Bothers me that we roll an extra hit anyway. Theres...i think 1 other army that actually has to roll the hit (one of the chaos) everybody else just gets it automatically,including the guys that have high odds for it to hit anyway.
Would also alleviate the issue of rolling a KMB, rerolling it into a 6, rolling a 1 with the extra die so you nuked yourself anyway lol
Jidmah wrote: Buzzgob never had a KFF and probably never will. He just has the a rule that requires a wargear item he can‘t take.
While I agree his model isn’t equipped with one... his data sheet is exactly the same as the big Mek with kff datasheet from saga of the beast...
neither of them list kff as either an equipped item or as wargear and both of them have the kff listed as an ability...
If your claiming buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff because his ability can’t equip a kff as wargear then ironically the big Mek with kff can’t equip one either... I guess we will see what happens in the new fw codex.
We're still in a weird spot not knowing if the datasheet for the standard footmek is going to retain 5++ in combat.
Unless Buzzgob's datasheet explicitly says a 5++ invuln a la the Big Mek datasheet, the Big Mek's KFF is still technically better.
There was a new faq changing the kff ability on the big Mek with kff to be worded exactly the same as the other ork kff descriptions Including buzzgrob. So shooting only...
thats...literally how it is... Buzzgob is worded "a unit with this wargear..." and he doesnt have the KFF so he doesnt actually have the aura. KFF Mek does not mention wargear. At all. Thus, he does not need the wargear. Even in the post-faq version, it does not mention wargear requirement.
Not all rules in this edition have the same exact wording when using the same name. Theres several of them that have the same name, different effect (Explodes, Admech repair)
Is it stupid? Yes. Are they going to fix it? Buzzgob has had that same exact issue the entirety of 8th and they havnt fixed him. So i highly, highly doubt they'll fix it at this point unless they actually notice it when redoing his datasheet in the new book.
gungo wrote: While I agree his model isn’t equipped with one... his data sheet is exactly the same as the big Mek with kff datasheet from saga of the beast...
neither of them list kff as either an equipped item or as wargear and both of them have the kff listed as an ability...
If your claiming buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff because his ability can’t equip a kff as wargear then ironically the big Mek with kff can’t equip one either... I guess we will see what happens in the new fw codex.
Sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. They do not have the same wording, Buzzgob's wording matches the one found on all the codex KFFs which start with "If this model is equipped with a kustom force field, " - most likely because some lazy GW employee just copy&pasted the big mek's datasheet into the index. SotB has no such clause, it's a completely different rule:
SotB FAQ wrote:‘Kustom Force Field: Friendly Ork units have a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged attacks whilst they are wholly within 9" of this model. While this model is embarked, the model transporting it has a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged attacks.’
I do not need to "claim" anything, rules are 100% clear, with absolutely no room for interpretation.
I managed to snipe 2 Battlewagons on ebay,how are they for objective blocking with their squad? I'd imagine a T8 Wagon + some meganobz (or maybe even a big-ish squad of nobz) would last some time, bad idea?
Amorphium wrote: I managed to snipe 2 Battlewagons on ebay,how are they for objective blocking with their squad? I'd imagine a T8 Wagon + some meganobz (or maybe even a big-ish squad of nobz) would last some time, bad idea?
A Deathskulls battlewagon full of boys and MANz is going to be the go-to for taking objectives for a fair while in my opinion. Between killing the wagon, grinding through the MANz (who are scoring) and THEN the boys you can take an obnoxious amount of resources from your opponent either by bogging it down, diverting it from elsewhere or simply by killing it.
How are the Megadreads looking at the moment. They look like they have some viability run in an Goff list with megacharga, possible first turn charges. I know they dont benefit that much from strats. I also have a Supakannon which i think is powerful but seems really overpriced currently. Wasnt GW promising to update all Forgeworld stuff, what happened?
Amorphium wrote: I managed to snipe 2 Battlewagons on ebay,how are they for objective blocking with their squad? I'd imagine a T8 Wagon + some meganobz (or maybe even a big-ish squad of nobz) would last some time, bad idea?
A deffrolla battlewagon with forktress or a gunwagon with da boomer a both fairly decent additions to any mech army.
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Elfric wrote: How are the Megadreads looking at the moment. They look like they have some viability run in an Goff list with megacharga, possible first turn charges. I know they dont benefit that much from strats. I also have a Supakannon which i think is powerful but seems really overpriced currently. Wasnt GW promising to update all Forgeworld stuff, what happened?
Same as in 8th, the Megadread is a cheaper, though inferior version of the morkanaut. The best use for it would probably be providing an army with a KFF.
Boyz are perfectly fine with 6++. Generally speaking units with lots of single wounds will benefit from a 6++, while bigger models may not be lucky as just a few shots that to go through saves could wrecked them. That's why KFF (or Forktress kustom job) for vehicles is good, also for DS.
Elfric wrote: I think a Flashgitz mono list has massive potential now
Yeah, waiting to see exactly how MSU the meta is going to be. Even though the loss of dreadmob hurts the list I used you could still cause some chaos with a few of the better Kustom jobs.
Jidmah wrote: Definitely big zappas. The supa lobba is a decent gun, but you save 50 points by not taking them, and the zappa is by no means a terrible weapon.
I'm actually super interested in fielding one so I'll say if I have good results.
I'm not entirely sure. I think there's a big argument either way. The Supa Lobba provides indirect fire, and quite a lot of it... even if it does nothing, it psychologically messes with your opponent. That stuff behind terrain turn 1 is *not* safe.
I will say, though, the Big Zzappa version actually went *down* 16 points from 8th -> 9th (supa lobba version only went up 14). The Garg Squiggoth with its improved Howdah rule is looking really interesting.
The next question is: What do you put inside? I hate Lootas, but oddly, I think they might be amazing in one of these bad boys. If it can last 3-4 turns, the Lootas might actually make their points back. Similar with Flash gits, but 32 points a model is a tough pill to swallow.
Edit: I've also realized that Titan Slayer AND Bring it down are in the same category. Meaning, a mech list with a Garg, it dies and only gives up a whopping 3 VP.
Got my first game ever tomorrow with orks at 1500 points. Just a practice game and am basically running units that I've painted and think will be cool. Playing Deathwatch so it could get nasty but my list is basically..
Deffskulls
Warboss with biggest boss
Mek kff wartrike
30 Boyz nob pk 20 Boyz nob pk 10 Boyz nob pk
5 nobz
3 meganobz
10 komandos
Shokkjump dragsta
Shokkjump dragsta
10 lootas
...
Normally a marine player but I'm thinking basically push the 2 buy mobs of Boyz forward with the boss and mek. Leave the small mob on an objective and komandos on another objective.
Chuck the buggies and wartrike forward to cause havoc and die while the lootas chill at the back and give it dakka?
Jidmah wrote: Considering how many army lists were are currently discussing in parallel,
please post those lists on the army list forum and link them here
That way each suggestion can get dedicated discussion without making this thread unreadable.
In return, everyone follow those links and respond in the corresponding threads despite all the issues the army forum lists usually has.
There could also be the clutch edge cases where you can shuffle lines of sight as needed. Or help you push screens in the way of assault units. Not going to happen every game, but hey it'll be fun when it does pay off.
So, yesterday I used extra stikk bombs on a gretchin mob that was buffed by da red gobbo (yes, yes, I know) and grenaded a unit of gargoyles out of existence.
If you ever feel like you need 60 S3 shots to take out a horde unit, this stratagem has gotten a lot better now thanks to blast.
Jidmah wrote: So, yesterday I used extra stikk bombs on a gretchin mob that was buffed by da red gobbo (yes, yes, I know) and grenaded a unit of gargoyles out of existence.
If you ever feel like you need 60 S3 shots to take out a horde unit, this stratagem has gotten a lot better now thanks to blast.
Actually, I find myself doing that quite often with a unit of trukk boys. No one is expecting so much dakka out of 10boys.
9d6 s3 and 1d3 s8. Dropped 2/3 of an aggressor unit with a bit of luck before charging in and finishing the last one. The marine player was in shock afterwards.
Ah, right, that way it properly interacts with AP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: First post updated:
+ unit rankings and summaries for 9th
+ subcultures rankings and summaries
+ kustom job summaries
+ completed specialist detachments
- legends units removed
A snazzwagon?
That baffles me more than being the top.
The only thing i could conceivably see a snazzwagon for is since that is a 100% solid vehicle list it was probably his dedicated Action unit, as while it cant shoot it still gets -1 when attacked so its a little tougher to kill than a second KBB.
Ah, right, that way it properly interacts with AP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: First post updated:
+ unit rankings and summaries for 9th
+ subcultures rankings and summaries
+ kustom job summaries
+ completed specialist detachments
- legends units removed
I just read it through, fantastic job man. I have a couple of little nitpicks/differing opinion but they are super minor as I found myself agreeing with basically all of it.
- Calling the KMK a "budget smasha gun" seems odd as it's more expensive. That KMK is upgunned to a fault IMO as it turns it into too much of a glass cannon, although the lower range isn't as much of a negative anymore.
- I'd argue Nob bikers with their modest points increase and access to the "Full speed ladz" strat buffing their big choppas to S8 make them as least as good as normal warbikers and thus yellow.
- I'm sort of wondering if the waaagh banner nob should be yellow as well? He's so darn expensive, doesn't do anything other than his buff and is pretty squishy..
- Same thing with the SAG mek, with no more SSAG, way uphiked points, limited HQ slots & easier character targeting I'm finding a real tough time seeing any truly good reason for taking him. Just bring 3 smashas instead. I'd say yellow here..
PiñaColada wrote: - Calling the KMK a "budget smasha gun" seems odd as it's more expensive. That KMK is upgunned to a fault IMO as it turns it into too much of a glass cannon, although the lower range isn't as much of a negative anymore.
Budget in a way of spending actual money. Six KMK have a similar performance to 12 smashas, but only cost half as much when buying them.
Otherwise, valid points. Especially nob bikers seemed off when I left them in red.
PiñaColada wrote: - Calling the KMK a "budget smasha gun" seems odd as it's more expensive. That KMK is upgunned to a fault IMO as it turns it into too much of a glass cannon, although the lower range isn't as much of a negative anymore.
Budget in a way of spending actual money. Six KMK have a similar performance to 12 smashas, but only cost half as much when buying them.
Otherwise, valid points. Especially nob bikers seemed off when I left them in red.
Ah, that makes sense. Also maybe put all the specialist detachment stuff in a spoiler as it's getting increasingly less relevant but should still be accessible if you want to use it? Just to make post a bit less daunting in size.
Are you planning/want to have a tier list for secondaries as well?
Vineheart01 wrote: A snazzwagon?
That baffles me more than being the top.
The only thing i could conceivably see a snazzwagon for is since that is a 100% solid vehicle list it was probably his dedicated Action unit, as while it cant shoot it still gets -1 when attacked so its a little tougher to kill than a second KBB.
my guess would be he used it to block off / camp on objectives. -1 to hit and that mad max strat allowing the wagon to ignore/negate a wounding hit, makes it annoying to remove. especially since its weapons are only really 'effective' against chaff
1 Power Klaw nob, backed by 9 Sluggaboys and 20 Shootaboys, is 220 pts. Take one of those per 500 pts of game.
Take a KFF Big Mek, who can protect two units who, in turn, keep him safe.
At 2000, that gives you two "horns" that are 60 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable, 6+ Feel No Pain, enough dakka to keep things at arms' length, but enough close combat that you don't want to charge 'em, and use these to take and hold objectives. They're not Spare Marine tough, but you're going to have to *work* to dislodge that many 5++/6+++ wounds, and it still leaves 1120 (minus the two KFF Big Meks) for the killy stuff. Toss a Deff Dread and the Warboss into one, two Deff Dreads into the other, you *still* have a decent number of points for other stuff.
True, the Snakebites aren't the best force around, but just being so darn *stubborn* can get things done, I think.
Still TheoryHammer at this stage since no game store's playing locally due to Covid, but.
I dunno, if you're going to be bubbling up with Ork boyz then why not just take a painboy instead and keep a better clan kultur? Keepin' 60 boyz wholly within a KFF bubble is not fun BTW and will severely hamper movement
wouldnt it just be 'better' to run deathskullz and a painboy instead? thats a 6++, 6+++
it spares you to waste the HQ slots and doesnt mess around with the rest of the army, put in a rokkit and you also got a rerollable anti tank annoyance on top
Vineheart01 wrote: A snazzwagon?
That baffles me more than being the top.
The only thing i could conceivably see a snazzwagon for is since that is a 100% solid vehicle list it was probably his dedicated Action unit, as while it cant shoot it still gets -1 when attacked so its a little tougher to kill than a second KBB.
my guess would be he used it to block off / camp on objectives. -1 to hit and that mad max strat allowing the wagon to ignore/negate a wounding hit, makes it annoying to remove. especially since its weapons are only really 'effective' against chaff
He can heal himself d3 wounds, and everything in the army is basically an 8+ wound vehicle. Unbracketing a bonebreaker or topping off a hurt buggy might make a difference more than a personal FNP or something.
What I'm surprised about is taking that over Gork's roar. That extra range just seems like a game changer. 8" is not great, bob. 12" isn't either, but it helps.
But 10 warbikers and a snazz wagon... what a strange army overall. Hell, I'd rather take 3 KBB if he was using those as screens, unless he literally just wanted like 30 choppa attacks on a counter charge? Heck, just put some stuff IN your bonebreakers. 5-6 nobs is way cheaper with double choppa.
Naah saga faq mentions nothing. No need as saga says it's modifier to roll. I checked that first thing as people incorrectly said it modifies character giving me cold shivers
I have found an interesting use for footnobz as a filler oddly enough.
Nauts have a capacity of 6, and really nothing ever goes in there as not much can even fit and they cant shoot.
If you dont have another buggy to add to a list but have a naut, add 5 nobz. Even with just choppachoppa thats a lot of attacks for cheap that if you cant bring another KBB or MekGunz you might as well toss in there.
Surprised the hell out of my opponent when i did that as he sent cultists to try and tie it up and surprise meatblender pops out lol.
Relatively weak argument for regular nobz but if youre like me and dont have a gakton of mekguns because you refuse to shell out 50USD for ONE MEK GUN its a good option lol. Especially since in this edition so far i keep ending at 1900ish points and trying to figure out what to do with that last ~100, and i ran out of buggies to add.
tulun wrote: He can heal himself d3 wounds, and everything in the army is basically an 8+ wound vehicle. Unbracketing a bonebreaker or topping off a hurt buggy might make a difference more than a personal FNP or something.
