Major Balance Changes:
Wraithknight 360pts base

Flicker jump limited to once per phase per unit

Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts

D-scythe: Change to: Template Strength:6 AP:2, 6's to wound cause a glancing hit to vehicles and a wound regardless of targets toughness

Aerobatic Grace: As well as 4+ cover if model has moved, if the unit jinks it can re-roll its jink save

Changes to make taking a non-CAD army easier
Guardian Battlehost
Merge Guardian Battlehost and Guardian Stormhost so you can take Guardian Defenders or Storm Guardians in any combination and all weapon options for these are free
1 Farseer
0-1 Warlock Conclave
3-5 Guardian Squads instead of strictly 3
1-3 of Vaul's Wrath Battery, War Walkers, Vypers

Windrider Host
1 Farseer Skyrunner
0-1 Skyrunner Warlock Conclace
3-5 Windriders
1-3 Vypers

Wraithhost
Change Spiritseers to 1-3

Aspect Host
Each unit may individually choose whether to have +1 BS or +1 WS
(I find it annoying when creating a list that I have to take 3 squads of Scorpions to get the buff to WS)



I have made, as simply as possible, a fix to tone down the most abusive units in the Codex and make Shining Spears a bit better. I also changed around a few things regarding formations to make them less rigid. I Will probably be trying these changes out and see how they go, opponent willing.

I feel any problems with any units can be changed with point value adjustments. I see the argument that point changes won't fix things which I think is a load of rubbish, if you took any unit that was top tier like Windriders and made them 100pts per model it would not make them less powerful? Of course it would, they would be unplayable and no one would take them in their lists. This proves somewhere between their current points value and the ridiculous 100pts per model there is a balance point, though I am not saying my changes are it.

(For Warp Spiders its just not fun rolling multiple Flicker Jumps and Shining Spears just because it is simpler than working out a better points cost and seems more in line with the Crimson Death Formation special rule which does exactly the same thing as my change)

Thoughts?

The Aspect Host hands out buffs too easily; even with the ITC nerfs to once-per-phase jumps spiders still dominated the LVO. Nerf it slightly (re-roll ones to hit in either combat or shooting? the base units are already fine, and they also get re-rolls for moral and such from the formation.) and probably increase the points of Fire Dragons, and Hawks minorly and warp spiders less minorly. Finally, change the Wraith Guard weapons to be anti-MC instead of anti-everything-but-horde and the codex will be closer to playing like it supposed to, in that every unit has a specialty that they excel at but lack the ability to do anything else.

How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

Wraithknights are 295 with no upgrades. Yeah, they're THAT undercosted.

Swampmist wrote:The Aspect Host hands out buffs too easily; even with the ITC nerfs to once-per-phase jumps spiders still dominated the LVO. Nerf it slightly (re-roll ones to hit in either combat or shooting? the base units are already fine, and they also get re-rolls for moral and such from the formation.) and probably increase the points of Fire Dragons, and Hawks minorly and warp spiders less minorly. Finally, change the Wraith Guard weapons to be anti-MC instead of anti-everything-but-horde and the codex will be closer to playing like it supposed to, in that every unit has a specialty that they excel at but lack the ability to do anything else.

Yeah the Aspect Host change is a bit of a buff but I think it is reasonably fluffy for aspect warriors to be very good at fighting, I prefer +1BS/WS because its less dice rolling and so quicker and more simpler and some units need the boost

In my limited experience of playing Warp Spiders they would be more manageable for my opponent if they can only jump once, but I only run one unit of 5

These aren't changes to make it tournament worthy, tournies should have their own rules to keep things balanced

Other changes to Aspect Warrior points I would consider if I did a 2nd pass on the changes after a lot of play testing to see where things stand

I agree D-scythes should not be Strength D, I will come up with something to add to the original post at some point

Kap'n Krump wrote:How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

No they are 295pts but Scatter Lasers and Star Cannons are 15pts and 20pts each

Yeah D-scythes need changing, forgot about them as I don't use them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, thought of a change to D-scythes to tone them down but still make them worth their points. Will need testing though

But if your going for a balancing pass, there's no reason to buff the already great Aspect Host, though it's not much of a buff as everyone just chooses BS anyway. Maybe limit it to one Exarch across all three, to lower the spiderspam viability? Or, actually, better idea: The +1 BS and +1 WS happen together, but only when two or more units from the formation are within X range of eachother, kind of like the 1st Company Task Force.

On the Wraithguard, I suggest making the guns still viable at killing MCs (as that is basically their job) but nerf it as much as you can against multi-wound infantry, and make them simply unviable against vehicles so that they end up being an actual specialist unit like the rest of the codex. then, leaving them at the same current cost, give them a second wound maybe? Then make them Very Bulky instead of bulky, and dissallow them from going in a WS. This way, the unit becomes a tanky, but slow MC killer, which would in no way be op imho.

What if Death Spinners were S5?
Hawks could move 12"?
Fire Dragons lost Assured Destruction?

A few things, if you're increasing windriders to 60 base, then the weapon option upgrade cost should stay the same not go up. Makes no since. You're no double taxing a unit. Not even space marines get that treatment with grav guns.

I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

 Swampmist wrote:
I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

We are going to limit grenades now? I want all marines to have one special gun per squad. Oh stern guard? Then no special weapon per squad cause your a vet, rock that bolt gun. No special ammo either. Who needs it

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

We are going to limit grenades now? I want all marines to have one special gun per squad. Oh stern guard? Then no special weapon per squad cause your a vet, rock that bolt gun. No special ammo either. Who needs it

You DO realize that they can only throw one either way, right? That aspect would not change. Also, Swooping Hawks have the Bomb Drop, can move 18" a turn, can DS without Scatter, and can jump off the board if they get in trouble. They don't also need to be one of the best ways to glance a tank down, especially when Dragons Exist. Though, another option is to make it so that they cannot jump 18" and then charge, which would, again, be a small enough nerf as to keep them played but still get them closer to the mid-tier, which is where every unit should be.

Also, Sternguard have to pay for special weapons; Hawks get the haywire grenades as a part of their base profile. And tacticals do only get - special per squad, and heavies are generally terrible. Not comparable., and very irrelevant to the thread.

Haywire on the non-Exarch matter with the charge. Currently, if they charge a vehicle, they destroy it.

With 12" movement, if you let them charge your LR, they are going to do the damage.

With 18" movement, they are going to get to charge your LR.

Hawks are all about the Grenades. They have a utility belt Adam West would love. That and mobility is what they do. Their gun is more a sidearm.

I have never been a fan of points increases. I would rather have units that are easier to kill than jacking up the cost. As an Eldar player, I was actually pissed that the WK became a GC because it came with a price increase that made fielding 2 of them (my main anti-tank at the time) less appealing, not to mention making me TFG.
So instead of raising the price of the WK, how about lowering his Wounds to 5 instead of 6 (which is 16% reduction in durability) and making the D-Cannons only 24". That way the WK has to get closer while risking more damage. Let's also reduce the Initiative to 4 like the other Wraith-constructs.

As for Windriders, keep them at the current cost, but make their armour save 4+ and make Scatter Lasers 1 per 3 (although I think it's perfectly fine and fluffy to have all Shuriken cannons).

I also like the "re-roll 1s" to hit for the Aspect Host. It may be a bit more rolling, but it is simple to keep track of and doesn't make current units god-like. If anything, just drop that bonus from the Aspect Host entirely and just have it's bonus be the ability to take 3 units of Aspect warriors (that also re-roll moral & pinning)

--

A few related ideas:

I like the idea of S5 deathspinners, and I think S5 scatter lasers might be a good option too.

As for Wraithguard, I didn't mind the old S10 AP2 Distort profile for the wraithcannon - yeah, it was good against both MCs and vehicles, but there was a real tradeoff. Fire Dragons were better against vehicles - they had AP1, Melta and had melta bombs to back that up, while Wraithguard were better against MCs with their ID-on-6 weapons. Also, Wraithguard were tougher, but more expensive, while Fire Dragons were faster and cheaper, and could fit in a Falcon. Neither really had the volume to be the correct counter to heavy infantry, though they can do it in a pinch.

