour, every one can help out a team in overwatch, marker lights make your over watch better and ignore cover or make you hit better, emp grenades by the truck load, missiles that ignore cover and don't need to see to fire.
Now you will have base troops with emp grenades, 4+ save 5+ invun, 30" gun str5 or choice of assault weapon closer you get is space marine or monster killer. That's just the base unit so give us all a break tau are over powered they are up there with necrons and the like.
The new models look good and have great stats,weapons or abilities the dex is going to be a monster top tier all the way maybe even number 1
10penceman wrote: Tau are great in 40k and have just got better sorry but I have no idea why any one is moaning about tau. With tau you just ignore the rules of the game between marker lights, jump pack moves, base troop having a fantastic gun and decent armour, every one can help out a team in overwatch, marker lights make your over watch better and ignore cover or make you hit better, emp grenades by the truck load, missiles that ignore cover and don't need to see to fire.
Now you will have base troops with emp grenades, 4+ save 5+ invun, 30" gun str5 or choice of assault weapon closer you get is space marine or monster killer. That's just the base unit so give us all a break tau are over powered they are up there with necrons and the like.
The new models look good and have great stats,weapons or abilities the dex is going to be a monster top tier all the way maybe even number 1
Actually, We don't know if the shield projector drone is available to strike teams, and if they don't have the special wargear, they only get a 6++. Plus it's not like the drone is free, you have to first purchase a shas'ui (10 points) and then purchase the drone it'self (probably going to be at least 14 or so points, although it could be less). And, if you have payed any attention to the leaks, you would see that the new tau stuff is firmly middle of the road. Not bad, but not OP. Hopefully, this is signaling a deescalation in all of 40k. I can but hope.
The key factor will be how cheap the devil fish will be either in the codex or in the formations. It's a good transport on it's own, but it's had a reputation as a hindrance due to it's point cost.
Especially since people were allowed multiple CAD. You could either buy a transport or just purchase another unit of firewarriors.
Their range has always made it so they never really had a problem finding targets so it was considered better to just keep them on the ground and shooting.
Again, I think the price of the devilfish will be a huge factor in this.
I run mobile tau (my FWs are all devilfished up, with crabines), and their price is really hard to justify. If I'm every doing anything semi-competative, and tend to drop them, and just footslog the FWs. At nearly 100 points upgraded, they are just not worth it, when I could spend the rest on more upgrades/units. That's nearly 600 points if you want to have a full army of them. They should be decently expensive (more than the rihno or chimerea, but not this expensive). 75-80 points would probably be right in that sweet spot of worth it, but not too cheap. Certainly that would save me 60-90 points or so. That might be a 20th or more of your total points allotment.
JinxDragon wrote: This hints at some changes that are... interesting... to say the least.
The Tau, a faction that is well known for its long distance capabilities, receiving weapons that are stronger the closer you are to the enemy?
Tau have a weakness to melee. We need to fix that immediately.
Based on what we've seen so far, I would say OP is not what the tau are going to turn out to be. They are looking pretty balanced, all things considered.
I said this before and I'll say it again: don't make any statements on how overpowered or weak the Tau codex will be until we see the formations. A huge part of the power (or lack of power) in a 7th edition codex is how blatantly overpowered its formations are. For example, would people have such a favorable opinion of C:SM if they didn't have the DLC drop pod formation or the ability to get hundreds of points worth of free transports?
I really want tau to turn out to be balanced. because that will probably be signal a deescalation in power level, something that is desperately needed. I'd even be OK with tau being under-powered, if everything starts being brought down to that relative level. I payed with their 4th edition codex for years, so I'm actually more used to being slightly under-powered.
The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.
Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.
because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2
The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models. And lets face it, the main hurt in the game tends to come from Star units that usually are sporting one or both. Hell, even Jinking bikes are a problem because even if Markerlights can remove cover you really need to have eyeball measuring to get inside that 5" range. It probably will be more difficult than it seems.
Jayden63 wrote: The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models. And lets face it, the main hurt in the game tends to come from Star units that usually are sporting one or both. Hell, even Jinking bikes are a problem because even if Markerlights can remove cover you really need to have eyeball measuring to get inside that 5" range. It probably will be more difficult than it seems.
I wonder if Marker lights will be extending range in the new dex
Tactical_Spam wrote: because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2
The problem is that you don't actually get that much extra mobility out of it compared to a 35-point Rhino. It's a skimmer, but it isn't any faster so you're only getting better mobility if you're jumping over impassible terrain or not willing to risk the 1/36 chance of being immobilized by normal terrain. Meanwhile its shooting isn't very impressive so you aren't getting a dual-role transport/gunship like a Wave Serpent or Valkyrie. And that shooting drops to pathetic levels if you move, since whatever idiot wrote the last codex removed vehicle multitrackers. It's just stuck in the awkward middle ground between "cheap box on wheels" and "tank with passengers", so it fills neither role effectively.
The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.
Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.
because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2
Space marines can to that with 35 point drop pods or heck even rhinos with dozer blades can do that for 40. The D-fish has always been overcosted except for when the army was first released and Rhinos were 50 points and Chimmera 70.
Jayden63 wrote: The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models.
They aren't worthless at all. They still have volume of fire to kill those tough models by forcing them to roll saves, just like fire warriors. The only difference is they give up range in exchange for a nasty anti-MEQ shot. But you can still use them just as effectively as normal fire warriors at 5-10" and reasonably well at 10-15".
Jayden63 wrote: The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models.
They aren't worthless at all. They still have volume of fire to kill those tough models by forcing them to roll saves, just like fire warriors. The only difference is they give up range in exchange for a nasty anti-MEQ shot. But you can still use them just as effectively as normal fire warriors at 5-10" and reasonably well at 10-15".
Worthless is probably too strong of a word, and the S6 on the gun is nice, I'll give that. Wounding bikes on a 3+ is pretty sweet. But I just don't see a unit of 10 forcing 6 saves being all that much of a volume of fire. Markerlights change this of course, but then again markerlights helping true Tau plasma may be better spent.
The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.
Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.
because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2
Yes, it is. Not outrageously, but it is.
And "in your face by turn two"? These are not fast vehicles. Your rhinos move at the same exact speed as them.
Jayden63 wrote: But I just don't see a unit of 10 forcing 3 saves being all that much of a volume of fire.
Where are you getting 3 saves from? A squad of 10 without markerlights will get 10 hits, and will wound virtually any non-LoW unit on at least a 4+. So that's a minimum of 5 wounds, up to 8.333 against a TEQ unit.
And, again, it's the same volume of fire as regular fire warriors, assuming you're in range. So if these aren't inflicting enough wounds to be useful then none of your other troops choices are either.
Jayden63 wrote: But I just don't see a unit of 10 forcing 3 saves being all that much of a volume of fire.
Where are you getting 3 saves from? A squad of 10 without markerlights will get 10 hits, and will wound virtually any non-LoW unit on at least a 4+. So that's a minimum of 5 wounds, up to 8.333 against a TEQ unit.
I fixed my math in the referenced post. Thanks for pointing it out.
The sentence right before that, I was talking about bikes or other T5 2+ saves which make up most STARs, my math failed and should be changed to 6ish wounds so thats one dead model if they have only 1 wound each. Then the breachers disappear next turn in HTH.
I am a huge fan of these guys, so much so that they make me want to sort of abandon my pure suit army theme idea! Definitely the best way to run these guys I am thinking is by tossing them inside a Devilfish with Disruption pods and zooming up the table. With the Devilfishes good front armor and jinking ability not only do these guys have a great chance of getting into optimal range (11 inches thank to disembark) but potentially wrecking whatever they shoot at. That and they are very Farsight Enclave esque by getting up close to blast people to pieces.
