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5pt grots will never make sense until Guard go up in points.
Or even cultists for that matter (which are worse than guard and more expensive)

I'm personally not eager on the idea of 2 wound Boyz. I like the idea of boyz being more than double the number of space marines on the table top. I am actually happy about this change on the whole, as I know a lot of players who miss using their old marines and a lot of chaos players who have felt left behind.
If I had to ask for a change to boyz it'd be to buff armour saves a tad bit, looks like AP is getting power crept again and just having an a 5+ and ard boyz at a 4+ would be nice.

What I am actually expecting to come from this change is this 12" change to flamers will apply to burnas and skorchas too. That could put burna boyz back on the table (though they still might need more work) and if it doesn't it makes the skorchas and kombi skorchas valid picks.

I think 2 wound boys are very probable.

Think of the 9th as this sort of thing:

Less models, more impactful.

Boys going up to like.. 10 points, but two wound each? That's more impactful, and also makes it a lot easier to splash a couple squads, because they can actually take some punishment.

We'll see, though. Honestly, it would be the best thing for a number of our units to increase in wounds... Nobs to 3 (so heavy bolters don't one shot them), Mega Nobs to 4, Nob Bikers to 4...

I'm of two minds about making boyz 2 wounds and upping their cost. Ork boyz durability has always been their pts to wounds ratio. Having more bodies than your opponent has bullets before they get overwhelmed. If boyz get more wounds they're going to be more vulnerable to the D2 weapons that are already fairly common and likely to get even more common as multi wound models fill the meta.

Up boyz to two wounds doesn't make them more vulnerable to D2 weapons, it makes them just as vulnerable to them as they are now, but less vulnerable to D1 weapons which are usually the best way to get rid of a large number of boyz.
You'd basically have the same phenomenon as you have with smasha guns - the aren't actually susceptible to anti-tank weapons because those guns can't efficiently kill them, even if they are the best guns for the job.

In general, I'd love to see a chance to boyz that makes them less of a chore to play and build. The only way to do that is by reducing the model count while increase each models power and durability.

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

YEs wounds same but models die less. And 3 pts more for tacticals. This is already known FACT. Tac marine with 2 wounds is 18 pts. So worth of shooting nearly halved.

Ork boyy with 4 attacks killed 6.666666 pts worth of tacticals. Now 4 pts. 40% drop in efficiency and they weren't stellar at it.

So boyz will be just for sitting objectives. Forget actually using them to kill stuff. IF you don't have damage 2 you are too inefficient to attack.

Seriously guys, it's quite clear that the 5pt gretchin and 8pt ork boyz were not motivated by having them balanced against guardsmen or intercessors.

They want ork armies to look like they do in their publications. Have two units of boyz, a unit of gretchin and toyz for the rest of the army. But no matter what they do, we always fall back on boyz and gretchin as solid backbone of our army and just flood the board with them.

They simply don't want us to flood the board with our troops, so they broke our back and turned them into pure tax, forcing us into building armies they way the envision.
For the same reason cultists went up and guardsmen didn't. They want to sculpt armies into a certain shape. Both GW employees and play testers hinted at this during multiple streams.

I don't think such a heavy-handed change is a good thing, but either way any discussion about whether orks and gretchin are balanced against other units is moot when the motivation behind the change wasn't motivated by balance in the first place.

 Jidmah wrote:
Seriously guys, it's quite clear that the 5pt gretchin and 8pt ork boyz were not motivated by having them balanced against guardsmen or intercessors.

...

They want ork armies to look like they do in their publications. Have two units of boyz, a unit of gretchin and toyz for the rest of the army. But no matter what they do, we always fall back on boyz and gretchin as solid backbone of our army and just flood the board with them.

And look at the two armies that top their GTs: 1 flooded the board with boys (Ghaz Goff spam), the other IGNORED them completely (buggy spam, no boys).

They are in such an awkward space from a design perspective. They aren't killy enough per point to be worth it; they do help with board control, but really only if you spam them, because they die so easily.