The D-scythe is stickier. The old version was basically anti-heavy-infantry only, though it could fish for sixes against MCs or vehicles in a pinch. I'm not actually sure what its intended role is supposed to be: Eldar don't really need help killing MEQs, since shuriken weapons can do that just fine, and WG with wraithcannons, Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers can pick up whatever slack remains. As an anti-MC weapon, any kind of flamer seems like a weird choice. The current D-scythe is horribly broken: sure, it can't just unceremoniously baleet models the way the full-power-D wraithcannon can, but it can deal a thoroughly unreasonable number of wounds.

Maybe something like this: R18 S1 AP2, Salvo 1/2, Fleshbane (4+), Instant Death

The intent is to make an anti-MC/anti-GC weapon that's not amazing against typical heavy infantry and is useless against vehicles. Anti-GC is why it's Fleshbane (4+) not Poisoned (4+). It almost surely needs some tuning, because as a first stab, that's probably either OP or UP, but...

jade_angel wrote:
A few related ideas:

I like the idea of S5 deathspinners, and I think S5 scatter lasers might be a good option too.

As for Wraithguard, I didn't mind the old S10 AP2 Distort profile for the wraithcannon - yeah, it was good against both MCs and vehicles, but there was a real tradeoff. Fire Dragons were better against vehicles - they had AP1, Melta and had melta bombs to back that up, while Wraithguard were better against MCs with their ID-on-6 weapons. Also, Wraithguard were tougher, but more expensive, while Fire Dragons were faster and cheaper, and could fit in a Falcon. Neither really had the volume to be the correct counter to heavy infantry, though they can do it in a pinch.

The D-scythe is stickier. The old version was basically anti-heavy-infantry only, though it could fish for sixes against MCs or vehicles in a pinch. I'm not actually sure what its intended role is supposed to be: Eldar don't really need help killing MEQs, since shuriken weapons can do that just fine, and WG with wraithcannons, Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers can pick up whatever slack remains. As an anti-MC weapon, any kind of flamer seems like a weird choice. The current D-scythe is horribly broken: sure, it can't just unceremoniously baleet models the way the full-power-D wraithcannon can, but it can deal a thoroughly unreasonable number of wounds.

Maybe something like this: R18 S1 AP2, Salvo 1/2, Fleshbane (4+), Instant Death

The intent is to make an anti-MC/anti-GC weapon that's not amazing against typical heavy infantry and is useless against vehicles. Anti-GC is why it's Fleshbane (4+) not Poisoned (4+). It almost surely needs some tuning, because as a first stab, that's probably either OP or UP, but...

The whole idea behind the scatter laser is high strength low penetration. I'm perfectly fine with the strength going down if the pen goes up to ap3. So mediocre strength decent penetration. You can't just nerf something to crap, you have to balance it. Scatter lasers should always have no problem killing marines. Whether in volume of wounds or armor penetration

S5 AP6 Heavy 4 (on Relentless platforms) is nerfed to crap? I might be inclined to disagree with that. (And AP3 would be a bit OP there. S6 AP6 Heavy 4 at BS4 versus T4/3+ is .74 average unsaved wounds, versus 1.77 average for S5 AP3 Heavy 4 at BS3 versus T4/3+. That would make it a better Marine-killer than the starcannon, and basically a four-shot version of the Reaper Launcher with -12" range.) I'm not talking about knocking it down to one shot, or 12" range, or S3, or anything crappy like that.

That said, it's not especially OP except when you can spam it on highly mobile platforms. On bikes, it's the combination of price, mobility, range and numbers that makes it scary. Scatter lasers on Guardian squads, Wave Serpents, Falcons and Vypers have never been especially terrifying. War Walkers can get mean with their numbers, but they're expensive (relatively), squishy and take up valuable Heavy Support slots, so even scatterspam War Walkers are strong but balanced.

So, either leave it with its current profile but restrict it to one in three for bikers, or leave its current availability, but nerf it to S5. If you need your bikes to kill marines, shuriken cannons are a better option anyway.

jade_angel wrote:
S5 AP6 Heavy 4 (on Relentless platforms) is nerfed to crap? I might be inclined to disagree with that. (And AP3 would be a bit OP there. S6 AP6 Heavy 4 at BS4 versus T4/3+ is .74 average unsaved wounds, versus 1.77 average for S5 AP3 Heavy 4 at BS3 versus T4/3+. That would make it a better Marine-killer than the starcannon, and basically a four-shot version of the Reaper Launcher with -12" range.) I'm not talking about knocking it down to one shot, or 12" range, or S3, or anything crappy like that.

That said, it's not especially OP except when you can spam it on highly mobile platforms. On bikes, it's the combination of price, mobility, range and numbers that makes it scary. Scatter lasers on Guardian squads, Wave Serpents, Falcons and Vypers have never been especially terrifying. War Walkers can get mean with their numbers, but they're expensive (relatively), squishy and take up valuable Heavy Support slots, so even scatterspam War Walkers are strong but balanced.

So, either leave it with its current profile but restrict it to one in three for bikers, or leave its current availability, but nerf it to S5. If you need your bikes to kill marines, shuriken cannons are a better option anyway.

Well good thing it's neither of those options then huh buddy? GW loves the space elves to much to hurt them like that. Until then, you'll just have to learn to play against multiple squads of 3 bikers with 3 scatter lasers.

Also, maybe not have almost every single gun in their entire army be rending? I guess a rending that doesn't have an effect on vehicles, but still.

Swooping Hawks are fine as is, the 18" is fun and their weaponry is fairly limited in terms of power, it lets them focus down vehicles but get destroyed by the basic space marine fairly easily.

Increase the potency of the Howling Banshee, either assaulting out of transports/ furious charge or rage/ rampage... something that makes them good at CC would be great.

Windrider Guardian wise, increase the base cost of the Shuriken Cannon to 15 and the scatterlasers to 20

Warp Spiders should only be allowed to flickerjump once per game turn

Wraithknights should be 300 base but being forced to purchase its weaponry (25 points for sun cannon and scattershield, 60 for D cannons, 55 for Ghostglaive and scattershield)

Remove the +1 BS/WS benefit for the aspect host and have specific benefits added depending on the Aspects included to represent them fighting as a unified force rather than a way to spam one particular aspect. For instance:

Adding a Howling Banshee squad gives all units in that aspect host rending in close combat

Adding Shining Spears gives all units in that aspect host Rerolls to hit and wound for the first round of combat

Adding Dark Reapers give all units in that aspect host +1 BS

Adding Warp Spiders give all units in that aspect host Hit and Run

Adding Swooping Hawks give all units in that aspect host +3 to their run and charge rolls

Adding Striking Scorpions give all units in that aspect host +1 strength in close combat

Fire Dragons give all units in that aspect Monster hunter/Tank hunter

Dire Avengers give all units counter attack or BS2 on overwatch

These are all some meaty buffs but it also makes players want to diversify their aspect hosts rather than an option to just spam on particular aspect... like Warp Spiders

Wave Serpents are reduced to 100 points

Increase the Avatar of Khaine to 280 points and give him a 4+ invulnerable save and 12" movement, always hitting on 3's in close combat

Wraithguard Distortion Scythes becomes S7 ap2 Template

Hemlock Heavy D scythe becomes S8 ap2 1d3+1 blast

Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

 Swampmist wrote:
Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

You play warhammer, friend. What you want has no weight anywhere

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Also, maybe not have almost every single gun in their entire army be rending? I guess a rending that doesn't have an effect on vehicles, but still.

Yeah, make Bladestorm AP3 on the 6 to wound so that it is more like "rending lite" instead of "rending - effect on AV". Or make Bladestom have Shred and always wound on 6s (cuz if it was just Shred you wouldn't need to call it Bladestorm).

Windriders are basic troops, but unfortunately the "1 per 3 special weapon" ship has sailed since the kit comes with 3 of each weapon. Again, though I am not a fan of price increase, especially on the basic troops that I started this army for. I shouldn't be punished for using the unit that attracted me to this army back in 4th ed when they weren't this good. Either make them have a 4+ armour, or make Scatter lasers 15pts (shuricannons should stay at 10pts, or even 5pts if you make the above change to Bladestorm)

Wraithguard should be 35ppm + 10pts per D-scythe and you should be able to mix them. It makes no sense to have to upgrade the entire unit. With this change, I think D-scythes (and the Heavy ones on the Hemlock) should only be AP3 or even AP4. Nothing in the BRB says that D-weapons have to be AP1-2 and it would be interesting to see how D-weapons work when you get a decent save. Fluffwise it makes perfect sense for all Distortion weapons to be D-weapons, but that doesn't mean they all have to be AP2.

