Hey guys, so in the Ravenwing Strike Force rules it says "all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal." since normal deployment for Flyers is reserve, does that mean the bikes can go on the table and the flyer in reserve? Or does it mean that all the units must be on the table or in Reserve? 1d4chan and a few players I know say its the former, but some say its the latter. Which is it?

No. Either relates to all units. So all units must be in reserve OR all units must be deployed in the table.

It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Trystis wrote:
It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Apart from the bit where it says "all of the units must either " of course.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Apart from the bit where it says "all of the units must either " of course.

If it meant any other way than how you are saying it, Strike As One would basically just be "Deploy Your Army as Normal, Reserve Units Arrive Automatically on Turn 2".

It's not really a push to say normal for a flyer is coming on from reserve. It is however a push to say deploying a flyer on the table at the start of the game is normal.

OP, you'll likely find the vast majority of opponents you face will allow you keep it in reserves. If they don't, well then you have no way of deploying and can't play. find a new opponent.

I've personally not found a single player (irl) that doesn't allow it

No, if you take a flyer, then the entire formation is held in reserve. Thats how that rule works. Anythign else means the rule has absolutely no affect.

Oh, and holding in reserve is instead of deploying. So you can never say being held in reserve is deploying normally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, if you take a flyer, then the entire formation is held in reserve. Thats how that rule works. Anythign else means the rule has absolutely no affect.

Oh, and holding in reserve is instead of deploying. So you can never say being held in reserve is deploying normally.

Indeed, there phrasing of the rule is so an army composed entirely of bikes and speeders CAN be deployed on the field Turn 1. But if they include a flyer, they all go in reserve. It is Strike As One, not Strike In Parts.

and if the entire formation is your only formation, then you cannot play, and you move on to the next player that is fine with your house rule

 jokerkd wrote:
and if the entire formation is your only formation, then you cannot play, and you move on to the next player that is fine with your house rule

Thems the brakes. Better include something that does arrive Turn 1.

What do you mean "arrive turn 1"? do you mean deploying before the game?

 jokerkd wrote:
What do you mean "arrive turn 1"? do you mean deploying before the game?

Or comes in from reserves on Turn 1 like another detachment that includes Drop Pods. But if you only run an army of Ravenwing and include a flyer in that detachment, you are going to lose automatically. The same thing is true of the Deathwing Strike Force (can be mitigated with Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods) and stuff like the Legion of the Damned detachment. There are even ways to make a full Ravenwing army that doesn't auto-lose. Just include one of the non-flyer Ravenwing formations, such as the Ravenwing Attack Squadron or Ravenwing Support Squadron. The rules don't need to be bent in your favor just because you built a non-viable army.

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

This provides the option to either:
Place everything in reserve

Or

Deploy them as normal

You are choosing to ignore the word "Normal". Fliers have their own rules for deployment. By definition its normal to deploy them in that matter. It's exactly as normal to use those rules for the flyer as it is to deploy the bikes as you would regularly.

By demanding that they all go into reserve if you have a flier you are ignoring the OR.

Incorrect. Flyers do not deploy normally. Instead of deploying, they are placed in reserve.

Before responding further, please check what the rules state about placing models in reserve.

Joker - so if I want to have an army just of LatD, I get to turn up turn 1 as a houserule?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Flyers do not deploy normally. Instead of deploying, they are placed in reserve

Yeah your right that is how flyer deploy. Deploying then any other way would be abnormal.

The rules states to deploy them as normal, i.e. for flyers, in reserve. The rule doesn't state that everything has to start on the board, you are making that assumption because you are only selectively applying the word normal.

SO in your world "strike as one" means "strike in bits and pieces"?

I see you didnt bother checking the rules for reserves, as requested. Units placed in reserve are not deployed so no, a flyers normal deployment is not to be put in reserve. (it is what they do normally INSTEAD of being deployed)

Page 135, Preparing Reserves:
"..., players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Rserves to arrive later"

You are also avoiding the subject of the rule, which is "all of the units..." having to choose to deploy or start in reserve. You cannot have SOME deploy and SOME go in reserve, as that is not ALL of the units.

I am making absolutely no assumptions, you are simply ignoring a) the rule itself and b) the rules for reserves.

Page 505 of iBook format:

“Aerial Support
Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule).”

And the rule for flyers state they "must start in reserve". This is normal deployment for them. So when I choose normal deployment the flyer doesn't starting ignoring its normal deployment, nor do the bikes ignore their normal deployment. Doing anything other than this requires a special rule that SPECIFICALLY states that it effects the flyer, and the bikes can either be placed in reserve or on the table which is normal for them. If the rule stated that they had to be on table you would be correct, but it doesn't. It allows you to use normal rules, which you are ignoring

The purpose of the rule is to allow you an alternate form of deployment if you choose to take it.

The rule phrasing matters, not the title of the rule.

Yes, flyers normally start in Reserve

They do not normally DEPLOY in reserve

Because Reserves is a choice "not to deploy"

If you are not deploying, howa reyou claiming the flyer is deploying?

And, again: you ignore that ALL OF THE UNITS IN THE FORMATION must pick to deploy or start in reserves. The flyer startting in reserve means everything else must start in reserve.

Yes, the rule pohrasing matters. But the title is a clue. And, as proven, the phrasing supports the title as well, which is handy

Placing models in reserve is part of normal deployment. So when I chose to deploy normally it effects everything even flyers. Let's look at the the rules for deployment section:

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve" pg 589

When I deploy models using the rules for deployment before the 1st turn the deployment rules give me the option to either start them on the board or place them in reserve. I can do either, the strike as one doesn't state I must choose the board.

And deploying flyers by placing them in reserve is the normal way to deploy them. Any other way requires a special rule.

No. Youre flat out wrong, as the rules have been given already show.

Page 135, Preparing Reserves:
"..., players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Rserves to arrive later"

As you missed it last time.

Being placed in reserve is NOT deployment. This rule states so.

Counter this rule. Page and graph.

How do you deploy 'as normal'? 'As normal' I put some units on the table, and some in reserves. Then in turn 2 I roll for the reserves.

The advantage of putting everything into reserves is that they all arrive turn 2 without rolling.

Don't overthink the definition of 'as normal'..

Ushtarador wrote:
How do you deploy 'as normal'? 'As normal' I put some units on the table, and some in reserves. Then in turn 2 I roll for the reserves.

The advantage of putting everything into reserves is that they all arrive turn 2 without rolling.

Don't overthink the definition of 'as normal'..

"deploy as normal"

Placing a unit in reserves is INSTEAD of deploying them. As the rules state.

In addition, if you place some units in reserve and deploy some on the table, you have broken the rule which states ALL units must either be deployed or put in reserves. Binary, all or nothing - all in reserve, all on the table deployed. So if some cannot be deployed, they must all be in reserve

No "over think"-ing going on. Just following all applicable rules.

If you disagree, cite your ruels references that counter the ones given already.

First, the rule you quote for reserves is larger:

“When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve"

The flyer must go in reserves per its rules. This is the normal consequence of deployment for them. It's impossible to deploy them any other way without a special rule. This is once again by definition normal for them.

If you chose to place everything in reserves they receive a special rule, if you chose to deploy normally they do not so they must follow the steps you provided, where they end up in reserve.

Nothing about the strike as one rule forces me to choose either options, I get to decide. If I chose the option with out the special rule the flier ends up in reserve per the rule you quoted

Yes, it is normal for them to be placed in Reserves. However, AGAIN the rules FOR RESERVES

States
That
Being
Placed
In
Reserves
Is
Not
Deployment

How many times can this be stated? Being put in reserves is not being deployed. It is being placed in reserves.

Hell, you're even told if it is "impossible to deploy a unit" it gets put in reserves - meanign reserves CANNOT be deployment, because otherwise it would not be impossible to deploy them!

So, please. Explain how when you are told putting a unit in reserve is when you choose NOT to deploy then, or when it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy them, that this is somehow deployment? Page and graph please.

Where it says normal. Explain why you get to ignore normal

Explain why you get to ignore Deploy.

GO on. You've been asked often enough. Explain how you can "deploy" in reserves, despite Reserves being something you do instead of "deploy".

I'm not ignoring it, im following it normally

For example using a CAD:
I look at the deployment process and things can either be deployed or reserved now
Its my turn to deploy, and I get to my flier
I look at the flier rule and it states it must be in reserves.
I look at the reserve rule, and it states that things that are impossible to deploy must be held in reserve.
This is normal

For example using a RWSF:
I look at the deployment process and things can either be deployed or reserved now
Its my turn to deploy, and i choose to deploy normally
I get to my flier
I look at the flier rule and it states it must be in reserves.
I look at the reserve rule, and it states that things that are impossible to deploy must be held in reserve.
This is normal

If it changes between the two examples then it isn't normal and you are breaking the strike as one rule.

Sigh

You are told you must deploy as normal

being placed in reserves is something you do instead of deploy(ing)

By placing the flyer in reserve, you have placed the model in reserves, you have not deployed. If other units deploy, then you have not followed the REQUIREMENT that EITHER ALL units deploy or ALL units are placed in reserves.

Youre still breaking a rule, and still dont seem to understand a basic diference between deploy and palce in reserves.

Until you actually address this, tehre is no discussion possible with you. You jsut remain wrong.

I'm not breaking the rule. It's impossible to deploy a flier akin any circumstance.

The reserve rule tells you how to handle this. You place it in reserve.

The strike as one rule gives me the option to deploy normally. That is how deployment is handled for a flier. No where does it state that everything has to go in reserves if I deploy a flier.

You are ignoring the very rule you quoted, and demanding something special happen when the rules say it should be normal.

No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP

I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Strike as one doesn't say what you want want it to. It's all of the units must be placed in reserve or deployed normally.

First your argument can be reversed. I didn't place all of my units in reserve so they must be deployed normally, and they can't go in reserve.

Second, it doesn't say anything about on the table.

Third, you still haven't countered what happens when it's impossible to deploy a unit. The rules says what to do and you ignore it to suit your argument. This is the normal way to handle deployment which is what's referred to in the strike as one rule.

Also, lol, you don't just get to decide you win. I mean you can... But no one has to accept you as the winner, but I guess if your ego needs that then more power to you.

WHen you cannot present a rules based counter to the arugment presented, whic h you have yet to do so, your argument fails.

the rule states every unit must EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed. This is proven.

You keep making assertions, but have yet to cite a single supporting rule. Follwo the tenets and mark your post as HYWPI, as you have yet to support your argument with anything even approaching a credible, rules based argument

Oh, and I ignore nothing. I fyou cannot deploy a unit (such as a flier!) then it must be placed in reserves. As one unit is placed in Reserves, EVERY unit must be placed in reserves. Done. Oh, and YET AGAIN "my" way (the one with the rules support) ALSO happens to follow the rule "strike as one", not your version which is "strike in parts"

Hell, that should give you a clue that perhaps yoru reading of the rule is a little off!

Well then it's impossible to ever use a flier in any of the rule book missions.... As they all say you must "deploy" using the standard method.

Since flier can't deploy then they can't be used or... You the same rule when you deeply them normally per the strike as one rule

Really, thats your argument?

Lol

You finally agree fliers cant deploy? Only taken the rule stating exactly that being shown to your three or four times, but hey, its an improvement...

Go look at the standard method. Then maybe retract your crazy assertion?

I don't agree to it at all. I was only applying your incorrect logic to the rest of the game.

The stand method to deploy? You mean what you normally do? Well exactly, that's my point. Do it normally.

You say I haven't provided a rule, but I have and you ignore the part you don't like.

"“When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve" "

So when the rules state placnig units in reserve is when you cannot deploy, you still think that this is deploying?

Really?

Attack the rules. Explain how the rule stating they are nto deplopying means they are actually deploying. Go on, please, this shoudl be interesting.

I'm ignoring nothing. Dont lie.

 Kriswall wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP

I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

I tend to agree with Trystis on this one, Kriswall, but thank you for at least presenting your point in a way that doesn't make you look like a screaming three-year-old. With one strategic "ignore", maybe we can turn this into a coherent debate. As Trystis says, if your interpretation of "deployment' were correct, it would mean that none of the BRB missions would allow fliers since they each state that units use standard deployment.

Apart from the mission special rule "Reserves", which allows Fliers to be used.

SLippery slope fallacy again?

Both the mission rules and the strike as one rule state that you MUST deploy. You have to in both cases per the rules. The reserves rule would also impact the RWSF, it's what allows any army to take reserves, and has no value in the current discussion.

So deployment is a must, you can't not deploy in either case.

Some things are impossible to deploy though.

We have a handy rule for when this happens though. If you choose to read it. When things are imposible to deploy, you follow the rule:

“if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve"
It specifies any reason

The strike as one states you can deploy normally, what is normal? It would be the standard way of deployment just like the rule book missions. So the same methods would apply, unless you are saying the standard method isn't normal, and if it isn't what is?

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Does the rule state that all units be deployed on the tabletop during deployment, or deployed normally?

It states deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Arriving from Reserves is deploying (albeit not during deployment).

Alternatively, if the Flyer has Hover, get a Skyshield to minimize arguments.

