5pt grots will never make sense until Guard go up in points.
Or even cultists for that matter (which are worse than guard and more expensive)

I'm personally not eager on the idea of 2 wound Boyz. I like the idea of boyz being more than double the number of space marines on the table top. I am actually happy about this change on the whole, as I know a lot of players who miss using their old marines and a lot of chaos players who have felt left behind.
If I had to ask for a change to boyz it'd be to buff armour saves a tad bit, looks like AP is getting power crept again and just having an a 5+ and ard boyz at a 4+ would be nice.

What I am actually expecting to come from this change is this 12" change to flamers will apply to burnas and skorchas too. That could put burna boyz back on the table (though they still might need more work) and if it doesn't it makes the skorchas and kombi skorchas valid picks.

I think 2 wound boys are very probable.

Think of the 9th as this sort of thing:

Less models, more impactful.

Boys going up to like.. 10 points, but two wound each? That's more impactful, and also makes it a lot easier to splash a couple squads, because they can actually take some punishment.

We'll see, though. Honestly, it would be the best thing for a number of our units to increase in wounds... Nobs to 3 (so heavy bolters don't one shot them), Mega Nobs to 4, Nob Bikers to 4...

I'm of two minds about making boyz 2 wounds and upping their cost. Ork boyz durability has always been their pts to wounds ratio. Having more bodies than your opponent has bullets before they get overwhelmed. If boyz get more wounds they're going to be more vulnerable to the D2 weapons that are already fairly common and likely to get even more common as multi wound models fill the meta.

Up boyz to two wounds doesn't make them more vulnerable to D2 weapons, it makes them just as vulnerable to them as they are now, but less vulnerable to D1 weapons which are usually the best way to get rid of a large number of boyz.
You'd basically have the same phenomenon as you have with smasha guns - the aren't actually susceptible to anti-tank weapons because those guns can't efficiently kill them, even if they are the best guns for the job.

In general, I'd love to see a chance to boyz that makes them less of a chore to play and build. The only way to do that is by reducing the model count while increase each models power and durability.

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

YEs wounds same but models die less. And 3 pts more for tacticals. This is already known FACT. Tac marine with 2 wounds is 18 pts. So worth of shooting nearly halved.

Ork boyy with 4 attacks killed 6.666666 pts worth of tacticals. Now 4 pts. 40% drop in efficiency and they weren't stellar at it.

So boyz will be just for sitting objectives. Forget actually using them to kill stuff. IF you don't have damage 2 you are too inefficient to attack.

Seriously guys, it's quite clear that the 5pt gretchin and 8pt ork boyz were not motivated by having them balanced against guardsmen or intercessors.

They want ork armies to look like they do in their publications. Have two units of boyz, a unit of gretchin and toyz for the rest of the army. But no matter what they do, we always fall back on boyz and gretchin as solid backbone of our army and just flood the board with them.

They simply don't want us to flood the board with our troops, so they broke our back and turned them into pure tax, forcing us into building armies they way the envision.
For the same reason cultists went up and guardsmen didn't. They want to sculpt armies into a certain shape. Both GW employees and play testers hinted at this during multiple streams.

I don't think such a heavy-handed change is a good thing, but either way any discussion about whether orks and gretchin are balanced against other units is moot when the motivation behind the change wasn't motivated by balance in the first place.

 Jidmah wrote:
Seriously guys, it's quite clear that the 5pt gretchin and 8pt ork boyz were not motivated by having them balanced against guardsmen or intercessors.

...

They want ork armies to look like they do in their publications. Have two units of boyz, a unit of gretchin and toyz for the rest of the army. But no matter what they do, we always fall back on boyz and gretchin as solid backbone of our army and just flood the board with them.

And look at the two armies that top their GTs: 1 flooded the board with boys (Ghaz Goff spam), the other IGNORED them completely (buggy spam, no boys).

They are in such an awkward space from a design perspective. They aren't killy enough per point to be worth it; they do help with board control, but really only if you spam them, because they die so easily.

I would love to be able to field 1-2 mid sized walking boy squads unironically. I think the only way to do that, if weapons are getting EVEN killier (shots are probably going up, damage is going up, range on stuff like Flamers is going up), is if boys get tankier or cheaper. They aren't going for cheaper, so I expect they'll get something like an extra wound.

tneva82 wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

YEs wounds same but models die less. And 3 pts more for tacticals. This is already known FACT. Tac marine with 2 wounds is 18 pts. So worth of shooting nearly halved.

Ork boyy with 4 attacks killed 6.666666 pts worth of tacticals. Now 4 pts. 40% drop in efficiency and they weren't stellar at it.

So boyz will be just for sitting objectives. Forget actually using them to kill stuff. IF you don't have damage 2 you are too inefficient to attack.

18pts for the base model weapon profiles are changing and likely going up. Plus as said before you already have less tactical models becuase thier points increase. Furthermore it was flat out said all armies will get upgrades and point updates including boys so comparing unupgraded boys vs unreleased upgrades marines isn’t exactly a fair comparison even if I think Gw release schedule of this update is bad.

The point being if grots stay 5 pts and everything else including basic guard infantry go up in points then grots will be better relatively since they once again become a low cost option instead of the poor cost comparatively option they are now.

I think Gw is just trying to make the game quicker pace by making the board smaller, increasing points, dropping an entire round, forcing armies to get more mobile through missions, and putting a larger focus on monster/vehicles. I also think the changes to weapons and wounds was planned with 9th edition release but for whatever reason Gw chose to piece mail those changes through new codexs instead of redoing a massive index like the last edition.

Just thinkin' out loud (only type I can do really, at least my lips have to move). But I might be happy if they maybe leaned into the "Mechanized horde" aspect of orks. Up the capacity of our transports and give us the ability to charge after the transport has moved. (with a suitable penalty, mortal wounds or such).
It'd keep the pace up (moving one trukk is much quicker than 15/20 boyz), it'd give us that "they die in droves but just keep coming" aspect that I like... and thematically, I just love the visual of the trukk screeching to a halt whilst a ball of screamin boyz gets unceremoniously ejected from the bonnet.
Dunno, I might take that over an extra wound and points increase...

If that's the intended result it's a hamfisted way to do it, much better of just using classic 0-1, 0-2, 0-3 unit limitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


It beats the old style where stuff was left broken for a year or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 some bloke wrote:
I would love to see more variety in our infantry. 2 wounds boys would be ace - 2 wound boys with a bit of armour would be amazing. Certainly worth running in trukks!

So... Nobs?

WaaaghPolice wrote:
Just thinkin' out loud (only type I can do really, at least my lips have to move). But I might be happy if they maybe leaned into the "Mechanized horde" aspect of orks. Up the capacity of our transports and give us the ability to charge after the transport has moved. (with a suitable penalty, mortal wounds or such).
It'd keep the pace up (moving one trukk is much quicker than 15/20 boyz), it'd give us that "they die in droves but just keep coming" aspect that I like... and thematically, I just love the visual of the trukk screeching to a halt whilst a ball of screamin boyz gets unceremoniously ejected from the bonnet.
Dunno, I might take that over an extra wound and points increase...

I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army

Wishlisting furiously, I would make trukks cheaper by 5-10 points, and give the trukk and battlewagon a rule that an embarked Ork unit can charge out of it as long as it remains open topped. If I didn't make them cheaper, I'd up trukks to 16 capacity. If it needs a downside, then d3 mortal wounds on a successful charge.

If we can't have Orks charging out of their transports, then how about a rule that says that if the transport is within engagement range, then one (and only one) embarked unit can make melee attacks as if it too were in engagement range. If that's too good, then make it a cheap strat or something but let all the embarked units attack.


I'm just not keen on 2W boys. I can see why marines got 2W apiece, but if boys get more wounds they will get even more expensive, and making them less viable, and taking away from the endless green tide fluff.

Technically orks can already attack from inside a transport, but its only against vehicles and its a stratagem.

I almost never remember it exists. It isnt very good either as its 1 attack per model.

 Afrodactyl wrote:


I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army
...

Mad Max: The Army.

Can someone hire a plane to write this in the sky above GW HQ? It's such a simple, one line sell, but it buys into so much of the Armaggeddon and other fluff that the execs would EAT THIS UP!

theyre already kinda going that route so might as well go full force into it.
I mean, majority of what we got thats actually good right now is a vehicle.

WaaaghPolice wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:


I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army
...

Mad Max: The Army.

Can someone hire a plane to write this in the sky above GW HQ? It's such a simple, one line sell, but it buys into so much of the Armaggeddon and other fluff that the execs would EAT THIS UP!

Most of our vehicles already look like they've been copy/pasted out of a Fury Road action sequence, just give us the rules for it!


Also, 30" range bolters are now a thing. I'm really hoping that GW are just going to cycle through each codex giving them all similar updates and buffs, and that it won't be just Imperium armies (but let's be real it's clearly just for marines) getting the buffs.

I refuse to go back to the 'sky is falling' attitude I had when 9th dropped. I'll remain optimistic even if it kills me.


:EDIT:
Just add a retcon line of fluff that says Ghaz found his old car keys and remembered that cars are cooler than walking. Or Wazdakka has taken the reins from Big G.

Or hell bring Wazdakka back, give him a sidecar and stick Ghaz in that.

 Afrodactyl wrote:


Or hell bring Wazdakka back, give him a sidecar and stick Ghaz in that.

insert Wallace and Gromit Gif here.

They said all armies are getting redesigned old modles/wargear not just marines.
All they didnt say, is when. Thats my only fear about this, if its like in early 8th theres gonna be a near year period where most people just dont play because they didnt get "their turn" yet

Orks are getting buffs, we just have no idea on what, how, or when.

I'm guessing we're an early codex based on that teaser.

SoB, Orks, Dark Eldar, Nurgle I think we're on it?

And even the word on some of the battle report channels, some of the guys seem to be hinting there is stuff they have (A couple of them are big Orks fans), it seems like we just need to hustle down until maybe Christmas, or early next year.

No offense to my speed freak friends here, but i like orkz being the crazy amalgamation army that they are. It really pisses me off that Killa Kanz are functionally useless right now, as is the stompa and most of our vehicles that aren't buggies and hell, all of our infantry just got hit with a nerf hammer. A Heavy Bolter is now slaughtering nobz like its cool. The buffs SM players are getting is wonderful for them, but if it takes GW a long time to release updates for everyone else's army its going to be a Similar to 7th edition Space Elves, where players refuse to play against them and the elves have to play with themselves or tone their lists down to hamstring everything they have.

And yeah, that actually happened to every single Space Elf player in my area.

Once again, complaining about marines is against this thread's rules. Please join one of the dozen of threads about the new leaks if you feel like discussing this topic.

Remember when we all thought ghaz was overpriced and bad rules wise...
then Gw nerfed all our main competitive options and raised the price on most things until ghaz became competitive...
Good times!!!
(They also gave him adv and charge)

Just remember it is not bad if you simply make all other options worse!!!- GW rules writing note of the Day

Just had a recent 1000 point game with trukks and buggies as my main army list, using a Warboss on foot now that the Warboss on Bike is no longer a thing *shakes fist angrily*. I ran him with a Deffkilla Wartrike and he was still surprisingly decent with the mandatory Biggest Boss and Killa Klaw upgrade. I thought his lack of mobility compared to the Biker boss would make him dead weight, but as long as you position him correctly with his transport, and stick to one of the main objectives in the middle where things will inevitably be duking out, he does the job in helping clear threatening multi-wound models that can give our buggies trouble. Given that most buggies/wartrike are fast enough to get Engage on All Fronts and either go after objectives/murder as needed, I feel like it wasn't as big as I loss as I first feared. I probably won't make him my Warlord again though, just because he's too much of a high risk target at that point if he's fighting near the scrum in the middle.

I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

miscNouns wrote:
I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

Zagstruk is probably fine. The issue is HQ slots. In a list that might include him, you are probably fighting it out with Ghaz, a warboss, weirdboys, and KFF Meks. He probably won't make the cut.

I'd say no to Stormboyz. The main issue is they went up 33% from the previous edition (9 -> 12 points)... that 10 man unit could net you 3 Mega Nobs with double saw, which I would take in a heart beat. Or a Deff dread. Or a Buggy. Too expensive for what they do.

miscNouns wrote:
I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

Zagstruk as mentioned above me is himself okay, but unfortunately, the unit he synergizes most is pretty much grot poop at the moment. Compared to kommandos (which is where their price point should be tbh), stormboyz are very lacking for the premium you pay given how fragile they are and the lack of damage output they have. You're better off with more boyz than taking them if you're going for a green tide-esque Goff list, using either Da Jump or Tellyportaz to get them to where you need them to be.

Another game with buggy list last night againts guard with a lot of leman russes and lot of guardsman.

My list 3xSJD, 3xScrapJet, 5x SMG, wartrike, wazboom, bu-bommer and battlewagon filled with 10 boyz, 4MAN and Warboss with squig. Deathskulls

- I deploy 5 SMG in line 9” from the edge, 6” in between. Works hilarious. Fire in the narrow LOS across the field for few points, sometimes moves a little bit without penalties. And makes perfect screen in my backfield againts DS + control objective
- SJD are the best, but 3 of them is a max. They control the board, objectives and do a really serious damage.
- SJ are the real workhorse. Do a lot of damage (btw. Have you seen, than their weapon profile is similar like leman russ battlecannon?), deal a MW in charge to finish stuff and die first, because everybody shoots on this source of mass rocket fire.
- wartrike flamers improved by kustom job are.... working at least? First time use it againts ideal target (20 guardsman) and it was not so impresive.
- Engage on all fronts with 3xSJD is better and easier to gain than Linebreaker
- eadbut “just” 21 MW this time
- 4 MANz with killsawa get in touch with leman russ tank commander. Just 2 of them was in close combat. I used Hit them harder and Get stuck in Ladz and this 2 MAN annihilated this tank ace in to dust.
- when the wazboom has a luck, it can kill leman russ itself.
- I think about 3 more SJs. Or KBB. However, the dense terrain makes a real trafic jams. Seriously. Buggies have a fat bases and it',s the main topic. How to move them and do not stuck in some “neck”.
- BW with deffrolla is epic model. And it' s epic to play. I take it back on table after 2 years and hey, it' s cool and like Forktress, it works.

Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?

crzylgs wrote:
Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?

I am guessing Smasha Mek Gun? SMG?

crzylgs wrote:
Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?

Not sure about the question but SMG = smasha gun and it smash units on 48” a lot is it an answer?

Table on the end of my T1. You cannot see much of his leman russes, because they are already dead (not enought LOS blocking terrain IMHO) and the smoke in the top right corner is the exploded burna bommer

^^ yes - thank you both

Smasha Gun makes perfect sense. I'm coming back to 40k after a while out and couldn't think straight.

I like your list, looks a lot of fun to play!

Edit - oooh nice looking table and well painted models, very cool.

 Tomsug wrote:
Another game with buggy list last night againts guard with a lot of leman russes and lot of guardsman.

My list 3xSJD, 3xScrapJet, 5x SMG, wartrike, wazboom, bu-bommer and battlewagon filled with 10 boyz, 4MAN and Warboss with squig. Deathskulls

- I deploy 5 SMG in line 9” from the edge, 6” in between. Works hilarious. Fire in the narrow LOS across the field for few points, sometimes moves a little bit without penalties. And makes perfect screen in my backfield againts DS + control objective
- SJD are the best, but 3 of them is a max. They control the board, objectives and do a really serious damage.
- SJ are the real workhorse. Do a lot of damage (btw. Have you seen, than their weapon profile is similar like leman russ battlecannon?), deal a MW in charge to finish stuff and die first, because everybody shoots on this source of mass rocket fire.
- wartrike flamers improved by kustom job are.... working at least? First time use it againts ideal target (20 guardsman) and it was not so impresive.
- Engage on all fronts with 3xSJD is better and easier to gain than Linebreaker
- eadbut “just” 21 MW this time
- 4 MANz with killsawa get in touch with leman russ tank commander. Just 2 of them was in close combat. I used Hit them harder and Get stuck in Ladz and this 2 MAN annihilated this tank ace in to dust.
- when the wazboom has a luck, it can kill leman russ itself.
- I think about 3 more SJs. Or KBB. However, the dense terrain makes a real trafic jams. Seriously. Buggies have a fat bases and it',s the main topic. How to move them and do not stuck in some “neck”.
- BW with deffrolla is epic model. And it' s epic to play. I take it back on table after 2 years and hey, it' s cool and like Forktress, it works.

Thanks for the report and cool list! Did you use the kustom jobs for the SJD and scrapjets?

 Dendarien wrote:


Thanks for the report and cool list! Did you use the kustom jobs for the SJD and scrapjets?

Yes. Gyro and corkscrew. Btw. I have never used the corkscrew yet. I seriously think about to change it to the Squig tyres for extra move, because 10” is pretty slow...

 Tomsug wrote:

crzylgs wrote:
Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?

Not sure about the question but SMG = smasha gun and it smash units on 48” a lot is it an answer?

Table on the end of my T1. You cannot see much of his leman russes, because they are already dead (not enought LOS blocking terrain IMHO) and the smoke in the top right corner is the exploded burna bommer

From afar the army looks sick!

 Tomsug wrote:

crzylgs wrote:
Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?

Not sure about the question but SMG = smasha gun and it smash units on 48” a lot is it an answer?