Here is how I would break it down:
Heavy Wraithcannon (the WK one): 24" range, StrD, AP2, Heavy 1
Wraithcannon: no change to current, just a 3pt increase on WG and the ability to mix in D-scythes
D-cannon: no change to current
D-scythe: Template, StrD-1, AP4
Heavy D-scythe: Torrent Template, StrD-1, AP3 (or AP4 with a points decrease on the Hemlock to make it appealing)

-

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

You play warhammer, friend. What you want has no weight anywhere

Except in the exact forum we're in .

Back on topic, I like the Idea of each aspect adding something different, and it means that almost any set-up other than spamming one unit is encouraged.

Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

 Torus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

Limiting flicker jump to once per phase is in OP

Hawks are crazy good at anti light infantry, and have limited anti tank they shouldn't be sooo good at anti tank where they can basically guarantee a LR destruction of they charge it, also they can haywire flyers as well. They really really don't need to be able to each have a haywire attack in close combat

If against any guard infantry squad a unit of 6 dropping a large ignore cover blast can get most of their points back with this attack alone

I apologize; I should have reread the original post before I responded again.
I would like to point out that quite literally everything that fires more than one shot in the Eldar codex is better at horde clearing than Swooping Hawks. Secondly, even with 18” using these guys vs air targets is usually not viable since every flyer can avoid them with superior movement whilst the ignores cover bomb is great against pathfinders and the like, but its only S4 – not something to sniff at but certainly not worth justifying the unit’s existence.
Lastly and crucially why shouldn’t a charge from these guys wreak a Land Raider? They are a T3 unit with 4+ armour who will most likely deep strike in, they then have to survive a turn of shooting before attempting to charge and even then they are hitting on 3’s to try and haywire the target. When the tank is destroyed they are then dead to the counter punch to whoever is inside… or the player using armour can just bubble wrap/ screen the armour to protect it… job done

 Torus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

 Torus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

Limiting flicker jump to once per phase is in OP

Hawks are crazy good at anti light infantry, and have limited anti tank they shouldn't be sooo good at anti tank where they can basically guarantee a LR destruction of they charge it, also they can haywire flyers as well. They really really don't need to be able to each have a haywire attack in close combat

If against any guard infantry squad a unit of 6 dropping a large ignore cover blast can get most of their points back with this attack alone

I apologize; I should have reread the original post before I responded again.
I would like to point out that quite literally everything that fires more than one shot in the Eldar codex is better at horde clearing than Swooping Hawks. Secondly, even with 18” using these guys vs air targets is usually not viable since every flyer can avoid them with superior movement whilst the ignores cover bomb is great against pathfinders and the like, but its only S4 – not something to sniff at but certainly not worth justifying the unit’s existence.
Lastly and crucially why shouldn’t a charge from these guys wreak a Land Raider? They are a T3 unit with 4+ armour who will most likely deep strike in, they then have to survive a turn of shooting before attempting to charge and even then they are hitting on 3’s to try and haywire the target. When the tank is destroyed they are then dead to the counter punch to whoever is inside… or the player using armour can just bubble wrap/ screen the armour to protect it… job done

No problem

I suppose but you could be them out of LOS then with 18" jump get in and wreck it quite easily and even if they can't reach a flyer is going to create a bubble your opponents aircraft are gong to avoid and if they have more than 1 or two that's hard to do

Strength 4 against toughness 3 is still pretty good and ap4 ignore cover is great

It comes down to their role; guranteed 18" move that doesn't require using up their shooting can be pretty good for taking objectives. It really comes down to their job; they are a rapid response unit, meant to handle a multitude of targets ok and be able to get where they need quickly and without needing to pay for an exspensive transport. That's why I like the idea of making the host have different buffs for each unit; it promotes diversity and allows for design space for equalizing their power levels.

The thing with Swooping hawks and flyers is that they have to move over part of the model rather than just reach the base, which makes it even harder to do that particular attack (I've tried many times, most recently I've tried 3 units from multiple directions several turns trying to reach a fire raptor... it hasn't gone well)

Against T3, the bomb is great, it also relies on an Autarch to get your reserves in (god help you if you are using ITC making you roll every time the come in from deep strike) and has a very limited selection of targets. Blob squads squads of guard are running is a plethora of psyhic buffs these days or will be in transports or be so big/spaced out that they can ignore 7-8 wounds, and then they are dead to retaliation fire.
They suicide quite well against pathfinders and scouts... they can hurt markerdrones... and thats about it for ideal targets.

If you are in a very densely populated board with a ton of LOS blocking terrain (everyone's gaming board dream) then they can be quite powerful against armour... being in the open however or anything that can draw line of sight to the hawks will end them. Even 'throw away' weapons such as heavy stubbers and heavy bolters utterly destroy them , so I really appreciate their sting in the tail if that makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
It comes down to their role; guranteed 18" move that doesn't require using up their shooting can be pretty good for taking objectives. It really comes down to their job; they are a rapid response unit, meant to handle a multitude of targets ok and be able to get where they need quickly and without needing to pay for an exspensive transport. That's why I like the idea of making the host have different buffs for each unit; it promotes diversity and allows for design space for equalizing their power levels.

Agreed,

they shouldn't be as good as Fire dragons at taking down vehicles, and they shouldn't be as good at killing infantry and Dark Reapers... I just feel their shorter range weapons and the haywire grenades really do help make their movement important an important aspect of their identity in the codex... perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe, as I stated I just dislike the constant spamming of aspects when they really should used in conjuction with each other...

 Torus wrote:
perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe...

Sure, it fits. I can't disagree with that. But they why do other similar units not get the special rules that they do? Other 7th edition books give out special rules via formations. Eldar got all of their special rules on the units themselves, meaning feel free to CAD it up. Also, look at Scourges. They're essentially the DE version of Hawks, yet with no special rules whatsoever. And then a personal gripe of mine is, why do they get Deep Strike precision, when things like my Deathmarks don't.

Hawks have too many special rules for their points. Sure, you can easily kill them if you look at them (relatively speaking), but that's true with a lot of units that are far worse. A whole squad of Haywire Grenades (they removed that option from Wytches) that can hit flyers, faster movement than everyone, not even including that Jet Pack feature and Battle Focus, a weight of fire gun that gaks on Las weapons, No mishap ever, can go back into reserves (Which, also keep in mind you can just go into reserves turn 1 and auto come in turn 2, but things like the Mawloc specifically cannot do that. Why?).

I can see an argument that they're not OP, sure. But that's not a good argument. The fact that they gak on so many other units in other armies is not fair. Yet another iteration of GW's inconsistency and favoritism towards Eldar.


As far as every other unit, I could rant on, but I'll save it for now.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:
perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe...

Sure, it fits. I can't disagree with that. But they why do other similar units not get the special rules that they do? Other 7th edition books give out special rules via formations. Eldar got all of their special rules on the units themselves, meaning feel free to CAD it up. Also, look at Scourges. They're essentially the DE version of Hawks, yet with no special rules whatsoever. And then a personal gripe of mine is, why do they get Deep Strike precision, when things like my Deathmarks don't.

Hawks have too many special rules for their points. Sure, you can easily kill them if you look at them (relatively speaking), but that's true with a lot of units that are far worse. A whole squad of Haywire Grenades (they removed that option from Wytches) that can hit flyers, faster movement than everyone, not even including that Jet Pack feature and Battle Focus, a heavy weight of fire gun that gaks on Las weapons, No mishap ever, can go back into reserves (Which, also keep in mind you can just go into reserves turn 1 and auto come in turn 2, but things like the Mawloc specifically cannot do that. Why?).

I can see an argument that they're not OP, sure. But that's not a good argument. The fact that they gak on so many other units in other armies is not fair. Yet another iteration of GW's inconsistency and favoritism towards Eldar.


As far as every other unit, I could rant on, but I'll save it for now.

Good grief, I wish I were writing the rules for the other ‘dex's at the very least we'd get a more balanced internal and external experience... we both know there are issues with the various factions in this game, however I love this ‘dex! Almost everything is useful and fun to use, and I'd rather have minor tweaks to bring everything in line in the Eldar dex (Warp Spiders, Wraith knight, D scythes, scatterbike nerf / Banshee, Scorpion, Wraithblade, shining Spear, Avatar buff - Aspect host changes) and then strengthen everyone else so they can experience that for themselves on a codex level rather than formation based [Idealism over]

(Just as an aside I do believe the Hawks just go into reserves rather than ongoing when they Skyleap meaning there is a good argument to have them roll when they come in. - interpretation may vary)

First off, Wyches... they really should have kept haywire grenades, its a travesty what happened to that faction and if possible I would have given them + 3" to charge range or rage...something to buff them, and the entire dex if I'm honest and yes Deathmarks probably should only scatter d6

Whilst scourges are a bit more specialized than the hawks with ranged haywire, although it doesn't fit with the fluff I'd wish they increased their movement range.

