So, specific example here: I'm working on a Space Wolf successor army, and I'm building a scout unit. One of the markers is "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and I want to know, basically, do all the Options rules that apply to the scouts also apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader?

Any Wolf Scout may replace his boltgun with a:
- Space Marine shotgun or close combat weapon…free
- Sniper rifle…1 pt/model

Can my Wolf Guard Pack Leader still take a sniper rifle, since he would have STARTED as a scout, or does he ONLY function as, basically, a Wolf Guard per the Wolf Guard unit rules, other than being part of the scout unit? I'll be frank, I'm mostly asking because I want to give him the stealth cloak but I need to know if he qualifies as both the Wolf Guard AND a scout, because he's part of the scout unit, or if not.

All of the Special Rules for the Scouts actually apply to the whole party, so they don't even matter, really. I just need to know for the gear list. And I DO suspect the answer is "no", but I ain't worried about it if it is.

There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Thanks for confirming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further inquiry for the specific example given. Does my Wolf Guard Pack Leader take the base war gear shown in the Wolf Pack listing, such as the Chain Sword, or does he take the exact same base war gear shown in the Wolf Scout listing, even though he's not a scout?

If it says a specific name, such as "A Wolf Scout may take", then only the specifically named model with that statline can take it. If it says "Any Model may take", then any model, regardless of their name, can take it.

There should be a separate listing saying "A Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take" or something to that effect in the listing if a Wolf Guard is an option for the unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

If you take a Wolf Scout and take the option to give him a Sniper Rifle, this option is legal. If you subsequently take the option to make him a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, you would presumably still have the Sniper Rifle as NOTHING in the rules tell you to throw away pieces of wargear that have already been paid for. Sometimes, you'll see people argue that upgrading a model to a different model name would also have the side effect of "resetting" its wargear to the default set for the new model name. I don't tend to agree with this, as again, there is nothing telling you to throw away pieces of wargear that you've already paid for.

There are plenty of situations where Option A MUST be taken before Option B, more or less confirming that an order of operations is sometimes important. Models that can take Terminator Armour and then subsequently take Terminator Weapons are a good example. Option A must be taken before Option B. Proponents for an order of operations typically argue that it would be left to right, top to bottom... the way English is read. This goes a long way towards explaining why the first option in most units is to include more models. Such an option would necessarily have to be listed first.

Talk to your opponents and come up with a local consensus. You will not find one here.

 Kriswall wrote:
It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

Using that logic, then I should have no trouble shooting the heavy bolter on a Leman Russ that had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result on its heavy bolter in the last turn. After all, it never says it lasts the rest of the game and you're saying we don't look back at previous actions to see if the current action we're wanting to take leads to a legal result.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

Using that logic, then I should have no trouble shooting the heavy bolter on a Leman Russ that had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result on its heavy bolter in the last turn. After all, it never says it lasts the rest of the game and you're saying we don't look back at previous actions to see if the current action we're wanting to take leads to a legal result.

Entirely different situation. The Weapon Destroyed result tells us that... well... the weapon has been destroyed. Of course you can't fire it in the next turn. It's no longer there. If you can point to a rule stating that a Sniper Rifle I've paid for has been removed or taken away, I will agree that your example is similar. In the absence of such a rule, I assume the Sniper Rifle is still there.

No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

I will agree that a model who FIRST upgrades to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader cannot THEN take a Sniper Rifle. I will not agree that a model who FIRST takes a Sniper Rifle cannot THEN upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Order of operations is very important.

This is similar to how certain Marine HQ units must FIRST upgrade to Terminator Armour BEFORE taking Terminator only equipment. The second option is ONLY legal if you've FULLY RESOLVED the first option. This proves that options occur sequentially and not simultaneously.

As to support for why a previous result prevents an illegal action in once case and not the other... in your example, the two events are directly related. If a weapon has been previously destroyed, it cannot be fired because the the weapon no longer exists when you go to resolve your second event. In my example, nothing in the first event prevents the second event from occurring. Your assumption is that upgrading a Wolf Scout to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is an illegal action if that Wolf Scout had PREVIOUSLY taken the upgrade for a Sniper Rifle. I challenge this assumption. There is no requirement saying that a Wolf Scout has to avoid options to ALTERNATELY upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. For reference, have a look at the Tau Commander Army List Entry. In that case, a Commander is specifically not allowed to take options and THEN upgrade to a Coldstar version. It's listed as an alternate choice. The Wolf Guard Pack Leader is NOT listed as an alternate choice.

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus.

That's disingenuous of you. There's not a consensus, but there's an overwhelming shared opinion versus a relatively tiny minority.

There's never a consensus on anything here.

"I want to shoot my heavy bolter. It had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result last turn. That was a previous turn, so I can ignore the 'Weapon Destroyed' result and shoot a weapon I can't legally shoot."

"I want to upgrade my Wolf Scout to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. He has a sniper rifle that a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can't take. That was a previous step in building my army list, so I can ignore the fact that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader would have a weapon he can't legally have."

Its the exact same situation requiring you to ignorie a previous result or choice that would lead to an illegal situation. So again, please provide a rule to supports allowing the sniper rifle on the Wolf Scout Pack Leader but not firing the heavy bolter the turn after it had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus.

That's disingenuous of you. There's not a consensus, but there's an overwhelming shared opinion versus a relatively tiny minority.

There's never a consensus on anything here.

Actually, the majority of threads come down to two vocal minorities yelling at each other. It's almost always a handful of people who won't back down. I don't think it's disingenuous at all to say that these threads rarely end with consensus. They generally end with a mod lock.

Ultimately, these threads generally end with one side adamantly stating that every option has to be checked for legality at the end of the option selection process and not throughout, but without citing any rules to backup that position. The other side claims an order of operations in selecting options is heavily implied (but not outright stated) and then says that if we assume an order of operations, we can take upgrades in order and end up with, for example, an Apothecary with a Meltagun. Next, someone suggests that everyone cool down and just ask their opponent. Insults start to fly, with implications that someone learn to read English being the most common. Finally, a mod lock occurs. A few weeks later, someone asks if an Ork Boy with a Big Shoota can be upgraded to a Nob and retain the Big Shoota. The cycle then begins anew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
"I want to shoot my heavy bolter. It had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result last turn. That was a previous turn, so I can ignore the 'Weapon Destroyed' result and shoot a weapon I can't legally shoot."

"I want to upgrade my Wolf Scout to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. He has a sniper rifle that a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can't take. That was a previous step in building my army list, so I can ignore the fact that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader would have a weapon he can't legally have."

Its the exact same situation with you ignoring a previous result or choice that would lead to an illegal situation. So again, please provide a rule to supports allowing the sniper rifle on the Wolf Scout Pack Leader but not firing the heavy bolter the turn after it had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

Walk me though the process of selecting options. I'd like to see at what exact point you think a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is selecting a Sniper Rifle. Feel free to treat me like I'm 5 years old. In my scenario, this never occurs, so I'd like to see what you think.

Also, feel free to cite the rule stating that a Wolf Scout who has selected a Sniper Rifle can't subsequently select the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

 Kriswall wrote:
Also, feel free to cite the rule stating that a Wolf Scout who has selected a Sniper Rifle can't subsequently select the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

Where is the sniper rifle listed as an option for a Wolf Scout Pack Leader after being upgraded? The only way you can take one is to ignore a previous choice on your part when you upgrade the model to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so why can't I ignore the previous 'Weapon Destroyed' result on the heavy bolter?

Haha. OP, as you can see, there is no consensus.

Talk it out with your opponent or group before you play a game. Warhammer 40k almost demands this nowadays, the RAW is usually ambiguous and can be interpreted many ways.

Personally I wouldn't care if you interpreted the rules to allow you to pick a sniper rifle and then upgrade him to a wolf guard leader. But I'm here more to have fun than win games, and as such am pretty RAI or RAYWTP (rules as you want to play) guy. GW clearly doesn't balance their rules or describe them amazingly well, so there's no reason any hobbyist can't decide how they want to play the game together with their opponent.

This thread will likely devolve into two sides not backing down, as Kriswall mentioned.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. Its the same situation. You look back in one situation to see if your current action leads to a legal result, but not the other. Please provide support why a previous result prevent an illegal action in one case and not the other.

Logically, it ISN'T the same situation, Let's stick this into a real world situation. A military sniper promoted to Officer is STILL a sniper, but a regular soldier that gets promoted to officer and THEN wants to learn to shoot a rifle isn't a sniper. At best, he might become a decent marksman, but he's not a sniper. The logic here extends to the game... A Scout who has a sniper rifle getting promoted to, basically, unit commander would still BE a sniper, and would likely be teaching 'new' scouts how to use them, but a Wolf Guard that was getting a promotion to Wolf Guard Pack Leader and was PLACED in command of his unit would, on the other hand, NOT be a sniper. There's an enormous difference between sticking a guy with a certain set of skills into better armor and sticking a guy with a certain suit of armor into a command position.

A weapon, on the other hand, is clearly - and inherently - a finite resource. You blow up your gun, your gun is blown up, period. Just because a guy might be able to keep his sniper rifle when he gets an extra stripe on his sleeve doesn't mean that a gun magically reassembles itself. He's not an orc, after all.

I suppose THIS question would come down to the other question I asked, though, WHICH 'starting' list of gear do I use? Does my Wolf Guard Pack Leader in charge of my scouts START with the scout war gear list, or does he START with the Wolf Guard gear list? Because, if he's starting with the Wolf Guard list but limited in what he can take as upgrades because he's with a scout unit, that's one thing, but for him to have the scout war gear, but NOT be allowed to take the scout upgrades/options, would be a logical pitfall, since it cripples him both as a scout AND as a Pack Leader.

And yes, AncientSkarbrand, I see the inherent lack of consensus.

A Wolf Scout Pack Leader is NOT a Wolf Scout. The rules make that abundantly clear by giving those model's separate stat lines and options. That is why entries such as Wolf Guard have options for 'Wolf Guard', 'Wolf Guard Pack Leader' and for 'Any model'. If the option was for any model in the squad, it would have been listed for 'Any model'.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Haha. OP, as you can see, there is no consensus.

There's only one dissenting opinion. That is practically a consensus.

 Ghaz wrote:
A Wolf Scout Pack Leader is NOT a Wolf Scout. The rules make that abundantly clear by giving those model's separate stat lines and options. That is why entries such as Wolf Guard have options for 'Wolf Guard', 'Wolf Guard Pack Leader' and for 'Any model'. If the option was for any model in the squad, it would have been listed for 'Any model'.

That actually actively ignores the followup question I was asking while trying to hammer your own opinion home. I REALIZE that it's NOT a scout, and I REALIZE that the separate stats line indicate this, HOWEVER, allow me to give you a counter point:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader ... 10 pts"

This clearly indicates that, while he is NOT a scout, he WAS a scout to begin with. Unless my understanding is flaws (which, since I'm kinda new to all of this, is possible) that would qualify as a 'special rule', and I'm under the impression that a special rule ALWAYS replaces the standard rule. That's part of why I'm asking the question of what gear he starts with. If he STARTS with the scout gear, because he was a scout to begin with and UPGRADED to the unit commander, then it clarifies and gives me a specific, logical direction to go. If, on the other hand, he starts with the gear listed for the WOLF GUARD, since the wolf guard is IDENTICAL to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, then it gives me a different, but still specific and logical, direction to go.

What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

To take Terminator weapons, you must purchase Terminator armour, using vanilla captains as an example, they become a "Captain in Terminator Armour" when upgraded, and their entry states they may take weapons from x list, y list and z list, but the standard captain can take stuff from a, b and c. Follow the unit entry's upgrade list from the top down.


This is how we don't get Terminators with boltguns and combat shields.

 Ghaz wrote:
What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

Zarius wrote:
By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

Scout and Infiltrate both say "units that contain at least one model with this special rule", allowing Wolf Guard Pack Leaders to scout/infiltrate.
The Wolf Guard doesn't have scout/infiltrate but it doesn't need to.

Maybe you should look up Scout and Infiltrate in the rulebook and note that only one model in the unit is required to have the rule for it to effect the entire unit.

Zarius wrote:
By that logic, why would the scouts' Scout and Infiltrate abilities apply to the Wolf Guard Pack Leader? He's not a scout. And, to top that off, he's in heavier armor. Why would he get to take advantage of the special abilities of the Scout unit just because they're in the same unit? Should it be the opposite, the fact that this clunky guy is in their unit, by that logic, would completely nullify their abilities.

The Leader is still on the datasheet and those Special Rules are not noted as being separated from the rest of the unit like his unit type is.

However, he is a different model with a different stat line, unit type, and option set than the Wolf Scout. Whether he can access the options before the upgrade is never fully defined.

Charistoph wrote:
The Leader is still on the datasheet and those Special Rules are not noted as being separated from the rest of the unit like his unit type is.

They are however noted as 'Wolf Scout Only' The only one that matters however is 'Move Through Cover' and only when the squad is down to just the Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

 Ghaz wrote:
What the model WAS is of no concern. He is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. A Wolf Scout Pack Leader does not have the option to take a sniper rifle.

Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout. Per your own logic, that makes the upgrade to Wolf Scout Pack Leader illegal since it's not something a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can take.

See how ridiculous this sounds?

For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout.

Wrong. It is an option for a Wolf Scout taken by a Wolf Scout. Or are you saying that a Wolf Scout is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader before he takes the option? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 Kriswall wrote:
For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

The I don't have to go back and validate that my heavy bolter hasn't suffered a 'Weapon Destroyed' result before I fire it. Good to know. Fire away!

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah, I understand now. The model is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader, so any options not available to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader will be illegal. That makes life easier since I guess that means we can never have Wolf Scout Pack Leaders in our lists. After all, the option to upgrade to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader is only available to Wolf Scouts and our model isn't a Wolf Scout.

Wrong. It is an option for a Wolf Scout taken by a Wolf Scout. Or are you saying that a Wolf Scout is a Wolf Scout Pack Leader before he takes the option? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

 Kriswall wrote:
For the umpteenth time, there is NO RULE stating that we have to go back and validate each option against the model's final state. If there were, we'd never be able to upgrade models to other model types as above.

The I don't have to go back and validate that my heavy bolter hasn't suffered a 'Weapon Destroyed' result before I fire it. Good to know. Fire away!

No point arguing with someone who refuses to cite rules to support his position. Until you cite a rule stating that each option a model takes has to be validated against that model's final form, I will assume that everything you say is a house rule and that you don't understand the difference between rules as written and personal house rules.

Enjoy your weekend!

To the OP... this is how every single instance of this discussion goes. I'm far from the only person who feels this way. I just happen to be the only person stupid enough to having bothered responding this time around. Discuss with your opponents. If you're playing in an organized event, ask the organizer.

Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?

 Ghaz wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?

Vehicle Damage Table, 5 - Weapon Destroyed - "One of the vehicle's weapons (randomly chosen) is destroyed - including any combi- or built in weapons."

Presumably I don't have to define destroyed for you. But... I'm going to anyways.

de·stroy
dəˈstroi/
verb
past tense: destroyed; past participle: destroyed
put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
"the room had been destroyed by fire"

So, a destroyed weapon, using the most common English definition given that there is no more specific in game definition, is a weapon that has been damaged such that it's existence has ended. It no longer exists.

The Shooting Sequence, 3. Select a Weapon - "Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with."

Are you equipped with a weapon that no longer exists? No. Therefore, you can't shoot with it.

I played your silly game and answered your question. Now you play mine.