What I'm surprised about is taking that over Gork's roar. That extra range just seems like a game changer. 8" is not great, bob. 12" isn't either, but it helps.
It can just take both.
I wouldn't read too much into the specifics of his, keep in mind that many people simply won't attend such events in the current time and that people are still testing the waters around the new missions.
tulun wrote: He can heal himself d3 wounds, and everything in the army is basically an 8+ wound vehicle. Unbracketing a bonebreaker or topping off a hurt buggy might make a difference more than a personal FNP or something.
What I'm surprised about is taking that over Gork's roar. That extra range just seems like a game changer. 8" is not great, bob. 12" isn't either, but it helps.
It can just take both.
I wouldn't read too much into the specifics of his, keep in mind that many people simply won't attend such events in the current time and that people are still testing the waters around the new missions.
Oh yeah I know. I just wonder if he didn’t wanna go below 6 CP.
I agree. I’ll be more convinced with more results. This seems unoptimized and I bet could be improved it holds any weight.
To be fair, a pure vehicle list uses a lot less CP than you'd think. Most of the CP is spent on infantry models, as aside from Ramming Speed or Kustom Jobz there...kinda isnt any that vehicles can even use anyway. 6cp to start isnt too bad in that case. They can use the deathskullz strat iirc, though i generally forget that one even exists.
Vineheart01 wrote: To be fair, a pure vehicle list uses a lot less CP than you'd think.
Most of the CP is spent on infantry models, as aside from Ramming Speed or Kustom Jobz there...kinda isnt any that vehicles can even use anyway.
6cp to start isnt too bad in that case.
They can use the deathskullz strat iirc, though i generally forget that one even exists.
Yeah, I agree. I generally don't mind spending 6-7 CP pre game.
It could be he wanted enough CP to tellyporta one or two units (the bonebreakers?) in a pinch, depending on match up, for some nasty charges with ramming speed.
Wreckers on the Mork seems pretty solid, although none here.
In regards to the snazz wagon and actions, which of these can it perform? I thought it was mostly infantry that do them.
Some you dont need to be an infantry, but i think theyre limited to specific missions. The mission where you can scan objectives for instance doesnt mention it has to be an infantry and the core Action rule does not mention it either. Meanwhile, raising a Banner for example does mention Infantry. The core action rule only excludes Aircrafts from doing it and mentions characters' auras shut down as well.
Theres also simply holding the objective of course.
Naah saga faq mentions nothing. No need as saga says it's modifier to roll. I checked that first thing as people incorrectly said it modifies character giving me cold shivers
I've read through the last few pages and I'm still trying to wrap my head around Ghazghkull Thraka and make my mind up. I want him to be good and Im ready to talk myself into corner that goffs are actually one of the better factions now.
- When he was spoiled in 8th Saga of the Beast he seemed cool, but didn't really play well with what 8th missions or existing Ork army lists were trying to achieve and probably ended up on the expensive side.
- In 9th he seems to play much better to the tempo of the game, everyone is slugging over midfield objectives. The turn limit coming down to 5 should help him reach nigh invincibility status against armies that only fight in one phase with medi painboy support (Tau lol?). Ghaz is also one of better answers to countering some of the deathstar units in 40k, he's one of the few units that can stand his ground against a unit of wulfen/custode allarus/BA honour guard/etc coming straight at him and deliver as much punishment back as he gets. Due to the unfortunate melee fighting in depth nerfs, much fewer Ork boyz can make it into melee engagement. This has had preserve effect of making Goff Skarboyz with Ghaz near by much better that other factions boyz, since very few of them need to make it into melee to ruin someones day.
- With FAQS now dropping stating his aura effects him and he can now advance & charge it seems his main glaring weakness, how to get him into combat, has been partially addressed. It seems plausible therefor you want him in list with
Ghaz
KFF & Painboy support
~ 90 goff boyz/skarboyz.
Obligatory 1 burna bomma found in every Ork list.
The question then becomes what to do about the rest of the list. Clearly it lacks firepower support and backfield objective holders. Smasha guns for days? Some Ork Kommandos to nab objectives?
Has anyone got any experience and games in with Ghaz?
Due to the unfortunate melee fighting in depth nerfs, much fewer Ork boyz can make it into melee engagement. This has had preserve effect of making Goff Skarboyz with Ghaz near by much better that other factions boyz, since very few of them need to make it into melee to ruin someones day.
I've had good results with Deathskullz mobs buffed by Warpath and Maniacal Seizures. Goffs with Ghaz get exploding 6s, +1A, possibly +1S and re-rolling 1s, those Deathskullz get +1A, -1AP, a couple of re-rolls for the nob's Killsaw plus some defensive buffs like the 6++ and possibly -1 to hit from a unit that suffered Maniacal Seizures. Not bad IMHO, considering that the Deathskullz combo is way cheaper than the Goffs one. Sure Ghaz is a monster (litterally, lol) but a Warboss with Killa Klaw and Da Biggest Boss and Mad Dok can wreck stuff as well and they are also 127 points cheaper than the Goffs' leader. Not to mention that Ghaz will likely also have Makari and/or a Painboy with him.
Due to the unfortunate melee fighting in depth nerfs, much fewer Ork boyz can make it into melee engagement. This has had preserve effect of making Goff Skarboyz with Ghaz near by much better that other factions boyz, since very few of them need to make it into melee to ruin someones day.
I've had good results with Deathskullz mobs buffed by Warpath and Maniacal Seizures. Goffs with Ghaz get exploding 6s, +1A, possibly +1S and re-rolling 1s, those Deathskullz get +1A, -1AP, a couple of re-rolls for the nob's Killsaw plus some defensive buffs like the 6++ and possibly -1 to hit from a unit that suffered Maniacal Seizures. Not bad IMHO, considering that the Deathskullz combo is way cheaper than the Goffs one. Sure Ghaz is a monster (litterally, lol) but a Warboss with Killa Klaw and Da Biggest Boss and Mad Dok can wreck stuff as well and they are also 127 points cheaper than the Goffs' leader. Not to mention that Ghaz will likely also have Makari and/or a Painboy with him.
Haven’t you had issue with them just getting shot off the board? Or do you mount them? Because man do boys die fast even with a 5++, 6+++
I actually really like “da fixer upperz” on the wartrike in that winning list. Especially since the wartrike is really a support character with some chaff clearing potential. Having the fixer upperz on him just reinforces the role of keeping him behind the other vehicles to help them get charges.
russellmoo wrote: I actually really like “da fixer upperz” on the wartrike in that winning list. Especially since the wartrike is really a support character with some chaff clearing potential. Having the fixer upperz on him just reinforces the role of keeping him behind the other vehicles to help them get charges.
well thats why i lol'd
mean ol warboss on beefed up bike ...and he is an support char -.-
...'with chaff clearing potential' (good way of telling an ork he's a wimpy git)
Its really a bummer that the biker warboss is locked behind FW.. atleast he's in there at all... RESPECT TOFWTO DROP ZHARDSNARK and replacing him with our regular boss on bike
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cody.d. wrote: I'm surprised he didn't slap the Kustom Job Gorks Roar on there too. Just to let the watrike contribute a little more as he does his thing.
i guess you dont wanna be temped to throw him away... he isnt that durable
PiñaColada wrote: - Calling the KMK a "budget smasha gun" seems odd as it's more expensive. That KMK is upgunned to a fault IMO as it turns it into too much of a glass cannon, although the lower range isn't as much of a negative anymore.
Budget in a way of spending actual money. Six KMK have a similar performance to 12 smashas, but only cost half as much when buying them.
Otherwise, valid points. Especially nob bikers seemed off when I left them in red.
I did some maths on it a while ago and CBF doing it again but I remember coming to the conclusion that you could in fact swap KMK's with smashas (after CA19) and expect the same amount of damage. The Smashas came out ahead for raw defensiveness in wounds however. Back then the smasha was 33 points and the KMK was 60 points so you were . The smasha now costs 40 points and the KMK now costs 65 points. So before you could get 18 smasha guns for approximately the price of 10 KMK's, now its 16 smasha guns for the price of 10 KMK's. So if my memory holds up, that would put KMK's ahead in point efficiency for damage and in IRL costs. Smashas still come ahead for defensiveness, obviously, but some of us have to accept reality when fielding these models.
Not only a good result but also that list looks fun to play! I'm curious about the mix of buggies outside of the scrapjets but I am also suspecting it was due to model limitations.
I'm a bit confused on the note about CP spent on OUTRIDERS, does anyone know what that is? I can't seem to find it in my Codex or Saga of the Beast.
Do you not get the CP back if you have your warlord in an outrider detachment perhaps? If he also won while having 3 CP less than his opponent that means he did pretty well for himself.
Also time costs. It's a lot faster to roll the wound rolls for the KMK than the same number of SG.
Quackzo wrote: Not only a good result but also that list looks fun to play! I'm curious about the mix of buggies outside of the scrapjets but I am also suspecting it was due to model limitations. I'm a bit confused on the note about CP spent on OUTRIDERS, does anyone know what that is? I can't seem to find it in my Codex or Saga of the Beast.
oh nono
he just took an outrider detachment instead of a patrol or bat. I would guess to fit in all the fast attackers and to skimp on the troop tax
EDIT: also funny... he didnt spent any CP on those buggys... i would've expected at least a korkscrew upgrade for one those three sets of jets
Quackzo wrote: Not only a good result but also that list looks fun to play! I'm curious about the mix of buggies outside of the scrapjets but I am also suspecting it was due to model limitations.
I'm a bit confused on the note about CP spent on OUTRIDERS, does anyone know what that is? I can't seem to find it in my Codex or Saga of the Beast.
oh nono
he just took an outrider detachment instead of a patrol or bat. I would guess to fit in all the fast attackers and to skimp on the troop tax
EDIT:
also funny... he didnt spent any CP on those buggys... i would've expected at least a korkscrew upgrade for one those three sets of jets
I completely forgot the name of the detachment whoops. Here I was thinking we had some sleeper stratagem I was unaware of.
Something worth noting on that list is that he doesn't give up any easy secondaries - even if they pick bring it down, the opponent would have to destroy six buggies or three buggies and both bonebreakers to get max points.
That many scrapjets will also do a number on primaris, especially those in gravis armor.
cody.d. wrote: Do you not get the CP back if you have your warlord in an outrider detachment perhaps? If he also won while having 3 CP less than his opponent that means he did pretty well for himself.
Also time costs. It's a lot faster to roll the wound rolls for the KMK than the same number of SG.
Refund is only for patrol, battalion and brigade(or super heavy for knights)
KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.
Tomsug wrote:KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.
I think the 48" matters but I don't think it matters as much as it did in 8th. The diagonal of the table went from 86.5" to 74.4", factor in LoS blocking terrain and we'll probably see that 48" is realistically the furthest we'll need. I think 24"-36" will be more then capable of doing the job now if you take advantage of the LoS blocking terrain.
Jidmah wrote:I think no one would argue that smashas aren't better than KMK. But you won't cripple your army by using KMK instead of smashas.
Yeah this is basically my point with the mathhammer ramble, the numbers dont favour the smasha as much as they used to. Smashas are still probably the most efficient choice but we now can swap them out with KMK's for the real world benefits without shooting ourselves in the foot in game.
Tomsug wrote: KMK has 36” range and SMG 48”. It' s a crucial difference. 48 = you cover most of the table and usually all or majority of objectives, and you have longer range than most of the hummies settings. KMK have to wait until hummies come.
Actually KMK have 39'' range, now they can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue at all, Smasha still have the edge because they're 25ppm cheaper. For a battery of a few mek gunz KMKs can be a legit alternative to Smashas, while a battery of 4-6 models is definitely better if it's full of Smashas as the point cost would be significantly cheaper and with that many mek gunz the ork player would have a lot of firepower anyway.
More LOS blocking and +3 inches are definitely relevant againts importance of 48 range.
Smaller table not so much. Smaller table deletes the difference between 60” of SAG and 48” of SMG. Not 48/36.
SMGs are super cheap, not so easy to kill and bloody dangerous vehicles that have to be killed. So enemy spent T1 killing Cca 40p models under 5++ KFF. It saves the rest of your army.
On other hand, these guns incl grots are pretty big. With a lot of LOS, there would be just a narrow lines of fire. Just a few models will be available to fire, so less amount of better models could be the adventage.
KMK was better before Codex, maybe, we come back to this point again.
I proof it on friday.
Maybe.... the list of “to proof” is so long I need to play 3 days in a row
BtwKMK thanks to the Blast rule are same?, efective vs. 6-10 model units as the SMG. SMG H3 T7,5 AP-4 D6 vs KMK Haprox4? T8 AP-3 D6.
36" is plenty, all it means is you cant hit the back-edge stuff really. And in this edition i dont see those being that common unless theyre hiding behind a wall anyway shooting out of sight.
For a lot of armies, thats the only backfield thing they got that holds objectives without burning a ton of points. So its bound to be forward a bit.
Smashas are still unquestionably better.. There's some small things too.
1) Can more easily split fire / less likely to over kill a unit.
2) 2d3 averages better than 1d6 in terms of minimum and average shots (while being less likely to get max values).
3) Smasha guns ignore transhuman, one of the most broken stratagems in the game
4) Extra pip of AP is enough outright ignore most vehicles armour saves. Lots of vehicles still get some play despite no invul.
5) Basically if it can get shot in LOS, it can shoot back. Less important with smaller board / obscuring, but it'll happen occasionally.
6) The most obvious one (that has been discussed) is just more wounds per output. Mek Guns are not hard to kill, getting more durability per point matters.
It really only loses out to T8 and not by much... 42% wound rate vs 50%. Not a big deal.
Although monetary restrictions are understandable, if you're discussing optimal competitive builds, you sort of have to ignore it.
The KMK is fine on a budget, but honestly, if you can't go the whole nine yards with smashas, just build without them.
KMK is better per point against many vehicles with invul saves - so depending on your meta might be worth it. And if you want the Maximum output from 4 flanking guns, the KMK is obviously the better choice. For a gunline, smashas usually win.
With a list with some freebotaz, you can use the freebotaz stratagem (1D3 points of the map, 1D3 mortal wounds for every 5+) + Boomber bombs (1 mortal wound for every 5+) + Boomber explosión (3 mortal wounds for everyone).