Regardless of these examples, Swooping Hawks have a ton of special rules but the ways they can implement is them are limited.
- They can do back into reserve - for a S4 ignores cover blast, which have few ideal targets especially when brought down to 5 models or less
- They have rapid fire weapons that make lasguns look like a joke - in fairness, so do bolters, IG at the very least have access to order and desperately need an update themselves
- They can 'assault' flyers - it's a nice utility skill but certainly not reliable, if you took it away from the hawks, players wouldn’t notice
- They murder armour in cc - CC has its own issues but it's reliable and can be countered
- They can deep strike without scatter but unlike your Wraithguard D scythes/ Deathmarks/ Warp Spiders/ Centurions/whatever they don't have the weaponry to fully utilize it

They certainly don’t need a buff, but they are in a good place at the moment.

Perhaps this isn’t said enough, but I’m sorry. I’m sorry that GW has created such a disparity between some codices, I’m sorry that my faction has an amazing codex when others are either god awful or rely on formations to get on the table and I’m sorry because of a few disgusting units any lists are stagnant and devoid of any innovation. Earlier when Eldar released, some people said that even if you randomly selected units you would get a competitive army (and I think gently toning down Warp Spiders, Windrider Guardians with Scatterlasers and Wraithknights truly creates that feel) … I’m a firm proponent that all factions should have the same opportunity.



Sorry, this turned into a ramble, I got carried away a bit.

You need to make a lot MORE changes, not fewer.

Martel732 wrote:
You need to make a lot MORE changes, not fewer.

Disagree

You can disagree, but i guess it depends on your target.

Did you read the OP?

Better but fewer. If anything the lore points to points going up.

If points were proportional to the lore the tau would be at a big disadvantage due to comparatively small numbers and imperial guard would be 1ppm due to high total human population lol

 Korlandril wrote:
Did you read the OP?

Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.

Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts

Honestly I don't know the price of a unit of windriders because I don't play Eldar, but is that 60pts base for 3 windriders or is that for 1 single windrider? The reason I ask is because I believe Scat Bikes are currently 27pts a model, and under your increases they are 35pts a model (8pts more)

While that does appear at face value to be a big increase, it really isn't. Most Eldar lists I see with Scat Bikes include about 3 units of 3-4 bikers. Going of the MSU principle lets say a total of 9 Scat Bikes. Your points increase is only 72pts. That does seem a lot but then you realize that just means you don't get to take 72pts of other upgrades. Yeah it will help balance the game a bit but not enough to make it "Balanced".

Again, I am most familiar with my Ork codex so please I understand that comparison's aren't exactly good because as everyone admits the Ork Codex is probably in the bottom 3 for codexs.

Orks can take Warbikers and Nob Bikers, I won't do a comparison for nob bikers because it is just silly and will make me cry a bit inside. Instead lets go off Warbikers. For 18pts a model you can get warbikers, they are BS2 S3 T5 bikers with a 4+ save and a 4+ jink. They come standard with a 18in TL S5 Assault 3 weapon. Thats realistically not to bad, points cost wise they maybe need a bit of help but still feasible. Here is the problem, they are LD7 So you have to include a Nob to get Mob Rule results So you have to purchase a nob biker for the squad of 3 (or upgrade a boy to keep the squad at 3)
For the 3 Boyz and a Nob with a powerklaw (realistically the only way you should take a nob) your paying 107pts for 4 bikes with T5 and 4+ saves. For 105pts under your system Eldar can take 3 Scat Bikes.

In a vacuum those 3 Eldar Scat Bikes are going to EAT my warbikers for breakfast. 4 S6 shots at 36in range means I will never be able to close the gap and even if I do because of real game reasons, by the time I get their I will be combat ineffective. 1 round of shooting from those bikes will deal me 12 shots 8 hits and about 6 wounds. Against 4+ armor thats 3 unsaved wounds and boom I am down to a nob on a bike, thats it. Turn 2 he dies, or if he gets the charge off by some miracle he faces again 12 shots of overwatch 2 hits and 1-2 wounds. If he is lucky he dies in CC if he isn't...well hes dead on overwatch.

So Basically if your saying that the squad starts with 1 biker at 60pts then think that is a sufficient nerf in points to make them balanced against the rest of the game, but otherwise it still isn't enough. Not because the ork warbikers didn't win, but because they didn't have a chance.

Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Did you read the OP?

Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.

You want a wraithknight to cost almost as much as supremacy armor... When are we adding the 14 other d cannons at 48" range with rerolls of one and 3+ fnp with 2+ reroll able invulnerable?

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Did you read the OP?

Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.

Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Did you read the OP?

Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.

Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least

The IK is such a piece of junk compared to this thing. That's why I say 460. Even that might be too cheap. I almost snicker when people field IKs, because they could have had WKs instead. Basically, if your super unit still cares about melta in 7th, it's bad. IKs do, and so they are bad. WK and TWC and Black Knights don't give a feth about melta.

Martel732 wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Did you read the OP?

Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.

Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least

The IK is such a piece of junk compared to this thing. That's why I say 460. Even that might be too cheap. I almost snicker when people field IKs, because they could have had WKs instead. Basically, if your super unit still cares about melta in 7th, it's bad. IKs do, and so they are bad. WK and TWC and Black Knights don't give a feth about melta.

In the same way IK's don't care about psychic shrieks or grav cannons and their weapons arguably have more utility against a wider selection of targets.

They both have stomps and both have D weapon attacks in cc
WK has 2 Single shot D weapons at range, or a Sun cannon (s6 aP2 small blasts)#
whilst the IK has rapid fire battle cannons or melta cannons and a plethora of carapace options and secondary weapon systems.
In a head to head the WK would win, but the IK does better as an all-rounder

and lets not forget that the stormsurge can be considered better than the WK since it's a massive force multiplier at sub 400. just my 2 cents

I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.

IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.

Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.

SemperMortis wrote:

Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts

<snip generally accurate, on-point analysis for brevity>
Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.

I respectfully disagree, and this is why: the Windrider with its default twin-linked shuriken catapult is unimpressive. 40 points for a scatbike actually does sound about right, but 25 for an BS4 S3 T4 guy on a bike with 3+ armor and a gun that's R12 S4 AP5 Assault 2 Bladestorm, Twin-Linked is a little bit much. Consider that Shining Spears are already 25 points with a strong CCW and dual-wielding, Skilled Rider and an automatic cover save and they're considered underpowered. (They still have the Windrider's twin-linked shuricat.) What makes the scatter laser seriously nasty is precisely that 36" range combined with the ability for the bikes to kite you an average of 18" per turn. Most other units are hard-pressed to close the gap without 48" guns, and precious few of those have good weight of fire. The shuriken cannon, while effective, is much less scary due to its shorter range (even though, statistically, it's deadlier to heavy infantry and MCs, once you do get into range), while the catapult scares essentially nobody. Yes, it is effective on MEQs and the like, but getting into 12" range without getting shot to hell and gone is actually fairly hard, and if you want to shower someone with shuricats, Guardians actually aren't too bad at it.

I'd propose instead, one of the following:

Base cost 20 points. 15 points for a shuriken cannon, 25 points for a scatter laser.

--XOR--

Base cost 20 points. One model in three may upgrade to a shuriken cannon (5 points) or a scatter laser (15 points).

The heavy weapons being cheap is fine if their number is strictly limited; being numerous is OK if they're expensive. The problem is both. And I agree that the base Windrider is too expensive, but not by a lot. (Alternatively, leave it at 17ppm, but with a 4+ save)

Doesn't an IK beat a Suncannon WK and about tie a Glave WK?

And how often does a Wraithcannon WK get two saves vs Psychic Screech? As for the other builds, the WK gets roughly the same as the IK gets vs shooting - 5++/5+++ is very close to a 4++.

The WK hunts titans better, the IK hunts non-Titans better. The WK tanks high-S high-AP better, but high-S low-AP worse, and mid-S much, much worse.

