I posted previously about this, but I'd like to hear some opinions now that I got some more data. I prepared a short summary in form of a visual aid, primarily to avoid repetition.

To me it appears as if the following happened:
1) The authors of the Angels of Death - Strike Forces of the Space Marines - Supplement had a fairly clear idea of a Supplement for the Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines in mind and expressed this in the book. The rules in the book clearly grant permission to psykers with the Space Marine Faction to access the new psychic disciplines. Also each of the formations carries the Space Marine Faction icon.

2) The marketing department either misunderstood the BRB-defined term "the Space Marine faction" or decided to share the stuff around and added the AoD book to each blue-team Power Armour faction in the webshop. In the same direction, the gaming aid, side selling card deck was whipped up, with a reference card following the marketing misunderstanding (or decision).

3) The internet read the powers, saw that they were OP and wanted them. 10 bucks for a whole bunch of new options? AWESOME!
Rules? Who cares about rules? I was promised awesome, look I got a card that says my faction can access this discipline!

Obiously, this leaves the question: Which units in the four factions (with access to the discipline by the grace of marketing) can use them?
Since no unit has explict permission, I'd say: none. Total shocker, this isn't the most popular view! ;-]

Given that SM do not get access to SW or DA private disciplines, nor the ability to cast Santic powers like Grey Knights, I cannot see any logical reason why the later should get all the goodies the SM got.

I'd love to hear what your take is, in particular what you think the RAW, RAI and HIWPI are here.

While I admit, RAW doesn't specify which units can take them, I also wouldn't consider the reference card to be advertising.

I also don't know why you would think it more likely that the card AND the web page are mistaken as opposed to the book. clearly one is wrong, but I don't try to claim that I know which one

It specifically says in the pack of cards on the reference card, that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights can use them.
Angels of Death is specifically a Space Marines supplement. They don't need to print in there that Space Wolves, et al can use these too. It doesn't for example, say in codex space marines, in the wargear section, that Blood Angels can use Boltguns, it doesn't need to. That book isn't about the blood Angels.

The cards themselves are very clear. I fail to see where the confusion lies here and feel your trying to make problems where there aren't any.

The problem is the card is not specific in which units in those armies can take them.
We had the same drama with Daemons in the first 7th ed power cards set. they were listed as being able to use anything other than santic and force, which lead to people trying to roll on telepathy with pink horrors and stuff.

 General Kroll wrote:
It specifically says in the pack of cards on the reference card, that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights can use them.

Yes. The reference card indicates access for those factions to those disciplines. Please indicate which units can use them and where you find the permission.

 General Kroll wrote:

Angels of Death is specifically a Space Marines supplement. They don't need to print in there that Space Wolves, et al can use these too. It doesn't for example, say in codex space marines, in the wargear section, that Blood Angels can use Boltguns, it doesn't need to. That book isn't about the blood Angels.

I think you contradict yourself there. Angels of Death IS specifically a Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines Supplement. That is why it the sub-title is "Strike Forces of the Space Marines" and why the PSI rules and each formation reference the (THE!) Space Marines Faction as requirement. While we all know that all factions you mentioned are super-friends, they are not identical and are distinct Codices. I cannot take a Wolf-mount on a generic Space Marine Captain and Wolf-Marines cannot use the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, since those units lack the permission to access these faction specfic options.

 General Kroll wrote:

The cards themselves are very clear. I fail to see where the confusion lies here and feel your trying to make problems where there aren't any.

The quick reference card is not rules. The cards are very handy, but entirely optional. The Supplement - while convenitently ignored - contains the necessary rules and people should have the rules they want to use at hand.
Even if the quick reference card would have rule status, it is not actually grant permission to any individual unit in those factions. Compare the card's checkmark with the explicit permission in the AoD Supplement or the explicit permission in the 7th Edition BRB granting access to Santic and Malefic Daemonology. Obviously, from a rules perspective, putting out the card deck (including a quick reference sheet) is insuficient and an explicit rule granting permission to access is required.

Rules and advertising do not match - that is the cause of the confusion. Advertising for all factions pinns them as AWESOME, but we all know that advertising has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I stand by my original comment that your just trying to find problems that aren't there.

Seriously, which units do YOU think would be able to use the new powers? That's rhetorical by the way. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that's not trying to make an issue out of nothing.

The cards are optional, sure. But they are still a supplement to the game, the stuff contained within them are still rules for the game. And those rules clearly state the psychic powers are available to all the various marine factions.

 jokerkd wrote:
...
I also don't know why you would think it more likely that the card AND the web page are mistaken as opposed to the book. clearly one is wrong, but I don't try to claim that I know which one

Quite simply because I bought and read the Angels of Death book. It states right on there that it is a Supplement for Codex Space Marines (see attachment).
Every Formation, every warlord trait, every relic, every Psychic Discipline, yes every bit of fluff is marked as pertaining to Codex Space Marines.
There is not a single word mentioned in the whole book about Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels or Grey Knights.