Tomsug wrote: More LOS blocking and +3 inches are definitely relevant againts importance of 48 range.
More LOS blocking? Where? In 8th ed 1st floor of ruins blocked LOS period. Now only in certain cases. It's less LOS blocking than what here has been for 3 years.
Jidmah wrote: Buzzgob never had a KFF and probably never will. He just has the a rule that requires a wargear item he can‘t take.
While I agree his model isn’t equipped with one... his data sheet is exactly the same as the big Mek with kff datasheet from saga of the beast...
neither of them list kff as either an equipped item or as wargear and both of them have the kff listed as an ability...
If your claiming buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff because his ability can’t equip a kff as wargear then ironically the big Mek with kff can’t equip one either... I guess we will see what happens in the new fw codex.
We're still in a weird spot not knowing if the datasheet for the standard footmek is going to retain 5++ in combat.
Unless Buzzgob's datasheet explicitly says a 5++ invuln a la the Big Mek datasheet, the Big Mek's KFF is still technically better.
There was a new faq changing the kff ability on the big Mek with kff to be worded exactly the same as the other ork kff descriptions Including buzzgrob. So shooting only...
He didn't have one in 4th ed either. It's a typo which FW stuff has been plagued with. Jidmah is correct. never had one.
Elfric wrote:How are the Megadreads looking at the moment. They look like they have some viability run in an Goff list with megacharga, possible first turn charges. I know they dont benefit that much from strats. I also have a Supakannon which i think is powerful but seems really overpriced currently. Wasnt GW promising to update all Forgeworld stuff, what happened?
Evil Sunz would be better for that first turn charge. I own two and have tossed around ideas but having both crippled would mean 500 points of useless...
Wakshaani wrote:I'm starting to reconsider the Snakebites. .
I am also considering them, mostly the large of once in a while that Relic being max auto hit shots vs a horde. And the Stubborn.
tulun wrote:
But 10 warbikers and a snazz wagon... what a strange army overall
I've been thinking about this too. Each Warbike slightly worse odds to kill a primaris (just rolling on the desk while music at coffee break, I didn't mathhammer that out).
I've also been debating spamming volume of fire. Locally I'm facing an ad mec player and 36" Big Shootas can do some damage. Klaws for AT. Like it was in 5th ed.
Blackie wrote:
Not to mention that Ghaz will likely also have Makari and/or a Painboy with him.
I keep reading and hearing about a Painboy with Ghaz. how is that working since he isn't infantry?
If you have a painboy of the same klan as ghaz nearby you can use the Medisquig stratagem to heal d3 wounds back on the boss. Due to the wording on that strat you can use it on non-vehicles if I recall.
Jidmah wrote: It actually works on any character, so it can heal the wartrike or a stompa that was made a character as well.
The wartrike one makes sense I suppose. Being it's just 2 lads sitting ontop of a rocket sled they're likely to catch a bullet or two. But the stompa? The more you try to envision it the funnier it gets. Maybe if the stompa is powered by a few orks on a hamster wheel it'd work.
If it was actually being used they would have faq'd it i guarantee you.
But the stompa is so terrible that even allowing it to heal 2d3 each round wouldnt matter.
I guess GW's gotta keep the Primaris gravy train going in the face of COVID. Can't have something as small as a global pandemic stop that from getting that sweet moolah.
Also, it seems like they're revising the older weapons now, since multi-meltas are shown to be revised with better rules and plasma before this only auto-kills on unmodded ones.
This gives me a vague hope that they'll revisit some of the Ork weapons that need touch ups (looking at you big shootas) or are rarely seen (grotzookas, somebody make them usuable again).
Hi
I would appreciate some tips what can be included in a 500p list!
Also, since this is smaller than what is standard, do you have any tips of what can preform better in these kind of game?
It will be played on a 44''x44'' table.
I have thought about a Smasha Mek Gun heavy list in a Grot Mobs...
I mean, with 500 pts it's more a question. Do I want a balanced troop list or do I want to spam something. At that point it's just a case of supporting what you want to spam.
I guess if you want mek gun grot mobs maybe just some supporting chaff grots with your mek Gunz? Maybe a big Mek to perform the odd fixing on any guns with remaining wounds and to fill out your HQ selection? If you have them you could possibly take some grot tanks/Kanz to be your outriders?
I feel that with 500 points it's going to better to leverage having more numbers or mobility than going too heavy on the mek gunz. The main problem is that mek gunz are slow as dirt, and even if you do get proper sights on the enemy, you need numbers to contest objectives. Depending on how dense your terrain is as well, it'll make it very hit or miss, since pretty much almost all the best mek gun weapons are blast so if manage to get in close combat with you, you have a significant amount of your firepower shut down since they can't shoot into melee.
Yeah, smaller games are more mobility than firepower since you have to touch the objectives but still retain them if you move away. This is a rare time when grots are handy, but you can also do well with trukk boys. (two trukks, two 10-boy squads with shootas/big shoota, topped with a Klaw) … you don't even have to get out, just wait for it to blow up, or pour out if you need to melee someone off of a point.take it with sheer ObSec numbers.
The typical 30-boy melee mob is dangerous here, but it's also limited to stomping ONE THING while the rest of the board goes to the other side.
The old rule of 40% of your points should be troops (in this case 200) is still a good guideline. Orks are *super* squishy, so finding workarounds is key.
i need more scrapjets. Only repeat buggy i have atm is KBB's (technically only have 2 of them but i never use the snazz as a snazz so its my "third" lol)
Vineheart01 wrote: i need more scrapjets. Only repeat buggy i have atm is KBB's (technically only have 2 of them but i never use the snazz as a snazz so its my "third" lol)
I have 3.. but yeah, the fact they are all rounders, and aren't afraid to go into CC... I dunno, they might be better than they look on paper.
Couple insights so far:
1) Andy used his war bikers to camp his back field objective. I wonder if Nob bikers might have been better for this.
2) He was HYPER aggressive with his buggies / bonebreakers. Turn 1 charge, full steam ahead. He basically tied them down with buggies while taking the centre objectives. Sounds similar to what boys used to do, except it's murder buggies instead
2) He was HYPER aggressive with his buggies / bonebreakers. Turn 1 charge, full steam ahead. He basically tied them down with buggies while taking the centre objectives. Sounds similar to what boys used to do, except it's murder buggies instead
This sounds amazing, but what if you lose the coin flip? Can you still keep them out of the center if you go second on the smaller boards?
Its similar to what i ran my first 9th game but of course i dont have a gakton of buggies so i filled the gaps with trukkboyz and a mork. Mork isnt as fast but doesnt need to be really. I just T1 zoomed out and said "Board is mine" and my opponent couldnt get me off the objectives fast enough lol. Its hilarious how much firepower a Meganob in cover can eat before a squad of 5 goes down....
Its funny. In previous editions, going first mostly meant getting the better alpha strike because all your guns were still alive. In 9th, its more about being the first to zip across the table and claim everything. So far for me T1's in 9th has been oddly tame barring two super fast units slamming into each other on an objective to duke it out lol. None of my big hitters have been getting shot at right away, its always the buggies and trukks now. Which is hilarious to think that the SparklyMork is being ignored....
Meganobz/10boyz went into Forktress, Nobz went into the Mork because i kinda had nothing else to bring with the few points i had left anyway i had models or slots for, bigmek on foot. I had 8cp left to spend and man vehicles just dont use them lol i may tellyport the Mork next time.
2) He was HYPER aggressive with his buggies / bonebreakers. Turn 1 charge, full steam ahead. He basically tied them down with buggies while taking the centre objectives. Sounds similar to what boys used to do, except it's murder buggies instead
This sounds amazing, but what if you lose the coin flip? Can you still keep them out of the center if you go second on the smaller boards?
It probably depends how fast they are. Not many armies are as fast as M10-14 buggies. Eldar could do it I guess, but we can mess up Wave Serpents in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Haha, so Andy faced off against that Space Wolves list in the GT
He drove around with the Mega Trakks in a "pack". Stuff that could beat him in CC, he just hoped he rolled enough mortal wounds to destroy the unit.
For anyone not aware, Battlescribe has updated. KFF mek has gone up to 75 points, and the weird thing where nobs on boys squads were free, but still added an extra model to the unit has been fixed.
Eh? Adding a nob is still adding a model to me. Im not sure how they could do it otherwise because it has different loadouts than the slug/shoota boy and those are chosen via "How many?" tallies. Which did it replace?
Vineheart01 wrote: Eh? Adding a nob is still adding a model to me. Im not sure how they could do it otherwise because it has different loadouts than the slug/shoota boy and those are chosen via "How many?" tallies. Which did it replace?
Think he means KFF points. RAW it’s 60, RAI it’s 80 seems to be the argument.
It is funny that the buggy list is now getting a ton of attention. I was advocating for this back in the middle of 8th... but I always play mission focused, 9th has just built the game around how I play I guess.
I tend to play casual lists unless I am at a tournament - so hopefully my buggy list doesn't get called out for being a try-hard list now lol. Then again, I bring a real variety - not just the min/max buggies.
Interested to see how the Ork tactics continue to evolve.
Vineheart01 wrote:Eh? Adding a nob is still adding a model to me. Im not sure how they could do it otherwise because it has different loadouts than the slug/shoota boy and those are chosen via "How many?" tallies. Which did it replace?
For me at least, it would add a model to the unit without you paying the cost of any models. So if you had ten boys and added a nob, you would have an eleven strong unit for the cost of ten boys. Now it has been amended so that taking a nob adds a model, being the nob, but costs 8 points as it has added a model. You then just drop a boy to match your unit size of choice. Before you could end up with a perfectly legal unit size of ten models for only 75 points because the nob was free.
tneva82 wrote:Lol so BS went against both RAW and RAI.
I honestly have no idea what is going on for the points for the KFF mek. I'm almost glad to not be running one just to save on the faff
ArmchairArbiter wrote: It is funny that the buggy list is now getting a ton of attention. I was advocating for this back in the middle of 8th... but I always play mission focused, 9th has just built the game around how I play I guess.
I tend to play casual lists unless I am at a tournament - so hopefully my buggy list doesn't get called out for being a try-hard list now lol. Then again, I bring a real variety - not just the min/max buggies.
Interested to see how the Ork tactics continue to evolve.
Honestly, in ITC, this list probably did poorly. This list won't necessarily kill you, but it can make your life miserable trying to hold the mid board.
Because killing is not the focus of the new missions, this style of list will do better.
General question for all -- The guy used the bikers as a backfield objective camper. That seems interesting to me. How many nob bikers do you think would effective? I feel like 10 bikers is overkill.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: It is funny that the buggy list is now getting a ton of attention. I was advocating for this back in the middle of 8th... but I always play mission focused, 9th has just built the game around how I play I guess.
I tend to play casual lists unless I am at a tournament - so hopefully my buggy list doesn't get called out for being a try-hard list now lol. Then again, I bring a real variety - not just the min/max buggies.
Interested to see how the Ork tactics continue to evolve.
Honestly, in ITC, this list probably did poorly. This list won't necessarily kill you, but it can make your life miserable trying to hold the mid board.
Because killing is not the focus of the new missions, this style of list will do better.
General question for all -- The guy used the bikers as a backfield objective camper. That seems interesting to me. How many nob bikers do you think would effective? I feel like 10 bikers is overkill.
I mean, personally I wouldn't want to go over 5, especially for objective campers. Most weapons that have blast would also be exceptionally effective against ork bikers even if they are under a KFF. But 5 of them is still a decent chunk of wounds and toughness for the enemy to chew through.
Vineheart01 wrote: Eh? Adding a nob is still adding a model to me. Im not sure how they could do it otherwise because it has different loadouts than the slug/shoota boy and those are chosen via "How many?" tallies. Which did it replace?
Think he means KFF points. RAW it’s 60, RAI it’s 80 seems to be the argument.
The most recent document, the Saga of the Beast FAQ, lists it as 75. RAW BattleScribe is right.
I mean, personally I wouldn't want to go over 5, especially for objective campers. Most weapons that have blast would also be exceptionally effective against ork bikers even if they are under a KFF. But 5 of them is still a decent chunk of wounds and toughness for the enemy to chew through.
Actually, the goonhammer people had a good point about the bikes too.
"The Bikers I assume are a horde-clearing option – this list feels a little vulnerable to tarpitting if it runs into enemies who are still on a horde plan, so having a unit that can throw down a big volley with More Dakka and plausibly punch up against light vehicles with Wreckers is handy."
The advantage of 10 bikes is 60 shots and they get around 30 attacks each (+1 with the nob) -- you could field 5 nob bikers at 185 (give the boss a Kill saw) and get 21 Str 5 attacks, and 3 Kill saw attacks if you need these guys out in a pinch. Saves 95 points, has 5 less wounds, but these are plenty efficient. Potentially str 6 too with the strat, meaning you might wound a lot of horde stuff on 2s.
I mean, personally I wouldn't want to go over 5, especially for objective campers. Most weapons that have blast would also be exceptionally effective against ork bikers even if they are under a KFF. But 5 of them is still a decent chunk of wounds and toughness for the enemy to chew through.
Actually, the goonhammer people had a good point about the bikes too.
"The Bikers I assume are a horde-clearing option – this list feels a little vulnerable to tarpitting if it runs into enemies who are still on a horde plan, so having a unit that can throw down a big volley with More Dakka and plausibly punch up against light vehicles with Wreckers is handy."
The advantage of 10 bikes is 60 shots and they get around 30 attacks each (+1 with the nob) -- you could field 5 nob bikers at 185 (give the boss a Kill saw) and get 21 Str 5 attacks, and 3 Kill saw attacks if you need these guys out in a pinch. Saves 95 points, has 5 less wounds, but these are plenty efficient. Potentially str 6 too with the strat, meaning you might wound a lot of horde stuff on 2s.
Slapping out more dakka on a big unit of freeboota bikers would be pretty fun in it's own regard. But yeah as with most units, if you plan to use stratagems on them and can protect them bigger is better. But if you want little objective campers perhaps multiple smaller ones would be a safer bet?
As for nob bikers, I'm torn. On one side Meganobs feel cheaper and more durable but bikers can get away with less support due to their speed and dakka gunz. I mean, I have a decent amount of both so perhaps when I can get more games in I can test out both a few times.
I feel Nob Bikers would be more viable if the Big Mek on Warbike still existed as a normal entry in the army. I feel that they need that mobile protection to give them that extra oomph that would allow them to take advantage of their speed and glass cannon nature without being completely caught out of left field once they've munched through a target.