WKs need to cost more. But do they outclass IKs per-model? I'm not so sure. They are vulnerable to different things, but its really just things like Haywire and Malta that scare IKs more than WKs.

A titan-hunting WK killing another minititan better than an infantry-mulching IK does shouldn't be a surprise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jade,
I like your first option.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.

IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.

Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.

1 ranged D attack kills 1 thing if you're lucky which is very good against your single model powerhouses like your riptides, IK's, GMC's fine...is it going to stop Windrider jetbikes?, Grav bikes?, Warp Spiders? TWC? Deathstars? ...no its got a very specific thing that it's very good at, and if you go with Double D's then you only have the FNP's for your shrieks/ gravs and shenanigans.

The Sword is great for defence and now you have some great striking power in CC, but then you yourself are weak to those very save single shot D weapons and you are prone to tarpits if you're unlucky

Suncannons are great for packed infantry but really lacks focus for everything else...

WK's are too powerful for their points cost...but I think you maybe underestimating the other big toys on the market

"WKs need to cost more. But do they outclass IKs per-model? "

Absolutely. It's not even close. The FNP alone is crazy, crazy good. IKs are a joke compared to WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.

IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.

Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.

1 ranged D attack kills 1 thing if you're lucky which is very good against your single model powerhouses like your riptides, IK's, GMC's fine...is it going to stop Windrider jetbikes?, Grav bikes?, Warp Spiders? TWC? Deathstars? ...no its got a vary specific thing that it's very good at, and if you go with Double D's then you only have the FNP's for your shrieks/ gravs and shenanigans.

The Sword is great for defence and now you have some great striking power in CC, but then you yourself are weak to those very save single shot D weapons and you are prone to tarpits if you're unlucky

Suncannons are great for packed infantry but really lacks focus for everything else...

WK's are too powerful for their points cost...but I think you maybe underestimating the other big toys on the market

You can't tarpit a WK because of stomp.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.

IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.

Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.

Eh, the Stormsurge only has a slightly better save, and then only if it spends 50 points to get it. (4++ Shield Generator vs 5++ Scattershield) Not trivial by any means - the Stormsurge is annoying as hell and I refuse to use one - but it doesn't have massively better saves than the WK. It's also T6/W8 instead of T8/W6 - kind of a tossup, depending on what you're throwing at it.

And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.

(Note, I most emphatically am not claiming that the WK isn't overpowered/undercosted, but it's not "just better than an IK in every way against every target". I think it really ought to start out around 350 points with the suncannon, and either option that has D should be quite a bit more.)

jade_angel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.

IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.

Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.

Eh, the Stormsurge only has a slightly better save, and then only if it spends 50 points to get it. (4++ Shield Generator vs 5++ Scattershield) Not trivial by any means - the Stormsurge is annoying as hell and I refuse to use one - but it doesn't have massively better saves than the WK. It's also T6/W8 instead of T8/W6 - kind of a tossup, depending on what you're throwing at it.

And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.

(Note, I most emphatically am not claiming that the WK isn't overpowered/undercosted, but it's not "just better than an IK in every way against every target". I think it really ought to start out around 350 points with the suncannon, and either option that has D should be quite a bit more.)

Eldar don't care about groups. They have scatterlasers coming out their ears. What the WK brings to the table can not be replicated in the Imperial arsenal for any price, much less its current price.

I'll grant the scatterlasers-out-the-ears, at least with scatbikes (and Warp Spiders for the rest). As for "cannot be replicated for any price"? Hell no, a Warhound Titan does it (and mashes groups to jelly while doing it). Now, fair enough, that's hella more expensive, and almost certainly loses to its points worth of Wraithknights, but you did say "at any price".

The WK is overpowered. But the situation for anyone else isn't quite as dire as you're making it sound.

Now, out of curiosity: if you completely ban Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Wraithknights, Farseer Skyrunners, Autarch Skyrunners and Warlock Skyrunners - are Eldar still so ludicrously OP as to be unbeatable?

Really?
Shadowswords? Titans? IKs? They may cost more to "do it", but they do it.

FnP is good, but so is front armor 13 or a positional 4++. Or, going bigger, an AV14.

Sure, its a ton more points, but you did say any cost. And it would be much, much better.

Saying SLs mean CWE don't care about Groups is like saying Skyhammer means IoM don't care about WKs. Its absurd. Even if you ignore the SL changes in the current scope.

jade_angel wrote:
I'll grant the scatterlasers-out-the-ears, at least with scatbikes (and Warp Spiders for the rest). As for "cannot be replicated for any price"? Hell no, a Warhound Titan does it (and mashes groups to jelly while doing it). Now, fair enough, that's hella more expensive, and almost certainly loses to its points worth of Wraithknights, but you did say "at any price".

The WK is overpowered. But the situation for anyone else isn't quite as dire as you're making it sound.

Now, out of curiosity: if you completely ban Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Wraithknights, Farseer Skyrunners, Autarch Skyrunners and Warlock Skyrunners - are Eldar still so ludicrously OP as to be unbeatable?

I guess I shouldn't have said for any price, because I always forget those things exist. If you banned those things, then yes. Eldar would probably be down at DA level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Really?
Shadowswords? Titans? IKs? They may cost more to "do it", but they do it.

FnP is good, but so is front armor 13 or a positional 4++. Or, going bigger, an AV14.

Sure, its a ton more points, but you did say any cost. And it would be much, much better.

Saying SLs mean CWE don't care about Groups is like saying Skyhammer means IoM don't care about WKs. Its absurd. Even if you ignore the SL changes in the current scope.

I haven't seen a CWE Eldar list with less than 20 scatterlasers in many, many years.

Even Skyhammer has trouble killing WK, you are probably trading away far more points to maybe kill it than the WK is worth. So even with Skyhammer, IoM cares about WK.

Dev Grav squad:
-5 guys @70
-4 Cannons @140
-Combi @15?
-Pod at 35

About 250 points

Grav Cannons wound a WK at:
(2/3)(8/9)(1)(2/3), or about half for a Wraithcannon WK
(2/3)(8/9)(2/3)(2/3) or about 1/3 for others.

So WCannon WK needs 12 shots to die, others need 18.

That unit has 23 shots in 1 round.

How the hell is a WK likely to survive that?

Or are you saying that at 300-400 points for a WK, 250 is too much to pay to kill it?

jade_angel wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts

<snip generally accurate, on-point analysis for brevity>
Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.

Spoiler:

I respectfully disagree, and this is why: the Windrider with its default twin-linked shuriken catapult is unimpressive. 40 points for a scatbike actually does sound about right, but 25 for an BS4 S3 T4 guy on a bike with 3+ armor and a gun that's R12 S4 AP5 Assault 2 Bladestorm, Twin-Linked is a little bit much. Consider that Shining Spears are already 25 points with a strong CCW and dual-wielding, Skilled Rider and an automatic cover save and they're considered underpowered. (They still have the Windrider's twin-linked shuricat.) What makes the scatter laser seriously nasty is precisely that 36" range combined with the ability for the bikes to kite you an average of 18" per turn. Most other units are hard-pressed to close the gap without 48" guns, and precious few of those have good weight of fire. The shuriken cannon, while effective, is much less scary due to its shorter range (even though, statistically, it's deadlier to heavy infantry and MCs, once you do get into range), while the catapult scares essentially nobody. Yes, it is effective on MEQs and the like, but getting into 12" range without getting shot to hell and gone is actually fairly hard, and if you want to shower someone with shuricats, Guardians actually aren't too bad at it.

I'd propose instead, one of the following:

Base cost 20 points. 15 points for a shuriken cannon, 25 points for a scatter laser.

--XOR--

Base cost 20 points. One model in three may upgrade to a shuriken cannon (5 points) or a scatter laser (15 points).

The heavy weapons being cheap is fine if their number is strictly limited; being numerous is OK if they're expensive. The problem is both. And I agree that the base Windrider is too expensive, but not by a lot. (Alternatively, leave it at 17ppm, but with a 4+ save)

Do folks actually play stomps as always strength D? Stomp is crazy-strong, but it's not that strong. It's usually S6 AP4 (on a 2-5). Only on a 6 do you get "just baleet any models under the blast marker". Now that needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't always do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:That is probably the best and most reasoned argument for a point increase I have seen so far. The only reason I increased the cost of the bike itself was because scatter lasers are OP cheese but units that can take 1-2 of them aren't OP and shouldn't suffer huge points increases because Scatbikes are BS.

