Vineheart01 wrote: looking at the rig statlines....im a bit baffled here
I thought the main draw to the Hunta Rig was it was a little cheaper and had that gimicky harpoon gun. But the kill rig...also...has it?
I dont see any difference other than for 2pl less you lose psyker, character, wurrtower (which is actually a mean 'gun'), and gain 5 more capacity that we dont care about right now. Wat? That feels like a LOT of crap for 2pl
Yeah, I really don't see a reason to run the hunta rig over the kill rig. Being a psyker and the main gun is what makes it good and for 30 points that upgrade is a total steal.
On a side note, did anyone notice how cheap equipment for the regular battelwagon has become? 4 big shootas a lobba and a zzap gun is just 30 points now. Meanwhile, the gunwagon still has to pay 10 points for a lobba that doesn't get any benefit from the periscope
Btw does anyone have an suggestions on a good unit to handle t8/7 from our codex? I am having some issues finding something efficient.
I face alot of dreads (-1dmg treat hurt powerklaws/rockits/... alot). My answer to this is the shock attack gun with custom job and the wazzbomb jet (possible as "boomboys"). the tellyporta guns on this thing are phenomenal. They both have the mek keyword = BS4
how awesome our buggy's are, mine struggle vs the dreads.
Huntarig is overpriced like most of our battlewagon versions. Killrig is likely underpriced. But I’m only buying 1 Killrig and proxyinv my magnetized battlewagon w weirdboy on top as my second Killrig. The Killrig will get nerfed whenever Gw gets around to it.
I am in the middle of re-basing my bikes to 75mm oval bases, but I am unsure what to use for my (converted) Warboss on bike. Is it a 75mm base for it to or should it me bigger?
Vineheart01 wrote: looking at the rig statlines....im a bit baffled here
I thought the main draw to the Hunta Rig was it was a little cheaper and had that gimicky harpoon gun. But the kill rig...also...has it?
I dont see any difference other than for 2pl less you lose psyker, character, wurrtower (which is actually a mean 'gun'), and gain 5 more capacity that we dont care about right now. Wat? That feels like a LOT of crap for 2pl
Yeah, I really don't see a reason to run the hunta rig over the kill rig. Being a psyker and the main gun is what makes it good and for 30 points that upgrade is a total steal.
On a side note, did anyone notice how cheap equipment for the regular battelwagon has become? 4 big shootas a lobba and a zzap gun is just 30 points now. Meanwhile, the gunwagon still has to pay 10 points for a lobba that doesn't get any benefit from the periscope
on the other hand the battlewagons killkannon is +15 points where its 10 for gunwagons. The Zappgun is seemingly free for the gunwagon.
There is still little reason to even bring a gun wagon though when you can bring a kannon wagon for a more damaging main gun that has 3 big shootas for free. you might lose 1toughness, a single big shoota and a lobba but thats probably not why you brought the kannon wagon to begin with. you brought it for backline holding objectives and screening with its 60" gun.
I guess the gun wagon serves as a better up close and personal vehicle that can simply shoot as it has a larger transport capacity and toughness 8 where as the kanno wagon is toughness 7 with like 6 transport capacity. But im still not sure i would ever use a gunwagon. The kannon wagon seem like a decent choice still however.
If you made both vehicles barebone, the kannonwagon cost you 170 points. A gunwagon would then be 165 with the zappgun or the normal kannon. But you dont bring a gun wagon for a normal kannon nor the zap gun which sucks now by not auto hitting, so you would dish out at least 10 points for a kill kannon or preferably 15+ points for da boomer instead.
So already there, by being "bare bone", your kannonwagon costs you less, where the gunwagon serving almost the same function, is more expensive.
Kannon wagon is 170, gunwagon with da boomer is 180 (which shoots less far, and less damage).
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Nora wrote: okay, thanks for reply. I believe that I will use the 75mm oval for this model to then.
The warboss on warbike does not come on an oval base though, its elongated and i believe quite unique.
EDIT: Unless you actually pay for big shootas on the kannon wagon now? I would assume you dont as they are not listed as costing anything in the forge world codex
Kannon wagon is only T7 and FW (not everyone like playing that stuff or has access to the books), that's the reasons.
Gun wagon can be upgraded with Boom boyz, kannon wagon can't, although Ap-2 and damage 3 is better than AP-3 and damage 2 if there is a Speedboss in the list.
Blackie wrote: Kannon wagon is only T7 and FW (not everyone like playing that stuff or has access to the books), that's the reasons.
Gun wagon can be upgraded with Boom boyz, kannon wagon can't, although Ap-2 and damage 3 is better than AP-3 and damage 2 if there is a Speedboss in the list.
i would say only the fact that a supa kannon is from forge world is reason to not run the kannon wagon.
If you want to transport stuff, buy a battle wagon. If you want to kill stuff at distance, buy a kannon wagon. You dont really need toughness 8 anyway when you have 60 inches to work with as range for your main gun.
Agree. The kannonwagon is just better in every way and you could even toss some lootas in there to shoot out of it you really want to.
With the nerf to the periscope and the zagzap essentially having moved over to the kill rig, I see no reason to run a gun wagon. I also don't think "no FW allowed" really is a thing anymore outside of some weird house rules made by some TO.
The only real question is how to convert a kill rig so I don't have to buy that fugly model
Kannonwagon is great mostly thanks the combination of long range, free big shootas and 12” move (gunwagon with periscope just 6”. Thanks to this, Kannonwagon is very good to be parked in the back (the corners especially) and shoot across the board. You can position him super good with his movement and do the scren in the same time. My old codex buggy list have a problem, that buggies are pretty short range and some kinds of list - eldar boats or mass of small chaos knights - simply shoot 30-36 in mass a they can just keep back first two turns and shoot down my buggies before they reach them. Or sister with meltas available to extend their range to 36. Kannonwagon or Wazboom are the answer for this.
Converting of the Kill Rig will be a big topic. I expect a lot of conversions, becuase not everybody likes the dyno style. And extending the BW will be definitely one pretty common way. I gonna do the same. I' ve already bought the right “crew”…. Now I just waiting for oddicially release of the killrig to see the actual size and base size to make mine the same size.
Forceride wrote: I don't think we are going to get rebalanced honestly.
Considering some the things i seen other armies pull off at least. I feel we are well balanced.
Except for some traps here and there. I think we are in a decent place, we just need some clarifications... and Dakka to be able to shoot in advance, that's silly not being able too .
Btw does anyone have an suggestions on a good unit to handle t8/7 from our codex? I am having some issues finding something efficient.
Squighogs. You might not like if you hate Beastsnaggas but Hogs punch way above their weight class. Either with Snakebites for +1 to wound of Goffs for +1str to the rider and +1 to wound (monster hunter strat). The sheer volume of attacks wounding on 4s (or 3s as goffs) will chip anything down that isn't mortation and even then they take a far chunk out of him for like a 3rd of the cost.
If you want to do it at range, Wazbom, KMK, Rokkit/KMB spam, probably less reliable than Hogs but it's doesn't have to reach melee to do it.
You know, I think gw honestly believed they've buffed boy hordes so significantly, they emidiately gave ts a strat to wreck units with 11+ models and all our special missions favoring either hordes of boyz or a mellee warlord slogging alongside them.
koooaei wrote: You know, I think gw honestly believed they've buffed boy hordes so significantly, they emidiately gave ts a strat to wreck units with 11+ models and all our special missions favoring either hordes of boyz or a mellee warlord slogging alongside them.
It wouldn't be the first time GW have been out of touch with their own ruleset. 9th ed has also been very anti-horde in its approach to chaff/big group units (Skitarii being the main outlier here), so clearly they want the meta to focus on elite infantry or MSU.
Forceride wrote: I don't think we are going to get rebalanced honestly.
Considering some the things i seen other armies pull off at least. I feel we are well balanced.
Except for some traps here and there. I think we are in a decent place, we just need some clarifications... and Dakka to be able to shoot in advance, that's silly not being able too .
Btw does anyone have an suggestions on a good unit to handle t8/7 from our codex? I am having some issues finding something efficient.
Squighogs. You might not like if you hate Beastsnaggas but Hogs punch way above their weight class. Either with Snakebites for +1 to wound of Goffs for +1str to the rider and +1 to wound (monster hunter strat). The sheer volume of attacks wounding on 4s (or 3s as goffs) will chip anything down that isn't mortation and even then they take a far chunk out of him for like a 3rd of the cost.
If you want to do it at range, Wazbom, KMK, Rokkit/KMB spam, probably less reliable than Hogs but it's doesn't have to reach melee to do it.
Forceride wrote:
Btw does anyone have an suggestions on a good unit to handle t8/7 from our codex? I am having some issues finding something efficient.
