i dont get the warboss detachment limitation for orks. Both because it was common for multiple bosses to be around but they just gave us 3 warboss kits.

They gave us a rule that prevents us from wanting to buy all of the new warbosses because we cannot feasibly use them all.

I dont know why you'd ever, ever use the generic beastboss. Model looks damn sexy but when you cant bring him as a side character how can you justify him over a megaboss or squigboss?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont get the warboss detachment limitation for orks. Both because it was common for multiple bosses to be around but they just gave us 3 warboss kits.

They gave us a rule that prevents us from wanting to buy all of the new warbosses because we cannot feasibly use them all.

I dont know why you'd ever, ever use the generic beastboss. Model looks damn sexy but when you cant bring him as a side character how can you justify him over a megaboss or squigboss?

Because they wanted Beast Snaggas to be a large enough sub-range of our larger model range to support a full army at all common point levels? The squigboss is rather pricey for 500-1000 pt games. Beastboss fits in better.

Not tactics related but I have to say I'm really impressed with the combat patrol box. A solid, functional core to an army, aside from the megaboss (topical) it's all stuff you'd be happy to have multiples of, and almost all of it are new kits.

Madjob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont get the warboss detachment limitation for orks. Both because it was common for multiple bosses to be around but they just gave us 3 warboss kits.

They gave us a rule that prevents us from wanting to buy all of the new warbosses because we cannot feasibly use them all.

I dont know why you'd ever, ever use the generic beastboss. Model looks damn sexy but when you cant bring him as a side character how can you justify him over a megaboss or squigboss?

Because they wanted Beast Snaggas to be a large enough sub-range of our larger model range to support a full army at all common point levels? The squigboss is rather pricey for 500-1000 pt games. Beastboss fits in better.

Not tactics related but I have to say I'm really impressed with the combat patrol box. A solid, functional core to an army, aside from the megaboss (topical) it's all stuff you'd be happy to have multiples of, and almost all of it are new kits.

Honestly, the only thing I feel GW knocked out of the park with this release are the models and the box sets. Rules are a real mixed bag though.

There are marginal reasons for stacking multiple +1's to hit.

Stack two and PK's hit on +1
Stack two and you retain +1 when countered with a minus 1

Madjob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont get the warboss detachment limitation for orks. Both because it was common for multiple bosses to be around but they just gave us 3 warboss kits.

They gave us a rule that prevents us from wanting to buy all of the new warbosses because we cannot feasibly use them all.

I dont know why you'd ever, ever use the generic beastboss. Model looks damn sexy but when you cant bring him as a side character how can you justify him over a megaboss or squigboss?

Because they wanted Beast Snaggas to be a large enough sub-range of our larger model range to support a full army at all common point levels? The squigboss is rather pricey for 500-1000 pt games. Beastboss fits in better.

Not tactics related but I have to say I'm really impressed with the combat patrol box. A solid, functional core to an army, aside from the megaboss (topical) it's all stuff you'd be happy to have multiples of, and almost all of it are new kits.

In that case, megaboss. He really isnt that much more than the beastboss and imo significantly better.
Beastboss feels like the sidekick boss that we can no longer field easily.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Madjob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont get the warboss detachment limitation for orks. Both because it was common for multiple bosses to be around but they just gave us 3 warboss kits.

They gave us a rule that prevents us from wanting to buy all of the new warbosses because we cannot feasibly use them all.

I dont know why you'd ever, ever use the generic beastboss. Model looks damn sexy but when you cant bring him as a side character how can you justify him over a megaboss or squigboss?

Because they wanted Beast Snaggas to be a large enough sub-range of our larger model range to support a full army at all common point levels? The squigboss is rather pricey for 500-1000 pt games. Beastboss fits in better.

Not tactics related but I have to say I'm really impressed with the combat patrol box. A solid, functional core to an army, aside from the megaboss (topical) it's all stuff you'd be happy to have multiples of, and almost all of it are new kits.

In that case, megaboss. He really isnt that much more than the beastboss and imo significantly better.
Beastboss feels like the sidekick boss that we can no longer field easily.

He's not a Beast Snagga. My point was, a clear goal for GW in this release was to make Beast Snaggas a subfaction that you could solely build an army out of at all point levels. They needed a cheaper HQ to achieve that, that's why the Beastboss exists.

On an unrelated note, anyone who decides to try and play Blood Axes is advised to try and bring a few Squignobs - averages 2-3 mortal wounds every time it charges a unit. Keep them close together, charge them into units for a bunch of MW and hopefully whatever is left can't kill them before you fall back and charge something else (or the same target again).

 Grimskul wrote:
The MA Warboss or even Warboss on Warbike is a lot better than the one on Foot, I don't see why you'd take him now. It's kind of all over the place.

This guy had one bright idea I didn't think of. Warboss with attack squig and Brutal but Kunnin'. Because it doesn't say what you have to spend the attacks on, meaning in theory, you wiff the attack squig wound rolls and then happily acquire 1-2 more power klaw attacks.




Also, let's be perfectly honest, if they do give us the FW bikerboss, he's going to end up with Speed Waaagh. And no thanks just for that.

Madjob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
[
Beastboss feels like the sidekick boss that we can no longer field easily.

He's not a Beast Snagga. My point was, a clear goal for GW in this release was to make Beast Snaggas a subfaction that you could solely build an army out of at all point levels. They needed a cheaper HQ to achieve that, that's why the Beastboss exists.

Or. Here's a crazy idea. Maybe just don't make the transports, auras, warlord traits, strategems, and psychic powers subfaction locked, because that's stupid.

Does anyone benefit from having Beast Snaggas that are silo'd? Is it more fun? Is it appealing in literally any way? Does it make the army play better?

Consider how having Snaggas as a side lineup is going to work 5 years from now. It's going to be a constant pain point in every codex release.

 Tomsug wrote:
Hey… this is strong. One unite killed, all other better BS. And in Fight phase again!

To be absolutly clear, does it mean, tha Freebotas - the whole army and in every phase - get +1 to hit roll for EVERY UNIT destroied in every phase? You destroy 5 = you get 5x+1 ? Of course you cannot get to more than +/-1on the end, but you can negate -1 to hit by flyiers or dense cover and still get +1 to hit if you kill two or more…

They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

There's a *remote* chance that we'll see one in a "Second wave" or new Ork models, but I don't think it'll happen, which is … painful.

That HQ slot is *painful* right now.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Hey… this is strong. One unite killed, all other better BS. And in Fight phase again!

To be absolutly clear, does it mean, tha Freebotas - the whole army and in every phase - get +1 to hit roll for EVERY UNIT destroied in every phase? You destroy 5 = you get 5x+1 ? Of course you cannot get to more than +/-1on the end, but you can negate -1 to hit by flyiers or dense cover and still get +1 to hit if you kill two or more…

yes, this is how i read it. it triggers of each unit destroyed by one of your freebootas units and lasts until end of phase

 GoldenHorde wrote:
There are marginal reasons for stacking multiple +1's to hit.

I personally see a multiple +1 to hit source as a way to cover more of the board with the buff instead of trying to concentrate them in a single point for a super buffed out unit. Orks are quite numerous and the 9th edition seems to favor MSU with orks and thus multiple buff vectors scattered around the board might be a thing. Then again, I do not play in very competitive metas and I am poor tactician.

Wakshaani wrote:
They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

There's a *remote* chance that we'll see one in a "Second wave" or new Ork models, but I don't think it'll happen, which is … painful.

That HQ slot is *painful* right now.

A Lefftenunt or Big Boss would be a cool addition.

when i found out the KFF stratagem exploded the KFF i was absolutely devastated..

Who thought that would be a good idea...

It will probably be popped on turn 2 where you get hit by the majority of shooting but afterwards the Big Mek is a useless pile of gak

Are we in agreement that KFF is.... really, really bad now? 20 (or is it 25) points increase, reduced to 6++? Sure, it technically has better range if you daisy chain back to it, but it doesn't do much for boyz and is only useful on vehicles against specifically anti-tank weaponry (which is abundant, but a mek is going to struggle to keep up with anything except walkers).
For example, say you're taking one to protect boyz; instead of spending 85 points on a KFF, you can take 42 beast snagga boyz (2 ppm more than regular boyz) to get the same 6++ but also get +1 S. Or take an extra squad of boyz, which is both more useful tactically AND will be more durable than a 6++ will add to boyz.
If you're taking it to protect kans or dreads, you can buy 2 more kans (10 wounds) or 1 more dread (8 wounds).
Any vehicles you can essentially buy another vehicle for those points, which is an increase in firepower AND 8(?) extra wounds AND he will only keep up with them on turn 1.
The only thing I would consider is taking a MA mek with KFF, it is 30 points more, but specifically to take dead shiny shoota if you otherwise only have named characters and no good choice for relic.

TLDR you're paying 85 points for a pathetic 6++ instead of more models/firepower.

Commissar Yarrork wrote:
Are we in agreement that KFF is.... really, really bad now? 20 (or is it 25) points increase, reduced to 6++? Sure, it technically has better range if you daisy chain back to it, but it doesn't do much for boyz and is only useful on vehicles against specifically anti-tank weaponry (which is abundant, but a mek is going to struggle to keep up with anything except walkers).
For example, say you're taking one to protect boyz; instead of spending 85 points on a KFF, you can take 42 beast snagga boyz (2 ppm more than regular boyz) to get the same 6++ but also get +1 S. Or take an extra squad of boyz, which is both more useful tactically AND will be more durable than a 6++ will add to boyz.
If you're taking it to protect kans or dreads, you can buy 2 more kans (10 wounds) or 1 more dread (8 wounds).
Any vehicles you can essentially buy another vehicle for those points, which is an increase in firepower AND 8(?) extra wounds AND he will only keep up with them on turn 1.
The only thing I would consider is taking a MA mek with KFF, it is 30 points more, but specifically to take dead shiny shoota if you otherwise only have named characters and no good choice for relic.

TLDR you're paying 85 points for a pathetic 6++ instead of more models/firepower.

sure you can buy ONE more vehicle for that price, but not one more vehicle for everything it protects.

Its nerfed hard, and the new stratagem is made up by a person that hates orks and should not be allowed to make stratagems. But if the majority of your army isnt beast snagga i can may be see use for the KFF still. Mix it up with a FNP aura and you have 6++ and 6+++ adding on top of your Toughness 5.

When the new codex is released and i dont have any beastsnaggas, ill be trying to run my 90 boys Ghaz goff army. Add makari as well because i can for the FNP and painboy cant heal ghaz anymore anyway so feth him.

Maybe it turns out that beastsnagga boys just plow through boys and boys are left in the dirt. I dont know, but also, maybe beast snaggas will be nerfed with time to be less good.

I'm still going to put a KFF on my naut, because it's just 20 points there. A KFF mek though? I'll rather take my chances with smoke cloud to protect my buggies, thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

I think big mek and painboss are the models you are looking for.

true. doing the math here i will probably be going for Big choppas for boys nobs over power klaws.

And there isnt a massive point difference between a 10 man boys group with big choppa (even less with power klaw) and 10 beast snaggas given the power snappa is free.

So if you go for the beast snaggas you wouldnt need to spend points on your KFF. if you are running a horde that is.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm still going to put a KFF on my naut, because it's just 20 points there. A KFF mek though? I'll rather take my chances with smoke cloud to protect my buggies, thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

I think big mek and painboss are the models you are looking for.

Nope, not looking for leader-level Oddboys, but someone who was a nob+1, a Big Boss who was running a small warband (The kind that'd lead a 500 pt list maybe) or that was scooped up by another warband when the two clashed... one won, and became the Warboss, while the one who lost becomes the #2 guy. A fighter-type … not a healer like a Painboss, not a tech like a Big Mek, but a Big Boss (only now they use that term for a strat, which leaves me needing a new name here and "Sub Boss" doesn't quite fit.)

Every Megatron needs a Starscream.

Orks get to be a very powerful shooty fast attack spam army. Freeboota buggy spam is gona be nuts. The good part with freebootas is that they have a +1 ld trait that allows to run squadrons of buggies more freely. 2 buggies with ld7 will not roll for morale unless they face an opponent that lowers their ld - which is not too common. Sure, this buggies will have to stick 6" Close to him, but you don't want your speed waagh shorter to be sniped out, do you?
Another thing with freebootas is their stacking +1 to hit. It will allow to negate the movement penalty for tankbustas or buff lootas to bs4 which is quite good.

I feel that a 3-detachment fast attack army has a potential to rule the tourneys.

Banner Nob sort of serves this position if you big boss strat him. Still not Ideal.
Would also prefer a proper HQ leftanork, maybe a War Chief who represents the bosses best drinking buddy rather than just the nearest rival.

Psychocouac wrote:

Spoiler:

What the F?! For real? We are paying 2 CP to destroy a 30 points equipment now?! What the hell?!

Swiss german has some...

But frankly as a Chaos player i am more confused how a bigmek with forcefield should be in the same ballpark as a Dark apostle... Which is still 5++ within a bubble and can also protect low SV save models just as good... (considering he also has an alternative buff to melle ontop of having a better profile...aswell as being baseline cheaper or only 5 pts more when having some disciples....)
It comparatively looks positively bad. So i don't really understand that logic of why it needed nerfing, even playing against it i never understood, maybee GW wants to sell us painboys but then they would need to be better?

Also on the no Armor debate.I think boyz should be upgradeable into 'ard Boyz, like in the past, but not limited to a SV 4+. But that would make units customizable and can't have that thanks to GW's no models no rules..... which with Commandos orks seemingly got another taste from.

Btw, can you start the game with freeboota lootas from 1 detachment embarked on freeboota wagons from another?

Wakshaani wrote:
Nope, not looking for leader-level Oddboys, but someone who was a nob+1, a Big Boss who was running a small warband (The kind that'd lead a 500 pt list maybe) or that was scooped up by another warband when the two clashed... one won, and became the Warboss, while the one who lost becomes the #2 guy. A fighter-type … not a healer like a Painboss, not a tech like a Big Mek, but a Big Boss (only now they use that term for a strat, which leaves me needing a new name here and "Sub Boss" doesn't quite fit.)

Every Megatron needs a Starscream.

Nob with warbanner? Nob on squig? MANz? Just a warboss that's not your warlord?

Sorry, I really don't think there is any design space left for such a model.

I'm with Jid here, not that I'd hate an extra option but I feel like we're pretty saturated at this point. Orks truly are not the army in need of new kit&options at this point. Pass the torch to one of the other forgotten armies.

I think the normal weirdboy still has some potential as a 2nd HQ as the waaagh discipline has several good powers that you might come to miss otherwise.

The painboss not being able to heal non-beastsnaggas hurts though, as I really like the model and he's overall pretty decent IMO..

Unrelated to the hunt for non-warbosses, which relic do you prefer on the beastboss on squigosaur; Headwoppas Killchoppa or the Beasthide Mantle?

True, the weird boy really is looking good, assuming you can keep him company. Hilariously Da Crunch now works exactly like the psychic power from Belakor's discipline that some posted a few weeks ago with the comment that orks would never get something as good

 Jidmah wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
Nope, not looking for leader-level Oddboys, but someone who was a nob+1, a Big Boss who was running a small warband (The kind that'd lead a 500 pt list maybe) or that was scooped up by another warband when the two clashed... one won, and became the Warboss, while the one who lost becomes the #2 guy. A fighter-type … not a healer like a Painboss, not a tech like a Big Mek, but a Big Boss (only now they use that term for a strat, which leaves me needing a new name here and "Sub Boss" doesn't quite fit.)

Every Megatron needs a Starscream.

Nob with warbanner? Nob on squig? MANz? Just a warboss that's not your warlord?

Sorry, I really don't think there is any design space left for such a model.

Not a warbanner, not on a squig, not necessarily a Mega Armored Boss (but that could be an optional upgrade) … just a #2 Big Boss whose job it is to go lead in his name (or lead a smaller force) like a marine LT.

For instance, you might have a Blood Axe warboss who was Kunnin' as it gets, with his thinkin' cap and master plan, but also have a big, bulked-up #2 who he'd send out to crush heads up close and personal while he, himself, hung back. Not very Gorky, but Mork would approve!

Alternately, you could have a big ol' Goff warboss in front, takin' heads and claimin' trophies, but his #2 was back with the Shootas and Lootas, directing supporting fire because he just loved the big booms and loud dakka more than thumpin'.

Make 'em about half the cost of a Warboss, give them a minor support aura, and they're a great spot to park relics, warlord traits, and so on.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm still going to put a KFF on my naut, because it's just 20 points there. A KFF mek though? I'll rather take my chances with smoke cloud to protect my buggies, thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

I think big mek and painboss are the models you are looking for.

I see 30 points for the morkanaut KFF, both on the codex point section, and on the app leak. Where do you get 20 points ? It certainly is not worth more than 20 but...

PiñaColada wrote:
Unrelated to the hunt for non-warbosses, which relic do you prefer on the beastboss on squigosaur; Headwoppas Killchoppa or the Beasthide Mantle?

Difficult, but probably the mantle, along with the Big Killa Boss trait. I'm probably going to give both relics a try, but right now I think having the boss stick around longer is more important than getting better wound rolls vs high toughness targets. With just his basic loadout he is already pretty well fit for rampaging through elite infantry and the killchoppa adds little to that and reduces the attacks by one. However, it does make it way better at killing vehicles or monsters, so if that's what you're looking for...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:
I see 30 points for the morkanaut KFF, both on the codex point section, and on the app leak. Where do you get 20 points ? It certainly is not worth more than 20 but...

You're right, I was going by 8th edition points. Still worth it IMO. I only need the KFF for turn one anyways, so it doesn't really matter whether it burns out - if the naut is alive in T2 at all

Yeah, the relic choice probably comes down to what you need the HQ to do in the list, so it's up in the air. I still think I may slightly prefer the Killchoppa even though you lose an attack and some durability. He's still pretty durable without the Mantle and the Killchoppa makes him more effective against even tougher targets, which might help out in a TAC sense..?