The Mission rules tell you to deploy using Standard Deployment. These are then modified by the MIssion Special Rule "Reserves". This gives you the option of ising Reserves instead of deploying.

Meaning your conclusion that you "must" deploy is incorrect.

Impossible to deploy I already covered when i pointed out that if it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy and you are doing something else, that something else cannot, by definition, be "deploy" - because youve already determined that "deploy" is impossible, so to claim i havent read it is laughable.

Again

Te rule states that either every unit is deployed, or every unit is placed in reserves. So you must agree -a flier being placed in reserves means it CANNOT have deployed, because it was required to be placed in reserves, and this means EVERY unit must be placed in reserves

Given you agree, this can be settled here

Entyme - reported for rule 1.

It states that:

"All of the units in this detachment must either be placed in reserve or deployed as normal"

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm actually inclined to agree with Nosferatu1001. Fliers can't be deployed. Ergo, they're ineligible for any rule that requires them to be deployed. Being placed in reserves doesn't count as having been deployed. If the rule requires all models/units EITHER be placed in reserves OR be deployed to the table, the presence of a flyer means your only real option is to reserve all models/units. Deploying all models/units would be impossible and so isn't an option.

This seems pretty straightforward. I do see how it would be confusing if you consider being placed in reserves to be the same as deploying a flyer... which it's not.

Does the rule state that all units be deployed on the tabletop during deployment, or deployed normally?

It states deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Arriving from Reserves is deploying (albeit not during deployment).

Alternatively, if the Flyer has Hover, get a Skyshield to minimize arguments.

deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

The reserve rule for missions would also apply to the RWSF.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rule doesn't say "If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule."

It says that "All of the units in this detachment must either be placed in reserve or deployed as normal"

Or deployed as normal... It provides an option if not all of the units are reserved. That option is to do it the normal way. Referencing the missions the normal way is the standard method. The standard method allows for the flier to be placed in reserve.

Trystis wrote:
The reserve rule for missions would also apply to the RWSF.

Agreed. Its what allows you to choose to place units in REserve, instead of deploy(ing) normally

So you agree -a Flier, instead of deploying is placed into reserves. When one unit is placed in Reserves, EVERY units from the RWSF must be placed in Reserves, as per the restriction.

So if you include a flier in a RWSF, your entire army goes into reserves if that is your only formation. Meaning you auto lose end of game turn 1.

Glad we're in agreement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hell, you're even told if it is "impossible to deploy a unit" it gets put in reserves - meanign reserves CANNOT be deployment, because otherwise it would not be impossible to deploy them!

So, please. Explain how when you are told putting a unit in reserve is when you choose NOT to deploy then, or when it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy them, that this is somehow deployment? Page and graph please.

Oh, and as you missed it - a testimony to your accuracy - here is where I addressed impossible to deploy means you are placed in reserve

Meaning you didnt deploy. Because it was impossible to do so . So you have done something other than deploy. Even if it is "normal" for you to do this thing that isnt deploy, athis doesnt mean it is now "deploy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

Deployed, past tense of deploy, whcih is what you do prior to turn 1 in the deployment phase. If you choose NOT to deploy, you are placed in Reserves. This cannot possibly be "deployed as normal" otherwise you have deployed as normal or deployed as normal in the rule above (as you have just made deployed as normal equivalent to being placed in reserve)

"all of the units in this detachment" is the set of units to which the following requirement is placed. There is no allowance in this to have SOME units deploy and SOME units be placed in reserves, it is ALL or none



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, handily, by reading the rule correctly, you end up with

STRIKE AS ONE

The name of the rule

Not "some of you strike, I'll sit back in reserves"

If I must deploy but can't then it's impossible. When it's impossible it gets placed into reserves. Your argument doesn't address the impossible aspect of the situation. I just deploy the flier, it's impossible to do so. It goes into reserves. This is deploying normally and you have failed to show where it isn't deploying normally.

Deployed being past tense is where you have landed.... Lol. Well at what point of time is it the past tense of? Now, but I haven't started playing yet... 19 years from now, I guess reserve rolls are cool then. Lol

First the title of the rule doesn't change the rule. Secondly, the rule allows you to place them all and reserve and "strike as one" or to deeply normally. It's your choice if you want the bonus or not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
deployed as normal. A flyer is placed in reserves instead of "deploy"ing (BRB p135 states this unambiguously) and so if a flier is present, one of the untis has been placed in reserve. If one unti is placed in reserves, ALL untis must be placed in reserves, as per the formation rule.

Arriving From Reserves IS deploying as normal for a Flyer, though. Look it up. Arriving From Reserves is deploying, just not during deployment.

Nothing in that rule states that the entire detachment is deployed during deployment if one is, does it? Is the word "deployment" actually used in this rule?

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

Deployed, past tense of deploy, whcih is what you do prior to turn 1 in the deployment phase. If you choose NOT to deploy, you are placed in Reserves. This cannot possibly be "deployed as normal" otherwise you have deployed as normal or deployed as normal in the rule above (as you have just made deployed as normal equivalent to being placed in reserve)

"all of the units in this detachment" is the set of units to which the following requirement is placed. There is no allowance in this to have SOME units deploy and SOME units be placed in reserves, it is ALL or none

And do we have another reference of time in which to apply this past tense from? Is it Game Start? Turn 1? Temporal references mean nothing without a proper starting point.

So again, we are back to, Flyers deploying by Arriving From Reserves is normal for them until you can provide another reference point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And, handily, by reading the rule correctly, you end up with

STRIKE AS ONE

The name of the rule

Not "some of you strike, I'll sit back in reserves"

And if the names of a rule were how we were supposed to run things, we would get some VERY interesting interactions. Strike As One appears to be an optional capability, not a requirement. It is at this point I would remind you the board rule on definitions. The rule name is the same as giving the word before a definition. The rest that comes after is the definition of that rule.

I never claimed it did. I just pointed out that correctly reading the rule ALSO then meshes with the title of the rule. It helps with the "intent" question.

It isnt "where I have landed", it is parr of the rules. Have you accepted that fliers do not deploy yet? Just wondering.

There is no choice. You either deploy every unit or you place every unit in reserves. If you include a flier, every uinit must be in reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CHristoph - so you have decided that every unit must be placed in reserve OR placed in reserve?

As you have decided that placed in reserve is equivalent to "deployed normally"

Oh, and covered extensively befoer. Not a new argument

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/669920.page

I'm not saying that flyer do deploy before the beginning of the game. I have said numerous times that it's impossible to deploy a flyer then.

When it's impossible to deploy a flier it gets placed in reserve.

The rule doesn't state that every unit has to be deployed. It states that they are deployed as normal. It's always impossible to deploy a flier this way because of the fliers rules.(baring special rules). Because it's not possible to deploy a flier it goes into reserve. This how units are deployed normally. You have not disproved this.

Also, the rule states that either every unit has to be placed in reserved or be deployed normally, I didn't place every unit in reserves so I'm forced to deploy normally, and don't get to make us of the rule allowing the, all to come in on the second turn.

Discussed to death befor, so this should just be locked. Absolutely nothing new is being said.

The rule states every unit is deployed normally, or every unit is placed in reserves. If one unit is placed in reserves, every ither unit must be placed in reserves as well, as per the rule. If you don't do this, you break the strike as one rule.

It doesn't say that if one unit is placed in reserve then all of the unity are. It say that if you place every unit in reserve you get a special rule. It also states that units are deployed normally if you don't.

How are fliers deployed normally? They have to be deployed per the mission rules, but can't be deployed per their own rules. Normal deployment allows me to place some things in reserve, and requires flyers to be in reserve.

Fliers are ALWAYS impossible to deploy, this is normal. When some thing is impossible to deploy it goes into reserves. The strike as one rule DOES NOT require that if one unit is in reserves all units are. It requires that units are deployed normally (which would be how you do it if this rule wasn't present, In other word normal) OR place all units in reserve. Once again it's impossible to deploy a flier. There is a rule that address this impossibility. It places them in reserve. This is normal.

it hasn't been a discussion because you have ignored or been unable to refute why this isn't normal deployment for flyers, and if not describe what is normal deployment for flyers.

The first line requires that every unit is deployed normally, or every unit is placed in reserve. If every unit is placed in reserve you get a bonus. Two different requirements. If your reading were correct then the first line would have no function whatsoever. Luckily your reading isn't correct.

It is impossible to deploy them. Therefore they are not deployed, but instead placed in reserves. Gee, what part of the strike as one rule does that follow..oh wait. It follows the placed in reserves part.

I have proven that what is normal for a flyer is to be placed in reserves. This is not them being deployed. You continually ignore this, and seem to think that a flier "deploys" into reserves. This is clearly nonsense

So, do you think the first part of the rule has a function or not? Because so far you're stating it has no function, given you must deploy or place in reserves, there is no third place....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never claimed it did. I just pointed out that correctly reading the rule ALSO then meshes with the title of the rule. It helps with the "intent" question.

If you weren't claiming it, you were heavily implying that the title shapes the rule. You went over it quite vehemently several times.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no choice. You either deploy every unit or you place every unit in reserves. If you include a flier, every uinit must be in reserves.

The phrase "or deployed normally" does indicate a choice, though. Placing a unit in Reserves and having it deploy from Reserves is perfectly normal, especially when that unit is required to.

Without a time reference placing all of this during deployment or before the game starts, the term "deployed" is not excluding the detachment from partially deploying from Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Charistoph - so you have decided that every unit must be placed in reserve OR placed in reserve?

As you have decided that placed in reserve is equivalent to "deployed normally"

Sure if you want to misrepresent everything I just stated, you could say that.

"Deployed normally" indicates normal deployment behavior, without modification, as opposed to requiring all units being placed in Reserves. Being placed in Reserves to deploy later is "normal", and required for Flyers, so more than "normal".

The who,e rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not


So I summary, I will take the least complicated resolution of
1) following the written rule
2) having the written rule have some function and
3) following the clearly given intent of the rule, as stated in the title "strike as one"

If you truly believe they didn't mean you to strike as one, but in pieces, then there's not much that can be said

I don't ignore it. Placing them in reserves is a normal consequence of them being impossible to deploy.

I must either place all units in reserves, or they must be deployed normally. I never am excluded from placing some units in reserves if it is part of their normal deployment. Like it is for flyers. The flyer being forced into reserves doesn't force everything into reserves because the rule doesn't say that.

The rules for missions state I must deploy using the standard. This is how all units are deployed normally. Including flyers. This is the normal method and would be one used if you chose the option in strike as one.

You're inventing a non normal method and saying it's the only way units can be considered deployed. However, it's not the normal method for deploying units. The normal method would most likely be the deployment method specified by the mission.

The strike as one states you can deploy normally, what is normal? It would be the standard way of deployment just like the rule book missions. So the same methods would apply, unless you are saying the standard method isn't normal, and if it isn't what is?

This really sums it up quite well. 'Deployed as normal' does not mean 'every unit must be placed on the table', I really don't know how you can infer that from the reserves rule.

How do you know 'Strike as one' is a mandatory tactic for this formation? Maybe the don't always want to strike as one, because they are tactically smart.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The whole rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

So, you are placing an assumption on the temporal reference it is speaking of. Or is there a section of the rule that hasn't been quoted that literally places all deploying as normal during deployment?

And you are missing the point about Flyers. Flyers do not deploy normally when compared to an Infantry or Bike unit, but deploying from Reserves IS normal for Flyers. We aren't tasked with "deployed normally for infantry units", just "deployed normally". Flyers Arriving From Reserves IS normal for them. That IS their "normal" standard of deploying. Ignoring slow down from Difficult Terrain is not normal for Infantry, but is normal for Bikes. Understanding that which is "normal" for the unit in question is part of the issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not

Actually, I can since "deploying normally" does make allowance for each unit to be chosen. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise in the other rules of the game. Even more so, "normal" is not the same for every unit. A Fortification is "normally" deployed during deployment. An Infiltrating unit "deploys normally" after all units without the Infiltrate rule. An Infiltrating unit "normally" has the option to "deploy" from Outflank.

The key is understanding what is "normal" in every case. "Normally" a detachment is often split up with some deployed on the board and some in Reserves, especially where Flyers and units required to Deep Strike are concerned, not all on the table.

Your perspective of "normal" needs to be updated or supported. So far, you have not supported it with a quote.

So the first sentence of the rule is useless then?
Or instead the scope of "either" is "all units..." , as one single entity. So either (all units) are placed in reserve or (all units) are deployed normally.
Ok so is the rule "strike as one, ex let when we don't"? I'm interested in just how far people, are willing to twist a sensible rule to have an utterly different meaning.

Context is utter clear. When you choose to deploy or place in reserves, make one choice for all units. If you have a flier, and no sslp, you're tied to placing all in reserves.

This fits the actual rule, gives the actual rule function, and even fits the name of the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The whole rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

So, you are placing an assumption on the temporal reference it is speaking of. Or is there a section of the rule that hasn't been quoted that literally places all deploying as normal during deployment?

