i'm not getting a strong WWII or Fantasy vibe from these guys...
aside from the Thompson on the Orc Sergeant, and the sub-machine gun on the Feldwebel, i'm getting more of a Weird War I vibe, which is new and fresh...
i hope these guys do well, because the sculpting quality is great!!!
i'm not getting a strong WWII or Fantasy vibe from these guys...
aside from the Thompson on the Orc Sergeant, and the sub-machine gun on the Feldwebel, i'm getting more of a Weird War I vibe, which is new and fresh...
i hope these guys do well, because the sculpting quality is great!!!
cheers
jah
These are very much WW2 uniforms and weapons. SMGs, LMGs, Piats and so on. French uniform looks very outdated because it was. But the theme is definitely correct.
I actually really like the orks. They're more how I would've wanted the Mantic Marauders to look. I might have to back this. I'm really curious about what race will represent the Soviets.
i'm not getting a strong WWII or Fantasy vibe from these guys...
aside from the Thompson on the Orc Sergeant, and the sub-machine gun on the Feldwebel, i'm getting more of a Weird War I vibe, which is new and fresh...
i hope these guys do well, because the sculpting quality is great!!!
cheers
jah
These are very much WW2 uniforms and weapons. SMGs, LMGs, Piats and so on. French uniform looks very outdated because it was. But the theme is definitely correct.
They do look pretty cool though.
i get what you are saying...
i'm just talking about the vibe i get from looking at the models, versus something like FoW or Bolt Action, where the WWII vibe is unquestionable...
it all says WWI trench warfare to me, which is not a bad thing...
Not sure if they're trying to say anything there...
I thought the early facebook concepts has the Poles as Troglodytes ? I guess it may have changed as development went on as the US is a big market and probably need some representation early in the game
I was not part of the AVP kickstarter, but seeing how that has turned out has turned me off any KS where Prodos is involved. The fact that AVP, arguably their highest profile project to date, isn't even mentioned as part of their resume on the KS page speaks volumes to me.
Shame because the minis by Hystetical look well done and unique.
CURNOW wrote: Love them but not going anywhere near a prodos kickstarter
This isn't a Prodos kickstarter. Prodos are casting the miniatures, which is something that they appear to be able to do in a timely manner. There also aren't any licensing issues.
CURNOW wrote: Don't fool yourselves this is 100% prodos . Byer beware!
Given that I have 3 Warzone forces; buyer beware of what? The initial miniatures were very badly cast but that is long behind them now. There are no licensing issues and the Dwarves at least exist in physical form as there is a photo of a painted squad floating about, this project is hardly going to be vapourware.
CURNOW wrote: Don't fool yourselves this is 100% prodos . Byer beware!
Given that I have 3 Warzone forces; buyer beware of what? The initial miniatures were very badly cast but that is long behind them now. There are no licensing issues and the Dwarves at least exist in physical form as there is a photo of a painted squad floating about, this project is hardly going to be vapourware.
By all means mate, go in big. Give them lots of money and convince your friends to do likewise. If they get enough they might actually post out all the AvP Kickstarter orders and I'll finally get mine. I might even be lucky enough to get the actual Kickstarter version.
To be honest it doesn't. This isn't for a boxed game and all that's inherent problems, I won't be pledging lots of money and its a product that interests me.
I think since it's a separate business but only run by one not all of the prodos owners it's likely to be ok
enough of a connection that hysterical games will be able to 'sit' on top of production of their stuff so the money paid for it does not wander off into the general prodos coffers
but not a total overlap where 'saving' prodos if it does end up in terminal trouble over AvP and it's contract renewal for that might be a tempting priority
(and they do mention they've got an alternative caster lined up if prodos can't, for whatever reason, deliver
Great figures. I wish I had something to get them for.
As for the Prodos thing, I get it, but then again, they are not part of the AVP issue. These should be just cut and dried, get some cash and get some figures.
I don't like the 3d graphic/ no figure deal. I think its a bad way to do business, and gambling with already little good will does the Prodos brand a disservice.
I don't like the 3d graphic/ no figure deal. I think its a bad way to do business, and gambling with already little good will does the Prodos brand a disservice.
There is a video of the Dwarves on the KS page and they look just like their renders.
Supposedly the USA will be Elves, the USSR Dark Elves and Japan will be Goblins. Quite a dubious source though so...
Hang on so prodos are having to plan on getting another caster if they cease to exist and have spun off another company.
I smell a Rob Mealstrom to mierce moment on the horizon.
I bet an undelived AvP KS set that if fox pull the plug Prodos will disapear taking all obligations with them, but Hysterical Games will "buy" there premises and equipment.
Rob Alderman is involved with this KS and is a Prodos employee and Prodos are the manufacturer for this KS. That's it.
Way too much of this thread has been taken up by Prodos games rabble rousing. An element of caution is advisable due to possible fallout from the AvP KS and to a lesser extent the delayed Warzone KS but there are at least 2 threads concerning the AVP KS, there is no need for a third.
If you like these minis then wait for them to come out at retail you will get them sooner and cheaper than pledging and you wont have to put up with rob and prodos lies .
Rob is not an " employee " of prodos he is a partner and director using the same staff and equipment to produce these as were used to produce prodos stuff
People are reporting late missing orders from prodos for warzone orders too something like this could be used as final cash grab for a struggling company to clear personal debts before closing up .
I have zero trust in rob or anyone at prodos and people need to be aware of any risks before they make a decision to pledge or not .
Just for the record, I'm an employee of Prodos Games and a shareholder of Prodos Games - not a director.
I have been working on Panzerfauste with Steve for the past 2 years and Steve has been working on it (on and off) for 18. I've been a fan of it since I discovered it some 10 years ago and even wrote some mass battle rules in 2007!
Since I was 15 years old, I have been looking for experience wherever I can get it, in order to release this product, among others up my sleeve. I did work experience for Mongoose Publishing in 2005, I sculpted figures for Alternative Armies, I submitted articles to various magazines, ran a blog, ran a youtube channel, worked for Games Workshop in their UK retail chain and I obviously am currently employed as head of wholesale at Prodos Games. Why? Because I like talking to people and meeting people/building relationships...
I will hold my hands up and admit that Prodos Games has it's problems. I have NO SWAY at all in any business decisions made by Prodos Games and I am sure things would be very different if I did (for better or worse!).
Steve Blease (my business partner) has 25 years experience in the industry, from Alternative Armies, to Brigade Models, to Wessex Games. He's been a 'guru' for me for a long time. I trust him more than most.
All the artwork, development and rules have been paid for out of my own pocket for this game. It's actually a little insulting and upsetting to hear people saying it's someone else's project when so much of my own time and money has gone into it! I'd rather not (and shouldn't have to!), but I have all the invoices to prove it.
Finally, I know Prodos Games has its issues, so I have done all I can to ensure there is some failsafe in place. But really, if I thought Prodos were gonna go bust or whatever (stop paying my paycheque!) then I would get a job elsewhere. Why would I suffer for it?
Oh and to all the supporters, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I forgot how awesome Dakka Dakka can be, I've said some silly things in the past (I definitely referred to it as a Cesspit of vitriol and hate, which was meant as a joke, but didn't get taken as one and I head-desked when I realised what a buffoon I had been), but I like to think those that have actually met with me, worked with me, done business with me or just spoken to me understand that I am, at my heart of hearts - a genuine, pleasant and informative (my day to day boss would tell you a little too informative) person...
If you fancy checking out Companies House, please do. Hysterical Games and Prodos Games have nothing to do with each other, except an agreement to make our models. You'll notice I have another company called 'Raging Goblin Games' that was actually set up to be a private consultancy business, as I was looking at going solo and working for a variety of companies (Tor Gaming and Warploque Miniatures, to name a few!) but I decided that it wouldn't be steady enough at the time. I need to close it down, I just haven't gotten around to it.
So please, don't crush my dreams just yet. These are my dreams, not Prodos Games' ones.
Your dreams, like it or not, are intertwined with Prodos at this point. Your name as a 'employee and stockholder', the fact you post officially for Prodos, and the fact Prodos is currently fething us AvP backers frankly means many folks will consider what ever you touch tainted.
'Head-desking' means gak to me. Deliver what we paid for.
Would like to se where I ever said all anyway. Honestly, it is a typical Prodos deflection, I never used it but since Rob implied I did it shifts the conversation away from Prodos fething the KS backers.
- Rob, AVP is still an embarrassing uncertainty to its unfulfilled backers. Unfortunately some of the things you (as Prodos) have said haven't been taken well. I'm surprised Panzerfaust has launched on KS with you as the frontman before AVP Wave 1 has been completed. Just to avoid a lot of negative comments and speculation.
If Hysteria Games is your dream I hope the project makes enough cash so you don't have to deal with the AVP nightmare any more.
Please don't continue the mistakes here on dakka that your other company that also you're a part owner of and management in is (in)famous for. Mean what you say and say what you mean. If you didn't ship something, please don't say you did. If you're a part owner and director, please don't say you're not.
As someone who didn't back the AVP thing, the mess I've observed from the outside makes me not want to touch any project with Prodos' name anywhere on it. I frankly have no reason to trust them.
I didn't back AVP due to funds at the time, glad I missed that bullet. Now the only prodos model I have is the Blaine figure from KOW2, and its already bending under its own weight. Not to mention the huge gates and flash that I dealt with. I'll wait till retail...if I even bother then. Nice concept, but I trust this as much as I would trust Tony Reidy
Rob, you're quite welcome come over to the AvP thread and demonstrate the ethics you'll be employing in this new venture, letting us all honestly know what is going on with our backer rewards and why so many retail copies are being sent, with the option of returning them at the backers cost?
There has been a great deal of dishonesty displayed by Prodos, you have every opportunity to prove this doesn't apply to you also. So far you're not doing so.