30 points for the KFF is probably worth it on the Morkanaut, due to its large base and dire need of an invuln but I'm more questioning if the naut itself is worth its expensive barrier of entry..

have you guys seen the statistics for the Wurrboy? I have been completely unable to find him. So i dont know how his statistics are different from a normal weirdboy.
Edit:
Nvm ive found him

Yeah, he's in this leak:
https://imgur.com/a/GI7nqNO

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, the relic choice probably comes down to what you need the HQ to do in the list, so it's up in the air. I still think I may slightly prefer the Killchoppa even though you lose an attack and some durability. He's still pretty durable without the Mantle and the Killchoppa makes him more effective against even tougher targets, which might help out in a TAC sense..?

The way I see it, you are more likely to meet and army that doesn't have a T7+ unit than an army that has elite infantry.
YMMV though, and the two relics are definitely very close to each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
30 points for the KFF is probably worth it on the Morkanaut, due to its large base and dire need of an invuln but I'm more questioning if the naut itself is worth its expensive barrier of entry..

My main gripe with it is eating up another detachment. With stratagems looking as they are, I feel like I want to spend 5CP to run spearhead+patrol+patrol to max out my warbosses, buggies and trukkboyz.

The list I suspect I will be bringing Saturday, unless someone with a better Finkin Kap gives me a better idea !
Any thoughts ? Do you spot any errors in the list ? I initially thought about bringing 3*1 mek gunz instead of one the kannonwagons, but they trigger the "kill more" secondary a little too easily. But I am unsure... Also I have never tried kanonwagons yet, so I figured I might as well now, as they combo quite well with speedwaagh. This list may use the waagh or the speedwaagh, depending on the situation.



Thanks in advance for any Orkput you fellas might provide. Waaagh to all ya gitz

Did anyone else notice that warbikers went down to 9 models maximum?

Cool looking list. I'm running along the assumption that I'll be popping my kff T1/2 for that 5++ so imo maybe be kitting the mega armoured big mek out with a powerklaw and upgrading to the killa klaw will means he's not completely useless. Maybe give your bikerboss the headchoppa then.

I know the interaction with specialist mpbs and transport is broken atm but a blood axe trukk Boyz nob squad loaded on a blood axe trukk could combo well with their warlord trait which would allow them to reposition the trukk after finding out who is going T1.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I probably won't ever even attempt to take the "Green tide" secondary. As a mechanised player it's probably down to bikes and nobz when it comes to units I'd run at 11+ models on the field (so tankbustas in transports are excluded). Nobz are 5-10 models and ammo runts don't count as models anymore and bikes max out at 9, so that secondary is out.

Overall though, I don't think bikes maxing out at 9 rather than 12 is a huge deal. Would I have liked the option for a 12 man squad? Sure, but 9 is still pretty beefy and normal warbikers were never the best target for warpath anyways..

Does anybody know if we kept the regular Big Mek with KFF? Or did we only get to keep the Mega Armoued version?

With the new Codex, I will try to make a mechanized Evil Sunz list work again.

There are some obvious HQ and Fast attack options, namely Warboss on Warbike, Scrapjets, Warbikers and Stormboyz.

Now the question is, what to field in the transports?
MANz in Trukks?
Nobz in Trukks?
Boyz in Battlewagons?
Shootaboyz in Trukks?
Tankbustas in a Trukk?
Maybe a Weirdboy as a supporting character?

3x tankbustas with D6 mortal wound tankhammers start looking a bit interesting.

 Bonde wrote:
Does anybody know if we kept the regular Big Mek with KFF? Or did we only get to keep the Mega Armoued version?

We kept the normal KFF mek, but in all honesty the Mega Mek is still probably the better choice.

Hum, can anyone point me to rules that prevent units in super-heavy aux detachments from gaining cultures?

I'm having a discussion about this right now, but I can't find anything outside the specialist mob rules.

Have you looked in the core rulebook detachment rules?

CaptainO wrote:
Cool looking list. I'm running along the assumption that I'll be popping my kff T1/2 for that 5++ so imo maybe be kitting the mega armoured big mek out with a powerklaw and upgrading to the killa klaw will means he's not completely useless. Maybe give your bikerboss the headchoppa then.

I know the interaction with specialist mpbs and transport is broken atm but a blood axe trukk Boyz nob squad loaded on a blood axe trukk could combo well with their warlord trait which would allow them to reposition the trukk after finding out who is going T1.

Thanks !
Unfortunately the biker boss can only take a saw or a klaw, no big choppa. Apprently he doesn't know how to do good drive by krumpin with them big choppas, the git !

This blood axe warlord trait enable us to reposition at the end of the Deploy armies/forces step, which, in the rules book and in chapter approved, is said to end before determining/rolling for who takes first turn. I know ultrasmurfs can redeploy after knowing who will get first turn, but there strat is worded differently:
-> "Rapid Redeployment – 2CP At the start of the first round before the first turn, you can redeploy up to 3 Ultramarines units."

So basically blood axes don't match Ultrasmurfs in terms of redeploy skills, as bloodaxes redeploy before knowing who has first turn, and so is useful only in the sense that you know where your opponent has set up his/her units. Not worth it IMHO, but if we had the ultramarine thing it would totally be worth it :(

Thanks for your orkput !

Here is my final bullet point fix list for this codex. I know this is a large list, but there is a lot of bad design issues with this book. Just restrictions on top of restrictions with little thought on how its playable I can’t believe this got through playtesting without major feedback. Feel free to edit it as you see fit and email GW. 40kfaq@gwplc.com


I have some major concerns with the current ork codex including some features that are just broken with how they don’t work. Also the way This codex is constrained by artificial limits on detachment and army builds. It literally prevents us from building viable lists…using some of the rules.

The limit on 1 warboss per detachment. You already have mozgrod, badrukk, warboss, warboss on bike, warboss in mega, beast boss, beast boss on squighound, deffkilla wartrike, (and technically ghaz but he gets his own detachment) as HQ/warbossses that can never be in the same detachment together. It’s a pain to build a list and have enough non clan locked HQs. I’d seriously recommend making beastsnagga beastboss equivilant to a warlord without the warlord tag that limits them. So we could have warboss, speedboss, beastboss as the 3x HQ keyword tags with all 3x being able to waaagh. I’d also remove the warlord tag from badrukk when he is allowed to be taken in any detachment. In reality this only limits him to freebooter detachments or just really broken detachments that has a warlord with 2 clans…..the flip side is ghaz must be your warlord and included in a super command detachment. Since clan relics and clan specific strats are tied to your warlord. If ghaz is included with a main detachment from any clan other then goff he can’t use either clan specific relic or strat!

Talking about lack of usable HQ choices I’m not sure what the point of making painboss aura being snagga locked adds to the ork codex? It just artificially limits another HQ. My point is between clan specific HQs, beastsnagga only HQs, and the majority of HQs being a warboss keyword model you’ve made the HQ section a huge issue in list building.

Limiting each kustom jobs into a single model unit. As limited as detachment slots are why even have the limit to a single model unit.. just leave it as a single model in that unit or the entire unit gets the kustom job as long as we pay the point cost for each model.. neither of those options are broken and doesn’t artificially limit the army list and make filling a detachment a pain.

Specialist Mobs lose their clan; keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the clan keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule? You need to make subkulture replace kulture NOT clan… Furthermore why is specialist limited to 1 per detachment. You are forcing players to take multiple detachments now. At worst you should allow one specialist/subkulture per detachment and allow the player to make both boy squad troops into trukk boys.

You nerfed Gretchin even more. Even your new zodgrod named won’t make the superrunts useful. Worst still you made most Gretchin units like killakans subpar since they are not able to use kultures. Even if you allowed Gretchin to have kultures this will only make units such as mekguns and killakans playable (not even that strong). Outside of reducing the price of a Gretchin unit to 4ppm I’m not sure how you can make that unit playable it’s just bad right now. Maybe zodgrod can make his superrunts objective secured as well?

Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?

In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. this should allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons as well.

Talking about weakest kulturs bloodaxe is just bad.. the 18in cover needs to be 12in. I think this is universally considered the worst kulture by far and it was already considered bad in the 8th Ed codex.

All the +1 to hit abilities that don’t stack. You need to fix this it’s insane. Almost every buff is a +1 to hit and you capped this to -1/+1. Here is just a list off the top of my head.

All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
I might have missed a few in there too.. personally I think snaggaboys should get +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters. They already have several ways to get +1 to hit.

The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). these abilities should modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons.

the Waagh banner should be changed to +1 to any hit (instead of melee) since a lot of units and auras already are +1 to hit in melee and add reroll failed morale tests. You kind of busted using units larger then 10+ now because of morale issues. Maybe give him the “option” to take a powerklaw or give him cybork body (5++) since half his body is literally cybork. Basically the Waagh banner is redundant and fairly useless and overpriced.

Ere we go not rolling either or both die. This small change helps orks get into melee and has been one of the main reasons orks were a slightly more reliable assault army.

Tankbustas not being allowed to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty to hit..I’m not exactly sure why this unit is being made harder to transport or teleport or use. It was already nerfed with the reroll to hit changed to +1 to hit on vehicles only. Basically allow them to move and fire again. I don’t care if it’s a special rule added or if battlewagons are allowed to transport units without counting as the unit moving. The battlewagon change itself would help several bad units such as lootas as well.

There is also a bunch of strats that make no sense at 2cp like breaking heads costing 2cp when the generic auto pass morale is already 2cp and does not cause Mortal wounds. I’m sure people have a list of strats that need to be reduced in cost from 2cp to 1cp and even then it’s not likely to fix some of them from being useful. Another example is the kff strat that cost 2cp? For a single turn once per game ability to increase your 30pt equipment upgrade from 6++ to 5++ and on top of that destroys it for the rest of the game.. at 2cp it was a once a game first turn alpha strike protection but the removing the 6++ portion for the rest of game makes the 30pt upgrade worthless and most times the unit carrying it big Mek on foot for example has zero reason to be on the board. This should be a 0cp strat that removes the item from game or a 2cp strat that doesn’t remove the item. This is just another unnecessary restriction placed on ork lists.

All the clan specific psychic powers from saga of the beast have disappeared. Are these no longer valid from this fairly recent book?

da ded shiny shoota should be able to replace a characters' big shoota and shoota as well as kustom shoota. Otherwise the options to use this are real slim.

Why is the power stabbas Paying 5 points to lose out on an extra attack and gain a singular point of AP seems like a horrible trade (vs choppas) or them being more expensive than big choppas even though they're vastly inferior weapons?

Why are rokkits listed as 15 points instead of the normal 10pts for killakans. You already neutered Gretchin units enough.

The Morkanaut and gorknaut are barely playable as a superheavy.. the fact they no longer benefit from any kustom jobs, kultures, etc and are relegated to the superheavy auxiliary detachment places them in the useless territory. I’m not sure how to fix this unless you allow clan benefits and kustom jobs on the SH auxiliary and even then I’m not sure they are worth playing.

You can add that the blood axe redeploy trait is a lot worse than the ultrasmurf strat, and by virtue of the All Mighty Rule of Power Creep, we should be getting better than them, not worse !!!

So do we have a list of what is core and what is not?
I know deffdread isn't but that's about it appart from the obvious

gungo wrote:
Here is my final bullet point fix list for this codex. Feel free to edit it as you see fit and email GW. 40kfaq@gwplc.com

Spoiler:

I have some major concerns with the current ork codex including some features that are just broken with how they don’t work. Also the way This codex is constrained by artificial limits on detachment and army builds. It literally prevents us from building viable lists…using some of the rules.

The limit on 1 warboss per detachment. You already have mozgrod, badrukk, warboss, warboss on bike, warboss in mega, beast boss, beast boss on squighound, deffkilla wartrike, (and technically ghaz but he gets his own detachment) as HQ/warbossses that can never be in the same detachment together. It’s a pain to build a list and have enough non clan locked HQs. I’d seriously recommend making beastsnagga beastboss equivilant to a warlord without the warlord tag that limits them. So we could have warboss, speedwagon, beastboss as the 3x HQ keyword tags with all 3x being able to waaagh. I’d also remove the warlord tag from badrukk when he is allowed to be taken in any detachment. In reality this only limits him to freebooter detachments or just really broken detachments that has a warlord with 2 clans…..the flip side is ghaz must be your warlord and included in a super command detachment. Since clan relics and clan specific strats are tied to your warlord. If ghaz is included with a main detachment from any clan other then goff he can’t use either clan specific relic or strat!

Limiting each kustom jobs into a single model unit. As limited as detachment slots are why even have the limit to a single model unit.. just leave it as a single model in that unit or the entire unit gets the kustom job as long as we pay the point cost for each model.. neither of those options are broken and doesn’t artificially limit the army list and make filling a detachment a pain.

Specialist Mobs lose their clan; keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the clan keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule? You need to make subkulture replace kulture NOT clan… Furthermore why is specialist limited to 1 per detachment. You are forcing players to take multiple detachments now. At worst you should allow one specialist/subkulture per detachment and allow the player to make both boy squad troops into trukk boys.

You nerfed Gretchin even more. Even your new zodgrod named won’t make the superrunts useful. Worst still you made most Gretchin units like killakans subpar since they are not able to use kultures. Even if you allowed Gretchin to have kultures this will only make units such as mekguns and killakans playable (not even that strong). Outside of reducing the price of a Gretchin unit to 4ppm I’m not sure how you can make that unit playable it’s just bad right now. Maybe zodgrod can make his superrunts objective secured as well?

Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?

In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. this should allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons as well.

Talking about weakest kulturs bloodaxe is just bad.. the 18in cover needs to be 12in. I think this is universally considered the worst kulture by far and it was already considered bad in the 8th Ed codex.

All the +1 to hit abilities that don’t stack. You need to fix this it’s insane. Almost every buff is a +1 to hit and you capped this to -1/+1. Here is just a list off the top of my head.

All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
I might have missed a few in there too.. personally I think snaggaboys should get +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters. They already have several ways to get +1 to hit.

The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). these abilities should modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons.

the Waagh banner should be changed to +1 to any hit (instead of melee) since a lot of units and auras already are +1 to hit in melee and add reroll failed morale tests. You kind of busted using units larger then 10+ now because of morale issues. Maybe give him the “option” to take a powerklaw or give him cybork body (5++) since half his body is literally cybork. Basically the Waagh banner is redundant and fairly useless and overpriced.

Ere we go not rolling either or both die. This small change helps orks get into melee and has been one of the main reasons orks were a slightly more reliable assault army.

Tankbustas not being allowed to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty to hit..I’m not exactly sure why this unit is being made harder to transport or teleport or use. It was already nerfed with the reroll to hit changed to +1 to hit on vehicles only. Basically allow them to move and fire again. I don’t care if it’s a special rule added or if battlewagons are allowed to transport units without counting as the unit moving. The battlewagon change itself would help several bad units such as lootas as well.

There is also a bunch of strats that make no sense at 2cp like breaking heads costing 2cp when the generic auto pass morale is already 2cp and does not cause Mortal wounds. I’m sure people have a list of strats that need to be reduced in cost from 2cp to 1cp and even then it’s not likely to fix some of them from being useful. Another example is the kff strat that cost 2cp? For a single turn once per game ability to increase your 30pt equipment upgrade from 6++ to 5++ and on top of that destroys it for the rest of the game.. at 2cp it was a once a game first turn alpha strike protection but the removing the 6++ portion for the rest of game makes the 30pt upgrade worthless and most times the unit carrying it big Mek on foot for example has zero reason to be on the board. This should be a 0cp strat that removes the item from game or a 2cp strat that doesn’t remove the item. This is just another unnecessary restriction placed on ork lists.

All the clan specific psychic powers from saga of the beast have disappeared. Are these no longer valid from this fairly recent book?

da ded shiny shoota should be able to replace a characters' big shoota and shoota as well as kustom shoota. Otherwise the options to use this are real slim.

Why is the power stabbas Paying 5 points to lose out on an extra attack and gain a singular point of AP seems like a horrible trade (vs choppas) or them being more expensive than big choppas even though they're vastly inferior weapons?

Why are rokkits listed as 15 points instead of the normal 10pts for killakans. You already neutered Gretchin units enough.

The Morkanaut and gorknaut are barely playable as a superheavy.. the fact they no longer benefit from any kustom jobs, kultures, etc and are relegated to the superheavy auxiliary detachment places them in the useless territory. I’m not sure how to fix this unless you allow clan benefits and kustom jobs on the SH auxiliary and even then I’m not sure they are worth playing.

Personally, I would ditch everything not related to unclear rules or potential errors. They are not going to re-write the codex in a FAQ, and it's just more likely that they won't react to the email at all. But feel free to do as you feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor-boom wrote:
So do we have a list of what is core and what is not?
I know deffdread isn't but that's about it appart from the obvious

Essentially everything infantry, bike or cavalry that is not a character got CORE. Out of the "maybes" neither koptas nor walkers got it.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
Here is my final bullet point fix list for this codex. Feel free to edit it as you see fit and email GW. 40kfaq@gwplc.com

Spoiler:

I have some major concerns with the current ork codex including some features that are just broken with how they don’t work. Also the way This codex is constrained by artificial limits on detachment and army builds. It literally prevents us from building viable lists…using some of the rules.

The limit on 1 warboss per detachment. You already have mozgrod, badrukk, warboss, warboss on bike, warboss in mega, beast boss, beast boss on squighound, deffkilla wartrike, (and technically ghaz but he gets his own detachment) as HQ/warbossses that can never be in the same detachment together. It’s a pain to build a list and have enough non clan locked HQs. I’d seriously recommend making beastsnagga beastboss equivilant to a warlord without the warlord tag that limits them. So we could have warboss, speedwagon, beastboss as the 3x HQ keyword tags with all 3x being able to waaagh. I’d also remove the warlord tag from badrukk when he is allowed to be taken in any detachment. In reality this only limits him to freebooter detachments or just really broken detachments that has a warlord with 2 clans…..the flip side is ghaz must be your warlord and included in a super command detachment. Since clan relics and clan specific strats are tied to your warlord. If ghaz is included with a main detachment from any clan other then goff he can’t use either clan specific relic or strat!

Limiting each kustom jobs into a single model unit. As limited as detachment slots are why even have the limit to a single model unit.. just leave it as a single model in that unit or the entire unit gets the kustom job as long as we pay the point cost for each model.. neither of those options are broken and doesn’t artificially limit the army list and make filling a detachment a pain.

