koooaei wrote: I think kanz are fine. A squad of 6 is quite 240 base and you can throw them in the enemy face with a tellyportas and wrekkin speed now. They also have a smaller base than dreads
They actually both come on the same 60mm base, so they do have a significantly larger footprint if you are tellyporting them down.
Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.
Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.
Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.
Also, rezmekkas redder paint says you "can" take it on a vehicle but most other relics, like Da fixer upperz, states it can "only" be taken by a big mek or mek.
Does that mean you can use rezmekkas redder paint on a non vehicle like a squigosaur beastboss from evil sunz?
Beardedragon wrote: Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.
Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.
Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.
I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.
Beardedragon wrote: Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.
Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.
Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.
I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.
Beardedragon wrote: Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.
Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.
Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.
I believe you can only take the evil sunz one or the badskullz banna from freebooterz that is the 6" aura of turning off enemy obsec. Otherwise, yes, I think you're right that he can't take anything else.
oh yea also the freebootas one.
Yikes. thats unfortunate.
Yeahhhhhh. Fortunately, he by himself isn't terrible (he's certainly improved over his 8th ed incarnation) but it does suck that he lacks customization compared to guys like the Boss on Squigosaur. Was hoping that he could at least swap out his snagga klaw for a relic.
Beardedragon wrote: Something very disturbing i just saw is that, unless you go evil sunz and your deffkilla wartrike is your warlord, you can take literally NO relics for him.
Theres only one vehicle relic and that sits in evil sunz.
Please someone tell me i have missed something important here.
Also, rezmekkas redder paint says you "can" take it on a vehicle but most other relics, like Da fixer upperz, states it can "only" be taken by a big mek or mek.
Does that mean you can use rezmekkas redder paint on a non vehicle like a squigosaur beastboss from evil sunz?
You can also give him the Badskull Banner in Freebootas, which is honestly the only subfaction I've been using him in anyway.
IMO, if you're going Evil Sunz, the only way to get actual good mileage out of their trait is to embrace the standard Waagh, so Warboss on Warbike is one hundo percent the way to go. the extra 2" to 3" move turn 1 enables the sunz to employ a turn 1 tempo waagh strategy that's basically inaccessible with anyone else.
You can try to use Redder Paint+Faster than Yous with the speedboss to employ a hybrid model where you have a few turn 1 tempo assault units like kommandos and trukk boyz and you use Faster than Yous to sling a largeish unit of stormboyz, then you dedicate most of the list to dakka weaponry and fully enable the speedwaagh...
but honestly i'm not too fussed about the lack of vehicle relics because of the generally limited scope of the deffkilla. If you're bringing a deffkilla you're constructing the list around him, on purpose to be a dedicated shooty list focused around dakka weaponry.
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.
My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.
in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.
Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.
Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.
Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)
Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
Seems decently solid, though you'll want to get a warboss in the mix asap to actually get waaagh benefits. For now I'd say relic+trait up the painboy with the killa klaw.
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
...
Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.
Obsec on Kommandos, Meganobz and Stormboyz is potentially really interesting and could cause opponents some real issues, and the single re-roll is still okay.
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
...
Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry.
Obsec on Kommandos, Meganobz and Stormboyz is potentially really interesting and could cause opponents some real issues, and the single re-roll is still okay.
I feel like Deffskullz lends itself very well to a buggy oriented list, and KMB dreads. Then as you said, you fill in some of the gaps with min-squad obsec troops to help grab objectives while your buggies try and shoot/block off the enemy from getting them back.
The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.
Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.
They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...
There are a number of armies that deal a lot of mw. So, other than a free re-roll, which is great for small units - which we do seem to heavily lean towards to - 5+++ va mortal wounds is in no way useless. It can be better than 6++ vs some armies. Also, 1ksons and gk are coming out soon, so...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Freebootas are an obvious pick for a shooty list in 1500+ pt games. Maybe even 1k. But if you play lower pt games, it's not so obvious any more. If you want shooty and extra mw protection on small squads, ds is still a way to go.
Also, i'm eying blood axes in a buggy heavy list. Yeah, freebootas give you unparralleled shootingness but you don't shoot as well if you are locked in cc turn 1, which quite a number of enemies can perform nowadays.
So, just in case it could be nice to have a bunch of buggies or bikes just to screen yourself t1 or 2. Why not make them blood axes to fall back and shoot afterwards.. .
Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.
Are Warbikes making a comeback? I got rid of my old Gorkamorka warbikes a while ago since they never survived a move in one piece and have been thinking about doing some Nob Warbikers in the future.
oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.
Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.
Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.
Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?
Jidmah wrote: The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.
Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.
Blood Axes for sure are better. You can often get that cover save, and being untaggable (or able to fall back and charge for another attempt at MW) is not a bad thing. A lot of combat units are relying on lower str, multi damage attacks to get through vehicles, so ramshackle is relevant for when they are getting tagged.
That being said, deathskulls is definitely still just fine. I'd probably save my slots there for stuff like stormboyz though for more mobile obsec, as that I think is the special sauce Deathskulls offers as an army now and it's still really relevant.
Beardedragon wrote: oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.
Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.
Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.
Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?
The entire model as long as they have the SQUIG keyword. Which the two sleds are missing. So just the squig riders, the nob, the beastboss and the named character.
Jidmah wrote: The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.
Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.
Freebootas to me are a better buggy army than deffskullz. I'd rather have the huge boost of everyone being +1 to hit than one single re-roll. Though I suppose it depends on buggy type - as you said shokkjumps are significantly better with DS.
I'm also thinking of 2*3 screening killa kans. Not the most powerful unit but can be quite nice. Needs testingmmaybe just more buggies are better - who knows.
Jidmah wrote: The 5+++ also isn't completely worthless as we have quite a few models dealing damage to themselves.
Right now, I'm not sure if any of the clans are better for buggies than deffskulls. The only reason for me to run something else is that I think blood axes are quite interesting and large parts of my army are painted in their color.
Freebootas to me are a better buggy army than deffskullz. I'd rather have the huge boost of everyone being +1 to hit than one single re-roll. Though I suppose it depends on buggy type - as you said shokkjumps are significantly better with DS.
I feel like Freebootas just have an issue with diminishing returns over the course of a game, you can't always guarantee a unit being wiped to get that +1 to hit and often times it means a significant portion of your army is going without that +1 to hit until you manage to trigger it, which at that point, having guaranteed rerolls would have made a potentially bigger difference. Don't get me wrong, you can definitely skew your list to maximize that kind of killiness to proc the +1 to hit but I feel like its very enemy army dependent and how MSU reliant they are.
+1 to hit is just so tasty vs -1 to hit armies with not so durable stuff like de. Proc +1 with your mek gunz or units with innate +1 like squig buggies or wing missiles or stuff like that and than you start shooting even better to proc yet another +1 and get an army of bs 4 orks
Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.
Are Warbikes making a comeback? I got rid of my old Gorkamorka warbikes a while ago since they never survived a move in one piece and have been thinking about doing some Nob Warbikers in the future.
IMO warbikes are best they've ever been.
Theyre basically the posterboy unit for a speedwaagh for anti-chaff infantry, and theyre reliant on almost nothing to do their stuff. If you want to run a speedwaaagh list I think you want:
-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ -something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)
So it'd be something like:
Evil Sunz Patrol
-Deffkilla wartrike for SPEEDBOSS with Fasta than Yous/Redder Paint
-1x Trukk Boyz squad
-1 big unit of Deffcoptas (aiming to make use of the shoot and scoot stratagem)
-BDSW
-Dakkajet
Evil Sunz Outrider
-Warboss on Warbike, Killa Klaw+combat trait maybe Roadkilla cause its funny)
-1 unit of stormboyz to get slung in with Fasta than Yous
-min biker squads, BDSWs, Kustom Boosta-blastas, etc.
tulun wrote: Blood Axes for sure are better. You can often get that cover save,
Sorry, but no. The only way to treat this part of the culture is to assume it doesn't exist and measure 18" before your opponent shoots something that doesn't just ignore all your armor anyways to see if you are lucky enough to get +1. Light cover has made it even less likely to matter.
and being untaggable (or able to fall back and charge for another attempt at MW) is not a bad thing.
Another nope. You can fall back and shoot OR charge, not both. If you just stay in combat you can fight and shoot, for most buggies this is superior to falling back and shooting. It is also worth mentioning that tagging buggies usually involves charging them, and they can fire a pretty mean overwatch.
The trait is exactly the same as in the last codex and I gave it way too many chances before eventually switching to deffskulls. It's 100% worthless for a buggy army. The only difference to 8th are a pretty decent warlord trait, stratagem and relic - being able to reserve a bunch of buggies to fit more on the table than you normally could is definitely worth a look, and it can even reserve a naut or a plane that you can deploy out front as bait. An extra 2-3 CP can also make a huge difference during the later turns.
That being said, deathskulls is definitely still just fine. I'd probably save my slots there for stuff like stormboyz though for more mobile obsec, as that I think is the special sauce Deathskulls offers as an army now and it's still really relevant.
I'm probably going with warbikers first since they are dead 'ard and super fast. You can probably pull off the shenanigans I did with the vigilus detachment without any stratagem help now, and if you fan them out properly they can give a bunch of buggies -1 to hit at once. Who needs a KFF anyways?
Also, obsec MANz missile.
Deffskulls stormboyz are interesting though - especially since you can also use the 5+++ against them tripping over their rokkit packs.
-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ -something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)
Am I reading that right? 6 Dakkajets? Ho boy.
I normally play Bloodaxes but that setup does sound pretty fun. I'll have to get some warbikers in the future. How is the Boomdakka Snazzwagon? I picked up the Shokkjump Dragsta since I loved the model and I've been considering getting another buggy in the future.
Beardedragon wrote: oh yea that reminds me, i have a question i cant seem to find the answer to.
Snakebites detatchment rules states you get +1 to wound for squig models if they charge or make a heroic intervention.
Does that mean that that every time you charge, and attack with anything thats a squig, like warboss' attack squig attacks, kill rigs savage hooves and horns attacks, and the squig hogs Squighog Jaws attacks, among many, gets +1 to wound when those specifically attack? So not their riders just the squigs themselves.
Or is it the entire model that gets +1 to wound as long as they have the "Squig" keyword?
The entire model as long as they have the SQUIG keyword. Which the two sleds are missing. So just the squig riders, the nob, the beastboss and the named character.
hm. thanks. that is interesting. +1 to wound is pretty good to have. Any stratagems giving you +1 to wound are kind of redundant on those units then i would assume? since they dont stack. But you save the CP then so its great.
the_scotsman wrote: IMO, if you're going Evil Sunz, the only way to get actual good mileage out of their trait is to embrace the standard Waagh, so Warboss on Warbike is one hundo percent the way to go. the extra 2" to 3" move turn 1 enables the sunz to employ a turn 1 tempo waagh strategy that's basically inaccessible with anyone else.
I'm not gonna count on the Warboss keyword surviving errata (which I assume is coming when the "proper" codex lands. Obviously you can play around with it in the meantime, but I don't see it being a long-term feature for the datasheet.
koooaei wrote: Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.
Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.
Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.
Boosta-blasta and Bikers do compare pretty closely in terms of durability. 75 points of bikers for 9 T5 4+ wounds, with -1 to hit, vs. 80 points for 8 T6 4+ wounds with Ramshackle. So the variables are +/-1 point of Toughness, +/-1 Wound, and Ramshackle vs. -1 to hit against shooting. Shooting-wise they definitely perform very differently of course.
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.
My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.
in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.
Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.
Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.
Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)
Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry..
Oy, how about Blood Axes or where they so sneaky they slipped your mind
koooaei wrote: Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.
Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.
Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.
Bikers do work nice in a list with thrakka, though, as they benefit from both waaaghs.
Bikers have the numbers to lock units in combat and outnumber opponents on objectives. They now also have the attacks to fight chaff off an objective. A buggy has almost no chance of flipping a objective, but warbikers can easily take one from something like a unit of blightlords, guardsmen or enemy kommadoz.
koooaei wrote: Warbikers do seem good but they still pale in comparison to what buggies bring to the table.
Well I think you bring both because they will fulfill different roles.
Boosta blasta does kinda the same. And is quite tankier. Worse in mellee but bikers aren:'t amazing either.
Bikers do work nice in a list with thrakka, though, as they benefit from both waaaghs.
Bikers have the numbers to lock units in combat and outnumber opponents on objectives. They now also have the attacks to fight chaff off an objective. A buggy has almost no chance of flipping a objective, but warbikers can easily take one from something like a unit of blightlords, guardsmen or enemy kommadoz.
Yeah I think Bikers will be there to shove small units off objectives and be tough to remove in return. Buggies are really for fire support, but can do decent melee if they need to.
Bikers' performance quickly degeades the more they loose. 1 wound blasta is still putting the same hurt - even shooting in mellee. As for out-scoring something, perhaps numbers are better here. My point was not about bikers being bad, but about them being not mandatory in a buggy list. Also, while 3 bikers have their pros and cons and compete against a buggy, 6 bikers are starting to get into morale and footprint issues vs 2 buggies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The good part is that buggirs are so cheap (point-wise) and good, you can put 3 bikers and a buggy on a flank and have a more versatile force.
Dendarien wrote: Yeah I think Bikers will be there to shove small units off objectives and be tough to remove in return. Buggies are really for fire support, but can do decent melee if they need to.
The main reason I want bikers in my buggy list is this stratagem:
Spoiler:
With the oval bases biker units tend to have huge foot prints, but because they are faster than buggies and can fit in places where buggies cannot, they can easily cover a large area. With some careful positioning you can basically have all your buggies and koptas gain -1 to hit in your first turn. IMO this is superior to burning through a KFF in every way, and if you feel like it you can even do both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: Bikers' performance quickly degeades the more they loose. 1 wound blasta is still putting the same hurt - even shooting in mellee. As for out-scoring something, perhaps numbers are better here. My point was not about bikers being bad, but about them being not mandatory in a buggy list. Also, while 3 bikers have their pros and cons and compete against a buggy, 6 bikers are starting to get into morale and footprint issues vs 2 buggies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The good part is that buggirs are so cheap (point-wise) and good, you can put 3 bikers and a buggy on a flank and have a more versatile force.
I'm talking about running a full unit of 9, and their job is a completely different one from what buggies do. There also is the issue that units of multiple buggies might very well be dead for most of them, so bringing more buggies isn't always an option.
Seems decently solid, though you'll want to get a warboss in the mix asap to actually get waaagh benefits. For now I'd say relic+trait up the painboy with the killa klaw.
DKK on the painboi is da killa klaw. trait being propa killy. The problem with the warboss is the awkward 90 points without any gear. if I give him a klaw or squig he prevents me from getting the 5 stormboys.
Having no waaagh is significant though, but stormboys are already the cheapest fast attack option. any suggestions?
yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only. That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.
Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?
They do - I think Jidmah wanted to use the bikers to buff up the buggies.
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.
They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.
Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?
They do - I think Jidmah wanted to use the bikers to buff up the buggies.
You could use it on a wartrike.
Yeah it's a great strat.
Wartrike is the ideal target tbh as you said, as it has look out sir as well.
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.
-Warbikers and 6x supa-shoota dakkajets for anti-chaff
-BDSW for anti-MEQ -something with Rokkits for anti-tank (doesn't get the dakka bonus, but bumping from AP-2 to AP-3 is almost always highly effective)
Am I reading that right? 6 Dakkajets? Ho boy.
I normally play Bloodaxes but that setup does sound pretty fun. I'll have to get some warbikers in the future. How is the Boomdakka Snazzwagon? I picked up the Shokkjump Dragsta since I loved the model and I've been considering getting another buggy in the future.
haha no, 1 dakkajet with 6 supa-shootas, sorry.
BDSW competes with the squigbuggy directly (same exact profile S5 AP-2 D2) but is a little bit more firepower I believe (definitely more shots but most of the shots from the rukkatrukk are +1 to hit) and is -1 to hit base while the rukkatrukk is indirect fire.
I think they work out to fairly comparable but you squeeze a little more out of the BDSW in a speedwaaagh freeboota list because it's not already at +1 so it benefits from Freebootas.
I like pairing warbikes, BDSW and Dakkajets together because it unifies me into a T5-T6 4+ -1 to hit profile and the only thing that presents a 'soft' target is the trukks, which, please shoot my trukks lol.
tulun wrote: Cloud of Smoke requires you to target a vehicle Jidmah.
Bikers can't use that strat.
Eh. Koptas it is then.
Yeah, koptas make the best unit to center smoke cloud on. Basically if you're gonna make use of Smoke Cloud, take 3x or 6x deffcoptas and use it to guard all your non-BDSW buggies.
And the bonus is, the stratagem doesn't even delete the unit that used it from the game after 1 turn! WOW! VALUETOWN!!!!!!!!!!!
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Vineheart01 wrote: yeah sadly that doesnt work on bikers. Buggies or koptas only.
That is a crazy powerful stratagem though...-1 to hit in an AREA....from the wording if they kill the target unit of that strat it'd go away but its still pretty good.
Dont warbikers have -1 to hit by default now?
TBF it would be less value on bikers as they already have -1 to hit. Minor inconvenience, but, what can you do - just position the buggies that need to protect with 1 in the center.
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.
I love the models too :(
I will probably still try and run them in mek lists just to see if I stumble upon something they might be useful for...
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.
They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
They have more wounds for the points and are also equipped with BS4+ ranged weaponry - remember you're comparing to a dread with no guns.
End of the day they do different stuff, kanz and dreads. Kanz you're gonna use as a 240-330pt bomb unit (personally I think upgrading at least *some* to have rokkits makes good sense) and dreads you're going to use to take heat off of other turn 2 tempo standard waaagh units - "if you shoot that bonebreaka/squighog boyz/trukk full of mean stuff the 7A pure melee dread is gonna crash"
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
Honestly...I just do not know. Grot units have been trash tier with a few exceptions since our 7th edition codex was written. Those exceptions are Mek gunz in general and using grots to eat bullets specifically. Other than maybe using them to hold a backfield objective or screen units...they don't see hte battle field. Killakanz in particular have been just god awful for so long its ridiculous. I love the little models as well! I have like 15 of them for feths sake.
We didn't have that many grot units and from what we had:
- Mek gunz were amazing - still ok in solo units or with makari
- Makari - was just a fluffy character and now can be used to run mek gun batteries, so, ok in this role. He can also grot shield but it's gona be fixed.
- Killa kanz were very underwhilming but are kinda ok now with buffs paired with point reduction.
- Grots were quite underwhelming on paper but I used to run 10 of them in trucks with good results. At first it was a know-how for protecting deep striking meganobz from overwatch (dark angel plasma with banner and Azrael) and this "shoot enemy reserves" Strategem. But than I quickly found out that a cheap scoring unit with small models in a trukk is great on it's own. And you're likely taking an infantry squad anywayz. With t3 they're now a bit more durable. Run more often but it's much less important for a min squad than t3. Why not run boyz? Well, 40 extra pts now. I don't know, maybe shootas are still ok but they kinda do the same for more points,are harder to hind behind a fence and don't trigger the "I'm gona shoot a lazcannon at a grot...what have I done wrong in this game?!" from your opponent.
And yeah, sometimes the enemy HAS to shoot his lazcannons and meltas at grots. This thing alone is able to justify taking grots for me.
1135 points, 865 remaining for your third detachment of whatever. Stay mono Snakebites with another Patrol/Batallion with another tricked out Beastboss on Squig + third Trukkboyz + 2x 10 Grots + Kill Rig + some MSU Kommandoz/Stormboyz?
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.
i thought the same, that if you bring squighogs you should go snake bites, but i decided to do some math hamming.
i had a full squad of 6 squig boys charge and attack shining spears (don't ask me why i chose a unit at random)
i only used their basic melee profile of 3 attacks with the stika weapon +1s -2ap 2d
Goffs did 18 attacks - 15 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
Snakebites did 18 attacks - 12 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
in the end there wasn't much difference goffs get more hits but snake bites get more wounds from less hits,
So for me, squig boys can be either goffs or snakebites, clan kulture of an army with squigboys in the list will be determined by other units/stratagems/relics/warlordtraits
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
Bad Moonz: Probably the most narrow of the clans the main problem it has is very little way to use 'every part of the buffalo.' The trait is best on Tankbustas and Flash Gits where the bump to 30" range means they will be much more likely to not have to move turn 1 so they can just kick it and start blasting, and the fact that they have inbuilt +1 to hit makes those units bad at being Freebootas, but the strat wants Dakka weaponry and the warlord trait wants a tough fighty boss and the relic wants...a waagh banner nob? The fact that you can't take Gobshot's on a megaboss, the obvious pick for the warlord trait is intensely frustrating.
My best pick: you want to pair a limited-scope Bad Moonz patrol with a Sunz or Goffs anti-infantry list.
in general, a patrol with a single squad of trukk boyz and a selfish warboss of some description , a weirdboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik is a great way to buy in to a couple slots of some clan you want for minimum of inefficient investment. Trukk Boyz are (IMO) our best generic use of a troop slot, and a weirdboy or grotsnik don't particularly care about clan kultur and can just roll with the rest of your list, be it goffs or sunz or whatever.
Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.
Evil Sunz: Either a turn 1 tempo assault Standard Waaagh list (Stormboyz/Kommandos/Biker Warboss with some Deffcoptas or allied bad moonz for anti-tank fire support) or a turn 1 tempo hybrid shooty/melee list utilizing trukk boyz and Fasta than Yous with lots of warbikes and buggies with dakka weaponry.
