This is a spin off thread from the honor guard thread.

So I have dropped the Eldar argument and moved onto SW and DE.

There was a comment about luring in SW with a cheap dread or Rhino or something. My opponents won't take the bait on that. They are literally never going to let me assault them. Any "bait" will just get shot by grey hunters special weapons or long fangs.

What unit do you think they would go for?

They're going to shoot BA to pieces until they get the assault THEY want. They're going to go for the units they don't want assaulting them. Anything else would be silly on their part. The only real counter is to be shootier and force their hand.

Which isn't an option without allies. Which you've said yuck to.

Do they camp? Have you tried forcing them to come after you? Can you ever pick your own ground to fight?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Which isn't an option without allies. Which you've said yuck to.

Do they camp? Have you tried forcing them to come after you? Can you ever pick your own ground to fight?

I have to out shoot them to force them to come to me. Which the they do anyway once the TWC has the right angle on the DC.

What does the SW run normally?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
What does the SW run normally?

Typically LOTS of Thunder Wolf calvary, and then sometimes Drop Pod Grey Hunters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
What does the SW run normally?

Typically LOTS of Thunder Wolf calvary, and then sometimes Drop Pod Grey Hunters.

Usually two teams of TWC or one death star of TWC. Drop pod grey hunters and often, for some reason, long fangs still.

Forgive me if you've already tried this, but my suggestion based on the list you sent me. Change a tact squad and the stern guard's rhinos to a drop pods. This way you have two pods (plasma sterns & Fragiso) on the first turn to put pressure on the Long Fangs. Use your bikes and tacts to screen both Death Companies. Now here is the trick, one DC squad is the actual bait unit. The bait DC squad should change the power fist to a power sword so you can attack at initiative. And set up the second squad to charge into the TWC after they charged the first. With a little luck you might win the day.

Maybe. But everything in pods is going to die immediately. I really hate suicide Sternguard, because there are too many lists it fails against. And I never put plasma on them, so that's out.

I can understand using Long Fangs still.

Also, changing the Power Fist into a Sword is a terrible idea.

I'm really curious to see your list as well. I live in a really competitive area, so I can definitely help you in certain areas.

I use very different lists, as my win rates don't seem to go up with any particular build.

I use a lot of Rhino-based builds as Rhinos provide good protection from alpha strikes. The DC and bikers usually hide behind the tanks as long as they can.

Martel732 wrote:
I use very different lists, as my win rates don't seem to go up with any particular build.

I use a lot of Rhino-based builds as Rhinos provide good protection from alpha strikes. The DC and bikers usually hide behind the tanks as long as they can.

You must only be taking smaller DC squads if that's the case. I'll often have a 10 man Tac squad in a Rhino, although there's an overcharged Vindicator and Predator providing long range support that could act as shields for the first turn, at least...

I'm torn, as I often run a 10 man DC squad and am looking to include a 10 man SG squad as well (have the models, haven't played with SG yet). I'm regularly up against blobs of Ork Nobz with a Mad Doc, so 4+ saves plus feel no pain requires a hefty amount of attacks to make any real dents in what I'm up against. For smaller games (1,250 and below) I was managing just fine with a 5 man DC squad that held up well against CSM and SM armies.

I use 5 man DC squads usually unless they have a libby with them in which case I make it 10.

10 man SG most games would just die to AP 2.

I'm interested to see some lists that you and your opponents are using Martel, and what your able to put on the table model-wise.
I completely agree you need to out shoot another strong (likely superior assault) army to dictate its movement, at least for competent opponents.

That said I believe BAs are capable of this against SW. I've fielded SW for years in various iterations so I'm familiar with how the army functions in competitive and friendly environments.

DE otoh despite what internet wisdom says really has the upper hand against you unfortunately, and again assuming a competent pilot. However builds will vary so I suppose this might be case by case. I honestly can't remember the last time I felt outmatched vs BA or SW with my dark eldar though.

As I said, my usual lists center around range 18-24 with grav, MM, plasma and Sternguard.Unfortunately, this is right where SW want me. Of course, BA long range options are killing many TWC, either.

Quick question, you mentioned "they can safely ignore objectives till turn 4 or so after they have crippled the BA list".

How do you handle scoring in your missions?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Quick question, you mentioned "they can safely ignore objectives till turn 4 or so after they have crippled the BA list".

How do you handle scoring in your missions?

Usually set mission, no maelstrom. Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, my usual lists center around range 18-24 with grav, MM, plasma and Sternguard.Unfortunately, this is right where SW want me. Of course, BA long range options are killing many TWC, either.

Ya that IS right where wolves want you, and iirc you aren't open to allied forces or forgeworld.. correct?

Martel732 wrote:Maybe. But everything in pods is going to die immediately. I really hate suicide Sternguard, because there are too many lists it fails against. And I never put plasma on them, so that's out.

Yes it is, but if you take out the long fangs you'll be even. Trading a unit for an enemy unit is acceptable if you gain an advantage. If he loses his long range fire power you gain mobility because there are more safe places for your fast units. Plasma is ideal for suicide squads, the low survivability of plasma gunners is irreverent for this task.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also, changing the Power Fist into a Sword is a terrible idea.

The first DC unit is bait, so I figure they my not survive to initiative one. I would even be tempted to drop 1st squad's PF for another body in the 2nd squad. Depends on how perceptive the SW player is. Don't want to give away your hand too soon.

None of the SW players are going to fall for that. Plus, if they see plasma sternguard, they'll wrap the long fangs and give me no place to land. These people measure legal drop landing spots down to 1/2".

Long fangs aren't the problem IMO and they are better dealt with by something like a fragioso.

Martel- it sounds like your list is pretty much optimized outside of adding outside elements..
I'm assuming your running something like say FTST with 5 scouts, 20 combat squaded rhino sterns bare, 3-4 min sized triple grav bikes plus melta platforms of your choice right?

Similar. Often fewer sterns. It just depends.

Well if 'counts as' is out this is much less viable but have you considered some FW units? I've found relic sicarans (we're ok with baal preds) and fire raptors (real thing) really do work against the armies you listed, and in general really.

Edit- nm the raptor you'd need C:SM allies lol. Wtf huh

I agree, but I would never know when to field them. I might draw Eldar or Necron which just smoke the Sicaran too easily.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

They are as durable as any other av13 chassis, more-so than most due to range of their weaponry.. but I'm talking triplets. Something like this taking into account what you've said and I've seen:

chaplain jp, veritas vitae

ELITES
9 death company jp, 2 pf
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard (combat squad)

TROOPS
5 scouts

FA
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
rhino

HS
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons

TOTAL- 1851

1 pt over but whatever drop a cbweapon or something. I would feel fairly confident piloting this list against even the strongest lists. While I wouldn't call it favorable in many cases I think it has the tools to give a good showing. And that's even with a concession to my personal addiction to assault/counter assault units.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

Unfortunately at the end of the day your again correct. There's always red marines I guess..
I'm out.

I have found that playing maelstrom makes my BA more viable. They really can't stand up if the mission is just to kill your opponent. I personally would advocate maelstrom missions and if that doesn't go over then there's really nothing you can do.

These suggestions aren't ment to be the end all be all so dont get your panties in a twist y'all. Also playing the "yeah but the X-Y-Z will just blow them up first" is annoying, because I can just say "nuh-uh 'cause A-B-C would happen".
Strategizing doesn't have to devolve in to mean spirited "what ifs". This is pawn sacrifice straight up. Giving up a cheap unit to get a death star.

BAIT:
1. A 10 man tac squad with just bolters (to keep'em cheap) with a rhino can camp an objective. Theyre earning VPs and are juicy target. With an extra sb on the rhino they can tap the TWC for a wound a turn. Use said rhino to provide mobil cover or tank shock/herd the TWC into the right spot.

2. A regular old tl ac dread in cover is pretty survivable. It can also put a wound per turn on TWC & are versatile enough to hurt a lot of other targets.

Hammers:
1. Dante, sangpriest and 5 sangguard. Sitting in the backfield waiting to counter assault. Against meq Dantes a monster. If you wanna keep it cheap get a captain.

2. Three land speeders with cml & ac. Deep strike in (hopefully you've rolled DOA) to the side without the SS's & fire away.

3. 10 man sternpod with combi plas. Once you lure them outta cover drop on the side without SS's and drill'em.

Is it perfect? Easy? Nope. If you want that play eldar or 'crons. Use bait to put enemy units in the right spot, then jump'em. The pawn sacrifice strategy goes well with the msu lists.

No one needs to expend any particularly large effort to wreck a 10 man tac squad or a dreadnought. They're gunning for the hammer units, not the crap.

Martel732 wrote:
No one needs to expend any particularly large effort to wreck a 10 man tac squad or a dreadnought. They're gunning for the hammer units, not the crap.

The hammer units, as I mentioned are either in reserve or hidden away. When he comes out a'gunning he leaves the security of his fire support umbrella. At which point its safer to bring in the hammers and attack him.

Ignoring a 10 man tac on an objective with a rhino ain't easy. Not only can they score a wound per turn their footprint is large. Going around them aint easy, and TWC aren't skimmers or jumpers. They cant go over them to get to your hammers.

The dread in covers a real nuisance. Maybe not like the tac squad, but it still scores and wounds big stuff at 48".

Feint. Thrust. Its a tactic. We either build strategies or buy allies.

dominuschao wrote:
They are as durable as any other av13 chassis, more-so than most due to range of their weaponry.. but I'm talking triplets. Something like this taking into account what you've said and I've seen:

chaplain jp, veritas vitae

ELITES
9 death company jp, 2 pf
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard (combat squad)

TROOPS
5 scouts

FA
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
rhino

HS
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons

TOTAL- 1851

1 pt over but whatever drop a cbweapon or something. I would feel fairly confident piloting this list against even the strongest lists. While I wouldn't call it favorable in many cases I think it has the tools to give a good showing. And that's even with a concession to my personal addiction to assault/counter assault units.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

Unfortunately at the end of the day your again correct. There's always red marines I guess..
I'm out.

With a list like this why even play BA? Use codex space marines for access to better chapter tactics. That list is generic. The only BA unique unit here is DC and you only have the one squad. If your goal is to rhino rush why not get free ones from a battle company with chapter tactics that lend themselves to mid range shooty units.

"why even play BA?"

That sums up a lot.

Lol! Seriously though- in an edition where a lot of armies use allies, BA could still be helpful. Wouldn't a BSF loaded up with four MSU death company squads add some punch to a vanilla battle company, for example? People on dakka generally seem to agree that there are only a few good BA units to choose from, and the other marine books do everything else better.. Why not just ally the two? or ally in a knight? Or ally in inquisition? BA players have a lot of options actually, compared to an army like Nids. Is there a badge we get for playing one codex? Someone already asked why are some of us still trying to play 5th? /rant

Martel wants to get it done without allies. Chapter pride and whatnot. Moving on:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Regarding objectives, you saw this post right? I do think you're at a disadvantage if objectives are irrelevant for 4 turns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/666304.page#8176929

Loadout-wise, from past posts it seems you used mostly Plasma, Grav, Melta, Lascannons and such, right? You are going to get shut down hard by non-armour saves. Against multi-saves you're better off piling up wounds than running low AP weapons. The weapons above tend to be very expensive, and the platforms too, which makes your army smaller and hence more brittle. You will furthermore get less mileage out of modifiers like Prescience, Forewarning, FNP, Misfortune and others that relate to the size of the squad.

Have you ever considered a radically different approach? Go for Veritas Vitae, Corbulo to reroll, then infiltrate Scouts to attack ASAP. We neutralize Scatterbikes, who are faster and outrange us, by being sneakier and shooting them first. Combi-Gravs, HB and Sniper Rifles will give you a lot of range and flexibility, 2+ cover saves will give you resiliency, Obsec will deny Objectives, and having more models will protect your ICs and give you better mileage for buffs like FNP and Forewarning.

When Wraithknights show up, tarpit them with Forewarning, rather than spending 100pts for 3x Grav Bikes that will be instantly focused down by Scatterbikes in one volley. Now you can piecemeal their army or counter-charge them with a pumped up Instant Death psyker. I know Fire Baals (lol) aren't your thing but you can use them to Ram skimmers (lol) then flame both the skimmer and the embarked squad inside (lol). Get a 4++ on it so it makes it there. In fact with Prescience you're rerolling wounds which will force a lot of failed saves with a pure flamer build. Yeah there's no flexibility but is it really much worse than 3x Flamers on Tacs in a Pod?

Rework your HQ at least so you can get 2 Strat traits, Corbulo's rerolls and and 7MLs. You need to stop looking for your best units, they won't cut it. What we want now is dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!

Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

Tpiddy wrote:
Lol! Seriously though- in an edition where a lot of armies use allies, BA could still be helpful. Wouldn't a BSF loaded up with four MSU death company squads add some punch to a vanilla battle company, for example? People on dakka generally seem to agree that there are only a few good BA units to choose from, and the other marine books do everything else better.. Why not just ally the two? or ally in a knight? Or ally in inquisition? BA players have a lot of options actually, compared to an army like Nids. Is there a badge we get for playing one codex? Someone already asked why are some of us still trying to play 5th? /rant

Because all that costs $$. And by the time I spend for allies, I might as well switch armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

But what happens when I have the flamers against GK for example? I have to build my lists blind. Tailored suggestions don't help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel wants to get it done without allies. Chapter pride and whatnot. Moving on:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Regarding objectives, you saw this post right? I do think you're at a disadvantage if objectives are irrelevant for 4 turns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/666304.page#8176929

Loadout-wise, from past posts it seems you used mostly Plasma, Grav, Melta, Lascannons and such, right? You are going to get shut down hard by non-armour saves. Against multi-saves you're better off piling up wounds than running low AP weapons. The weapons above tend to be very expensive, and the platforms too, which makes your army smaller and hence more brittle. You will furthermore get less mileage out of modifiers like Prescience, Forewarning, FNP, Misfortune and others that relate to the size of the squad.

Have you ever considered a radically different approach? Go for Veritas Vitae, Corbulo to reroll, then infiltrate Scouts to attack ASAP. We neutralize Scatterbikes, who are faster and outrange us, by being sneakier and shooting them first. Combi-Gravs, HB and Sniper Rifles will give you a lot of range and flexibility, 2+ cover saves will give you resiliency, Obsec will deny Objectives, and having more models will protect your ICs and give you better mileage for buffs like FNP and Forewarning.

When Wraithknights show up, tarpit them with Forewarning, rather than spending 100pts for 3x Grav Bikes that will be instantly focused down by Scatterbikes in one volley. Now you can piecemeal their army or counter-charge them with a pumped up Instant Death psyker. I know Fire Baals (lol) aren't your thing but you can use them to Ram skimmers (lol) then flame both the skimmer and the embarked squad inside (lol). Get a 4++ on it so it makes it there. In fact with Prescience you're rerolling wounds which will force a lot of failed saves with a pure flamer build. Yeah there's no flexibility but is it really much worse than 3x Flamers on Tacs in a Pod?

Rework your HQ at least so you can get 2 Strat traits, Corbulo's rerolls and and 7MLs. You need to stop looking for your best units, they won't cut it. What we want now is dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!

Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

But Astorath is terrible. I mean awful.

We'll agree to disagree on Astorath, as I'm of the same mindset as Reecius from Frontlinegaming in thinking that he's awesome. Say what you will, but Astorath is a VERY potent anti death star tool.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664226.page

Also, this is my favorite list at the moment. It's not the best BA list I have, but it combines being a blast to play with being fairly strong. My last game with it was actually against eldar, with my opponent using a combination of the wraith and windrider hosts. It was a couple weeks ago, but this was the general list from memory.