I was talking about bikes or other T5 2+ saves which make up most STARs
How much do most stars cost? You are comparing the firepower of a 90 point unit, against things which regularly cost 400+ points.
Why must your breachers be going for their star? They have the devilfish to move where they need to be. Use your ionsides and other new giant robot ap 2 weapons to deal 2+ save units.
This said, not every star is 2+, and with markerlights breachers could still make a serious mess of things like DA black knights or TWC. Against T5 3+ save units, a unit of 10 will cause 6 wounds, easily covering their cost.
I think a large part of the question of the viability of the breachers is the viability of darkstrider in the new codex.
Assuming he keeps the same rules, but is reduced to a sane point cost (and can join breachers ofc), he can make them quite threatening.
Passing along scout/outflank makes them hit where you want better, and make a fair increase of their threat range, the "overwatch movement" makes it that much harder to charge them. as even standing 5.1 inch away, you are on average going to fail even without terrain slowing you down.
And above all-reducing enemy T by 1 means the breachers ID T4 units, wound T5 on 2+, T6 on 3+ and even T8 on 3+. even against the dreaded wraithknight they will be a legit threat.
Once charged both are going down equally the same. Except the FW's will have a far likelier chance of contributing to the battle as well as being on a point compared to the breachers. Everyone here is saying "if the Breacherss get their full volley". All I have to do is quote a great Spartan King "If". I don't know what kind of opponents your playing but I rarely will ever have a full squad just idly sitting around. Maybe against certain armies if its in the backfield, but even then it's rare. All my units are damaged and picked off or weakened by battle. So it seems unlikely the Breachers will ever be at full squad to make that alpha strike.
Oh my god... dude... Just ask your local IG/AM player about how to get your unit within 6" of an enemy target and blast it away. The magic word you have to mention him is "meltavets".
I mean, if you footslog with your Breachers in any way or form, then you are doing something very wrong. And this is kinda' going over your head as I can see it.
The EXACT same post you quoted. Look at the bottom. Look at it and read. And I quote myself "The only dubious role these things have is as a suicide mech tau unit, but even then we have better anti-tank that's far more reliable than them.
The point is that it isn't a dubious role - it is their role. Also, if you are having a problem, then present a solution to that problem in the same post... than why are you whining again? And why are you bringing anti-tank into the argument?
About the Devilfish, the Breachers might justify even its current cost. The full unit comes out for some 200 points (197), and... well... it can easily earn back this 200 points in a single Shooting phase if you think about it. If you have some markerlight support to spare (you should) then you can do ridiculous stuff like one-volley a Bloodthrister, kill gravbikes with impunity, or surprise scatbikes and Wraithguards. Hell, the sheer
But, you know what guys, if you really have problems with the cost of the Devilfish, then put your Breachers behind your screening Kroot: the enemy charges the Kroot, the Kroot dies, the enemy is within effective firing range for the Breachers (who, at this point, are better for follow-up shots than the FWs). Bam!
I literally don't get why people are having a hard time understanding the utility of this unit. Kitted out, they're a threat to nearly everything. Sure it could wind up being a bit expensive but it's something that Tau currently don't have, effective objective campers or a quasi-assault unit. As someone mentioned earlier, they're an assault unit that uses guns instead of knifes.
You can't take this unit in a vacuum. Well, you can but it would just show an ignorance of how Tau work since they've always been a synergy army.
Here's how I see them working:
FoF them up the field or edge. Don't forget that the Devilfish can jink because it's a skimmer and all and since it doesn't shoot very well, you're not missing out on anything.
10 of these guys, the new shield drone and upgrade for the 5++ with an ethereal either with them or nearby. Drop them within 5" of a unit you don't like and drop 40 shots at BS5 using a couple of MLs and/or remove cover if needed.
If they get shot at and/or charged the following turn, you have 4+/5++ which is not crappy in the least. Alternatively you can give them a 6+fnp with the ethereal instead of the additional shooting.
Big tank you don't like? EMP grenades. Your 300 pt unit just wiped out a landraider. They might die but the fish is probably still around.
Sure, all of this depends upon what the new codex looks like but so does all the doom and gloom.
A good alternative would be a piranha with beacon running up the field and dropping the devilfish in someone's face the following turn (maybe). More risky but hilarious. Piranha fusions the transport and the squad aces the contents.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:They seem fluffy, effectively just cc with guns. That seems to fit with Tau. Will look forward to seeing some batreps with them.
Anyone else think they are intended to be defensive yet appear to be better when used offensively?
Not at all. They're breachers. Their mission is to blow a hole in a fortification and be the first unit through to clear out the enemy just inside and establish a beachhead for the rest of the army to get set up.
I mean, they effectively have shotguns - the most realistic representation of shotguns (admittedly plasma shotguns) I've seen in this game so far.
Here's how I see them working:
FoF them up the field or edge. Don't forget that the Devilfish can jink because it's a skimmer and all and since it doesn't shoot very well, you're not missing out on anything.
10 of these guys, the new shield drone and upgrade for the 5++ with an ethereal either with them or nearby. Drop them within 5" of a unit you don't like and drop 40 shots at BS5 using a couple of MLs and/or remove cover if needed.
If they get shot at and/or charged the following turn, you have 4+/5++ which is not crappy in the least. Alternatively you can give them a 6+fnp with the ethereal instead of the additional shooting.
Big tank you don't like? EMP grenades. Your 300 pt unit just wiped out a landraider. They might die but the fish is probably still around.
Except for the invul and necessity to get within 5" of infantry units, these are things that FW could do already. Fish are just too costly of a unit currently and until we get an idea of what changes they make to the devilfish it will be difficult to gauge their effectiveness, like getting deepstriking or outflanking. We will also need to see what changes are made to Darkstrider and to markerlights.
agnosto wrote: I literally don't get why people are having a hard time understanding the utility of this unit. Kitted out, they're a threat to nearly everything. Sure it could wind up being a bit expensive but it's something that Tau currently don't have, effective objective campers or a quasi-assault unit. As someone mentioned earlier, they're an assault unit that uses guns instead of knifes.
You can't take this unit in a vacuum. Well, you can but it would just show an ignorance of how Tau work since they've always been a synergy army.
Here's how I see them working: FoF them up the field or edge. Don't forget that the Devilfish can jink because it's a skimmer and all and since it doesn't shoot very well, you're not missing out on anything.
10 of these guys, the new shield drone and upgrade for the 5++ with an ethereal either with them or nearby. Drop them within 5" of a unit you don't like and drop 40 shots at BS5 using a couple of MLs and/or remove cover if needed.
If they get shot at and/or charged the following turn, you have 4+/5++ which is not crappy in the least. Alternatively you can give them a 6+fnp with the ethereal instead of the additional shooting.
Big tank you don't like? EMP grenades. Your 300 pt unit just wiped out a landraider. They might die but the fish is probably still around.
Sure, all of this depends upon what the new codex looks like but so does all the doom and gloom.
A good alternative would be a piranha with beacon running up the field and dropping the devilfish in someone's face the following turn (maybe). More risky but hilarious. Piranha fusions the transport and the squad aces the contents.
I see great utility.