 General Kroll wrote:
I stand by my original comment that your just trying to find problems that aren't there.
Seriously, which units do YOU think would be able to use the new powers? That's rhetorical by the way. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that's not trying to make an issue out of nothing.

The issue is quite frankly that nobody else attempts to use powers or gear from other codices without detachments from those codices.
The problem isn't me, it's people who don't bother to read the rules or deliberately ignore them to their benefit.

Also, assuming there is more than one unit with the psyker rule in the factions trying to assimilate these powers, who is to say that each of these units will get access?
The reference card tick only means - or used to mean - that at least one unit in that faction, somehow (e.g. artifact) has (or will have, in the future) permission to access the discipline.
It does not detail which though, for that you have to buy the rules.

 General Kroll wrote:

The cards are optional, sure. But they are still a supplement to the game, the stuff contained within them are still rules for the game. And those rules clearly state the psychic powers are available to all the various marine factions.

The individual power cards do carry a copy of the rules found in the book for convenience. The deck is NOT marked as a supplement, unlike actual (rule/game) supplements. It isn't a game expansion by itself.

The rules in the angels of death specifically state that units from the Codex:Space Marines can use them. So basically only space marine librarians can use them.

Doesn't matter for BA, because we can't field enough psykers to do anything anyway.

My GK codex says that my Libby can roll on a few specific disciplines. The new 4 are not included in that rule.
Generating from a discipline I do not have permission to generate from is not allowed.

Maybe this will help clarify:
If you think that GK can generate the new powers, which units in the GK book can do so?
And specifically, can or cannot Draigo generate from Fulmination?
If he can't, is it because his unit entry doesn't let him? If this is the case, the GK Libby's unit entry also does not let him generate from Fulmination. Why are you treating the two similar (identical?) situations differently?

My play group is going with the cards.

Your GK libbies can’t generate psychic powers from dark angels interomancy for the the same reason they can’t generate from librarius and fulmination. They are codex specific powers. No worries though. Librarius conclave is available to all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
My play group is going with the cards.

Let me guess - they play space wolves...?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Your GK libbies can’t generate psychic powers from dark angels interomancy for the the same reason they can’t generate from librarius and fulmination. They are codex specific powers. No worries though. Librarius conclave is available to all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
My play group is going with the cards.

Let me guess - they play space wolves...?

Some of them do. But just in general, the more things to be abused, the better I guess. As I said, doesn't really help me anyway, so the Xenos don't have to worry about their perfect records.

I feel like GW gives its player way too much credit. They apparently thought we were smart enough to figure out this vague yet obvious rules "issue".

Yes, we Blood Angels are far too powerful already to use these cards. Wouldn't want to break the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't matter for BA, because we can't field enough psykers to do anything anyway.

I tried them out with just two Librarians and had some success. Fulmination on Mephiston was pretty fun.

I guess they would work vs Tau.

 EnTyme wrote:
I feel like GW gives its player way too much credit. They apparently thought we were smart enough to figure out this vague yet obvious rules "issue".

Yeah, it's clear from threads like this that some players need their hands held on every little rules query.

Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

I understand the RAW of the supplement says C:SM. What I don't understand is the argument people are trying to use that's essentially "If RAI was for all of them to use it, why doesn't it say so in their codex entries?"

Because supplements come out later, and alter existing rules. This is not an actual argument pertaining to whether or not GK are supposed to be able to use these powers. This is just saying "preexisting rules say THIS." The debate is whether or not this supplement changes those preexisting rules, not what the preexisting rules are.

That said, if I were to bring my BA and wanted to use these powers, and my opponent got all rules-lawyer on me, I'd probably just say forget it and move on. I really don't think this issue is worth being this nitpicky about. If I own something, and can point to other places, where the creator says I can use it, I see no reason anyone should expect me to not use it if I'd like. As far as the OP's question, Librarians is my answer. Now that would get muddy with named characters, I guess. And HIWPI is just that any space marine (all factions) psyker would be fine, just because it's all for kicks anyway. Tournaments will of course have their own guidelines that I won't argue with.

Hopefully I don't sound argumentative. These are my opinions. The format of the OP is asking opinions, [snip argumentative sounding portion]. Feel good! It's 40k and it's a blast!

I wouldn't really call it rules lawering. The supplement is for codex space marines and it is explicit in stating that units from codex space marines have access to all the powers in the supplement. In the supplement it does not state BA, SW, GK, and DA have access to these powers. A pack of reference cards supposedly states that these chapters do have access...the debate is - do psychic cards hold the weight of rules? I would say no. I am not biased here...I am a GK player after all and these powers really help GK out BIG TIME. Plus - libby conclave exists...

 Xenomancers wrote:
I wouldn't really call it rules lawering. The supplement is for codex space marines and it is explicit in stating that units from codex space marines have access to all the powers in the supplement. In the supplement it does not state BA, SW, GK, and DA have access to these powers. A pack of reference cards supposedly states that these chapters do have access...the debate is - do psychic cards hold the weight of rules? I would say no. I am not biased here...I am a GK player after all and these powers really help GK out BIG TIME. Plus - libby conclave exists...