Vineheart01 wrote: Eh? Adding a nob is still adding a model to me. Im not sure how they could do it otherwise because it has different loadouts than the slug/shoota boy and those are chosen via "How many?" tallies. Which did it replace?
Think he means KFF points. RAW it’s 60, RAI it’s 80 seems to be the argument.
The most recent document, the Saga of the Beast FAQ, lists it as 75. RAW BattleScribe is right.
It affects saga book. All point values are taken from most recent book which is ca. raw 60. Bs wrong. Never trust bs for rules
Take all your books, write down physically all changes in erratas. Then take most recent book and check points. That's the official gw approved way to find points. And as you can see you don't ever see this point then as modified value is in saga but you will take ca. If you don't believe try it. Even kindergarden will see it after doing this.
Rai meanwhile is 80. No 5 pts discount. 75 goes against both raw and rai.
The SotB document is an 100% an update to 9th edition rules, as evidenced by multiple erratas directed at 9th edition rules inside the document, it's release after 9th edition launch and the logo used. Since it has been released after CA2020, this is the most recent source of a big mek's point costs available.
The 60 points from the original release have been overwritten by CA2020 and now have been overwritten by the SotB FAQ. Absolutely no interpretation of anything GW has ever released supports using something but the most recent rules. Books don't magically supersede more recent documents. You literally had to make up extra steps for your interpretation to exist in the first place.
Don't state your opinions as fact. Claiming that your variant is "the official GW approved way to find points" is flat out a lie and you have no way of backing up that lie.
Both RAI and RAW the big mek with KFF is 75 points. That's the cost he has on the most updated document and its datasheet is pretty clear, the KFF is included both in its wargear and points cost.
Big mek jumped from 55 to 60 because that was the 10ish% increase that most of the orks characters got from 8th to 9th, then he was updated to 75 because he was undercosted otherwise.
The misconception comes from the timing of the FAQ's release: if it was out before CA I'm sure CA would have put the Big Mek with KFF at 75. But GW never released a SotB FAQ before 9th, so CA just updated the Big Mek's points cost following the guidelines, but it was a point cost that needed to be corrected. Last FAQ put things right.
BattleScribe is only based on the opinion of the person updating it... it’s not official and is that persons best guess...
The big Mek point cost is still kinda up in the air but I’d lean to chapter approved being the most recent updated rules and that is due for its own faq.
To throw a bigger wrench into the debate.... the most recent points cost isn’t even chapter approved it’s the official Gw app which was the most recent points officially released by Gw... and the big mek w kff is only 75pts with the kff included...
However The mega armor big Mek is 85pts (kmk+10, pk+10) with the kff free
Hi!
Regarding the Warboss on Warbike unit that is listed in the Munitorum Field Manual as a FW unit, I asume that it is the old rules from the index that one should use? If so, is the ERRETA for the "Warboss on Warbike, Waaagh!" valid as well?
tulun wrote:The advantage of 10 bikes is 60 shots and they get around 30 attacks each (+1 with the nob) -- you could field 5 nob bikers at 185 (give the boss a Kill saw) and get 21 Str 5 attacks, and 3 Kill saw attacks if you need these guys out in a pinch. Saves 95 points, has 5 less wounds, but these are plenty efficient. Potentially str 6 too with the strat, meaning you might wound a lot of horde stuff on 2s.
I've been thinking about this as well. The shot output at least on regular Warbikers.
tulun wrote: Forgeworld is allowed in tournaments, I think it was just ETC that was weird about them?
Depends. I think tneva said that ETC bans FW in his area, but I've talked to multiple people attending ETC events around here and they don't seem to mind.
SMG vs KMK - 48” range with the new rules is maybe even more important. Because there si nowhere to hide. Table is smaller. Theory about “too much LOS blocking” is not working.
Important is deploy another way then in 8th. I skipped KFF protection and spread the Gunz in the back of my deploy to screen 9” DS. Coz grots are for screen, nicht so? SMG open crossfire in narrow LOS between the tall ruins. Works fine, because planes, truckboyz and scrapjets in the face of enemy atract the fire and SMG was not the target. So who needs KFF anymore . Plus you can improve your LOS with this magic 3” move without penalty, which is pretty imoprtant. 2-3 of my 6 SMGs moved every turn.
And yes, there was huge amount of ruins etc on the table with the biggest one in the midle.
And one more point. Daemon Prince could be killed by empty Trukk But you need the Prince with last 2 wounds and some luck with the Ramming Speed
i think thats largely on what you have to make terrain out of. in my area its almost exclusively ruins and ruinwalls. Very little rocky stuff we got is really usable in 40k and the few tree platforms we got are really annoying to play around so they tend to get ignored. People are terrible at putting barricades away so they kinda...vanish alot
The ruin rules are annoying around here for that reason. Theres usually a loose zig-zag of LoS blocking stuff in every game, really only giving 1-2 lines that go from edge to edge without obstruction.
Can Infantry performs Actions like Raise the banners high or Deploy scrambles or Teleport Homer while sitting in transport?
I think no, because Transport rule says “Units cannot normaly do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked” . But is it valid for Actions also?
Grots hoovering around in Chinorks looks so crazy I have to ask this question
Infantry in transport are not considered to be on the battlefield unless a rule tells you otherwise. In addition, most actions require you to measure to the unit inside, which can never be done.
In general, if its in a transport just ignore them completely.
iirc the only rules that affect them period right now is Open Topped and a couple of retaliatory rules were faq'd to hit the embarked unit not the transport (i.e. admech bots' shield).
Open Topped only lets them "exist" so-to-speak when they shoot. But they still arent actually on the board.
I've heard people mention usage of Kommandos so far for enemy backline objective disruption, possibly even for the teleport or linebreaker secondary depending on the size of the unit. I know that Deffskullz are basically the mandatory klan for them to get the Obsec rule, but as far as size and loadout goes, what has worked for people so far? It seems like you either go for 5 min squads with a Nob + Killsaw, or one to two 15 man squads to do more than just annoy your opponent.
5 boy kommando squads are definitely a topic. Seems to be cheap solution. I'm afraid, they are too squishi and die immediately.... in theory, you can hide them in ruins or whatever.....
I played them couple of times in 8th like objective grab etc. They killed nothing and die. 3 SMG was better investment than 2 Kommando squads. But there were no secondaries in 8th...
tulun wrote: Forgeworld is allowed in tournaments, I think it was just ETC that was weird about them?
Depends. I think tneva said that ETC bans FW in his area, but I've talked to multiple people attending ETC events around here and they don't seem to mind.
Naah fw been fine here all the time. It's legends/index flowchart stuff that has been banned well before ork codex came out.
Though think some bigger etc tournaments might have had it banned. Don't quote me on that though.
Ok, then I actually don't know anyone who has FW banned as part of their ETC gaming outside of internet hearsay (not to be confused with internet heresy)
I am a TO and league organiser, one of the 2 other friend that helps me is the head of the judges for the ETC, that now is called WCT. FW is not allowed. However, there are NO tournaments in Sweden, Danmark, Norway and any other european country I am aware of that use WCT rules ATM.
Jidmah wrote: Ok, then I actually don't know anyone who has FW banned as part of their ETC gaming outside of internet hearsay (not to be confused with internet heresy)
Yuh. If fw was largely banned here(there's couple small tournaments here and there. Also not sure is it coincidence but looking back at recent tournaments(pre-corona mostly) the 2 that did ban fw were actually itc styled).
Elfric wrote: I've had pretty good success with small squads of 5 man Kommandos and Stormboyz. I think big units are out for now
5 man squads of kommandos are quite useful, however larger squads can also be good if they have some synergy with the rest of the army: if you jump 30 boyz and maybe tellyport 5 meganobz a large squads of kommandos adds more pressure; even with massed trukk/wagon boyz they could work, they're basically trukk boyz that have been delivered wherever they needed to be. DS is probably the best option, as usual, as they count like boyz for obj sec and the nob's PK has the re-rolls, but aggressive lists of ES or Goffs could work as well.
Due to having Snikrot, a decent psyhcic power, relic and warlord trait and the stratagem that at least makes some sense in 9th, I'd probably consider blood axes to be better than snakebites, but at the very least tied for last.
Emicrania wrote: If Snikrot wasn´t locked in the worst klan after Snakebite, it would be a great vanguard option.
Yeah, tbh, I kinda wish he had a rule similar to Ghazgkhull where he doesn't lose or make the rest of his detachment lose their klan rules. He's more or less a solo killer ala Marbo anyways, except for Orks, so it never made sense to me that he was klan locked. That or Blood Axes need a serious overhaul to consider ever taking a solo detachment of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Due to having Snikrot, a decent psyhcic power, relic and warlord trait and the stratagem that at least makes some sense in 9th, I'd probably consider blood axes to be better than snakebites, but at the very least tied for last.
In reality, 6+++ is just useless.
I feel most 6+ FNP abilities to just be a time waster in most games. Either you save nothing some games, or you roll hot for others and you save disproportionately. But with multi-damage weapons being so widespread nowadays, its much more the former than the latter. FNP needs to be 5+ or better to warrant considering useful in most armies nowadays. If Painboyz boosted the Snakebite FNP to a 5+, I think we'd see a lot more Painboy and Snakebite usage.
Yea, I was very disappointed that the painboy save didn't stack with the Snakebite one. Would have been a nice little fluffy perk that made them less bad. Alas, I haven't played my Snakebites as Snakebites at all in 8th - they've been Evil Sunz wild boyz instead.
6+++ is more or less waste on 1w models. For w2 models vs dam2 weapons you kill basically 75 models per 100 shots.
And as my ork warboss found having dam flat 4 klaw wasn't that cool vs w4 dark eldar models(incidentally about 65 models dead for 100 past armour/inv save)
So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Yeah, sadly of our 2W models... that's nobz and warbikers, right? Not exactly the stars of our codex. Technically Flash Gits as well, but they can't ever be snakebites. For either of those having a 6++ save is just as good, if not better.
Averages fails to properly display the unreliability of an ability with such a low chance of success. A 6+++ has a relatively high chance of having absolutely no effect on your game, and therefore is no more than a gamble. Since snakebites have little else to offer besides their relic pretty much every sub-clan is better than them.
Has anyone had much luck with using trukkboyz so far? Still thinking it's worth the investment for the various uses they offer while dumping the lads onto objectives.
Thinking about what to support them with. Weirdboyz aren't as needed with those troops you could back them up with bikerbosses or wartrikes to do some lifting or simply leave them as a distraction of sorts while other aspects of the list do the work.
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Very nice, definitely helps get a objective look on units when they are laid out in a PPW format, MANz really are looking like champs.
Small note Grotsnik MUST charge when enemy is within 12" ignoring anything that'd prevent him.
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
cody.d. wrote: Has anyone had much luck with using trukkboyz so far? Still thinking it's worth the investment for the various uses they offer while dumping the lads onto objectives.
Thinking about what to support them with. Weirdboyz aren't as needed with those troops you could back them up with bikerbosses or wartrikes to do some lifting or simply leave them as a distraction of sorts while other aspects of the list do the work.
Heres my recent experience with them:
Gave trukk boyz a go in a 1k point game. Opponent was relatively new the game but proactively trying to be good so feel free to take my results with a grain of salt. Opponent was playing Ad Mech and experimenting with the new raiders and a bit of a gunline with dakkabots, crab, kataphrons and skitarii. I had 4 trukks (wrecking balls + big shoota), 3 with 10 boyz (killsaw+rokkit), 1 filled with flash gitz, and warboss with all the brutal but kunnin, biggest boss, and killa klaw.
First game I got to go first, I got a bit lucky with flash gitz and got to shoot twice, also mork smiled upon me and all my rokkits connected. So his crab,1 dakka bot, and raiders were all gone first turn. My movement was very aggressive except for the trukk with flash gitz, I was able to push 3 of the trukks up close to his gun line, 1 was ontop of an objective and 2 were ontop of another objective. Flash git trukk was sitting on an objective on my side of the field. He used what dakka he had left to shoot down two trukks, but I still scored for holding 3 objectives due to my boyz spilling out onto them. He wasn't able to answer flash gitz fast enough and I cleared most of his gunline out by end of turn 3, leaving him with a grim turn 4.
Second game we only squeezed out a round due to time. We agreed he would go first to see how things would play out without the generosity of mork. He learnt his lesson about flash gitz and immediately shot down the trukk with them in it, and used his raiders to charge them. I lost quite a few flash gitz from this but was able to clear out most his raiders in overwatch. I failed to kill them all in the fight phase, with precisely 1 wound remaining on the whole unit. He had another unit of raiders try to get ontop of an objective. Despite this I still had 3 trukks ready to go as his efforts were focused on the trukks. I pushed forward onto objectives again, and this time I was within charge range of his dakka bots and raiders. So I charged the trukks into them, while still being in range of the objective due to the trukks size. The Flash Gitz had to fall back into some ruins, but when their trukk exploded I used loot it. So I was confident in their staying power. Despite the game ending early, I felt like I was in a good position. He had countered my Flash Gitz for a turn but they were now super tanky. My trukks were tying up large portions of this army, and what hadn't been tied up was going to be heavily moved blocked by the presence of my trukks. He might of been able to kill my trukks over the next two turns, but I was going to be sitting on the primaries for a majority of the game without any issue.
For 2k point games, I think you need to go a bit harder into trukk boyz to pull it off. I think if you don't have at least 6 sets of them then you're not going to have any luck, trukks are surprisingly sturdy but they're not sturdy enough to withstand the dakka found in 2k point games. Your real tankiness will come from quantity. From playing that previous game, even though my opponent was a novice, I didn't have to try at all to stay on top of the objective. He technically has to shoot at two separate units to clear me from it. I didn't lean into this hard enough in that game but I also think there is a LOT of potential in zoning out your enemy with move blocking. I think bonebreakers and buggies would also fulfil that role. For actual support units though, I would genuinely consider wartrike with da fixer uppers. Advancing and charging with trukks could have some value in board control and having a unit that can keep up with them to repair them would increase their staying power. I think you're right in ditching weird boyz, they're great but a trukk boy list will just give them nothing to work with. I would also argue that you want distraction units, to draw fire away from the trukks.
I've got a tourney coming up soon and planning Gargantuan Squiggoth + Trukk Boyz. The idea being the trukk boyz focus on primary objectives, the Gargantuan Squiggoth doubles as a distraction and also focuses down on their threats. I haven't got a finished list yet but will probably post it for feedback closer to the event.