Spiritseer
Farseer on bike with a small warlock conclave

2x5 wraithguard with cannons in wave serpents
5x wraithguard with scythes in a wave serpent
Wraithlord with scatter lasers
Wraithknight with D cannons

3x3 scat-bikes
Vyper

Tough fight, but I managed to pull it off. Game was spearhead deployment, killpoints.

Astorath does not scale well vs good opponents, versus opponents familiar with his multiplier they will avoid the DC blob, since they are not very durable they will get shot to death.

I have had some games vs. DA, i have found AC LC Preds to be very useful as they force jink saves vs the support squadron (which everyone is running) and black knights. Even though Preds are generally bad, they don't break the bank and are mobile. Jump units won't work vs DA really unless you have a ton of LOS breaking terrain.

VS Space Wolves DC are quite good, but TWC have fleet and no charge penality, so their threat range is superior. MSU DC and try to deny multi charging seems like a good bet. But then again a good space wolf lists probably won't have TWC.

Interesting read. I don't know how your meta feels about multiple detachments, but when you said about we need to outshoot them back I got to thinking...

An alterative approach might be threat saturation. I don't have a battle scribe device (damn Windows phone) or codex to hand, so I haven't pointed this up, but consider the following as a supplement to an bike/DC/ assault detachment.

FTSF
Cheap priest
Cheap scouts
3-4 empty fast slot rhinos
3 fast vindis (or other heavy slot)

Use the empty rhinos to block los or at least give decent cover to your high threat vehicles.

Everyone knows Vindis can bring the pain if given the chance so you opponent may focus on them, giving your assault element the chance to get into position and charge.

Shame we can't do squadrons and get the bonuses, but still...could be interesting. Especially against death star centric lists...DE probably wouldn't be too phased by it though.

D

For Martel's specific case, making mono BA competitive in his gaming climate ain't going to happen.
I admire this tenacity (masochism ?) though - I gave up playing BA when the codex hit.

In reality, you have three solutions :-

1. Get allies (borrow models, use proxies if money is an issue)
2. Change your play group to a more relaxed one
3. Move away from 40K altogether - it isn't going to get balanced any time soon, and will perhaps get worse. X-Wing is cheap to start for example.

Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

I second this point. Though I will say that giving up on shooting entirely is a mistake. Various preds, grav bikes or different speacial weapon toting units in drop pods are required to do things like crack transports and/or strip hullpoints from things like knights or wounds from WKs before we assault them.

Also, I cannot stress enough how much luck I am having with multiple big units of assault marines with priests. Spamming the feth out of feel no pain with 30+ ws5 dudes who are also str5 on the charge has actually been MORE effective than death co, as the ability to lug around actual guns is pretty invaluable.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

As to your post overall, I am in partial agreement. I have to say that I think drop melta ASM and Dante are kinda weak, though. I think the answer is likely that there is no answer, showing that BA are indeed inferior to SW and DE. Now shall we do the same for Tyranids, Orks, and CSM and show who is really on the bottom?

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

Run Meph with Corbulo, he gets pumped to WS7 and I6. So with S10, Force up, and enough attacks, you can ideally down a WK or two before they strike. In fact he could probably solo a 600pt Corpsethief Claw in one assault phase with enough ID attacks. Let's see Dante do that lol.

Not much mobility but maybe you can countercharge big targets you successfully Tarpit.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

Run Meph with Corbulo, he gets pumped to WS7 and I6. So with S10, Force up, and enough attacks, you can ideally down a WK or two before they strike. In fact he could probably solo a 600pt Corpsethief Claw in one assault phase with enough ID attacks. Let's see Dante do that lol.

Not much mobility but maybe you can countercharge big targets you successfully Tarpit.

Usually Mephy and his squad eat Eldar shooting till they are gone. Eldar players know what he can do to WKs. The Eldar's ability to shoot almost anything off the table at will makes their trump card units even trumpier.

They don't stand a chance unless you get board control.

So 220pts in Dante, or troops coming out of reserve, is not an option. You need to neutralize the Scatterbikes at the top of T1.

If you can do that, fragile punchy units like Grav Bikes/MM Bikes/Meph+Corbulo can actually get the chance to act.

Still really not seeing how BA are inferior to DE and SW at all. Nothing I have seen in this thread has changed my mind on that. DE are like more fragile eldar with less firepower, so our shooting options become more potent (particularly against their transports, which takes away their mobility) and our CC units are more likely to get into combat in meaningful numbers. Space wolves have exactly one scary unit in TWC, everything else is moderately annoying at best. Long fangs can pack a lot of firepower, but what else do they have that's so good against us? Counter attack doesn't do much when we're striking before them and the no longer get bp+bolter+ccw for free.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that the BA dex is better than or even on par with the Eldar book, or even the marine book for that matter. I just don't think those matchups are as unwinnable as everyone seems to think.

So my position stands, we are on par with wolves, equal to or better than DE and orks, and better than chaos.

th3maninblak, I agree with you on all points except on DE and Orks. Orks are in terrible shape due to an awful codex, and DE have much more CC ability than regular Eldar. IMO Blood Angels are equal to Dark Eldar and greatly superior to Orks.

Funny, I'd put the Orks considerably ahead of the BA due to being counter-meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Funny, I'd put the Orks considerably ahead of the BA due to being counter-meta.

Yes, plus Green Tide+ Void Shields has been proven to be a very viable build

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still really not seeing how BA are inferior to DE and SW at all. Nothing I have seen in this thread has changed my mind on that. DE are like more fragile eldar with less firepower, so our shooting options become more potent (particularly against their transports, which takes away their mobility) and our CC units are more likely to get into combat in meaningful numbers. Space wolves have exactly one scary unit in TWC, everything else is moderately annoying at best. Long fangs can pack a lot of firepower, but what else do they have that's so good against us? Counter attack doesn't do much when we're striking before them and the no longer get bp+bolter+ccw for free.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that the BA dex is better than or even on par with the Eldar book, or even the marine book for that matter. I just don't think those matchups are as unwinnable as everyone seems to think.

So my position stands, we are on par with wolves, equal to or better than DE and orks, and better than chaos.

Most BA lists I've seen do not strike before SW. That means they are dead angels. And the TWC can literally run over an entire BA list. They really don't need much else to be better.

I don't have faith in BA shooting to get through the night shields against DE. That much pretty means their transports are good to go in my view.

Now I'm convinced you just don't know how to deal with TWC. Assault them with death co at a 2 to 1 ratio after shooting at them. Problem solved. They have really never given me any trouble.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Now I'm convinced you just don't know how to deal with TWC. Assault them with death co at a 2 to 1 ratio after shooting at them. Problem solved. They have really never given me any trouble.

Good SW players never let that happen. Ever. The DC are too obvious. If you spoiling assault them, they die. Just make sure that happens and you're golden. Hell, I do that to other BA players in mirror matches. I NEVER get assaulted by DC unless I'm forcing them to assault a Rhino/razorback.

With a list like this why even play BA? Use codex space marines for access to better chapter tactics. That list is generic. The only BA unique unit here is DC and you only have the one squad. If your goal is to rhino rush why not get free ones from a battle company with chapter tactics that lend themselves to mid range shooty units.

It may be generic in that C:SM can produce most of those units but it consists of the most effective 'anti meta' units available to blood angels which was really the point. I'm not a fan of that spitball list but BA can't really produce anything arguably better.

Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

No one said the key to winning with BA was anything of the sort. I said the key to dictating the movement of the specific army he was referring to (SW) is with shooting. Without guns they have no motivation to close with the units you want and instead shoot you to pieces until they set up the assault they want. That is literally the root of the problem with BAs. They cannot effectively combine shooting with assault yet they are an assault army. Its also why dark eldar are straight better, among many other reasons. I do agree on focusing on the strengths of the book, however while this works in a vacuum it really doesn't on paper. The fact that grot bombs and dark artisan are even considered effective against fast chassis is, if anything, evidence of how bad BA are. The sicarans was an attempt at adding some power of the non allied variety but if you think they are poor you've never faced 3 and I guarantee you 3 sicarans is better than the single IK they come close to in cost (and is an ally). They can even reliably threaten flyers and FMCs and thats without the legacy.

As to your post overall, I am in partial agreement. I have to say that I think drop melta ASM and Dante are kinda weak, though. I think the answer is likely that there is no answer, showing that BA are indeed inferior to SW and DE. Now shall we do the same for Tyranids, Orks, and CSM and show who is really on the bottom?

I've always put BA dead last in the rank hierarchy. But ya agreed.

I don't have faith in BA shooting to get through the night shields against DE. That much pretty means their transports are good to go in my view.

Plus DE have superior firepower superior assault and superior movement. Its only down to durability of their troops that they fall short vs BA.

So listening to all of this, apparently it's impossible that I took down a 1500 point tournament with pure BA, facing down iron hands drop pod centurions and 2 eldar lists? This was what I took.

1500 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Librarian
Lvl2
Gallien's Staff
Jump pack
-Mephiston
Warlord

Elites
-10x Death Company
2x power fists
Jump packs
-Command Squad
3x melta guns
3x storm shields
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns

Heavy Support
-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons
-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons

What kind of idiotic Eldar players did you run into?

Th3maniblak- I do like your tac setup, pretty cool.

I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

It's too bad 40k doesn't have a replay feature!

Don't tourneys nerf Eldar?

Might be Maelstrom rules and terrain too

@th3maninblak

Were the eldar army's constructed using "tournament rules"? Rules that allow only 1 LoW or no formations?

Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

Yeah, but what if there's more than one? Or 1 wk plus a big squad of wg? Im having trouble seeing it, the road to victory with this army list against Eldar. Twice.

As for DE, drop heavy flamers from tac & sternguard? With Corbulo in one for a plus 1 initiative & ws bubble? That'll help with wych & haemonculous monster counter charge.

Not nerf so much as limit things like detachment numbers and lords of war. Like you can field a wraithknight, but only one. The only army that gets around that is imperial knights.

The first eldar opponent was using a pretty standard list with 12 scat bikes, a few wave serpents, and a couple squads of various aspect warriors. The second I can't really count, as he was playing old school foot-dar using like every decurion style formation he could. To be fair though, he has been playing eldar since like 3rd or 4th edition, is one of the better players at our shop and had tabled his previous opponents (met him in the final round).

And thank you for the compliment on my tac squad setup! I swear by it, at this point.

Edit: formations were allowed, but had a 0-1 LoW limit. Decurion style detachments were also allowed. As for terrain, it was pretty heavy. Usually ruins near the 4 corners, a large piece of line of sight blocking terrain in the center, and area terrain scattered throughout the table.

 Red Marine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even one WK is a huge problem for BA, though.

Isn't that what grav-spam bikers are for? Turn one: get into position, Turn two: pop combi-gravs and take down Wraithknight?

Yeah, but what if there's more than one? Or 1 wk plus a big squad of wg? Im having trouble seeing it, the road to victory with this army list against Eldar. Twice.

As for DE, drop heavy flamers from tac & sternguard? With Corbulo in one for a plus 1 initiative & ws bubble? That'll help with wych & haemonculous monster counter charge.

That's why you take more than one squad of grav bikers. Three minimum squads with all combi-gravs should be able to kill a Wraithknight. Sternguard are best left for combi-meltas for taking out a second Wraithknight or other superheavy (though you'll need some extra ranged support for the second one).

Dual Heavy Flamers in a Drop Pod Tac Squad are great against troops in Raiders, but not against Venom Spam. Unfortunately, that's all the Heavy Flamers are good for. No sane DE player takes Wyches; they're one of the worst units in the codex. While they would work well against Reaver jetbikes, they have the mobility to avoid the squad entirely. Incubi have too good a save (along with most HQ characters thanks to LoS!), and the Coven units are tough enough to shrug off even two heavy flamers. All of the units I mentioned are nasty enough to cut the Tac squad to ribbons and tie up/potentially kill Corbulo. Incubi, especially as bodyguards to a CC Archon or Succubus, can give Death company a run for their money if they get the charge. Reavers are nasty with their Bladevanes and Cluster Caltrops on the charge. Coven units don't care about you having more Initiative; they're just crazy tough fro their price. Pain Engines are tough enough to tie most any unit up, and Grotesques will wear you down through sheer number of S5 attacks and T5 wounds you have to chew through.

If I was using troops in pods, I'd make them dual melta Assault Marines and leave the Tac Marines in a Rhino/Razorback. Don't underestimate Dark Eldar in the assault; they have plenty of units that will eat anything short of Sanguinary Guard/Dante/Mephiston/Death Company, and threaten those units as well.

Edit: Double Post.

Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

Honestly, despite what Martel732 will say, it's often an even matchup between your average Dark Eldar or Space Wolf Army and your average Blood Angel army. Where things get problematic is when you get to the highly competitive level. Blood Angels will struggle against ThunderCav/Wolfstar and things like Jimsolo's Freakshow lists (look those up; as it turns out, Harlequins are incredibly good!). But I think that mono-Blood Angels could work at that level with something like MSU Death Company with Grav Biker and character support. I'm not familiar with Blood Angels, so what would that kind of list look like? From what Martel732 has posted before, he should have the units to make a list like that.

Since WK can't fire Overwatch, Dantestar(Dante, Sanguinary Guard with Swords and Axes, Sanguinary Priest) does stand a fair chance of cutting apart a Wraithknight. Dante's stupid amount of attacks at I7 plus a bunch of Sanguinary Guard attacks at I5 means it is going to be having to make a lot of saves. But they are going to need to kill it before it can retaliate, because they WILL get stomped to death. Unfortunately, with W6, the numbers aren't in their favor.

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

We can't beat any competitive Eldar lists except perhaps the webway portal/d-scythe list, and we need to tailor vs that one. Eldar are in no way required to take Wraithknights either to beat us, but it does help. A simple aspect host list will most likely table a mono BA list in 3-4 turns.

Mono DA lists are rock paper scissors depending on what we bring, we need mostly durable assault units (bikes with IC' and MSU DC if table is terrain heavy) and units that can force jinks reliably. If you bring alot of shooting, you will probably loose.

Space Wolves is a pretty close matchup, but the puppies have a small edge on avg.

I was a big fan of the drop pod melta ASM when the codex hit, but in practice i think they are quite bad due to the meta. People just don't bring mech anymore and you will often run into jinking transports. It's good vs IG, but you should have a decent chanse vs them regardless. They are still good vs multiple knights, but how often do you see that? Knights weakness are not melta, but msu in most missions. And power armor models are the ideal tarpit knight unit.

I met 2 lists with knights last tournament, small bike squads/MM attack back were able to deal with the knight and when facing non mech lists they felt way more useful than suicide melta squads podding in. ASM really shine taking the free Rhino running 2 melta or plasma. Scouts are miles better than tacticals in the troop slot even with bs3 ws3.

BA get much better with allies. I don't really agree with the argument 'i might as well play something else' because personally i enjoy playing BA, but i don't enjoy getting tabeled on a consistant basis. It's rare to see mono DA or SW in a tournament, and in casual homegames BA book is actually pretty balanced if not all players are building WAAC lists. The difference between these settings are huge. For homegames i usually tone down my mono BA lists, but in tournaments i struggle even if i bring allies, but it keeps the game interesting as it's still possible to compete with them.

Just my personal opinion

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Remtek wrote:
We can't beat any competitive Eldar lists except perhaps the webway portal/d-scythe list, and we need to tailor vs that one. Eldar are in no way required to take Wraithknights either to beat us, but it does help. A simple aspect host list will most likely table a mono BA list in 3-4 turns.

Mono DA lists are rock paper scissors depending on what we bring, we need mostly durable assault units (bikes with IC' and MSU DC if table is terrain heavy) and units that can force jinks reliably. If you bring alot of shooting, you will probably loose.