Please demonstrate one of the following via rules...
1. Options can only be selected from top to bottom, thus meaning that a Wolf Scout is required to take the option for being upgraded before being presented with the option to take a Sniper Rifle.
OR
2. A model's option choices have to be validated against the model's final state after all option choices are made.

I don't see any rules telling me to do either of these things.

IF the option was "A Wolf Scout who has not selected a Sniper Rifle may be upgraded to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader", you'd have a leg to stand on.

 Ghaz wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Except that if your bolter is destroyed, you don't HAVE a bolter anymore. You can't validate whether or not you don't have a weapon that no longer exists.

And how do I know its destroyed? I have to look back and see that I had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result, yet for some reason Kriswall says I don't have to look back and see if the Wolf Scout has a weapon that the Wolf Guard Pack Leader does not have as an option. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I either look back for both cases or neither, so which is it?

The point that Kriswall is trying to make is that you don't magically LOOSE the ability to do something just because you get a promotion. If your gun explodes, you no longer HAVE a gun to check. But just because you get stuck into a different suit of armor doesn't mean you magically loose the skills, or that you magically loose the gear. All a space marine 'sniper rifle' really is is a bolter with a longer barrel, so you can't even really make the argument that he'd loose access to the gear because his armor won't fit in the finger guard.

Let me rephrase what you're saying a little, or at least what I'm understanding that you're saying: by your logic, you're telling me that he would ALSO start with the scout initial gear list, because that's the unit he belongs to and the gear list for that unit. But that means that, even though he's a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, and not a Scout, he can't take both a Melee weapon swap out and a Ranged swap out, because he doesn't have access to the Chain Sword, even though that IS what the unit would start with if he were a Wolf Guard (pack leader or otherwise). The ability to take a Wolf Claw or a Frost Axe AND a plasma pistol or a storm bolter, or even a combi- if you want the one-shot, make the Wolf Guard worth taking. The ability to shoot the crap out of the enemy and then smash a tank with a frost axe or to wade into a brood swarm is literally what makes them worth the cost. But by your logic, he wouldn't start with the gear that would allow him to do that. BUT, on the same coin, because he's not a scout, he can't have the sniper rifle and the cloak. What makes him worth taking? The extra plasma pistol? The meltabomb? Nice, but not worth the cost. Something that hurts me is only useful in rare instances, even when I CAN get within the 12" range. The meltabomb is nice against a tank, but it's only a little *edit* more *end edit* powerful than a Krak grenade. He literally isn't worth the cost without EITHER the ability to function effectively as a scout, OR the ability to take ALL of his normal options. So, if he can't function as either what he IS or what he WAS, what's the point in even including the option?

All the WGPL's come with different load-outs that are specifically stated in the datasheet of the unit.
WGPL =/= WG
WGPL's have to follow the wargear options that is stated in the unit datasheet. You can't take WG's wargear by being a WGPL.

For Grey Hunters, their WGPL comes with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. And has it's own upgrades like TDA, etc.
For Wolf Scouts, their WGPL comes with Bolt Pistol and Boltgun. And has it's own upgrades.

It says in the BRB,
"Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

This tells us that the WGPL's were never considered Wolf Scouts by the game when determining starting wargear/options/statline. If you decide to upgrade one Wolf Scout to a WGPL, it would enter the unit with it's own profile. You aren't ever "re-writing" the chosen Wolf Scout's weapon/wargear, but it is being replaced entirely with the WGPL's own personal profile.

So I guess, technically, you could upgrade the Wolf Scout to have a Sniper Rifle if you wanted to. And then upgrade the Wolf Scout with a Sniper Rifle, to a WGPL. But then, it would just be replaced with WGPL's own profile, which doesn't come with a Sniper Rifle. So there would be no point.

Again, you don't have a single rule to back that up. Please provide a single rule that says you can give a unit an option he can't take by trying to think that you're being clever when you build your army list. And while you're at it, you still haven't answered my previous questions.

 Ghaz wrote:
Look at the Grey Hunters entry. Why is the option to take a plasma pistol limited to a Grey Hunter while the option to take a close combat weapon is available to "any model"? If GW wanted the Wolf Guard Leader to be able to take the squad's option of a plasma pistol wouldn't it say "One model..." instead of "One Grey Hunter..."? What possible reason could there be to allow an upgrade if taken in one order and disallow it if taken in a different order? No one would ever use the order that disallows the option. How would you even know if someone did take the plasma pistol after he upgraded the model to a Wolf Guard Leader? Claiming you can take an option that's not available to the model by choosing the order you take your upgrades just does not pass the smell test.

Rasko wrote:

They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

God help the man that tries to take away my outflanking Fortress of Redemption

Zarius wrote:
First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

No problem mate. But no, the "just another trooper" means that it is considered part of the unit (before deployment, count towards the number of models in the unit for "if you have 10 models, you can take an extra Special Weapon", etc, and those types of things.). And that usually, they will have enhanced characteristics and different weapon options.

It explicitly says that it has it's own profile, which naturally include starting gear, wargear options, statline, etc. Just being in the unit does not give a WGPL, the ability to purchase items that aren't in his profile. It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The datasheet then tell us exactly what the WGPL starts with, exactly what upgrades can be taken by it, and it's specific statline.

Rasko wrote:

Zarius wrote:
First, off, Rasko, kudos on actually using text. That means I can go and do a ctrl+f in the manual to find it. I appreciate that. Now, that said, while I DO understand the rest of it, this little part seemingly completely reverses the meaning of it. If they're "just another trooper" in a scout unit... If they're just another trooper in a unit of Blood Claws... Them being "just another trooper" indicates that they'd HAVE those selections that are specific to the 'lesser' troops, but with EXTRA stuff specific to him. That one little section seems to reverse the meaning...

No problem mate. But no, the "just another trooper" means that it is considered part of the unit (before deployment, count towards the number of models in the unit for "if you have 10 models, you can take an extra Special Weapon", etc, and those types of things.). And that usually, they will have enhanced characteristics and different weapon options.

It explicitly says that it has it's own profile, which naturally include starting gear, wargear options, statline, etc. Just being in the unit does not give a WGPL, the ability to purchase items that aren't in his profile. It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The datasheet then tell us exactly what the WGPL starts with, exactly what upgrades can be taken by it, and it's specific statline.

OK, that sucks. That means that I have to either NOT take him, to get the sniper and cloak, or I have to pick between a plasma pistol or a Frost Axe. *sighs* The way YOU explain it, though, that makes sense. Especially since you DID link quotes.

Rasko wrote:
It is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it, by the virtue of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.".

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

It's important to parse the exact wording of the option, because they differ between units and codices. In the case of a Space Marine Tactical Squad, you are "taking" four Space Marines and one Space Marine Sergeant. There is no overlap between them, so you can't end up with Sarge toting a heavy bolter. In the case of Space Wolves Blood Claws , however, you are "upgrading" an existing model. You started with five Blood Claws, any one of which are entitled to take Blood Claw options in any legal order, including the Pack Leader upgrade.

Note also that certain upgrades like Terminator Armour specify additional conditions (i.e., exchanging bolt pistol, chainsword, and grenades), but absent such phrasing, nothing prevents you from keeping your existing wargear.

Having said all that, I'm certain this thread will continue for many additional pages, but if you want to get a sneak peek of the upcoming circular arguments, search this forum for Apothecary wargear, it's the same situation with the same arguments and many of the same people.

 Kriswall wrote:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

Here was how I understood it,

For the Tactical Squad datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-4 Space Marines
-1 Space Marine Sergeant

For the Wolf Scout datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-5 Wolf Scouts

If you upgrade 1 Wolf Scout to a WGPL, the Unit Composition of the Wolf Scout datasheet is now:
-4 Wolf Scout
-1 WGPL

I'm not seeing a catch 22 that would make taking WGPL impossible.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't "their own profile" include statline, starting gear, upgrade options, special rules, etc? They then make it clear what the statline is, what the starting gear is, and what specific upgrades it has available, and etc on the datasheet.
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

Rasko wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader XX pts"

I'm curious how you intend to take the above option if the model "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available to it". Seriously. That's a major flaw in your argument. Assuming you're correct, there is a catch 22 and you wouldn't be able to take the WGPL upgrade since that's an option only available to Wolf Scouts and you've said that the game never considers the model a Wolf Scout.

Here was how I understood it,

For the Tactical Squad datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-4 Space Marines
-1 Space Marine Sergeant

For the Wolf Scout datasheet, the Unit Composition:
-5 Wolf Scouts

If you upgrade 1 Wolf Scout to a WGPL, the Unit Composition of the Wolf Scout datasheet is now:
-4 Wolf Scout
-1 WGPL

I'm not seeing a catch 22 that would make taking WGPL impossible.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't "their own profile" include statline, starting gear, upgrade options, special rules, etc? They then make it clear what the statline is, what the starting gear is, and what specific upgrades it has available, and etc on the datasheet.
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

You move downwards, Jesus how hard is it?

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts.

I am the same person...

 Kriswall wrote:
His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

Anyway, what I meant by "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available",
is exactly as I re-iterated (quoting myself here), in case people got confused...

Rasko wrote:
Doesn't "but do not have a separate entry" mean that the BRB wants us to use the profile of 'WGPL' and not 'Wolf Scout"? That they are considered entirely separate. The profile of "WGPL" would never have used anything from the profile of "Wolf Scout". The chosen Wolf Scout's profile is never merged or matched to 'become' the WGPL. They make it clear that it is a separate profile altogether.

 Kriswall wrote:
Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

Your quote directly contradicts what you said.
"Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken."

What Unit Composition says is that it shows the number and type of models before upgrades are taken. Once upgrades are taken, the Unit Composition changes.


I'm not seeing anything that contradicts what I wrote. Everything I wrote is supported by the rules. Also, I don't agree that you have to go downward. There is no information to support that. But that doesn't matter in this instance because the profile's are entirely different.

The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Ah ok. If that was what you meant by descending, then I agree.

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

He DOES have a point there, the wording of the option DOES clearly indicate that it DID start off AS a scout. That's inherent in the fact that the datasheet only becomes 4 scouts and a WPGL AFTER one of the scouts takes the upgrade, thus indicating a 'promotion.' Sorry, but if you get promoted because of an excellence in a specific skill, why would they then remove your ability to USE the skills that got you the promotion in the first place. This would make no logistical sense.

"OK, everyone here is a great sniper, but this guy here is slightly better than the rest. We're promoting you [based on the wording of the rules] to Squad commander, here's your new armor. Turn over your sniper-patterned bolt rifle, oh mighty sniper."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

What... You are using real life as a counter-argument to a game...

Everything I said follows the rules of the game. If you want to take the stance that you are right because of IRL army promotion mechanics... I'm not sure how to respond. Actually, I'm not sure how you could ever go through a game of 40k because it is not IRL...

The profile of the Wolf Scout chosen is replaced by the profile of a WGPL.
This is clearly shown in "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Please walk me through your reasoning in how that sentence means the Wolf Scout profile is 'changed' to become a WGPL profile. It is replaced because they are entirely separate entries, the BRB just didn't separate them. Two entirely separate entities. When the WGPL comes into the unit, it does so with it's own profile (which include it's own statline, it's own starting gear, it's own special rules, etc.).

And as shown before, Unit Compositions do change...

Zarius wrote:
Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

It doesn't matter that this time, he has the exact same starting gear as Wolf Scouts. Look at Grey Hunters. Their WGPL does not have the exact same starting gear. It means nothing. All the WGPL's come with their own profile and starting gear.

Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Rasko wrote:
Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Actually.. He was arguing EXACTLY that, on the basis that a unit wouldn't LOOSE his gear just because he upgrades.

Zarius wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
My point was that he said the model who becomes WGPL "is never considered a Wolf Scout by the game when determining what options are available", yet the option to become a WGPL is only available to Wolf Scouts. His argument is internally inconsistent and makes no logical sense. Also, the Unit Composition, or the "number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken" to quote the Codex, never changes. Your theory above is interesting, but isn't supported in any way, shape or form by the text of the rules.

He DOES have a point there, the wording of the option DOES clearly indicate that it DID start off AS a scout. That's inherent in the fact that the datasheet only becomes 4 scouts and a WPGL AFTER one of the scouts takes the upgrade, thus indicating a 'promotion.' Sorry, but if you get promoted because of an excellence in a specific skill, why would they then remove your ability to USE the skills that got you the promotion in the first place. This would make no logistical sense.

"OK, everyone here is a great sniper, but this guy here is slightly better than the rest. We're promoting you [based on the wording of the rules] to Squad commander, here's your new armor. Turn over your sniper-patterned bolt rifle, oh mighty sniper."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
The pack leader is a different model, it has it's own set of options in the unit listing. The unit composition and war gear show the unit prior to any upgrades taken.

The pack leader is taken as an upgrade, and is from there forward, treated as a new model with a new set of war gear that it comes with as standard, then below that (hence vertically descending) should be the options for it. The pack leader is not specified as being able to take a Sniper Rifle because
A) He has a new statline, new set of war gear and possibly special rules
B) The normal wolf scouts are not permitted to take what the Pack Leader can, GW might not write the most balanced rules but at least it's in order.

If he was able to take a Rifle, it would say so. But it doesn't, just like how Terminator Captains can't take Special Weapons, because it's options are specified as Special Issue and Terminator issue Weapons, etc. The armour is an upgrade and it confers a new set of rules upon it, making it a different unit.

I seriously have no idea why you and ONLY YOU Kriswall are having trouble with such a simple concept


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tl;dr If it's not directly stated, it's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also think of it like Computer code, it moves through the tasks given in set parameters until a new set of parameters are imposed (in this case the unit upgrade) then it will move through the tasks again under these new parameters.

Actually, he DOESN'T get a new set of gear, he has the EXACT same starting war gear list as the Scout, no difference. But you tell me that, even though it's CLEARLY an upgrade, he CAN'T take any of the scout options, but several of the options that actually make the WGPL useful aren't available because of the Scout-based war gear.

You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

Usefulness and logic don't help you outside what's written.IF we are using logic and reason, tell me how a dinky sniper rifle and a small waist high cloak is going to help an 8ft Power Armoured warrior - to bring up Terminator a again, it's why they can only take Combie Weapons, Storm Bolsters, Assault Cannons, Lightning Claws, TH/SS, and Heavy Flamers, it's all that will fit in their hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and, even good Scout snipers don't use snipers sometimes... Exhibit A) Torias Telion.

Zarius wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Also, I don't think even Kriswal will argue that you can take Scout options as a WGPL...
The fact that you think that makes a WGPL less useful has no bearing on the rules...

Actually.. He was arguing EXACTLY that, on the basis that a unit wouldn't LOOSE his gear just because he upgrades.

I'm certainly not arguing that you can take Wolf Scout only options as a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Just wanted to point that out and make it very clear.

I'm arguing the following. Feel free to counter the points however you want.

1. Army List Entries provide us with a STARTING Unit Composition and a STARTING set of wargear for each model in the unit.

2. Army List Entries provide us with a list of options that we are told we can take for the unit and/or the models in the unit.

3. There is no rule requiring that we select the above options in any particular order. Top to bottom is an English language reading convention, but there is no actual requirement to select options from top to bottom. This is very similar to how restaurant menus work. The menus are printed in English, but there is no inherent requirement built into the English language that you must order dessert last.

4. Once an option has been selected that grants additional or different wargear beyond the STARTING wargear to a specific model and due to the permissive nature of the game, that model can be considered to have that piece of wargear unless some rule or other interaction specifically says otherwise.