Table on the end of my T1. You cannot see much of his leman russes, because they are already dead (not enought LOS blocking terrain IMHO) and the smoke in the top right corner is the exploded burna bommer

Love those Skrapjetbike conversions, might have to steal the concept.

Steal it! In my gallery there, you can see some details.

But anyhow - this topic is about tactics. So srapjets with corkscrew or squig tyres?

Had a game today. This time I played as csm that my friend brought while I landed him some of my orks. I got no buggies tho, so, some were his, some were proxies.
Twas a 1k pt game and orks ran a buggy list containing: trike, 3 scraps, 2 sjd, 3 mek gunz, trukkboyz
Csm ran Abaddon, sorc, 2 defilers, 1 helbrute, 2*5 Marines, 10 cultists.

There was some severe lack of cover due to us playing at the dacha (country house) and not at the city gaming club. I think that impacted the game quite a lot cause orks removed half the cam army turn 1.
Unfortunately for orks, csm proved to be exceptionally good in mellee vs buggies and 500 pt of csm wrecked 500 pt of orks in return.
We played just 2 turns but it was a single mek gun and 1 sjd remaining vs 8 cultists, 2 Marines and a 10-wound defiler. Decided to call it even and proceed drinking tea and eating tasties.

Some highlights:
-Kustom job wartrike with a deathskull warlord trait sniped a sorc turn 1. It's a valid tactic I haven't considered previously.
-Buggies are very good vs vehicle lists. Scrapjet one-shot a helbrute turn 1, 2 sjd shot 11 wounds off a t7 5++ defiler like no big deal. Later on, 1 sjd took 7 wounds off abaddon with 4++ and a rule to halve received wounds.
-Buggies don't hold a punch. And if you bunch them up, get multi charged and wrecked by something nasty like defilers or abaddon. Got to keep distance both from friends and foes.
- Boyz didn't do anything. Were a complete waste of pts and just offered effective targets for bolters and auto guns after the trukk got shot down by a defiler.
- Mek gunz (3 auto-hitting ones) might be ok but buggies do compete with then now. Not sure what's better if you still got slots for more buggies.

Here's a photo. Once again, don't judge too harsh.

 koooaei wrote:
Had a game today. This time I played as csm that my friend brought while I landed him some of my orks. I got no buggies tho, so, some were his, some were proxies.
Twas a 1k pt game and orks ran a buggy list containing: trike, 3 scraps, 2 sjd, 3 mek gunz, trukkboyz
Csm ran Abaddon, sorc, 2 defilers, 1 helbrute, 2*5 Marines, 10 cultists.

There was some severe lack of cover due to us playing at the dacha (country house) and not at the city gaming club. I think that impacted the game quite a lot cause orks removed half the cam army turn 1.
Unfortunately for orks, csm proved to be exceptionally good in mellee vs buggies and 500 pt of csm wrecked 500 pt of orks in return.
We played just 2 turns but it was a single mek gun and 1 sjd remaining vs 8 cultists, 2 Marines and a 10-wound defiler. Decided to call it even and proceed drinking tea and eating tasties.

Some highlights:
-Kustom job wartrike with a deathskull warlord trait sniped a sorc turn 1. It's a valid tactic I haven't considered previously.
-Buggies are very good vs vehicle lists. Scrapjet one-shot a helbrute turn 1, 2 sjd shot 11 wounds off a t7 5++ defiler like no big deal. Later on, 1 sjd took 7 wounds off abaddon with 4++ and a rule to halve received wounds.
-Buggies don't hold a punch. And if you bunch them up, get multi charged and wrecked by something nasty like defilers or abaddon. Got to keep distance both from friends and foes.
- Boyz didn't do anything. Were a complete waste of pts and just offered effective targets for bolters and auto guns after the trukk got shot down by a defiler.
- Mek gunz (3 auto-hitting ones) might be ok but buggies do compete with then now. Not sure what's better if you still got slots for more buggies.

Here's a photo. Once again, don't judge too harsh.

Spoiler:

Thanks for sharing! I'm surprised to see you went for the Opportunist route for the Wartrike, most lists I see don't have him as their Warlord since he's comparatively fragile to a Biggest Boss upgraded Warboss, even if it is now only relegated to the foot version. Do you feel like you'd take him again with the WL trait? I feel that with his speed and how it's harder for characters to gain LoS that it might not even be necessary in some cases.

Also, out of curiosity, what were your trukkboyz equipped with? While I definitely agree they are a liability the instant they're forced out of their transports (no other options for us tbh when grots are so expensive), having the kombi-rokkit on the Nob with Deffskullz and being shoota boyz means that for the most part, while the trukk lives, that their dakka output is relatively decent for plinking wounds off of units and dealing with chaff.

Though like you said, you were playing an atypical game with the terrain not being the norm, so I wouldn't take the results of your battle without its full context. At least it sounded like you had fun!

So seems like a fair few people are getting the vibe that boyz in trukks just don't hold enough impact, and well all know in their current status grots are hilariously over priced.

Do you peeps reckon it's worth biting the CP bullet and building around one of the detachments that don't give you CP back? That's an extra couple hundred points you can use for other units in other slots. Mind you i'm not a deffskull player so can't really just plonk any old infantry with obsec onto an objective.

 Grimskul wrote:

Thanks for sharing! I'm surprised to see you went for the Opportunist route for the Wartrike, most lists I see don't have him as their Warlord since he's comparatively fragile to a Biggest Boss upgraded Warboss, even if it is now only relegated to the foot version. Do you feel like you'd take him again with the WL trait? I feel that with his speed and how it's harder for characters to gain LoS that it might not even be necessary in some cases.

Also, out of curiosity, what were your trukkboyz equipped with? While I definitely agree they are a liability the instant they're forced out of their transports (no other options for us tbh when grots are so expensive), having the kombi-rokkit on the Nob with Deffskullz and being shoota boyz means that for the most part, while the trukk lives, that their dakka output is relatively decent for plinking wounds off of units and dealing with chaff.

Though like you said, you were playing an atypical game with the terrain not being the norm, so I wouldn't take the results of your battle without its full context. At least it sounded like you had fun!

cody.d. wrote:
So seems like a fair few people are getting the vibe that boyz in trukks just don't hold enough impact, and well all know in their current status grots are hilariously over priced.

Do you peeps reckon it's worth biting the CP bullet and building around one of the detachments that don't give you CP back? That's an extra couple hundred points you can use for other units in other slots. Mind you i'm not a deffskull player so can't really just plonk any old infantry with obsec onto an objective.

Trukkboyz had rokkit, kombirokkit and a klaw. We had nowhere to spend 30 pts. And now, in the hindsight, mek might have been better for scoring as he could have hidden in ruins and just provide easier secondary pts from "hold 3-4 quarters".Or could have even fixed sjd. Anyways, boyz did feel like a tax cause they cost like a buggy yet require a trukk, have quite below average shooting and don't hold even the weakest punch to hold onto objective. They are indeed just a tax unit. As for taking them or not, it's hard to say. Orks really lacked cp. They were basically over turn 1 and than he just got +1 for being battleforgee each turn. If he didn't get 3 cp refunded for bringing trukkboyz, it'd been even worse. Hard to tell yet. I'm fairly disappointed with them. And I have >100 boyz and 3 trukks. I think, you could easily replace them with grots and save 30 pts. I did it in 8th and it was worthwhile. In larger games...maybe if you're running a gun wagon and need more Dakka each turn - especially since -1 to hit is so easy to obtain now, from what I read.

As for the warlord trait, we gave it a try and it was a thing. You can't always clear the way to shoot at a character. Both the trike and 4++ boss are not tough enough to survive early on. Heck, Abaddon himself got basically one-shot by a single sjj. And he halves received wounds. I'm not sure if parking lots with buff characters are still a thing, but if they are, a burns bomber's eadbutt + sniper trike will have decent chances at taking out any support character.

One way to use a boyz (or grots) seems to be to put 10 in BW with meganobz and let them die during explosion instead of meganobz and fill 1 mandatory troop slot in Patrol.

The second is green tide army. I ' ve registred a couple of people celebrationg victory with army like this.

Truckboyz like supporting objective grabers failed in my games also because of the same reason and give them a rocket launcher was a waste of points.

I managed to fly back to Ireland and create a 9th edition Nerd Mecca on the coast in a tent large enought to fit a 40k board. I got 8 games in against 3 opponents. 2 were custodes (running variations of an all foot termie list and a termie and bike mixed list) with the third being a deathguard list (3 PBC list with their new 4++ PA relic) (Deathguard player also had tsons but the orks never played them.)

I finished 4:4 but with the majority of wins coming at the end as I got used to how orks play in 9th.

I tried some varients but by the end my list was as below




Deathskulls patrol gave my MANZ obsec and the reroll bonuses for hitting and wounded helped the battlewagon. The cybork body and 6++ helped to make the warboss on foot slightly more survivable since you can't take the bigger boss and its lovely 4++ if ghaz is in your army

The mixed detachment gave me access to the skarboyz strat, the showin off strat for the tankbustas and the drive by shooting for the deffkopta (this allowed me to get engage on all fronts t1 easily)

The painboy has the kunnin but brutal warlord strat allowing me to relocate himself and d3 of the other goffs (allowing me to relocate at a minimum Ghaz or the burna bommer depending on me going first or second) the medi squig strat giving ghaz d3 wounds back is a necessity. The 6+++ he gave to the boyz was a nice bonus

Points to take away:

Ghaz is a beast and is hands down the nicest model I've ever owned. The painboy (who should be hidden from snipers/custodes that can snipe) means it will take at a minimum of 4 turns to get rid of him. I tried Makari but honestly the type of weapons and number of shots means the 6+++ for Ghaz didn't often work out. His 2++ was a pain but seeing as the painboy is better he's redundant.

I missed out on the goff exploding 6s but 1) 30 boyz don't need exploding sixes 2) if they're near ghaz (which they should be with such a large footprint) they get +1 attack and reroll 1s to hit.

Speaking of...30 boyz is still good.......maybe even better. Against 3 PBC mortars with flat 6 shots each (and reroll all wounds) you're still only taking around 5 casualties on average if you have the kff and painboy nearby. Same maths for basilisks. New morale means the squad survives after taking a pummeling which is huge especially for secondaries like raise the banner and data intercept. I tried multiple 10 boyz squads in earlier games but they require so much less shooting to disappear. The threat of green tiding them is way less.

MANZ were good especially loaded into the battlewagon. MANZ on foot can still shift if supported by either ghaz or the warboss allowing them to advance and charge. point to note DO NOT START THEM IN DENSE COVER. A 2" move will mean they'll struggle to get out in one go

Tankbustas are the bomb especially combo'd with da jump. Its nice when they survive but its all about trading up with them. I love bomb squigs. Against a vehicle heavy list the more dakka strat combo'd with showin off is lethal. Custodes do have a way to turn off all rerolls on one unit (normally the telemon) so fire the bs2+ bombsquigs into that unit (especially when they explode on 5s) and the rokkits into any fly vehicles.

Burna bommer is mega. The ability to relocate him using kunnin but brutal is clutch. Going first and Flying eadbutt t1 leaves a sour taste in your opponents mouth. Removing a couple of custodian guard t1 will leave a smile on yours. Honestly i flying eadbutted him t1 every game I played.

Overall I think orks are in a really good place. Tough to play and fairly unforgiving but still damned fun.

I am considering replacing the weirdboy with two deathskull deffkoptas and putting the tankbustas in deep strike with the teleporta strat which would open up the abhor the witch secondary and keep them safe t1. Deffkoptas don't look great on first glance but they allow you to focus on "engage on all fronts". Also I've converted 3 custodes bikes into them so I'm looking to use them

Two points did come up over the week.

1) Whether using "get stuck in ladz" on a unit that charged means it can fight twice before any of your opponents units that didn't charge, I didn't try it but if you can then that squad of 30 skarboyz or the MANZ are even better

2) If a custodes biker squad "swooning dives" into you do they get to fight before even your own units that charged. I don't have the wording of the strat with me but if anyone knows please reply

Any questions welcome





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why my flag comes up as russian federation I don't know....

cody.d. wrote:
So seems like a fair few people are getting the vibe that boyz in trukks just don't hold enough impact, and well all know in their current status grots are hilariously over priced.

Do you peeps reckon it's worth biting the CP bullet and building around one of the detachments that don't give you CP back? That's an extra couple hundred points you can use for other units in other slots. Mind you i'm not a deffskull player so can't really just plonk any old infantry with obsec onto an objective.

I have considered but i run out of heavy support or fast attack slots then :/

CaptainO wrote:

1) Whether using "get stuck in ladz" on a unit that charged means it can fight twice before any of your opponents units that didn't charge, I didn't try it but if you can then that squad of 30 skarboyz or the MANZ are even better

The stratagem can only be used at the end of the fight phase.

2) If a custodes biker squad "swooning dives" into you do they get to fight before even your own units that charged. I don't have the wording of the strat with me but if anyone knows please reply

Yes, they do, it's one of the few rules that allows you to fight before units that fight first.

Thanks Jidmah.

The reason there is a bit of dispute about "get stuck in lads" is that in the 9th rulebook it states

"If a rule allow a unit to fight again then it will pile in make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to Fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase your opponent can chose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time(you need not use both of the units oppurtunities to fight - unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with. If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interurupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be use to fight in between the units first and second fight."

Its the bit there that says "if such a unit charged this turn it will still fight both times before any units that didnt charge".

Similarly there is flowchart that on goonhammer that seems to think you no longer have to wait till the end. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

 Tomsug wrote:
One way to use a boyz (or grots) seems to be to put 10 in BW with meganobz and let them die during explosion instead of meganobz and fill 1 mandatory troop slot in Patrol.

The second is green tide army. I ' ve registred a couple of people celebrationg victory with army like this.

Truckboyz like supporting objective grabers failed in my games also because of the same reason and give them a rocket launcher was a waste of points.

I agree about rokkits, take them only if you have 10-20 spared points and no idea how to use them. While embarked they can't even benefit from the Deathskullz re-rolls.

Trukk boyz are good (decent actually) if you have tons of T5+ bodies. But really a lot, not just a BW, two trukks and a flyer in a 2000 points game. For just +30 (or +40 if nob has a killsaw) points I'd suggest replacing those grots with boyz unless you really struggle with points.

CaptainO wrote:
Thanks Jidmah.

The reason there is a bit of dispute about "get stuck in lads" is that in the 9th rulebook it states

"If a rule allow a unit to fight again then it will pile in make close combat attacks and consolidate again. Treat each time a unit is selected to Fight as a separate unit being selected to fight for all rules purposes. This means that after it has fought for the first time in a phase your opponent can chose an eligible unit to fight with before you fight with your unit for a second time(you need not use both of the units oppurtunities to fight - unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fight with. If such a unit charged this turn, it will still fight both times before any units that did not charge. Note that any rule that interurupts the normal sequence of who fights first can be use to fight in between the units first and second fight."

Its the bit there that says "if such a unit charged this turn it will still fight both times before any units that didnt charge".

Similarly there is flowchart that on goonhammer that seems to think you no longer have to wait till the end. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

That doesn't matter at all and is probably aimed at unit like berzerkers which just fight twice as part of their rules.

The stratagem explicitly says "play at the end of the fight phase". You play the stratagem, you fight immediately. If there are still other units eligible to fight, it's not the end of the fight phase and therefore you cannot use the stratagem.

Ya you're probably right. The faq that changed the original wording to that strikes again. Tbh being able to fight twice consecutively would be OP.

Were beserkers able to fight back to back in 8th edition?

Well, I had a test game against Blood Angels where we approximated the upcoming Space Marine changes.

-We added 4ppm and +1W to a 7-man squad of Death Company

-We used the new weapons profiles for HOGC, melta rifles, power fists/power weapons, and the weaponry on the Invictor Warsuit. We did not add any pts cost for these improvements

Still ended up winning the game relatively convincingly. My opponent handed my Killa Klaw biggest boss a massive killcount by hugely underestimating his threat range as Evil Sunz hopping out of a Bonebreaka turn 1, where he proceeded to instakill a Repulsor (killing one of the Bladeguard that was inside it) then he was able to stay alive vs a squad of BA assault intercessors thanks to his invul, interrupt and kill the captain, then Orks is Never Beaten to kill the Bladeguard and a few intercessors after they killed him. I spent 5CP on the boss and he killed nearly 650pts all by himself.

I think the current competitive buggy/Kustom Job spamming lists will still have good teeth against the new marine lists. We spam enough D3/D2 weaponry that it almost just results in our marine opponents having 20% less firepower to throw at us while we kill them nearly as fast.

Couple of pointers for playing against Custodes if anyone is interested.

Da jumping or deep striking within 9” of any of their termies is a bad idea. They’ve a similar strat to the marines suspected scan that is participating effective on a squad of 5+ Allarus. They’re less effected that marines too only going to a bs3+ due to the -1. You’ll be deepstriking away from kff cover and being honest charging Custodes with anything less than MANZ is a bad idea. 2+ armour is our boyz weakness.


Unit blocking is less effected as they also have a strat to heroically intervene any unit 3”

They also have a strat to turn off all rerolls against one of their units. This is particularly painful against tankbustas who rely on their Reroll to hit vehicle against their Telemon or callidus Grav tanks. The deathskulls 2cp strat to Reroll wounds against a vehicle would be particularly sickening to cancel.