Specialist Mobs lose their clan; keyword in exchange for the Specialist Mobs keyword. This disallows them from benefitting from psychic powers, aura abilities, and critically embarking within transports. Given that Trukk Boyz' rules appear to revolve around being in transports, is this unintended, and instead Specialist Mobs units should retain the clan keyword but be exempted from benefitting from the Kultur rule? You need to make subkulture replace kulture NOT clan… Furthermore why is specialist limited to 1 per detachment. You are forcing players to take multiple detachments now. At worst you should allow one specialist/subkulture per detachment and allow the player to make both boy squad troops into trukk boys.

You nerfed Gretchin even more. Even your new zodgrod named won’t make the superrunts useful. Worst still you made most Gretchin units like killakans subpar since they are not able to use kultures. Even if you allowed Gretchin to have kultures this will only make units such as mekguns and killakans playable (not even that strong). Outside of reducing the price of a Gretchin unit to 4ppm I’m not sure how you can make that unit playable it’s just bad right now. Maybe zodgrod can make his superrunts objective secured as well?

Speedwaaagh allows ORK VEHICLE keyword units to fire an additional shot with Dakka weapons and gain an additional point of AP. In 'rare rules 9' if a TRANSPORT keyword model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks, the same modifier applies to embarked models. Do models embarked inside ORK VEHICLE keyword models also fire additional shots with Dakka weapons and gain additional points of AP while a Speedwaagh is in effect?

In the Speedwaagh and Evil Sunz kultur rules, models being able to advance and fire assault weapons without penalty is a listed benefit. In the entirety of Codex: Orks, there are only a small handful of assault weapons that do not hit automatically (Kustom Mega Blastas, Squig Launchas, Scorcha Missiles, etc) and there is no unit that can be armed only with Assault weapons. this should allow units to Advance and shoot with Dakka weapons as well.

Talking about weakest kulturs bloodaxe is just bad.. the 18in cover needs to be 12in. I think this is universally considered the worst kulture by far and it was already considered bad in the 8th Ed codex.

All the +1 to hit abilities that don’t stack. You need to fix this it’s insane. Almost every buff is a +1 to hit and you capped this to -1/+1. Here is just a list off the top of my head.

All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
I might have missed a few in there too.. personally I think snaggaboys should get +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters. They already have several ways to get +1 to hit.

The ability "Grot Gunner and Targetin' Squig" on the Shokkjump Dragsta modifies the ballistic skill of the model when firing certain ranged weapons. However, other models with similar abilities (Gitfinda squig on Flash Gitz, Grot Gunner on several models, Tank Hunters on Tankbustas) add +1 to hit rolls when using certain weapons, which in 9th edition is capped at +1/-1 and therefore would not allow them to be used in conjunction with other abilities (e.g. the Freebootas clan kultur). these abilities should modify Ballistic skill instead when firing those weapons.

the Waagh banner should be changed to +1 to any hit (instead of melee) since a lot of units and auras already are +1 to hit in melee and add reroll failed morale tests. You kind of busted using units larger then 10+ now because of morale issues. Maybe give him the “option” to take a powerklaw or give him cybork body (5++) since half his body is literally cybork. Basically the Waagh banner is redundant and fairly useless and overpriced.

Ere we go not rolling either or both die. This small change helps orks get into melee and has been one of the main reasons orks were a slightly more reliable assault army.

Tankbustas not being allowed to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty to hit..I’m not exactly sure why this unit is being made harder to transport or teleport or use. It was already nerfed with the reroll to hit changed to +1 to hit on vehicles only. Basically allow them to move and fire again. I don’t care if it’s a special rule added or if battlewagons are allowed to transport units without counting as the unit moving. The battlewagon change itself would help several bad units such as lootas as well.

There is also a bunch of strats that make no sense at 2cp like breaking heads costing 2cp when the generic auto pass morale is already 2cp and does not cause Mortal wounds. I’m sure people have a list of strats that need to be reduced in cost from 2cp to 1cp and even then it’s not likely to fix some of them from being useful. Another example is the kff strat that cost 2cp? For a single turn once per game ability to increase your 30pt equipment upgrade from 6++ to 5++ and on top of that destroys it for the rest of the game.. at 2cp it was a once a game first turn alpha strike protection but the removing the 6++ portion for the rest of game makes the 30pt upgrade worthless and most times the unit carrying it big Mek on foot for example has zero reason to be on the board. This should be a 0cp strat that removes the item from game or a 2cp strat that doesn’t remove the item. This is just another unnecessary restriction placed on ork lists.

All the clan specific psychic powers from saga of the beast have disappeared. Are these no longer valid from this fairly recent book?

da ded shiny shoota should be able to replace a characters' big shoota and shoota as well as kustom shoota. Otherwise the options to use this are real slim.

Why is the power stabbas Paying 5 points to lose out on an extra attack and gain a singular point of AP seems like a horrible trade (vs choppas) or them being more expensive than big choppas even though they're vastly inferior weapons?

Why are rokkits listed as 15 points instead of the normal 10pts for killakans. You already neutered Gretchin units enough.

The Morkanaut and gorknaut are barely playable as a superheavy.. the fact they no longer benefit from any kustom jobs, kultures, etc and are relegated to the superheavy auxiliary detachment places them in the useless territory. I’m not sure how to fix this unless you allow clan benefits and kustom jobs on the SH auxiliary and even then I’m not sure they are worth playing.

Personally, I would ditch everything not related to unclear rules or potential errors. They are not going to re-write the codex in a FAQ, and it's just more likely that they won't react to the email at all. But feel free to do as you feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor-boom wrote:
So do we have a list of what is core and what is not?
I know deffdread isn't but that's about it appart from the obvious

Essentially everything infantry, bike or cavalry that is not a character got CORE. Out of the "maybes" neither koptas nor walkers got it.

If I removed everything but broken issues it would just be specialist subkulture is broken…and maybe Powa Stabba is the wrong points cost. That hardly fixes this codex. I’m fairly certain the specialist subculture will get fixed regardless since it’s so obviously broken.. So i have nothing to lose by feedbacking about a badly designed codex.

Would you rather get a targetted fix for some things, or write a novel that the GW intern will take one look at, then read the next email instead.

Perhaps send two separate emails. One with the realistic changes to fix clear errors, and another about the overall quality of the codex.
You need to keep it short and sweet, but respectful (but by all means be disappointed).

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Would you rather get a targetted fix for some things, or write a novel that the GW intern will take one look at, then read the next email instead.

Perhaps send two separate emails. One with the realistic changes to fix clear errors, and another about the overall quality of the codex.
You need to keep it short and sweet, but respectful (but by all means be disappointed).

The only thing I think they will fix is specialist subkultures. The rest is just bad designs and artfilical limitations added into the codex that serve no purpose but to make list building harder or unit options worse.

My point is outside of the specialist detachment everything else works… that’s the only clear error

I also think it makes sense to address the RAW rules that do not make sense, and make the mail short and to the point.

Feel free to feedback the specialist detachment that’s the only thing that does not make sense.. The rest of it is just poor design.

They will fix the specialist detachment issue but if you say nothing else about all the other design issues then don’t expect anything to change.

 addnid wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Cool looking list. I'm running along the assumption that I'll be popping my kff T1/2 for that 5++ so imo maybe be kitting the mega armoured big mek out with a powerklaw and upgrading to the killa klaw will means he's not completely useless. Maybe give your bikerboss the headchoppa then.

I know the interaction with specialist mpbs and transport is broken atm but a blood axe trukk Boyz nob squad loaded on a blood axe trukk could combo well with their warlord trait which would allow them to reposition the trukk after finding out who is going T1.

Thanks !
Unfortunately the biker boss can only take a saw or a klaw, no big choppa. Apprently he doesn't know how to do good drive by krumpin with them big choppas, the git !

He can, though? He starts with a saw, and can exchange it for a klaw or a big choppa.

Madjob wrote:

 addnid wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Cool looking list. I'm running along the assumption that I'll be popping my kff T1/2 for that 5++ so imo maybe be kitting the mega armoured big mek out with a powerklaw and upgrading to the killa klaw will means he's not completely useless. Maybe give your bikerboss the headchoppa then.

I know the interaction with specialist mpbs and transport is broken atm but a blood axe trukk Boyz nob squad loaded on a blood axe trukk could combo well with their warlord trait which would allow them to reposition the trukk after finding out who is going T1.

Thanks !
Unfortunately the biker boss can only take a saw or a klaw, no big choppa. Apprently he doesn't know how to do good drive by krumpin with them big choppas, the git !

He can, though? He starts with a saw, and can exchange it for a klaw or a big choppa.

Ah yes you are right ! But I think I want the speedboss to be able to deliver damage 3 (with 14 movement it can deliver it more easily than the big mek). The big mek wants da shiny shooter anyway.
So he can get a big choppa, but mine won't anyway

guys please do correct me if im mistaken, but if the Speed waaagh gives -1 better AP bonus on their ranged attacks, the vehicles, would that mean the infantry sitting inside the vehicles receive the same buff?

I would assume thats a modifier, and any modifier given to the vehicle is given to its occupants?

And does the same thing apply for the +1 to dakka weapon attacks?

So a squad of shoota boys in a wagon would get +1 to dakka weapon shots and -1 AP when the speed waaagh is activated?

Personally I don't think those are modifiers to the attack, it's a modifier to the weapon they're holding which isn't the same thing.

Also thematically I think it makes no sense either.

It's definitely ambiguous though and I hope gets clarification.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Personally I don't think those are modifiers to the attack, it's a modifier to the weapon they're holding which isn't the same thing.

Also thematically I think it makes no sense either.

It's definitely ambiguous though and I hope gets clarification.

They are not modifiers, hence they do not apply

So is my first take on creating an army with the new codex:



Not sure if this is actually any good, but it sure as heck will be fun to play. It's surprising how much stuff you can fit into the army now hat buggies have gotten so cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Have you looked in the core rulebook detachment rules?

Yes, it has no restrictions nor benefits. If I remember correctly "no cultures" came from the ork codex itself, and that blurb is missing from the new one.

Love that list Jidmah!

I think I will probably try something very similar, probably drop the KBB and 3 bikes and fit in a Burna Bomber.

That's mostly due to models and my love of Ork planes though!

May try and squeeze in my wazbomb as well!

 addnid wrote:
The list I suspect I will be bringing Saturday, unless someone with a better Finkin Kap gives me a better idea !
Any thoughts ? Do you spot any errors in the list ? I initially thought about bringing 3*1 mek gunz instead of one the kannonwagons, but they trigger the "kill more" secondary a little too easily. But I am unsure... Also I have never tried kanonwagons yet, so I figured I might as well now, as they combo quite well with speedwaagh. This list may use the waagh or the speedwaagh, depending on the situation.

Spoiler:

Goff battalion
HQ
Warboss Mega armour (115) relic Cybork body Wltrait Brutal but Kunning 115
Big mek mega armour (85) Kustom Force Field 30 Extra Relic da dead shiny shoota 115
Elite
15 Kommandos (150) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 165
14 Kommandos (140) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 155
14 Kommandos (140) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 155
Troops
10 boyz 90
10 boyz 90
10 boyz 90
total detachment: 975

Deathskulls outrider
HQ
Warboss on bike (115) Extra Relic da killa klaw extra Wltrait Junkboss 115
Fast attack
15 Stormboyz (165) big choppa 5 170
15 Stormboyz 165
5 Stormboyz 55
Rukkatrukk Sguigbuggy 90
Rukkatrukk Sguigbuggy 90
Heavy support
Kannonwagon (170) 3 big shootas 0 170
Kannonwagon (170) 3 big shootas 0 170
total detachment: 1025

ARMY TOTAL: 2000 ; CP to start the game: 6

Thanks in advance for any Orkput you fellas might provide. Waaagh to all ya gitz

One issue I see is stormboyz nobz can't take big choppas. They only get a powerklaw as an option.

So like, I’m just zogged that all our stuff was brought in line with marines, but of course made worse than em. Ere we go nerf, dakka becoming gak rapid fire, and ammo runts to name a few. Orks just lost a lot of the fun we had with the 8th dex I think. Also, boyz are less durable per point now, boyz with kff are just as durable as before (actually less durable against lasguns) but now 1 ppm more and kff costs more. I wish we stayed t4, we flew too close to the sun.

Tremble wrote:
Love that list Jidmah!

I think I will probably try something very similar, probably drop the KBB and 3 bikes and fit in a Burna Bomber.

That's mostly due to models and my love of Ork planes though!

May try and squeeze in my wazbomb as well!

Yeah, you could easily switch the large FA block around to fit your favorite models. Right now I have added one of buggy mostly because I want to find out which ones are worth it and which ones are not. I'm not even that sold on the third unit of trukkboyz, so you might save points there but just running 'orrible lads or a unit of shoota boyz with a rokkit.

Putting beastsnaggas in a separate snakebite detachment seems like a no-brainer though. +1 to wound is just too powerful and deny the witch for 1 CP is nothing to sneeze at.

Jidmah wrote:
Putting beastsnaggas in a separate snakebite detachment seems like a no-brainer though. +1 to wound is just too powerful and deny the witch for 1 CP is nothing to sneeze at.

Wouldn't you need warlord to be snakebites?

 Lysit wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
Putting beastsnaggas in a separate snakebite detachment seems like a no-brainer though. +1 to wound is just too powerful and deny the witch for 1 CP is nothing to sneeze at.

Wouldn't you need warlord to be snakebites?

Ah, drat, you're right. +1 to wound still beats one re-roll easily, especially since all of them have medium strength.

But this makes goff look like a good option for them as well... hum.

Please note, warbiker nob can only take one weapon. He doesn't get PK/Choppa, he can only take one.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 addnid wrote:
The list I suspect I will be bringing Saturday, unless someone with a better Finkin Kap gives me a better idea !
Any thoughts ? Do you spot any errors in the list ? I initially thought about bringing 3*1 mek gunz instead of one the kannonwagons, but they trigger the "kill more" secondary a little too easily. But I am unsure... Also I have never tried kanonwagons yet, so I figured I might as well now, as they combo quite well with speedwaagh. This list may use the waagh or the speedwaagh, depending on the situation.

Spoiler:

Goff battalion
HQ
Warboss Mega armour (115) relic Cybork body Wltrait Brutal but Kunning 115
Big mek mega armour (85) Kustom Force Field 30 Extra Relic da dead shiny shoota 115
Elite
15 Kommandos (150) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 165
14 Kommandos (140) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 155
14 Kommandos (140) Pklaw 5 distraction grot 10 155
Troops
10 boyz 90
10 boyz 90
10 boyz 90
total detachment: 975

Deathskulls outrider
HQ
Warboss on bike (115) Extra Relic da killa klaw extra Wltrait Junkboss 115
Fast attack
15 Stormboyz (165) big choppa 5 170
15 Stormboyz 165
5 Stormboyz 55
Rukkatrukk Sguigbuggy 90
Rukkatrukk Sguigbuggy 90
Heavy support
Kannonwagon (170) 3 big shootas 0 170
Kannonwagon (170) 3 big shootas 0 170
total detachment: 1025

ARMY TOTAL: 2000 ; CP to start the game: 6

Thanks in advance for any Orkput you fellas might provide. Waaagh to all ya gitz

One issue I see is stormboyz nobz can't take big choppas. They only get a powerklaw as an option.

Ah thanks, I will scrap the big choppa and find something else then to spend 5 points on.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Lysit wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
Putting beastsnaggas in a separate snakebite detachment seems like a no-brainer though. +1 to wound is just too powerful and deny the witch for 1 CP is nothing to sneeze at.

Wouldn't you need warlord to be snakebites?

Ah, drat, you're right. +1 to wound still beats one re-roll easily, especially since all of them have medium strength.

But this makes goff look like a good option for them as well... hum.

in a sense for Squig units it still makes sense to do this since Squig units get +1 to wound on the charge, which is pretty dang huge. Kulture benefits arent blocked by warlord, just the strats/relics for some reason.
And they kinda dont benefit that much from other kultures except Goff anyway.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Personally I don't think those are modifiers to the attack, it's a modifier to the weapon they're holding which isn't the same thing.

Also thematically I think it makes no sense either.

It's definitely ambiguous though and I hope gets clarification.

i was just thinking that infantry shooting gets literally zero buff to damage from neither waaagh, so i would assume that it may be correct that infantry in open topped vehicles would shoot with more damage when the speed waaagh happens.

This way infantry like tankbustas, lootas and flash gitz would receive a buff as well. Because right now, they dont get jack gak from any waaagh.

And -1 AP to a vehicle is not a modifier? i would assume it was.

I would have really liked to see a "Dakka Waaagh", it's a shame that they didn't offer anything for that style of play.

Beardedragon wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Personally I don't think those are modifiers to the attack, it's a modifier to the weapon they're holding which isn't the same thing.

Also thematically I think it makes no sense either.

It's definitely ambiguous though and I hope gets clarification.

i was just thinking that infantry shooting gets literally zero buff to damage from neither waaagh, so i would assume that it may be correct that infantry in open topped vehicles would shoot with more damage when the speed waaagh happens.

This way infantry like tankbustas, lootas and flash gitz would receive a buff as well. Because right now, they dont get jack gak from any waaagh

That's my thought as well Beardedragon.

As far as "modifier to attack" vs "modifier to weapon", wow. We're really getting down to the nats ass on things huh? How is it not thematic for a wartrike to call a speedwaagh, a bunch of lootas jump in a trukk and get a bonus to shoot? Sometimes I wonder if people actually believe the things they say on the internet.

modifiers are things that affect your die roll.
AP does not affect YOUR die roll.

Yeah, GW is confusing like that. They tend to act like they precisely define everything and yet they write rules like they assume we know wtf they mean by buzzwords like modifiers.

I dont get whats with GW's issue with transports, across the board but most noticeably in orks they keep screwing transports over.
KFF doesnt work on the vehicle youre embarked on now...for some reason
Still cant fix a vehicle youre in (which would have made spannas somewhat useful)
Auras dont work...for some reason (not even if the aura is inside said vehicle, which doubly makes no sense)
Cant Psyker out of one but can shoot?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
modifiers are things that affect your die roll.
AP does not affect YOUR die roll.