And you are missing the point about Flyers. Flyers do not deploy normally when compared to an Infantry or Bike unit, but deploying from Reserves IS normal for Flyers. We aren't tasked with "deployed normally for infantry units", just "deployed normally". Flyers Arriving From Reserves IS normal for them. That IS their "normal" standard of deploying. Ignoring slow down from Difficult Terrain is not normal for Infantry, but is normal for Bikes. Understanding that which is "normal" for the unit in question is part of the issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not

Actually, I can since "deploying normally" does make allowance for each unit to be chosen. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise in the other rules of the game. Even more so, "normal" is not the same for every unit. A Fortification is "normally" deployed during deployment. An Infiltrating unit "deploys normally" after all units without the Infiltrate rule. An Infiltrating unit "normally" has the option to "deploy" from Outflank.

The key is understanding what is "normal" in every case. "Normally" a detachment is often split up with some deployed on the board and some in Reserves, especially where Flyers and units required to Deep Strike are concerned, not all on the table.

Your perspective of "normal" needs to be updated or supported. So far, you have not supported it with a quote.

I have proven it

Again, you are making the claim that the first part of the rule HAS NO FUNCTION. Please clarify that you truly mean that they wrote something purely for the hell of it, and it has no meaning.

Can you agree to that?

Fliers are "normally" placed in reserves. That is how they are "normally" handled. When do you make the choice ? Before the game in the deployment phase, or is this simply an issue with you missing the context of when you normally "choose" to deploy or place something in reserves? It's pretty damn clear

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have proven it

Not with a quote, you have not. You are attempting to make a solid definition of "deployed normally" as to being "deployed on the tabletop during deployment". This has yet to be proven with anything from the rulebook that you have provided.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you are making the claim that the first part of the rule HAS NO FUNCTION. Please clarify that you truly mean that they wrote something purely for the hell of it, and it has no meaning.

Incorrect. The purpose is to establish an optional condition for the rest of the rule. If you want to use the rest of the rule, you must place all units from the detachment in Reserves. You do not HAVE to use Strike As One any more than First Huntsman by not having the Warlord in the Detachment. That is why the second sentence starts with, "If placed in Reserve", as opposed to the expectation that it will be.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fliers are "normally" placed in reserves. That is how they are "normally" handled. When do you make the choice ? Before the game in the deployment phase, or is this simply an issue with you missing the context of when you normally "choose" to deploy or place something in reserves? It's pretty damn clear

This "normal" decision is made when selecting the unit. This does not mean what is "normal" for the Flyer is "normal" for the rest of the detachment? No. So placing that same expectation on others would NOT be deploying "normal".

Any other consideration is a Tactical question, not a Rules question.

Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

There is a difference requiring all of a detachment to start in Reserves, though. And there are often unneeded rules put in place, too. Flying Monstrous Creatures Swooping near an Obelisk need to take a Dangerous Terrain Test, but automatically pass it because they have Move Through Cover.

It could have been worded better, true, but nothing in there still changes what is "normal" for a Flyer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

Context. Cannot use it without it. Nothing has been stated in this rule regarding deployment. This is an assumption only, with no literal basis in fact.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

It is a choice for all units. ALL the units in the detachment in Reserves, or deployed normally. Flyers are still in Reserves NORMALLY.

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

There is a difference requiring all of a detachment to start in Reserves, though. And there are often unneeded rules put in place, too. Flying Monstrous Creatures Swooping near an Obelisk need to take a Dangerous Terrain Test, but automatically pass it because they have Move Through Cover.

So you believe the rule has no function then, agreed?

The omission of the first line has no bearing on the second. It gives exactly the same bonus if the whole detachment is placed in reserve.

What the first line DOES DO is make you place the whole formation either in reserve or deploy it. All units are deployed. Or all units are placed in reserve. If the choice is the second, then you come in turn two.

It could have been worded better, true, but nothing in there still changes what is "normal" for a Flyer.

Normally fliers are placed in reserves. Abnormally they hover on a sslp

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

Context. Cannot use it without it. Nothing has been stated in this rule regarding deployment. This is an assumption only, with no literal basis in fact.

When in the game do you choose to deploy or place a unit in reserves?

That is when this choice is made


This is the period the rule refers to. If you disagree, you are ignoring the context of the rule. So, do you disagree?
If you disagree, offer an alternative context.

That is when you have deployed normally, or you have been placed in reserves instead of deploying normally. Because we know for a fact being placed in reserves is done instead of deploying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

It is a choice for all units. ALL the units in the detachment in Reserves, or deployed normally. Flyers are still in Reserves NORMALLY.

OR deployed normally. Not AND deployed normally.

EVEN IF your contention ere true, you have not complied. Because the flier was placed in reserves, and the other units were not. So you break the rule requiring all units pick the first, as a single set of objects, or they pick the second, as a single set.

The units in this formation are oranges. All oranges must be eaten, or saved for later. If some oranges are eaten now, and some oranges are saved for later, did you comply with the rule?

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

Done and done, throughout this thread

You are ignoring that your decision binds all units to the same state: deploy or do not deploy. (Not placed in reserves or placed in reserves) and are pretending you can have some in reserve and some deployed. Your argument entirely ignores the first sentence as having meaning. Your argument ignores the context of this rule, which is restricted to the deployment phase. Your argument ignores that you are equating placed in reserves with deployed normally, when the rule presents them as alternatives

And so on

Your argument is proven wrong.

I think you might be misunderstanding the context based on the title of the rule.

You can interpret as:
A) The choice is Strike as One reserves version or Strike as One ground version.

B) The choice is Strike as One from Reserves or just deploy normally/standard deployment without striking as one.

Why I think this is choice B is because they had to add the normal deployment option to the formation because without it you would automatically lose any game if it was your only formation in the army and as far as I am aware, all formations should be able to be used by themselves. Or at least I am not aware of any that don't work on their own in some fashion.

Deathwing by itself doesn't work as everything must start in reserve (and even stipulates that Dreads in Pod come in with the rest of the formation).

Legion of the Damned doesn't work by itself since everything has to start in reserve (unless you play one of the special missions where they come in Turn 1).

Ravenwing Strike Force doesn't work if you take a Flyer as everything has to start in Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe the rule has no function then, agreed?

That is not what I said. I was responding to the fact that YOU said I said it has no function. Simple fact. Either they all start in Reserves or get deployed normally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The omission of the first line has no bearing on the second. It gives exactly the same bonus if the whole detachment is placed in reserve.

Relevant still. The first sets a condition for the detachment, and then the second is based on the status of the first. That is what I actually said earlier.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What the first line DOES DO is make you place the whole formation either in reserve or deploy it. All units are deployed. Or all units are placed in reserve. If the choice is the second, then you come in turn two.

Incorrect. All in Reserves, or progress normally. If you do go all in, you arrive Turn 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
When in the game do you choose to deploy or place a unit in reserves?

That is when this choice is made

Not for Flyers, unless you have a certain Fortification handy. Not for Drop Pods ever. Those are chosen when the unit is purchased before deployment.

But still, does not change the fact, that when deploying normally, the option to put in Reserves is still available and can be deployed later. A specific time frame is not set in this sentence or before it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This is the period the rule refers to. If you disagree, you are ignoring the context of the rule. So, do you disagree?
If you disagree, offer an alternative context.

This is an assumption. There is nothing stated in this sentence or before this sentence which requires deploying during deployment, especially units which must start the game in Reserve. No restriction against individual units being put in Reserves "as normal" is ever stated.

No quote, no support. No support, no argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR deployed normally. Not AND deployed normally.

No restriction against Reserves deploying is mentioned for individual units. Putting some units in Reserves is the normal option for deploying detachments. If you disagree, quote the rulebook.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
EVEN IF your contention ere true, you have not complied. Because the flier was placed in reserves, and the other units were not. So you break the rule requiring all units pick the first, as a single set of objects, or they pick the second, as a single set.

Flyers are not the whole detachment, just part of the detachment. And it is normal for them to be deployed from Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The units in this formation are oranges. All oranges must be eaten, or saved for later. If some oranges are eaten now, and some oranges are saved for later, did you comply with the rule?

Yes. They were eaten or saved for later.

Not a proper comparison, though.

Each batch of oranges must be shipped together, if they are not shipped together, they get parceled out by the box per normal. If some people have a standing agreement to take so many boxes of a batch when not shipped together. This agreement requires shipping out the boxes.

Did you violate the rules by shipping out boxes when not shipping out the batch?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

Done and done, throughout this thread

Where? You focus only on one line without quoting anything. You have not demonstrated anything restating what is normal for a Flyer. You have not quoted anything stating that this rule is in deployment. You have relied on assumptions, nothing more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are ignoring that your decision binds all units to the same state: deploy or do not deploy. (Not placed in reserves or placed in reserves) and are pretending you can have some in reserve and some deployed. Your argument entirely ignores the first sentence as having meaning. Your argument ignores the context of this rule, which is restricted to the deployment phase. Your argument ignores that you are equating placed in reserves with deployed normally, when the rule presents them as alternatives

Incorrect. My decision is between "all in" or "normal play" for the detachment. You are attempting to redefine "normal play" without providing any support for it whatsoever. Individual units can be placed in Reserves when a detachment deploys as normal. If you disagree, please present where in the rulebook it states otherwise, or where it states "on the tabletop" in Strike As One.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Ravenwing Strike Force doesn't work if you take a Flyer as everything has to start in Reserves.

The language for RSF and DWSF do not match in requirements. Normal deployment is not an option for the DWSF.

Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

From Reserves.

How does a bike normally deploy?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

From Reserves.

How does a bike normally deploy?

Normally, it is deployed in the controlling player's table half. Unless the player decides not to deploy and instead places the unit in reserves.

Christoph - remove the first sentence

Now, does the second still function in terms of giving a bonus if every unit is placed in reserve? Yes or no

You fail to heed the context, or the text of the rule. I refuse to continue this dialogue of the deaf. You are stating black is white, and think a wall of quotes will suffice to "win"

The set of all units is "A"

A must be in reserve or A. must be deployed. You have no permission to split A, according to the actual text of the actual rule given.

Your argument lacks any support, as my support has been given already.

Bye.

Well that escalated quickly

The RAW arguments have been made over and over. I just wanted to assure the OP that, judging by my experience, he shouldn't have a problem finding an opponent that will allow him to play it as he understands it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - remove the first sentence

Now, does the second still function in terms of giving a bonus if every unit is placed in reserve? Yes or no

Yes, it still does. Now, the following question, what if only some are in Reserves and not all the units in the Detachment, without that first sentence, would it still work?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You fail to heed the context,

There is no further context to actually use. Context would require more to be written then has been discussed. That would mean that it is written elsewhere. Is all deploying only done in deployment? No, it is not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
or the text of the rule.

No, I have been recognizing what "normal" means and its relationship to the unit types in question. You have been trying to reterm what "normally" means to be one exclusive method for all units, which does not currently apply. Flyers and Infantry do not normally deploy the same way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I refuse to continue this dialogue of the deaf. You are stating black is white, and think a wall of quotes will suffice to "win"

Incorrect. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The set of all units is "A"

A must be in reserve or A. must be deployed. You have no permission to split A, according to the actual text of the actual rule given.

Your statement here is a missing a key component. Here, let me correct:

"A must be in Reserves, or A must be deployed normally."

Normal deployment for A IS splitting it between tabletop and Reserves, especially when certain units are required to be in Reserves.

If you do think splitting a detachment between tabletop and Reserves is not normal, especially when specific units require it, can you provide a quote to support it?

Honestly, judging from grammar and word usage. It sounds like someone is way too close to this debate to be taken seriously. When their Strawman falls to pieces, they try and rebuild it with new yet somehow worse straw rather than contemplate that their argument may in fact be, a piece of garbage.
But i won't name names. Just consider the following....
Would you play against someone who couldn't understand the concept of the words "normally"?

Christoph -

not doing quote wall any longer. Too fragmented

1) Yes, because the context (gee, that word again!) is clear as to how the automatic turn up applies to.

So again, your claim results in the first sentence having no function. My fclaim - that it requires every unit to be placed in reserves, or every unit to not be placed in reserves, the one supported by the text, DOES make this rule have a function

AND

it has the benefit of fitting the name of the rule. Strike as One. Not Strike as One, unless we dont want to.

2) Context - when in the game do you choose betwen placing a unit in Reserves or deploying them normally? THere is only one time you do so.

That is the context of this rule.

You say otherwise, but cannot actually show how you arrive there without handwaving.

3) I am not redefining "Normally" at all. I am just paying attention to the whole rule, and not the single word you are obsessed with

The whole rule talks about being placed in reserve as WELL as "deployed normally". You know the thing that happens to flyers? If you are claiming "deployed normally" somehow has no bearing to the deployment phase - flying in the face of the written rules context - then you are claiming the "either" resolves to "Placed in Reserves or Placed in Reserves", as you are claiming the deployment during the game somehow is the "deployed normally" (because you ignore the context of the rule) and this STILL has absolutely no affect ont he requirement that EVERY unit in the formation has to make the SAME choice (forced or otherwise) or you break the rule - you know, the rule your argument ignores?

4) Flyers are normally Placed in Reserves. They may then be deployed from Deepstrike reserve OR Reserves, but that is after the context of the rule and is therefore irrelevant to the question at hand - whcih requires you to make a choice of either being placed in reserve OR being deployed normally, which is deing deployed normally on the table / infiltrate during the later step. There is no other context that is relevant here.