Here is why people don't see the 'utility' of this unit. Lets say you fully kitted them out w/ Shas'ui - mandatory for the drone - shield drone, EMP, and just a base D-fish. That's 204 pts. But that's not all - that Ethereal you're talking about using to buff the squad is 50 pts. Ok, so the effective cost of that unit just went up to 254 pts. If you want some markerlights to improve accuracy, the most ubiquitous and cost effective unit to get that is Pathfinders. So, say you have a full squad of Pathfinders - because anything less is worthless - that's 110 pts. Again, increasing the effective points of the unit to 364 pts. If you zoom up to get into the sweet spot of <5" for MEQ killing and succeed - congratulations, you've used 364 pts to kill ~150 pts of a Tac squad. Or, maybe you went after a squad of SM bikers. Again, you used 364 pts to kill ~220 pts of bikes - assuming of course you managed to kill them all. Yay...?
Going after a Land Raider? Sure, you could do that - but so can Firewarriors - for the same cost and have better weapons for >5" shooting. "They might die, but the 'fish is probably still around." Woo.. lost 124 pts of shooting models but still have a transport with a burst cannon. Sure am glad I still have that. Lynch pin of my army right there.
And a 4+/5++ may not be "crappy in the least", but it's certainly a long way from being good.
Piranha and a beacon to drop the D-fish? Piranha's don't have access to any kind of beacon. D-fish don't have Deep Strike. Nor do the Breachers have Scout, so it's not Outflanking. At this point, you're wishlisting rules to attempt to make this unit seem usable.
Yes, this unit can be used, and some players may find a way to use them well - but they simply don't do anything that can't be already performed by models we currently already have. Dual plasma XV8's are better MEQ killers due to better survivability, manuverability and threat range. Dual fusion suits and/or Missilesides are better for tank hunting. And of course the Riptide does all of this and then some for a whole lot more points efficiency.
Here is why people don't see the 'utility' of this unit. Lets say you fully kitted them out w/ Shas'ui - mandatory for the drone - shield drone, EMP, and just a base D-fish. That's 204 pts. But that's not all - that Ethereal you're talking about using to buff the squad is 50 pts. Ok, so the effective cost of that unit just went up to 254 pts.
Thing is, the 254 points setup is more than the effective loadout for this unit. No need for the Ethereal, the EMP grenades, and maybe you can ditch the drone too. All you need is 10 Breachers and a Devilfish with a D-Pod. That's 8 MEQ wounds off the table right there, everything else is just icing on the cake. The whole unit is 185 points. No need to go overboard, this unit simply doesn't require it.
When I see new units come out like this, I like to think of what easy counters there are. For this one it's pretty simple just to shoot them down since they still suffer the same FW pitfalls. Low model count, low leadership, and T3. These kind of feel like cheap wingless vespid.
They may be useful for keeping in reserves and dealing with what units arrived by drop pod the previous turn.
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AtoMaki wrote: All you need is 10 Breachers and a Devilfish with a D-Pod. That's 8 MEQ wounds off the table right there, everything else is just icing on the cake. The whole unit is 185 points. No need to go overboard, this unit simply doesn't require it.
I'd like to point out again, that this still requires getting within 5" range. I'm not saying it can't work, but it's something your opponent probably won't make the mistake of twice.
Here is why people don't see the 'utility' of this unit. Lets say you fully kitted them out w/ Shas'ui - mandatory for the drone - shield drone, EMP, and just a base D-fish. That's 204 pts. But that's not all - that Ethereal you're talking about using to buff the squad is 50 pts. Ok, so the effective cost of that unit just went up to 254 pts. If you want some markerlights to improve accuracy, the most ubiquitous and cost effective unit to get that is Pathfinders. So, say you have a full squad of Pathfinders - because anything less is worthless - that's 110 pts. Again, increasing the effective points of the unit to 364 pts. If you zoom up to get into the sweet spot of <5" for MEQ killing and succeed - congratulations, you've used 364 pts to kill ~150 pts of a Tac squad. Or, maybe you went after a squad of SM bikers. Again, you used 364 pts to kill ~220 pts of bikes - assuming of course you managed to kill them all. Yay...?
Going after a Land Raider? Sure, you could do that - but so can Firewarriors - for the same cost and have better weapons for >5" shooting. "They might die, but the 'fish is probably still around." Woo.. lost 124 pts of shooting models but still have a transport with a burst cannon. Sure am glad I still have that. Lynch pin of my army right there.
And a 4+/5++ may not be "crappy in the least", but it's certainly a long way from being good.
Piranha and a beacon to drop the D-fish? Piranha's don't have access to any kind of beacon. D-fish don't have Deep Strike. Nor do the Breachers have Scout, so it's not Outflanking. At this point, you're wishlisting rules to attempt to make this unit seem usable.
Yes, this unit can be used, and some players may find a way to use them well - but they simply don't do anything that can't be already performed by models we currently already have. Dual plasma XV8's are better MEQ killers due to better survivability, manuverability and threat range. Dual fusion suits and/or Missilesides are better for tank hunting. And of course the Riptide does all of this and then some for a whole lot more points efficiency.
Yeah, my bad about the piranha thing. I have no idea why I thought that they came with a beacon or whatever. Maybe I got them confused with a marine speeder? Anywho a devilfish is nearly always adequate as a jinking skimmer to get a unit where you need it unless your opponent is ignoring the rest of your army blowing his/her face off, then yeah, my 250pt unit just paid for themselves so my riptides can have free reign.
I'm genuinely curious what you would consider a "good" save then because a grunt infantry unit that costs about 250pts having a 4+/5++ probably sounds pretty darn good to most armies...considering terminators only get a 5++ beyond their 2+ and cost a heck of a lot more than 9pts. (something like 12pts if you factor the drone?). Does something need a rerollable 2++ before you consider it "good"?
About markerlights. Tau are a synergistic army and markerlights are there where/when you need them to support your goals for whatever turn. Again, please do not take this unit in a vacuum and wave a "crap" wand at it, even my riptides use ML support. Heck, I remember when playing Tau meant that I had to pay the Firewarrior tax so that I had a chance of even coming close to winning a game; just left them in the devilfish and hoped for the best. Even with a bare BS3, these guys will do damage and they have target and task options with the deployable turret and emp grenades; this makes them a bit more flexible in combat role than a base FW for about the same cost.
Yes, I agree the gun's range sucks but marine players are going to cry about even the 5". It would have been easier to make them a sort of upgraded carbine with 18" the S6AP3 coming in to play at 9" OR make it the full 18" and choice of S5AP5 or S6AP3 gets hot.
I'm willing to give them a try before I poop all over them, heck I've got some FWs with carbines that I hardly use, I could sub them before I buy the kit and see if I like them.
I may have missed it. What FOC slot do these guys fit into? If it's fast, I take everything back and I'll jump on the "suck" bandwagon because they compete with too much; if they're troops, I can see using a unit of them.
AtoMaki wrote: All you need is 10 Breachers and a Devilfish with a D-Pod. That's 8 MEQ wounds off the table right there, everything else is just icing on the cake. The whole unit is 185 points. No need to go overboard, this unit simply doesn't require it.
I'd like to point out again, that this still requires getting within 5" range. I'm not saying it can't work, but it's something your opponent probably won't make the mistake of twice.
Well, let's see: start with Devilfish, move forward 12", Flat Out for +6". If the enemy shoots at you, Jink for a 3+ Cover Save. Next Turn, you can move 6", disembark for an additional 6", and bang, you have just covered 30", you should have something in the 5" range at this point. But even without closing-in for a Turn, you are looking at a 17" effective range with move+disembark.
