An attack on a bar in the French capital, Paris, has caused several casualties, French media report.
At least one man opened fire with an automatic gun at the Cambodge restaurant in the 11th district.
Liberation newspaper says four people have been killed. It also reports shootings elsewhere. There is no official confirmation.
An explosion is also reported to have targeted a bar near Stade de France, where France were hosting Germany.
A BBC journalist at the scene says he can see 10 people on the road either dead or seriously injured.
He says police have now arrived.
Assuming that this is Islamic terrorism it will be due to the presence of alcohol and 'western decadence' (women in revealing western fashions). Plus they tend to be crowded soft targets.
LethalShade wrote: 18 confirmed fatalities according to BFMTV, plus two explosions (suicide bombers ?) in the Stade de France.
And there MAY be hostages.
Damn. That escalated quickly.
this is seriously bad.
just seen twitter reports of hostages, nothing on BBC etc
Iron_Captain wrote: fething hell. Any possible ideas yet as to whether this is islamist terrorist attack or not?
Explosions, shootings and hostages taken with a high death toll, at the exact same time in several different areas. Yep, it reeks of terrorism to me. But we can't be sure yet.
Iron_Captain wrote: fething hell. Any possible ideas yet as to whether this is islamist terrorist attack or not?
Who the feth else does this stuff these days?
Right wing extremists (like Anders Breivik in Norway or that blonde kid (forgot the name) in the USA) or people who are just really mad at something and decide to go on a killing spree (like in the USA or in Alphen aan den Rijn in the Netherlands)
Sadly, it is not surprisingly.
There hadn't been many deaths in France for a long time, while we are fighting against Islamism throughout the world.
We have become a target "priority".
Very curious it's a british who bring these terribles news btw
Iron_Captain wrote: fething hell. Any possible ideas yet as to whether this is islamist terrorist attack or not?
Who the feth else does this stuff these days?
Right wing extremists (like Anders Breivik in Norway) or people who are just really mad at something and decide to go on a killing spree (like in the USA or in Alphen aan den Rijn in the Netherlands)
We don't have this kind of terrorists here. Closest we got were Corsican/Basques separatists.
godardc wrote: Sadly, it is not surprisingly.
There hadn't been many deaths in France for a long time, while we are fighting against Islamism throughout the world.
We have become a target "priority".
Very curious it's a british who bring these terribles news btw
i just saw if flash up breaking news, was on BBC online.
they seemed to have a reporter who happened to be in the city, near one attack. got the news out very fast.
LethalShade wrote: According to a friend who's nearby, the explosion were grenades (four). Don't know if it's true as there's not an official source yet.
Seems to fit with the situation.
Alot of talk of blasts, blasts, or bombs.
(Hmm where not some explosives stolen earlier in the year? Army base robbery? )
LethalShade wrote: According to a friend who's nearby, the explosion were grenades (four). Don't know if it's true as there's not an official source yet.
Seems to fit with the situation.
Alot of talk of blasts, blasts, or bombs.
(Hmm where not some explosives stolen earlier in the year? )
LethalShade wrote: According to a friend who's nearby, the explosion were grenades (four). Don't know if it's true as there's not an official source yet.
Seems to fit with the situation.
Alot of talk of blasts, blasts, or bombs.
(Hmm where not some explosives stolen earlier in the year? )
Well, you're right. It was in the south IIRC.
Just seemed rather well too close not to be linked. Explosives are hardly easy to get hold of in the west
The french government needs to pull their heads out of their arses and start taking security seriously. How the hell does SIXTY terrorists coordinate these attacks and NOBODY knows before hand?
Definitely seems like terrorist MO. Think the bigger question is who will take credit? ISIL? Are there any groups in North Africa with a grudge against baguettes?
"Je suis encore au bataclan. 1e étage. Blessée grave. Qu'ils donnent au plus vite l'assaut, Il y a des survivant à l'intérieur, ils abattent tout le mond eun par un 1étage vite vite"
"I'm still in the Bataclan. Second floor, badly wounded. They must storm the building now, there are survivors inside. They're killing everyone floor by floor, hurry!"
feth this. Really. I'm kinda upset, to say the least.
Holy crap! This is such a massive scale attack and so many hostage or dead. I'm surprised I only heard this just now. A bad day to be French and an even worse one to be in France currently. You French guys stay safe. When things get settled though this is a serious sign you need to ramp up security though. A terrorist attack of this scale shouldn't happen in your country. Also the fact your leader is nearby is all the more reason for concern.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Holy crap! This is such a massive scale attack and so many hostage or dead. I'm surprised I only heard this just now. A bad day to be French and an even worse one to be in France currently. You French guys stay safe. When things get settled though this is a serious sign you need to ramp up security though. A terrorist attack of this scale shouldn't happen in your country. Also the fact your leader is nearby is all the more reason for concern.
Don't worry about that, our government will jump on the occasion to feth us again with a French Patriot Act. They already did, they'll do it again.
"Je suis encore au bataclan. 1e étage. Blessée grave. Qu'ils donnent au plus vite l'assaut, Il y a des survivant à l'intérieur, ils abattent tout le mond eun par un 1étage vite vite"
"I'm still in the Bataclan. Second floor, badly wounded. They must storm the building now, there are survivors inside. They're killing everyone floor by floor, hurry!"
feth this. Really. I'm kinda upset, to say the least.
Aw man. Too reminiscent of the phone calls from United Airlines Flight 93 for mah feels.
Holy smokes... I'm actually gob smacked! This is looking like one very organised mass attack.
Its rather scary to hear this happening in a country my dad is wanting to emigrate too. Stay safe everyone over the channel I hope you get that arse wipes responsible and the casualties don't go any higher !
jhe90 wrote: Red aleart in France, security is at basicly top. Not sure exact wording but basicly France has gone to Max alert.
Worried about somthing bigger :-(
Might not be the end of this yet.
As long as they don't bring a nuke, I should be fine. I guess. But most dormant extremists might see this as a signal to act tonight and go on a rampage. feth.
This is infuriating... my heart goes out to all Parisians tonight, but blood must be shed for this. I hope the French authorities can bring this to a speedy end, and begin the hunt for the masterminds, and I pray we are right along side them when it comes time to kick some doors down.
I hope they get this bull gak reigned in immediately and can save as many lives as possible. It's horrible that twisted people sink to this level and choose to harm the general public who have no hand in whatever agenda they are supposedly fighting against.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I'm hearing reports that the hostages are being killed. Why the hell aren't the French storming the place?
Police are not dumb, if they simply storm the place they risk all sorts of dangers. They need to know things before acting. With reports of shrapnel bombs, explosives, gunfights in streets, multiple attack locations and so on it would be unwise to assault a building that could be riddled with who knows what.
When there is a danger, there is no point getting both the saviors and the victims killed. Sad but has to be done.
If anyone is interested, here is a live news thing from reddit, updates with anything relevant.
godardc wrote: Yeah, now we know who is gonna win the next elections in December...
Your fellow countrymen are still being murdered in the streets of your capitol, and this is what you're concerned about?
I can't speak for him but I can speak for myself. We're concerned about a FETHLOAD of things tonight, and I can't voice them all out at once, unfortunately.