I would love to be able to field 1-2 mid sized walking boy squads unironically. I think the only way to do that, if weapons are getting EVEN killier (shots are probably going up, damage is going up, range on stuff like Flamers is going up), is if boys get tankier or cheaper. They aren't going for cheaper, so I expect they'll get something like an extra wound.

tneva82 wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
This may be the point where 5pt grots make sense..
If Gw makes a lot of infantry units 2+ wounds and raises the points cost acccordingly.... then 5 pt grots can make sense.
I would still hope Guard infantry which I suspect stays 1 wound at least goes up as well in points since there will be more room in that point space.

Uh 18 pts tactical rather than 15 and extra wound make 5 pts grots make more sene...how? Grots become even less good relatively. Boyz will need 18 attacks to kill 1 tactical. Full boyz mob charging won't kill full tactical squad. Grot damage output takes down even less points. Before 30 grots killed 29 points worth of tacticals. Now they kill 17.5 points worth of tacticals...How is that making more sense?

Any damage1 weapons are getting less and less relevant. Boyz are more and more cemented to just sit in objective role as their damage output keeps suffering.

In fairness, their damage output hasn't changed. They still do the same X wounds per attacks against MEQ. It's only in the number of dead models that it's changed, and even then the marines should have less models (in theory) due to the points increases which might balance out.

Plus, we have a plethora of weapons D2 and above. We'll just do what we've always done and shoot the granny out of them, and drown everything else in melee attacks.

YEs wounds same but models die less. And 3 pts more for tacticals. This is already known FACT. Tac marine with 2 wounds is 18 pts. So worth of shooting nearly halved.

Ork boyy with 4 attacks killed 6.666666 pts worth of tacticals. Now 4 pts. 40% drop in efficiency and they weren't stellar at it.

So boyz will be just for sitting objectives. Forget actually using them to kill stuff. IF you don't have damage 2 you are too inefficient to attack.

18pts for the base model weapon profiles are changing and likely going up. Plus as said before you already have less tactical models becuase thier points increase. Furthermore it was flat out said all armies will get upgrades and point updates including boys so comparing unupgraded boys vs unreleased upgrades marines isn’t exactly a fair comparison even if I think Gw release schedule of this update is bad.

The point being if grots stay 5 pts and everything else including basic guard infantry go up in points then grots will be better relatively since they once again become a low cost option instead of the poor cost comparatively option they are now.

I think Gw is just trying to make the game quicker pace by making the board smaller, increasing points, dropping an entire round, forcing armies to get more mobile through missions, and putting a larger focus on monster/vehicles. I also think the changes to weapons and wounds was planned with 9th edition release but for whatever reason Gw chose to piece mail those changes through new codexs instead of redoing a massive index like the last edition.

Just thinkin' out loud (only type I can do really, at least my lips have to move). But I might be happy if they maybe leaned into the "Mechanized horde" aspect of orks. Up the capacity of our transports and give us the ability to charge after the transport has moved. (with a suitable penalty, mortal wounds or such).
It'd keep the pace up (moving one trukk is much quicker than 15/20 boyz), it'd give us that "they die in droves but just keep coming" aspect that I like... and thematically, I just love the visual of the trukk screeching to a halt whilst a ball of screamin boyz gets unceremoniously ejected from the bonnet.
Dunno, I might take that over an extra wound and points increase...

If that's the intended result it's a hamfisted way to do it, much better of just using classic 0-1, 0-2, 0-3 unit limitations.


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It beats the old style where stuff was left broken for a year or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 some bloke wrote:
I would love to see more variety in our infantry. 2 wounds boys would be ace - 2 wound boys with a bit of armour would be amazing. Certainly worth running in trukks!

So... Nobs?

WaaaghPolice wrote:
Just thinkin' out loud (only type I can do really, at least my lips have to move). But I might be happy if they maybe leaned into the "Mechanized horde" aspect of orks. Up the capacity of our transports and give us the ability to charge after the transport has moved. (with a suitable penalty, mortal wounds or such).
It'd keep the pace up (moving one trukk is much quicker than 15/20 boyz), it'd give us that "they die in droves but just keep coming" aspect that I like... and thematically, I just love the visual of the trukk screeching to a halt whilst a ball of screamin boyz gets unceremoniously ejected from the bonnet.
Dunno, I might take that over an extra wound and points increase...