It was the backers who are the victims, not Prodos. It's time you all realised that and stepped up.
@Warboss, yes, I haven't updated that for a while.
I was wrongly informed that I was being made a director, when in fact they actually just gave me shares. You can look it up on Companies House. No lies at all.
I'll edit my LinkedIn, but then it looks like I am hiding even more? Right? I don't mind either way, just tell me what to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Theophony wrote: I didn't back AVP due to funds at the time, glad I missed that bullet. Now the only prodos model I have is the Blaine figure from KOW2, and its already bending under its own weight. Not to mention the huge gates and flash that I dealt with. I'll wait till retail...if I even bother then. Nice concept, but I trust this as much as I would trust Tony Reidy
My advice there would be to contact customer services at Mantic for a replacement. I am sure they will provide one (which will have been provided by Prodos).
Finally, I know Prodos Games has its issues, so I have done all I can to ensure there is some failsafe in place. But really, if I thought Prodos were gonna go bust or whatever (stop paying my paycheque!) then I would get a job elsewhere. Why would I suffer for it?
That's very heartening to read because I have to be honest I was fearing the worst !
So many AvP KS backers are still waiting for their boxed set pledges, I just couldn't believe Prodos would do something that has been so damaging to their reputation unless it was absolutely necessary (i.e. "we have do this or go out of business")
I originally pledged on the AvP KS back when Poland was behind the Iron Curtain, but since the collapse of the USSR Prodos can no longer blame the Stasi for their over-keen border control on shipping the product out.
It's a shame that that KS will taint this one (it will), because Panzerfauste looks like an absolutely wonderful idea and there are some great looking sculpts in there.
While it is understandable that there would be some "AvP cross-posting" here due to the PRODOS connection, I'm going to have to ask that we stay on topic in this thread.
Again, the topic being the "Panzerfauste Kickstarter".
I suppose if 'new information' comes to light, it could be posted here - but maybe a separate thread in Dakka Discussions would be best if people wish to continue to discuss the Hysterical/Prodos connection?
Troglodytes, dwarves and gnomes kind of all look alike, what a curious choice given the range of fantasy characters! I wasn't expecting gelatinous cube Marines or whatever, but troglodytes was exactly no ones guess for the next race.
Yeah, they do all kind of look similar. That is a downside to this one. Hopefully they'll mix things up a bit with some more non-human looking races. Some Afrika Korps Gnolls could be cool. Or Russian lizardmen.
I guess you can say that but it all of them were painted and not just renders it would be different. You could say th same about most armies/chapters of space Marines or even bolt action armies. In renders and no colors everything looks about the same... Watching intently not on board yet but that's only because I would need someone to play against
There's an easily established track record combined with someone posting conflicting information (I'm not a Director even though my professional profile says that I am but I am part owner in the company in question through owning stock). Even if it weren't all of that, I'd shy away because the company in question is designated as the manufacturer...a company that is apparently unable to produce product that they themselves have been paid for; there's less guarantee here than usual with a KS just from that. If I back and the people running this, related to the questionable company, in good faith pay Prodos to produce their minis but they never actually are produced, I'm in the same boat as if it were Prodos running the KS from the beginning.
Nah, I'll hang onto the money and see if this stuff ever hits retail.
So, whilst the sculptors are working on getting the Troglodyte Command sculpted up, we thought you might like to see where the journey has come from.
Troglodyte Partizan, from the original Panzerfäuste Rulebook (1998) Troglodyte Partizan, from the original Panzerfäuste Rulebook (1998)
Many moons ago, a little black and white book was published, alongside a small range of Pewter figurines for Panzerfäuste from Wessex Games. Inside the original rulebook were a few basic sketches, to show what each race should look like. As you can see above, the Troglodytes were hairy, horned and rat-tailed. They were also exclusively Partisans... They are a bit different now, let me explain how we have come to this point.
A few years after this book came out, John Bell, a fan of the game, drew his own interpretation!
Troglodyte Fan art from John Bell Troglodyte Fan art from John Bell
The Troglodytes form the 'Polish' of Panzerfäuste, they are fighting a war against Dwarven invaders, in their mountainous home of Torg Baraz - an ancient Dwarf stronghold. We wanted to expand beyond them being purely partisans and gave them a deeply Eastern European, Slavic, flavour.
So, we found Will Beck, our lead artist. We gave him a brief and some rough outlines of what we wanted from the Trogs and away he went creating this enigmatic race.
Will's first page of sketches. Will's first page of sketches.
At this stage, I was still thinking that they should be near-enough all partisans. As you can see, the silhouette came quite easily. We actually had the idea that when they are underground, their eyes stretch open for the light, but they squint when they are above ground or in bright conditions.
Just so you can see how Will works, amazing referencing!
Surrounded by imagery from historical books, photographs from the internet and our random notes about the sizes of Troglodyte ears - Will started drawing the Troglodyte Infantry.
We think that the Troglodytes have ended up as one of the most characterful factions. With fabulous concept art, and wonderful sculpts (being worked on), we can see that they will shape up to be a great faction - all thanks to Will's excellent work!
Here's some of the renders that the sculptors have sent us this week for the Troglodytes.
NCO
Sniper
Radio Technician
As you can see, truly awesome concept art can lead to some truly awesome renders, which will lead to awesome models!
We hope you like what you see!
Let us know!
Cheers
Steve and Rob - Hysterical Games
Hi all, Prodos here just to be clear, Prodos is providing services of 3D and casting to several customers. One of them is Hysterical Games, and at this stage this is the only connection with us. Rob is our employee, same as Mark from World Forged Games (Devil's Run KS) was our business partner.
In bouh cases, Rob and Mark, wanted to find their own way into miniatures business, aside from Prodos.
As for fulfilling our own KS, the story is long, but to cut it to something short, we are providing services to make profit to cover waves of shipping we have committed to on AvP KS. The delays in development and several changes during development process went with costings beyond our expectations and now we are fixing it.
Regardless of what you may think about Prodos, without our services, more than 12 KS would be in deep trouble with miniatures casting.
There is a difference between Rob IS a current employee and Mark WAS a business partner. A current employe/stockholder/self claimed director running a KS for a different company and trying to downplay his connections is shady. Especially as he has actively been the mouth piece for Prodos.
CptJake wrote: There is a difference between Rob IS a current employee and Mark WAS a business partner. A current employe/stockholder/self claimed director running a KS for a different company and trying to downplay his connections is shady. Especially as he has actively been the mouth piece for Prodos.
Hi CptJake, just to straighten up the facts: Mark WAS our business partner when he was running his KS, however post KS, decided to leave the company and fulfill his KS (Devil's Run) on his own. In fact, not sure how he is going to managed with his wife casting 14k models, but that was his decision and it's his problem now.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Can you please go and spam somewhere else, perhaps in one of the other threads specifically dedicated to Prodos games?
I have been having a look at what little information there is on the Internet regarding the original Panzerfauste and it seems that the USSR are Dark Elves, USA are light Elves and Italians(its hard to tell due to the poor quality of the sculpts) are ratmen.
CptJake wrote: And the passive aggressive attack against a guy who did cut free from you.
Stay classy Prodos.
Can you please go and spam somewhere else, perhaps in one of the other threads specifically dedicated to Prodos games?
I have been having a look at what little information there is on the Internet regarding the original Panzerfauste and it seems that the USSR are Dark Elves, USA are light Elves and Italians(its hard to tell due to the poor quality of the sculpts) are ratmen.
He's not spamming, but informing people of a serious concern. I appreciate it as do others who have posted here. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are. The only person stifling the discussion of a "News and Rumors" thread on a DISCUSSION forum is you. If these guys or prodos had a leg to stand on in the debate they could dissway Cptjake and then he could stop posting, as it is there's nothing they can do to defend themselves so they tried to divert the conversation to a previous employee.
While it is understandable that there would be some "AvP cross-posting" here due to the PRODOS connection, I'm going to have to ask that we stay on topic in this thread.
Again, the topic being the "Panzerfauste Kickstarter".
I suppose if 'new information' comes to light, it could be posted here - but maybe a separate thread in Dakka Discussions would be best if people wish to continue to discuss the Hysterical/Prodos connection?
Its not as if there is a 210 page thread who's very purpose is to discuss Prodos and their AvP game.
On topic, which is becoming a rarity in this thread, the snail cavalry has been unlocked. I can;t say that I am enthusiastic about the concept.
While it is understandable that there would be some "AvP cross-posting" here due to the PRODOS connection, I'm going to have to ask that we stay on topic in this thread.
Again, the topic being the "Panzerfauste Kickstarter".
I suppose if 'new information' comes to light, it could be posted here - but maybe a separate thread in Dakka Discussions would be best if people wish to continue to discuss the Hysterical/Prodos connection?
Its not as if there is a 210 page thread who's very purpose is to discuss Prodos and their AvP game.
On topic, which is becoming a rarity in this thread, the snail cavalry has been unlocked. I can;t say that I am enthusiastic about the concept.
He was discussing the credability of the owner of the Kickstarter creator. If you believe it to be off the subject then press the MOD alert button and let them handle it.
Very interesting concepts to be sure. I like the mountain goat cavalry more than snail cavalry.
It is going to be hard to keep the peanut butter out of the chocolate here, but it would help if Hysterical Games was a tad less...hysterical in their actions at times!
From the KS comments section, posted by Steve Blease, who wrote the original rules and co-created the current KS.
As per first edition Italians are Rats (they will have a pre-Great Dwarven War civil war so will pinch some Spanish "hystery").
Americans are Light Elves but will be late to the game.
Turks, absolutely no idea at the moment.
Gnolls will probably be Yugoslav partisans...
Japanese will be a form of Goblin - this is such a generic term that will cover a number of different races but we will draw on regional mythology to make their own distinctive "goblins". Got some cool ideas here...