This is actually an amazingly well designed unit. It has real strengths and weaknesses. A unique purpose and fits it's fluff purpose.
IMO a lot of what will determine whether this unit is amazing or just decent will be the support characters and the cost of the transport. If those stay the same as the current codex this unit will still be good to great. I really want to make a fish of fury army now. Seems like it could be pretty brutal.
I'd agree, except that it goes down to 4,0 past 10". If it stayed at 5,5 I would be all over these guys, but that really is a killer to me. They have to be at 10" to match the pulse rifle (a battlerifle). If they had pinning like carbines, that would help a lot. It means that they would not be automatically assaulted next turn by any models they didn't kill. Heck, even 4,5 at long range, and pinning would do. Then they would at least match bolters in firepower.
Putting it rather bluntly, these are Skitarii Vanguard without the FNP with a point less BS and instead getting a Drone option that gives them a 5+ Invul against things that would negate their armor save.
Additionally Breachers are going to be able to Overwatch to support friendly units, bring a turret with SMS/MP which cannot be assaulted/shot to the table any time the unit stops moving, and get Photon Grenades with the option to additionally purchase EMP Grenades.
Do Breachers cost more points than Vanguard? Yes. But guess what those Breachers aren't paying for?
Relentless and a 6+ FNP. There is literally nothing on the Breacher profile which is not bad.
Kanluwen wrote: Putting it rather bluntly, these are Skitarii Vanguard without the FNP with a point less BS and instead getting a Drone option that gives them a 5+ Invul against things that would negate their armor save.
Additionally Breachers are going to be able to Overwatch to support friendly units, bring a turret with SMS/MP which cannot be assaulted/shot to the table any time the unit stops moving, and get Photon Grenades with the option to additionally purchase EMP Grenades.
Do Breachers cost more points than Vanguard? Yes. But guess what those Breachers aren't paying for?
Relentless and a 6+ FNP. There is literally nothing on the Breacher profile which is not bad.
Uhm... The Skitarii Vanguard is more expensive than the Breachers (90 points vs 100 when maxed out models-wise), and the Vanguards have a lot more tricks (+1 WS/I/Ld, Imperatives, Rad-Saturation) but they lack the sheer base firepower the Breaches have. If you say that the Breaches and the Vanguard are comparable, then you are putting it very bluntly... to the point where the only things they do share are S3, T3 and a 4+ armor save .
Kanluwen wrote: Putting it rather bluntly, these are Skitarii Vanguard without the FNP with a point less BS and instead getting a Drone option that gives them a 5+ Invul against things that would negate their armor save.
Additionally Breachers are going to be able to Overwatch to support friendly units, bring a turret with SMS/MP which cannot be assaulted/shot to the table any time the unit stops moving, and get Photon Grenades with the option to additionally purchase EMP Grenades.
Do Breachers cost more points than Vanguard? Yes. But guess what those Breachers aren't paying for?
Relentless and a 6+ FNP. There is literally nothing on the Breacher profile which is not bad.
Uhm... The Skitarii Vanguard is more expensive than the Breachers (90 points vs 100 when maxed out models-wise)
You're right, that's my bad. I don't know why but I was using the 90 points for the full unit of 10 for Breachers in my head.
However it just makes Breachers that much more impressive.
and the Vanguards have a lot more tricks (+1 WS/I/Ld, Imperatives, Rad-Saturation) but they lack the sheer base firepower the Breaches have.
+1 WS is negligible on Vanguard. They bring no CCWs to the table aside from what the Alpha carries. Same thing goes with Initiative--negligible with no CCWs.
Imperatives are, at this juncture, one use Markerlights that have penalties if the wrong one is used.
If you say that the Breaches and the Vanguard are comparable, then you are putting it very bluntly... to the point where the only things they do share are S3, T3 and a 4+ armor save .
If you cannot understand the comparison between two units that are designed as short-ranged gun fighters in an army that can go absolutely bonkers with long ranged weapons, I cannot help you.
5,10 and 15 inch range is a weird one, never heard of anything with range in multiples of 5 before.
From a fluff perspective this unit makes sense to me, there must be times where the tau need to take a building intact without blowing it up and need to do some CQB and Kroot aren't available.
in game this unit will be all about how you deliver them, maybe the devilfish will get deepstrike to help them. It'd be expensive but I'd be tempted to put Shadowsun and Darkstrider in the unit with them. Shadowsun gives the unit stealth, shrouded and infiltrate, Darkstrider gives you scout, fighting retreat and -1 to targets toughness. You wouldn't have any trouble being in range first turn and with stealth, shrouded and fighting retreat they should be pretty survivable.
also in regards to getting charged, no ones going to want to charge you from 5", and that means assuming you're in terrain they'll always have at least an 8" charge before your S5 overwatch which is nice and if they fail the charge that's a very dead unit.
I'm actually a Tyranid player but I really like this unit, it seems far more balanced than the new units for the other armies, and it opens up quite a few new strategies for Tau players as well as a (relatively) cheap way to harden their gun lines against deep striking units. I can picture these holding an objective or being advanced along the board to force the opponent to divert some firepower or suffer significant losses.
Admittedly its also because I like the idea of an enemy that has to get within charging range of gaunt in order to fire
Nid MCs spawning mucalids in the movement phase?
IG dropping in weapons teams if needed?
#worried
IG have the this already in the fluff and I believe from FW in the form of the Tarantula sentry gun. I'm really curious as to whether or not devilfish will be getting a point drop to make feilding them loaded with breachers more appealing. I know a few tau plays that would make very happy.
Nid MCs spawning mucalids in the movement phase?
IG dropping in weapons teams if needed?
#worried
IG have the this already in the fluff and I believe from FW in the form of the Tarantula sentry gun. I'm really curious as to whether or not devilfish will be getting a point drop to make feilding them loaded with breachers more appealing. I know a few tau plays that would make very happy.
Tarantula Sentry Guns have none of the recycling abilities that the Breacher Squad turrets have. They're an Artillery classed unit that have special rules about being locked in combat(they can't be) and fighting back(they can't).
Additionally, based upon the mode you set them in or what they are armed with they engage certain kinds of targets.
Imperatives are, at this juncture, one use Markerlights that have penalties if the wrong one is used.
Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
Don't get me wrong I don't think breachers are bad for their cost, Im definately going to pick some up, I also don't think imperatives are imbalanced, but as someone that goes up against skitarii often, you really understate the value of imperatives. Don't believe me? Let a space marine, eldar, IG, Tau or Necron player use the same imperatives for a game, or even an orks, daemon or tyranid player, and watch the difference.
I wonder how Breachers would work with a Ghostkeel behind them for support. Breachers up front with an invul and become intervening models to give the Ghostkeel a better cover. Could be expensive, but might be a fun flanking unit. Not sure how well the Ghostkeels ability would work with it.
What would be really cool if the turret can change armaments from one turn to the next as it gets pulled up and redeployed. You would use the missile pod if put close to your backfield, then switch to the SMS system if the unit finds itself midfield at some point.
Nid MCs spawning mucalids in the movement phase?
IG dropping in weapons teams if needed?
#worried
IG have the this already in the fluff and I believe from FW in the form of the Tarantula sentry gun. I'm really curious as to whether or not devilfish will be getting a point drop to make feilding them loaded with breachers more appealing. I know a few tau plays that would make very happy.
Tarantula Sentry Guns have none of the recycling abilities that the Breacher Squad turrets have. They're an Artillery classed unit that have special rules about being locked in combat(they can't be) and fighting back(they can't).