"Explosions" now could be part of a police raid with flash bangs. Doesn't mean terrorists are still blowing stuff up. Obviously depends on what people are seeing, but if it is just lound sounds, maybe its the good guys.
I saw an ISIS tweet with them claiming responsibility for this. Remains to be seen if so, but another report had one of the attackers shouting that this was for Syria.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I'm hearing reports that the hostages are being killed. Why the hell aren't the French storming the place?
Because real life isn't Call of Duty.
I know you know that.
Nothing wrong with wishing for a speedy end to this. We all want the French police and military to storm in and end these people, as quickly as possible.
If anyone is reading this and is from France, please take care, and I hope your loved ones are safe.
News reports are conflicting right now and might not all be up to date. Hard to say when things are still in the middle of being fought out.
Hope you French dakka forumites stay same tonight. I think you all know to just stay indoors, lock your doors and windows and maybe turn off the lights till this is over.
If anyone is reading this and is from France, please take care, and I hope your loved ones are safe.
News reports are conflicting right now and might not all be up to date. Hard to say when things are still in the middle of being fought out.
Hope you French dakka forumites stay same tonight. I think you all know to just stay indoors, lock your doors and windows and maybe turn off the lights till this is over.
Breotan wrote: Okay, I'm hearing reports that the hostages are being killed. Why the hell aren't the French storming the place?
Because real life isn't Call of Duty.
I know you know that.
Nothing wrong with wishing for a speedy end to this. We all want the French police and military to storm in and end these people, as quickly as possible.
It's demands and thoughts like this that make the job of those with their lives on the line hard though. How many times in warfare have hundreds died due to unreasonable demands from the ignorant or careless?
We all would love to hear about them being saved etc, but remember they are the ones who know what they are doing. Not us or the hostages. They too want the same thing remember.
Swastakowey wrote: How many times in warfare have hundreds died due to unreasonable demands from the ignorant or careless?
How many times did we have people die when we hesitated? Go read up on the Munich Massacre.
Both extremes have people die, which is exactly why people who don't know anything (us) should let those who both have the job and their lives on the line do the decision making and demands. Ultimately, if they hesitate too much, hostages die, if they are rash, both could die.
This isn't the right time to discuss this, but it's situations like these where a mercenary force that did not fall under the same really strict governmental / ethical restrictions would be able to immediately intervene.
However, not the right time. Hoping the police takes the terrorists down as fast as possible.
The Munich Massacre was a disaster because of the three people who planned it, only one was a tactician, the other two were politicians. Then there was the incorrect information and the ill-equipped services, not to mention the plan going on as planned with the false information and even then being messed up.
LethalShade wrote: A "carnage", an "apocalyptic" scene inside of the Bataclan according to BFMTV. A friend told me they found dismembered bodies. Might not be true, tho.
Wouldn't think they had time to start chopping people. Unless that's how they were executing the hostages.
Apparently, some people are getting revenge on the illegal immigrants on Calais, a video on the internet is showing a fire in "la jungle de Calais" (immigrant camp in the North of France) and 2 guys saying they lit the fire...
Beggining of the Civil War ?
Breotan wrote: Okay, I'm hearing reports that the hostages are being killed. Why the hell aren't the French storming the place?
Because real life isn't Call of Duty.
I know you know that.
I think part of it is that we are more used to the lone-wolf active shooter type attacks, and the correct approach for those is to have the first officer on scene enter and engage the target right away.
Which of course is just not the right thing to do in a situation like that where there are likely traps for the responders and/or hostages.
godardc wrote: Apparently, some people are getting revenge on the illegal immigrants on Calais, a video on the internet is showing a fire in "la jungle de Calais" (immigrant camp in the North of France) and 2 guys saying they lit the fire...
godardc wrote: Apparently, some people are getting revenge on the illegal immigrants on Calais, a video on the internet is showing a fire in "la jungle de Calais" (immigrant camp in the North of France) and 2 guys saying they lit the fire...
Beggining of the Civil War ?
ISIS reportedly claimed it. Still not confirmed so don't jump to conclusions.
ISIS would claim they pooped on someone's lawn if they thought it would gain them anything. And to those of you frothing about "another attack from the religion of peace", need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
Wulfson_40K wrote: My blood is boiling. I have no idea how to express in words what I'm feeling.
Chill dude, go outside and take a deep breath. Scream a bit, it'll feel better.
Or don't. The terrorists are still out there. Stay indoors till it's safe. Just dab some cold water on your face. Take a shower. Do something to relax your nerves.
Wulfson_40K wrote: My blood is boiling. I have no idea how to express in words what I'm feeling.
Chill dude, go outside and take a deep breath. Scream a bit, it'll feel better.
Or don't. The terrorists are still out there. Stay indoors till it's safe. Just dab some cold water on your face. Take a shower. Do something to relax your nerves.
Wulfson_40K wrote: My blood is boiling. I have no idea how to express in words what I'm feeling.
Sorry man. I'm far away with no connections, and this infuriates me. I have thoughts both rational and perhaps not so much so about the whole thing, but right now its best for me to just express solidarity. I don't know you, but wish you and your countrymen well at this tragic time.
@Sigvatr: This is crap. You French guys may need to take more action considering what happened.
Huh?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrotherGecko wrote: What is the connection to the refugee camp? Is it unrelated?
A few weeks ago, ISIS claimed to exploit the endless stream of refugees and Europe's open borders policy to get terrorists in those countries. Attacks now. Some people draw a direct correlation.
@Sigvatr: This is crap. You French guys may need to take more action considering what happened.
Huh?
It was at the 100 dead confirmed at that assault. I'm saying this shouldn't have happened today. Step up security and take the fight to the group responsible.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
It was at the 100 dead confirmed at that assault. I'm saying this shouldn't have happened today. Step up security and take the fight to the group responsible.
I'm not French. Not the right place / time to discuss this, but Europe really lacks in terms of security. Huge, easily exploitably security problems that are not adressed.
France is the country of Human Rights etc...
So, even if it's illegal, there are street prayers in Paris, and you can't just look after every migrant, some would call this "racist".
I mean, the French State lost a lawsuit against a NGO about the unsanitary living conditions in which the ILLEGAL migrants live in Calais... How is this even possible^^
So...
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
There are systems, but any system is useless when hordes of immigrants just walk across the border with thousands at a time. Well, except building a huge fence apparently.
It was at the 100 dead confirmed at that assault. I'm saying this shouldn't have happened today. Step up security and take the fight to the group responsible.
I'm not French. Not the right place / time to discuss this, but Europe really lacks in terms of security. Huge, easily exploitably security problems that are not adressed.
Indeed. I find myself quite lucky living in the UK, we still have problems with immigration, but not as much as the rest of Europe. Perks of being an island nation.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
There are systems, but any system is useless when hordes of immigrants just walk across the border with thousands at a time. Well, except building a huge fence apparently.
The systems are an utter joke. A limitless welfare state and open borders isn't a good combination if you want to maintain a healthy state. Higher up people have increased private security spending by more than 4-5 times over the last few months. Not saying it's unreasonable.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
There are systems, but any system is useless when hordes of immigrants just walk across the border with thousands at a time. Well, except building a huge fence apparently.
The systems are an utter joke. A limitless welfare state and open borders isn't a good combination if you want to maintain a healthy state. Higher up people have increased private security spending by more than 4-5 times over the last few months. Not saying it's unreasonable.