I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army

Wishlisting furiously, I would make trukks cheaper by 5-10 points, and give the trukk and battlewagon a rule that an embarked Ork unit can charge out of it as long as it remains open topped. If I didn't make them cheaper, I'd up trukks to 16 capacity. If it needs a downside, then d3 mortal wounds on a successful charge.

If we can't have Orks charging out of their transports, then how about a rule that says that if the transport is within engagement range, then one (and only one) embarked unit can make melee attacks as if it too were in engagement range. If that's too good, then make it a cheap strat or something but let all the embarked units attack.


I'm just not keen on 2W boys. I can see why marines got 2W apiece, but if boys get more wounds they will get even more expensive, and making them less viable, and taking away from the endless green tide fluff.

Technically orks can already attack from inside a transport, but its only against vehicles and its a stratagem.

I almost never remember it exists. It isnt very good either as its 1 attack per model.

 Afrodactyl wrote:


I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army
...

Mad Max: The Army.

Can someone hire a plane to write this in the sky above GW HQ? It's such a simple, one line sell, but it buys into so much of the Armaggeddon and other fluff that the execs would EAT THIS UP!

theyre already kinda going that route so might as well go full force into it.
I mean, majority of what we got thats actually good right now is a vehicle.

WaaaghPolice wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:


I would love for GW to do this. We already have the endless horde of unpleasant things on foot in Tyranids and daemons. I say let Orks be Mad Max: The Army
...

Mad Max: The Army.

Can someone hire a plane to write this in the sky above GW HQ? It's such a simple, one line sell, but it buys into so much of the Armaggeddon and other fluff that the execs would EAT THIS UP!

Most of our vehicles already look like they've been copy/pasted out of a Fury Road action sequence, just give us the rules for it!


Also, 30" range bolters are now a thing. I'm really hoping that GW are just going to cycle through each codex giving them all similar updates and buffs, and that it won't be just Imperium armies (but let's be real it's clearly just for marines) getting the buffs.

I refuse to go back to the 'sky is falling' attitude I had when 9th dropped. I'll remain optimistic even if it kills me.


:EDIT:
Just add a retcon line of fluff that says Ghaz found his old car keys and remembered that cars are cooler than walking. Or Wazdakka has taken the reins from Big G.

Or hell bring Wazdakka back, give him a sidecar and stick Ghaz in that.

 Afrodactyl wrote:


Or hell bring Wazdakka back, give him a sidecar and stick Ghaz in that.

insert Wallace and Gromit Gif here.

They said all armies are getting redesigned old modles/wargear not just marines.
All they didnt say, is when. Thats my only fear about this, if its like in early 8th theres gonna be a near year period where most people just dont play because they didnt get "their turn" yet

Orks are getting buffs, we just have no idea on what, how, or when.

I'm guessing we're an early codex based on that teaser.

SoB, Orks, Dark Eldar, Nurgle I think we're on it?

And even the word on some of the battle report channels, some of the guys seem to be hinting there is stuff they have (A couple of them are big Orks fans), it seems like we just need to hustle down until maybe Christmas, or early next year.

No offense to my speed freak friends here, but i like orkz being the crazy amalgamation army that they are. It really pisses me off that Killa Kanz are functionally useless right now, as is the stompa and most of our vehicles that aren't buggies and hell, all of our infantry just got hit with a nerf hammer. A Heavy Bolter is now slaughtering nobz like its cool. The buffs SM players are getting is wonderful for them, but if it takes GW a long time to release updates for everyone else's army its going to be a Similar to 7th edition Space Elves, where players refuse to play against them and the elves have to play with themselves or tone their lists down to hamstring everything they have.

And yeah, that actually happened to every single Space Elf player in my area.

Once again, complaining about marines is against this thread's rules. Please join one of the dozen of threads about the new leaks if you feel like discussing this topic.