Freebootas: good pick for a mono-culture shooty list with a solid objective game. Lean in heavily on dakka weaponry to make maximum use of the speedwaagh and bring some grot units armed with anti-tank weaponry to kick off Competitive Streak like mek gunz and killa kanz (and presumably grot tanks once they get updated weapon profiles)
Deffskullz: I do not know. Literally no ideas. I'm sorry..
Oy, how about Blood Axes or where they so sneaky they slipped your mind
Blood Axes can get two Warboss-equivalent HQ models into one detachment, which is very nice IMO, and have two ways to get multiple units *of any size* into strategic reserves, through I've got a Plan Ladz and Dead Sneaky. If big bricks of boyz are viable for any army I'd say they're viable in blood axes just off the back of I've got a Plan Ladz. Dead Sneaky is a little redundant but does allow for Action shenanigans.
I'd play blood axes as a big huge wide board control list. heck, maybe even make the boyz blocks shoota boyz, wild hot take there but I think it gets rid of some of the inherent unreliability of having to make the charge (main purpose of the unit is just to take up lots of space midboard anyway).
Basically just take as many kommandos as you think you can reliably get into some kind of cover midboard during deployment, Snikrot to make them more threatening, a boss of some description to pop waagh (probably a foot boss as he might as well be one of the Ive Got A Plan Ladz Ladz or possibly a squigosaur boss just so you have the option of a T1 waagh if you absolutely need it) and then whatever your IGAPL Ladz are going to be.
You're going to have a scoring-heavy, bodies-heavy, objective-focused list so I would deprioritize anti-heavy firepower personally, just a couple of the heavy melee weapons for each kommando squad, maybe PK/Breacha Ram/Distraction Grot/Bomb Squig so you can hurt heavy targets with kommandos if you get into them, but priority should be to clear out any other infantry that your opponent could use to score.
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
Goffs: Generically the best pick for any non-squighog based turn 2 tempo hard hitting melee list. Whether you want walkers or boyz or nobz or manz, goffs is the biggest and strongest.
i thought the same, that if you bring squighogs you should go snake bites, but i decided to do some math hamming.
i had a full squad of 6 squig boys charge and attack shining spears (don't ask me why i chose a unit at random)
i only used their basic melee profile of 3 attacks with the stika weapon +1s -2ap 2d
Goffs did 18 attacks - 15 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
Snakebites did 18 attacks - 12 expected hits - 10 expected wounds - save cut it to 6.67 - 13.33 damage - 6.67 models killed
in the end there wasn't much difference goffs get more hits but snake bites get more wounds from less hits,
So for me, squig boys can be either goffs or snakebites, clan kulture of an army with squigboys in the list will be determined by other units/stratagems/relics/warlordtraits
Yeah, offensively theyre exactly the same. Defensively you get the Snakebites trait for free if you go snakebites.
koooaei wrote: I think kanz are fine. A squad of 6 is quite 240 base and you can throw them in the enemy face with a tellyportas and wrekkin speed now. They also have a smaller base than dreads
I like a unit of 5... gets around Blast, costs just 200 points, and thanks to the LD buff, they're not as likely t head for the hills when a single Kan drops. That's a clanky wall of metal for, what, 8 pts a wound? And which mitigates Autocanon/Heavy Bolter damage to just 1 damage pings while, at the same time, aren't so scary to draw true anti-tank fire? not bad! Units of 3 are also fantastic at being cheap-ish, are borderline morale-proof then, and still scary. They're comparable to MegaNobz, really, with 1 worse save vs more wounds. I'm not HYPE about them like, say, Bikers, but I can see them being used just fine now.
They're not going to survive an engagement with, you know, *Terminators*, but short of that, they'll get work done, I think!
(Edit)
A trio with basic BigShootas is 120, vs a unit of Intercessors for 100, 115 with a melee boosting weapon. I think that's Advantage: Orks, personally.
So i've been brainstorming a blood axes list with a Stompa, and ran across a snag with I've got a Plan Ladz. I wanted to use it to put a stompa, bonebreaka, and 3 deff dreads into reserves. However, the way I'm reading this, it appears as though the deff dreads would split once I deploy them the first time so I'd only be able to put 1 of them into reserves. Am I reading this correctly?
Deff dreads datasheet: "After this unit is set up on the battle field for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit."
Beardedragon wrote:
worth noting with killa kanz though even with ramming speed, they dont have ere' we go. so you need to pay CP to reroll your 3 die if you fail your charge.
How does that compare to having 'ere we go? How often would that CP be needed? Also, since the new strats are kinda meh I think it might still be worth to use that CP for the 'ere we go reroll evne if it costs 1CP. You will be rolling 6 dice in that case for a 9" charge. I think thats worth, but I havent done any math or anything, its what my gut tells me.
Here is a list with models I already have. What do you think?
I had 2 incursion sized games with kanz since the leaks and both games they absolutely rocked. I ran 3 with scorchas and had them outflanked. Ramshackle is outright vicious vs sanguinary guard with swords/axes.
They actually hit almost as much as a pure melee dread and have their shooting too. They do however miss out on culture bonuses. klaws are the same in profile. kanz also loose some efficiency when droped bellow 3 models and have the issue of moral. Their damage ceiling is higher than that of the dread which seems orky...
That is good to know, however I forgot that youre paying the initial CP for that high %. I think its still worth it since now I dont have to worry about saving 3cp on green tide.
Kanz being weaker and more expensive than dreads is sad... no clan trait is just insult to injury. If you pretend to be GW for one sec, what would you think they were trying to do with kans?
I mean I got hyped for charging kanz but a dread seems to do the same job with less points...
They have more wounds for the points and are also equipped with BS4+ ranged weaponry - remember you're comparing to a dread with no guns.
End of the day they do different stuff, kanz and dreads. Kanz you're gonna use as a 240-330pt bomb unit (personally I think upgrading at least *some* to have rokkits makes good sense) and dreads you're going to use to take heat off of other turn 2 tempo standard waaagh units - "if you shoot that bonebreaka/squighog boyz/trukk full of mean stuff the 7A pure melee dread is gonna crash"
Ah okay I knew kanz were supposed to fill some niche. Good. Now I know what to do with them... Will have a 3rd list soon that focuses on walkers.
Dendarien wrote: What's the deal with the squigbuggy being "no longer available online"? Website error, or getting repackaged?
Various streamers marinesplaining that 5x buggies will break the meta in half probably got everyone to clear out the stock.
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Dendarien wrote: What is everyone thinking for the best size for biker units? 4 or 5 seems good to avoid morale and footprint issues.
I don't think that 9 will have footprint issue and you can still reasonable arrest models with them - even the suicidal fallback stratagem doesn't get marines out of a bike circle. It's also not that trivial to make them fail morale in the first place and if someone uses stratagems or wargear to do so, you can still just auto-pass.
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BDBurrow wrote: So i've been brainstorming a blood axes list with a Stompa, and ran across a snag with I've got a Plan Ladz. I wanted to use it to put a stompa, bonebreaka, and 3 deff dreads into reserves. However, the way I'm reading this, it appears as though the deff dreads would split once I deploy them the first time so I'd only be able to put 1 of them into reserves. Am I reading this correctly?
Deff dreads datasheet: "After this unit is set up on the battle field for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit."
Sounds right, yeah. Maybe you can replace your dreads with kanz or scrapjets for your plan?
BDSW competes with the squigbuggy directly (same exact profile S5 AP-2 D2) but is a little bit more firepower I believe (definitely more shots but most of the shots from the rukkatrukk are +1 to hit) and is -1 to hit base while the rukkatrukk is indirect fire.
I think they work out to fairly comparable but you squeeze a little more out of the BDSW in a speedwaaagh freeboota list because it's not already at +1 so it benefits from Freebootas.
I like pairing warbikes, BDSW and Dakkajets together because it unifies me into a T5-T6 4+ -1 to hit profile and the only thing that presents a 'soft' target is the trukks, which, please shoot my trukks lol.
Oh that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the tip! I'll keep an eye out for the BDSW, Buggies were often out of stock at my last store. Can't wait for the Codex to release since I'm really looking forward to trying out some Mechanized lists with Evil Sunz and Blood Axes.
Yes.
And also, seems that you can pop the cloud of smoke on a Trike. Which is kinda fluffy since as a boss, he's supposed to pop the highest amount of smoke orkily possible.
koooaei wrote: Yes.
And also, seems that you can pop the cloud of smoke on a Trike. Which is kinda fluffy since as a boss, he's supposed to pop the highest amount of smoke orkily possible.
Everything of this is +AP-1 in speedwaaagh. Wounding 6's goes +AP-2. Reaching +6"
Megatrakk Skrapjet 90p
3D3 rokkets F8 -2 at 30"
2xTwin big shoota 10/6 at 42", being one of them 4+ other 5+.
rokket missile
Perfect for trying lasschiken takedowns turn1 or some Raiders.
Kustom Boosta Blasta
42" 9/6 dakka F7 -2 D2 weapon
Perfect for screen in deployment zone shooting dakka, if someones dares to charges 4D6 fires will punish everything he see.
BoomDaka SnazzWagon
Just a lot of dakka at 42". TONS of dakka. Aiming for AdMech and Drukhari infrantery.
Rukkatruggs are instapick. But I think deffkilla wartrike + 9 warbikes can be helped with some buggy and 3x1 MekGunz.
Going this as bad moonz can be just wow when popping 6s at wounding. And the plus of reach will help.
the_scotsman wrote: I was thinking over the weekend on ways to use each clan, actually, and I think there's some good flexibility/ways to make use of each of them.
Snakebites: The most obvious, you want to spam squighogs and kill rigs, this is where you go. The durability boost is fairly minor, but offensively +1 to wound is generally going to outperform exploding 6s and +1S given that many of these units are mostly S5/S6, S6-S7 and S5-S6 is an awkward shift that doesn't really get you a ton of mileage.
the_scotsman I don't see the sguig keyword for the kill rig (nor the hunter rig) but that maybe a "french codex" issue. Who has the english version and can check ?
On the discussion of kanz and kopters, I read 'one victory point for each vehicule model' for the bring it down secondary...
So if I want to bring my 2*4 kanz with a Waagh banner with the Big Gob warlord trait, that mean I just ase them auto concede 8 victory points ? I mean they are tough for 40 each, but at some point, they are going down (I want to use them as a counter charge unit to support my 3*2 bad moon scrapjets).
Desn't seem fair to me. Vehicules with less than 6 wounds should be giving 0,5 VP, not 1...
Secondaries as a whole are pretty crap, i'd rather the system AoS3 has now (each turn you pick 1 of the 8 or so things in a list, cant pick the same one twice and theyre generally goals you wanna achieve this turn like boot someone off that objectve)
Every army except marines seem to auto-concede max points for at least 1 secondary.
the_scotsman wrote: Blood Axes can get two Warboss-equivalent HQ models into one detachment, which is very nice IMO, and have two ways to get multiple units *of any size* into strategic reserves, through I've got a Plan Ladz and Dead Sneaky. If big bricks of boyz are viable for any army I'd say they're viable in blood axes just off the back of I've got a Plan Ladz. Dead Sneaky is a little redundant but does allow for Action shenanigans.
I'd play blood axes as a big huge wide board control list. heck, maybe even make the boyz blocks shoota boyz, wild hot take there but I think it gets rid of some of the inherent unreliability of having to make the charge (main purpose of the unit is just to take up lots of space midboard anyway).
Basically just take as many kommandos as you think you can reliably get into some kind of cover midboard during deployment, Snikrot to make them more threatening, a boss of some description to pop waagh (probably a foot boss as he might as well be one of the Ive Got A Plan Ladz Ladz or possibly a squigosaur boss just so you have the option of a T1 waagh if you absolutely need it) and then whatever your IGAPL Ladz are going to be.
You're going to have a scoring-heavy, bodies-heavy, objective-focused list so I would deprioritize anti-heavy firepower personally, just a couple of the heavy melee weapons for each kommando squad, maybe PK/Breacha Ram/Distraction Grot/Bomb Squig so you can hurt heavy targets with kommandos if you get into them, but priority should be to clear out any other infantry that your opponent could use to score.
I like this reasoning and it´s in the general domain of what I am strategizing. I´ve played Orks in 8th as up to midfield board control. The new book still allows this and maybe even rewards it even more.
On the big Boy block up board I usually go half and half. Reason being I want some deterrent to the opponent charging the blob (Sluggaz) and if they don´t there´s still enough shots to at least threaten infiltrators and weakened infantry (Shootaz). With the Tankbusta strat this unit got a real nice tool on top of the durability boost (T5) plus BAs ability with Dakka guns is a little perk, thus I continue to believe in the strategy.
Goonhammer also raved about the Kommando screen and I think you are spot on. Snikrot wasn´t really on my radar there, but it´s a very good point as the aim is to clear away objective scorers aka infantry.
As for hitting units I´m on Jidmahs plan of Speedfreaks and Cloud of Smoke. Deffkilla, Red Rolla Bonebreaka, Warbikers and Buggies move up and position to get smoke cover (well BB wish it got some use but anyway...), pop Speedwaagh!, Dakka their infantry. Blob follows up and control the center. Opponent counter attacks and Manz get off Bonebreaka to start the grindfest.
For secondaries I prefer those that ignore the opponent; Green Tide, Warp Ritual/Psychic Interrogation and Octarius as this allows me to stay in my half of the table and concentrate my forces.
I must have missed something but what prevents us from giving the -1 to be wounded WLT to a Kill Rig ? Sorry it has probably been said again again, i just can't find anything :(
Secondaries as a whole are pretty crap, i'd rather the system AoS3 has now (each turn you pick 1 of the 8 or so things in a list, cant pick the same one twice and theyre generally goals you wanna achieve this turn like boot someone off that objectve)
Every army except marines seem to auto-concede max points for at least 1 secondary.
Yeah I agree 100%, I also hope they go down the aos route for secondaries
addnid wrote: I must have missed something but what prevents us from giving the -1 to be wounded WLT to a Kill Rig ? Sorry it has probably been said again again, i just can't find anything :(
Secondaries as a whole are pretty crap, i'd rather the system AoS3 has now (each turn you pick 1 of the 8 or so things in a list, cant pick the same one twice and theyre generally goals you wanna achieve this turn like boot someone off that objectve)
Every army except marines seem to auto-concede max points for at least 1 secondary.
Yeah I agree 100%, I also hope they go down the aos route for secondaries
Page 51 - you have to give a kill rig the Beast Gob WLT.
addnid wrote: I must have missed something but what prevents us from giving the -1 to be wounded WLT to a Kill Rig ? Sorry it has probably been said again again, i just can't find anything :(
Secondaries as a whole are pretty crap, i'd rather the system AoS3 has now (each turn you pick 1 of the 8 or so things in a list, cant pick the same one twice and theyre generally goals you wanna achieve this turn like boot someone off that objectve)
Every army except marines seem to auto-concede max points for at least 1 secondary.
Yeah I agree 100%, I also hope they go down the aos route for secondaries
Page 51 - you have to give a kill rig the Beast Gob WLT.
Thanks ! Like a named character then. It is a good/great unit no doubt, but I fail to see the "totally busted" part of the Kill Rig
Hey guys I'm kind of confused on something with the Kommandos. I'm looking at the Kommandos Data Sheet and I'm noticing it is saying for every 10 models you can get an upgrade. Does that mean I need to take x10 models in a squad in order for me to take a Bomb Squig? Or can I still take 1 in a squad of x5?
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm kind of confused on something with the Kommandos. I'm looking at the Kommandos Data Sheet and I'm noticing it is saying for every 10 models you can get an upgrade. Does that mean I need to take x10 models in a squad in order for me to take a Bomb Squig? Or can I still take 1 in a squad of x5?
3 Deff Dreads in Dread Mob appear to still count as a unit until set up on the battlefield. If in reserve via Tellyporta strategem, they wouldn't split until they are set up on the battlefield.
3 Deff Dreads with 4 Skorchas.
That's an average of 3.5*4*3 = 42 skorcha autohits for 315 points on arrival at 12".
That's an average of 13.86 or just under 14 wounds against MEQs.
Profile says you can replace both the big shootas and the Dread Klaws with Skorchas.
Ok Boys, coming out of nowhere to try and get ideas on this list.
Playing Raven Guard tomorrow and this is what I came up with. It is based around what I have painted and my prefered playstyle of "Random bull go!"
Spoiler:
Outrider Detachment - 9CP - 1999 pts
HQ: Ghazzy - Warlord - Brutal but Kunnin 300pts
HQ: Wierdboy - Fists and Warpath 70pts
Troops: Boyz x19 - Nob with BC 176pts
Troops: Boys x12 - Nob with BC 113pts
Elites: MANZ x5 2x killsaw 225ptd - Trukkboyz
FA: Stormboyz x15 165pts
FA: Warbikers x6 Nob with BC 155pts
FA: DeffKoptas x6 300pts
HS: Deff Dread with 4x dreadklaws - Kustom Job - stompy pistons (+3" move +1" advance) - in the telly porta (maybe) 100 pts
HS: Battlewagon - Deff rolla - kannon and lobba (had 10 pts to burn, willing to drop these if needed) 145pts
Flyer: DakkaJet with extra supa shoota 110pts
DT: Trukk 70 pts
DT: Trukk 70 pts
The idea is that 19 boyz and the weirdboy ride in the BW, manz in one trukk and the other boyz in the remaining trukk. Everything else launches in every direction as fast as possible with Ghazzy running up the middle looking big and scary (but also try to keep out of enemy shooting). Drop the dread in a jucy place (if I use teleporta) Call the Grand Waaagh turn 2 and and let the whole army lay into his units. hopefully by turn 3 as the waagh cools down he will be reeling on the backfoot and i can use what is remaining of my fast moving units to rush objectives and secondaries.
Every time I have played this player I have been able to keep him mostly to one corner of the board as he likes o back up and castle up with his SM characters.
This is just a first draft and based around what I have painted. But I do have a ton of other options if needed, I am willing to swap some things around.
3 Deff Dreads in Dread Mob appear to still count as a unit until set up on the battlefield. If in reserve via Tellyporta strategem, they wouldn't split until they are set up on the battlefield.
3 Deff Dreads with 4 Skorchas. That's an average of 3.5*4*3 = 42 skorcha autohits for 315 points on arrival at 12".
That's an average of 13.86 or just under 14 wounds against MEQs.
Profile says you can replace both the big shootas and the Dread Klaws with Skorchas.
Tell me why I shouldn't.
That popped up a few pages ago and imo its better to leave 1 klaw on them. Its 15pts LESS for the squad and you still have 4 deadly melee, each, while with 4 skorchas you have pathetic melee.
3 Deff Dreads in Dread Mob appear to still count as a unit until set up on the battlefield. If in reserve via Tellyporta strategem, they wouldn't split until they are set up on the battlefield.
3 Deff Dreads with 4 Skorchas.
That's an average of 3.5*4*3 = 42 skorcha autohits for 315 points on arrival at 12".
That's an average of 13.86 or just under 14 wounds against MEQs.
Profile says you can replace both the big shootas and the Dread Klaws with Skorchas.
Tell me why I shouldn't.
That popped up a few pages ago and imo its better to leave 1 klaw on them.
Its 15pts LESS for the squad and you still have 4 deadly melee, each, while with 4 skorchas you have pathetic melee.
Fair point. Anything wrong with the dreadporta otherwise?
Dendarien wrote: What is everyone thinking for the best size for biker units? 4 or 5 seems good to avoid morale and footprint issues.
LD 7. Always keep that in mind. If you lose 4 Bikers you are down to LD3 and have a 50/50 chance to fail morale. With that in mind I am considering 2 competing theories. 1: Min/Max. Assuming Nob bikers come back to us, run 3x3 Bikerz and 3x3 Nob Bikerz. and 2: FETH IT just run as many as you can field. I have 35 Warbikers so running 27 would be relatively easy for me to do and 27 T5 3W 4+ save models with -1 to hit seem relatively durable to me. To kill them with S4 bolters requires 36 Bolter shots, Against Heavy Bolters its a lot less but still a respectable 12 shots. So to kill 4 of them to get a 50/50 chance of morale failure is going to cost 144 Bolter shots or 48 Heavy Bolter shots.
TedNugent wrote: Do people worried about Grot shielding with Makari realize his 2++ only lasts until a failed save?
No, because he can' t be targeted due Look out Sir. Which makes your covered unit untargetable. Obvious bug in in the rules. This will be FAQed - excluding characters I guess - so no reason to play it or even think about it.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm kind of confused on something with the Kommandos. I'm looking at the Kommandos Data Sheet and I'm noticing it is saying for every 10 models you can get an upgrade. Does that mean I need to take x10 models in a squad in order for me to take a Bomb Squig? Or can I still take 1 in a squad of x5?
You need to take 10 for any upgrades.
Kinda weird/funny/annoying that only commandos got caught by GWs new/irritating unit option layout. Nobz still can take pretty much whatever they want.
3 Deff Dreads in Dread Mob appear to still count as a unit until set up on the battlefield. If in reserve via Tellyporta strategem, they wouldn't split until they are set up on the battlefield.
3 Deff Dreads with 4 Skorchas.
That's an average of 3.5*4*3 = 42 skorcha autohits for 315 points on arrival at 12".
That's an average of 13.86 or just under 14 wounds against MEQs.
Profile says you can replace both the big shootas and the Dread Klaws with Skorchas.
Tell me why I shouldn't.
That popped up a few pages ago and imo its better to leave 1 klaw on them.
Its 15pts LESS for the squad and you still have 4 deadly melee, each, while with 4 skorchas you have pathetic melee.
Fair point. Anything wrong with the dreadporta otherwise?