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Good work. Some things I noticed:
- Buzzgob cannot take a KFF - Thrakka still has his +1 attack aura
- Souped-up Speshul also reduces S and AP by 1
- Squig Tires are not related to evil suns
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Very nice, definitely helps get a objective look on units when they are laid out in a PPW format, MANz really are looking like champs.
Small note Grotsnik MUST charge when enemy is within 12" ignoring anything that'd prevent him.
Cheers !
cody.d. wrote:
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Seems like there is a lot of shorthand, colour coding and markings. Is there a list of their meanings somewhere I missed?
It was on the side, I moved it on the bottom for easier reading on the phone. Also I changed to alternate shade to easier reading.
Jidmah wrote:
Emicrania wrote: So guys, I just ended the fun task of going thru ALL orks unit in the codex, PA and FW index with the new rules and update points.
I made an excel with various checklists as if the unit can DS for free, has an innate ability to deliver MW, price per W and so on.
Please do check it and give some feedback, during this month I will open a ork page on FB only for competitive play, with the hope to get more people to pitch in.
Any feedback is welcome.
When I have the time and the energy I will do an unit analysis on Mathammer in order to see if there are some good investment that we might not see yet.
Good work. Some things I noticed:
- Buzzgob cannot take a KFF - Thrakka still has his +1 attack aura
- Souped-up Speshul also reduces S and AP by 1
- Squig Tires are not related to evil suns
The weirdboy was just not pulling his weight in this style of list. He ate a CP just by existing, and keeping him in my back pocket for the opportune moment was not worth the hassle. I found that if my opponents popped a wagon and a bunch of boys, a warboss and a weirdboy fell out of it, then all three were going to be super dead in the next few moments, and the jump/warpath shenanigans almost never came to fruition (I did get da jump off on the MANz in one game after their wagon got shot to bits turn one and they proceeded to sit on my opponents home objective the entire game). Strangely, having just the boys and the warboss fall out just elicited more of a "okay, that's a thing. Let's shoot more wagons" reaction more often than not. So he has been shelved at the moment.
The MANz are awesome for sitting on objectives. 2+/6++ in cover soaks up silly amounts of firepower and are so obnoxious. However they just weren't killing things as well as I would like expect for the saws boss. So I bought more MANz and now everyone has saws.
Other than that, the list feels really solid and feels like its components work well together.
I now have about 50 points to add after adding a single boy to the larger mob. Would I benefit more from a minimum unit of kommandos, or a rokkit deffkopta? I'm erring towards the kopta, simply so I don't have to paint more boys
Also, job well done on the front page write up Jid.
Afrodactyl wrote: The weirdboy was just not pulling his weight in this style of list. He ate a CP just by existing, and keeping him in my back pocket for the opportune moment was not worth the hassle. I found that if my opponents popped a wagon and a bunch of boys, a warboss and a weirdboy fell out of it, then all three were going to be super dead in the next few moments, and the jump/warpath shenanigans almost never came to fruition (I did get da jump off on the MANz in one game after their wagon got shot to bits turn one and they proceeded to sit on my opponents home objective the entire game). Strangely, having just the boys and the warboss fall out just elicited more of a "okay, that's a thing. Let's shoot more wagons" reaction more often than not. So he has been shelved at the moment.
Yeah, my experience with weird boyz in similar lists was the same. He just feels out of place in a vehicle list. We need a weird wagon
The MANz are awesome for sitting on objectives. 2+/6++ in cover soaks up silly amounts of firepower and are so obnoxious. However they just weren't killing things as well as I would like expect for the saws boss. So I bought more MANz and now everyone has saws.
Same. Just keep in mind that objectives can't actually be in cover, just very close to it unless we are talking about an objective surrounded by obstacles.
I now have about 50 points to add after adding a single boy to the larger mob. Would I benefit more from a minimum unit of kommandos, or a rokkit deffkopta? I'm erring towards the kopta, simply so I don't have to paint more boys
A single koptas does very little besides giving up 2 VP for the vehicle killing secondary, so I'd prefer kommandos. An alternative option would be putting rokkits on your mobs and warboss for some extra deffskulls awesomeness.
Also, job well done on the front page write up Jid.
Had a fun game this weekend, first 9th edition game, some rules probably missed but it was good fun.
I had a fully painted army, he had mostly grey, so I swapped out a turret for a grey one. I ain't taking free points for anything that isn't related to the game. This is my stance on the whole "10 free points for having time to paint" rubbish - I'll only field 100% battle-ready if my opponent does. Otherwise, the grey turret, or one grey boy, comes out.
battlewagon, big shoota
battlewagon, big shoota
gunwagon, boomer, 3 big shootas
he had primaris, 6 of the new bikes, the 2 big grav-tanks, 2 units of primaris marines and 1 unit of assault ones, captain and chapter master.
I won 51-46. We were plaing mission 2 of the 1500 point range, with 4 objectives. It was a really fun game. Loved the objectives we can choose and the way points are scored throughout. Really felt like it went down to the wire.
Things I've found:
1: Might run bloodaxe instead of deffskulls for the ability to fall back then shoot. Got my wagons in CC with their bikes, which worked for nullifying their speed and decent guns, but felt I'd have liked more utility from there.
2: Shokkjump Dragsta is immense for board control, just plop it on the objective you're missing or behind enemy lines for extra points! wahey!
3: Trukkboys are still sub-par, I will be changing the PK's for Saws, throwing them a rokkit and trying again. Might run shoota-trukks next time.
4: Endless Green Tide is a game-changer in low points if you have big-isy squads! I had 3 orks left, 3CP later and there's 20 of them threatening your objective in your deployment zone, boom!
5: Stepping back 2 inches from combat and smiling in the chapter masters face as the boomer levels its sights on him from behind is quite fun. BOOM! hur hur hur... In the ooold days the boys would have gotten a bit crispy, but no templates means no collateral!
6: Battlewagons need some decent CC attachments - without them, they were too limp when they made it there.
7: Trukks need to charge before boys, to soak up any overwatch. They can also screen from protective characters, who would otherwise intervene.
All in all it was much good fun! Thoroughly enjoyed it, liking 9th better than 8th!
I had a fully painted army, he had mostly grey, so I swapped out a turret for a grey one. I ain't taking free points for anything that isn't related to the game. This is my stance on the whole "10 free points for having time to paint" rubbish - I'll only field 100% battle-ready if my opponent does. Otherwise, the grey turret, or one grey boy, comes out.
Cool on the win.
Just gotta say, good on ya for this, though. I think the stupidest rule they added was the "10 VPs for painted".
I'd feel crappy if I won based on "my army was painted and yours wasn't", and I'd be salty if lost because of this too.
Tournaments already have a painting requirement, I dunno why casual games should either. I feel like people are just going to outright ignore this rule. If someone tried to enforce this, I'd probably just not play them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bad news everyone.
Warboss on warbike was removed from the CA20 points and replaced with Zhard.
I had a fully painted army, he had mostly grey, so I swapped out a turret for a grey one. I ain't taking free points for anything that isn't related to the game. This is my stance on the whole "10 free points for having time to paint" rubbish - I'll only field 100% battle-ready if my opponent does. Otherwise, the grey turret, or one grey boy, comes out.
Cool on the win.
Just gotta say, good on ya for this, though. I think the stupidest rule they added was the "10 VPs for painted".
I'd feel crappy if I won based on "my army was painted and yours wasn't", and I'd be salty if lost because of this too.
Tournaments already have a painting requirement, I dunno why casual games should either. I feel like people are just going to outright ignore this rule. If someone tried to enforce this, I'd probably just not play them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bad news everyone.
Warboss on warbike was removed from the CA20 points and replaced with Zhard.
Bike boss no longer has any official points.
Well the loss of the biker boss is extremely disappointing. Saga of the Beast errata clarifies you do not need the workshop for kustom jobs.
tulun wrote: It no longer has any points value, and we've been proxying a datasheet that should really not be used.
So no, the only legal biker boss is da Ripper now. This might change with the new FW book, though... we can hope...
Or a new codex maybe
In all honesty, I'm hoping for a regular warboss, a megaboss and a biker boss in the next book. And now a weirdwagon thanks to Jidmah. I'm picturing the Doof Warrior
In this moment in time, there a whopping 2, two, dos, due HQ that we can buy from GW. Man I"m starting to get tired of this gak.
I'm 100% sure that the reason behind is that the deffkilla wartrike should do that. Which.. dude, where to start?
tneva82 wrote: Big mek w/KFF can be shot freely if he's only around mek guns.
Wartrike surrounded by buggies? Same.
GW keeps providing orks...with nerfs.
And yes 12" heavy flamers though so far only for terminators.
Wait, what? What changed?
"Page 219 – Look Out, Sir
Change the first sentence to read:
‘Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character
models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged
weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly Vehicle
or Monster unit with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more,
or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3
or more models, unless that Character unit is both visible to
the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing
model – the maelstrom of battle makes it difficult to pick out
such individuals.’
Change the summary bullet point to read:
Cannot shoot at an enemy Character with 9 or
less wounds while it is within 3" of a friendly unit
(Monster or Vehicle with 10 or more wounds, or a
unit of 3+ models) unless it is the closest target.
Congrats GW you have finally killed off orks. What few characters we have are completely free to get picked off unless we green-tide, which nobody wants to do because boyz suck balls right now.
Why 10w limit? That is so stupid. There are TONS of vehicles that arent 10W+ so what the heck caused that?
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb... "If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
Congrats GW you have finally killed off orks. What few characters we have are completely free to get picked off unless we green-tide, which nobody wants to do because boyz suck balls right now.
Why 10w limit? That is so stupid. There are TONS of vehicles that arent 10W+ so what the heck caused that?
The problem was an awkward loophole.
So two daemon princes could give each other character protection, because both were monsters. So it was a lot harder to target them.
The solution was to make it so CHARACTER monsters / vehicles don't offer protection under 10 wounds, but instead they went the whole 9 yards. Why is a KFF mek hiding behind 10 mek guns not safe?
Congrats GW you have finally killed off orks. What few characters we have are completely free to get picked off unless we green-tide, which nobody wants to do because boyz suck balls right now.
Why 10w limit? That is so stupid. There are TONS of vehicles that arent 10W+ so what the heck caused that?
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb...
"If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
There was stuff like pair of daemon princes 3" from each other giving los to each other.
For 2nd if you have 6's give extra hit and 6's autowound 6 isn't 2 autowound but autowound and normal hit.
gungo wrote: To be fair zhardsnark with the biggest boss strat is a very viable unit.....
At 100pts id say he’s almost an auto take iff you go evil Suns...
9wounds, toughness 6, 4+/4++
6 atks, 2+ to hit, str12, ap-4, d3 with mortal wounds vs infantry/monster
16” move, 7advance.. reroll charge
For 100 pts
Because anything that starts selling like hotcakes for xenos is always instantly nerfed.
Only imperials get to actually play with their OP toys before it gets "fixed"
tulun wrote: Why? Squiggoths are selling. Hell, the baby one got a proper points update in the CA20.
That's why. GW prefers people to buy plastic that has higher profit rate than resin. Plastic is basically put in material, mould and press button. Then it does automatically new sprues until you stop it or material runs out. Resin is much more human work involving process. You can't just put machine cast more models on it's own.
Basically the Big Mek with KFF is now viable only for shielding 60 boyz (because 90 on 32mm bases won't fit) and some characters or giving 5++ to the vehicle he's embarked in.
Gretchins detachment with him and mek gunz is dead.
gungo wrote: To be fair zhardsnark with the biggest boss strat is a very viable unit.....
At 100pts id say he’s almost an auto take iff you go evil Suns...
9wounds, toughness 6, 4+/4++
6 atks, 2+ to hit, str12, ap-4, d3 with mortal wounds vs infantry/monster
16” move, 7advance.. reroll charge
For 100 pts
Too bad it requires you to run Evil Sunz.
It’s not the worst...
Seriously what’s left?
Death skulls
Evil suns
Goffs mainly because of ghaz
Even freebooters got kicked a bit in the teef.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Basically the Big Mek with KFF is now viable only for shielding 60 boyz (because 90 on 32mm bases won't fit) and some characters or giving 5++ to the vehicle he's embarked in.
Gretchins detachment with him and mek gunz is dead.
I have no intention of rebasing unless forced too... then again we might get new boyz.
But I’ll still use the new bigger boyz as skar boys or ard boyz.
I honestly think ghaz infantry spam will be our most competitive.. after that it’s probably a deathskull mostly buggy/vehicle list or evil suns mix of infantry and vehicles... the psychic power is decent too.
Finally took the time to read the first page on the new thread - good work Jidmah!
Agree with almost all of the stuff, some minor differences about the rating of a few units, but those tend to be between two colours in my mind. Guess with an 10/10 points rating the results would be more similar.^^
For example i would rate boys 1 tier better, since green tide seems to be quite good right now and spamming lots of them is still valid.
Red tier for Mini Mek is a bit harsh, no? :( With a death skulls brigade he is still the cheapest slot filler and does his job with the clan trait and an KMB as well as potential repairing.
Used stormboys for filling an infantry only brigade to run as many ObSec models i can, so i can see some use in them, if you want to avoid Kopta secondaries VP`s and get a fast, small unit for your own secondaries as well.
Also the cheapest slot filler in a brigade without vehicles, which might be worth to take a look into.
Zhadsnark might get a little more worthy with todays loss of the Warbos on Bike as well.
Oh and something that might be worth pointing out with competetive streak, especially with the Dakkajet but concerns other units as well: +2 to hit still helps if you get negative hit modifiers, so shooting something with +2 or more will still matter, if there are (multiple) negative hit modifiers. I play a lot vs. Stygis Admech and Raven Guard, so at least for me it gets relevant from time to time.
But like i said, great work that gives a good overview on da greenskins.
Its both amusing and infuriating how listbuilding works now. I have been fielding what feels like way too few troops (2-3 units) yet at the same time i feel like i dont have the points to try what im thinking about lol. Man its gonna take awhile to get used to this...
Yeah it`s kinda weird. Just finished the last of my 150 gretchin 3 months ago, now i just get 3 x 10 so i can play my battalion or just go for spearhead and the likes.
Too bad now my buggies don`t screen the characters anymore, that was a huge hit for my vehicle heavy lists.
Sadly my most effective games so far were green tide denying secondaries, but the most fun are Nauts, Buggies and stompy stuff...