Romanians will be led by the Strigoi but I haven't fixed a subservient race (but they will not be zombies, I don't get vampires having armies they can't feed off...)
Of course a lot of this is all in the future (and some may change but not much, most has been nailed down for ages).
It's gonna be a long ride...
Also the next faction has been revealed, The Deathless. Supposedly they are some kind of 'White Russian' analogue but with added (Elven) zombies.
I'd like to see some Japanese Kappa or tengu. I think Kappa would be better as they are an aquatic race and tengu would mean needing rules for fighting fliers.
When everyone is a monster race and you if avoid the "Jews in space" trope (or "Jews in Hystery" in this case) I think you get a little bit of flexibility.
The Deathless are a breakaway faction of Dark Elves who practice necromancy. They will have Elven zombies, 'Lihko' deamons who man support weapons and 'Khort' deamons who act as officers while they are led by undead Dark Elf Witches.
The Russian Dark Elves will be a separate KS. The second KS would also include minor races such as Hungarian Ogres, Nordic Trolls and whatever they decide to do with Romania (Vampires+?)
If the current KS does very well the trolls may be released as a 6th race.
I think that there will eventually be 3 kickstarters. The current one which corresponds to the invasion of France and the Low Countries. The second one will Correspond to Barbarossa and the potential third one will deal with the pacific.
Hrm Italian Ratmen doesn't sound fantastic to me either. I like the whole monstrous race idea (Dwarves and Gnomes could do with looking a tad more ferocious) but maybe a lesser used animalistic monster. Gnolls?
I presume the Elves are like the stories of old and are either hauntingly, maddeningly gorgeous but very wrong or look like vicious terrifying bastards?
I presume the Elves are like the stories of old and are either hauntingly, maddeningly gorgeous but very wrong or look like vicious terrifying bastards?
The only Elf concept art so far are of the undead variety. They will probably be 'generic' Elves.
Alpharius wrote: Anyone have the latest country/fantasy race breakdown?
Aside from the confirmed races there are:
Italians - Ratmen
Hungarians- Ogres
Scandinavians - Trolls (possibly different types from not Norway, Sweden and Finland but that's a little dubious)
USA - Elves
Soviets - Dark Elves
Japanese - 'Goblins'
Romania - Vampires plus some kind of slave race
Yugoslavia (as it was) - Gnolls
Apparently there will be Ghurka Halflings as well.....
Alpharius wrote: And what are all the 'confirmed' nations/races?
(And thanks!)
By confirmed I mean the ones that have at least concept art (Orcs, gnomes, Dwarves, Trogs and Deathless). The list above are all taken from either the original Panzerfauste, KS comments or an interview that Hysterical games did with a German Youtuber (who has a hilarious comedy accent).
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder what the Dutch could be cast as.
Dykes, water, Beavers of course! Or ducks Or Sloths because they are all smoking weed
Before you get offended
Spoiler:
And yet he spoke German, once again showing that Hollywood is a pack of slowed idiots. It's a shame that gnomes have already been claimed by the French, because gnomes are also very much a Dutch thing:
It may come as a great surprise for many of you to hear that, due to a number of personal reasons, I have handed in my notice at Prodos Games. My last working day will be at Crisis in Antwerp on the 7th of November.
It's been a ride that's been both enjoyable and rocky in equal measure; teaching me to endure through thick and thin. I've dealt with overjoyed, humble and happy customers; as well as some that have been not quite so pleasant! I like to think that I have had a positive impact on all of Prodos Games' customers in one way or another.
I wish all of my colleagues the best of luck in the future.
Thanks!
Rob
P.s. I do realise communication isn't great, so I do answer emails (even if it takes a bit longer) on my email at rob.alderman@prodos.co.uk. Please feel free to email that address for help.
Does not having your day job affect the fulfillment of this Kickstarter, or are you starting another? And are Prodos still handling production of this project despite your departure?
The one thing that seemed odd to me was the fact that they'd be fine with you running this while working there, since it is in the same field and thus could be a direct competitor to some of their lines.
I hope this transition goes well for you, and if you could clarify the above that would be great!
@Vain: That email address will be forwarded to their new sales rep, when he starts. I don't want all those emails to end up in a black pit. I want someone to deal with it.
@RiTides: If anything, the fulfilment of this Kickstarter will be easier now that I do not work day-to-day for Prodos. As for working for Prodos whilst doing this, it's no different to Alessio working for Riverhorse, Mantic and Warlord; or Ches working for Footsore and Warlord... The list goes on!
Me leaving has been received perfectly well. The ball is in their court, so to speak.
Alpharius wrote: So PRODOS is still going to be making the miniatures to fulfill your Panzerfauste KS campaign?
I hope that there won't be any lingering...anythings that might make that road any bumpier than it will be to begin with!
Hi there, to be clear on this topic, we are in discussion to make models for Panzerfauste KS, nothing is set at this point in time.. We have however, sculpted 100+ models for this KS, but all the work was done on credit.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi there, to be clear on this topic, we are in discussion to make models for Panzerfauste KS, nothing is set at this point in time.. We have however, sculpted 100+ models for this KS, but all the work was done on credit.
Eek, if I was commissioning you guys I'd rather not have you posting publicly about whether the work was paid for or done on credit (unless there were some kind of issue, but even then, direct contact would be best).
It is great to hear that things are amicable and I hope all goes well for both parties!
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Hi there, to be clear on this topic, we are in discussion to make models for Panzerfauste KS, nothing is set at this point in time.. We have however, sculpted 100+ models for this KS, but all the work was done on credit.
Eek, if I was commissioning you guys I'd rather not have you posting publicly about whether the work was paid for or done on credit (unless there were some kind of issue, but even then, direct contact would be best).
It is great to hear that things are amicable and I hope all goes well for both parties!
Sir, nowadays retail sales/design/3D printing or any other service that makes revenue stream is always supplied on credit.
We only take upfron payment from customers that are starting business with us and we don't know them. Then it goes to at least 30 days credit.
That does not mean that Hyserical has no internal funds, it's just a normal business approach.
BrookM wrote: We have several of those books as well, they're well worth it just for the illustrations alone.
What books are those? I'd love to pick up some for my daughter (and me really).
Not sure how many of these have been translated, but there are several on gnomes, plus a few others with themes like horses, the Dutch hunting scenes and Dutch farm life.
Ah, I may have mis-spoken - my concern was not the method Hysterical is using to pay for the sculpts, but rather the way it was stated by WZR. I certainly didn't mean anything about them / their finances / etc! That should make sense, but if not, I'm honestly a bit sleep deprived these days
Just saw the video with the casts and they look quite good! Although obviously they're just test casts given that they haven't committed to Prodos for sure... but the models themselves are great.
Just saw the video with the casts and they look quite good! Although obviously they're just test casts given that they haven't committed to Prodos for sure... but the models themselves are great.
I wonder what Canada would be ( no doubt we will not see anything Canadian, as so many don't even register that we were in the war or just lump us with the UK instead of treating us as a separate nation for the war).
I could see very well why being rats for Italy would be considered very offensive perhaps not the most reasonable of choices? ( though a rat army is always cool in fantasy). Its just a very risky move doing even a ww1 / ww2 style fantasy setting , their is still a lot of rough feelings over it and could lead to a lot of losses in potential backers. Wouldn't mind seeing Canadians as Gnolls XD though they would probably make us beavers :/ and surprised to not see the Americans in here as of yet D:. Best of luck guys, it seems your doing very well however!.
Erebus Studios wrote: I wonder what Canada would be ( no doubt we will not see anything Canadian, as so many don't even register that we were in the war or just lump us with the UK instead of treating us as a separate nation for the war).
I could see very well why being rats for Italy would be considered very offensive perhaps not the most reasonable of choices? ( though a rat army is always cool in fantasy). Its just a very risky move doing even a ww1 / ww2 style fantasy setting , their is still a lot of rough feelings over it and could lead to a lot of losses in potential backers. Wouldn't mind seeing Canadians as Gnolls XD though they would probably make us beavers :/ and surprised to not see the Americans in here as of yet D:.
Whatever they come up with for Canada it better taste good with Mayo .
As for the quality of casts by Prodos...My poor Blaine and his Dino had serious gate issues and lots of flash. Also blaine seems to be too heavy for the poor dino's ankles as he is bending under the weight. I can fix most of the gate issues and got rid of the flash, I just set the model aside for the eventual need to drill through the leg of the dino and give him a metal internal brace to help with the weight. There were no bubbles though, so that's a plus.
Wow, this forum post is going totally the wrong way.
There are no Nazis in Panzerfauste.
The Dwarves are inspired by German tropes (beer drinking, a fondness for Pork based food and industrial ingenuity). They are led by a Kaiser and have a 'Imperial' structure.
Panzerfauste is meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
Our elves are Light Elves (American) and Dark Elves (Russian). The Dark Elves are not evil, they just have different opinions to the Light Elves and a different structure. They are led by a Tsar.
The Light Elves are American because of the comparison between the Grey Havens in Tolkien and America in our own world. A far and distant land, the land of hope and glory, somewhere that for many is simply a dream.
You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.
Throwing the letters "WWII" around for your game you are bound to get some people thinking Germans=Nazis.
Personally I am happy to see a wargame where the Germans didn't go down that path, hell after Zombies and Robots it seems Nazis are the only guilt free antagonists people can think of.
So, in this kind tongue in cheek intent, does this mean that the Rat/Italian was an intentional reasoning. I am personally fine with it but wouldn't expect too many Italians to get it into it if their native army is the vermin race.
Canadians are Ents? Nice. Any hits for other fictional races considered, maybe a full Lizardmen faction? (counting till someone turns up...)
Theophony wrote: You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.
This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.
The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.
I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?
I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.
Theophony wrote: You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.
This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.
The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.
I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?