Yeah, GW is confusing like that. They tend to act like they precisely define everything and yet they write rules like they assume we know wtf they mean by buzzwords like modifiers.

I dont get whats with GW's issue with transports, across the board but most noticeably in orks they keep screwing transports over.
KFF doesnt work on the vehicle youre embarked on now...for some reason
Still cant fix a vehicle youre in (which would have made spannas somewhat useful)
Auras dont work...for some reason (not even if the aura is inside said vehicle, which doubly makes no sense)
Cant Psyker out of one but can shoot?

Is that defined somewhere?

I just don't understand how you can call something an army-wide rule if a large portion of the units in your army don't benefit from it. Actually, now that I think about it, tankbustas, burnas, and flash gitz don't benefit from a single one of our army wide rules. I guess lootas do because *dakka weapons*.

thats the issue, its not defined like a big bold section called MODIFIERS: This is what they are.

The closest we got is the MODIFYING CHARACTERISTICS paragraph which doesnt really answer gak

I fall in the camp of: I doubt the bonus will end up transfering to the passengers in trukks, but I certainly understand the ambiguity. I'd ask GW about and hopefully we'll get a ruling one way or another in the first FAQ but until then I wouldn't play as if you get the bonus unless you ask your opponent and they okay it.

In the interim you could shoot an email asking the goonhammer boyz on their take on it to get a public (albeit still completely unofficial ruling).

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/opa4rw/auspex_tactics_ork_codex_review/?$deep_link=true&correlation_id=aa031afa-ffc4-4f1e-b3c2-2c2681a30d2a&post_fullname=t3_opa4rw&post_index=2&ref=email_digest&ref_campaign=email_digest&ref_source=email&utm_content=post_title&$3p=e_as&_branch_match_id=934019428747746691

One of the best video reviews and well informed. He missed the trukk transport issue but we all know it’s going to be fixed.

Alright gang I've got a bit of a 'challenge mode' concept I'd like help on:

What's the best Gretchin Revolooshunary Committee list you can come up with?

I've got a number of 'cheatsies' models that I generally use as various proxies, so we're not entirely limited to gretchin units only. I'll put the model I have, and then what I typically proxy the model as, though I am open to other suggestions.

Proxy Collection:



Official models collection:



typically, the grotvolushun list has used Cheeky Zoggerz paired with Painboyz to make a huge blob of gretchins something that approaches "tough", and have a bunch of gretchins backed up by 30x 'squig' choppa boyz and killa kanz boosted up by a banner nob. The Manglers took the Forktress KJ and the fanatic nobz and Killa Klaw smashboss would ride in that to threaten somewhere off the main front, and then a line of smasha guns would hold the fort on the rear objectives trying to crack open armored targets.

Now...man, it's tough to know where to start. I'm thinking 15-man gretchin blobs so they can be scoring Green Tide, megaboss to call the waagh embarked inside the bonebreaka with the fanatic nobz. Squigs may now be Beast Snagga boyz as Grot Shields is now even better to keep them protected as the anti-infantry teeth of the main horde.

For now, until Grot Tanks get the updated rules for Rokkits, leaving the tanks and megatanks out in favor of Killa Kanz and Mek Gunz seems wise.

Here's my first draft:



Weirdboy with Fists and Warboss and nobz pile in to the Bonebreaka squigs to go off and project their own threat area, Painboy and Runtherd try to keep order in The Grot Zone, stank grots try to get forward and stank up the enemy lines somehow, rest of the grots basically serve as meatshields to deliver the killa kanz/snagga squigs and deff dread. All guns are designed to kill heavy targets as heavy targets are typically what threatens vehicles, usually i go for this as this is kind of a 'deceptive horde list' where I put down a lot of infantry bodies but theyre just generally garbage and the points are actually in the vehicles.

The only thing I can think of is trying to make an orible gitz specialist bomb… if you can find a way to somehow get that unit inside your opponents deployment zone and are able to spread it out to get within 3in of thier units. It makes any unit it’s near have a mass -1 to hit shooting debuff.

I just don’t see any way to make that work in a reasonable manner. It also doesn’t have survivability to last..

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I would have really liked to see a "Dakka Waaagh", it's a shame that they didn't offer anything for that style of play.

So very much this.

It could be as simple as "All Dakka weapons gain +1 shot and -1AP" and then one turn of just half that.

Wouldn't even have to be ALL shooting weapons (tho that'd be nice) but something for the bosses that like hearing the guns blaze more than they like gettin' stuck in.

Ah, for a chance to make a 9.1 version...

Wakshaani wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I would have really liked to see a "Dakka Waaagh", it's a shame that they didn't offer anything for that style of play.

So very much this.

It could be as simple as "All Dakka weapons gain +1 shot and -1AP" and then one turn of just half that.

Wouldn't even have to be ALL shooting weapons (tho that'd be nice) but something for the bosses that like hearing the guns blaze more than they like gettin' stuck in.

Ah, for a chance to make a 9.1 version...

Edit: I see the point now.

no he didnt?
He mentioned everything gets that, not just vehicles/bikers. Which is the issue since a good deal of our dakka is on infantry models.

Wait, you can upgrade only 1 unit per detacment with Specialist mob rule, one of each?


Well there goes that Trukk boy army...

Yup, that is part of the reason almost all of the subkultures are unusuable gak. Either by design (trukkboyz) or by virtue they still technically work but lose out on ALL the possible support that would actually make them do something.

One exception imo is the one for meganobz to get +1 to hit. Just tellyport them, they wont be getting character buffs anyway.

Still though.. it does say that the -AP bonus is given to orks IN an orks vehicle. i would still argue its a weird way of saying just vehicles.

If we went by the idea that "in an orks vehicle" then the vehicles would receive the + to their dakka weapons, and can advance and charge without penalties to assault weapons. Then the shooting infantry that can sit in the vehicles actually get buffs.

Again, that way everyone, vehicle, melee and shooting infantry could one way or the other get buffed.

Maybe im over looking in to things, but i still dont understand why "In an orks vehicle" should not be embarked units rather than the vehicle itself. everyone gets a buff then. I feel like that would be the most sensible things to do. Just over increasing vehicles shooting power and give no gaks about infantry shooting just seem really really weird.

"in an ork vehicle or ork biker UNIT"

vehicles can be units. They would say "embarked" otherwise, since thats the term used for every rule that does affect units in a vehicle.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
"in an ork vehicle or ork biker UNIT"

vehicles can be units. They would say "embarked" otherwise, since thats the term used for every rule that does affect units in a vehicle.

oh yea i see what you're saying.

Dang! i so wanted more buffs to infantry shooting in a waaagh to happen

Buggies are nuts, I think they're getting a nerf soon. They sure are too good for the points.
I guess, it's the backward swing from mellee horde being the way to go in 8.

Something occurs to me about the killchoppa, sorry if it's already been discussed - maybe someone can tell me if I've got this right. You can give it to the squig-riding boss, and also give him brutal but kunning. Any attacks with the squig jaws that don't make it to "inflict damage" can then be rolled again with the killchoppa - including any sixes that inflict mortal wounds, since they inflict mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends before reaching the "inflict damage" step. Same with the killchoppa itself - it inflicts mortal wounds during the wound roll, so if your opponent then saves the rest of the damage with an invul or something you can roll those attacks again, but you still get to inflict your mortal wound, and you get another chance to inflict mortal wounds when you roll your attacks again.

Seems a good way to get a fair number of mortal wounds out of a character in melee.

Nice, Meganobs with 2 killsaws still get their bonus attack and the Dragstas Shokk rifle is still assault and treated as having BS3+.
Also I really like the idea of putting 20 Flash Gits in a battlewaggon.
Too bad the ammo runts don't count as models any more to die first in explosions.
Oh and full chapter master Goff melee rerolls with Ghazzi. Might be cool to reroll all 1-
4 results on a buffed unit to get more 5s and 6s.

And the Crusade rules are really cool. There is a mechanic that characters with more experience as your Warlord must challenge him and they fight in a little mini game against each other for the right to be the Warlord.

Opinions? Maybe another bug…

oh look another "untargetedable unit" issue. Not the first one to pop up and wont be the last, it'll get addressed eventually

 office_waaagh wrote:
Something occurs to me about the killchoppa, sorry if it's already been discussed - maybe someone can tell me if I've got this right. You can give it to the squig-riding boss, and also give him brutal but kunning. Any attacks with the squig jaws that don't make it to "inflict damage" can then be rolled again with the killchoppa - including any sixes that inflict mortal wounds, since they inflict mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends before reaching the "inflict damage" step. Same with the killchoppa itself - it inflicts mortal wounds during the wound roll, so if your opponent then saves the rest of the damage with an invul or something you can roll those attacks again, but you still get to inflict your mortal wound, and you get another chance to inflict mortal wounds when you roll your attacks again.

Seems a good way to get a fair number of mortal wounds out of a character in melee.

The killchoppa does a bonus mortal wound - it doesn't stop the attack sequence. The squig's jaws does, so you would translate a 6 on the squig jaws to a bonus attack with the beast choppa, but that's more I would call 'amusing' than 'something you should actually plan around.'

....Oh, you're saying if you roll a 6 with the kilchoppa you deal the MW and I save the regular wound you then get to swing again.

Yeah, that's decently good. I wonder what the damage numbers look like between BBC/Kilchoppa squigosaur boss (Hey, dakka mods, I've got a new acronym for you to program in pretty please! The people need context!) and named character squiggo mcsharksquig.

 koooaei wrote:
Buggies are nuts, I think they're getting a nerf soon. They sure are too good for the points.
I guess, it's the backward swing from mellee horde being the way to go in 8.

they mostly seem quite good, the biggest issue now is since they can't split up they are unlikely to be able, to take a ton of them. Also of note it looks liek fast attack is our new most effective crowded army spot. hello outrider attachments beside the main one

So what are the killiest units we got in the new codex in regards with points to power? I saw someone say goff boys are killier than snaggas.

Are nobs killier than MANz if you kit them out with beeg_choppa + choppa?

Disregard the vehicles since im not too keen on anything that isnt a trukk, wagon and/or a mek gun.

I want to make the killiest list that deals the most damage and doesnt particularly care about capturing objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
BBC

pepi55 wrote:
So what are the killiest units we got in the new codex in regards with points to power? I saw someone say goff boys are killier than snaggas.

Are nobs killier than MANz if you kit them out with beeg_choppa + choppa?

Disregard the vehicles since im not too keen on anything that isnt a trukk, wagon and/or a mek gun.

I want to make the killiest list that deals the most damage and doesnt particularly care about capturing objectives.

Well, I'll guess goffs are way to go, with exploding sixes in melee and+1 strength in charge mode, Boyz will hit like a truck. The only thing you might want to consider, is the delivery method, storm boys, Warbikers and kommandos are in good spot. Any other infantry unit wants to ride in a transport. As for the characters, Warboss is an auto include for advance and charge, but you may also want weirdboy to cast buffing spells (fists, warpath) and some deny the witch.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm still going to put a KFF on my naut, because it's just 20 points there.

Nope, it's 30.

pepi55 wrote:
So what are the killiest units we got in the new codex in regards with points to power? I saw someone say goff boys are killier than snaggas.

Are nobs killier than MANz if you kit them out with beeg_choppa + choppa?

Disregard the vehicles since im not too keen on anything that isnt a trukk, wagon and/or a mek gun.

I want to make the killiest list that deals the most damage and doesnt particularly care about capturing objectives.

Probably Mozrog with the second best being either the bargain bin squigboss, followed by a warboss with Da Killa Klaw, an attack squig and Brutal But Kunnin'.

Goff Snaggas are marginally killier still, with +1S. S5 in subsequent turns and S6 on the charge, plus S8 on the nob's power snippa.

In ideal scenario goff boyz will be just as killy if not slightly more than snaggas, for 10-15 less points per 10 man unit.

I still think the real power unit in close combat is obviously Beasthog riders. They get 5 S6 AP 2 damage attacks per model for a little more than two snagga boyz and less than 3 boyz, on top of 10" movement speed and tons of ways to increase their lethality further still, e.g. Snakebites or the Beastgob, +1 to hit, etc. Their output is silly even compared to dual killsaw meganobz which require more points per model and more points still for a transport. Is there literally anything in the book that compares to their close combat potential? Other than Mozrog that pairs with them perfectly?

Nobz are killier than meganobz for the some reason that they are cheaper with a klaw. They are obviously vastly less durable and probably less points efficient overall, but point for point nobz with big choppas do out damage meganobz if they have the goff clan trait. You could get 5 nobz with big choppas/choppas for the same cost as 3 meganobz with a single klaw each.

3 Meganobz would put out 3.1 wounds on average with a single PK, whereas nobz would put out an average of 4.1 wounds on average just with the big choppas, with another wound from the choppas at 1 damage. You would get 10 wounds with a 4+ versus 9 wounds behind a 2+.

I'll include my latest build for constructive critique, I wanted to make it fast and deadly, but also score objectives;

 Vineheart01 wrote:


One exception imo is the one for meganobz to get +1 to hit. Just tellyport them, they wont be getting character buffs anyway.

Another exception can be boomboyz. It can enhance a unit of koptas, tellyported or footslogging tankbustas or a gun wagon. Gun wagon with da boomer and boomboyz upgrade looks nice, although a bit expensive in points. Unless playing freebootas (you don't want to lost the klan keyword then) I think improving the AP for those unit is always better than sticking with the klan bonus.

My first attempt to a 2000 points list will be something like that:

 TedNugent wrote:


I still think the real power unit in close combat is obviously Beasthog riders. They get 5 S6 AP 2 damage attacks per model for a little more than two snagga boyz and less than 3 boyz, on top of 10" movement speed and tons of ways to increase their lethality further still, e.g. Snakebites or the Beastgob, +1 to hit, etc. Their output is silly even compared to dual killsaw meganobz which require more points per model and more points still for a transport. Is there literally anything in the book that compares to their close combat potential? Other than Mozrog that pairs with them perfectly?

Goffs Squigsaur w/ Relic choppa, brutal but kunnin, and exploding 5s is probably the hardest hitting thing we have.

 Spreelock wrote:
I'll include my latest build for constructive critique, I wanted to make it fast and deadly, but also score objectives;

Spoiler:

Goffs outriders detachment
-hq- Warboss (kustom shoota, big choppa) 90 (warlord: might is right, relic: headwhoppas killchoppa)
-hq- weirdboy 70 (power: warpath, fists of gork)
-troop- Boyz (10, power klaw) 100 + trukk 70
-troop- Boyz (10, power klaw) 100 + trukk 70
-elite- Kommandos (10, power klaw) 105
-elite- Kommandos (10, power klaw) 105
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-heavy- mek gun (traktor kannon) 45
-heavy- mek gun (traktor kannon) 45
-flyer- dakkajet (2x additional supa shoota, kustom job: more dakka) 135

Total: 2000pts / 9cp

Secondaries; engage on all fronts, retrieve octarius data, stomp 'em good

Great list, but I would go heavier on stormboyz and kommandos, sacrificing one unit of bikes to do so. The lack of antitank shoot8mg shouldn’t be a problem with all the fast units you can throw at your opponents face

 addnid wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
I'll include my latest build for constructive critique, I wanted to make it fast and deadly, but also score objectives;

Spoiler:

Goffs outriders detachment
-hq- Warboss (kustom shoota, big choppa) 90 (warlord: might is right, relic: headwhoppas killchoppa)
-hq- weirdboy 70 (power: warpath, fists of gork)
-troop- Boyz (10, power klaw) 100 + trukk 70
-troop- Boyz (10, power klaw) 100 + trukk 70
-elite- Kommandos (10, power klaw) 105
-elite- Kommandos (10, power klaw) 105
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Storm Boyz (10, power klaw) 120
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-fast- Warbikers (9, power klaw) 235
-heavy- mek gun (traktor kannon) 45
-heavy- mek gun (traktor kannon) 45
-flyer- dakkajet (2x additional supa shoota, kustom job: more dakka) 135

Total: 2000pts / 9cp

Secondaries; engage on all fronts, retrieve octarius data, stomp 'em good

Great list, but I would go heavier on stormboyz and kommandos, sacrificing one unit of bikes to do so. The lack of antitank shoot8mg shouldn’t be a problem with all the fast units you can throw at your opponents face

Thanks, points were really tight with the build, and I wanted to max out Warbikers, since they are the most reliable alpha strike (32" threat range). The amount of power klaws in the list should take out any tougher targets, and when the units make a charge move, +1S makes it up to critical S5 (wounding T8 with 5+). The list could also work as an Evil Sunz, for extra movement.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Nice, Meganobs with 2 killsaws still get their bonus attack and the Dragstas Shokk rifle is still assault and treated as having BS3+.
Also I really like the idea of putting 20 Flash Gits in a battlewaggon.
Too bad the ammo runts don't count as models any more to die first in explosions.
Oh and full chapter master Goff melee rerolls with Ghazzi. Might be cool to reroll all 1-
4 results on a buffed unit to get more 5s and 6s.

And the Crusade rules are really cool. There is a mechanic that characters with more experience as your Warlord must challenge him and they fight in a little mini game against each other for the right to be the Warlord.

Shokk rifle kind of had to stay Assault or the shokk tunnel would mean they couldn't shoot at all. Didn't help the rokkit though.

hmm, just noticed that my All Bikers List both got better and got whacked by this update.
Got nerfed because i cant have 2 warbike bosses now.
Got better because of course bikers have AP1, 3w, and -1 to hit
Got nerfed in terms of bodies, since bikers are 9 max now.

Its 1825pts (assuming Bikernobz dont change any costs in the expected faq for FW stuff) for 3x9 Warbikers (Klawnob), 3x9 Bikernobs (4Saw6Bigchop) and 1 Warbike on Boss.
Literally cannot bring another bike to fill the last 175pts. Damn it :( (squigriders arent bikes!!! even if they fit the same theme)
What i can bring got better but the reduction to 9 model biker units means i have points lying around i cant use on bike units

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, just noticed that my All Bikers List both got better and got whacked by this update.
Got nerfed because i cant have 2 warbike bosses now.
Got better because of course bikers have AP1, 3w, and -1 to hit
Got nerfed in terms of bodies, since bikers are 9 max now.