Custodes hate Burna bommers mortal wounds. Kunnin but brutal allowed me to keep the plane safe if I didn’t go first.

They also hate Ghaz thanks to his flat 4 klaw due to their w3 guardians and 4w termies. Again they do have a strat to reduce damage by 1 which can hurt tankbustas (and I assume lootas and flashgitz) thankfully by the time Ghaz is in their lines they’re low on cp.

Big take away was that splitting fire in order to draw out strats is viable. Custodes units are so tough against a lot of our shooting (their termies also have a strat to ignore ap-1 and ap-2 shots, 90% of our shooting) that wiping out a squad is tough t1 anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I almost forgot the most important point. They have a 1cp strat to add d6 to either your charge or movement effectively making charging from deep strike impossible. At 1cp they’ll use it More than once and it’s equally effective on units not deep striking in.

cody.d. wrote:
So seems like a fair few people are getting the vibe that boyz in trukks just don't hold enough impact, and well all know in their current status grots are hilariously over priced.

Do you peeps reckon it's worth biting the CP bullet and building around one of the detachments that don't give you CP back? That's an extra couple hundred points you can use for other units in other slots. Mind you i'm not a deffskull player so can't really just plonk any old infantry with obsec onto an objective.

Yes.

Mechanized Orks don't need that much CP. This is a hold over from when you needed 4+ CP a turn for your SSAG (More Dakka, Shoot Twice, grot shields, command re-roll for shots, strength, etc...), or similar for Lootas, or 3-5 CP for green tide (Green Tide + auto pass morale).

We know from the two GT winners two style of lists might have some potential (taking into account this is a SMALL dataset...): Boy Tide w/ Ghaz, and outrider buggy list. Neither features trukk boys.

I think Trukk boys are absolutely fine in semi-competitive, beerhammer lists. On top table play? I dunno. You have to lean into your strength. I think going double patrol, just for that extra heavy/fast/HQ slot is going to be super common, so just spending that 1 extra CP to avoid troops altogether? Sure, why not? As you stated, 10 boys + transport is in the range of 160 points (once you upgrade the boys to a Rocket, and give the nob a proper weapon). Gaining back 320 points... that's a Mork, or 3 Mega Trakks / Shock Dragstas. If you think 2 trukk boys + 1 cp is as impactful as a Mork, then I dunno what to tell you.

Agree, spending 2 or 3 CP on a patrol detachment or an outrider to reduce troop tax should be no problem for a vehicle list.

The most important stratagems besides kustom jobs and other upgrades are probably ramming speed, 'eadbut and moar dakka, followed by some more situational ones like temperamental dreaded death machine, hit 'em harder, shokkdrive or burnin' highway which can be supported by the CP you regenerate.

Yeah, if I had multiples of the same buggy I'd probably be running my list as only an outrider. But because I have 1 of each, I need 8 FA slots for my speed freeks list lol - so an extra patrol it is.

On the bright side, my single squad of Boyz who just hang in the bonebreaka I was already bringing buys me reroll 1s to hit on allllllll my shooty buggies, thanks to them being able to be Bad Moonz while the patrol with the melee focused stuff runs Evil Sunz.

Well worth the 90pts!

I just run the snazzwagon as KBB and the squigbuggy as scrapjet. No opponent ever had an issue with that, as the armaments of the buggies roughly match.

Hi
Not so many FREEBOOTERZ list around anymore since the FLASH GITZ has become expensive.
I am still tempted to try this culture out at 2k with my 18 Mek Gunz and two Morkanouts plus one or two Battle Wagons . Have not hammered out the details jet.
Someone that has tried something similar? Comments are appreciated!

Jidmah wrote:
... yes?
Boyz are pretty much the least fun part of orks to me. Such a change would obviously increase wounds on nobz by one as well.

Well okay fair. I haven't been a fan of them since 5th but still. Also I wouldn't say obviously. When the Exarch got 2w marine sgts didn't. GW isn't known historically for consistency.

Vineheart01 wrote:i'd have to agree.

While i dont want the model to go away because thats a LOT of plasticcrack that is 100% useless that every ork player has, and you will always have that random guy that does like green tide for some reason get really mad his total number of models dropped by like 30%, but i do wish boyz were more powerful so i didnt need AS many of them.

Not to mention in their current form theyre largely useless outside the random Deathskullz rokkit shot or full 30man blobs. If they were retuned to be 5-20 but were tougher/deadlier as well, the transport vs footslog wouldnt be as big of an issue. You wouldnt be paying for a rule you almost never, ever get to use (20+ = +1 attack).

I'm with this guy. Making Boyz 2W and or removing them isn't a good solution. Granted they used to be 5-15 man. And 10 was a "big" unit. GW really struggles with model efficacy and "oh let's sell more and everyone run hordes" Or "play Apocalypse so here is 100 marines for not too much coin.

Vineheart01 wrote:5pt grots will never make sense

I feel it could have stopped here.

Vineheart01 wrote:They said all armies are getting redesigned old modles/wargear not just marines.

Is that true? oof....

miscNouns wrote:I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

You know,.. deathskull ones can get across the board really fast and have Ob Sec and start fiddling with enemies objective claiming for 60 points? Sure they'll die but Orks die and your opponent won't be shooting you off other objectives. Kommandos do it cheaper but why not both?

koooaei wrote:
Here's a photo. Once again, don't judge too harsh.

I see the baby stroller. As one dad to another?, no judgment.

Nora wrote:Hi
Not so many FREEBOOTERZ list around anymore since the FLASH GITZ has become expensive.

I really liked Freebooterz at the end of last edition. even before the points drop which just made the list better. I think with Dmg 2 and marines being 2W we may see more even if not in a Freebooterz kulture. 5+ in a trukk or BW can do some work.

Is that true? oof....

Yeah, it was in the article confirming the marine buffs that all armies are getting some.
They just didnt reveal any except for Necrons (and of course as things marines, revealed like 3x as many marine ones as they did necrons) and didnt say anything about how/when the other armies are getting them.

Apparently auspex tactics stated that all armies get an faq when the SM and necron codex drops. I hope to god that is true. That would take the sting out the old codexes.

But that might be just regarding the imperium armies.

I'm contemplating 3 x 5 flashgits in trukks with 2-wound models around the corner (that said, I normally face primaris so I should be thinking of this anyway!). I've had success in 8th with 7 gits in a trukk, turn 1 aim for central cover, turn 2+ sit and shoot. If the trukk pops, loot it for a 3+ save, 2+ in cover. bonus points for objectives!

I'm thinking 3 units of 5 in trukks would help with board control, and they're remarkably resilient - when the trukk pops, they become primaris with better guns, and they do fairly well in 5-man squads. I'm probably going to roll with shooting units and go freeboota to maximise the kultures usefulness. Morkanaught, SAG mek (they are pretty good for killing something, usually), boomer gunwagon, shoota boys... it's sounding like fun to me!

Flash gits aren't terrible units, but instead of a trukk full of flash gits (225 points), you could just get two scrapjets or SJD.

Also keep in mind that the kaptin's gitfinda no longer stacks with the freeboota culture.

Just threw a list together for a freebootas trial, which came in at about 1500 points:



having 3 chinorks suddenly descend with flashgitz firepower would be pretty cool. Never run minimum flashgits mobs though, so I might have to lessen the boys to increase the gitz. I only have 7 glashgits right now, and no chinorks, so there's some building to do before I can try this!

 some bloke wrote:
I'm contemplating 3 x 5 flashgits in trukks with 2-wound models around the corner (that said, I normally face primaris so I should be thinking of this anyway!). I've had success in 8th with 7 gits in a trukk, turn 1 aim for central cover, turn 2+ sit and shoot. If the trukk pops, loot it for a 3+ save, 2+ in cover. bonus points for objectives!

I'm thinking 3 units of 5 in trukks would help with board control, and they're remarkably resilient - when the trukk pops, they become primaris with better guns, and they do fairly well in 5-man squads. I'm probably going to roll with shooting units and go freeboota to maximise the kultures usefulness. Morkanaught, SAG mek (they are pretty good for killing something, usually), boomer gunwagon, shoota boys... it's sounding like fun to me!

I play similar stuff as well, mostly DS for my buggies but i use Flash Gitz a lot and sometimes run freebooterz.
What i found to be a good way to protect them is to drive the Trukk / Gunwaggon near a ruin with just a tiny piece looking around the corner, shoot and if the transport gets popped i can disembark outside LOS if there is lots of enemy firepower left. That means moving the gitz next turn but has often saved them. If there is no serious firepower / charging stuff left in the shooting phase, i disembark more aggressive with the goal to get my BS4+ next turn.
Even with a 3+ after lootin`they are not that resilient sadly. If i run a KFF they get a 5++ sometimes if he babysits the waggon, but still, turns in which i loose 500 points with 10 Gits + transport hurt a lot and there are enough armies that can fokus them down.
Playing my Naut(s) und buggies agressive has helped them a bit to survive tough.

Too bad the Gitz got quite a price hike, but i am way to stubborn not to use them anymore. The new tables and missions have actually helped them, they get to shoot without moving more often now. And that D2 is gold.
Mek Guns and Dakkajets are great to trigger the culture as well, if you want to go full freebooters.
Have to admit, it`s hard to justify taking a Dakkajet over the Bomber - might not be the best choice but i used it to trigger the culture for (shockjumping) buggies.

Jidmah wrote:Also keep in mind that the kaptin's gitfinda no longer stacks with the freeboota culture.

You can still get use out of it, if you need to move but can keep your Captin on a 3+ on the go.
Also shotgun on the ammorunt with him. ^^

also gotta remember that for some stupid reason rules dont affect the unit inside at ALL now.
Kaptin doesnt get +1 to hit and the chance to fire twice doesnt go off either while embarked. Freeboota aura works because of opentopped of course.

Still recommending people send in emails about that. It feels like a very shorthanded way to deny any aura, active ability, or stratagem from affecting the unit inside and accidentally removed literally all rules.

Yeah, I'm of the opinion gits' badness is quite a bit offset by the hugely ridiculously common prevalence of space marines everywhere. If 90% of games you play are against marines, ad all marines are gonna be W2, gits are gonna be at least OK, even if theyre not technically the MOST efficient way to get D2 on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
also gotta remember that for some stupid reason rules dont affect the unit inside at ALL now.
Kaptin doesnt get +1 to hit and the chance to fire twice doesnt go off either while embarked. Freeboota aura works because of opentopped of course.

Still recommending people send in emails about that. It feels like a very shorthanded way to deny any aura, active ability, or stratagem from affecting the unit inside and accidentally removed literally all rules.

I have seen literally nobody playing with this interpretation of the rule. So, I guess, YMMV there.

Gruxz wrote:
Apparently auspex tactics stated that all armies get an faq when the SM and necron codex drops. I hope to god that is true. That would take the sting out the old codexes.

But that might be just regarding the imperium armies.

From the warhammer community article (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/):

"Alien Weaponry
‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

The only FAQ will apply to Imperium wide weapons. IE: A flamer on a guard is the same as a flamer on a Space Marine. We have to wait.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I'm of the opinion gits' badness is quite a bit offset by the hugely ridiculously common prevalence of space marines everywhere. If 90% of games you play are against marines, ad all marines are gonna be W2, gits are gonna be at least OK, even if theyre not technically the MOST efficient way to get D2 on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
also gotta remember that for some stupid reason rules dont affect the unit inside at ALL now.
Kaptin doesnt get +1 to hit and the chance to fire twice doesnt go off either while embarked. Freeboota aura works because of opentopped of course.

Still recommending people send in emails about that. It feels like a very shorthanded way to deny any aura, active ability, or stratagem from affecting the unit inside and accidentally removed literally all rules.

I have seen literally nobody playing with this interpretation of the rule. So, I guess, YMMV there.

I too have never seen it played that a units abilities don't work in vehicles - though any "within X inches" abilities don't work, as they aren't on the battlefield. However, it will be something which I will have to prepare for if I go to tournaments!

Friendly games by all means ignore it, i am as like i said its a very obvious oversight. Its also an oversight that literally only affects orks, as only eldar/darkeldar have opentopped transports besides orks and they lack any rules that would actually be affected by this (what they do have specifically mentions in a transport)

Tournaments, its in the rules and is very clear so dont expect to get to use it unless you contact the TO first about it. This is, after all, a competitive talk thread so tournaments are in mind.

I gotta be honest, I still don't really see the case for Flash Gits when you basically get 2 tankbustas for every FG you bring. Sure, worse BS but they can move and shoot without penalty and flat 3DMG is going to be a lot tastier against the new terminator statline etc (not to mention they're great against tanks).

PiñaColada wrote:
I gotta be honest, I still don't really see the case for Flash Gits when you basically get 2 tankbustas for every FG you bring. Sure, worse BS but they can move and shoot without penalty and flat 3DMG is going to be a lot tastier against the new terminator statline etc (not to mention they're great against tanks).

So 5 Flash Gits (with Kaptin) is 160 points. 10 TB is 170.

If both are hitting at normal BS (we'll ignore explosions as it's a static boost for both anyway)

4 Flash gits: 12 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 2.67 dead Primaris.
Kaptin: 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, .89 dead primaris.
Grand total: 3.56 dead Primaris. (At -1 to hit due to moving this is: 1.795 + .673 = 2.468 dead primaris)

Then they can try to shoot twice on a 6.

Tankbustas:
10 shots, 3.333 hit, 2.76 wound, 1.85 dead primaris.

So Flash gits are cheaper, and better PER point if both are hitting at normal BS against Primaris AND even at -1 to hit. God forbid the tanbustas get -1 to hit.

Flash gits are expensive, but they really, really shred PEQ. At normal BS, they should beat tankbustas on termiantors too, and probably be close to them at -1 to hit.

Edit: To be honest, the real reason one might avoid Flash Gits is simply because our heavy slots are much more competitive than our elite slots.

PiñaColada wrote:
I gotta be honest, I still don't really see the case for Flash Gits when you basically get 2 tankbustas for every FG you bring. Sure, worse BS but they can move and shoot without penalty and flat 3DMG is going to be a lot tastier against the new terminator statline etc (not to mention they're great against tanks).

It's true that tankbustas are comparable, but they are also squishier with (effectively) no save, and have worse BS as you said. The big advantage of a Tankbusta mob is they are in elites, which has a lot less competition than the Heavy Support slot flashgitz fill. Moving flashgitz to elites would make them a n awful lot more appealing to me. As it is, without buying extra detachments, I can't run 2 wagons full of flashgits - which seems wrong to me!

tulun wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I gotta be honest, I still don't really see the case for Flash Gits when you basically get 2 tankbustas for every FG you bring. Sure, worse BS but they can move and shoot without penalty and flat 3DMG is going to be a lot tastier against the new terminator statline etc (not to mention they're great against tanks).

So 5 Flash Gits (with Kaptin) is 160 points. 10 TB is 170.

If both are hitting at normal BS (we'll ignore explosions as it's a static boost for both anyway)

4 Flash gits: 12 shots, 6 hit, 4 wound, 2.67 dead Primaris.
Kaptin: 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, .89 dead primaris.
Grand total: 3.56 dead Primaris. (At -1 to hit due to moving this is: 1.795 + .673 = 2.468 dead primaris)

Then they can try to shoot twice on a 6.

Tankbustas:
10 shots, 3.333 hit, 2.76 wound, 1.85 dead primaris.

So Flash gits are cheaper, and better PER point if both are hitting at normal BS against Primaris AND even at -1 to hit. God forbid the tanbustas get -1 to hit.

Flash gits are expensive, but they really, really shred PEQ. At normal BS, they should beat tankbustas on termiantors too, and probably be close to them at -1 to hit.

Edit: To be honest, the real reason one might avoid Flash Gits is simply because our heavy slots are much more competitive than our elite slots.

Are you sure on termies? Flash gits require 2 shots to punch terminator. Tank bustas will do it in one.

Main reason i prefer tb is flexibility. Terminator, gravis(t5 w3), custodian, vehicles. All is good targets. Fg...primaris marine and...what else? 3.67 primaris and then often dead.

tneva82 wrote:


Are you sure on termies? Flash gits require 2 shots to punch terminator. Tank bustas will do it in one.

Main reason i prefer tb is flexibility. Terminator, gravis(t5 w3), custodian, vehicles. All is good targets. Fg...primaris marine and...what else? 3.67 primaris and then often dead.

Sure, let's do the math.

Since I assume most terminators will sport the new Storm Shield, let's assume that. So 1+, 4++, so the termiantors are both making 3+ saves against these units

4 normal gits: 12 / 2 * .67 / 3 = 1.34 unsaved wounds
Kaptin: 3 * .67 * .67 / 3 = .446 unsaved wounds
Total: 1.78. Should be about 1 dead Terminator.

10 Tankbustas:
10 / 3 * .8333 / 3 = 0.92 unsaved wounds
Should be about 1 dead terminator.

At -1 to hit, the flash gits probably lose, but neither is particularly threatening to a Storm shield terminator, sadly.

I think with adding ammo runt re-rolls and such you could push the flash gits up a bit, but it's rough.

Tankbustas are totally fine, by the by. It's just really wrong to say they are BETTER against PEQ. Tankbustas shine against vehicles, with that to hit-reroll, the conversion rate from shot to hit is like 65-70% (IE: For every shot you fire, you should expect with explosions on top of it, about .65-.7 hits).