I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.
The thing is there was obvious thought to the armies. In his own account he says why the Germans are dwarves. So why are Italians rats?(which has a negative connotation to it), or why are the polish (I think that's the country) people troglodytes? I think it would have been better off if he had said I picked a country then threw a dart at a board which had the different races on it. Now if they said the Italians were rats because the Italians are world den own for cheese and catacombs (I think I'll patent that name for a game), then it might come off different, but now it just seems like a slap to the face of Italians (I'm only like 1/128th Italian, so I'm not personally offended).
It's fantasy, it's made up. It's not some kind of statement about nationality, it's a bit of fun.
For the nation that switched sides in both world wars it doesn't seem beyond the pale for that to get twisted into a fantasy race known to backstab - it's just a loose thing to hook a concept around. (They could have a totally different reasoning, which would likely be equally as innocuous)
I wonder if we'll get China as a faction, they always seem to get forgotten from ww2 for some reason
AlexHolker wrote: Personally, I would have picked fauns (i.e. ungor) - a race from Roman mythology living in Rome.
Or Wolves as Rome was founded by Remus and Romulus who were saved by a she-wolf. So you could have your werewolf army right there.
That would work - werewolves are more closely associated with Germany than Italy, but if you wanted to do something different from the usual "Operation Werwolf using actual Werewolves" then Rome's mythic origin is a good excuse to do that.
Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
I'm not offended.in the slightest, used to pay Flintloque where everyone was a fantasy race and I would be a dirty Scottish rat.
I'm not entirely comfortable with that sort of thing now that I'm more of aliberal hippy, but it has sort of piqued my curiosity after you explained why Dwarves were chosen to be the Germans. I would welcome your thoughts on why certain races were chosen to represent certain countries and nationalities. I ask only because the floodgates were sort of opened by yourself on that front.
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!
Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.
Theophony wrote: You want light hearted, but then you stereotype people by their ethnic backgrounds and compare them to monsters and don't get why some people have taken offense.
This isn't D&D, though. The "monster" classes used aren't portrayed as monstrous in my opinion. In fact, for me, part of the appeal of this game is seeing fantasy races normally portrayed as NPCs or "bad guys" getting a new treatment.
The "British" orcs don't seem like Tolkein's brutes, even if they bear a physical resemblance to other fictional manifestations of "orc" I don't think that means the game creators are making a statement about the British culturally or otherwise.
I don't recall Brushfire getting this kind of flack for their anthropomorphic game with factions loosely based on real countries/cultures. So why is Panzerfauste different? Is it the WWII analog weapons? Is WWII "too soon" for some people?
I mean, at the end of the day this is all fantasy, clearly. The game features humanoid animals going to war. Some even ride giant snails for crying out loud... why people are getting offended is lost on me.
The thing is there was obvious thought to the armies. In his own account he says why the Germans are dwarves. So why are Italians rats?(which has a negative connotation to it), or why are the polish (I think that's the country) people troglodytes? I think it would have been better off if he had said I picked a country then threw a dart at a board which had the different races on it. Now if they said the Italians were rats because the Italians are world den own for cheese and catacombs (I think I'll patent that name for a game), then it might come off different, but now it just seems like a slap to the face of Italians (I'm only like 1/128th Italian, so I'm not personally offended).
Yes, the Italian/rat thing.
What are Italians known for? When I think of Italy I think of a lot of things, one of them being their history of maritime trade and exploration/conquest. What creature piggy-backed on sailing ships criss-crossing the globe and essentially conquering the world? Rats.
Rats are hardy, resilient creatures that can adapt to varied environments. They are survivors. Sure, there are plenty of negative associations with rats, just like there are with the other "monster" races in Panzerfauste, but Panzerfauste doesn't seem to be playing up the negative stereotypes commonly associated with those races.
If the Italian rats are portrayed like GW's Skaven, living in clustered masses, spreading contagion, and being evil, then sure, I could understand people's feelings getting hurt. But I am not seeing that from Panzerfauste.
The Redwall series of books is beloved, and it used "vermin" for its characters. I don't think anyone was associating the English with disease spreading vermin when reading those books. Is Fievel from American Tail a slap to Jewish culture because he is a mouse? I personally don't think so.
Armand first noted his displeasure with the Italian's being rats and one of his reasons was this:
Armand wrote: Considering that rat is used as a synonym for betrayer, and that Italy left the Axis for the Allies, well...
Should we really concern ourselves with people sore over Italy leaving the Axis? The Axis powers. Mussolini. Fascism. If anything, being called a rat for leaving the Axis should be a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of.
Don't misconstrue what I am saying, I am not accusing Armand of being an Axis sympathizer, rather that if that is his concern, does it really merit much consideration? Does anyone really think of Italians as rats for leaving the Axis?
I think the outrage is overblown, especially when there are plenty of other forms of anthropomorphic characters who exhibit cultural traits of real groups that are loved and accepted.
But, these are just like my opinions, man. Take them or leave them.
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!
Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.
And why one person being excited out rules more people who are offended....oh wait he's a distributor....with money in hand. Besides I've never seen a distributor make a wrong call on a product and get caught with a product that winds up being a dud. But that is what miniature market is for, buying out those failed businesses and selling their stock cheap over the next 5 or more years.
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!
Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.
Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.
You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.
Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
Now that you mention it, sounds like a good idea!
Yes, please enlighten us. I'd love to hear why the people who've been offended are wrong. I'm sure the reasons will be super convincing. Personally, I'd like to know why you took the "dwarves are totally Germans, but totally not Nazis, guys!" route, in your World War II-inspired game.
Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.
You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.
Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?
I just think that it's a strange choice to make a clearly WWII-inspired game, to the point of saying "the Germans are dwarves, the Russians are dark elves, etc." and then saying "oh, yeah, in this explicitly WWII-inspired game, the German analogues aren't anything like Nazis." That'd be like making an American Civil War-inspired game and saying "Oh, yeah, in this explicitly ACW-inspired game, the Confederate analogues don't own slaves." To me, it just rings false.
Looking over the Dwarves I don't see a single swastika, or any other Nazi-related markings. I see German equipment analogs and that is it.
You'll likely think this is a cop-out, but unless the figures had swastikas carved into them, or SS iconography (the single lightning bolt on the belts of some of the dwarves doesn't count) then the claim that the Dwarves aren't Nazis rings true for me.
Unless you are making the claim that any character in any game that uses any sort of WWII German equipment can be labeled a Nazi. But that seems entirely unreasonable as an argument. Are you claiming that?
Of course there are actual WW2 German minis/models made without swastikas and other Nazi iconography. If you want to sell them in Germany including even historically correct markings will get your product banned. Smart producers don't put themselves into that position.
To claim a side is 'Dwarves as WW2 Germans' would tend to have a VERY strong implication they could be considered Nazi dwarves, as we all know, the Germans forces in WW2 were Nazis or at least fighting for the Nazi cause (when not actual party members). Kind of hard to divorce the two from each other.
Guildsman wrote: I just think that it's a strange choice to make a clearly WWII-inspired game, to the point of saying "the Germans are dwarves, the Russians are dark elves, etc." and then saying "oh, yeah, in this explicitly WWII-inspired game, the German analogues aren't anything like Nazis." That'd be like making an American Civil War-inspired game and saying "Oh, yeah, in this explicitly ACW-inspired game, the Confederate analogues don't own slaves." To me, it just rings false.
I understand where you are coming from, but without knowing the background of Panzerfauste, I am not ready to label the German Dwarves Nazis. I'd want to know more about the fictional society they are representing before making that connection.
Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?
Of course there are actual WW2 German minis/models made without swastikas and other Nazi iconography. If you want to sell them in Germany including even historically correct markings will get your product banned. Smart producers don't put themselves into that position.
To claim a side is 'Dwarves as WW2 Germans' would tend to have a VERY strong implication they could be considered Nazi dwarves, as we all know, the Germans forces in WW2 were Nazis or at least fighting for the Nazi cause (when not actual party members). Kind of hard to divorce the two from each other.
Same as above, I understand the implication, but WWII German elements are well established features for a lot of miniature ranges and factions across multiple games. If the Panzerfauste Dwarves don't hold to Nazi ideologies and don't exhibit Nazi iconography are they Nazis? Or are they just Dwarves with machinenpistoles?
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?
Ooh! I actually know this too! In the Dystopian Wars/Legions background, the U.S. abolishes slavery in the 1820s, huge deposits of unobtainium (I forget the actual name) are discovered, and the Civil War is fought over mineral rights. And yes, that also made me uncomfortable.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Did Dystopian Legions get the same flack for having not-Confederate forces representing America? I don't recall any backlash when that game was released, and those miniatures bear a very strong resemblance to southern forces. Are all Federated States armies dirty slave owners?
Ooh! I actually know this too! In the Dystopian Wars/Legions background, the U.S. abolishes slavery in the 1820s, huge deposits of unobtainium (I forget the actual name) are discovered, and the Civil War is fought over mineral rights. And yes, that also made me uncomfortable.
Awesome, I wasn't familiar with Dystopian Legions' background. Thanks for the info.
That is kinda what I am hoping goes down for Panzerfauste in terms of the Dwarves fluff. As long as they aren't eradicating another race within the game and espousing Nazi-ideologies then I can deal with them.
I should also point out that if folks are offended, that is perfectly fine. It's not my job, nor do I think its my job to say you are WRONG. I would just like to offer arguments as to why the decision has been made.
However, none of our actions have been made with offensive intent in mind. We'd rather no one was offended (or maybe everyone!), but that's not going to be possible.
Here's what Steve had to say about it; my advice, take it or leave it.
It has been great to see the interest generated in the posts about Hysterical's Panzerfäuste project on a variety of internet platforms. However, I am concerned by a minority of comments which are somewhat erroneous and need correcting.