Its 1825pts (assuming Bikernobz dont change any costs in the expected faq for FW stuff) for 3x9 Warbikers (Klawnob), 3x9 Bikernobs (4Saw6Bigchop) and 1 Warbike on Boss.
Literally cannot bring another bike to fill the last 175pts. Damn it :( (squigriders arent bikes!!! even if they fit the same theme)
What i can bring got better but the reduction to 9 model biker units means i have points lying around i cant use on bike units

only fight 1500 or 1750 point matches ?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, just noticed that my All Bikers List both got better and got whacked by this update.
Got nerfed because i cant have 2 warbike bosses now.
Got better because of course bikers have AP1, 3w, and -1 to hit
Got nerfed in terms of bodies, since bikers are 9 max now.

Its 1825pts (assuming Bikernobz dont change any costs in the expected faq for FW stuff) for 3x9 Warbikers (Klawnob), 3x9 Bikernobs (4Saw6Bigchop) and 1 Warbike on Boss.
Literally cannot bring another bike to fill the last 175pts. Damn it :( (squigriders arent bikes!!! even if they fit the same theme)
What i can bring got better but the reduction to 9 model biker units means i have points lying around i cant use on bike units

Any Ork player who collected during the days where Assault on Black Reach was freely available knows - Deffkoptas are just Warbikers waiting to happen. Remembering that recently, I actually shuddered at the thought of all those deffkoptas that GW never made again being chopped up to make warbikers on the cheap. But all's well that ends well, we have plastic koptas again and I'm sure they'll be even more expensive than the warbiker kit.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, just noticed that my All Bikers List both got better and got whacked by this update.
Got nerfed because i cant have 2 warbike bosses now.
Got better because of course bikers have AP1, 3w, and -1 to hit
Got nerfed in terms of bodies, since bikers are 9 max now.

Its 1825pts (assuming Bikernobz dont change any costs in the expected faq for FW stuff) for 3x9 Warbikers (Klawnob), 3x9 Bikernobs (4Saw6Bigchop) and 1 Warbike on Boss.
Literally cannot bring another bike to fill the last 175pts. Damn it :( (squigriders arent bikes!!! even if they fit the same theme)
What i can bring got better but the reduction to 9 model biker units means i have points lying around i cant use on bike units

Bring a FW Kanonwagon, 170 points of fun !

i am still trying to find ways to break the game lol


extra megablasters kustom job isn't a vehicle kustom job, this means you give it to all 3 deff dreads in a unit XD

so you could have 5 megablasters on each deff dread

15 x d3 blast shots at s8 d6 damage

make it freebooters to try get +1 to hit to make it hitting on 4's

not certain if there is a betterway to improve shooting ?

thats 405 points though........maybe not worth it XD






Automatically Appended Next Post:
i definitely think blood axes are the worst klan now,

i can't see why you would want your entire army to have fall back and shoot (or charge), the extra mortals for charging that some units have arn't enough to justify switching from a different kulture i feel
the light cover buff from further than 18" away is meh given than ork ranged units that stay further than 18" away usually don't have much of a save anyway and smaller maps mean ork melee units they wont be far away for long, and given that light cover only affects infantry not bikes buggies vehicles or squig riders, it seems pointless.

The warlord trait allows you to redploy units or put into strategic reserves without using CP - i can't see this being that useful or to be more precise - i can't see this being better than other warlord traits

the strategem allows you to deep strike non mega armour infantry, cheaper than the teleporter but is saving CP really that important ?

The relic allows you to gain CP on a 4+ - again is CP really that important with stratagems being a weak point in this codex ? i don't think so.

You’re right flashgitz don’t have freebooter and <clan>

No, as they aren't freebootas.

Stay with me on this one guys and shoot as many holes in it as you can.

Competitive 9th orkz.

Ghaz (I Know)
10 boyz Trukk
10 Boyz Trukk
10 Trukk Boyz.

10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos

9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes.

Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas
Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas

Turn 1 Everything moves up, the Kommandos will be in charge range easily, the Warbikes as well and the Trukkboyz are my 2nd turn shenanigans. Ghaz calls his Waaagh which means I get the benefit of BOTH WAAAAGHs. The Warbikes and Dakkajetz go to town on shooting while the trukk boyz do their best to impact the game (They wont ). Following that, the Kommandos and Warbikes all charge while the trukkboyz and ghaz hang back for turn 2 fun.

Incredibly gimmicky and has a hard time if you don't get first turn but it could be actually a bit durable with all the warbikes and planes being -1 to hit and the kommandos hanging out in cover.

Please poke holes and give me some feedback, this looks competitive in my head but I appreciate everyones insight.

tulun wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


I still think the real power unit in close combat is obviously Beasthog riders. They get 5 S6 AP 2 damage attacks per model for a little more than two snagga boyz and less than 3 boyz, on top of 10" movement speed and tons of ways to increase their lethality further still, e.g. Snakebites or the Beastgob, +1 to hit, etc. Their output is silly even compared to dual killsaw meganobz which require more points per model and more points still for a transport. Is there literally anything in the book that compares to their close combat potential? Other than Mozrog that pairs with them perfectly?

Goffs Squigsaur w/ Relic choppa, brutal but kunnin, and exploding 5s is probably the hardest hitting thing we have.

I suppose it would be if the codex didn't explicitly state that you can't take that relic or that warlord trait on a kill rig.

SemperMortis wrote:
Stay with me on this one guys and shoot as many holes in it as you can.

Competitive 9th orkz.

Ghaz (I Know)
10 boyz Trukk
10 Boyz Trukk
10 Trukk Boyz.

10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos

9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes.

Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas
Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas

Turn 1 Everything moves up, the Kommandos will be in charge range easily, the Warbikes as well and the Trukkboyz are my 2nd turn shenanigans. Ghaz calls his Waaagh which means I get the benefit of BOTH WAAAAGHs. The Warbikes and Dakkajetz go to town on shooting while the trukk boyz do their best to impact the game (They wont ). Following that, the Kommandos and Warbikes all charge while the trukkboyz and ghaz hang back for turn 2 fun.

Incredibly gimmicky and has a hard time if you don't get first turn but it could be actually a bit durable with all the warbikes and planes being -1 to hit and the kommandos hanging out in cover.

Please poke holes and give me some feedback, this looks competitive in my head but I appreciate everyones insight.

So are the warbikers turn 1 charging or turn 2 shooting? Gonna be hard to do both.

 kingbbobb wrote:

extra megablasters kustom job isn't a vehicle kustom job, this means you give it to all 3 deff dreads in a unit XD

...

i definitely think blood axes are the worst klan now,

Nice catch about the mek (non-vehicle) kustom job !

About Blood axe, agree the benefits are not as good as other clans, but they are not completely useless either.

My orks are usually bad at attrition so I hate it when I charge and the alpha strike ends up ridiculously bad.
If they're still alive, being able to fell back and charge and be first to hit again is nice...
Especially if you build your army for this, we got quite a few units that are at best on charge. (Someone was suggesting using squigNobz for ex)

The 18"-away-cover, just like the redeployment and the ability to go in reserve in a whim, improves (a bit) the chance of enduring the inevitable first round of shooting.

Hm... I think you got it somewhat wrong here. Vehicles can get cover, they just can't get it from terrain features.
If this is correct, the blood axe trait is the only way i see to provide cover to our vehicles. Dreads and wagons get 2+ save... if shot with ap-3 guns, they still got 5+ save, that's basically free KFF (old codex) army wide on the first turn !
You guys can certainly come up with ideas to use that (2+ save kannonwagon ?)

 TedNugent wrote:

tulun wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


I still think the real power unit in close combat is obviously Beasthog riders. They get 5 S6 AP 2 damage attacks per model for a little more than two snagga boyz and less than 3 boyz, on top of 10" movement speed and tons of ways to increase their lethality further still, e.g. Snakebites or the Beastgob, +1 to hit, etc. Their output is silly even compared to dual killsaw meganobz which require more points per model and more points still for a transport. Is there literally anything in the book that compares to their close combat potential? Other than Mozrog that pairs with them perfectly?

Goffs Squigsaur w/ Relic choppa, brutal but kunnin, and exploding 5s is probably the hardest hitting thing we have.

I suppose it would be if the codex didn't explicitly state that you can't take that relic or that warlord trait on a kill rig.

I'm not talking about the Kill rig, but just your bucket HQ regular squig dino warboss.

That is absolutely more killy than the Kill Rig by a mile.

Edit, just reread the relic.

That's an option, but

I really don't know why you would take him over Mozgrod.

 TedNugent wrote:
The squig warboss doesn't have a big Choppa. Only the nob on squig does.

Warboss has a beast Choppa.

I really don't know why you would take him over Mozgrod either.

The relic can replace the beast choppa, a big choppa, or a 'uge choppa.

 TedNugent wrote:
Edit, just reread the relic.

That's an option, but

I really don't know why you would take him over Mozgrod.

You're running Goffs, not snakebites. You can also take both if you take 2 detachments.

You asked if there is anything killier than either -- it's a Goff Squigsaur stacked with that relic, WLT, and strat.

 kingbbobb wrote:
i am still trying to find ways to break the game lol

Spoiler:

extra megablasters kustom job isn't a vehicle kustom job, this means you give it to all 3 deff dreads in a unit XD

so you could have 5 megablasters on each deff dread

15 x d3 blast shots at s8 d6 damage

make it freebooters to try get +1 to hit to make it hitting on 4's

not certain if there is a betterway to improve shooting ?

thats 405 points though........maybe not worth it XD

If you want to maximize the number of extra shots, you should be looking at a grot mega tank sporting 7 KMB. Not cheap, but hey - 21 BS4+ shots on average, for just 160 points.

i definitely think blood axes are the worst klan now,

i can't see why you would want your entire army to have fall back and shoot (or charge), the extra mortals for charging that some units have arn't enough to justify switching from a different kulture i feel
the light cover buff from further than 18" away is meh given than ork ranged units that stay further than 18" away usually don't have much of a save anyway and smaller maps mean ork melee units they wont be far away for long, and given that light cover only affects infantry not bikes buggies vehicles or squig riders, it seems pointless.

The warlord trait allows you to redploy units or put into strategic reserves without using CP - i can't see this being that useful or to be more precise - i can't see this being better than other warlord traits

the strategem allows you to deep strike non mega armour infantry, cheaper than the teleporter but is saving CP really that important ?

The relic allows you to gain CP on a 4+ - again is CP really that important with stratagems being a weak point in this codex ? i don't think so.

I disagree. Extra CP are always mean extra options and tricks you can pull, even if it's just re-rolling dice and firing overwatch. The stratagem to pick up units and place them into reserves also can be quite valuable as it allows you to hide wounded units, and threaten the enemy backfield and objectives. It's essentially da jump as a stratagem.
Lastly, the warlord trait allows you to get 3 tellportas for just 1 CP, plus you get to play mind games while doing so.

So while there isn't a lot of raw power to be found here, there are lots of tactical shenanigans you can pull, which is precisely what bloodaxes are about. So I wouldn't say they are any weaker than evil suns or bad moons. In general, I don't feel like the gap between the cultures is that big anyways - goff are clear winners with their trait in an army dedicated to them, and freebootas, deff skulls and snakebites are a bit more competitive than others, but your army will not fall apart because you didn't paint them blue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XC18 wrote:
Hm... I think you got it somewhat wrong here. Vehicles can get cover, they just can't get it from terrain features.
If this is correct, the blood axe trait is the only way i see to provide cover to our vehicles. Dreads and wagons get 2+ save... if shot with ap-3 guns, they still got 5+ save, that's basically free KFF (old codex) army wide on the first turn !
You guys can certainly come up with ideas to use that (2+ save kannonwagon ?)

I have tried making the bloodaxe trait work a lot, but 18" really is a deal breaker for orks. Just don't bother trying to make it work, just be happy when it does. Fall back and shoot/charge is nice for vehicles with blast weapons but otherwise useless as well, orks simply rarely, if ever end up in a position where they could even make the decision to fall back.

SemperMortis wrote:
Stay with me on this one guys and shoot as many holes in it as you can.

Competitive 9th orkz.

Ghaz (I Know)
10 boyz Trukk
10 Boyz Trukk
10 Trukk Boyz.

10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos

9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes.

Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas
Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas

Turn 1 Everything moves up, the Kommandos will be in charge range easily, the Warbikes as well and the Trukkboyz are my 2nd turn shenanigans. Ghaz calls his Waaagh which means I get the benefit of BOTH WAAAAGHs. The Warbikes and Dakkajetz go to town on shooting while the trukk boyz do their best to impact the game (They wont ). Following that, the Kommandos and Warbikes all charge while the trukkboyz and ghaz hang back for turn 2 fun.

Incredibly gimmicky and has a hard time if you don't get first turn but it could be actually a bit durable with all the warbikes and planes being -1 to hit and the kommandos hanging out in cover.

Please poke holes and give me some feedback, this looks competitive in my head but I appreciate everyones insight.

You need a 2nd HQ otherwise you can't field the 3rd squad of kommandos and the 3rd squad of warbikes. Patrol only allows 2 slots of elites or fast attacks.

Since you field 10 man squad of kommandos don't forget to take a bomb squig for each squad. I've just noticed that we can't give it to smaller squads, which left me extremely disappointed.

It seems you can't make Nobz trumkboyz.
Specialist detachment says it can be NOB. Nobz have a keyword NOBZ. The only units that have a NOB keyword are Nob with Waaagh banner and NOB on a squig.

GW has always been lax on the the plurals of keywords. It's safe to assume that NOB and NOBZ is one and the same. The units are differentiated from characters by the CORE and MOB keywords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, just noticed that my All Bikers List both got better and got whacked by this update.
Got nerfed because i cant have 2 warbike bosses now.
Got better because of course bikers have AP1, 3w, and -1 to hit
Got nerfed in terms of bodies, since bikers are 9 max now.

Its 1825pts (assuming Bikernobz dont change any costs in the expected faq for FW stuff) for 3x9 Warbikers (Klawnob), 3x9 Bikernobs (4Saw6Bigchop) and 1 Warbike on Boss.
Literally cannot bring another bike to fill the last 175pts. Damn it :( (squigriders arent bikes!!! even if they fit the same theme)
What i can bring got better but the reduction to 9 model biker units means i have points lying around i cant use on bike units

AFAIK the squigs have options for wheels as hindlegs, so they might count as half a bike?

Otherwise, koptas and buggies are great fits visually, or you spread them to two detachmetns and add a wartrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Stay with me on this one guys and shoot as many holes in it as you can.

Competitive 9th orkz.

Spoiler:

Ghaz (I Know)
10 boyz Trukk
10 Boyz Trukk
10 Trukk Boyz.

10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos
10 Kommandos

9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes
9 Warbikes.

Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas
Dakkajet +2 Supa-Shootas

Turn 1 Everything moves up, the Kommandos will be in charge range easily, the Warbikes as well and the Trukkboyz are my 2nd turn shenanigans. Ghaz calls his Waaagh which means I get the benefit of BOTH WAAAAGHs. The Warbikes and Dakkajetz go to town on shooting while the trukk boyz do their best to impact the game (They wont ). Following that, the Kommandos and Warbikes all charge while the trukkboyz and ghaz hang back for turn 2 fun.

Incredibly gimmicky and has a hard time if you don't get first turn but it could be actually a bit durable with all the warbikes and planes being -1 to hit and the kommandos hanging out in cover.

Please poke holes and give me some feedback, this looks competitive in my head but I appreciate everyones insight.

Lists in spoilers

In general, I'd do a double patrol here, so you can have two units of trukk boyz. The second HQ can be a warboss on bike, a weird boy or just Makari if you want to save points - you are missing a second HQ right now anyways.

Tried out a game yesterday with this list



Albeit the game was against an average Genestealer Cult list, I tabled him turn 2 I did enjoy some of the perks that come with the new codex.
T5 on infantry really shines in close combat so IMHO a fast army is the way to go, even against armies that we would usually rather shoot than punch.

I may be exagerating but 750 points of deffkoptas really feel like an auto-take in any kind of list. Their free deepstrike combined with Ramming Speed! after popping 10d3 rokkits and an obscene amount of attacks once they collides, especially during a whaag! is hard to beat

I'm thinking of taking buggies in pairs. That way there shouldn't be too much of a roadblock when they're whizzing around, and they have a decent chance of not wiping themselves out to morale in most cases.

Or do I just double down on koptas

TBF, is tabling GSC right now not just beating a cripple at this point Zompa?

 Jidmah wrote:

I disagree. Extra CP are always mean extra options and tricks you can pull, even if it's just re-rolling dice and firing overwatch. The stratagem to pick up units and place them into reserves also can be quite valuable as it allows you to hide wounded units, and threaten the enemy backfield and objectives. It's essentially da jump as a stratagem.
Lastly, the warlord trait allows you to get 3 tellportas for just 1 CP, plus you get to play mind games while doing so.

.

The stratagem isn't quit as good as da jump. Da jump obviously happens in 1 turn but the strat happens over 2 turns meaning you miss a round of shooting or combat. Because it uses strategic reserves it has to be placed along the battlefield edge. But not the enemies battlefield edge. So it can't threaten the back line very much. I often find it difficult to deploy 9" away from the be enemy units in these circumstances.

However. You can deploy in your own battlefield edge within engagement range of enemy models if every model is within 1" of the edge. This counts as a charge. Useful against an opponent s who think they are being clever dropping or moving flying bikes to the back lol

Zompa wrote:
I may be exagerating but 750 points of deffkoptas really feel like an auto-take in any kind of list. Their free deepstrike combined with Ramming Speed! after popping 10d3 rokkits and an obscene amount of attacks once they collides, especially during a whaag! is hard to beat

Are koptas really that good? I was worried for 50 points they seem a little squishy, just dead the next turn, glass cannon style. Does the single volley of rockets make up for this, did you do enough damage to justify them?

Commissar Yarrork wrote:

Zompa wrote:
I may be exagerating but 750 points of deffkoptas really feel like an auto-take in any kind of list. Their free deepstrike combined with Ramming Speed! after popping 10d3 rokkits and an obscene amount of attacks once they collides, especially during a whaag! is hard to beat

Are koptas really that good? I was worried for 50 points they seem a little squishy, just dead the next turn, glass cannon style. Does the single volley of rockets make up for this, did you do enough damage to justify them?