Additionally, based upon the mode you set them in or what they are armed with they engage certain kinds of targets.
Ah, I was just going off the fact that they at A. automated turrent and B. Fluffise commonly dropped onto the battlefield. No rules were actually taken into account. Though I would love the see something like that in a future IG dex.
Imperatives are, at this juncture, one use Markerlights that have penalties if the wrong one is used.
Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?
I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.
Don't get me wrong I don't think breachers are bad for their cost, Im definately going to pick some up, I also don't think imperatives are imbalanced, but as someone that goes up against skitarii often, you really understate the value of imperatives. Don't believe me? Let a space marine, eldar, IG, Tau or Necron player use the same imperatives for a game, or even an orks, daemon or tyranid player, and watch the difference.
I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.
However I also know that, as I said, they have penalties if the wrong one is used at the wrong point in the game.
If I use the +3 Ballistic Skill Imperative(which I can only use once per game unless I field a War Cohort) against an Assault army that is going to be able to Charge me during their turn, and I do not shoot them off their Assault units off the board in my Shooting turn?
My units are going to be at -2 WS for the duration of their Assault phase.
Nid MCs spawning mucalids in the movement phase?
IG dropping in weapons teams if needed?
#worried
IG have the this already in the fluff and I believe from FW in the form of the Tarantula sentry gun. I'm really curious as to whether or not devilfish will be getting a point drop to make feilding them loaded with breachers more appealing. I know a few tau plays that would make very happy.
Tarantula Sentry Guns have none of the recycling abilities that the Breacher Squad turrets have. They're an Artillery classed unit that have special rules about being locked in combat(they can't be) and fighting back(they can't).
Additionally, based upon the mode you set them in or what they are armed with they engage certain kinds of targets.
Ah, I was just going off the fact that they at A. automated turrent and B. Fluffise commonly dropped onto the battlefield. No rules were actually taken into account. Though I would love the see something like that in a future IG dex.
The funny part is a ton of the ideas I've been tossing around in my head or in conversation for Guard?
They seem to be showing up in the Tau Empire book. Might need to invest in some tin foil!
Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?
I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.
I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.
My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more? Skitarii have bs 4 base can use Binharic Omniscience (Alpha) - +3 BS / -2 WS for BS 7 army wide; the following turn use Gundrill Symbiosis (Beta) - +2 BS / -1 WS for BS 6, the following turn use Hazard Optimization (Gamma) - +1 BS for BS 5. That's 3 turns of BS 5 or better. Lowering the WS of the skitarii is disadvantageous, but can be offset by building a primarily shooting list. Having the first 3 turns of the game (arguably the most important turns) of BS 5 or better army wide (without your opponent being able to prevent it outside of tabling you) is a rather strong ability. Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.
The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.
However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.
Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?
I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.
I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.
My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more?
Yeah, no I understand how that works. But do you understand the difference between, as you put it, "a cheap Relic" and the War Cohort formation?
Because the War Cohort formation is 3x Battle Maniple formations--which clock in at a pretty hefty amount of points. The War Cohort formation is an army, not a "cheap Relic".
Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.
Except that is EXACTLY what it is: One use Markerlights that cannot give Ignores Cover in an army with no Ignores Cover weaponry, period, within their list. They can subtract 2 points of Cover at maximum(Omnispex and if the target has suffered unsaved Wounds from Luminagen).
The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.
You know what else costs points?
Anything worthwhile. But aside from Psykers, there are no other units in the game besides Marker Drones and Pathfinders that exist solely for the purpose of synergy.
Pretending that the points cost of anything with Markerlights is excessively high or that they can be killed easily by any and all armies? That is disingenuous.
However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.
It's a Tau army.
Markerlights are present in the list. Period. One of the formations that has been shown(Armoured Interdiction Cadre) even had a perk that gave them free Markerlight hits as a formation bonus.
Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.
And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.
And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.
One thing I never understood, is why there aren't more lists that have "hidden" Markerlights, as opposed to direct Markerlights. Things like the Fireblade have split fire with a Markerlight, the Skyray obviously has them, and you can do some fun tricks with Commander Suit groups using Target locks to get a lot of extra Markerlights on units other than those you are shooting at. It just seems weird that so many people use dedicated units to gain Markerlights as opposed to gaining them in other areas with better BS and survivability.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.
And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.
One thing I never understood, is why there aren't more lists that have "hidden" Markerlights, as opposed to direct Markerlights. Things like the Fireblade have split fire with a Markerlight, the Skyray obviously has them, and you can do some fun tricks with Commander Suit groups using Target locks to get a lot of extra Markerlights on units other than those you are shooting at. It just seems weird that so many people use dedicated units to gain Markerlights as opposed to gaining them in other areas with better BS and survivability.
I beg to differ on this front. Yeah granted the occasional unit with a hidden markerlight is pointless as no-one wants a single markerlight hit. But the commander and target locked marker lights is an extremely common unit specially with Farsight Enclaves. My Commanders unit normally runs as follows:-
Commander w/ 2 x Missile Pod, Target Lock, Drone Controller, 2 x Marker Drones
3 x XV8's w/ 2 x Missile Pods each & 4 x Marker Drones
This averages 5 marker hits whilst keeping 12 BS3 and 4 BS5 S7 ap4 shots free. Missile pods are a great weapon alongside marker drones due to range synergy. This unit is the absolute workhorse of my army.
Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?
I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.
I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.
My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more?
Yeah, no I understand how that works. But do you understand the difference between, as you put it, "a cheap Relic" and the War Cohort formation?
Because the War Cohort formation is 3x Battle Maniple formations--which clock in at a pretty hefty amount of points. The War Cohort formation is an army, not a "cheap Relic".
Yes I do understand the difference which is why my reply only listed 3 turns, not 4.
Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.
Except that is EXACTLY what it is: One use Markerlights that cannot give Ignores Cover in an army with no Ignores Cover weaponry, period, within their list. They can subtract 2 points of Cover at maximum(Omnispex and if the target has suffered unsaved Wounds from Luminagen).
No, the only similarity is BS boost, but comparing an armywide special rule that can be used to boost BS for the entire army (3 times guaranteed) to a purchasable support unit that can target one enemy (per unit purchased) is not exactly the same. Furthermore comparing the strengths and limitations of a 7 unit minidex to the strengths and limitations of an entire faction is disingenuous. When I picked up harlequins I knew it'd be limited and never expected every faction to be balanced around it. My Harlies have yet to beat my friends blood angels (too many podding flamers and storm ravens) I don't think blood angels are broken because of it. Of course if they did make harlequins, militarum tempestus, and skitarii fully fledged books with complete FoC, special characters etc etc, I would love that... but that's not the case. Not that I'm saying tau don't have balance problems, they do, but using a minidex as the standard to balance the Tau is a mistake.
The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.
You know what else costs points?
Anything worthwhile. But aside from Psykers, there are no other units in the game besides Marker Drones and Pathfinders that exist solely for the purpose of synergy.
Anything worthwhile but doctrina imperatives you mean? Yes this is my point, obviously breachers+pathfinders will be better than just one unit of vanguards, they cost more and should be better. Also Yes, pure synergy units may be unique, but that isn't a problem in and of itself so long as they are balanced (which admittedly I don't really think they are, hence why I agree with your changes to them). Every faction should have certain things that make them distinct.
Pretending that the points cost of anything with Markerlights is excessively high or that they can be killed easily by any and all armies? That is disingenuous.