Flash Gits are literally built to shred PEQ. I think Rockets are good against Gravis (GEQ is sadly taken.. GrEQ?), but I think is probably better when it's just a random rocket on stuff like a Mega Trakk. Leave Tankbustas for what they do best -- killing tanks. If they have no better targets, they do okay, but don't really shine.

Yes, I understand that TBs are inferior to FGs when it comes to being dedicated primaries killers. But that's not their role really, they just have to be fairly decent at it. My point being that they're probably good enough to pull that double duty if your facing an infantry heavy SM list (especially if it's terminators, gravis, potentially those new heavy intercessors). If you're facing something a more balanced list then those TBs can easily demolish some tanks instead.

Tankbustas made out like bandits whereas Flash Gits did not, so if you're facing a bunch of Space Marines then obviously the Gits have a potential niche there but Tankbustas are weirdly just a much better TAC choice.

Edit: Not to mention stuff like Custodes and 2W plague marines...

PiñaColada wrote:
Yes, I understand that TBs are inferior to FGs when it comes to being dedicated primaries killers. But that's not their role really, they just have to be fairly decent at it. My point being that they're probably good enough to pull that double duty if your facing an infantry heavy SM list (especially if it's terminators, gravis, potentially those new heavy intercessors). If you're facing something a more balanced list then those TBs can easily demolish some tanks instead.

Tankbustas made out like bandits whereas Flash Gits did not, so if you're facing a bunch of Space Marines then obviously the Gits have a potential niche there but Tankbustas are weirdly just a much better TAC choice.

Except as some basic napkin math shows, 170 points of tankbustas barely kills 2 models, be it GrEQ or PEQ. And god forbid they have a feel no pain like Iron hands. (Invul here doesn't matter, as it's AP-2).

You use them in a pinch, but that is wholly unimpressive. At least GrEQ models are often quite expensive to make up for it.

This isn't a case to use Flash gits by the by, but I would much rather have Flash Gits if there were no tanks around. Adding an ammo runt to my Kaptin will also very nicely swing the math in the FG favour. And explosions do matter to FG a bit more, as they are more likely to hit secondary shots, so this is probably actually UNDERSELLING their advantage against GrEQ and PEQ.

I dunno, maybe I'm scarred, but when was the last time you faced primaries that didn't have that PA upgraded apothecary for a 6++ (or possibly 5++)? For me it's basically never, so 2DMG weapons aren't that attractive as primaris killers IMO.

And again, even though it's not really backed up by much data so far, people are really talking up Custodes and DG as big players in early 9th, and even if it turns out to be somewhat unfounded the zeitgeist will still make those armies more common for a while I'm assuming. Flat 3 dmg is a lot more tempting there as well

tulun wrote:
Gravis (GEQ is sadly taken.. GrEQ?)

AEG = Aggressor Equivalent

Or just not be lazy and type those six letters

Since I assume most terminators will sport the new Storm Shield, let's assume that. So 1+, 4++, so the termiantors are both making 3+ saves against these units

Didn`t GW say in an FAQ that only the bladeguard will get those new fancy shields or did i miss something here?
Not that it would matter in this case, just wondering.

As you said, TB can`t compete with Gitz shooting PEQ. Only bonus would be the shooting twice strategem if you run bad moons.
And TB using tankbusta bombs with the granade strategem and shooting twice are quite killy, but will die instantly afterwards.
If you trade them for something like a Castellan it is still worth it tough.

The real answer to this question: take neither.

Each unit is fragile and is too expensive to field without protection. They are too expensive and don’t hit hard enough to be a suicidal unit. Therefore there’s a 65 point minimum transport cost added.

Do you know what I would take for 220 points? Two mega trakks or shock jumps. Both of which will shred better.

All roads lead to buggy spam or green tide once you start optimizing.

Oh yeah, most definitively. I've been playing buggy spam since those models dropped (and mostly sucked) so it's interesting that my 12 buggy list somehow basically became meta recently.

Though I'm still desperately trying to make those darn nob bikers work since I have so many warbiker models. My hope is that all the different Nobz units get +1 toughness as their durability buff when the new codex drops. T6 bikers would be amazing, but also, MANZ should be T5.

 Grotrebel wrote:

Since I assume most terminators will sport the new Storm Shield, let's assume that. So 1+, 4++, so the termiantors are both making 3+ saves against these units

Didn`t GW say in an FAQ that only the bladeguard will get those new fancy shields or did i miss something here?
Not that it would matter in this case, just wondering.

As you said, TB can`t compete with Gitz shooting PEQ. Only bonus would be the shooting twice strategem if you run bad moons.
And TB using tankbusta bombs with the granade strategem and shooting twice are quite killy, but will die instantly afterwards.
If you trade them for something like a Castellan it is still worth it tough.

They said for now. They didn't say it would never spread. Seeing codex will come with whole bunch of other changes and gw is removing 3++ lately would be likely to come　in codex. Faq just made　sure it happens then.

PiñaColada wrote:
Oh yeah, most definitively. I've been playing buggy spam since those models dropped (and mostly sucked) so it's interesting that my 12 buggy list somehow basically became meta recently.

Though I'm still desperately trying to make those darn nob bikers work since I have so many warbiker models. My hope is that all the different Nobz units get +1 toughness as their durability buff when the new codex drops. T6 bikers would be amazing, but also, MANZ should be T5.

Yeah. The numbers on buggies just looks really, really good. When you could double dip with grot shields (as you needed lots of troops anyway), it made more sense to field the likes of Lootas, tankbustas, and Flash gits. Not so much anymore.
Buggy spam just seems incredibly strong. Even with people leaning into anti tank, buggies just get into board position easily while having enough output to be a threat. And fielding an entire army of T5+, all with invuls, is really solid.

Honestly, with base stat changes, I'm very hopeful Nobs will be 3 wound base -- so 4 wound Mega Nobs and 4 wound nobs bikers might be a thing. unfortunately, if they also just up the damage of weapons, we might not see the overall benefits compared to today's damage output

Nobs becoming T5 wouldn't necessarily be outside the realm of possibility either I guess, but we'll see what direction they go. It would be nice if Mega Nob armour was Gravis like and T5 at least... it seems weird it's just 1 wound at this point.

PiñaColada wrote:
Oh yeah, most definitively. I've been playing buggy spam since those models dropped (and mostly sucked) so it's interesting that my 12 buggy list somehow basically became meta recently.

Though I'm still desperately trying to make those darn nob bikers work since I have so many warbiker models. My hope is that all the different Nobz units get +1 toughness as their durability buff when the new codex drops. T6 bikers would be amazing, but also, MANZ should be T5.

Personally, I'm hoping for +1 wound for bikes in general and ours getting back exhaust cloud. Almost every other biker unit in the game has some defense mechanism now, except the ones who had it first.

Especially now that modifiers dont stack theres no fear of -2 to hit bikers with the stratagem.
Technically they'd still exist but unless youre facing a +1 or better to hit it wouldnt matter.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Especially now that modifiers dont stack theres no fear of -2 to hit bikers with the stratagem.
Technically they'd still exist but unless youre facing a +1 or better to hit it wouldnt matter.

Well, if I were the one to write the rules, I'd make exhaust cloud work like obscuring terrain - that would open up endless possibilities for strategic shenanigans.

tulun wrote:

Honestly, with base stat changes, I'm very hopeful Nobs will be 3 wound base -- so 4 wound Mega Nobs and 4 wound nobs bikers might be a thing. unfortunately, if they also just up the damage of weapons, we might not see the overall benefits compared to today's damage output

Nobs becoming T5 wouldn't necessarily be outside the realm of possibility either I guess, but we'll see what direction they go. It would be nice if Mega Nob armour was Gravis like and T5 at least... it seems weird it's just 1 wound at this point.

T5 W3 nobs? Super unlikely. Necron immortals got just T5 and not 2nd wound. Would feel pretty odd for nobz to be so tough compared to necron elite warriors who are supposedly super resilient.

Maybe T5 W2(though that would still be weird). But wouldn't even count on getting 3rd wound.

And either way T or W buff would be hefty price hike. Both? Would be VERY expensive model.

tneva82 wrote:

tulun wrote:

Honestly, with base stat changes, I'm very hopeful Nobs will be 3 wound base -- so 4 wound Mega Nobs and 4 wound nobs bikers might be a thing. unfortunately, if they also just up the damage of weapons, we might not see the overall benefits compared to today's damage output

Nobs becoming T5 wouldn't necessarily be outside the realm of possibility either I guess, but we'll see what direction they go. It would be nice if Mega Nob armour was Gravis like and T5 at least... it seems weird it's just 1 wound at this point.

T5 W3 nobs? Super unlikely. Necron immortals got just T5 and not 2nd wound. Would feel pretty odd for nobz to be so tough compared to necron elite warriors who are supposedly super resilient.

Maybe T5 W2(though that would still be weird). But wouldn't even count on getting 3rd wound.

And either way T or W buff would be hefty price hike. Both? Would be VERY expensive model.

I am under a theory boys will get +1 wounds, to represent the hard to kill nature of Orks. An ork boy and a space marine are not necessarily off in terms of bulky size (I can't comment on Immortals. Do remember, they do get res protocols).
As it is right now, a 6+ save and 1 wound makes them a joke when even 10 guardsmen can output something like 40 shots in 1 turn and bloody a bunch of Boys.

If boys go to 2, nobs to go to 3.

We shall see, though. I'm not clambouring for extra toughness on Nobs, other than Mega Nobs, which I think deserve the buff. Extra wounds makes sense to me.

tulun wrote:
The real answer to this question: take neither.

Each unit is fragile and is too expensive to field without protection. They are too expensive and don’t hit hard enough to be a suicidal unit. Therefore there’s a 65 point minimum transport cost added.

Do you know what I would take for 220 points? Two mega trakks or shock jumps. Both of which will shred better.

All roads lead to buggy spam or green tide once you start optimizing.

The thing is with the buggies once you have 9 of them then what does the rest of the list look like? Meaning 3 scrap jets, 3 kbb, and 3 dragsters then 2 burna bombers plus HQs you still have around 4-500 points left how do we best use those?

i'd be shocked if footnobz went to T5. Third wound, maybe, but T5? Noway.
Meganobz on the other hand definitely should be T5.

Time will tell though as this is all speculation.

russellmoo wrote:


The thing is with the buggies once you have 9 of them then what does the rest of the list look like? Meaning 3 scrap jets, 3 kbb, and 3 dragsters then 2 burna bombers plus HQs you still have around 4-500 points left how do we best use those?

This is Andy's GT winning list.



The answer to your question is warbikers to hold your back objective / some chaff counter charging, apparently.

This list isn't even that optimized imo. Andy said he'd drop the KBB and snazz for more Dragstas, on his commentary of his list.

I'd probably swap the warbikers for Nob Bikers, and then just trade the biker boss for a walking boss. Maybe toss in 3-4 Mega Nobs in the transport with him.

The list is helpful but it might just be one approach. I agree that buggies are the way to go, I am just wondering if warbikers and battlewagons are the best use of the remaining points.

russellmoo wrote:
The list is helpful but it might just be one approach. I agree that buggies are the way to go, I am just wondering if warbikers and battlewagons are the best use of the remaining points.

We're still early. Think you just gotta test stuff out.

In part it'll probably depend on your meta. The wagons are really good, though, as they play to the mission. You want tanky units that rush to the midboard, and T8, 16 wound models that are good in CC, with a good movement stat really check off these requirements.

I imagine you don't necessarily need *two* of them, though, so certain elements are probably swappable.

russellmoo wrote:
The list is helpful but it might just be one approach. I agree that buggies are the way to go, I am just wondering if warbikers and battlewagons are the best use of the remaining points.

I'm not personally a fan of warbikers, bit evidently he has had some success with them. Wagons work well en masse, I'm running three at 1500 points (full of boys and MANz), and I'm debating moving to a spearhead to get more wagons in at the expense of boys.

Stock wagons or bonebreakas?

 Billagio wrote:
Stock wagons or bonebreakas?

I would assume stock wagons, since bonebreakas IMO pay too much of a price premium over regular wagons just to get the D6 extra attacks on the charge, which you usually only get off once per game. This is especially important with regards to the occupants, since BB also don't have the transport capacity to have both a squad of boyz and MANZ inside, where the boyz can offset any losses from the transport going kaput.

I dont think i'll ever use a bonebreaka again unless im being silly and running 6 wagons w/ rollas lol.

It pays a noticable amount of points for 8 less capacity, mandated 'ard case, and D6 extra attacks that generally only happens once a game.
The D6 extra attacks can make a big difference but generally the 8 less capacity makes a bigger difference, as you cant have nobz + a squad of extra wounds to eat the explode damage inside. Bonebreakas can only have nobs or boyz, not both, and thats a huge problem.

Use kommandos if looking for ablative wounds. And most likely one will survive and you can make him nob and give claw or just hide him in terrain for rest of game to deny VPs

Number-wise that works, but they also both take elite slots.
Not an issue if you only have 1 squad of nobz/meganobz anyway but if youre trying to run 2 wagons in such a fashion, need a 4th elite slot.

Least in my area wagons are bullet magnets...for some reason...ive even tested that out and ran a wagon with nothing but grots in it and it still got shot at first for some reason. So i wont use one unless i got multiples

Personally, I'm hoping for +1 wound for bikes in general and ours getting back exhaust cloud. Almost every other biker unit in the game has some defense mechanism now, except the ones who had it first.

Well, if I were the one to write the rules, I'd make exhaust cloud work like obscuring terrain - that would open up endless possibilities for strategic shenanigans.

This makes sense.
There seems to be a trend to use terrain traits for special rules. Like rules that get you the benefit of light cover etc.
Might be possible to see more future units - especially bikers - to get new rules and strategems that use light cover / heavy cover / obscuring.

I kinda regret i sold my 9 nob bikers at ebay about a year ago. I used some Speed Freak bikes and bitz, nobs and ork stuff. Had a few with double killsaws and some with (big) choppas.
Sprued some foundaton on them but was to lazy to paint them.
Would really like to play that unit now. :(
Maybe someone here got them at least. ^^

I guess bikers will be quite usefull. They can help the buggies block enemy movement and park around objectives. Even if 12 warbikers loose 6-9 a turn, the few surviving ones might be enough to block off the objective or a key position and make it easier to hold objective till your command phase.
One of the key elements in our buggy lists will be to optimize board control, screen enemy movement and have enough units in the right place to disturb the opponents movement and plans.

For that reason i can see stormboys work great with buggies as well, plus some waggons / nauts and maybe bikes.
They are fast and can reach parts of the battlefield that are impossible for the others to get to.
As much as i love using my 3 dragstas, even with the custom job you cant go everywhere.
Boys are great and i see still value in the large mobs and board control combined with holding 4/6 objectives long enough to get through 5 turns, but boys have their limits.
Tellyport and and da jump have their 9" problem and you get your stuff only turn 2 & 3. With other armies also pressing forward to control the midfield, i`d rather use them footslogging or riding waggons / trukks.

Together with the other boys / nobs / manz in waggons etc. they can work quite well.
On the other hand 500 poins for 20 Stormboys and 10 Bikes is quite an investment, so the budget on the rest of the list is really, really tight.
I tried 3 x 5 stormboys for getting secondaries without sacrificing buggies. That worked okay but they have no real damage output. Just enough to clear 10 guard with a a bit of shooting (support).

I dont think i'll ever use a bonebreaka again unless im being silly and running 6 wagons w/ rollas lol.

It pays a noticable amount of points for 8 less capacity, mandated 'ard case, and D6 extra attacks that generally only happens once a game.
The D6 extra attacks can make a big difference but generally the 8 less capacity makes a bigger difference, as you cant have nobz + a squad of extra wounds to eat the explode damage inside. Bonebreakas can only have nobs or boyz, not both, and thats a huge problem.

I´m with you on this one. Ether da boomer as light transport with dakka or just battlewaggon(s).


As said before, i love Flash Gitz, but i am leaning more and more into alternatives to accompany the buggies, two fliers, HQ`s and heavy vehicles.
Can`t play always the same stuff anyways.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Number-wise that works, but they also both take elite slots.
Not an issue if you only have 1 squad of nobz/meganobz anyway but if youre trying to run 2 wagons in such a fashion, need a 4th elite slot.

Well an battalion has 6 and patrol + outrider / spearhead got 2 each. So you`ll have at least 4 or 6 mostly.
Unless you go for a outrider-detachment-only list to maximise CP of course.

Anyone have positive experiences with Stormboys in 9th?

12 PPM seems costly for a unit that at best can be used to eat/deny overwatch, and with the loss of the biker boss, not even able to do a 25+" Move+Advance+Charge.

PiñaColada wrote:I gotta be honest, I still don't really see the case for Flash Gits when you basically get 2 tankbustas for every FG you bring. Sure, worse BS but they can move and shoot without penalty and flat 3DMG is going to be a lot tastier against the new terminator statline etc (not to mention they're great against tanks).

I don't really see the case to compare those two units. I love both and their weaponry is different the unit profile is different, the strats you use are different. I take both

Billagio wrote:Stock wagons or bonebreakas?

Bonebreakers. He ran two up and slammed the enemy with the Deffkilla (for advance and charge).