You're right, calling it rules lawyering is probably going too far. The supplement says C:SM only, but if someone buys it because the site and cards tell us we can use it, I would still consider it being somewhat of a donkey cave move to tell a person no.

And yeah, libby conclave exists, for people that want to use it. But if I wanted to use just a librarian dreadnought rolling technomancy (viability and fun levels irrelevant for this discussion), and see "Oh wow I can buy the supplement, it says it's for everyone!" only to have someone tell me "No I refuse to allow you to do this in a casual game," I wouldn't be very happy and really don't see the need. Is it GW's fault there's any confusion at all? Yes. So as usual in this situation, opinions will vary, and you'll have to talk it out with your opponent.

I actually agree that reference cards don't substitute as rules. And neither do product descriptions on a website. But people are buying the book and cards in good faith that they can use them. Who does it hurt? (Don't use that statement to slide down slippery slopes, anyone, please.)

It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

BossJakadakk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

Lucky you.

 EnTyme wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It hurts people who have a TWC unit teleport right next to them and assault.

Okay haha you got me there. I don't deal with space wolves much.

Lucky you.

Yup.

I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

I may be. It actually does advertise in the description that the powers can be used by SW, etc., though. I checked the GW page for Angels of Death before posting here to make sure I remembered it correctly.

"-four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch"

And then the cards.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I see what you are saying bossjak - but I think you are blurring the lines a bit. Imagine I buy the wolfen supplement hoping to find some cool rules for my Ultramarines in there. Nope - just loads of gakky space wolf stuff in there. I don't see this being any different. They get Wolfen - I don't and I'm fine with this. Angels of death was never advertised as anything but a vanilla friendly supplement ether. It literally tells you in the description of the product that it only includes rules for whitescars, ironhands, salamanders, crimson fists ect. Never mentions SW, BA, GK, DA.

I may be. It actually does advertise in the description that the powers can be used by SW, etc., though. I checked the GW page for Angels of Death before posting here to make sure I remembered it correctly.

"-four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch"

And then the cards.

As I included in my summary, yes, GW does advertise access to the disciplines for the four special, non-spikey marine factions.
Question (tongue-in-cheek): if I buy a decorative sword on Amazon with the description "real Excalibur, grants the right to rule England" and find out that the English beg to differ - is the problem that they are being obtuse or might misleading advertising be root cause?

Now obviously, the hypothetical decorative swords salesman is unlikely to be able to correct his false advertising by bringing those Englishmen to heel. In that respect the situation with GW is different. Even if the root cause is some moronic mistake made after the SM-Supplement went to print and before the stuff hit the website, they can - by issuing an edict commonly known as FAQ - make it so that the apparent marketing mess becomes fact. On the bright side, this would of course mollify all the people who's expectations were raised, while on the flip side, it would shift the codex balance from bad to worse.

Posts like these make me think sometimes we need to take a breath and just play the game for the reason we all started it.

Which probably wasn't to debate thin grey lines.

If TWC and Wuflen weren't so crazy, it wouldn't matter as much. GW's mistakes compound on themselves.

HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

 General Kroll wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

Is this really a discussion? The cards are a part of the game released specifically for games of 40K, and the cards clearly state that the other specific chapters can use them. end of story.

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't blame players for GW's lack of English skills. Ironic, given where they are from.

Yeah, the cards are explicit, but it's arguable as to whether they are rules in and of themselves. I guess.

GW are guilty of many many cases of ambiguity and cons fusing rules. This really isn't one of them. This is very much a case of people rules lawyering for the sake of it.

If people can't see the clear intention for these cards to be used by The other Space Marine factions, then there's really no helping them. GWs rules cock ups are bad enough, but there are a certain set of players who act in an incredibly unreasonable way when presented with even the slightest of ambiguities.

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

It's an explicit power card vs an implicit "no" from the book. I honestly don't know. How can GW screw up something so simple?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

That sounds like a trap question, but I will answer it anyway.

The chart below grants Grey Knights access to the Fulmination powers, yes.

However, Strike Squads, as you well know, have access to: with Hammerhand and Force powers (correct?), and that's it. I would not say that they get it.

HIWPI, part 2. Grey Knight Librarians could. Other Grey knights that have access to multiple disciplines rather than a few very specific powers could, too. If there are any.

Martel732 wrote:
...
I honestly don't know. How can GW screw up something so simple?

Teamwork? I mean, it appears to me that:
1) some writers wrote a nice and concise codex supplement.
2) someone copy-pasted the powers into the card template and had to fill out the quick reference card. <- My guess is that person is ignorant of "Space Marine Faction" being a defined term from the BRB rather than an attempt to describe all good guy power armor factions
3) Other people got the marketing stuff started, wrote the copy for the website, basing themselves on the book and deciding to shoe-horn the output of (2) in.