I face alot of dreads (-1dmg treat hurt powerklaws/rockits/... alot). My answer to this is the shock attack gun with custom job and the wazzbomb jet (possible as "boomboys"). the tellyporta guns on this thing are phenomenal. They both have the mek keyword = BS4
how awesome our buggy's are, mine struggle vs the dreads.
Thank you for the advice, i am also leaning to the hogs, not just to handle t7/8 but as a screen for my characters and melee deterrent. I also find the wazboom really interesting but the cost is really high...
I favor snakes, with the shooting in my local shop it always pays to go survival on melee.
I mean today’s preview did mention the new campaign book is coming soon. And it’s called “rising tide” that’s a 50/50 chance at either greentide or beastsnagga army of renown with a name like that.
Regarding squigriders they along with kommandos, killrigs and several buggies are our most point efficient models. However as strong as squigriders are on paper they are just slow enough with the current rules that they are a melee focused unit that will have a hard time making it into combat. All but ruling out a first turn charge. I’m not saying thier bad I like them especially when I’m going heavy on high toughness models but they are going to get shot in the face the first turn.
GW overvalues a lot of things and undervalues the big ones that they shouldnt.
They seem to act like +1Str and +1 to wound are the same thing. Far, far from it...+1 to strength rarely makes a significant difference while +1 to wound usually turns a mediocre unit into an insanely deadly one.
They also seem to think that higher damage attacks are more powerful than higher volume of shots, as a lot of units that fire a gakton of shots feel unusually cheap compared to the few big shot units.
You know. it kind of angers me how they treated the whole "lets replace the dakka dakka rule" thing. First of all, not all units even received more shots to make up for it like flash gitz, they were just left out in the dirt. Or Mek Gunz. while Mek Gunz are still great in singles without units, they still, like flash gitz, lost damage value by the loss of dakka dakka rule, and not receiving extra shots like rokkits and KMBs did.
Second of all and probably my biggest annoyance is Lootas.
They generally had 2 shots each before but you could always reroll the D3, now they have 2 shots normally and 3 within half range.
While its neat that Lootas are mobile, they are probably the only unit in the ork rooster who uses a dakka weapon, that does NOT increase their amount of shots from what they had before. Shootas, 2/3, big shootas, 3/5, Ghazzy boy, 12/16 i believe. But Deffguns from lootas? 2/3..
So not only are you being nerfed by forcing you to take spanners, they also dont receive more shots to make up for loss of dakka dakka. Maybe their mobility makes up for it, i dont know, i can certainly see options for mobile shooting platforms, but in terms of raw damage they have been hard nerfed id say. possibly the infantry type in our codex that lorewise is meant to shoot the most shots, dont.. shoot the most shots.
A question about embarked lootas with Smoky gubbinz though. If you remain stationary, does that mean your vehicle get light cover?
actually i prefer the loota change. Lootas NEED to be in a vehicle, they die to literally anything otherwise and you cant strat them in a vehicle (including the reroll) so it was very likely if theyre parked in a trukk to roll a 1 and just be eff'd for effectiveness. Its really easy to get within 24" with a trukk and the ability to move freely, so max shots is pretty simple to get.
The spanna thing does piss me off though. Theyre not even cheaper, like the base Loota is 10pts but the deffgun is 7 or something, so theyre a 17pt bigshoota boy that can repair 1 hull point (but not while embarked for some fething reason, another mechanic GW overvalues and intentionally gimps as a result). Spannas have no reason to exist, they just do because the kit has one so we MUST use it. I'd be fine with that if they werent grossly overpriced...
I dont want to give them a rokkit or kmb because thats a 27pt BOY model at that point, but i feel super cheated paying 17pts for a bigshoota too. On that note it feels like they made most (not all) bigshootas free but kept the cost they normally would be built into the model AND swapping it out costs 10pts still. Its weird, i feel like exchanging any bigshoota is overpriced now while before it was a nobrainer.
Yeah, Lootas are oddly benefit a fair bit from the dakka change, though I think they should be Dakka 4/3 for their current price point. Ditto on the spanner bit though, at the very least they could have made one of the mek jobs more interesting (really? light cover AND you need to stay still to get it? Should have just given them a -1 to hit and not have the requirement to stay still). Frankly, just making it so that the unit gets 1 more attack with their shooting weapons so long as there is a spanner in their unit at least compensates for the loss of the deffgun (assuming it stays Dakka 3/2). It would also make for one hell of a toasty burna unit.
Dont get me wrong the change from heavy to dakka guns is great because they are now mobile, but it still sucks that they didnt receive anymore shots than what they had before.
They should be, as Grimskul said, 3/4 if not 4/5.
The reason i say 4/5 is because flash Gitz should never have only had 3 shots each, because that means they too, got absolutely nothing out of the loss of dakka dakka rule. They were just flat out nerfed damage wise. being 5 points cheaper dont make that difference okay because they were over priced before, they still are now.
Kebabcito wrote: Killrig with Frazzle and Spirit of Gork rushing mid with 10 snaggas inside. So when he explodes you have ObSec.
Spamming Killrigs and 18 Squighogs is, for me, World Eater mentallity (100-0 against noobs and 0-6 in every tournament).
While this edition isn’t friendly to big overcosted vehicles… the Killrig is extremely aggressively costed and has a ton of strong interactions. Frazzle as you said is just a massive footprint… it’s like the only ork unit (and burnas)I would ever use overwatch strat on with its main gun auto hitting and it’s other weapons rerolling vs monsters and vehicles.. its a character model that you can give fists of gork to that makes it str 9/10 with 12 atks plus 4x atks str5 is insane (higher if you roll an 11+ on fists of gork). It’s an opentop transport at t8 3+ 6++ with 16 wounds and +1 to hit monster and vehicles.. but most importantly this unit interacts well in a buggy list by taking away a lot of the focus off the buggies as this vehicle becomes priority #1 for your opponents anti tank.
This unit I am almost positive will be in most competitive lists. I also agree there is a saturation limit on this model and I wouldnt go above 2 and I think squigriders while competitively priced has counters to them as well discouraging players from over playing them. But I do see squigriders as a good screen for your beastboss on squig to provide some character protection.
technically yes but due to the base being so much bigger than the model the scrapjets wouldnt perfectly hide anything.
Pretty difficult for any of our vehicles to hide models these days.
?? if its out in september i would assume it was out in september. Dont think pre order is september and then out oktober. I think its just out in september.
Beardedragon wrote: ?? if its out in september i would assume it was out in september. Dont think pre order is september and then out oktober. I think its just out in september.
GW considers the pre-order date as their release date, which caused quite a few members on this board to completely lose their gak when the buggy "orktober" actually fell into the first weekend of November.
So there is a possibility, but not a guarantee that this will happen again.
Beardedragon wrote: ?? if its out in september i would assume it was out in september. Dont think pre order is september and then out oktober. I think its just out in september.
The article says pre-order in September, based on their past ork nonsense, that means out in october (Orktober).
Dont get me wrong the change from heavy to dakka guns is great because they are now mobile, but it still sucks that they didnt receive anymore shots than what they had before.
They should be, as Grimskul said, 3/4 if not 4/5.
The reason i say 4/5 is because flash Gitz should never have only had 3 shots each, because that means they too, got absolutely nothing out of the loss of dakka dakka rule. They were just flat out nerfed damage wise. being 5 points cheaper dont make that difference okay because they were over priced before, they still are now.
Flash Gitz should have 4 shots standard now.
Yep. I've been saying this since the codex rules started dropping. The loss of DDD seemed like a nerf, than when all the rules were leaked I flat out said it was a nerf for the most part. Lootas were Over priced before, lost 1/5th of their actual shooting (Big shoota isn't as good in any way) and gained basically nothing in return besides being able to move and shoot.
You place a skrapjet.
You place lootas behind a skrapjet.
You try to look from the point of view how tall and how close should his model be to see lootas behind a skrapjet.
Than try the same thing with overlaying rows of skrapjets - one closer to the enemy, one further to address the space between the edge of the model and it's base.
If the skrapjet will protect lootas from ground infantry and dreadnaughts that are at least 18 away, you can forrgo spending points on trukks and simply buy more skrapjet and lootas.
You place a skrapjet. You place lootas behind a skrapjet. You try to look from the point of view how tall and how close should his model be to see lootas behind a skrapjet. Than try the same thing with overlaying rows of skrapjets - one closer to the enemy, one further to address the space between the edge of the model and it's base.
If the skrapjet will protect lootas from ground infantry and dreadnaughts that are at least 18 away, you can forrgo spending points on trukks and simply buy more skrapjet and lootas.
eeh.. scrapjets arent really that tall. no matter what at least some part of your loota will be visible. the only two units we really have that can reliably hide other units are gork/morkanauts and stompas because they are solid. there is no way you will ever be able to hide your infantry models behind buggies.