5. There is no rule telling us that upgrading a model from one name and profile to another name and profile removes previously selected wargear options. I.e., there is nothing in the rules telling us to 'reset' the model back to the STARTING wargear of the new profile.

So, in the specific example of taking a Wolf Scout unit...

1. I select the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry from Codex: Space Wolves. Based on the listed Unit Composition, the starting number and type of models in the unit will be five Wolf Scouts. The listed Wargear tells us, among other things, that each Wolf Scout has Scout Armour and a Boltgun.

2. Two of the options list are "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and "Any Wolf Scout may replace his Boltgun with a Sniper Rifle".

3. Given that there is no rules requirement to take the options in order, I first decide to use the Sniper Rifle upgrade to replace the five Wolf Scouts' Boltguns with Sniper Rifles. I have taken a Wolf Scout only upgrade on Wolf Scouts. I subsequently use the option to upgrade one of these Wolf Scouts to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

4. The newly upgraded WGPL loses his Scout Armour as that is explicitly called out as being for "Wolf Scouts only" on the datasheet. Note that no other Wargear is listed as Wolf Scouts only. He also, presumably speaking, gains Power Armour as that is specifically called out as "Wolf Guard Pack Leader only". No other changes are made. The Sniper Rifle that the model having been upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is currently holding is specifically NOT called out as being for Wolf Scouts only. Ergo, it is not.

For this to NOT work, you need to demonstrate, via rules citations, one of two things. You can either demonstrate that options must be taking in order, in which case the Sniper Rifle option is only available after the WGPL option. Otherwise, you can demonstrate that when a model is upgraded to a new name and profile, all of that model's wargear is removed and 'reset' to the starting wargear for the new profile. I'm unable to find rules evidence for either of these two scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Ridiculous logic is ridiculous. A VERY large number of options on datasheets can't be represented with what is provided in a single box. Many upgrades require the combination of multiple boxes or conversions.

Aha, quote 'pick n mixing', what you do in a losing argument.

If you read the rest of the post you'd know why I said this.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

I can't model a Tactical Marine with a Multimelta from what comes in the box, it is still an option, though.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

I am curious on this one, can you name what? The only cases I can think of are cases where there is no "Sergeant" in the unit, but only a "Veteran Sergeant", i.e. Veteran Squads and Relic Blades. But that's not exactly the same thing as we are discussing.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.

I would definitely be looking at this route. We do not have permission to carry over Wargear from before the upgrade to the new model profile. Of course, we do not have instructions to drop the Wargear, either.

Charistoph wrote:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
You're using logistics and Warhammer... moreover 40k... moreover Space Wolves?

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

I can't model a Tactical Marine with a Multimelta from what comes in the box, it is still an option, though.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Same reason why there are some things a Vet Sergeant can take but there are others a Normal Sergeant cannot take.

I am curious on this one, can you name what? The only cases I can think of are cases where there is no "Sergeant" in the unit, but only a "Veteran Sergeant", i.e. Veteran Squads and Relic Blades. But that's not exactly the same thing as we are discussing.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Surely you also reset the wargear of an upgraded model, take away any points spent on it, then start on where it says
"Wolf Scout Pack Leader may take X,Y,Z for A points"
Follow it downward in chronological order.

I would definitely be looking at this route. We do not have permission to carry over Wargear from before the upgrade to the new model profile. Of course, we do not have instructions to drop the Wargear, either.

My post was poorly ordered.

The post I was responding to tried to use 'sense and logic in 40k', so I played their game using their logic, proving it won't work using their logic.

Relic Blades are one thing, but I don't have my codex with me at the moment.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:

Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

*looks in his Wolf Scout box* Then I guess I can't give ANY of my scouts a sniper rifle or a cloak by that logic, because I'm not seeing any of either one of those in here, much less enough to outfit a full minimum unit company of scouts... I actually don't see anything but the basic bolt pistol, either, so I guess if I want to use a plasma pistol, I have to magically pull it out of my rear end if I want them to have it, by your logic of "can't use anything but what's in the box." Umm... No Wolf Claws, which is an option for both the WGPL and one other unit. Hell *looks at the box* It's got five units, so I guess I can't use a full ten man company, either, by that logic, since I can only use what's in the box. All I see here is various model options for hands, feet, etc, a selection of identical bodies, head with and without helmets, bolt pistols, bolters, grenades... Yeah, no 'sniper rifles' or even 'stalker-patterned bolters' at all. Guess my entire unit has to be basic scouts by the "what's in the box" logic.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm arguing the following. Feel free to counter the points however you want.

1. Army List Entries provide us with a STARTING Unit Composition and a STARTING set of wargear for each model in the unit.
2. Army List Entries provide us with a list of options that we are told we can take for the unit and/or the models in the unit.
3. There is no rule requiring that we select the above options in any particular order. Top to bottom is an English language reading convention, but there is no actual requirement to select options from top to bottom. This is very similar to how restaurant menus work. The menus are printed in English, but there is no inherent requirement built into the English language that you must order dessert last.
Yep, there is no information that we must go downward.
4. Once an option has been selected that grants additional or different wargear beyond the STARTING wargear to a specific model and due to the permissive nature of the game, that model can be considered to have that piece of wargear unless some rule or other interaction specifically says otherwise.

Yep. Agreed so far. There is no information that we have to go downward when choosing options.

 Kriswall wrote:
5. There is no rule telling us that upgrading a model from one name and profile to another name and profile removes previously selected wargear options. I.e., there is nothing in the rules telling us to 'reset' the model back to the STARTING wargear of the new profile.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
Doesn't that mean that the BRB considers them separate entries? It just didn't separate them. They are two separate entries. The Wolf Scout profile is not being 'translated' into a WGPL profile. The model is not being 'reset'. It is being replaced by the profile of a WGPL because they are separate entries. I don't see how you can understand the "but do not have a separate entry" to mean anything else. Please explain your reasoning.

 Kriswall wrote:
So, in the specific example of taking a Wolf Scout unit...

1. I select the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry from Codex: Space Wolves. Based on the listed Unit Composition, the starting number and type of models in the unit will be five Wolf Scouts. The listed Wargear tells us, among other things, that each Wolf Scout has Scout Armour and a Boltgun.

Yep

 Kriswall wrote:
2. Two of the options list are "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" and "Any Wolf Scout may replace his Boltgun with a Sniper Rifle".

3. Given that there is no rules requirement to take the options in order, I first decide to use the Sniper Rifle upgrade to replace the five Wolf Scouts' Boltguns with Sniper Rifles. I have taken a Wolf Scout only upgrade on Wolf Scouts. I subsequently use the option to upgrade one of these Wolf Scouts to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

4. The newly upgraded WGPL loses his Scout Armour as that is explicitly called out as being for "Wolf Scouts only" on the datasheet. Note that no other Wargear is listed as Wolf Scouts only. He also, presumably speaking, gains Power Armour as that is specifically called out as "Wolf Guard Pack Leader only". No other changes are made. The Sniper Rifle that the model having been upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is currently holding is specifically NOT called out as being for Wolf Scouts only. Ergo, it is not.

Don't ignore "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". Like I said before, the Wolf Scout isn't "losing" anything. It is being replaced by the profile of WGPL.
So you can consider the Wolf Scout datasheet to have the profiles of a Wolf Scout and a WGPL. This is shown in how they separated the Wolf Scout profile and the WGPL profile in the datasheet. They have Wolf Scout specific gear/special rules in parentheses. They have the WGPL specific gear in parentheses. And all communal wargear/special rules without parentheses. And the options for each are clearly differentiated. They are clearly two separate entries.

 Kriswall wrote:
For this to NOT work, you need to demonstrate, via rules citations, one of two things. You can either demonstrate that options must be taking in order, in which case the Sniper Rifle option is only available after the WGPL option. Otherwise, you can demonstrate that when a model is upgraded to a new name and profile, all of that model's wargear is removed and 'reset' to the starting wargear for the new profile. I'm unable to find rules evidence for either of these two scenarios.

There is one that you haven't addressed at all in multiple posts.
Please explain what you understand "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry." to mean.
In the Wolf Scouts datasheet. There is the profiles for Wolf Scouts and WGPL's. They are separate profile entries that the BRB didn't separate.
You will not find anything that says to 'reset' the Wolf Scout because it is no being 'reset'. They are entirely separate profiles with it's own wargear/special rules/options.

You can't pick and choose with a rule like this. If you take the stance that the Wolf Scout is 'transformed' to a WGPL, then you have to logically take the stance that the Wolf Scout's characteristic profile (WS, BS, Armor Sace, etc.) is also changed in this manner. That the Wolf Scout would get +1 to it's existing Attacks and -1 to it's armor save. That argument falls apart at "but do not have a separate entry". This clearly tells us that it is not 'translated' in that way but entered with a separate entry.

 Kriswall wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Can you even model the WGPL with a Sniper and camo cloak using only what's in the Wolf Scout box? Nope.

You can't. So you can't give it to him.

Ridiculous logic is ridiculous. A VERY large number of options on datasheets can't be represented with what is provided in a single box. Many upgrades require the combination of multiple boxes or conversions.

So those saying yes are OK with Terminator Captains riding bikes?

"They have their own profile, but do not have a seperate entry."

...

I interpret this as meaning that a model like a WGPL will have it's own profile, separate and distinct from the Wolf Scout profile, but that I should not expect to find a Wolf Guard Pack Leader Army List Entry in Codex: Space Wolves.

Keep in mind that the profile, as defined in the datasheets explanation page of Codex: Space Wolves, is specifically referring only to the line with the model's name, weapon skill, ballistic skill, etc. It's #6 on the datasheet page... "Unit Profile: This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include."

I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
So those saying yes are OK with Terminator Captains riding bikes?

Of course not. Per Codex: Space Marines we should "Note that these pieces of wargear [referring to the Bike and Terminator Armour] are mutually exclusive." We're told explicitly and unambiguously that a given model can't have both a Bike and Terminator Armour. That's what mutually exclusive means. There is no such wording in Codex: Space Wolves telling us that a WGPL can't ever have a Sniper Rifle.

 Kriswall wrote:
"They have their own profile, but do not have a seperate entry."

...

I interpret this as meaning that a model like a WGPL will have it's own profile, separate and distinct from the Wolf Scout profile, but that I should not expect to find a Wolf Guard Pack Leader Army List Entry in Codex: Space Wolves.

Keep in mind that the profile, as defined in the datasheets explanation page of Codex: Space Wolves, is specifically referring only to the line with the model's name, weapon skill, ballistic skill, etc. It's #6 on the datasheet page... "Unit Profile: This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include."

I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.

Ok. So you agree that they are separate. The Wolf Scouts will use the Wolf Scout profile. And the WGPL will use the WGPL profile.
The Wolf Scouts will source the Wolf Scout profile when determining starting gear, etc. And the WGPL will source the WGPL profile when detemining starting gear, etc.
By saying they are separate, how can you say that the WGPL was ever a Wolf Scout? They do not have any correlation besides the fact that they are in the same unit...
The Wolf Scout is never 'translated' to become the WGPL. The WGPL sources the WGPL profile. The WGPL does not source the Wolf Scout profile + transformation (+1A, -1 Armor Save, take away scout armor, give power armor, take away special rules, etc). We know this because the BRB tells us they are separate entries with their own profiles.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm also not contesting this. WGPLs obviously have a different profile. They also have a different set of starting wargear... which is sort of irrelevant, as per the army list entry's unit composition, the unit will never start with a WGPL and per the options can never add a new model who is a WGPL.

And how can you say that the Unit Composition never changes still? It says that the sections shows the composition before upgades have been taken. After upgrades are taken, the composition changes...
Not to mention the fact that you can add more Wolf Scouts to the unit. Thereby changing the composition again...

Rasko wrote:

Ok. So you agree that they are separate. The Wolf Scouts will use the Wolf Scout profile. And the WGPL will use the WGPL profile.
The Wolf Scouts will source the Wolf Scout profile when determining starting gear, etc. And the WGPL will source the WGPL profile when detemining starting gear, etc.
By saying they are separate, how can you say that the WGPL was ever a Wolf Scout? They do not have any correlation besides the fact that they are in the same unit...
The Wolf Scout is never 'translated' to become the WGPL. The WGPL sources the WGPL profile. The WGPL does not source the Wolf Scout profile + transformation (+1A, -1 Armor Save, take away scout armor, give power armor, take away special rules, etc). We know this because the BRB tells us they are separate entries with their own profiles.

There seems to be a disparity, at least in some people's opinions between a "separate profile", versus a "separate entry". A unit whose stats have increased and whose title has altered is NOT, necessarily, a completely different unit. I see nothing in the rules that says that, if I promote/upgrade a unit, he LOOSES any options he had to begin with.

This being versus having a completely separate entry in the manual. There is NOTHING anywhere in the SW codex describing the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, other than units showing him as a promotion to other units in that squad. If he's a completely separate ENTRY, then logically I should be using the gear list for the Wolf Guard entries, since in EVERY other gear listing for the WGPL has gear alterations that make his gear listing identical to the WG. The scout listing seems to be more of a typo than anything else, if this is the logic we're going to use. If he's a completely separate 'entry', we should be using the same gear listing for the unit every time. Otherwise, if we're using a different gear listing for each instance, then frankly, he would be nothing but an upgrade to the base, except as SPECIFICALLY noted (such as the Grey hunters marking that certain gear is taken away).

Zarius wrote:
There seems to be a disparity, at least in some people's opinions between a "separate profile", versus a "separate entry". A unit whose stats have increased and whose title has altered is NOT, necessarily, a completely different unit. I see nothing in the rules that says that, if I promote/upgrade a unit, he LOOSES any options he had to begin with.

You have to get the idea of 'promoting' something out of your head. You aren't promoting anything. This isn't a military ladder of advancement. This is not IRL...
Like I said before, you aren't 'losing' anything when you upgrade to a WGPL. There is no transformation of existing profile.
To get a WGPL, you don't +1 to the existing attack of a Wolf Scout, you don't -1 to it's existing armor save. You are never taking the Wolf Scout and transforming/promoting him to match the profile of a WGPL.
We know this because of "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry.". The BRB tells us that while it didn't separate them, we should consider them separate entries.
That quote directly contradicts the 'promotion' idea.
Unit Compositions do change. The WGPL will be a new entry to the unit with it's own wargear, special rules, etc. These things are all pointed out in the respective unit datasheet.

Zarius wrote:
This being versus having a completely separate entry in the manual. There is NOTHING anywhere in the SW codex describing the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, other than units showing him as a promotion to other units in that squad. If he's a completely separate ENTRY, then logically I should be using the gear list for the Wolf Guard entries, since in EVERY other gear listing for the WGPL has gear alterations that make his gear listing identical to the WG. The scout listing seems to be more of a typo than anything else, if this is the logic we're going to use.

There does not need to be an entry for WGPL in the codex because the codex has included one in every applicable unit.
I do not understand how you can then go from here to say that "logically" WGPL = Wolf Guard. There is nothing "logical" about that leap...
Not one person in this thread, including Kriswall, will argue that WGPL = Wolf Guard.
The time that it could have been a typo has long since passed. When the SW codex was first released, it did so with many mistakes (for example, the WGPL for Blood Claws had rage until the FAQ). These mistakes have all been FAQ'd. The WGPL for Scouts did not change.

Zarius wrote:
If he's a completely separate 'entry', we should be using the same gear listing for the unit every time. Otherwise, if we're using a different gear listing for each instance, then frankly, he would be nothing but an upgrade to the base, except as SPECIFICALLY noted (such as the Grey hunters marking that certain gear is taken away).