First off it is worth noting that Panzerfäuste is not a new game. It first saw the light of day at the end of the nineties as a small press production with a small range of supporting white metal miniatures. This is important to note as in the near two decades the original game has been in production NO ONE has ever expressed offence or concern at the game or its background (and the game has been bought by serving soldiers and veterans).
Secondly it is not a WW2 game with fantasy races. The background to the game draws on more than just WW2 for its inspiration and if you check out the miniatures released by Wessex Games, you will see that there are WW1 inspired Sturmtruppen sitting alongside WW2 inspired Commandos. This is important to note when an uninformed minority start tossing around words like “Nazi” There are no Nazis in Panzerfäuste and never will be. The Dwarves in Panzerfäuste are Imperial not National Socialist and they are led by a Kaiser not a Führer.
One individual has made a point that it is offensive that the "British" are portrayed as “Evil” Orcs and the “Good” Dwarves are "Nazi Germans". Now I am going to assume that this individual has not bought the original game and is making a whole raft of presuppositions about the background that are totally incorrect.
I'm not quite sure why the person in question has decided that Orcs are automatically Evil. Yes in the old days of D&D and first edition Warhammer, Orcs were “alignment Evil”. However this view has changed over the decades and I prefer the more revisionist approach to Orcs based on books like Mary Gentle's excellent Grunts and Stan Nicholls Orcs series. Both authors treat their Orcs as poor bloody infantry doing what they are told by the man in charge. They are not inherently evil, just employed by someone who is.
So why are our Orcs "British"? Well it is easier to answer why our Dwarves are "German". Dwarves come from Nordic and Germanic myth and one of the great pieces of Germanic myth is the Nibelungenlied, which features an Evil Dwarf called Alberich (not all Dwarves are “Good”). Couple this with beards and fancy moustaches, a love of mountains and a propensity to hold a grudge over lost lands, well to me that sounds more German than British.
So with "German" Dwarves decided upon (led in Panzerfäuste by the nasty Kaiser Alberich), who were the "British" going to be?
Having previously worked on Flintloque for three years, where, inspired by Wellington's quote that his infantry were “the scum of the earth”, the Orcs were “British” it never really occurred to me to have them as anything else. As a traditional enemy of the Dwarves, it made sense and this view was probably subconsciously reinforced by GW’s ‘Ere We Go! “football hooligan” orcs, models like the 40k's Ork Kommandos and Mary Gentle’s excellent book that smashes fantasy stereotypes.
Like the vast majority, I (along with the rest of the Hysterical Games team) also “personally detest fascism”. As anyone who knows me will attest I have marched against fascists and I have a zero tolerance policy to people who share memes from extreme right wing organizations on social media. I also have family members who died in defence of this country. I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.
Once again I would like to thank the whole internet community for their support as well as all the positive vibes and messages from the gaming community about the rebirth of Panzerfäuste.
Steve Blease
rob_alderman wrote: I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.
That section from Steve Blease seems... a bit needlessly combative (probably better to ignore it if he thinks someone was trolling him, right?).
The representations do seem a little odd and a bit of a "stretch" at times, so that's not an isolated opinion (although it looks like it was probably stated in a way to wind him up). But the dwarves as germans is actually one of the cooler / better fits, imo!
I should also point out that if folks are offended, that is perfectly fine. It's not my job, nor do I think its my job to say you are WRONG. I would just like to offer arguments as to why the decision has been made.
However, none of our actions have been made with offensive intent in mind. We'd rather no one was offended (or maybe everyone!), but that's not going to be possible.
Here's what Steve had to say about it; my advice, take it or leave it.
It has been great to see the interest generated in the posts about Hysterical's Panzerfäuste project on a variety of internet platforms. However, I am concerned by a minority of comments which are somewhat erroneous and need correcting.
First off it is worth noting that Panzerfäuste is not a new game. It first saw the light of day at the end of the nineties as a small press production with a small range of supporting white metal miniatures. This is important to note as in the near two decades the original game has been in production NO ONE has ever expressed offence or concern at the game or its background (and the game has been bought by serving soldiers and veterans).
Secondly it is not a WW2 game with fantasy races. The background to the game draws on more than just WW2 for its inspiration and if you check out the miniatures released by Wessex Games, you will see that there are WW1 inspired Sturmtruppen sitting alongside WW2 inspired Commandos. This is important to note when an uninformed minority start tossing around words like “Nazi” There are no Nazis in Panzerfäuste and never will be. The Dwarves in Panzerfäuste are Imperial not National Socialist and they are led by a Kaiser not a Führer.
One individual has made a point that it is offensive that the "British" are portrayed as “Evil” Orcs and the “Good” Dwarves are "Nazi Germans". Now I am going to assume that this individual has not bought the original game and is making a whole raft of presuppositions about the background that are totally incorrect.
I'm not quite sure why the person in question has decided that Orcs are automatically Evil. Yes in the old days of D&D and first edition Warhammer, Orcs were “alignment Evil”. However this view has changed over the decades and I prefer the more revisionist approach to Orcs based on books like Mary Gentle's excellent Grunts and Stan Nicholls Orcs series. Both authors treat their Orcs as poor bloody infantry doing what they are told by the man in charge. They are not inherently evil, just employed by someone who is.
So why are our Orcs "British"? Well it is easier to answer why our Dwarves are "German". Dwarves come from Nordic and Germanic myth and one of the great pieces of Germanic myth is the Nibelungenlied, which features an Evil Dwarf called Alberich (not all Dwarves are “Good”). Couple this with beards and fancy moustaches, a love of mountains and a propensity to hold a grudge over lost lands, well to me that sounds more German than British.
So with "German" Dwarves decided upon (led in Panzerfäuste by the nasty Kaiser Alberich), who were the "British" going to be?
Having previously worked on Flintloque for three years, where, inspired by Wellington's quote that his infantry were “the scum of the earth”, the Orcs were “British” it never really occurred to me to have them as anything else. As a traditional enemy of the Dwarves, it made sense and this view was probably subconsciously reinforced by GW’s ‘Ere We Go! “football hooligan” orcs, models like the 40k's Ork Kommandos and Mary Gentle’s excellent book that smashes fantasy stereotypes.
Like the vast majority, I (along with the rest of the Hysterical Games team) also “personally detest fascism”. As anyone who knows me will attest I have marched against fascists and I have a zero tolerance policy to people who share memes from extreme right wing organizations on social media. I also have family members who died in defence of this country. I could not stand by though and allow someone to engage in borderline libel by saying they are “less than impressed by anyone who thinks nazis are the good guys, as in this game.”
I DO NOT think Nazi’s were good, this game does not portray Nazis as good (or Orcs as evil) and I will not have my character defamed in posts by an anonymous individual. I would caution them doing so again especially when they know nothing about the game or its background, and are making a whole bunch of erroneous suppositions from a place of complete ignorance.
Once again I would like to thank the whole internet community for their support as well as all the positive vibes and messages from the gaming community about the rebirth of Panzerfäuste.
Steve Blease
No one's accusing anyone of condoning fascism, jeez. But there are elements of this game so far that are going to make some people uncomfortable, myself included. Obviously, I'm not the target audience for this game.
Also, you can claim any and every influence you like, but if your dwarves are stomping around with stahlhelms and sturmgewehrs, many/most people are going to immediately think "Nazi dwarves."
Are you guys seriously offended that there's WWII styled Germans in this game? Some of you are really giving off that vibe. Where were you when Tannhauzer had WWII looking Germans (who weren't Nazis btw) or when Dust made Weird War Germans? Where were the people claiming offense when Zombiesmith made an army of German pigmen? Seriously guys, what the hell are you getting so bent out of shape about? It's a fething game. You act like the designers punched you in the face and insulted your mom or something
I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.
Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.
BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.
I like german ww2 tanks.... I like their weaponry and uniforms.... does that make me a nazi sympathiser? No of course not!
Germany + Dwarfs makes sense....
Tbh I would of prefered the orks to of been french (old outdate equipment etc) but then again gnomes fit them better!
Ratmen would always be an issue seeing their reputation!
I think Japan would be incredibly troublesome, more so than choosing the germans, maybe lizardmen? Avian creature and Reptiles are often honour based in fantasy settings after all?
CptJake wrote: I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.
Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.
BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.
Thank you! Someone understands. "And these are the German analogues. What?! Nazis?! How dare you conflate the explicitly German faction of our WW2-based game with Nazis!!!"
I find it amusing that all the games that this is being compare to are ones I never bothered to look at unless it was on clearance at miniaturemarket. Seriously the games being compared to are small time ones that couldn't get enough support and are on their second or third attempts, or they DO have a nazi faction in them which brings the historians into the game to fight alternate battles.
For the umpteenth time, it's not that they're Nazis. It's that in a fantasy WWII game, based heavily on historical events, the dwarves have the aesthetic without the historical connotations. You don't get to cherry pick the clearly recognizable outfits of Nazis and then turn around and say, "oh, these guys don't do that bad stuff. How could you say that?" The DUST characters are explicitly Nazis, and are treated as the bad guys. Like they should be.
The ratmen I don't think should really be an issue. They're not GW style plague-ridden, malformed monstrosities. The Panzerfauste Italians actually look fairly normal.
For your viewing pleasure, this is what the original ones looked like.
They're just anthropomorphic rats in fatigues. Nothing to get so bent out of shape over.
So, Guildsman, your issue is that they look like Nazis, but they aren't? So, you should have that same problem with Tannhauser, Dust, and the Steel Legion then.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear that in Dust's fulff, Hitler and the overall Nazi regime had actually been overthrown. That's why there's not SS units in the game.
Guildsman wrote: For the umpteenth time, it's not that they're Nazis. It's that in a fantasy WWII game, based heavily on historical events, the dwarves have the aesthetic without the historical connotations. You don't get to cherry pick the clearly recognizable outfits of Nazis and then turn around and say, "oh, these guys don't do that bad stuff. How could you say that?" The DUST characters are explicitly Nazis, and are treated as the bad guys. Like they should be.