I think, gsc are kinda predestined to not like koptas, fast, deepstrike, a gakton of attacks ontop of it and lots of squishy vehicles which will get pretty easily destroyed with rockits all but guarantee a bad time. They are also an excellent way of allowing you to defeat the average GSC list in detail if the player makes a mistake. Otoh GSC either has heavy AT or anti horde weaponry, and both are underwhelming against a T5 4W model

Man, what relics can you even give to a deffkilla wartrike? Are mastercrafted weapons still a thing? A Dmg 3 snagga klaw might be a decent way to spend a CP, especially if he's buffed up to S8 by might is right..

Im almost sure it's about to get nerfed, but the ramming MWs from the Sceapjets are insane.
On average you make the same number of Mortal wounds as there are models, so you basically whipe out any 1 LP squad just with the charge and kill 1/2 of any 2 wound infantry.
But you need 3 single scrapjets because the ramming is per unit not per model.

Quad Mega Blasta Deffdread with kustom job is 135 points but 12 shots on average sounds quite cool as well.

Same for 5-6 Deffkoptas with rokkits, that's some serious firepower. Not sure if I prefer them as ES for fire and fade or BM for some extra dakka.
Not to mention getting 2 turns of Waaagh on top of that, the combination of heavy weapons and vehicle Keyword opens up a few good buffs.


And I was thinking about the best way to spam MW.
15 Goff Burnas with the MW Kustom job are 180 points, but if you stack some buffs on them (+1 to hit, exploding 5s, Ghazzis full reroll, Warpath, Waaagh, -2 AP strat) you will get 10+ MWs and 30+ AP-2 wounds against T4.
Quite an investment but might be a fun thing to try.
Have I missed anything to reroll wounds on them?


And about Trukkboys / nobs, you can still get 3 of them if you go for 1-2 patrol and 1-2 outrider detachments.
Fast attack slots are gonna be so damn crowded.
Combined with follow me lads, Stormboys, Commandos, Bikes, porting boys, trukk meganobs you should get off quite a good amount of charges.
Some squig riders on top + 3 Warlords and we have most of our army in close combat in turn 1-2.


I have to say after my first disappointment with the overall codex there are still some cool things we can pull off.
Might not be a top tier Codex but there are some neat combinations I look forward to try.

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBF, is tabling GSC right now not just beating a cripple at this point Zompa?

Sure, that's why I pointed that out.

But the damage output is still there, Nobz erasing abominations was still a nice checkmark for punchiness while Deffkoptas ate the Goliaths like it was nothing.

Iron Hands Redemptor dreadnoughts would surely be a tighter check.

Also GSC is tricky beacuse it's another glass cannon army with "sneakier" deployment options.

Commissar Yarrork790345 11180458 null wrote:Are koptas really that good?

That single volly is still 20 rokkits on average. Also you can pop the SPEEDFREAKS strat for -1 to Hit on top of Ramshackle. And as said, you can just keep them in the sky to drop them T2 and RAMMING SPEED some poor infantry unit.

250 points for 10d3 Rokkit shots and a solid charge with 30/45 attacks BEFORE klan tricks/bonuses is an auto take IMHO, the only issue being if three squads are an overkill

PiñaColada wrote:
Man, what relics can you even give to a deffkilla wartrike? Are mastercrafted weapons still a thing? A Dmg 3 snagga klaw might be a decent way to spend a CP, especially if he's buffed up to S8 by might is right..

I think only the evil suns and freeboota relics are worth taking. Goff, bloodaxe and snakebite work in theory, but they are better used on other models.

It has access to a number of good warlord traits though, which is important since it need to be your warlord to call a Speed Waaagh!.

Zompa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBF, is tabling GSC right now not just beating a cripple at this point Zompa?

Sure, that's why I pointed that out.

But the damage output is still there, Nobz erasing abominations was still a nice checkmark for punchiness while Deffkoptas ate the Goliaths like it was nothing.

Iron Hands Redemptor dreadnoughts would surely be a tighter check.

Also GSC is tricky beacuse it's another glass cannon army with "sneakier" deployment options.

I don't think so.. mind my gsc experience is not competitive, but frankly i don't see much options GSC have against orks. T5 severly reduced their effectivity against orks overall.
Aberrants are also overpriced by nearly double a Nob in pts with worse equipment and statline.

Are ~20 Rokkit shots really that powerful?
That's still only 6-7 hits

Zompa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBF, is tabling GSC right now not just beating a cripple at this point Zompa?

Sure, that's why I pointed that out.

But the damage output is still there, Nobz erasing abominations was still a nice checkmark for punchiness while Deffkoptas ate the Goliaths like it was nothing.

Iron Hands Redemptor dreadnoughts would surely be a tighter check.

Also GSC is tricky beacuse it's another glass cannon army with "sneakier" deployment options.

Commissar Yarrork790345 11180458 null wrote:Are koptas really that good?

That single volly is still 20 rokkits on average. Also you can pop the SPEEDFREAKS strat for -1 to Hit on top of Ramshackle. And as said, you can just keep them in the sky to drop them T2 and RAMMING SPEED some poor infantry unit.

250 points for 10d3 Rokkit shots and a solid charge with 30/45 attacks BEFORE klan tricks/bonuses is an auto take IMHO, the only issue being if three squads are an overkill

Stupid question, but we all agree that the -1 to hit strat "cloud of smoke" applies also to the unit on which you pop the strat ? Not just those within 6 ? (in short, it doesn counts itself as within 6 ? seems like an even more stupid question now...)

Zompa wrote:
That single volly is still 20 rokkits on average. Also you can pop the SPEEDFREAKS strat for -1 to Hit on top of Ramshackle. And as said, you can just keep them in the sky to drop them T2 and RAMMING SPEED some poor infantry unit.

250 points for 10d3 Rokkit shots and a solid charge with 30/45 attacks BEFORE klan tricks/bonuses is an auto take IMHO, the only issue being if three squads are an overkill

idk

20 rokkits is 6 hits is 5 wounds against T3/T4 is 3 kills against 3+.

vs T7 vehicles that's 4 wounds is 9 damage against 3+ that might only cost 70 points.

vs T8 vehicles that's 3 wounds is 6 damage against 3+.

On a 250 point unit that's not very impressive.

They're definitely still good in melee but I'm just not impressed with the rokkits.

Even then, against MEQ, the melee is 30 attacks is 20 hits is 13 wounds is 6 damage, 3 dead marines.

 addnid wrote:

Stupid question, but we all agree that the -1 to hit strat "cloud of smoke" applies also to the unit on which you pop the strat ? Not just those within 6 ? (in short, it doesn counts itself as within 6 ? seems like an even more stupid question now...)

It doesn't say "another friendly unit" but "a friendly unit" so yeah, it works. Just like sm captains gave reroll 1s to themselves and warbosses could run and charge.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
They're badly missing a slot for "Undaboss", a Lt-like character for 40-50 pts that's like a Warboss with 1 less wound, attack, and that can't use Waaagh … a Jr.command model for small games and that can be a subordinate sort in larger ones.

There's a *remote* chance that we'll see one in a "Second wave" or new Ork models, but I don't think it'll happen, which is … painful.

That HQ slot is *painful* right now.

A Lefftenunt or Big Boss would be a cool addition.

Yeah, would be a great idea for a new.....codex

Never mind, just remove the 0-1 and we'll be good, thank you.

So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

 koooaei wrote:
So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

It depends if the effect of speed waagh is counted as a modifier to ranged attacks, if it is then any transport with a ranged weapon should confer the same benefit to occupants (a weaponless transport potentially not counting as benefiting from the modifier).

Until clarified otherwise I would assume yes as there is no definition I'm aware of as to what a modifier is, so any changed stats seem reasonable.

Zompa wrote:

 addnid wrote:

Stupid question, but we all agree that the -1 to hit strat "cloud of smoke" applies also to the unit on which you pop the strat ? Not just those within 6 ? (in short, it doesn counts itself as within 6 ? seems like an even more stupid question now...)

It doesn't say "another friendly unit" but "a friendly unit" so yeah, it works. Just like sm captains gave reroll 1s to themselves and warbosses could run and charge.

Yep i was thinking along these lines too. Thanks !

 koooaei wrote:
So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

I believe they do due to a rare rule.

"9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."

However as with most rare rule use, expect your opponents not to like it at all.

 Lysit wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

I believe they do due to a rare rule.

"9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."

However as with most rare rule use, expect your opponents not to like it at all.

Where is that rule from?

 koooaei wrote:

Where is that rule from?

Core rules.

 Lysit wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Where is that rule from?

Core rules.

Oh, wow. But doesn't the speed waagh rule say you must be vehicle to receive the bonus?

 koooaei wrote:
So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

From the BRB FAQ, these are the relevant rules:

]7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks.
9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its
ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.

So, for 7 the models would be affected, but since they aren't BIKER or VEHICLE models, the only direct benefit is that they ignore the modifier for shooting assault weapons and advancing.
For 9, the AP is definitely a modifier to the transport's attacks, for the extra attack RAW I'd say no because it's not a modifier to the ranged attacks but to the model/weapons. It's not 100% clear though and could honestly go either way.

Feel free to take it to YMDC and turn it into a 10 page thread though

But it only applies when they make attack. And only for MODELS that are vehicles/bikers

PiñaColada wrote:
Man, what relics can you even give to a deffkilla wartrike? Are mastercrafted weapons still a thing? A Dmg 3 snagga klaw might be a decent way to spend a CP, especially if he's buffed up to S8 by might is right..

Each clan where you'd actually want a deffkilla gives you a solid relic you can take on one, thankfully. Banner from Freebootas or redder paint from evil sunz.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Im almost sure it's about to get nerfed, but the ramming MWs from the Sceapjets are insane.
On average you make the same number of Mortal wounds as there are models, so you basically whipe out any 1 LP squad just with the charge and kill 1/2 of any 2 wound infantry.
But you need 3 single scrapjets because the ramming is per unit not per model.

You're misreading the rule. You don't roll a dice for each model in the enemy unit. You roll a dice for each Scrapjet in your unit. It maxes out at 9 Mortal wounds

 Lysit wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, do passengers get speed waagh benefits?

I believe they do due to a rare rule.

"9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack."

However as with most rare rule use, expect your opponents not to like it at all.

the thing about the transport rule is that the restrictions are also passed down to the embarked unit, not just +1's.
The restrictions are part of the modifier and also get passed down. So as the embarked models are not vehicles or bikers the answer is no for the most part.

But they would get the benefit of not suffering hit penalties for advancing are firing assault weapons

Will give it a try with a tripple Goff patrol this weekend:



Plan is to speed forward turn 1 with the warboss, meganobs and Boys running as Trukkboyz accompanied by the Waaaaghbanner. (Banner has to run besides his Trukk turn 1 or disembark turn 2 though.)
That's 20" + 3D6 for advancing and charging. And 18" + 2D6 for the Stormboys.
The 30 Boys get jumped with warpath and will follow the warboss with an 8" charge.

Ghazzi will try to keep up and maybe even reach some units with his Aura while the scrapjets zip around shooting and getting some charges turn 1-2 maybe.

Kommandos pop up on objectives midfield and the 30 gretchin will camp in my backyard.

Might get a nice Alpha strike with turn one + Waaagh, depends how I can hide the trukks and stormboys to survive if I go second.

Warboss and banner will try to overlap +1 to hit for 2+ Saw Nobs and otherwise will try to give most of the stuff a 2+ as well.

Any ideas to improve that list? Feels like a little a little thin on models even with 100+ bodies and 5 vehicles, but at least no kill secondary can score more than 10-13 points against that list.

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

Don' t forget the Big Trakk! Same slot like BW, but cheaper and faster. With two big shoota to actually kill the last guardsman

Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

Also remember that a battlewagon doesn't actually have the capacity of 2 trukks. Trukks have 12 slots each, which opens up for 10 (or the new, situationally super important 11+) and a character. A battlewagon can only take either 2 boyz squads or a singular one plus other characters.

I think I still prefer the trukks personally but the BWs aren't a bad choice, even if they eat into HS slots. I think I'd only take them over trukks if you specifically want a deffrolla or if you're in some melta meta where you really want that forktress kustom job (which a trukk could also take but that seems like a waste to me)

Appreciate the help guys, yeah I forgot a 2nd HQ....There really isn't one that I want LOL. I feel like the SpeedWaaagh is more important than the regular one so Maybe i'll switch out Ghaz for a warboss on warbike and than grab....I have no idea, maybe a weirdboy or something. With the rest of the saved points i'll grab Bomb squigs for the kommandos and some more models in there as well.

Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Yeah, it was the first come in my mind - on 1 model is slain.

That is the reason, why my BW crew is 4-5 MANz and 10 grots. With grots, it' s very relaxing to the Emegrency Disembark, slay more grots and put MANz 6” away…. Like behind the containers or ruins for example

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.

At least the Battlewagon can do something meaningful in combat phase.

I'm really looking at things like Warbikers and Squighogs and their sheer output without having to take a transport. Why would I want to spend 170 points on a trukk boyz squad that is nothing more than the boyz in terms of offense?

At least a BW with 2 squads of boyz is more points efficient in terms of actually getting 3 models on the board, all three of which can offend the enemy. The Trukk literally has nothing more than a big shoota and a few attacks hitting on 5's.

I could see taking a BW in tandem with a trukk, I just can't see getting three trukks with 10 boyz squads. The Trukk itself is dead weight with a big shoota. I would like to see a similar item to the deff rolla, just scaled down, like a spiked ram. At least a 4+ to hit would be nice. It makes vastly more sense either to me as a transport for heavy infantry like nobs or meganobz or an open topped platform for units that can actually shoot, like burnas. It seems like it was devised from the outset as a mobile bunker and rapid assault vehicle based on its 4th edition rules due to assault vehicle. It actually had two perks, being one of a handful of assault vehicles on top of allowing units to shoot out of it, which was unique at the time. Compared to a Razorback or a Rhino, it actually seemed nice. It would be great if the math for shootas wasn't quite so dismal, which is why I think a lot hinges on a frank ruling about speed waaagh.

I think the concept of 3 mobile trukk bunkers for shootas actually sounds awesome, I just think the shootas themselves underperform in strong contrast to their 5th edition version and I can't get over that. They used to compare very favorably to tactical marines. The 2 wound MEQ just makes them seem like pea shooters. It looks you'd be taking a single marine off the board at dakka range with 12 shootas.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Tbh if your taking Ghaz in a Wagon, you really should spend 25pts for a Mek to eat the 1 and if your scared youll roll 2 ones, take a 2nd mek for another 25pts.

 Tomsug wrote:

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

Yeah, it was the first come in my mind - on 1 model is slain.

That is the reason, why my BW crew is 4-5 MANz and 10 grots. With grots, it' s very relaxing to the Emegrency Disembark, slay more grots and put MANz 6” away…. Like behind the containers or ruins for example

I was in a tournament a few years back where the opponent argued that the check had to be made per specific model, and the tournament organizer agreed with them so i had to roll for ghaz separately from the nobz squad he was riding with (8th edition index) nobz all lived on the ghaz roll he bit it. was obviously not how the rule worked but needless to say i have not attended a tournament at that location since, there were lots of questionable rules called there.

Keramory wrote:
Fun story I thought you'd all enjoy.

Tried my first 9th game with the information we have. Just to see. Put ghaz in a BW for fun.

Exploded. Rolled a 1. RIP

I strongly encourage everyone continues to do this until you also roll a 1 for ghaz. It's amazing.

I have a reputation of failing single die checks, regardless of what the test is for. Started playing AoS recently and my Plague Furnace hits on a 2+ for D3+4 mortal wounds, i have legit failed it more than succeeded (and in only 6 games its easy to track that record).
Never trust a single test to not fail even on a 2+ lol...bring a random mek for sure

Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

 TedNugent wrote:

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.

At least the Battlewagon can do something meaningful in combat phase.

I'm really looking at things like Warbikers and Squighogs and their sheer output without having to take a transport. Why would I want to spend 170 points on a trukk boyz squad that is nothing more than the boyz in terms of offense?

At least a BW with 2 squads of boyz is more points efficient in terms of actually getting 3 models on the board, all three of which can offend the enemy. The Trukk literally has nothing more than a big shoota and a few attacks hitting on 5's.

I could see taking a BW in tandem with a trukk, I just can't see getting three trukks with 10 boyz squads. The Trukk itself is dead weight with a big shoota. I would like to see a similar item to the deff rolla, just scaled down, like a spiked ram. At least a 4+ to hit would be nice. It makes vastly more sense either to me as a transport for heavy infantry like nobs or meganobz or an open topped platform for units that can actually shoot, like burnas. It seems like it was devised from the outset as a mobile bunker and rapid assault vehicle based on its 4th edition rules due to assault vehicle. It actually had two perks, being one of a handful of assault vehicles on top of allowing units to shoot out of it, which was unique at the time. Compared to a Razorback or a Rhino, it actually seemed nice. It would be great if the math for shootas wasn't quite so dismal, which is why I think a lot hinges on a frank ruling about speed waaagh.

I think the concept of 3 mobile trukk bunkers for shootas actually sounds awesome, I just think the shootas themselves underperform in strong contrast to their 5th edition version and I can't get over that. They used to compare very favorably to tactical marines. The 2 wound MEQ just makes them seem like pea shooters. It looks you'd be taking a single marine off the board at dakka range with 12 shootas.

Battlewagons feel best unarmed, your paying 135pts for something that might not use its Deff Rolla, or even get to choose what it uses its Rolla against if it gets charged by units it doesnt want to fight. A Battlewagon is more about getting your unit where it needs to go safely compared to a Trukk or two. With T8 and a 3+ save then ramshackle, it should get where it needs to go, however the meta is swimming in Melta/DLances/CLas that its still gonna go down like a sack of gob squigs. I think when these kind of weapons "finally" get brought in line with the rest of reality (costing them right) we might see Battlewagons hit the field. A Trukk is just enough, it gets you where you need to go, a Battlewagon just delievers a larger number of that unit or provides more room for cushioning against explosions (10 Grots).