Wait for a bit, we'll turn into a police state soon enough.
These past days the refugee in the camp you're talking about have been staging attacks against the police at night, possibly by receiving external help due to how organized they were. Theorically so that during the chaos they find a way to hide in trucks and join the UK, but now with the fear and tension people will draw other conclusions as to who was responsible and why.
That camp is a special kind of place and is not related to Merkel call to refugees. It is a place of tension and we shall be very careful with any info related to it.
It may be as well right wing extremist, or people from inside the camp who caused the fire to cause chaos, or neighbors who live in fear who did something.
Thing is information is currently chaotic and sparse (I would never have known about the fires at Calais if not for that thread), and since we are now in a state of urgency the government now has control of the medias so we will have to rely on foreign news a lot these next days.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
Why else do we have borders? It's for safety... something people feel that they don't have. If we had actual borders there would be way more control of WHO would enter European countries.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Hopefully not. A police state is highly detrimental to most o the economy. The main problem is not being willing to change anything about the status quo and people who do suggest anything even remotely tied to border security immediately being called nazis.
Wulfson_40K wrote: These past days the refugee in that camp have been staging attacks against the police at night, possibly by receiving external help due to how organized they were. Theorically so that during the chaos they find a way to hide in trucks and join the UK, but now people will draw other conclusions as to who was responsible and why.
That camp is a special kind of place and is not related to Merkel call to refugees. It is a place of tension and we shall be very careful with any info related to it.
It may be as well right wing extremist, or people from inside the camp who caused the fire to cause chaos, or neighbors who live in fear who did something.
Thing is information is currently chaotic and sparse (I would never have known about the fires at Calais if not for that thread), and since we are now in a state of urgency the government now has control of the medias so we will have to rely on foreign news a lot these.
Reddit now saying there are reports that reports about fires in Calais camp are false and the images are old.
Why else do we have borders? It's for safety... something people feel that they don't have. If we had actual borders there would be way more control of WHO would enter European countries.
Borders nowadays serve political, not security reasons. Well, at least until the refugee crisis started. EU borders are a joke security-wise and Europe is lucky to not be a more frequent victim. Reactionism and leftism / socialism led to instability and lethargy.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Try telling that to the masses. A lot of people on my social media channels are generalising it to every Muslim. I don't know why, but they seem to be more eager to generalise individuals to Islam than, I don't know, Christianity.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: And ofcourse politicians are still sticking their heads in the sand around here. They should just close the borders in all of the EU for at least now.
There's no need to close borders. Opening borders is essential to a country's well being. The problem is that Europe doesn't know how to deal with immigrants and has no system in place to cope with it. Cue Green Card.
There are systems, but any system is useless when hordes of immigrants just walk across the border with thousands at a time. Well, except building a huge fence apparently.
The systems are an utter joke. A limitless welfare state and open borders isn't a good combination if you want to maintain a healthy state. Higher up people have increased private security spending by more than 4-5 times over the last few months. Not saying it's unreasonable.
Wait for a bit, we'll turn into a police state soon enough.
Hopefully no but definitely increased security for a few years yet. Hopefully not a bad thing to discuss but this is just one more reason to find these terrorists a legitimate threat to not only the USA but Europe as well. At least 2 big attacks in france in recent memory should mean step up your security now and do something about these terrorist threats.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Wulfson_40K wrote: These past days the refugee in that camp have been staging attacks against the police at night, possibly by receiving external help due to how organized they were. Theorically so that during the chaos they find a way to hide in trucks and join the UK, but now people will draw other conclusions as to who was responsible and why.
That camp is a special kind of place and is not related to Merkel call to refugees. It is a place of tension and we shall be very careful with any info related to it.
It may be as well right wing extremist, or people from inside the camp who caused the fire to cause chaos, or neighbors who live in fear who did something.
Thing is information is currently chaotic and sparse (I would never have known about the fires at Calais if not for that thread), and since we are now in a state of urgency the government now has control of the medias so we will have to rely on foreign news a lot these.
Reddit now saying there are reports that reports about fires in Calais camp are false and the images are old.
Wulfson_40K wrote: These past days the refugee in that camp have been staging attacks against the police at night, possibly by receiving external help due to how organized they were. Theorically so that during the chaos they find a way to hide in trucks and join the UK, but now people will draw other conclusions as to who was responsible and why.
That camp is a special kind of place and is not related to Merkel call to refugees. It is a place of tension and we shall be very careful with any info related to it.
It may be as well right wing extremist, or people from inside the camp who caused the fire to cause chaos, or neighbors who live in fear who did something.
Thing is information is currently chaotic and sparse (I would never have known about the fires at Calais if not for that thread), and since we are now in a state of urgency the government now has control of the medias so we will have to rely on foreign news a lot these.
Reddit now saying there are reports that reports about fires in Calais camp are false and the images are old.
Then who is responsible for spreading the images as authentic? Are there no actual news cameras there?
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Wulfson_40K wrote: These past days the refugee in that camp have been staging attacks against the police at night, possibly by receiving external help due to how organized they were. Theorically so that during the chaos they find a way to hide in trucks and join the UK, but now people will draw other conclusions as to who was responsible and why.
That camp is a special kind of place and is not related to Merkel call to refugees. It is a place of tension and we shall be very careful with any info related to it.
It may be as well right wing extremist, or people from inside the camp who caused the fire to cause chaos, or neighbors who live in fear who did something.
Thing is information is currently chaotic and sparse (I would never have known about the fires at Calais if not for that thread), and since we are now in a state of urgency the government now has control of the medias so we will have to rely on foreign news a lot these.
Reddit now saying there are reports that reports about fires in Calais camp are false and the images are old.
Reported hoax by 3 individual sources.
Sometimes gotta wonder if the news generates a lot of hate and such for their own gain (regardless of the actual truth). I'm sure they pick and choose to feed some people's emotions. At the end of the day it's what sells and they don't care who it hurts in the end as long as it's not themselves. Kinda hate the people that do news as much as politicians these days.
Sometimes gotta wonder if the news generates a lot of hate and such for their own gain (regardless of the actual truth). I'm sure they pick and choose to feed some people's emotions. At the end of the day it's what sells and they don't care who it hurts in the end as long as it's not themselves. Kinda hate the people that do news as much as politicians these days.
Difficult to say. Chaos at news stations right now with people calling, sending pictures, videos etc.
Iron_Captain wrote: Reddit now saying there are reports that reports about fires in Calais camp are false and the images are old.
It is for the better then, but alas I have no doubt that camp explosive situation will deteriorate quickly whatever happen now.
For me who lives right next to Marseille the possibility of something horrible happening always linger in the back of the head. A few days ago for example there was a big manga convention, the kind which tend to be very very popular. I had friends going there and I assure you that whether you like it or not you can't stop thinking that with thousand of young people and kids in at the same place there is a risk of something horrible happening. It is frightening to realize now that what was only a fear in the back of the head is taking a real shape.
More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
Yes, and emotional stress leads to nonsense reactions. There is no easy solution to all of this. Paris is a wonderful city, it will recover from it for sure.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Try telling that to the masses. A lot of people on my social media channels are generalising it to every Muslim. I don't know why, but they seem to be more eager to generalise individuals to Islam than, I don't know, Christianity.