Then don't back it if you have moral qualms about it.
Also, you can claim any and every influence you like, but if your dwarves are stomping around with stahlhelms and sturmgewehrs, many/most people are going to immediately think "Nazi dwarves."
I thought 'German Dwarves' which seems to have been the majority reaction. I never even considered any possible link with nazism before this thread.
If you don't like it then don't back it; there is very little difference between this and the various 'Weird War 2' games out there and considering that this is a fantasy game with Dwarves led by a Kaiser Imperial Germany would be a better comparison. Some troops that look far more like WWI Sturmtruppen than WW2 Schutzen, not to mention the cavalry riding pigs...
If you feel uncomfortable wargaming Nazis then fine, don't. Given that Germany is the most popular WW2 wargaming army there is little evidence that this decision will have been an economically bad one. There is also the very real point that individual WW2 era Germans were in the balance of probability not actually Nazis.
rob_alderman wrote: @Zond: I am sure I could quiz Steve for you and try to get back to you?
I'm the same, designer notes fill me with joy.
Yeah it would be interesting to know more about the thought processes behind the racial design choices and how than influenced the gaming world or vice versa. I'm currently not a backer as I'm a bit uncomfortable with some concepts, so it's cheeky for me to ask, but as you say designer notes fill everyone with joy. ☺
I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.
I don't mind the dwarves at all - what got me was the creator's reaction (quoted above). Maybe some people were being rude elsewhere, but this is an international forum and people were polite with their criticism. When an Italian poster says he's offended how his country is represented, it's at least worth listening to that poster. Acting as if there is nothing at all that toes the line in the game would be ignoring posts like that, and that's what bothered me.
Having an intelligent discussion about it is worthwhile and certainly nothing wrong with it on either side! Like I said, the dwarves look like one of the best fits and don't bother me at all. The original one that gave me pause was actually troglodytes as polish, before the rats were shown. I think I would describe some of it as just clumsily done... the reasoning behind the representations seems a bit tenuous, so it's hard for me to get immersed in it. Again, this is unlike the dwarves, which for me make perfect sense.
If they were going for something that would push the limits a bit, they succeeded
The "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument is the last refuge of modern self-identified "consumers", people for whom buying things and not buying things are literally the only way they can influence the world. They abhor anything they consider as making a political statement, without for a moment realizing that that too is a political statement. Wilful blindness is abysmal and distasteful to behold.
Theophony wrote: I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.
Sure, to an extent, but the "feedback" that you and others have given wasn't particularly helpful. You in particular have continued to call the German Dwarves Nazis even when other posters have pointed out that they are in fact not Nazis. Your "side" of the argument doesn't seem intent to try and change the game for the better, rather than just sharing how uncomfortable you all are with some of the concepts.
I personally gave a suggestion for why the Italians are rat men and you ignored it. So pardon me if I don't take your claims of offering constructive criticism seriously since you don't want to even have a conversation about why rat men were chosen for Italy.
And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments. Instead that side is focusing on the "rats = diseased vermin" trope without looking at other interpretations of rats for possible reasoning as to why they were chosen for Italy.
All I am seeing from the critics of this game are their existing biases towards history, towards "monster" races from other games and they are letting those biases inform their decisions about Panzerfauste without even allowing alternatives to be considered.
Which leads to the chorus of "if you don't like it don't buy it!"
You guys aren't offering anything up to change. You are simply stating that things make you uncomfortable about the game while ignoring or discounting counter-arguments made to mitigate your discomfort. Fine. Don't buy in then. What else can be said to appease your discomfort?
But if you are serious about having a conversation let's reset then. I get you are uncomfortable by the rat men. But if the rat men aren't portrayed like Skaven. If they don't behave like a nest of plague filled vermin, but are simply rat people much like the Red Wall creatures were rat and mice people, what is the problem?
Are rats,in your opinion, so monstrous that they cannot be explored as a sympathetic race in a fantasy setting?
And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments.
Now, I wasn't planning to reply again to this topic, as I have already said my piece, and lost any interest in the project; but since you keep implying things about me without knowing them, let me make something clear:
no, I'm absolutely not a supporter of the Axis ideology. In fact, some of my parents' relatives (civilians) were killed by "rogue" German soldiers that were escaping the country, just because they were part of the (in their opinion) "traitor people".
Not that I care what you think, mind you, it's just to show the others reading my side of the story.
CptJake wrote: I could care less about Nazi dwarves. I play WW2 games and field both Germans and US troops. On the other hand, I have no illusions that the Germans in WW2 were Nazis.
Someone has to play the bad guys, and I don't think doing so entails adopting their real life ideologies as your own.
BUT: Making a fantasy WW2 game, and assigning one race as 'Germans', you would have to be silly to think folks won't equate that race as the Nazis. To be offended when they do amazes me.
I actually totally agree with you! You've made a good point.
Sorry, Steve's update is taken out of context. Someone did call us Nazi sympathisers, just because the Orcs (traditionally evil) were British and Dwarves (traditionally good) were 'Nazis'.
And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments.
Now, I wasn't planning to reply again to this topic, as I have already said my piece, and lost any interest in the project; but since you keep implying things about me without knowing them, let me make something clear:
no, I'm absolutely not a supporter of the Axis ideology. In fact, some of my parents' relatives (civilians) were killed by "rogue" German soldiers that were escaping the country, just because they were part of the (in their opinion) "traitor people".
Not that I care what you think, mind you, it's just to show the others reading my side of the story.
Sorry for the OT, stopping replying now.
I have gone out of my way to state that I don't think you are an Axis sympathizer, but that the criticism you leveled at the rat figures would only be made by Axis sympathizers. So do you have any other reason to not like rats as Italians? Because you brought up the connotation of rats being a metaphor for Axis traitors which is something most people wouldn't think of.
That said I'll almost surely unable to resist going in for something, as I'm a sucker for orcs in uniforms. Before I though I am curious, does anyone have any scale shots of how the orcs / not-goblins will look next to the standard GW variety? Scale and such of bodies, weapons, height, ect?
Theophony wrote: I love how every thread evolves into "If you don't like it don't back it", Seriously guys this is a news and rumors thread where we discuss things. People keep jumping to the conclusion that others don't know that already. Possible customers were approached with an idea of XYZ, now is when customers are suppossed to say well I'd like it better IF XYZ was XZY or XYA. It's customer feedback, while I realize the creator has already proceeded with his creation and there are enough backers moving forwards with this, there is always time to put our input in and for him to say that they will look into it or make the changes or they don't care and are proceeding anyways. Telling people who are giving feedback that they should just not back in hope they shut up and walk away does a disservice to the whole community as it stifles the possibility of getting more people involved in the game. If there is one person in our community that have an aversion to any part of the game then there is a percentage of the greater target audience that also will have similar feelings. That undercurrent can make or break a game, especially one from an unknown company, so it would behoove them to listen to the concerns. Lastly for anyone who shouts down or tries to quiet a minority you should be careful that you don't make the standard to tight otherwise one time you may just wind up becoming the minority in another discussion in the future. Kind of Ironic that we are talking about Germans (I actually was only having problems with the ratman) and this turns up again.
Sure, to an extent, but the "feedback" that you and others have given wasn't particularly helpful. You in particular have continued to call the German Dwarves Nazis even when other posters have pointed out that they are in fact not Nazis. Your "side" of the argument doesn't seem intent to try and change the game for the better, rather than just sharing how uncomfortable you all are with some of the concepts.
I personally gave a suggestion for why the Italians are rat men and you ignored it. So pardon me if I don't take your claims of offering constructive criticism seriously since you don't want to even have a conversation about why rat men were chosen for Italy.
And again, look at the arguments of the Italian poster regarding the rat men. They are questionable at best in terms of generating sympathy for his argument. And he hasn't followed up on his posts from pages back, and no one else on the "anti-Italian rat men" side has really championed those arguments. Instead that side is focusing on the "rats = diseased vermin" trope without looking at other interpretations of rats for possible reasoning as to why they were chosen for Italy.
All I am seeing from the critics of this game are their existing biases towards history, towards "monster" races from other games and they are letting those biases inform their decisions about Panzerfauste without even allowing alternatives to be considered.
Which leads to the chorus of "if you don't like it don't buy it!"
You guys aren't offering anything up to change. You are simply stating that things make you uncomfortable about the game while ignoring or discounting counter-arguments made to mitigate your discomfort. Fine. Don't buy in then. What else can be said to appease your discomfort?
But if you are serious about having a conversation let's reset then. I get you are uncomfortable by the rat men. But if the rat men aren't portrayed like Skaven. If they don't behave like a nest of plague filled vermin, but are simply rat people much like the Red Wall creatures were rat and mice people, what is the problem?
Are rats,in your opinion, so monstrous that they cannot be explored as a sympathetic race in a fantasy setting?
I think you need to go back and filter the thread for my replies as the two times I mentioned Nazis were
1. I called them Nazi pig riders (okay, German troops during the nazi reign, which these models are clearly based off of), my fault there for not clarifying enough.
2. When I was discussing other game systems I mentioned that those games had nazi factions.
They are making a game with very WWII stylized art and concept, but the. Are picking and choosing when they want us to take things as literally and when to take them lighthearted. They came up with a reason for dwarves that was decent, but the reason for rats was "black shirts/black rats" as if there wasn't a hundred other points of Italian history to pick from. Other options have been suggested and you have tried to shoe horn in an alternate idea for the rats (which if that had been their response I would have been good with it). The problem I see is they took a bad time in history and chose a very distinct point that is tender to a country's ego and they accentuated it while at the same time took a bad part of German history and are trying to gloss over it. Italy has soooooooo much history to it that could have been used instead, but their choice has obviously struck a few chords.