I don't want to attribute to malice what can be explained by people messing up. That is why I guess that whoever copy-pasta-ed the cards is the cuplrit.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

As I'm sure you know, strike squads cannot generate from ANY discipline. So this is a terrible way to try and get your point across

 Sheit27 wrote:
Posts like these make me think sometimes we need to take a breath and just play the game for the reason we all started it.

Which probably wasn't to debate thin grey lines.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course it would help if those grey lines weren't there for people to try and exploit and try to turn the game into an episode of Judge Judy.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Funny, I don't feel unreasonable at all. I am considering all the sides in a calm, rational manner. It seems to me that it is unreasonable to start calling people names.
Let me ask you specifically: can a Libby Dread generate powers from these new disciplines? Why or why not? What about Draigo and Njall?

I reject the assertion that I've called anyone names, by all means report the offending post if you truly believe that's what I've been doing. As for your demands that I answer what units I think can take these powers I think it's pretty obvious, that any psyker (from the relevant factions) that doesn't have a specific power listed on their dataslate can take them.

Could GW have made this all a bit clearer? Sure, have you ever read a GW rule book that couldn't use a tidy up? But is it easy enough to pick out what was clearly intended here? Of course it is.

Like others have said, let's just play the damn game and have fun.

Oh and by the way, it's completely possible to be both calm, rational and unreasonable at the same time.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Psychic-Powers-Adeptus-Astartes-ENG-2016

Description:
A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian (even a Space Wolves Rune Priest – these are for every Chapter!), each consisting of seven psychic powers

They are clearly lying about their own products, right? This topic is a prime example of people wanting to find problems where there are none.

 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 kronk wrote:
HIWPI: What it says on the card until an FAQ comes out.

So my GK Strike Squads can generate from Fulmination?

That sounds like a trap question, but I will answer it anyway.

The chart below grants Grey Knights access to the Fulmination powers, yes.

However, Strike Squads, as you well know, have access to: with Hammerhand and Force powers (correct?), and that's it. I would not say that they get it.

HIWPI, part 2. Grey Knight Librarians could. Other Grey knights that have access to multiple disciplines rather than a few very specific powers could, too. If there are any.

If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

 kronk wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

You and I are, yes.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 kronk wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:


If you have a unit that gets preset powers, how is it suddenly going to be able to generate new powers?

However, if you have a unit (librarians as called out by the advert) that generates powers prior to the game randomly, those are the units that can roll on these tables.

That's what I am saying, yes. I believe we are in agreement.

You and I are, yes.

Great! I'm off for a beer, then!

Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

Okay man, you do you!

I would say having preset powers makes you unable to use the reference card because having preset powers historically has prevented units from using other reference cards, but it's all HIWPI and that's just my personal reasoning.

Because having preset powers means you cannot generate any powers at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thankfully, TO's, store managers, and my own gaming group are ok with it.

Like I said before, RAW, without specified units, it doesn't work. RAI however, is very, very clear. Maybe some people expected the faqs to be out by now. Who knows?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

Probably because that is what it states under the section of "Generating Psychic Powers"?

Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

According to my digital codex they can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

The refererence card begs to differ.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


Second Paragraph:

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Now, it could be that they still have access to "knowing" the Discipline, but they have no authority to generate Powers from them while all the Powers they can generate are already determined.

So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

I don't see the willy-nillyness. No one is saying my eldar are taking geomancy with absolutely nothing backing it up. This is a specific situation with specific things involved.

It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

The specific power cards are more compelling. And apparently it's RAI for sure in this case.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
So how do I know which psychic disciplines my Librarian knows? I would say it's only by looking at my dataslate, with consideration to any errata that may affect the slate.
I certainly wouldn't say that I can add disciplines willy-nilly to my dataslate.

Nor do the datasheets state you cannot add Disciplines, as someone pointed out, previously.

In most cases, yes, it is what is on the datasheet. However, this supplement adds to those list of Discipliness normally available in those cases where they do generate randomly from a Discipline instead of the specific list(s) of Powers.

As an official item made by the producer of all products involved, it has merit.

According to General Kroll, space marines are able to summon daemons.

The intention seems to be that all chapters would have access based on the card and what the site says. They printed the book differently than they claim it is.

You keep talking about my interpretation of the card, I've barely even mentioned it. I'm mostly going off the site descriptions for the deck (which does include the card I know, but that's not what I'm basing my HIWPI on) and book.


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And my HIWPI is that if someone in good faith bought the book (because unless they're seeing specific forums like this one where it's pointed out that the book says C:SM ONLY) for the new powers, when GW is TELLING US ALL that all chapters get to use them, I'd let them use it.

Remember that people are buying the book and cards under the impression that they're allowed to use them. An impression given to them by the maker of the product. An impression only proven wrong by one sentence that will be overlooked by multitudes of people as they skip past it to read the powers that they've already been told they can use.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

What are you talking about? Conclaves CAN take daemonology!

Not only does the rulebook state that all psykers other than tyranids can take daemonology, but i believe that every codex faq since 7th dropped has added it aswell


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

I must have missed this one earlier. This is simply not true and does nothing but diminish the credibility of your argument

BossJakadakk wrote:
As an official item made by the producer of all products involved, it has merit.