Like I said before, every unit has their own version of the WGPL. These WGPL's have their own upgrades. You can't say that all WGPL are the same.
Look at the WGPL for Grey Hunters. They can take Terminator Armor.
Look at the Wolf Guard. They can't take Terminator Armor.
Grey Hunter's WGPL =/= Wolf Scout's WGPL =/= Blood Claw's WGPL =/= Wolf Guard.

We should probably discuss some core game terms here.

Unit Composition is defined as the starting number of models and their types for any given army list entry. This starting number is written in stone and never changes for any given army list entry. Now, if you actually select a unit and add models to it, that particular unit's composition will obviously change from the army list entry's defined Unit Composition.

Profile refers to the line on an army list entry that shows a model's name, WS, BS, etc. The Wargear section is an entirely different part of the army list entry. It's connected in that it tells us what wargear any given model is equipped with, assuming no options have been selected. When we are instructed to use the WGPL profile, we're being told to use that WS, BS, etc... and not explicitly to replace or reverse any previously selected options.

Lastly, the change from Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader is absolutely a "promotion of sorts" in that it improves the model's grade from that of Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader. This is literally what the word "upgrade" means. You don't even have to look it up. An upgrade process ups the grade of something. It is absolutely transformative. We have an existing model that we can point at. It is a Wolf Scout. We choose an option. That same model is now a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

 Kriswall wrote:
We should probably discuss some core game terms here.

Unit Composition is defined as the starting number of models and their types for any given army list entry. This starting number is written in stone and never changes for any given army list entry. Now, if you actually select a unit and add models to it, that particular unit's composition will obviously change from the army list entry's defined Unit Composition.

Profile refers to the line on an army list entry that shows a model's name, WS, BS, etc. The Wargear section is an entirely different part of the army list entry. It's connected in that it tells us what wargear any given model is equipped with, assuming no options have been selected. When we are instructed to use the WGPL profile, we're being told to use that WS, BS, etc... and not explicitly to replace or reverse any previously selected options.

Lastly, the change from Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader is absolutely a "promotion of sorts" in that it improves the model's grade from that of Wolf Scout to Wolf Scout Pack Leader. This is literally what the word "upgrade" means. You don't even have to look it up. An upgrade process ups the grade of something. It is absolutely transformative. We have an existing model that we can point at. It is a Wolf Scout. We choose an option. That same model is now a Wolf Scout Pack Leader.

"They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
This directly contradicts the 'transformation/promotion' theory. As you said, I agree the profile itself only refers to the characteristics. However, there is a second part to the quote. It says "but do not have a separate entry". This is important because it tells us to consider the WGPL a separate entry that hasn't been separated.
So what does a separate entry look like?
It would be

A WGPL does not "come" from a Wolf Scout. This is an entirely separate entry in the unit. If you choose to upgrade, the Unit Composition of Wolf Scouts would change to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.
You would refer to the Wolf Scouts entry to see starting gear, etc. And you would refer to the WGPL entry to see starting gear, etc.
Like Zarius, you are now using IRL terms of what upgrade means when it directly contradicts what the BRB tells us to do.
There is inherently two separate entries in the Wolf Scouts Datasheet. They just haven't been separated. They are not linked in any way besides the fact that they are both in the same unit. If you choose to upgrade one to a WGPL, you are choosing a separate entry that already exists in the Wolf Scouts Datasheet. There is no promotion/transformation of the existing Wolf Scout.

Look up upgrade in the dictionary. I genuinely don't think you know what it means. You have a model called Wolf Scout. Through a transformative process called "upgrade", that model is changed into a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. The model is not replaced. It is upgraded. It's grade improves.

I feel like you have a basic lack of understanding of some of the core terms here. It's unsurprising you don't understand my points.

You also keep confusing Unit Composition, which is a constant and unchanging data point on an Army List Entry with the composition of a particular unit youve chosen for an army list. Two different concepts.

 Kriswall wrote:
Look up upgrade in the dictionary. I genuinely don't think you know what it means. You have a model called Wolf Scout. Through a transformative process called "upgrade", that model is changed into a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. The model is not replaced. It is upgraded. It's grade improves.

I feel like you have a basic lack of understanding of some of the core terms here. It's unsurprising you don't understand my points.

It appears you lack a basic understanding of why dictionary definitions are frowned upon in this board. I'll show you,
This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something (such as a seat on an airplane or a room in a hotel) that is better than what you had originally

And this is precisely why this Board does not like using dictionary definitions as a counter argument.
Is it to make something existing better? Is it to get something new that is better than you originally had? Is it to get something more useful?
It could mean a transformative process if you consider upgrade to mean "-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements"
It could mean that you get something new altogether if you consider upgrade to mean "-to get something that is better than what you had originally"
Which is the right one? Have you actually bothered to look up the dictionary definition before telling me to? You would have known why that is a bad counter-argument if you did.

For Veterans/WGPL, the BRB says that "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry."
This implies that it is not a transformative process. Since it is not a transformative process, we can surmise that when the codex says upgrade, it means "-to get something that is better than what you had originally".
We know this because it tells us to consider them a separate entry that is not separated. Separated entries are not influenced by other entries. You can't "link" the Wolf Scout to the WGPL.

 Kriswall wrote:
You also keep confusing Unit Composition, which is a constant and unchanging data point on an Army List Entry with the composition of a particular unit youve chosen for an army list. Two different concepts.

You are the one confusing Unit Composition. This is exactly what it says.
"Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken."

The Unit Composition shows the basic unit before upgrades are taken.
After upgrades are taken, it is still the Unit Composition. They are not two different concepts.

You aren't actually upgrading the Wolf Scout model to a WGPL model as if it were a level-up promotion on the model. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.

You are upgrading the unit from one composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and a WGPL.

So you swap the Wolf Scout model and profile for a WGPL model and profile.

col_impact wrote:
You aren't actually upgrading the Wolf Scout model to a WGPL model as if it were a level-up promotion on the model. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons.

You are upgrading the unit from one composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and a WGPL.

So you swap the Wolf Scout model and profile for a WGPL model and profile.

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

I don't play Dungeons and Dragons. I have no idea how that system works. This also isn't Monopoly or Russian Roulette. Presumably different games have different rules. Let's focus on this game.

If it's a unit upgrade, why is it something that a single, specific model has to choose. It's a model upgrade. Not rocket science.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout..."

Sure looks like it's referring to an upgrade for a model and not for the unit.

You are upgrading one MODEL in a unit composed of 5 Wolf Scouts to a WGPL, thus resulting in a unit composed of 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL. At no point are you actually upgrading the unit. If the upgrade option read something like "the unit may be upgraded to contain a WGPL... XXpts", then I would agree. It doesn't. It's clearly an upgrade for a specific model. You need to be more precise.

So, then, by your diffinition of "Unit composition", I can NEVER take a WGPL, because you say it "will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken." which indicates that I CAN'T take upgrades,by the very nature of the term.

WGPL is CLEARLY classified AS an UPGRADE, because that's what the rule says. Literally, one scout may UPGRADE to a WGPL. The word is inherent. And, as Kriswall says, the DEFINITION of the word upgrade, as it is not specifically defined in the rules manuals anywhere, is that the unit IS changing type. If you could provide an argument here that wasn't "It's not an upgrade", even though the bloody manual SAYS it's EXCATLY that, I'd be happy to accept it. But, at least thus far, your ONLY argument against a WGPL taking a scout rifle is to use definitions that directly contradict the inherent meanings of what is written.

"If it's not written down, it's not legal." Well, that indicates the other way around... We SHOULD Be following what is written down, right? Well, what is written down is that one of my scouts WOULD, in fact, be transformed into a WGPL through the upgrade process. THAT is what is actually written down. So, Rasko, do you have any arguments that don't contradict themselves, or are we just arguing with a republican here?

Zarius wrote:
So, then, by your diffinition of "Unit composition", I can NEVER take a WGPL, because you say it "will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken." which indicates that I CAN'T take upgrades,by the very nature of the term.

WGPL is CLEARLY classified AS an UPGRADE, because that's what the rule says. Literally, one scout may UPGRADE to a WGPL. The word is inherent. And, as Kriswall says, the DEFINITION of the word upgrade, as it is not specifically defined in the rules manuals anywhere, is that the unit IS changing type. If you could provide an argument here that wasn't "It's not an upgrade", even though the bloody manual SAYS it's EXCATLY that, I'd be happy to accept it. But, at least thus far, your ONLY argument against a WGPL taking a scout rifle is to use definitions that directly contradict the inherent meanings of what is written.

"If it's not written down, it's not legal." Well, that indicates the other way around... We SHOULD Be following what is written down, right? Well, what is written down is that one of my scouts WOULD, in fact, be transformed into a WGPL through the upgrade process. THAT is what is actually written down. So, Rasko, do you have any arguments that don't contradict themselves, or are we just arguing with a republican here?

You can absolutely take upgrades. UNIT COMPOSITION gives you the starting state BEFORE any upgrades. If I decide to take a Wolf Scouts Unit in my army and add a couple of Wolf Scouts, give them some Wargear and upgrade one to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader... the UNIT COMPOSITION for the Wolf Scouts Army List Entry is STILL going to be 5 Wolf Scouts, because the game term "UNIT COMPOSITION" refers specifically to the starting state. The composition of the unit you've taken for your army list obviously changes during your selection process and go beyond the starting state, or "Army List Entry Unit Composition".

You dont purchase in an order you list is made simultaneously, so if you by a sniper for your wolf scout then upgrade him to a wolf pack leader, he no longer fit the perimeters for the sniper.

it not like you by all weapons first then buying all upgrades first, followed by all transports, you buy the units and gear and all at the same time.

THERE IS NO INT. FOR LIST BUILDING!!!

 btgrimaldus wrote:
You dont purchase in an order you list is made simultaneously, so if you by a sniper for your wolf scout then upgrade him to a wolf pack leader, he no longer fit the perimeters for the sniper.

it not like you by all weapons first then buying all upgrades first, followed by all transports, you buy the units and gear and all at the same time.

THERE IS NO INT. FOR LIST BUILDING!!!

There literally has to be, or else some options can never be taken.

One common example is that Biker Marines are allowed to take Special Weapons, but must first swap Bolt Pistol for Chainsword (or is it Chainsword for Bolt Pistol?) before they have the necessary Wargear to make the second swap. Also, Power Armoured models that have the option for Terminator Armour must first take the Terminator option before being able to 'unlock' options that are only available to Terminator armoured models.

Again, choosing options MUST be sequential. If all options are taken simultaneously, the entire process falls apart and many options can never be taken.

No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

If we build a list with your logic, a CSM can purchase a melta and then be upgraded to a champion and have a melta champ.


Wait lets do it this way, I'm going to purchase/upgrade a CSM champion give him a powerfist then then down grade him so he may keep the power fist and then upgrade a different CSM to do the same thing. Hey i can have a unit of CSM powerfists.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

OK, so by strict adherence to your own logic, can you explain how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment he takes the upgrade, the model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. Is there something magical that makes character upgrades work, or is this problem just a result of an inconsistent and unsustainable interpretation of how the rules work?

 btgrimaldus wrote:
No guy you thinking literally linear. so lets some this up for you to understand, if a wolf scout can have a sniper and then you upgrade him to a wolf leader, he no longer is a wolf scout (KEY WORD) but a wolf pack leader (KEY WORD) in a wolf scout squad. He would no longer meet the perimeters for the sniper if we are going to entertain your logic, you would then have a illegal item purchase and would have to drop it. If however it said any model my take a sniper then by all means go ahead and purchase him the sniper.

If we build a list with your logic, a CSM can purchase a melta and then be upgraded to a champion and have a melta champ.


Wait lets do it this way, I'm going to purchase/upgrade a CSM champion give him a powerfist then then down grade him so he may keep the power fist and then upgrade a different CSM to do the same thing. Hey i can have a unit of CSM powerfists.

Except that there's no rules to purchase a downgrade. There''s literally no rule for that. However, your logic with the Chaos Champion with a melta because it was there before his upgrade IS perfectly sound. Again, he had that option chosen prior to the upgrade. I see no issues. This seems perfectly valid.

On the other hand, if all upgrades are simultaneous, rather than chosen, then how would you first take the WGPL upgrade and THEN take the Meltabomb option for him, that's only available to a WGPL? Going with the computer science allegory, the check for meltabombs on the 'simultaneous upgrades' theory would fail every time because the entry for "is WGPL?" doesn't change from no to yes until AFTER the checks are made. This means that, when the Meltabomb check is done, the "is WGPL" is still 'no' until AFTER both have been checked. You want to use computer logic, that's what the computer logic analogy gets you. Both are checked at the SAME time, and don't change until AFTER the check is completed. No rechecks afterwards.

Im not even bothering with this bend the rules as you wish people, its is not worth the time.

The rules also don't SAY that you REPLACE the unit. Nothing says "may replace one scout unit with a WGPL." I'm not trying to bend the rules here, I'm trying to find out what the ACTUAL rules ACTUALLY say, or it there ISN'T actually true specification. From everything I'm hearing, there ISN'T actually true specification, and I'll need to check with the group I'll be playing with to get a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, frankly, I like playing devil's advocate. It's rather entertaining when you have to spend 9 hours a day at a computer.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zarius wrote:
The rules also don't SAY that you REPLACE the unit. Nothing says "may replace one scout unit with a WGPL." I'm not trying to bend the rules here, I'm trying to find out what the ACTUAL rules ACTUALLY say, or it there ISN'T actually true specification. From everything I'm hearing, there ISN'T actually true specification, and I'll need to check with the group I'll be playing with to get a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, frankly, I like playing devil's advocate. It's rather entertaining when you have to spend 9 hours a day at a computer.

Amen, brother. I also sit in front of a computer all day. Bickering with internet trolls who can barely spell or reason is endlessly entertaining.

I think, ultimately, the rules don't actually have enough to say. There is a grey area. One of two things is happening.

Thing #1 - Options can be selected in any order. If this is the case, you can take a Sniper Rifle and then upgrade to WGPL, which would result in a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle.

Thing #2 - Options must be selected in top to bottom order. If this is the case, the whole argument is moot as the Wolf Scout would have already upgraded to a WGPL before being given the option to take a Sniper Rifle. You would not be able to make a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle.

The problem is that the rules give us no guidance. They simply give us an unordered list (i.e. a bulleted list instead of a numbered list) and tell us that we can choose from these options. My inclination is that the authors probably intend for us to pick from top to bottom, but have never said this explicitly. The rules should allow either option.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

Care to explain? You're being incredibly vague. How specifically am I not following the rules.

Is it when I have one of my Wolf Scout models take the upgrade allowing a Wolf Scout to swap his Bolter for a Sniper Rifle?

Or is it when I have one of my Wolf Scout models take the upgrade allowing a Wolf Scout to upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader?

col_impact wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

11. Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Did you have a point? Just curious. I don't think anyone is contesting what an option is.

You are not following the rules for what an Option is.

I add sniper rifle for one point, loosing my Boltgun. I add cloak for two points. Then I add upgrade to WGPL for 10 points. Then I add meltabombs for five points. Then I add Plasma pistol (or thunder hammer, yummy), sacrificing my Boltpistol for 10 (or 30) points. This is a series of OPTIONS, which I have paid for. You've only quoted the rule that let's me do this, not any rules that state that this is an option list/order I can't do.