At least not as far as im aware. do understand the enemy just need to see half a milimeter of your model or his base to shoot him. its not difficult.
So, i finally managed to check all the difference between the 8th and 9th codex. It was kind of eye opening realize how MUCH they changed in the codex. A lot of things feels uncalled for and most of buffs and nerfs feels pretty focused on good old units and good new units. Also poor Boyz.
I might do the same for relics and WL. Stratagems feel uncalled for. I'm on mobile in vacation so it might not be the coolest excel you ever seen, but it should be foolproof .
Enjoy:
Yup and the new Combat Patrol box is DOA, at least for me. I don't know who they are marketing to, but the vast majority of ork players do not need more boyz. The new Megaboss is worse in every imaginable way to the new Squigbosses so thats kinda dumb on its own. The only good thing I think is the Koptas...But I already have about 12 at most I might grab some off Ebay to give my models a bit more difference on the table.
SemperMortis wrote: Yup and the new Combat Patrol box is DOA, at least for me. I don't know who they are marketing to, but the vast majority of ork players do not need more boyz. The new Megaboss is worse in every imaginable way to the new Squigbosses so thats kinda dumb on its own. The only good thing I think is the Koptas...But I already have about 12 at most I might grab some off Ebay to give my models a bit more difference on the table.
I'd say its one of the few better Combat Patrols tbh. The majority of the kits in there are new sculpts, and they're all feasibly useful. I'd say for Ork vets, its really there for bits/variety for units, so it's definitely geared towards new Ork players, but it's definitely a lot better than the old Start Collecting in terms of the units being included since it looks a lot more cohesive this time around.
Emicrania wrote: So, i finally managed to check all the difference between the 8th and 9th codex. It was kind of eye opening realize how MUCH they changed in the codex. A lot of things feels uncalled for and most of buffs and nerfs feels pretty focused on good old units and good new units. Also poor Boyz.
I might do the same for relics and WL. Stratagems feel uncalled for. I'm on mobile in vacation so it might not be the coolest excel you ever seen, but it should be foolproof .
Enjoy:
SemperMortis wrote: Yup and the new Combat Patrol box is DOA, at least for me. I don't know who they are marketing to, but the vast majority of ork players do not need more boyz. The new Megaboss is worse in every imaginable way to the new Squigbosses so thats kinda dumb on its own. The only good thing I think is the Koptas...But I already have about 12 at most I might grab some off Ebay to give my models a bit more difference on the table.
It isn't too bad a purchase for me. I happen to need 3 koptas, and I'll likely convert the megaboss to be a big old kommander for a kill tank. The deff dread will pad my bits box with heavy weapons and mechanical gubbins.
I'll probably actually still use the boys to try and phase out some of the old Black Reach ones I have knocking about.
It’s not a bad patrol box but it’s way down the list of this massive release… after picking up the snagga box and killteam box I’m mostly done til Christmas.. I’ll pick up a Killrig, besstboss on squig, another box of squigriders and the gargant head bunker as xmas presents. But my build and paint backlog is going to take a while.
An odd corner case from me, here... I'm a big fan of kunning shenanigans, like having Boys in reserves to pop out and do things later. Keeps 'em safe from firepower and can be a rude surprised.
Unfortunately, with the new points costs and new Power Levels, they went from 4 for a min squad to 5... previously I could stick 2 into reserve with a single CP, now, that kicks it to 2.
So I need a 4 PL unit to go in there with them. The leading candidate just now is Burna Boys, but Tankbustas, Lootas, a boosta0Blasta, or even a Mek Gun (Surprise!) could do the job.
Kinda torn between Tankies and Burnas. Being able to just step out and lob 5 (6 with pistols) Rokkits at a tnk (on a 5+ mind) is nice, while the Burnas will *clear* an objective from just about anything that ain't Marine.
So, you can put ghaz in a wagon. He cN disembark t1 which will add you... What's his base size? I think it's 120 mm which is ~4.72".
4,72 + 7+d6 ends up as relatively reachable even on a 24" Scale. And reliable in missions with 18" Between dz.
Wakshaani wrote: An odd corner case from me, here... I'm a big fan of kunning shenanigans, like having Boys in reserves to pop out and do things later. Keeps 'em safe from firepower and can be a rude surprised.
Unfortunately, with the new points costs and new Power Levels, they went from 4 for a min squad to 5... previously I could stick 2 into reserve with a single CP, now, that kicks it to 2.
So I need a 4 PL unit to go in there with them. The leading candidate just now is Burna Boys, but Tankbustas, Lootas, a boosta0Blasta, or even a Mek Gun (Surprise!) could do the job.
Kinda torn between Tankies and Burnas. Being able to just step out and lob 5 (6 with pistols) Rokkits at a tnk (on a 5+ mind) is nice, while the Burnas will *clear* an objective from just about anything that ain't Marine.
Not sure.
Thoughts?
If your goal is to have infantry in reserve to be useful later game, I'd suggest Kommandos, Stormboys or MANz first and foremost.
Kommandos are tanky in cover and are great for their points for holding objectives in cover.
Stormboys are fast and can put themselves in reserves without spending CP.
MANz are tough and good in CC, so you want to keep them out of harm's way until the big guns are tied up and can't insta delete them.
Burnas could be good for coming in to surprise enemy units in your own backfield.
Personally I would want shooting units on the board early to try to get the most out of them. You could argue for tankbustas in reserve until later in the game, but I would want them on the board T2 at the latest.
Beardedragon wrote: ?? if its out in september i would assume it was out in september. Dont think pre order is september and then out oktober. I think its just out in september.
GW considers the pre-order date as their release date, which caused quite a few members on this board to completely lose their gak when the buggy "orktober" actually fell into the first weekend of November.
So there is a possibility, but not a guarantee that this will happen again.
With the codex roadmap gap in October (plus BT looking to initially be a single-box release like Beast Snaggas) I'll be surprised if Orks don't see a similar pattern to Sisters releases with waves in Sept / Oct / Nov. GW tend to put most 40k releases early in the month so I expect the Ork codex will be next after the upcoming AOS battletomes, it's just a question of what comes with it and what has to wait.
SemperMortis wrote: Yup and the new Combat Patrol box is DOA, at least for me. I don't know who they are marketing to, but the vast majority of ork players do not need more boyz. The new Megaboss is worse in every imaginable way to the new Squigbosses so thats kinda dumb on its own. The only good thing I think is the Koptas...But I already have about 12 at most I might grab some off Ebay to give my models a bit more difference on the table.
I'd say its one of the few better Combat Patrols tbh. The majority of the kits in there are new sculpts, and they're all feasibly useful. I'd say for Ork vets, its really there for bits/variety for units, so it's definitely geared towards new Ork players, but it's definitely a lot better than the old Start Collecting in terms of the units being included since it looks a lot more cohesive this time around.
Yeah this box is a big factor behind me starting Orks this month. It's rare to see a discount on mostly brand new stuff, especially when I'd use all of it. Ask any Tyranid player about how often they cram the 15+ year old genestealers into a boxed set
Beardedragon wrote: ?? if its out in september i would assume it was out in september. Dont think pre order is september and then out oktober. I think its just out in september.
Ouh you naive jounge blood…. I bet 10 original pilsen beer
Wakshaani wrote: An odd corner case from me, here... I'm a big fan of kunning shenanigans, like having Boys in reserves to pop out and do things later. Keeps 'em safe from firepower and can be a rude surprised.
Unfortunately, with the new points costs and new Power Levels, they went from 4 for a min squad to 5... previously I could stick 2 into reserve with a single CP, now, that kicks it to 2.
So I need a 4 PL unit to go in there with them. The leading candidate just now is Burna Boys, but Tankbustas, Lootas, a boosta0Blasta, or even a Mek Gun (Surprise!) could do the job.
Kinda torn between Tankies and Burnas. Being able to just step out and lob 5 (6 with pistols) Rokkits at a tnk (on a 5+ mind) is nice, while the Burnas will *clear* an objective from just about anything that ain't Marine.
Not sure.
Thoughts?
If your goal is to have infantry in reserve to be useful later game, I'd suggest Kommandos, Stormboys or MANz first and foremost.
Kommandos are tanky in cover and are great for their points for holding objectives in cover.
Stormboys are fast and can put themselves in reserves without spending CP.
MANz are tough and good in CC, so you want to keep them out of harm's way until the big guns are tied up and can't insta delete them.
Burnas could be good for coming in to surprise enemy units in your own backfield.
Personally I would want shooting units on the board early to try to get the most out of them. You could argue for tankbustas in reserve until later in the game, but I would want them on the board T2 at the latest.