According to General Kroll, space marines are able to summon daemons.

The intention seems to be that all chapters would have access based on the card and what the site says. They printed the book differently than they claim it is.

You keep talking about my interpretation of the card, I've barely even mentioned it. I'm mostly going off the site descriptions for the deck (which does include the card I know, but that's not what I'm basing my HIWPI on) and book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my HIWPI is that if someone in good faith bought the book (because unless they're seeing specific forums like this one where it's pointed out that the book says C:SM ONLY) for the new powers, when GW is TELLING US ALL that all chapters get to use them, I'd let them use it.

Remember that people are buying the book and cards under the impression that they're allowed to use them. An impression given to them by the maker of the product. An impression only proven wrong by one sentence that will be overlooked by multitudes of people as they skip past it to read the powers that they've already been told they can use.

Indeed. It is a whole case of allowing the supplement or not. Either you allow the supplement, and it adding the Psychic Powers as needed, or you do not, at which point none of the detachments are available either. You cannot have it both ways.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It literally is willy nilly. I can use same reference card to summon deamons with my librarius conclave on a 2+. This clearly is not legal - nether is your interpretation of the reference card. The card is inadmissible as a rules source for 2 reasons...number 1 - it is not a valid rules source. Number 2 it is erroneous on multiple occasions.

What are you talking about? Conclaves CAN take daemonology!

Not only does the rulebook state that all psykers other than tyranids can take daemonology, but i believe that every codex faq since 7th dropped has added it aswell


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but the refference card is gak...space marines CAN NOT generate from demonology santic or malefic...no imperial faction I can think of can generate from malefic. Is this not a clear indication that the card is gak? Or am I just talking out of my bum here?

I must have missed this one earlier. This is simply not true and does nothing but diminish the credibility of your argument

I own every chapters codex and astra militarum. Not a single unit with deamonolgy malefic listed. They were all released at the same time or after the rulebook. Every psyker has a list of what powers they can chose from and demonology malefic is specifically omitted because they aren't intended to use it - for obvious reasons. GW had ample opportunity to correct any errors or omissions they left out in every codex release...yet did nothing. So you still want to say space marine librarians can summon daemons from demonology? Okay...you win.

I think BA just says demonology. Not sure though.

Have you read any faqs for those books?
The very first amendment in the 7th ed update for the 6th ed DA codex states all psykers can take daemonolgy as well as any other disciplines listed. This was obviously omitted from the 7th ed codex faq because that codex has daemonology listed on the libby's datasheet.

I've checked the Ebooks (most up to date rules) for space marines, DA and the wolves. All of which list daemonology under available disciplines.

@Xenomancers
My Space Marine Codex includes Daemonology in the list of disciplines accessible to Librarians. No idea about the special marine codices, but that one has it.

As stated, I don't dispute the reference card's existence or content, but at best the card points to future publiation providing rules that specify which units are permitted access to which disciplines.

The assumption seems to be all units get all disciplines. Yet, it might just as well be limited to named characters, dependent on buying upgrades or come at a point cost. As evident by the rule granting access Daemonology in the BRB, terms and conditions may apply.

Martel732 wrote:
I think BA just says demonology. Not sure though.

They all do. Daemonology includes santic and malefic. Unless stated otherwise (grey knights and eldar both state santic iirc) every psyker can take both

Why on earth would the SPACE MARINE supplement call out the SW, DA, BA, ect rules?


the space marine supplement doesnt give the other chapters permission to use the new disciplines, because its not a book of rules for those factions.. it gives permission only to codex SM.


SW, BA, DA GK all still get access to the new powers because the powers themselves have rules that are released 100% independantly of the SM supplement (the cards) which spell out who gets what.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

 easysauce wrote:
Why on earth would the SPACE MARINE supplement call out the SW, DA, BA, ect rules?


the space marine supplement doesnt give the other chapters permission to use the new disciplines, because its not a book of rules for those factions.. it gives permission only to codex SM.


SW, BA, DA GK all still get access to the new powers because the powers themselves have rules that are released 100% independantly of the SM supplement (the cards) which spell out who gets what.

So you are saying, that it is logical to find no mention of special marines in the space marine supplement, but that the cards deliberately were published independent of that and clarify access.

Why does GW's webshop list the AoD book in the special marine categories?
I posit that this supports my position of a marketing fuckup.


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 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

Is that the card product description in the webshop?
If yes, that is not a rule. It slso does not match the rule in the AOD book, which includes all psykers with the Space Marine Faction.

Next, an Space Wolf Rune Priest might not be best pleased that only units called "space marine librarian" get access.

 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

although I'd be happy to allow GK Brother-Captains and GK Grandmasters access to said powers as well.

The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules. Reference cards in particular have been very misleading in the past, for instance listing CSM as having access to Divination. Technically correct but only possible for a single CSM unit selected from a codex supplement and taking a specific relic.