But those list building problems hit all my armies, except DG because there i don`t really care about CP. Still kinda hard to find the best sweetspot for numbers of HQ, minimize troop taxes and get CP.
2 patrols seems to be popular a lot, but that depends on the army. With TS i still play 3 detachments, orks no chance.
Grotrebel wrote: Finally took the time to read the first page on the new thread - good work Jidmah! Agree with almost all of the stuff, some minor differences about the rating of a few units, but those tend to be between two colours in my mind. Guess with an 10/10 points rating the results would be more similar.^^
Thanks
For example i would rate boys 1 tier better, since green tide seems to be quite good right now and spamming lots of them is still valid.
I'm not aware of any boyz-heavy list doing well, feel free to provide a source.
Red tier for Mini Mek is a bit harsh, no? :( With a death skulls brigade he is still the cheapest slot filler and does his job with the clan trait and an KMB as well as potential repairing.
Filling slots is a bad thing in 9th, and KMB is a legends option - it's pretty much guaranteed that no competitive event will allow those. All ratings have been made without considering legends options.
Used stormboys for filling an infantry only brigade to run as many ObSec models i can, so i can see some use in them, if you want to avoid Kopta secondaries VP`s and get a fast, small unit for your own secondaries as well. Also the cheapest slot filler in a brigade without vehicles, which might be worth to take a look into.
Same here, filling slots is not a good thing in 9th, as there is no advantage in taking a brigade over a battalion. In fact, considering the heavy nerfs to our troops, a battalion, an outrider detachment or even a pair of patrols are better choices than burdening yourself with six units of troops.
Zhadsnark might get a little more worthy with todays loss of the Warbos on Bike as well.
Not really, he has a lot of problems.Besides being locked into Evil Suns, his klaw is only d3, not flat 3 damage like the killa klaw boss and he can't give the Waaagh! to bikes. As such he is unable to fill the void left by the warboss, Thrakka does a way better job at that, despite costing an arm and a leg.
Are any of our relics worthwhile, or are they even usable/deliverable if they are decent? Super cyborg and gitbonez are like a meh nice afterthought better than nothing. Not like tailor a list around worthy.
We have support characters who die easier, do less effective supporting, and cost more lol
Wartrike is still a valid option if you run multiple wagons. Wagons protect it and wagons getting that T1 charge is mega important, also less incentive to pop it if the units its meant to buff are already across the table anyway.
I would drop the kustom job and save the cp though personally.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wartrike is still a valid option if you run multiple wagons. Wagons protect it and wagons getting that T1 charge is mega important, also less incentive to pop it if the units its meant to buff are already across the table anyway.
I would drop the kustom job and save the cp though personally.
Honestly, I might just take triple trukk as my default troop choices in my mech list. It won't win me tournaments, but it'll probably make the wartrike useable when I play with my friends.
Red tier for Mini Mek is a bit harsh, no? :( With a death skulls brigade he is still the cheapest slot filler and does his job with the clan trait and an KMB as well as potential repairing.
Filling slots is a bad thing in 9th, and KMB is a legends option - it's pretty much guaranteed that no competitive event will allow those. All ratings have been made without considering legends options.
Oh damn i missed that one. In that case I 100% agree on the Mek.
And concerning green tide, just seemed a lot of people were on the "only option left to play" train. Getting any helpful and meaningful data from tournaments is kinda hard with a lot less taking place and people overall just getting into the edition with lots of new variables and lists.
I played a few games and playing horde went a lot better points wise then my vehicle heavy lists.
Not gonna make it a habit to field 200+ models tough.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wartrike is still a valid option if you run multiple wagons. Wagons protect it and wagons getting that T1 charge is mega important, also less incentive to pop it if the units its meant to buff are already across the table anyway.
I would drop the kustom job and save the cp though personally.
Honestly, I might just take triple trukk as my default troop choices in my mech list. It won't win me tournaments, but it'll probably make the wartrike useable when I play with my friends.
My issue with using trukks to protect characters is not only are they super squishy but i generally want trukks to spread out and claim objectives, not castle-up around my boss.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wartrike is still a valid option if you run multiple wagons. Wagons protect it and wagons getting that T1 charge is mega important, also less incentive to pop it if the units its meant to buff are already across the table anyway.
I would drop the kustom job and save the cp though personally.
Honestly, I might just take triple trukk as my default troop choices in my mech list. It won't win me tournaments, but it'll probably make the wartrike useable when I play with my friends.
My issue with using trukks to protect characters is not only are they super squishy but i generally want trukks to spread out and claim objectives, not castle-up around my boss.
Yeah, that's legit. It's rough. The perfect options are the ones that don't do anything anymore... Mega Trakks / KBBs / Deff Dreads.
Gunwagon would be great if it could move more than 6" a turn at top bracket for shoot twice (plus it's explosion could wreck him)... you could do a second wagon I guess, but it'll probably just leave him isolated once it charges. Opened topped shooting one?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Big trakk, maybe? But those are pretty squishy for the points.
Its insulting that we cant even walk into a GW and buy a single HQ model (besides the wartrike I suppose). Completely unaccepable. Even online options are crap since theyre all metal/finecast models or come packaged with other models (Grukk and Big Mek)
....and I just got in from a great game with Ghaz on the table for the first time, leading a 2k point army of Goff trukk Boyz and nobz to properly smash up a Dark Eldar list to find out that GW have gone all Blood axe on us. Treacherous sneaky gitz.
Wow, I am really miffed at the changes I read today. GW's bias towards marines is increasingly annoying with how they don't only actively make them stronger but keep kicking other factions down for the sin of remotely challenging their golden boys. I was initially excited in seeing the changes for Terminators that we might receive some similar treatment to the PK, skorchas or Killsaws, but after the stuff that's been changed? No way. If they do change our stats, it'll swing the other way, with D3 shot Skorchas and 1 damage PK's. Absolutely stupid. I basically painted my Biker Boss for no reason, since I almost exclusively run Deffskullz. GW have got to get their act together when it comes to making these wide-ranging changes.
Geemoney wrote: Are there any HQ's left that we can even use in a mechanized list?
Biker Boss is gone, wartrike will just die now...
Yeah it's a bit difficult to say. You could put a warboss or weirdboy in a transport of some kind. Try to bait the enemy into shooting the trukk filled with boyz rather than the wagon with some mega nobz in it by sticking the boss in the cheaper vehicle? Could also use Da jump to get said boss where you want them to be in time with the other units? Nothing ideal I know.
Unless that Mystery Ork turns out to be something perfect for the gap left?
what mystery ork? you mean the very clearly a new boy sculpt they showed off or the tiny saw on a stick thing we still dunno where it came from? If i had a guess that tiny saw on a stick is a new bigchoppa variant and nothing else. Killsaw ap/damage but only +1str perhaps.
Vineheart01 wrote: what mystery ork? you mean the very clearly a new boy sculpt they showed off or the tiny saw on a stick thing we still dunno where it came from?
If i had a guess that tiny saw on a stick is a new bigchoppa variant and nothing else. Killsaw ap/damage but only +1str perhaps.
terminators are going to 3w....
Yeaaaaah. Meganobz only thing over their umie equivalents besides higher strength was that they had that extra wound (barring Paladins), so we don't even get that now. I highly doubt that our next codex will have Meganobz getting 4 wounds instead, so we'll see if GW is going to get another big SM backlash like the first time the supplements and their late 8th ed codex was released.
Vineheart01 wrote: what mystery ork? you mean the very clearly a new boy sculpt they showed off or the tiny saw on a stick thing we still dunno where it came from?
If i had a guess that tiny saw on a stick is a new bigchoppa variant and nothing else. Killsaw ap/damage but only +1str perhaps.
terminators are going to 3w....
I dunno, of the models showed off at the same time none of them particularly screamed unit, more lieutenant level thing. Like the new SOB they actually named.
Grimskul wrote: Wow, I am really miffed at the changes I read today. GW's bias towards marines is increasingly annoying with how they don't only actively make them stronger but keep kicking other factions down for the sin of remotely challenging their golden boys. I was initially excited in seeing the changes for Terminators that we might receive some similar treatment to the PK, skorchas or Killsaws, but after the stuff that's been changed? No way. If they do change our stats, it'll swing the other way, with D3 shot Skorchas and 1 damage PK's. Absolutely stupid. I basically painted my Biker Boss for no reason, since I almost exclusively run Deffskullz. GW have got to get their act together when it comes to making these wide-ranging changes.
GW's act *is* together. They want to give the non-Astartes factions the barest of minimum of support to keep you spending money, and they *don't* want them beating kids who've brought their first Primaris army to the local game store and running them off.
Question about drive-by-krumpin’ (Evil Suns player) it seems like this can also be used after the opponents shooting phase, is that correct? Has anyone had success in using it in combo with heroic intervention shenanigans or getting units contesting objectives in the opponents turn? Obviously only works if the unit involved is in a good place to take the charge? I was thinking Wartrike doing some work in the opponents turn.
Gretchin66 wrote: Question about drive-by-krumpin’ (Evil Suns player) it seems like this can also be used after the opponents shooting phase, is that correct? Has anyone had success in using it in combo with heroic intervention shenanigans or getting units contesting objectives in the opponents turn? Obviously only works if the unit involved is in a good place to take the charge? I was thinking Wartrike doing some work in the opponents turn.
This was quickly errata'd to be only in your own shooting phase. Which was always the clear RAI anyways
What is dump - buggies, morkonauts etc. Have no weapon options. And with a little or no filling grot mobz, there is almost nowhere where to spare fkn 13 points over limit! Grrrrrrr
Standard Warboss is cheap and good enough to be justified in a mechanized list, just give him a ride with some boyz.
Big mek with KFF is decent for giving the 5++ to a second wagon (since Forktress is one use only) and to all the embarked models once they abandon the transport, while the Big Mek in Megarmor with KFF and Da Kleverest Boss isn't trash either.
Yeah ive been having that issue a LOT lately where i got 10-20pts lying around i simply cant use.
Wagon has bigshootas already, axing the bigshootas still doesnt let me bring anything.
Thats...like the only real options in the codex atm aside from more bodies. But more bodies break transport limits, so thats a nogo, and not enough points for another squad.
So annoying. And i thought it was annoying in 8th having 2-6pts lying around i couldnt use.
DrGiggles wrote: The 'Look Out Sir' nerf just means I will have to run a 6 man unit of Kanz to hide my KFF now. At least the 5++ should help them survive turn one.
Make it 5 kanz. You don't want plasma kannons and battlecannons getting 3 hits against your kanz, believe me...
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah ive been having that issue a LOT lately where i got 10-20pts lying around i simply cant use.
Wagon has bigshootas already, axing the bigshootas still doesnt let me bring anything.
Depending on your list I've been using the odd points to upgrade trukks big shootas to rokkit launchas.
However I run deathskullz so they have an ok chance of doing something from time to time.
DrGiggles wrote: The 'Look Out Sir' nerf just means I will have to run a 6 man unit of Kanz to hide my KFF now. At least the 5++ should help them survive turn one.
Make it 5 kanz. You don't want plasma kannons and battlecannons getting 3 hits against your kanz, believe me...
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah ive been having that issue a LOT lately where i got 10-20pts lying around i simply cant use.
Wagon has bigshootas already, axing the bigshootas still doesnt let me bring anything.
Depending on your list I've been using the odd points to upgrade trukks big shootas to rokkit launchas.
However I run deathskullz so they have an ok chance of doing something from time to time.
Would normally do that automatically but orks cant have nice things: thats a Legends option now.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah ive been having that issue a LOT lately where i got 10-20pts lying around i simply cant use.
Wagon has bigshootas already, axing the bigshootas still doesnt let me bring anything.
Depending on your list I've been using the odd points to upgrade trukks big shootas to rokkit launchas.
However I run deathskullz so they have an ok chance of doing something from time to time.
That's no longer an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Would normally do that automatically but orks cant have nice things: thats a Legends option now.
Actually, it's not. You simply aren't allowed to upgrade the trukk gun anymore. Oh you bought the official rokkit upgrade sprue for that? Well, too bad, filthy xenos.
I really don't see much reason to do that, you lose 2 CP for almost no gain. The power of the biker warboss came from carrying the killa klaw, he also is locked into the ES trait, so Zardsnark cannot be used in the same way you were using the biker warboss.
That said, if you have already committed yourself to ES, you might as well bring a weirdboy and buff your gunwagon with visions in the smoke.
Jidmah wrote: I really don't see much reason to do that, you lose 2 CP for almost no gain. The power of the biker warboss came from carrying the killa klaw, he also is locked into the ES trait, so Zardsnark cannot be used in the same way you were using the biker warboss.
That said, if you have already committed yourself to ES, you might as well bring a weirdboy and buff your gunwagon with visions in the smoke.
If you swap the Klaw to a MA Big Mek or something though, Da Rippa for 100 points isn't terrible... it's just a definite down grade. He can get Da Biggest boss for 6 attacks at least, though. But yeah. He won't blender everything anymore. Hell, transhuman will make him laughably weak, he only kills like maybe 2-3 intercessors.
I was chatting with a buddy of mine about the gunwagon +weirdboy.
Honestly? I sort of feel like for that 250 point investment, with a chance to have the power fail / be denied, I'd rather pay 20 more points and take 3 KBB.
Consistent 18 shots, 3 rerolls to hit and wound, and the main loss is 1 strength. Also the buggies aren't totally immobile. Get a CP back, too, for not taking a kustom job.
Got to face ghaz himself. Bit tough matchup as i got first turn and had perfect tarpit for ghaz(2++ wraiths. Sure every 1 kills 45pts wraith but 2++) but damn that thing gave me good scare. On bigger games could see it doing better. Now since he went and charged my wraiths with ghaz i got better in objectives(to be fair second game for him).
Only reason i got near killing was he had missed painboy stratagem doesn't work in tinheads mob and declined offer to change to goff detachment.
There's a taktik that I was employing through 8th, which I thought I would share with the group as it may still hold water in 9th, and that was having sacrificial transports.
Eary in 8th, I was running battlewagons, and trying to kill my opponents anti-tank off, and then getting beat as the anti-infantry killed my boys when they were finally turfed out.
I then switched it up and focussed on their anti-infantry. The opponents often commented, when I'd killed their anti-chaff, that they would have gone for their anti-tank, as all I had were vehicles. But then he blew up a couple of wagons, and the boys spilled out, and he realised he had no way to deal with them.
So my Taktik is to start mech, then switch to chaff when the anti-chaff is dead (assuming you're given the option!)