Space Wolves is a pretty close matchup, but the puppies have a small edge on avg.

I was a big fan of the drop pod melta ASM when the codex hit, but in practice i think they are quite bad due to the meta. People just don't bring mech anymore and you will often run into jinking transports. It's good vs IG, but you should have a decent chanse vs them regardless. They are still good vs multiple knights, but how often do you see that? Knights weakness are not melta, but msu in most missions. And power armor models are the ideal tarpit knight unit.

I met 2 lists with knights last tournament, small bike squads/MM attack back were able to deal with the knight and when facing non mech lists they felt way more useful than suicide melta squads podding in. ASM really shine taking the free Rhino running 2 melta or plasma. Scouts are miles better than tacticals in the troop slot even with bs3 ws3.

BA get much better with allies. I don't really agree with the argument 'i might as well play something else' because personally i enjoy playing BA, but i don't enjoy getting tabeled on a consistant basis. It's rare to see mono DA or SW in a tournament, and in casual homegames BA book is actually pretty balanced if not all players are building WAAC lists. The difference between these settings are huge. For homegames i usually tone down my mono BA lists, but in tournaments i struggle even if i bring allies, but it keeps the game interesting as it's still possible to compete with them.

Just my personal opinion

Everyone is pointing to libby conclave as the thing to do. Invis melee guys are invis melee guys I guess. It's probably the only ally the BA really have that's going to make a difference. IK are just more victim units, imo.

Grav Cents, T-Fire Cannon, Drop Skitarii, White Scars and several more that can make BA lists better. While it's true it would probably be better to remove BA altogheter, you can still make a usable core with 70% BA then throw in some good shooting units from other books or a force multiplier. If someone says they are playing Grey Knights, i expect they have some form of allies. I feel BA is in the same place, except weaker. We can make better mono fluffy lists, but competitive wise our book is very small.

Remtek wrote:
Grav Cents, T-Fire Cannon, Drop Skitarii, White Scars and several more that can make BA lists better. While it's true it would probably be better to remove BA altogheter, you can still make a usable core with 70% BA then throw in some good shooting units from other books or a force multiplier. If someone says they are playing Grey Knights, i expect they have some form of allies. I feel BA is in the same place, except weaker. We can make better mono fluffy lists, but competitive wise our book is very small.

Mono GK actually don't do too bad. Lvl 3 Libs, Draigo and Dreadknights prop the book up. As with anything though, they're better with allies.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.

I'n not disputing that but the3maninblak's list has 36 models and 5 vehicles. These numbers aren't far off from Deathwing!

Your sturdiest units are:

- Scouts (in cover)
- Assault Marines (free Rhino)
- Devastators (14ppm ablatives)
- Rhinos and Whirlwinds (45/65ppm)
- Drop pods (35ppm)
- Quad Mortar (60pts)

In a dual CAD list focused around economy, you can field 74 infantry models, 8 vehicles, 5MLs to buff 8x Lascannons, a +1 Init/+1 WS aura, some of the best CC support and beatsticks in the game, and a 56% chance to Seize. This is like a demi-company numbers except you probably suck way less in assault.

I know you are attached to those fast shooty units, but they're like bishops who can only trade for pawns.

So wait a minute, we lose to Eldar warhost lists? How? The list I posted probably isn't even my strongest, just MAYBE my best at that points level. The scatbike spam lists are definitely an uphill fight, one that I have to pull out some tricks to win. But I learned to play this game with 4th edition chaos during 5th ed, and my 2 opponents played MSU mech guard at its height. I literally started playing this game using one of the weakest armies in the game consistently playing against one of the best. Even using my best list against the most cut throat eldar army I can bash my skull into, it STILL doesn't feel as bad as old chaos vs the best guard book ever printed.

One thing to remember is that scat bikes suffer from leadership issues pretty hard. You don't usually have to kill them all, maybe just enough to force a morale test and then with a bit of luck, they fall back 3d6 off the table. The marine 1st company task force does a fantastic job of this and gives you ready made allies in the form of drop sternguard. Fear of the dark is also back breaking in these circumstances.

My current MSU BA list puts 11 separate units on the table, not including dedicated transports. Against Eldar, I have a small unit of grav bikes to concuss it and strip some wounds, alongside a couple lazorbacks to at least hurt it before I multi assault with small squads of death co to let the fists finish it off. And before you say it'll never happen, that is EXACTLY how I handle wraithknights. Remember that on the charge our power fists wound it on 3s.

To deal with bikes, I have 2x5 sternguard with various combis and a fragnought podding in on turn1, with 2 more sternguard units dropping in later. Thats enough to at least force ld6 tests on 3 different bike units unless they've reserved or spread out to high hell, in which case they have lost a significant portion of their turn 1 firepower.

One thing to remember is that scat bikes suffer from leadership issues pretty hard. You don't usually have to kill them all, maybe just enough to force a morale test and then with a bit of luck, they fall back 3d6 off the table.

This is how you deal with scatbikes. It's also one reason those aformentioned elite units are better then scouts. Now I'm a huge fan of scouts and I've run lists with upwards of 40 but they just don't present a proper threat against the meta dominating units. Forcing moral checks and jink is a huge part of this game right now due to eldar and so is dealing with GMCs and meq/mech. Scouts are solid but they don't address those issues, while having a plan hinging on psych buffs isn't reliable due to farseers and conclaves among other things.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

Martel I think you have too many expensive FA and Elites choices in your list. 10x Scouts with a 2+ and Endurance can soak up 1485pts of Scatterbike fire, unsupported Grav bikers die under 135pts. If your premium units don't apply damage and cripple Eldar in T1 you will lose, and those units are not hurting your opponents enough.

Example, Flamer Tacs in a Las/Plas Razorback. 185pts. Let's say there are equivalent points in Scatterbikes facing you (about 7). If he fires first, you get glanced about 6 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose. If you fire first, best-case scenario you kill 3 Bikes. If he fires back, you get glanced ~3.5 times. Now your Tacs are crippled. You lose.

You literally have a better chance using dismounted Tacs with a missile launcher. Equal points is about 3 Jetbikes. You fire first, you kill a Jetbike. He fires, you lose a Tac or two. You fire again, he loses the 2nd Jetbike. You lose a 3rd Tac. He loses his final Jetbike. You win.

Actually just kidding, I used a BS5 Dev squad because Tacs suck. But I wanted to show you something. Premium FA and Elites such as Bike units, Sternguard, DC/Sang/Command squads cannot deliver damage quickly enough to make a difference. Then they get shot off the table. You need to organize to cripple his outgoing damage ASAP and survive 5-7 turns of attrition. When a 3+ model is 20-31pts, it cannot survive long enough to win the fight, and if it's embarked, or short-range and outmaneuvered, it won't even get there.

So dude you are not wrong. But you're not going to win by relying on "good" units, you need some chaff to soak up fire while you grind down the Scatterbikes. Or you need an AV13 wall and AV14 flank, to keep everything screened long enough to get into strike range. Gladius has a few hundred free points to throw away on the approach but you will need to be more clever.

This is the same problem with DE and SW. I looked over Grav bikes, a 3+ Jink or 3++/4+++ will blunt your damage and then you cannot survive the return. I'm guessing you can't crank up your shooting any more without FW or allies. So at this point, what you need to do is build a more resilient list and angle harder for first-turn damage from every single unit on the board.

Obviously a multi-unit list gets more complicated than that, but I think this explains your Scatterbike frustrations.

Notsureifserious.gif.

Yoyoyo, are you trying to give out bad advice? Because what you wrote could not be more ineffective.

If you're comparing Tac Marines to Scatbikers, the Tac Marines will always lose. Scatbikers simply put out entirely too much firepower for their cost. Second, Scatbikers are usually fielded in groups of five in order to maximize the firepower for a small footprint. third, you admitted that your math was intentionally misleading.

The "premium" units for Blood Angels are where the massed firepower is concentrated for the army. Tac Marines and Scouts are not versatile enough to handle the kind of threats out there in the current game. If you want, chaff, use minimum-size Scouts for scoring objectives. Martel732 himself has pointed out that Bolter Scouts with Camo Cloaks and Melta Bombs have been decent for their cost. Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP .

An AV13/14 wall? Yeah, because Eldar of all types are known for their crippling lack or ranged anti-tank. They lack S8, Melta, or D-weapon shooting of any kind. In fact, Eldar have only gotten worse in that respect with their new codex!

Blood Angels cannot rely on the same sort of tactics as vanilla Marines to be effective. They have to concentrate on the unique and effective units in their own codex if they don't want to rely on allies. I don't play Blood Angels, and even I can figure this out.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe you're right, but the "good" units work the field pretty well relatively speaking.

I'n not disputing that but the3maninblak's list has 36 models and 5 vehicles. These numbers aren't far off from Deathwing!

Your sturdiest units are:

- Scouts (in cover)
- Assault Marines (free Rhino)
- Devastators (14ppm ablatives)
- Rhinos and Whirlwinds (45/65ppm)

In a dual CAD list focused around economy, you can field 74 infantry models, 8 vehicles, 5MLs to buff 8x Lascannons, a +1 Init/+1 WS aura, some of the best CC support and beatsticks in the game, and a 56% chance to Seize. This is like a demi-company numbers except you probably suck way less in assault.

I know you are attached to those fast shooty units, but they're like bishops who can only trade for pawns.

Scouts in cover with Camo Cloaks can do work, but nly as warm bodies to hold objectives. If you want real durability, you're better off elsewhere.
Assault marines are nothing compared to Death Company. One free Rhino or Drop Pod also won't make a difference.
Devastators are effective, but very squishy. Predators are more durable and cheaper as well.
Rhinos and Whirlwinds are hardly durable. AV11 is where Dark Eldar top off. Scatbikers and any sort of S6/7 shooting cut through Rhinos easily.

Fast shooty and choppy units are what Blood Angles are all about. If you want to try using the tactics you're espousing, Yoyoyo, play vanilla marines.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP

Scouts are T4 right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Casting Endurance on a giant blob of Scouts sounds like a good idea...until you realize that Scouts are only T3 and Scatbikers will negate that FNP

Scouts are T4 right?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The rest of my points still stand.

Stick around, you might learn something

@themaninblak, I like the LD warfare angle. What else does BA have for LD manipulation?

@Dominus, I agree with your general principles, however couldn't we also force Jink dilemmas and LD fails using a single HK missile? That means we can stay MSU and assault focused. Pure shooting can also be shut down through Psykers (Invis and Fortune mean it takes 160 Grav shots to kill a WK), so neutralizing Seer Council has to be a priority in general. DE and SW probably won't be able to shut our Psychic game down as hard.

@NewBlood, they are still T4 3+ models at the top of turn 1. If it bleeds, we can kill it

Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

They also gain preferred enemy against one unit and all models (including the pods I think) gain fear and fearless.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Fear of the Dark, the Crown Angelic, Death Masks, and Dante's relic. That's why I brought up the 1st Company Task Force formation, as any enemy unit within 12in of at least 3 units of the formation (drop pods included) suffers a -2 penalty to their leadership. With sternguard in pods, you can easily cover a large area in leadership penalties. At that point we just have to take advantage of it, either via shooting morale tests, fear, or the FotD psychic power. To be fair, this strategy doesn't work as well against marines, but we don't necessarily need that much help against them.

They also gain preferred enemy against one unit and all models (including the pods I think) gain fear and fearless.

Precisely! Which makes their combi melta and plasma guns very good at helping bring down Wraithknights. Being able to take out 2 to 3 bike squads on the first turn severely decreases the amount of firepower we have to stare down. Wraithknights, while scary, aren't that offensively powerful at range. 2 shots at bs4, even at str D, isn't all that scary against things that aren't vehicles or monsters. Here's the list I've been working on.

1,850 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Brother Corbulo
Warlord

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-Furioso Dreadnought
Frag Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Vet sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

I like that Sternguard formation, it has so much general utility and really takes pressure off the more dangerous BA units advancing upfield. I also added Drop Pods to the 'sturdy' list. They are 3HP for 35pts after all!

Onto your LD warfare list, you can add:
- Mephiston, Transfixing Gaze (which overrides Invisibility)
- Psychic Shriek, Terrify, and Dominate
- Battle of Calth (-1Ld to enemy warlord within 12")
- Intimidating Presence WL Trait (enemy units within 12" use lowest LD value)
- Quad Mortar (forces Pinning at -1LD)

Yoyoyo wrote:
I like that Sternguard formation, it has so much general utility and really takes pressure off the more dangerous BA units advancing upfield. I also added Drop Pods to the 'sturdy' list. They are 3HP for 35pts after all!

Onto your LD warfare list, you can add:
- Mephiston, Transfixing Gaze (which overrides Invisibility)
- Psychic Shriek, Terrify, and Dominate
- Battle of Calth (-1Ld to enemy warlord within 12")
- Intimidating Presence WL Trait (enemy units within 12" use lowest LD value)

So is this kind of like Freakshow lists but with Blood Angels? I'm kind of digging the idea of that. Its very unique in the grand scheme of things.

 th3maninblak wrote:


Precisely! Which makes their combi melta and plasma guns very good at helping bring down Wraithknights. Being able to take out 2 to 3 bike squads on the first turn severely decreases the amount of firepower we have to stare down. Wraithknights, while scary, aren't that offensively powerful at range. 2 shots at bs4, even at str D, isn't all that scary against things that aren't vehicles or monsters. Here's the list I've been working on.

1,850 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Brother Corbulo
Warlord

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-Furioso Dreadnought
Frag Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Vet sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Finally! A list posted in this thread that doesn't suck! I still have some questions and comments though.

Where is Brother Corbulo going? Is he joining the Sternguard? I don't think that he fits the theme of the list well. I would argue for a ML2 Librarian with Gallian's Staff rolling on Sanguinary if you're dead set on the leadership shenanigans.

Not quite sold on the dual hand flamers on the Veteran sarges. Combi-flamers would be better IMO.

If we're going to use the 1st Company Task Force, we might as well go full-turkey. Drop the biker squad to give everyone in the Sternguard Squads a Combi-weapon. I'd recommend two squads of full combi-melta, one combi-grav, and one combi-plasma. Take out Wraithknights with the combi-gravs and combi-meltas, kill Scatbikers with the Fragioso and the combi-plasmas. Death Company clean up whatever's left.

It may involve using a formation from the vanilla marine book, but at this point Blood Angels need all the help they can get. If anybody asks questions, point out that since the Blood Angels are codex-compliant the formation could be from the BA 1st Company.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
So is this kind of like Freakshow lists but with Blood Angels? I'm kind of digging the idea of that. Its very unique in the grand scheme of things.

Ha, I don't know if there's a "list" exactly... just looking what tools are available. Credit has to go to th3maninblak. But LD warfare is a really astute way to play BA. They aren't swimming in firepower, so it's smart to look for other methods to create advantage.

In fact, BA just got access to a Barrage 4 Mortar, for 60pts, that forces Pinning tests at -1LD. That's crazy! Added to the LD manipulation list above and here's the link for more info. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660091.page

I'm still looking at the potential to stack bonuses from the various BA IC Auras, it's probably a dead-end but it might be fun to see how far it can be taken.

Corbulo serves the purpose of granting the reroll (which has saved my butt on several occasions) and passing out his +1ws and init bubble. He rides with the non vet sgt tac squad and zips around to support the death co. Since their numbers are so small, they need as many attacks as possible to hit home. Plus he's cheap. I'm not really trying to go with a full leadership setup here, mainly capitalizing on the fact that scat bikes are weak to the 1st CTF formation, and sternguard are awesome in general.