As it stands only the SM have access to these new powers but I expect it is the RAI for GK etc to get them too and would be OK with this for HIWPI. Those codexes just need an FAQ to confirm this which should be in the pipeline. Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

Pleas define when a rule statement is not rules

"Its not in a codex" (or similar) just doesnt cut it any longer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pleas define when a rule statement is not rules

"Its not in a codex" (or similar) just doesnt cut it any longer.

I'd say a reference card could count as rules, but there's one very important detail: It does not grant any UNIT access to any discipline. It's an overview of what disciplines are available to what Faction in theory. A unit must have specific access to a discipline to actually use it - either by a rule explicitly telling you to add it to the available disciplines or simply by saying so on the datasheet.

Inquisition as a Faction has access to ALL disciplines as per the Psychic Powers Reference card.
Not one model from Codex:Inquisition actually has access to Biomancy.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

the rulebook itself allowed every psyker in the game (excluding nids) to use daemonology from the release of 7th

 jokerkd wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

the rulebook itself allowed every psyker in the game (excluding nids) to use daemonology from the release of 7th

Not sure how this is relevant. They still FAQed the codexes to detail it. The point was that the new SM supplement allows SM to use the new powers but as far as I understand it there's no mention of GK etc, contrary to your BRB example. So the other codexes need an FAQ to allow using the new powers.

As I already said, I think the RAI is probably that they can use them and I would expect an imminent FAQ to clarify as such.

The situation we have here is GW told BA, DA, SW, and GK's players they can use the cards. And since GW won't be offering refunds to those of us who purchased them. I'm going to use the fething cards. And those of you who feel GW didn't do it right, get the joy of appearing magnanimous while condescendingly judging us for it at the same time.

So sounds like a win for both sides.

Considering GW has had three weeks to correct the "error" on the website (and I guarantee at least one person has pointed it out to them), I would say it is intentional.

Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules.

Why wouldn't reference cards published by GW definite rules? I don't follow the logic here.

Naw wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules.

Why wouldn't reference cards published by GW definite rules? I don't follow the logic here.

Because the definitive rules regarding which psychic disciplines units can use are listed on their army list entries or as modified by FAQ or supplements. If you only looked at the reference cards you could have Tzeentch daemons rolling on Telepathy or Slaanesh daemons rolling on Biomancy etc which isn't allowed.

Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

That's his point. If BA/DA/GK can use the new powers (with no mention of which units can), then Slaanesh can roll on Biomancy, since Biomancy is listed as a CD discipline on the card. So either, non-SM cannot currently use the powers (to be more precise they theoretically can, but no unit actually has access), or we treat the Reference card as absolute truth, and any Daemon can roll on Biomancy, and any CSM psyker can roll on Divination.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

That's his point. If BA/DA/GK can use the new powers (with no mention of which units can), then Slaanesh can roll on Biomancy, since Biomancy is listed as a CD discipline on the card. So either, non-SM cannot currently use the powers (to be more precise they theoretically can, but no unit actually has access), or we treat the Reference card as absolute truth, and any Daemon can roll on Biomancy, and any CSM psyker can roll on Divination.

Indeed. So currently your first scenario is the absolute RAW. I'd just like to clarify I believe the RAI is for GK etc to have access and I'd have no problem with this, they just need to FAQ the relevant codexes. I'm sure I'd get some funny looks if I started rolling on Telepathy with pink horrors.

I'd give you more than a funny look. I'd tell you it was illegal, and I'd be right.

Just like I'd tell you that currently it's illegal for non-SM marines to roll on Librarius, and I'd be right.

If you ("you" being all y'all) take this holy reference card to be rules, then you MUST allow Horrors to roll biomancy. (Which I actually would like to try out in a game. Imagine all that Smash....)

We a little more context than just the card though

 jokerkd wrote:
We a little more context than just the card though

Thats nice, but not a rule.

RAW, by the reference card, the factions have access to them.
However that is meaningless as RAW none of the units in said factions (except Space Marines) is given specific permission to roll on them, like how the Daemon faction has access to Biomancy but Pink Horrors aren't given the specific permission required to generate powers from Biomancy.

For what its worth, I'd have no problem with GK/DA/BA psykers who generate random powers having access to these powers. Those who have set powers, is different.

I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

 jokerkd wrote:
I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

RAI isn't "clear as day" as reference cards simply do not give all psykers in a Faction access. At best it's "confusing as gak" because they're not clarifying which units get access to which discipline, and that's information we really need. I really don't think they meant for the DW guy who's limited to Biomancy to suddenly be limited to "Biomancy, and these new disciplines, too" - just as an example.

 jokerkd wrote:
I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

An FAQ granting explicit access is likely. Not because that was RAI, but to recover from the misleading advertising situation, which is more serious than they have ever taken game balance.

My hope is, that instead of a blanket permission which includes the last DW git and GK fixed power units, they are a bit more selective in who gets what. A bike could give a librarisn x, while another upgrade could give y. Unfortunatly, even if they limit who gets what, that'll still most likely and most unnecessarily buff Space Wolves.