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb...
"If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
They generate extra attacks or hits, without special rules.
The big thing this hits is Death Guard flails, which were getting situations where Death to the False Emperor (more attacks on a 6) would first trigger extra hits from the flail rule, then those extra attacks could generate even *more* flail hits. This puts that back in the can.
I can't think of anything Orky that this impacts off the top of my head.
some bloke wrote: There's a taktik that I was employing through 8th, which I thought I would share with the group as it may still hold water in 9th, and that was having sacrificial transports.
Eary in 8th, I was running battlewagons, and trying to kill my opponents anti-tank off, and then getting beat as the anti-infantry killed my boys when they were finally turfed out.
I then switched it up and focussed on their anti-infantry. The opponents often commented, when I'd killed their anti-chaff, that they would have gone for their anti-tank, as all I had were vehicles. But then he blew up a couple of wagons, and the boys spilled out, and he realised he had no way to deal with them.
So my Taktik is to start mech, then switch to chaff when the anti-chaff is dead (assuming you're given the option!)
Anyone else play like this?
When I think about it, this is basically how I ran my battle wagon bash in 5th and 6th. So, yes it makes a lot of sense, especially anti-chaff has a tendency to be infantry-based so you are also taking away your opponent's ability to score or perform actions.
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb...
"If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
They generate extra attacks or hits, without special rules.
The big thing this hits is Death Guard flails, which were getting situations where Death to the False Emperor (more attacks on a 6) would first trigger extra hits from the flail rule, then those extra attacks could generate even *more* flail hits. This puts that back in the can.
I can't think of anything Orky that this impacts off the top of my head.
That makes sense.
The interpretation i had was the new attacks had NO rules, as in even deathskull rerolls wouldnt affect them.
Which given the amount of bullcrap hitting orks lately i wouldnt put it behind GW to do that. That would maaaaasively hurt deathskullz and even badmoonz/goffs.
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb...
"If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
They generate extra attacks or hits, without special rules.
The big thing this hits is Death Guard flails, which were getting situations where Death to the False Emperor (more attacks on a 6) would first trigger extra hits from the flail rule, then those extra attacks could generate even *more* flail hits. This puts that back in the can.
I can't think of anything Orky that this impacts off the top of my head.
The flail is not affected at all by this - DotFE generates extra ATTACKS and the flail rule tells you to make d3 hit rolls for each attack. As with all similar rules, it has the "these attacks cannot generate further attacks" clause, so it can't go infinite but it could generate up to 3d3 additional hits per attack.
Basically, they just re-implemented a fix that was already in place for 8th, a rule that handles things like "on a hit roll of 6, improve this attack's AP by one" or "on a hit roll of 6, this attack deals a mortal wound" by clarifying that the extra hit indeed does not count as having rolled a 6 and therefore does not get improved.
Extra ATTACKS like Goff, DakkaDakkaDakka or Dreaded Death Machine are not affected in any way.
Also, the scoring additional hits blurb...
"If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll."
Uh...does this mean you cant use any rules at all for additional hits? Or did they word this really, really badly to mean you cant generate from generated attacks?
They generate extra attacks or hits, without special rules.
The big thing this hits is Death Guard flails, which were getting situations where Death to the False Emperor (more attacks on a 6) would first trigger extra hits from the flail rule, then those extra attacks could generate even *more* flail hits. This puts that back in the can.
I can't think of anything Orky that this impacts off the top of my head.
The flail is not affected at all by this - DotFE generates extra ATTACKS and the flail rule tells you to make d3 hit rolls for each attack. As with all similar rules, it has the "these attacks cannot generate further attacks" clause, so it can't go infinite but it could generate up to 3d3 additional hits per attack.
Basically, they just re-implemented a fix that was already in place for 8th, a rule that handles things like "on a hit roll of 6, improve this attack's AP by one" or "on a hit roll of 6, this attack deals a mortal wound" by clarifying that the extra hit indeed does not count as having rolled a 6 and therefore does not get improved.
Extra ATTACKS like Goff, DakkaDakkaDakka or Dreaded Death Machine are not affected in any way.
That's the thing... with the new rule from the FAQ, those extra attacks that are generated from DttFE do *not* get the flail rules to make a D3 hit rolls.
So, you get it for the first volley, then the extra attacks don't get the D3, they only get 1 swing.
It's not to stop infinite attacks, it's to stop that shotgun-style explosion from the bonus attack.
I wouldn’t take evil suns just for zhardsnark but he’s a good value HQ at 100pts.. his biggest issue was he was easy to kill and the t6, +1 wound plus 4++ fixes that.
Luckily evil suns helps other units such as mega nobs or da jumped boys make assault ranges..
And visions is useful not just on da boomer but any vehicle even kans/Mek guns or shooty dreads.... So there is some helpful theme toward an evil suns list...
But as others have said it’s likely not worth the 2cp unless you want to build a specific type of deepstrike assault list.
Honestly I’m sure his datasheet will change in the near future so who knows..
Wakshaani wrote: That's the thing... with the new rule from the FAQ, those extra attacks that are generated from DttFE do *not* get the flail rules to make a D3 hit rolls.
So, you get it for the first volley, then the extra attacks don't get the D3, they only get 1 swing.
It's not to stop infinite attacks, it's to stop that shotgun-style explosion from the bonus attack.
No, that's not "the thing". You are just plain wrong.
Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following sub-section:
SCORING ADDITIONAL HITS
When a model makes an attack, some rules will let that attack
score one or more additional hits on a particular hit roll (e.g.
‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit’). If the attacking model is
also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a particular
hit roll (e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon,
an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target’),
then only the original attack benefits from those rules. If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).
If a hit roll scores additional hits, those additional hits
do not benefit from any other rule that triggered on
the original attack’s hit roll.
Color for emphasis. This rule does not apply to additional attacks.
RedNoak wrote: eehhhmm can zhad charge after he advanced?
No. Not from his aura, anyway.
Yeah, FW didn't update his WAAAGH! rule to include bikers. We'll see when FW rereleases the Indices if that's fixed or not, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
One positive thing we can take from the faq (although I will really miss my bikerboss); the Chinork Rattler cannon is still zero points. Thus the Chinork is a viable transport. Although the new look out sire rule means you can't protect them with a KFF Mek anymore, they are still amazing as deepstriking transports with bustas or nobs.
Singleton Mosby wrote: One positive thing we can take from the faq (although I will really miss my bikerboss); the Chinork Rattler cannon is still zero points. Thus the Chinork is a viable transport. Although the new look out sire rule means you can't protect them with a KFF Mek anymore, they are still amazing as deepstriking transports with bustas or nobs.
True, though one thing you have to remember that I almost forgot from other games is that unlike trukks, since they have the aircraft keyword, they can't perform any actions with regards to objectives. And if anything, they might be in an even worse spot than the Warboss on Bike, since the Chinork hasn't been available on the store for a long time.
Yeah, I'd hold off on buying any off-brand resin copies or going too full ham on any conversions, we'll likely only have it available for 6 months to a year max before it gets cycled out. Hopefully by that point, whatever GW has planned for Orks helps make up for that loss in some way.
Singleton Mosby wrote: One positive thing we can take from the faq (although I will really miss my bikerboss); the Chinork Rattler cannon is still zero points. Thus the Chinork is a viable transport. Although the new look out sire rule means you can't protect them with a KFF Mek anymore, they are still amazing as deepstriking transports with bustas or nobs.
Just because the rattler cannon is in the weapon section of the fw chapter approved doesn’t mean the new chinork datasheet has them as an option. The rattler cannon is also a Meka dread option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, I'd hold off on buying any off-brand resin copies or going too full ham on any conversions, we'll likely only have it available for 6 months to a year max before it gets cycled out. Hopefully by that point, whatever GW has planned for Orks helps make up for that loss in some way.
unless there is a major change from last edition this fw index will likely last this entire edition. With only a few points tweaks in chapter approved. Not saying the chinork will even make this index though .
Singleton Mosby wrote: One positive thing we can take from the faq (although I will really miss my bikerboss); the Chinork Rattler cannon is still zero points. Thus the Chinork is a viable transport. Although the new look out sire rule means you can't protect them with a KFF Mek anymore, they are still amazing as deepstriking transports with bustas or nobs.
Just because the rattler cannon is in the weapon section of the fw chapter approved doesn’t mean the new chinork datasheet has them as an option. The rattler cannon is also a Meka dread option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, I'd hold off on buying any off-brand resin copies or going too full ham on any conversions, we'll likely only have it available for 6 months to a year max before it gets cycled out. Hopefully by that point, whatever GW has planned for Orks helps make up for that loss in some way.
unless there is a major change from last edition this fw index will likely last this entire edition. With only a few points tweaks in chapter approved. Not saying the chinork will even make this index though .
I think you misunderstood what I said, I meant that we only have so long before the new FW index shows up and potentially removes it as an option, not that the new one will get cycled out after a year or so.
gungo wrote: unless there is a major change from last edition this fw index will likely last this entire edition. With only a few points tweaks in chapter approved. Not saying the chinork will even make this index though .
Uuh there's whole new books for FW units coming up soonish(they said soon after 9th ed launch but of course GW's soon doesn't mean same as player's soon). With this will be the time GW will put stuff on legends(when index is replaced by proper book). So there's very high chance of all FW models without model on sale goes to legends when that book comes out. Last time I checked chinork has been OOP for a long time thus making it VERY likely candinate for legendification within ~half a year...
That's even without accounting that with all rules being redone odds of it staying good even on the off chance GW breaks their "what belongs to legends" classification and it doesn't go to legends is hardly quaranteed..
FW Orks used to have a pretty impressive line to pick from. Now its basically just the BIG things left and the bigtrakk for some reason.
They seriously need to beef up that line and stop taking stuff out of it.
tulun wrote: Now that the Wartrike is back.. what HQs do you field in a speed waaagh? Just it and maybe the Warboss in your wagon?
Yeah, I think a Warboss in a transport is the only real call atm, it's hard to pass up the Biggest Boss/Killa Klaw combo even when it's on a significantly slower platform, especially since it performs a very different role to the Wartrike, since you can do both the fight last and fight again strat on him if he does die. At worst, the Big Mek with KFF may not be a terrible alternative if you're short on points, now that they can hang back with Mek Gunz and not die immediately when within LoS of someone.
As do SAG Meks hanging out with buggies or Mek gunz.
The SAG is suddenly somewhat viable again.
I'd argue that the SAG is still kinda dead in the water atm until they get a significant points revision. With the accepted loss of the SSAG relic in most competitive circles, 120 points is just way too much for a swingy weapon, even with Deffskull rerolls. The changes to terrain make him a liability as well since he can get locked up in combat if he's perched atop most ruins.
Is it possible Orks, to represent their toughness, go to 2 wounds base, with all bigger ones getting +1 wounds? (3 wound Nobs, 4 wound Mega Nobs)
It seems heavily implied that the 2W thing will only apply to veteran oldmarine models, so guys like Vanguard vets, Sternguard, etc. This also explains the 3W terminator leak, since it's basically the armour plus the base 2W for vets. As mentioned before, it would make intercessors look pretty bad versus tacticals in comparison as far as their current points costs go.
There is some precedence for mass 2W Orc-based stuff from how that's basically how it works with Orruk Warclans in AoS, but I would prefer they give us our options back (i.e. ACTUAL ard boyz with 4+ save on a points basis than an overpriced strat) and change some of our weapons (i.e. Power Klaws and Big Shootas) to make them actually worth considering than giving us a stat boost that would arguably be counterbalanced by GW overpricing their cost in return.
Actually wounds going up may be a good thing IF it happens for all armies. Only ultra cheap infantry models could stay at 1W like Guardsmen, Gretchins, Cultists or some Aeldari. Vehicles could also go up in wounds.
This way we could get rid of that mid strenght weapons' abuse, as those kind of weapons are currently good against anything: infantries, elites and tanks. Increasing wounds here and there, increasing damage for anti tank weapons (like Thunder Hammers which already become flat 4 damage) and keeping anti infantry weapons as they are would be healthy for the game. No more 60 dead Boyz in one turn if they are 2W each or weapons like Disintegrator Cannons being as effective against tanks as Dark Lances if the latter deal flat 5-6 damage and tanks have +25-30%W.
Increasing durability, and killiness for some weapons, only for SM really makes no sense, even for GW's standards.
Issue with upping the wounds is theres no way GW does it in a blanket, at once effect. IF they did up a bunch of models to 2W right away across the board, it would be fine (and a few others go up as well to 3W, 4W, etc) More realistically it would be a per-codex thing, so initially it would be broken as gak for the first few armies as they have a ton more wounds for what feels like no extra cost.
I do agree the generic wound count needs to go up. I like the multiwound/damage system but its too low. "Big and tough" things feel squishy because D6 damage guns are more common than the models they are intended to kill, while flat2 damage guns are way too spammable atm. Either wounds need to be up'd across the board and at once, or weapon damage needs to drop. Thats why imo the T5 4-6W models are so dang tough to get rid of. Theyre generally in high enough numbers where the 2-3 units with proper anti-tank guns cant kill them fast enough, but the other weapons (high RoF 1d, medium RoF 2D) feels like you are firing way more points than you are killing against them.
It's a fair point. if they are going to increase wound counts who is going to be considered for said wound count and how are they going to implement it and when? When the marines we keep seeing these leaks datasheets are released perhaps? Will there be a big errata increasing the wound statistic for each army that will then be included in the eventual codex release?
Or will each army just have to twiddle their thumbs until their codex comes out. Like last edition waiting for faction rules and stratagems.
And what will get it? Medium infantry only perhaps? It'd be horrible to imagine guard infantry with 2 wounds a pop. And grots with it is just laughable. Ork boys? Maybe. You'd certainly hope nobs would get an extra wound because that's the only thing that stood them out from marines for many, many editions. Having our buggies get one or 2 a piece would be awesome, it'd let you hide the speedboss again, unless he got bumped up over the hiding margin as well, a pain in it's own right. Would stompas go to an even more laughable wound level? 60 wounds and still not worth it weeee!
Very, very curious what the next month or so will bring. This could lower lethality, as long as GW doesn't go nuts and give all chainswords -1ap and all powerweapons +1str and heavy melee weapons extra damage. Oh.... wait. Still intrigued though.