The bikes he used were deployment area/board edge control and when a buggy need to drop back being low on HP he could swap up the bikes.

 Diakos wrote:
Anyone have positive experiences with Stormboys in 9th?

12 PPM seems costly for a unit that at best can be used to eat/deny overwatch, and with the loss of the biker boss, not even able to do a 25+" Move+Advance+Charge.

At 50% extra cost of a boy for what Kommandos can pretty much do at a lower price? I can think they're pretty much a hard pass atm. The whole point of stormboyz was that you had large units as the other hammer to go with the Da Jumping Boyz in 8th ed, but now that your opponent is pretty much coming to you in the middle, that's no longer really that necessar and they cost way too much for guys that die as fast as boyz, who don't even have the same damage output. You're better off taking more boyz if you're going for a Green Tide style list, and they just give all the anti-infantry guns a target in buggy lists, so I don't think they really have a role in the top Ork armies atm. They need to get a points cut down to 9 or an overall rules revision to something than just Boyz with jump packs to be worth taking.

 Diakos wrote:
Anyone have positive experiences with Stormboys in 9th?

12 PPM seems costly for a unit that at best can be used to eat/deny overwatch, and with the loss of the biker boss, not even able to do a 25+" Move+Advance+Charge.

Well you can still use the warboss chilling in one of the waggons as speed bump.
Sure it means to conga line a bit but might work. Guess that depends if you want to use them for first turn strikes or plan to use them more midfield over turn 2-4.

Stormboyz need a large pricecut or a new rule to justify using them over kommandoz.
Theyre 3ppm more than kommandoz
Fly isnt that important right now (infantry go right through most terrain anyway)
They offer nothing in melee kommandoz/boyz dont have.

I'm not sure what rule you could give them, but they could really use a new rule slapped on them to differentiate them. You dont even take them for the deepstrike because kommandoz do that now too (kommandoz used to have to be in terrain, not anymore)

Maybe if they had something to better represent the crunching charge a unit of boys strapped to rockets would have. Though unless you jump a footboss up the field it's unlikely they'll ever need to advance nowdays so less likely to lose that 1/6 boyz.

Perhaps a strength of ap bonus for charging? Extra attack or even mortal wounds at the cost of a model? Something along those lines.

But yeah, compared to commandos in their current state stormboyz have little going for them. IMO their main strength was being able to charge super reliably turn 1 with a 20" move under speedfreaks.

I was thinking about trying out the Goff list that placed recently (https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html). What could I use to replace the smasha guns? I know I need some antitank but I'm not sure if I want to drop the money on mek gunz quite yet

cody.d. wrote:
Maybe if they had something to better represent the crunching charge a unit of boys strapped to rockets would have. Though unless you jump a footboss up the field it's unlikely they'll ever need to advance nowdays so less likely to lose that 1/6 boyz.

Perhaps a strength of ap bonus for charging? Extra attack or even mortal wounds at the cost of a model? Something along those lines.

But yeah, compared to commandos in their current state stormboyz have little going for them. IMO their main strength was being able to charge super reliably turn 1 with a 20" move under speedfreaks.

Yeah, I would like it if they showed the disciplined nature (for Orks) of Stormboyz rules-wise in some way. Would be a nice contrast against regular Ork boy mobs if they only lost 1 model from attrition tests, though that might be redundant with how morale works now (and Zagstruk would need a different rule regarding his aura). They're more likely to get a "hammer of wrath" esque rule where you roll a D6 for each model in engagement range of an enemy unit and you inflict mortal wounds on each 6 you roll after you successfully make a charge roll. Maybe even just letting them charge after they advance would be good enough.

What do you think its the best way to run wagons? I like the idea of spamming them with boyz/nobz/warboss inside and creating an armored wall like in 5th


Automatically Appended Next Post:

miscNouns wrote:
I was thinking about trying out the Goff list that placed recently (https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html). What could I use to replace the smasha guns? I know I need some antitank but I'm not sure if I want to drop the money on mek gunz quite yet

You could convert them, theres a video where you buy a mek gun and trukk box and can get 4 mek gunz out of it. Im personally using some plastic dollar store artillery pieces as the basis for my conversions

miscNouns wrote:
I was thinking about trying out the Goff list that placed recently (https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html). What could I use to replace the smasha guns? I know I need some antitank but I'm not sure if I want to drop the money on mek gunz quite yet

So there it is! List with trukk boyz that worked! 3rd. Interesting... Discussion here about a week ago had a conclusion, that truckboyz suck. But this guy spam them.

4 truckboyz + 2x grots + 3 squads of kommandos occuppy the field under command of warboss and weirdboy
3kbb + 3sjd + 3sj clear the sky.

In fact that solve one of the problems - buggies shoot, so the people shoot back. If the buggy holds objective, enemy shoot down your weapons and objective graber in the same time. This guy has a spam of (sorry but..) defendless truckboyz, so you either shoot the damn trucks or weapons, that are deleting your army. Can' t do both. Buggies deletes the anti infantry and mobile units and boyz are safe in second half of the game.

And the 1st Place also orks - 90 boyz, 2x5MAN, ghaz, warboss, weirboy, kffmek, nob banner and 3smg goffs. Exploding choppas. Sink the enemy under the models and dices. And let him miss the MANz that hit like a deathstar. It ' s the way how to play Ghazz “properly” - in pure inf list with support of manz.

Both lists are spam of one type of target.

I was also glad to see trukkboyz are still viable. Now if only I also had the buggies to support them lol

I've got an upcoming tourney 2k points with the GT missions and is enforcing that horrible painting rule. So this is a list that I conveniently have 100% painted and involves both the Gargantuan Squiggoth and Trukk Boyz. It's going off the assumption transports are being played RAI and not RAW of course.
The intention behind the list is that Trukk Boyz capitalise on mobility to score objectives. I am even hoping to use Trukks to block move block enemies where possible. The Gargantuan Squiggoth is going to have the KFF and Flash Gitz on board. It's just going to exist as a big threat to distract from the Trukks scoring. Ideally it will survive for a couple of turns and hammer down problematic units. If terrain allows it to be mobile enough, I would also like to use it as another obstacle my opponent has to deal with.
The Warboss will probably hitch a ride in a Trukk with the intent of getting stukk in on turn 2.
I think we all know what the Burna Bommer is there for.

Also secondaries:
Engage On All Fronts will be an auto take, the rest will be dependent on enemy army composition. I think Grind Them Down could be a safe pick against some armies. While we stand, We fight is tempting but the Flash Gitz and Gargantuan Squiggoth will be the biggest targets in my list. If I play against a list that doesn't look like it can answer it then I'll pick that. Investigate Sites is also a tempting one, depending on how confident I feel I can zone off the centre of the board.

PiñaColada wrote:
Yes, I understand that TBs are inferior to FGs when it comes to being dedicated primaries killers. But that's not their role really, they just have to be fairly decent at it. My point being that they're probably good enough to pull that double duty if your facing an infantry heavy SM list (especially if it's terminators, gravis, potentially those new heavy intercessors). If you're facing something a more balanced list then those TBs can easily demolish some tanks instead.

Tankbustas made out like bandits whereas Flash Gits did not, so if you're facing a bunch of Space Marines then obviously the Gits have a potential niche there but Tankbustas are weirdly just a much better TAC choice.

I agree that the two units have different juicy targets BUT tankbustas lost so much with 9th edition rules as they can't have access to their re-rolls and DDD while embarked. Without re-rolls they're an utterly overpriced unit and in the open they're way more squishy than gitz. Only way to make TB worhty is to bring a BM patrol, tellyport them and let them fire twice. Of course max unit to justify the investment in CPs. 315 points and 6 CPs, surely not a cheap combo.

But 17ppm boyz with rokkit in transports are trash unless they get their re-rolls back. Flash gitz also lose something while embarked but not that much.

https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html

Is anyone willing to type down these two lists for the first post?

miscNouns wrote:
I was thinking about trying out the Goff list that placed recently (https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html). What could I use to replace the smasha guns? I know I need some antitank but I'm not sure if I want to drop the money on mek gunz quite yet

One Trukk kit plus some random scrap (electrical wire, old spark plugs from my mechanic, some plasticard tube) gives you three Mek Gunz.

I ordered some civil war toys from the US which roughly match the mek gun size. Since I no longer need my 60 gretchin for troops, I might finally get to properly orking them up

I've played a few more games with my list from a few pages back, and have been trying some things out like rokkits on boys, big shootas on the gunwagon, etc. Mostly playing in against primaris ultras, dark angels, death guard and gsc (this is without the new MEQ +1 wound change). Can't remember how many I played, but I won more often than not.

I've settled on this list for the moment:



Things I've learned:
A bare bones unit of kommandos is definitely worth keeping in your back pocket to just creep onto an objective mid to late game to tip the scales in your favour. Won me a few games on their own to be honest.

The points spent on giving boys rokkits wasnt worth it. Even with the DS reroll it's still 10 points apiece for a shot that's more than likely not going anywhere. Same with the big shootas on the gunwagon; just not worth the points.

Opportunist on the defftrike with Gorks Roar is faaaaar better in this list than the redeployment one on the warboss. Sniping characters has also pulled the scales in my favour on a few occasions, whether it be by killing them or knocking a load of wounds off that other units then clear up. The redeployment one was making me play lazy and rely on the redeploy rather than just deploying smart in the first place.


The last handful of points I was considering putting a rigger on the third wagon to compensate the lack of an invuln. Thoughts on riggers?

 Afrodactyl wrote:
The last handful of points I was considering putting a rigger on the third wagon to compensate the lack of an invuln. Thoughts on riggers?

In my opinion, it's a good investment on a forktress or gunwagon, other battlewagons tend to disappear too fast for the 5 points to pay off.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

The last handful of points I was considering putting a rigger on the third wagon to compensate the lack of an invuln. Thoughts on riggers?

If you have a few spared points why not? We don't have many options to make good use of the spared points when we reach 1980-1995 points after listing the units we want to play. If you need to shave off something just to fit the riggers upgrade then no, leave it home.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Friendly games by all means ignore it, i am as like i said its a very obvious oversight. Its also an oversight that literally only affects orks, as only eldar/darkeldar have opentopped transports besides orks and they lack any rules that would actually be affected by this (what they do have specifically mentions in a transport)

Tournaments, its in the rules and is very clear so dont expect to get to use it unless you contact the TO first about it. This is, after all, a competitive talk thread so tournaments are in mind.

I mean, Dark Eldar and Harlequins can both play against enemy armies that have rules that give -1 to hit...

....If no "Within X Inches" ability applies while units are within a transport because they aren't on the battlefield, then why does Alaitoc's "Outside X Inches" ability apply? Heck, why does the "Splinter Racks" upgrade I bought on my Raider apply? - that's a rule. It seems pretty dang straightforward: You can't be targeted by psychic powers or stratagems, you can be affected by the current movement/engagement status of your transport and any modifiers affecting the transport affect the passengers.

So when a piece of dense cover terrain is between the transport and the target, the transport is at -1 to hit, the passengers are at -1 to hit.

When the transport is 14" away from an Alaitoc eldar target, the transport is -1 to hit, the passengers are -1 to hit.

When the transport is 18" away from a Freebootas model that kills an enemy model, the transport is +1 to hit, the passengers are +1 to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I ordered some civil war toys from the US which roughly match the mek gun size. Since I no longer need my 60 gretchin for troops, I might finally get to properly orking them up

Battalion Detachment Deffskullz

HQ: Warboss, Killa Klaw, Biggest Boss (-1CP)

HQ: Weirdboy, Warphead (-1CP)

Troops: 9 shoota boyz, Killsaw nob

Troops: 10 shoota boyz, Killsaw nob (Blasts be damned apparently!)

Troops: 10 shoota boyz, Killsaw nob

Troops: 10 shoota boyz, Killsaw nob

Troops: 10 Gretchin

Troops: 10 Gretchin

Elites: 4 Kommandos, Power Klaw Nob

Elites: 4 Kommandos, Power Klaw Nob

Elites: 4 Kommandos, Power Klaw Nob

Fast: 3x Kustom Boosta-Blastas

Fast: 3x Shokkjump Dragstas

Fast: 3x Megatrakk Skrapjets

Dedicated: Trukk

Dedicated: Trukk

Dedicated: Trukk

Dedicated: Trukk

1st place army

Battalion Goffs

HQ: Ghazghkull

HQ: Big Mek with KFF, Grot Oiler

HQ: Warboss, Attack Squig, Kombi-Rokkit, Brutal But Kunnin, Killa Klaw

Troops: 29x Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob

Troops: 29x Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob

Troops: 28x Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob

Elites: 5x Meganobz, Power Klaws

Elites: 5x Meganobz, Power Klaws

Elites: Waaaagh Banner Nob

Heavy: Smasha Gun


Heavy: Smasha Gun


Heavy: Smasha Gun

Patrol Detachment Goffs

HQ: Weirdboy (Warphead)

Troops: 10x Gretchin

The only change I would make to that goffs list (and goonhammer covered it in their faction focus) is to make the patrol a grot mob and move the smasha guns in there. No reason not to I think

 Billagio wrote:
The only change I would make to that goffs list (and goonhammer covered it in their faction focus) is to make the patrol a grot mob and move the smasha guns in there. No reason not to I think

I guess to heal the weirdboy with the Painboy from a perils?

But you could easily swap the KFF mek down and not lose anything either if that's a concern if you wanted to take Grot mobs.

The only reason I could think not to move them to the patrol is so that way you don't have to worry about losing any smasha gunz to failed morale checks, since they are only Ld4

Edit: It looks like I can't read. They are treated as independent units after deployment so it doesn't look like there is any downside to having them all be in a grot mob detachment

miscNouns wrote:
The only reason I could think not to move them to the patrol is so that way you don't have to worry about losing any smasha gunz to failed morale checks, since they are only Ld4

They are all independent units. Morale is a non-issue.

Smashas break up into individual units, the only ork vehicle unit in the game are grot tanks and killakanz.
Ironically, both with just as crappy leadership.

tulun wrote:

miscNouns wrote:
The only reason I could think not to move them to the patrol is so that way you don't have to worry about losing any smasha gunz to failed morale checks, since they are only Ld4

They are all independent units. Morale is a non-issue.

Until your idiot best friend deep strikes a lone deathwing librarian into your backfield and starts mindwiping your mek guns just because he can.

True story.

Anyone use lootas? I played a casual game of 9th with a friend who was running Deathwatch at 1500 points. My list was basically 3 big mobs of boyz plus a few buggies and wartrike baked up by 10 lootas and some other little units. The lootas Absolutely battered Primaris to death using the most dakka strat and death skulls re roll. In the end they killed 3 Primaris kill teams I was amazed at their fire power.

I think Lootas have sort of fallen out of favor. They can slap out damage for sure, but require protection, CP investment and are so incredibly swingy.

Lootas died to me the moment cover went to a modifier instead of a static 4+/5+ save.
They die way too easy w/o a 4+, even in older editions they died fairly quick the moment an ignore cover found them.

I would have pointed more to the various stratagems that can cancel stratagems. Meaning grot shields aren't reliable any more. (Grots going up in points and not being as mandatory to fill out detachments certainly doesn't help.)

Yeah Lootas are too expensive for how fragile they are and -1AP isn't really enough to cut it against the plethora of marines kicking about. They're also quite static without using Moar dakka, which can be a liability in the new edition since even Mek Gunz can move forward (even if very slowly) without having to worry about losing accuracy. They either need a points cut or have the deffgun buffed in some way (like flat 3 shots or AP-2) to justify their cost.

It kinda sucks because I feel like their unit is iconic of Deffskullz as a klan who is known for being hoarders of loot, so even if I were to try them out, I don't know if they'd be better off in a trukk or on foot.

Personally I've really taken a shine to tankbustas. A lot of the same issues but better Str, AP and damage, with a re-roll against their preferred target. Yeah you get less shots but at least you know exactly how many you're getting so you can build a plan around them. Kind of wish their ability worked against monsters as well though. Makes sense thematically and you don't feel hamstringed when you come across the odd tau or nid player.

Not sure if there's any interest, but I think a couple of really good Ork players discuss what they think of 9th and their games so far.

One primarily plays Mech (buggy), other plays horde, both they think have legs (as we've seen).

It's long, though.

https://bestinfaction.libsyn.com/64-faction-focus-orks-is-da-best

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone use lootas? I played a casual game of 9th with a friend who was running Deathwatch at 1500 points. My list was basically 3 big mobs of boyz plus a few buggies and wartrike baked up by 10 lootas and some other little units. The lootas Absolutely battered Primaris to death using the most dakka strat and death skulls re roll. In the end they killed 3 Primaris kill teams I was amazed at their fire power.

Lootas being 20ppm and Gretchins being 5ppm killed them completely, and I wasn't a big fan of Lootas even in 8th.

For the same amount of poinits invested in Lootas + Gretchins or just only Lootas you could field tons fo Smasha Gunz which are capable of more damage against Primaris, they don't need CPs to work, and they're much more resilient. One Smasha Gun is exactly two Lootas:

2 Lootas: 2W T4 6+ and 2D3 BS5+ S7 AP-1 D2
Smasha Gun: 5W T5 5+ and D3 BS4+ S* (equivalent or better than S7 against T4/5) AP-4 DD6


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Personally I've really taken a shine to tankbustas. A lot of the same issues but better Str, AP and damage, with a re-roll against their preferred target. Yeah you get less shots but at least you know exactly how many you're getting so you can build a plan around them. Kind of wish their ability worked against monsters as well though. Makes sense thematically and you don't feel hamstringed when you come across the odd tau or nid player.