For me i accept that it's one group. But my question is: just how large is that group? Both proportionately and in total? Its becoming more and more serious an issue as time goes by. Also, my condolences to those involved and i hope things don't get any worse for you.
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
True but look at the damage that small percentage has done. I'm sure a lot of the European countries don't allow people to have weapons. Just gotta press this and ramp up security. Also considering the terrorists stopped at the train, these attacks today and that shooting of the news room (whatever it was) and you see france is getting targeted a lot. Seriously what have the French done to get targeted so much by terrorists recently. It baffles my mind how many attacks are being thrown at you guys in recent times.
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
True but look at the damage that small percentage has done. I'm sure a lot of the European countries don't allow people to have weapons. Just gotta press this and ramp up security. Also considering the terrorists stopped at the train, these attacks today and that shooting of the news room (whatever it was) and you see france is getting targeted a lot. Seriously what have the French done to get targeted so much by terrorists recently. It baffles my mind how many attacks are being thrown at you guys in recent times.
I'm asking myself the same question, and i can only guess that they're an easy target? Maybe security is lax or something? I don't know. But 'revenge' on them for what's going on in syria would be laughable under other circumstances.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Try telling that to the masses. A lot of people on my social media channels are generalising it to every Muslim. I don't know why, but they seem to be more eager to generalise individuals to Islam than, I don't know, Christianity.
For me i accept that it's one group. But my question is: just how large is that group? Both proportionately and in total? Its becoming more and more serious an issue as time goes by. Also, my condolences to those involved and i hope things don't get any worse for you.
What do you mean by that? People that bandwagon on generalising Muslims or Muslims involved in terrorist attacks?
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
source?
Did a quick google search for that. According to npr
Formosa wrote: More than 100 people in a single location have been killed according to BBC.
Looks like.I'm gonna have to walk my niece to school again, some Muslims blow up something and people shout hate at a 14 year old, measured response as usual.
Ugh, I hate that. It's easy to bandwagon on 'Muslims are evil!' when in reality these terrorists count for less than .01% of the 1.6b Muslims in the world.
True but look at the damage that small percentage has done. I'm sure a lot of the European countries don't allow people to have weapons. Just gotta press this and ramp up security. Also considering the terrorists stopped at the train, these attacks today and that shooting of the news room (whatever it was) and you see france is getting targeted a lot. Seriously what have the French done to get targeted so much by terrorists recently. It baffles my mind how many attacks are being thrown at you guys in recent times.
The terrorist only has to get it right once to have an massive effect. And they keep getting it right, unfortunately. Just look at what 9/11 did to the world.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Try telling that to the masses. A lot of people on my social media channels are generalising it to every Muslim. I don't know why, but they seem to be more eager to generalise individuals to Islam than, I don't know, Christianity.
For me i accept that it's one group. But my question is: just how large is that group? Both proportionately and in total? Its becoming more and more serious an issue as time goes by. Also, my condolences to those involved and i hope things don't get any worse for you.
What do you mean by that? People that bandwagon on generalising Muslims or Muslims involved in terrorist attacks?
"From a journalist friend : "Friends, I was "lucky" to hear from the RG (intelligence services) that the terrorist threat will be even more violent tomorrow.
The twit says that a journalist friend heard from the RG (I don't know to what to compare them, CIA I suppose) that tomorrow the terrorism threat will be more violent.
angelofvengeance wrote: need I remind you how much bloodshed has been carried out for other religious causes? Brainwashed Muslim extremists are attacking these places. Stop typecasting.
Everyone knows it's extremists. This doesn't change the fact that it's just one religion responsible for religious terrorism nowadays.
*sigh* it's not one religion is it though?Plus- It's just a group of people with a heavily skewed vision of how Islam should be. Not the whole thing.
Try telling that to the masses. A lot of people on my social media channels are generalising it to every Muslim. I don't know why, but they seem to be more eager to generalise individuals to Islam than, I don't know, Christianity.
For me i accept that it's one group. But my question is: just how large is that group? Both proportionately and in total? Its becoming more and more serious an issue as time goes by. Also, my condolences to those involved and i hope things don't get any worse for you.
What do you mean by that? People that bandwagon on generalising Muslims or Muslims involved in terrorist attacks?
Muslims involved in terrorist attacks.
I can't answer that. I admit that it is becoming more of a problem, but I would imagine social groups around you influence that. There is a predominately Muslim community near where I live that recently, publicly celebrated Hussain. I felt comfortable enough to walk through the celebrations and pretty much every day when I need to get to the city centre.
In other places, where you've got extremists influencing you, I would imagine it would be much easier to sway you to becoming a 'freedom fighter'.
It's because France has hit them hard in africa ( Mali) and then attacked them again in iraqi (and very recently a litlle in Syria).
But France security is not "bad" or "lax",it is in fact a really good one, avoiding a lot of attacks from years.
But you can't watch after everyone everytime, especially when there are more and more guys to watch after...
godardc wrote: It's because France has hit them hard in africa ( Mali) and then attacked them again in iraqi (and very recently a litlle in Syria).
But France security is not "bad" or "lax",it is in fact a really good one, avoiding a lot of attacks from years.
But you can't watch after everyone everytime, especially when there are more and more guys to watch after...
True but you don't see the usa getting hit this badly anymore. After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sounds like france is no longer safe. If there is a chance maybe you guys should move to another country. Might be an over-reaction though.
godardc wrote: It's because France has hit them hard in africa ( Mali) and then attacked them again in iraqi (and very recently a litlle in Syria).
But France security is not "bad" or "lax",it is in fact a really good one, avoiding a lot of attacks from years.
But you can't watch after everyone everytime, especially when there are more and more guys to watch after...
True but you don't see the usa getting hit this badly anymore. After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
Syria was under French mandate until the middle of the 20th century (didn't go very well ad you might imagine), and the Assad government is essentially a successor to the one the French instilled when they left. France also has a rotten reputation in North Africa owing to the war in Algeria, and has consistently been one of the most active states in Middle Eastern geopolitics. That Islamic extremists would target France isn't that outlandish.
Frozocrone wrote:I can't answer that. I admit that it is becoming more of a problem, but I would imagine social groups around you influence that. There is a predominately Muslim community near where I live that recently, publicly celebrated Hussain. I felt comfortable enough to walk through the celebrations and pretty much every day when I need to get to the city centre.
In other places, where you've got extremists influencing you, I would imagine it would be much easier to sway you to becoming a 'freedom fighter'.
I can't answer it either, but the question needs to be raised and soon. It's also harder given that they're not always nations involved but organisations operating inside otherwise peaceful-ish nations.
whembly wrote:(thanks!!)
Everyone is watching everyone, so I hope the French Officials identifies and tracks down these "lone wolves".
If there are 4 simultaneous attacks at the same time, i'm less inclined to call them 'lone wolves'.
godardc wrote:It's because France has hit them hard in africa ( Mali) and then attacked them again in iraqi (and very recently a litlle in Syria).
But France security is not "bad" or "lax",it is in fact a really good one, avoiding a lot of attacks from years.