Eh, it mostly doesn't matter. Wave Serpents, Falcons, Vypers and Guardians would be fine even if they were forbidden from taking scatter lasers: they usually want shuriken cannons or brightlances anyway. War Walkers would have a bit more trouble, but maybe the starcannon would make a comeback. Wraithknights? Scatter laser, starcannon, what's it matter? Wraithlords? Those exist?

(I keed. I have two Wraithlords, but it's been a while since I've used them...)

Scamp,
I agree that the WK is OP. But the claim that Skyhammer specifically pays way more than WK prices for a not great chance to kill one is simply false.

SemperMortis wrote:and what about every other army in the game that doesn't have grav?

Or space marine players who simply prefer not to field grav?

If a particular bit of wargear has become an "auto-take necessity," there's an obvious game imbalance.

I'm with Martel. Anything below 400 points for a wraithknight is simply a non-starter for discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.

IKs don't have the "jump" special rule.

I'd love to not need to take Wraiths to handle IKs, but here we are.

(My SM don't field Grav. That's been fine in my meta.)

Fire dragons kill iks better than anything i have.

Fragons on foot? Lolno they're dead.

Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Fragons in a WWP Archon unit? Sure. Because obviously that's a CWE option.

The WK is hard to kill. But so is an IK.

Bharring wrote:Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Did you write that with a straight face?

I bet you're still giggling quietly to yourself, aren't you?

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:and what about every other army in the game that doesn't have grav?

Or space marine players who simply prefer not to field grav?

If a particular bit of wargear has become an "auto-take necessity," there's an obvious game imbalance.

I'm with Martel. Anything below 400 points for a wraithknight is simply a non-starter for discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.

IKs don't have the "jump" special rule.

I figured 395 was about right for the suncannon WK, so, broadly agreed on cost.

How is the fact that IKs don't have "Jump" relevant to anything I said? The WK gets to reroll its charge distances, which is pretty significant, but I was talking about their guns, not their CC capabilities. (They both move 12" anyway because both SHWs and GCs move 12" base).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Did you write that with a straight face?

I bet you're still giggling quietly to yourself, aren't you?

Harder than with a pod? Yes. Practically impossible? Well, hell no, obviously - Serpents are pretty tough. (But for their cost, they probably should be. I swear people think Eldar are getting a 12/12/10 fast skimmer transport for the price of a Rhino. They're not.)

jade_angel wrote:I figured 395 was about right for the suncannon WK, so, broadly agreed on cost.

How is the fact that IKs don't have "Jump" relevant to anything I said? The WK gets to reroll its charge distances, which is pretty significant, but I was talking about their guns, not their CC capabilities. (They both move 12" anyway because both SHWs and GCs move 12" base).

It just strikes me as a strange consideration to assert that IKs are better for crowd control. WK can do crowd control in a pinch. Jump, swing, stomp.

Jump doesn't matter in that case unless you're talking about the rerollable charge distance. That is literally the only thing the WK has over the IK for melee crowd control. Both can move 12", both can assault, both have Stomp, both have Hammer of Wrath and the same number of attacks.

Which means that, although the WK isn't helpless at crowd control, the IK - with large blast or large volume guns - does it better.

jade_angel wrote:Harder than with a pod? Yes. Practically impossible? Well, hell no, obviously - Serpents are pretty tough. (But for their cost, they probably should be. I swear people think Eldar are getting a 12/12/10 fast skimmer transport for the price of a Rhino. They're not.)

Sorry, just the undertones/insinuations of Bharring's post made it SOUND like:

"Oh, boo hoo, as an Eldar player, it's SO hard to get this wave serpent where I want it and maneuvre my troops. Oh woe is me and my wave serpents that just can't seem to reach their destination."

I bet Bharring disturbed everyone in the house, probably his whole neighborhood, with the sheer lol-fest he had when he wrote that line.

Bharring wrote:
Fragons on foot? Lolno they're dead.

Fragons from a Serpent? Costs more than podded vets. Better firepower, but getting into place is harder.

Fragons in a WWP Archon unit? Sure. Because obviously that's a CWE option.

The WK is hard to kill. But so is an IK.

I don't see wks going down to scatterlaser side glances. AV 12 sides make iks quite vulnerable.

Personal much?

The question is if Fragons kill IKs better than anything SM has.

To that, I pointed out:
-on foot isn't happening.
-WWP isn't a CWE thing
-Serpent has an upside (marginally better damage) and some downsides (higher cost, not as auto-win) as compared to podded Vets.


I used no modifiers to imply that it couldn't be done with Serpents. I merely stated that podded vets are easier to get into place.

There is a world of difference between "not as easy" and "practically impossible". I wasn't trolling, and nothing in what I wrote should have given that impression.

I don't get how you read it with that tone.

The fact remains that podded melts is easier to bring to bear, and cheaper, with only a small difference in firepower (about 10-15% per model, not per cost).

Yeah, that does. I'd be interested if anyone's played with/against the new FW knight that has 14/13/13 armor. That seems potentially pretty mean.

Also, there's the new psychic power that improves all facings by +1. The Empire^WImperium strikes back?

Bharring wrote:-Serpent has an upside (marginally better damage) and some downsides (higher cost, not as auto-win) as compared to podded Vets.

"Not auto-win" is not a downside.

I know that is a novel, earth-shattering concept for an Eldar player.

But just to repeat:

"Not auto-win" is not a downside.

Oh boo hoo.

SLs will have a 1/12 chance to take a HP on side armor.

Compared to the WK's 1/27, yeah wow scary side armor shots.

Granted, you could also compare the WK's 1/27 chance of taking a wound to the face to the IK's 0 chance on front armor.

Or the 1/27 chance from a HB or Pulse Rifle vs 0 on side armor for the IK.

Or the S5-6 CC attacks that have 1/27 or 1/9 chance to wound a WK but a 0 chance to hurt a WK.

But the best comparison is the about 1/2 or 2/3 chance Grav has to hurt a WK compared to 1/6 or 1/12 chance to hurt an IK.

But sure. One weapon much better in certain circumstances to hurt an IK than WK. Those things go both ways.

I didn't get that from your post.

Ws and fire dragons is the kind of investment i would expect to down a knight.

Bharring wrote:
Oh boo hoo.

SLs will have a 1/12 chance to take a HP on side armor.

1. Scatter bikes have the relentless special rule.
2. Any one scatter bike fires 4 shots per turn at 36 inch range.

That's one hull point per scat bike squad.

What are you saying, Trad? That Serpent-based Fragons are better than podded Malta, because not being auto-win (in regards to bringing guns to bear) isn't a downside? So Serpent Fragons are better than podded Melta because podded Melta is autowin?

I think you are confused.

Bharring wrote:
What are you saying, Trad? That Serpent-based Fragons are better than podded Malta, because not being auto-win (in regards to bringing guns to bear) isn't a downside? So Serpent Fragons are better than podded Melta because podded Melta is autowin?

I think you are confused.

I'm not saying that Serpent-based falcons are better, worse or the same as podded melta. I'm just pointing out that your language and undertones are ridiculous (and stereotypical of eldar players).

Furthermore, I wish to point out:

1. Podded melta costs 32 ppm.

2. Podded melta is one use per game.

3. Podded melta does not have assured destruction.

4. Podded melta does not have battle focus.

5. Podded melta does not fire at BS 5.

1) Serpent-based Fragons are what, 44ppm in a Serpent? (The Pod brings the SM to 35ppm)
2) If Fragons aren't one-use-only, your opponent is doing something wrong. T4 vs T3 is a big difference, but both are suicides.
3) That was mentioned. A 4/6 chance vs a 5/6 chance to do +d3 wounds is about a 15% difference. That's per-model, not per-cost.
4) Battle Focus is needed to get in range if using a Serpent (unless your opponent t is stupid). Without that, you don't get Melts range.
5) Fragons in Serpents only get BS5 in a formation. So we might as well be talking Skyhammer Devs if we're talking BS5 dragons. On top of rerolling 1s to hit or some other shenanigans.

The only dismissiveness was with foot dragons. I don't think anyone needed that explained.

I think you're just prejudiced against Eldar players, and the problem wasn't my tone.

I'm willing to say they both are good at downing an ik. My issue is that neither would do jack to a wk. And too many other units like scat bikes and hornets just lol the ik off the table.