I never pretended either one of these things, only that they cost more than nothing, and that they can be killed. Neither of which is true for doctrina imperatives. which is the comparison you invited. You asked what the disadvantages were for markerlights and I listed them. Not once did I claim they were excessively costed, or easily killed by all armies, if they were both they would never be taken competitively.
However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.
It's a Tau army.
Markerlights are present in the list. Period. One of the formations that has been shown(Armoured Interdiction Cadre) even had a perk that gave them free Markerlight hits as a formation bonus.
This is erroneous. Markerlights are not mandatory. nor do I always include them. Not everyone is as competitive as possible, and if they are they don't play skitarii, they play IoM with skitarii. Comparing a competitive-as-possible Tau (an entire faction unto themselves) list to a casual mono-minidex (which by virtue of being a minidex without allies is casual by default) list is not a fair comparison.
Now before you hit reply, I can't stress this enough, I don't think it should be this way. In my idealized version of 40k, minidexes would be fully fleshed out to stand alone competitively. Unfortunately that's just not the case. The Tau codex should not be balanced around the limitations of you're skitarii codex, any more than blood angels should be balanced around the limitations my harlequins. This is a fault of the limited format of the minidexes.
If you say that the Breaches and the Vanguard are comparable, then you are putting it very bluntly... to the point where the only things they do share are S3, T3 and a 4+ armor save .
If you cannot understand the comparison between two units that are designed as short-ranged gun fighters in an army that can go absolutely bonkers with long ranged weapons, I cannot help you.
Well, it doesn't change the fact that literally the only things they share are Strength, Toughness and their Armor Saves. Not even their unit options have any resemblance. The Vanguard is more comparable to the IG/AM Grenadier Veterans if anything as they are primarily a special weapon platform. Hell, the Vanguards have more in common with Carbine-equipped Fire Warriors.
If the Vevilfish somehow gets deepstrike in the new codex (and with those massive engines it totally should) then Breachers will be awesome, about to take out anything with a 3+ in a volley or 2 from a couple of squads on the drop.
Can some one please verify something on the charge rules against these guys. I have read in several different comment sections people saying "keep them at 6 inches and charge from there don't have to worry about overwatch at ap3". But isn't this irrelevant as thye are charging in so they are coming closer to 5 inches anyway. Wouldn't it be treated like Wall of death rules where it says not to bother measuring the template because it its successful charge then it doesn't matter anyway and if they fail its as if the flames caused them to turn back anyway?
jreilly89 wrote: Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though
Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?
Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.
jreilly89 wrote: Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though
Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?
Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.
jreilly89 wrote: Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though
Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?
Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.
It is just for convenience. Assault is the only weapon type that allows full-range high-RoF after move, so the pulse blaster ended up as an Assault weapon. Same as with the pulse carbine (another Assault weapon), really.
jreilly89 wrote: Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though
Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?
Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.
Okay, and?
The options are Assault(Move and Fire with no Penalties), Heavy(Stationary fires as normal, Move+Fire becomes Snap Shots) Rapid Fire(no penalties for Moving and Fire; additional shot when at half of your weapon's range and inability to Charge in the following Assault phase), and Salvo(Move and Fire up to half maximum range at the cost of shots, or stay stationary and fire additional shots at up to the weapon's maximum range and cannot Charge in the Assault phase in any regards).
Of those, the only one which actually does not penalize the unit significantly from acting in the role they gave it(short range skirmisher and objective holder) is Assault.
Mutt52 wrote: Can some one please verify something on the charge rules against these guys. I have read in several different comment sections people saying "keep them at 6 inches and charge from there don't have to worry about overwatch at ap3". But isn't this irrelevant as thye are charging in so they are coming closer to 5 inches anyway. Wouldn't it be treated like Wall of death rules where it says not to bother measuring the template because it its successful charge then it doesn't matter anyway and if they fail its as if the flames caused them to turn back anyway?
Number of shots fired in Overwatch is determined from where the target starts the charge.
EDIT: Forgot units can't charge out of transports. Regardless, Assault weapons are unarguably better to have than any other weapon type regardless of whether you want to make use of being able to charge afterwards or not.
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Gamgee wrote: Back to sucking I see. I got a feeling our codex is going to be absolutely bad. Formations might not save the shanking we're taking here.
Think of Assault as the 'default' Weapon Type, given to anything lacking a specific bonus or common penalty.
Going to be just as puzzled over the whole 'take a beating' comment as well, Tau are in no danger of slipping off the High-Tier list any time soon. They might be trying a few new ideas with the Tau, and definitely trying to grab some more dollars through larger battle suit models, but it would take a lot more then that to seriously cripple them. The base codex would have to be completely re-written, for the worse, before we can say the Tau have been shanked by Game Workshop.
I'm in agreeance with tau being "milked" as it were. As Jinx said, barring a full rewrite with massive nerfs or point hikes Tau will retain their position. Now if they follow the trend of having points lowered and getting access to squadron benefits, I am curious how people will feel then.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like there will be a nerf to me, but it doesn't really feel like a buff either. From what we've seen so far, they are looking pretty balanced. I'd say they will probably stay upper-mid tier. Which is only a good thing IMO. The more balanced armies the better. And this way I don't have to hear quite as many people complain about tau.
Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...
Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm
Seriously folks, objectives with MEQ on them are a thing, sorta everywhere 40k is played... how are you not connecting the dots?!
...and its not like you lost anything to get them. I'd take this weapon in a second for my Marines
Lobukia wrote: Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...
Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm
Seriously folks, objectives with MEQ on them are a thing, sorta everywhere 40k is played... how are you not connecting the dots?!
...and its not like you lost anything to get them. I'd take this weapon in a second for my Marines
Pretty much exactly my thoughts on the situation. I mentioned earlier in another thread that any Space Marine player would take these in their army list due to having Drop Pods. I'm still a bit tentative on rating them one way or the other though as we really need to see what buffs (if any) the Devilfish gets. Considering that 7th Edition codices have mostly buffed the units that were previously never seen/didn't sell well - of which both apply to Devilfishes - I'm betting they'll get a big update, which will in turn make Breachers a popular unit. The fact that we are talking about a Troops choice that is designed to be a close-ranged objective-taker for Tau is just.....great. Varying their builds and making them actually move around as they should by their fluff will be great to play against from a Loyalist perspective.
Lobukia wrote: Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...
Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm
Hey, check your sarcasm dude... pulse blasters are Strength 6 AP3 Assault 2 when they are close enough to the target !
Their fate is pretty much all up to the devilfish. If it gets the price drop it's needed for the last 2 codexs, this units could be solid. If not, well, than this unit is just not worth it. Not bad, but not as efficient as our other choices.
Lobukia wrote: Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...
Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm
Hey, check your sarcasm dude... pulse blasters are Strength 6 AP3 Assault 2 when they are close enough to the target !
Good catch, and Str 6 is significantly better than Str 5 vs MEQ and TEQ units.
I so hope the new Devilfish rules make them viable
Caederes wrote: EDIT: Forgot units can't charge out of transports. Regardless, Assault weapons are unarguably better to have than any other weapon type regardless of whether you want to make use of being able to charge afterwards or not.
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Gamgee wrote: Back to sucking I see. I got a feeling our codex is going to be absolutely bad. Formations might not save the shanking we're taking here.
Err?
Tau are struggling? They regularly wipe the floor with everything short of Eldar. Out shooting them is impossible and getting close enough to assault is a joke. The only armies capable of fighting them are Necrons (durability) Eldar (Scatspam and Wraithbrigade) and Space Marines (Droppod spam and Skyhammer)
If almost any MEQ squad gets within 5" of them, though, they are dead. Takes what, 2-3 Marines to beat all 10 of them in CC?