When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

col_impact wrote:
When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

Please cite rules supporting your reasoning for this. The text of the option says that one "Wolf Scout may be upgraded". It sure looks like it's the Wolf Scout model that's being upgraded. It does not say that the unit is being upgraded. The rules don't support your statement.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

Please cite rules supporting your reasoning for this. The text of the option says that one "Wolf Scout may be upgraded". It sure looks like it's the Wolf Scout model that's being upgraded. It does not say that the unit is being upgraded. The rules don't support your statement.

Are you using the Options? If you are then you are obeying this rule . . .



It does not say this



When the Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WPGL, it's the unit that is upgraded.

You are not adding upgrades to the model. You are adding upgrades to the unit.

And the unit already has a scout rifle when upgraded. The SCOUT is upgraded to WGPL, already having a scout. Can you cite any rules that state that an upgrade resets the model to factory default?

Zarius wrote:
And the unit already has a scout rifle when upgraded. The SCOUT is upgraded to WGPL, already having a scout. Can you cite any rules that state that an upgrade resets the model to factory default?

The unit no longer has that scout. The unit now has a WGPL.

Which was UPGRADE from a scout, already having a sniper rifle.

Zarius wrote:
Which was UPGRADE from a scout, already having a sniper rifle.

The unit no longer has that scout with the sniper rifle. The unit has been upgraded to a WGPL.

Then the answer is "No, I don't have a rule that says that the unit can not keep previously taken upgrades, but there also is not one that specifically allows it. You should discuss this with your group and see what they think, because I'm just going to keep badgering you until I either get bored or you agree with me out of frustration."

Badger all you want, the rules are on my side.

No, they aren't. The rules are ambivalent. The rules DON'T specify. the words phrases that you're using DON'T mean what you think they do. Nor do they mean what I WANT them to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I was referring to the fact that YOU keep using things that don't mean what you say they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I.E. you're the one that's going to badger.

The rules say this.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The rules do not say this.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the models if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Col has tidied up the argument Rasko was making very simply. You haven't actually addressed it...

As Rasko said, "upgrade", can mean different things. It doesn't only mean promote. It can also mean replace.
There is multiple evidence that points towards replace. While there is no evidence that points towards promote. Not a single one. It isn't even a gray area.
So you have to go with how the Codex uses "upgrade".

Kriswall, is it legal for me to have a BA Captain in Terminator Armour riding a SM Bike?

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, is it legal for me to have a BA Captain in Terminator Armour riding a SM Bike?

only if you buy the bike first.... LOL

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, isn't there a rule SPECIFICALLY regarding that, saying no, under the general Wargear listing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there isn't, then i'm good with it as long as the bike is purchased first.

Zarius wrote:
Actually, unless I'm mistaken, isn't there a rule SPECIFICALLY regarding that, saying no, under the general Wargear listing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there isn't, then i'm good with it as long as the bike is purchased first.

At least you can poke fun at yourself lol.

Actually, Terminator Armour captain riding a bike is a legitimate question. It is not a troll comment.

The only restriction that prevents Terminator Armour wearers from taking Space Marine Bikes is stated for the Bikes.

By Zarius and Kriswall's logic, if you take the Space Marine Bike upgrade first, you would be able to buy Terminator Armour after.
Therefore, bypassing the only restriction and allowing Terminator Armour Bikers.

-This is for people that think it was a troll comment... It is a legimiate question. Just thought I'd clear it up a tiny bit.

HondaDaBest wrote:
Actually, Terminator Armour captain riding a bike is a legitimate question. It is not a troll comment.

The only restriction that prevents Terminator Armour wearers from taking Space Marine Bikes is stated for the Bikes.

By Zarius and Kriswall's logic, if you take the Space Marine Bike upgrade first, you would be able to buy Terminator Armour after.
Therefore, bypassing the only restriction and allowing Terminator Armour Bikers.

-This is for people that think it was a troll comment... It is a legimiate question. Just thought I'd clear it up a tiny bit.

Like I said, as long as there isn't a specific rule forbidding it, I'm cool. And, even if there is a legit rule against it, it IS a valid question when you bring the logic into play. My reasoning is this:

The reason for that prohibitive rule is purely mechanical, on the part of the bike. The bike (and jetpacks, and Thunderwolf Mounts) are PHYSICALLY not strong enough to do the job. A suit of scout armor is just a suit of power armor with lighter plating, they don't even have a specific model for scout armor that I've found. Terminator armor, on the other hand, is clearly MASSIVE (relatively speaking).

My OFFICIAL stance is that yes, even if there is a rule that you can't take it once you have termie armor, you COULD take it beforehand, but it wouldn't work. Meaning, you could take it, and therefore you could work it into your model, but you'd move at normal rate, not at bike rate, and you wouldn't count as Calvary. Depending on how hard someone tried to argue it, I might even say that you'd move slower because you'd be dragging the useless lump. I'd also let you use it as an improvised (WS -2) Thunder Hammer either way because, let's be honest, is a guy in termie armor slaps you with a bike, you ARE going down, no questions asked, and the suit IS designed to use much larger weapons, like the Great Wolf Claw, so using it as an improvised club (hammer) would be well within the physical capabilities of the armor.

Where as there's nothing to counter-indicate that a snipe-rifle WOULDN'T work with standard power armor. More over, ALL of the other gun gear (pasma pistols, melta guns, yatta yatta) are universal to standard-armor units, such as scouts and WGPLs, so there's no reason to assume it wouldn't work either.

Guys, don't forget that Kriswall wrote

 Kriswall wrote:
Of course not. Per Codex: Space Marines we should "Note that these pieces of wargear [referring to the Bike and Terminator Armour] are mutually exclusive." We're told explicitly and unambiguously that a given model can't have both a Bike and Terminator Armour. That's what mutually exclusive means. There is no such wording in Codex: Space Wolves telling us that a WGPL can't ever have a Sniper Rifle.

That was his answer to the question.
However, he is taking things out of context with that quote. The full one is here
•1 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour. Note that these pieces of wargear are mutually exclusive. For example, a Librarian riding a Space Marine bike may not also take a jump pack.
It says that the pieces of wargear are mutually exclusive. It is not referring to the Terminator Armour like he says. It is referring to all the wargear that is marked with the 1.
It tells us that any wargear that is marked with the 1, can't be taken by Terminator Armour.
It tells us that any wargear that is marked with the 1, is mutually exclusive.
Context is the most important thing...

Which by their logic, still allows Terminator Armour Bikers by following the "promotion" theory... But I wanted to point out why it is the case, because otherwise, he will just repeats his answer...

But yes, I agree that

Is the simplist way to make our point.

col_impact wrote:
Badger all you want, the rules are on my side.

If the rules are on your side, then it should be no issue citing the rule saying that when a specific model is upgraded to a different profile, that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost. You have yet to cite such a rule, so I assume that you don't actually have one.

And while I realize that the Datasheet says that options provide upgrades to units, the actual option itself says that the model is upgraded. At the very least, advanced trumps general. In this instance the option most certainly is upgrading a model.

Rasko, you can keep citing that all you want, but in all actuality, your statement only actually serves to BACK us, not contradicts us. Saying that the UNIT may upgrade says that it's the same UNIT, with a different profile due to upgrades from training/gear, etc. Because that's what the increased stats in the other profile represent: A WGPL gets extra armor because, with the unit's promotion to Squad Commander, he was given a new suit of Power Armour instead of Scout Armour. His extra actions indicate that he's received better training to give him more speed of action. But nothing indicates that UPGRADING the unit would make him a whole different unit/model all together.

Zarius wrote:
Rasko, you can keep citing that all you want, but in all actuality, your statement only actually serves to BACK us, not contradicts us. Saying that the UNIT may upgrade says that it's the same UNIT, with a different profile due to upgrades from training/gear, etc.

What?
I literally quoted you what upgrade means. Upgrade means replace in the Codex...

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

Zarius wrote:
Because that's what the increased stats in the other profile represent: A WGPL gets extra armor because, with the unit's promotion to Squad Commander, he was given a new suit of Power Armour instead of Scout Armour. His extra actions indicate that he's received better training to give him more speed of action. But nothing indicates that UPGRADING the unit would make him a whole different unit/model all together.

I can't tell if you are trolling me. Have you actually read the arguments...
You don't address the arguments themselves...

No... it doesn't... It literally doesn't say that "upgrade" means "replace." Nowhere does it say "One scout may upgrade to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, replacing the scout model with the Wolf Guard Pack Leader model."

Nowhere does the SW codex or the BRB state that and upgrade to a unit replaces the model. Power armor isn't even a separate configuration in the model options.

You're literally making that up.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Badger all you want, the rules are on my side.

If the rules are on your side, then it should be no issue citing the rule saying that when a specific model is upgraded to a different profile, that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost. You have yet to cite such a rule, so I assume that you don't actually have one.

And while I realize that the Datasheet says that options provide upgrades to units, the actual option itself says that the model is upgraded. At the very least, advanced trumps general. In this instance the option most certainly is upgrading a model.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

Ah, Zarius, I hope you understand how ironic this is. I was trying to make a point. Listen to this now...

Where does it say "upgrade" means "make something existing better"? Nowhere does it say "One scout may upgrade to a WGPL, making the scout model better to become a WGPL."

Nowhere does the SW codex or the BRB state that upgrade means promote the model.

You're literally making that up.

----------------------
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
This clearly means that a new entry has been added to a unit. It clearly contradicts the promotion theory. It is pretty hard to misunderstand that. You guys haven't addressed this at all.

That's.. exactly what the word upgrade means... To alter to an improved state...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And actually, ADDING the upgrade to a unit IS the upgrade/promotion theory. That's LITERALLY what it is. We didn't address it because your lack of understanding basic English isn't a problem we can address.

You are selectively picking and choosing whatever you like...

I literally quoted you the definition of "upgrade"...
And you "picked" the one that perfectly matches your case.
And ignored the one that perfectly matches mine.
Are you deliberately acting like you didn't do this? You must be...

Which is exactly why dictionary definitions are frowned upon...

You take a SCOUT, you ADD an upgrade to WGPL. That's a PROMOTION. If you take a sailor, and you add a single chevron with a crow over it to his uniform, you have UPGRADED him/her to a petty officer 3rd class. That is a promotion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there isn't a better definition available as to exactly what the terminology means, then you have to go with the dictionary definition as default. YOU keep saying exactly what we're saying, then calling it a statement that contradicts us.

Zarius wrote:
That's.. exactly what the word upgrade means... To alter to an improved state...

Do you have a rules quote on this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zarius wrote:

If there isn't a better definition available as to exactly what the terminology means, then you have to go with the dictionary definition as default. YOU keep saying exactly what we're saying, then calling it a statement that contradicts us.

Incorrect. You use the word in the way the BRB uses the word.

Col, since there ISN'T a specific rules quote on the precise definition of the word "upgrade" I'm using the definition in the DICTIONARY, because that's the only one AVAILABLE. There literally is NO definition in any of the manuals that states that the word "upgrade" doesn't use the same definition as the common English language. Since there ISN'T a rule on that, the only thing we CAN do is crack open a dictionary. Unless you can provide a rule that would override the common English.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, if you're going to say that THAT isn't how it works, then define the word "inch." Because there's no specific rule that states that the word inch used in the book means a common Imperial inch on an American ruler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could, instead, call my boot an inch and use my boot as measurements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
<.< That would make for an interesting battle system. Each unit moves 6 boots, where a boot is literally the boot on your foot.

Zarius wrote:
Col, since there ISN'T a specific rules quote on the precise definition of the word "upgrade" I'm using the definition in the DICTIONARY, because that's the only one AVAILABLE. There literally is NO definition in any of the manuals that states that the word "upgrade" doesn't use the same definition as the common English language. Since there ISN'T a rule on that, the only thing we CAN do is crack open a dictionary. Unless you can provide a rule that would override the common English.

Sure. Per the dictionary, upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally".

When I go to rent a car I often get a chance to upgrade my economy rental car to a luxury rental car for the same price.

Common English.

Zarius wrote:
If there isn't a better definition available as to exactly what the terminology means, then you have to go with the dictionary definition as default. YOU keep saying exactly what we're saying, then calling it a statement that contradicts us.

Zarius wrote:
Col, since there ISN'T a specific rules quote on the precise definition of the word "upgrade" I'm using the definition in the DICTIONARY, because that's the only one AVAILABLE. There literally is NO definition in any of the manuals that states that the word "upgrade" doesn't use the same definition as the common English language. Since there ISN'T a rule on that, the only thing we CAN do is crack open a dictionary. Unless you can provide a rule that would override the common English.

You purposely ignore that there is more than one definition of upgrade...
Why are you doing this? I don't understand why you refuse to even acknowledge the existence of

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

No one can be certain on a large percentage of 40k rules.

Play however you want, however you and your opponents enjoy playing the most, and feth what everyone else thinks and says.

The hobby is too expensive, and life too short to allow your immersion and enjoyment of it to be dictated by strangers on the Internet.

Many of these threads are endless echo chambers, they never lead anywhere because the rules don't actually contain the explicit answer, regardless of how much people are certain that their particular interpretations and rules bits are the most relevant ones.

For me, 40k has been moving more and more into house rule territory since 7th dropped. It's just the way it is, there's always going to be differing opinion somehow, somewhere, on some ruling.

Because the dictionary lists the definitions by commonality. To prevent what YOU are doing, which is simply choosing the definition you want to choose, you default to the first, or most common, definition. As such, the correct definition here would be

-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements

I make my scout better by including the WPGL improvement. First definition, thus correct one UNLESS context indicates otherwise. In this instance, context COULD be either the first OR the third (or second, to be honest), because they ALL could make sense here, thus, the first is defaulted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No one can be certain on a large percentage of 40k rules.

Play however you want, however you and your opponents enjoy playing the most, and feth what everyone else thinks and says.

The hobby is too expensive, and life too short to allow your immersion and enjoyment of it to be dictated by strangers on the Internet.

Many of these threads are endless echo chambers, they never lead anywhere because the rules don't actually contain the explicit answer, regardless of how much people are certain that their particular interpretations and rules bits are the most relevant ones.

For me, 40k has been moving more and more into house rule territory since 7th dropped. It's just the way it is, there's always going to be differing opinion somehow, somewhere, on some ruling.

I'll be honest, that's what I decided to do hours ago. At this point, this is literally just entertainment for me at work. Nothing more.

Zarius wrote:
Because the dictionary lists the definitions by commonality. To prevent what YOU are doing, which is simply choosing the definition you want to choose, you default to the first, or most common, definition. As such, the correct definition here would be

-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements

I make my scout better by including the WPGL improvement. First definition, thus correct one UNLESS context indicates otherwise. In this instance, context COULD be either the first OR the third (or second, to be honest), because they ALL could make sense here, thus, the first is defaulted.

The rules explicitly tell us this . . .



So the third definition is the one the BRB is using.

The burden is on you to prove otherwise.

Options are unit upgrades, not model upgrades. The third definition is the one that works in the context of unit upgrades.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No one can be certain on a large percentage of 40k rules.

Play however you want, however you and your opponents enjoy playing the most, and feth what everyone else thinks and says.

The hobby is too expensive, and life too short to allow your immersion and enjoyment of it to be dictated by strangers on the Internet.

Many of these threads are endless echo chambers, they never lead anywhere because the rules don't actually contain the explicit answer, regardless of how much people are certain that their particular interpretations and rules bits are the most relevant ones.

For me, 40k has been moving more and more into house rule territory since 7th dropped. It's just the way it is, there's always going to be differing opinion somehow, somewhere, on some ruling.