Also, people have mentioned that the look out sir has been modified and even the community page brought in orks and speedbosses. But unless i'm misunderstanding it changes very little for buggies hiding the speedboss as they become individual units correct? So it's still a -9 wound character unable to hide behind -10 wound vehicles. Only when you take vehicles that stay in a unit such as kans or koptas does it work correct? 2 koptas in a unit being able to hide said speedboss.
NVM, I was combining the 1st and 2nd lines to derp it up.
I'd love for boyz to go to 2 wounds per model and max 20 per unit, with a bonus attack for having 10 or more.
That said, GW might also just be trying to dodge the bullet for having to upgrade all the special snowflake units the various chapters have to primaris.
At this point, if I’m not gonna be able to play many games for a while (corona), is it worth buying Ghaz off eBay? Looks to be around $75, eventually GW has to sell him separately right?
i could see the new boy model out there being "Tuff Boyz" rather than them buffing boyz.
Somewhere between a nob and a boy. Why? Reason to buy new models, especially when everyone already has hundreds of boyz lol.
They could just bring Skarboyz (or Ardboyz) back as stand alone units, not a goff pre game strat. I could see them justifying 2W. They used to be available to all Orks, not just goffs. Atleast in 2nd edition.
Regular Boyz are the quintessential cheap cannon fodder unit though.
From the tiny glimpse of the model we saw it looked like the ork model teased was going to be bare chested with very little armor on the legs with what looked to be a squig shoulder pad right? Of if he was some sort of squig herder and they gave us a squig unit that would be very fun.
Page 77 – Da Pincha
Change this weapon’s ability to read:
‘Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack
with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this
weapon, if the target unit contains any Vehicle or Monster
models, the bearer has a WS characteristic of 2+ for that attack.’
I did not see that coming. Enjoy pinching stuff with your trukks
Well, so there will be faq, re-faq, update, update faq and update-re-faq every 5 days now or what? Is this a stadnard scenario during transfer from edition to edition? Now you can' t make a list on monday that wil by valid on Friday... and the rule changes jumping up from posts on facebook and app like from ambush. I'm slowly becoming unable to track all changes. Meeeerhhhh
Warboss on warbike replacement in my list for this Friday is the vanila Warboss sitting with 5 meganobz in Bonebreaker. Yes, me - the “transports does not work guy - I have meganobz in transport. This will be the only infanftry on the list. Rest is pure vehicle list with bunch of buggies (3xSJ, 3xSJD), 5x SMG, wazboom and bommer + wartrike. Ou yes and there is sitting 10 grots sad, that party is over!
And that is the topic - does it even worth to take 50p of grots to save 2CP for detachement?
And that is the topic - does it even worth to take 50p of grots to save 2CP for detachement?
It is actually 3CP since that is what it costs to get one of the *special* detachments.
I believe it is worth, but then again maybe it also is worth upgrading it to boyz for additional 30p?
Jidmah wrote: I'd love for boyz to go to 2 wounds per model and max 20 per unit, with a bonus attack for having 10 or more.
Horde buff that triggers at 11+ models makes sense since blast's bonus is triggered at 11+, not at 20+ like the +1A for boyz. This way trukk boyz and wagon boyz will be exactly on par on 30 man mobs, and choosing the squad's size only affects the style of playing, not the potential killiness of the unit.
And that is the topic - does it even worth to take 50p of grots to save 2CP for detachement?
It is actually 3CP since that is what it costs to get one of the *special* detachments.
I believe it is worth, but then again maybe it also is worth upgrading it to boyz for additional 30p?
And change the bonebreaker to battlewagon and put them a board to soak the damage after explosion? Maybe. It' s 15p more...
And that is the topic - does it even worth to take 50p of grots to save 2CP for detachement?
It is actually 3CP since that is what it costs to get one of the *special* detachments.
I believe it is worth, but then again maybe it also is worth upgrading it to boyz for additional 30p?
And change the bonebreaker to battlewagon and put them a board to soak the damage after explosion? Maybe. It' s 15p more...
You can't fit the warboss then (10 boyz/grots, 5 meganobz and a warboss are 21 seats), or you're forced to remove a meganob. Tipycally a wagon is better than a bonebreaka since 25 points are a lot of points, and being able to sacrify some cheap dude if the vehicle explodes is handy, but you need to choose what to put inside.
Alternatively you could bring the cheaper BW, replace 10 grots with 10 boyz with the spared points, put them and the warboss in it and tellyport the meganobz. It's a 2CP investment though.
And that is the topic - does it even worth to take 50p of grots to save 2CP for detachement?
It is actually 3CP since that is what it costs to get one of the *special* detachments.
I believe it is worth, but then again maybe it also is worth upgrading it to boyz for additional 30p?
And change the bonebreaker to battlewagon and put them a board to soak the damage after explosion? Maybe. It' s 15p more...
You can't fit the warboss then (10 boyz/grots, 5 meganobz and a warboss are 21 seats), or you're forced to remove a meganob. Tipycally a wagon is better than a bonebreaka since 25 points are a lot of points, and being able to sacrify some cheap dude if the vehicle explodes is handy, but you need to choose what to put inside.
Alternatively you could bring the cheaper BW, replace 10 grots with 10 boyz with the spared points, put them and the warboss in it and tellyport the meganobz. It's a 2CP investment though.
Isnt the point of the bonebreaker in 9th to T1 ramming speed an enemy unit before it reaches an objective, preferably blocking off the objective and buying time to wrack up points.
Its basically a glorifed melee unit that matchs up well against primaris.
In general, the capacity 20 is far more useful than the D6 more attacks you get ONCE since unlike marine's bonus attack the D6 only works if he actually charges. And after the wagon ramming speeds, GL getting a second charge because that thing is gonna get zerged either by bullets or models since its in the way now and killing things. Dont think ive ever gotten a wagon to charge more than once. Ive had it survive for an unusual amount of turns, but it never moved after its initial charge, things just kept dogpiling it.
Vineheart01 wrote: In general, the capacity 20 is far more useful than the D6 more attacks you get ONCE since unlike marine's bonus attack the D6 only works if he actually charges. And after the wagon ramming speeds, GL getting a second charge because that thing is gonna get zerged either by bullets or models since its in the way now and killing things. Dont think ive ever gotten a wagon to charge more than once. Ive had it survive for an unusual amount of turns, but it never moved after its initial charge, things just kept dogpiling it.
This is one of the issues which have me considering Bloodaxes for my next game. Falling back and then charging or shooting seemed a bit less than effective, but in my last game I kept wishing to be able to either charge again or move away and blow them all up.
Especially when my battlewagon ended up in CC with a few units of marines and a chapter master. I would have loved to fall back, shoot with the guys inside (who then cannot charge, shame) and then charge the wagon into one of the marine units, wipe it out, then consolidate into the other units I was in CC with just before - net result, still in CC, didn't charge them, but got my charge bonus and some shots off from the shootas inside. It would be a lot more helpful to me than the 6++ and rerolling one hit/wound/damage. I might even have wiped them all out sooner.
Alternative; fall back with the wagon, fire the boomer into the squads, and then charge with the wagon again. I feel bloodaxes will definitely be coming out next game! Shame flashgitz are clan-locked as freebootas...
The fall back and shoot OR charge bit and transports. Can you do that? Transports falls back, guys inside shoot, transport does not as it opts to charge instead. Guys inside never charged. Its not a "modifier" so open-topped wouldnt impose any restrictions to the guys inside that the transport opted to not fire and charge in. And the Bloodaxe rule just says the embarked unit has to be on a bloodaxe transport to benefit, not that it has to do the same choice.
I've always wanted to run a BW spam list and that might just make me attempt it lol
Does anyone know when we can use “get stuck in ladz” now. There is a flow chart on Goonhammer that seems to say that if an ork unit charged that turn they’d be able to fight twice prior to all other units that didn’t charge that turn. They could be interrupted if they opponent used the countercharge strat or had a unit that possessed the fight first ability. The original wording in the codex actually seems better suited to 9th that it did to 8th.
The fall back and shoot OR charge bit and transports. Can you do that? Transports falls back, guys inside shoot, transport does not as it opts to charge instead. Guys inside never charged.
Its not a "modifier" so open-topped wouldnt impose any restrictions to the guys inside that the transport opted to not fire and charge in. And the Bloodaxe rule just says the embarked unit has to be on a bloodaxe transport to benefit, not that it has to do the same choice.
I've always wanted to run a BW spam list and that might just make me attempt it lol
It would work, but locking yourself into BA is probably a bad idea.
You can achieve fall back and charge with the Evil Sun warlord trait, which is probably the stronger choice.
BA as a Patrol in your army, though, might have some play if their <CLAN> psychic power to turn off overwatch and screw with "fight last" is relevant in the meta.
Edit: I will say, you could have at least two "forktresses" on turn 1 with BA, though. Give one of the wagons a Forktress upgrade and it'll be 2+/5++ -- the other one has a MAKFF mek inside along with the BA trait, should be at a 3+, 5++.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Know thy enemy.
SM all variety going to two wounds, including chaos.
Prepare to get spanked until our new codex though. Weapons getting massive upgrades. But not until your codex drops.
The fall back and shoot OR charge bit and transports. Can you do that? Transports falls back, guys inside shoot, transport does not as it opts to charge instead. Guys inside never charged.
Its not a "modifier" so open-topped wouldnt impose any restrictions to the guys inside that the transport opted to not fire and charge in. And the Bloodaxe rule just says the embarked unit has to be on a bloodaxe transport to benefit, not that it has to do the same choice.
I've always wanted to run a BW spam list and that might just make me attempt it lol
I actually don't think you can do that. Although it would be cool. Because the restrictions of the bw also applies to the unit inside. They don't get their own set of that rule, they just piggyback off the bw rules. So if the bw falls back and opts to charge, the unit inside is also charging instead of shooting.
The rules are great for modifiers like the bs+1, but in this case, I think you can expect some resistance from your opposing player. If I'm wrong, feel free to say so, it'd be cool to play like this.
Jidmah wrote:I'd love for boyz to go to 2 wounds per model and max 20 per unit, with a bonus attack for having 10 or more.
Did you see what happened to Greenskinz in AoS? Boyz went away. Do you want GW to remove Boyz and your infantry options are Nob variants? That's essentially how GW would do what you suggested. Or a new $60 kit for 10 boyz but they are drastically different and 2W and you still cannot really use your generic boyz.
Asymmetric wrote:They could just bring Skarboyz (or Ardboyz) back as stand alone units, not a goff pre game strat. I could see them justifying 2W. They used to be available to all Orks, not just goffs. Atleast in 2nd edition.
Those models are lovely and great pain tjob. I have a lot of classics in my army. Well 2nd ed was drastically different. Orks were Brian Ansell's favourite so they got some amazing support and love.
The fall back and shoot OR charge bit and transports. Can you do that? Transports falls back, guys inside shoot, transport does not as it opts to charge instead. Guys inside never charged.
Its not a "modifier" so open-topped wouldnt impose any restrictions to the guys inside that the transport opted to not fire and charge in. And the Bloodaxe rule just says the embarked unit has to be on a bloodaxe transport to benefit, not that it has to do the same choice.
I've always wanted to run a BW spam list and that might just make me attempt it lol
I actually don't think you can do that. Although it would be cool. Because the restrictions of the bw also applies to the unit inside. They don't get their own set of that rule, they just piggyback off the bw rules. So if the bw falls back and opts to charge, the unit inside is also charging instead of shooting.
The rules are great for modifiers like the bs+1, but in this case, I think you can expect some resistance from your opposing player. If I'm wrong, feel free to say so, it'd be cool to play like this.
I have started a thread here to discuss this issue!
Fair points, even if it is allowed i probably still wouldnt run bloodaxe.
18" is such a dumb restriction, most things that has the reach to hit us at that distance has an AP to completely bypass it.
Like whats gonna pop our wagons T1? Autocannons? No, lascannons and other heavy cannon variants that have AP3-4 anyway, which brings us right back to the 5++ with or without cover.
Only units it actually helps dont stay outside of 18", either because theyre assaulty or have super short guns so even if they are outside 18" they wont be for long.
While i dont want the model to go away because thats a LOT of plasticcrack that is 100% useless that every ork player has, and you will always have that random guy that does like green tide for some reason get really mad his total number of models dropped by like 30%, but i do wish boyz were more powerful so i didnt need AS many of them.
Not to mention in their current form theyre largely useless outside the random Deathskullz rokkit shot or full 30man blobs. If they were retuned to be 5-20 but were tougher/deadlier as well, the transport vs footslog wouldnt be as big of an issue. You wouldnt be paying for a rule you almost never, ever get to use (20+ = +1 attack)
I could easily see the TuskaDaemonkilla orks potentially being another codex though where they are essentially AoS orks. Low count by comparison in terms of number of bodies, but theyre tough cookies.
I mean, if they wanted they could easily port over the iron jawz stuff into 40K like they did with the Tzeentchian stuff to ThousandSons. A sort of half way between nobs and meganobs. Less armor, more wounds and more big choppa type attacks. (or somewhere in that area.)
I would love to see more variety in our infantry. 2 wounds boys would be ace - 2 wound boys with a bit of armour would be amazing. Certainly worth running in trukks!
I still want to see some squig units. A faster, lighter infantry mulching option. Mind you we still don't lack the ability to kill infantry with most list types, but i'd like more options to support the midfield. You can jump a big unit of boyz or nobs into the opponants side. But then the question is, what's supporting them to get that critical threat saturation? Stormboyz, bikers, deffkoptas maybe? But none of those options would be considered incredible efficiency. Maybe you could zoom a bunch of vehicles up there? A trio of shokkjumps with the kustom job wouldn't be a bad option for first turn saturation.
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.
But all of this just leads to the issue of wtf is Gw wasting everyone’s time with a 10th edition points update to immediately invalidate it with each codex by increasing wounds and points across the board...they should of just rereleased the index or better yet just put all these wound and points changes in the app as updated 8th datasheets for free!!! People would still buy the new codexs with new units and whatever updated rules they wanted to throw in.
10th edition feels extremely rushed even though the rules team seems to have an idea of how they want certain things to change such as flamers and melta and Wounds and points and heavy bolters and power weapons all fundamentally changing. It’s just very piecemail as they are doing it and creating massive imbalance issues.
Also the fact this update confirmed the castellan knight at ~630 pts really drives home how badly the stompa is overcosted.....
I completely forgot the name of the detachment whoops. Here I was thinking we had some sleeper stratagem I was unaware of.
But you need the Prince with last 2 wounds and some luck with the Ramming Speed 
terminators are going to 3w.... 