The only problem is t2 is too late in most games. I've played 10 deep striking meganobz quite a lot and more often than not they just stay in reserves all game cause it either ends t2 or there is no good place for deep striking them or no good targets. I'd have more mileage simply walking the squad across the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bikers do seem quite shooty. Freeboota bikers kill a marine each when under the effect of speed waagh and +1 to hit. Of course if you get into a 9" radius or pop more dakkat strat.
Dendarien wrote: What is everyone thinking for the best size for biker units? 4 or 5 seems good to avoid morale and footprint issues.
Personally, I'm looking at three groups of five. They're so good I *should* do bigger units, but, Blast is bad mmmkay and too big of a unit attracts too much firepower without having hidey-holes. Five's just the right size to cause chaos while being small enough to get away with it, I think.
There is an argument for 9 as you can hidethem, tellyport with a wierdboy, pop moar dakka, speedwaagh and dish 108 s5 ap1 shots. That might be bs4 if you're freebooter or deal extra hits if you're a bad moon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you can charge afterwards. Their mellee is nothing to write home about but they're still orks.
The only problem is t2 is too late in most games. I've played 10 deep striking meganobz quite a lot and more often than not they just stay in reserves all game cause it either ends t2 or there is no good place for deep striking them or no good targets. I'd have more mileage simply walking the squad across the board.
It's extremely hard to put meganobz into fight in turn 1 so deep striking turn 2 looks like their best way to be delivered. No good place for deepstriking them is a consequence of the huge footprint that 10x 40mm bases have, tellyport a unit of 5 instead. I basically only play them this way and they typically don't let me down. If you walk 10 meganobz they're gonna be obliterate by firepower as they trigger the blast bonus and now morale is a issue. Units of 5 or even 3 should do fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: There is an argument for 9 as you can hidethem, tellyport with a wierdboy, pop moar dakka, speedwaagh and dish 108 s5 ap1 shots. That might be bs4 if you're freebooter or deal extra hits if you're a bad moon.
Bikes are fast and tanky enough to rely on their -1 to hit, they move and shoot, eventually enhanced with more dakka. Anti tank/elite shots that are fired at them are shots that aren't fired to the vehicles. I'd put something else into tellyporta or da jump.
BDBurrow wrote: So i've been brainstorming a blood axes list with a Stompa, and ran across a snag with I've got a Plan Ladz. I wanted to use it to put a stompa, bonebreaka, and 3 deff dreads into reserves. However, the way I'm reading this, it appears as though the deff dreads would split once I deploy them the first time so I'd only be able to put 1 of them into reserves. Am I reading this correctly?
Deff dreads datasheet: "After this unit is set up on the battle field for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit."
yeees i believe so sadly. as you say, once they are deployed the first time, they are no longer a single unit. and they do need to be deployed first, before they are taken off the field. Try alternatively to use 6 Killa Kanz with rokkits instead. It might have the same shock and awe effect.
I have a question though about that blood axes ive got a plan ladz thing.
When you put something back in to strategic reserve for free, do they arrive at the edges or do they arrive as deepstrike? Because if strategic reserve is the one at the edges, then models that cant fully fit within 6 inches of the edge, MUST be deployed at the very back of your deployment zone. The stompa wouldnt get hit on the first turn sure, but he would arrive at the very back.
The only problem is t2 is too late in most games. I've played 10 deep striking meganobz quite a lot and more often than not they just stay in reserves all game cause it either ends t2 or there is no good place for deep striking them or no good targets. I'd have more mileage simply walking the squad across the board.
It's extremely hard to put meganobz into fight in turn 1 so deep striking turn 2 looks like their best way to be delivered. No good place for deepstriking them is a consequence of the huge footprint that 10x 40mm bases have, tellyport a unit of 5 instead. I basically only play them this way and they typically don't let me down. If you walk 10 meganobz they're gonna be obliterate by firepower as they trigger the blast bonus and now morale is a issue. Units of 5 or even 3 should do fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: There is an argument for 9 as you can hidethem, tellyport with a wierdboy, pop moar dakka, speedwaagh and dish 108 s5 ap1 shots. That might be bs4 if you're freebooter or deal extra hits if you're a bad moon.
Bikes are fast and tanky enough to rely on their -1 to hit, they move and shoot, eventually enhanced with more dakka. Anti tank/elite shots that are fired at them are shots that aren't fired to the vehicles. I'd put something else into tellyporta or da jump.
Deep striking manz used to be great in 8th but now, games are even faster and the enemy is rolling towards mid board too, so, by t2 you often do them further away from the enemy than they'd end up simply strolling through the field. And yes, 10 is not an ideal unit size for walking unless you plan on grot shielding them. I have faith in 3-4 many in trucks though. Be it freeboota rokkit many or trukkboyz (if it's gona be legal, cause currently they both have a wrong keyword and can't ride trukks).
As for bikers, if you're not hiding them t1 and loose the roll-off, they're dead. Cause if you're running 9,the opponent knows you're gona use some shenanigans to make them deadlier and it's easier for him to just kill a bunch and than force morale checks that will also inflict a couple more casualties. So, if you're running 9,better have a plan to protect them t1. Currently, tellyportin' them with a wierdboy for a 1st turn dakka gun barrage on a flank is a legit tactic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, about manz. I've stopped using large squads of them cause they don't really work vs armies that have mellee units that strike before them...so, basically all top-tier armies currently. De, dg, da...man, all the armies with D-s are top tier, it seems. Are we gona be dark orks or something?
pepi55 wrote: I just noticed that dread saws are no longer a thing on deff dreads..... do they now count as klaws or is it remodelling time?
count as klaws. The same for killa kanz drilla and saws also count as klaws. They even posted a picture with a killa kan with a drilla in the codex, but the title said: Killa kan with klaw.
pepi55 wrote: I just noticed that dread saws are no longer a thing on deff dreads..... do they now count as klaws or is it remodelling time?
This was only a thing for the 8th edition codex - the probably realized that it added little and just cause problems for people who build their dreads years ago and axed the whole idea. For half the bits you can't really tell whether it's a klaw or a saw anyways.
On the discussion of MANZ, correct me if i am wrong, but they can use claw and combi-skorcha weapon at same time?
They also got a cost reduction if am right to 40 since claw is free? Is this right?
Also their CORE keyword so they can be Da Jump from weird boy?
So you could possibly table them in same way as dreads? Jump them and telly in scrapjets for support?
On the discussion of MANZ, correct me if i am wrong, but they can use claw and combi-skorcha weapon at same time?
They also got a cost reduction if am right to 40 since claw is free? Is this right?
Also their CORE keyword so they can be Da Jump from weird boy?
1) Correct, you get a klaw and a kombi weapon or kustom shoota
2) 35 with kustom shoota/klaw, 40 with kombi-rokkit and 45 with skorcha
3) Correct.
So you could possibly table them in same way as dreads? Jump them and telly in scrapjets for support?
MANz can't make use of ramming speed, which is fairly essential to make reliable charges from deep strike.
Hum, if understand correctly, that would make the Deff Dreads also unreliable since they separate for purposes of the ramming strat? (only one of them would be eligible if read this right)
Being true, a bit of a bummer :( since i wanted to use dreads or MANZ in some way cause i like them. But the players i play locally are really good and they will punish me lol.
MANz are a decent unit though, just not for ramming into the thick of the enemy lines.
You deploy them on the board close to a center objective and then just move them there to kill whatever is holding them and take the objective from them.
In 9th the enemy is no longer hiding 24" away from you, they have to enter the midfield or they lose. Even slow units can just walk up to them and smack them in T2, against fast armies like drukhari, you are lucky to not be in combat T1.
Yeah the mission design helps them to get somewhere useful.
Sadly the only way to buff their charge is if you get a warboss with the Follow me lads WL Trait in first.
I hope they FAQ trukk boys / specialist mobs to get their Trait on top of their clan keyword.
In that case you could charge with an trukk boy warboss, da jump the MANz and get an 8" charge.
Hopefully it's not something like they are just allowed to embark on trukks with the "wrong" army clan keyword because right now they don't get to use all the auras etc. from non-trukk boy units. :(
Alternative take would be to tellyport trukk meganobs and charge after the trukkboy warboss, in which case you could take 7+ MANz if up to 6 in a trukk isn't enough for you.
@forceride: You could mix dreads and just charge 1 of them. Take 1 with 4 claws and use ramming speed on him while another one with 4 blastas stays back shooting.
Sadly that means he can't get that sweet kustom job for 4 extra shots then as it is only allowed on single Dread units.
If you put them in strategic reserve you could go for 2 x 1 though to get the custom Job.
Beardedragon wrote:
count as klaws. The same for killa kanz drilla and saws also count as klaws. They even posted a picture with a killa kan with a drilla in the codex, but the title said: Killa kan with klaw.
Jidmah wrote:
This was only a thing for the 8th edition codex - the probably realized that it added little and just cause problems for people who build their dreads years ago and axed the whole idea. For half the bits you can't really tell whether it's a klaw or a saw anyways.
Oh wow Im actually a fan of this since I always had issues with choosing weapons.
pepi55 wrote: Oh wow Im actually a fan of this since I always had issues with choosing weapons.
I actually spend a lot of time asking around for extra bits because I wanted mine to have the same weapon on every arm, so 8th accidentially hard-locked one of my dreads into klaws and one into saws. Not the end of the world, but annoying nonetheless.
For kanz it always felt like the different weapons didn't matter at all but just slowed down combat. Once again, most of mine were equipped with klaws and drills, because I used the saws to kitbash buzzsaws for my koptas
Im really surprised how tiny they are compared to what i would expect. I mean beasts of burden tend to be much larger than their masters, so i gotta say, i expected the squighogs to be double the size.
Looks weird from a sculpt point of view, but great from a gameplay point of view as its easier to maneuver.
I also expected the nob on smasha squigs, squig, to be slightly larger.
A walker list would benefit from a big mek and since the KFF big mek isnt worth it, I went with a MA big mek+KFF. The big mek should be included in the list so that it repairs the vehicles, but when it does that, there are not enough bodies for objective holding and screening...
The kanz will be on a TP waiting to ramming speed into a squishy target.
I dont know if I can take relics on anything other than my warlord, but I assumed I can so I put the redder paint on the deff dread. The 12" movement with ramming speed and a Waaagh amounts in my mind to something dead the first turn.
Spoiler:
++ Evil Sunz Patrol Detachment (455) ++
HQ:
1 Big Mek in Mega Armour (115) - KFF, Might is Right
The MA mek that doesnt know what he wants to do combined with 45 points that cant be spent on more bodies means that this list just wont do.
This is my attempt at "fixing" it but maybe some of you have a better idea? Not sure if the Klaw is worth taking without da killa klaw relic...
Weirdboy is there because I will need a way to TP units everywhere with this amount of bodies.
Spoiler:
++ Evil Sunz Patrol Detachment (430) ++
HQ:
1 Warboss (90) - Might is Right
1 Weirdboy (70) - Warpath, Da Jump
As for bikers, if you're not hiding them t1 and loose the roll-off, they're dead. Cause if you're running 9,the opponent knows you're gona use some shenanigans to make them deadlier and it's easier for him to just kill a bunch and than force morale checks that will also inflict a couple more casualties. So, if you're running 9,better have a plan to protect them t1. Currently, tellyportin' them with a wierdboy for a 1st turn dakka gun barrage on a flank is a legit tactic.
Problem with teleporting 9 bikes is their huge footprint, which is even larger than 10 meganobz. And unless the weirdboy has some other purpose than teleporting those bikes he's a pure tax. 9 bikes cost 235 points and can soak a lot of shots, don't forget that muti wound weapons (even the most common D2 weapons) can get some overkill results as bikes only have 3W. The key here is to avoid units that aren't expendable. If the opponent kills the bikes no worry, something else with the same value would be alive. IMHO -1 to hit and terrain should give enough protection. At worst there's still the 5++ from the wazbom that can be considered as well.
The MA mek that doesnt know what he wants to do combined with 45 points that cant be spent on more bodies means that this list just wont do.
I think the Big Mek in megarmor can be nice with pk, kustom shoota and tellyport blasta. Then give him the relic Dead Shiny Shoota and the Opportunist trait if you're Deathskulls. 95 points for a T5 2+ dude armed with a klaw, an anti tank weapon and that can fire 14/10 heavy bolter shots at BS4+ sounds nice. Can repair vehicles as well. I'd definitely avoid the KFF, a point sink with little benefit.
Well, if you're taking the mega armor Big Mek already, you can actually make a better argument for taking the KFF if you're using ghetto boyz than you could otherwise. It's 30 points, which is the cost difference between 10 Boyz with a klaw and Snagga Boyz.
That said, yeah, Dead Shiny Shoota averages 2 dead marines at 9" and the Blasta averages almost a dead marine at 12". With Deathskulls that is in fact about 5-6 targetable wounds average, and you could reroll a hit to wound and roll at BS4. Plus he's cheaper than he would be by the KFF by 20 points. And he'd have objective secured behind 2+/5T/6W. I could certainly see the appeal. He's clearly the ideal platform for Dead Shiny Shoota.
He definitely does more damage in the shooting phase with a tellyport blasta and a Dead Shiny Shoota than he could in close combat. Even with Da Killa Klaw and +1 attack with a WL trait he'd still be at 2 dead marines in CC and less on average than Da Shiny Shoota. With a PK and base attacks he can level about a marine each round of combat, so that's an appealing combination by comparison.
I was still considering building him with a KFF and something like Da Krushin' Armor and Proper Killy. That would give him 4 A with -4 APPK and 2 mortal wounds behind a 1+/4++ and still leave DKK for da warboss. He has a few interesting builds as a sidekick to da boss. Maybe magnetize the KFF and blasta and play around. The BS4 is still probably the most intriguing thing. With Freebootas he could be BS3 which would pair nicely with both ranged options.
Does anybody know when Battlescribe will be updated with the new Ork codex? It is possible to see the status somewhere?
With all these rules and exceptions in list building, just using a codex and notepad will likely result in errors.
Bonde wrote: Does anybody know when Battlescribe will be updated with the new Ork codex? It is possible to see the status somewhere?
With all these rules and exceptions in list building, just using a codex and notepad will likely result in errors.
Personally I've just updated my local data repository with updated statlines and a few points but I'm just using an excel sheet to calculate points.
Battlescribe ATM is only useful for the TTS gimmicks like painting squads to differentiate them, in any other case just stick with Pen&Paper, you're gonna have to check the codex frequently for rules and stratagems anyway as it stands.
Bonde wrote: Does anybody know when Battlescribe will be updated with the new Ork codex? It is possible to see the status somewhere?
With all these rules and exceptions in list building, just using a codex and notepad will likely result in errors.
Dunno, but I'm really not sure how crazy codex orks actually is in that regard.
1 warboss per detachment, and you can take a couple named characters in any faction. That's about it...
Bonde wrote: Does anybody know when Battlescribe will be updated with the new Ork codex? It is possible to see the status somewhere?
With all these rules and exceptions in list building, just using a codex and notepad will likely result in errors.
Dunno, but I'm really not sure how crazy codex orks actually is in that regard.
1 warboss per detachment, and you can take a couple named characters in any faction. That's about it...
I see your point. I think it was the whole specialist mobs part that confused me when the information was only half-leaked
Speaking of specialist mobs, it's probably worth going thru and pointing out real quick which ones are best to include in your detachments if you're just not sure:
1) Trukk boyz. To me this is generally always a good thing to think about, turns our somewhat anemic Troops slot into something that can project a very credible turn 1 threat. I wouldn't always slap one in there, for example if you're going for a turn 2 tempo hard-hitting goffs list it won't help you much, but trukk boyz/trukk nobz are generally a solid pick in a number of situations.
2) Pyromaniacs Burna Boyz. Pyromaniacs is a nice one because it boosts up a unit that doesn't really benefit from basically any kultur normally besides maybe Deffskullz. An 11ppm model with a flamer that can never roll below a 3 and has easy access to open-topped transport is just extremely good value.
3) Flyboyz if your clan isn't Freebootas or Snakebites. Offense>Defense generally in 40k so if you are going Freebootas that will probably outperform Flyboyz on your plane, but otherwise this is a good way to get a kultur on to a model that generally wouldnt' benefit much from it. with Snakebites Flyboyz is just basically going to be a side-grade so it's probably better to pick something else, both are minor defensive boosts.
4) 'Orrible Gitz honestly isn't that bad if you're just out of ideas. It's an almost zero-investment way to make a unit of grots just a tiny bit more annoying.
5) Boom Boyz on Tankbustas isn't too bad, particuarly if you're going for a melee kultur and want to have a little means to remove a threatening vehicle at range. Pairs nice with something like a green tide list where you wont have a ton of antitank power. Side note: Hilariously you can take Boom Boyz on Blitza-Bommers and Meks, which....have...no blast weapons.....
6) Sneaky Gitz/Madboyz/Big Krumpas: I just wouldn't bother personally.
Tomsug wrote: This is the answer of GW to complains about absenting ork codex in the app.
The main release in Orktober and I mean it. So be happy schizophrenic orks and play the old codex next 2-3 months...
Anyway, very interesting publishing plans. What is the pourpose? No idea....
The purpose is to show time and time again that as a company they should've gone under years and years ago but thanks to addicts and ridiclolous marketing strategies they still manage to float.
I'd like to point out that discussing GW's business practices is against this thread's rules. Feel free to create a separate one on this topic in the general forum or pick any of the existing ones.
the_scotsman wrote: Speaking of specialist mobs, it's probably worth going thru and pointing out real quick which ones are best to include in your detachments if you're just not sure:
1) Trukk boyz. To me this is generally always a good thing to think about, turns our somewhat anemic Troops slot into something that can project a very credible turn 1 threat. I wouldn't always slap one in there, for example if you're going for a turn 2 tempo hard-hitting goffs list it won't help you much, but trukk boyz/trukk nobz are generally a solid pick in a number of situations.
2) Pyromaniacs Burna Boyz. Pyromaniacs is a nice one because it boosts up a unit that doesn't really benefit from basically any kultur normally besides maybe Deffskullz. An 11ppm model with a flamer that can never roll below a 3 and has easy access to open-topped transport is just extremely good value.
3) Flyboyz if your clan isn't Freebootas or Snakebites. Offense>Defense generally in 40k so if you are going Freebootas that will probably outperform Flyboyz on your plane, but otherwise this is a good way to get a kultur on to a model that generally wouldnt' benefit much from it. with Snakebites Flyboyz is just basically going to be a side-grade so it's probably better to pick something else, both are minor defensive boosts.
4) 'Orrible Gitz honestly isn't that bad if you're just out of ideas. It's an almost zero-investment way to make a unit of grots just a tiny bit more annoying.
5) Boom Boyz on Tankbustas isn't too bad, particuarly if you're going for a melee kultur and want to have a little means to remove a threatening vehicle at range. Pairs nice with something like a green tide list where you wont have a ton of antitank power. Side note: Hilariously you can take Boom Boyz on Blitza-Bommers and Meks, which....have...no blast weapons.....
6) Sneaky Gitz/Madboyz/Big Krumpas: I just wouldn't bother personally.
You can make use of Big Krumpas if you decide to use a non goffs klankulture, +1 to hit on meganobs/deffdreads and putting them on a teleporter could be useful. No da jump as that is clan locked, but the teleporter is not clan locked
Jidmah wrote: I'd like to point out that discussing GW's business practices is against this thread's rules. Feel free to create a separate one on this topic in the general forum or pick any of the existing ones.
Forgot about that, I'll just change the subject.
And i'll do that theorizing what the best option for a T2 Tellyporta RAM would be.
I think the 3 options we have at the moment are the BoneBreaka/Kill Rig, 6 Killa Kanz and 6 Deffkoptas.
The Kill Rig brings a few auto-hitting lascannons (assuming it succeded in casting it's powers) wich brings it's ranged output to equalize the damage inflicted by the other two options (since open-topped won't help much with him only carrying Beast Snaggas) while the melee output of 10 Attacks with damage 2/3 and 4 Choppa slaps.
Killa Kanz will bring a frontload of 30 Big Shoota Shots (assuming getting within 18" of a viable target isn't an issue) for 240 points or 6d3 Rokkits for 330 points total. I'm not considering the Skorchas because with their large bases it could be an issue to get them all in range of a viable (aka INFANTRY target without messing up the follow-up charge). They top this with a Melee Output of 24 4+ S8 -3 D3 Attacks.
Deffkoptas for their somewhat hefty (by ork's standards) 300 Points unload a whopping 12d3 rokkits (Not sure about sidegrading to a KMB+bomb for this setup) and then follow them up with 36 Attacks (FIFTY-FOUR during a "vanilla" Whaaaag!). This melee output gets even sillier with Goff Kulture making them S6 (a lovely number not just for mirror matches but to deal with Gravis Marines) and exploding 5/6.
All in all the Kill Rig is the cheaper and surely effective option at wrecking hard/medium targets while Deffkoptas will benefit greatly from almost all kultures and can help out with both light infantry and hard targets.
Personally I do think that the higher price tag is in line with the 4CP Investment for the combo. Poor Killa Kanz are a victim of circumstances but can still pack a punch (especially if you were already bringing a Whaaaag! Banner in the area anyway.) and aside from morale they're probably the "tankier" option merely because of their 30 wounds split around multiple models with a 3+ save.
So this codex has finally convinced me to start a Waaaaaagh and buy my first Orks.
At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint, and fluffwise it favours a lot of my favourite ork models like mega-armour & walkers. As they're all useful units the bulk of the army will come from 2 (or 3) Combat Patrol boxes when they're eventually released. The new Deffkoptas seem like a solid pick and should fit well with the clan trait, Deff Dreads are always cool, while any spare Warbosses should convert easily into extra MANz.