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

Yes they are, but they are inadequate to determine which units can use which disciplines

RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

nosferatu1001 wrote:RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

As I already said:

I'd say a reference card could count as rules, but there's one very important detail: It does not grant any UNIT access to any discipline. It's an overview of what disciplines are available to what Faction in theory. A unit must have specific access to a discipline to actually use it - either by a rule explicitly telling you to add it to the available disciplines or simply by saying so on the datasheet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

The power cards themselves are a copy-pasta of the rules in the supplement - which is rules - therefore the power cards do indeed contain a copy of rules text.

The Quick Reference card is exactly that: a quick reference, a summary, not the source/rule material. Now, while I don't see any arguments in favour of the quick reference card being "rules", proving or disproving its rule status is redundant because it is not sufficiently specifc to be used in the game. It does not contain instructions, permissions or restrictions to follow (rules). The cards simply imply access for the four special marine factions.
You read this as "The Space Wolf faction has access to the Geokinesis discipline" or maybe "All Psykers with the Space Wolf faction have access to the Geokinesis discipline."
However, what it actually says is "Some rule, somewhere, grants (or will when published later grant) someone with the Space Wolves Faction the permission to generate powers from the Geokinesis discipline."

That is how it works, for all factions, for all disciplines and for all quick reference cards contained in power card decks published so far. An overview is provided, but there is always either a blanket rule granting permission to specific units in a faction to generate from a given discipline, or many individual rules that lay out who may generate from which discipline. That is why there is rule granting access to Daemonlogy in the BRB. That is why AoD includes:
Explixt RAW: "Any Psyker with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to other disciplines they have access to."

Now, in the absence of a rule granting access for your faction and with the implication of the checkmark teasing, you can of course close your eyes and make up your own rule. Your position seems to imply the following:
nosferatu1001 HIWPI: "All psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can obviously use the new Faction Space Marine Psychic disciplines too!"

While making stuff up, you need of course accept that others might feel entitled to the same priviledge:
HIWPI #7321: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, but using this option prohibits them from generating any powers from other disciplines besides those four or using fixed powers."
HIWPI #1685: "AnyPsykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions within an Allied Detachment taken next to a Primary Detachment with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
HIWPI #1231: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their psychic powers from additional disciplines when purchasing options as detailed here. Units that do not have the option to purchase the option cannot gain access to the disciplines. Terminator Armour grants access to the Geokinesis discpline. A bike grants access to the Technomancy discipline. ..."
HIWPI #6143: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines as long as the player recites all 14 verses of the Litany of Entitlement detailed below, wears the special power paper crown (template provided below) and can show the proof of purchase for their copy of the Angels of Death supplement."
HIWPI #2643: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines in addition to any other disciplines they have access to, if they purchase a correspondence degree course of study from Prof. Tigerius' School for AWESOME marines at a point cost of 10 points per mastery level of the model in question."

The HIWPI examples are meant to be good-natured humourous examples, but I think they bring across the point that you assume the text of the non-existent rule to be as wide as the SM rule is, while ignoring that the four factions in question have a very wide array of very dissimilar psyker units with completely different access to psychic disciplines. We are not talking just SM-Librarians and one or two named characters here.

So, I've been talking to one of the guys from the facebook page (I know I know) those guys obviously have no say in the writing of the rules, but are part of the marketing team

Obviously nothing he said regarding the upcoming faqs is worth repeating, but it was clear that the other chapters having access to the disciplines is no mistake on anyone's part

 jokerkd wrote:
So, I've been talking to one of the guys from the facebook page (I know I know) those guys obviously have no say in the writing of the rules, but are part of the marketing team

Obviously nothing he said regarding the upcoming faqs is worth repeating, but it was clear that the other chapters having access to the disciplines is no mistake on anyone's part

As a marketing guy he has to say that. Unless they FAQ it, he might even be right. That is, if they were planning to publish rules for the special marines in due course and the reference card simply reflects those unpublished rules. If they then do not reprint the new disciplines in that book, they even have an excuse for placing AOD in each of the special marine webshop categories.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

I am NOT saying that they shouldn't be available, but in the case of the BA, GK, DA, and SW Librarians, what disciplines they can use is explicitly shown in their datasheet. All the card does is say they available to that particular army. Same goes for the Deathwatch Librarian. I am not saying they shouldn't be able to get access to the Disciplines, just nothing actually gives Librarians (and their derivatives) access to those powers. If the card said something like "Librarians from the following chapters have access to the following disciplines" I would have no issue.

ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

Like I said, I am not disagreeing with the idea that they should have access, it is just a little sketchy at the moment. Am I going to make use of the Fulmination Discipline to give Mephiston a 3++? You bet I am! Am I going to lose my cool when the Space Wolf player rocks Geokinesis against me? NOPE! I just think a little clarification on the part of GW is needed. This also opens up the possibility to run the Librarian from the Deathwatch with the new disciplines as well.