Well, Troops are required, and having a set of sluggaboys in reserve to pop out later and defend objectives, or come out later and do teleporter stuff, is handy. Previously I could do it to a pair of Troops, but now I can't, but I might as well put *something* else in reserve with the one unit, so I was looking for something 4 PL to buddy-up with them.
Already have Kommandos and Stormboys for the usual work, this is just trying to figure out one small thing to store alongside the lads.
I would like to say, that this way of releasing of the codex is super stupid. What shall Jidmah do now? Hold 2 threads in the same time? De facto you can' t run new orks on tournaments now. So shall we play official tournaments with the torrent rule books or looking on the new stuff and play with the old one?….
Tomsug wrote: I would like to say, that this way of releasing of the codex is super stupid. What shall Jidmah do now? Hold 2 threads in the same time? De facto you can' t run new orks on tournaments now. So shall we play official tournaments with the torrent rule books or looking on the new stuff and play with the old one?….
… i dont' t expect the answer…
I will be starting a new thread soon. I planned to create the thread over the weekend, but I am rather busy, and creating those damn rainbow lists takes a long time
As for "can't play at tournament", multiple tournaments will be allowing the new codex (some already have), so I fully expect a complete mess on statistics pages
Vineheart01 wrote: problem with starting a new thread now is like what 15 things are going to have an asterisk for a footnote saying "Pending faq/eratta..."
Also doesn't help that we don't have a sizable chunk of the beast snagga stuff and things like the boss'ead fortification being readily available to highlight their competitive effectiveness.
Vineheart01 wrote: problem with starting a new thread now is like what 15 things are going to have an asterisk for a footnote saying "Pending faq/eratta..."
I'll probably just add a list to the thread. It's possible that GW won't address these issues until after the actual release, and I don't really want to wait that long.
……multiple tournaments will be allowing the new codex (some already have), so I fully expect a complete mess on statistics pages
Yeah, Goonhammer guys gonna see red I guess. And not only them. Imagine the other players playing every week againts different ork codex. For next 2 months?
What will be also interesting is “count as” or “conversions” issue. Because some new units are obviously far from “awailable on the market” so people need to proxy it somehow. Well… how can you proxy on competitive level fair, if you don' t know the true dimensions or even base size of the new models?
I suspect it will be similar to how heavy intercessors have been handled - which means that most top tier events will simply ask you to wait for the actual models.
That said, these threads aren't just about organized event gaming. From what I gather most people have moved to the new codex since the BS update is available.
Anyone else notice that the kill rig doesn't have the waaaaggghhh energy rule?
i can't believe i only just noticed it lol
it has it's own special psyker rule that means it doesn't require 20+ models to be around it to cast 2 powers unlike the wirdboy/wurrboy that have the waaagh rule and need 20 bodies around them.
koooaei wrote: Megaboas can be very tanky with -1 to wound wt and kybork body.
And can't you give both of those to a squigboss as well to make him even more tanky?
beast boss on foot with -half chewed 4+++ , cyborg body 4++ half damage- is another option.
if you get into combat vs character or monster there is alot of damage mitigation there.
or
bad moons "da best armour teef can buy" with "da krushin armour" for a +2 modifier to your normal armour save cancelling out ap-2 weapons
I don't think the Beastboss on squigosaur can have cybork body since it's infantry only from what I've seen in leaks. You could make a pretty darn tanky megaboss with either cybork body or the relic mega armor and either the bad moon trait or the hard has nail trait. Though this one you already noticed. We got a lot of options to make pretty impressive warboss that an kick some serious ass.
I got a bit more serious question for those who so happen to actually have a copy of the codex in hand. Could we possibly use the Runtherds to boost the already "not so bad" killa kanz?
epronovost wrote: Could we possibly use the Runtherds to boost the already "not so bad" killa kanz?
Unfortunately not, the Runtherd is keyed to <INFANTRY> only.
The only useful mitigations I could find for grot morale were to either use the Insane Bravery strat, and Makari could also help smaller units of Goff mek gunz by making them Ld6.
epronovost wrote: Could we possibly use the Runtherds to boost the already "not so bad" killa kanz?
Unfortunately not, the Runtherd is keyed to <INFANTRY> only.
The only useful mitigations I could find for grot morale were to either use the Insane Bravery strat, and Makari could also help smaller units of Goff mek gunz by making them Ld6.
I was more thinking about the bonus to attack derived from the whip more than the bravery, but it would have been nice to have the runtherd have some sort of leadership bubble for grots, but alas, maybe next time.
epronovost wrote: Could we possibly use the Runtherds to boost the already "not so bad" killa kanz?
Unfortunately not, the Runtherd is keyed to <INFANTRY> only.
The only useful mitigations I could find for grot morale were to either use the Insane Bravery strat, and Makari could also help smaller units of Goff mek gunz by making them Ld6.
I was more thinking about the bonus to attack derived from the whip more than the bravery, but it would have been nice to have the runtherd have some sort of leadership bubble for grots, but alas, maybe next time.
For what its worth, a Nob with Waaagh banner can give Kanz +1 to hit in melee as he's not restricted to <CORE>
epronovost wrote: Could we possibly use the Runtherds to boost the already "not so bad" killa kanz?
Unfortunately not, the Runtherd is keyed to <INFANTRY> only.
The only useful mitigations I could find for grot morale were to either use the Insane Bravery strat, and Makari could also help smaller units of Goff mek gunz by making them Ld6.
I was more thinking about the bonus to attack derived from the whip more than the bravery, but it would have been nice to have the runtherd have some sort of leadership bubble for grots, but alas, maybe next time.
For what its worth, a Nob with Waaagh banner can give Kanz +1 to hit in melee as he's not restricted to <CORE>
MEK BOSS BUZZGOB can give +1 to hit to both melee and shooting on kans, but they have to be goffs
Had a recent game trying out the squighog boyz (I luckily have good fill-in proxies with my AoS Gore-Gruntas since they use the same base and seem to have roughly the same size proportions). Do you guys run them as Snakebitez or Goffs? I used Goffs since it seemed like the +1 to wound wouldn't be as relevant since with only 10" they aren't always guaranteed to get the charge. Also, I was against SoB this game so it seemed overkill when the majority of their units are T3 or 5 at best.
On a different note, I tried out Pyromaniac subkultur Burna Boyz and I was pleasantly surprised at how effective they are now with the 12" range and the flat 3 baseline shots. Having an effective 24-30" threat range is really nice and even if there's a bit of dead weight from the mandatory spanners, they did work in my game. They even took off Morvhenn Vahl's last 4 wounds and kicked her off an objective. So I can see why one of the tourney guys took them.
Grimskul wrote: Had a recent game trying out the squighog boyz (I luckily have good fill-in proxies with my AoS Gore-Gruntas since they use the same base and seem to have roughly the same size proportions). Do you guys run them as Snakebitez or Goffs? I used Goffs since it seemed like the +1 to wound wouldn't be as relevant since with only 10" they aren't always guaranteed to get the charge. Also, I was against SoB this game so it seemed overkill when the majority of their units are T3 or 5 at best.
On a different note, I tried out Pyromaniac subkultur Burna Boyz and I was pleasantly surprised at how effective they are now with the 12" range and the flat 3 baseline shots. Having an effective 24-30" threat range is really nice and even if there's a bit of dead weight from the mandatory spanners, they did work in my game. They even took off Morvhenn Vahl's last 4 wounds and kicked her off an objective. So I can see why one of the tourney guys took them.
Maybe a small barrel or at least more info on how the units and the codex on the whole performed.
Grimskul wrote: Had a recent game trying out the squighog boyz (I luckily have good fill-in proxies with my AoS Gore-Gruntas since they use the same base and seem to have roughly the same size proportions). Do you guys run them as Snakebitez or Goffs? I used Goffs since it seemed like the +1 to wound wouldn't be as relevant since with only 10" they aren't always guaranteed to get the charge. Also, I was against SoB this game so it seemed overkill when the majority of their units are T3 or 5 at best.
Aren't squig riders the same size as warbikes? Their bases I mean. I'm using nob bikers to proxy them, as Goffs.
On a different note, I tried out Pyromaniac subkultur Burna Boyz and I was pleasantly surprised at how effective they are now with the 12" range and the flat 3 baseline shots. Having an effective 24-30" threat range is really nice and even if there's a bit of dead weight from the mandatory spanners, they did work in my game. They even took off Morvhenn Vahl's last 4 wounds and kicked her off an objective. So I can see why one of the tourney guys took them.
Don't forget that they can also fight with AP-2 in combat thanks to the appropriate stratagem. I'm even tempted to upgrade mine by paying for the kustom job, to deal MWs on 6s; it's 18-20 points on the squad of 9-10 trukk burnaboyz I'm playing, I should find the points.