How do you play them? Deepstrike, shielded by gretchins or embarked? Since they've lost their re-roll while inside a vehicle I've shelved them completely, I loved them in 8th and was excited that they didn't go up a point in 9th (actually a single point considering the full trukk unit, 254 vs 255, lol) but they have been nerfed quite badly with the new rules about firing from a vehicle.

In a mechanized list, you could put your lootas in a trukk and sit them somewhere behind some -1 to hit terrain. I feel like that would be a royal PITA to remove, and it's not like they need to move anywhere. Particularly in a buggy list, where you're going to have a bunch of stuff running around the board scoring points and the loota trukk is going to be chilling in the background, i think that's got some legs in a primaris-heavy meta.

Lootas I'd say would be one of those units where, yes, they're inefficient in some kind of theoretical perfect faction-spread environment, but over here in reality where you'll have intercessors to shoot nearly every game, they can be a useful piece to have.

They are a bit boring though. Basically just reflavored Mek Gunz.

It doesn' t make sence to move lootas in transport. What makes sence is ae a max squad, deploy them T1 behind the biggest runins, Da Jump them to the firing position, More Dakka to ignore penalties for heavy + move and than Bad Moons shoot twice (still with More Dakka).

This is Devastating. Do not bother with +1sv. Who cares? It doesn' t save anything. If enemy concentrate fire, than the lootas are dead. Only hope is grot shield = you spent about 5CP per turn just on lootas + have 10-30 grots in front of them. This was great in 8th. With cheap grots and lootas. But now? Lootas can' t hold objective. 1W and t-shirt save = they' re dead.

 Tomsug wrote:
It doesn' t make sence to move lootas in transport. What makes sence is ae a max squad, deploy them T1 behind the biggest runins, Da Jump them to the firing position, More Dakka to ignore penalties for heavy + move and than Bad Moons shoot twice (still with More Dakka).

This is Devastating. Do not bother with +1sv. Who cares? It doesn' t save anything. If enemy concentrate fire, than the lootas are dead. Only hope is grot shield = you spent about 5CP per turn just on lootas + have 10-30 grots in front of them. This was great in 8th. With cheap grots and lootas. But now? Lootas can' t hold objective. 1W and t-shirt save = they' re dead.

If I'm running mech orks, I'm only starting with 5-6CP. I'd rather spend 65 points on a trukk than whatever 50 points on a weirdboy to da jump them and then 2CP so they can still shoot good.

You don't move the lootas in the transport. You just sit the trukk behind some dense cover and use their 48" range. a -1 to hit trukk 48" away is a ridiculously low-priority target for most opponents.

I'm in agreement that the old, super-spendy approach does not really work anymore. I'm saying that, into a heavy primaris meta and in an ork meta where you don't have tons of CP to burn, spending a few more points just to use them as an anti-MEQ fire support unit seems to be able to work pretty well, they get several turns of uninterrupted shooting and if they are distracting they tend to be a pretty inefficient target to shoot, because you have to kill a whole trukk before you're able to even take shots at the -1 to hit lootas.

I agree that a trukk in a mechanized list is a better way to protect the lootas than Da Jump or Grot Shields.

10 lootas and a trukk are 265 points though. With no re-rolls or DDD.

A full battery of Smasha Gunz is cheaper, more effective and more resilient and Da Boomer is just 175 + 1 CP for arguably the same amount of firepower.

Tactics with lootas involving Da Jump and massed CPs invested on them were good when we could field the 25 unit and start with 18 (or more) CPs. Not anymore. Just play tankbustas that way, they're more killy than lootas against the appropriate target and probably require less CPs.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that a trukk in a mechanized list is a better way to protect the lootas than Da Jump or Grot Shields.

10 lootas and a trukk are 265 points though. With no re-rolls or DDD.

A full battery of Smasha Gunz is cheaper, more effective and more resilient and Da Boomer is just 175 + 1 CP for arguably the same amount of firepower.

Tactics with lootas involving Da Jump and massed CPs invested on them were good when we could field the 25 unit and start with 18 (or more) CPs. Not anymore. Just play tankbustas that way, they're more killy than lootas against the appropriate target and probably require less CPs.

I feel like they're pretty balanced against Da Boomer, because 1, it does cost CP, 2, your opponent puts the same amount of firepower into Da Boomer as the lootas' trukk and they've at least reduced Da Boomer's firepower by about 45% while the lootas are only lose 17% firepower (from the trukk being destroyed killing 1.7 lootas).

They're definitely outdone by smashas, especially in cheeky zoggers.

Personally I don't find something not doing the job quite as good as the single best option in the entire codex disqualifies them from usefulness entirely if someone owns the models for them but happens to not own $330 of Smasha Gunz.

Reduced booma firepower? How?
Wagons of all variants dont degrade their BS. In fact i dont think any ork codex model does (some forgeworld does for some odd reason)
Its speed, strength, and attacks change. Periscope max distance changes but largely who cares i've rarely moved it more than a couple inches anyway, usually after i move it once it never moves again.

Lootas lose firepower for every single wound after that trukk blows up, dabooma is firing at full power until it either cant hit anything w/o moving 6" (unlikely) or blows up.

Also dabooma really only eats 1cp, ever. Only time ive popped moar dakka on it was when i was using it to snipe a plane out of the air. Lootas will eat 2-4 every turn theyre alive.

How they spend 2-4? The guy is using trukk, -1 to hit and range to protect rather than grot　screen.

Edit: also not benefitting from rerolls and ddd inside trukk　also helps survival as they are even　less of a priority for opponent to take out rather than 'nauts, battlewagons or buggy　swarm

Where do you place the Grot Tanks and Grot Mega tank here on this list?

Why on earth would you run lootas to kill primaris? They suck at killing them, especially if those marines are in cover.

Even with moar dakka on it, a unit of 15 lootas which is 300 points right now, kills and average of 4 primaris marines out of cover and just 2 in cover.
Even if you hit the jackpot and catch a unit of hellblasters out of cover, we are talking about killing 132 points of marines with the points equivalent of a naut or three buggies.
And don't even think about shooting aggressors or erradicators with them.

Lootas never have and never will be good at killing marines and never will be. 2 damage doesn't automatically make you good at killing primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Where do you place the Grot Tanks and Grot Mega tank here on this list?

Red? They are strictly worse than some units in the yellow to blue area.

Beardedragon wrote:
Where do you place the Grot Tanks and Grot Mega tank here on this list?

I would say "generally useless, just run your GMT as a skrapjet and your Grot Tanks as...I don't know, Mek Gunz?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually that's not a bad idea. Mek Gunz and Grot Tanks are about the same size....

What if i run that Grot detatchment that makes Grots more useful? where are the Grot tanks then? and Mega tank

Beardedragon wrote:
What if i run that Grot detatchment that makes Grots more useful? where are the Grot tanks then? and Mega tank

Same boat. The grot mega tank is just a shockingly bad vehicle for the cost, there are a number of good things to run it as - booma battlewagon, shokkjump dragsta, various and sundry other FW choices, and grot tanks are basically just killa kanz with "fun" random movement and no melee capability.

the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
What if i run that Grot detatchment that makes Grots more useful? where are the Grot tanks then? and Mega tank

Same boat. The grot mega tank is just a shockingly bad vehicle for the cost, there are a number of good things to run it as - booma battlewagon, shokkjump dragsta, various and sundry other FW choices, and grot tanks are basically just killa kanz with "fun" random movement and no melee capability.

with that 1+ to hit for the Grot special detatchment i thought maybe the Grot mega tank which sits around 130 points could be a decent shooting platform

Grot detachment is reroll 1s not +1 to hit.

I ran the grottanks (both of them) a few times in 8th and had pretty good success but they got hyked to hell and back in 9th for some reason. Killakanz too.
A killakan should not be 1-3pts more than a grottank...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot detachment is reroll 1s not +1 to hit.

I ran the grottanks (both of them) a few times in 8th and had pretty good success but they got hyked to hell and back in 9th for some reason. Killakanz too.
A killakan should not be 1-3pts more than a grottank...

yea.. i mean i received for free 4 grot tanks from Kromlech i wanted to put to use, so i thought about putting them in that Grot detatchment for 1+ hit (i think thats what it did anyway) for vehicles.

thats why i wanted to know how high or low they were on the rating

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Reduced booma firepower? How?
Wagons of all variants dont degrade their BS. In fact i dont think any ork codex model does (some forgeworld does for some odd reason)
Its speed, strength, and attacks change. Periscope max distance changes but largely who cares i've rarely moved it more than a couple inches anyway, usually after i move it once it never moves again.

Lootas lose firepower for every single wound after that trukk blows up, dabooma is firing at full power until it either cant hit anything w/o moving 6" (unlikely) or blows up.

Also dabooma really only eats 1cp, ever. Only time ive popped moar dakka on it was when i was using it to snipe a plane out of the air. Lootas will eat 2-4 every turn theyre alive.

I think the Wazbom degrades in BS, actually all the planes might, I'm not by my codex atm but I'm 100% sure the wazbom degrades with BS as I used to use 3 in 8th

The planes go to BS6+ yes.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot detachment is reroll 1s not +1 to hit.

I ran the grottanks (both of them) a few times in 8th and had pretty good success but they got hyked to hell and back in 9th for some reason. Killakanz too.
A killakan should not be 1-3pts more than a grottank...

yea.. i mean i received for free 4 grot tanks from Kromlech i wanted to put to use, so i thought about putting them in that Grot detatchment for 1+ hit (i think thats what it did anyway) for vehicles.

thats why i wanted to know how high or low they were on the rating

Run them as a battery of mek gunz. That'd be the best use for 'em. Grot tanks are essentially killa kanz, which are bad, with no melee capability and a random move characteristic, which is worse. I think they also have like 1 fewer wound, and the grot detachment gets you a 6++ invuln save which sadly the grot tank already has, so it doesn't benefit from it.

Just run them as mek gunz. If your opponent asks why they only move like 3" just explain they're really slow tanks XD

the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot detachment is reroll 1s not +1 to hit.

I ran the grottanks (both of them) a few times in 8th and had pretty good success but they got hyked to hell and back in 9th for some reason. Killakanz too.
A killakan should not be 1-3pts more than a grottank...

yea.. i mean i received for free 4 grot tanks from Kromlech i wanted to put to use, so i thought about putting them in that Grot detatchment for 1+ hit (i think thats what it did anyway) for vehicles.

thats why i wanted to know how high or low they were on the rating

Run them as a battery of mek gunz. That'd be the best use for 'em. Grot tanks are essentially killa kanz, which are bad, with no melee capability and a random move characteristic, which is worse. I think they also have like 1 fewer wound, and the grot detachment gets you a 6++ invuln save which sadly the grot tank already has, so it doesn't benefit from it.

Just run them as mek gunz. If your opponent asks why they only move like 3" just explain they're really slow tanks XD

The grots are obviously scooting them around with their feet, flintstones style

10 lootas in trukk with no rerolls and no strategems are week. It’s about 20% of the damage they used to do... and it used to be based on d3 roll and 1-2 used to be gak. So sorry, no:( I like them and I used them a lot but now, it´ s no choice.

Yeah, the only way I could see lootas being viable in the slightest at the moment is in bad moons, and if you just absolutely maxed out your army with them. And even then they almost definitely wouldn't be worth the investment.

I'm intending to give them a try, my tactic is to put them in a trukk and sit it in the backfield. I reason that it gives them more scope for running from threatening units, gives them a trukkload of ablative wounds, an all-or-nothing line of sight system (yep, they all shoot from the bumper), the ability to avoid a turn of combat, if they're lucky. I'll save the stratagems for other things, I feel that lootas will do a decent bit of damage to light vehicles, like they used to. I'll not be primaris-hunting unless they are in the open.

I'm curious about lootas in a trukk with the klever spanner strat. Take 9, including a spanner to keep the cost down. Get pretty much always the max amount of shots unless you're quite unlucky. It's not really dangerous, but dangerous enough.

The only problem is that stupid rule where there are no abilities within transports.

Gruxz wrote:
I'm curious about lootas in a trukk with the klever spanner strat. Take 9, including a spanner to keep the cost down. Get pretty much always the max amount of shots unless you're quite unlucky. It's not really dangerous, but dangerous enough.

The only problem is that stupid rule where there are no abilities within transports.

That's a good thought. for 1CP to make them reliable for the whole game (or their whole life, whichever is shorter), hat's a good strat to be using. Helps to not need to throw CP at them through the game.

 some bloke wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
I'm curious about lootas in a trukk with the klever spanner strat. Take 9, including a spanner to keep the cost down. Get pretty much always the max amount of shots unless you're quite unlucky. It's not really dangerous, but dangerous enough.

The only problem is that stupid rule where there are no abilities within transports.

That's a good thought. for 1CP to make them reliable for the whole game (or their whole life, whichever is shorter), hat's a good strat to be using. Helps to not need to throw CP at them through the game.

Exactly, especially when in a mech heavy list with a lot of kustom jobs, this might be the best approach to them. It's still pricey, but they're not a huge threat, since people don't see 45 shots flying at them. Kustom mega blasta inside is also quite nice for a lost vehicle.

But how does the meta translate the abilities inside transports?

A spanna with KMB in a loota mob is 30 ppm though...

In addition, if your groups follows the RAW interpretation that nothing can affect models in transports, then klever spanner doesn't do anything either.

 Jidmah wrote:
A spanna with KMB in a loota mob is 30 ppm though...

In addition, if your groups follows the RAW interpretation that nothing can affect models in transports, then klever spanner doesn't do anything either.

This is likely bs. I hope they address this soon.

But regardless, Lootas are bad. The only thing that made them worth a damn was Bad Moons shoot twice. And putting them in a trukk means they are immobile unless you want them hitting on 6s.. just run the numbers on Lootas hitting on 6s. It's a joke.

Right now, it's tankbustas that are value for money. Flash Gits I think are actually fine (in spite of the rather awful point increase), but I understand trepidation on not paying that many points for them. If you own any Squiggoths or Garg Squigs though...

it likely is an oversight, just email the 40kfaq about it.
It only affects orks so not a lot of people are gonna complain about it.

Just out of curiosity, is this list purposefully missing some units that arent available anymore or is that a mistake?

Mega-Dread
Big Trakk
Regular Squiggoth
Grot tanks
Grot Mega-tank

If it was a mistake, where are these units ranked?

tried a few different things now guys and I have a list which is putting up consistent wins against all comers.

Trukkboys is where its at for me. Force your opponent to kill those 65 pt trukks to get to the obsec inside.
I'm running 5-6 units of them, Deathskulls with a klaw boss and a single Rokkit Launcha.

Also running 3 Scrapjets with Korkscrew and a single Shokkjump for Jump-shoot-Jump shenanighans.

That's the base.

Can flavour it with a Burna bomba or 2, or some meganobz.

I also like one or two Deff Koptas for throwaway units that are great for Engage on all fronts.

You just put so much on objectives and use the trukks to block off avenues of advance for your opponents scary units.

Been working really well for me, unbeaten in 6 with this list.

Also running a 20 grot screen in this list which can pen your opponent back in his deployment zone for a turn if you jump them 9" outside his deployment zone nice and stretched out with the T Bone on the ends for unit coherency.

Beardedragon wrote:
Just out of curiosity, is this list purposefully missing some units that arent available anymore or is that a mistake?

Mega-Dread
Big Trakk
Regular Squiggoth
Grot tanks
Grot Mega-tank

If it was a mistake, where are these units ranked?

The list is made up of experience reported in posts of communities I frequent, battle reports and tournament data. For most of these you have many people theory-crafting around them, but few to no people are actually reporting back any experience with them. On top of that, the few people that do run those models tend to be using them in extremely casual environments, making it hard to judge them.

If you wanted my opinion on them, the big trakk is probably blue, dread and squiggoth yellow, grot tanks red. But I really would have nothing to back that up.

There is also a forgeworld book due sometime in this edition.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Just out of curiosity, is this list purposefully missing some units that arent available anymore or is that a mistake?

Mega-Dread
Big Trakk
Regular Squiggoth
Grot tanks
Grot Mega-tank

If it was a mistake, where are these units ranked?

The list is made up of experience reported in posts of communities I frequent, battle reports and tournament data. For most of these you have many people theory-crafting around them, but few to no people are actually reporting back any experience with them. On top of that, the few people that do run those models tend to be using them in extremely casual environments, making it hard to judge them.

If you wanted my opinion on them, the big trakk is probably blue, dread and squiggoth yellow, grot tanks red. But I really would have nothing to back that up.

I see. I was just thinking the Big Trakk with Super Scorchas would be insanely incredible. i mean a more powerful -2 ap flamethrower that hits 24 inches away? sounds amazing.

Honestly, a KBB using the burnin' highway stratagem is very close to that and is much cheaper. But yes, the supa skorcha is the reason I see it as a blue choice.

The Big Trakk with SupaScorcha was a top tier choice sometime in the not too distant past when Orks really seemed to lack shooting - near start of 8th Ed. when Orks didn't have a codex? I can't quite remember.