Bharring wrote:
1) Serpent-based Fragons are what, 44ppm in a Serpent? (The Pod brings the SM to 35ppm)
2) If Fragons aren't one-use-only, your opponent is doing something wrong. T4 vs T3 is a big difference, but both are suicides.
3) That was mentioned. A 4/6 chance vs a 5/6 chance to do +d3 wounds is about a 15% difference. That's per-model, not per-cost.
4) Battle Focus is needed to get in range if using a Serpent (unless your opponent t is stupid). Without that, you don't get Melts range.
5) Fragons in Serpents only get BS5 in a formation. So we might as well be talking Skyhammer Devs if we're talking BS5 dragons. On top of rerolling 1s to hit or some other shenanigans.

The only dismissiveness was with foot dragons. I don't think anyone needed that explained.

I think you're just prejudiced against Eldar players, and the problem wasn't my tone.

A SM Drop pod costs 35pts, divided by the 5 models inside makes each model 39pts a model not 35, unless they are bringing 10 models which would be a waste and rather silly. Furthermore your not counting into that equation what your getting with your transport Marines get a storm bolter and an immobilized vehicle. Eldar get a wave serpeant

Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

 Korlandril wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

The difference between BS4 and BS5 is 1/6 more hits. the difference between AP0 and AP1 is +1 on the damage chart, so you went from explodes results on a 5+ to a 4+ or another way to put it you just increased the chance to explode by 1/6th again.

6 Marines with meltas will hit 4 times, they have a very good chance to pen any vehicle type, but for the sake of this little scenario lets call it AV12. so on 2D6 they have a 2/3rd ish change to pen. so about 2 pens, they are AP1 so +2 meaning 5+ to explode, they have a 1/3rd chance to expode on 2 shots, so pretty good odds.

6 Fire Dragons on the other hand hit 5 times, same chances to pen so 2/3 meaning 3-4 pens, lets say 3 because we are being generous. They are +3 on the chart so 4+ or in other words 50/50 to explode on 2 shots.

That is the difference. And as far as taking out the firedragons before they get to my vehicles? well your transport is a jinking transport and the best ranged firepower I have is Lootas....so yeah not going to happen.

My point is that they would be fine as regular Melta, but Eldar all have to be special snowflakes so they got all those bonuses.

+2 on the chart vs +3 is actually huge. With +2, you are almost as likely to HP out a vehicle as you are explode it. Against IK, the necessity of an explodes results is even higher. +3 generates 50% more explodes results than +2. That is not miniscule.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

That's why it's Wraithknights, d-scythes, Windriders, warp spiders and with as little change as possible

Lets not start throwing around insults based on what type of toy soldiers you push around the battlefield

Sorry but firedragons are part of the cheese fest, I know as an Eldar player you don't like the idea that your army is considered Easy mode by a big portion of the gaming community, but they are.

Firedragons would be fine and dandy if they were just regular melta toting Eldar. Instead they have BS5 in a formation and they are the only unit in the game I know of that is AP0.

Vehicles in this game are already weak enough, but to give them +3 (+4 if open topped) on the damage chart is just ridiculous.

Well take them out before they get to your vehicles? If you let any melta unit get close to your vehicles that vehicle is going to die whether it has ap 0 or not

You also realise that the difference between ap1 and ap0 is miniscule as is BS5 and BS4?

The difference between BS4 and BS5 is 1/6 more hits. the difference between AP0 and AP1 is +1 on the damage chart, so you went from explodes results on a 5+ to a 4+ or another way to put it you just increased the chance to explode by 1/6th again.

6 Marines with meltas will hit 4 times, they have a very good chance to pen any vehicle type, but for the sake of this little scenario lets call it AV12. so on 2D6 they have a 2/3rd ish change to pen. so about 2 pens, they are AP1 so +2 meaning 5+ to explode, they have a 1/3rd chance to expode on 2 shots, so pretty good odds.

6 Fire Dragons on the other hand hit 5 times, same chances to pen so 2/3 meaning 3-4 pens, lets say 3 because we are being generous. They are +3 on the chart so 4+ or in other words 50/50 to explode on 2 shots.

That is the difference. And as far as taking out the firedragons before they get to my vehicles? well your transport is a jinking transport and the best ranged firepower I have is Lootas....so yeah not going to happen.

My point is that they would be fine as regular Melta, but Eldar all have to be special snowflakes so they got all those bonuses.

Dude its not that bad, orks obviously need buffing that's more of a problem, couldn't you use a cheap unit to bubble wrap your vehicles anyway?

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

Plasma weapons 1. wound on 5s, 2. get hot and 3. do not bypass the FNP.

Let's do the math, assuming a tactical marine:

2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (FNP) X 1/6 (6 wounds) = 4/162 (2/81)

It would take 81/2 plasma shots to take down a wraithknight.

Of those 81/2 plasma shots, 81/2 X 1/6 (81/12 or 6 3/4), would get hot. Of those 6 3/4 gets hot results, 81/12 X 1/3 (81/36, or 2 1/4) would result in plasma gun marine suicide.

"Lots of plasma guns" indeed!

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

I have a better idea. Leave the wraithknight and your other shenanigans on the shelf and play fair.

Dude its not that bad, orks obviously need buffing that's more of a problem, couldn't you use a cheap unit to bubble wrap your vehicles anyway?

Do you bubble wrap your Wraith Knights? do you bubble Wrap any vehicles in your lists? no, you know why? the only time its feasible to bubblewrap is when your fielding a mechanized army with lots of vehicles. The only vehicles the orks have are pathetically weak and don't need bubble wrap because by doing so your tying up even more of your armies points in protecting garbage. The only vehicle in the codex you can field and be competitive is Trukks/BW anything else (walkers/FLyers) Suck.

Im sorry, i dont want to come across as rude to you, but I get tired of players trying to "Help" me with my army when they have no idea how to even play orks and think that Orks can be competitive if you just "L2P". "Get gud" "add in allies" "use cover" "take more trukkz" "Boyz before toyz" "Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty".

Those comments are about as productive as me saying Tyranids are the best army in the game and need to be nerfed.

Traditio wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Well... Let's see. Fire Dragons have the same WS/BS, and one higher I and Ld. Marines have +1S/T. Both have Sv 3+. Dragons have Battle Focus and Fleet. Marines have ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics, frag and krak grenades. Krak doesn't matter mostly because Dragons have melta bombs, but those also make their +1I irrelevant except for Sweeping Advance checks (where Marines have the edge anyway due to ATSKNF).

Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

Also, what counts as playing fair by your standards for Eldar?

jade_angel wrote:Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

The meltaguns and meltabombs alone are worth 15 ppm. Assured destruction + the other fire dragon abilities and statline = 10 points?

Traditio wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Fire Dragons don't need changing, I'm just tackling the units that are TOO strong not that are just strong

A tactical marine with a meltagun is 24 ppm. Add meltabombs and we're at 29 ppm.

Back to wraithknights, do you know what causes problems, lots of plasma guns, I have played against guard where the wraithknight has been downed by veterans with plasma.

Plasma weapons 1. wound on 5s, 2. get hot and 3. do not bypass the FNP.

Let's do the math, assuming a tactical marine:

2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (FNP) X 1/6 (6 wounds) = 4/162 (2/81)

It would take 81/2 plasma shots to take down a wraithknight.

Of those 81/2 plasma shots, 81/2 X 1/6 (81/12 or 6 3/4), would get hot. Of those 6 3/4 gets hot results, 81/12 X 1/3 (81/36, or 2 1/4) would result in plasma gun marine suicide.

"Lots of plasma guns" indeed!

It is not too hard to take down a wraithknight just it needs to be more points so the opponent can combat it and not very steam rolled

I have a better idea. Leave the wraithknight and your other shenanigans on the shelf and play fair.

That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic

jade_angel wrote:Also, what counts as playing fair by your standards for Eldar?

No shenanigans. Not a single one.

If you so much as even think about smiling when you look at the codex entry, get something else instead. Your list building experience should be a painful, excruciating exercise of self-denial and shame.

Try your hardest to lose the game beforehand (while using all available points).

Then it might be a fair fight.


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Korlandril wrote:That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic

The simple fact is that, on average, to knock 6 wounds off of a wraithknight with plasma gun shots, I have to chuck 81/2 dice at it. Within 24 inches of the thing.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

The meltaguns and meltabombs alone are worth 15 ppm. Assured destruction + the other fire dragon abilities and statline = 10 points?