Grimskul wrote: Had a recent game trying out the squighog boyz (I luckily have good fill-in proxies with my AoS Gore-Gruntas since they use the same base and seem to have roughly the same size proportions). Do you guys run them as Snakebitez or Goffs? I used Goffs since it seemed like the +1 to wound wouldn't be as relevant since with only 10" they aren't always guaranteed to get the charge. Also, I was against SoB this game so it seemed overkill when the majority of their units are T3 or 5 at best.
Aren't squig riders the same size as warbikes? Their bases I mean. I'm using nob bikers to proxy them, as Goffs.
They are. The nob on smasha squig has a slightly larger base.
So when it comes to the new squig rider guys and the nob, do you need to double down on them to make them work or do they synergize well with buggies and warbikers? Like many folks I have 3 squig riders and a single squig nob, and am not really wanting to buy a ton of them. They seem like they should fit in well what with their profile being fairly similar to other speed freat units and not costing a whole lot.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So when it comes to the new squig rider guys and the nob, do you need to double down on them to make them work or do they synergize well with buggies and warbikers? Like many folks I have 3 squig riders and a single squig nob, and am not really wanting to buy a ton of them. They seem like they should fit in well what with their profile being fairly similar to other speed freat units and not costing a whole lot.
You should probably still get a beastboss on squigosaur so you can run a dedicated goff/snakebite patrol detachment for them, but outside of that there is no real reason to not just run them alongside warbikes and buggies. Personally, I have bought two boxes so I can either field two units or one unit of five. And don't worry, the second codex is in a fellow broke ork player's hands
Keep in mind that when you present your opponent with the choice between killing warbikes or squigriders, it's not a difficult decision for them at all. Hogs do more damage and die easier, so killing them first is always the right thing to do.
koooaei wrote: Goff squigosaur with killchoppa and bbk trait the killiest hq that we've got. Can also be quite problematic to understand how all the rules interact.
Reading that thread I honestly have no idea what conclusion people came to.
I'll just be a good little grot and keep my head down until an FAQ comes out
Battalion- klan: Goff
Beastboss on squig- warlord trait:Brutal but kunnin, relic1:headwompa
Mega armored big Mek- relic2: dead shiny shoota -1cp
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig
10x boys (nob w/bc)- trukk boys specialist
3x squigriders
3x squigriders
Killrig- frazzle, spirit of gork
Killrig- frazzle, squiggly curse
Dedicated transport: trukk
Outrider-deathskulls -3cp
Warboss on bike- relic3:killaklaw, bigboss trait:Ard as nails, -2cp
(or junk boss warlord trait if he doesn’t get the warboss 5++ invul)
Badrukk is a very expensive model for a reroll 1s aura and a heavy weapon version of a plasma gun. At least he's pretty tanky now. He doesn't even hit on 3s. You'd think he'd have scrounged up a gitfinda squig by now like the other kaptains.
The kill rigs are monsters, the psykic powers are very good. Big targets that soak up alot of damage. and dish out alot of damage, my opponant gasped as he asked how many melee attacks does this thing have and i answered 14
The squig riders are very good and performed well.
the warbikers were very annoying tau havving to hit on 5's wound on 4-5 alot of the time- although they didn't do much damage they sat on objectives well.
The warbosses on squigosaurs did badly, but thats mostly my fault, they got crisis suit bombed.
The snagga boys did their job which was to sit on the objectives
the kommandos were even better allowed me to deploy onto of objectives and just do octarious data turn 1
Tide of Muscle was a good stratagem this game negating the -2 charge modifiers the tau brought with him ( i some drone or something i don't remember what it was)
the Burner boys in a trukk did ok made themselves a nuisance, i used the cuttin flames strat once but it didn't do a huge a amount
Deff dread drop via teleporter took out some 2xsniper drone units/ 2xfire warrior squads/ and a cadre firblade
was an interesting game very close - the ramshackle and snakebite (1-3 wound rolls auto fail) abilities were not very active, i was either attacked by S8+ weapons or S5 or below weapons not many s6/7 weapons in the tau roster (or any roster)
my opponant brought DX-6 REMORA STEALTH DRONES which i had no answer to ..... they are drones and aircraft so no vehicle keyword, but lots of negative hit modifiers, total nightmare.
After more than a year I was on the tournament on Sunday and was 5th with two wins and one crazy short los. My old codex list first time on the real table (and maybe the last time I guess) It was great to play IRL instead of TTS and it was great to feel the list works.
Few experiences that are valid for playing W40k 9.1 in general:
1. Playing the TTS with people around the world really push you forward.
2. There is general rule to make succesful list. Have a strong mobile dakka and something big, hard and annoying with defend layers you push him in his face T1. Make them fighting in their part of the table and it saves your buggies and make them space to shoot.
All kinds of the list with mortarion are this type. So I did the same…
3. Layers of defence - anything we can put on the table and push in opponents face dies in one turn.
You need models in transport that jump out after model is destroied. As late as possible. The best is, the model is destroied in CC so opponent has not so many option how to kill the crew.
BW with Forktress works like that. Block opponents movement, soak the fire and than you use Emergency disembark and jump out 6” and take the objective.
I have 10 grots and 4 MANz in the wagon and it was great. This hold the opponent for a turn at least and scored a lot of points (take the primary, ready for Enagage etc. )
Killrig will be great for this.
Trukboyz will be stupid for this, because trukboyz jump out too early.
4. If you have 10 grots to soak the damage from emergency disembark and protect 4 MANz, you can roll 10x 1 or 2 from 14 rolls. This can crash your game if happen in the most sensitive moment and can cost you 3 MANs, Warboss on bike and safe your opponent 2 necron ships…
5. ZagZap was great. ZagZap is dead. Hail to the Killrig mortal wounds!
As more and more time goes by I am seeing people slowly waking up to the realization that GW drastically over-estimated T5 on a 1W 6+ model and drastically under-estimated the reduction in durability across the board with the removal of Morale mechanics and KFF.
I had a friend disagree with me about Morale when the book first came out. After Saturday's games he called me and said "yea, you were right, Mobz are dead". Apparently he ran his old 4x30 list and it got tabled turn 3.
For a long time people never worried about morale and especially ork players it was something not to think about. So it’s hard for people to see how bad it is when they removed almost every way we were able to mitigate morale issues..
Even if they removed mob rule but left breakin eads morale would have been mostly irrelevant. But they took away everything except some minor stuff like ignoring half strength… in the end you still lose a lot of points during the morale phase and it basically changes list building to the point you are building lists with morale in mind by making most units into min size squads.
I'm not even sure it's worth taking painboy for the boys any more as most damage that I face is 2+ with just a bunch of bolter or asscannon shots here and there. And if there are lots of bolter shots, it's something like admech with buckets so deep you can forego rolling 6+++ unless you want to purposefully make everything take longer for a 2d turn dicedown in a tourney. But it's low.
gungo wrote: For a long time people never worried about morale and especially ork players it was something not to think about. So it’s hard for people to see how bad it is when they removed almost every way we were able to mitigate morale issues..
Even if they removed mob rule but left breakin eads morale would have been mostly irrelevant. But they took away everything except some minor stuff like ignoring half strength… in the end you still lose a lot of points during the morale phase and it basically changes list building to the point you are building lists with morale in mind by making most units into min size squads.
I agree, going from basically ignoring morale to it being absolutely crippling and almost unavoidable is quite the shake up that we didn't need.
I would love to see mob rule change to 'Whilst this unit is within 6" of a friendly Clan Mob unit that is not under half strength, this unit is treated as being at over half strength. Also this unit adds +1 to its LD score if the same friendly Clan Mob unit consists of 15 or more models, or +2 if it contains 25 or more models".
So boys would be LD 7 or 8 in a lot of circumstances and would be a lot less vulnerable to morale and combat attrition. It's not nearly as good as "LD = number of models", but isn't complete garbage and actually gives an incentive to run blocks of boys as they will be the only unit capable of giving the +2.
kingbbobb wrote: just played a friendly game against a tau player
Friendly squighigs and squigosaurs
Anyways, how did the squig-cav perform?
heh heh heh a few beers were had, i struggled to write out my post, i am dyslexic at the best of times- alcohol makes it worse.
squig cav were very good at riding down tau infantry, the fact each model has 6 attacks is a bit OP but so what everything else in the codex is sub par so i will take it, in all honesty i was wiping squads of firewarriors with the stika melee weapon alone, i never even got to roll for squighog jaws.
The T6 and 4+ save stood up quite well against fire warrior S5 0AP weapons.
Have my first game with the new codex tonight, orks versus orks! Thinking of doing double detachment with a battalion of Goffs with Boyz and MANZ etc then a second detachment of either freebootas or deathskulls with all my bikes and buggies in.