15 if you count the bolt pistol shots too and disregard Overwatch. 5-6 should be enough to win the combat and kill the Breachers from Sweeping Advance though.
master of ordinance wrote: If they get within 5" of almost any enemy infantry they are goiing to remove them.
Not quite. 8.33 wounds on meqs (assuming 10 man squad, all able to get within 5"). But that's only looking at one side, not any shots heading towards them. Base they are no more survivable than FWs, although they can be more survivable against AP4- if they get the shas'ui+drone combo (I think that's 24 points total). So, again, whether they end up being good or not relies very much on their delivery method. If the devilfish is good in the next book, these will definitely be an option. If the devilfish is not, than these will be very situational.
master of ordinance wrote: Tau are struggling? They regularly wipe the floor with everything short of Eldar. Out shooting them is impossible and getting close enough to assault is a joke. The only armies capable of fighting them are Necrons (durability) Eldar (Scatspam and Wraithbrigade) and Space Marines (Droppod spam and Skyhammer)
Don't worry, you play IG. That means that you can't ever loose, because IG are as points efficient as an army of Wraithnights.
I would very much like to see Devilfish get a points drop. I think it's a cool model, but one that doesn't see much use due to how inefficient it is for its point cost and lack of anything great to deliver. Breachers fill the second role, now all we have to see about is the first.
The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.
If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.
Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?
Savageconvoy wrote: The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.
If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.
Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?
Savageconvoy wrote: The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.
If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.
Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?
Well, consider more than just the guns. I'm assuming that the loadout pictured in the article is the standard fluffwise, with the turret, one guard drone and one gun drone. (I believe this is also the reason for having max ten models, like pathfinders designed for drones and a devilfish) But consider the unit with the above drones, the turret, and a devilfish. Their role is to advance and camp an objective towards the middle of the field. If their are no nearby enemies when they disembark, they pop up their turret. Otherwise, they want to move in close. It might seem bad for Tau, but if you move within five inches, you get 10 anti-meq shots, and one twin-linked pinning carbine shot. They will not be that bad on the enemy turn, with the possibility of pinning last turn, more MEQ killing overwatch, and the 6+ invuln from the drone. I think part of why Tau players are disappointed is because it requires new tactics, and a fresh playstyle. I myself will probably use them to take objectives and reinforce them with deepstriking suits. JMHO.
master of ordinance wrote: If they get within 5" of almost any enemy infantry they are goiing to remove them.
Not quite. 8.33 wounds on meqs (assuming 10 man squad, all able to get within 5"). But that's only looking at one side, not any shots heading towards them. Base they are no more survivable than FWs, although they can be more survivable against AP4- if they get the shas'ui+drone combo (I think that's 24 points total). So, again, whether they end up being good or not relies very much on their delivery method. If the devilfish is good in the next book, these will definitely be an option. If the devilfish is not, than these will be very situational.
Another thing to take into account is marines often being in five man combat squads. If that's the case, then on average the breachers just wipe them out. Take into account the devilfish that they rolled up in also pumping rounds into the squad and even if its ten marines there is a good possibility the breachers won't be faced with return fire, let alone a charge as there will be nothing left.
I drool at the though of IG shotguns getting this kind of love.
master of ordinance wrote:
Speaking as Imperial Guard, yes
What do guard have that are even concerned with 6/3 shots?
Is this a problem you're having currently with Pulse Carbines in Devilfish rushing?
Selym wrote:Speaking as Templars - Yes.
Not familiar with Templar. But is it really hard to slow down an AV12 skimmer? Especially if it's moving in close. Do Templar have limited access to drop pods, bikes, thunderfire cannons, and things like that?
It is when said skimmer has a 3+ cover save. At this point, grav is the only answer - but it can only Wreck the Devilfish, so the Breachers can hop out 10" away from the attackers and shoot them next turn into pieces.
Not familiar with Templar. But is it really hard to slow down an AV12 skimmer? Especially if it's moving in close. Do Templar have limited access to drop pods, bikes, thunderfire cannons, and things like that?
Well, you only really play Templars for fluff, and that involves a lot of melee and LR rushing. Turn 1 from the Tau these days is happily able to take out my Raiders. Leaving me to close in on foot...
Alternativley, I can go the route of Bikers. Which exacerbates the issue when fighting Tau.
If I really wanted, I could go for Drop Pods, which are the least efficient form of Black Tide, and result in my crusaders standing in the open like a bunch of wallies for a turn, while the Tau unload or use Interceptor to prevent the landing. Followed up by half of my forces arriving sporadically through the 2nd to 4th turn, and then having no ground mobility.
I know that I have always had a hard time dealing with heavy armor. Only reliable answer was suicide fusion suits.
Hammerheads I've had such horrible luck with that I haven't even bothered trying to bring them anymore.
Riptide with a Nova'd IA is something my opponents want to see. It forces me to shoot at something with a shot that has 2 chances to wound my own unit and then has the chance to scatter off target.
For me I've taken Interceptor on a lot of units, but to me it's only been useful in the deployment phase. I never bother shooting units with it unless it's something that just lands right in the open.
What generally happens is that I tell an opponent I have interceptor on things and then he either avoids keeping units in reserves or when he does put them in reserve he goes really out of his way to keep them out of LOS when they hit the board.
There isn't really a way to buff interceptor shots. So I generally prefer letting what ever land and then shooting next turn. But it always makes my opponent change his deployment plans.
You'd have a much better time against me, I think. I have infamously bad rolls for vehicles.
-Going over terrain? I WILL get immobilized, Dozer Blades or no.
-Lone Lascannon equivalent? It'll take out three vehicles, and I'll fail to kill it all game.
On snap shots I've gotten 1/36 shots to hit. Unit of missile suits shooting at a storm raven from the rear twice, once with a re-roll.
I've taken two hammerheads in a small tournament and went all the way to the 3rd round, in the 4th turn until I finally managed a penetrating hit. All vehicles were 11-12 in armor value and saves were being made left and right.
I even had a bad record against BA in 6th because I could never take down a storm raven (literally 0 storm raven kills the entire edition) and my opponent would make just about every FNP roll.
I even used the IA against standard BA, but somehow I managed to scatter onto a non-ml unit so no cover reduction. Basically if I'm rolling scatter, it's always going to be box cars.
I have an odd relationship with scatter. If its a Battlecannon, it'll either not hit anything, or it'll be a perfect hit but no kills.
If its Deep Strike, I'll usually land within running distance of where I need to be.
I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
There are some uses for them, and honestly I would probably take a unit or two of them depending on the Devilfish cost.
If you're playing against an aggressive opponent with a fast list, just keep them in reserve and bring them in to clear the backfield. If they come in too early, just put them where they can try and slow the enemy down or even funnel the unit in your favor.
If you're going against a more static enemy you can use them along with a ghostkeel to try and press a flank and secure an objective. Deploy the missile drone for some extra ranged firepower.
I don't think these are really bad. I think there are some decent ways to use them in addition to standard firewarriors. While not fast themselves, there are plenty of units that can be used along with them to help secure a good rush. While not having incredible range, they can be kept in reserve to at least make your opponent reconsider storming your deployment zone as fast he can.
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
Stay classy, Dakka!
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Using that logic you can't say they're good either because they may make them 20 ppm in the codex and change FW to 5 ppm and make the pulse rifle an Assault 5 D weapon.