I don't think there is anyone that will disagree with you. Play however you want, it doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't matter to anyone else.
This is a place to discuss rules though. So we discuss them in an attempt to get a better understanding of the rules.
You are right. There are tons of murky rules in the book. Ones that have no resolution and ones that are clearly ambiguous. This isn't one of those times.

WHERE does this say "replace." NOTHING in here says "replace." In lieu of you showing me where this says "replace" or where the rules show a synonymy between "replace" and "upgrade", quote something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rasko wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No one can be certain on a large percentage of 40k rules.

Play however you want, however you and your opponents enjoy playing the most, and feth what everyone else thinks and says.

The hobby is too expensive, and life too short to allow your immersion and enjoyment of it to be dictated by strangers on the Internet.

Many of these threads are endless echo chambers, they never lead anywhere because the rules don't actually contain the explicit answer, regardless of how much people are certain that their particular interpretations and rules bits are the most relevant ones.

For me, 40k has been moving more and more into house rule territory since 7th dropped. It's just the way it is, there's always going to be differing opinion somehow, somewhere, on some ruling.

I don't think there is anyone that will disagree with you. Play however you want, it doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't matter to anyone else.
This is a place to discuss rules though. So we discuss them in an attempt to get a better understanding of the rules.
You are right. There are tons of murky rules in the book. Ones that have no resolution and ones that are clearly ambiguous. This isn't one of those times.

I'll actually agree with you on this point, Rasko. I'm here to try to actually get an OFFICIAL definition, if one can be reached.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because the upgrade may be fore the unit, as a whole to change it from containing 10 scouts to 9 scouts and a WGPL, but the acutal upgrade it self is to ONE scout, thus one MODEL.

Zarius wrote:

Because the upgrade may be fore the unit, as a whole to change it from containing 10 scouts to 9 scouts and a WGPL, but the acutal upgrade it self is to ONE scout, thus one MODEL.

The rules tell us its a unit upgrade.

So the unit is getting 4 scouts and a WGPL instead of 5 scouts which is better than what it had originally.


You have to prove that it is a model upgrade rather than a unit upgrade when the rules directly contradict you.

You also have to prove that upgrade does not mean "to get something that is better than what you had originally" which 100% works with the rules as they are written.

Good luck. The rules and common English are against you.

I'm unfamiliar with Wolves so tell me...

Are there specific weapon/gear lists that are named in the options list that the guy can take from because that is the end all, be all for his gear.

I will clearly address your points, please address ours.

Zarius wrote:
WHERE does this say "replace." NOTHING in here says "replace." In lieu of you showing me where this says "replace" or where the rules show a synonymy between "replace" and "upgrade", quote something else.

Here is the proof that 'upgrade' means 'replace'.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
From this, we can see that when the Codex upgrades something, you 'add to the unit'. The key thing to note here is what does it "add" to. It adds to the unit. It does not add to the model.
This means that it is a unit change and not a model change. Therefore, it is not a "promotion" advancement.

You get a Unit Upgrade from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

From there we discern whether he could take gear like a scout sniper would.


Which would be pointless, he's in Power Armour, you mightaswell have the whole thing as scouts and then pour your points and frustration into another unit.

The option itself specifically says that ONE scout unit can take it. I would like it if you would explain to me HOW I would take the upgrade and apply it to a UNIT without applying it to a specific MODEL in that unit. I can't upgrade a scout by designating the WHOLE unit for the upgrade, because I still have to designate a specific model that receives the upgrade.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

Please don't imply that I'm a cheater. You don't know me and you've never played me. I might have the highest sportsmanship of anyone you've ever met. Let's keep this civil and not resort to name calling. It's the hallmark of a small mind.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
From there we discern whether he could take gear like a scout sniper would.


Which would be pointless, he's in Power Armour, you mightaswell have the whole thing as scouts and then pour your points and frustration into another unit.

How is the fact that he's in Power Armour make this pointless? Is it because Games Workshop doesn't make a Power Armoured Marine model with a Sniper Rifle? Oh wait, they do...

Zarius wrote:
The option itself specifically says that ONE scout unit can take it. I would like it if you would explain to me HOW I would take the upgrade and apply it to a UNIT without applying it to a specific MODEL in that unit. I can't upgrade a scout by designating the WHOLE unit for the upgrade, because I still have to designate a specific model that receives the upgrade.

The rules tell us that Options are unit upgrades.

The unit is upgraded by switching out a scout model for a WGPL model and therewith "get something that is better than what you had originally"

The unit takes a "trade a scout for a WGPL" unit upgrade option.

 Kriswall wrote:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
Like I said Zarius this is a lost cause just never play these people and let them cheat cause they clearly need to so bad to win that they are going this far with it.


Just look at their bike riding termi, with a sniper, thats part of a scout squad, and shoot it with a vindicator.

Please don't imply that I'm a cheater. You don't know me and you've never played me. I might have the highest sportsmanship of anyone you've ever met. Let's keep this civil and not resort to name calling. It's the hallmark of a small mind.

I didn't say names, you sound like your guilty of something though. Plus you can be a nice person and still cheat. I'm just saying you know how they intended the rules to be, they are many ways to interpret a unit and its story in the game. but then your gonna say everyone interprets differently which is true.

So to settle this the only way i'd play you is if you used this model for you sniper wolf marine scout....http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660641.page#8061364

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

 DeathReaper wrote:
That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

Page 4 would be a helpful read.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

FIRST OF ALL, if we want to call names, then I have to say that the ^#&%!*&(es) calling someone they've never played against and who is clearly just playing devil's advocate a cheater need to eat ^*&% and stick they're head(s) in a toilet. Just don't flush. -.-"

Second, I AGREE with Kriswall's logic, as shown by the fact that I've posted several comments of my OWN on par with his. Mind you, I've never played a game outside of me and my roommate, to learn the basics of the rules. But, from my view, given the precise wording of the rules, Kriswall's and my logic seems sound to me. So, never having played ANYONE, you want to call me a cheater, you little %$&##^%? Do you? Because it's REALLY %$*#!%$ hard to cheat at something that I've never actually played outside of a controlled learning environment before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, before anyone goes crying to mods, I filtered myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Smurf, I'd probably take the WGPL ANYWAYS, mostly because the Meltabomb will work against nearly anything, while the krak grenades hit a brick wall when you get to certain tanks.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Right, the scout model has been upgraded...

Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

The unit was upgraded from a unit of 5 scouts to a unit of 4 scouts and a WPGL.

That does not say that all of its previously selected Wargear options are lost...

That scout model is no longer part of the unit. The unit has "gotten [a WPGL model] that is better than what [it] had originally".

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Thank you, Reaper, that's a good example of what I'm trying to say.

col_impact wrote:

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

And so is the model...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Rasko, the actual RULE for the option says ""may upgrade one scout to Wolf Pack Guard Leader". That, in itself, is stating that the upgrade is to one MODEL, which you have to select, not to the unit itself. Just the one model IN the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The option is listed under the UNIT'S upgrades, and upgrading one model upgrades that unit, but the specific rule clearly states that it is for a specific MODEL.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Silly you. The rules say the unit is being upgraded.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

And so is the model...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Exactly where does it say that the upgraded model loses all previous wargear?

Take the example of a Blood Angels captain. he goes to upgrade to Terminator armor, and it specifically says what he replaces to take this option. (It says "May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…).

The Scout upgrading does not say you replace, so you do not.

It will not say so. That's because it is a Unit change. Not a model change.

As Col said, it is a Unit upgrade. Not a Model upgrade.

Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

I have a rule that says its a unit upgrade.


The unit upgrade is accomplished by getting a WPGL that is better than the Scout the unit had originally.

Upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Sure. ONE scout is a model, not a whole unit. This is as designated by the fact that the UNIT is comprised of "5 Wolf Scouts", with option to add 5 more Wolf Scout models. If it was a UNIT change, it would be logical to word it "may swap one scout for a WGPL", not upgrade. THAT would be a unit-only change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, anything that improves the functionality of a single model is, inherently, a unit upgrade, as well, because it improves the functionality of the whole unit.

But here's an example of a Unit upgrade:
"All Wolf Scouts in the unit may take camo cloaks…2 pts/model"
THAT is an upgrade that applies to the whole unit.

Why does it need to say "may swap one scout for a WGPL"?
It already says "may upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL".
It is the same thing.

How do we know that upgrade means swap or any equivalent?

The Unit is upgraded from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

By specifically designating "one scout" anything, it's clearly a model upgrade because you aren't required (or can't, depending on the rule) to do it to everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because by saying that you would SWAP, that indicates a UNIT change, not a MODEL change by "upgrade."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, and like I said, ANYTHING that you add to a model is, itself, an upgrade to the unit itself. You upgrade one thing, you upgrade the whole group, even if every thing in that group doesn't get the same upgrade. It would only be a UNIT upgrade if, like the Cloaks, you had to take it on more than one unit to take it on ANY unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A model upgrade is inherently a unit upgrade, because a model is inherently part of a unit (the only exceptions being Independent Characters, because their gear list is COMPLETELY separate, as a solo trooper. But a Unit upgrade is not, necessarily an upgrade to a specific model, but to everything that qualifies withIN the unit.

Basically, a model upgrade would be a SUBclassification of a unit upgrade, being targeted at only one model at a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, slightly different approach to it. Let's say I take upgrades for a Lone Wolf. Unit comp, 1 Lone Wolf. Does that qualify as a Unit Upgrade or a Model Upgrade? No looking at the rules, just answer based off of logic.

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

col_impact wrote:
Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Actually, "swap" and "upgrade" would largely be synonymous to the end result.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Topic:
It is both a model and a unit upgrade. I seriously do not see how or why it needs to be just one of these cases.

Unit Compososition lists "the number and type of models that form the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken." - Datasheet Legend.

So, the Wolf Scout is a model. If it is upgraded, it is a model upgrade.

The ability to upgrade the Wolf Scout is in the Options section. The Options list the upgrades for the unit, therefore it is also a unit upgrade.

There is no general rule stating that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader loses any Wargear in the upgrade, however, there is nothing states that he keeps it and is not just presented in the default Wargear as presented in the unit entry. I don't see it, either way, in the Wolf Scouts entry, but I don't have the Wulfen changes available to me at this time.

A single Wolf Scout is indeed a MODEL, not a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph, read that whole post. I actually specifically SAID that a model upgrade is a unit upgrade. So, by declaring something a model upgrade it automatically says that it's both. My point behind asking the question is that Rasko is saying that the Scout upgrade to WGPL ISN'T a model upgrade and that, thus, by taking the WPGL upgrade, you are inherently SWAPPING a model out completely for a different model, versus upgrading the model to a higher ranking one. The reasoning for THAT argument is about whether or a WPGL that was a scout and had a sniper rifle and cloak can keep his old gear on upgrade or not. The rule for the upgrade specifies ONE Wolf Scout, versus stating that the unit gains or changes out or swaps or otherwise actually REPLACES the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was using an example, however, that HAS to be a model upgrade because the unit only contains one model. Anything done TO the unit is done to the MODEL as well. I'm trying to drag people down the path of logic.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

You are now using dictionary definitions as a counter-argument.
You are right, it is one thing upgrade could mean.
It can also mean..

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

Now you are at a logical impasse. There is two contradicting meanings to word 'upgrade'.
If you take it to mean promotion, you are completely right.
If you take it to mean get something better than what you had originally, you are completely wrong.

So what do we do in this situation. We have to find what the Codex means by 'upgrade' since there is two contradicting meanings.
We found one that means "to get something that is better than what you had originally"

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Have you found one that means a promotion?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Doesn't this contradict that it is a model upgrade. It says that it is a unit upgrade.
You will upgrade from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. It is a model change as well.

Ok. It was poorly worded. I am used to talking to Zarius, so I assume certain things have been discussed.

What I meant by "it is not a model change", is that the specific Wolf Scout model is not being "promoted, through a transformative process" to a WGPL.

Except it is, because that is what upgrade means.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had".

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Do you have a rule that says its a model upgrade?

Yes, I already posted it...

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…" (Space wolves Codex, Wolf Scouts entry).

A Wolf Scout is a model.

Silly you. That's a unit upgrade. The unit is getting a WGPL which is better than the Scout it originally had.

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Because the dictionary lists the definitions by commonality. To prevent what YOU are doing, which is simply choosing the definition you want to choose, you default to the first, or most common, definition. As such, the correct definition here would be

-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements

I make my scout better by including the WPGL improvement. First definition, thus correct one UNLESS context indicates otherwise. In this instance, context COULD be either the first OR the third (or second, to be honest), because they ALL could make sense here, thus, the first is defaulted.

The rules explicitly tell us this . . .

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

So the third definition is the one the BRB is using.

The burden is on you to prove otherwise.

Options are unit upgrades, not model upgrades. The third definition is the one that works in the context of unit upgrades.

I'm assuming when you say third definition, you are referring to this:

Rasko wrote:
This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

Col_impact

First, stop calling people names, even if it's only 'silly." It makes you look like an donkey-cave, and nobody has yet (including this post) insulted you.
Second, if it's upgrading the whole unit, then why does it specify ONE scout gets an UPGRADE.

Rasko

Let's go for a logical approach here. If you want to upgrade a scout unit, are you a) going to ram some slob in there that has NO clue how to be stealthy or use a sniper rifle (which are two of the main functions of scouts, based on gear allotments) or b) take the BEST member of a scout unit and promote HIM, so that he can improve current scouts and teach new scouts? (I'll give you a hint, you don't have a group of ANYTHING lead by someone who doesn't know the first thing about that thing).

"Upgrade" in this case is very distinct from "exchange" or "replace." If the option entry read "May replace one Wolf Scout with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" or "The unit may be joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" we would not be having this debate, because it would be clear which state the WGPL model is in at the time he was added.

But since I never got an answer the last time I asked this, I will try asking again. By strict adherence to the logic of "backwards legality," can anyone demonstrate how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment a model takes the upgrade, that model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. How do you resolve this conundrum?

Rasko wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

From what I understand, one of the arguments is that the rules are using the definition of upgrade to be "to get something better than what you had originally." If so, then the option to upgrade a unit with pistols to have generic CCWs means that the generic CCWs are better than pistols.

Zarius wrote:
Second, if it's upgrading the whole unit, then why does it specify ONE scout gets an UPGRADE.

When we say unit upgrade, we are not saying, 'the whole unit must get the upgrade'. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?
When we say unit upgrade, we are using it exactly the same context as everyone else here. That the unit is upgraded...

Zarius wrote:
Let's go for a logical approach here. If you want to upgrade a scout unit, are you a) going to ram some slob in there that has NO clue how to be stealthy or use a sniper rifle (which are two of the main functions of scouts, based on gear allotments) or b) take the BEST member of a scout unit and promote HIM, so that he can improve current scouts and teach new scouts? (I'll give you a hint, you don't have a group of ANYTHING lead by someone who doesn't know the first thing about that thing).

Someone on the other side of the argument.... Please tell him how he is wrong here. He is using IRL skill progression as a counter-argument to a game.
He won't accept any criticism on the matter from me, because he wants to be right. Can one of you please tell him that it is not how the game works?

 Happyjew wrote:
From what I understand, one of the arguments is that the rules are using the definition of upgrade to be "to get something better than what you had originally." If so, then the option to upgrade a unit with pistols to have generic CCWs means that the generic CCWs are better than pistols.