With that in mind, aside from some MANZ which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out? While I'm not aiming to field a top-tier competitive list here, at the same time I want to avoid wasting hours painting up something like 30 grotz that will never contribute anything useful. Which do you think are the trap units to avoid in this book, and what else would work well with Bad Moons that I can go buy this week? Battlewagons? Killa Kans? Lootas?
xttz wrote: At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint
If you've never had the pleasure to paint Yellow may god have mercy upon your soul, for you simply don't know what a pain it is.
xttz wrote: With that in mind... which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out?
Gameplay Wise Bad Moonz are in a "meh" spot because their rules aren't that great.
Lootas are in a terrible spot but could be "playable" in a Bad moonz detachment. Deff Dreads don't really benefit from the Kulture while MANZ only benefit in something you're not taking them for anyway (shooting).
Warbikers, Dakkajets and a Big Mek with Tellyporta Blasta + Dead Shiny Shoota are probably the ones who'll benefit the most from the kulture, while a lot of other units either don't care about the kulture trait or are locked away from the klan's stratagem. Freebotaz are simply a better option for unleashing Dakka ATM.
xttz wrote: So this codex has finally convinced me to start a Waaaaaagh and buy my first Orks.
At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint, and fluffwise it favours a lot of my favourite ork models like mega-armour & walkers. As they're all useful units the bulk of the army will come from 2 (or 3) Combat Patrol boxes when they're eventually released. The new Deffkoptas seem like a solid pick and should fit well with the clan trait, Deff Dreads are always cool, while any spare Warbosses should convert easily into extra MANz.
With that in mind, aside from some MANZ which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out? While I'm not aiming to field a top-tier competitive list here, at the same time I want to avoid wasting hours painting up something like 30 grotz that will never contribute anything useful. Which do you think are the trap units to avoid in this book, and what else would work well with Bad Moons that I can go buy this week? Battlewagons? Killa Kans? Lootas?
Tell me where to spend my teef!
Bad Moonz' favorite two units are the Tankbusta and the Flash Git IMO. The mega-boss you'll be getting with their CP box is probably their best HQ (synergizing well with The Best Armor Teef Can Buy) and the best unit to use their signature stratagem is probably Lootas.
The strictly most competitive setup is probably Bad Moonz as allies, with a patrol that allows you to bring some Bad Moonz and another allied Goffs detachment to bring your melee units that you're going to use with your standard Waagh, but you're not giving up *that* much by sticking to all BM.
My starting setup would be:
Patrol
Megaboss
10 boyz (Trukk Boyz specialists) in a trukk
Dread with 2 Rokkits 2 Claws
3 Koptas with all rokkits
And from this point you could use some more anti-MEQ or anti-horde. Adding a Boomdakka Snazzwagon would probably be a solid pick for anti-MEQ, or some Lootas and another Trukk wouldn't be bad. Eventually you'll want to get a Bonebreaka to switch your warboss away from being in the trukk boyz trukk and that can also transport your MANZ. Warbikers are a good antihorde option that likes the extra range from Bad Moonz. Second HQ pick is probably you buy yourself a second box of MANZ and build the mega-armored Big Mek since you can fit 5 MANZ+the megaboss in the bonebreaka. Mega-mek can act as 'i got second turn' insurance by taking a KFF, standing in the middle of your army and popping the force field boosta stratagem turn 1 if you go second to give your army a temporary 5++, then he can hop into the trukk boyz trukk and continue to ride around in it after the boyz have hopped out and done their fighting. Since a megamek can take a kustom shoota he can take the Ded Shiny Shoota relic and put out pretty solid BS4+ dakka.
Bad moons aren't half bad. I think that 9 bikers can do great with 24 range dakka guns, moar dakka and extra hits. Increasing range by 6 and dakka range by 3 can prove to be quite benefical in some scenarios. Any infantry models with heavy or low-rangw dakka weapons will love it. Tankbustas and flash gitz are an obvious peak as they all love this extra range. While bad moon meganobz' benefits are arguable, maybe this dakka range on shootas or heavy range on rokkits can still be ok for camping midfield.
The relic ain't that great any more but you can still utilize it on a fw bikerboss. Extra range for dss is nice tho.
The MA mek that doesnt know what he wants to do combined with 45 points that cant be spent on more bodies means that this list just wont do.
I think the Big Mek in megarmor can be nice with pk, kustom shoota and tellyport blasta. Then give him the relic Dead Shiny Shoota and the Opportunist trait if you're Deathskulls. 95 points for a T5 2+ dude armed with a klaw, an anti tank weapon and that can fire 14/10 heavy bolter shots at BS4+ sounds nice. Can repair vehicles as well. I'd definitely avoid the KFF, a point sink with little benefit.
TedNugent wrote:Well, if you're taking the mega armor Big Mek already, you can actually make a better argument for taking the KFF if you're using ghetto boyz than you could otherwise. It's 30 points, which is the cost difference between 10 Boyz with a klaw and Snagga Boyz.
That said, yeah, Dead Shiny Shoota averages 2 dead marines at 9" and the Blasta averages almost a dead marine at 12". With Deathskulls that is in fact about 5-6 targetable wounds average, and you could reroll a hit to wound and roll at BS4. Plus he's cheaper than he would be by the KFF by 20 points. And he'd have objective secured behind 2+/5T/6W. I could certainly see the appeal. He's clearly the ideal platform for Dead Shiny Shoota.
He definitely does more damage in the shooting phase with a tellyport blasta and a Dead Shiny Shoota than he could in close combat. Even with Da Killa Klaw and +1 attack with a WL trait he'd still be at 2 dead marines in CC and less on average than Da Shiny Shoota. With a PK and base attacks he can level about a marine each round of combat, so that's an appealing combination by comparison.
I was still considering building him with a KFF and something like Da Krushin' Armor and Proper Killy. That would give him 4 A with -4 APPK and 2 mortal wounds behind a 1+/4++ and still leave DKK for da warboss. He has a few interesting builds as a sidekick to da boss. Maybe magnetize the KFF and blasta and play around. The BS4 is still probably the most intriguing thing. With Freebootas he could be BS3 which would pair nicely with both ranged options.
This is useful feedback, Ill go back to the list see if I find anything interesting. I also keep forgetting we have BS4 orks now.....
Definitely the main edge BM has over freebootas is the 30" range tankbustas and flash gits. As any marine player will tell you, that bump up to 30" is basically enough to make your unit functionally work as a stationary gun turret, and you absolutely do want those BS4+ rokkits and deffgun shots going off turn 1 for those units to be effective.
At higher point values, if you went 100% shooty, freebootas with a different unit setup would probably outperform, which is why I think BM wants to be set up around a standard waaagh with a hybrid shooting/melee rather than the fully shooty freeboota setup. but if you're going strictly for in-game power I think theres very little to recommend pure BM over BM patrol+Goffs Patrol or Spearhead.
On the discussion of MANZ, correct me if i am wrong, but they can use claw and combi-skorcha weapon at same time?
They also got a cost reduction if am right to 40 since claw is free? Is this right?
Also their CORE keyword so they can be Da Jump from weird boy?
1) Correct, you get a klaw and a kombi weapon or kustom shoota
2) 35 with kustom shoota/klaw, 40 with kombi-rokkit and 45 with skorcha
3) Correct.
So you could possibly table them in same way as dreads? Jump them and telly in scrapjets for support?
MANz can't make use of ramming speed, which is fairly essential to make reliable charges from deep strike.
Do bear in mind MANZ can be Trukk Boyz, which I think is 100% the best way to use them if you want them to be a turn 1 tempo unit rather than part of a big turn 2 crash. If I'm using Da Jump, what I want to be doing is establishing board control because the charge isn't going to be nearly as reliable. Da Jumping a unit of shoota boyz or choppa boyz into some decent cover, and if they make it in, fine, if they dont make it in, they're a solid brick of a unit that is now occupying a huge chunk of the board and will be very inefficient to remove.
LMAO, ok...now please bear with me on this one...but I might have just broken the ork codex and i doubt it so please point out anything wrong with this.
Take your Normal army in a Battalion/Brigade but include 3x 10 Tankbustas. Also include a "Fortification Network" for 1CP...which apparently you get back if the network is the same faction and the same as your warlord.
Next, Spend 6CP to place 3 Big'ed bossbunka's in the Teleporta all loaded with 10 Tankbustas. Turn 2 you Teleporta down all 3 bunkas where they will have the biggest impact.
Rules for the Big Bossbunka says any embarked unit counts as having not moved unless they "embarked" this turn. So turn 2 you get 30 Tankbustas, hitting on 4s all within range of something for 30xD3 attacks which averags out to 60 and 30 hits. ALSO, the Bunka itself has an auto-hitting S9 AP-4 3D LANCE weapon if you guys remember what those were so you draw a line from the bunka to the nearest model in the targeted unit. Everything that line touches within 18' is auto-hit. And against most targets its wounding on 3s
So its a hefty investment, but you get 36 T8 3+ wounds which have ramshackle. Between it and the tankbustas you have a max range of 18' (24 if you select bad moonz). If you are worried about chaff units you could also load in a unit of Burna Boyz which would dish out 8D6 S4 auto-hits as well which averages out to 21 S4 hits per Bunka.
likewise you could also put in some Flashgitz who would be 30 shots hitting on 4s (3s if you are Freebootas and kill something first).
Jidmah wrote: I'd like to point out that discussing GW's business practices is against this thread's rules. Feel free to create a separate one on this topic in the general forum or pick any of the existing ones.
the_scotsman wrote: Definitely the main edge BM has over freebootas is the 30" range tankbustas and flash gits. As any marine player will tell you, that bump up to 30" is basically enough to make your unit functionally work as a stationary gun turret, and you absolutely do want those BS4+ rokkits and deffgun shots going off turn 1 for those units to be effective.
Flash Gitz just scream to be Tellyported in turn 2. You drop them in a ruin midfield and vomit fire twice with the stratagem. Don't forget that the Freebootaz bonus STACKS so the first kill from someone else erases your movement malus while the second one boosts you to the 3+ we all love and crave.
Not every list will give you kills this easily ofc but if you're going full out on shooting it's safe to assume that you'll have one round on 4+ and one on 3+ even if you tellyported. And most "Proper" tables nowadays punish a lot static turrets, since there'll be few shooting lanes you're better placing them in an optimal spot for that turn 2 Speedwhaag! craze.
xttz wrote: So this codex has finally convinced me to start a Waaaaaagh and buy my first Orks.
At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint, and fluffwise it favours a lot of my favourite ork models like mega-armour & walkers. As they're all useful units the bulk of the army will come from 2 (or 3) Combat Patrol boxes when they're eventually released. The new Deffkoptas seem like a solid pick and should fit well with the clan trait, Deff Dreads are always cool, while any spare Warbosses should convert easily into extra MANz.
With that in mind, aside from some MANZ which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out? While I'm not aiming to field a top-tier competitive list here, at the same time I want to avoid wasting hours painting up something like 30 grotz that will never contribute anything useful. Which do you think are the trap units to avoid in this book, and what else would work well with Bad Moons that I can go buy this week? Battlewagons? Killa Kans? Lootas?
Tell me where to spend my teef!
Hard to tell honestly, but getting a plane box and fully magnetizing one for all four options is definitely something worth doing, as both dakka jet and wazzbom look really good and neither bommer looks terrible.
If you have already set your mind on bad moons, a SJD or scrapjet might also be decent for them, but hard to tell if they end up being the best choice IMO.
Next up would be ever-greens like trukks, dreads and battlewagons. You could also get the AoS weirdnob as a weirdboy (don't buy the finecast weirdboy).
If you plan on getting lootas, also make sure to buy a box of old boyz now - a box of boyz can provide the bodies to build all the burnas in addition to lootas. This trick will absolutely die with the new sculpts.
the_scotsman wrote: Definitely the main edge BM has over freebootas is the 30" range tankbustas and flash gits. As any marine player will tell you, that bump up to 30" is basically enough to make your unit functionally work as a stationary gun turret, and you absolutely do want those BS4+ rokkits and deffgun shots going off turn 1 for those units to be effective.
Flash Gitz just scream to be Tellyported in turn 2. You drop them in a ruin midfield and vomit fire twice with the stratagem. Don't forget that the Freebootaz bonus STACKS so the first kill from someone else erases your movement malus while the second one boosts you to the 3+ we all love and crave.
Not every list will give you kills this easily ofc but if you're going full out on shooting it's safe to assume that you'll have one round on 4+ and one on 3+ even if you tellyported. And most "Proper" tables nowadays punish a lot static turrets, since there'll be few shooting lanes you're better placing them in an optimal spot for that turn 2 Speedwhaag! craze.
Oh, Don't worry, I am literally already kitbashing the Idoneth Deepkin special terrain piece to be a Big'ead bossbunka piloted by an incredibly exuberant kaptin who likes crashing it into the battlefield.
SemperMortis wrote: LMAO, ok...now please bear with me on this one...but I might have just broken the ork codex and i doubt it so please point out anything wrong with this.
Spoiler:
Take your Normal army in a Battalion/Brigade but include 3x 10 Tankbustas. Also include a "Fortification Network" for 1CP...which apparently you get back if the network is the same faction and the same as your warlord.
Next, Spend 6CP to place 3 Big'ed bossbunka's in the Teleporta all loaded with 10 Tankbustas. Turn 2 you Teleporta down all 3 bunkas where they will have the biggest impact.
Rules for the Big Bossbunka says any embarked unit counts as having not moved unless they "embarked" this turn. So turn 2 you get 30 Tankbustas, hitting on 4s all within range of something for 30xD3 attacks which averags out to 60 and 30 hits. ALSO, the Bunka itself has an auto-hitting S9 AP-4 3D LANCE weapon if you guys remember what those were so you draw a line from the bunka to the nearest model in the targeted unit. Everything that line touches within 18' is auto-hit. And against most targets its wounding on 3s
So its a hefty investment, but you get 36 T8 3+ wounds which have ramshackle. Between it and the tankbustas you have a max range of 18' (24 if you select bad moonz). If you are worried about chaff units you could also load in a unit of Burna Boyz which would dish out 8D6 S4 auto-hits as well which averages out to 21 S4 hits per Bunka.
likewise you could also put in some Flashgitz who would be 30 shots hitting on 4s (3s if you are Freebootas and kill something first).
That might not be competitive, but it's fething genius
I really miss boarding planks as a vehicle upgrade - they used to allow a single model to attack other vehicles and monsters while embarked on a transport.
Yeah, even though today it wouldnt be as impactful i still miss it. The old days of ramming (literally) a vehicle and deploying the "Kan Op'na" nob to instagib said vehicle w/o getting out are long gone and sorely missed. These days it wouldnt be that amazing since a single klaw nob isnt going to kill a vehicle, but at least its attacks the trukk wouldnt normally get and still would hit fairly hard. I find it funny that GW these days are all "No model no rules!" and even went the weird route of giving rules to abstract gear because it was modeled, even though in the past it was considered just generic greeble or alternate klaw type weapons. Yet the boardingplanks went away entirely, a distinct design feature of the trukk somehow does nothing. Confusing as hell it is.
Can't give orks a boarding plank stratagem, that'd take up space we need for the 19 Beast Snaggaz only stratagems. After all, how would we play orks if we didn't have a stratagem dedicated only to being able to re-declare a charge with the Nob on Smasha Squig if he somehow wiped out a target unit using just his litlte ramming MW ability???
It's not like we could use that strat on any other units - causing mortal wounds on the charge is a super weird thing that not many ork units have!!!!
SemperMortis wrote: LMAO, ok...now please bear with me on this one...but I might have just broken the ork codex and i doubt it so please point out anything wrong with this.
Take your Normal army in a Battalion/Brigade but include 3x 10 Tankbustas. Also include a "Fortification Network" for 1CP...which apparently you get back if the network is the same faction and the same as your warlord.
Next, Spend 6CP to place 3 Big'ed bossbunka's in the Teleporta all loaded with 10 Tankbustas. Turn 2 you Teleporta down all 3 bunkas where they will have the biggest impact.
Rules for the Big Bossbunka says any embarked unit counts as having not moved unless they "embarked" this turn. So turn 2 you get 30 Tankbustas, hitting on 4s all within range of something for 30xD3 attacks which averags out to 60 and 30 hits. ALSO, the Bunka itself has an auto-hitting S9 AP-4 3D LANCE weapon if you guys remember what those were so you draw a line from the bunka to the nearest model in the targeted unit. Everything that line touches within 18' is auto-hit. And against most targets its wounding on 3s
So its a hefty investment, but you get 36 T8 3+ wounds which have ramshackle. Between it and the tankbustas you have a max range of 18' (24 if you select bad moonz). If you are worried about chaff units you could also load in a unit of Burna Boyz which would dish out 8D6 S4 auto-hits as well which averages out to 21 S4 hits per Bunka.
likewise you could also put in some Flashgitz who would be 30 shots hitting on 4s (3s if you are Freebootas and kill something first).
i thought of this myself, however in reallity you can't deploy with 9" of the enemy, and can't deploy within 3 inches of terrain including other big ead bunkers which have the building keyword and are classed as terrain - so deploying 3 in a teleporter will be very difficult. At least that is my feeling.
I often in the past would put lots of units into deep strike like kommandos etc, and find it difficult to deploy now that the maps are so much smaller. And now with all the terrrain it would make it really difficult to do with 3 big ead bunkers.
xttz wrote: So this codex has finally convinced me to start a Waaaaaagh and buy my first Orks.
At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint, and fluffwise it favours a lot of my favourite ork models like mega-armour & walkers. As they're all useful units the bulk of the army will come from 2 (or 3) Combat Patrol boxes when they're eventually released. The new Deffkoptas seem like a solid pick and should fit well with the clan trait, Deff Dreads are always cool, while any spare Warbosses should convert easily into extra MANz.
With that in mind, aside from some MANZ which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out? While I'm not aiming to field a top-tier competitive list here, at the same time I want to avoid wasting hours painting up something like 30 grotz that will never contribute anything useful. Which do you think are the trap units to avoid in this book, and what else would work well with Bad Moons that I can go buy this week? Battlewagons? Killa Kans? Lootas?
Tell me where to spend my teef!
First... welcome to the Waaagh! We always need more lads up in here!
Secondly … Bad Moons aren't my strong suite, so aside from "More dakka!" the advice *I* have on this one's not so hot, but I can direct you to someone who's a big Bad Moons fan and who just dropped a long video detailing his thoughts on the new coex and how to use it for Mooning people.
There's a bit about knowing your local meta .. if everyone uses plasma weapons, there's no point in taking T 5/6 models with a good save as you're paying points for bonuses that those guys will avoid, for example … but, ultimately, it comes down to what you WANT to use.
Shootaboys are fun, but if you don't want to paint up 60, skip 'em!
The new buggies are cool, but they're *extremely* busy models that you might not want to paint despite them being strong in a fight. So maybe you skip those.
Maybe you love Grots, and despite them being non-strong right now, you want to put them on the field … then do it! Heck with the haters!
Your army is *your* army. Take advice, sure, but at the end of the day, put the models on the table that you want to use.
I just thought about using 10 tankbustas, 2 with tankhammers as trukkboys.
Drive up, move out, shoot something of worth, run in with 2 tankhammers, deal 2D6 mortal wounds.
Die.
Competitive? hell no. But the fact that tankhammers are D6 now makes me wanna try it
what we are missing is a tank busta special character like zagstrukk/snikrot/badrukk/mozrog skragbad
i think it would be really cool to have a tankbuster special character that used tank hammer like weapon for every attack did d6 mortals vs vehicles but didn't die lol
But yes. Deepstriking at least one bunker in with tankbustas seem like an actually pretty decent idea. If i run Bad Moon or Freebootas, i will definitely be giving my big shootas a second look due to the speed waaagh. Quantity really is better than quality when throwing out that speed waaagh or combined waaagh from ghazzy. Suddenly your 4 big shootas on a battle wagon during a speed waaagh is going to matter.
So depending on the clan im using, i will be considering actually spending points on big shootas these days to get the most out of speed waaaghs / Great waaaghs. And i almost feel like a dakkajet or two would be mandatory to swoop in on turn 2 where you might throw down the waaaghs, and shoot like 42 str 6 shots. Unless your enemy has pitiful shooting then you can keep the dakkajets on the table from turn 1.
Dakkajets are true MVPs of speed waaaghs.
im still completely bummed out by the fact that infantry shooting dont get gak from any of the waaaghs. its probably not an oversight but it sure feels like it.
I mean that really depends on a FAQ answer I feel. It's equally easy to argue 'modifiers apply to passengers, this is a modifier' as it is to argue that only -1/+1 to hit is a modifier.
Sadly it seems like gw is in 'see no evil hear no evil speak no evil' mode regarding the ork codex until the full release in ???ember this year.
I just thought about using 10 tankbustas, 2 with tankhammers as trukkboys.
Drive up, move out, shoot something of worth, run in with 2 tankhammers, deal 2D6 mortal wounds.
Die.
Competitive? hell no. But the fact that tankhammers are D6 now makes me wanna try it
what we are missing is a tank busta special character like zagstrukk/snikrot/badrukk/mozrog skragbad
i think it would be really cool to have a tankbuster special character that used tank hammer like weapon for every attack did d6 mortals vs vehicles but didn't die lol
I’m not even sure what’s tankbustas role anymore are they a range static rockket shooting threat but the tank hammer is a great melee suicide unit to bad it can only take 1 per 10 models. Are they made to be mobile shooting platform? Doesn’t seem it. I think this is a unit looking for a new kit to find it’s role. Either all rokkit pistols and tank hammers or rokkits and gitfinders. A named character can probbaly be a combo klaw/rokkit arm cybork who survived long enough to become a nob leading tankbustas. Let these guys excel in short range anti tank explosive role imho. I also think freebooters weapons should have went Dakka as well.