I've just painted up a squad of warbikers and have a another 3 on the way for a decent sized unit of 6. Warbikers seem really quite good now with alot of firepower and toughness combined with a low points cost seems like a winner to me.
I haven't even played a game yet and I've already given up on the old green tide!
What are everyone's thoughts on shokkjumpdragstas? I've got 3 of them painted up which I was using in deathskulls detachment previously to jump around getting engage in all fronts and doing decent damage with the re rolls. Now they seem much much worse than before with less damage output and unreliable jumping which was guaranteed before with the kustom job.
I will run them tonight and see how they do as evil suns before passing judgement, might be useful as a harassing unit on the flanks picking off isolated units and scoring engage etc
koooaei wrote: There are 2 more orks finishing 1 and 3 in a large tourney. Any info on them?
i might have info on the winning list as hes in my local gaming group.
There was a GT in Denmark a few days ago where he won, its probably that tournement you mean. I have the list in a messenger chat but copying is a bit difficult. i can try.
Winner should be someone called Mathias right? This was his list.
But why a wartrike warlord? He doesn't have a lot of vehicles to buff their shooting. Wouldn't a squigboss or at least a fw bikerboss be a better candidate for regular waaagh?
Scactha wrote: Probably Rezmekka's Paint - it´s a melee army after all.
But you can still take it and just have your bikerboss as a warlord...
to be fair your warboss on warbike should also be a speed boss. Im fairly confident he will keep the speedboss keyword and lose warboss. I talked to him about why he had da jump on a psyker that only had 1 infantry core model he could da jump in his evil sunz klan. Given that its Klan Locked now.
He said he only got off 3 powers during his entire tournement and those were Fist of gork.
I kind of get the feeling he forgot that da jump was klan locked, because if one would remember that, the weirdboy shouldnt be in that klan with such few core. Alternatively to putting him in another detatchment he could have taken something else but da jump.
Da Jump made no sense on his weirdboy in that evil sunz detatchment.
Furthermore, i asked him why he took the killchoppa on the warboss on warbike rather than da killa klaw, and he wanted the mortal wounds he said. Im unsure if i agree with that statement. even with brutal but kunning each wound roll of 6 would only grant 1 extra MW, where as going da killa klaw would give him flat 3 damage over the normal kill choppas 2. I would deem da killa klaw surperior if you happen to rock a powerklaw. Kill choppa could be thrown on maybe a nob on smasha squig instead
Or maybe he forgot he couldnt heal without ghazzy.
Im generally just surprised that he won as his skills were never what i would determine as "winning a GT" level.
I have not fought him before, but ive seen him play. Im not directly impressed. In fact im fairly confident my best ork list would beat his best ork list in previous edition and that my own skills were equal to or better than his, and i have only played warhammer 40k for a year now with around 60 or 70 games so far.
I know of it. It sucks people would do that though. Dunno if he did, but I Hope not. But still, congrats to him.
The guy who got second place is also someone in my local gaming group, and hes a super good player. Im surprised he whipped out his tyranids, he usually plays Craftworld. His skills at warhammer 40k tabletop is what often makes him win despite using not necessarily great factions.
With new codexes, people tend to win a lot easier because others dont know how to counter it. thats how it often goes with new codexes, win rates surges, and then falls a bit. some more than others.
If this GT had been a few months later, the guy who got second place could have won id say. very very skilled person.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh right that reminds me. This codex has.. er.. "been out" for a tiny while now, how do you guys feel about mechanized gameplay; do they gain the most from being Bad Moon or Freebootas?
koooaei wrote: Goff squigosaur with killchoppa and bbk trait the killiest hq that we've got. Can also be quite problematic to understand how all the rules interact.
Reading that thread I honestly have no idea what conclusion people came to.
I'll just be a good little grot and keep my head down until an FAQ comes out
That one confuses me as well, so I'll attempt to break one activation down and ask the right questions:
For clarity and not going back and forth between profiles, I'd first resolve the three squigosaur jaw attacks. These are listed as 'additional attacks' to make, so BBK should not trigger for them (?). The Goff-trait, however, adds not extra attacks but extra hits and should trigger. The sixes on wound rolls inflict three MWs each and are discarded.
Then the five attacks with the Killchoppa: Not-hitting attacks are set aside for BBK, sixes add another hit which need to be of another dice-colour since they are extras. In wounding, failed wounds of the original attacks are added to BBK, the the failed extra hit attacks are not. Sixes add MWs. Same is true for the saving step (minus the MWs, ofc).
Afterwards, the BBK attacks are handled. They do trigger the Goff-trait on hit rolls since these are additional hits and not additional attacks (?) and the MWs on wound rolls of 6.
Would people agree on that?
One might also argue that if an attack generates two hits, it could count only as not reaching the inflict damage step if both hits don't reach it. If so, we'd have to roll the additional hits in pairs with the normal hits when rolling wounds and so far. Now that would grow tiresome
BBK is an annoyingly ambiguous rule that they need to faq no matter how you view it. More than likely it will reference the stock Attack stat, and not any additionals.
On that note, digging around trying to find answers regarding to BBK i ran into this faq:
Page 91 – Rare Rules, Attacks That Make Multiple Hit Rolls Add the following to the end of this Rare Rules entry: ‘Some rules can generate additional attacks during the attack sequence itself, e.g. ‘after resolving all this model’s attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.’ In these cases, these additional attacks can never benefit from rules that let you roll more than one hit roll for each attack being made – they can only ever generate one additional hit roll for each attack being made – but all other rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each additional hit roll. In addition, these additional attacks cannot themselves trigger any rules that would generate any further additional attacks.’
Kinda feels like this answers the issue at hand but also doesnt at the same time. Man i hate GW rulewriting... it also almost sounds like +1 attack effects (Choppa) wouldnt trigger Goff exploding 6s, which if thats true then man that kinda hurts goff
Vineheart01 wrote: BBK is an annoyingly ambiguous rule that they need to faq no matter how you view it. More than likely it will reference the stock Attack stat, and not any additionals.
On that note, digging around trying to find answers regarding to BBK i ran into this faq:
Page 91 – Rare Rules, Attacks That Make Multiple Hit Rolls Add the following to the end of this Rare Rules entry: ‘Some rules can generate additional attacks during the attack sequence itself, e.g. ‘after resolving all this model’s attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.’ In these cases, these additional attacks can never benefit from rules that let you roll more than one hit roll for each attack being made – they can only ever generate one additional hit roll for each attack being made – but all other rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each additional hit roll. In addition, these additional attacks cannot themselves trigger any rules that would generate any further additional attacks.’
Kinda feels like this answers the issue at hand but also doesnt at the same time. Man i hate GW rulewriting... it also almost sounds like +1 attack effects (Choppa) wouldnt trigger Goff exploding 6s, which if thats true then man that kinda hurts goff
But those are not additional hit rolls but additional hits, so it would work. I think the disambiguation here is between 'additional hit rolls'=='additional attacks' and 'additional hits'=='additional wound rolls'
I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
Though it does feel like the new book did pull some of our teeth in regards to making a killy character. The Killa klaw, brutal but kunnin' biker boss with the biggest boss tossed on was one hell of a reliable beatstick that could one shot knights with ease.
Outside of some janky interaction that could be FAQed it feels like they really pushed the tanky angle of orks with most of our relics and traits. Mostly for the shear fun of it I want to convert a mega armoured boss holding a big ass stormshield to represent Da Krushin' Armour. Good thing it comes in the battlebox so i'll have spares to mess with.
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK?
It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK?
It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
Also, seems like we're starting to get teasers for Warzone Octarius. Meaning we'll likely get some character upgrades. Hopefully they'll be better than the Kustom jobs, I would love some auras besides +1 to hit.
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK? It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
Working on it, first post is like 90% done. Just got a few clans and the list of botched rules to go.
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK? It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
Yeah, peak YMDC performance. Utterly worthless gak from people intentionally misreading stuff to predend that they're clever. With YMDC being a gakshow and General full of grognards whining about a version they never play, the ork community is literally the only thing keeping me on dakka.
wait, the squiggosaurs and squig units that can only make 3 attacks, dont benefit from brutal but kunning? oh well. i dont have a squig boss so ive never been in the situation.
I assumed that they did because you started a new sequence.
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK? It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
Working on it, first post is like 90% done. Just got a few clans and the list of botched rules to go.
cody.d. wrote: I think there is a thread specifically for that particular interaction. Let's not open that tin of worms here hmm?
I could not find that post, does it deal with additional attack rules at large or just with BBK? It would be nice to have it linked here (and if @Jidmah makes a new 'primer' post also in that) since it probably will come up a lot
Yeah, peak YMDC performance. Utterly worthless gak from people intentionally misreading stuff to predend that they're clever. With YMDC being a gakshow and General full of grognards whining about a version they never play, the ork community is literally the only thing keeping me on dakka.
rofl same. except for a few situations where i had questions, this is also generally the only thread i really look at.