I don't think that replacing corbulo with a libby is a great idea, as d6+2 warp charges at 1850 isn't very reliable. Swapping the bikes out for a full compliment of combis on the sternguard is something I had not considered, but it does take another cheap threat off of the table t1 before the pods come in.

Edit: there was another list i was toying around with though, that involved mephiston and a lvl2 libby in a pod with a command squad, both rolling sanguinary alongside the task force. Could be used as the basis of a freakshow list.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

Honestly, despite what Martel732 will say, it's often an even matchup between your average Dark Eldar or Space Wolf Army and your average Blood Angel army. Where things get problematic is when you get to the highly competitive level. Blood Angels will struggle against ThunderCav/Wolfstar and things like Jimsolo's Freakshow lists (look those up; as it turns out, Harlequins are incredibly good!). But I think that mono-Blood Angels could work at that level with something like MSU Death Company with Grav Biker and character support. I'm not familiar with Blood Angels, so what would that kind of list look like? From what Martel732 has posted before, he should have the units to make a list like that.

It was the mono build for me when the codex was released

BSF

Librarian w/ JP
5x DC
5x DC
5x DC
5x DC
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines

That's 1449pts before adding in DC upgrades. At 1850 I'd probably add in a Knight. It's ok, especially in Maelstrom missions in non bleeding edge games.
However it's individual components aren't that great. BA buffs require you to get the charge, most other armies buffs are always on. DC are jump assault units which are behind bikes and cavalry in the pecking order. Scouts are a tax. Bikes are better done out of the SM codex. Preds are marine mech, which are poor shooting platforms.

For the deldar.

Droppod 1. Five man sternguard squad with plasma guns & combi plas. Plas is usually the last thing id recommend but against Deldar it works better against their lower AV & AS. Throw in Mephiston & Corbulo . Thats a lot of instant death for MCs & the MC wannabes. Also alot of buffing.

Droppod 2. Five man sternguard with previous loadout. Add Librarius conclave. Some people dont like formations or allies, but we're THEE most psychic chapter in the Adeptus Astartes. Its a bizarre omission/insult that they didnt give us a Librarius Conclave. Plus all it takes is a model with a power weapon & a blue shoulder pad to make a librarian. Throw in a scroll case bit from the sprue for added effect. With an extra lvl 2 in the Conclave and its 7+d6 power dice with 4 force weapons. Plus enough buffs to rock out with your sock out.

Just thinking out loud - maybe Mephiston plus 10 assault scouts

Meph should be able to kill his challenger +1 extra TWC with his str 10, the scouts might be able to down one with weight of attacks and should be able to soak up 2 turns of wounds

Maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use that as the bait and then counter assault with the DC

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Just thinking out loud - maybe Mephiston plus 10 assault scouts

Meph should be able to kill his challenger +1 extra TWC with his str 10, the scouts might be able to down one with weight of attacks and should be able to soak up 2 turns of wounds

Maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use that as the bait and then counter assault with the DC

That sounds like a good idea, especially if they're all in a Drop Pod.

I think there's a lot of good ideas in here, and some that may very well be viable against specific opponents. But once we take away the knowledge of opponent, BA completely fall apart, imo. Which is what I'm dealing with.

So things that could go into a BA+allies freakshow list...

-Mephiston
-BA librarians rolling Sanguinary
-Crown Angelic
-Dante
-Sanguinary Guard
-Veritas Vitae (hoping for the 3 pinning test warlord trait)
-Quad mortars
-1st Company Task Force
-Librarius Conclave (for telepathy)

Now of the BA specific ones, only Mephy, librarians, the Veritas Vitae and MAYBE the crown are worthwhile. But that does give us enough to contribute to the strategy in a meaningful way, and/or form the core of the army.

Edit: Martel, the MSU list I posted was supposed to be a TAC list that shores up our weaknesses against scat bikes and the like. The other matchups aren't bad at all.

I'm liking this concept, personally. I love the thought of leadership manipulation, and I will mention that Crown Angelic does work very well and is well worth being placed on an HQ choice, especially considering it's the same cost as tossing a meltagun on a Marine.

I'm going to be stripping and re-painting my Mephiston soon, as well as building a low end Librarian with a staff that I can field at low points without the Relic Staff, or at higher points with Gallian's Staff.

Also, Veritas Vitae is great and would lend itself nicely to a Warlord Librarian as well.

I may incorporate the 1st Company Task Force into my army, but don't know if I want to field that many Veterans normally. Still a nice option for sure.

Where is that 1st Company Task Force from? The newest Space Marine codex?

Will have to see what I can come up with here on this. I'm liking what I see though.

More to come later. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm finding this ld manipulation idea interesting too. In a three source format I think the skeleton is:

Blood Angel CAD with:
Mephy
Level 2 libby with staff and veritas vitae
2-3 small death company squads
2 troops, either cc scouts or maybe tacs?

1st co task force with:
3x5 sternguard in pods with a couple combi meltas sprinkled in

Librarius conclave of 3 level 2 librarians on bikes

The conclave librarians have a lot of options for who they deploy with, and I think the list has some points left over. Ideally we'd be able to pod down with the sternguard to create bubbles of minus LD.
I think white scars tactics would fit best here, allowing us some hit and run action.

Looking into allies and methods to force various LD checks:

- Fear test (special rule or triggered effect)
- Tank shock (Morale test)
- Pinning test (Wrecked/Exploded, Pinning Fire)
- Shooting casualties (Morale test)
- Defeat in assault (Morale test)

Here are some other options using the various Imperium allies. The Culexus is noteworthy, as it denies WC generation which will stop your Witchfires being denied.

- Animus Malorum (Model removed for failing Fear, Morale, or Pinning)
- 1st Coy TF (-2 LD if within 12" of three units)
- Interromancy (Mind Worm, Seed of Fear, Trephination, Mindwipe)
- Culexus (-3 LD to Psykers, Psyk-Out Grenade, No WC generation)
- Enkomi (Minotaurs - Intimidating Presence trait)
- Sororitas Command Squad (Condemnor Bolters to force Perils)
- Inquisition (Orbital Psi-shock, Psychotroke grenades, Daemonbane - Coteaz)

Also just realized that enemy units have to be within 12" of three units from the 1st company task force to take the penalty...

Inquisitor Jazzhands wrote:
Also just realized that enemy units have to be within 12" of three units from the 1st company task force to take the penalty...

But this counts drop pods. Trust me, after using the heck out of this formation in a dozen or so games, it's really NOT that hard to pull off.

Oh in that case that's actually pretty good.

I want to call this burgeoning list "Are you afraid of the dark?"

So far I've got:
BA CAD:
Libby, level 2, staff and veritas
Mephiston
2x5 death company with a fist each
2x5 CC scouts
3x3 grav bikers with combi on sgt

1st co. task force
2x5 sternguard in pods with 3 combi melta each
1x5 sternguard in pod with 2 combi plasma

Librarius conclave
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

Where is the 1st co. task force from? Is it only Sternguard in pods or are Vanguard Veterans an option for one of the three units?

Also, as an aside, That Task Force can in theory have more of a leadership negative bubble or even multiple bubbles if you field one or even two of the Sternguard squads as ten man, then combat squad them out once they disembark. That's 3 units there, the Pod plus two five man combat squads.

Do that, plus two more five man Sternguard Squads in a pod each, or even better, two ten man squads in pods that each break into combat squads and then a 5 man Jump Pack equipped VV Squad to fill out the formation with Storm Shields and attach a BA Librarian to the VV with a jump pack and deep strike them in, or run them up the flank the Pods are going to land in and start casting fear of the darkness on turn 2 if you're in range. Does that -2 Leadership bubble to enemy units stack if you have two 3 unit sections of the formation with their 12" range overlapping a single target? If not, no biggy, but that could be heinous to hit a unit with -4 LD then shoot them, forcing a morale save.

Certainly gives new options for a tournament list that few peope would be prepared for. Of course fearless units and stubborn units are immune to this trick but that's not a terribly common rule outside of DA. Fearless is a bit more common though.

I'm liking this Gives some cool angles of attack that many would not see or expect.

Thoughts to ponder. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Where is the 1st co. task force from? Is it only Sternguard in pods or are Vanguard Veterans an option for one of the three units?

Also, as an aside, That Task Force can in theory have more of a leadership negative bubble or even multiple bubbles if you field one or even two of the Sternguard squads as ten man, then combat squad them out once they disembark. That's 3 units there, the Pod plus two five man combat squads.

Do that, plus two more five man Sternguard Squads in a pod each, or even better, two ten man squads in pods that each break into combat squads and then a 5 man Jump Pack equipped VV Squad to fill out the formation with Storm Shields and attach a BA Librarian to the VV with a jump pack and deep strike them in, or run them up the flank the Pods are going to land in and start casting fear of the darkness on turn 2 if you're in range. Does that -2 Leadership bubble to enemy units stack if you have two 3 unit sections of the formation with their 12" range overlapping a single target? If not, no biggy, but that could be heinous to hit a unit with -4 LD then shoot them, forcing a morale save.

Certainly gives new options for a tournament list that few peope would be prepared for. Of course fearless units and stubborn units are immune to this trick but that's not a terribly common rule outside of DA. Fearless is a bit more common though.

I'm liking this Gives some cool angles of attack that many would not see or expect.

Thoughts to ponder. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

The 1st Company Task Force can basically be composed of 1-4 of any vanilla marine elite choice, so Vanguard Vets sould be an option. A jump Pack Librarian would go well them. The only problem is that you don't get the assuredness of Drop Pod Assault.

Sadly the bubble does not stack for models within the formation, as the rule is specific to the entire formation. To get the rule to stack, you would need an extra copy of that formation or a formation with the same special rule (DE/Harlequin Freakshows are build around this concept, as Coven formations force -1 Leadership on the enemy).

I can definitely see these sorts or tactics as effective against things like Scatbikers, as they only have Leadership 8. With the penalty in place and the low model count of Scatbiker units, it should not be heard to cause enough casualties for them to run off the board.

Be aware that all Gargantuan Creatures and most deathstars are Fearless and therefore immune to these penalties. Blood Angels also don't have any access to any means of causing wounds based on Leadership, i.e. Psychic Shriek.

My theoretical concept list, no points here, just spitballing.

BA CAD - Baal Strikeforce

-Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Veritas, Gallian's Staff, Jump Pack.
-Mephiston (Or Captain w/ Crown Angelic, Jump Pack & Valor's Edge for lower points games/no Special Characters)

-Tactical Squads in Locator Beacon Drop Pod ( 5 man) - Heavy Flamer, Sergeant w/ Combiflamer & Meltabombs.

-Tactical Squad in Locator Beacon Drop Pod (5 man) Same as above

-Assault Squad (5 man squad) Jump Packs, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Melta Pistol x 2

-Assault Squad (5 man) Same as above

-Death Company (5 man squad) Jump Packs, 1x Fist & Bolter, 4xChainswords & Bolt Pistols

-Death Company (5 man squad) Same as above, only Locator Beacon Pod instead of Jump Packs

-Storm Raven Gunship for Anti Air & possible transport of a unit for mid game charges (Jump Pack Death Company with Mephiston perhaps?)

1st Co. Strike Force Formation:

-Sternguard (10 man squad) 4x Combimelta, Meltabomb Sgt, riding in a Pod (Combat Squads on deploy,12" -2 LD bubble w/ Pod)

-Sternguard, (10 man squad) 4x Combigrav, Meltabomb Sgt, riding in a Pod (Combat Squads on deploy, -2 LD bubble w/ Pod)

-Vanguard Veteran Squad (5 man Squad) 5x Storm Shields & Sgt w/ Power weapon (Or Fist) & Meltabombs.



I like this concept. The Librarian Conclave is nice and all but I prefer One Detachment & one Formation max in my list building.

Lots of options and places to put the characters as well as turn 1 dropping the hammer of Sternguard in two drop pods with a third one landing to help out with fire where it's needed if a tactical squad, or disgorge Death Company to be a distracting unit otherwise.

May try and work on this shortly. I'm digging it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

The 1st Company Task Force can basically be composed of 1-4 of any vanilla marine elite choice, so Vanguard Vets sould be an option. A jump Pack Librarian would go well them. The only problem is that you don't get the assuredness of Drop Pod Assault.

Sadly the bubble does not stack for models within the formation, as the rule is specific to the entire formation. To get the rule to stack, you would need an extra copy of that formation or a formation with the same special rule (DE/Harlequin Freakshows are build around this concept, as Coven formations force -1 Leadership on the enemy).

I can definitely see these sorts or tactics as effective against things like Scatbikers, as they only have Leadership 8. With the penalty in place and the low model count of Scatbiker units, it should not be heard to cause enough casualties for them to run off the board.

Be aware that all Gargantuan Creatures and most deathstars are Fearless and therefore immune to these penalties. Blood Angels also don't have any access to any means of causing wounds based on Leadership, i.e. Psychic Shriek.

Yea, sadly the Psychic shriek trick is not one we can capitalize on without allying in other non BA librarians. Still, hitting up to four units with some form of leadership check at - 2 is pretty devastating and then following that up on subsequent turns with further checks after that (Fear of the Darkness) at - 4 Leadership. Cackle as you watch units tuck tail and run away from you and off the board potentially.

It certainly has merit, especially against the 'top tier' lists most people bemoan facing with Blood Angels such as Eldar, Tau, or Vanilla Marine lists. For added hilarity, add in a Culexus Assassin infiltrating in near some psykers for even more LD shenanigans (God forbid a Seer Council on jetbikes.. - 5 LD with the task force and Cullexis anyone?)

It's different. I like it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Its 3-5 for the 1st co formation not 1-4. FYI Newblood. Although your advice is pretty spot on

Also allying a librarius conclave with 3 jump pack ml2 librarians would provide telepathy and whatever else you need.

Also that relic that gives fear and the negative value to leadership would be great if you put I onto a BA librarian as he casts leadership debuffs.

Although this is slipping more and more into superfriends category.


Edit I am too tired I absoultely knew that themaninblak I'm just posting my stupidity.

It's actually 3 to 5 various veteran units, including terminators.

So let's try this on for size.

1850
Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Mephiston
Warlord
-Librarian
Terminator Armor
Storm Shield
Ml2
Force axe
The Crown Angelic

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation (Imperial Fists)
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Librarius Conclave Formation (White Scars)
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force Axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2

All the biker libbys roll telepathy and join the death co squads. Mephiston and the other libby roll sanguinary. And then the leadership bombing begins.

 th3maninblak wrote:
It's actually 3 to 5 various veteran units, including terminators.

So let's try this on for size.

Spoiler:

1850
Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Mephiston
Warlord
-Librarian
Terminator Armor
Storm Shield
Ml2
Force axe
The Crown Angelic

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation (Imperial Fists)
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Librarius Conclave Formation (White Scars)
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force Axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2

All the biker libbys roll telepathy and join the death co squads. Mephiston and the other libby roll sanguinary. And then the leadership bombing begins.

Looks good to me. generating 8 +d6 warpcharges generally casting on a 3+ should be pretty nasty with all those leadership debuffs.

Maybe go with the dark angels libby conclave instead for interromancy - this should work better with the leadership reduction. Also, formation will let them cast mind worm at double range. Plus Ezekiel will give whatever squad he joins +1 attack.

Actually the list generates d6+11 warp charges. 6 from the conclave, 2 from the BA libby and 3 from Mephiston. That's a good bit of psychic power floating around. Also, I made Mephiston the warlord because at least in my area, everyone seems to be slinging Psychic Screams, Eldritch Storms and Enfeebles left and right. Being able to deny the witch on a 4+ or even 3+ with a minimum of 12 dice in the pool is huge.