But it doesnt matter. Youve made your mind up - to ignore context, to ignore the way the rule is written, to render one rule functionally useless, and to render two very different statements as functional equivalents. I have no idea why you have decided to make so many changes to the written rule, but hey, iplease feel free to play any houserule you like

Just dont claim its the actual rules

Nronoxx - noone has created a strawman yet. There have been posters make claims regarding strawmen, but dont understand the term. If youc oudl point it out it would be helpful, as opposed to passive aggressive gak. Ta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Yes, because the context (gee, that word again!) is clear as to how the automatic turn up applies to.

So again, your claim results in the first sentence having no function. My fclaim - that it requires every unit to be placed in reserves, or every unit to not be placed in reserves, the one supported by the text, DOES make this rule have a function

But it does not fit the actual words of the sentence. "Deployed normally" is not "not placed in Reserves" for every unit, and that is the issue with your case. You are claiming a translation that has not been supported by any other presented rule before now. With no conversion/translation, you have no context to support your case.

it has the benefit of fitting the name of the rule. Strike as One. Not Strike as One, unless we dont want to.

Again, name means little, nor is it a requirement to use this rule due to the "or" and "if" clauses presented.

2) Context - when in the game do you choose betwen placing a unit in Reserves or deploying them normally? THere is only one time you do so.

That is the context of this rule.

You say otherwise, but cannot actually show how you arrive there without handwaving.

Without a quote from somewhere else to support this context, it is only an assumption. It is normal for a Flyer to deploy from Reserves, it is not normal for a Bike. That is the context I am operating from since this sentence does not state "deployed normally during deployment".

3) I am not redefining "Normally" at all. I am just paying attention to the whole rule, and not the single word you are obsessed with

The whole rule talks about being placed in reserve as WELL as "deployed normally". You know the thing that happens to flyers? If you are claiming "deployed normally" somehow has no bearing to the deployment phase - flying in the face of the written rules context - then you are claiming the "either" resolves to "Placed in Reserves or Placed in Reserves", as you are claiming the deployment during the game somehow is the "deployed normally" (because you ignore the context of the rule) and this STILL has absolutely no affect ont he requirement that EVERY unit in the formation has to make the SAME choice (forced or otherwise) or you break the rule - you know, the rule your argument ignores?

Yes, you are redefining "normally" to try and force an unstated context. Can you demonstrate how deploying from Reserves is not normal for a Flyer?

And no, I have never stated that deployment is ongoing throughout the game. That is a misrepresentation based on putting my case in to your unsupported paradigm.

Deployment is finished when Scout redeploying and Harlequin/Deceiver redeploying is done. Moving On From Reserves, Deep Strike, and Outflank, all describe the placement of units on the field as deploying. So deploying does continue during the game so long as anything is in Reserves.

4) Flyers are normally Placed in Reserves. They may then be deployed from Deepstrike reserve OR Reserves, but that is after the context of the rule and is therefore irrelevant to the question at hand - whcih requires you to make a choice of either being placed in reserve OR being deployed normally, which is deing deployed normally on the table / infiltrate during the later step. There is no other context that is relevant here.

You have provided nothing to support that deploying on the tabletop during deployment is normal for all units, including Flyers. Without that, you have no case or context to apply.

Look it up. Quote it. Prove your case with evidence from outside one sentence instead of tirades and accusations.

When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

The choice is made initially during the deployment phase.

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve" pg 589

When you deploy during the deployment phase you have the option to place a unit in reserves.

What is the difference between "Deployed normally" and "must deploy" from the mission rule? The mission states you MUST DEPLOY so no reserves by your logic.... Unless of course placing something in reserves is part of deployment. Let's look at the deployment section of the book again.

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve"

You claim that deploy requires that a unit is on the table at the beginning, but this context is not backed up by the rules. If it was it would be impossible to place anything in reserves as the mission rules require for units to deploy.

That is not my logic. Which I pointout every time you bring this up. And every time you ignore it.

The mission special rule Reserves modifies thus requirement by giving an additional permission. For the nth time of telling.

Oh and nice attempt at a caveat. This choice IS made during the deployment phase.

Which is when flier is placed into reserves, so it is not deployED at this point

Oh look, context proven.

So every single unit must make choice A, or choice B. You are not allowed to mix the two statuses. The presence of a flier forces everything else to be placed in reserves, as the rule requires.

Thus, in common with a fair few formations, you can auto lose turn one. Try not to do so.

The reserve rule would apply to RWSF as well. It is how to deploy normally for the mission. Thus would be included in deploy normally option of the strike as one rule.

I made no attempt at a caveat I quoted an entire rule section from the rule book description of deployment. You have the option to place units in reserve.

The units are DEPLOYed during the DEPLOYment phase which per the deployment section of the rule book allows for them to be placed in reserve

Other formations don't offer the ability to deploy normally like this one does. So if a player choose to deploy normally with a dark talon they don't auto lose.

The choice isn't made "initially". It is just "made". That is the point it is made.

At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Deployed on the board or being placed in reserves are both part of deployment. This is stated in the section where deployment is discussed.

The rule on 135 doesn't prove anything in regards to deployment because it's a rule for reserves, not for how to deploy. You use the deployment process provided in the deployment section of the rule book for that. This provides the option for reserved.

Even if that didn't provide the option the reserves the rule you referenced also has an exception that if it's impossible to deploy on table it goes to reserves automatically. There is no other option.

There is no RAW that requires the RWSF to place all units in reserve if one is. The strike as one rule requires you to choose EITHER to place all units in reserve OR to deploy normally. RAW requires me to choose between the two, one option provides a benefit the other is normal. Normal isn't a limitation, it's how things are done if no special circumstances interfere.

When anybody is deploying they look at the deployment rules for the mission being played. This is normal deployment. You are advocating a special form of deployment with special limitations. That would not be normal, and thus breaks the RAW.

I would like to recommend that you form your argument based on what the relevant rules are as opposed to trying to twist the rules into supporting an argument you have already chosen.

Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

nosferatu1001 wrote:When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

For Flyers, the choice NOT to be placed in Reserves is made during Deployment. Normally there is no decision and their normal determination is to be deployed from Reserves even before deployment begins.

For everything else, this determination is made during deployment.

Now, please indicate the timing requirement in this introductory sentence to provide such context of "deploying normally" to be exclusive to deployment?

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Incorrect. The two options are Placed in Reserves or deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Period. If you believe otherwise, please indicate where in the rulebook or the Dark Talon rules it states otherwise.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Incorrect, because deploying from Reserves is normal for the Dark Talon. In order for it to be RAW, temporal context must be firmly established at the determination of deploying normally is stated. It is not. You are only assuming this because placing something in Reserves normally happens in deployment. No other time code is required after the "or". And deployment will probably not be the last time the Dark Talon is placed in Reserves, either. Should all the units then join the Dark Talon in Ongoing Reserves when it leaves the tabletop?

Happyjew wrote:Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

It says "deployed normally". Is there a time frame literally associated with this "deployed normally"? No, there is not. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. Just because you have a Flyer does not require all units to be in Reserves if you choose not to use Strike As One.

Remember all, deploying is not always done in deployment. Deploying is what happens when you Move On From Reserves as well as when placing units initially before the game begins.

 Happyjew wrote:
Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

The rule on 135 provides an example of deploying and what to do if that's not possible. However the word deploy isn't a rule it's a reference to a process. The description of that process allow reserving as part of the deployment process.

Deploying normally allows reserves. Nothing you have shown has disproved that when deploying you cant place units in reserve.

When deploying you look at the deployment rules for the mission being played, and deploy as instructed. This is normal, not being able to reserve is not normal (depending on mission rules). You are required to use the normal rules if you don't reserve everything.

 Charistoph] wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

For Flyers, the choice NOT to be placed in Reserves is made during Deployment. Normally there is no decision and their normal determination is to be deployed from Reserves even before deployment begins.

For everything else, this determination is made during deployment.

Now, please indicate the timing requirement in this introductory sentence to provide such context of "deploying normally" to be exclusive to deployment?

the context is clear, because this is a GENERAL RULE for ALL UNITS in the formation.

When do ALL UNITS make the choice between being placed in reserve and being deployED normally?

During deployment

At no other time

None

Thus this is the only time during the game this rule is referring to. And, handily, Flyers are ALSO chosen to be Placed In reserves at this point.

Is there a reason you keep refusing to use the term Placed in Reserves? Is it becuase it undermines your point you are so utterly failing to support?

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Incorrect. The two options are Placed in Reserves or deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Period. If you believe otherwise, please indicate where in the rulebook or the Dark Talon rules it states otherwise.

incorrect. Flyers are PLACED IN RESERVE. This is a truism.

And it is deployED normally. At the point in time the choice is made, the flyers have yet to deploy. Thus they can only be option a - placed in reserve.

I have never stated they dont normally deploy from reserves;. I am stating that AT THIS POINT they are place in reserves, and AT THIS POINT all units must EITHER be placed in reserve OR all units must be deployED normally. Flyers are not deployED at this point, they have been placed in reserves

Because tthat is literally true. They are NOT deployed, therefore they are placed in Reserves. Because that is what rules on page 135 explicitly state. You are not deployed at this point. You are placed in reserves

Care to disagree with an actual rule yet? I notice you are lacking ANY rules support.

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

Not my assertion. My assertion is that the actual context for the rule tells you when "placed in reserves or deployed normallly" is referring to

the Deployment phase of the game

At that point NO flyer bar a SSLP flyer can be deployED, it can only be placed in Reserves

Can you at least agree to that fact? Trying to break down your error so you can see it...

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Incorrect, because deploying from Reserves is normal for the Dark Talon. In order for it to be RAW, temporal context must be firmly established at the determination of deploying normally is stated. It is not. You are only assuming this because placing something in Reserves normally happens in deployment. No other time code is required after the "or". And deployment will probably not be the last time the Dark Talon is placed in Reserves, either. Should all the units then join the Dark Talon in Ongoing Reserves when it leaves the tabletop?

Incorrect. At the time the choice is made, theyhave not deployED and therefore must be placed in reserve, as the rule states.

if they are placed in Reserve, then all other units in the formaiton must ALSO be placed in Reserve, as the rule statees

Temporal context is firmly establised, as there is ONE period, JUST ONE, where you place units in reserve OR they are deployed normally. That is deployment

You have absolutely no support, none whatsoever, to claim this context refers to any other period of time in the game. Your continued insistence otherwise, with NO rules support, NO contextual support whatsoever, and a blind repetition that you may only consider flyers as "deployed normally" when in fact at this point they are NOT deployed at all, as page 135 firmly states, is asinine.

This rule refers firmly to one single time period, and you know this to be true. So just admit your error gracefully, and we can move on.

Charistoph wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

It says "deployed normally". Is there a time frame literally associated with this "deployed normally"? No, there is not. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. Just because you have a Flyer does not require all units to be in Reserves if you choose not to use Strike As One.

There is a time frame when a choice is made between being Placed in reserves and being deployed normally, however. Every flyer passes this time frame and is Placed in Reserves, and every unit that deploys on the board before turn 1 also hits this time frame. Deployment. There is only ONE possible time that fits this context, and your insistence that this is not true, with no rules support at all, is either a wilful misreading of the rules, or dishonesty.

Charistoph wrote:Remember all, deploying is not always done in deployment. Deploying is what happens when you Move On From Reserves as well as when placing units initially before the game begins.

Remember, the rule does not care what happens later in the game. It only cares what happens during deployment

Remember, the rule is Strike as One, not Strike in as many pieces as Charistoph thinks correct on any given day

It's kinda funny watching Nosferatu's grammar devolve further and further with each post. One can only imagine how frustrated they must be; they've realized they are arguing a slippery slope, see no lifeline, and as a result simply lose of trace of respect for the other's in the thread and doesn't even bother to check their spelling....

rule 1, reported

What slippery slope am I arguing? Or this is another fallacy you know the name of, but dont understand what it actually means?

@nosferatu1001

I appreciate the work you placed in writing your wall of opinion. However, none of that demonstrates why the process I have described isn't normal.

I have demonstrated how the process you have described isn't normal.

RAW is that it must be normal, not your funky version of deployment.

It would be greatly appreciated if everyone would conduct their rules discussions with regard for calm and polite language.

Trystis wrote:
@nosferatu1001

I appreciate the work you placed in writing your wall of opinion. However, none of that demonstrates why the process I have described isn't normal.

I have demonstrated how the process you have described isn't normal.

RAW is that it must be normal, not your funky version of deployment.

Not a wall of opinion. RAW

Your flyer is placed in reserve, and later on deploys

However at the point the rule is concerned, you must either place everything in reserve, or everything must be deployed normally. It is impossible for anon-hover flyer to be deployed normally during Deployment, as it must be placed in reserve. As such every unit in the formation must also be placed in reserve

This is RAW, based on the actual rules. Yoiu have presented no rules to back up your assertions, and thus to follow the tenets, mark your posts "HYWPI", as they are not the rules, just your houserule.