In short, for those who is not too eager to dive into the ymdc:
Goff squigosaur with Killchoppa and Brutal but cunning:
Mortal wounds seem to be in their own attack sequence that is generated after the initial attack sequence, so they do not affect brutal but cunning being triggered.
If you swing with a Killchoppa and get a 6 to wound and inflict a mw but the initial swing is saved, you get a bonus attack.
Squig jaw's +3 attacks are additional attacks but are not generated during the attack sequence, so can trigger bbk extra attacks.
If squig jaws roll a 6 to wound they inflict mw and also generate an additional attack cause the initial sequence breaks before dealing damage.
Extra hits from goff's 6s do not affect how bbk works - only the initial attack sequence counts.
...
I'm pretty sure gw would have no idea how the rules currently interact and will just faq it randomly to their liking.
Btw, after ymdc remembered an old Russian anecdote:
Spoiler:
Old plumber and his young apprentice are called to fix some severe sewer problem. They go there, open a hatch and see that sewers are filled to the brim with crap. So, master holds his breath and dives right in. Some time passes, he emerges to the surface:
- Pass me a 40mm spanner.
Gets the spanner and dives there again. Than swims to the surface.
- Pass me the 50mm spanner.
Gets the spanner and dives right in there. Yet again, some time passes and he emerges to the surface.
- Watch and learn, or you'll just be passing spanners all your life.
It doesn't help that GW's "fix" to everyone's favourite ludicrously overpowered Succubus is basically incomprehensible.
FWIW I think you should get to attack again if you roll a 6 with the Killchoppa but the attack is then saved - but you don't with the Squigosaur, on the grounds that [and the attack sequence ends] trumps "but I get to go again cos I didn't do damage tho?".
Realistically these rules are incredibly obnoxious, it would surely be easier to just give "reroll all failed hits, failed wounds and your opponent rerolls successful saves" if that's sort of what GW wanted. (Not totally sure if it maths out the same, but it must be similar.)
Bbk should never trigger from Squigosaurs attacks, since they are hard-capped at 3 ("and no more than 3 Attacks may be made with this profile"), unless you try to argue that the bbk bonus attacks don't have to be taken with the same weapon that did the initial attack...
thats the issue, per its own wording it does trigger All it checks is after its done attacking, if any attacks made by this model failed to reach the damage step then it makes 1 more attack for each.
The issue mostly revolves around 40k not having mount rules, like AoS, where the mount is NOT the same as "this model" and most things dont affect it. It shouldnt trigger, but it does right now. And will most likely get faq'd into an even more confusing description so we just accept it like the Psychic Awakening Holy Order faq of "we treat it this way because otherwise it breaks half the game" and ignore the problem.
I'm running 3 detachments. Initially I was initially thinking mozrog, a EVIL SUNZ biker boss with killa klaw and junk boss and a GOFF mega armoured boss with Ard as nails and a cyborg body. On reflection a beastboss on squigasaur (probably with BBK and beasthide mantle) is better than the last two. But which one? 115 points to spend.
CaptainO wrote: I'm running 3 detachments. Initially I was initially thinking mozrog, a EVIL SUNZ biker boss with killa klaw and junk boss and a GOFF mega armoured boss with Ard as nails and a cyborg body. On reflection a beastboss on squigasaur (probably with BBK and beasthide mantle) is better than the last two. But which one? 115 points to spend.
Realistically, I would say to replace the Goff MAW. Mobility is the name of the game and being able to not rely on transports to ferry your key characters is pretty big IMO, and it also restricts which combat HQ's your opponent can reasonable attempt to stop with screens/roadblock units.
So thinking about freebootaz, just because I love em a bunch. Seems like a unit of burnaboyz would be a great unit for triggering the streak, deep strike em in, torch a unit and start off the chain. But sadly it seems like you can't make them pyromaniacs as that would change out the <freebootaz> keyword to <Pyromaniacs> Correct?
Also, i'm umming and erring on grots, specifically mek guns being able to proc the chain. But I think you do, because even though grots don't get access to the culture abilities they still keep the clan keyword which is all that's needed for the kompettitive streak to start right?
And did we ever confirm if the competitive streak stacks infinitely or if it's a yes or no type thing? It does specify each time, but, damn that ability could have been worded a little more cleanly. "This unit gets 1+ to hit rolls if an enemy unit was destroyed by a freebootaz unit this phase."
Vineheart01 wrote: thats the issue, per its own wording it does trigger
All it checks is after its done attacking, if any attacks made by this model failed to reach the damage step then it makes 1 more attack for each.
The issue mostly revolves around 40k not having mount rules, like AoS, where the mount is NOT the same as "this model" and most things dont affect it.
It shouldnt trigger, but it does right now. And will most likely get faq'd into an even more confusing description so we just accept it like the Psychic Awakening Holy Order faq of "we treat it this way because otherwise it breaks half the game" and ignore the problem.
...well at the minute i am treating it as bbk gives the MODEL extra attacks without restriction to a particular weapon and i allocate those attacks to weapons accordingly adhering to
"If a unit attacks with multiple weapons, all attacks made with weapons that have the same profile must be resolved before resolving attacks with the next." rule.
so can't use the killchoppa - use squigosaurus - and go back and use killchoppa again.
i resolve squigosaurus first and put the extra attacks to one side
resolve killchoppa and put the extra attacks to one side
take the extra attacks from both and put them into killchoppa
the wording of BBK does say
Each time this WARLORD fights, if all of its attacks target one enemy unit, after resolving all of those attacks, it can make a number of additional attacks against that enemy unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage step of the attack sequence during that fight.
after resolving all of those attacks - so you have to resolve BBK attacks after all your other attacks are resolved this means putting all BBK attacks into the last melee weapon you used to be compliant with the multi weapon core rule.
BBK only triggers if you have 1 target and i haven't seen anything anywhere yet that says addional attacks generated by the attack sequence have to be with the same weapon.......
how bbk works with goffs isn't just not clear, it's just not even covered.
i just go with the RAI goffs additional hits don't generate BBK attacks.
and
BBK attacks don't generate goffs addional hits
Hey all - I've been toying with stompa lists for a few hours since I finally put mine back together after years spent in pieces. Not looking to shatter the tourney meta just krump beakies and drink grog.
List is comprised only of models I actually own or can reasonably proxy (i.e. Boyz for snaggas/kommandos/stormboyz)
Lot of Squgbuggies, Dakkajets, Freebootas but also interesting note about Ghazzy + triplle Killtank list or Evil sunz infantry mix list.
It seems our gakky new codex makes us super strong in various ways. Which seems pretty interesting!
Triple killtanks with Ghaz is a curious one. Obviously the speedwaagh is great for pumping up the ap of the shoota variants. Though they don't get to benefit from the foot waagh. Makes me wonder if they were goff tanks to get exploding 6s in combat and be pushed up to the rather handy str 10 first round of combat.
Honestly do any of the klans work particularly well with the killtanks? I adore them and would love for them to be viable.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
I think it's a big nope in the vast majority of cases. It's just better to bite the bullet of paying 3 CP for the outrider detachment to get the extra slots to run the singles you need. I mean you can argue that the scrapjets benefit the most since they only need to be within half of an inch of one that makes it into combat to get their attacks now, but with the loss of korkscrew, you actually don't want scrapjets in CC immediately most of the time and having a unit of 2-3 makes getting into certain parts of the board that much more tricky. Also, having a unit not only incurs the morale issue you mentioned, but more importantly means that stuff like melta becomes way more effective in inflicting overkill since units like Eradicators get to maximize their shots/abilities rather than if they had to split their fire between several units.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
With the changes to how kustom jobs work I can't really say there's a reason to take massive squads. Before it was a case of pay 1CP and up to 3 scrapjets can fight in CC twice.
Now? Well I don't think i'd take more than 2, and in most situations I'd want to take 2 units of 1. Unless you had a super specific plan in mind regarding stratagems taking 3 seems to offer no real benefits.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
I think it's a big nope in the vast majority of cases. It's just better to bite the bullet of paying 3 CP for the outrider detachment to get the extra slots to run the singles you need. I mean you can argue that the scrapjets benefit the most since they only need to be within half of an inch of one that makes it into combat to get their attacks now, but with the loss of korkscrew, you actually don't want scrapjets in CC immediately most of the time and having a unit of 2-3 makes getting into certain parts of the board that much more tricky. Also, having a unit not only incurs the morale issue you mentioned, but more importantly means that stuff like melta becomes way more effective in inflicting overkill since units like Eradicators get to maximize their shots/abilities rather than if they had to split their fire between several units.