A Squiggoth is a better gun platform for the likes of Bustas and Gitz, Trukks get you their faster and cheaper, a Killtank pulls double duty and a Killrig has the added benefit of more melee and also being a Beastsnagga. I dont think Battlewagons are bad, they just need a more chilled out AT meta than the others, its now amazing vs those str 5/6/7 damage 2/D3 shots with its improved armour save, but we arent in that state right now. Maybe when T'au and Eldar get redone as they are largely a str 6/7 army, but I imagine when Fusion Blasters/Guns and Railguns/BLances get the Melta DLance treatment, those types of weapons we see from them now with subside for these new AT ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

Wazbom/koptas? Go for easy kills like chaff or forward deploy units, a Rukka could do it too with its indirect. Just pray you get good shots out of it.

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I'm right there with you. I think Mek gunz might still be a good place to start with Freebootas to get that +1 to hit. A few KMKz will kill most light vehicles or elite squads.

That was my first thought...I dont want to waste premium shooting like Kotptaz or Wazbom without getting them the +1 to hit...unfortunately Mek gunz are filthy grots and don't proc the Kulture :(

No they do. They did not change the wording on how the Freeboota proc works, they just removed the 24" thing.

Gretchin do not BENEFIT from a kulture, they are still part of that kulture though. Mekgunz are still freebootas they just dont get the +1 to hit. The freeboota aura is just looking for a a freeboota that killed something, which would be independent of receiving a buff from the rule.

As i pointed out several several pages ago when this popped up in the current dex, think of it like "Oi! Dat git killed somefin! We can do betta!"
And no Ork is going to flatout ignore a Gretchin killed something before they did...

Tumbleweed wrote:
That was my first thought...I dont want to waste premium shooting like Kotptaz or Wazbom without getting them the +1 to hit...unfortunately Mek gunz are filthy grots and don't proc the Kulture :(

Trigger:
"Each time a Freebooterz unit destroys an enemy unit..... "

Benefit:
"Each time an attack is made by another Freebooterz unit with this Kulture from your army..... "

Grotz should be fine to set it off, they just won't get +1 to hit themselves.

Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

SemperMortis wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freeboter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I'm right there with you. I think Mek gunz might still be a good place to start with Freebootas to get that +1 to hit. A few KMKz will kill most light vehicles or elite squads.

I was looking at the tractor cannon. The damage roll of d3 +3 and d6x3 and +2 to against aircraft is substantial for 45 points.

RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

Probably not since the other major aspect is loss of the reroll damage.
At this point scrapjets are better imo. Shokkjumps were only really good because they could jump and snipe characters reliably and the reroll damage made their 2 shots almost always hit hard.

Appreciate the clear up on the Mek gunz. The way i read it was as the Grotz don't have the Kulture, they don't proc it, but your interpretation makes sense (in english as opposed to in Lore, in which case the rule defo applies). Fortunately I bet there are a load of mek gunz going second hand since they halved the unit size...

Big winners for buggies to me are the squig buggy and the scrapjet.

How do people feel about rokkit koptas vs the scrapjet?

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

A few reasons.

One is Dedicated Transport, using no slots, vs Heavy Support slots. Every Battlewagon taken is one less DeffDread mob or one less rack of Mek Guns.Trukks leave room for more boom.

Trukkas are faster, getting you where you need to be earlier.

Two trukks means two objectives. One Battlewagon means one objective.

With the level of vehicle-erasing units out there (Hi, Eradicators! Hullo Dark Lances!), a single big target is super easy to drop. Two smaller ones is trickier. Wasting wounds, or leaving a trukk a 1-3 wounds, will happen often.

A big shoota isn't much, but all trukks come with one. Battlewagons come with no weapons at all. A little firepower's better than no firepower.

So, those are all good reasons why you might want trukks instead of Wagons.

As for using the Trukks?

The obvious, of course, is "GET 'IM!", where they just roll forward and then die (possibly exploding!) which is all most Trukks will ever do, but if they *do* live, then you start getting options.

The most basic is to draw overwatch by charging before a unit that you care about. See those Aggressors with the frag launchers and the bolter gauntlets? Wee the 6_ save on your lads? DRIVE A TRUK AT 'EM! Doesn't matter if they kill it or not, it sucked up all that sweet, sweet dakka that would have eaten your boys, letting you bring Choppas to da faces, like you've always wanted.

Objective stealin'! Some armies just don't have enough bodies for all the objectives, but Trukks are dirt-cheap and SUPER fast … dip into the backlines and snipe an objective. Sure, that Gladiator can erase you from existence, but if it's shoting an empty trukk that's on an objective, it ain't shooting your Deff Dreads that are lumbering forward. And if they shoot the dreads? Well, you got 5 primary points for holding an objective. Win-win!

Move blocking! If you've ever gone against a Tau player who knew how to use aircraft and Piranha, you know how frustrating it can be to have big ol' things parked right where you want to be. Ruins LoS for shooting, but more than that, it keeps enemy units from being where they want to be by just parking in their way. They'll charge it, sure, maybe kill it, but that's one less round where anyone could have run through that gap, giving you more time to hold objectives and keep fire off of your lads.

Trukks. They're real, real useful.

RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

I think dragstas are still great if you can keep the alive to score endgame "engage on all fronts" (but for that you need to play them conservatively the first turns, and as they are short ranged, well that won't always go well), but indeed on all other aspects, scrapjets are better (they even have one more wound !). But there is no way scrapjets are staying 90 points and dragstas 85 next CA.

BTW is nose drill still the same weapon ?

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

 Dendarien wrote:
Big winners for buggies to me are the squig buggy and the scrapjet.

How do people feel about rokkit koptas vs the scrapjet?

Boosta-blastas got buffed in every way. They got D6 on their exhausts, got a point drop, and Dakka weapon type means they all around perform better at the shorter range they want to be at in order to use the exhausts/charge for MW.

We did lose Burnin' Highway but I pegged that one as a goner as soon as I saw it, and it's not a complete loss as we get the AP back during Speedwaaagh. A squad of 2 is 160 pts and I think is a good tool for anti-forward deployment units.

I'm not sure if I like KBB in squads personally, I think it could get a bit clunky with regards of reaching targets with the new buffed flamers. They're buffed in damage but the range is still just 8" so I'm worried one of them will block the other.

I personally don't like the new shokkjump dragsta, if they renamed the rokkit launcha on it to like a "dragsta rokkit" which would keep the old rokkit launcha stats (1 shot but assault) I'd be a lot more intruiged. Now either you use its signature ability or its new buffed firepower. That just feels like poor design IMO, even if it comes at a reduced pricepoint.

A squad of 2 snazzwagons sounds like pretty fun to me though, permanent -1 to hit means they're not great to shoot at and almost all their weapons being dakka means you could fire them in CC at no great cost.

The skrapjets are still amazing, a bunch of buffed (especially in a speedwaaagh) big shoota shots, buffed wing missile and buffed rokkit kannon. For fewer points? Yes please!

 office_waaagh wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

Buggies and Warbikes...realistically if you're going for dakka jets you want to be able to declare a speed waaaagh. That means a wartrike boss so you're leaning towards a light vehicle list if youre making the most of the stuff thats good? Thats my thoughts on it anyway. But literally any and all ork shooting becomes...pretty good once you're hitting 50% vs 33%

PiñaColada wrote:
I'm not sure if I like KBB in squads personally, I think it could get a bit clunky with regards of reaching targets with the new buffed flamers. They're buffed in damage but the range is still just 8" so I'm worried one of them will block the other.

I personally don't like the new shokkjump dragsta, if they renamed the rokkit launcha on it to like a "dragsta rokkit" which would keep the old rokkit launcha stats (1 shot but assault) I'd be a lot more intruiged. Now either you use its signature ability or its new buffed firepower. That just feels like poor design IMO, even if it comes at a reduced pricepoint.

A squad of 2 snazzwagons sounds like pretty fun to me though, permanent -1 to hit means they're not great to shoot at and almost all their weapons being dakka means you could fire them in CC at no great cost.

The skrapjets are still amazing, a bunch of buffed (especially in a speedwaaagh) big shoota shots, buffed wing missile and buffed rokkit kannon. For fewer points? Yes please!

If the pyromaniacs subkultur gets fixed that's worth considering on KBBs as well. If you can get that squad of 2 in range (this is not as hard as you make it seem, they have large bases and you don't have to measure from the same point, they can "parallel park" alongside the target and measure from the the closest points between their bases, plus they're still assault weapons so you get to advance if it's required) that's 24-48 S4 Ap-1 hits.

 office_waaagh wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:
Despite all the +1 to hit in the new Dex, I'm leaning heavily towards a freebooter heavy list (All the Dakka Jets!). How are people envisioning proccing the rule...what are you going to be shooting with first to wipe a unit and then proc the Army wide +1?

I've been thinking along these lines as well, my thinking is flash gitz, mek guns, and tankbustas. Gitz because they're BS 4+ already and can pretty reliably blow away 5 MEQ in one shooting phase (with a shoot-twice strat in case they whiff, and Badrukk potentially allowing re-roll 1's), tankbustas because they get the +1 to hit vs vehicles already and don't need the buff, and mek guns because they're BS 4+ and can't benefit from the clan but can still trigger the bonus for everyone else. If you're against low-T, low-save models like guard or admech, burna boyz could do as well.

The problem I run into is then filling out the list with things other than dakkajets that actually want the +1 to hit - lootas maybe? Buggies? SAG mek? Arguably the best use is to trigger with something else and then double-shoot BS3+ flash gitz, then enjoy the carnage - on average you're wiping out 20 marines in one turn if you can re-roll 1's to hit as well (and assuming a ten-man squad of marines is the closest target, of course).

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.

Wakshaani wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

A few reasons.

One is Dedicated Transport, using no slots, vs Heavy Support slots. Every Battlewagon taken is one less DeffDread mob or one less rack of Mek Guns.Trukks leave room for more boom.

Trukkas are faster, getting you where you need to be earlier.

Two trukks means two objectives. One Battlewagon means one objective.

With the level of vehicle-erasing units out there (Hi, Eradicators! Hullo Dark Lances!), a single big target is super easy to drop. Two smaller ones is trickier. Wasting wounds, or leaving a trukk a 1-3 wounds, will happen often.

A big shoota isn't much, but all trukks come with one. Battlewagons come with no weapons at all. A little firepower's better than no firepower.

So, those are all good reasons why you might want trukks instead of Wagons.

As for using the Trukks?

The obvious, of course, is "GET 'IM!", where they just roll forward and then die (possibly exploding!) which is all most Trukks will ever do, but if they *do* live, then you start getting options.

The most basic is to draw overwatch by charging before a unit that you care about. See those Aggressors with the frag launchers and the bolter gauntlets? Wee the 6_ save on your lads? DRIVE A TRUK AT 'EM! Doesn't matter if they kill it or not, it sucked up all that sweet, sweet dakka that would have eaten your boys, letting you bring Choppas to da faces, like you've always wanted.

Objective stealin'! Some armies just don't have enough bodies for all the objectives, but Trukks are dirt-cheap and SUPER fast … dip into the backlines and snipe an objective. Sure, that Gladiator can erase you from existence, but if it's shoting an empty trukk that's on an objective, it ain't shooting your Deff Dreads that are lumbering forward. And if they shoot the dreads? Well, you got 5 primary points for holding an objective. Win-win!

Move blocking! If you've ever gone against a Tau player who knew how to use aircraft and Piranha, you know how frustrating it can be to have big ol' things parked right where you want to be. Ruins LoS for shooting, but more than that, it keeps enemy units from being where they want to be by just parking in their way. They'll charge it, sure, maybe kill it, but that's one less round where anyone could have run through that gap, giving you more time to hold objectives and keep fire off of your lads.

Trukks. They're real, real useful.

Trukks definitely aren't faster.

It's 12/8/6 versus 12/9/6.

Have you looked at the numbers for a deff Rolla? It does a large amount of damage in comparison to a big Shoota. Like 15 times as much damage against 2W MEQs compared to a big Shoota at 18".

Literally. At undegraded 6 attacks, it's .83*.83*.66*6 is 2.73 average against a T4 3+ with 2 damage each, or 5.45

A big Shoota has a .36 chance to wound an MEQ. 5.45 / .36 is literally 15 times as much damage. A fresh deffrolla can kill 2 MEQs and wound a third, a big Shoota has a 1/3 chance to hurt a single Marine. It's a non factor.

Of you actually want to kill something with your transport, a deffrolla can do that. A Trukk can't.

You're also paying for that big Shoota, it's baked into the cost. It used to be 65 with 5 points for the mandatory big Shoota, now it's just 70. You could easily throw 1-4 big Shootas on your BW, but most people wouldn't because they don't really do much against durable units. And even if they did, the battlewagon can take more of them for the same price.

And they can also do the same things, e.g. Los blocking or assaulting/absorbing overwatch. With a bigger model. And while they're less efficient numerically, you can use things like ramming speed and get in combat where you want to be with the Rolla.

Only point I'm seeing is the heavy support slots, but deff dreads for instance you can take 1-3 per slot. Same thing with mek guns. How many of these things are you taking? You should be able to get as many as 6 mek guns and still have a slot left over for a battlewagon.

To me it sounds like a question of whether to spend a heavy support slot on something that does the same thing as two trukks plus dealing significant damage in combat, or burn 70 points on a model that does little to nothing other than cart around a single unit.

It's probably not as necessary to run dreads when you have something that provides a relatively similar amount of close combat damage output as a dread against most targets and doubles as a transport. I'm not convinced on dreads because unlike the battlewagon, it's quite slow at 6" and would probably make the most sense in tellyporta with a couple of skorchas considering they are 12" range now.

It's not that I think trukks are useless necessarily, I just don't think they can kill anything. A deff Rolla can kill stuff and carry two units for roughly double the price. Why not bring at least one plus a Trukk for the third unit for your minimum troops?

 Grotrebel wrote:

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.

Ah, good catch! So not much help triggering the +1...on the other hand, it means they can trigger the bonus for themselves - you can blow away a unit with the gitz and then use gun crazy showoffs to shoot again with the +1 to hit this time.

 TedNugent wrote:

tulun wrote:
Keep in mind, 2 trukks can be in two locations. A battlewagon is putting all your eggs in one basket.

Not that it's bad, but it's not totally about raw numbers here.

I can understand that, it just bums me out that trukk has no actual offensive capability. Boyz and snaggaz are definitely better in offensive output than they were, it just feels like a huge tax to pay 70 points on top of 95-110 points to get a naked boyz squad on the table.

TBH, nothing makes me happier than getting something out of a unit that has already 'served its purpose'. A transport that has delivered its cargo and then drives directly in front of a huge enemy model or unit. A suicide unit who survives with one model that then goes to secure an objective or start a secondary action out of LOS.

I've always loved 'non-combat' units since starting to play warhammer so long ago, because it always feels like when you squeak an advantage out of them you're earning the win.

Plus, every time you force an enemy super-duper-uber-unit to spend their turn obliterating an empty transport, Dawn of War has alraedy given you the perfect line to quote:

"We will take. *Snort, slobber*....their METAL BAWKSES AWAYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 office_waaagh wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:

Sadly Gun Crazy Showoffs can only be used at the end of the shooting phase.
But there should be plenty of ways to trigger the culture anyways.

Ah, good catch! So not much help triggering the +1...on the other hand, it means they can trigger the bonus for themselves - you can blow away a unit with the gitz and then use gun crazy showoffs to shoot again with the +1 to hit this time.

This is true. I think for my part though, I'm most likely to try and use basically whatever the cheapest unit I've got available that can score a quick kill on an enemy unit. Squigbuggies are probably the #1 thing my freebootas wont be leaving home without - very often in 9th my opponent is hiding some little unit behind Obscuring somewhere to try and get an action off, and the squigbuggy is just the tool to plink those suckers off and kick off the remainder of the phase +1 to hit.

In fact the Grot gunner gives the squig buggies +1 to hit on the heavy squig launcher anyway...looks like thats the answer then.

RedNoak wrote:
Do you guys think the dragsta is still viable? His gun is only 24" and you can't autojump him anymore... Also d3 mortals on a 8W vehicle is devastating... I think the scrapjet outshines him by far... Am I wrong?

I rarely jumped it anyways unless there was a high value target that needed killing because it hit worse when you did. It's already a fairly fast model and has become a lot cheaper, I still think it's one of the best buggies we have, the extra rokkit shots and better saws are also welcome improvements.

Same for me, i rarely jumped it after my friends learned to not leave their backsides wide open.
But i dont see it being that great because i dont remember ever, EVER shooting the dragsta and not being thankful i could reroll the D6 damage.

 deffrekka wrote:


Battlewagons feel best unarmed, your paying 135pts for something that might not use its Deff Rolla, or even get to choose what it uses its Rolla against if it gets charged by units it doesnt want to fight. A Battlewagon is more about getting your unit where it needs to go safely compared to a Trukk or two. With T8 and a 3+ save then ramshackle, it should get where it needs to go, however the meta is swimming in Melta/DLances/CLas that its still gonna go down like a sack of gob squigs. I think when these kind of weapons "finally" get brought in line with the rest of reality (costing them right) we might see Battlewagons hit the field. A Trukk is just enough, it gets you where you need to go, a Battlewagon just delievers a larger number of that unit or provides more room for cushioning against explosions (10 Grots).

A Squiggoth is a better gun platform for the likes of Bustas and Gitz, Trukks get you their faster and cheaper, a Killtank pulls double duty and a Killrig has the added benefit of more melee and also being a Beastsnagga. I dont think Battlewagons are bad, they just need a more chilled out AT meta than the others, its now amazing vs those str 5/6/7 damage 2/D3 shots with its improved armour save, but we arent in that state right now. Maybe when T'au and Eldar get redone as they are largely a str 6/7 army, but I imagine when Fusion Blasters/Guns and Railguns/BLances get the Melta DLance treatment, those types of weapons we see from them now with subside for these new AT ones.

Okay, so I'd be paying 135 points for a naked T8 transport that does nothing. Why wouldn't I just buy two trukks instead at that point? At least then I'd get two big shootas.

Again, Trukks literally are not faster than a Battlewagon, it's literally 12/8/6 on the Trukk and 12/9/6 on the Battlewagon. The Battlewagon is literally the same speed until it degrades, then it's actually 9" versus 8" on the Trukk.