I think we have better shooty options now that buggies have their Kustom Jobs and points drop, also BW with Da Boomer or Smasha guns (I know stationary) but are all probably better choices.

"Top tier" would imply a regular showing in top placing tournament lists or at least a regular showing in battle reports.
Unlike Zardsnark or the giant squiggoth, the big trakk never showed up even once in any top placing list.

I think it's value is massively overestimated, but as I said before, I'm simply lacking data to back up that claim.

I think it suffered from eligibility in many tourneys because it is a FW / non-codex model? Could could explain the lack of use and data.

Did you miss my 'was' then referring to a brief moment in time? Then also going on to state that there are definitely better options now? I watched a fair few battle reports on YouTube and a couple of dedicated Ork players used it to great success during the time period I was talking about. Used it myself a couple of times - albeit in relatively casual games and it was a top performer.

Also, if you want to be snarky Orks don't 'regularly' take top placing in tourneys full stop. So maybe throw out your entire list if that is the requirement? We rejoice and hold up the potential 'anomalous' cases when such a feat does occur.

crzylgs wrote:
I think it suffered from eligibility in many tourneys because it is a FW / non-codex model? Could could explain the lack of use and data.

FW was legal for all of ITC. And as I said, multiple other FW units did appear in top lists.

Did you miss my 'was' then referring to a brief moment in time?

I didn't. It never was top tier, because it never appeared in any top army in any larger event. I go through all top 4 placements of GTs after each weekend in search of ork players doing good, and the big trakk never appeared once during all of 8th, unlike the squiggoth or Zardsnark.
In the times before the codex, orks were almost exclusively running green tides with the odd gargantuan squiggoth taking a win here and there.

Then also going on to state that there are definitely better options now? I watched a fair few battle reports on YouTube and a couple of dedicated Ork players used it to great success during the time period I was talking about.

Feel free to link those. As I said, I'm not aware of any.

Also, if you want to be snarky Orks don't 'regularly' take top placing in tourneys full stop. So maybe throw out your entire list if that is the requirement? We rejoice and hold up the potential 'anomalous' cases when such a feat does occur.

If my post came across as "snarky", I'm sorry, but I was merely stating facts. I have tracked all GT data since the beginning of 8th and read every post on the topic of ork tactica on all of dakka plus other communities like reddit. The vast majority of musing on the big trakk is of theoretical nature and almost all of the battle reports are extremely casual lists facing opponents of similar nature.
Feel free to provide lists, battle reports and tournament placement with big trakks inside of them. I don't know you well since you only post sporadically, so even though you seem to be a decent guy, I have no idea of how competitive your gaming experience is. So I'm sorry for not just taking your word for it.
You're also wrong about the orks placing regularly in tournaments, until the SM 2.0 disaster there was about one ork top 4 placement per week, plus you can often find people on reddit digging for the best ork list in the event. It's definitely enough data to judge whether a unit is worth of tournament play or not.
Which brings me to my original point - I don't *have* enough data for the big trakk to make a decision, that's why it's not on the list. Neither me nor the guys I sometimes borrow models from have one and there is no real experience on it to be found from people online. On top of that, it's a fairly unique unit somewhere between battlewagon and buggies, so you can't judge it by comparing it to similar units, like the kustom stompa or chinork.

As someone who owns a Supa Skorcha Big trakk, I love the damn thing. It's LOADS of fun.

I doubt it'll ever be featured in top tournament play, though.

185 points for 15W, T6, 4+ save... that's not gonna fly when you can get a Bonebreaker w/ Grot riggers for the exact same cost. Or the Battlewagon with Deff Rolla for 30 points cheaper

I think it has plenty of play in semi competitive, though. Buckets of fun. But against super tuned lists, say with triple eradicators? yeah, not at that price.

If the Big Trakks comes down in points to account for its somewhat flimsy body, I think it could see play.

Edit: Just as a point of comparison, albeit slightly different as the Big Trakk IS open topped, so it can be used a bit differently for the units inside...

Da Boomer Gunwagon shoots 14 times on average. As a Deathskull, with 2 hit re-rolls and explosions, this is about 7 hits with some mental math.

It has 1 more wound, 2 more toughness, longer range, a higher strength gun with better damage... and it's also 10 points cheaper.

The Big Trakk really suffers from it's head scratcher 155 point cost before adding the big gun...

Removed - Rule #1 please

Just went to an RTT and went :

93/59 vs Orks.
36/99 vs Ad Mech
95/62 vs TS


If somebody have an answer to 6 bellisarius, 3 skorpius and 30 priests in boats, give me a call. The dude have a whopping 100% win rate, minus a draw, vs me and he´s my regular sparring partner.

He´s is also the top 2 or 3 AD mech player of the last 3 years, but still....
I really have no idea how to play, if i´m the back he will delete me from afar and i get no primaries, if I go midfiled 30 CC priest do an average of 16MW on charge, can fight tiwce and boost their Invu to 2++.
Either way, I´m fethed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My list was a bunch of trukkboyz, 2 bombers, a forktress bonebreaka, some kommandos backed by a warboss and a watrike BTW

crzylgs wrote:
Removed - Rule #1 please

Jidmah has a grip bud. He puts a ton of time into researching placings of ork players in tournaments and has explained to you whatt fits criteria for tthe unit ranking. But by all means go ahead and call him snarky, a nazi etc.

tulun wrote:
As someone who owns a Supa Skorcha Big trakk, I love the damn thing. It's LOADS of fun.

I doubt it'll ever be featured in top tournament play, though.

185 points for 15W, T6, 4+ save... that's not gonna fly when you can get a Bonebreaker w/ Grot riggers for the exact same cost. Or the Battlewagon with Deff Rolla for 30 points cheaper

I think it has plenty of play in semi competitive, though. Buckets of fun. But against super tuned lists, say with triple eradicators? yeah, not at that price.

If the Big Trakks comes down in points to account for its somewhat flimsy body, I think it could see play.

Edit: Just as a point of comparison, albeit slightly different as the Big Trakk IS open topped, so it can be used a bit differently for the units inside...

Da Boomer Gunwagon shoots 14 times on average. As a Deathskull, with 2 hit re-rolls and explosions, this is about 7 hits with some mental math.

It has 1 more wound, 2 more toughness, longer range, a higher strength gun with better damage... and it's also 10 points cheaper.

The Big Trakk really suffers from it's head scratcher 155 point cost before adding the big gun...

But.. a super scorcha actually hits no matter what. it only needs its wounds roll

Finally got a game of 9th yay! Bloody virus.

Was 1K I took a trio of trukkboys with a rokkit and big choopa nob with a forktress rolla wagon filled with 4 meganobs and a biggest boss (And a KFF mek hanging about). I made them evil suns mostly because it felt like the extra movement would be handy here and there.

He took farsight tau with a bunch of breachers, drones and a pair of commanders and a pair of ghostkeels.

Trukks do feel decently tanky in small sized games, he only managed to kill one and the wagon by the end. Tried having 2 choppa boyz mobs driving forward while a shoota boyz mob camped an objective near my deployment. Throwing trukks into combat with things is damn helpful, fly isn't the auto win button it used to be so you can actually reduce the enemies firepower in a decent exchange. Biggest boss is absolutely awesome, as are meganobs. Sadly the forktress got his ass blown up by the fusionkeel.

Still not sure what secondaries are good for orks to achieve, but managed to win about 62 to 48 and in the last few turns killed pretty much everything he had with the nob sergeants left over from the boyz after the lads caught a bunch of bullets. Moral doesn't feel as brutal as it could last edition, you lose 6 boyz in a small unit and you're not guaranteed to lose the rest.

Beardedragon wrote:


But.. a super scorcha actually hits no matter what. it only needs its wounds roll

It has less variance, but you still roll for shots.

Point is, something with a similar output has T8, 16 wounds, and a better range... Big Trakks are just *super* expensive. They need to come down like 20-25% and we might have a stew going.

tulun wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


But.. a super scorcha actually hits no matter what. it only needs its wounds roll

It has less variance, but you still roll for shots.

Point is, something with a similar output has T8, 16 wounds, and a better range... Big Trakks are just *super* expensive. They need to come down like 20-25% and we might have a stew going.

Pretty much this. The problem is that even with the amount of hits it gets, it's only 1D at the end of the day, and that's something we kinda already have as an army in spades. If it was 2D, then we'd have a damn good primaris mulcher, but as it is now, it's only really good against targets that we largely don't have issues with, barring a few exceptions like stuff with negatives to hit.

Even those don't hit as hard as they used to in 9th. Swinging killsaws at stuff with -1s to hit is a good feeling since it's just 4s now rather than hah you took an expensive specialist weapon? You're hitting on 6s now biatch.

cody.d. wrote:
Even those don't hit as hard as they used to in 9th. Swinging killsaws at stuff with -1s to hit is a good feeling since it's just 4s now rather than hah you took an expensive specialist weapon? You're hitting on 6s now biatch.

Yeah, I'm glad we don't have worry about stupid Eldar negative to hit mod stacking anymore. A unit having a functional -3 to hit after all their combos was just annoying, even with DDD!

Still keen to see how many statlines change for the orks (Whenever the mork that happens) Will Klaws and saws change to match Pfists for imperium? Will big shootas and big choppas get a change perhaps?

cody.d. wrote:
Still keen to see how many statlines change for the orks (Whenever the mork that happens) Will Klaws and saws change to match Pfists for imperium? Will big shootas and big choppas get a change perhaps?

I wouldn't keep your hopes up, just because usually our analogues to Imperials are almost always inferior. However, assuming they do the bare minimum and change our stuff to match, that would be good, since atm there's almost no reason to take klaws over saws with their same price point. I feel Big Choppas won't change that much, at most they make it higher in strength or AP by 1 (either one is good, since it makes Nobz hit that S8 threshold or do extra work against higher armoured units). Big Shootas are a big wildcard, since I feel like they're unlikely to become D2 for some reason, but if they do get buffed, I'd prefer AP-1 and being beefed up to Assault 5 or 6 at it's current cost. Most units that have big shootas don't usually want to shoot at multi-wound models anyways, so I'd like it to be actually good at the thing it's supposed to be, mow down chaff and other basic infantry units.

My bigger question is if they'll bother buffing up baseline choppas or power stabbas in anyway. Power stabbas might just get +1S or AP, and I wouldn't expect choppas to get the armywide -1 AP that astartes chainswords get, but it's possible choppas either give +1S or -1AP in the first round of combat so that way we don't feel like boyz bounce off units completely now.

On a more tactics note, has anyone tried using deffkoptas at all recently? I'm debating whether or not they're worth a potential fast attack slot because I'm finding that it's hard to always get linebreaker with a buggy list given how big our base sizes are for them and they're a useful and relatively low profile fast way to almost guarantee getting the point for that.

Just played my first couple 1000 point lists of 9th...

Jesus that board is way too small. I could barely deploy my army. It felt incredibly aggro -- seems like there was no room to maneuver.

tulun wrote:
Just played my first couple 1000 point lists of 9th...

Jesus that board is way too small. I could barely deploy my army. It felt incredibly aggro -- seems like there was no room to maneuver.

Yeah, the smallest size is Just for 500 point games IMO, I mean it's great for orks as mid-range shooting and melee gets to work T1.

tulun wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


But.. a super scorcha actually hits no matter what. it only needs its wounds roll

It has less variance, but you still roll for shots.

Point is, something with a similar output has T8, 16 wounds, and a better range... Big Trakks are just *super* expensive. They need to come down like 20-25% and we might have a stew going.

Alas in new book more likely it is only armed with big shootas and that's it. No flamer anymore.

The supa-kannon is still for sale, so that option might remain.

I've had good luck with Gorkanauts in games of 9th, them and Deff Dreads moving up as a large group, plus I just got a Wartrike so I'm curious as to how that could help them in the same fashion that a Warboss helps my old Ork Boy rush. Plus in a larger game the Mork rounds them out with some nasty shooting. Though I give up my mek gunz for it. I've had a lot of success so far in slamming Ork Boyz and Walkers down the enemy's throat, but I plan on a battlewagon list next time I have the time.

Have been able to play several games of 9th and late 8th because I built a table for it back in late 7th edition. Smaller table sizes are a serious boon for me and my Tyranids and Orks.

Note: I don't face many high ROF guns in my local meta since our Guard/Chaos player resigned from the hobby, loads of plasma and bolters but I can slog through it and making contact is awesome for my Orks.

panzerfront14 wrote:
I've had good luck with Gorkanauts in games of 9th, them and Deff Dreads moving up as a large group, plus I just got a Wartrike so I'm curious as to how that could help them in the same fashion that a Warboss helps my old Ork Boy rush. Plus in a larger game the Mork rounds them out with some nasty shooting. Though I give up my mek gunz for it. I've had a lot of success so far in slamming Ork Boyz and Walkers down the enemy's throat, but I plan on a battlewagon list next time I have the time.

Have been able to play several games of 9th and late 8th because I built a table for it back in late 7th edition. Smaller table sizes are a serious boon for me and my Tyranids and Orks.

Note: I don't face many high ROF guns in my local meta since our Guard/Chaos player resigned from the hobby, loads of plasma and bolters but I can slog through it and making contact is awesome for my Orks.

What clan do you run with?

I normally play Goffs, as that was what I painted them as back in 7th when that sort of thing didn't matter, normally a bunch of Meganobz Da Jumped into a section of the enemy where I need them to crumple but its more about making a major blow to the enemy, right before the rest of my army makes an impact to break them at that point.

I generally stick the two Deff Dreads (only have 2) into a teleporta and drop them in on the enemy right when my Boyz and Naut make contact. Helps that the Admech castles I normally fight sort of crumple when I make contact but the Dark Angels that have been putting that to the test. Large Intercessor squads using that Rapid fire 2 stratagem of theres and Black Knights to cover the field in plasma, plus a Dark Talon and Dread to try and kill the Naut. KFFs come in handy a lot vs them.

I can't run a bunch of buggies like I see in lists here, most of what I own is Boyz, Nobz (and Megas) walkers and artillery.

 Grimskul wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Still keen to see how many statlines change for the orks (Whenever the mork that happens) Will Klaws and saws change to match Pfists for imperium? Will big shootas and big choppas get a change perhaps?

On a more tactics note, has anyone tried using deffkoptas at all recently? I'm debating whether or not they're worth a potential fast attack slot because I'm finding that it's hard to always get linebreaker with a buggy list given how big our base sizes are for them and they're a useful and relatively low profile fast way to almost guarantee getting the point for that.

I used them in a game against DG this weekend. I deepstruck a squad of 2 in turn 2 and used them to tie up his Plagueburst crawler for 2 turns. At 35pts with the big shoota loadout I think they are cheap enough to use like that or to contest backfield objectives. Granted, this was a pretty casual game since we are still getting used to 9th.

On another note, I'd like to confirm that Kans are still hot garbage. I had a Big Mek with KFF babysitting them and they were still extremely fragile at T5. I think they managed to kill 3 plague marines before getting tarpitted and mauled by a group of 20 poxwalkers backed up by Typhus and the Bellman. I think they need something like Ramshackle or a serious points drop before I'd call them a decent choice for a mech list.

 Emicrania wrote:
Just went to an RTT and went :

93/59 vs Orks.
36/99 vs Ad Mech
95/62 vs TS


If somebody have an answer to 6 bellisarius, 3 skorpius and 30 priests in boats, give me a call. The dude have a whopping 100% win rate, minus a draw, vs me and he´s my regular sparring partner.

He´s is also the top 2 or 3 AD mech player of the last 3 years, but still....
I really have no idea how to play, if i´m the back he will delete me from afar and i get no primaries, if I go midfiled 30 CC priest do an average of 16MW on charge, can fight tiwce and boost their Invu to 2++.
Either way, I´m fethed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My list was a bunch of trukkboyz, 2 bombers, a forktress bonebreaka, some kommandos backed by a warboss and a watrike BTW

Sounds to me that you are best suited to answer your own question.
T3 infantry with 2++ should be a good target for a large unit of boyz.

 Nora wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Just went to an RTT and went :

93/59 vs Orks.
36/99 vs Ad Mech
95/62 vs TS


If somebody have an answer to 6 bellisarius, 3 skorpius and 30 priests in boats, give me a call. The dude have a whopping 100% win rate, minus a draw, vs me and he´s my regular sparring partner.

He´s is also the top 2 or 3 AD mech player of the last 3 years, but still....
I really have no idea how to play, if i´m the back he will delete me from afar and i get no primaries, if I go midfiled 30 CC priest do an average of 16MW on charge, can fight tiwce and boost their Invu to 2++.
Either way, I´m fethed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My list was a bunch of trukkboyz, 2 bombers, a forktress bonebreaka, some kommandos backed by a warboss and a watrike BTW

Sounds to me that you are best suited to answer your own question.
T3 infantry with 2++ should be a good target for a large unit of boyz.

Honestly, that sounds rough.

If you can even get 150 attacks in, you go down to 100 hits, 67 wounds, and you kill a grand total of... 11 priests. Woof.

So I think the combo works is that it can only be done on a single unit (Acquisition at any cost strat) and the unit HAS to kill a unit in the fight phase in order to get down to a 3++ in the first place. I think you just need to target priority them off the board if they are causing you so many headaches and try to make it incredibly difficult to kill something squishy. Easier said than done.