Kind of as I thought. I keep seeing lists pop up with multiple buggies per slot and was wondering if there was something I was missing.
What kind of lists are people running at the moment? I know it's early days yet, but I feel like other than bikers, smasha guns and squig units, there haven't been enormous shake ups from last edition in the lists that we're seeing.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
With the changes to how kustom jobs work I can't really say there's a reason to take massive squads. Before it was a case of pay 1CP and up to 3 scrapjets can fight in CC twice.
Now? Well I don't think i'd take more than 2, and in most situations I'd want to take 2 units of 1. Unless you had a super specific plan in mind regarding stratagems taking 3 seems to offer no real benefits.
Nothing too crazy from me, just two individual scrapjects and two individual snazzwagons. I'm just very surprised to see all these GT lists popping up with squads of them.
I still think that there's one vital piece of the ork puzzle missing. And in all likleyhood that's going to be in the octarius war book. Maybe there'll be speedfreeks based big meks, giving some buff that makes big units of buggies enticing.
willing to bet theres more units they didnt include.
Beastsnagga is our primaris, and theres a lot of weird gaps right now in doing that. We may not get them as rapid as marines but i suspect a wave2 at some point.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
IMO that heavily depends on the buggy. For example, the squig buggy doesn't need LoS and doesn't need to get too close to be able to hit stuff. You can easily get away with sitting full units of them in your backfield, as we see in many tournament lists. The SJD still works reasonably well in pairs, only when you bump them up to 3 you get problems finding good spots to deep strike them.
For KBB and scrapjet you can probably manage to get a single unit of 3 across the board, as you will probably losing one or two of them before it matter. As for the boomdakka snazzwagon I really don't see a reason to run more than one of it, as with the nerfed burna bottles its primary role seems to be squatting on objectives, and having more than one doesn't really matter for that purpose.
That said, it heavily depends on your boards. Tournament tables tend to be mostly empty, so you have no problems putting that many buggies in your deployment zone. But if you have scenic boards, are playing on the more beautiful TTS boards that aren't just brown "L"s or are just using more terrain in general, you might find yourself forced to put your units of 3 into reserves.
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
That is one of the hottest questions. Needs more games to try. But if you look on the goonhammer lists and other previously spotted you see that Squigbuggies are mostly prefered as a single or double model units (bigger flexibility I guess?) and Scrapjets mostly in full squad of 3 - for sweet 3 x D3 MW on 4+ I guess.
I seriously doubt that more than one or two scrapjets will survive to make a charge. In my games it's always the first unit that ends up dead, for good reasons.
There are arguments for taking squads of buggies:
- rule of 3. You might want to get more than 3 skrapjets or squig buggies, so you got to start squadding them
- access to cloud of smoke and kff. If you're taking 6-10 squads of 1, some will get out of 6" radius. If you squad them, you'll likely get all the benefits for all the vehicles.
- Mellee and d3 mw from skrapjets. There are a number of situations where you got to charge. It's likely there won't be enough place to fit 2 separate squad buggies. If they are all in one squad, you'll fit all 3. Also, you might want to finish off a dread or mortarion but if you charge with separate squads, he will interrupt and wreck the rest of the buggies that haven't striked yet.
- You might want to screen. If you're running single squads, the opponent will just choose a buggy he wants dead and rush into the opening. If you have them squadded, you choose which dies first.
koooaei wrote: There are arguments for taking squads of buggies:
- rule of 3. You might want to get more than 3 skrapjets or squig buggies, so you got to start squadding them
- access to cloud of smoke and kff. If you're taking 6-10 squads of 1, some will get out of 6" radius. If you squad them, you'll likely get all the benefits for all the vehicles.
- Mellee and d3 mw from skrapjets. There are a number of situations where you got to charge. It's likely there won't be enough place to fit 2 separate squad buggies. If they are all in one squad, you'll fit all 3. Also, you might want to finish off a dread or mortarion but if you charge with separate squads, he will interrupt and wreck the rest of the buggies that haven't striked yet.
- You might want to screen. If you're running single squads, the opponent will just choose a buggy he wants dead and rush into the opening. If you have them squadded, you choose which dies first.
One GT (?) list posted on goonhammer used a 3er squad of scrapjets with tellyporta and ramming speed to good effect
Afrodactyl wrote: What are people's thoughts/experiences on running buggies in squads?
I'm still dubious about the effects of morale on them, and their manoeuvrability as a unit.
That is one of the hottest questions. Needs more games to try. But if you look on the goonhammer lists and other previously spotted you see that Squigbuggies are mostly prefered as a single or double model units
It's to abuse their LoS ignoring ranged attacks, I think. It's harder to hide 3 vehicles than 1.
Basically one reason to use big squads of anything not just buggies is that the stratagems you use will affect more models, like the cloud of smoke one someone mentioned above.
Ground shaker shells for squig buggies
More dakka
Drive by dakka are just a few I can think of off the top of my head
Now that the dust is settling, what lists are running at the moment?
It seems to be mostly variants of the buggy list that run with and without either air support (dakkajets/wazbom blastajets) or the squighog boyz. Min squads of boyz or grots for troops and then really pushing MSU squads of Kommandos and Stormboyz for objective grabbing and actions. You have Deffkilla Wartrikes/WB on Warbikes or Beastbosses on Squigosaurs as staple HQ's to lead your detachments, with some support options from Big Meks in MA with either KFF/Tellyporta Blasta alongside the Da Dead Shiny Shoota.
I'm thinking of running a squad of Gretchin with 'Orrible Gitz in a BW together with 4 MANz and a Warboss.
The plan is that the BW drives forward. The next turn the Gretchin jump out on an objective, while the MANz disembark with the Warboss and tries to stomp something with +1 to hit in melee, while not really caring about the -1 to their shooting from getting close to the Gretchin.
If the enemy has a squad with high-strength high AP shooting, I might even be able to use Grot Shields!
Any thoughts?
Bonde wrote: I'm thinking of running a squad of Gretchin with 'Orrible Gitz in a BW together with 4 MANz and a Warboss.
The plan is that the BW drives forward. The next turn the Gretchin jump out on an objective, while the MANz disembark with the Warboss and tries to stomp something with +1 to hit in melee, while not really caring about the -1 to their shooting from getting close to the Gretchin.
If the enemy has a squad with high-strength high AP shooting, I might even be able to use Grot Shields!
Any thoughts?
Yeah, that 10 boyz are just 40 points more expensive and much better than gretchins in every possible way. 50 if you give a pk to the nob but then could also work as a back up for the heavy hitters. You may also want the specialist mob slot for another unit. I'd suggest considering gretchins only if you really can't spare the points. Anyway I play 5 meganobz and 10 boyz in a BW quite often, it's a solid combo.
Bonde wrote: I'm thinking of running a squad of Gretchin with 'Orrible Gitz in a BW together with 4 MANz and a Warboss.
The plan is that the BW drives forward. The next turn the Gretchin jump out on an objective, while the MANz disembark with the Warboss and tries to stomp something with +1 to hit in melee, while not really caring about the -1 to their shooting from getting close to the Gretchin.
If the enemy has a squad with high-strength high AP shooting, I might even be able to use Grot Shields!
Any thoughts?
The only problem with that is we still don't know how exactly specialist mobz interact with vehicles that don't have the same keyword, since RAW, Gretchin with the Orrible Gitz specialist mob loses the KLAN keyword and thus can't embark on the same battlewagon as the Meganobz and Warboss, who obviously can't get the 'Orrible Gitz keyword as the gretchin can. Not a bad idea otherwise, the main issue with BW at the moment is that they're strictly inferior to Kill Rigs as a unit.
I ran a patrol of Goffs and a outrider of evil suns at 1500 points against another ork goff army the other day and won.
My main takeaways from the game were...
-Dragstas are so much worse now and not really worth taking
-10 goff Boyz on the charge are actually very dangerous especially against low armour units
-red paint evil suns relic is absolutely incredible on a wartrike next to a big squad of bikes. I was charged by Boyz and would have definitely been wiped off it weren't for that relic. As a result my bikes and wartrike killed about 9 Boyz before they even swung and basically turned the tide of the game.
-dakkajet is an absolute bargain. Even hitting on 5s the sheer amount of fire is great, it knocked out 2 mekk guns, a trukk and a deffdred plus for me engage on all fronts and generally was a pain in the ass.
Loving the new codex and currently painting more bikes and squighogs as they seem excellent.
I think it’s hard to take most tournament lists as a measure of units in the book when a vast majoorty of our new models aren’t even for sale yet. Killrigs, beastboss on squig limited number of squig riders tend to make list building hard to accomplish.
But ya faqs, fw, and campaign book will add a few quirks to the rules to make orks play different soon.
I bet 10 original pilsen beer