My problem is, when you're talking about troops, even S5 troops that have a 6+ invulnerable save, they're going to squish when poked when they get to their destination regardless, after they deliver a bevvy of S5 attacks.
Why would I want a 70 point brick that does nothing once I get there? What is the point of getting there with a 10 man unit of boyz when the box does very little in combat other than absorb an overwatch that may or may not happen anyway?
It makes sense for something like Meganobz or nobz that actually have enough hitting power on their own to justify the 200+ points of that unit.

With Trukk Boyz you're literally paying 170 points just to deliver a basic troops unit to the front line where they will evaporate after a turn and leave the Trukk sitting there wondering what it's doing there.

Also, if melta is going to annihilate a battlewagon, why is it not going to do the exact same thing to a trukk? Admittedly it may be more efficient in that regard as melta doesn't differentiate between a 3+ and a 4+ or T6 and T7, which is the argument I'd be more receptive to. In that case, why take buggies? Or Killa Kans? Or Deff Dreads? Or Morkanauts? Or a Kill Rig? Or Stompas? Etc.

Someone made the exact same point when I brought up how strong the statline of a Squighog unit is. Oh, they're going to be blown off the board in one turn. Okay, and what isn't at that point? If everything is going to instantly evaporate in one turn of shooting, doesn't that mean everything is equally awful?
They're all going to instantly blow up from melta from the sky. Or, maybe a handful of them will be blown up, and the rest of them get to do work on the board.

There used to also be an idea of target saturation, e.g. go for broke on one thing. If you have volume of high T vehicles, you could conceivably overwhelm the opponent's anti tank and increase the chances of getting several across the board. I just think a Battlewagon is more efficient in that if one gets to the enemy's deployment zone, it can actually kill something.

I just basically came to the realization that a BW with a rolla is roughly the cost of two trukks. And it does pretty much the same thing (e.g. get from point A to point B), is roughly as durable and has multi damage close combat capability that Trukks lack. That's all.

Here's the list I'm going to test over the next week or so.



I used Jidmah's list from a few pages back as a base and tweaked it to suit my own personal tastes and schemes.

My thought process is that I want to avoid traffic jams as much as possible and everything wants to either get into the enemy's face, or into the middle of the board, so things are going to be clumping up with all of the big bases.

The boys all start in the trukks, so they have a reasonably small footprint to start. They want to get moving and challenge objectives with ObSec.
The kommandos all start upfield, so they arent clogging the deployment zone and can be very close to the opponent's in some cases. They want to put inital pressure on and get some turn one charges.
The stormboys and koptas can start in deepstrike, so they aren't clogging, and can come in to steal objectives and chase away/cripple their respective squishy targets.
The bikeboss zooms upfield and tries to annihilate something, he is the resident murder missile.
The squigboss and his cronies are similar to the bikeboss, they want to be pointed at something that either really needs to die or something that I otherwise don't have an answer for and need to drown it in MWs.
The trike tries to snipe characters, fish for CP's, Speedwaaagh, and for eating smller units that need mopping up.
The Scrapjets do Scrapjet stuff.

I wasn't sure about the Snazzwagons, but they are a respectable amount of anti-infantry firepower without eating up lots of points or taking up a lot of board space like Warbikers would do. If I don't need the anti-infantry and need more anti-tank then I can replace them with Shokkjump Dragstas. Not sure what I would do if I needed more anti-infantry, I'm hoping that the melee oomph of the list will handle that.

I didn't go as hard as Jidmah on the relics just to have another CP for our horrendously expensive stratagems.

I already own a fair amount of the models needed, and I'll be proxying everything else, so anything is game on really. Please let me know what you all think.

 TedNugent wrote:
Now that transports are a thing again, what are thoughts on using a battlewagon as opposed to a trukk.

BW with a rolla is 135 and has T7 with 16 wounds behind a 3+.

That's less than two Trukks and has double the transport capacity. Why not use this instead.

My problem with a Trukk is that it literally can't do anything other than tie up a unit in assault once down the board. It's nothing more than a box with wounds and some movement speed when embarked. Without Trukk Boyz being a rule and limited to one unit, why bother for a big shoota when I can get a deff rolla instead that will actually do work?

I hate battlewagon as open topped transports. They were good in older editions when AV14-12-10 was much better than AV10-10-10 but at T7 two trukks are actually much tougher to kill than a single wagon. It's 20W vs 16 typically since against dedicated anti tank there's really no difference between T7 3+ and T6 4+, and trukks are two bodies. They can also be in two different places which means it's easier to have something valuable in range and at the same time if the enemy melta squad targets one trukk the other one will likely be outside juicy range. Not to mention that a BW eats up an heavy support choice while trukks are dedicated transports.

There's really no reason to prefer an open topped BW to a couple of trukks. Having two vehicles instead of one also helps for secondaries like Engage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:


I just basically came to the realization that a BW with a rolla is roughly the cost of two trukks. And it does pretty much the same thing (e.g. get from point A to point B), is roughly as durable and has multi damage close combat capability that Trukks lack. That's all.

Pay 15 points and that wagon is T8, which makes some difference against lots of weapons.

"Cheap" wagons died with 7th edition. BW without 'ard case and rolla doesn't make any sense.

As someone who has constantly fought CWE I've greatly preferred trukks to wagons.

A wagon is just a target to doom and jinx. You can't doom and jinx TWO trucks.

Divided targets has a different kind of durability, and injured wagons don't really fight too well. they are also harder to hide behind terrain.

did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Here's the list I'm going to test over the next week or so.

Spoiler:

Outrider Detachment (Deathskulls, -3 CP) - 1010 points
Warboss on Bike - Da Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin' (-1 CP) - 115
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Deffkoptas x5 - 250
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Megatrakk Scrapjet - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - 90

Patrol Detachment (Snakebites, -2 CP) - 445 points
Beastboss on Squigosaur - Beasthide Mantle (-1 CP) - 145
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65
Nob on Smasha Squig - 65

Patrol Detachment (Deathskulls) - 535 points
Deffkilla Wartrike - Warlord, Opportunist - 120
Kommandos x10 - Breacher Ram, Bomb Squig, Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 115
Boys x10 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw, Trukk Boys - 100
Trukk - 70
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65
Stormboys x5 - Boss Nob with Power Klaw - 65

Total - 1990 points,

I used Jidmah's list from a few pages back as a base and tweaked it to suit my own personal tastes and schemes.

My thought process is that I want to avoid traffic jams as much as possible and everything wants to either get into the enemy's face, or into the middle of the board, so things are going to be clumping up with all of the big bases.

The boys all start in the trukks, so they have a reasonably small footprint to start. They want to get moving and challenge objectives with ObSec.
The kommandos all start upfield, so they arent clogging the deployment zone and can be very close to the opponent's in some cases. They want to put inital pressure on and get some turn one charges.
The stormboys and koptas can start in deepstrike, so they aren't clogging, and can come in to steal objectives and chase away/cripple their respective squishy targets.
The bikeboss zooms upfield and tries to annihilate something, he is the resident murder missile.
The squigboss and his cronies are similar to the bikeboss, they want to be pointed at something that either really needs to die or something that I otherwise don't have an answer for and need to drown it in MWs.
The trike tries to snipe characters, fish for CP's, Speedwaaagh, and for eating smller units that need mopping up.
The Scrapjets do Scrapjet stuff.

I wasn't sure about the Snazzwagons, but they are a respectable amount of anti-infantry firepower without eating up lots of points or taking up a lot of board space like Warbikers would do. If I don't need the anti-infantry and need more anti-tank then I can replace them with Shokkjump Dragstas. Not sure what I would do if I needed more anti-infantry, I'm hoping that the melee oomph of the list will handle that.

I didn't go as hard as Jidmah on the relics just to have another CP for our horrendously expensive stratagems.

I already own a fair amount of the models needed, and I'll be proxying everything else, so anything is game on really. Please let me know what you all think.

Interesting approach, many good points. It's definitely a list that needs evolving and I'm going to look out for the traffic jam issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:
did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!

Sixth image in this collection:
https://imgur.com/a/GI7nqNO

 Jidmah wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:
did the exact wording for the whaaagh! has been leaked? been rummaging through imgur but couldnt find it. the community article also didnt really specify on HOW and WHO (which keywords) can call a whaaagh!

Sixth image in this collection:
https://imgur.com/a/GI7nqNO

Thanks! sooooo a warboss on bike can call a speedwaagh right? come to think of it he has the warboss keyword too... but i'll guess he will loose it when the FAQ drops

44-98 against drukhari. I got annihilated.

I had not enough firepower to disembark his infrantery, so I went like crazy but didn't success.

6 squads of 11-14 boyz with a warboss and kff. 8 Warbikers in objectives. Trukkboyz with meganobz (still don't know if they will permit it) and megaboss, 4 KMK, 3x5 stormboyz, 3x5 kommandos and stuff

His Fight Last of incubi and his Fight First of everything just annihilated my army. That's all I have to say. His dark lances were not so powerful, I degraded all his reapers so he was shooting so bad. I was just unable to respond in combat due that I was dying before fighting

Kebabcito wrote:
44-98 against drukhari. I got annihilated.

I had not enough firepower to disembark his infrantery, so I went like crazy but didn't success.

6 squads of 11-14 boyz with a warboss and kff. 8 Warbikers in objectives. Trukkboyz with meganobz (still don't know if they will permit it) and megaboss, 4 KMK, 3x5 stormboyz, 3x5 kommandos and stuff

His Fight Last of incubi and his Fight First of everything just annihilated my army. That's all I have to say. His dark lances were not so powerful, I degraded all his reapers so he was shooting so bad. I was just unable to respond in combat due that I was dying before fighting

It sucks that our best relic, one that could counter all the fight last BS you see these days, is klan locked to one of our worst kulturs now (evil suns).

Y'all might have thought of this already, but the blood axes strat that allows you to place units in strategic reserves is actually pretty useful. Those units can stay in reserves until rounds 4 or 5 if they wanted. Could be useful with MSU stormboyz/kommandos for engage/octarious.

Warboss on Bike currently has both Warboss and Speedboss, for some weird reason.
Thing is, they cant really remove the Warboss tag unless the core codex also gets fixed to mention "Speedboss" instead of specifically "Wartrike"

The 1 boss per detachment calls out "Warboss" and "Wartrike" not "Speedboss"
Currently, Bikerboss is affected because he has both but the moment they remove it and 'forget' to update the 1boss per detachment rule technically the bikerboss is now unaffected by that dumb rule.

Which would immediately get fixed once someone tries to use it but thats not the point lol

there is a difference between understanding that suffering damage to durability before dealing any damage is a potential issue for a damage-dealing unit, and doomering that anything will die if enough damage is dealt to it...

Squighog boyz are a turn 2 tempo unit. 99% of the time if you do charge them turn 1 your opponent handed you that charge by moving up and you went second. They will take 1-2 turns of firepower before doing anything, as opposed to Trukk Boyz/Nobz, Stormboyz, or shooting units that can operate on a one-turn tempo setup, or transported units like a manz missile that are more likely to survive to deliver a T2 tempo punch.

 the_scotsman wrote:
there is a difference between understanding that suffering damage to durability before dealing any damage is a potential issue for a damage-dealing unit, and doomering that anything will die if enough damage is dealt to it...

Squighog boyz are a turn 2 tempo unit. 99% of the time if you do charge them turn 1 your opponent handed you that charge by moving up and you went second. They will take 1-2 turns of firepower before doing anything, as opposed to Trukk Boyz/Nobz, Stormboyz, or shooting units that can operate on a one-turn tempo setup, or transported units like a manz missile that are more likely to survive to deliver a T2 tempo punch.

And don’t forget Kommandos, who can also turn 1 charge (well if you don’t get fethed by stuff that forces you to deploy further)

I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.

Okay, so, in regards to the killiest boss. I will engage in this silly discussion and I have two candidates.

Someone suggested goff squigosaur with headwoppas killchoppa and brutal but kunnin'. I think you're right. I think he actually blows Mozrog clean out of the water.

The math is incredibly complex, but I think this is right.



This gets even more filthy with Da Bigger Dey Is or No Mukkin' About. Da Bigger Dey Is would increase your damage by 2 per unsaved wound, No Mukkin' About would double your autohit procs.

Runner up I think is warboss with Da Killa Klaw and an attack squig with Goff clan and Brutal But Kunnin'.



Both of these options are inferior to Morzog in survivability. However, they are cheaper, with their choice of any free relics, can take any clan (Goff, obviously), and with this selection of relics and BBK I think their pure damage output is on the level of Da Biggest Boss with BBK and DKK from the 8th edition codex.

Obviously, depending on whether they FAQ Brutal But Kunnin' to limit you to new attacks with the same weapon.

I am definitely not re-doing the math for Toughness 8, but I genuinely believe a Beastboss on Squigosaur with Headwoppas Killchoppa and BBK could stomp a generic knight with the "Da Bigger Dey Is" strategem in one turn. With the 5 base attacks alone that's 9 damage on average before the procs start rolling. And you get more BBK procs for each attack that fails to reach the damage step (e.g. higher toughness, invulnerable saves, etc). If the Knight swung first you could use Orks is Never Beaten.

Since everyone is going on the buggy bandwagon, I tried giving it a go with the models I have ready (trying to strictly only include stuff that I have painted ideally)



Any thoughts? I was wondering if the Deff Dreadz and Kommandos don't synergize enough, or if I have too much CP left over given that our strats aren't all that hot now.

tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.

Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.

Against Drukhari, with the leadership nonsense and number of attacks/wyches fighting twice etc I still think 3x10 is better than 1x30. 30 kommandos is 30 pts more than 30 boyz.

The match up has issues no doubt, but I don't think blobs are the answer to anything with this codex unfortunately.

I played 6x11 boyz. He had more troubles dealing with them, but they ended dying anyways.

KMK were OK, they knocked out some raiders and stuff, but that's all.

Warbikers never did a single hit in melee due that incubi killed them even being me the one who charges,

Succubus killed my 5 meganobz.

Deffdread was just a joke tank removed in 30 seconds (1 dark lance and then shooting from the embarked models).

I'm not expecting to improve the final result with a 9th edition list. 2 Squiggbuggies will help a lot, but not enough to change anything. I cannot build 9 KMK in a tournament just in case I play against drukhari, and then losing against everything else

shabadoit wrote:
Against Drukhari, with the leadership nonsense and number of attacks/wyches fighting twice etc I still think 3x10 is better than 1x30. 30 kommandos is 30 pts more than 30 boyz.

The match up has issues no doubt, but I don't think blobs are the answer to anything with this codex unfortunately.

Of course, what I meant to say that the list lost the option to bring big solid rocks completely, because boys simply aren't that anymore.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.

Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.

Agreed. It's also straight up 50/50 on the roll off to not lose a bunch of assets for nothing.

I think in general raiders are going to cause Orks absolute headaches. There's basically nothing in the codex that really efficiently kills a raider once they pop lightning fast. You need to force it out and hopefully shoot another one.

Edit: I will say this can be done safely via the Blood Axe redeploy strat, but the efficiency lost is absolutely nuts.

You go down to like 17 wounds instead of 27 vs T4 -- I forgot to add the wound roll to the above (you wound on 2s with the distraction grot). I'm not sure it's enough to punch to be viable without Goffs. In order to regain the same sort of efficiency, you have to add 5 more kommandos and they have to make engagement range.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
I have this distinct feeling Orks will have some simple lists that will absolutely crush people if you win the roll off.

30+ Goff Kommandos in your face turn 1, which can be backed up by a Wartrike and even possibly a couple units of trukk boys, can lead to an absolute blitzkrieg of an army that will feel unfair but really just blows if you lose the roll off.

But like 10 Goff kommands under a waaagh and distraction grot wound T4 on 2s.. leading to like 33 wounds.

A bit nutters. I also think it'll have matchups where you just more or less auto lose too, but I bet we're gonna see a lot of salt shortly.

Honestly, when I look at all these kommadoz+boyz+stormboyz+warbike lists I wonder what they heck they plan to do about drukhari. You lack the firepower to dismount units from their ships with such lists even if you go first and drukhari have enough damage output to just wipe your entire army off the board. Without big blobs of boyz acting as solid rocks, I don't see this being a build that can tackle any match-up.

Agreed. It's also straight up 50/50 on the roll off to not lose a bunch of assets for nothing.

I think in general raiders are going to cause Orks absolute headaches. There's basically nothing in the codex that really efficiently kills a raider once they pop lightning fast. You need to force it out and hopefully shoot another one.

Edit: I will say this can be done safely via the Blood Axe redeploy strat, but the efficiency lost is absolutely nuts.

You go down to like 17 wounds instead of 27 vs T4 -- I forgot to add the wound roll to the above (you wound on 2s with the distraction grot). I'm not sure it's enough to punch to be viable without Goffs. In order to regain the same sort of efficiency, you have to add 5 more kommandos and they have to make engagement range.

Yeah, DE look like they will be difficult to handle for the alpha strike list. I'm honestly just hoping that the Squig missile and the Bikerboss will get up the board quickly enough to take out the Raiders, and that I can otherwise just keep throwing enough shots at them in the hopes that they stick. I also have plenty of MW output from the Squig missile, bomb squigs and the Scrapjet nose rams that I'm hoping that I don't have to worry about Lightning Fast too much.

I kind of expect my Kommandos to get wiped off the board early every game, but if they can eat enough firepower that something more valuable isn't being shot off the board then I'll be happy. They should be reasonably tough to shift (for Ork infantry) if I can get them into cover.

Doing some quick math (which might be wrong), the Snazzwagons actually end up being my best shooting option against Raiders with LS, and the damage output is absolute trash.

Writing this, I've also realised that if you have two individual Snazzwagons, you can give one the Souped Up Speshul and the other More Dakka to get more shots out of both without massive differences in the output between the two

I´m bullish on Warbikerz. They´re a cheap, large footprint, fast, objective sitting, fire platform with better durability pointswise than Boyz. I don´t necessarily see them as an alpha strike unit although they definitely are in that domain in a Speedwaagh!. Yet can be a sacrificial unit due to being so cheap.

On the Biker topic I really like that they gave the Deffkilla 5++ to make it an option against the Biker Warboss. Many times you just want maximum killing power from the Warlord, but as a primarily a BA player I often want a broader role for him. E.g. his huge base is a neat tool for board control.