People are using what they know and what's been given. We know the devilfish has been overcosted for two editions. We know that changes between codexes can be any where from little change, lack luster, or insanely good in a bad way.
So either we let people have opinions that they are bad, or we just don't discuss them at all until everything is out.
Kanluwen wrote: Or, better yet, we discuss them while acknowledging the caveat that we don't have the "big picture" yet.
Why not just assume that when someone says "I think this looks like trash" we assume they mean it with the implied "from what I know currently" rather than making someone say it each time and then calling them out on it when they don't?
I haven't heard any mention that the pulse blasters are replacing carbines, other than the FW/Breachers being a dual kit. So they may be a dual kit with 3 weapon options. Really I think the carbines look almost exactly like the blasters.
Which would make Pathfinder really interesting if they got those instead of the old carbines.
I plan on using a unit of ten in a devilfish. I already have a ten man unit of FW with carbines for some inexplicable reason and due to how close they look, I will simply use them. I tend to play in your face army lists so these will fit in nicely with what I have planned. Who knows, they could replace my other fire warrior squad if they end up doing well. If anything it gives me a reason to paint them up.
Kanluwen wrote: Or, better yet, we discuss them while acknowledging the caveat that we don't have the "big picture" yet.
Why not just assume that when someone says "I think this looks like trash" we assume they mean it with the implied "from what I know currently" rather than making someone say it each time and then calling them out on it when they don't?
Why not just realize that maybe people need to stop putting out such definitive and absolute statements when we have absolutely no idea as to how the book is changing?
And it really isn't hard to post something to the effect of "As of right now, <insert previewed unit here> is not that impressive" instead of the crap that gets posted every.single.time. we get a White Dwarf preview of a unit from a forthcoming Codex.
I haven't heard any mention that the pulse blasters are replacing carbines, other than the FW/Breachers being a dual kit. So they may be a dual kit with 3 weapon options. Really I think the carbines look almost exactly like the blasters.
Eh. Only on the Fire Warriors, because the Fire Warrior Carbines don't have the top-mounted Markerlight.
Additionally, the only Fire Warriors that have been seen with Carbines was the Fire Warrior Strike Team.
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Yes, you need to see the entire codex, because if a devilfish suddenly costs 60 and can disembark troops after going 12" (highly unlikely event), then the breachers will be freaking terrifying.
If their wargear piece does anything else BUT improve the drone's effect, it might be stronger.
If markerlights can now extend ranges, again-you got a powerful combo.
If they can get pulse accelerator drones, they might change the unit entirely.
Ehtreals? they got changed every edition so far. maybe a new variation of them makes them good with breachers?
Fireblades? darkstrider? who knows if they improve and if they will mesh up with breachers (and don't tell me "but fireblades only help when you don't move-THIS MIGHT CHANGE)
Etc, etc, etc. there are many changes that can make or brake a unit, just like how the ghost's "fire team" rule that we don't yet know may make it's apparently unimpressive offensive abilities into something to be reckoned with.
Point is, with any codex its hard to know just how good a unit is before seeing what units it can interact with.
And considering tau are notorious for cross-unit interactions, wargear pileups and oddlot combinations, its even harder to tell with them just how useful things will be.
Too many different parts in the codex just might move in the right way that turns a unit, ANY unit, into the new powerhouse, or nerfs a current powerhouse into oblivion.
Correct. That's if the rules as they are now are even the same as what they will be in the new codex. It could be they are just given temporary rules until the actual codex drops.
As far as the models go, I think they are all fairly decent. I plan on getting a ghost keel and giving it a smoothed cockpit instead of a head, like what I've done with my Riptides. The drone turret looks awesome, and I wish they would have made those into a kit.
Honestly, who wouldn't take a unit made entirely of drone turrets. I know they can't move, but they just look so fun.
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
Caederes wrote: I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
If Tau had access to drop pods I would imagine most Tau players would love them too. They aren't bad but what will make or break them is whether the new codex gives them an effective and point efficient means of delivering them where they need to be. Currently, the devilfish is not that. Personally, I'm reserving judgement on the breachers until we see the new codex. Formation bonuses, possible changes to units (like the devilfish), and markerlights, will have a huge impact on their competitive viability. Depending on the rest of the codex, these could be the new staple, the next vespids, or something in between. Only time will tell.
On a separate note, I do like the way the models look and will be picking up at least one unit for that reason alone.
I really really dislike comments like "I wish I had X unit to put in my drop pods"
You can say that about any infantry unit. Everyone would love to put any infantry into drop pods for super cheap and deepstrike them anywhere without much fear of mishaps. Because the drop pod is pretty amazing for what it does.
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
Competitive ones do. This is like taking a power sword to a melee and trying to convince yourself that it is properly priced.
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
You are correct, I was joking. And at the same time I wasn't. In their own vacuum they probably rock. As for getting close to the enemy, why would I want that as Tau?? It is the range of their weapon that is putting me off.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
No, I wasn't. Thanks for trying.
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Painful to address each sentence with a mobile device. I stress again, it is the range of their weapon that limits their usability. I suppose if they worked the way GW maybe thinks they work, I just might field them. Now on the other hand if they synergise well with the walking wall.. But again the real killer is their inability to melee and that you need to get right next to the enemy, most likely on their terms even, that I find them not to be worth my while.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
The vast majority of competitive deathstars have 2+ in the front for tanking hits from weapons just like these, or a 3++. A 2++ is usually from cover, which unless the markerlights change drastically, shouldn't be a big deal.
Mainly, the problem with these weapons is, as most people have stated, their targets and devilfish requirement. There aren't many targets in the game that can't kill these guys if they foot it, and the devilfish is overcosted.
If the devilfish changes dramatically for the better, I can see these guys being good. Not good enough that I'll buy them, but not bad!
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
I don't know how much of a joke it was. Rough Riders hit pretty hard, but can't reach the enemy safely to do it. Unless the devilfish changes, that will be the case for these guys as well.
Tau really lack the ability to do armor saturation, most of their tanks are just ok or flat out bad. It isn't like marines or DE where the field is filled with them, or Eldar where the WS is very sturdy and a great tank.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
I don't remember anyone saying any of these sucked as far as gameplay is concerned, save the skyray (was that good? I don't own one and nobody uses it).
A lot of people said the models sucked (Centurions especially) and that these models were bad for the game, but not many people though that Riptides launching huge blasts with AP 2 were bad, or fateweaver buffing absurdly was sucking. Warp Spiders were known to be good at release. I own a huge collection of them from 3rd edition and got really excited when they were spoiled.
Really, 40k isn't a game where units have secret uber powers that are found out later. Sometimes the opposite happens (demon summoning) but there aren't many hidden gems in this game. Plenty of false gold though.
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Large is a bit much. Nobody thought wraiths were bad or the WS was bad (save morgoth). 40k is a pretty simple game when it comes to determining power levels.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Well, yes. With drop pods they would be amazing. The problem with Breachers is that the tau army as a whole doesn't operate at their ranges (currently) so they are going to be all by themselves in rapid fire range, or acting as a counter puncher. Their transport is, again currently, crap and has been for a while now. If the Tau had Waveserpents, Drop pods, Rhinos these things would be golden. Then again, if marines had all plasma guns on every solider as an option they'd be good too. So...its pointless to wishlist for stuff like that, or discuss it as if it makes a unit viable in any way.
Formations are, of course, a wildcard. My FLGS bans formations since they seem to be broken or awful, with not a lot of middle ground between them. But a formation granting +6" of range to all Tau weapons or some other rule would make these a lot better.
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