I just thought about using 10 tankbustas, 2 with tankhammers as trukkboys.
Drive up, move out, shoot something of worth, run in with 2 tankhammers, deal 2D6 mortal wounds.
Die.
Competitive? hell no. But the fact that tankhammers are D6 now makes me wanna try it
what we are missing is a tank busta special character like zagstrukk/snikrot/badrukk/mozrog skragbad
i think it would be really cool to have a tankbuster special character that used tank hammer like weapon for every attack did d6 mortals vs vehicles but didn't die lol
I’m not even sure what’s tankbustas role anymore are they a range static rockket shooting threat but the tank hammer is a great melee suicide unit to bad it can only take 1 per 10 models. Are they made to be mobile shooting platform? Doesn’t seem it. I think this is a unit looking for a new kit to find it’s role. Either all rokkit pistols and tank hammers or rokkits and gitfinders. A named character can probbaly be a combo klaw/rokkit arm cybork who survived long enough to become a nob leading tankbustas. Let these guys excel in short range anti tank explosive role imho. I also think freebooters weapons should have went Dakka as well.
Theyre a cheap unit with +1 to hit rokkits....tankhammers have been a joke weapon for two editions now, theyre not a serious tactical consideration. They're less mobile than koptas or skrapjets but they don't lose any effectiveness for the first 9 wounds they take (because it's on the trukk) and they can make use of grot shields.
some kind of shooty unit in a trukk with a squad of grots standing in front of it guarding a home objective with some cover is actually a real PITA to take out.
"First, you gotta kill my trukk. Ok, you've killed my trukk, now 1cp for grot shields, you gotta kill the 10 T3 5+ bodies in front of me before you can target me at all."
So turning the MA big mek into a shooting platform unlocked enough room for an additional 5man obsec unit for the Deffskulls list I was trying to make.
Spoiler:
++ Deffskulls Patrol Detachment (500) ++
HQ:
1 Big Mek in Mega Armour (95) - Tellyport Blasta, Opportunist, Dead Shiny Shoota
I like that big Mek build though -- thought of it myself. I wanna try it, as I think it can actually threaten some of these squishier characters (Ad Mech Marshals, DE succubus, Eldar psykers...). OFC, 12" is still a huge issue to get the snipe off.
I like that big Mek build though -- thought of it myself. I wanna try it, as I think it can actually threaten some of these squishier characters (Ad Mech Marshals, DE succubus, Eldar psykers...). OFC, 12" is still a huge issue to get the snipe off.
Wow big bummer. im scared that missing waaagh is too big of a penalty to justify a bigmek though....
That bigmek loadout was suggested to me by Blackie and TedNugent i was too busy forgetting the BS4 they got hahah
The first HQ in any detachment definitely 100% needs to be a warboss, but I think megamek is a better contender for 'what do I do with my second hq in a battlion' than initially I suspected.
Particularly given how many of my lists are featuring the ol' trukk boyz. Having the megamek there to make use of the transport that's going to be very likely to be empty T1 seems pretty solid for vehicle-heavy lists where a weirdboy is unlikely to be a good option.
The only question is whether the KFF is worth it for the one-time 5++ pop over the tellyport blasta's extra d6 12" range rokkit shots.
my megamek is glued with the KFF anyhow, so that'll be definitely what i start out testing him with, but I do think it's a choice.
I think a kff mek is mandatory for a buggy list if you want to go competitive and have a chance of winning vs tougher enemies if you get to go 2d.
-1 to hit for speed freaks, ramshackle and 5++ makes our buggies MUCH tougher than they look at first glance.
And buggies are our bread and butter, it seems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally, I've bought 4 right away. And i:'m gona lend a couple more from a friend to run 2*2 scraps, 1 + 1 squigbuggy and whatever else I may lay my hand on.
So I know that the idea of Boyz mobs has been shot down on the basis that they are more expensive PPM and lost mob rule.
However, I just ran some math for fun.
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 8th edition T4 boyz with 6+
6.6 wounds
4.356 wounds with a 5++ KFF 3.62 wounds with a 5++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 9th edition T5 Boyz with 6+
4.356 wounds
3.62 wounds with a 6++ KFF 3 wounds with a 6++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
Food for thought. Naked boyz are as durable against S4 AP-1 as a T4 boy with a 5++ KFF.
With a 6++ KFF, T5 boyz are as durable as T4 boyz with a 5++ KFF and a 6+++ FNP against strength 4 AP-1.
TedNugent wrote: So I know that the idea of Boyz mobs has been shot down on the basis that they are more expensive PPM and lost mob rule.
However, I just ran some math for fun.
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 8th edition T4 boyz with 6+
6.6 wounds
4.356 wounds with a 5++ KFF 3.62 wounds with a 5++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 9th edition T5 Boyz with 6+
4.356 wounds
3.62 wounds with a 6++ KFF 3 wounds with a 6++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
Food for thought. Naked boyz are as durable against S4 AP-1 as a T4 boy with a 5++ KFF.
With a 6++ KFF, T5 boyz are as durable as T4 boyz with a 5++ KFF and a 6+++ FNP against strength 4 AP-1.
The problem starts when you start factoring morale. If previously you could loose 10 boyz to shooting, now you'd loose around 8 + 3-5 to morale which ends up with more losses that are also more expensive. You also don't get the Green tide strategem which was the main reason boyz returned to the table in mid-late 8th and were still viable in 9th.
Morale issues don't show as much for small squads, though, so I think, if you're not running a Green tide, 10 boyz here or there are ok. The problem starts when you get to compare them with what got BUFFED. You quickly realize that 10 extra boyz that will likely just camp an objective are 90 pts that didn't go to something better. And if you want that objective, take kommandoes.
The problem I have for boys stems that the KFF is now 85 or 115 points. If I'm just buffing boys mosty, I'd rather just take them as snaggas. At least they get extras on top of the invul, and they keep it when they outpace the mek.
Boys have their place, but it's not to be budget Snaggas.
I think you take the KFF for defending stuff like Buggies, though -- still legit imo. They can repair them too.
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (Scaremonger)
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (Da Red Gobbo)
Waaagh Banner Nob 70 (Old Makari)
Painboy 70 (Broomasta)
11x Stormboyz (Boingrot Bounderz) 121pts
Grot Mega-Tank with 7x Kustom Mega Blastas and extra-kustom weapon 180
6x Killa Kanz with Rokkit Launchas 330
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
............
..........Now hear me out. Hear me out.
I take Green Tide, I take Stomp Em Good and I take either Loot the Good Bits (if I've got 3 decent midboard objectives to try for) or Raise Banners, or Retrieve Octarius Data depending on what the objective setup looks like.
Stomp 'Em Good is ALMOST uncontestable by my opponent, because he's got like, one non-character, non-gretchin unit on the board to try and kill in melee. Basically any turn I manage to kill anything in melee I score 3-4 points. I can deep strike/outflank/da jump basically everything everywhere, so I can score lots of green tide points and gobble up every objective, and basically I use the hilarious firehose of the megatank and the 6-man killa kan squad to remove things that look like theyre threatening to table my sea of stupid stupid gretchins.
This almost seems like a list that might be pretty good at scoring points and winning games, even if it's got very little teeth to kill hordes
the_scotsman wrote: I take Green Tide, I take Stomp Em Good and I take either Loot the Good Bits (if I've got 3 decent midboard objectives to try for) or Raise Banners, or Retrieve Octarius Data depending on what the objective setup looks like.
Unfortunately you can only pick one Faction based secondary afaik.
Wow big bummer. im scared that missing waaagh is too big of a penalty to justify a bigmek though....
That bigmek loadout was suggested to me by Blackie and TedNugent i was too busy forgetting the BS4 they got hahah
Well, you'd need a couple of HQs anyway and you can call only one kind of waaagh/speedwaaagh so you'll likely have a warboss or a speedboss as the warlord and then the big mek is a legit option for the second HQ unless you need two close combat specialists. I think shooty big mek is a solid option to be the 2nd in command of a speedboss for a vehicle heavy list.
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Kebabcito wrote: I think that KFF idea is not so bad. He will even repair them at all.
Shooty big mek with tellyport blasta can repair as well .
Yep, Scatha is correct. It's in the 1st paragraph above the secondaries on the same page.
The list looks fun, but I'd be concerned that outside of the warboss on squig, suicide grot mega tank, and kans with morale issues, you really can't kill much and it would be easy to focus down those 3 units as you can't even protect them with grot shields.
I can’t believe people are talking about bad moons with mentioning the scrapjets. I am bringing 3*2 bad moon scrapjets tomorrow alongside a Goff vanguard (one snaggaboss on sguigosaur, 3*10 kommandos and a killa rig).
I feel Iike my bad moon scrapjets will be the stars of the game
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xttz wrote: So this codex has finally convinced me to start a Waaaaaagh and buy my first Orks.
At this point I'm pretty much committed to Bad Moons because the colour scheme looks like it'll be interesting to paint, and fluffwise it favours a lot of my favourite ork models like mega-armour & walkers. As they're all useful units the bulk of the army will come from 2 (or 3) Combat Patrol boxes when they're eventually released. The new Deffkoptas seem like a solid pick and should fit well with the clan trait, Deff Dreads are always cool, while any spare Warbosses should convert easily into extra MANz.
With that in mind, aside from some MANZ which units should I look at buying to start on while waiting for the patrol box to come out? While I'm not aiming to field a top-tier competitive list here, at the same time I want to avoid wasting hours painting up something like 30 grotz that will never contribute anything useful. Which do you think are the trap units to avoid in this book, and what else would work well with Bad Moons that I can go buy this week? Battlewagons? Killa Kans? Lootas?
Anyone have any opinions on Flash Gitz? They seem to have improved quite a bit. Maybe 10 in an open topped battlewagon?
I wonder how they compare to Lootas. The Flash Gitz are 10 more points a model, but are 2 wounds and a 4+ save so their durability is nice, but of course vulnerable to multi damage. Their guns are better AP, but less strength. They have a double shoot strat against closest target. Much shorter range though...
Also is it just me or is the ammo runt REALLY as bad as it it looks? 5 points to re-roll a single snazzgun shot?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Anyone have any opinions on Flash Gitz? They seem to have improved quite a bit. Maybe 10 in an open topped battlewagon?
10 in a boss bunka tellyporta seems like the way to go for tankbustas, flash gits, and lootas (pick your poison) to me.
Just noticed that flash gits and their transports don't have to share the same klan.
Not a fan of the boss bunka teleportation strat because it can't be placed within 3 of terrain or 9 of an enemy. That's really limiting in placement, but if you went Bad Moonz they would have 30 reach from a tall model so that would likely offset it a good bit.
Bonde wrote: Does anybody know when Battlescribe will be updated with the new Ork codex? It is possible to see the status somewhere?
With all these rules and exceptions in list building, just using a codex and notepad will likely result in errors.
Wow big bummer. im scared that missing waaagh is too big of a penalty to justify a bigmek though....
That bigmek loadout was suggested to me by Blackie and TedNugent i was too busy forgetting the BS4 they got hahah
Well, you'd need a couple of HQs anyway and you can call only one kind of waaagh/speedwaaagh so you'll likely have a warboss or a speedboss as the warlord and then the big mek is a legit option for the second HQ unless you need two close combat specialists. I think shooty big mek is a solid option to be the 2nd in command of a speedboss for a vehicle heavy list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kebabcito wrote: I think that KFF idea is not so bad. He will even repair them at all.
Shooty big mek with tellyport blasta can repair as well .
No way in a 500pts list... Maybe I should graduate to 1000pts i have enough models for that by now
TedNugent wrote: So I know that the idea of Boyz mobs has been shot down on the basis that they are more expensive PPM and lost mob rule.
However, I just ran some math for fun.
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 8th edition T4 boyz with 6+
6.6 wounds
4.356 wounds with a 5++ KFF 3.62 wounds with a 5++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
10 bolt rifles at rapid fire against 9th edition T5 Boyz with 6+
4.356 wounds
3.62 wounds with a 6++ KFF 3 wounds with a 6++ KFF / 6+++ FNP
Food for thought. Naked boyz are as durable against S4 AP-1 as a T4 boy with a 5++ KFF.
With a 6++ KFF, T5 boyz are as durable as T4 boyz with a 5++ KFF and a 6+++ FNP against strength 4 AP-1.
The problem starts when you start factoring morale. If previously you could loose 10 boyz to shooting, now you'd loose around 8 + 3-5 to morale which ends up with more losses that are also more expensive. You also don't get the Green tide strategem which was the main reason boyz returned to the table in mid-late 8th and were still viable in 9th.
Morale issues don't show as much for small squads, though, so I think, if you're not running a Green tide, 10 boyz here or there are ok. The problem starts when you get to compare them with what got BUFFED. You quickly realize that 10 extra boyz that will likely just camp an objective are 90 pts that didn't go to something better. And if you want that objective, take kommandoes.
I'm completely aware that leadership is awful, however this did happen before in 7th. And that was actually technically worse with challenges.
As far as Kommandos, they are clearly better and yet lack objective secured.
How realistic is it for Kommandos MSU to hug cover for the extra save, and what benefit could it potentially provide?
Someone earlier poo'd on Kommandos, saying they would be instantly vaporized by shooting.
However they are intriguing for only being 5 points more than a Boyz squad with PKs. Not sure why they get a discount, but okay.
Anyway, to that point, what about literally using mass MSU Kommandos? They get forward deployment plus an extra inch of move, and are more killy in terrain to boot. Basic Choppa slugga plus a klaw.
What's the best way to leverage their various perks? Forward deploy in ruins or deep cover around the board as close as possible?
I guess the real question I'm asking is, would there be any realistic way to run infantry on foot? It seems like everyone instantly settled on transports when they saw the new mob rule without a second thought, and there has been very little discussion on it.
Well, a Trukk costs 70, while a unit of Boys leggin' it costs 90, more if you upgrade the Boss to a melee weapon or add a heavy weapon to the squad. The question then becomes this: Is a trukk more durable, or less durable, than 10 boys?
In terms of offense? Boys are *clearly better. No point in that at all.
In terms of holding an objective, 10 ObjSec lads vs a single vehicle? Again, no question.
But when you look at either 2 squads of ten boys in trukks (340+ upgrades) vs 4 squads of footsloggin' lads (360 + upgrades), it's not quite as clear.
Keep in mind, even with the higher Toughness, boys will *melt* in today's game, so they won't be there long, but can 40 outlst 20 + two Trukks?
Once again, oh, how I lament the loss of 'Ard Boys.
(Which also brings us to option #2... 5 Nobs in a Trukk (160 pts+ upgrades) or two squads of 5 on foot (180 pts+ upgrades) … roughly the same offensive potential (1 less attack, 1 more Str), the same number of wounds (10) but a 4+ save instead of a 6+, No ObjSec, but could Nob Mobs become a thing?)
Not sure of the math off the top of my head. The trukk has a higher T, 1 less wound, but a 4+ save, and Ramshackle, vs a 6+. The trukk should take more firepower (barring true anti-tank weapons), making it the better option *probably* but, again, with no offense to speak of.
Tough call!
This one needs more gametime and less thought processing.
tulun wrote: The problem I have for boys stems that the KFF is now 85 or 115 points. If I'm just buffing boys mosty, I'd rather just take them as snaggas. At least they get extras on top of the invul, and they keep it when they outpace the mek.
Boys have their place, but it's not to be budget Snaggas.
I think you take the KFF for defending stuff like Buggies, though -- still legit imo. They can repair them too.
I think some idiot at GW screwed up when writing the new codex...a lot, but in this specific case, they screwed up by making the KFF a 6+++ instead of 5+++. I just dont understand how you can nerf it to be half as effective as before, reduce its range but increase its footprint by changing the wording to not wholly within and than go..."huh, this unit kind of sucks hard now, but you know what would really be good? Increasing the price by 25pts.". I mean...how do you nerf something that hard and than give it a 41% price increase?
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (gScaremonger)
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (Da Red Gobbo)
Waaagh Banner Nob 70 (Old Makari)
Painboy 70 (Broomasta)
11x Stormboyz (Boingrot Bounderz) 121pts
Grot Mega-Tank with 7x Kustom Mega Blastas and extra-kustom weapon 180
6x Killa Kanz with Rokkit Launchas 330
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
............
..........Now hear me out. Hear me out.
I take Green Tide, I take Stomp Em Good and I take either Loot the Good Bits (if I've got 3 decent midboard objectives to try for) or Raise Banners, or Retrieve Octarius Data depending on what the objective setup looks like.
Stomp 'Em Good is ALMOST uncontestable by my opponent, because he's got like, one non-character, non-gretchin unit on the board to try and kill in melee. Basically any turn I manage to kill anything in melee I score 3-4 points. I can deep strike/outflank/da jump basically everything everywhere, so I can score lots of green tide points and gobble up every objective, and basically I use the hilarious firehose of the megatank and the 6-man killa kan squad to remove things that look like theyre threatening to table my sea of stupid stupid gretchins.
This almost seems like a list that might be pretty good at scoring points and winning games, even if it's got very little teeth to kill hordes
This list seems it would be a blast to play but frustrating to play against. I like it!
Yeah, secondaries looked very gakky at the first look but they can be pretty interesting…
The trick with grots above is one example.
I 've found the Good Bitz are pretty interesting too.
And you don' t need 3 objectives. Just one of them score you 3VP per turn. That is enough for 15VP total.
Effectivnes of them depends a lot on the type of the mission, in case of center objectives are close to each other, it sucks. But if you play let s say Vital Inteligence with long diagonal deploy and objectives too far away, you take Bitz and there will be two on one side, one on other side.
Opponent wil expect, you go for two.
You go for one. It is enough.
This secondary is perfect for spreading opponents attention and forces all around the table. My fast shooting buggies likes it.
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (gScaremonger) Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (Da Red Gobbo) Waaagh Banner Nob 70 (Old Makari) Painboy 70 (Broomasta)
11x Stormboyz (Boingrot Bounderz) 121pts Grot Mega-Tank with 7x Kustom Mega Blastas and extra-kustom weapon 180
6x Killa Kanz with Rokkit Launchas 330 Kustom Mega Kannon 45 Kustom Mega Kannon 45
............
..........Now hear me out. Hear me out.
I take Green Tide, I take Stomp Em Good and I take either Loot the Good Bits (if I've got 3 decent midboard objectives to try for) or Raise Banners, or Retrieve Octarius Data depending on what the objective setup looks like.
Stomp 'Em Good is ALMOST uncontestable by my opponent, because he's got like, one non-character, non-gretchin unit on the board to try and kill in melee. Basically any turn I manage to kill anything in melee I score 3-4 points. I can deep strike/outflank/da jump basically everything everywhere, so I can score lots of green tide points and gobble up every objective, and basically I use the hilarious firehose of the megatank and the 6-man killa kan squad to remove things that look like theyre threatening to table my sea of stupid stupid gretchins.
This almost seems like a list that might be pretty good at scoring points and winning games, even if it's got very little teeth to kill hordes
This list seems it would be a blast to play but frustrating to play against. I like it!
except the grot mega tank has not been updated so we dont know if the loadout remains the same or the price changes. because i really doubt the price remains the same with all the increased damage output
Beardedragon wrote: except the grot mega tank has not been updated so we dont know if the loadout remains the same or the price changes. because i really doubt the price remains the same with all the increased damage output
FW models only got keywords and army-wide rules (blade artist, contagions) when they were updated along with their codex, no other changes are made.
FW almost never gets price changes outside of core codex changes if anything, and even then they often stay the same. Grot Riggers still had the Index version for the longest time for example (which cost an arm and a leg and was pathetic)
I'm of the notion they had word it was going to change to D3 shots and pre-emptively hyked it to such high costs. That thing almost doubled in price compared to its earlier incarnation, previously it was decent but nowhere near great (was great for the short time we had Grot Mobz before the new IA hit and changed it) and suddenly it shot up in points to ludicrous levels. I forget the exact price but i remember it being around ~130pts before with 7 KMBs, remember that in the index it was +5pts per kmb not +10. Thats the main difference, the current grot tank damn near doubles its cost to take 7 kmbs now. Same for Grot Tanks, they were decent enough with Grot Mobz to get some use out of them and again they got hyked up in price for apparently no reason. D3 shots makes it less of a nerf, though still feel a bit overpriced for grot tanks at least.
Beardedragon wrote: except the grot mega tank has not been updated so we dont know if the loadout remains the same or the price changes. because i really doubt the price remains the same with all the increased damage output
FW models only got keywords and army-wide rules (blade artist, contagions) when they were updated along with their codex, no other changes are made.
Im not sure i understand what you mean. Im guessing we can expect the D3 rokkits and KMB to hit the grot mega tanks? would be weird otherwise.
Blackie wrote: Warbikes are also very good under the Bad Moons trait.
Yes indeed, war bikers are great as bad moons. They need to have that dakka 24/12 instead of 18/9 and the bad moon strat. I haven’t found a place for them yet in my test lists but I know I will, soon
Beardedragon wrote: FW models only got keywords and army-wide rules (blade artist, contagions) when they were updated along with their codex, no other changes are made.
Im not sure i understand what you mean.
Im guessing we can expect the D3 rokkits and KMB to hit the grot mega tanks? would be weird otherwise.
The FW book doesn't list any rules or profiles or codex weapons anymore. If anything in the codex gets updated, so does the FW model, sometimes with weird side-effects.