Obviously this list has some bad matchups. Battle Companies are actually a good matchup vs BA, but here we don't have quite the anti light armor saturation to truly fight through it. Daemons and Daemonkin, with their high number of fearless units, will also be problematic. But bike armies of any kind basically fold to this, including eldar. And various deathstar armies can be dealt with in a big way if we manage to take them down a notch before they get invisibility off.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Plus Ezekiel will give whatever squad he joins +1 attack.

From what I know, it's only DA models within 6".

Interromancy has some great powers on it though. Mind Worm + Psychic Shriek can potentially stack a lot of wounds on tougher models, and as they are both Primaris Powers, you're never going to be stuck with useless choices. With the 1st Coy TF modifier, that's a -5LD debuff (so a Fearless GMC could be stun-locked with Dominate).

So potentially, a Conclave of three DA librarians instead of White Scars could give us a lot more potential of abusing leadership, but it loses us Hit and Run characters for our Death Company.

Inquisitor Jazzhands wrote:
So potentially, a Conclave of three DA librarians instead of White Scars could give us a lot more potential of abusing leadership, but it loses us Hit and Run characters for our Death Company.

Yes, and I'm not convinced that interromancy is better here than telepathy. This is why I used white scars over DA. Furthermore, 3 highly mobile dudes with access to Psychic Scream gives us something to do with all our leadership penalties vs armies that are immune or resistant to morale abilities. A fearless centurion star or superfriends unit won't be ran off the table by Fear of the Dark, and will laugh off a -2 or -4 fear test, but 3 separate screams against a now ld8 unit can be very potent.

I need 3 bikers to actually build this list (the librarians specifically) but my roommate plays DA, so I can see if he'll let me borrow some of his bikes to proxy for this list on Saturday.

Is it worth it to give them bikes when your going to stuff them in units with majority T4 anyways?

So, leadership tricks from allied units? Hmmm. Doesnt this rely on your opponents deploying close to their table edge? I like outta the box thinking, but this strategy seems to rely on them failing a morale check & running off a table edge. What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge? Because most of my opponents dont tend to fear BAs over much.

Maybe a vindi could scare them back a bit? A vindicator isn't a bad choice anyways.

 Red Marine wrote:
So, leadership tricks from allied units? Hmmm. Doesnt this rely on your opponents deploying close to their table edge? I like outta the box thinking, but this strategy seems to rely on them failing a morale check & running off a table edge. What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge? Because most of my opponents dont tend to fear BAs over much.

Maybe a vindi could scare them back a bit? A vindicator isn't a bad choice anyways.

No one wants to get assaulted by death co. Particularly not when they have hit and run and an extra force axe in the unit.

None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...

 Red Marine wrote:
What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge?

With all the leadership shenanigans in the list you could probably just mind-control your opponent if your roll high enough.


Seriously though, why would you want to deploy closer to Death Company? Your opponent wil probablyl think that they can sit back and shoot at you while you come up the board because you have so many cc units.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...

That or casting Fear of the Dark on a giant unit of necron warriors with several characters attached when they're in the 1CTF leadership bubble and watching them run off the table. That happened in a tournament recently. That conversation was hilarious.

Me: "So what are their defenses like?"
Opponent: " They have a 4+ armor, 5++ invulnerable save, a 4+ reanimation protocol, and they reroll 1s on those."
Me: "So... they're unkillable? But not fearless?"
Op: "Yeah basically."
Me: "Take a leadership test at -4. If you fail you run."
Op: "I fail and fall back... off the table. Are you serious?"
Me: "Ha. Haha. Yeahh."

Fear of the Dark alpha strike was something that was massively underutilised in the 5th ed codex for it's potential vs certain armies.
It was something that people only let you get away with once though

I may have missed it, but has anyone discussed how we deal with these issues below 1850?

You can field the 1st Co. Task Force with a minimal squad/unit of 3x 5 man Sternguard in Drop Pods. Alternatively if you're trying to get 3x Drop Pods turn one (requiring five in the list total) You can do this plus 2x tactical squads in drop pods for your CAD troops requirement and you're set to bring in two Sternguard pods from the formation, plus one with tactical marines and a B.A. Librarian (And/or Mephiston) attached in the third pod. You then land them all in the same general area and get the -2 leadership bubble on a target or two, then cast Fear of the Darkness on whatever unit is in range and watch a unit suffer -4 LD penalty for their morale check.

A 5 man sternguard Squad is 110 points base, plus a couple of combi weapons, and a Drop Pod, comes to 165 Points. Three of these added together is 495 points. In a 1500 point list that's about a third of the army, but you can easily get a Librarian and two tactical squads in pods for less than 400, leaving you around 600 points to plug in Death Company or whatever else you might care to work in. You could also, if desired, purchase a Command Squad/Honor Guard to attach the Librarian to and put those in a drop pod instead of one tactical squad. Then if you're really interested in maxing out the damage output ally in a vanilla Librarian that's attached to the BA honor Guard & BA Librarian for Psychic Shriek on a different unit than the one the BA Librarian hits with the Fear of the Darkness power. You'll just have to pay a 'tax' of a small tactical or scout squad from the Vanilla marine codex. Nothing earth shaking for sure. It's not the full blown leadership manipulation/trick bag one can get at higher point levels but you could probably build a functioning list at 1500 easily. 1250 would be a stretch but possibly doable, though difficult and I doubt there'd be room in there for the allied Librarian + tactical squad from the Space Marine codex.

More thoughts to ponder for later. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

All good points Thirst. I guess what I'm trying to see is how can this sort of tactic be applied to 1250 and lower (1000). The basis for the overall discussion might make this question a pointless one, requiring 1500+ lists in order to work, I was just curious how others are dealing with the same troublemaker armies at lower point brackets.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

I know this was posted a few pages ago, but I want to come back to it. It seems to me that people vastly overestimate DE anti-tank ability.

I mean, let's take that Dreadnought example. S8 AP2 is really awful against AV12, because you're getting no bonus from Lance, and (statistically) by the time you get an Explosion result, you'll have killed it 3 times over in Hull Points - making the AP2 equally worthless. Anyway, it takes 9 Dark Lance shots to kill that Dreadnought. This is either 375pts of Ravagers or else 540pts of Raiders. And, the former represents the DE player's entire complement of Heavy Support slots. If the Dreadnought is obscured (or has a 5++), then you're looking at 12 Shots - which will typically require the aforementioned 375pts of Ravagers plus an additional 180pts of Raiders (555pts). So, something as simple as killing a dreadnought is now requiring the DE player to invest 555pts! And, of course, this assumes that none of the Ravagers were forced to Jink (or even shot down). Moreover, bear in mind that the DE player will also want to be using lances to rack transports open - otherwise all those venoms can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs.

Scourges are a bit better, but take up valuable FA slots and rarely get the chance to shoot twice (24" is not a happy range for such fragile units ). And, if the BA player uses drop pod units with flamers or such, then the scourges probably won't even get to shoot once. Granted, the DE can put them in reserve - but that puts even more strain on his pitiful Dark Lances to do all the heavy-lifting in the early game.

Furthermore, DE have virtually no meltas and very little in the way of grenades - so if a Dreadnought is dropped into their backfield, it is unlikely to be in much more danger than if it was on the other side of the board (cover not withstanding).

Finally, don't forget that - unlike most other races - DE have virtually no melee units that can even scratch a dreadnought in melee, let alone hope to kill one. Even the mighty grotesques are useless against AV12+, and the most their HQs can offer is a single Haywire Grenade.

TLDR whilst I probably wouldn't advise taking Land Raiders, don't dismiss the value of other vehicles - especially dreadnoughts - against DE. Despite what people seem to think, they're starved for anti-tank weapons; and the vast majority of their weapons can't even scratch vehicles (especially in melee). Really, once any scourges and ravagers are dead or crippled, they have virtually nothing that can seriously threaten vehicles.

This is the kind of discussion that needs to happen more often. Problem solving, list building, constructive criticism, well thought out arguments, etc. Definitely a good thread.

I think that at 1500 and below, BA don't really need as much help. We can still reach a critical mass of fast moving, threatening and hard hitting units while other armies have to tone back on their absurdity. I still don't think that we need much help vs DE, orks, SW, most marine lists, most nid armies, AM and crons. Mainly just against death stars and eldar.

Anyone tried flamer baal preds against eldar scat bikes?

Str 6 ap3, ignores cover and av 13 so immune to scatbike fire.

Possibilities?

Just not sure they have been given a chance yet in the current meta.

The Fist Company Task Force that people have been talking about, i don't know if its been said but the fear effect appears to work if the enemy is within 12" of any UNIT. This means transports. With 5 pods carrying 5 man sternguard squads thats 10 freaking units. Its 800 points, but your enemys drowning in terrifying debuffs. By just hitting any unit in their entire deployment zone a little, just a little, they could fail a morale check turn one, & flee. Hell, 5 storm bolters can help with the little pin prick thats necessary. I advocate for dw launchers any alpha strikes too.

 th3maninblak wrote:
This is the kind of discussion that needs to happen more often. Problem solving, list building, constructive criticism, well thought out arguments, etc. Definitely a good thread.

I think that at 1500 and below, BA don't really need as much help. We can still reach a critical mass of fast moving, threatening and hard hitting units while other armies have to tone back on their absurdity. I still don't think that we need much help vs DE, orks, SW, most marine lists, most nid armies, AM and crons. Mainly just against death stars and eldar.

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone tried flamer baal preds against eldar scat bikes?

Str 6 ap3, ignores cover and av 13 so immune to scatbike fire.

Possibilities?

Just not sure they have been given a chance yet in the current meta.

Flamer Baals are better against Black Knights because KNights lack the range of the scatterlaser. The scatbikes will get on your side and then you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
The Fist Company Task Force that people have been talking about, i don't know if its been said but the fear effect appears to work if the enemy is within 12" of any UNIT. This means transports. With 5 pods carrying 5 man sternguard squads thats 10 freaking units. Its 800 points, but your enemys drowning in terrifying debuffs. By just hitting any unit in their entire deployment zone a little, just a little, they could fail a morale check turn one, & flee. Hell, 5 storm bolters can help with the little pin prick thats necessary. I advocate for dw launchers any alpha strikes too.

As Bartali said, this might work once. And then it's done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

I know this was posted a few pages ago, but I want to come back to it. It seems to me that people vastly overestimate DE anti-tank ability.

I mean, let's take that Dreadnought example. S8 AP2 is really awful against AV12, because you're getting no bonus from Lance, and (statistically) by the time you get an Explosion result, you'll have killed it 3 times over in Hull Points - making the AP2 equally worthless. Anyway, it takes 9 Dark Lance shots to kill that Dreadnought. This is either 375pts of Ravagers or else 540pts of Raiders. And, the former represents the DE player's entire complement of Heavy Support slots. If the Dreadnought is obscured (or has a 5++), then you're looking at 12 Shots - which will typically require the aforementioned 375pts of Ravagers plus an additional 180pts of Raiders (555pts). So, something as simple as killing a dreadnought is now requiring the DE player to invest 555pts! And, of course, this assumes that none of the Ravagers were forced to Jink (or even shot down). Moreover, bear in mind that the DE player will also want to be using lances to rack transports open - otherwise all those venoms can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs.

Scourges are a bit better, but take up valuable FA slots and rarely get the chance to shoot twice (24" is not a happy range for such fragile units ). And, if the BA player uses drop pod units with flamers or such, then the scourges probably won't even get to shoot once. Granted, the DE can put them in reserve - but that puts even more strain on his pitiful Dark Lances to do all the heavy-lifting in the early game.

Furthermore, DE have virtually no meltas and very little in the way of grenades - so if a Dreadnought is dropped into their backfield, it is unlikely to be in much more danger than if it was on the other side of the board (cover not withstanding).

Finally, don't forget that - unlike most other races - DE have virtually no melee units that can even scratch a dreadnought in melee, let alone hope to kill one. Even the mighty grotesques are useless against AV12+, and the most their HQs can offer is a single Haywire Grenade.

TLDR whilst I probably wouldn't advise taking Land Raiders, don't dismiss the value of other vehicles - especially dreadnoughts - against DE. Despite what people seem to think, they're starved for anti-tank weapons; and the vast majority of their weapons can't even scratch vehicles (especially in melee). Really, once any scourges and ravagers are dead or crippled, they have virtually nothing that can seriously threaten vehicles.

You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Fair enough, but I was just pointing out that the presence of Dark Lances - especially on transports - really shouldn't discourage you from taking dreads and such.

Martel732 wrote:

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.

A couple of questions:

1) Doesn't I5 on the charge help against SWs in melee?

2) What makes SWs so much better at shooting than BAs?

(Sorry if either of these are silly, but it's been ages since I last played against either of these armies and I'm struggling to remember their defining rules/units.)

Martel im curious as to why you think this would only work once. Im curious to know how you avoid 10, TEN drop pod units that fall accuratley into your deployment zone.

Hold in reserve? Then walk into turn 2, PIECEMEAL. Castle up? Bubble wrap? Fine. I'll COMPLETELY surround you & hose you down with heavy flamers, str5 large blast templates & 2+ poison ammo.

Also, our army is jam packed, overflowing in elite jump pack infantry with INITIATIVE 5. How are you not getting the jump on team jacob? And at ws5 to boot.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Fair enough, but I was just pointing out that the presence of Dark Lances - especially on transports - really shouldn't discourage you from taking dreads and such.

Martel732 wrote:

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.

A couple of questions:

1) Doesn't I5 on the charge help against SWs in melee?

2) What makes SWs so much better at shooting than BAs?

(Sorry if either of these are silly, but it's been ages since I last played against either of these armies and I'm struggling to remember their defining rules/units.)

I take one or two frag dreads depending on the list. Always one or two.

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC .

SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Except Warriors are going to be in Ghost Arks and, if not, are probably just hitting the minimum 10 so they can bring more Auxiliary choices.
Plus trying to say "sweep them!" doesn't work thanks to how RP works now. Warriors will ignore wounds 75% of the time with regular attacks.

As a competitive Necron player, I'm telling you that you'll either not catch the Warriors (Ghost Ark) or that the player doesn't care what happens because they just needed to fulfill the Reclamation requirements.

 Red Marine wrote:
Martel im curious as to why you think this would only work once. Im curious to know how you avoid 10, TEN drop pod units that fall accuratley into your deployment zone.

Hold in reserve? Then walk into turn 2, PIECEMEAL. Castle up? Bubble wrap? Fine. I'll COMPLETELY surround you & hose you down with heavy flamers, str5 large blast templates & 2+ poison ammo.

Also, our army is jam packed, overflowing in elite jump pack infantry with INITIATIVE 5. How are you not getting the jump on team jacob? And at ws5 to boot.

If it's a drop army, there's no reason at all to deploy close to the table edge, unless the list is castling.

A list castling with transports neuters this ploy just as badly as it neuters GK shunt lists. Eldar can castle with WKs and WS, shielding their bikers. Eldar can also successfully reserve their bikes if necessary with reserve manipulation.

Countering a drop list is all in deployment. This scheme will probably do okay against average players, but knowledgeable, meticulous players will neuter it.

As I pointed out above, not all BA lists have I5. Furthermore, it only goes off we assault. If SW assault us, we die. If we assault them w/o I5, we die. If we fight TWC in anyway, we die.

How are you so afraid of TWC? They're point for point offensively less powerful than death company, only slightly more mobile, and their only true advantage is in durability. For 6 points more than the price of one thunderwolf you get 2 death co. For the same cost as 5 thunderwolves with storm shields and 1 fist you get 10 death co with special weapons or 5-7 sanguinary guard with a priest. And what units from wolves outshoot us besides long fangs anyways? Razors? Ours are better. Preds? Nope, ours are still better. Wolfy wolf jets? Ok fair enough, but that's a significant chunk of points to put into reserve.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...