Strike as one does not require all units to be on the board, and it doesn't require that if some units are in reserve they all are. You are adding this. It is not in the rule. You can't really make things up and expect people to call it RAW, as that part that you made up isn't written...

It requires that they are deployed normally if that option is chosen. What you have described again is not being deployed as normal. You are creating a funky version of deployment with false restrictions. RAW is to use normal deployment If that options is chosen. Your argument relies on redefining normal in order to prevent reserves from being used.

I have shown that the option to reserve is available every time deployment is mentioned, and I have shown that strike as one offers the option for normal deployment. Normal deployment which includes being able to use reserves. When you eliminate reserves you are also preventing normal deployment. You would be breaking the rule.

I don't need to mark it as HYWPI, my stance actually uses the words provided in the rules with out adding or subtracting them as you have been doing, Also I don't play ravenwing so I don't really have a stake in this that would necessitate a house rule.

Actually the rule does state this. This is why the rule starts "every unit in this formation"

Every unit, not just some.

If you dont read the rule correctly, then you end up with the first sentence having absolutley no impact whatsoever; because at the end of dpeloyment units WILl either be in reserve or deployed. Thats just how a game works.

It stretches credulity to claim that a rule has no function, simply becuse you dont like the consequence of that function

Your argument is refuted, because it ignores the context of the rule, the reuqirement of the rule in question, and even ignores that one option is "placed in reserve", becuase by acknowledging that optoin it faltally undermines your argument re context

The context is clear, the rule is clear; if you take a flier, the entire formation MUST start in reserve alongside the flier. this Is RAW, plain and simple.

AND, even better - RAW matches the clear intenet.

strike as one

Not

strike in several pieces

EITHER every unit:
Is in reserves
OR
Is deployed normally.

Normal deployment allows reserves (depending on mission), so fliers could end up in reserve. No where does the rule require all units to be in reserve if one is. Requiring that would not be normal deployment.

My interpretation uses the words in the rules... I'm not adding anything to them I'm using the information they provide.
Yours attempts to infer additional meaning and requirements that are not actually part of the rule to support a failing argument. You can't infer things that aren't there and claim it as RAW.

The title of the rules is not relevant. Just like unit or weapon fluff. It maybe fun to read, but only phrasing of the rule matters.

I'd just like to thank you for your effort Trystis.. It's really quite annoying how Nosferatu claims that every one of his arguments is RAW - seriously dude, if RAW were that clear we wouldn't have a 4 page discussion.

Also stop using the name of the rule to infer intent. Strike as One could just as well be an optional tactic used by this strike force when appropriate, and sometimes they'll not use it and deploy normally.

The rule serves no purpose unless all units are deployed or all units are in reserve. Any other interpretation requires no rules whatsoever as that is deployment per the BRB. The word All is key here. Not part, All.

I have a question, for those that disagree with Nos, how would the rule need to be phrased for his interpretation to be correct? And Nos, for those that disagree with you, what would the rule state for them to be correct? For me to agree with Nos's detractors, the ENTIRE first section of Strike As One would be removed and the rule would just state that units in reserve arrive automatically from reserve on Turn 2. It would also have a different name, like Timely Arrival. If you want to split up the detachment, go ahead and put a nice black Sharpie line through the entire top portion of the rule and leave the second part in place. The rule serves no purpose unless All of the units do one thing or All of the units do the other. Period.

Trystis wrote:
EITHER every unit:
Is in reserves
OR
Is deployed normally.

Normal deployment allows reserves (depending on mission), so fliers could end up in reserve. No where does the rule require all units to be in reserve if one is. Requiring that would not be normal deployment.

My interpretation uses the words in the rules... I'm not adding anything to them I'm using the information they provide.
Yours attempts to infer additional meaning and requirements that are not actually part of the rule to support a failing argument. You can't infer things that aren't there and claim it as RAW.

The title of the rules is not relevant. Just like unit or weapon fluff. It maybe fun to read, but only phrasing of the rule matters.

I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:the context is clear, because this is a GENERAL RULE for ALL UNITS in the formation.

When do ALL UNITS make the choice between being placed in reserve and being deployED normally?

During deployment

At no other time

None

Thus this is the only time during the game this rule is referring to. And, handily, Flyers are ALSO chosen to be Placed In reserves at this point.

Is there a reason you keep refusing to use the term Placed in Reserves? Is it becuase it undermines your point you are so utterly failing to support?

Incorrect. The only time a determination for Flyers to be not placed in Reserves is if there is a Skyshield in the Deployment Zone. Otherwise, by default it starts deployment as Placed in Reserves waiting to be Deployed From Reserves. Drop Pods do not even have this as an option. They MUST deploy from Reserves.

If I am incorrect in this, please quote and reference the sentence that states otherwise.

I have not used "Placed in Reserves" because we are talking about how the unit is "deployed normally". And it is normal for a Flyer to be Deployed From Reserves. I thought that would be more obvious than your claim of context that "deployed normally" only refers to deployment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:incorrect. Flyers are PLACED IN RESERVE. This is a truism.

And it is deployED normally. At the point in time the choice is made, the flyers have yet to deploy. Thus they can only be option a - placed in reserve.

I have never stated they dont normally deploy from reserves;. I am stating that AT THIS POINT they are place in reserves, and AT THIS POINT all units must EITHER be placed in reserve OR all units must be deployED normally. Flyers are not deployED at this point, they have been placed in reserves

Because tthat is literally true. They are NOT deployed, therefore they are placed in Reserves. Because that is what rules on page 135 explicitly state. You are not deployed at this point. You are placed in reserves

Care to disagree with an actual rule yet? I notice you are lacking ANY rules support.

You have yet to provide an actual rule stating that this "deployed normally" only refers to deployment. You are operating on an assumption of time based on when things are normally placed in Reserves.

Guess what, deployment isn't the only time a unit is placed in Reserves. Read up on Ongoing Reserves, Deep Strike Mishap, and Flyer's rules on Leaving Combat Airspace, for more information. And that isn't worrying about other codex rules which may do other funky things with units and Reserves like the Eldar Swooping Hawks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

Not my assertion. My assertion is that the actual context for the rule tells you when "placed in reserves or deployed normallly" is referring to

the Deployment phase of the game

Yes, that is the assertion to which I speak. Why did you not understand this? What are the words that literally speak to "deployed normally" being 100% in deployment, especially with a few units in these Roles which are required to start in Reserves to be deployed later?

Your assertion is flawed by lack of written words to support the context you believe is in play.

Being in Reserves is not deployed. I have never stated otherwise. I have issue with your continued statement that "deployed normally" carries a temporal requirement of deployment without any other statements to provide such a context.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Incorrect. At the time the choice is made, theyhave not deployED and therefore must be placed in reserve, as the rule states.

The choice is made during army list development. And it really isn't much of a choice. You have to work to make anything else to be a choice with Flyers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:if they are placed in Reserve, then all other units in the formaiton must ALSO be placed in Reserve, as the rule statees

Incorrect. No time stamp is associated with "deployed normally". Deploying from Reserves is quite normal for a Flyer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Temporal context is firmly establised, as there is ONE period, JUST ONE, where you place units in reserve OR they are deployed normally. That is deployment

Flyers and Drop Pods are determined to be in Reserves in army list creation. This is not a time to be determining if Bikers are in Reserves. If a Flyer goes in to Ongoing Reserves, does that mean the entire detachment must also go in to Reserves, too? No. This context is only your assertion, nothing more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have absolutely no support, none whatsoever, to claim this context refers to any other period of time in the game. Your continued insistence otherwise, with NO rules support, NO contextual support whatsoever, and a blind repetition that you may only consider flyers as "deployed normally" when in fact at this point they are NOT deployed at all, as page 135 firmly states, is asinine.

This rule refers firmly to one single time period, and you know this to be true. So just admit your error gracefully, and we can move on.

Without a written statement, I do not know your assertion regarding this time frame to be true. So far, I only see it as a fabrication in your mind. At which point, I am trying to prove a negative. How can I provide any other support of "it is not there" when it is not there?

The only other thing I can say is, it is normal for a bike to be deployed during deployment and it is normal for a Flyer to be deployed from Reserves. Anything else would not be normal, so not fulfilling the direction for the unit to be "deployed normally."

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is a time frame when a choice is made between being Placed in reserves and being deployed normally, however. Every flyer passes this time frame and is Placed in Reserves, and every unit that deploys on the board before turn 1 also hits this time frame. Deployment. There is only ONE possible time that fits this context, and your insistence that this is not true, with no rules support at all, is either a wilful misreading of the rules, or dishonesty.

Incorrect that this decision requires all to be "deployed normally" all at the same time. No temporal reference is given as a requirement which means it is note a Written Rule, therefore only your assertion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember, the rule does not care what happens later in the game. It only cares what happens during deployment

Quote it then. You have as yet to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember, the rule is Strike as One, not Strike in as many pieces as Charistoph thinks correct on any given day

Remember, the name of a rule has no bearing on its reality.

Remember, that this rule is optional with "or" and "if" statements associated with it, not a requirement.

casvalremdeikun wrote:The rule serves no purpose unless all units are deployed or all units are in reserve. Any other interpretation requires no rules whatsoever as that is deployment per the BRB. The word All is key here. Not part, All.

Incorrect. The rule serves no purpose unless all units are in Reserves. Automatically arriving from Reserves on Turn 2 is impossible if any or all units are on the table.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I have a question, for those that disagree with Nos, how would the rule need to be phrased for his interpretation to be correct? And Nos, for those that disagree with you, what would the rule state for them to be correct? For me to agree with Nos's detractors, the ENTIRE first section of Strike As One would be removed and the rule would just state that units in reserve arrive automatically from reserve on Turn 2. It would also have a different name, like Timely Arrival. If you want to split up the detachment, go ahead and put a nice black Sharpie line through the entire top portion of the rule and leave the second part in place. The rule serves no purpose unless All of the units do one thing or All of the units do the other. Period.

As already stated: a timeframe of deployment for "deployed normally" must be established within the rule itself in order for his interpretation to be correct. Alternatively, an indication that they must all be deployed or all in Reserves when the game begins would also apply. Neither is the case, though, much less anything that Nos has provided.

If the first sentence is removed, then any unit put in Reserves, regardless of what has been deployed during deployment, would be able to arrive on Turn 2. The stipulation that all must be in Reserves is to activate the second sentence which starts "If in Reserves..."

But again also is the simple fact that Deploying From Reserves is deploying normally for a Flyer.

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

Except the fliers are placed in reserve. So you are saying they fulfil both criteria

Oh, and they're not deployed normally. At the time the rule is invoked, they are not deployed at all. Instead they are placed in reserves

Fragile - exactly. It's all or nothing. If you butcher the rule as others have done, then the first line - which gives a restriction - doesn't function as a restriction. It in fact has no function at all.

It can be entirely omitted and nothing, under the butchered interpretation, changes.

Chrisatoph - ignored. You don't support with rules, so should not participate in the discussion here.


However you still failed to answer the question

When, precisely, do we determine if a flier is placed in reserve? When do we determine if it can be deployed normally? Is this, by any chance, at one point and one point only? And will you , yet again, duck this?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the fliers are placed in reserve. So you are saying they fulfil both criteria

Oh, and they're not deployed normally. At the time the rule is invoked, they are not deployed at all. Instead they are placed in reserves

Specifically quote the section that states when "at the time is invoked", and that "deployed normally" excludes situations where "deployed later" is a problem. So far, I have not seen anything related to "when" or "during" or any other synonym quoted for this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fragile - exactly. It's all or nothing. If you butcher the rule as others have done, then the first line - which gives a restriction - doesn't function as a restriction. It in fact has no function at all.

It can be entirely omitted and nothing, under the butchered interpretation, changes.

All or nothing is not a condition of this rule, it is all in Reserves or "normally". Your attempt to redefine the timing of normally to be outside a unit's normal has yet to be properly substantiated in the written form, or at least, what you have quoted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Chrisatoph - ignored. You don't support with rules, so should not participate in the discussion here.

And should I then report you as you have reported others? I have supported with rules references, you support only with assumptions, and now accusations.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However you still failed to answer the question

When, precisely, do we determine if a flier is placed in reserve? When do we determine if it can be deployed normally? Is this, by any chance, at one point and one point only? And will you , yet again, duck this?

I have answered this several times, did you not see it, or did you choose to skip over it in your choler? A Flyer is automatically determined to be in Reserves in deployment when deployment begins, unless a Skyshield is present in the deployment zone. This is a requirement of the unit type and in place as soon as the army list is established. It then deploys normally when its time comes up according to its Reserves roll determination.

So at deployment, when units are placed in reserves, the flyer satisfied "placed in reserves"

Other units either also satisfy "placed in reserve" , or you have not complied with the rule requiring all or nothing. Either all units are placed in reserve (flyer is here, right now, impossible to deny) or none are

You CANNOT deny that the flyer is placed in Reserve.you just avoid saying it, because it undermines your argument, and you know it.

At deployment, the flyer is placed in reserve. Yes?