Ok. Can I play Devil's Advocate?
What if I consider a Wolf Scout better than the WGPL because of starting gear/special rules? The Wolf Scout could never be "promoted" to a WGPL. It would not even be a possibility. The game breaks if we take your stance.

Creeperman wrote:
"Upgrade" in this case is very distinct from "exchange" or "replace." If the option entry read "May replace one Wolf Scout with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" or "The unit may be joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" we would not be having this debate, because it would be clear which state the WGPL model is in at the time he was added.

But since I never got an answer the last time I asked this, I will try asking again. By strict adherence to the logic of "backwards legality," can anyone demonstrate how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment a model takes the upgrade, that model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. How do you resolve this conundrum?

Simple. It is a upgrade to the unit.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You are never going through a process of "promotion". You have upgraded from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and a WGPL. This is shown in the above quote by upgrades adding to the unit. Not the model.

Zarius wrote:

Charistoph, read that whole post. I actually specifically SAID that a model upgrade is a unit upgrade.

Sorry, I forgot to put in a more obvious transition from specific response to general response. This has been corrected.

I just found it a little silly that some were presenting a concept of one upgrade type excluding the other.

 Happyjew wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

From what I understand, one of the arguments is that the rules are using the definition of upgrade to be "to get something better than what you had originally." If so, then the option to upgrade a unit with pistols to have generic CCWs means that the generic CCWs are better than pistols.

Do you have a quote?

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

From what I understand, one of the arguments is that the rules are using the definition of upgrade to be "to get something better than what you had originally." If so, then the option to upgrade a unit with pistols to have generic CCWs means that the generic CCWs are better than pistols.

Do you have a quote?

No, which is why I asked you if my assumption was correct.

Creeperman wrote:
"Upgrade" in this case is very distinct from "exchange" or "replace." If the option entry read "May replace one Wolf Scout with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" or "The unit may be joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" we would not be having this debate, because it would be clear which state the WGPL model is in at the time he was added.

But since I never got an answer the last time I asked this, I will try asking again. By strict adherence to the logic of "backwards legality," can anyone demonstrate how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment a model takes the upgrade, that model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. How do you resolve this conundrum?

Backwards legality is a great house rule. But it won't help in a RAW argument unless you find that somewhere in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
If so, is a generic CCW better than the pistol that certain marines come with, and can be replaced?

I don't quite follow in how a CCW being better than a pistol will change anything...

From what I understand, one of the arguments is that the rules are using the definition of upgrade to be "to get something better than what you had originally." If so, then the option to upgrade a unit with pistols to have generic CCWs means that the generic CCWs are better than pistols.

Do you have a quote?

No, which is why I asked you if my assumption was correct.

What is the relevance if you are making up a scenario?

He is implying that he thinks CCW's are worse than Pistols.
Which means it is not an upgrade. Which means the meaning breaks.

A poor argument because it can literally just be thrown right back. I consider Wolf Scout to be better than the WGPL because of the special rules/wargear. The promotion can't be considered an upgrade. Which means the meaning breaks.

Our personal opinions mean nothing.

"All Wolf Scouts in the unit may take camo cloaks…2 pts/model" This is UNIT only upgrade. You can't make one Scout model in the unit have a cloak and NOT have all 4-10 units.

"Any Wolf Scout may replace his boltgun with a:" This is a model specific upgrade, because you can do this anywhere between 0 and 10 times, at whim. This applies to one, and only one, model at a time, because you CHOOSE which model. Infact, if you take just one sniper and a plasma pistol AND you decide to take a Special Weapon, you have to decide whether all three of those are going on one model, or if you're going to spread them out. If all three are on one model, your unit can't USE all three in one Shooting phase.

The difference between a Unit upgrade, meaning an upgrade that only affects the unit, and a model upgrade is whether you have to apply it to more than one unit at a pop (cloak) or if you can chose how many/which models GET that upgrade.

HappyJew actually, you're slightly wrong. The rule for Generic Melee is that ALL models are considered to have a generic CCW, which operates under the profile of Range - Str U AP -

I suppose that, TECHNICALLY, that means that ANY unit could use the Swap Melee Weapon for -blarf- rule, regardless. Assuming it's an allowed option.

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
"Upgrade" in this case is very distinct from "exchange" or "replace." If the option entry read "May replace one Wolf Scout with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" or "The unit may be joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" we would not be having this debate, because it would be clear which state the WGPL model is in at the time he was added.

But since I never got an answer the last time I asked this, I will try asking again. By strict adherence to the logic of "backwards legality," can anyone demonstrate how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment a model takes the upgrade, that model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. How do you resolve this conundrum?

Backwards legality is a great house rule. But it won't help in a RAW argument unless you find that somewhere in the rules.

Which is of course my point exactly. Insisting that an upgrade be legal to take again after it has already been taken once is a house rule, because there is no rules support for adjudicating it that way.

Except, Col, that Backwards legality is one of the arguments being used here, so if that's the case, why are you arguing FOR my side?

I really hope you understand the discussion going on...

Zarius wrote:
Except, Col, that Backwards legality is one of the arguments being used here, so if that's the case, why are you arguing FOR my side?

I am not using Backwards Legality as an argument.

Your argument falls apart because it does not have rules support. It also falls apart because it is propped up on taking one definition of upgrade arbitrarily over another instead of letting the context of the rules decide which definition is appropriate.

The rules tell us that Options are unit upgrades.

So the Option to upgrade a Wolf Scout into a WPGL is the Option for the unit to get WPGL model instead of the Wolf Scout model the unit originally had.

If you mean me, yes. Backwards legality, meaning that every time you take an upgrade, you have to go BACK and check that a) the upgrade you took doesn't interfere with a previous upgrade and b) old upgrades aren't rendered illegal by the new upgrade.

Certain logical exceptions would apply (you can't replace one bolt pistol twice, because you no longer HAVE a bolt pistol), but outside of the brutally obvious, backwards legality isn't specifically defined in the manual as a thing. Which is one of the arguments YOU'VE made against it.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
"Upgrade" in this case is very distinct from "exchange" or "replace." If the option entry read "May replace one Wolf Scout with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" or "The unit may be joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader" we would not be having this debate, because it would be clear which state the WGPL model is in at the time he was added.

But since I never got an answer the last time I asked this, I will try asking again. By strict adherence to the logic of "backwards legality," can anyone demonstrate how we take the Pack Leader upgrade?

The option to upgrade is specific to Wolf Scouts, and the moment a model takes the upgrade, that model is no longer a Scout, and is thus ineligible to select the Pack Leader upgrade he just selected. How do you resolve this conundrum?

Backwards legality is a great house rule. But it won't help in a RAW argument unless you find that somewhere in the rules.

Which is of course my point exactly. Insisting that an upgrade be legal to take again after it has already been taken once is a house rule, because there is no rules support for adjudicating it that way.

My point is the rules state that it's a unit upgrade.



So the unit of scouts is upgraded by getting a WPGL model instead of the Wolf Scout model the unit originally had.

Col, the context of the rules could mean ANY of the three definitions. Conventions of the English language therefore dictate that you use the FIRST definition, as the most commonly used one.

Zarius wrote:
If you mean me, yes. Backwards legality, meaning that every time you take an upgrade, you have to go BACK and check that a) the upgrade you took doesn't interfere with a previous upgrade and b) old upgrades aren't rendered illegal by the new upgrade.

Certain logical exceptions would apply (you can't replace one bolt pistol twice, because you no longer HAVE a bolt pistol), but outside of the brutally obvious, backwards legality isn't specifically defined in the manual as a thing. Which is one of the arguments YOU'VE made against it.

Yup. I tend to stick to RAW unless something can simply be dismissed as absurd (reductio ad absurdem). For example, you throw out lines of reasoning that lead to a radically unplayable game.

Col, Rasko, could you BOTH stop using the Spoilers thing? Seriously, I'm about to stop accepting ANYTHING the both of you put inside them. There AREN'T any spoilers there, so knock it off.

Zarius wrote:
Col, the context of the rules could mean ANY of the three definitions. Conventions of the English language therefore dictate that you use the FIRST definition, as the most commonly used one.

Incorrect. The rules clearly state that we are dealing with a unit upgrade so the 3rd definition is the only one that makes sense of that context. Units don't get promoted.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

How does that mean anything else than the unit...

Zarius wrote:
Conventions of the English language therefore dictate that you use the FIRST definition, as the most commonly used one.

No it doesn't... Where is this "life" rulebook you have. I would like to read it.

So by extension, you are now arguing that a unit of Wolf Scouts cannot have both camo cloaks and sniper rifles. After all, your new argument states that we must first upgrade our 5-man bolter scouts to a 5-man bolter and camo scout unit, but then our next upgrade can only target the basic unit profile listed on the datasheet, resulting in 5 scouts with sniper rifles and no camo cloaks.

I suppose this argument is at least consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent.

Creeperman wrote:
So by extension, you are now arguing that a unit of Wolf Scouts cannot have both camo cloaks and sniper rifles. After all, your new argument states that we must first upgrade our 5-man bolter scouts to a 5-man bolter and camo scout unit, but then our next upgrade can only target the basic unit profile listed on the datasheet, resulting in 5 scouts with sniper rifles and no camo cloaks.

I suppose this argument is at least consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent.

The upgrades on the ALE are unit upgrades per the Options rule. Unit upgrades can involve changes at any level beneath the unit level.

If the Option adds a camo cloak and a sniper rile to a scout, the unit has been upgraded to 4 scouts with boltguns and 1 scout with a camo cloak and sniper rifle.

Where did you get the idea that the unit composition never changes?

Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

The unit composition will change after upgrades are taken...

Rasko wrote:
Where did you get the idea that the unit composition never changes?

From your insistence that a unit upgrade somehow resets the wargear of the existing models, in re the WGPL. You can't have it both ways. Either upgrades can build on each other (which renders this model vs unit upgrade argument meaningless), or they can't, and multiple upgrades can't be taken. So which is it?

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Where did you get the idea that the unit composition never changes?

From your insistence that a unit upgrade somehow resets the wargear of the existing models, in re the WGPL. You can't have it both ways. Either upgrades can build on each other (which renders this model vs unit upgrade argument meaningless), or they can't, and multiple upgrades can't be taken. So which is it?

False dichotomy.

All of the choices are unit upgrades and factor in to the final composition of the unit.

I have a unit of scouts that has been upgraded to 9 scouts (3 of which have camo cloaks, 2 of which have sniper rifles) and 1 WPGL.

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Where did you get the idea that the unit composition never changes?

From your insistence that a unit upgrade somehow resets the wargear of the existing models, in re the WGPL. You can't have it both ways. Either upgrades can build on each other (which renders this model vs unit upgrade argument meaningless), or they can't, and multiple upgrades can't be taken. So which is it?

False dichotomy.

All of the choices are unit upgrades and factor in to the final composition of the unit.

I have a unit of scouts that has been upgraded to 9 scouts (3 of which have camo cloaks, 2 of which have sniper rifles) and 1 WPGL.

If by "false dichotomy" you mean "the root of the issue under discussion," then yes.

I have a unit of 5 scouts, all of whom have camo cloaks and sniper rifles. Then I select the WGPL upgrade. Result: 4 sniper scouts with camo, plus 1 WGPL with camo and sniper rifle. I'm glad you finally agree with me.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Where did you get the idea that the unit composition never changes?

From your insistence that a unit upgrade somehow resets the wargear of the existing models, in re the WGPL. You can't have it both ways. Either upgrades can build on each other (which renders this model vs unit upgrade argument meaningless), or they can't, and multiple upgrades can't be taken. So which is it?

False dichotomy.

All of the choices are unit upgrades and factor in to the final composition of the unit.

I have a unit of scouts that has been upgraded to 9 scouts (3 of which have camo cloaks, 2 of which have sniper rifles) and 1 WPGL.

If by "false dichotomy" you mean "the root of the issue under discussion," then yes.

I have a unit of 5 scouts, all of whom have camo cloaks and sniper rifles. Then I select the WGPL upgrade. Result: 4 sniper scouts with camo, plus 1 WGPL with camo and sniper rifle. I'm glad you finally agree with me.

Incorrect. That scout got replaced by the WPGL model when you upgraded the unit with that option.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. That scout got replaced by the WPGL model when you upgraded the unit with that option.

Please cite rules that instruct you to "replace" a model when taking an upgrade. Alternatively, explain how your unit of 9 scouts with 3 camo cloaks doesn't get replaced by your unit of 9 scouts with 2 sniper rifles.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. That scout got replaced by the WPGL model when you upgraded the unit with that option.

Please cite rules that instruct you to "replace" a model when taking an upgrade. Alternatively, explain how your unit of 9 scouts with 3 camo cloaks doesn't get replaced by your unit of 9 scouts with 2 sniper rifles.

There is something that tells us upgrade means 'replace' right here.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

This shows us we add to the unit, not the model. Therefore meaning the model is not 'promoted/transformed'.

Rasko wrote:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Doesn't this contradict that it is a model upgrade. It says that it is a unit upgrade.
You will upgrade from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts and 1 WGPL.

It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. That scout got replaced by the WPGL model when you upgraded the unit with that option.

Incorrect, the scout got upgraded to the WGPL.

It literally says this in the rules.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..."

Not replace, Upgrade.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not replace, Upgrade.

This is Merriam-Webster's definition of upgrade when used as a verb:
-to make (something) better by including the most recent information or improvements
-to choose to have or use something more modern, useful, etc.
-to get something that is better than what you had originally

It did follow the definition of upgrade.

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?

And you need to read the quote I provided out of the SW codex.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..."

and Codex trumps BRB when there is a conflict...

Therefore you do not add you upgrade.

P.S. the upgraded model is better than what you had originally, since it has a better LD score and more Attacks.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

False. Any changes to models or weapons are all allowable and all just encapsulated as unit upgrades. Did you forget that units are comprised of models?

There is no overwriting. Where do you see that in the rules?

However, at the end of everything you need a legal unit composition with legal unit upgrades since it's all unit upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is an upgrade to a model, it is also an upgrade to the unit...

It is both.

Please literally read what option says.
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

You add a WGPL to the unit. Where do you get that it is a 'model' upgrade from that sentence?

And you need to read the quote I provided out of the SW codex.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..."

and Codex trumps BRB when there is a conflict...

Therefore you do not add you upgrade.

P.S. the upgraded model is better than what you had originally, since it has a better LD score and more Attacks.

There is no conflict.

"May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader..." is a unit upgrade. Did you forget units are comprised of models?

Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?

It feels to me like you are purposely misinterpreting me...

Rasko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?

He has forgotten that units are comprised of models.

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

False. Any changes to models or weapons are all allowable and all just encapsulated as unit upgrades. Did you forget that units are comprised of models?

There is no overwriting. Where do you see that in the rules?

However, at the end of everything you need a legal unit composition with legal unit upgrades since it's all unit upgrades.

Your inconsistency is staggering. I am having an extraordinarily difficult time identifying your position and following your reasoning when you keep reversing yourself.

Once again you're apparently trying to tell me upgrades are unit-based, except as they're applied to models, but they're definitely not both because reasons. Which is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rasko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
As a consequence of this interpretation, your wargear options now do nothing for you, since you claim the upgrades are given only to the unit and the models are not being upgraded (and thus not equipped) at all. And it also fails to address the question of how to select multiple upgrades without them overwriting each other.

Are you sure you wish to continue along this line of reasoning? It seems to be breaking more situations than it resolves.

Huh????
Are you even on the same page as me?
When I say unit upgrades, I mean that the unit has been upgraded. Not that every single model in the unit was upgraded. How does that even make sense in the context of the argument?