This is what my previous post should've quoted. Darn phone...

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC? They're point for point offensively less powerful than death company, only slightly more mobile, and their only true advantage is in durability. For 6 points more than the price of one thunderwolf you get 2 death co. For the same cost as 5 thunderwolves with storm shields and 1 fist you get 10 death co with special weapons or 5-7 sanguinary guard with a priest. And what units from wolves outshoot us besides long fangs anyways? Razors? Ours are better. Preds? Nope, ours are still better. Wolfy wolf jets? Ok fair enough, but that's a significant chunk of points to put into reserve.

TWC are so much better than DC if they are assaulted. BA advantages are all conditional. Conditions that aren't always true. Plus, the rending is invaluable against things like WKs, against which DC need expensive equipment like powerfists. And the durability advantage is so huge in 7th. Sanguinary guard are basically a no-go in a tac list. Too much AP 2 in the game.

Unfortunately, the advantage that grey hunters have over tacs and long fangs have over our heavy slots adds up quickly and decisively. BA don't have the long range firepower like Eldar, Tau or IG to punish the fragile Long Fangs.

I'm afraid because the SW players in my group are experts and always make sure that the TWC are in the right position vs BA. Because our benefits are conditional.

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

Lol I am well aware of their staline and combat capabilities.

Martel, so you're trying to say that the reason you're afraid of TWC is because your opponent is denying your advantages gained from charging by charging you first? That sounds less like army superiority and more like you are getting outplayed. Both units move 12in a turn, the difference is that they ignore the terrain penalty when charging and we can reroll failed charges if we choose to use our packs in the assault phase. And what exactly are the advantages they incrementally accrue via grey hunters? Dual specials instead of a special+heavy? I suppose so.

And I'm not convinced that longfangs are straight up superior to our fast tanks. Yes, they put out a lot of firepower for a relatively low amount of points. But they also have almost no mobility.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lol I am well aware of their staline and combat capabilities.

Martel, so you're trying to say that the reason you're afraid of TWC is because your opponent is denying your advantages gained from charging by charging you first? That sounds less like army superiority and more like you are getting outplayed. Both units move 12in a turn, the difference is that they ignore the terrain penalty when charging and we can reroll failed charges if we choose to use our packs in the assault phase. And what exactly are the advantages they incrementally accrue via grey hunters? Dual specials instead of a special+heavy? I suppose so.

And I'm not convinced that longfangs are straight up superior to our fast tanks. Yes, they put out a lot of firepower for a relatively low amount of points. But they also have almost no mobility.

Sigh. BA don't move 12" if you want to reroll assaults. And ignoring terrain penalty is HUGE because they don't have to roll for random movement and they don't get -2 to assault range. All that has to be true is that there is a GH squad between the DC and the TWC and the TWC will always get the charge off because the DC will have to assault the GH first. Another huge difference is the assault proficiency of GH over tacticals or scouts. It all works together to put BA at a huge disadvantage against SW.

48" weapons don't require mobility, it's just a nice perk. And dual specials are much nicer than special/heavy.

Every possible TAC config for BA that I can think of is at a massive disadvantage against most SW lists.

Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

Pretty simple stuff; GH in pods/rhinos, TWC, long fangs, and maybe a dread with a fancy shield. All their stuff is just better.

The scouts won't beat them on the charge after the GH light them up for a turn or two.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

I'm just curious if you actually did the math for this or just saying it happens.

10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

So the Grey Hunters will spend their time shooting at scouts instead of things that matter? Sweet! Is it my birthday and no one told me?

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

Did we include Special Weapons and if both squads have 2 CCW's, and Overwatch?

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

So the Grey Hunters will spend their time shooting at scouts instead of things that matter? Sweet! Is it my birthday and no one told me?

What exactly matters in a BA list, again? Maybe you thought we had actual threats else where in the army.

If we factor in special weapons on the grey hunters, the points discrepancy becomes even worse. A fully loaded grey hunter squad with close combat weapons added is as much as 15 scouts, at which point the scouts still come out on top.

@Martel: Death co, fast tanks, Sanguinary Guard, and fragnoughts? Also how many characters and units of thunder wolves do your opponents usually run? I'm having a hard time building a list I'm actually scared of.

 th3maninblak wrote:
If we factor in special weapons on the grey hunters, the points discrepancy becomes even worse. A fully loaded grey hunter squad with close combat weapons added is as much as 15 scouts, at which point the scouts still come out on top.

@Martel: Death co, fast tanks, Sanguinary Guard, and fragnoughts? Also how many characters and units of thunder wolves do your opponents usually run? I'm having a hard time building a list I'm actually scared of.

Maybe you just don't play against the right opponents.

There's usually 1-4 characters and 1-2 units of TWC. Death company have no ranged ability, and a spoiling assault kills them. Our fast tanks have laughable firepower for the reality of 7th ed. Sanguinary guard are still highly, highly situational units that a few plasma shots will cripple. Fragnoughts are not particularly efficient against any SW unit except Long Fangs, who will be wrapped to prevent a drop.

It's much harder to build a BA list that the SW are scared of. Because there's no reason for them to be. A fully loaded grey hunter squad will massacre 15 cc scouts on the table top. The fact that you don't understand makes me really doubt your analysis of the situation.

Long fangs? You cant get rid of 6 meq huddlig in the backfield? What are they bubble wrapped in? SM armys are the worst at bubble wrap because our troops are way too expensive to afford that tactic.

If I told you that the best way to get rid of twc or its supporting units was wrapped dev squads, you'd just say, "Nuh uh, 'cause greyhunters would just drop down & kill them.". Well guess what? We can do the same with sternguard. But better. So lets get past this "longfangs are scary" nonsense.

They're not scary in the scheme of things, but they're better than what we have.

They only have to wrap for the first turn until the fragnoughts are committed. If they even care, even.

Long Fangs are really the least of my worries in the SW, they are just really annoying because they kill Rhinos quickly.

Martel, could you perhaps post a specific SW list (so far as you can remember)?

I know that lists change, but I think it would help people understand your plight better (and help more) if they had something more solid to analyse.

'Few of these, few of those, few of the other etc..' doesn't really lend itself to useful tactical advice.

Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

I'm not really bothered by TWC when playing GK. Mobility and quality of shots/cc attacks deals with them quite well.

However BA do really struggle with them. BA shooting is poor, jump < cavalry, BA bonuses are conditional, and BA don't get to do the kind of shenanigans that TWC units can do.
For example a lot of TWC lists don't feature the actual TWC unit now - Iron/Wolf Priests, Battle Leaders etc on Thunderwolves, some Cyberwolf type things and mixed psykers on bikes

 th3maninblak wrote:
Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

Really? Astorath? Okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Martel, could you perhaps post a specific SW list (so far as you can remember)?

I know that lists change, but I think it would help people understand your plight better (and help more) if they had something more solid to analyse.

'Few of these, few of those, few of the other etc..' doesn't really lend itself to useful tactical advice.

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

Martel732 wrote:

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

I wasn't aware that tactical advice was 'tailoring'.

Although, I'll admit that 7th certainly doesn't lend itself to much in the way of tactics beyond 'bring better stuff''.

With regard to Necrons, Eldar and Skyhammer... have you considered Warmachine?

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

I wasn't aware that tactical advice was 'tailoring'.

Although, I'll admit that 7th certainly doesn't lend itself to much in the way of tactics beyond 'bring better stuff''.

With regard to Necrons, Eldar and Skyhammer... have you considered Warmachine?

No, because I'm not shelling out money for another model system. If 40K goes AoS, I'm done with model games.

Tactical advice isn't tailoring, but people know what the SW have. They don't need specific lists to plan for the SW, because I don't know what I'm going to see, either.

Bartali wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

I'm not really bothered by TWC when playing GK. Mobility and quality of shots/cc attacks deals with them quite well.

However BA do really struggle with them. BA shooting is poor, jump < cavalry, BA bonuses are conditional, and BA don't get to do the kind of shenanigans that TWC units can do.
For example a lot of TWC lists don't feature the actual TWC unit now - Iron/Wolf Priests, Battle Leaders etc on Thunderwolves, some Cyberwolf type things and mixed psykers on bikes

GK's one of the only armies NOT to be afraid of TWC. Force Weapons and junk, ya know?

If we're talking about legit superfriends wolf star, with multiple Iron Priests, Wolf Guard Battle leaders and a ton of fenrisian/cyber wolves, that's a different story. But if we're just talking about a regular unit of thunderwolves with a couple HQs attached, then those are very beatable. Just torrent them with as much str5 and 6 as you can, regardless of whether it's shooting or close combat. They'll drop soon enough. And it just so happens that we can bring a ton of str5 melee to the table.

Its not always st5 melee.

Does S5/S6 help much when there's a 2+ save character tanking wounds?

I mean, assuming BS4, that's 13.5 S6 shots or 18 S5 shots to inflict a single wound. In combat, with WS4, this becomes 24 S5 attacks per wound inflicted.

Considering that TWC characters are going to have at least 3 wounds, it seems like you need way more shots/attacks than is feasible.

What am I missing?

 vipoid wrote:
Does S5/S6 help much when there's a 2+ save character tanking wounds?

I mean, assuming BS4, that's 13.5 S6 shots or 18 S5 shots to inflict a single wound. In combat, with WS4, this becomes 24 S5 attacks per wound inflicted.

Considering that TWC characters are going to have at least 3 wounds, it seems like you need way more shots/attacks than is feasible.

What am I missing?

An AP2 weapon?

Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

It all comes down to costing really... in the 'what if' world of unlimited resources, it's easy to play move, counter-move

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

It all comes down to costing really... in the 'what if' world of unlimited resources, it's easy to play move, counter-move

It isn't a what-if scenario. They're GOING to exist in the squad.

Managed to pull out a super close win in a killpoints game today vs nurgle daemons. I was using the MSU list I posted a couple pages back with the 1st company task force, death company and Corbulo. This was the approximate list I faced.

2 Great Unclean Ones, lvl3, various rewards
2 flying nurgle princes, lvl3 with rewards
2x3 nurglings
2x2 beasts of nurgle
6 plague drones

Had this been an objective game or maelstrom, I would have felt really secure in my victory. But killpoints vs this kind of list was pretty horrific, particularly since 3 of his 4 psykers managed to roll iron arm. The 1st company task force and fragnought held him up and wore him down for a few turns before I was able to have the death co move in and finish off a weakened daemon prince and a GUO. By the end of the game he had 1 nurgling, a wounded prince and a GUO left, but I give up so many killpoints in that list that it almost didn't matter.

Still, the list performed admirably even in a bad matchup with a worse mission. I did find myself missing Mephiston in a big way, though. The psychic hood would have been awesome against the life leeches and Enfeebles flying around, and having some dude swinging a str10 force weapon on your side is a pretty huge deal. I'll be working on a different list that includes mephy and another libby later on tomorrow.

Have you written any battle reports?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Have you written any battle reports?

Not since I played 4th ed chaos, lol.

Been working on a revised MSU list. Couldn't really find a place for Mephiston (for some reason I can't find a list I like him in at 1850) but I managed to fit in a pair of librarians.

1850
Baal Strike Force Detachment

HQ
-Librarian
Ml2
Gallien's Staff
Jump Pack
-Librarian
Ml2
Veritas Vitae
Jump Pack
Force Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2 grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi plasmas
Drop pod

I may be on to something with this style of list. I think it has potential to be truly competitive.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

Really? Astorath? Okay.

The problem with Astorath is that he doesn't solve any of the problems that BA assault units have, just make's them better on they turn they charge (again)

The Space Wolf vs BA matchup really depends on mission. They have a slight edge overall, but we do have more mobility. If they are running TWC i'd say their edge is somewhat less. Iron priests are really and issue as they are really undercosted and can los ap2 to stormshields or cheap ablaitive wounds. But both books are underpowered in general.

MSU should have a decent shot at beating TWC spam, if you play the mission and remember to deny multi assaults. If your doing something tailored that is bad vs other matchups your really not getting anywhere (Astorath).

This is of course just my opinion vs the lists i face. Local metas are usually different, so it's often really hard to really say something is right or wrong.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Have you written any battle reports?

Not since I played 4th ed chaos, lol.

Been working on a revised MSU list. Couldn't really find a place for Mephiston (for some reason I can't find a list I like him in at 1850) but I managed to fit in a pair of librarians.

Spoiler:

1850
Baal Strike Force Detachment

HQ
-Librarian
Ml2
Gallien's Staff
Jump Pack
-Librarian
Ml2
Veritas Vitae
Jump Pack
Force Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2 grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi plasmas
Drop pod

I may be on to something with this style of list. I think it has potential to be truly competitive

I think you should consider doing a battle report. Take on Space Wolves with Martel's list. See what happens.

From a theme stand point. I don't know about the list. I'm not too crazy about the Imperial Fists, can't stand Dorn. The Death Company are the only thing really uniquely Blood Angel.

Here is a challenge for you. How would you build this list using the SM codex without BAs? White Scar Vanguard Veterans and Imperial Fist Sternguard?

That's the thing, you really can't build this list using JUST the marine book. Nothing in that codex combines speed, close combat power and relative durability quite like Death Company do. Maybe biker command squads, but those are significantly more expensive and less spammable.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could use Raven Guard chapter tactics with a combination of Vanguard Vets and assault marines, but then it becomes an odd choice. Do you want to be able to use your jump pack in both phases, have shred on your hammer of wrath and cover save bonuses on the first turn? Or do you want furious charge, +1 initiative on he assault, and better close combat units?

And I'll call a couple friends of mine up that play wolves and try to out together a battle report. I will admit that most of my experience lately has been against space marines, eldar, orks, daemons and daemonkin though.

Edit: I love theme in list building as much as the next guy, but I built this list to be as strong as possible. It actually kind of hurts the fluff player in me to look at it. But the death co arent the only thing uniquely BA in the list. The librarians both rolling sanguinary gives us excellent synergy with the task force, and BA libbys are surprisingly fighty. That, and fast razorbacks are awesome.

I faced a Space Wolf player a few days ago in a small tourny. We both used allies, so it's not a perfect example.

3 TWC with SS 2 ironpriest on mounts with hammers and a WGL with fist/shield. 3 cents and tiggy in a pod, the rest of the list was some long fangs, the SW flyer and troop tax. (1650)
I had cents in a bunker and a BA bikestar (540ish points) chappie, priest (fist), captain(fist,lc) + 7 regular bikes + a white scar chapter master. 2 AC LC preds and scouts/3man bike squads as troop tax. Most of the army can move 24" every turn.

While the BA melee star has less punch, it can move 24" each turn and has some decent dakka. 21 point bikes with 3+ or 2+ jink and fnp are great ablaitive wounds.

While bikers are not known for being good in close combat, i have noticed that WS5 BA bikes with furious charge and a chaplain actually do some decent dmg in close combat. So while the Space Wolf player has a stronger close combat deathstar i can decide the pace of the game and force him to eat the charge. DC do more dmg on the charge per point, but they just die so fast.

My list used allies, so it's a bad example if your attempting mono BA, but i don't really think DC are the answer in mono lists if you want anything competitive. Imo you need allies to build an assaulty lists and utilize the unique ability of the priest and furious charge. Without allies i'd say we are better off building an inferior battle-company style list and playing to the mission. It's gonna be uphill regardless either way though.

 th3maninblak wrote:
That's the thing, you really can't build this list using JUST the marine book. Nothing in that codex combines speed, close combat power and relative durability quite like Death Company do. Maybe biker command squads, but those are significantly more expensive and less spammable.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could use Raven Guard chapter tactics with a combination of Vanguard Vets and assault marines, but then it becomes an odd choice. Do you want to be able to use your jump pack in both phases, have shred on your hammer of wrath and cover save bonuses on the first turn? Or do you want furious charge, +1 initiative on he assault, and better close combat units?