Beardedragon wrote: FW models only got keywords and army-wide rules (blade artist, contagions) when they were updated along with their codex, no other changes are made.
Im not sure i understand what you mean. Im guessing we can expect the D3 rokkits and KMB to hit the grot mega tanks? would be weird otherwise.
The FW book doesn't list any rules or profiles or codex weapons anymore. If anything in the codex gets updated, so does the FW model, sometimes with weird side-effects.
I see. But alright, so the Grot Mega tanks are absolute power beasts with low cost and insane firepower, is what i hear.
Would that also mean the forge world biker boss has his weapons replaced with 2x dakka guns thats 18 inches each?
Also where is it written that codex rules gets transfered to forge world models? ive never been present at a codex shift as i started after our previous codex was already out. unless its a generalist rule everyone simply knows.
Thanks everyone for the advice on getting started. I found a local shop with 20% discount on GW and several Ork boxes in stock, so will drop by there soon.
Indeed. Don't even think about painting badmoons without getting a yellow primer.
Eh just prime white and use contrast paints it's fine.
Yeah my plan was to use wraithbone spray with ork flesh and nazdreg yellow.
I have done plenty of yellow recently with my Gryphonicus titans. It's something I think is much less hassle these days than when I first started out in the hobby (Sunburst Yellow lmao). Between base paints and contrast it's easier to achieve a decent result than it was 10+ years ago.
Blackie wrote: Warbikes are also very good under the Bad Moons trait.
Yes indeed, war bikers are great as bad moons. They need to have that dakka 24/12 instead of 18/9 and the bad moon strat. I haven’t found a place for them yet in my test lists but I know I will, soon
Open question - would Bad Moon bikers need a Wartrike to work properly? Still piecing together bits from this new codex but as I understand you need to take separate detachments for both a Speedboss & Warboss, and I will have the new Mega-Armour Warboss once it's released.
Alright. i looked in to my forge world book and im not sure i get it, that stuff updated in codex is auto updated in the forge world codex book.
But ill take your word for it. Nob bikers with dakka guns and D3 shots per kannon for grot mega tanks.
Im assuming the warboss on warbike though, loses his aura? otherwise he has the only advance and charge aura.
Edit: I think i understand. the names (weapons) in the forge world book is the same, but the ork codex has weapons profiles for those names of the weapons. So we look at the new ork codex and look up the weapon names those are the new profiles. aighty. So warboss on warbike uses new killsaw profile as well.
Got a rules question... Does Da Jump and similar effects (like thousand sons sorcerous facade) make the teleported models count as having fallen back when teleporting them outside of engagement range?
I ask because I saw a similar rule somewhere (dont remember exactly where) stating specifically that moving the unit this way does not count as having fallen back, but there is no such clause in Da Jump.
pepi55 wrote: Got a rules question... Does Da Jump and similar effects (like thousand sons sorcerous facade) make the teleported models count as having fallen back when teleporting them outside of engagement range?
I ask because I saw a similar rule somewhere (dont remember exactly where) stating specifically that moving the unit this way does not count as having fallen back, but there is no such clause in Da Jump.
pepi55 wrote: Got a rules question... Does Da Jump and similar effects (like thousand sons sorcerous facade) make the teleported models count as having fallen back when teleporting them outside of engagement range?
I ask because I saw a similar rule somewhere (dont remember exactly where) stating specifically that moving the unit this way does not count as having fallen back, but there is no such clause in Da Jump.
no. they only count as having moved.
gotcha. I think it might have been an old ruling somewhere.
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (gScaremonger)
Runtherd with Squig Hound 35 (Da Red Gobbo)
Waaagh Banner Nob 70 (Old Makari)
Painboy 70 (Broomasta)
11x Stormboyz (Boingrot Bounderz) 121pts
Grot Mega-Tank with 7x Kustom Mega Blastas and extra-kustom weapon 180
6x Killa Kanz with Rokkit Launchas 330
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
Kustom Mega Kannon 45
............
..........Now hear me out. Hear me out.
I take Green Tide, I take Stomp Em Good and I take either Loot the Good Bits (if I've got 3 decent midboard objectives to try for) or Raise Banners, or Retrieve Octarius Data depending on what the objective setup looks like.
Stomp 'Em Good is ALMOST uncontestable by my opponent, because he's got like, one non-character, non-gretchin unit on the board to try and kill in melee. Basically any turn I manage to kill anything in melee I score 3-4 points. I can deep strike/outflank/da jump basically everything everywhere, so I can score lots of green tide points and gobble up every objective, and basically I use the hilarious firehose of the megatank and the 6-man killa kan squad to remove things that look like theyre threatening to table my sea of stupid stupid gretchins.
This almost seems like a list that might be pretty good at scoring points and winning games, even if it's got very little teeth to kill hordes
This list seems it would be a blast to play but frustrating to play against. I like it!
except the grot mega tank has not been updated so we dont know if the loadout remains the same or the price changes. because i really doubt the price remains the same with all the increased damage output
Oh I'd be playing the GMT as written currently, not with the new rules for Kustom Mega Blastas....except that I'd be using the KMB kustom job so they'd all be Assault 2 Rules as written gaaaaaaaaaang whadda ya want I'm playing grots.
Frustrating point about the faction secondaries - I've only played like 2 games with a 9th codex so I'm not as familiar with them. I would probably keep stomp em good then and take Engage on All Fronts instead of green tide, and then I'd ditch the 'units of 10+ models" setup for just spamming a billion squads of 10 grots, widen out the list to a brigade by slotting in a mini-mek and splitting the stormboyz into 2 squads of 5.
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Tomsug wrote: In FW book - check it. There are no weapon profiles or describtion of abilities that are already in codex, just “see ork codex for the stats” note.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yes, motoboss has now the 18” dakka 5/3 5/0/1 as the bikers.
Same change on all of his other weapons.
WAIT YOURE RIGHT! I get spicy as hell grot mega tanks from day one! Grot tanks are still probably not as good as other alternatives (you just have to look at a grot tank vs a deffkopta to see that the deffkopta is basically better at everything) but 45pts for a bs4+ rokkit launcha is fairly decent.
Im pretty happy i bought 3 grot mega tanks just before the start of june They arrived 2 weeks ago. I havent put them together yet, but oh my lord i can see so much power from them going forward.
For 90 points you can get, if within half range 35 str 5 shots hitting on 4s and if you call a speed waaagh you get.. i believe 40 shots each with -1 AP (given 2 of the guns are twin big shootas). I suppose they could compete with Dakkajets by having lower strength per shots, hitting more due to BS 4, but dealing less AP. I guess you could also throw the dakka kustom job on these guys (again if you dont use a dakka jet)
Or 7D3 KMB shots or 7D3 rokkit shots for 160 points or so hitting on 4s. You could genuinly kill yourself on your first KMB volley. highly unlikely but pretty orky if id say so myself. If we skewer the game and put the kustom job for KMBs on the Grot mega tank using KMBs (which i would say STILL appears to be a blatant mistake as its in the mek department), then you will break the game completely for the price. I can see rokkits competing against deffkoptas but i believe they serve different purposes. As well as this one simply hits better.
next to that the profile is good for grot mega tanks in that they lose strength, attacks and movement. 2 out of 3 of those categories literally dont matter when they bracket.
I bought the grot mega tanks because i thought they were worth it before but now they are masters of disasters.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah, even just looking at it as "hey, here's a BS4+ unit that shoots 7d3 flat 3 damage shots for 160 points"....I'm definitely listening.
indeed. thats why i didnt think i could use them untill an update, i expected a point increase.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah, even just looking at it as "hey, here's a BS4+ unit that shoots 7d3 flat 3 damage shots for 160 points"....I'm definitely listening.
indeed. thats why i didnt think i could use them untill an update, i expected a point increase.
Atm they are just nasty.
...I mean, rokkits and KMBs are still 10pts for basically every unit that has them in the new dex.
I was able to play my first game with the new dex. the biggest lesson that came from it is that my squad of 6 deffkoptas will work better as a squad of 5. Trying to maneuver them on turn one and get a charge off after unloading rockets was difficult to keep the units all in coherency, as they were over 5 models. Also make sure to REMEMBER what all has ramshackle, it is a big deal.
Boys will t5 certainly are a bit more tough, but they still melt to ap anything.
Blackie wrote: Blast and coherency also have a significant impact on units of 6 but none on units of 5. 5 is typically the magic number for multiwounds models.
Yes, I have not played a ton since 7th edition so i am still wrapping my head around a few things.
Also, ramming speed is a great strat! i was able to telleporta a melle deffdread 10" out of a repulsor AND he paid the cp to give me a -2 so i would have needed a 12, and boy I rolled a 13 and did 3 mortals on the charge.
so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex of running beast snagga boyz and trying to make them work alongside making mostly foot orks work. my preliminary play results are... not great. playign competant opponents my normal boyz lost a lot to morale as they knew i could not bring them back so brought numbers down for the often failed leadership tests.
footsloggers special exemption of stormboys and komandoes being monsters for scoring points.
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
squads of 2-3 scrapjets are also really good not sure the other buggies benefit enough from squading them. dragsta is a useful tool for reacting to things when needed.
xttz wrote: Open question - would Bad Moon bikers need a Wartrike to work properly? Still piecing together bits from this new codex but as I understand you need to take separate detachments for both a Speedboss & Warboss, and I will have the new Mega-Armour Warboss once it's released.
A wartrike is the only speedboss, so the reason to play it is the speedwaaagh!. Which Waaagh! you want heavily depends on how heavy you go on vehicles, warbikers have space in either list.
technically, the warboss on bike is both boss types. I expect that to be addressed because that causes a weird loophole. Probably the only loophole of old FW new codex that tends to happen, rest is just suspiciously good grot tank/mega tanks
armed with big shootas theyre worse warbikes for more points, armed with rokkits theyre worse deffcoptas.
Similarly I wouldn't call the GMT particularly crazy. its got good firepower for the points but it doesnt get waaagh or clan kultur and its defenses are pretty flimsy for the point cost (comparative to a wagon chassis it has 5 fewer wounds and 2 fewer toughness)
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex of running beast snagga boyz and trying to make them work alongside making mostly foot orks work. my preliminary play results are... not great. playign competant opponents my normal boyz lost a lot to morale as they knew i could not bring them back so brought numbers down for the often failed leadership tests.
footsloggers special exemption of stormboys and komandoes being monsters for scoring points.
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
squads of 2-3 scrapjets are also really good not sure the other buggies benefit enough from squading them. dragsta is a useful tool for reacting to things when needed.
Can you tell me how you used the dakka jet? I tried one in my list yesterday and it was not... awesome. maybe I miss targeted him, maybe I didn't do it right.
armed with big shootas theyre worse warbikes for more points, armed with rokkits theyre worse deffcoptas.
Similarly I wouldn't call the GMT particularly crazy. its got good firepower for the points but it doesnt get waaagh or clan kultur and its defenses are pretty flimsy for the point cost (comparative to a wagon chassis it has 5 fewer wounds and 2 fewer toughness)
Are they worse than deffkoptas though? You have less rokkits but you DO hit on 4s.
armed with big shootas theyre worse warbikes for more points, armed with rokkits theyre worse deffcoptas.
Similarly I wouldn't call the GMT particularly crazy. its got good firepower for the points but it doesnt get waaagh or clan kultur and its defenses are pretty flimsy for the point cost (comparative to a wagon chassis it has 5 fewer wounds and 2 fewer toughness)
Are they worse than deffkoptas though? You have less rokkits but you DO hit on 4s.
yeah, they are worse than deffcoptas.
4 grot tanks with 5 rokkits - 190pts, 5 hits on average BS4+
4 deffcoptas - 200pts, 5.32 hits on average BS5+
Also has fly, also has 14" movement vs 6+d6, also does some melee vs basically no melee, same exact defenses.
The GMT is more of a question (neatly twice as much firepower as a kannonwagon for basically the same points) but it does have lower range, worse movement and much worse defenses plus the more ephemeral bonuses of access to speedwaaagh and clan kultur which can but dont always help out. GMT may actually be a very competitive piece RAW as an anti-tank alpha strike piece - say in Blood Axes where you can outflank it for freebies.
Beardedragon wrote: on a slight sad side i hadnt noticed before now, i find it sad that lootas remain heavy support slot rather than elite slot.
I dont feel like anything infantry related should ever be heavy support.
Flash Gitz arent core so maybe they can stay there, but Lootas are core.. why should they remain heavy support.
To be honest now that Lootas don't carry heavy weapons anymore I also think they should have been moved to elites, where they belonged once. On the other hand now Lootas in a trukk are finally viable since they can move and shoot, while getting closer to the enemy is also useful to get more shots. The extra protection of trukk has finally a true purpose now and actually I don't see the point of bringing them on foot anymore. While embarked they won't benefit from being CORE, but I don't think it's really an issue: what does CORE give to lootas anyway?
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex of running beast snagga boyz and trying to make them work alongside making mostly foot orks work. my preliminary play results are... not great. playign competant opponents my normal boyz lost a lot to morale as they knew i could not bring them back so brought numbers down for the often failed leadership tests.
footsloggers special exemption of stormboys and komandoes being monsters for scoring points.
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
squads of 2-3 scrapjets are also really good not sure the other buggies benefit enough from squading them. dragsta is a useful tool for reacting to things when needed.
Can you tell me how you used the dakka jet? I tried one in my list yesterday and it was not... awesome. maybe I miss targeted him, maybe I didn't do it right.
depends on the army you are against but it shreds infantry and can chip away ok at light vehicles. basically I pointed it at units that might contest points and prevent secondaries it took care of the problem. They do pretty well removing quite a few power armored bodies off objectives to prevent the opponent from scoring as well. Playign a tournamnt level admech skitari list they did a good job of removing bodies there too. orks still lost but it was closer than expected
Beardedragon wrote: on a slight sad side i hadnt noticed before now, i find it sad that lootas remain heavy support slot rather than elite slot.
I dont feel like anything infantry related should ever be heavy support.
Flash Gitz arent core so maybe they can stay there, but Lootas are core.. why should they remain heavy support.
To be honest now that Lootas don't carry heavy weapons anymore I also think they should have been moved to elites, where they belonged once. On the other hand now Lootas in a trukk are finally viable since they can move and shoot, while getting closer to the enemy is also useful to get more shots. The extra protection of trukk has finally a true purpose now and actually I don't see the point of bringing them on foot anymore. While embarked they won't benefit from being CORE, but I don't think it's really an issue: what does CORE give to lootas anyway?
Still crap competitively. For a fun game? Sure. But you aren't going to be getting your points back with a loota bomb in a trukk Granted, they will at least have a use for their spannerz armed with KMBs. Honestly though I think believe it or not...Burna boyz in a trukk will be more competitive since you can split fire the Spannerz into elite infantry or vehicles and use the Burnas to flame infantry to your hearts content
a squad of 12 burna boyz with the pyromaniacs specialist mob is quite possibly one of the best anti-infantry picks we've got tbh. Fantastic unit. And the Spanna stings a whole lot less at 11ppm than 17ppm for a model with a big shoota. they chew up nearly 20 geq models a turn and even put 7 wounds on meq in a pinch.
the main problem I have and have always had with lootas is just...theyre boring. theyre not orky to me. its just a glorified model with an autocannon.
I'd like it if Lootas had their specific Stratagem of cannibalizing scrap metal an always on ability instead of being a Stratagem. Fun and Orky. I'm assuming that one survived the transition into 9th.
Sorry if its already been covered, but if you call a speedwaagh, trukks will be affected by the -1ap as they are vehicles. Would this modifier affect their occupants via open topped?
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex of running beast snagga boyz and trying to make them work alongside making mostly foot orks work. my preliminary play results are... not great. playign competant opponents my normal boyz lost a lot to morale as they knew i could not bring them back so brought numbers down for the often failed leadership tests.
footsloggers special exemption of stormboys and komandoes being monsters for scoring points.
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
squads of 2-3 scrapjets are also really good not sure the other buggies benefit enough from squading them. dragsta is a useful tool for reacting to things when needed.
Can you tell me how you used the dakka jet? I tried one in my list yesterday and it was not... awesome. maybe I miss targeted him, maybe I didn't do it right.
depends on the army you are against but it shreds infantry and can chip away ok at light vehicles. basically I pointed it at units that might contest points and prevent secondaries it took care of the problem. They do pretty well removing quite a few power armored bodies off objectives to prevent the opponent from scoring as well. Playign a tournamnt level admech skitari list they did a good job of removing bodies there too. orks still lost but it was closer than expected
Hmm, alright, I will give mine another go. I was playing raven guard and it just didn't seem to pack the punch.
Levski wrote: Sorry if its already been covered, but if you call a speedwaagh, trukks will be affected by the -1ap as they are vehicles. Would this modifier affect their occupants via open topped?
The TLDR is 'we dont know'. A modifier to AP is not something that's really been conveyed to passengers before.
the_scotsman wrote: a squad of 12 burna boyz with the pyromaniacs specialist mob is quite possibly one of the best anti-infantry picks we've got tbh. Fantastic unit. And the Spanna stings a whole lot less at 11ppm than 17ppm for a model with a big shoota. they chew up nearly 20 geq models a turn and even put 7 wounds on meq in a pinch.
the main problem I have and have always had with lootas is just...theyre boring. theyre not orky to me. its just a glorified model with an autocannon.
Lootas feel like a unit stuck in 5th edition when autocannons were good. One penetrating hit and you could take out a vehicle.
Today they are just a 1W 6+ autocannon that dies to anything with low damage output.
RAI it's pretty clear that the AP modifier doesn't go to passengers though. That's a bonus for bikers and vehicles, infantry models already have their bonus from the other kind of waaagh.
Blackie wrote: RAI it's pretty clear that the AP modifier doesn't go to passengers though. That's a bonus for bikers and vehicles, infantry models already have their bonus from the other kind of waaagh.
As stated before, it's ambiguous. So discuss it with your opponent before it becomes an issue mid game
Blackie wrote: RAI it's pretty clear that the AP modifier doesn't go to passengers though. That's a bonus for bikers and vehicles, infantry models already have their bonus from the other kind of waaagh.
not really.
shooting infantry gains literally nothing from any waaaghs if they dont get -AP from the transports.
how would advance and charge +1 attack help lootas, burnas, flash gitz and tankbustas?
To me it doesnt make sense that shooting infantry would gain zero bonuses from either waaagh, so id say it sounds sensible for them to receive the -AP when transported in vehicles. I have no idea if GW made this their intention however, but it would make sense. Otherwise you are hampering your self by going infantry shooting because calling a waaagh means nothing to them.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah, even just looking at it as "hey, here's a BS4+ unit that shoots 7d3 flat 3 damage shots for 160 points"....I'm definitely listening.
indeed. thats why i didnt think i could use them untill an update, i expected a point increase.
Atm they are just nasty.
...I mean, rokkits and KMBs are still 10pts for basically every unit that has them in the new dex.
I was looking at MEK BOSS BUZZGOB - his ability Buzzgob’s Dredheadz, allows you to improve the hit roll of 1 unit of GOFF DEFF DREADS, GOFF MEGA DREAD, GOFF MEKA-DREAD, GOFF KILLA KANS, GOFF GORKANAUT or GOFF MORKANAUT.
this ability is klan locked and will last through both shooting and melee, however he isn't a specialist lad so will need to be in a goff detatchment
I am wondering how i can abuse it >
1 Deff dread with 5D3 KMB (via kustom job) hitting on 4's - it might not be 7D3 KMB but with buzz gob nearby you probably wont kill yourself rolling 1's at 125 points
or
MEKA-DREAD with 2 kill kannons for 2d6 shots hitting on 3's yeah thats right 3's at s8 -2AP with flat 2 damage - for some space marine killin = 165 (basically Da Booma but cheaper and hitting on 3's )
or finally have some decent Killa Kans hitting on 3's in both shooting and melee - a squad of killa kans would actually look half decent with buzzgob next to them =120-240 depending on number of kans
i suppose if you like gorkanaughts you could make the deffstorm mega shoota dakka 30/20 hit on 4's - personally i wouldn't take the naughts :p
Speaking of the Mekadread that reminds me the Kannonwagon is another great Freeboota procing unit. It hits on 5s, but the supakannon gets +1 to hit. So it doesnt benefit from Freeboota anyway (w/o a -1 existing that is) and its pretty strong for its cost. Highly doubt anyone cares about the bigshootas hitting on 4s when the big gun still hits on a 4 instead of a 3. Mekadreads are innate BS4 though, so they'd be better like Kingbbob said after benefiting from freeboota
(i remember seeing the Mekadread when the new IA came out and thinking double killkannon ftw...then saw the kannonwagon which was superior in every way for roughly the same cost lol)
Sad, as 10pts for 1 more shot is pretty fething dumb (purely due to orky BS, since its not likely to hit) Rather 10pts for "No mortals on a 1" at that point, so my megamek can fire w/o fear.
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Specific CHARACTER units.
it's in all caps and bold, my dude...
thats not what it says it says "specific character models OR UNITS"
Vineheart01 wrote: Speaking of the Mekadread that reminds me the Kannonwagon is another great Freeboota procing unit.
It hits on 5s, but the supakannon gets +1 to hit. So it doesnt benefit from Freeboota anyway (w/o a -1 existing that is) and its pretty strong for its cost. Highly doubt anyone cares about the bigshootas hitting on 4s when the big gun still hits on a 4 instead of a 3.