But you can't watch after everyone everytime, especially when there are more and more guys to watch after...
flamingkillamajig wrote: After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
France has a large, poorly integrated Muslim community that both allows for local recruitment as well as help hide imported militants. The nature of France's location on the world map also makes the idea of watertight borders impossible. The US has this huge honking pond called the Atlantic to cover them.
Something positive: people in Paris offering refuge to strangers who can't get out of city via twitter.
Well yeah but they're strangers. Just best to be careful who you give shelter to. The world can sometimes take kindness and bite you in the *** for it. For all we know those kind strangers could turn into new hostages. Let's hope not but the possibility is still there. I thought some terrorists were said to have gotten away.
When ever I see 'it's only 1% or 0.01% of a population who support/do this' I feel as though you also have to have to factor in the size of it. Considering that there Is at or close to a 1.6 billion Muslims That 1% is about 16 million or even with the 0.01% that's1.6 million, terrorist scum who call allah their god. Then the numbers become staggering instead of a statistic.
flamingkillamajig wrote: After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
France has a large, poorly integrated Muslim community that both allows for local recruitment as well as help hide imported militants. The nature of France's location on the world map also makes the idea of watertight borders impossible. The US has this huge honking pond called the Atlantic to cover them.
flamingkillamajig wrote: After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
France has a large, poorly integrated Muslim community that both allows for local recruitment as well as help hide imported militants. The nature of France's location on the world map also makes the idea of watertight borders impossible. The US has this huge honking pond called the Atlantic to cover them.
Yeah, being an island is playing world history on easy mode.
I originally (when first posting the figure) did it to 1.6 million so 160 seemed 'ok' still bad but not as bad as it could be. 160,000 is a problem, I hope it's much, much, much less than that.
flamingkillamajig wrote: After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
France has a large, poorly integrated Muslim community that both allows for local recruitment as well as help hide imported militants. The nature of France's location on the world map also makes the idea of watertight borders impossible. The US has this huge honking pond called the Atlantic to cover them.
Yeah, being an island is playing world history on easy mode.
Yup. To my knowledge, the biggest immigrant problem the US has is Mexicans.
My question: does that include the actual frontline fighters who are doing these things, or does that include supporting and associated people as well?
Torga_DW wrote: My question: does that include the actual frontline fighters who are doing these things, or does that include supporting and associated people as well?
To be honest, I'm don't think that figure is even correct. But even the figure of terrorists that commit the attacks is just a small portion of the total number. It's usually the new recruits that commit the attacks, the higher ups draft in new recruits all the time and stay out of sight. I don't think Bin Laden was ever part of an attack despite being a prominent figure in Al-qaeda.
Torga_DW wrote: My question: does that include the actual frontline fighters who are doing these things, or does that include supporting and associated people as well?
To be honest, I'm don't think that figure is even correct. But even the figure of terrorists that commit the attacks is just a small portion of the total number. It's usually the new recruits that commit the attacks, the higher ups draft in new recruits all the time and stay out of sight. I don't think Bin Laden was ever part of an attack despite being a prominent figure in Al-qaeda.
Leaders like being alive and being in charge so they are pretty good about finding somebody else to do the dangerous work and the dying.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Fethers. Ship them over to Paris and force them to help some true victims.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Likely fake accounts. #Mizzou is getting those by the dozen now that /pol/ is on the case.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Dear God I am at a loss for words. At least words that wouldn't get me perma-banned. More human garbage tweets
My heart goes out to the people of Paris. Stay safe and aim true.
flamingkillamajig wrote: After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
France has a large, poorly integrated Muslim community that both allows for local recruitment as well as help hide imported militants. The nature of France's location on the world map also makes the idea of watertight borders impossible. The US has this huge honking pond called the Atlantic to cover them.
Yeah, being an island is playing world history on easy mode.
To an extent yes and to an extent no. Being isolated to an island can be rather tough as it means things have to cost a lot. Sure if you are an awesome naval power being stuck to an island for your home is nice but I can only imagine everything has to be imported.
Dunno. But, honestly, out of all the stupid tweets we might get caught up over, why give attention to those? Stupid attention-seeking students are stupid attention-seeking students. Talk about the call for civil war from #L'Identitaire or #Generation ID, and you might have a subject worth giving attention to.
Otherwise you are just feeding the /pol/-SJW love-hate circlejerk.
Otherwise you are just feeding the /pol/-SJW love-hate circlejerk.
Not a fan of that stuff either but that would be getting off topic and this is actual serious business rather than internet serious business. We should keep things to what's going on in france.
I do think I heard there was a tsunami in japan as well or similar but I will look into that later. Personally I don't care if security is stepped up in france to a ridiculous extent. For a few years it'll need it esp. starting today.
Yep. People like the above exist. How can they be so blind? So brazen? So un-self aware? So incapable of seeing how meaningless their nonsense campus safe space bull gak is in the face of such wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Because... first world problem? I look at these tweets as showing just how truly vapid these spoiled brats really are. I just hope the rest of my country does, too.
Orlanth wrote: There has been a lot of intelligence activity in the UK reported in the press recently. A lot of arrests and some major plots foiled.
The Germans have also reported success foiling plots.
Why have the French been caught flat footed, again?
A man was planning an assault against the Toulon naval base, the authorities caught him on the 29th of October receiving help from a syrian djihadist. Perhaps they thought that was what was in the works?
godardc wrote: It's because France has hit them hard in africa ( Mali) and then attacked them again in iraqi (and very recently a litlle in Syria).
But France security is not "bad" or "lax",it is in fact a really good one, avoiding a lot of attacks from years.
But you can't watch after everyone everytime, especially when there are more and more guys to watch after...
True but you don't see the usa getting hit this badly anymore. After 9/11 our attacks went down considerably whereas French ones seem to have escalated to ridiculous proportions. I always thought if anything the USA was their #1 enemy. Well maybe us and Israel but we're definitely near the top.
No, here in the US it seems we are just content with killing each other.
whembly wrote: Did Hollande really say "we will wage war without ptiy"??
He did, and it's going to be interesting to see what he means by that. A lot of people are speculating about French boots hitting the ground in Syria and Iraq, but that's realistically not going to happen without an Article 5 invocation, because while France has one of Europe's few expeditionary militaries, it doesn't have the logistics to support it. Which means they need our logistical assets to make something like that happen, at the very least.
whembly wrote: Did Hollande really say "we will wage war without ptiy"??
He did, and it's going to be interesting to see what he means by that. A lot of people are speculating about French boots hitting the ground in Syria and Iraq, but that's realistically not going to happen without an Article 5 invocation, because while France has one of Europe's few expeditionary militaries, it doesn't have the logistics to support it. Which means they need our logistical assets to make something like that happen, at the very least.
Can that process happen without an actual country being involved in the attack?
Article 5 was invoked after 9/11, but we also had Afghanistan as an actual country giving support to AQ. So if this was ISIS can it be invoked on them as an organization, or is that something that has be done against a country? Honestly have no idea there.
d-usa wrote: Can that process happen without an actual country being involved in the attack?
Article 5 was invoked after 9/11, but we also had Afghanistan as an actual country giving support to AQ. So if this was ISIS can it be invoked on them as an organization, or is that something that has be done against a country? Honestly have no idea there.
I don't see why it couldn't. It doesn't require a state actor as the target, to the best of my knowledge.
d-usa wrote: Can that process happen without an actual country being involved in the attack?