I have reported those breaking rule one. My rules citations are all on pages one and two, since then you have said nothing that even comes close to denying them

Just a refusal to acknowledge context, and some e false dichotomy. It's not accusation, it's factual.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Other units either also satisfy "placed in reserve" , or you have not complied with the rule requiring all or nothing. Either all units are placed in reserve (flyer is here, right now, impossible to deny) or none are

Where does it state that none can be placed in Reserves? I see only "deployed normally". This assertion that it is "all in Reserves or none are" is an assumption only and does not match the language involved with this sentence, especially considering a detachment whose most common Roles include Flyers and Drop Pods.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You CANNOT deny that the flyer is placed in Reserve.you just avoid saying it, because it undermines your argument, and you know it.

At deployment, the flyer is placed in reserve. Yes?

That has not been my problem. YOUR problem is that you think a Flyer being placed in Reserves to be deployed later is not "deployed normally". You have presented nothing to counter this, either with a quote regarding time nor with Flyer rules. This, along with the reasons posted above, as well as this being an optional rule, are reasons why your assertion regarding this rule have no weight.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have reported those breaking rule one. My rules citations are all on pages one and two, since then you have said nothing that even comes close to denying them

Then you are being overly thin skinned. You were challenged and you reported. You could have been nicer and just warned.

You claim I am not using the rules. When all I have been doing is using the rules and their actual language.

I asked you to support your claims with the rules, and you have repeatedly refused, only going by one sentence which does not carry the language or specific context required to support your assertion. You have failed to follow the tenets of this forum in providing rules to support your claim, but instead accuse others in an effort to bully them to accept it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Just a refusal to acknowledge context, and some e false dichotomy. It's not accusation, it's factual.

I have stated plenty of things which have countered what you have stated, largely because what you have quoted does not state what you assert. Your presumed context cannot be applied because it does not exist. No sense of time is associated with the first sentence of this rule, period, much less when "deployed normally" is made. If the rule was "During deployment, you must..." or "...deployed normally before the game begins" or "When you are determining Reserves...", you would have a case. However, no words associating the "deployed normally" with any period of time are mentioned in this sentence or later on this rule. Since this is the first sentence of the rule, there is no previously established case of time to provide any specific temporal context. Any assumption that "deployed normally" is when you make the determination of Reserves is only in your own mind, and not in this sentence.

To be complete, your "context" is crap because there is nothing to provide the context that all units must be deployed in deployment or before the game begins. All this sentence states is that when they are not all placed in Reserves, they must be "deployed normally". "Deployed normally" by itself does not exclude units which are required to be in Reserves before deployment begins from being in Reserves when the rest are "deployed normally" on the tabletop, nor does it require all be in Reserves if any are in Reserves. The wording is awkward and could have been done better, especially if it was meant to be "all in Reserves or all on the tabletop" for when the game begins. Especially when the exact same codex has several detachments which do not provide the choice and require all to be in Reserves.

Charistoph, if you place some units in Reserve and deploy some units, did you place all units in reserve, or did you deploy all units, or did you do neither?

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

Happy - but wait, that won't matter, because "hand waves"

Chrisastoph - the first sentence requires that

All units are placed in reserve

OR

all units are deployed normally

A flyer (barring the usual limitations) MUST be placed in reserve. This is indisputable

So if you have a flyer in reserve, and a unit of bikes on the board, are:

A) all units placed in reserve?
Or
B) all units deployed normally?

If you cannot answer a or b, you have not complied with the rule

No, I have cited more than one rule. the strike.. Rule plus the rules on page 135, plus the rules governing deployment.

All of which precisely place this rules activation, as there is only one point where this either situation can occur.

No matter how often you claim otherwise, your argument is baseless.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

You keep leaving out two words in the choice you are given, so I took the liberty of bolding and underlining them for you. "as normal" changes the entire context of the rule.

Happyjew wrote:Charistoph, if you place some units in Reserve and deploy some units, did you place all units in reserve, or did you deploy all units, or did you do neither?

You are implying a temporal requirement that this rule does not provide. Can you demonstrate where "deploy as normal" or " deploy normally" means "all right here, right now" within this rule or what it is referencing?

Fragile wrote:""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

No, it is not all or nothing. If a time frame was established for this, such as "deployed as normal during deployment", you would be correct. Any concept of applying a time period for deploying as normal, though, is not established, much less altering what would be normal for a specific unit type or unit's special rules.

It is simply "all or normal" without redefining "normal".

nosferatu1001 wrote:Happy - but wait, that won't matter, because "hand waves"

Chrisastoph - the first sentence requires that

All units are placed in reserve

OR

all units are deployed normally

A flyer (barring the usual limitations) MUST be placed in reserve. This is indisputable

So if you have a flyer in reserve, and a unit of bikes on the board, are:

A) all units placed in reserve?
Or
B) all units deployed normally?

If you cannot answer a or b, you have not complied with the rule.

The answer is b. But you did not define a point in time we are to check any more than Strike As One does.

The problem is that you are assigning a deadline that is not stated. Where in this rule is "deployed normally" associated within a time frame? Deployment is never mentioned. Before the game begins is never mentioned. Not in Reserves is never stated. "When" is never used in this sentence.

In short, "deployed as normal" has no context for "deployed right now", especially when " deployed as normal" is "Deployed from Reserves after the game begins".

No, I have cited more than one rule. the strike.. Rule plus the rules on page 135, plus the rules governing deployment.

Only after they were pointed out to you, but also you are using them to try and apply a context which is never referred to in this qualifying sentence. You are misrepresenting the rules.

All of which precisely place this rules activation, as there is only one point where this either situation can occur.

You are making this part up. First, the "deploy as normal" is never associated with when you are determining Reserves. Second, this sentence is setting up the conditions for when the rule does activate, which is at the beginning of the player's Turn 2.

No matter how often you claim otherwise, your argument is baseless.

[Sarcasm] Yes, I have no basis for stating that a sentence which has no temporal reference is not associated with a specific point of time. Nor do I have basis for stating that deploying as normal does not exclude being put in Reserves by a unit's own rules without a specific point of time being referenced for that deploying. Nor do I have a basis for stating that deploying as nor mal does not exclude deploying from Reserves without another timeframe of deploying be established.[/sarcasm]

Until you can quote the rule and highlight key words which define when "deploy as normal" is to be accomplished, you have nothing to support your case.

Until then "deploy as normal" continues the premise that this Detachment can be deployed as if it did not have this rule, and it would have just as much use for Strike As One when "deployed normally" as if it did not have the rule.

P.S. For your temporal context, if a rule stated that the unit must Run or Charge, would you be assuming you can Charge in the Shooting Phase or Run in the Assault Phase? Because that is how you are presenting it.

P.P.S.: Here is the rule:

Codex: Dark Angels wrote:Strike as One: All of the units in this Detachment must either be placed in Reserve or deployed as normal. If placed in Reserve, all units in this Detachment automatically arrive at the start of your second turn.

Some people seem to be arguing that being placed in reserves is part of being deployed "normally."

Did anyone bother to check how the rules for Reserves are worded or are they just working off what's said in the Deployment section?

pg 135, Preparing Reserves

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

(Emphasis my own.)

It literally says keeping something in reserves is choosing "not to deploy" them. Stands to reason "deploying normally," if you really want to get hung up on that phrasing, means they need to be on the table. The Flyers rule specifically states flyers must begin the games in reserve unless otherwise specifically stated, which the Strike As One rule does not specifically grant.

For all the people saying "Well then you can't use the detachment on it's own with flyers and not automatically lose," I believe that's a correct interpretation of the rules.

Taking my objective hat off for a second, the rule for it and the Deathwing Strike Force are a mess. Find a way to house rule it, or better yet bring some allied formation within the book or allied Combined Arms detachment. Treat it like a Lion's Blade Strike Force or any other Strike Force, in that the main body of the force has some auxiliary detachment with it. The Ravenwing Support Squadron or Ravenwing Attack Squadron are fairly good alongside a Ravenwing Strike Force for turn 1 shooting/hiding, or you could bring two squads of scouts and a Librarian as a CAD to sit on some objectives.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Some people seem to be arguing that being placed in reserves is part of being deployed "normally."

Did anyone bother to check how the rules for Reserves are worded or are they just working off what's said in the Deployment section?

pg 135, Preparing Reserves

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

(Emphasis my own.)

It literally says keeping something in reserves is choosing "not to deploy" them. Stands to reason "deploying normally," if you really want to get hung up on that phrasing, means they need to be on the table. The Flyers rule specifically states flyers must begin the games in reserve unless otherwise specifically stated, which the Strike As One rule does not specifically grant.

Yes, it has been brought up and addressed. However, two points to remember:
1) Arriving From Reserves states:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.

Deep Strike states:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
...
...
Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Outflank states:

When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..., the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves. If such a unit deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Outflank along with their Transport.

Therefore, Arriving From Reserves IS deploying. And as Flyers have the rule:

Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule).

this means that deploying from Reserves is perfectly normal and standard practice.

But why is this relevant to what we are discussing? On to point two.

2) For the same reason I have stated in almost every post, the "deployed as normal" phrase is not contingent on being applied to deployment, by the game begins, or any other point to which being in Reserves at any point for individual units is not allowed. The starting sentence for this rule is all in Reserves or normal condition. It is normal for a number of units from a detachment to be in Reserves and deploy from there, especially in the case of Flyers and Drop Pods where they are required to.

The situation you described, SRSFace, is based on the conditions that apply during deployment, and if Strike As One mentioned anything about the game starting or when determining Reserves, or deployment, your assessment would be correct. In fact, that is the stance that HappyJew and Nosferatu have taken for that exact reason. Also, in almost every other case of rules like this, such a time reference of some kind can actually be found.

However, Strike As One carries no such stipulation nor references to any time associated with "deployed as normal". The only time referenced in this rule is when it directs the detachment to automatically come in on the player's second turn.

But with no timestamp associated with the term "deployed" and "as normal" applied to it, it allows the detachment to have its disposition at the beginning of the game be the same as a Combined Arms Detachment, since that is "deploying as normal". The detachment would also gain as much benefit out of Strike As One as a Combined Arms Detachment if it was "deployed as normal", but that is a strategic consideration, not a rules consideration.

The ability to auto-lose on Turn 1 as a result is not taken in to consideration with this assessment, as that is a strategic consideration, not a rules consideration.

Every single thing you quoted defeats your own argument. They all use the term deployment to mean existing on the game board.

Therefore, deploying normally is not being placed in reserves. We're given an either/or statement. "All of the units in this detachment must either/or." Also note the "all" part comes before the options, so both options must still contain the subset of "all."

It says "deployed," which you've demonstrated means to be in the game state. (Thanks for all those quotes so I don't have to dig them up, by the way.) Placing something in reserves is not deployment, and if all models in the detachment must deploy or be in reserves, they either all start on the table (deployed) or all start in reserves.

Either the word "deployed" means something, or it does not. If it does not, the entire game of Warhammer 40k is not playable within it's own rulebook.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Every single thing you quoted defeats your own argument. They all use the term deployment to mean existing on the game board.

Incorrect. Deployment is part of setup. Deploy is placing on the game board.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Therefore, deploying normally is not being placed in reserves. We're given an either/or statement. "All of the units in this detachment must either/or." Also note the "all" part comes before the options, so both options must still contain the subset of "all."

Only if you are looking at it from the perspective of a time frame of the game's start or deployment. If you are reviewing it across an entire game, this is no longer true. Strike As One provides no requirement of looking at it exclusively from the time frame of deployment or game start.

 SRSFACE wrote:
It says "deployed," which you've demonstrated means to be in the game state. (Thanks for all those quotes so I don't have to dig them up, by the way.) Placing something in reserves is not deployment, and if all models in the detachment must deploy or be in reserves, they either all start on the table (deployed) or all start in reserves.

Either the word "deployed" means something, or it does not. If it does not, the entire game of Warhammer 40k is not playable within it's own rulebook.

It means something. It means to be placed on the game board to act upon it, such as Move, Shoot, and Charge.

This meaning is just not tied to a specific time frame, though.

You deploy units during deployment before the game. You also deploy units throughout the game from Reserves as their case comes up, as I pointed out above.

Deploying from Reserves is a perfectly normal activity over the duration of the game. The only time it is NOT normal is when you are in deployment and before any actions are taken when the game begins.

Where does Strike As One specify this timeframe or perspective?

The rule doesn't say "deployment" as normal. It says "deployed" as normal. We're not talking about Deployment, as in the phase and concept talked about on page 132. We're talking about being deployed. So, again, you've defeated your own line of thinking by providing your line of thinking.

I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.

For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."

If you're that entrenched in your views, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the intention utilizing the context of the wording of the Strike As One rule and everything I can find about what the word "deploy" means in 40k.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.

For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."

The word "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that it means before the game or during the game, nor does it actually place any restrictions. A flier "deployed as normal" comes on the board later, using the reserves rule. That this is normal for the flier isn't really debatable.

There are lots of ways rules could be phrased, for example for the rule to work the way you are suggesting it should say something like "deployed completely before the first turn" or " deployed with no units in reserve". Hypothetical rule phrases unfortunately don't help resolve the issue at hand, at least in this case.

Trystis wrote:

The word "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that it means before the game or during the game, nor does it actually place any restrictions.