I imagine though that it isn't just about those units - it's also about your options when it comes to supporting them.

Death Co are definitely the answer in mono BA lists. While you can't make a true death star out of them (not durable enough) they one of the most offensively powerful units for their points cost in the game, at least on the charge. That's why they are perfect for an MSU style of play, as small units are still incredibly effective.

Hopefully I'll get to try out this list on Tuesday.

Any thoughts on Biomancy with multiple BA Librarians?

Smite, Life Leech -- more AP2 shooting never hurts, and it can force Jink with pseudo-split fire
Iron Arm -- can strike at S10 AP2 with Mauls and FC. Combos with Fleet, extra Init and Attacks
Enfeeble -- easier to hit ID breakpoints against T4 and T5 models
Endurance -- EW for tanking ICs and better durability for squads who might need it
Warp Speed -- Fleet and help to chew through T5/3++/FNP with ID attacks
Haemorrage -- Situationally useful, or swap and roll elsewhere

Further to that, what about the Command traits? The MTC bubble will prevent losing -2" distance on charges, +1" charge distance helps (a little), and the LD warfare trait / reroll 1's to hit is decent. And they are all Ally friendly, which is cool.

Not sure how it all comes together exactly, but I like the idea of Fleet S10 Terminators one-shotting WKs. So I'm going to keep thinking about it...

Hello all, thanks for the great thread. I have been getting my butt handed to me by Eldar and this has given me some ideas I can at least try out.

Sorry to change the subject, but I do have a question about Sternguard loadouts that I'd love to hear your thoughts on. If I am trying to use Drop Podded Sternguard to kill a Wraithlord, would I ever take Combi-Grav guns or even just straight Gravguns over the basic Hellfire (Poisoned 2+) rounds? Isn't wounding on a 2+ better (and cheaper), or am I missing something about the other benefits of Grav weapons?

Wraithlords are easily killed by poison rounds, but WraithKnights are now immune to poison since they are GMC now.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Hello all, thanks for the great thread. I have been getting my butt handed to me by Eldar and this has given me some ideas I can at least try out.

Sorry to change the subject, but I do have a question about Sternguard loadouts that I'd love to hear your thoughts on. If I am trying to use Drop Podded Sternguard to kill a Wraithlord, would I ever take Combi-Grav guns or even just straight Gravguns over the basic Hellfire (Poisoned 2+) rounds? Isn't wounding on a 2+ better (and cheaper), or am I missing something about the other benefits of Grav weapons?

If it's just a Wraithlord, a few combi-meltas or poisoned rounds will kill it. Wraithknights are a whole different level of threat. You need those combi-gravs, as melta isn't powerful enough against six wounds and potentially a 5++ save with Feel No Pain, and poison doesn't cut it against GCs. Sadly, Wraithknights are not easily countered by the sort of Leadership shenanigans the thread has discussed so far, being both LD 10 and Fearless.

Force weapons are actually fairly good vs wraithknights, particularly when combined with Quickening and furious charge. Our librarians are the punchiest in the game, with 4+d3 ws5 high initiative instant death attacks on the charge (assuming you can get 2 wc1 powers off) all for a really low price. Even with a bog standard force sword, you're denying feel no pain and averaging d3 or even 2d3 wounds on the charge vs a wraithknight.

Mephiston, if you can get him into combat, will also cut a WK in half in a single turn. Or an imperial knight. Or a stormsurge.

Really Mephiston answers a lot of our problems if he can get his vampire-jesus hands on them.

Your strategy isn't sound, because you have to actually get into combat with the Wraithknight, roll the right powers on the table, and assume that Scatterbikes and WWP Wraithguard won't get you first.

I dunno if you're actually facing a good Eldar army, because they're ridiculously brutal at the moment.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Force weapons are actually fairly good vs wraithknights, particularly when combined with Quickening and furious charge. Our librarians are the punchiest in the game, with 4+d3 ws5 high initiative instant death attacks on the charge (assuming you can get 2 wc1 powers off) all for a really low price. Even with a bog standard force sword, you're denying feel no pain and averaging d3 or even 2d3 wounds on the charge vs a wraithknight.

Mephiston, if you can get him into combat, will also cut a WK in half in a single turn. Or an imperial knight. Or a stormsurge.

Really Mephiston answers a lot of our problems if he can get his vampire-jesus hands on them.

Yeah its just too bad he doesn't have the mobility to actually catch units in cc. A jump pack or bike would be very useful on him

I don't think you can count on getting any psychic powers off against Eldar. Its fairly easy for them to shut us down in the physic phase. And most of my opponents save their dice to stop the Quickening.

I think Pod sternguard are the best way to handle backfield threats early in the game. The main issue with them is they take an elite slot from DC.

CC characters need to be supported, if not of course they will fail.

Getting into combat with a fast unit -- you either need some chaff to lock it in place, MTC/Fleet to charge it successfully, recieve a charge in cover to drop enemy Initiative, or boost your CC Psyker to strike first.

Rolling the right powers -- There are several lists that revolve around critical psychic powers (Fortune, Invis). More MLs can help but at the end of the day it's still a dice game!

Scatterbikes have the best volume-of-fire value in the game, but that said they're still 27pt 3+ models. If you can't tank their fire then you need a way to strike first. So, what are the options to mess them up on T1?

Webway D-Guard are still a ~400pt reserves unit and they still shoot at one target. So if you have Reserves disruption and cheap MSU frolicking around the board scoring Maelstrom VPs, when they finally come in T4 to kill a 45pt Rhino, well, so?

In terms of SW and DE, I think CC Force weapons are perhaps worthwhile, they will one-shot multiwound models. Invis is a problem but maybe there's a way to snipe out the supporting Conclave character. Seer Council is definitely a pretty hard counter though.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I don't think you can count on getting any psychic powers off against Eldar. Its fairly easy for them to shut us down in the physic phase. And most of my opponents save their dice to stop the Quickening.

I think Pod sternguard are the best way to handle backfield threats early in the game. The main issue with them is they take an elite slot from DC.

Actually, the main issue is that they become suicide troops in a list that can't afford suicide troops.

" So, what are the options to mess them up on T1? "

There are none, if the Eldar player is good.

Martel732 wrote:
There are none, if the Eldar player is good.

Oh come on. You can get a 56% chance to Seize with Corbulo and Kaarlen.

You don't have a single weapon that can cause damage in your entire codex?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There are none, if the Eldar player is good.

Oh come on. You can get a 56% chance to Seize with Corbulo and Kaarlen.

You don't have a single weapon that can cause damage in your entire codex?

They'll wrap the bikes with WK and WS. The WS and WK absorb the alpha strike, and then all your stuff dies. Remember that Eldar dont' need the shooting from WS anymore, so they are free to jink at will, making them very hard to crack.

Even if you ace the WK, you just spend probably 900 pts to kill 290 ish. The Eldar beta strike will cripple the BA list in one turn.

How many WKs and WS are involved in this kind of bubblewrap? Interesting idea but I'm sure there's a counter (besides Barrage units).

Anything that Ignores Jink and can scrub 3HP would help crack his shield.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How many WKs and WS are involved in this kind of bubblewrap? Interesting idea but I'm sure there's a counter (besides Barrage units).

Anything that Ignores Jink and can scrub 3HP would help crack his shield.

There is no real counter, as he only needs it the first turn. You commit your drop pods with special weapons, kill zero bikes, and then he's off to the races. Depending on the board, this can be accomplished with 2-3 WS and 1-2 WK.

Wait so we're no longer talking about the much dreaded all bike army with wraithknights? Now they're running enough serpents to bubble wrap the bikes? I seem to remember you talking the other way around in another thread, with the bikes bubble wrapping the important stuff like Wraithknights. Or was it that they would just reserve everything that wasn't a wraith construct so you couldn't just ace 3+ bike squads in one go? I dunno, I'm getting rather lost in all these conflicting strategies that eldar have to counter the effective tactics that we have against them.

So in summary, in order to counter our allied in 1CTF and fragnoughts dropping in to ace their bikes, they'll either bubble wrap their bikes with wave serpents no one runs anymore or just hide everything but the WK, thus leaving it totally exposed? Makes sense.

And Mephiston is INCREDIBLY hard to get into combat, I'll admit. Though putting him in a pod with a durable command squad has been very effective in my experience. But jump pack Librarians are not all that hard to get stuck in, and are surprisingly effective vs GMCs.

Edit: and since when do you have to roll for Quickening and force? Any sanguinary libby has those by default. Learn your stuff.

I could've sworn that the Primaris was the Morale test power.

Either way, that's gonna require the Librarian to actually wound the Wraithknight. Trying to kill the Wraithknight like that is an exercise in futility. You're wounding on 6's and, depending on the loadout, have to get through the 5++. I'm not sure what your definition of "surprisingly effective" is, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't fit the broad definition of it.
Plus Stomp and the Wraithknight attacking back at S10 (or SD). That's likely to knock the Librarian and his retinue out of the way, and the Wraithknight made the points back essentially.

What's really needed is Grav. If you're already running the units for it, the Formation giving Sternguard free Combi-Weapons might be the way to go. I haven't done the Mathhammer yet, but 20 Grav Shots seems like enough to kill the Wrauthknight (unless they have the 5++, in which case, with the FNP on top, they'll ignore half the wounds).

So the question becomes what's really cost effective against a unit that's essentially 100 points too cheap, especially when the opponent decides to bring two of them, and if the force can be kept pure Blood Angels. I just don't see anything realistic.

I hate to break it to you Martel732, but no tournament-level Eldar list runs Wave Serpents anymore. Scatbikers put out a lot more firepower for significantly fewer points. Don't get me wrong, Wave Serpents are still the best dedicated transport in the game and are balanced by their cost, but they aren't overpowered enough to justify being run alongside Scatbikers and D-weapons.

For reference, the standard tournament-level Eldar army looks something like this:

2-3 units of Scatbikers
1-2 Wraithknights (in ITC)
Maybe a Jetseer council
Maybe a Hemlock Wraithfighter
Maybe an Aspect Host with three units of Warp Spiders

If you are playing against Eldar at a competitive level, you can't build around what they might bring. You have to build around what you know they will bring, and therefore bring counters to Scatbikers and Wraithknights.

Note that especially sneaky space elf players might take advantage of this and build and anti-meta tournament list that contains exactly none of the above. You have been warned.

Even things meant to counter Scatterbikes and Wraithknights don't fair well, so that's not a realistic argument with the whole "anti-meta" thing. They're literally THAT cost efficient and underpriced.

Wrap with the warp spiders and flicker jump against the alpha strike.

And yes eldar can go with reserve shenanigans or wrapping the bikes. I cant imagine anyone wrapping with bikes so if I said that I was wrong.

Hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s with between 5 and 7 attacks still gives you pretty good odds of slipping a wound through, 2 if your dice are hot. And if the WK is runnings sword and shield over the D cannons, I am actually just not afraid of it at all.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s with between 5 and 7 attacks still gives you pretty good odds of slipping a wound through, 2 if your dice are hot. And if the WK is runnings sword and shield over the D cannons, I am actually just not afraid of it at all.

Why? It's not like BA have any good targets for the Dcannons anyway. The WK is a counter assault unit vs BA. It stomps all of our CC units into the ground on the assault.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s with between 5 and 7 attacks still gives you pretty good odds of slipping a wound through, 2 if your dice are hot. And if the WK is runnings sword and shield over the D cannons, I am actually just not afraid of it at all.

Assuming we can actually wound the Wraithknight (T8 is gonna require you to get the correct stuff to even wound it), with 6 attacks you do. 666 wounds without force. Force bumps that to 1-2 wounds.
And then you die. Those aren't good odds like you think.

I'd also say that one Wraithknights should be using the Sword and Shield while the other uses the D Range stuff. It let's you get close and deal with things that need a melee killing. Anything invisible can be while the other shoots at other targets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s with between 5 and 7 attacks still gives you pretty good odds of slipping a wound through, 2 if your dice are hot. And if the WK is runnings sword and shield over the D cannons, I am actually just not afraid of it at all.

Assuming we can actually wound the Wraithknight (T8 is gonna require you to get the correct stuff to even wound it), with 6 attacks you do. 666 wounds without force. Force bumps that to 1-2 wounds.
And then you die. Those aren't good odds like you think.

I'd also say that one Wraithknights should be using the Sword and Shield while the other uses the D Range stuff. It let's you get close and deal with things that need a melee killing. Anything invisible can be while the other shoots at other targets.

Str5 wounds anything up to t8, so yeah, we can wound it. Force staves (like Gallien's Staff) wound on 5s on the charge but allow armor, so the odds are about the same.

A 105 point character doing an average of 2 wounds to a WK on the charge is pretty impressive if you ask me. And if you can put a few shots into it (like grav, lascannons, combi meltas) to bring it down to around 3 wounds, a 5 man squad of death co with a fist and a libby can finish it off. And before you give me the whole "Oh but you had to dedicate a lot of points to kill it", yeah. I did. It's super undercosted. But I can shoot it for a turn or 2 and then finish it in the assault phase. I'll risk the 33% chance of the unit getting stomped out of existence if I take the knight down with me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assuming we can actually wound the Wraithknight (T8 is gonna require you to get the correct stuff to even wound it)

Both Iron Arm and Enfeeble can tip the scales here.

T7 is going to be relevant to Krak Missiles, Lascannons, Axes, PFs and THs, Life Leech/Smite, and certain high Str ICs like Dante.

Iron Arm is going to push a Lib from anywhere from S8 to S10 on the charge, Warp Speed and Quickening will help sneak more wounds in. You probably want a Grav source to endure Concussive.

It's not easy button but WKs are hardly unkillable, the issue is board control -- as long as Seer Council, Warp Spiders and Scatterbikes are running amok, you can't set up properly for the KO punch.

You don't have any models left to deliver the KO punch. All killed by an endless stream of S6.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s with between 5 and 7 attacks still gives you pretty good odds of slipping a wound through, 2 if your dice are hot. And if the WK is runnings sword and shield over the D cannons, I am actually just not afraid of it at all.

Assuming we can actually wound the Wraithknight (T8 is gonna require you to get the correct stuff to even wound it), with 6 attacks you do. 666 wounds without force. Force bumps that to 1-2 wounds.
And then you die. Those aren't good odds like you think.

I'd also say that one Wraithknights should be using the Sword and Shield while the other uses the D Range stuff. It let's you get close and deal with things that need a melee killing. Anything invisible can be while the other shoots at other targets.

Str5 wounds anything up to t8, so yeah, we can wound it. Force staves (like Gallien's Staff) wound on 5s on the charge but allow armor, so the odds are about the same.

A 105 point character doing an average of 2 wounds to a WK on the charge is pretty impressive if you ask me. And if you can put a few shots into it (like grav, lascannons, combi meltas) to bring it down to around 3 wounds, a 5 man squad of death co with a fist and a libby can finish it off. And before you give me the whole "Oh but you had to dedicate a lot of points to kill it", yeah. I did. It's super undercosted. But I can shoot it for a turn or 2 and then finish it in the assault phase. I'll risk the 33% chance of the unit getting stomped out of existence if I take the knight down with me.

We need to clarify: you aren't dealing an average of two wounds. The average is 1.4, which is considerably less than two, seeing as we have 4.5 more to go. This also relies on getting the charge: literally everything fails if the Wraithknight just keeps jumping or charges first. That's a different conversation though.