Should have clarified that I meant omitting Assured Destruction altogether. So, maybe 30ppm? Without Assured Destruction, the base abilities without the guns are only worth a little more than a Guardian (due to Ld 9). A Guardian is 9ppm. Dragons lose their plasma grenades, but that mostly doesn't matter, and they do have better Leadership and armor. Also, a lot of weapons get price breaks when the entire squad gets them. Somewhere between 25 and 30, then, and I'll go with 30 since CWE do have other ways to deal with heavy AV and high-T multi-wound stuff.

The issue is that meltabombs and meltaguns are overcosted in 7th ed. Most power units laugh at melta, and that's assuming you survive the mass firepower and live to use them.

Traditio wrote:

Korlandril wrote:That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic

The simple fact is that, on average, to knock 6 wounds off of a wraithknight with plasma gun shots, I have to chuck 81/2 dice at it. Within 24 inches of the thing.

Or you could get lucky and do it with 6 plasma shots that's probability for you

<REDACTED>

It won't happen in 6 in our lifetimes. 81 is the weighted average, so half the time it will take more!

Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

Traditio wrote:
Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

Cool. Does jade_angel get to make your list for you as well?

 Korlandril wrote:
You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

The point is that your statements about what could happen are meaningless. All that matters for balance purposes is what is likely to happen

Martel732 wrote:
It won't happen in 6 in our lifetimes. 81 is the weighted average, so half the time it will take more!

81/2. So more like 41-42 dice.

Note that this doesn't say anything about the number of plasma guns which would be needed. To take that into account, we'd have to factor in marines committing suicide.

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

The point is that your statements about what could happen are meaningless. All that matters for balance purposes is what is likely to happen

No lol I'm not going to teach you statistics

I should hope not.

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jade_angel wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

Cool. Does jade_angel get to make your list for you as well?

Here's my attempt:

SM (Imperial Fists - sub in whatever you like), Gladius Strike Force, 1850 points

Battle Demi-Company
Captain - Artificer Armor, jump pack, bolt pistol, power sword
Assault squad - 10x with jump packs, Vet Sergeant with power sword/bolt pistol, 2x flamers
Devastator Squad - 4x lascannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)
3x Tactical squad - Grav-cannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)

Battle Demi-Company
Chaplain - Jump pack
Bike Squad - 3x bikes with TL boltguns, ordinary Sergeant
Devastator Squad - 4x lascannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)
3x Tactical squad - Grav-cannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)

Armored Task Force
Whirlwind
2x Autolas Predators
Techmarine - Servo-Harness, Bike (attach to bike squad)

Wouldn't stand a chance in hezmana, would it?

I want you to seriously consider this:

What if you played the list that I proposed and you played the list that I proposed.

Sounds like a ton of fun, doesn't it?

Well thanks for the contributions shame some people can't keep on topic...

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 Korlandril wrote:
Well thanks for the contributions shame some people can't keep on topic...

Ok.

Wraithknights should be 410 ppm and limit 1 per game (except in 2000+ points limits games).
Windrider Jetbikes should be 24 ppm with the limitation that they can only use one heavy weapon per 3 models.
Fire dragons should cost 26 ppm.
Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes. The d-scythes should be an additional 10 ppm.
Eldtritch Storm now reads "blast" and "large blast" respectively. Furthermore, it shall read "EITHER haywire OR AP 3; must be chosen before dice are cast."
The psyker powers conferring rerollable saves are replaced with "increase any given save by 1."
Warpspiders may only jump in the movement and assault phases. Instead, they gain the JINK special rule.
Wraithlords should be increased to 150 ppm.
All other models which I haven't mentioned as needing a points increase (including warpspiders) shall have a 10 percent point increase, except for the melee models.

All models which are not on a bike or are not monstrous or equivalent lose the relentless special rule.

The wraith construct auxillary formation should be removed from the game.

All models except the constructs lose fearless and equivalents.

Done. The Eldar codex is now fine.

I think galef's thought to make bladestorm just be shred + autowound on a 6 is a really good one.

It's still really really good, just not 'armor saves are useless against eldar basic weaponry' good.

Traditio just.... just stop. It stopped being funny a while ago.

These changes are ridiculous. Nerfing Wraithlords? The Phoenix Lords? 26pts for a T3 model that dies the turn after it does anything at best? Eldar can't reroll saves but SM can? Warp Spiders should have Jink for some reason? Everything needs a pt increase?

Your ideas are as ridiculous as me claiming that the Tyranid codex is OP and needs nerfing and Space Marines should cost 1ppm for every single unit..

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think galef's thought to make bladestorm just be shred + autowound on a 6 is a really good one.

It's still really really good, just not 'armor saves are useless against eldar basic weaponry' good.

I'll second that, at least for catapults, avenger cats and pistols.

Most of those are in the right direction. Some may have gone too far. Maybe.

But some, I don't think are good.

Wraithlords - why 150 points?

Why does Asurmen lose Fearless (or are you considering Phoenix Lords constructs)? Avatar? I suppose I don't get the fearless complaints. The auto-pass or reroll Aspect shenanigans, sure, but the fearless options seem about right.

The across the board points points increases feel wrong too. Why does a Dire Avenger cost *more* than a Marine? Why does a Guardian cost almost as much as a SoB? Falcons? Fire Prisms?

I think you go too far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shred seems too good.

What about reroll 1s and 6s always wound?

Bharring wrote:
Most of those are in the right direction. Some may have gone too far. Maybe.

But some, I don't think are good.

Wraithlords - why 150 points?

It's a T8 monstrous creature with 3 wounds. If bolters can't kill it, it needs to cost more.

Why does Asurmen lose Fearless (or are you considering Phoenix Lords constructs)? Avatar? I suppose I don't get the fearless complaints. The auto-pass or reroll Aspect shenanigans, sure, but the fearless options seem about right.

HQs and constructs can keep fearless.

Everything else loses it.

The across the board points points increases feel wrong too. Why does a Dire Avenger cost *more* than a Marine?

13 X 1.1 = 14.3. Decimals below .5 can round down.

Why does a Guardian cost almost as much as a SoB?

Because every eldar life is precious.

Falcons? Fire Prisms?

Everything. 10 percent. Decimals round down if the decimal is less than .5.

Bolters can't kill a 35pt rhino. No problem.

Bolters can't kill a 120pt MC with no movement beyond walking? Why is that a problem?

Bharring wrote:
Bolters can't kill a 35pt rhino. No problem.

Yes. Yes they can. Rear AV is 10.

I suppose. I more see the Wraithlord as the analogue of the Dreadnought. It costs about the same and survives about the same.

They aren't good at 120. Why up them to 150?

Bharring wrote:
I suppose. I more see the Wraithlord as the analogue of the Dreadnought. It costs about the same and survives about the same.

They aren't good at 120. Why up them to 150?

I can one-shot a dreadnought with an AP 1 or 2 weapon. I can't one-shot a wraithlord.

As I said. They need to cost more.

However, a single grav-cannon will usually kill a Wraithlord that's not in cover. A few lascannons reliably get the job done too.

It's fairly difficult to kill without dedicated firepower, but no more so than an Ironclad Dreadnought. It can take decent guns, sure, but so can a Falcon, and usually I'd rather have a Falcon, because it's faster and also a transport. It's more vulnerable to assault, but a bit less vulnerable to strong AP because of Jink and holo-fields. (Though AP1/2 can instakill it).

That's at current prices. Hike the WL up to 150 and it definitely sits on the shelf full-time, instead of 99% of the time.

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

The guns also cost a lot more on the Wraithlord than other platforms. He doesn't get the "normal" costs.

You can oneshot a Wraithlord with anything ID. Which typically do nothing to a vehicle. And its vulnerable to S5 and the Dread isn't.

Lots of tradeoffs. GW seemed to get those two about equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He's also saying the Falcon needs to be about 150 stock, more with weapons.

jade_angel wrote:
That's at current prices. Hike the WL up to 150 and it definitely sits on the shelf full-time, instead of 99% of the time.

Lol.

No it won't. If an eldar wants to run the wraithhost (and we know he will), he'll pay the extra 40 points for the wraithlord.

It's either that or no formation.

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

Yes. Precious heavy support/elites that I should be using for something else.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

Yes. Precious heavy support/elites that I should be using for something else.

If you don't believe in taking anti tank weapons then you're worse than I thought you were. In no way does forcing you to use anti tank weapons make it unfair. Or will you argue that a Rhino is OP?