Mekadreads are innate BS4 though, so they'd be better like Kingbbob said after benefiting from freeboota
(i remember seeing the Mekadread when the new IA came out and thinking double killkannon ftw...then saw the kannonwagon which was superior in every way for roughly the same cost lol)
given that its got exactly 2x the firepower, I'll be reaching for the grot megatank over the kannonwagon to set up my 'bootas. Steamboat willie coming to wreck your shop, toot toot!
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Specific CHARACTER units.
it's in all caps and bold, my dude...
thats not what it says it says "specific character models OR UNITS"
fair I guess - it'll need to be 2-week FAQed i guess.it is basically clear to me that "Mek Kustom Jobs" are PROBABLY intended to only be able to be taken by Meks, Big Meks, or Spanna units. But throw it on the pile of things you can squint at and read funky I guess.
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
ah yes. as ive been saying, i doubt the KMB upgrade would work on deffdreads as it was in the mek department. Sure it might work now but i honestly dont think thats the intention. i also expect an FAQ
Vineheart01 wrote: Speaking of the Mekadread that reminds me the Kannonwagon is another great Freeboota procing unit.
It hits on 5s, but the supakannon gets +1 to hit. So it doesnt benefit from Freeboota anyway (w/o a -1 existing that is) and its pretty strong for its cost. Highly doubt anyone cares about the bigshootas hitting on 4s when the big gun still hits on a 4 instead of a 3.
Mekadreads are innate BS4 though, so they'd be better like Kingbbob said after benefiting from freeboota
(i remember seeing the Mekadread when the new IA came out and thinking double killkannon ftw...then saw the kannonwagon which was superior in every way for roughly the same cost lol)
Actualy, I care about Big Shootas hitting on 4+. Kannonwagon is very good unit. Can move 12” and still shoot over the board. So you keep him like zooming fire platform in the backfield and it has two tasks. One is obvious - shooting long range supakannon. And your note about ignoring freebotas is sad, but very right.
But his second role is deleting the “cheap deepstrikes” and similar kind of units and few more hits from 3 big shootas can make a difference.
Two another notes:
Somebody asked why Grot Tank is so overpowered now - Kustom Jon “Extra Kustom Weapon” gives +1 shot to EVERY KMB tanks has (up to 7?)
Somebody said, one Dakkajet was not so impresive -
1. You have to shoot on soft infantry. Than it works.
2. Jets always in pair or more. One jet is not enough.
….. the last point is valid for almost any vehicle except stompa I guess….
Grot Tanks arent overpowered, theyre more just good enough to actually be able to use now (clealry better options)
The Grot Mega Tank is 160pts for 7d3 KMB shots hitting on 4s, and if they dont fix that kustom job its 7D3+7 kmb shots for 170pts.
That is a LOT of S8 Ap3 D6 damage. Even if odds are it will nuke its own brains out (note that they 'fixed' kmb guys it can cause multiple mortals with the same gun now). Grot Mega Tanks arent exactly super tanky but theyre tanky enough where something more expensive than them is going to be invested to get rid of it.
That amount of firepower will reliably delete just about anything w/o a 4++ - it will probably die either in the process or shortly after, but given its cost...thats fine
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Specific CHARACTER units.
it's in all caps and bold, my dude...
thats not what it says it says "specific character models OR UNITS"
Except you can't put a kustom job on a UNIT of vehicles, only a single model. Which is the first half of it, CHARACTER models. The word units here clearly applies to the two kustom jobs that specifically say they affect an entire unit instead of single models. The extra-kustom weapon says model, not unit, meaning CHARACTER model, not UNIT. Even the flavor text says "the mek's own weapon", RAI is obvious here as well as RAW.
Vineheart01 wrote: Speaking of the Mekadread that reminds me the Kannonwagon is another great Freeboota procing unit.
It hits on 5s, but the supakannon gets +1 to hit. So it doesnt benefit from Freeboota anyway (w/o a -1 existing that is) and its pretty strong for its cost. Highly doubt anyone cares about the bigshootas hitting on 4s when the big gun still hits on a 4 instead of a 3.
Mekadreads are innate BS4 though, so they'd be better like Kingbbob said after benefiting from freeboota
(i remember seeing the Mekadread when the new IA came out and thinking double killkannon ftw...then saw the kannonwagon which was superior in every way for roughly the same cost lol)
given that its got exactly 2x the firepower, I'll be reaching for the grot megatank over the kannonwagon to set up my 'bootas. Steamboat willie coming to wreck your shop, toot toot!
Commissar Yarrork wrote: To everyone talking about taking the mek kustom jobs on a vehicle instead of a mek, this is in the glossary and pretty clearly shoots that idea down.
it says specific units, the kustom job in question only specifies that the unit must have a kustom mega blaster or mega slugga
Specific CHARACTER units.
it's in all caps and bold, my dude...
thats not what it says it says "specific character models OR UNITS"
fair I guess - it'll need to be 2-week FAQed i guess.it is basically clear to me that "Mek Kustom Jobs" are PROBABLY intended to only be able to be taken by Meks, Big Meks, or Spanna units. But throw it on the pile of things you can squint at and read funky I guess.
oh i know that but if they don't write these rules correctly what are we to do?
ignore the fact grot shield works on makari, which makes it so we can force the enemy to shoot all the kommandos (due to look out sir), then shoot makari, before finally shooting the unit protected behind makari.
ignore the fact you can teleport a big ead bunker, a piece of terrain which if placed correctly could block the movement of vehicles that can't fly, interfere with look out sir rule, and use careen stratagem.
ignore that flash gits aren't clan locked, despite the transport rules hinting that they should be with the wording "FLASH GITZ or <CLAN> INFANTRY models" being unchanged.
ignore that the warboss on warbike can currently declare speedwaaaagggghhh or waaaaaaggghhhh because it has the speedboss & warboss keyword
ignore that trukk boyz can't use trukks
ignore that the monster hunter stratagem has no end time so lasts the entire game
ignore the fact kustom jobs can't be used on SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT or SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT despite there being kustom jobs for morkanaughts/gorkanaughts
ignore the fact specialist mobs can't be used on SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT or SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT despite there being specialist mobs for morkanaughts/gorkanaughts
ignore the fact they misspelled the key word NOBZ on trukk boys and put NOB instead.
if they want mek kustom jobs to be limited they should use keywords to limit them, but they decided to be lazy.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Grot Tanks arent overpowered, theyre more just good enough to actually be able to use now (clealry better options)
The Grot Mega Tank is 160pts for 7d3 KMB shots hitting on 4s, and if they dont fix that kustom job its 7D3+7 kmb shots for 170pts.
That is a LOT of S8 Ap3 D6 damage. Even if odds are it will nuke its own brains out (note that they 'fixed' kmb guys it can cause multiple mortals with the same gun now). Grot Mega Tanks arent exactly super tanky but theyre tanky enough where something more expensive than them is going to be invested to get rid of it.
That amount of firepower will reliably delete just about anything w/o a 4++ - it will probably die either in the process or shortly after, but given its cost...thats fine
god didn't even read it right, its 1 extra shot per weapon- i thought it was 1 extra shot per model xD
ramming speed d3 mortals on 2+ (on the charge)
road kill warlord trait d3 mortals on 2+ (on the charge)
shokka hull d3 mortals on 4+ (everytime an enemy unit is selected to fight)
there you go between 3-9 mortal wounds gaurenteed before we even work out actual attacks
...well not guaranteed, you still have to roll 2+and 4+ xD
ignore the fact kustom jobs can't be used on SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT or SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT despite there being kustom jobs for morkanaughts/gorkanaughts
I can't find that restriction in the leaks. There's some text about not being able to use kustom jobs (and strategems) if your only ork detachments are the auxiliary detachment types listed, but that's standard in recent codexes.
So long as you have any other kinds of Ork detachment (like a Battalion or Outrider) then you can still use kustom jobs on "any Orks model in your army".
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?
ignore the fact kustom jobs can't be used on SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT or SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT despite there being kustom jobs for morkanaughts/gorkanaughts
I can't find that restriction in the leaks. There's some text about not being able to use kustom jobs (and strategems) if your only ork detachments are the auxiliary detachment types listed, but that's standard in recent codexes.
So long as you have any other kinds of Ork detachment (like a Battalion or Outrider) then you can still use kustom jobs on "any Orks model in your army".
Your interpretation is in my opinion correct but they write it in such away that it confuses people, and i have seen people try to argue that you can't use kustom jobs and specialist mobs on super heavy detatchments......so i put it on the list.
i think it's becasue people replace the <clan> keyword with specialist mob keyword.
and then insert the specialist mob keyword into the rules governing detachment abilities & Klan Kultures - which state "this does not apply to auxillary support,supperheavyauxillary or fortification network detatchments"
They doen't seem to realise they are replacing the keyword for the unit not the detachment.
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?
not a fan myself but did you use the more dakka kustom job ? or fly boys specialist mob ?
gungo wrote: After looking at my snagga box kinda disappointed how all the new models are monopose.
There's a tiny bit of stuff that can be done. The heads can be swapped around, one or two weapons have joints at the hand. But yeah it's a bit sad how little in the way of options are provided.
Also, i'm thinking about how to make a shooty character. The dead shiny shoota is pretty nice atm. For my money at least. And one of the best models to carry it is probably the Mega mek. Gets the BS4 but sadly has to ditch a KMB to do so and nowdays GW doesn't let you discount a character by taking cheaper wargear. Reckon the 14/10 D2 shots is worth swapping out the punch of a KMB? Also gets fun if you manage to trigger Freebootaz for a BS3 Mek with decent dakka.
Jidmah wrote: I need to start collecting all the errors and ambiguities for my FAQ mail... boy, what a mess.
Was this really written by the same people that did Codex: Death Guard?
It definitely feels like they were roleplaying as Orks when writing this in terms of all the errors and lack of oversight for clear rules writing, I guess they felt they could "ramshackle" their codex penning
Jidmah wrote: I need to start collecting all the errors and ambiguities for my FAQ mail... boy, what a mess.
Was this really written by the same people that did Codex: Death Guard?
Don't forget the Burna Exhausts being listed for weapons affected by Pyromaniacs specialist mob, while the only vehicle equipped with them (Kustom Boosta-Blasta) is not an eligible unit for the specialist detachment.
But yes, we certainly need a nice, fat, clearly written list of questions and errors (purely about rules conflicts and not "why you nerf X!?") to email GW so they hopefully get the FAQ done right.
Jidmah wrote: I need to start collecting all the errors and ambiguities for my FAQ mail... boy, what a mess.
Was this re ly written by the same people that did Codex: Death Guard?
Badrukk buffs himself but Snikrot doesn't. Yet again the plural Gw problem.
...
You know, we had a joke around here after the few codexes from the new edition that they are written by AI. Cause a lot of armies have been blanded and share common buffs, nerfs and detail errors cause AI doesn't give a damn. Now it doesn't seem like a joke any more.
the_scotsman wrote: a squad of 12 burna boyz with the pyromaniacs specialist mob is quite possibly one of the best anti-infantry picks we've got tbh. Fantastic unit. And the Spanna stings a whole lot less at 11ppm than 17ppm for a model with a big shoota. they chew up nearly 20 geq models a turn and even put 7 wounds on meq in a pinch.
the main problem I have and have always had with lootas is just...theyre boring. theyre not orky to me. its just a glorified model with an autocannon.
Burnas are the infantry shooting unit of the Ork Codex IMO. At 12" range why not? Shootas are basically most effective at 9" range, FFS, or 12" even with Bad Moon, and they still stink in comparison.
Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
If said boss is going to be leading the charge in such a way, pinning units in place and forcing deebuffs then it could be worth giving them the follow me lads trait, let units that are deepstriking, da jumping or fast enough to keep up make that little bit easier charge.
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
If said boss is going to be leading the charge in such a way, pinning units in place and forcing deebuffs then it could be worth giving them the follow me lads trait, let units that are deepstriking, da jumping or fast enough to keep up make that little bit easier charge.
Yeah, that's a good idea, actually. Might be helpful even for a t1 charge with storm boyz or units that got teleported by a wierdboy.
To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.
Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".
If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).
Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.
gungo wrote: After looking at my snagga box kinda disappointed how all the new models are monopose.
I believe that ALL new models for the forseeable future will be monopose.
It's to break the back of the bits industry.
The issue is more likely that they use CAD models now and cut them into injection-moldable pieces using an algorithm. Unless models are specifically designed to have "slots" for different bits, they are mono-pose by default. There is no malice found here, the just aren't investing the extra time because that time can be spend on even more models.
Beardedragon wrote: To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.
Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".
If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).
Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.
I think the rules have always struggled with things that are able to do something due to a rule but suddenly stops being able to do something. As an example, a librarian dred can get fly and thus move up onto a building. What happens if said dread fails to cast wings? Meaning he can't be on said upper floor, can't move off said upper floor, just exists in an odd rule limbo?
In the same way, tellyported units count as moving that turn, a fortification generally can't move. But the rule only really occurs when the unit is on the table, not off it/before being deployed. Mebbie it'll get FAQed, until then Imma say yes, Tellyport the buildings. If feels exceptionally orky to have bunkers appear in a flash of lightning, or be used like shoddily constructed droppods. Worth having 3 drop down all at once in front of the enemy? Zog if I know but I wanna do it!
Fight last is *crushingly* scary for Orks, yeah. One reason I'm looking again at shoota boys. The trick, I think, is to not think of them as a "Sit n Shoot", rather a good wave of plinking to soften the enemy up before a charge, getting 100% use out of 'em.
Choppa boys get one token pistol shot, then +1 atack at -1AP.
Shootaboys get 3 shots, then the normal level of melee swings after that. Are 3 shoota shots the same as +1 swing with -1 AP? *Maybe*. I think that the math is just *barely* in favor of the choppas, but with so many "Fight last" powers out there, it might be better to keep the lads back a bit until the enemy's not quite so mobbed-up.
Lots of math going on right now. Kans are looking *shockingly* good investments, even better than bikes if you can believe that, but only in small squads. (3 looks best, 5 at the largest) … at 8 pts per wound for a T5, Ramshackle, 3+ unit, they have the chubbiness that you need to outlast some units. They'll fall down and die against power fists of course, but against normal troopers, or their powersword-armed cousins, they can really go. Morale's an issue so you can't go *big*, but a trio's roughly the same cost as 10 boys with a big shoota and big choppa or five intercessors with a power fist while being more durable than either (and having better firepower than the marines, too.)
Meganobs lacking Invulnerables is going to get them splattered everywhere that you want to use them, but Nobs? Same cost as two boys, same number of wounds, but a 4+ save instead of a 6+ means that they're a better investment but with a tad less killpower.
Bikes are also there, at 8.33 pints per wound, the same T5, and 4+ save, but also -1 to-be hit, which is huge in terms of durability.
At 12.5 pts a wound, I'm not sold on Deffkoptas yet. There badly needed to be a verion for 40 pts that carried twin Big Shootas instead of Rokkits. That would have gotten the cost-per-wound down and given them a few other options. Yes, the rokkits are *vastly* better for firepower, but comparing 6 Tankbuster to 3 Deffkoptas, which would be in the HOTLY CONTESTED fast Attack slot vs the far more open Elites slot … I think the Koptas stay on the shelf and that's sad as I love the lil guys.
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
I think that relic is pretty much mandatory when you play evil suns now. It's the bone they threw dem red ladz for degrading their trait to blood axe levels of usefulness.
Beardedragon wrote: To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.
Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".
If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).
Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.
I think the rules have always struggled with things that are able to do something due to a rule but suddenly stops being able to do something. As an example, a librarian dred can get fly and thus move up onto a building. What happens if said dread fails to cast wings? Meaning he can't be on said upper floor, can't move off said upper floor, just exists in an odd rule limbo?
In the same way, tellyported units count as moving that turn, a fortification generally can't move. But the rule only really occurs when the unit is on the table, not off it/before being deployed. Mebbie it'll get FAQed, until then Imma say yes, Tellyport the buildings. If feels exceptionally orky to have bunkers appear in a flash of lightning, or be used like shoddily constructed droppods. Worth having 3 drop down all at once in front of the enemy? Zog if I know but I wanna do it!
To me the big ead' bunker feels more like a drop pod really
Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
Jidmah wrote: Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
its good from a gameplay point of view. But i feel like they should have been larger. they seem way too small to me. I even made a facebook post about it lol.
But yea from a gameplay point of view its super. dont look very intimidating though
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
I think that relic is pretty much mandatory when you play evil suns now. It's the bone they threw dem red ladz for degrading their trait to blood axe levels of usefulness.
I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.
Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.
Actualy, when I see the mess, I' m happy that I stick with the old dex due tournaments in next few weeks…
Anyway, I ' ve found few small changes not mentioned already
1. MSJ has finaly the wording, saying just one twin big shoota has +1 to hit due grot. This is good.
2. Grot oilers are no more counted as MODEL. Just mandatory indicator. So no more “Grot oiler shield”. Ammo runts also disappeared.
3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew? Never called a UNIT before, UNIT is the whole pack mek gun + crew) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.
Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.
koooaei wrote: I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.
Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.
Oh, don't get me wrong - in 8th all they had was Snikrot, full stop. In actual games, picking blood axes was the same as just not having a culture. Now they have snikrot who now buffs the vastly improved new kommandoz, a good relic, good warlord trait and a great stratagem. With such a line-up having an extremely situational trait is not a problem, and they are on par with most clans now.
The trait is completely worthless for buggies though. If you fall back, you can only shoot or charge. If you stay put, you get to shoot AND fight, and you get to chose one buggy to fight before your opponent. Outside of edge cases, even the scrapjet with all its blast weapons usually is better off shooting big shootas and using the drill than falling back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: 3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew?) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.
Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.
Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.
While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear.
That said, I totally want to run a unit of 3 bubblechukkas now to bring back SSAG levels of randomness
G00fySmiley wrote: so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex
dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.
I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?
not a fan myself but did you use the more dakka kustom job ? or fly boys specialist mob ?
the more dakka give you an average of 5 extra shots and fly boyz means you should not take trukk boyz, which is absurd. I will try the DJ a bit more, but is underwhelming at best.
You cant use the KMBlasta kustom job on a grot mega tank (only on MEKS), can people please stop talking about 7d3 + 7 kmb shots ? It will only create confusion for those who don’t have the codex yet, and perhaps fool some into buying one (though it is a good unit anyway, won’t be the worst investment )
Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.
While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear……
Oups. Ok.
Anyway - another issue - Traktor Kannon rule says “add +2 to hit roll” vs. Core Rules “a hit roll can never be modified more than +/-1”
That was the reason why they changed the SJD and Kannonwagon etc. rules from “add +2” to “have BS 3+” etc.
Well, do you remeber in the past releasing codex in some limited box and than make a normal release couple of months after? I don' t want to discuss GW business, just one thread-related idea cross my mind - from when can we play the new codex on tournaments?
Because I also publish books. I know how long what takes etc.
Books are printed in a single wave. You set up the machine and run it. Most of the costs is setting the machine up. So there are two options
1. All codexes are printed blocking the storage space and waiting for something. I don' t know, until Kill Rigs are produced or whatever. This option means, that all the bugs we discussing here comes in the codex anyway and in the same time, we recieve a masive FAQ based on our emails about them. This mean, we can expect codex anytime August 15th+ This is good.
2. Codex writing crew missed the deadline. So they printed just a limited amount of snaga beast codexes knowing it' s full of bugs, but limited version so who cares and in the meantime they are working on ork codex 9.1 that went to print few months later. Maybe not in print yet. And print takes just a month. This option has 2 consequences:
- regular codex comes in October without the major bugsso we gonna play old dex on tournaments until october
- snaga box codex will be like Blue Mauricius - it will have a value for collectors This is even better. Because my old codex army is finaly full painted and I want to enjoy it
I think it's more likely the main codex print run got delayed due to shipping issues or something.
And/or they've always intended to do this staged release, it encourages people to buy Beast Snaggaz so that they can get their rules early.
They've done it before, such as the Heavy Intercessors staggered release.
That was the reason why they changed the SJD and Kannonwagon etc. rules from “add +2” to “have BS 3+” etc.
It's +2 to hit vs aircraft which all come with a natural -1 to hit, and modifiers are cumulative so the mek gunz actually gets +1 to hit in total. No mistakes here, the traktor hits on 3s against flyers.
koooaei wrote: I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.
Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.
Oh, don't get me wrong - in 8th all they had was Snikrot, full stop. In actual games, picking blood axes was the same as just not having a culture. Now they have snikrot who now buffs the vastly improved new kommandoz, a good relic, good warlord trait and a great stratagem. With such a line-up having an extremely situational trait is not a problem, and they are on par with most clans now.
The trait is completely worthless for buggies though. If you fall back, you can only shoot or charge. If you stay put, you get to shoot AND fight, and you get to chose one buggy to fight before your opponent. Outside of edge cases, even the scrapjet with all its blast weapons usually is better off shooting big shootas and using the drill than falling back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: 3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew?) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.
Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.
Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.
While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear.
That said, I totally want to run a unit of 3 bubblechukkas now to bring back SSAG levels of randomness
The thing is that in most situations you have to fall back to either not loose a unit or allow the rest of the army to shoot at what's been locking you down. My concern is with the t1 charges that are not so rare anymore. I've been using this tactics too often to undervalue the fall back and shoot blood axes can provide for screening buggies. It's much more important in this matchups than extra shooting that freebootas might provide otherwise. Besides, with how freebootas work, you might not loose anything at all - only gain. As you still have to kill something first. And there's a number of armies on top tables that are very hard to get that kill out from. You might waste 1k worth of shooting to kill those 3 custodians with -1 to hit and 1+ or even 0+ in cover.