As far as offering up anything for change I suggested werewolves, and others have suggested satyrs for Italians, both drawing on Italian history and legends, and those were ignored. To me rats or ratmen are not "monsters" I only have experience with ratmen from skaven, everything else like redwall is just anthropomorphic cartoons or stories. Are there legends (hansel and gretel type tales with ratmen? Besides the rat king from the nutcracker) where there are ratmen? Otherwise we have monsters for every country except Italy. So it's Mickey Mouse versus dwarves (not the Snow White type either), troglodytes, Ents, Elves and Dark Elves. The elves thing in itself seems like a political statement as well as you have the "good" light elves (Americans) and the "evil" dark elves (Soviets), was there such a lack of monster choices that we had to go to that trope again.
The main reason I see them not changing the rats is because that's what they were in first edition. I posted pics of the old Italian ratmen earlier. They're not a particularly negative portrayal. They just wound up looking a bit more like furries. I agree with you that wolves (or birdmen) would've worked better due to the presence of those animals in traditional Roman and Italian iconography. However, the fluff's bern established for about 20 years that Italians are rat men. I agree that the reasoning probably amounted to "hey, wouldn't this be cool?" But why change it now after being established for so long?
They are making a game with very WWII stylized art and concept,
Full stop. Styled after, not actually WWII. That is important and I think a detail that gets glossed over by some people offended by this game. This isn't WWII directly. The factions may take cues from the cultures and armies that participated in WWII but that doesn't mean they are EXACTLY the same as their real-world counterparts.
Theophony wrote: but the. Are picking and choosing when they want us to take things as literally and when to take them lighthearted. They came up with a reason for dwarves that was decent, but the reason for rats was "black shirts/black rats" as if there wasn't a hundred other points of Italian history to pick from.
I am sure more thought went into the Italian rats than the comedic comment made by rob.
Here is his quote directly.
rob_alderman wrote: Do I need to post the big update explaining why everything is what it is and shouldn't be taken as offensive?
I should point out that we have an Italian distributor desperate for this product to come to market and he is MOST excited about Italy being represented by ratmen...
Come on, Black Shirts - Black Rats... Easy!
Surely you don't think that is ALL the thought that went into the Italian faction.
Should some actual follow up have been provided by rob about reasoning behind the use of rats as Italians? Most certainly, but I can't take that comment of his seriously as the real and only reason that Italians became rats in Panzerfauste.
Theophony wrote: Other options have been suggested and you have tried to shoe horn in an alternate idea for the rats (which if that had been their response I would have been good with it). The problem I see is they took a bad time in history and chose a very distinct point that is tender to a country's ego and they accentuated it while at the same time took a bad part of German history and are trying to gloss over it. Italy has soooooooo much history to it that could have been used instead, but their choice has obviously struck a few chords.
I bolded the part I agree with you on. I do think egos are being bruised, but I think that is willful on the part of the offended. My honest opinion of a lot of the outrage over this game is that people are looking for things to pick apart. Maybe its the Prodos connection? Maybe it was a boring week and people have nothing else to focus on, but the issues people have with Panzerfauste, that they don't seem to have with other games doing similar things as Panzerfauste, makes it hard for me to come up with any other conclusion than people want to be butt-hurt about this game setting.
Why isn't 40k a problem for introducing real-world cultural elements or cliches to their armies? Or the other games that have been mentioned (which you discounted because they were small press or had limited market presence) which do many of the things Panzerfauste wants to do without the criticism Panzerfauste is receiving.
Theophony wrote: As far as offering up anything for change I suggested werewolves, and others have suggested satyrs for Italians, both drawing on Italian history and legends, and those were ignored.
Likely because the factions are in place from the 90's version of the game, and are already being developed into models. It would be hard to completely change a faction's make up at this stage of the development process. What I find interesting is the relative lack of interest by certain people to give any nuance to the setting or factions. Certainly there is a lot to mine in the game (and the game creators certainly could do a better job of sharing some of that information) but some people seem to be taking a very literal and very limited view of the game based off of their own preconceived notions of fantasy races.
Theophony wrote: To me rats or ratmen are not "monsters" I only have experience with ratmen from skaven, everything else like redwall is just anthropomorphic cartoons or stories. Are there legends (hansel and gretel type tales with ratmen? Besides the rat king from the nutcracker) where there are ratmen? Otherwise we have monsters for every country except Italy. So it's Mickey Mouse versus dwarves (not the Snow White type either), troglodytes, Ents, Elves and Dark Elves. The elves thing in itself seems like a political statement as well as you have the "good" light elves (Americans) and the "evil" dark elves (Soviets), was there such a lack of monster choices that we had to go to that trope again.
All assumptions on your part. Not every race revealed is a monstrous race (elves, gnomes). And the Light/Dark elf metaphor can easily represent the two super powers during the cold war. Again, the game isn't exactly WWII, so anacronistic elements like cold-war era themes can be present without it causing a problem. I can see why they went in that direction for USA/Russia. Two highly advanced civilizations that have two diametrically opposed ideologies. Seems like a good fit to me.
Ok, I want to preface this by stating that by and in large, I dislike it when people say "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" as a method to shut down discussion. It is pretty much always a dodge.
That said, this might be one of the few cases where it actually is properly applied. Group A says "This offends me". Group B says " I don't think it is offensive." Group A replies "It is offensive because of X, Y and Z." Group B replies "It should not be offensive because of A, B and C." This repeats.
The question then is, so what?
If Group A is correct, so what? Should the features be changed? Hard to say without knowing how important they are to the project, and how the rest of the market will react. Projects are pretty much guaranteed to offend someone, somewhere, and making them less offensive can turn off other people who like things more "real" or "edgy" or whatever.
If Group B is correct, so what? Should Group A change their feels? Can they? I am all for people being more dignified and stoic, but offense is sometimes the proper response, and stating that offense has been taken is good social information. Then again, stating that offense is considered inappropriate, thin skinned or whatever, is also good social information. In either case, it seems unlikely that Group A will change either their opinion or their spending decision based on arguments from Group B, and the game producer has the same information problem in reacting to Group B as he does from reacting to Group A.
So maybe the thing to do really is to just say "I do/don't like this project for the following reasons, and will/won't be backing/purchasing" and then being quiet about it. There is no point arguing as though your offense gives you special status, or as though someone's offense is inappropriate and can be removed by virtue of considered argument. Some debates just are not worth having.
Now, if we were talking about trigger discipline on the model, or holding a bow and arrow properly, that would be a different story!
It's also impotant to realise it's a re-issue of an exiting game and while some tinkering with it for modern gaming styles is understandable wholesale changes of some of the factions is never going to go down well
imagine GW decides to re-release Mordheim after a bit of (functional) rules tinkering... Happy Happy, Joy Joy,
but no, the humans no longer fit as the empire got blown up, so GW have decided to replace them with kangaroos, not so much happiness, old customers (ok probably not so many for Panzerfaust) and the old game designers (really important for Panzerfaust, not so much for Mordheim as they don't own the IP) get grumpy and don't want to be involved
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: but no, the humans no longer fit as the empire got blown up, so GW have decided to replace them with kangaroos, not so much happiness, old customers (ok probably not so many for Panzerfaust) and the old game designers (really important for Panzerfaust, not so much for Mordheim as they don't own the IP) get grumpy and don't want to be involved
So it's because the game designers are partial to the original representations, right? Because there wasn't much of a following of this game previously, and there's certainly not the fluff / background for the various races that Mordheim (basically part of WHFB) had.
if you've put the time and effort into something to keep it (sort of) alive for a decade (there have been occasional sporadic mini releases as his funds have allowed) rather than dumping it when it didn't take off big time you clearly like and value what you've created
Wehrkind wrote: Ok, I want to preface this by stating that by and in large, I dislike it when people say "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" as a method to shut down discussion. It is pretty much always a dodge.
That said, this might be one of the few cases where it actually is properly applied. Group A says "This offends me". Group B says " I don't think it is offensive." Group A replies "It is offensive because of X, Y and Z." Group B replies "It should not be offensive because of A, B and C." This repeats.
The question then is, so what?
If Group A is correct, so what? Should the features be changed? Hard to say without knowing how important they are to the project, and how the rest of the market will react. Projects are pretty much guaranteed to offend someone, somewhere, and making them less offensive can turn off other people who like things more "real" or "edgy" or whatever.
If Group B is correct, so what? Should Group A change their feels? Can they? I am all for people being more dignified and stoic, but offense is sometimes the proper response, and stating that offense has been taken is good social information. Then again, stating that offense is considered inappropriate, thin skinned or whatever, is also good social information. In either case, it seems unlikely that Group A will change either their opinion or their spending decision based on arguments from Group B, and the game producer has the same information problem in reacting to Group B as he does from reacting to Group A.
So maybe the thing to do really is to just say "I do/don't like this project for the following reasons, and will/won't be backing/purchasing" and then being quiet about it. There is no point arguing as though your offense gives you special status, or as though someone's offense is inappropriate and can be removed by virtue of considered argument. Some debates just are not worth having.
Now, if we were talking about trigger discipline on the model, or holding a bow and arrow properly, that would be a different story!
I was at the forget this game phase already from the comments so I'll take my opinions elsewhere. Ask said before I really wanted to like this game.
Interesting designs. I'm hoping for a similar vicious quality from the full Dark Elf Russian and Light Elf American factions.
I'm hoping for designer notes still. I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.
Those models look really good! There are a ton of molds to make for each faction, though - the number of variant models / poses unlocked is really high!
Zond wrote: I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.
The Dwarves, Trogs and Gnomes have had a design analysis article on the KS page. I'm sure that the other factions will as well.