It feels to me like you are purposely misinterpreting me...

You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

It's simple. Per the Options rule any option is a unit upgrade. If a model replaces its weapon its a unit upgrade. If a model is replaced for a sergeant model its a unit upgrade.

The Options sections lists all the upgrades you add to the unit.

So you add all the options you want and finalize the composition of the unit.

Simple.

RAW.

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

How does that mean anything else than the unit...

Zarius wrote:
Conventions of the English language therefore dictate that you use the FIRST definition, as the most commonly used one.

No it doesn't... Where is this "life" rulebook you have. I would like to read it.

Well, to start with, Elementary English... Middle School English... High School English... College English... College composition... College technical writing... By the way, EACH of these was at a different school, and several of them in different STATES, so it's not just one tiny place that thinks this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I can see Creeperman's point. His point is that Rasko keeps saying that all upgrades (Since there are apparently no Model upgrades) Unit only. Which means that, basically, all of the sniper rifles, camo cloaks, the WGPL's power armor, any plasma or melta weapons taken... are all sitting in a jeep, because they were given to the UNIT, but not not to a given MODEL because, Col, you've pointed out the right thing, but the wrong target. Rasko's logic has forgotten that the units are comprised of models.

Further, Col, that's our point. The RAW IS that the model UPGRADES, not that the model is REPLACED. The RAW states nowhere that a unit receiving an upgrade is REPLACED. NOWHERE does either the Codex or the BRB state that the words "upgrade" and "replace" are synonyms. Now, that said, several pieces of gear ARE replaced to DO this upgrade. But nowhere in the RAW in either the core manual or the SW expansion codex does it say that the WHOLE unit is replaced.

Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

No, no, Rasko, we understood each other correctly. You keep saying that all of these upgrade options are UNIT upgrades. You won't concede that the upgrades are applied to the MODELS, and thus are not model upgrades. How can the model be upgraded, Rasko, if the upgrade is not a model upgrade?

By your logic, if I trade one of my Scouts' Bolter Rifles for a sniper rifle, that sniper rifle sits in my troop transport, AND my unit is out his bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it upgrades the MODEL, then it's a MODEL upgrade. Other wise the gear sits in the transport and does nothing, by your logic.

Fortunately, I did not do it for you Zarius. As you clearly show that you still do not understand the argument at all...

I honestly think that even if every single person in this thread decided that you were wrong, you would still argue that you were right.

Zarius wrote:
But that means that, even though he's a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, and not a Scout, he can't take both a Melee weapon swap out and a Ranged swap out, because he doesn't have access to the Chain Sword, even though that IS what the unit would start with if he were a Wolf Guard (pack leader or otherwise). The ability to take a Wolf Claw or a Frost Axe AND a plasma pistol or a storm bolter, or even a combi- if you want the one-shot, make the Wolf Guard worth taking. The ability to shoot the crap out of the enemy and then smash a tank with a frost axe or to wade into a brood swarm is literally what makes them worth the cost. But by your logic, he wouldn't start with the gear that would allow him to do that. BUT, on the same coin, because he's not a scout, he can't have the sniper rifle and the cloak. What makes him worth taking? The extra plasma pistol? The meltabomb? Nice, but not worth the cost. Something that hurts me is only useful in rare instances, even when I CAN get within the 12" range. The meltabomb is nice against a tank, but it's only a little *edit* more *end edit* powerful than a Krak grenade. He literally isn't worth the cost without EITHER the ability to function effectively as a scout, OR the ability to take ALL of his normal options. So, if he can't function as either what he IS or what he WAS, what's the point in even including the option?

You are way too personally invested into seeing this work. You will do whatever it takes to make this work because otherwise, you think that the WGPL is useless.
From how you have argued so far and this quote, I can't see you coming to any other conclusion. Most times, you don't even bother to understand what is being said.
You are entirely fixated on making this work, no matter what. Not to mention the fact that you've already misunderstood your own side's argument many times...

Rasko, you apparently missed the part where I said I was going to take him either way, because I was going to use my scouts as tank hunters. Meltabombs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, like I said before, NEW GUY... That was the "at a glance" opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You ALSO apparently missed the parts where I remarked that I was only pursuing this because it provides an excellent distraction while stuck in a chair at work for 9 hours a day, five days a week.

I'm sure everyone can use some distractions at work. If this helps you unwind a bit, I can appreciate that you have an outlet.

But you are in the rules section. While we are arguing the rules, why don't we all try to be logical.

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.

Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.

Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.

Incorrect, the Scout is an upgraded model, still the same model as nothing says to replace a scout with the leader model.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.

Irrelevant, not sure what car tires has to do with 40k Rules.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

Incorrect. you do not replace the model, you upgrade him.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Is from the Codex not the BRB..

Okay so you add and Upgrade. where is the issue?

The model is still upgraded.

Sure. The unit is upgraded per the Options rule so there is no issue. You get a different model than the one you had originally.

Incorrect, the Scout is an upgraded model, still the same model as nothing says to replace a scout with the leader model.

A car is comprised of a car body and tires. When I upgrade the tires to all-weather tires I get different tires than I had originally.

Irrelevant, not sure what car tires has to do with 40k Rules.

A unit is comprised of models. When I upgrade the unit by taking the Option to upgrade the scout to a WPGL I get a different model than I had originally.

Incorrect. you do not replace the model, you upgrade him.

Incorrect. You are upgrading the unit per the rules.



Also, upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally". So I get a WPGL model that is better than the Scout model I originally had.

 Kriswall wrote:
This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

...

Talk to your opponents and come up with a local consensus. You will not find one here.

5th post in this thread. Just sayin'. Might be time to let this die.

Rasko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

I'm following your argument so far. But let me ask this: When following that interpretation, what mechanism allows you to "replace" 5 bolter scouts with 5 sniper scouts and then "replace" those 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts, that does not also also permit you to then "replace" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL?

Let's try it like this, Rasko. You keep saying that all of the upgrade options are unit upgrades, but not model upgrades. Given the fact that most of the upgrades SPECIFICALLY say that "one scout", or "upto two scouts", or "any scout", how do you NOT interpret that as a model upgrade?

ONE scout is a model, not a unit. I couldn't take a bolter swap to a plasma gun AND a Heavy weapon, and call that one model a unit. While adding a rocket launcher to a specific model DOES upgrade the unit, because the model is PART of the unit, and the unit, as a whole has access to that item. BUT what happens when the model dies? Does someone else pick up the plasma gun? No. Once you take the upgrade, the upgrade is inherent to the MODEL, not to the UNIT.

The same is true of the WGPL. Once your WPGL is removed as a casualty, you're out the WGPL. Nobody else pulls his body out of the power armour and slides in it to take over command. The upgrade, while improving the unit as a whole, is unique to a specific model within the unit, not general to the unit as a whole. You don't just designate a new WPGL when the current one dies. Therefore, logically, it IS a model-specific upgrade.

Here, let's use the BRB for an explanation:

Each UNIT can fire upto, and including, all of the different weapon TYPES that it has.

A MODEL, on the other paw, can only fire once during the Fire phase, regardless of how many guns it has.

Let's say you take a rocket launcher (singular Heavy Weapon selection) and two Plasma *Pistols* (typed gun by mistake). Now, you've equipped the plasma guns to two different units, but you decide to equip the rocket launcher to the same model as one of your Plasma Pistols.

Can you fire both plasma pistols and the rocket launcher in the same shooting phase at that point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put it this way because if you take the Camo option, EVERYONE that's a Scout has the camo cloak. If half your unit dies, you still have the camo cloaks, no questions asked.

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
You claim that upgrades are only applied to units, not to models. Correct?

If so, how is the model accessing the upgraded wargear without itself being de facto upgraded? If not, then I'm lost as to what argument you're actually trying to advance.

I will assume that we misunderstood each other, and that this is genuine, to explain myself...
I'll try to do it in the most clear way possible.

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.
It has also been determined that Unit Compositions do change.
•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.
So everything falls into place.

I have looked but I could not find anything that gives us some information that shows, that the Codex wants 'upgrade' to mean 'promote'. Have you found something that helps us determine what the Codex means by "upgrade"? That is the argument.

I'm following your argument so far. But let me ask this: When following that interpretation, what mechanism allows you to "replace" 5 bolter scouts with 5 sniper scouts and then "replace" those 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts, that does not also also permit you to then "replace" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL?

The mechanism is the instructions in the Options section of the ALE which lists the unit upgrades that the unit may take.

Actually, Col, that's been the entire point of the last 7 pages of thread... Neither you nor rasko has provided definitive evidence to this point. The only difference between what Creeper said and what I've been saying is that he literally took out my word "upgrade" and replaced it with he word "replace." Outside of that, the sentiment is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rasko, as a point of order, I'd like to cite something for you:

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

The WGPL is an upgrade, right? By the basic definition of this sentence, then I can't TAKE WGPL or extra Scouts, because the unit composition is the BASIC unit, before upgrades. Both increased models AND the WGPL are upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the same token, my Wolf Lord can't take the Thunderwolf mount, Runic Armour, or wolf claws. It has to be a basic Wolf Lord, with bolter pistol and chain sword, because THOSE are upgrades as well.

Zarius wrote:
Let's try it like this, Rasko. You keep saying that all of the upgrade options are unit upgrades, but not model upgrades. Given the fact that most of the upgrades SPECIFICALLY say that "one scout", or "upto two scouts", or "any scout", how do you NOT interpret that as a model upgrade?

ONE scout is a model, not a unit. I couldn't take a bolter swap to a plasma gun AND a Heavy weapon, and call that one model a unit. While adding a rocket launcher to a specific model DOES upgrade the unit, because the model is PART of the unit, and the unit, as a whole has access to that item. BUT what happens when the model dies? Does someone else pick up the plasma gun? No. Once you take the upgrade, the upgrade is inherent to the MODEL, not to the UNIT.

The same is true of the WGPL. Once your WPGL is removed as a casualty, you're out the WGPL. Nobody else pulls his body out of the power armour and slides in it to take over command. The upgrade, while improving the unit as a whole, is unique to a specific model within the unit, not general to the unit as a whole. You don't just designate a new WPGL when the current one dies. Therefore, logically, it IS a model-specific upgrade.

Here, let's use the BRB for an explanation:

Each UNIT can fire upto, and including, all of the different weapon TYPES that it has.

A MODEL, on the other paw, can only fire once during the Fire phase, regardless of how many guns it has.

Let's say you take a rocket launcher (singular Heavy Weapon selection) and two Plasma *Pistols* (typed gun by mistake). Now, you've equipped the plasma guns to two different units, but you decide to equip the rocket launcher to the same model as one of your Plasma Pistols.

Can you fire both plasma pistols and the rocket launcher in the same shooting phase at that point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I put it this way because if you take the Camo option, EVERYONE that's a Scout has the camo cloak. If half your unit dies, you still have the camo cloaks, no questions asked.

The Options section lists the upgrades you may add to the unit and with that list the scope of what a legal unit is defined.

Consider this: I cannot have 2 WPGL in a unit of scouts. Why is that? Because that is not a legal unit upgrade. That is why it is NOT a model upgrade but actually a unit upgrade. The Options determines how a scout unit can be defined. A unit is a collection of models that are themselves equipped with weapons and wargear. What exactly is legal for the unit across all those levels is defined in the ALE based on a starting unit composition and allowable unit upgrades.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zarius wrote:
Actually, Col, that's been the entire point of the last 7 pages of thread... Neither you nor rasko has provided definitive evidence to this point. The only difference between what Creeper said and what I've been saying is that he literally took out my word "upgrade" and replaced it with he word "replace." Outside of that, the sentiment is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rasko, as a point of order, I'd like to cite something for you:

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

The WGPL is an upgrade, right? By the basic definition of this sentence, then I can't TAKE WGPL or extra Scouts, because the unit composition is the BASIC unit, before upgrades. Both increased models AND the WGPL are upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the same token, my Wolf Leader can't take the Thunderwolf mount, Runic Armour, or wolf claws. It has to be a basic Wolf Lord, with bolter pistol and chain sword, because THOSE are upgrades as well.

Don't be obtuse. The Options section lists the upgrades you may add to the unit and defines what is a legal unit composition.

I'm not being obtuse. YOU keep saying use the rules AS WRITTEN. The rules AS WRIT are that the Unit Composition is BEFORE UPGRADES, so either i CAN'T take upgrades, because the definition of what a Unit Comp is specifically states this, or the unit comp only matters for the ten seconds that it takes to check stats.

Taking a Thunderwolf Mount changes my Wolf Lord to a Calvary unit, gives him stat and attack bonuses, and changes his movement speed. That's an upgrade. That is, in fact, clearly a MODEL upgrade, because it clearly changes how the model functions.

But the rules AS WRITTEN state that unit comp is BEFORE upgrades.

If the unit comp SPECIFICALLY states "before upgrades", that means that every time I check my unit, I loose my upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's not obtuse, that's RAW.

Zarius wrote:


If the unit comp SPECIFICALLY states "before upgrades", that means that every time I check my unit, I loose my upgrades.

This is a ridiculous statement.

Then explain to me what the RAW means when it says "before upgrades." Because that's what it MEANS. Otherwise, there would have to be a different term to differentiate what the unit CURRENTLY has versus what the unit's defaults are. So, if my statement is ridiculous, then explain why, because I'm just being literal here. The RAW SAYS "before upgrades." I ASSUME that when it says BEFORE upgrades, it means BEFORE upgrades.

Zarius wrote:
Then explain to me what the RAW means when it says "before upgrades." Because that's what it MEANS. Otherwise, there would have to be a different term to differentiate what the unit CURRENTLY has versus what the unit's defaults are. So, if my statement is ridiculous, then explain why, because I'm just being literal here. The RAW SAYS "before upgrades." I ASSUME that when it says BEFORE upgrades, it means BEFORE upgrades.

unit composition + allowable unit upgrades in the Options section = legal unit composition

This is simple stuff. I am not sure why you are struggling with it.

The Army List Entry is a set of instructions for fielding a unit.

Then why the flaming crap lords do you people keep harping on the bloody exact meaning of Unit Composition? If you're willing to fudge the rules as written to incorporate terms that AREN'T in the manual, why are you being so obtuse about at least admitting that a gun purchase ALSO qualifies as a bloody Model Upgrade, since that should be obvious in the fact that you attach it to a specific bloody model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I'm struggling with is your OCD adherence to PART of the RAW, but then other parts going with the RAI.

Zarius wrote:
Then why the flaming crap lords do you people keep harping on the bloody exact meaning of Unit Composition? If you're willing to fudge the rules as written to incorporate terms that AREN'T in the manual, why are you being so obtuse about at least admitting that a gun purchase ALSO qualifies as a bloody Model Upgrade, since that should be obvious in the fact that you attach it to a specific bloody model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I'm struggling with is your OCD adherence to PART of the RAW, but then other parts going with the RAI.

Everything we are arguing is by RAW.

col_impact wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
I'm following your argument so far. But let me ask this: When following that interpretation, what mechanism allows you to "replace" 5 bolter scouts with 5 sniper scouts and then "replace" those 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts, that does not also also permit you to then "replace" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL?

The mechanism is the instructions in the Options section of the ALE which lists the unit upgrades that the unit may take.

So in other words, nothing at all. "Replacing" your 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts is just as legal as "replacing" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL because both operations are explicitly permitted by the ALE options. I'm glad we finally straightened that out through rigorous reinterpretation and redefinition of the word "upgrade."