Article 5 was invoked after 9/11, but we also had Afghanistan as an actual country giving support to AQ. So if this was ISIS can it be invoked on them as an organization, or is that something that has be done against a country? Honestly have no idea there.
I don't see why it couldn't. It doesn't require a state actor as the target, to the best of my knowledge.
I figured you would be more knowledgeable about that than me, thanks for the reply.
Based on my knowledge gained by reading Wikipedia it seems like the main factor is an armed attack against a member state, but it seems pretty vague about who or where that attack came from. So I didn't know if there was more to it than that.
Edit:
I never realized that the actual North Atlantic Treaty is pretty short and dry. I'm sure there are lots of rules and regulations somewhere, but the actual treaty (including Article 5) is really not very complex.
This is shocking. Not the fact that it happened (it's horrible, but not shocking that terror attacks happen) but the scale. Especially after all the recent media coverage about refugees. I hope those does not spin out of control with all this rhetoric.
Orlanth wrote: There has been a lot of intelligence activity in the UK reported in the press recently. A lot of arrests and some major plots foiled.
The Germans have also reported success foiling plots.
Why have the French been caught flat footed, again?
Border control can only be part of he answer, most terrorist threats are home grown. Besides the UK has rap border control.
Firstly France has a high percentage of North African immigrants, where as in the UK much of our Muslim immigrants are from the Indian sub continent (due to colonial stuff). North Africa is currently the area with a lot of conflict.
Secondly France has major issues with ghettoisation of immigrant communities, partly due to political actions and partly due to the very stron image of what is to be French in the mind of many French people, in a way that just does not exist in the UK and Germany. This causes separation, division and poverty. These are all drivers to radicalisation.
Finally, the tabloid newspapers might want to tell you how poor our boarder control is, but it's simply not true. To get in to most countries of Europe you just need to walk through a field or a forest. We have the sea and our boarder controls are pritty strong. No controls are ever perfect, but they are some of the best. But as you say, these are probably home grown terrorists, not people from overseas, but the same is true for the control of weapons coming in to the country needed to carry out these attacks, which is why we seen bomb plots in the UK, which are much harder to hide, as they require complex skills, and chemicals that may not be hard to buy, but are easy to track.
On top of that it is simply a matter of luck. You can foil a hundred attacks but only one has to work. The work of security services and Interpol is not limited to one country, and will have been involved in all of these foiled plots.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?
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LethalShade wrote: Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.
I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.
It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.
Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.
This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LethalShade wrote: Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.
I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.
It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.
Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.
This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.
The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LethalShade wrote: Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.
I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.
It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.
Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.
This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.
The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.
As for the grenades, not easy to come by.
Deliberate misleading ? Or they just didn't care anymore.
As for explosives, you can get pretty much anything in the suburbs as long as you have enough money.
+ I bet most of them were homemade.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LethalShade wrote: Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.
I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.
It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.
Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.
This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.
The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.
As for the grenades, not easy to come by.
For the propaganda value of getting their names plastered all over the news? They want the attention, the notoriety, the 24/7 news headlines dissecting their lives and beliefs.
I imagine that they would have forewarned any of their associates who might be implicated so they could go to ground.
So far over 180 are confirmed dead and fears are that there may be more attacks.
Sweet feth help those poor french and I hope that they stay safe tonight.
Well. I actually tried fighting them and that didn't work either. If anything it made the problem worse.
But I'll tell you this. They say the same things about us. We will never understand their way of life. We will never be able to coexist. We will never be able to find peace.
And you're both right. As long as we never try, we never will. I'm open to your suggestions too. What do you suggest? Kill "them" all? Because that makes you so much better than "they" are. So much more righteous. We could always invade the Middle East again. That worked out well. Iraq being so stable and all now.
What do you say we just nuke them then? Yeah! Glass parking lot the whole desert. Men, women, and children. Who cares as long as "they" are dead.
You suffer from the same problems our enemy does. The same crisis. The root of these issues. You believe in "them." You believe somehow a man born with a different flag over his head or a different book in his hand is inherently evil. That we can never find a way to make peace with them. And until both of you realize that that is simply ridiculous, until you both realize hatred is a decision. Violence is a choice. Until you both understand that, we will need silent, brutal warriors to fight wars that shouldn't be happening in the first place.
I'm not saying we surrender. Blow up whatever you want. But don't just give up on peace either, don't give up on your fellow humans, or these attacks really will never stop.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LethalShade wrote: Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.
I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.
It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.
Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.
This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.
The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.
As for the grenades, not easy to come by.
No, it makes perfect sense if Islamic State managed to slip one or more of their fighters or other supporters into Europe through the current migrant/refugee crisis.
Islamic State's only goal is to exterminate every last one of us filthy, "unbelievers" and raise every trace of civilisation to ash. They want us to know it was them. They want us to know that their self-styled "holy soldiers" are coming to kill us.
Their leadership knows full well that Western leadership is too damn soft and will not lift a finger to retaliate in any even remotely meaningful way.
It definitely IS a very scary prospect in light of the current crisis in Europe, as intel groups & aid workers on the ground have found that roughly 20% of Syrian refugees are at best tolerant of Islamic State, and at worst, supportive of them. (because they hate Assad and by extention Russia more)
I bet this is only the beginning, as more and more of the millions migrating out of troubled religious conflict zones make it into Europe, and soon, Canada and the US.
British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well. I am in a job that means that I would almost certainly be deploying if there is a ground presence.
There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.
British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well.
There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.
Some "experts" on TV strongly advocated a form of isolationism, by calling our soldiers abroad back to France to help us defend the country, saying that we don't have enough resources to bring war to ISIS.
How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Me neither, unfortunately. France will become a police state sooner or later, and I don't know how we can retaliate. Nuke the Middle East ? That would be the dumbest thing anyone has ever done.
You'd be surprised Given the right connections, you can get everything from machineguns to rocket launchers. And those connections aren't hard to come by either. In fact, you can just buy grenades on the dark web. Very cheap too. Given the fall of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and the wars in Libya and Syria (both countries had huge weapon stockpiles), Europe is completely full with all kinds of weaponry. Even the lowliest street gangs have AKs and grenades.
Also, I read on RT that Hollande had just sent France's aircraft carrier (hilarious RT taking great effort in stressing France's ONLY aircraft carrier ) to the Middle East.
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
By smashing ISIS on the ground, in reality that's the only way to really hurt them. The French armed forces, supported by the Iraqis, Kurds and others, would roll right over ISIS, and to be honest I think the deployment of French troops, probably in Iraq, is now a very strong possibility. It will be costly in blood and treasure but someone has to do it and the forces currently ranged against ISIS are clearly unable to make much headway.
ISIS will survive of course but they will be significantly weakened.
ISIS rose due to the absolutely cack handed way that the Iraq war was handled once official war fighting ceased, that cannot be allowed to happen again.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.
As I recall, there was a Priest or someone along those lines who had a sign in a storefront type setup where he protested the violence by keeping a running tally of all on both sides who were killed.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.
This is a completely different ball game. At least with the IRA, you knew their ultimate objective (united Ireland) and as history shows, you could sit down and talk to them, a la Good Friday agreement.
ISIS, on the other hand, revel in destruction for its own sake. Nihilism seems to be their only ethos. Difficult, if not impossible to compromise with that.