Remember when we all thought ghaz was overpriced and bad rules wise...
then Gw nerfed all our main competitive options and raised the price on most things until ghaz became competitive...
Good times!!!
(They also gave him adv and charge)

Just remember it is not bad if you simply make all other options worse!!!- GW rules writing note of the Day

Just had a recent 1000 point game with trukks and buggies as my main army list, using a Warboss on foot now that the Warboss on Bike is no longer a thing *shakes fist angrily*. I ran him with a Deffkilla Wartrike and he was still surprisingly decent with the mandatory Biggest Boss and Killa Klaw upgrade. I thought his lack of mobility compared to the Biker boss would make him dead weight, but as long as you position him correctly with his transport, and stick to one of the main objectives in the middle where things will inevitably be duking out, he does the job in helping clear threatening multi-wound models that can give our buggies trouble. Given that most buggies/wartrike are fast enough to get Engage on All Fronts and either go after objectives/murder as needed, I feel like it wasn't as big as I loss as I first feared. I probably won't make him my Warlord again though, just because he's too much of a high risk target at that point if he's fighting near the scrum in the middle.

I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

miscNouns wrote:
I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

Zagstruk is probably fine. The issue is HQ slots. In a list that might include him, you are probably fighting it out with Ghaz, a warboss, weirdboys, and KFF Meks. He probably won't make the cut.

I'd say no to Stormboyz. The main issue is they went up 33% from the previous edition (9 -> 12 points)... that 10 man unit could net you 3 Mega Nobs with double saw, which I would take in a heart beat. Or a Deff dread. Or a Buggy. Too expensive for what they do.

miscNouns wrote:
I'm just getting back into 40k after a hiatus since tail end of 5th/ beginning of 6th. Are Zagstruk and stormboyz any good now? I've heard that 9th is pretty objective based so I was thinking maybe there is some use in 3 10-man squads for board control

Zagstruk as mentioned above me is himself okay, but unfortunately, the unit he synergizes most is pretty much grot poop at the moment. Compared to kommandos (which is where their price point should be tbh), stormboyz are very lacking for the premium you pay given how fragile they are and the lack of damage output they have. You're better off with more boyz than taking them if you're going for a green tide-esque Goff list, using either Da Jump or Tellyportaz to get them to where you need them to be.

Another game with buggy list last night againts guard with a lot of leman russes and lot of guardsman.

My list 3xSJD, 3xScrapJet, 5x SMG, wartrike, wazboom, bu-bommer and battlewagon filled with 10 boyz, 4MAN and Warboss with squig. Deathskulls

- I deploy 5 SMG in line 9” from the edge, 6” in between. Works hilarious. Fire in the narrow LOS across the field for few points, sometimes moves a little bit without penalties. And makes perfect screen in my backfield againts DS + control objective
- SJD are the best, but 3 of them is a max. They control the board, objectives and do a really serious damage.
- SJ are the real workhorse. Do a lot of damage (btw. Have you seen, than their weapon profile is similar like leman russ battlecannon?), deal a MW in charge to finish stuff and die first, because everybody shoots on this source of mass rocket fire.
- wartrike flamers improved by kustom job are.... working at least? First time use it againts ideal target (20 guardsman) and it was not so impresive.
- Engage on all fronts with 3xSJD is better and easier to gain than Linebreaker
- eadbut “just” 21 MW this time
- 4 MANz with killsawa get in touch with leman russ tank commander. Just 2 of them was in close combat. I used Hit them harder and Get stuck in Ladz and this 2 MAN annihilated this tank ace in to dust.
- when the wazboom has a luck, it can kill leman russ itself.
- I think about 3 more SJs. Or KBB. However, the dense terrain makes a real trafic jams. Seriously. Buggies have a fat bases and it',s the main topic. How to move them and do not stuck in some “neck”.
- BW with deffrolla is epic model. And it' s epic to play. I take it back on table after 2 years and hey, it' s cool and like Forktress, it works.

Nice little write up on the units Tomsug but what does SMG stand for, I can't figure it out?