Honestly, neither in 8th nor in 9th have I once been in a situation where I wanted to fall back from a unit that would kill a buggy otherwise. Either they get killed in the turn they are charged or the unit struggle to do damage to them.
Even if you do get charged T1 and survive, just shooting the unit while you are in combat and hindering their movement is superior to falling back.
I can see the scenarios happening that you are describing, not usually less than once per game - at which point it's not really worth considering for your strategy, similar to a very narrow stratagem.
Beardedragon wrote: well. At least the scrapjets wont be firing their rokkits in CC anymore, as they are blast.
They were already blast before. In combat you still have the nose drill and you get to shoot your big shootas and wing missle, so you are essentially trading 4 WS 4+ attacks with d3 damage for 3d3 BS5+ attacks with 3 damage. So while there is a slight improvement, I'd wager that any clan traits with a damage buff will be better than that.
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
Beardedragon wrote: well. At least the scrapjets wont be firing their rokkits in CC anymore, as they are blast.
They were already blast before. In combat you still have the nose drill and you get to shoot your big shootas and wing missle, so you are essentially trading 4 WS 4+ attacks with d3 damage for 3d3 BS5+ attacks with 3 damage. So while there is a slight improvement, I'd wager that any clan traits with a damage buff will be better than that.
Wakshaani wrote: Fight last is *crushingly* scary for Orks, yeah. One reason I'm looking again at shoota boys. The trick, I think, is to not think of them as a "Sit n Shoot", rather a good wave of plinking to soften the enemy up before a charge, getting 100% use out of 'em.
Choppa boys get one token pistol shot, then +1 atack at -1AP.
Shootaboys get 3 shots, then the normal level of melee swings after that. Are 3 shoota shots the same as +1 swing with -1 AP? *Maybe*. I think that the math is just *barely* in favor of the choppas, but with so many "Fight last" powers out there, it might be better to keep the lads back a bit until the enemy's not quite so mobbed-up.
Lots of math going on right now. Kans are looking *shockingly* good investments, even better than bikes if you can believe that, but only in small squads. (3 looks best, 5 at the largest) … at 8 pts per wound for a T5, Ramshackle, 3+ unit, they have the chubbiness that you need to outlast some units. They'll fall down and die against power fists of course, but against normal troopers, or their powersword-armed cousins, they can really go. Morale's an issue so you can't go *big*, but a trio's roughly the same cost as 10 boys with a big shoota and big choppa or five intercessors with a power fist while being more durable than either (and having better firepower than the marines, too.)
Meganobs lacking Invulnerables is going to get them splattered everywhere that you want to use them, but Nobs? Same cost as two boys, same number of wounds, but a 4+ save instead of a 6+ means that they're a better investment but with a tad less killpower.
Bikes are also there, at 8.33 pints per wound, the same T5, and 4+ save, but also -1 to-be hit, which is huge in terms of durability.
At 12.5 pts a wound, I'm not sold on Deffkoptas yet. There badly needed to be a verion for 40 pts that carried twin Big Shootas instead of Rokkits. That would have gotten the cost-per-wound down and given them a few other options. Yes, the rokkits are *vastly* better for firepower, but comparing 6 Tankbuster to 3 Deffkoptas, which would be in the HOTLY CONTESTED fast Attack slot vs the far more open Elites slot … I think the Koptas stay on the shelf and that's sad as I love the lil guys.
Still a lot of math to do.
Shoota boyz in Dakka range (Won't happen often) average 1 hit per model, that works out to 0.5 wounds and against a Marine save 0.166dmg. When they get into CC they have 2 attacks for 1.33 hits, 0.66 wounds and against a Marine that is 0.22dmg. The choppa boyz suck at ranged combat, but inside the same dakka range average 0.33 hits, 0.17ish wounds and 0.06 dmg In CC however they get 3 attacks, 2 hits , 1 wound and 0.5dmg. Not to mention there are a lot more +1 to hit in CC rules than +1 to hit at range. Choppa boyz are significantly better.
Kanz are DOA for me. Lack of access to kulture yet again means that they are always going to play second fiddle to a host of regular Ork models. Deffkoptas are 5ppm cheaper when armed with 2x the rokkitz, they are significantly faster and benefit from kultures. its not even a contest honestly. The only reason to include kanz at all is the fact that our Heavy Support choices are somewhat crap...except for the new Rigs.
Vineheart01 wrote: Grot Tanks arent overpowered, theyre more just good enough to actually be able to use now (clealry better options)
The Grot Mega Tank is 160pts for 7d3 KMB shots hitting on 4s, and if they dont fix that kustom job its 7D3+7 kmb shots for 170pts.
That is a LOT of S8 Ap3 D6 damage. Even if odds are it will nuke its own brains out (note that they 'fixed' kmb guys it can cause multiple mortals with the same gun now). Grot Mega Tanks arent exactly super tanky but theyre tanky enough where something more expensive than them is going to be invested to get rid of it.
That amount of firepower will reliably delete just about anything w/o a 4++ - it will probably die either in the process or shortly after, but given its cost...thats fine
Adding to my first post. 160pts gets you 7D3 KMBs hitting on 4s Vs 3 Deff Koptas which get Kulture which get you 6 D3 Rokkitz. I'll take the Koptas, especially since they will have easy access to -1 to hit.
I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?
I think you are actually right about the Dakkajet. Sadly I think its dmg output is over stated. I personally think Lootas are in a bad place for dmg output and point for point they out perform the dakkajet. The only upside is that its -1 to hit which is nice. But you would get more benefit out of taking 5 warbikers, who without being in Dakkarange get you 30 shots and 10 hits at a lesser profile but in dakkarange go to 50 shots and during a speed Waaagh get 60 at -1AP compared to the DJ getting 42 at -2AP. I sadly think they need to increase the Dakkajets number of shots, give it D2 or make it even cheaper, about 80pts base so with the 2 extra gunz it would be 100pts.
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
Yea, my sunz list is:
Patrol with the warlord Deffkilla Trike (Fasta than Yous trait+Redder Armor)
Outrider with a Warboss on Bike (Killa Klaw+Brutal but Kunnin)
If something needs killed and the deffkilla doesnt have the teef to do it, the murderboss goes in with him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, since the mega Grot tank is decent, what about the small ones.
45 pts for a Rockit or KMB seems not really bad.
not bad IMO but categorically outperformed by Deffkoptas.
I like the dakkajet but I like the blitza-bommer more for a vehicle-focused list.
Doesn't eat up any slots (kind of a key feature for us tbh), drops half of a Flying 'Eadbutt without killing itself, and then does it again a second time if it is allowed to survive, and strategically it gives you an ideal piece for a vehicle-focused list: A temptation for your opponent to avoid attacking lynchpin models in your list.
Did you bring a Morkanaut as your KFF-granter and pop the 5++ after losing first turn?
Did you bring Trukk Boyz squads that are going to dump and charge if their transport isn't killed?
Did you bring a glass cannon GMT or Deffcoptas with low defense and high offense?
Then your opponent still has to consider if they want to attack those or if they have to make sure that super obnoxious to kill plane doesn't dump a bucket of mortal wounds on their army.
The dakkajet is in no way a pressure piece. It presents my opponent with no tough choices - it will never, ever, ever, ever be targeted by a competent enemy who can instead target units that exert board control and have melee threat spikes. The blitza is absolutely bringing that to the table, it takes everything that's awesome about the drukhari voidraven bomber and it gives you a SECOND bomb as a bonus just to punish your opponent for not targeting it and to make it still a big threat piece if you get the first turn and strips something like 70pts off the price tag.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's what I'm considering for a dread waagh list:
Goffs Patrol
HQ: Mek Boss Buzzgob 100pts
HQ: Warboss on Warbike 115pts (Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin', Relic: Da Killa Klaw)
Heavy Support: 3x Deff Dreads 255pts (All Klawz)
Heavy Support: 3x Deff Dreads 305pts (All Klawz, 1 all KMBs with extra kustom KJ)
Heavy Support: 6x Killa Kanz 285pts (3x with rokkits, 3x with big shootas)
Flyer: Blitza-Bommer 150pts
Fortification: Mekboy Workshop 70pts
Super Heavy Auxiliary Goffs
Morkanaut with Kustom Force Field 380pts (Big Krumpas if Specialist Mobz get faqed to not remove clan)
Mekboy Workshop deploys farther up the battlefield to repair and distribute free kustom jobs, Morkanaut goes in the middle ready to grant 5++ if I lose first turn, blitza is there to draw attention away from the Morka and Killa Kanz early. I'm 50-50 on the trukk boyz, the rest of the list is a turn 2 tempo and that's probably when I'm popping the waaagh, so i might just leave them as Goffs. Damn do I wish Killa Kanz could be boom boys.
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
Nob on smasha squig.
How do you take an extra one without taking up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
Nob on smasha squig.
How do you take an extra one without takung up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?
It's part of the rules on his datasheet, if you have squighog boyz in your detachment already you can take up to two units of them without them taking up a slot.
That was the reason why they changed the SJD and Kannonwagon etc. rules from “add +2” to “have BS 3+” etc.
It's +2 to hit vs aircraft which all come with a natural -1 to hit, and modifiers are cumulative so the mek gunz actually gets +1 to hit in total. No mistakes here, the traktor hits on 3s against flyers.
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.
What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
Nob on smasha squig.
How do you take an extra one without takung up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?
It's part of the rules on his datasheet, if you have squighog boyz in your detachment already you can take up to two units of them without them taking up a slot.
Jidmah wrote:
pepi55 wrote: How do you take an extra one without takung up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?
Probably, it's on the squigriders - if you bring a unit, you can have two of the nobz on smasha squigs without taking up a slot.
I should have known its a unit special rule... I was searching the snagga klan trait for some text regarding that. So this means that you can take 2 squighogs units in a patrol with 6(!?) extra nobs.
for 540 points you can amass quite a menace in a snagga patrol.
koooaei wrote: Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.
You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.
Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.
I think that relic is pretty much mandatory when you play evil suns now. It's the bone they threw dem red ladz for degrading their trait to blood axe levels of usefulness.
It's sort of funny, because I think in spite of the culture nerf, Evil Suns are going to be one of the competitive cultures, if not top tier.
1) Only source of Ork fight last? Check.
2) Can help units advance and charge outside of the Waaaagh? Check.
3) Movement tricks (Fire and Fade)? Check.
4) Movement is now even more important, given we can't advance and charge anymore? Check-a-roony.
People bearish on suns are crazy. If you can win your games via just blunt force charge rushing (Goff aggro)., you were going to win anyway. In tight games, kunnin' is what will make up the difference.
The most frustrating thing about this codex, though is your Warlord detachment *not* being able to be an outrider detatchment. I want FA slots, IDGAF about elites GW.
Kebabcito wrote: Seems like you dont like much dakkajets. I think they are a super strong answer against drukhari, admech and sisters.
Against custodes and DG, we just rush then with those overpowered tomatoes
yea, I don't think theyre awful I just don't tend to love flyers in general. I don't think 'infinite mobility' really means much on the 9th ed micro-board and I don't like units that don't help me win the game. The blitza does something unique, the main thing the dakkajet brings to the table is just 'has strength 6 instead of strength 5'. Which is, admittedly, a pretty great thing against both drukhari and admech.
Personally I think I kind of like Kustom Boosta-Blastas against both drukhari and admech stuff. Rivet Cannon puts nearly as much autocannon-profile fire out as a min squad of lootas, combination with the burna exhausts makes it good vs admech T3 stuff as well as their T6 chickens and the fact that it drops 4d6 S4 autohits basically makes charging it with any glass cannon drukhari unit suicide. I think people are sleeping on that thing because the squigbuggy being decent is such a funny novelty and everybody already owns scrapjets.
I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
SemperMortis wrote: I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
SemperMortis wrote: I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
Yeah, this is basically the new incarnation of the old 8th ed style Evil Sunz Green Tide Da Jump alpha strike that we used to do when our last Ork codex was first released. Then you had a unit in a tellyporta followed up by a second unit Da Jumping T2. Interesting how its Kommandos and Goffs taking that role now, though I guess its fluffier in a sense that Goffs are doing this rather than Evil Sunz.
Plop them into Cover and get +2 from the cover, So its either -1 to hit and 4+ or if you are in +1 cover it becomes +3. Suddenly you have either a hard to hit 4+ in cover or a 10ppm 3+ save model with T5. That is going to EAT the enemy firepower.
SemperMortis wrote: I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
And what if you go 2d
If you go second all the kommandos are 3+sv in cover XD
And you HAVE to focus on the kommandos because they will be right in your face turn 1 or turn 2, and if you are wasting shots killing 10ppm T5 4+ save Kommandos, than those expensive (in comparison) Beasthog boyz are going to be unmolested coming in behind.
SemperMortis wrote: I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
It's ok till you face a competitive drukhari and you get disactivated or you face AdMech and his vanguards can activate his autohits into all your army.
I'm betting for a hibrid army for 9th. With some melee punchy front with squiggboss, squighogs, killrig and smashasquig with aura relic and then some bad moons buggies and stuff.
You get charged and killed. And 3+ is not so good when you're 9" Away from the enemy. He gets to shoot everything he has and than charge with the most convenient units up there. And you're 6+ in mellee. So, around 500 pt wasted. If only blood axe redeployment worked after you know who goes 1st, they'd be a must take in any list. But as is, it's just a 50/50 gamble.
Kebabcito wrote: Seems like you dont like much dakkajets. I think they are a super strong answer against drukhari, admech and sisters.
Against custodes and DG, we just rush then with those overpowered tomatoes
yea, I don't think theyre awful I just don't tend to love flyers in general. I don't think 'infinite mobility' really means much on the 9th ed micro-board and I don't like units that don't help me win the game. The blitza does something unique, the main thing the dakkajet brings to the table is just 'has strength 6 instead of strength 5'. Which is, admittedly, a pretty great thing against both drukhari and admech.
Personally I think I kind of like Kustom Boosta-Blastas against both drukhari and admech stuff. Rivet Cannon puts nearly as much autocannon-profile fire out as a min squad of lootas, combination with the burna exhausts makes it good vs admech T3 stuff as well as their T6 chickens and the fact that it drops 4d6 S4 autohits basically makes charging it with any glass cannon drukhari unit suicide. I think people are sleeping on that thing because the squigbuggy being decent is such a funny novelty and everybody already owns scrapjets.
I am going to reiterate that if Boosta-blastas get errata'd for Pyromaniacs like they seem they were supposed to, a unit of 2 is going to be staple in any list running Speedwaaagh. 24-48 S4 ap-1 hits, and if you didn't have to advance to get in range you get those rivet kannon shots in Dakka range as well.
I dont understand why people say Killa Kanz are dead on arrival. And i dont think Killa Kanz necessarily serve the same purpose as deffkoptas either. Deffkoptas are mobile shooting platforms where Killa Kanz are closer to customizable brawlers.
Deffkoptas shoots 2D3 rokkits but hits on 5s, they are a hit and run unit, able to give you engage on all fronts and all, and can deal with lighter infantry with their melee profiles. I agree that Deffkoptas are very good.
But Killa Kanz being trampled up the field as "light" heavy support with the weakest ranged weapons for 35 points still nets you a vehicle with ramshackle that hits with strength 8. If you slam these inside of a tellyporta you can easily slam D3 rokkits on all of them and Ramming speed them in to the enemy line. If you get all 6 in to close combat you will have 4 attacks each hitting on 4s with strength 8, thats around an average of 12 hits, after you have shot your rokkits, if my math hasnt completely failed me.
If you kit Killa Kanz with rokkits they better suited to dealing with heavy stuff as they can engage them both in CC and at range. Furthermore, they are a tad more duable, having ramshackle and 1 more wound, they even rock the same leadership as deffkoptas.
I agree that deffkoptas seem like the over all better choice but i think i can find uses for Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz not receiving kulture is kind of stupid all things considering and deffkoptas has a lot going for them. Having 6 killa kanz with rokkits and klaws in your backline however seem like a larger problem than 6 deffkoptas in your backline though. Id be more afraid of the killa kanz i think.
Strength 6 is great against Death Guard and in the Ork mirror too, and Autocannons are terrible in those match ups. Neg 1 AP isn't great, but I think number of shots makes up for it. It's decent into Raiders as well (in as much as anything is) and mass strength 6 neg 1 is good into Custodes too.
The Dakkajet is just really flexible due to the weapon profile - it's basically good into most things and great into some things.
I understand not wanting aircraft though and that's fair, but I think it offers enough firepower to feel absolutely fine about having one on the board. There's also the fact that you can't hide it and your opponent will definitely try to shoot it out of the sky, so it basically has a 1CP tax to go with it.
I personally would favour the Burna bomba over the blitza one.-
150 pts, grants you the less effective bombs, 2 supa shootas ,scorcha missile racks, and a twin big shoota with bs 4+ thats no matter how you slice it, a lot of dakka
If one were to run freeboota that might hurt quite a bit
Never forget that Speedwaaagh grants an additional AP-1 bonus to all weapons on vehicles for two turns. So it's actually AP-2 for the most important part of the game.
pepi55 wrote: How do you take an extra one without takung up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?
Probably, it's on the squigriders - if you bring a unit, you can have two of the nobz on smasha squigs without taking up a slot.
Yes, and you can Offer 6 points of assassinate to your opponent. Sadly, until secondaries are changed, nob on sguig is not a good option at all. With our melee characters we already lean towards assassinate, but the 1 per detachment warboss helps us with that. Nob on sguig feths that balance up
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: I've changed opinions on what is going to be competitive. I'm now in the camp of the regular WAAAAGH and Kommando Spam with Squighog boyz coming in behind with nob squigz and Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
In a Goff Detachment a unit of 15 Kommandos STARTS turn 1 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They than get to move 6' So they are 3' from the deployment zone and relatively close to the enemy. On the charge each boy gets 3 attacks hitting on 3s at S5 AP-1. Every hit roll of 6 is another hit. So 14 of them (excluding nob) is 42 attacks, 35 hits and against Space Marines that is 23.3 wounds for 11-12 dmg. Or 5-6 dead Marines ON AVERAGE. And that is without calling a WAAAAGH. Throw in a Distraction grot and a bomb squig for 15 more points and you get a 12' mortal wound bomb in the shooting phase and a guaranteed "Throat Slittas" in your first turn which means you would be wounding T4 and below on 2s. So it works out to 14.5 dmg or 7 dead Marines! Not that you would run into that many Marines mind you but its still a crazy amount, and the best part? Your Nob with a 5pt Powerklaw hasn't even swung yet!
Yep, I'm going hard into Kommandos, 3 full mobz of 15 with Bomb Squig, PK and Distraction grot is 170pts and has an almost guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Follow that with a Turn 2 Beta strike of Squighog boyz, nobz on smash squigs and Beastbosses on squigosaurz and its a bit of a mess.
Where I play what you are saying has been the general consensus (a group of like 10 regular tournament players) for 6 days now you might be on to something!
koooaei wrote: You get charged and killed. And 3+ is not so good when you're 9" Away from the enemy. He gets to shoot everything he has and than charge with the most convenient units up there. And you're 6+ in mellee. So, around 500 pt wasted. If only blood axe redeployment worked after you know who goes 1st, they'd be a must take in any list. But as is, it's just a 50/50 gamble.
There is always that fear, but common sense during deployment works as well, don't deploy them directly infront of massive CC threats . And honestly, if my opponent is putting shots in my Kommandos, i'm fine with that. To kill a Kommando in cover it takes 13.5 bolter shots (13.5 shots = 9 hits, = 3 wounds = 1 failed save, 1 dead Kommando) And to get 13.5 bolter shots requires 7 Marine infantry. If he wants to upgrade to Heavy Bolters it takes 6 shots or 2 Heavy bolters to kill 1 Kommando. And if he goes heavier than that with melta or something...that is just a straight up win in my book. 3+ save orkz are something to be absolutely terrified of with their T5 and 10ppm cost
pepi55 wrote: yeah youre right we better not bring any characters at all.
while were at it, we can leave the troops at home as well since we'll be giving up free points for thin their ranks.
Also never bring any big units lest the enemy scores bring it down
Melee fragile characters are an issue if you want to win games. Bring them dozen doesn’t give many points, one for each buggy, two for a kill rig. The nob on sguig gives three vp. Do you see the issue here ? being sarcastic is great, but there is a real issue, at least if you consider any sort of remotely competitive play…
TedNugent wrote: I don't really see the appeal of the nob on squig personally.
You can nearly get 3 squig riders instead.
Take one unit of Squig Riders and you can get three Nob Riders without giving up slots in your detachment. Add to that the character protection, the boosted statline, the ability to take traits and relics, all topped off with the mortal wounds on charge, and you get scary. Three of 'em is, what, 195 pts, and if they charge the same target they average 7 mortal wounds *in the movement phase* before even swinging into combat.
That's a lot of output for the investment.
They don't fit my style, but for a competitive player? That's hot.
i dont think you'd want 3 nobs on squigs (note you need 2 squigboyz for 3 slotless nobz)
Theyre expensive enough to drain a lot of points and you cant give them all a relic/trait.
Also, their main strength is hammering a character to death or finishing off a vehicle. Truth thats more likely when 3 of them charge the same target, have fun landing that since their bases are fairly wide and you probably have a long enough charge taht one of them fails on average, if not 2
go!"
and 27 T5 3W 4+ save models with -1 to hit seem relatively durable to me. To kill them with S4 bolters requires 36 Bolter shots, Against Heavy Bolters its a lot less but still a respectable 12 shots. So to kill 4 of them to get a 50/50 chance of morale failure is going to cost 144 Bolter shots or 48 Heavy Bolter shots.
post edited to be ok
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at 125 points