Otherwise, the only way to efficiently bring them down is probably Goff boys (Skar is irrelevant in this case) with the re-roll 1s of Ghaz, and a Waaagh banner nearby. That should probably allow you enough efficiency to even break that 2++. Orks can get a decent amount of mortal wounds from buggies too like the Mega Trakk, and their big shootas are optimal for killing a T3 high invul target.

actually its worse than that.

They also have a 5+++

Priests that have killed something to get the 3++ and are near an objective for the strat to boost it ot 2++ are disgustingly hard to get rid of.

I only have 1 squad of priests for my admech and my friends will gladly spend a third of their army to delete them asap before they get to that point lol

Their only real drawback is T3, so while theyre incredibly difficult to get a wound through its not hard to make them keep trying. But with a 2++/5+++ its...easily possible the dice just say "no" and they never die lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
actually its worse than that.

They also have a 5+++

Priests that have killed something to get the 3++ and are near an objective for the strat to boost it ot 2++ are disgustingly hard to get rid of.

I only have 1 squad of priests for my admech and my friends will gladly spend a third of their army to delete them asap before they get to that point lol

Their only real drawback is T3, so while theyre incredibly difficult to get a wound through its not hard to make them keep trying. But with a 2++/5+++ its...easily possible the dice just say "no" and they never die lol.

Well then.

Yeah, you can't let them ascend to their godhood. But it only happens if they kill something in the fight phase... I guess just bring enough guns to make this incredibly difficult?

Or the aforementioned stacking as many str 4 attacks with re-rolls as possible. They are 17 points each, so that is a quarter of army alone BEFORE transports.

The problem is that when they sit on the boat, they can scout for 1cp and have than a treath range of 21-27". Is fuckin M E N T A L.
Ad mech are broken man, anything you do, they have something better.

Explode a veichle? 0 CP strat for free emergency des.

Charge the Horses? 1 CP strat autoflee 12"

Wanna ignore the priest? 6 Bellisarius for 4 CP shoot 28 S8 autocannon with plus MW that hits on 2+ and get full rerolls.

I NEVER lost so many matches vs the same person. NEVER.

Yeah, i've been secretly avoiding my admech for the time being. My area is not hyper competitive, the only game with admech ive lost was when the dice were against me (legit rolled a 1 on every random shot, every random damage was 1-2 except Dunecrawlers min of 3, and i failed literally every charge i attempted even a 4" one)

I havnt been able to build a casual list with them in 9th. At all. Either the list is so bad i'd probably get tabled turn3, or...its just ridiculous against the people i usually play against lol. They field so much stuff that is unusually durable for its cost, and what isnt unusually durable is a freakin' glass cannon to the max lol
Of course Marines dont care, marines stomp their faces off. Ironically, regular marines are somewhat rare around me lol.

Orks are the opposite, i can throw whatever the gak i want and the list has enough effectiveness where if im not facing a hyper-optimized list...it can work lol.

Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

So from what I've been reading, Bonebreaka and buggies are a good way to play at the moment. Sadly I only have 1 buggie of each but I can at least say they're all Scrapjets without much fuss from my local meta.

What are you guys using as objective holders though? My go to would be grots but the points increase is nasty. Just a min squad of orks?

Also I have the FW big kannon you can put on BW. Mostly for fun but is there ANY use out of it? Stats seem worthless

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

Wait until some tournaments pass. This will be the twist....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ad Mech story here inspired me to think about the equivalent:

18 x smasha gunz
2 x 10 MANz
2 x 10 Boyz
some trukks?
Weirdboy ?
Warboss and some points left to 2k.

Besides seeing such list makes me to invest more in GW shares, this is the very similar scheme.

18 smg still do the devastating damage for long range+ Occupy and screen your backfield.

20 MANz in the middle (Da jump? Trucks?) are pain to kill and do devastating damage with all +1dmg and fight twice strats.

In case you are able to get them to the middle fast and safe. That could be a topic. But load them into the trukks and hide, then da jump those, who jump put of wrecked trukk? Maybe...

The last question is, how to buff them with HQs... in combination with Ghazzy?

Ok ok, there will be less smg, maybe little bit less of MANz and some more other stuff to make the list working, but the idea behind is clear, isn' t it?

Hell yes, take 2x 15 skarboyz to get 2 transports, mob up them T1 to full 30 and Da Jump and 2 units od MANz drive the trukks. That' s a pretty crazy idea

Like this:

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

Orks pulling out okay seems to have been a miss.

But I think a lot of folks were saying Admec, Space marines, Custodes, Harlequins, Eldar were going to be good and this seems to be correct.

Sallies were the bit of the sleeper hit, though. Good god, when you break down their stuff, they are built for 9th.

Death Guard was the bit of the miss so far, as the tournament results have not really supported how highly they were considered.

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

So far tournaments have seen marines(particularly salamander), custodians and death guard be in top 3 steadily. Only surprise so far been ork buggy swarm. Other than that the predictions on videos and blogs have been pretty much spot on...armies that excel in midfield brawl are top.

Again. Only surprise so far was the ork buggy list win and that's not been as consistent top 3 placer as others that predicters. Apart from that only miss is it has been salamanders rather than white scars that have been leading primaris charge. But marine is marine. That is basically just swapping faction in army list. No need to repaint or anything.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

So far tournaments have seen marines(particularly salamander), custodians and death guard be in top 3 steadily. Only surprise so far been ork buggy swarm. Other than that the predictions on videos and blogs have been pretty much spot on...armies that excel in midfield brawl are top.

Again. Only surprise so far was the ork buggy list win and that's not been as consistent top 3 placer as others that predicters. Apart from that only miss is it has been salamanders rather than white scars that have been leading primaris charge. But marine is marine. That is basically just swapping faction in army list. No need to repaint or anything.

I dunno how the buggy list would beat some of these other top lists. How does it fair against those crazy sally lists?

another list out there. not sure what the gigabyte GT is but it was listed on goonhammer as a GT winner




Goff Boyz by Stephen Mitchell

The List

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Orks) [88 PL, 1,875pts] ++

Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Goffs

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Kustom Force Field [4 PL, 80pts]: Grot Oiler

Ghazghkull Thraka [14 PL, 300pts]

Warboss [4 PL, 90pts]: Attack Squig, Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit, Power Klaw, Warlord

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 250pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 29x Choppa, 29x Slugga, 29x Stikkbombs

Boyz [11 PL, 250pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 29x Choppa, 29x Slugga, 29x Stikkbombs

Boyz [11 PL, 242pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 28x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 28x Choppa, 28x Slugga, 28x Stikkbombs

+ Elites +

5 Meganobz [10 PL, 190pts]

5 Meganobz [10 PL, 190pts]

Nob with Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 98pts]: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

Painboy [3 PL, 65pts]: Power Klaw

+ Heavy Support +

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Orks) [4 PL, 125pts, 9CP] ++

Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Goffs

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 75pts, -1CP]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 50pts]

. 10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster

++ Total: [92 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

I seen that list. Curious how he deployed/played it.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
another list out there. not sure what the gigabyte GT is but it was listed on goonhammer as a GT winner

Spoiler:

Goff Boyz by Stephen Mitchell

The List

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Orks) [88 PL, 1,875pts] ++

Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Goffs

+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Kustom Force Field [4 PL, 80pts]: Grot Oiler

Ghazghkull Thraka [14 PL, 300pts]

Warboss [4 PL, 90pts]: Attack Squig, Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit, Power Klaw, Warlord

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 250pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 29x Choppa, 29x Slugga, 29x Stikkbombs

Boyz [11 PL, 250pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 29x Choppa, 29x Slugga, 29x Stikkbombs

Boyz [11 PL, 242pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs

. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga

. 28x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 28x Choppa, 28x Slugga, 28x Stikkbombs

+ Elites +

5 Meganobz [10 PL, 190pts]

5 Meganobz [10 PL, 190pts]

Nob with Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 98pts]: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

Painboy [3 PL, 65pts]: Power Klaw

+ Heavy Support +

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

Mek Gunz [2 PL, 40pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Orks) [4 PL, 125pts, 9CP] ++

Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Goffs

+ HQ +

Weirdboy [3 PL, 75pts, -1CP]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 50pts]

. 10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster

++ Total: [92 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

That big mek must be babysitting either the mek guns or whichever MANz unit doesn't get jumped, otherwise there's no way they're covering anything but the character with the KFF. I'm also interested to see what secondaries they were taking.

I'm getting the vibes more and more that Orks in 9th are just going to be all about redundancy, and just picking a majority toughness level and spamming the hell out of it to overwhelm whichever facet of the opponent's force can deal with it. Hence all these green tide/wagon spam/buggy spam lists we're seeing.

 Afrodactyl wrote:



That big mek must be babysitting either the mek guns or whichever MANz unit doesn't get jumped, otherwise there's no way they're covering anything but the character with the KFF. I'm also interested to see what secondaries they were taking.

I'm getting the vibes more and more that Orks in 9th are just going to be all about redundancy, and just picking a majority toughness level and spamming the hell out of it to overwhelm whichever facet of the opponent's force can deal with it. Hence all these green tide/wagon spam/buggy spam lists we're seeing.

Spam is always the key....

for killing the priests, sounds like the key aspects of this are:

1: draw them off an objective to keep them from getting +1 to invulns
2: kill their boat
3: get 30 boys in combat with them
4: before they finish killing said 30 boys, use Endless Green Tide to jump out of combat and threaten somewhere else.

The other option is whether you can feed them small but durable units to tie them up. I'm guessing they're S3 with power swords? maybe a time for Deffkoptas to shine. Having 3 koptas charge in, using 2 of them to prevent the third from being in combat with enough of his models for him to kill it, might make the difference. You'd lose 70pts of deffkoptas, but that third one should keep kicking and have them tied up. They won't want to pop a fight twice strat for one deffkopta, either.

How many priests are in a unit? I'm not all that familiar with admech.

Bigdoza wrote:
I seen that list. Curious how he deployed/played it.

i don't want to copy the whoel text but it can be found here the explination of how used


https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-faction-focus-orks/

 some bloke wrote:
for killing the priests, sounds like the key aspects of this are:

1: draw them off an objective to keep them from getting +1 to invulns
2: kill their boat
3: get 30 boys in combat with them
4: before they finish killing said 30 boys, use Endless Green Tide to jump out of combat and threaten somewhere else.

The other option is whether you can feed them small but durable units to tie them up. I'm guessing they're S3 with power swords? maybe a time for Deffkoptas to shine. Having 3 koptas charge in, using 2 of them to prevent the third from being in combat with enough of his models for him to kill it, might make the difference. You'd lose 70pts of deffkoptas, but that third one should keep kicking and have them tied up. They won't want to pop a fight twice strat for one deffkopta, either.

How many priests are in a unit? I'm not all that familiar with admech.

The problem is that they sit on objective 90>% of the times and if they kill something in CC they can boost their invu to 2++ with 5+++. they are unmovable. 3x10 priests are a insane when backed by firepower. They dominate the board just by sheer treath and with that goddamn backline shooting anything to bits, the inly thing you can do is sit down and cower

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't you think it's hilarious how the 9th edition meta turns out to be absolutely nothing like all those youtube videos and blogs tried to make us believe?

So far tournaments have seen marines(particularly salamander), custodians and death guard be in top 3 steadily. Only surprise so far been ork buggy swarm. Other than that the predictions on videos and blogs have been pretty much spot on...armies that excel in midfield brawl are top.

Again. Only surprise so far was the ork buggy list win and that's not been as consistent top 3 placer as others that predicters. Apart from that only miss is it has been salamanders rather than white scars that have been leading primaris charge. But marine is marine. That is basically just swapping faction in army list. No need to repaint or anything.

I know I've already asked you this multiple times already, but where are you taking your data from? I'm struggling to find any tournament results at all, but the ones I do find don't match your observations.

Please don't misinterpret this as an attack, I'm genuinely interested in tournament results, but they are damned hard to find right now.

 Tomsug wrote:


Hell yes, take 2x 15 skarboyz to get 2 transports, mob up them T1 to full 30 and Da Jump and 2 units od MANz drive the trukks. That' s a pretty crazy idea

You can't mob up two units of 15 orks, a unit must be 10 or more models and the other one must be 10 or less.

 Blackie wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:


Hell yes, take 2x 15 skarboyz to get 2 transports, mob up them T1 to full 30 and Da Jump and 2 units od MANz drive the trukks. That' s a pretty crazy idea

You can't mob up two units of 15 orks, a unit must be 10 or more models and the other one must be 10 or less.

You’ re right. So 15+10. The idea is the same

Probably Heresy but has anyone ever considered running a list without any regular Boyz in it? Kind of contemplating running as many MANz as possible in Bonebreakers/Battlewagons or with Da Jump as Deathskulls.

 gmaleron wrote:
Probably Heresy but has anyone ever considered running a list without any regular Boyz in it? Kind of contemplating running as many MANz as possible in Bonebreakers/Battlewagons or with Da Jump as Deathskulls.

I think you can only dodge running boyz by fitting a vehicle-heavy list into an outrider detachment. In theory this would work for my army, but currently I'm toying around with by Death Guard, so it might take some time till I get around to playing them.

I got two ork questions:

1. What is the general consensus on the Morkanaught?

My regular ork opponent aleays takes one, with sparkly bits of course. As a tyranid player so much of my worries is about getting it of the table. It just shoots so much, fights like a monster in melee and is very hard to bring down.

2. There is a stratagem that lets you charge again if you killed your opponent on the inpact hits from the charge. I always assumed one vehicle would have inpact hits on the charge. But there is another stratagem to make impact hits. So you need one stratagem to unlock another one? That does not seem right. Can somebody clearify?

 gmaleron wrote:
Probably Heresy but has anyone ever considered running a list without any regular Boyz in it? Kind of contemplating running as many MANz as possible in Bonebreakers/Battlewagons or with Da Jump as Deathskulls.

Considered. But it' s all about CP and detachements. Just Patrol and Batalion cost 0 CP with warlord. So you need either 1 or 3 troops to fill the slots. Burn 3CP for outrider or something seems to be wasting of the points. Minimum Boyz are about 90p.

 Tomsug wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Probably Heresy but has anyone ever considered running a list without any regular Boyz in it? Kind of contemplating running as many MANz as possible in Bonebreakers/Battlewagons or with Da Jump as Deathskulls.

Considered. But it' s all about CP and detachements. Just Patrol and Batalion cost 0 CP with warlord. So you need either 1 or 3 troops to fill the slots. Burn 3CP for outrider or something seems to be wasting of the points. Minimum Boyz are about 90p.

honestly its worth the loss of CP to not take boys, they are pretty useless this edition and get deleted so fast. this is so far super marine edition and they lay down a lot of bolter fire just deleting boys as they go. once you get a boy into combat its (assuming choppa boy) 3 attacks, 2 hits and 1 wound which is saved by armor 66% of the time. each boy has a 33% chance of inflicting one wound on power armor. It takes 6 charging to get down 1 primaris. meanwhile that primaris is 20 points for an intercessor and our boyz are 8 points. so it takes 48 points of our "close combat" troops to take out their beefier better shooting generalist 20 point troop.

 Niiai wrote:
I got two ork questions:

1. What is the general consensus on the Morkanaught?

My regular ork opponent aleays takes one, with sparkly bits of course. As a tyranid player so much of my worries is about getting it of the table. It just shoots so much, fights like a monster in melee and is very hard to bring down.

Well, you pretty much summed it up perfectly. It struggles to hold its own in a meta where people take out multiple knights per turn, but especially against armies who struggle with decent range anti-tank like nids do, it's a beast.

Unless it's a goff naut you best chance is probably to tarpit it with some swarm unit, as it lost the ability to fall back and shoot.

2. There is a stratagem that lets you charge again if you killed your opponent on the inpact hits from the charge. I always assumed one vehicle would have inpact hits on the charge. But there is another stratagem to make impact hits. So you need one stratagem to unlock another one? That does not seem right. Can somebody clearify?

It's pretty much a "whoops" stratagem. If you charge something that does mortal wounds on the charge (scrapjet, KBB, squiggoths or ramming speed stratagem) and kill your target, you would end up without anything to fight. This stratagem allows you to make another charge move right afterwards to get stuck in anyways. It's really not something you would build around.

Are scrapjet, KBB and Squiggots FW only? What is KBB?

So far tying up the motkanaut has not worket. But only one game of 9th so far if he lost that rule. His shooting (BS4 3d6 shots S8 D6 damage is very dangerush! And he finishes of small models in melee with his smash attacks.)

 Niiai wrote:
Are scrapjet, KBB and Squiggots FW only? What is KBB?

So far tying up the motkanaut has not worket. But only one game of 9th so far if he lost that rule. His shooting (BS4 3d6 shots S8 D6 damage is very dangerush! And he finishes of small models in melee with his smash attacks.)

Scrapjet and KBB (Kustom Boosta-Blasta) are GW Prime, Squiggoths are FW.

 gmaleron wrote:
Probably Heresy but has anyone ever considered running a list without any regular Boyz in it? Kind of contemplating running as many MANz as possible in Bonebreakers/Battlewagons or with Da Jump as Deathskulls.

I just saw a Tin ead's youtube video where they used Grots. MANZ, Killa kans, a plane, Deff Dreads, trucks, some tellyport blasta boy etc.

But no Boys, he used Grots instead

They won against death guard