When your argument is essentially "It wouldn't matter if this rule was even printed because it doesn't really mean anything," you've lost me and I'm inherently against that line of thinking in a rules-based game.

I also don't see how the either/or statement of the rule doesn't imply you have to do either/or of the things listed.

I never said "it wouldn't matter if this rule was printed..." I said it's not printed. Rules that aren't printed are not rules. You have decided that deployed only means before the game. There is no indication in the rule that this is the case. You are assuming it, which might be ok if it didn't also state "as normal".

As far as the either/or section, it means you have to choose one of the options. Not both. I can either place all of the units in reserve and benefit from them coming in automatically at turn 2, or they can be deployed normally. The rule does give an either/or choice, but when you choose to deploy normally it does not state that you can't have reserves if that's normal for the unit/mission.

If I tell you to that your flier will be "deployed as normal" during your next game does that mean something different from every other game happens?

I meant that you're arguing it doesn't matter the "Strike As One" rule got printed. You're saying the entire first line of the rule might as well not exist because it's wording means nothing, and I just don't agree with that line of thinking ever. It was printed for a reason.

Also, if you told me something would be "deployed as normal" in some other context, it'd depend. If you were saying it verbally, I'd get what you meant. If it was a rules question, I'd ask if you meant "deployed or held in reserves?" Because we've previously established being in reserves is not being deployed.

The thing about context is that it's contextual. Go figure.

The rule doesn't say I "deploy or enter reserves" as normal. Deployed means exists on the gamestate, and it's not giving me the specific option to choose to do this at a later state in the game. The lack of time sensitive words hurts your viewpoint, not helps it. We're not given permission to hold any units in reserve unless all are held in reserves. 40k is a permissive ruleset.

I'm definitely not ignoring the entire first line. I have explained why it supports my argument many times previously. Unless you are speaking of the rule title. If that's the case it's fluff... Fluff is not used in rule interpretations. However, even I did consider it part of the rule (which is not not usually done and makes makes your argument look like its RAI, not RAW) I would remind you that it provides the option to strikes as one, not forces it. If they wanted to always be used they could of easily left out the other option, like deathwing's deployment rules.

Fliers are automatically placed in reserves and subsequently deployed form there. No special permission required as this is how they normally deploy. In fact it requires special permission for them to enter any other way.

The rule states "deployed as normal" and does not require that all units are if one is. When units are "deployed as normal" there may be some, like the flier, still in reserve. The flier will be deployed as they normally are later.

I don't agree with you on context either. Context is subjective allowing for vastly different interpretations. It's handy for when you don't know the definition of a word, but it's not a substitute for a dictionary. Trying to justify your argument with it also makes it look like you are arguing what the RAI is. If you use what the rule actual states objectively you get a much more precise understanding, and is needed for it to RAW.

Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

The rule doesn't state that they need to be deployed at the the same time. It states they need to deployed normally. Deployment is an ongoing process not just a phase. No rules were broken.

As you Christoph pointed out if keep reading the reserve rule you quote you find:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.”

When reserves arrive they are deployed. This is how fliers are deployed normally, your requirement is not stated in the rule, and is not normal deployment.

Trystis wrote:
I'm definitely not ignoring the entire first line. I have explained why it supports my argument many times previously. Unless you are speaking of the rule title. If that's the case it's fluff... Fluff is not used in rule interpretations. However, even I did consider it part of the rule (which is not not usually done and makes makes your argument look like its RAI, not RAW) I would remind you that it provides the option to strikes as one, not forces it. If they wanted to always be used they could of easily left out the other option, like deathwing's deployment rules.

Fliers are automatically placed in reserves and subsequently deployed form there. No special permission required as this is how they normally deploy. In fact it requires special permission for them to enter any other way.

The rule states "deployed as normal" and does not require that all units are if one is. When units are "deployed as normal" there may be some, like the flier, still in reserve. The flier will be deployed as they normally are later.

I don't agree with you on context either. Context is subjective allowing for vastly different interpretations. It's handy for when you don't know the definition of a word, but it's not a substitute for a dictionary. Trying to justify your argument with it also makes it look like you are arguing what the RAI is. If you use what the rule actual states objectively you get a much more precise understanding, and is needed for it to RAW.

You quite literally made the argument that "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that the unit has to be deployed. You literally made that argument.

And now you're literally making the argument that being in reserves is being deployed, despite heaping gobs of rules explaining being deployed means existing on the game board.

And now you're also literally making the argument a rule that says "All units must" does not apply to all units.

I cannot fathom how you can interpret a rule saying you have to deploy something as meaning you don't have to deploy it. The word "normally" is giving you that much of a fit? Jesus Christ, dude.

Actually I literally made the argument that deployment is a process that occurs through out the game as you can see in the reserve rule if you keep reading it. It does have to be deployed, but nothing requires that it has to be deployed before turn 1.

As Christoph pointed out many examples of how deploying goes on through out the game, and is not limited to the pregame.

For example:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table"

That is the process for how all reserves including fliers are deployed. I never said that being in reserves is deployed, I'm saying that it's deployed when it comes out of reserve on to the table as you see in the rule quoted above.

I'm absolutely saying that a rule that states "all units must" be "deployed normally" means that all units need to deployed. A flier being deployed normally comes in from reserves. This is in the rules, I'm not making it up. You can read it if you would like.

I actually don't have a clue how you interpret what I said as anything not being needing to be deployed.

It seems like it would be better to spend more time, if you have it, reading what Christoph and I have written as opposed responding so emotionally.

Trystis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

The rule doesn't state that they need to be deployed at the the same time. It states they need to deployed normally. Deployment is an ongoing process not just a phase. No rules were broken.

As you Christoph pointed out if keep reading the reserve rule you quote you find:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.”

When reserves arrive they are deployed. This is how fliers are deployed normally, your requirement is not stated in the rule, and is not normal deployment.

The context of the rule absolutely places the requirement that, during Deployment (the time period, not an ongoing process, the actual bit in the rules named Deployment) they must ALL either

be placed in reserves

OR

be deployED normally

At Deployment, you have not complied with this rule

Rule broken, meaning you cheated.

Context is subjective. For instance with this example I see the context in a completely different light than you. I see the context of the rule as providing an option for normal deployment or the ability to deploy completely from reserve at turn two.

The context you are using doesn't disprove the rules as stated. At best it may show RAI in some cases, and it doesn't even do that in this case.

The rule in sentence one, under your interpretation, has no meaning. AS it places a restrictioni you are claiming to be totally able to circumvent

To do as you described you can entirely omit this sentence

I rend to believe that when the rules writers write a rule, that it has some purpose. And, in this case, it does do if you do not twist the rules to fit some imagined other purpose

You dont know RAI (I actually do, as i know two of the studio rules writers, but that isnt really relevant here, no am I relying on it - however they both found it amusing that a rule written "Strike as One" can be read as if it can mean "Strike in 2 parts, not one, when you want to", but I digress) - and, in fact, the very title of the rule belies your attempt at "RAI" claims.

You are taking the more complicated route
You are doing so by ignoring the written rule, the rules on page 135 AND the context the rule is written in - which precisely fixes the time period to the ONE POINT IN THE GAME where this choice is made, WITHOUT question - to come up with something that results in the rule having no function

AND

you are ignoring the name of the rule to give you a clue as to the intent. Strike as one. Not strike in as many pieces as you like, because I dont like the restriction the rule places on me

You have no fuunctional argument.

RAW is proven.

SRSFACE wrote:The rule doesn't say "deployment" as normal. It says "deployed" as normal. We're not talking about Deployment, as in the phase and concept talked about on page 132. We're talking about being deployed. So, again, you've defeated your own line of thinking by providing your line of thinking.

I know the rule doesn't say "deployment", that is my point. "Deployment" is a period of time during game setup. "Deploy" is the action of placing a unit on the board. Since Arriving From Reserves have the units "deploy", it is safe to say that "deployed" is not dependent on being a game start state.

SRSFACE wrote:I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.

That is because when a unit Arrives From Reserves, it is deployed. When you can have the same event happen in multiple time frames, a requirement of just "deployed" would not a time frame to apply the past tense from. Where is the time stamp reference for the first sentence of Strike As One?

SRSFACE wrote:For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."

Not necessarily. The first sentence is establishing a context for the following sentence. You make a choice of "All In" or "Normal", if "All In", you get a benefit for what is in Reserves from this detachment. I did mention it could have been written better, but it is not an "all or nothing" as some contend. Not with a "normal" classification and zero time reference.

SRSFACE wrote:If you're that entrenched in your views, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the intention utilizing the context of the wording of the Strike As One rule and everything I can find about what the word "deploy" means in 40k.

Then you are ignoring the numerous cases of "deploy" that happen after deployment and the game begins.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

Incorrect. It is b. You did not give a time reference for when "deployed" was to be accomplished, same as Strike As One. No time reference means that I am not required to look at one specific point of time to fulfill it by. So, yes, a unit can be in Reserves and then be deployed as normal when it is required to start in Reserves. It may be Turn 4, but "deployed" will happen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Actually, I am saying that at some point it will be "deployed as normal" from Reserves. If the Flyer Arrives From Reserves on Turn 3, it will be deployed, and this is normal for a Flyer. Nothing in Strike As One requires the status of "deployed" be accomplished by game start. I have broken nothing. And you keep being unable to provide a proper reference point when "deployed" is to be accomplished by.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

I have ignored nothing but your assertion that "deployed" is a status that can only exist at game start because it is in error. This is something that you have ignored.

nosferatu1001 wrote:OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

I stand corrected on the timing, however, you still are misrepresenting the case. "Deployed" is a state that can be accomplished as much on Turn 4 as in deployment. Can you prove otherwise?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

What context? No context of when "deployed" is to have occurred is stated in this rule, so zero context to support your statement.

So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?

It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?

It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.

No special allowance in the rule is needed because units can be deployed throughout the game, per the reserve rule. It would have to specify if it was otherwise, and it doesn't. There is nothing in the rule that requires everything be deployed during the initial deployment, and without that restriction you would be able to have deployed units throughout the game.

You break the rule at deployment, as not every unit is either placed in reserve or deployed on the table. That is a fact.

At deployment you have some in reserve, some deployed. So you have not complied with the rule.

Cite permission to break the rule at deployment, because it's going to be OK later on?

Oh,mane context still absolutely places this rule at deployment. I'm just showing, yet again, how you can be bull headed about context and it not matter. Because you don't comply at deployment, and have no permission to break the rule at deployment because you think you may fulfil it later

So that's at least three issues with the "strike in two pieces " argument. Zero have been addressed so far, so that's 3-0 to the side that can read rules...

Quote the rule that requires that requires all units to be deployed during deployment? It doesn't state that every unit has to be either in reserves or deployed at deployment. You are adding that to support an argument that isnt backed by existing text.

My interpretation brakes zero rules, and relies solely on the rules.

Yours invents one, relies on context that is frankly irrelevant and disputable, and fluff which is also irrelevant and is disputable. None of this proves you are correct, it just proves you can't support your argument with actual rules, but are so desperate to win that you will twist any piece of related text to the point of breaking.

I never state that as a requirement, and have never contended that either.

The first sentence of the rule does require that every unit is either placed in reserve or deployed. So at deployment, which is the contact, if some units are placed in reserve and some are not, you have not complied with the rule.

My argument does not rely on the title of the rule. I just find it amusing that you will twist the rules so that the clearly stated intent of the rule is breached. It's just amusing that you will go so such lengths

The actual writers of the rules find it amusing as well.

You have no permission to,break the rule during deployment just because you may be able to comply later on

Cite your permission or concede. Simple choice.

Quote the rule and specifically point out where it requires every unit is required to be in reserves or deployed only during deployment.

I'm glad they think it's amusing, maybe it will get the to wright their rules less poorly in the future.

I don't need to cite a permission because it has already been granted by the reserves rule and hasn't been restricted by the strike as one rule.

"Write"

The first sentence. Subject is "all of the units" as a collective entity. You can't split this. So during deployment your contention is that you can break this rule, but lack permission to do so.

The reserves rule does not specifically override this RESTRICTION given in the first sentence.

In fact under your interpretation the first line has no function, as the only function it has when read as written is to restrict you to either deploying or going into reserves

Three different ways in which your reading of the rule must be wrong, and you counter not a single one of them, yet claim you're correct. Impressive.

It's really funny for you too point out a spelling error. You should focus on edit your own posts rather than others.

"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.

Trystis wrote:

"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.

By this logic, you could place half your army in reserve, and put the rest on the table, claiming that they'll go into Ongoing Reserves at some point later in the game... And this would count as 'all' of your units being in reserve.

Your interpretation makes the stipulation that everyone do the same thing meaningless.

 insaniak wrote:

Trystis wrote:

"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.

By this logic, you could place half your army in reserve, and put the rest on the table, claiming that they'll go into Ongoing Reserves at some point later in the game... And this would count as 'all' of your units being in reserve.

Your interpretation makes the stipulation that everyone do the same thing meaningless.

You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.

“If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves” pg 597 iBook

At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.


There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing. It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start. However, the rule actually lacks that stipulation.