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
By smashing ISIS on the ground, in reality that's the only way to really hurt them. The French armed forces, supported by the Iraqis, Kurds and others, would roll right over ISIS, and to be honest I think the deployment of French troops, probably in Iraq, is now a very strong possibility. It will be costly in blood and treasure but someone has to do it and the forces currently ranged against ISIS are clearly unable to make much headway.
ISIS will survive of course but they will be significantly weakened.
ISIS rose due to the absolutely cack handed way that the Iraq war was handled once official war fighting ceased, that cannot be allowed to happen again.
Like most people, I'm not entirely sure what to do to stop ISIS, but dropping bombs from 30,000 feet and bombing up some camels and sand dunes doesn't seem to be working. If anything, it makes things worse.
You'd be surprised Given the right connections, you can get everything from machineguns to rocket launchers. And those connections aren't hard to come by either. In fact, you can just buy grenades on the dark web. Very cheap too.
Given the fall of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and the wars in Libya and Syria (both countries had huge weapon stockpiles), Europe is completely full with all kinds of weaponry. Even the lowliest street gangs have AKs and grenades.
Also, I read on RT that Hollande had just sent France's aircraft carrier (hilarious RT taking great effort in stressing France's ONLY aircraft carrier ) to the Middle East.
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
WARSAW, Nov 14 (Reuters) - Poland cannot accept migrants under European Union (EU) quotas after Friday's attacks in Paris, Poland's European affairs minister designate Konrad Szymanski said on Saturday.
In a commentary published in the right-leaning news portal wPolityce.pl, Szymanski said his incoming government did not agree with Poland's commitment to accept its share of an EU-wide relocation of immigrants, and now, "in the face of the tragic acts in Paris, we do not see the political possibilities to implement (this)."
Szymanski will take up his position on Monday as part of a government formed by the last month's election winner, the conservative and eurosceptic Law and Justice (PiS) party. (Reporting by Adrian Krajewski; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall)
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
Yep, and it works so well I bet 50% of the crew will come back with a green, phosphorescent color and some cancers. The Charles de Gaulle is getting old.
Jihadin wrote: Only thing one can do is
Prepare as best you can and be ready for the worst case possible attack.
With previous terror attacks, I was all in favour of giving people guns to defend themselves, like what you guys have in the USA.
But if you're sitting in the bar, having a drink, gun at your side, not really paying attention, and somebody walks in with hidden explosives on them...
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
Yep, and it works so well I bet 50% of the crew will come back with a green, phosphorescent color and some cancers. The Charles de Gaulle is getting old.
With talk like that, one would think you don't want the navy to have superpowers
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: But if you're sitting in the bar, having a drink, gun at your side, not really paying attention, and somebody walks in with hidden explosives on them...
If you aren't paying attention then it doesn't matter if you are armed or unarmed. Pay attention to your surrounding.
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
Yep, and it works so well I bet 50% of the crew will come back with a green, phosphorescent color and some cancers. The Charles de Gaulle is getting old.
the Enterprise was 5 decades at her final time in service, ships can last a while.
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
Yep, and it works so well I bet 50% of the crew will come back with a green, phosphorescent color and some cancers. The Charles de Gaulle is getting old.
With talk like that, one would think you don't want the navy to have superpowers
I've always advocated the extensive use of radioactive spiders to make super soldiers.
Going back to the topic, only solution I can see for now and for myself is leaving the country once I graduate, if I'm still alive in four years.
I'm not afraid, tho. Well. I kinda am but I don't let myself be poisoned by fear. Things are too grim to be afraid.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: But if you're sitting in the bar, having a drink, gun at your side, not really paying attention, and somebody walks in with hidden explosives on them...
If you aren't paying attention then it doesn't matter if you are armed or unarmed. Pay attention to your surrounding.
Nobody, not even an elite soldier will be fully alert 100% of the time. It's human nature. people get tired, attention gets diverted, somebody could bump into you, or spill a drink over you etc etc
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
Yep, and it works so well I bet 50% of the crew will come back with a green, phosphorescent color and some cancers. The Charles de Gaulle is getting old.
With talk like that, one would think you don't want the navy to have superpowers
I've always advocated the extensive use of radioactive spiders to make super soldiers.
Going back to the topic, only solution I can see for now and for myself is leaving the country once I graduate, if I'm still alive in four years.
I'm not afraid, tho. Well. I kinda am but I don't let myself be poisoned by fear. Things are too grim to be afraid.
It's easy for me to say this sitting in the middle of nowhere, but you're right - don't give way to fear. They want you and your countrymen to be scared. If you do that, these murdering scumbags have won...
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Nobody, not even an elite soldier will be fully alert 100% of the time. It's human nature. people get tired, attention gets diverted, somebody could bump into you, or spill a drink over you etc etc
Sometimes it's just fate...
Ordinarily I would rise to the bait of this type of comment, but given the nature of this thread I don't think petty quibbles about what should be obvious are appropriate.
British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well. I am in a job that means that I would almost certainly be deploying if there is a ground presence.
There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.
I doubt that. We don't need boots on the ground in Syria, we need more drones. More drones are likely.
The Russians are trying the large scale approach, the west the precise target approach, both from the air.
This also can be won. Because the casualties are so disproportionate and ISIS are being starved of legitimate targets. It will take time though.
It's easy for me to say this sitting in the middle of nowhere, but you're right - don't give way to fear. They want you and your countrymen to be scared. If you do that, these murdering scumbags have won...
"Fear is poison to the mind". My psychiatric issues aside, I'll probably be fine. Can't say this will be the case for my fellow countrymen. My parents are clearly afraid. This is... Tiring, to say the least.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.
This is a completely different ball game. At least with the IRA, you knew their ultimate objective (united Ireland) and as history shows, you could sit down and talk to them, a la Good Friday agreement.
ISIS, on the other hand, revel in destruction for its own sake. Nihilism seems to be their only ethos. Difficult, if not impossible to compromise with that.
I'm sorry but you are quite wrong. ISIS are not nihilists they have a clear goal the establishment of their twisted version of an Islamic state. The IRAs stated goal was the removal of the British presence in Ireland and the creation of a socialist republic not a united Ireland that meant removing anyone who held unionism as a political belief which they interpreted as the Protestant people. ISIS will remove or bully anyone from the state they want to create who won't agree with them just as the IRA tried to remove or destroy those who disagreed with them from Ireland. The conflict with ISIS is in its infancy their will be many talks battles and trade offs with them in the years to come.
My point in drawing the comparisons was to show how we as civilised humans want to respond to inhumanity and barbarism but the complexity of effective response is generally beyond us and will take generations to come to any form of, imperfect, conclusion.
Orlanth wrote: I doubt that. We don't need boots on the ground in Syria, we need more drones. More drones are likely.
The Russians are trying the large scale approach, the west the precise target approach, both from the air.
This also can be won. Because the casualties are so disproportionate and ISIS are being starved of legitimate targets. It will take time though.
This is the crux of the matter. Putting boots on the ground will give ISIS what they consider legitimate targets, and it will give them a recruiting tool. They can shift their perception from murderers coldly executing prisoners and raping women to holy warriors fighting the good fight against the Infidel. They are hoping for rash action. They want another nation to have a kneejerk response and get suckered into a conflict that pits a conventional military against an asymmetric force for a protracted period.