So I wouldn't tout Librarians as a solution at all. Grav Centurions are really the only cost effective, and even then they're mostly at their nastiest when you threw 2+ characters in there.

Notice how I didn't say anything about 5 death co and a libby will singlehandedly kill a WK. I said that they could be the final knockout punch after an average round of shooting. And are you forgetting that we move 12+ inches a turn too? 1.4 wounds, with another 1 or 2 from the fist and maybe 1 more from regular close combat attacks means that charging a knight with 2 or 3 wounds left is a safe bet. It also helps that we can run 2 libbys and 4x5 death co in any given list.

And Martel, we have already talked about the solution to Scatbikes. If we go 1st, drop the 1CTF in and combine that with a little of our own shooting (and hopefully 1 or 2 instances of fear of the dark) and makes 2-4 of those squads bolt. If we go 2nd, deploy out of line of sight and then do the same thing.

In your proposed squad of 5 Death Company, 1 Power Fist, and a Librarian:
We will assume the Librarian rolled a two for Quickening, as that's the average. We will also assume he rolled successfully to cast Force. We get the 1.4 Wounds from earlier.
Death Company will have the extra CCW's for additional attacks instead of Bolters. That of course means that those four have 3 base, and five upon the charge. 10 will hit, about 0.56 make it through the save, and then after FNP it is about 0.37.

So after that, before the Wraithknight strikes back, we still dealt less than two wounds. Please don't tell people this is remotely viable, as this is just a way to lose your Librarians fast. This also assumes no 5++, since, in a hypothetical scenario where I play Eldar, one is swinging that sword and the other is gunning and stomping. Obviously I'd run the Sword one at you to get my points back almost immediately.

Did you read what I posted? You forgot to factor in the power fist, which will deal another wound or two. And all of this totals up to around 3 wounds. As I have said before, TWICE, I am NOT expecting this unit to bring the WK down from full wounds, only finish it off if it's on 2-3 wounds. Something you seem to continuously miss.

And stomp isn't anywhere close to an automatic ZOMG EVERYTHING DIES LAWL button. You have to get kinda lucky for that 6 to show up. Not only is this a viable way to finish a wraithknight off, I have done it before. On several occasions. And 4 attacks at ws4 means 2 dead marines, tops. What will probably happen is I finish off the wounded wraithknight and maybe lose 3 death co. Cool trade there, pal.

Anecdotal evidence means literally nothing. I had a Biker sergeant kill a Daemon Prince before, and I haven't touted it to be a decent way to handle Daemon Princes.

Adding the Power Fist, assuming the dude lives, adds a grand total of 0.67 wounds. That adds up to a total of less than 2.5 wounds. I've been generous with my rounding for you, too.

So no, the fist is hardly relevant because Stomp and Wraithknights striking back, you aren't going to successfully finish off a Knight to the point this would be a viable way to do it, and you should in no way be trying to engage one in melee with Blood Angels.

The problem with the Wraithknight is that it is just so durable for its points cost that you are almost always going to have to spend more points than it costs to kill it, even if you take the easy route of spamming Grav Centurions. The best that Blood Angles can do is Sternguard or Command Squads with combi-gravs/grav guns to try and put as many wounds on the Wraithknight as possible while negating its Toughness and armour save.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I don't think you can count on getting any psychic powers off against Eldar. Its fairly easy for them to shut us down in the physic phase. And most of my opponents save their dice to stop the Quickening.

I think Pod sternguard are the best way to handle backfield threats early in the game. The main issue with them is they take an elite slot from DC.

Actually, the main issue is that they become suicide troops in a list that can't afford suicide troops.

" So, what are the options to mess them up on T1? "

There are none, if the Eldar player is good.

@Martel, unfortunately this is what I have been finding. Pretty much everything I have dies...it's just a question of whether I can do any damage against him first. We are playing a narrative campaign where, depending on what the results of the battle are, you carry X plus a certain number (escalating scale) of points worth of models from that battle forward to the next one. So in this final upcoming battle, he's up 500 points on me, and has been hammering me anyway.

So, I guess I am just trying to make as good a use of my suicide troops as I can before they're gone. Last game (one of the Maelstrom of War missions) he scored 5 Tactical victory points in turn one. That was basically it for the game...and then he Skyfire Interceptored my Stormraven on Turn two, blowing it up. Man, it's been brutal out there.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for the discussions and the clarification on the Wraithlord vs. WraithKnight weapons load out options. I'll try not to embarrass Baal out there Saturday.

I don't think you'll have to worry about Wraithlords showing up in games. Be merely prepared for Wraithknights.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anecdotal evidence means literally nothing.

Anecdotal evidence always means something. It just isn't proof in and of itself, which means it merits both scrutiny and perspective.

Aside from trying to table every Eldar unit on the board, what about just playing to objectives? A WK is not Obsec and its damage is limited by MSU. I know you guys are bloodthirsty but seriously why swim against the tide? Given Endurance, Tacs will be incredibly obnoxious to remove with Stomp. Meanwhile they score while the WK does not. This is a solution.

Next, I'm sure you all understand the concept of concentration of force. BA cannot simply point & click to remove WKs -- they will need to disrupt the entire force so they can piecemeal them. 600pts of MSU can split off 70-ish points to block 300pts, then use 530pts against 300pts to fight at an advantage. Throwing 300pts against 300pts without shaping conditions will often result in a loss, this has been established. Fighting as an underdog requires a tactical advantage. Looking for a mathematical sure-shot is the wrong way to approach this, trading point-for-point is not a winning option. BA units are often not strong enough or require tailoring to the point of irrelevance outside that role. Leveraging flexibility is essential.

So what's left are less than conventional 40k tactics, because you do not want to fight on even ground.
-- LD warfare
-- Psychic synergies
-- IC synergies
-- Extreme MSU, board disruption, and playing to objectives
-- Reserves tactics
-- High Adaptability through special rules, unit abilities, WL traits, etc.

Look at the above as a chance to explore wildly different tactics and strategies which may help you win. Certainly not guaranteed. I don't know if anyone here has played XCOM, there is a setting "Impossible Ironman" which is still absolutely unforgiving. There is no guaranteed way to win -- even if you play perfectly, you can get screwed on probability -- but there are plenty of guaranteed ways to lose. You need to be willing to take risks and experiment to learn, not simply play conservative to lose more slowly.

Drill into problems and obstacles, do not just discard ideas. You can get 3x JP Librarians with Combi-Gravs for the cost of a WK, so comparing a single JP lib on the charge is not a fair comparison. Further to that, Endurance on 10x Combi-Gravs will pop a WK, at about 423pts with ML2, and soak up more than 750pts of Scatterbike fire. That's damage and survivability on par with Grav Cents. Yeah its dependent on a psychic power but if you want Grav Spam that's the BA option. You can still Combat Squad, so in some ways that's more flexible if facing MSU.

I don't think desperately crunching numbers to spam Grav will make you a better player -- Relentless Combi-Grav in Pods is pretty basic and Fortune/Invis will shut it down easily -- but it's possible to optimize the shooty side of things too. Lacks style, though, and personally I find that the most important consideration. Don't forget it's only a game.

Exalted, Yoyoyo.

I find that, and it's painfully apparent in this thread, there are two camps regarding Blood Angels on this forum. It's fairly easy to see who falls into which of these camps, based on the posts.

There's camp one, which I am thankful I count myself to be a part of, that feels that Blood Angels aren't in the best spot. We're far from bottom tier, being Space Marines and all, but that we are currently behind the power curve. We've still got some good teeth and legs to run, we just have to be a bit more cagey about how we play, and what we do with our army as far as building and playing, especially against more powerful opposition such as Eldar, Necrons, Vanilla Space Marines/Dark Angels, or other similar codexes. All it takes is trial and error and looking at things from a different perspective/coming up with new ideas. This thread has helped me tremendously for moving my army forward to it's credit, despite the vitriol that has cropped up here and there.

Then there's camp two, which Martel, and Slayerfan are quite loudly members of. This camp is comprised of those who believe all is lost, nothing can save us, we're all going to die in a fire if we play Blood Angels and that nothing we do short of physically punching your opponent to knock them out will result in us winning a game versus even the lowliest of the low current power-level codexes such as Orks or even Dark Eldar. Woe-are-we, we must lament our army for it defies the laws of physics by sucking and blowing at the same time, according to this camp.

It's remarkable really, as there is no middle ground to speak of between these two camps.

As I said, I'm thankful that I've got enough grey matter to flex and think of new ways to play and still have fun with my army, Blood Angels, despite the flaws and power creep that's been on going rather than throw up my hands and shout at the heavens my lament and make sure everyone that even mentions my army on this forum in any way knows exactly how badly my army sucks.

I'd almost call it comical.

Anyway, that's all I've got to add. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Yoyoyo wrote:

So what's left are less than conventional 40k tactics, because you do not want to fight on even ground.
-- LD warfare
-- Psychic synergies
-- IC synergies
-- Extreme MSU, board disruption, and playing to objectives
-- Reserves tactics
-- High Adaptability through special rules, unit abilities, WL traits, etc.

-WK are fearless and you're going to struggle to be in range of any -Ld shenanigans after you get out of your pods against jetbikes or warspiders.
-You don't have enough psychic dice to achieve much of anything against eldar, so good luck with getting more than 1 power off let alone anything that has synergy
-Your IC's are all either too slow to matter or too fragile and the main issue is that some people on here refuse to use allies, so there are very few synergies to exploit
- Eldar have access to 51 point ObSec troops that can move across the board at a moments notice. They can and will out MSU you.
-Reserves tactics when AFAIK, BA don't have any reserve manipulation beyond the ability to buy a coms relay and hope for the best when rolling a warlord trait.
-You have minimal adaptability through anything. the bulk of your forces are T4 guys in power armour. Eldar have more special rules than you can shake a stick at, and try as you might, you'll never be able to pull the sort of crap Spiders can. Your unit abilities are limited to FNP, +1 I and some special short range weapons. WL traits are cancelled out since the BA ones are fairly lacklustre IIRC and the only special character who has one worth building around is Dante, who is still just a normal T4 dude IIRC.

Scatbikes >>> 90% of your codex. WK >>> the other 10%. Same goes for any other army not call Necrons or Space Marines grav cents plus tax units.

Accept the fact that you've got a crappy book that can't compete against Eldar and don't even bother trying to. Focus on what your list can compete against and build for that. Either that or sell your army if you don't want to collect a small allied contingent, since it's quite clear you're not having fun, so why keep bashing your head against the same wall? If you're going to get your gak wrecked for the 84th game in a row against a pair of WK's, scatbikes and a council, are you going to have fun? Are you going to learn anything? If not, why bother playing?

 Drasius wrote:


-WK are fearless and you're going to struggle to be in range of any -Ld shenanigans after you get out of your pods against jetbikes or warspiders.
-You don't have enough psychic dice to achieve much of anything against eldar, so good luck with getting more than 1 power off let alone anything that has synergy
-Your IC's are all either too slow to matter or too fragile and the main issue is that some people on here refuse to use allies, so there are very few synergies to exploit
- Eldar have access to 51 point ObSec troops that can move across the board at a moments notice. They can and will out MSU you.
-Reserves tactics when AFAIK, BA don't have any reserve manipulation beyond the ability to buy a coms relay and hope for the best when rolling a warlord trait.
-You have minimal adaptability through anything. the bulk of your forces are T4 guys in power armour. Eldar have more special rules than you can shake a stick at, and try as you might, you'll never be able to pull the sort of crap Spiders can. Your unit abilities are limited to FNP, +1 I and some special short range weapons. WL traits are cancelled out since the BA ones are fairly lacklustre IIRC and the only special character who has one worth building around is Dante, who is still just a normal T4 dude IIRC.

Scatbikes >>> 90% of your codex. WK >>> the other 10%. Same goes for any other army not call Necrons or Space Marines grav cents plus tax units.

Accept the fact that you've got a crappy book that can't compete against Eldar and don't even bother trying to. Focus on what your list can compete against and build for that. Either that or sell your army if you don't want to collect a small allied contingent, since it's quite clear you're not having fun, so why keep bashing your head against the same wall? If you're going to get your gak wrecked for the 84th game in a row against a pair of WK's, scatbikes and a council, are you going to have fun? Are you going to learn anything? If not, why bother playing?

I get the feeling, based on the tone of your post, that you perhaps accidentally quoted Yoyoyo there.

Yoyoyo is enjoying playing Blood Angels and offering positive, well thought out information about how to use Blood Angels effectively despite the behind-the-curve codex that Blood Angels currently have.

Did you mean to quote martel, or slayerfan? Just curious.

Not calling you out here, was just genuinely confused as to why you quoted someone that's being helpful and offering insight into playing Blood Angels in a positive manner and proceed to tell them to sell their army under the assumption they're not enjoying playing the list.



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It was meant to be a response to Yoyoyo in the first part and Martel in the 2nd part, but on re-reading it, it didn't come out that way. My bad.

*Sigh* I am probably going to run the Shadowstrike Kill Team using White Scars tactics and pain the models inside as Blood Angels. Hit and Run and assault out of Deep Strike plus not crappy Scouts (BS/WS 4 and LSS) is too hard to pass up.

Seriously, does EVERYTHING have to be better at being Blood Angels than Blood Angels?

People need to get there heads out of the BA onry mindset when talking about competitive builds.

BA by themselves aren't going to beat Eldar, but then none of the other mono codex marines are going to either. See all the DA/SW and SM/GK lists for a start.
There's a bazillion codexes that BA can ally with. If you want to play mono BA, that's fine, but understand you're the equivalent of a Deathwing player in 5th ed.

Alternatively, play Horus Heresy

 Drasius wrote:
Are you going to learn anything?

That's kind of the entire point of a tactics thread, or wargaming in the formal sense, isn't it?

I will say that it's difficult to get in a high volume of games in 40k, as well as having each and every model to experiment with. Most successful players with unconventional tactics tends to possess a lot of models and a lot of experience. These aren't tactical issues per se but they do compound the difficulties of playing a weaker army.

Then again if anyone REALLY wanted an easy button netlist, they are probably no longer in this thread

Obviously ba are better with allies. The question to me is why bother with the ba? They dont really bring anything to an allied list.

Martel732 wrote:
Obviously ba are better with allies. The question to me is why bother with the ba? They dont really bring anything to an allied list.

They have Death Company and fragnoughts don't they? They also bring Furious Charge and Initiative + Leadership manipulation.



I will admit Death Company would be way better if they had some access to heavy weapons....

Martel732 wrote:
Obviously ba are better with allies. The question to me is why bother with the ba? They dont really bring anything to an allied list.

That's a question that only you can answer. The mainstays of BA since 5th - jump infantry, (fast) mech and Dreads haven't been good for a few years now, so I imagine you continue to play BA because you like the fluff, the colour scheme, models, a certain unit etc

If I was building a BA with allies list I'd cherry pick the units I want to use and build a list to support them and plug the weaknesses. Even just adding a Knight in can solve issues for some players.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Obviously ba are better with allies. The question to me is why bother with the ba? They dont really bring anything to an allied list.

They have Death Company and fragnoughts don't they? They also bring Furious Charge and Initiative + Leadership manipulation.



I will admit Death Company would be way better if they had some access to heavy weapons....

Loyalist marines certainly don't need DC help. Anything that skyhammer ASM can't punch out gets shot with grav. The fragnought is an interesting niche, as it causes many wounds that ignore cover.

Bartali wrote:
If I was building a BA with allies list I'd cherry pick the units I want to use and build a list to support them and plug the weaknesses. Even just adding a Knight in can solve issues for some players.

Out of curiosity, are there any Knight characters? So Quickening could potentially boost them to I6?