Oh more clarity is always wanted - however its hard to state these a) arent rules (they are) and b) that there isnt precedent for gaining acess to disciplines outside of the dataslate before now

Jsut because *other* reference cards have issues doesnt mean you have to dismiss these immediately.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh more clarity is always wanted - however its hard to state these a) arent rules (they are) and b) that there isnt precedent for gaining acess to disciplines outside of the dataslate before now

Jsut because *other* reference cards have issues doesnt mean you have to dismiss these immediately.

So does that mean that Daemons of Slaanesh and Tzeentch psykers can roll on Biomancy?

As I said: problems with other cards doesnt mean you can dismiss these cards

Plus, go for it! Obviously only if you can generate powers at all, and dont have fixed ones.

Quite frankly, after these latest sets of FAQs and their more ... interesting making it up as they go along answers, RAW is dead as a concept anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

A rule in the BRB grants access for all but a few units to Daemonology. Since Daemonology was introduced with this publication, that is the only way to get access, since the previously published codices obviously could not provide rules granting access to something that did not exist when they were written.

A rule in AOD grants access all psykers with the SM faction to the new powers. Note that this is s definte, clear permission rule that defines who exactly can do what and under which conditions.

All BA, DA, SW and GK units have exactly what you state here "potential access", not actual or definite access. As I explained in reply to your earlier assertion, you misunderstand the meaning of the checkmark.
At least one unit in that faction has - or will get - a rule that - possibly with conditions - grants access to this discipline.

"Issues with other cards" are what is called precedent. Established procedure, rather than making stuff up. The Quick Reference card in this new deck isn't distinguished in any way from the others we have seen in7th ed.

This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Quite frankly, after these latest sets of FAQs and their more ... interesting making it up as they go along answers, RAW is dead as a concept anyway.

Thank goodness. The number of people hammering on about RAW, and then finding out that GW FAQ'd or erratad in the other direction was mindboggling. My rule of thumb is when things really aren't clear, is to take the least powerful interpretation. Hasn't led me wrong since 2nd edition.

As a BA player, as it stands at the moment, all of my Librarians/Dread Librarians/Mephiston/etc. all have a list of which psyker powers I can choose from. So, I'll be playing it that I can't use these cards pending two options: 1) GW FAQs it in their upcoming codex-specific FAQs, or 2) my opponent lets me use them. Since I play with a long-time group, I'm sure #2 will be no problem at all.

So we can go around and around with this till the cows come home, and no one will be satisfied. Talk to you opponent, and wait for the FAQ.

 jokerkd wrote:
This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

Resolved.
Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

 deviantduck wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

Resolved.
Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

Is a facebook post of a first draft (which they managed to feth up from the start) RAW?

Reread my post assuming i had read the FAQ. My point is, we have clear evidence that both will happen as we expect, but the fact that we dont have it in official rules yet is apparently reason to keep debating

 jokerkd wrote:
...
My point is, we have clear evidence that both will happen as we expect, but the fact that we dont have it in official rules yet is apparently reason to keep debating

We'll will hear something official about this sooner or later, but I don't believe the facebook claim of "no mistake", since I see no way to evaluate the relevant statements in GW rules and advertising as true with that constraint. Think about it for a second:
- The supplement is SM only, but is listed in the shop for the GK/DA/BA/SW factions as well.
- The cards say SM/SW/BA/DA/GK and are listed in the shop for those factions as well.
- The advertising text for both is lists powers for all factions.

Yet rules for SW/GK/DA/BA are missing.
- If SW/GK/DA/B were supposed to get the goodies when the AoD rules were written, there is a faction mistake in that SW/GK/DA/BA don't have permission or mention at all in the book.
- If SW/GK/DA/B were supposed to get the goodies in their own supplement, there is a faction mistake in listing the AoD book for the special marine factions.

So marketing hand-waving "no mistake, we meant that" isn't convincing.

From a honesty point of view, I'd prefer if they made a step back and said "oops, our fault, it was supposed to be SM only." but don't think that likely since that'd be admitting to misleading advertising and getting requests for returns started. I don't think there will be another supplement for BA/DA/SW/GK for this, and expect that they'll change the AoD-RAW with a FAQ or Errata that lines those up. Which is likely to run a bit longer than the SM rule, since the four factions are not all as homogenous as the SM with psyker availability. For such a fix to be needed, there needs to be a faction mistake though, either in the rules or in the cards, since they say different things ;-]

From a game balance (hope dies last) point of view, the last thing we need is more "free, bonus, have this one too" love for the blue team. SW and DA are already jaw-droppingly powerful. SM not far behind, no idea about GK. With the various supplements and campaign books, goddies have been raining on the blue team. Often very powerful or ridiculous in combination with "free" or "cheap" pointswise. It's basically every time I play a buddy who brings a knight exalted court or space wolves that he has some new, OP and undercosted toy. In that mindset, where every month brings a buff for your faction or at least your battle-brothers, it does not really surprise me that people play fast and lose with rules, got used to being handsomly blessed and are shocked when some second-class customer disagrees with them being entitled to use the latest delivery for their battle-brothers.