The "all of the units" clause doesn't restrict units from being deployed from reserves, at least for fliers for whom this is Normal. I think it's more illogical to restrict something that is normal when the rule specifies to do it as normal. Implying that it's all in reserves, or all on the board before turn one is a false dichotomy.

Reserves are units waiting to be deployed.

They are deployed normally from turn 2+.

All of the units must be placed in reserves or deployed normally.

Sounds like all or nothing to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are we now saying it doesent state the effect on turn 1?

Trystis - so you stil make the claim that the first rule has no effect then?

Just to be clear, you think that GW wrote a rule with no function?

The "all if the units" are a single object. This single item can exist in only one place - reserves or deployed. You have no permission to split them up, as the rule restricts you to one single location.

Keep insisting there is no restriction there - and that the rule does nothing - you just remain incorrect.

Trystis wrote:

You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.

It's not. As per the rule you quoted, 'Ongoing Reserves' is just what we call it when something goes into Reserves after the game starts.

At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.

Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?

After all, your idea of leaving the flyer in reserve to deploy 'normally' later may also turn out to not be possible, if at the time of deployment the flyer can't legally deploy.


The only sensible approach, IMO, is to assume that deployment conditions must be met during the deployment step - meaning that at the end of your deployment phase, all of your units must have been deployed or kept in reserves. Deploying most of your army while holding a unit in reserve to deploy later does not satisfy that criteria.

There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing.

Yes there is. It's the bit that refers specifically to 'all units'.

It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start.

Well, not quite. It's being stated outright that the two options are that all units be in reserve, or all units deploy normally, and that deploying most of your units normally and keeping one in reserve does not satisfy either of those criteria.



While I can see your point on flyers' 'normal' deployment, you're attempting to satisfy a deployment requirement by claiming that you will perform a specific action (which you may or may not actually be able to follow through on) at some point in the future. And that's not going to fly with most players, IMO.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?

Correction. Despite the rule giving no such requirement as to when this is to be accomplished.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.

Only if the "deployed as normal" applies by the end of deployment. And because it does not state that like many other rules involved that are that specific, I can easily dispute it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Trystis - so you stil make the claim that the first rule has no effect then?

Just to be clear, you think that GW wrote a rule with no function?

I have already demonstrated that this rule is to provide an optional context to the portion of the rule that actually does something. That is the point of saying "if in Reserves" in the second sentence, to introduce the consequences of the decision in the first of "All in or normal".

nosferatu1001 wrote:The "all if the units" are a single object. This single item can exist in only one place - reserves or deployed. You have no permission to split them up, as the rule restricts you to one single location.

Sorry, the "as normal" redefines the case. If it was just "All in Reserves or Deployed", then you would have a case. If there was a timeframe that we had to have "deployed as normal" defined, you would have a case.

However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Keep insisting there is no restriction there - and that the rule does nothing - you just remain incorrect.

Incorrect. This portion of the rule does something, and that is define the context for the rest of the rule.

Remember, Strike As One is entirely optional in use, and is not required like the Deathwing detachments do require them.

 Charistoph wrote:

However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers..

Deploying from Reserves is also 100% normal and expected for any other unit kept in Reserves.


So if we're assuming that the requirement to deploy 'as normal' allows flyers to be kept in Reserve and deploy later, doesn't that also mean that any other unit could do the same?

 insaniak wrote:

Trystis wrote:

You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.

It's not. As per the rule you quoted, 'Ongoing Reserves' is just what we call it when something goes into Reserves after the game starts.

This is pretty much correct. Ongoing Reserves even states it follows all rules for Reserves. There are only two exceptions to this: When you can come back in and denial of the use of Outflank.

 insaniak wrote:

At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.

Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out numerous times, there is no requirement for this to be accomplished by deployment, this is only an assumption, not an actual written requirement.

 insaniak wrote:
After all, your idea of leaving the flyer in reserve to deploy 'normally' later may also turn out to not be possible, if at the time of deployment the flyer can't legally deploy.

Why do I have to make sure by the time of deployment? Where is this as a requirement?

 insaniak wrote:
The only sensible approach, IMO, is to assume that deployment conditions must be met during the deployment step - meaning that at the end of your deployment phase, all of your units must have been deployed or kept in reserves. Deploying most of your army while holding a unit in reserve to deploy later does not satisfy that criteria.

Correct if the status is required by the end of deployment. Now... where is that requirement?

 insaniak wrote:

There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing.

Yes there is. It's the bit that refers specifically to 'all units'.

It should be more accurate that there is no stipulation that it all be done at the same time. And leaving that out is part of the problem.

 insaniak wrote:

It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start.

Well, not quite. It's being stated outright that the two options are that all units be in reserve, or all units deploy normally, and that deploying most of your units normally and keeping one in reserve does not satisfy either of those criteria.

While I can see your point on flyers' 'normal' deployment, you're attempting to satisfy a deployment requirement by claiming that you will perform a specific action (which you may or may not actually be able to follow through on) at some point in the future. And that's not going to fly with most players, IMO.

The problem with this perspective is simply this part: "to satisfy a deployment requirement". It needs to be established that this is a deployment requirement first before placing any other onus on what may come later.

And let's face it, it is a lot harder to not deploy from Reserves than it used to be. At one point, there is no keeping it in Reserves and it arrives automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers..

Deploying from Reserves is also 100% normal and expected for any other unit kept in Reserves.


So if we're assuming that the requirement to deploy 'as normal' allows flyers to be kept in Reserve and deploy later, doesn't that also mean that any other unit could do the same?

It depends on how we define "normal". For Flyers and Drop Pods, this is a literal expectation and not being deployed from Reserves would be "abnormal". In this case Flyers and Drop Pods are abnormal. But just because it is abnormal for everyone else, it doesn't mean it cannot be normal for those it is expected of.

It is expected for penguins to swim and not to fly, yet it is expected for birds to fly. Swimming is not normal for birds, but it is quite normal for penguins. And there are some birds that both swim and fly like ducks, so it is normal for them to do both in the course of events.

 Charistoph wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.

Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out numerous times, there is no requirement for this to be accomplished by deployment, this is only an assumption, not an actual written requirement.

That was the point, though. If we assume that there is no time limit on checking if your chosen deployment method is actually legal, then putting half of your army in Reserve and putting the rest on the table intending to make them go into Ongoing Reserves later on is just as legal as deploying all of your army except the flyer... because you can choose to just keep putting off the part where you actually check if going into Ongoing Reserves is possible.



So either we assume that checking if your deployment is legal is something that happens during deployment, or we have a rule covering how we have to deploy that is actually completely non-functional since you can just deploy or reserve whatever you want anyway.

It depends on how we define "normal".

Indeed it does. Without any clarity in the rules themselves, we're left guessing whether they meant 'Normal for everybody', 'Normal for the unit' or 'Normal for the situation'.

The 2nd and 3rd option result in broken situations.
The first option is the most restrictive, but results in all units either deploying or being in reserve, which certainly seems to be the likely objective of a rule that tells us that all of our units either deploy or are kept in reserve.

 insaniak wrote:
That was the point, though. If we assume that there is no time limit on checking if your chosen deployment method is actually legal, then putting half of your army in Reserve and putting the rest on the table intending to make them go into Ongoing Reserves later on is just as legal as deploying all of your army except the flyer... because you can choose to just keep putting off the part where you actually check if going into Ongoing Reserves is possible.

Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves? The only units which can go in to Ongoing Reserves on a regular basis are Flyers. The next most common are Deep Striking units with Mishap. Anything else is specific to a unit's datasheet like a Night Scythe's Embarked unit.

That's what makes this point rather pointless.

 insaniak wrote:
So either we assume that checking if your deployment is legal is something that happens during deployment, or we have a rule covering how we have to deploy that is actually completely non-functional since you can just deploy or reserve whatever you want anyway.

At least you are stating you are operating on an assumption. Mr. Nos is telling use this is a stated condition. I can only do so much against an assumption, but I can do a lot about a stated condition that does not exist.

As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.

And yes, deploying as normal would include Reserves for those required. However, as previously stated, the rest of the rule is dependent on all units being in Reserve and does not care nor operate when you are not all in. If you want the detachment to come in from Reserves (like Outflank) on a specific Turn (i.e. Turn 2), they must all be in Reserves. If this is not an objective of this detachment, deploy as normal.

 insaniak wrote:

It depends on how we define "normal".

Indeed it does. Without any clarity in the rules themselves, we're left guessing whether they meant 'Normal for everybody', 'Normal for the unit' or 'Normal for the situation'.

The 2nd and 3rd option result in broken situations.
The first option is the most restrictive, but results in all units either deploying or being in reserve, which certainly seems to be the likely objective of a rule that tells us that all of our units either deploy or are kept in reserve.

No, it does not. Option 2 and 3 are no more broken than when deploying for a CAD, hence "normal". And if you are deploying like a CAD, then you weren't planning on using Strike As One anyway, so nothing broken.

Are you understanding this paradigm?

 Charistoph wrote:
Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves?

Sure. I'll do so at the time at which the rules tell us to check the validity of my deployment.

As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.

We've established that the RAW is unclear as to just which definition of 'Normal' we should use... at which point, we're all arguing on assumptions and personal opinion.

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves?

Sure. I'll do so at the time at which the rules tell us to check the validity of my deployment.

I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.

 insaniak wrote:

As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.

We've established that the RAW is unclear as to just which definition of 'Normal' we should use... at which point, we're all arguing on assumptions and personal opinion.

We have, yes, apparently. Not everyone who has posted to this thread has accepted that so far, though.

As for SHOULD Strike As One require all the Bikes and Land Speeders to be in Reserve if a Drop Pod or Flyer is added... I stand by how I see the interactions between the first and second sentence. If you want to take advantage of the automatically arriving on Turn 2, all the detachment has to start the game in Reserves. If you do not wish to take advantage of it, then deployment is normal and handled just like a Combined Arms Detachment. No need to look for easter eggs or fancy requirements.

 Charistoph wrote:
I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.

You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.

You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.

Actually, they DO need to fit that reference in order to accomplish what you are suggesting.

This is not the same situation as something required to be in Reserves and being deployed later. You're concerning yourself with something that cannot go back in to Reserves being able to go in to Reserves. Capacity must at least exist.

Flyers that start the game in Reserves WILL be in deployed, unless the game is stopped before then. Conversely, a unit that cannot go in to Ongoing Reserves cannot be used in a situation to say, "Oh, they'll just go in to Reserves eventually", because they cannot.

 insaniak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.

You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.

Now that I have had time to read the ongoing reserves rule more closely it is definitely its own thing. Here is the rule, bolded the part that caught my attention:

“If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.”

The rule states that when a unit leaves the battleground it enters Ongoing Reserves. The units in Ongoing Reserves follow slightly different rules than units in regular Reserve. Most importantly it specifies that units are in Ongoing Reserves, not that they join units that have been placed in Reserve. It's titled differently so it's not possible to fulfill the all units in reserve requirement.

Even if entering Ongoing Reserves was considered the same as being in Reserves it's not the same as a flier deploying normally. It's possible and normal for the flier to be deployed from reserve, but it's impossible for any of the other units to enter Ongoing Reserves, barring a deep strike mishap. This means you can only place the units, other than the flier, in Reserve during deployment. It's not an option to place them in reserve later in the game so you would be unable to meet the requirement that all units be placed in reserve. This is different than a flier being deployed from reserve because that will happen as normal, while claiming that a unit will do something it can't do is not possible. Since it's not possible to do it's also not possible to fulfill the requirement, thus breaking the rule.

And again, even if we accept "deployed normally" it still does not allow you to have some of the units in reserve and some deployed. Because you are breakING the rule, and nothing says you may do so.

Impasse. the first sentence, to have an effect, must set all units to the same "status" - every unit is either deployed, or every unit is placed in reserves. No exceptions.

A flyer in Reserves and the rest deployed does not satisfy this first restriction of "all units", and this breaks a rule. Later on you may comply, but you still break this rule at deployment. And without permision to do so, you cannot proceed

Chrisatoph - so the rule has no function. None.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And again, even if we accept "deployed normally" it still does not allow you to have some of the units in reserve and some deployed. Because you are breakING the rule, and nothing says you may do so.

Incorrect. When dealing with Flyers and Drop Pods, it is perfectly normal to have some units in Reserves and some units deployed. You have not provided any evidence otherwise and even agreed on that point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Impasse. the first sentence, to have an effect, must set all units to the same "status" - every unit is either deployed, or every unit is placed in reserves. No exceptions.

No point of time referenced means that the same status does not indicate at the same time. Indeed, the mere fact that we are to treat it "as normal" would definitely separate it out "as normal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A flyer in Reserves and the rest deployed does not satisfy this first restriction of "all units", and this breaks a rule. Later on you may comply, but you still break this rule at deployment. And without permision to do so, you cannot proceed.

It satisfies "deployed as normal" if we are looking over the course of the game. Where does it state that this is "at deployment"? Where does this rule state any timeframe at all?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Chrisatoph - so the rule has no function. None.

It has a function as I explained and which you have not properly countered with any rule from the rule in question or the rulebook in general. You are relying on Assumptions and calling them Written.

I think this has gone around in circles quite enough, by this point.