Zond wrote: I'm not offended by any of the models however if the Dwarves get an explanation as to why they are modelled on German forces I kind of want the same two or three sentence treatment for all the factions.
The Dwarves, Trogs and Gnomes have had a design analysis article on the KS page. I'm sure that the other factions will as well.
I've read them. Not exactly what I'm looking for, more along the small paragraph explaining why each race is representative of particular WW1/WW2 mashed forces like the Dwarf example. Maybe more on the world and background as I'm assuming it has been updated.
These are neat models, and I like the Fantasy-meets-WWII mashup. I was a bit leery of the Dwarves at first, but I'm satisfied that they're just imperialists in Hugo Boss uniforms and also definitely the antagonists (another plus; I've always liked evil dwarves even though they seem to be relatively uncommon, even though if you really think about it, the stereotypical Dwarven grumpy superiority and isolationism could easily fester into arrogance and xenophobia and that could be an interesting avenue to explore in a "bad guy" dwarf faction).
I'm a bit leery over the Polish being Troglodytes since it makes me think of all those terrible (and patently untrue) unflattering legends the Nazis spread about the Polish Army that a lot of people still believe today, but I can look past it.
Also hell friggin' yeah, Gnomes!
Cool to see that this got funded, might check it out when it's available at retail.
Ehhh you know what this needs to really hit the WW2 vibe. Armour and Aircraft for me fantasy WW2 needs fantasy vehicles the troops are great but until the Dwarfen panzers start rolling I won't be fully sold!
Llamahead wrote: Ehhh you know what this needs to really hit the WW2 vibe. Armour and Aircraft for me fantasy WW2 needs fantasy vehicles the troops are great but until the Dwarfen panzers start rolling I won't be fully sold!
For those who don't know: the term is an insult (who'd have thought?) but mostly used in the phrase 'overcoming your inner Schweinehund' - to finally do something (usually necessary or reasonable) despite your own laziness or displeasure (you know... cleaning the house, doing sports, tax declaration, using mounts as a dwarf ...)
Yeah, I know the German is wrong. I have very basic German language skills, was convinced it was right, checked it and realised I had got it wrong when it was too late!
Will be edited in the printed rulebook of course.
And yes, that was the intention. It's quite commonly known that 'Schweinhund' is a common expression of distaste to someone - a lot of British War Comics, films, etc, use that phrase quite frequently!
We now have Patrick Keith, of Bombshell Miniatures in support. He's kindly agreed to sculpt two figures for us, the first of which is Bogglez-Wurf, the Orc!
All pledgers of Sergeant or above get this guy for free!
We've also said that if we get 200 Backers, all backers of Captain or above will get a free hero of their choice.
Oh and we redesigned our templates, which will probably be cut by Mr Steve 'Pezzapoo' Perry, of Chilling Wargamers fame!
Can we just say, that you are the most humbling bunch of folk that we have ever had the pleasure of doing business with? Genuinely, the most heartfelt of thank you's go out to you all and we know that we say it a lot, but this time we pretty much got reduced to tears with gratitude and just had to say it again.
One of our backers (who wishes to remain anonymous, due to 'The Wife's Wrath') has, incredibly kindly, offered to help fund the creation of the Orc War Wyrm. This magnificent beast is available NOW as an add on, and thanks to this gentleman's help, will be a part of our very first wave of shipments.
"Lieutenant Eûn-hil slapped Bȅv-urlii on the flank as he walked around her. Here was a mount an Orc could be proud of he mused as he checked the feedbox was secured to the superstructure. “Soon gurl” he grunted as he checked the steering chains.
Pausing before he mounted his beast, he looked across the burning wheat fields and mushroom farms of Dûn-Nomin to where the advancing Dwarf army was. He clambered up the glacis plate and into the body. “Stupid bloody turret” he grumbled as he squeezed his bulk into the confined hull, “I’d like to stuff the boffin who designed it in here!” Cocking the machine gun, he kicked his driver on the shoulder, the order to advance the war-wyrm. Now to give the stunties some of their own medicine…"
So without further ado, I would like to announce the ORC "MATILDA I" WAR-WYRM!
Work in progress render. Scale of Beast, Hull and Turret will be increased by roughly 20%
Okay, so there is some work to do to the model, it will be scaled up a bit, so the Orc has less of a job squeezing into the turret and the commander will be wearing a Beret.
Will's Concept Art
This kit will come with an optional chest on the back full of gribbly offcuts of meat, a second head with a closed mouth, an optional Beast Commander (which can be replaced with a closed hatch).
x1 LARGE Resin miniature! No base supplied, as it will not be required!
We are offering this as an add on for the very special price of £22, please keep in mind that the RRP of this particular figure will be £30 due to it's bulk and size, but as a message of gratitude, we though this is the right price.
Obviously, the kind gent that helped fund it will receive a full Squadron of 3 Beasties...
Hot on the heels of the Orcish War-Wyrm, we are very happy to announce that it's opponent, the Dwarf Panzerbär will be available to buy as an add-on as well, thanks to 'The Anarchy of Anton!' Blog, check it out here!
"Leutnant Evhȃnz took a last swig of schnapps from his hip flask before turning his back on the burning Gnome mushroom farm and walking back to his unit. The meat wagons had at last caught up with his Panzerkriegtiere troop and the bears were busily devouring the fresh meat. The panzertruppen were busy reloading ammunition and checking the armour to see if any repairs needed immediate action. Evhȃnz second in command walked over to him, “Vell Anton, ze war is almost over, ja?” “So it seems mein freund, ve vill be back in Khâllazdûrin for Hogswatchnacht!” A sudden shout stopped the conversation short. A funker was running towards them. “Orcs! Herr Leutnant! Orcs are coming!” “Verdammt!” exclaimed Evhȃnz. “Mount up now!” The Dwarves sprang into action clambering into the armoured hulls. Guns were loaded, hatches sealed, the meat wagons withdrawn. Leutnant Evhȃnz keyed his radio “Panzer-Bären vorwärts!”
...and here he is, available now as an add-on for £22! Keep in mind, the RRP will be £30 and the concept art is very much in progress! It's likely that he will come with 1 bare head and also 1 helmeted head. There will also be 2 turret options.
x1 LARGE Resin miniature! No base supplied, as it will not be required! (ONLY available as an add-on for £22, RRP = £30)
More concept art and 3d renders to follow for this one!
In other news - the First batch of 3D prints have come in from Prodos, they are blooming lovely! I'll be making moulds of these next week, to show you all how it's going. The Commandos are very, very, very nice and the Gnomes are so cute!
If we were going to do Dark Elves now, we'd also have to do the Ogres, the Ratmen and the Vuoritroll (Mountain Trolls). We think they deserve their own big project.
Light Elves, genuinely, I am more excited for than most, but again, we think we could only do them justice in another campaign setting.
You can have Zombi Dark Elves though?
I have to say, this project has had ups and downs, but so far its been awesome. I can't wait to start casting the models. There will be a video today showing the first prints that Prodos has sent me. I'm expecting some parts from another printer too AND I have some physical sculpts from a few friends of mine.
The community has pulled together like heck on this one and it's GREAT!
We've just received some new concept art from Will of the Panzerbär and I couldn't resist showing it off.
The design is still a work in progress so will be tweaked and I don't know whether we'll be doing the cute little herder guy, but I thought you would all like to see it...
Panzerbär concept sketch
Will has also provide a concept drawing of the Gnome light snail tank. This isn't in the current (revealed) Stretch Goals <cough> £32,500 </cough> but as Rob is on his way to Arnhem I thought it wasn't a stretch goal too far (!) to show you all...
Gnome Light Snail Tank
Now this will probably be a lot smaller than the Panzerbär and Matilda War-Wyrm so I'm not sure whether we will do two to a set or at a lower price at the moment, but I will make an executive decision if it looks likely we'll get the funds to release it.
Ok, we're coming up on the final 48 hours, so let's get ready for the final push to the green fields beyond!
Supreme Overlord Steve
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update #48 ℹ
Nov 6 2015
The 48 Hour Countdown Begins...
The Kickstarter has entered its last 48 hours!
First off, I know Rob has thanked you all, but I'd just like to take this opportunity, as I sit here on my own in Hysterical Towers, to repeat that thanks. That the weird little game I devised 18 odd years ago has got this level of love and faith from you is truly humbling. Thank you one and all...
Hopefully in the last 48 hours we'll get a roll on and burst through the next few stretch goals and get to the Local Orc Volunteers. With the new Dad's Army film out next year no doubt many of you will want to recreate it on the tabletop Panzerfäuste style!
At long last I managed to get my hands on some of the Orc miniatures today and, well... wow! Even this old grognard was gob smacked at the detail. Hopefully I'll get a chance to slap some paint on them over the weekend.
Anyway, I know some of you have asked for size comparison shots. I have dug out some miniatures from my collection which I hope will show what you needed to see (usual caveat, other companies miniatures used purely for comparison purposes, no challenge to copyright and all the jazz...)
Here he is with some popular fantasy orcs...
Hysterical Orc with Mantic and GW friends...
Here he is about to win a game of Bolt Action...
Hysterical Orc about to chop up a Warlord German...
Will has also provide a concept drawing of the Gnome light snail tank. This isn't in the current (revealed) Stretch Goals <cough> £32,500 </cough> but as Rob is on his way to Arnhem I thought it wasn't a stretch goal too far (!) to show you all...
Gnome Light Snail Tank
Now this will probably be a lot smaller than the Panzerbär and Matilda War-Wyrm so I'm not sure whether we will do two to a set or at a lower price at the moment, but I will make an executive decision if it looks likely we'll get the funds to release it.
This weekend we will be closing down the PayPal option to get on board the Kickstarter if you missed out last year. So if you want to get on board at the start and pick up some KS bargains and exclusives drop us an email at hystericalgamesorders@gmail.com for more information right now!