That that is before we get into the myriad of players already involved in this conflict and their agendas; Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Hezbollah, Kurds, FSA, etc.
Pacific wrote: How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.
Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.
I really don't know what the answer is.
Strong border controls and revoking of citizenship? When a jihadist leaves for Syria or Iraq, make sure they're NEVER allowed back into the country.
Strong border controls and revoking of citizenship? When a jihadist leaves for Syria or Iraq, make sure they're NEVER allowed back into the country.
Don't let them even go there. Let them disappear.
Immediately shift all attention on strengthening EU borders. Introduce a strict immigration system comparable to the US one and send everyone else away.
Knockagh wrote: I'm sorry but you are quite wrong. ISIS are not nihilists they have a clear goal the establishment of their twisted version of an Islamic state. The IRAs stated goal was the removal of the British presence in Ireland and the creation of a socialist republic not a united Ireland that meant removing anyone who held unionism as a political belief which they interpreted as the Protestant people. ISIS will remove or bully anyone from the state they want to create who won't agree with them just as the IRA tried to remove or destroy those who disagreed with them from Ireland. The conflict with ISIS is in its infancy their will be many talks battles and trade offs with them in the years to come.
My point in drawing the comparisons was to show how we as civilised humans want to respond to inhumanity and barbarism but the complexity of effective response is generally beyond us and will take generations to come to any form of, imperfect, conclusion.
As someone born in Northern Ireland and who lived there for almost 30 years before emigrating I am sorry to say that your IRA and ISIS comparison is wholly disingenuous. The IRA wanted to have Ireland returned to the Irish and to remove the British presence from the island. It was a political struggle which used religion as a convenient designation for each side based on historic events (Reformation, Plantation, English Civil War, etc.). It was not a religiously motivated conflict. The fact that the primary motivation for the IRA was a political solution meant that eventually they could be negotiated with. The IRA was almost exclusively comprised of those born in Ireland.
ISIS on the other land want to establish a religious territory that they control which is not an established country that they are trying to free from a foreign presence. ISIS is motivated primarily by their religious interpretations of religious doctrine that other read without recourse to violence. ISIS has also has their ranks swollen from those sympathetic to their beliefs across the Middle East and beyond.
I doubt that. We don't need boots on the ground in Syria, we need more drones. More drones are likely.
Air power, including drones, aren't going to make much, if any, difference, it never does. The only way to 'beat' ISIS in the short term is to take and hold ground and for that you need infantry. In the long term the only realistic option is diplomacy and completely reforming the public institutions in that part of the world but that will take decades.
The Iraqi army isn't up to the job, the Syrians are deeply, deeply divided and the Kurds are badly trained and equipped with the result that ISIS has been able to consolidate its hold on its territory and look for targets of opportunity. They need to be smashed in their heartlands which would allow the various local forces to keep them suppressed and seriously undermine the image that they try to project to the world. Another 10 year conflict would be disastrous but it won't take anywhere near that long to militarily beat them on the ground.
I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?
By smashing ISIS on the ground, in reality that's the only way to really hurt them. The French armed forces, supported by the Iraqis, Kurds and others, would roll right over ISIS, and to be honest I think the deployment of French troops, probably in Iraq, is now a very strong possibility. It will be costly in blood and treasure but someone has to do it and the forces currently ranged against ISIS are clearly unable to make much headway.
ISIS will survive of course but they will be significantly weakened.
ISIS rose due to the absolutely cack handed way that the Iraq war was handled once official war fighting ceased, that cannot be allowed to happen again.
If, and I stress IF, we (the 'West') deploy ground troops once again to Iraq, then it should be purely an offensive operation. Send our European and American troops in as the elite vanguard of a ground offensive to push ISIS back to the Syrian border, then we GET OUT ASAP leaving mop-up and counter insurgency operations to the Iraqi's. The last thing I want is for my country to be bogged down in yet another decade long, bloody occupation with no clearly defined objective and end in sight.
We should stay the feth out of Syria unless we obtain the explicit permission and cooperation of the Syrian government (and by extension Russia). Its not worth risking a direct conflict with Russia by stepping on their toes and interfering in their (perceived) areas of influence. Drive ISIS out of Iraq and contain them in Syria, and leave it to Russia and the Syrians to deal with them.
BBC saying that at least one of the attackers was French, with 3 from Belgium.
France has been here before with home grown terrorists (OAS springs to mind) but it always comes as a shock to see people turning on their own country like this.
British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well. I am in a job that means that I would almost certainly be deploying if there is a ground presence.
There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.
I doubt that. We don't need boots on the ground in Syria, we need more drones. More drones are likely.
The Russians are trying the large scale approach, the west the precise target approach, both from the air.
This also can be won. Because the casualties are so disproportionate and ISIS are being starved of legitimate targets. It will take time though.
No, you need boots on the ground, as its easy to avoid drones; just hide under a solid piece of cover.
Without the ability to take and hold land, and actually flush them out of hiding, damage against ISIS will be minimal.
History will tell you that wars are won with infantry, not artillery and airpower alone.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Send our European and American troops in as the elite vanguard of a ground offensive to push ISIS back to the Syrian border, then we GET OUT ASAP leaving mop-up and counter insurgency operations to the Iraqi's.
Exactly. Some kind of rapid reaction force (stationed in Cyprus or Kuwait) set up to smash ISIS every single time that they gather in force would also be useful.
If we do go boots on the ground it should be overwhelming force. We can outnumber them if we want, if we go in we should do so. Any position we detect or think we detect gets the everloving crap blown out of it with artillery and airpower, troops advancing slowly and inexorably behind a curtain of firepower.
While US and Russia are bombing Syria, the terrorists lurk in the heart of Europe. In my opinion i think France and Germany should close the borders, just like Hungary did. I stand for this opinion and I don't care if does not fit the leftist political correct agenda.
BBC saying that at least one of the attackers was French, with 3 from Belgium.
France has been here before with home grown terrorists (OAS springs to mind) but it always comes as a shock to see people turning on their own country like this.
If you asked them, they'd probably say they don't consider France their country.
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
RAF Akrotiri is in range. It has a longer runway too.
This is actually an understatement Akrotiri has one of the longest military runways in the world.
If you read the side notes on the story about the Syrian refugees that landed there Akrotiri is in active use already.
Grey Templar wrote: If we do go boots on the ground it should be overwhelming force. We can outnumber them if we want, if we go in we should do so. Any position we detect or think we detect gets the everloving crap blown out of it with artillery and airpower, troops advancing slowly and inexorably behind a curtain of firepower.
Even if you guys went in there full force with 100,000 troops, I doubt it would make much of a difference to be honest. The entire region seems to be completely and utterly fethed up.
At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!
RAF Akrotiri is in range. It has a longer runway too.
This is actually an understatement Akrotiri has one of the longest military runways in the world.
If you read the side notes on the story about the Syrian refugees that landed there Akrotiri is in active use already.
DalinCriid wrote: I stand for this opinion and I don't care if does not fit the leftist political correct agenda.
Which will do absolutely nothing to deter homegrown terrorists (which at least half of those involved here appear to be) nor will it do much to interrupt the supply of arms which this kind of operation absolutely depends upon.
) to the Middle East.
